Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => Roleplaying Discussion => Topic started by: Doublepalli on September 11, 2017, 09:43:38 PM

Title: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Doublepalli on September 11, 2017, 09:43:38 PM
Currently, they can be rare, but I am curious how they play a role in Zalanthas.

Do you hate them? Fear them? Why? Should they be hated? Feared? At least in the sands?
Are they to be treated like those filthy c-elves?
Do you trust them enough to trade?
What would the average person think or know of desert elves?
How do you think they should be portrayed? How do you think the world should treat desert elves?
What do they contribute to the game world?


Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Riev on September 11, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Currently, they can be rare, but I am curious how they play a role in Zalanthas.

Do you hate them? Fear them? Why? Should they be hated? Feared? At least in the sands?
Are they to be treated like those filthy c-elves?
Do you trust them enough to trade?
What would the average person think or know of desert elves?
How do you think they should be portrayed? How do you think the world should treat desert elves?
What do they contribute to the game world?

It depends on the tribe, but for the most part I don't know how many PCs can/should be able to differentiate between which tribe is which.

They're not to be trusted. They're better at being elves than a city elf, and they don't -need- your coin.

I think the average person knows there are tribal elves that live in the desert, but what they do out there is anyone's guess.

I tend to think of them as semi-iso roles that want to explore the tribal themes of the game in an environment mostly removed from the MCB of the cities. You are playing in a group of people whom you trust, utmost, and know you have their back as they have yours, living in an unforgiving wasteland among other groups of people that you do NOT trust to hold your pack-reins while you get a snake out of your moccasins.

I think in times of yore, they're contributed a LOT to the gameworld, between the Sorcerer Shattered and the Heru Kija. There was a lot of stuff that went on during those times that was really pretty great, and didn't feel like you were going to get shunted out because a Templar in a Red Robe will come along and just lay waste to the threat. They've defended against Thralls, they've kept the Mantis in check, and been battling the gith for as long as anyone can remember. Most of the threats against the city of Allanak are because the tribal elves proved too much of a challenge.

Unfortunately, its also a great challenge to staff them, and get people to play them. Their place in this new Allanak-central gameworld we have is not well defined, and only one is capable or willing to trade. With other current events, they might not even do that. So they are this anomaly of elves, living in the desert. In the game world, they're great. In the player world... its like... 'why'?
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Kankfly on September 14, 2017, 10:27:59 PM
So they are this anomaly of elves, living in the desert. In the game world, they're great. In the player world... its like... 'why'?

I just want to chime in saying that just because you don't see plots happening as a player doesn't mean they don't exist.

The plots you mentioned in your examples are major, multi-clanned plots. It is like saying there's no point in Allanak because there are no major, multi-clanned plots going on in there. But we all know that is not true.

There is a common misconception that just because you, as a player, has never seen certain things happening, doesn't mean they aren't happening. They might be happening, but you probably never got to know about it.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Dar on September 14, 2017, 10:47:16 PM
It depends on the tribe, but for the most part I don't know how many PCs can/should be able to differentiate between which tribe is which.
They're not to be trusted. They're better at being elves than a city elf, and they don't -need- your coin.
I think the average person knows there are tribal elves that live in the desert, but what they do out there is anyone's guess.
I tend to think of them as semi-iso roles that want to explore the tribal themes of the game in an environment mostly removed from the MCB of the cities. You are playing in a group of people whom you trust, utmost, and know you have their back as they have yours, living in an unforgiving wasteland among other groups of people that you do NOT trust to hold your pack-reins while you get a snake out of your moccasins.
I think in times of yore, they're contributed a LOT to the gameworld, between the Sorcerer Shattered and the Heru Kija. There was a lot of stuff that went on during those times that was really pretty great, and didn't feel like you were going to get shunted out because a Templar in a Red Robe will come along and just lay waste to the threat. They've defended against Thralls, they've kept the Mantis in check, and been battling the gith for as long as anyone can remember. Most of the threats against the city of Allanak are because the tribal elves proved too much of a challenge.

I have a problem with the bolded part of this post.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Jihelu on September 14, 2017, 10:58:10 PM
If you have a city elf and a desert elf and you tell them to run a race, that desert elf is going to win everytime.
If you think about how much of the main points of elves is 'run good' such to the point that they REFUSE to ride mounts, then yes. City elves suck compared to desert elves.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: whitt on September 14, 2017, 11:24:21 PM
If you have a city elf and a desert elf and you tell them to run a race, that desert elf is going to win everytime.

Well... unless the cElf drills the dElf with a tainted blade.  That's what I'd do.

Quote from: TheNatureBoy
Win if you can.  Lose if you must.  Always Cheat.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Jihelu on September 14, 2017, 11:30:28 PM
If you have a city elf and a desert elf and you tell them to run a race, that desert elf is going to win everytime.

Well... unless the cElf drills the dElf with a tainted blade.  That's what I'd do.

Quote from: TheNatureBoy
Win if you can.  Lose if you must.  Always Cheat.
I didn't say they had to play fair.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Doublepalli on September 15, 2017, 01:31:16 AM
The way I compare c-elves to d-elves is this:

You may have a seat at this council, (as an elf), but we do not grant you the rank of master.

C-elves are inferior to d-elves in every way just about.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: evilcabbage on September 15, 2017, 02:08:11 AM
that would work if they guy they granted a seat at the council but didn't make a Master wasn't -leagues- above all of them in terms of raw power.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Doublepalli on September 15, 2017, 03:17:42 AM
I think Mace Windu woulda kicked his butt if he wasn't backstabbed! But that's how c-elves work right?
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: evilcabbage on September 15, 2017, 03:20:57 AM
i want to nerd out on you so bad but all i can say is the two are the same race who have simply adapted to their settings.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on September 15, 2017, 04:11:58 AM
Last time I checked Delfs could taint blades and use them just as well as Celfs. I'm not sure what all this discussion about City elves cheating more than Desert elves is. Desert elves have all the advantages AND they cheat for the benefit of their tribe.

Anybody who thinks a Desert Elf is played straight laced clearly never played as a desert elf much or just didn't portray it properly.

City elves are the under fed and abused cousin of the Desert Elf. When you play a city elf you are playing a handicapped regular elf.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Armaddict on September 15, 2017, 05:46:24 AM
Quote
City elves are the under fed and abused cousin of the Desert Elf. When you play a city elf you are playing a handicapped regular elf.

Not really true, but at this point it probably should be situated to be true, but this is more a symptom of not letting C-Elves to be in tribes even though they're supposed to be in tribes.  Keep in mind that by clan documentation, a lot of city-elf tribes are desert-elf tribes who migrated INTO the city for greener pastures long ago, and the biggest difference between the two is that we allow the isolated part of that population (i.e. desert elves) to have their documented support structure, while within the city we view that as an unfair advantage for player of elves (which I disagree with).

Once you hit that level, the 'differences' between desert elves and city elves become much more pronounced (i.e. How two, three, four, five, six smaller tribes in close contact quibble or ally in a city scenario) but the 'power' of them becomes absolutely adapted to their environment and their current social standing with each other.

Elves are oppressed, not little pariahs of social injustice that are kept weak and whimpering.  That's a player perspective.  Viewing it as a constant social struggle where only one side can possibly win open war as it stands is far more interesting than 'all da elfs are poor and weak an' so they steal'.

Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Armaddict on September 15, 2017, 05:53:52 AM
More on topic...

Desert elves are the last (currently) chance at antagonists to the Allanaki structure/dominance.  City elves and Desert elves should unite in a race war.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Riev on September 15, 2017, 09:14:07 AM
With recent events, I personally believe that delves don't have power or sway the way they used to, to have ANY chance at antagonism to anyone.

Personally, I think its time they start stealing elf children like the new Tan Muark to keep their families strong.

In an OOC manner, while I agree that things are and do happen with them, it does not change the fact that what they do seems to have little effect.
There is a common misconception that just because you, as a player, has never seen certain things happening, doesn't mean they aren't happening. They might be happening, but you probably never got to know about it.
I'm all for that, Kankfly, but if there is an entire sphere of the game with "things happening" but "I probably never got to know about it", that only reinforces my position that they are more of an isolated role, which for a lot of players is a difficult position to be in if they enjoy Armageddon as a social game. I know things have happened, do happen, and are happening, but you may as well tell me you're playing 1 hour a week in the Rocky Badlands playing in a virtual tribe of muls as their half-elf slave.

Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: palomar on September 15, 2017, 09:57:30 AM
Which events, Riev? I'm not sure I understand what you refer to. Desert elves haven't truly been antagonists since the Red Fangs were around six RL years ago. The SLK, SR and ATV can all be antagonists within their loosely defined territories but it should also be noted that two of those tribes have been affected by how magick is handled in the game these days, and the Gith War affected the Tablelands tribes in various ways as well.

Regardless, d-elf and human tribals have always been more or less iso-roles. It's just part of the concept, and I don't consider it a problem. There is less attention on the Tablelands with Tuluk (and associated clans/tribes) closed, and the Tan Muark closed. Doesn't make playing a desert elf obsolete, in my book. Depends on what you'd want from that kind of role, I guess.

With recent events, I personally believe that delves don't have power or sway the way they used to, to have ANY chance at antagonism to anyone.

Personally, I think its time they start stealing elf children like the new Tan Muark to keep their families strong.

In an OOC manner, while I agree that things are and do happen with them, it does not change the fact that what they do seems to have little effect.
There is a common misconception that just because you, as a player, has never seen certain things happening, doesn't mean they aren't happening. They might be happening, but you probably never got to know about it.
I'm all for that, Kankfly, but if there is an entire sphere of the game with "things happening" but "I probably never got to know about it", that only reinforces my position that they are more of an isolated role, which for a lot of players is a difficult position to be in if they enjoy Armageddon as a social game. I know things have happened, do happen, and are happening, but you may as well tell me you're playing 1 hour a week in the Rocky Badlands playing in a virtual tribe of muls as their half-elf slave.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Dahlia on September 15, 2017, 10:34:41 AM
It's so good to see you, Palomar!   8)
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Riev on September 15, 2017, 10:43:15 AM
Specifically, I was referring to the gith war and the decimation that was received on all sides. Without going into specifics, the numbers and influence aren't what they used to be, and old treaties and likely-verbal agreements were broken.

The Tablelands/Desert Elves/Tribal People sphere isn't like the Tuluki Sphere, or the Luir's Sphere, where there is some sort of ingrained reason for trade/antagonism/interaction with the other city-living spheres. I have almost no experience with desert elves, so I'm not saying they're bad or need work or anything.

The OP was about what their place is in the world, and right now their place seems to be even more isolated than ever, and I assume it means little interaction from the playerbase, and I don't know if there's a "Tribal" team that staffs over these people or if its just "Single player Armageddon w/ multiplayer options"
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: palomar on September 15, 2017, 11:31:34 AM
Specifically, I was referring to the gith war and the decimation that was received on all sides. Without going into specifics, the numbers and influence aren't what they used to be, and old treaties and likely-verbal agreements were broken.

The Tablelands/Desert Elves/Tribal People sphere isn't like the Tuluki Sphere, or the Luir's Sphere, where there is some sort of ingrained reason for trade/antagonism/interaction with the other city-living spheres. I have almost no experience with desert elves, so I'm not saying they're bad or need work or anything.

The OP was about what their place is in the world, and right now their place seems to be even more isolated than ever, and I assume it means little interaction from the playerbase, and I don't know if there's a "Tribal" team that staffs over these people or if its just "Single player Armageddon w/ multiplayer options"

Gotcha.

I'd say there are opportunities to break the isolation when it comes to Luir's, although I'm not sure about the extent of the interactions and real plot cooperation opportunities. It's the same for the human tribals, but since they're humans they're usually not as distrusted as the elves are.

Fairly isolated in terms of plot and deeper connections with the rest of the game world, yes. Tribes are part of the tribes and independents team (including the T'zai Byn), so there is staff support.

It's so good to see you, Palomar!   8)

Likewise!
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: nauta on September 15, 2017, 11:43:58 AM
Having played a senior role in a delf tribe during the gith war, I can say that it was pretty hard to get interaction/interest out of Allanak.  Luir's, sure.  But even the human tribes have a better chance of rallying Allanaki interest in a big plot than delves.

That said, delves are awesome and, yeah, a little bit iso, but it's a really fun role, and I'll probably play one every third PC or so.

ETA: I think the docs and world itself sort of preclude any big scale plot between delves and Nak.  The delves are not like Tuluk -- there is no chance they'd survive if Tek got upset at them, so viewing them as the 'antagonist' to Nak doesn't make too much sense.  As to being 'allies':  Delves are elves, so there's little reason to want to help them if you are Allanak, because, unlike with Luir's, even if the elves fall, Nak will probably still stand against whatever killed them.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on September 15, 2017, 11:44:22 AM

Elves are oppressed, not little pariahs of social injustice that are kept weak and whimpering.  That's a player perspective.  Viewing it as a constant social struggle where only one side can possibly win open war as it stands is far more interesting than 'all da elfs are poor and weak an' so they steal'.

I wasn't really trying to portray that they steal because they're poor and weak. Desert elves do this and they're anything but. I'm simply going along with the only IC reason that desert elves are treated like an entirely different species regarding statistics. Celves don't steal because they're poor and weak, they are just poor and weak and also happen to steal.

As far as a race war goes, or a threat to Allanak, the largest elf clan is just over 400 vnpcs. The ones we can play  are roughly 200-150 vnpcs. I wish the Celves would just do it themselves. Iirc, there's a huge population inside the walls.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Riev on September 15, 2017, 11:53:27 AM
The struggle with the Celf population inside the walls is that rather than a tribe of 400 elves, there are 100 tribes of four elves (don't math me). Elves don't even trust other elves, unless they're family or Proven, so it would take something very large to unit so many city elves behind a common cause that wouldn't almost immediately crumble into distrust and betrayal.

No elf steals because they're poor and weak. They steal because the other person can't stop them. If they deserved to have their coin, they wouldn't have lost it so easily. If they deserve their new armor, they wouldn't have taken it off to fuck some independent whore. Elves are superior (in mindset), and so anything they want, belongs to them unless someone else proves why it doesn't.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Doublepalli on September 15, 2017, 12:34:03 PM
Then there is the fact players are more likely to try and treat d-elves like c-elves, which makes 0 sense as don't desert elf tribes have certain virtual reputations to uphold?

Aren't they known to be dangerous in the sands?

Or is it just, filthy elves through and through?

How is your common everyday supposed to view d-elves, outside of personal run-ins with them?
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Jihelu on September 15, 2017, 12:36:48 PM
I'm still of the firm opinion that we should either:
A: Give city elves desert run and just emphasize that without a unified outdoor tribe, yes make it canon that city elves are basically tribeless fucks that should rely on the city for their petty social interactions so they don't go insane and so they can steal.
B: Give city elves desert run and still have them tribeless with a virtual tribe.
Or my favorite.
C: Copy the shit out of Dark Sun, every city elf is now a member of a major desert elf tribe and is simply staying in the city to sell shit with the occasional tribeless elf who lost his family. Give them delf run.

You may see a pattern here...
Give them delf run.

From an IC perspective my own tribal characters have viewed city elves as lesser and shittier compared to their sand running cousins. They barely get any support from their 'family'. They wind up dead for thievery every sixteen seconds.

You fuck with a delf? You have four or more fucking 8 foot tall humanoids outrunning your mount in the desert, shooting tainted arrows at your ass.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: whitt on September 15, 2017, 12:38:58 PM
Having played a senior role in a delf tribe during the gith war, I can say that it was pretty hard to get interaction/interest out of Allanak.  Luir's, sure.  But even the human tribes have a better chance of rallying Allanaki interest in a big plot than delves.

To be fair, this may have something to do with the interaction with dElfs whenever they don't want something from Allanak generally being in the form of

Code: [Select]
An arrow flies in from the north.
And knowing that as soon as anything went wrong the dElfs would leave their "slow" allies to rot and/or if things didn't go wrong, the thanks would be delivered in betrayal not long, if not immediately, after.

In short, why would anyone in Allanak care to help someone from a part of the world that (a) holds no bearing whatsoever on their survival or advancement, (b) is generally an enemy and never an ally,  and (c) resides in FlyOverCountry, except you don't even really need to FlyOver?

Answer the WIFM questions and you'll have a good start on how to get the rest of the Known to care about what's going on.

Helpful Hint: If the answer is "after it kills us it will come for you"?  Allanak has historically proven to be pretty Ok with that BigBad breaking itself on you first.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Doublepalli on September 15, 2017, 12:43:45 PM

From an IC perspective my own tribal characters have viewed city elves as lesser and shittier compared to their sand running cousins. They barely get any support from their 'family'. They wind up dead for thievery every sixteen seconds.

You fuck with a delf? You have four or more fucking 8 foot tall humanoids outrunning your mount in the desert, shooting tainted arrows at your ass.

This right here! But then you have the non-tribal characters..and it's odd, because people do try and PK d-elves MORE often than you'd think. (speaking from experience) In their own 'stomping grounds' aka, the sands.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Molten Heart on September 15, 2017, 12:57:22 PM
It'd be good if Allanak had different families/tribes players could have their elf characters self affiliate with, this would give them more social opportunities other than being made a victim of society. They'd still be the brunt of the social order, they just wouldn't be alone and on their own while it happened.

It'd also be good if desert travel were easier for city elves than currently, to the point they are able to travel in groups without inconveniencing their riding traveling companions too much (without requiring special gear or equipment). It's already going to be dangerous out there, and if for some reason it's more dangerous because some city elf is running around, maybe that's good?
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Riev on September 15, 2017, 02:10:56 PM
Yes, but this is about the DESERT elves and THEIR place in the world.

Territorial, untrusting of others, MOST have little to no interest in trade with the outside world. They have their tribal politics but generally... they're just like human tribals without the sense of cooperation with others.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on September 15, 2017, 02:13:08 PM
Originally I was going to post how even with Desert run there'd still be (I assume) a vast statistical gulf, but I'm even okay with that so long as Desert run is granted. At least it would make Celf bynners less of a running (heh) joke. And at 120 movement points how much trouble can you actually get up to?
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on September 15, 2017, 02:17:07 PM
Yes, but this is about the DESERT elves and THEIR place in the world.

Territorial, untrusting of others, MOST have little to no interest in trade with the outside world. They have their tribal politics but generally... they're just like human tribals without the sense of cooperation with others.

I'd say they fill Strange role where they have to posture to maintain that they are scary xenophobes, but also necessary warriors and trading partners. Sadly it's often easier to just ignore them than reap whatever benefits cultivating a relationship may be.

Sorry forthe double post.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Riev on September 15, 2017, 02:20:35 PM
For a non-tribal person, there is almost zero reason to ever think about or have any interest in the tribal elves and their territories. There is one area that sometimes people might care about, but in general... they're not gatekeepers to any sought after materials, resources, or technologies. They can posture, and be brutally effective at keeping their territory safe (Believe me. 12 angry warriors can't do a thing against three elves in their favored terrain.)

However, there just aren't many reasons to include them. They're not BAD, they don't specifically need to be 'fixed', it just is a nearly different game and experience.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on September 15, 2017, 02:33:09 PM
That's true, Reiv. I feel like, more than anything Delves are hindered by their territory. I've noticed too that vying for further control or resources for your tribe is encouraged right up until you actually try to do anything about it.

It makes no sense to me that elves would live in a shithole like the Tablelands when the scrublands and Mantis Valley are right next door. They should at least be TRYING to push into more lush areas like that.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Molten Heart on September 15, 2017, 02:43:41 PM
There are many arbitrary limiters put in place in the game to maintain stability in the world. While some of them may seem silly, or be explained with bad reasoning, they serve to provide a solid basis for order in the game world. It seems one of these limiters is roping off the tablelands and saying this is where tribal elves live, at least the ones in playable tribes (there are desert elf tribes that also exist outside of the tablelands but they aren't playable options.) So while the opportunities for desert elves are wide and only limited by the resistance of others in their environment, it seems the focus of the game is intended to be Allanak, leaving tribal roles, and desert elves, as iso roles or a kind of side show to the main show, Allanak.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Riev on September 15, 2017, 02:44:44 PM
I have a feeling the Tablelands/Pah provide exactly enough resources for them to maintain their status and camps. There's probably water sources there that aren't in the scrub. The scrub was also a long-held Muarki area, with constant intrusion and issues from Tuluk.

I think it makes sense that they would have learned to live in the Tablelands, there just isn't like... a reason for trade or interaction. There are a few reasons I've gone into the Pah on a non-elf, and many might be able to guess the reasons, but its not like... a necessity.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Doublepalli on September 15, 2017, 02:51:08 PM
Even with the current open d-elf clan that's known for trading anything and with everyone, all over the known - Why would you, when you can get almost all the same materials from a human ranger, than an elf thats ganna 'trick' you?
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: surveyvon on September 15, 2017, 03:30:09 PM
I'll take a stab at this.

Desert elves and their tribal cultures are extremely interesting. I find it hard to hate them based on this premise alone. That being said, given the mobility and tight-knit nature of desert elves, it's a scary prospect to mess with them because there's a thought in the back of my head that I'll be going up against an entire tribe. Depending on how badly they go out of their way to oppress you in the sands, some tribes are easier to hate than others.

Messing with a city elf feels straightforward because more often than not, you're only messing with one elf and not an entire tribe. Secondarily, a city elf feels pretty vulnerable out in the sands given the lack of a desert elf's running capabilities. I'd like to see city elves inherit some trait to support their pride regarding their legs. Possibly greatly increased resting speeds to support a more burst-oriented movement style that you'd expect to see in a city versus out in the desert.

Trading with desert elves is a compromise. You're invariably going to lose out something in the exchange but frequently the goods being traded are worth that little bit of pain. It's important that desert elves continue to hold goods and crafts that are desirable and not reproducible outside of those tribes. Traders are traders - they tend to be somewhat predatory even if they're human.

The average person's knowledge of desert elves is probably predicated by their geographic location and probably their occupation. I'm not experienced enough to have a desire to make strong claims here. Desert elves provide a type of "law" to the areas that they claim dominance over and it allows for interesting conflict opportunities. The way you treat them depends on how badly you can risk provoking their ire. If you're a hunter or grebber working in elf-prowled territory, you should think twice before pissing them off.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Dahlia on September 15, 2017, 05:40:17 PM
This thread makes me miss Blackwing so much.

*single tear*
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Jihelu on September 15, 2017, 09:07:28 PM
"Possibly greatly increased resting speeds to support a more burst-oriented movement style that you'd expect to see in a city versus out in the desert."

This is a great fucking idea.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Grapes on September 15, 2017, 11:16:38 PM
Ok, I'm noticing some, "Why would you even?..." in this thread, in regards to elves. The most glaring being "trade with one?"

Why would you trade with elves? Because when elves produce goods, they do so to deceive the environment and the mind to the utmost of their abilities. A city elf will try to sell you a rotten pile of putrid rags under the label "midden-heap camouflage"... and you know what, it just, might work. As a player, you know codedly that that's rinthi starter gear. As a character, this sort of stinky treasure may just help you elude justice in a time of need.

Elves aren't the only ones with pride, even the half-giant wearing a barrel on their head and saying "I'm a barrel!" has pride in their deceptive abilities... and that's why you'd possibly go out of your way, secretly (half-giants excluded), no doubt, to garner favor, trust, and barter with elves of either city or desert stripe. They're thieves, scandalous, murderers without code! Of course they are, which are the best reasons to make friends with them, not only do you want to not get knifed over your boots, you also want allies to call on when conventional routes fail you. You'd assume you're smart enough to make a good deal, even if you weren't.

EDIT: Look at it this way, by sheer numbers and strength overcoming adversity, without mobility, city elves are a completely different mindset in some rather important regards to desert elves. The only thing keeping them in check, from what I gather, is that they never are allowed to bypass the barriers needed to form the sort of large tribe thinking desert tribes take for granted, and thus, when too many elves try to scrabble together in the city it's met with disaster, particularly from the inside.

But if they suddenly got desert run and direction sense, and decided to take back the Pah?... well, let's just, not go there.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: Riev on September 16, 2017, 12:33:17 AM
em peers at the title of the thread

City Elves are on the Rotating GDB Cycle already. Desert Elves. The tribals, out there not even IN the city, the ones who make knives out the claws of animals you'll never hunt, and probably will never care to. The keepers of the wezers, the protectors of the Pah, fighting the nasty clawfeet since the day they were born just to maintain their quasi-simple life.

Some of them are territorial raiders. Some of them are political backstabbers. Some of them probably even like when their members have innate magickal abilities because it means they're favored, and can assist in guiding and defending the tribe from natural and unnatural threats.

Because they do not live where there are roads, they have honed themselves, their gear, and their boots to allow them to run for vast distances without tiring. Elves that have stayed in the cities and the walls for so long, lost this. Desert Elves probably pity them for this, assuming they chose to mingle with the warring roundears rather than worship whatever savage deities they do.

So. Their place is something very alien to "most" of the world. Its a great thing to experience, I think, what little of it I ever have, but I don't think its like "Log in, check the tavern, hang out with people, go watch an arena event" kind of living. Its "go out, hunt, bring back meat and water for the tribe, keep the gith at bay, make sure the roundears keep to their side of the Pah, and the Outsiders stay out entirely, visit the Pits for trade and rumors, make fun of their foolish indoor taverns, and then come back home to where everyone loves you, trusts you, and makes sure you have a safe place to lay your head at night" kind of place.
Title: Re: Desert Elves and their place in the world
Post by: LucildaHunta on September 16, 2017, 10:23:24 AM
I think Riev nailed it every time. They're sort of in a playability pickle. Add to that a lot of people play them as Claustrophobic/Cleithrophobic, which is in line with Dark Sun sources. It takes interaction a notch up on the difficulty scale, many players of Desert elves simply WON'T travel to a population center. In the very worst they'll literally freak out in a walled place and at best they're on the verge of a freak out because they're out of their element. Then add to that their history, they're what happens when you win Armageddon. They have their land, which they've fought hard for, they don't want outsiders there because humans in particular have a history of screwing EVERYTHING up, they really don't venture outside of their lands because...Why? There really isn't a resource they NEED or a thing they WANT because.....WHY? Conversely, there really isn't a reason for a non-elf to go there either because of wants and needs either. You could think of them as a third city state that....nobody has a reason to go to or interact with. It makes interactions feel forced and like you're throwing each other an RP bone. You have to want to play a desert elf and when you do, you're behind the eight ball, which makes them a revolving door.

To add to that problem Desert Elves have some serious limitations. Some clans open or closed, have a specific territory they stick to and the reasons for going outside of them are....limited. The reasons for coming to them are....limited. Which is all well and good, that's what they are...Desert Elves. But then they kind of come in two flavors. The raiding kind or the trading kind. One clan has become the defacto "protectors of the land" and the other are gypsies with pointy ears, that don't like you. If you go outside of the box, you're playing against the docs. We know the OOC feeling of being raided, if you don't though...there's an undercurrent of "Why aren't you....Oh I get it, you're a soft desert elf" If you're trading, somewhere in the back of your mind you're thinking "Do I really need that?" Chances are...you don't and that goes both ways. If you don't want to deal with them...you don't have to and they don't have to deal with you either. If you want to raid...think Red Fangs. If you want to trade...think Blackwing. Playing the middle really isn't all that easy, you have to want to play them and they're in a different world than everybody else.

If you use Blackwing as a reference, you're talking about a different game. They are a throwback to when the game was more action oriented and they won Armageddon. They have a great history and they give you all the feels of the type of game Armageddon once was, but it's not that type of game anymore. If you think Red Fangs, they're everything that's wrong with a particular play-style and ultimately a reminder of what could happen if you're all conflict all the time. I think they have a place in the world though, it's just not as accessible to many concepts or involving certain situations. The why question will always come up and the answer seems on the forced side of things. They have a story, it just doesn't seem to overlap with the current stories. It would take some very creative motivations and ideas to inject themselves into the world as it is. 

I think a clan or one of the current clans having a branch or ties in the city would spice things up and bridge the gap between city elf and country elf. Something like the Nightrunners from Darksun. A clan that has city ties and can operate in the city, but is based in the Tablelands. This might be a little overpowered for the game though, but it would put an interesting wrinkle on the Delf/Celf problem. Also, the docs don't really allow for that kind of thing. But it's something to think about, but as it is they truly are different mindset and play-style.