Fix it please.
Scrambling for purchase should not be like getting shot in the neck by an arrow.
Also, even at higher levels of climb with AI city elf agility, you still fail plenty even when carrying low weight. The criteria for success and failure is just not consistent at all.
I considering climbing something too risky to do unless you're certain a full fall won't kill you. So. Mostly for my half-giants.
Maybe its like crafting, where (Master) climb doesn't mean you rarely fail, it just means you make better use of climbing gear... but even with climbing spikes, gloves, and harnesses, the risk is just too great.
You just KNOW those mountains are where staff of old hid the coolest and most interesting things.
Quote from: Miradus on August 17, 2017, 01:54:30 PM
Fix it please.
Actually, having had experience with a lot of climbers, I like it how it is, especially with the newer changes about flee not fleeing up. There are definitely things you gotta learn, and I still wouldn't mind the ability to (based on climb check):
> assess down
This cliff looks very steep, and the drop appears to be about three leagues.
Right now the only way to figure this out is trial and (deadly) error or word of mouth.
Quote
Scrambling for purchase should not be like getting shot in the neck by an arrow.
Easy fix: make getting shot by arrows not do so much damage! More seriously, this is something that is a bit counterintuitive at first --- the advice I give in game is that sometimes the wall hurts more than the floor. However, there is an interesting dynamic here: if you know the fall will /kill/ your PC, the scramble is necessary. If you know it won't, then don't scramble. There's a risk in it which I like, in other words.
Quote
Also, even at higher levels of climb with AI city elf agility, you still fail plenty even when carrying low weight. The criteria for success and failure is just not consistent at all.
Can't comment on this, but I've definitely had PCs who rarely failed at climbing, elves included. Sometimes you get in a peculiar situation where you have high agi and you can only get climb up to advanced or something, but in those cases I rarely if ever failed, so it was a wash in the end. But that's anecdotal, so I can't really comment. (Although I did, because I can't help commenting!)
Southside Naki Parkour has killed more pickpockets than His Arm.
You can make it by with journeyman climb, no held weapons and a set of climbing gear. Safe places to practice are rare, because a crit fail can knock you out and leave you vulnerable. I suggest never going anywhere where you will suffer more than a 1 room drop until you are past getting failures when moving downward.
I have never scrambled for purchase on purpose and had favorable results. I have on accident though. I tend to avoid it unless i know the drop is fatal.
If the scrambling wasn't almost a death sentence to attempt, then it would be a suitable counter to the law of averages of falling at high journeyman or better.
Climb is probably one of my most used skills in this game beside kick, and I think it's perfect right now.
I have scrambled successfully dozens of times to save my characters life. I've actually ran out of stamina climbing down a cliff in the desert, let go, and then scrambled 1 room from the bottom to save myself, then dropped to the ground and unrolled a tent. I like that climbing is dangerous for those without master climb, because, at least in my experience, climb is one of the best tools for shaking off a pursuer who is going to pound me into the ground if they catch me.
And if you feel like you're not doing enough, there are gloves, spikes, ropes, sticky string (I've only seen this once in clan storage) to increase your climb.
The scramble for safety, for me, does ludicrous amounts of damage, compared to fall damage. Scramble also has such a low chance of success, that, really, it's safer to not use it, outside of absolute death drops. It's very counter-intuitive, that trying to find a hand hold and prevent a long drop to the ground is, really, more likely to kill you, than spreading your arms and, with an smile, accepting the free fall to the rocks below.
You are also falling at break-neck speeds and need to do something about it, catching a handhold while falling a long distance is at the very least going to fuck up your hand a bit. And the worst is your arm breaking from doing it, its not exactly as safe as movies and games make it out to be.
No one said, let it do no damage. It should not be so harsh, that it's better not to try.
Scramble is a risk, because you've already fallen. Lots of other skills don't even give you a second chance, I see no problem with scramble being a risky move because it should be used in life or death situations.
As a little experiment I checked my logs for all instances of scrambling, they were pretty rare, and most my successes were with my characters most skilled in climbing which actually had a solid rate of success.
You can do this experiment yourself if you have logs, just use this cmd line from your logs folder to put all instances into a file, I threw the AAA at the front of the file name so it would be empty when it was searched and this command will also search all sub-files for those that organize this way.
findstr /s /i scramble *.txt > AAA_ScrambleResults.txt
You can then search that file for "but find nothing" and "and stop the fall" respectively to take a look at your successes and failures.
Cheers :)
Not sure if it already works this way, but 'scrambling' should take into account how far you've fallen, then reduce the fall damage at the bottom by one room.
i.e. 3 room fall, you scramble on the first room and take some damage based off falling one room before the scramble, then at the bottom you take damage as if you've fallen 2 rooms.
Or something like that.
You know whats really scary? Is when your very first climb is a crit fail. And then due to that fail, you also fall 3 storeys down. That here is a plot squasher :).
QuoteScrambling for purchase should not be like getting shot in the neck by an arrow.
Reminds me of the time some genius HG threw a bola at me, in pitch darkness at night, no torches out or anything, while I was hanging up in the rooftops waiting for dawn to roll around. That sure was fun.
Given that we're talking about climb code anyway..
Pleaaaase make city-bound guilds get better climb if the guild revamp does ever become a thing, staff? Pretty please? I know that rangers are the golden boys of this game, but those cool rooftops are a cruel joke when those that live in the city need to fear for their lives to ever use them :(
Anything less than master climb is pretty tough to live with if you actually want to use the skill. The Journeyman cap that the subclasses enjoy is pretty much useless in my experience.
For master to be worthwhile, levels lower than master need to be less useful. To get to master, levels lower than master can't work flawlessly.
In the city, I find if you NEED to climb, you don't need to climb up the 3-5 room areas. There are other ways to stay up and out of sight.
However, on a character with advanced climb, I had palpitations just thinking about going to some areas, because a 2-room crit fail put me at negative HP once.
.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 25, 2017, 11:55:05 AM
For master to be worthwhile, levels lower than master need to be less useful. To get to master, levels lower than master can't work flawlessly.
You're not wrong, but it doesn't make journeyman any more useful.
It's like backstab. Ain't nobody going into a serious situation counting on journeyman backstab.
If you're the one who climbs or backstabs on your weekends off because it's a fun hobby, maybe leave the serious situations to the folks who devote the majority of their time to perfecting those sorts of skills.
And if you're a player who wants to be able to come on the scene and be the go-to guy for climbing that cliff or backstabbing that enemy (or doing whatever), maybe don't leave it to your subguild?
(https://m.popkey.co/e59d7a/gKVg6.gif)
Quote from: manipura on August 25, 2017, 04:24:44 PM
If you're the one who climbs or backstabs on your weekends off because it's a fun hobby, maybe leave the serious situations to the folks who devote the majority of their time to perfecting those sorts of skills.
And if you're a player who wants to be able to come on the scene and be the go-to guy for climbing that cliff or backstabbing that enemy (or doing whatever), maybe don't leave it to your subguild?
Couldn't have said it better.
.
Abilities are more than capable of being worthwhile at lower levels but it seems climb isn't one of them.
Bash becomes usable well after apprentice, disarm and the like as well.
Weapon skills are amazing at low levels as well.
Crafting skills aren't really in the same boat but you have a variety of stuff to do.
Climb has an extremely high chance to murder you with very little to gain.
Quote from: Molten Heart on August 25, 2017, 12:30:25 PM
It'd be cool if there were differing degrees of difficulty in climbable terrain. For example a stone wall might have many grips and footholds/handholds that even novice climbers could negotiate. And there there might be a virtually sheer wall with minimal handholds or any traction that only a master climbers or someone with a lot of climbing gear would hope to ascend.
I really like this idea. I think this would mitigate what people are complaining about while still making sure master climb is substantially better than journeyman.
Is there not? Some descriptions are more threatening than others, I feel.
Yeah, I don't know if there is or not because I don't usually get very far with outdoorsy types before dying horribly (not that only outdoorsy types climb, but my sneaky types die horribly too.) I just assumed it wasn't that way because MH said so and he seemed to know what he was talking about.
.
Quote from: manipura on August 25, 2017, 04:24:44 PM
If you're the one who climbs or backstabs on your weekends off because it's a fun hobby, maybe leave the serious situations to the folks who devote the majority of their time to perfecting those sorts of skills.
And if you're a player who wants to be able to come on the scene and be the go-to guy for climbing that cliff or backstabbing that enemy (or doing whatever), maybe don't leave it to your subguild?
Come on. There's much more valuable input to be had than the MUD equivalent of 'git gud, scrub.'
Nobody climbs well that's not a ranger. Absolutely nobody. It doesn't matter if you're a 'rinthi elf who's lived three stories up in a half-ruined tenement building, you're never going to be as good as the thirty thousandth generic dorf who rides inix all day. You're a pickpocket, assassin, burglar? Sucks to be you, because your skillset is never going to be as good at traversing rooftops as that one Arabeti sandblood who's never even entered a place with walls.
And y'know what? Fine. Let pickpockets have low advanced climb at the very best, and let rangers have master everything, from archery to direction sense to ride to skin to weapon skills to dual wield to god knows what else. Let city subguilds be kinda sucky at their own environment for god knows what reason, and just kinda get haughty when people suggest maybe it shouldn't be that way. But arguing that some alley-dwelling fuck doesn't spend more time devoting themselves to getting their Assassin's Creed on than a guy out in the salt flats is ludicrous.
Please, buff the climb that city sneakies get a little, nerf that of rangers a bit, or make rooftops more easily traversed. As it stands, it's one more example of anything criminal-related being a suicide mission because of the code being intensely punitive on people attempting such a lifestyle.
I actually didn't say 'git gud, scrub' but if that's how you want to read it, whatever.
What I said was, if a situation requires the best person for the job and you aren't the best person, stay home.
And there is plenty of climbing a non-ranger can successfully do. The two or three people that immediately come to mind that I regularly and personally interacted with recently certainly weren't rangers.
Again, I didn't say anything about buffing or nerfing anything, I said if you picked a guild/subguild that doesn't let you reach the top/upper levels of a skill, don't show up to a serious situation and bitch about not being good enough to succeed.
This might all be helped if climbs had difficulty levels like crafting does. But then would there be threads here saying "My subguild gives me journeyman climb and I got to the situation and it was an advanced climb. This was a waste of my time please change this."
QuoteI actually didn't say 'git gud, scrub' but if that's how you want to read it, whatever.
What I said was, if a situation requires the best person for the job and you aren't the best person, stay home.
Uh huh. Okay.
QuoteAnd there is plenty of climbing a non-ranger can successfully do.
Nope.
I've seen people straight-up get KO'd attempting rooftop climb. Celf agility city-subguilded sorts that had climbing ropes - thunk, you are now out of stun, nice going, chump. There might be some ledges and the like off in bumfuck nowhere that jman climb will reliable scale both up and down, but that's not the point of contention. If your assassin needs to get up and down those, he's fucked anyhow.
QuoteBut then would there be threads here saying "My subguild gives me journeyman climb and I got to the situation and it was an advanced climb. This was a waste of my time please change this."
If you don't like the gdb's periodic bad idea threads, play the game without going there. 'tis a silly place, etc, etc. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect certain main guilds to climb better without also arguing that subguilds should be able to do it as well.
Quote from: Patuk on August 27, 2017, 10:31:11 AMAs it stands, it's one more example of anything criminal-related being a suicide mission because of the code being intensely punitive on people attempting such a lifestyle.
Pretty much, yeah.
The criminal life is pretty smooth if you're in the Guild because you just collect the protection payments that they pay because ... well ... because they always have and nobody knows if they can break them.
But if you have to actually go out and earn a criminal living in the city you face a whole host of problems, one of which is the climb you need to SURVIVE the RNG of crimcode is extremely arbitrary on the classes which need it the most.
There are TWO sets of rooftops you can reach without climb, but the problem is so can His Arm if they decide to come get your ass. And if you get caught up there then you risk the climb RNG moving to another roof or PK if you try to run back to the one entrance that allows you to safely climb down. Or if you want to move to a different rooftop to watch the entrance to say, Red's, then you need climb.
The other safer rooftops need climb, and if you fail, you're suddenly at ground level, with 30 hp and 17 stun (if you're lucky) with teleporting half giants wielding greatswords who can see hidden.
Maybe the guild revamp will take care of this, but I have my doubts.
Quote from: Patuk on August 27, 2017, 11:19:31 AM
QuoteAnd there is plenty of climbing a non-ranger can successfully do.
Nope.
I've seen people straight-up get KO'd attempting rooftop climb. Celf agility city-subguilded sorts that had climbing ropes - thunk, you are now out of stun, nice going, chump. There might be some ledges and the like off in bumfuck nowhere that jman climb will reliable scale both up and down, but that's not the point of contention. If your assassin needs to get up and down those, he's fucked anyhow.
Yep.
I've seen people straight up scale up and down walls and rooftops like it was nothing. Not rangers either.
Not sure what else there is to say here. You're going to say "Nuh-uh it's broken because I've seen all the times it hasn't worked" and I'm going to say "It's not easy and it's probably not supposed to be but I've seen it work well plenty of times so I don't believe it's as broken as some people think."
But I have my opinion and you have yours.
Tomato-tomahto, I guess? *shrug*
Quote from: Miradus on August 27, 2017, 11:40:04 AM
The criminal life is pretty smooth if you're in the Guild because you just collect the protection payments that they pay because ... well ... because they always have and nobody knows if they can break them.
But if you have to actually go out and earn a criminal living in the city you face a whole host of problems, one of which is the climb you need to SURVIVE the RNG of crimcode is extremely arbitrary on the classes which need it the most.
Interestingly, some of the best criminals I've crossed paths with in the not-too-distant past have not been in the Guild. They did well for themselves.
I think those non Guild criminals do well BECAUSE they have a whole host of problems to overcome. Weeds out almost all the competition and they become very good at navigating the other issues.
The social side of being a criminal is what always runs me down. When that melon breasted fem you sapped in an alley at night turns out to be the mudsex partner of half the playerbase and suddenly every Bynner, noble, and Arm recruit is white knighting across the city looking to murder you. Mmmm. Good times, good times.
But back to climb, it's not that it fails EVERY TIME. It's that it will always fail and the consequences are ridiculous.
Imagine if a ranger fell off his mount while learning to ride and stunned himself unconscious in the scrub plains for 20 minutes. The playerbase would be up in arms demanding a change, even if it only happened once every week to someone.
QuoteI've seen people straight up scale up and down walls and rooftops like it was nothing. Not rangers either.
Well, yeah. I also once succesfully got a backstab off at apprentice, and even somehow prepared some food at apprentice cook.
None of that changes the fact that climb is lethal as
fuck for the non-ranger using it, and that you're still risking falling to your death each and every time. It's not even as with steal, where partial failures are a thing; if you're climbing in any direction that's not up, a failure means you get to roll up a new character.
Ranger isn't the only main guild to be good at climbing. Also, remember that gear, encumbrance and stats matter.
re: city climb vs. wilderness climb)
It does make sense to me to distinguish city climb from wilderness climb, for one reason mentioned: there's quite a difference between the skill in picking a switchback route down a cliff vs. parkour up a building.
There's another thing too: a fall from the Shield Wall, which strikes me as /huge/ is more or less the same as a fall from some of the buildings in Allanak. So one idea here would be to:
o Double the distance on all outdoor climbing spots.
But this would make them all death drops, you might say! Well, once you've doubled the distance on outdoor climbing spots, the second step would be to:
o Half the damage done per drop everywhere.
I mean, a fall of a roof should kill you, just as a drop off the shield wall kinda should. For all the faults the climb code has, the actual damage dealt doesn't really seem to be one.
Quote from: Patuk on August 27, 2017, 01:47:56 PM
I mean, a fall of a roof should kill you, just as a drop off the shield wall kinda should. For all the faults the climb code has, the actual damage dealt doesn't really seem to be one.
I agree here. Even in Zalanthas, dropping off a 50ft roof may not kill you, but by description it seems like a lot of the buildings in Allanak are much higher than 50ft.
I think the skill involved needs a bit more "oomph" but it would require extra coding. Each "climb check" room should have a difficulty modifier added to it, and then the climbing gear in game can actually have its "quality" be useful.
Then you can succeed a climb check if your climb + gear quality is higher than the difficulty of the climb itself. I don't know the numbers, but it'd be nice if "Decent" climbing gloves gave you a +6 to your roll, and terrible quality gloves gave you a +1. Intermittently while climbing, your gloves would be "used" and degrade in quality. The more gear you wear, the more likely SOMETHING degrades in quality, but also the safer your climb.
Quote from: palomar on August 27, 2017, 01:30:42 PM
Ranger isn't the only main guild to be good at climbing. Also, remember that gear, encumbrance and stats matter.
^
Assassins can barely climb. Pickpockets are a little better. Burglars and rangers are about the same, and are as good as you can get without magick.
I've always felt that the risk vs. reward of the climb skill has been way off.
Succeed? Congrats. You've moved a room.
Fail? Mantis head, probably.
I'm sure there have been plenty of harrowing situations where a master climber was able to masterfully evade a gith warband with their masterful use of the skill, but in my experience the climb skill exists only to crush the falsest of hopes it provides when I accidentally fall into a hole or whatever.
How many people here had a character, or knew a character who was totally awesome, plot creating, engaging, vibrant, interesting persona. Someone who was around for the longest of times, created a lot of content and fun in the game and all that ended due to a crit fail in climb this one weird time on a room that he usually traversed with ease?
Part of my suggestion of halving the damage from falls was to make it a little less black and white, do or die. When my PC falls off a three story or four story building (and survives), I can't really imagine in my head that they just dropped off the edge; rather they are constantly working their way down, window to window to awning, but this time they slipped somewhere in the fall.
I still think climbing is pretty ok, overall, once you learn the counterintuitive trick about scramble.
Quote from: nauta on August 29, 2017, 07:56:53 PM
Part of my suggestion of halving the damage from falls was to make it a little less black and white, do or die. When my PC falls off a three story or four story building (and survives), I can't really imagine in my head that they just dropped off the edge; rather they are constantly working their way down, window to window to awning, but this time they slipped somewhere in the fall.
I still think climbing is pretty ok, overall, once you learn the counterintuitive trick about scramble.
counterintuitive trick about scramble. Unless your climb is at master. Dont Do it.
Molehill mountain. (Saying this because 'useless' seems to have become synonymous with 'it has risks')
Agility helps climbing. Thus, stumpy dwarf assassin makes tradeoffs for the boons they get with stumpy assassin skillset.
There are two main classes with master climb. One is better than ranger, or at least equivalent (but I believe it's better).
Two other main classes gain climb with limited proficiency where they are utterly capable, but will look at a long fall like it's inviting death (because it is).
Other classes can use subguilds to gain it to varying degrees of proficiency.
I see no reason to make it -easier- for anyone, but the mechanic of 'falling' could use improved physics. That is not to say that a journeyman climber should be able to thumb his nose at a three room fall. Cuz that shit is scary, and should be.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 29, 2017, 10:04:20 PM
Molehill mountain. (Saying this because 'useless' seems to have become synonymous with 'it has risks')
Agility helps climbing. Thus, stumpy dwarf assassin makes tradeoffs for the boons they get with stumpy assassin skillset.
There are two main classes with master climb. One is better than ranger, or at least equivalent (but I believe it's better).
Two other main classes gain climb with limited proficiency where they are utterly capable, but will look at a long fall like it's inviting death (because it is).
Other classes can use subguilds to gain it to varying degrees of proficiency.
I see no reason to make it -easier- for anyone, but the mechanic of 'falling' could use improved physics. That is not to say that a journeyman climber should be able to thumb his nose at a three room fall. Cuz that shit is scary, and should be.
Imagine a rl year old elven character who crit fails on climbing 1 room climb, gets knocked out, and gets killed by a creature that normally dies in 3 rounds from a 0 day warrior.
Something like that happens. Something like that 'shouldnt' happen.
...why not?
last i checked, life wasn't fair.
armageddon is even less fair.
maybe your palms were sweaty. the gear was used up and broke.
a rock fell out of place.
bad stuff happens even to the best.
Quote from: evilcabbage on August 30, 2017, 03:21:19 AM
maybe your palms were sweaty. the gear was used up and broke.
This is the part I think needs more attention. Climb Gear, so far as I know, doesn't have Tool Quality Functionality, so it doesn't really break. It just adds a flat modifier to your skill.
Climbing is not fair. If you're going to climb a mountain or scale a building, you probably should be decked out in the proper gear, and not a soft pair of footpads or full scale armor. Also, an assassin probably shouldn't be climbing to the top of four story drops.
I do think there needs to be either more granularity, or more intuitive tool use. "with a staff in your hand, you climb east" doesn't tell me if its a detriment, rather than using a grappling hook. Is that how you're SUPPOSED to use the grappling hook? If I hold sticky string, does that help, or hinder because I have something in my hands?
I'm not talking about the shield wall or the trees in the Grey Forest.
I'm talking about the walls in Allanak southside.
You look up and see handholds on the wall. You check your skills and you're at journeyman climb.
You type up.
You slip and fall, land on your neck, and lay there unconscious on Stonecarver's for the next half hour.
One of the many examples of the way climb is frustrating. I don't have any problem with the damage of the fall from a three room roof. It sounds like it will hurt and it does hurt. That's fair. But there is no mechanism to check the climb before you attempt it, and if you fail you are going to get hurt. And you can't scramble or you're highly likely to die from THAT.
Imagine you're a warrior or a ranger and you can initiate a fight but there was no coded flee mechanism. You start a fight and you either win or you die.
That's how climb is right now.
I've never had trouble with climb. But it seems like a partial fail state would be a good idea.
Edit: I also think stats have a lot more to do with how climb works than people are acknowledging. I think (don't know) that strength and agility both affect how often you'll fall, while endurance and agility may affect how much a fall hurts you.
That's just a theory. A game theory.
One thing I will say is that trying to scramble turns a negligible fall into an anus-clenching death-is-looming situation every time. It's mostly not worth it to try, even on a ranger with master climb.
EDIT: And it's fine that scramble is risky.
I've definitely had a critical fail on just trying to go up. I was maybe a foot off the ground, and fell right on my neck and blacked out. I'm pretty sure a PC came by and stole some of my shit, because there was nothing I could do.
I think at least on the -initial- climb, reduce the difficulty. You critically failed, but why did you land on your neck? If you're already a cord in the air... sure.
Quote from: Riev on August 30, 2017, 10:43:35 AM
...I was maybe a foot off the ground, and fell right on my neck and blacked out.
That's stupid. Please fix that.
Quote from: Riev on August 30, 2017, 10:43:35 AM
I think at least on the -initial- climb, reduce the difficulty. You critically failed, but why did you land on your neck? If you're already a cord in the air... sure.
Agreed.
Quote from: Riev on August 30, 2017, 09:20:05 AM
I do think there needs to be either more granularity, or more intuitive tool use. "with a staff in your hand, you climb east" doesn't tell me if its a detriment, rather than using a grappling hook. Is that how you're SUPPOSED to use the grappling hook? If I hold sticky string, does that help, or hinder because I have something in my hands?
The game will tell you if the item in your hand is hindering you when you climb with it.
Has nothing to do with fairness. Has everything to do with the stories and gameplay. Permanent death and especially a sudden permanent death adds color and atmosphere to the stories and gameplay. But the severity of climbs punishment for failures 'only' detracts from the game.
Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps someone truly feels that there is some kind of benefit to gameplay from it, but I dont see it. The scenario I described has happened to a character I loosely observed. That characters death was not caused by his actions, or someone elses actions, nor any consequences, it was just a tiny bit of archaic code that robbed an entire region of plots, stories, and eventually players for about half a year. And I dont think it adds anything to the game.
Quote from: Dar on August 30, 2017, 04:50:01 PM
Has nothing to do with fairness. Has everything to do with the stories and gameplay. Permanent death and especially a sudden permanent death adds color and atmosphere to the stories and gameplay. But the severity of climbs punishment for failures 'only' detracts from the game.
Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps someone truly feels that there is some kind of benefit to gameplay from it, but I dont see it. The scenario I described has happened to a character I loosely observed. That characters death was not caused by his actions, or someone elses actions, nor any consequences, it was just a tiny bit of archaic code that robbed an entire region of plots, stories, and eventually players for about half a year. And I dont think it adds anything to the game.
Agreed.
Quote from: Dar on August 30, 2017, 04:50:01 PM
That characters death was not caused by his actions.
So the character didn't choose to move into a climb room but then fell and died?
Yes. The current iteration of climb is totally ruining so many plots in the game. If those plots, i.e. Things you were interested in whether anyone else was or not, had gone on, the game would be momentously changed.
The 'this ruins plots' and 'this scares away newbies' arguments are two of the least favorite things I like to see on a code discussion, even if it's only the former that is usually a gross overestimation of impact based off of the player aversion to death.
Quote from: lostinspace on August 30, 2017, 05:23:08 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 30, 2017, 04:50:01 PM
That characters death was not caused by his actions.
So the character didn't choose to move into a climb room but then fell and died?
Consider climbing an 8 foot fence. Now imagine failing and instead knocking yourself out before you even pull yourself up by a foot. Then dying to a cat that runs past and decides to scratch your eye out.
Not climbing a fence and then landing bad on another side. Not climbing a 3 story wall, losing a handhold and falling, not trying to climb down and slipping. But basically doing a pull up and knocking yourself out somehow.
Its not impossible ofcourse. With enough imagination and mental equalibristics its possible to explain it out. But imagine 'that' ending ... ending anything really. It makes no sense in my head. Does it in yours?
I have no problem with climbing being dangerous. Heck, I had charactets with no climb succeed 6 rooms climbs. But the crit fail of climb mechanic makes no sense
Quote from: Dar on August 30, 2017, 07:31:09 PM
Consider climbing an 8 foot fence. Now imagine failing and instead knocking yourself out before you even pull yourself up by a foot. Then dying to a cat that runs past and decides to scratch your eye out.
Not climbing a fence and then landing bad on another side. Not climbing a 3 story wall, losing a handhold and falling, not trying to climb down and slipping. But basically doing a pull up and knocking yourself out somehow.
Its not impossible ofcourse. With enough imagination and mental equalibristics its possible to explain it out. But imagine 'that' ending ... ending anything really. It makes no sense in my head. Does it in yours?
I have no problem with climbing being dangerous. Heck, I had charactets with no climb succeed 6 rooms climbs. But the crit fail of climb mechanic makes no sense
To me a crit fail is hitting your head on the ground. Grip slips, falls back, head hits ground, unconscious. I see no problem with this.
Also if you're worried about your character being unconscious, consider prioritizing a higher stun. I've had characters crit fall and not pass out, but they all had a high stun.
I am not away of any climb room in the game that represents a one foot fall. The top of the current room/bottom of the room up/down being one foot up/down doesn't really even make sense for an up/down exit.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 31, 2017, 12:36:13 PM
I am not away of any climb room in the game that represents a one foot fall. The top of the current room/bottom of the room up/down being one foot up/down doesn't really even make sense for an up/down exit.
There's a few rooms in the rinth and in the northlands that are 'climb check' but not actual falls. I've definitely knocked myself out on the rinth one, which was pretty funny.
Reading those room descriptions shows that they represent heaps and treacherous terrain with falls very possible within them.
Not one foot falls. Though it would be nice if for those rooms in particular, you had some indication it was a climb check BEFORE you went into them.
I once watched a guy fall down on flat ground and knocked himself cold. Just tripped over his feet and wiped completely out.
I have nothing to add to the climb discussion. Just a random memory it brought to mind.
Quote from: WarriorPoet on August 31, 2017, 02:52:26 PM
I once watched a guy fall down on flat ground and knocked himself cold. Just tripped over his feet and wiped completely out.
I have nothing to add to the climb discussion. Just a random memory it brought to mind.
any fall
literally any fall
could knock your ass out.
or even kill you if you land wrong.
There are tumbling skills you can pick up in real life that can mitigate some fall damage. To my knowledge, such do not exist in game.
Quote from: Grapes on August 31, 2017, 08:50:11 PM
There are tumbling skills you can pick up in real life that can mitigate some fall damage. To my knowledge, such do not exist in game.
That would be your agility and endurance stats, which you can prioritize during the chargen process. Also, in real life, most people are lousy tumblers, even if they paid attention in gym class in school. Most good tumblers don't "pick up" these skills in real life, they have very specific training. Most parkour tumblers are - not most people. Or even many people. They are the exception to the rule. Most people, when faced with the prospects of climbing a mountain, or staying down at the bottom enjoying the view, will order a fruity rum drink and grab the binoculars.
Parkour and tumbling are a lot like real life fighting. You need to be fit, strong and have good reaction to not get your ass broke.
i wasn't aware agility had an effect on fall damage.
i think it has an effect on your climb success, though, so maybe that's what lizzie meant.
yeah, endurance will help. having high stun generally saves you from knocking yourself out from a fall.
You need to be fit for parkour. For hitting the ground like a sack of meat, you do not, for rolling, you do not.
i... don't think rolling when you're falling will help much if it's a really sudden fall and you crack your head on the ground.
in fact, if you're going headfirst, a roll isn't going to help much, i don't think.
Not to be insulting, but please think outside your box a moment, several martial arts, some of the grappling ones, specifically, focus on not hitting your head on the ground and, as a matter of fact, redistributing the force of impact. Otherwise, they'd be impossible to practice.
i don't see much in the form of martial arts in armageddon.
i mean, there was one time, but you have an endurance stat for a reason.
Last thing, there's martial arts everywhere. Martial arts don't make you Kung Fu Jesus, they are adaptations to practice and technique. Brawling is an art of its own, as are wrestling, boxing, and fencing. Usually done as sport these days, I guess some of us start with the assumption that this is some ninja stuff you wouldn't naturally learn if you bothered to fail to climb tall fences or trees as a child, or never got in a particularly brutal scrap and survived.
now you're venturing into the insulting territory.
i was in the army for five years. i know what martial arts is.
the tumbling technique is something you practice.
we don't have one in arm. we have agility, climb, and endurance. agility and climb for climbing, endurance for taking hits/falls. think of endurance as your all-round ability to take and mitigate damage.
And the Army makes you some sort of expert on falling? Interesting. I did say last thing, but you're baiting me... why would Zalanthans, who are tougher, smarter (though no books to read), quicker, and stronger than their earthly counterparts, follow the rules of your particular existence? We're not talking mysticism here, simply, how not to land directly on your neck.
EDIT: Not landing on your head while falling head first can be accomplised, probably quite painfully, depending on height, by , forming your arms into the rough approximation of a diamond above your head, knife-handing the ground, letting it go down your forearm, upper arm, over your back and spine. Two stories up I've never tested in real life, and I refuse to do so, because of fear of possible injury.
Are you people saying that a master of climb wouldn't be able to learn how to do a maneuver because real life?
People can master craft works of fucking art in this game but doing a tumble is where we draw the line?
Edit: I'm not saying I want tumbling, it'd be cool but whatever, I'm just wondering what the hell people are fucking arguing about. If you are arguing real life shenanigans, stop. If you are arguing it makes climbing not hard. Whatever.
People are getting into insulting each other over climbing.
Climbing.
The thing you do to get on a roof and hide from soldiers and shit.
Pls calm down.
Here is my experience with climb as a pickpocket, or something else I really don't remember OR care. It would work, a lot. Certain climbs /seemed/ to be easier than not at all in the sense I could go up and down them thirty times, and I did because I was a noob as fuck and wanted to twink, and not fall.
Certain falls, generally if you are climbing from another climbing spot it seems to do this, are super fucking dangerous, atleast in my experience but I could be wrong.
I feel like outdoor places were harder to climb in than general?
It always seemed super difficult to climb between "Above in the air" areas.
Did I ever crit fall? Yes. I did it in the 'Rinth once during pre peak and somehow didn't die, it was funny. It was a fall from an area that looked like it would have been an easy climb as well, on top of an object, but I fell and busted my ass. If I recall I was never able to climb on that certain object and I always thought it was weird.
Do I think climbing should be easier? Sort of. I don't really think climbing is necessary but if it was made a tad bit easier to compensate for how it doesn't provide 'too' much I think so. I don't think it should be to the point where I'm climbing ontop of my apartment because I'm cool and edgy and doors are for nerds but it should be easier, in my opinion.
Quote from: Jihelu on September 01, 2017, 02:15:09 AM
Are you people saying that a master of climb wouldn't be able to learn how to do a maneuver because real life?
People can master craft works of fucking art in this game but doing a tumble is where we draw the line?
QFT
Quote from: Grapes on September 01, 2017, 01:40:03 AM
And the Army makes you some sort of expert on falling? Interesting. I did say last thing, but you're baiting me... why would Zalanthans, who are tougher, smarter (though no books to read), quicker, and stronger than their earthly counterparts, follow the rules of your particular existence? We're not talking mysticism here, simply, how not to land directly on your neck.
EDIT: Not landing on your head while falling head first can be accomplised, probably quite painfully, depending on height, by , forming your arms into the rough approximation of a diamond above your head, knife-handing the ground, letting it go down your forearm, upper arm, over your back and spine. Two stories up I've never tested in real life, and I refuse to do so, because of fear of possible injury.
well, there you go. like i said, endurance is your ability to mitigate pain and injury - that means you're built tougher, or you've learned techniques to reduce the amount of damage you take, represented by generally being tougher than other people if you have a high endurance, or just being able to turn at the right time.
so if you're worried about falling, prioritizing agility and endurance can be your saving grace.
the endurance stat -is- your ability to tumble. it's your ability to block punches so they don't do as much damage. it's your ability to turn your body so a sword swing that would have been fatal becomes a minor injury at best.
your defense skill is similar - defense is your ability to work with the natural confines of your body to avoid and mitigate damage. endurance is just a value that has applications for all forms of damage. defense is a combat-oriented thing.
so, you have a tumble ability. roll higher endurance.
also, i am not baiting you. you started with 'no offense', then brought up examples of how everyone assumes martial arts is just kung fu and ninja stuff.
the army teaches you self defense courses, that are called "combatives", from level one to level four. you're taught to rappel down ropes, how to climb, and how to fall properly so you don't take as much injury when you land.
all of these are done with safety mechanisms so that - in the unlikely even you fall wrong - the injury will be mitigated somewhat.
so, yes. the army -does- teach you how to fall a certain way.
but it's something you learn.
there are limitations in this game, code-based mechanics that you simply have to make work more in your favor. is climbing too hard? climb with gear. if climbing with gear is even too hard, you have to weigh that risk on your own, and decide if it's one worth taking. a journeyman in climbing is almost -guaranteed- to fuck up a few times. even the best masters of climbing in the real world have a chance to fail.
to my knowledge, master doesn't mean you have "100" skill in climbing, it means you've reached a point where you're as good as you can get in climbing, and that's it. there's more to progress into master, but there is always risk. why do you want to take the risk away?
What if...
Craft skills
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ladder crafting (master)
The problem with falling, is that for every story you read/hear/see where a guy survives a 3rd floo fall with no injury, there are 50 stories of that same thing happening, with broken bones and even death.
Falling off the shield wall -should- kill you. Its described as being absolutely massive and yet fairly often I hear of guys surviving the fall.
Tripping and smacking your head is certainly possible, that is why its called a crit fail, you fucked up! And now you have to deal with having smashed your head on the wall, or tripped awkwardly and landed on your head. Its a crit fail not a regular fail.
Don't make me get all moderator mom up in here folks. Be nice.
And this is why I avoid the gdb.
I think the only issue I have with "people can trip over nothing and knock themselves out" is that a lot of people are talking about how that happens to people WITH THE SKILL OF CLIMBING. Like, even if you're at Apprentice, you've got the talent and skill for climbing and balance. You aren't an acrobat, but you're close to it.
If you have the climbing skill, landing on your neck going INTO a fall room shouldn't happen. If you're CURRENTLY in a fall room and moving, then sure. You're above SOMETHING.
you try to climb up, but then you slip off.
maybe you got a foot or two off the ground and hit your head on the wall or the ground.
Quote from: WarriorPoet on September 01, 2017, 08:15:22 AM
And this is why I avoid the gdb.
Same.
Anyway, EvilCabbage, I apologize for my previous wording. I grew up climbing trees, scaling walls, and jumping fences before I ever received any training beyond personal experience and the words of wisdom not to absorb an impact with straightened joints, and I wasn't the exception, so my anecdotal experience on the matter may differ from yours. I understand you like risk, as do I, but it's been my experience that when several people are discussing a perceived issue with a feature that there just may be a problem, especially when people who don't perceive it as a problem discuss changes they wouldn't mind seeing. I have no solution to propose.
Yes, it can happen, you could be walking along one day, trip, and split your skull open on a curb in real life, but I wouldn't argue for crit-fails of such nature in a game. With that I have nothing more to add to the discussion without repeating myself.
well, that's just the thing.
this is not 'just' a game.
this is partly a simulation in realism, and partly an experience in a brutal world that does everything it can to kill you.
mekillots rampage.
raptors murder.
spiders... don't even get me started on spiders.
there are a plethora of horrible, terrifying, destructive creatures and beings that can end you literally in an instant.
climb code? climb code rarely oneshots -anybody-.
Please do not turn this into a discussion of "this doesn't affect enough people so we shouldn't talk about it". The purpose is to discuss the code used in Climb, and whether its too harsh, too easy, or what have you. Not "is it worth talking about considering other things".
right, my argument against a modification of climb code, based on my own experience with it, is that it's not anywhere near as dangerous as people are saying it is, especially compared to the mass of destructive things that exist in the game.
The argument isn't that it one-shots people, so far as I can tell. It seems to be that, compared to other skills at the Journeyman Level, its one of the least reliable with the most risk. A missed backstab costs you in time, but you can mitigate that by not backstabbing 300day warriors.
Jman climb can be mitigated with tools and gear, to a point, but a failed climb of ONE ROOM, from standing, can knock you out for 20 RL minutes with no recourse.
.
walk
sneak
run
climb
"The odd little man climbs east"
Feel free to roleplay tumbling out of injury's way when you fail to climb up without slipping and landing on your neck.
I've never seen a crit fail down, so one could argue that the trade-off between up and down for climb is that while it is easier to fall when going down, it may not be possible to crit fail while doing that like it is when climbing up.
I wander if fall falling has a chance of 'crit failing'. Or if running off the edge of a building makes the same climb check.
Lets say you are on top of a one story building and you have absolutely shitty climb.
Would it be safer to straight up jump off or risk trying to climb and falling on your neck?
This question intrigues me...
.
Quote from: Brokkr on September 01, 2017, 12:35:01 PM
Feel free to roleplay tumbling out of injury's way when you fail to climb up without slipping and landing on your neck.
I've never seen a crit fail down, so one could argue that the trade-off between up and down for climb is that while it is easier to fall when going down, it may not be possible to crit fail while doing that like it is when climbing up.
Brokkr, you my guy, but even as staff... "I've never seen" isn't really helpful, if a player thinks they have or, in fact, code does allow for it.
Definitely possible.
Ive walked into a room with a 3 room climb down and crit failed. So i enter the room. Crit fail. Then drop 3 rooms.
you can definitely crit fail going down, i think, but i don't think it's possible to crit fail going "up" if you're in a climbing room and the ground is not beneath you.
feel free to verify for me
Its possible. Although if you crit fail in mid air, by going up and go KO, you will not drop to the ground. Youll remain in the same room.
While if you crit fail by entering the room with down climb check, you drop.
are zalanthan humans sturdier and hardier than RL counterparts to the point of just taking a nap to sleep off damage from a pissed off silt squid the size of a small house?
or are they so fragile that bonking their head on the ground after a short fall puts them to sleep?
im confused.
???
Quote from: Riev on September 01, 2017, 11:35:18 AM
The argument isn't that it one-shots people, so far as I can tell. It seems to be that, compared to other skills at the Journeyman Level, its one of the least reliable with the most risk. A missed backstab costs you in time, but you can mitigate that by not backstabbing 300day warriors.
Jman climb can be mitigated with tools and gear, to a point, but a failed climb of ONE ROOM, from standing, can knock you out for 20 RL minutes with no recourse.
I guess my counter argument is that for the sneak type characters I play, climb IS my alternative to combat. I want it to be dangerous and risky because I don't get parry or strong weapon skills.
Climb is life or death for those characters and if you want to pursue them, it should be dangerous for the pursuer, because it's definitely dangerous if I'm caught.
the argument that zalanthan humans are stronger than their rl counterparts can be summed up in one very simple test:
pick up a normal-sized human corpse.
i know plenty of people who are fairly strong that could definitely lift a guy who's about 160 pounds and keep going.
in zalanthas, you're LUCKY if you can even get him halfway off the ground.
in some ways, sure, your humans and whatnot are a little tougher. blows that would normally concussively take down a real life human or make him braindead don't do that here.
but strength wise, i do make the argument that real humans are actually 'stronger' than their zalanthan counterparts, in the "lifting" capacity.
Yes, Cabbage, and I'm at least %75 sure you were trained in utilizing the fireman's carry somewhere, which, you can lift someone much heavier than yourself and transport them a good ways. I guess the argument against being able to do realistically possible things may be that the reason Zalanthans are so much more physically evolved is because gravity is stronger? I'm still unsure how the exact ratios work out.
The game was probably coded by someone who would not know these things, or under the assumption that these things could not be potentially learned by trail and error and taught to others, or possibly the issue just never came up until now because there were more glaring issues requiring scrutiny, and maybe the difficulty of changing anything without worrying about a small error causing the RPI apocalypse.
i'm talking just regular old picking somebody up. anyone who does any sufficient amount of workout should be able to lift, what, two to three times their body weight?
and then you take your average armageddon pc, who goes to the byn, or does manual labor all the time.
you mean to tell me they can't carry someone who's 160 pounds?
but you can lift yourself up a wall.
The fact that Half-giant weight is realistic ish says to me that whoever originally codes things knew roughly some level of science.
Before people argue about it, its because of the way scaling and volume works. Google it, its a good read.
I don't think it behooves anyone to say they definitively know one way or the other. My experience with climb is that it's very basic. You either succeed, you don't succeed, or you really don't succeed. That seems to be how most skills in ArmageddonMUD work. Could it be more complex? Probably. Up to Staff how they want to spend their time making things more complex.
I also think Climbing Gear really helps ameliorate these problems. It's expensive, so it takes time to save for and purchase.
let's say you master climb
now tack climbing gear on top of that.
the chance of you EVER failing a climb roll is so -astronomically- low that it would basically never happen.
wear anakore.claw.glove on pelvis
That's not how you climb! Also, if you look back a few pages, you'll see people commenting on how less deadly it is to fall off the shield wall, which is massive, compared to exploring rooftops, which are pretty much welp, gg. I don't think there's an easy fix to that however, so I just, have no solutions other than, why the neck? Why can't it be I bump my head on the ground? Same result, but who's like, I know JUST how to break this fall in the most epic, stupid way possible? I mean, if anything needs to change it's the neck message, how often do you land on your neck even accidentally?
trust me.
the shield wall is a FAR more dangerous fall.
Quotewhy the neck?
That's the critical fail message. If that's too much commotion as far as interpreting the game goes, I'd also be okay with changing it to 'You lose you grip completely and plummet towards the ground!'. If that makes it all come together nicely for people.
I'm just asking because what kind of, beast, allows itself to land on its neck, that includes humans. Unless you're a giraffe that probably shouldn't be a landing location.
think of it like landing on your shoulders and neck, like you tumble back and your upper back (where your neck is) meets the ground.
presumably, that's what it means.
if you landed entirely on your neck you'd probably die instantly.
.
in real life?
a guy with a fourty pound assault pack, his clothes, a body vest, rifle, ammo, grenades, picking up another guy maybe wearing similar.
what i'm saying is in zalanthas the general average human (even a fairly strong one) can't even lift a -naked- corpse off the ground if he's carrying what amounts to essentially nothing.
a stone equals 2.2 pounds.
get a rough estimate of all the gear you have, then do those numbers up, tell me how much it weighs. if you do the numbers, you'll find out pretty fast that most of your equipment really doesn't weigh that much.
Is that 2.2 pounds actually true? Because if it is that answers a long standing question I have had.
Also, it makes a stone equal to a kilo which is neat.
QuoteI'm just asking because what kind of, beast, allows itself to land on its neck, that includes humans. Unless you're a giraffe that probably shouldn't be a landing location.
I think what you're saying is that all that damage comes from damage being delivered to the neck location. That would be interesting.
But I've never thought that that was the case. I think that's just 'the message' of a critical failure, and a message that's been there for a very long time. I'm guessing it's a message from a more hack'n slashy time of the game, because it's been there since before I played...so again, I'm fine with the message being changed. But I don't think that's the determining factor for the damage suffered.
I can totally be wrong on that, that was just always my impression.
Quote from: Hauwke on September 02, 2017, 04:51:02 AM
Is that 2.2 pounds actually true? Because if it is that answers a long standing question I have had.
Also, it makes a stone equal to a kilo which is neat.
as far as i know, a stone is a kilo.some google says one stone is 14 pounds.
i mean ZALANTHAN stones are kilos. because if you weighed ONE tenstone you'd be 140 pounds.
which means your human, at 9 tenstone, is almost 1400 pounds. 1260, to be exact.
so.
however, if we go by a stone is a kilo, that means a tenstone is ten kilos.
so 22 pounds.
22x9 is 198 pounds.
i think that lines up quite a bit more with actual weight.
This thread seems littered with inaccuracies, most of which are simply unraveled by going and do things for yourself to find out. It is also derailed to a large extent.
Calling Armageddon a model or simulation, with ten years experience in the relevant fields, makes me insanely nervous. I hope to god staff don't think of it that way. Armageddon is a game. And the swiftest and most common way to ruin a game is to put fun behind any other objective.
Calling back to earlier in the thread: the reason climb does not function like many other skills by glancing comparison is because you're missing just that: the comparison. Apprentice combat skills seem quite sufficient when you're up against another apprentice, or potentially enough against a journeyman. But if a master comes you, how woefully unprepared you are. And the difficulty checks against your climb skill is something you cannot see. And *most* of the ones that matter are very difficult, with a few lower, less important obstacles here and there.
I brought up a thread on climb once, I found it absolutely mind boggling that everyone in the game couldn't eventually get it to master level. Sorry parkour guy, but since you learned CQC we have to revoke your ability to do this. And you, got your MBA? Revoked. Nonsense. (edit: one of the complaints in that thread is it wouldn't be realistic)
Quote from: Kryos on September 02, 2017, 06:44:06 AMArmageddon is a game. And the swiftest and most common way to ruin a game is to put fun behind any other objective.
Quoted for truth.
Quote from: Kryos on September 02, 2017, 06:44:06 AM
I brought up a thread on climb once, I found it absolutely mind boggling that everyone in the game couldn't eventually get it to master level. Sorry parkour guy, but since you learned CQC we have to revoke your ability to do this. And you, got your MBA? Revoked. Nonsense. (edit: one of the complaints in that thread is it wouldn't be realistic)
I'd be fine with everyone having master climb, as long as everyone also gets master pick, master crafting options, master parry, master backstab, master shield use, master ride, etc.
Make climb checks more granular, so some climbs don't need as much climbing, where as sheer walls require a higher check.
Make climb tools have a quality that affects your side of the check.
When you're at Apprentice and Journeyman, use climbing gloves and a rope in your escape, or don't climb the sheer walls nearby.
eats popcorn..to lazy to gif