Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => Code Discussion => Topic started by: Kankfly on August 11, 2017, 11:05:13 AM

Title: Hunt!
Post by: Kankfly on August 11, 2017, 11:05:13 AM
I feel hunt sometimes gives a bit too little information. Wouldn't it be cool if you can:

>hunt
Someone has butchered a carcass less than a day/a few days/etc ago.

(Yes, I think i suggested that in another thread but thought I'd start a new thread anyway.)

Or, depending on the level of your skill, you can:

>hide tracks
>You start to cover up your tracks...
>You dust sand over your tracks and cover them up.

Or maybe even:

>disguise tracks (direction)

Then someone else with the hunt skill can (once again depending on the level of their skill):

>hunt
>You notice a mild disturbance on the ground.

>uncover tracks
>You pause to take a closer look at the tracks.

Or how about:

>hunt
>Something appears to be recently buried here.

Is this hard to implement? Thoughts? Ideas? Flames?
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Riev on August 11, 2017, 11:34:33 AM
I think it would require more information being saved to the room info, which may or may not be an easy sweeping change.

So far as the new commands, I like where you're going with them. A skilled hunter would probably know how to cover their tracks, BUT hunt usually comes off a skill, or goes into a skill, that kind of accomplishes the same thing. It takes a skilled hunter to notice another skilled hunter trying not to be tracked.

I think hunt being the new Search would be great, a la:

Something seems to have been recently buried here
or
Something about the <keyword> seems out of place
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: roughneck on August 11, 2017, 11:41:54 AM
I don't think it gives enough info quickly enough.

If someone just rode across a bunch of sand on a day without wind, I should be able to follow the trail without stopping every room to use the skill.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: The Lonely Hunter on August 11, 2017, 11:49:59 AM
A 'track' skill branched from hunt would be neat. Once you see tracks from hunt you can 'track' them, seeing the same tracks in adjacent rooms based on skill and allowing you to follow your prey faster because you don't have to dismount and hunt so often.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Delirium on August 11, 2017, 11:56:30 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52265.0.html
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: TheGoose on August 11, 2017, 02:06:10 PM
I don't think it gives enough info quickly enough.

If someone just rode across a bunch of sand on a day without wind, I should be able to follow the trail without stopping every room to use the skill.

Hunt needs buffs, not nerfs. It's also dumb that a group has to send someone ahead just to read tracks, just because there's a finite number of tracks that can be in a room. You should have a chance to see all tracks that haven't timed out (or been deliberately obscured), IMO.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Riev on August 11, 2017, 02:12:21 PM
I don't think it gives enough info quickly enough.

If someone just rode across a bunch of sand on a day without wind, I should be able to follow the trail without stopping every room to use the skill.

Hunt needs buffs, not nerfs. It's also dumb that a group has to send someone ahead just to read tracks, just because there's a finite number of tracks that can be in a room. You should have a chance to see all tracks that haven't timed out (or been deliberately obscured), IMO.

I feel like this would go along with the "Track" ability. Hunt can tell you that something is out of place. Footsteps in the sand, maybe a hidden door in the rock wall that juts out a bit, blood droplets on a nearby leaf. Track would be taking that one instance, and trying to follow. So hunt would give a numbered list of tracks, and if you track "long.stride" you can auto-hunt in the next room and get a message of whether you kept the trail, or need to re-hunt.

I don't know how it'd work codedly, but it'd make more sense than trying to hunt someone down who can move faster. If a tembo can do it, I can do it!
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Inks on August 11, 2017, 02:19:57 PM
Hunt is powerful, hunt is strong. Imms can usually answer what  sort of attack killed a dude with a request,for you budding film noir fans out there!
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Riev on August 11, 2017, 02:24:56 PM
Hunt is powerful, hunt is strong. Imms can usually answer what  sort of attack killed a dude with a request,for you budding film noir fans out there!

No offense to the staff, but I'd rather not have to rely on a request that on average takes 4-7 days to get answered, to find out how someone died. Especially if its something I could do, codedly.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: whitt on August 11, 2017, 03:15:41 PM
Hunt is powerful, hunt is strong. Imms can usually answer what  sort of attack killed a dude with a request,for you budding film noir fans out there!

Given the delay on hunt versus the delay on movement, tracking is pretty useless unless you're looking for a corpse or a plot object that isn't entirely bent on escape.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Molten Heart on August 11, 2017, 03:37:43 PM
If this is my own personal code request list, I'd want hunt to have the max number of hunt messages be expanded beyond five, especially if there will be more possible messages (which I think would be fine additions also).
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Miradus on August 11, 2017, 03:39:16 PM
I would have hunt lock on targets so you automatically followed a track when you entered into the next room.

Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: nauta on August 11, 2017, 03:55:34 PM
So here's my thoughts.

1. I think more forensic-style echoes would be super awesome for Clue: Armageddon Edition.

2. I think that the current hunt dynamic works just fine in a cat-and-mouse chase in the wilds, and I'd be reserved to make it /easier/ for someone hunting you to catch you.  Currently, you have to use hunt in combination with your knowledge of the landscape to catch someone who is avoiding you.  If hunt were made easier or quicker, I think it would tip too much in favor of the hunter over the hunted.  That's my opinion at least, and it's arguable. 

3. I wouldn't mind not having to hop off my mount each time, however.

4. Eliminate the 4-track limit.  The room is a league by a league; hene four Bynners aren't going to 'cover up' the tracks of the hunted.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Kankfly on August 11, 2017, 11:18:30 PM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52265.0.html

Oh wow! This is neat. Great minds think alike. ;)

I love the 'track' idea, and how it branches off from hunt. I think the idea isn't to buff hunt, but to elaborate on it. I'm not really sure how you can fix someone just spam riding/running/etc 100+ rooms away by the time you're tracking him down, but maybe with the 'track' skill, it'll be much easier to catch up to that someone. Which leads to the 'disguise' and/or 'cover' tracks ideas.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Morrolan on August 12, 2017, 02:14:06 AM
I'd love to see the number of tracks (tracks, battle, charge, trample, forage, etc.) be large, and the fading be dynamic based on environmental factors and type.

E.g. walking tracks fade in 2 hours in a sandstorm, running tracks in 3, but they don't fade at all indoors, and only very slowly on a calm night.

Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Delirium on August 12, 2017, 02:51:04 AM
I'd love to see the number of tracks (tracks, battle, charge, trample, forage, etc.) be large, and the fading be dynamic based on environmental factors and type.

E.g. walking tracks fade in 2 hours in a sandstorm, running tracks in 3, but they don't fade at all indoors, and only very slowly on a calm night.

a++
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: shadeoux on August 12, 2017, 05:39:24 PM
I would have hunt lock on targets so you automatically followed a track when you entered into the next room.

This, Tracking someone takes so long now, if track was triggered like scan does, for HIGH level rangers scan, you see tracks going blah blah blah, you make tracking easier for the follower than the runner. The runner doesn't need to know where they are going they already do know what direction they are running.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Molten Heart on August 12, 2017, 07:29:47 PM
If hunt were like scan and toggled with tracks being visible at the end of a room description, that would be cool.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on August 12, 2017, 09:56:58 PM
I like the idea...It would be cool to implement some expanded options to hunt as well as the track ability.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: shadeoux on August 13, 2017, 01:36:35 AM
I like the idea...It would be cool to implement some expanded options to hunt as well as the track ability.

Similar to forage?
Hunt Human
Hunt Giant
Hunt Clawed
Hunt Dwarf
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Synthesis on August 13, 2017, 02:14:09 AM
Hunt is already super gamey and way more effective than would be realistic in most circumstances, in my opinion.  I'd be okay with a few additional features to add some miscellaneous information, but not anything that would make tracking faster.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: TheGoose on August 14, 2017, 10:17:33 AM
I'd love to see the number of tracks (tracks, battle, charge, trample, forage, etc.) be large, and the fading be dynamic based on environmental factors and type.

E.g. walking tracks fade in 2 hours in a sandstorm, running tracks in 3, but they don't fade at all indoors, and only very slowly on a calm night.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Riev on August 14, 2017, 10:21:55 AM
I would like a new walking speed, called "backwards" where I take a massive hit to movement speed, but my tracks are reversed.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Miradus on August 14, 2017, 01:25:20 PM

Most of the problems with hunt stem from the size of the gameworld.

You want to track down someone and kill him? He's 20 rooms from safety in almost any direction on a mount which can normally go 30 rooms before being exhausted.

When you couple that with the limitation of having to dismount and manually track in each room, plus the efficacy of even the master hunt skill at deducing whose tracks are whose when everyone rides a beetle ... you're not going to track someone down who knows you are coming unless they want you to or they made a serious misstep.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Kryos on August 14, 2017, 03:24:16 PM

Most of the problems with hunt stem from the size of the gameworld.

You want to track down someone and kill him? He's 20 rooms from safety in almost any direction on a mount which can normally go 30 rooms before being exhausted.

When you couple that with the limitation of having to dismount and manually track in each room, plus the efficacy of even the master hunt skill at deducing whose tracks are whose when everyone rides a beetle ... you're not going to track someone down who knows you are coming unless they want you to or they made a serious misstep.

I disagree entirely here.  In more than one instance, I've had characters use hunt to track down one of mine literally from Tuluk to Allank and somewhere in the city.  Delf and not, before extended sub guilds and after.  Through sandstorms, and using various means to try and throw off someone.  Hunt is insanely powerful.  So much so, that some of the most powerful guilds(at least pre changes) have abilities designed to thwart it due to the fact it turns you into a homing missile.  Against someone with hunt, you can run, but you cannot hide. 
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: nauta on August 14, 2017, 03:32:16 PM
I still think the current hunt dynamic is just right.  It takes time to hunt, and a clever prey can wear the hunter out pretty quickly.

That said, the biggest problem will be the fact that the game world has only so many places to hide, and the hunter can make some pretty easy inferences as to where the prey is going and just cut straight there (e.g., Tuluk).

But if you have a pretty clever prey, they can screw the hunter over, and ambush them instead.

For the most part, however, hunting-hunted interactions almost always end up with the prey reaching a safe spot.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: TheGoose on August 14, 2017, 03:47:21 PM

--

I disagree entirely here.  In more than one instance, I've had characters use hunt to track down one of mine literally from Tuluk to Allank and somewhere in the city.  Delf and not, before extended sub guilds and after.  Through sandstorms, and using various means to try and throw off someone.  Hunt is insanely powerful.  So much so, that some of the most powerful guilds(at least pre changes) have abilities designed to thwart it due to the fact it turns you into a homing missile.  Against someone with hunt, you can run, but you cannot hide.

That doesn't seem possible from what I've seen. If there is a version of hunt that works in cities at all without a, frankly, silly and twinkish amount of spamming the 'hunt' command, it's something specific to a certain guild/subguild combo. But I doubt that exists at all. With all due respect and no venom intended, I believe that you are exaggerating.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Kryos on August 14, 2017, 03:49:50 PM

--

I disagree entirely here.  In more than one instance, I've had characters use hunt to track down one of mine literally from Tuluk to Allank and somewhere in the city.  Delf and not, before extended sub guilds and after.  Through sandstorms, and using various means to try and throw off someone.  Hunt is insanely powerful.  So much so, that some of the most powerful guilds(at least pre changes) have abilities designed to thwart it due to the fact it turns you into a homing missile.  Against someone with hunt, you can run, but you cannot hide.

That doesn't seem possible from what I've seen. If there is a version of hunt that works in cities at all without a, frankly, silly and twinkish amount of spamming the skills, it's something specific to a certain guild/subguild combo. But I doubt that exists at all. With all do respect and no venom intended, I believe that you are exaggerating.

There is no hyperbole in my statement. 
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Riev on August 14, 2017, 03:54:51 PM
And I definitely believe it can happen. Some combinations could allow for city and wilderness hunting.

It requires no twinking.

Some city-stealth classes SPECIFICALLY get a city-based hunt.

Tracking someone from one city to the next could be relatively easy, if you know what you're looking for. Did they stop at every room? Maybe not. Maybe they stopped in places they assume you'd bunker down, hunted, confirmed you were headed South, and determined you are headed to Allanak. So they get to Allanak, and start checking for signs of you there, especially in places not frequented often by PCs.

Now. I have issues with city hunt, since its more like virtual paying off people to tell you if they see a certain person or not, since you can't tell one person's passing from a virtual person, but that's another story. The fact is, codedly, it does work, and requires no magick.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Miradus on August 14, 2017, 04:15:04 PM

City hunt is an entirely different issue.

I'm talking about a wilderness based character trying to catch someone in the wilderness. It's hard to do. If I pick up someone's tracks in, say, the Grasslands, and he's got a headstart on me, then he's likely to make it to Morin's or Luir's easily before I can catch him.

I'm talking about using hunt for PK activity. It's just really poorly designed to facilitate that.

Except, apparently, that magic combo that can do it both in the wilderness and the city.



Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Kryos on August 14, 2017, 04:35:39 PM
I am explicitly avoiding details that shouldn't be discussed, I hope everyone else does.

Locking on a PvP target(or skirting/shadowing outdoors) while staying outside, hunt is still extremely strong.  I've used it for these purposes many times to success.  Combine this with the recent follow changes and there's little more one needs.  All sorts of conditionals apply, of course, but at worst I consider it a great skill that does not need any help. 
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: lostinspace on August 14, 2017, 07:34:49 PM
If I pick up someone's tracks in, say, the Grasslands, and he's got a headstart on me, then he's likely to make it to Morin's or Luir's easily before I can catch him.

Shouldn't they get away when they have a head start though?

I feel like putting the track results in the room desc. is pretty strong, especially seeing as hunt is pretty painless to use outside of dismounting/mounting repeatedly.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: TheGoose on August 15, 2017, 12:01:04 AM
I feel like putting the track results in the room desc. is pretty strong, especially seeing as hunt is pretty painless to use outside of dismounting/mounting repeatedly.

Fair enough.

What if tracking at a glance like that wasn't 100% reliable? What if doing that is likely to give false or misleading information?
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Kankfly on August 15, 2017, 12:34:09 AM
What if you balance the tracking idea -with- the disguising tracks idea? Not just one but both, and both are dependent on your hunt skill. Right now it seems the discussion is more focused on "track" alone.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: TheGoose on August 15, 2017, 12:40:49 AM
What if you balance the tracking idea -with- the disguising tracks idea? Not just one but both, and both are dependent on your hunt skill. Right now it seems the discussion is more focused on "track" alone.

Yeah, that.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Vox on August 15, 2017, 01:44:37 AM
I feel hunt sometimes gives a bit too little information. Wouldn't it be cool if you can:

>hunt
Someone has butchered a carcass less than a day/a few days/etc ago.

(Yes, I think i suggested that in another thread but thought I'd start a new thread anyway.)

Or, depending on the level of your skill, you can:

>hide tracks
>You start to cover up your tracks...
>You dust sand over your tracks and cover them up.

Or maybe even:

>disguise tracks (direction)

Then someone else with the hunt skill can (once again depending on the level of their skill):

>hunt
>You notice a mild disturbance on the ground.

>uncover tracks
>You pause to take a closer look at the tracks.

Or how about:

>hunt
>Something appears to be recently buried here.

Is this hard to implement? Thoughts? Ideas? Flames?

I really like these ideas. It adds functionality in a way that broadens hunt's uses in realistic ways.
Perhaps disguise tracks would be something that branches at a high level of hunt with a % chance for scan/hunt to detect the ruse.
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Molten Heart on August 18, 2017, 04:47:31 PM
Some way to lay down fake tracks would be interesting.

https://www.littlethings.com/prohibition-cow-shoes
Title: Re: Hunt!
Post by: Kankfly on August 19, 2017, 12:03:47 AM
Some way to lay down fake tracks would be interesting.

https://www.littlethings.com/prohibition-cow-shoes

Yes. Tools will be awesome, to disguise one set of tracks into another. Sounds like a MC idea!