Heya folks!
I just wanted to kick up thoughts and ideas about creative ways to keep something IC instead of having to go OOC. I know that this has been discussed before but how about some fresh thoughts and collaboration.
For example, if you need a 10 minutes RL for something instead of "OOC 10 min quick, need cig break!" how about something like "I need an hour to prepare, pardon me." or "Gimme an' hour to sharpen my blades."?
Ideas, examples, flames?
I've seen something similar for when people need to quit - they say they have "gate duty" and such. There seems to be an understanding by the players that sometimes IRL stuff interrupts things. Hence the adoption of the term "krathstruck", too.
The OOC/GONE commands are useful but I see them used in a way I personally feel is inappropriate. For instance - I really don't care WHY you are AFK for a moment. The more information you include, the more out of the scene you draw everyone else. Simply "afk a few minutes" suffices.
I'll admit I use the OOC command to say "AFK a few" instead of the GONE command, but with very few coded exceptions, the result is the same. Short and sweet, and hopefully not too scene-wrecking.
If you need to be gone for more than a few minutes, if you're in a place where you can safely log out, I'd rather see you just log out, and log back in when you're done doing whatever you're doing.
I'm more nitpicky about that, than I am about coming up with IC explanations for an OOC situation.
I try keeping it as IC as possible.
If I need to handle something RL, 'help time' helps a lot. Since 1 IG hour = 10 RL mins, 1 IG day = 1 RL hour etc, I normally just go: I gotta handle something for an hour/a day/a couple of hours/half a day/a couple of days/etc. Get in touch with you later. Same with logging off.
Then if I get dced from the game, I normally go: Shit, sorry! I went krathstruck! Did you say anything to me? Usually, the other player gets it, and will repeat whatever he/she/it said back at me.
There's moments where you -have- to OOC though, such as when you need to set up time with the other player, or if there's questions about syntax, etc. Otherwise, I keep it as IC as possible.
Sometimes, there are new players to the gamet, so you can always gently remind them to keep the OOCing as little as possible.
Just don't ooc. Like, at all. Ever. Just pretend the command does not even exist. If someone says, "When are you available (OOC: I'm available 8-10 EST)" you read the time helpfile and you break it down into days and hours.
If someone asks you a question OOC, don't answer it. If someone asks you anything, ignore it.
The only case in which I might make an exception would be IF it was a newbie, AND you were alone with them. Otherwise, point them to helper chat or extract them from an area in which they are around others.
Past that, you can OOC if you are about to skin someone alive and need permission.
I used to keep it super in game, but then I waste a bunch of time explaining myself when I really need to go. To the point it makes it more jarring than if I just ooc, or gone afk. "I need to take care of some things, be back in an hour or two."...'What things?'..."You know stuff for the house"...'That can wait.'
I've had lots of in game conversations that went like that. I still try to keep it ic usually, but it depends on how intrusive the people with me are.
I agree with Samoa. The less said the better.
Also, to those of you who decide to correct minor typos through OOC, I wish you would not. It just makes you look self conscious and persnickety. Also, I rarely notice the typo until you take the time to point it out.
It doesn't bother me one way or the other, but what does bother me is when someone does an IC thing and I'm left wondering if it is code for I have to log out or if they are just ditching my PC.
This isn't a big deal, except when you have situations where you can't ditch. To that end, I always try to think of some very explicit way of signalling the other player that, yes, I am logging out right now because of RL.
So in the military clans, you have Gate Sarge, who trumps all other PCs. That's simple.
Shady types I just type 'hide'.
Tribals/elves: it's /mother/ and she wants me home /now/.
More awkward are aides. I've never thought of a good way of telling my Lord/Lady that I have to leave. One suggestion was to appeal to another Lord/Lady in the House, but... you know... I'm not /their/ aide. Maybe I should join the Atrium and find out how to log out as an aide.
Excusing aides:
One way I've handled that in the past is to come up with a code phrase with the noble through PM on the GDB. So once when I was a whatsit for Fale, I would explain that there was some dramatic gossip I simply had to look into and the noble would swiftly excuse my aide from any social gathering, regardless of circumstance.
Another time I worked with a noble who had children, and we agreed privately that just about any reference to them would be reason to excuse my aide.
I would think that asking to be excused would work too as a base thing. If they ask why, as an aide, you should have tasks they have set for you, so you could very vaguely refer to having to deal with one of them in some way or some made up thing.
Quote from: Samoa on August 03, 2017, 11:39:59 PM
Just don't ooc. Like, at all. Ever. Just pretend the command does not even exist. If someone says, "When are you available (OOC: I'm available 8-10 EST)" you read the time helpfile and you break it down into days and hours.
If someone asks you a question OOC, don't answer it. If someone asks you anything, ignore it.
The only case in which I might make an exception would be IF it was a newbie, AND you were alone with them. Otherwise, point them to helper chat or extract them from an area in which they are around others.
Past that, you can OOC if you are about to skin someone alive and need permission.
Actually, for RPTs, I don't think that's a really good idea. I like confirming time OOC just to be sure since time conversion from OOC to IC is hard - especially for someone bad at math like me. If there's something scheduled an RL week from now, and you don't know who is the player playing that character, it will be extremely hard to coordinate.
There are times when you just
have to use OOC IG. But how can you tell if it's excessive use of OOC or not?
Here are examples of the excessive use of OOC:
Example One:
ooc I'll brb. I gotta water those plants. Those plants aren't going to water themselves you know! I mean especially the roses. It's so hard to tend roses in winter! Does anyone know any good tips on that? But lololol don't tell me that yet! Let me brb first.
Example Two:
ooc Omg did anyone SEE THAT? It's a BIG GIANT ROC WITH GREEN AND RED FEATHERS! Am I seeing things? Is this a game bug? Seriously am I the only one that sees this thing? What's going on, guys? SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME!
Example Three:
ooc Lol oops I mean the OTHER GUY!
ooc sry not shit, I mean shift***
Example Four:
ooc soz guys, gotta go. nice rping with you guys.
For example one, I'm not saying that typing 'gone afk' or 'ooc afk' is too oocly excessive, but I don't think people are interested in knowing
why you're going afk, especially since it's unrelated to IC.
It's sad to say that I've also witnessed example two. If you think it's a bug, the best way to go about it is use the 'bug' command (help bug), wish up, or put in a request to the imms. In the meantime, RP out your PC's reactions, unless someone tells you to cut it out.
Example three can be easily fixed by redoing the emote with the correct spelling/target. Whenever I see 'so and so says out of character', my mind automatically hits the pause button on the RP, and it's now switched to OOC zone. This is just a small thing, but little tweaks like that all contribute to the RP atmosphere. There really isn't anything more jarring than when you are in an intense scene and someone oocs: "LOL! Wrong target/Oops, I mean assassin**" or just plain "loses*".
Example four can be easily translated to IC, like what some have suggested before me. "Going to gate"/"need some rest"/"Wall duty"/etc are all great IC excuses for logging off.
Favorite gone message:
ooc omg guys gtg a tent just flew up onto my roof
then they quit
The best IC excuse for AFK-ness is needing to take a nice, long shit.
say (loosening ^me breeches and rushing off) Feck! I feel a big one comin'. Musta been all the peppers.
If I have to go, I'm OOCing it for the most part. If I try to make an IC excuse that I have to leave I can be held accountable IC for something I can't control OOC.
I don't get hung up about this. And I try not to play repeatedly with people who do get hung up on it. They're going to already freak out when I get caught up in the moment and say something. This game has more than enough roleplay police without the self-appointed ones.
I'm really only going to draw the line if someone wants to spend 20 minutes using OOC to tell me about their dog's birthday party or something.
If I have to leave a scene, and its intense/emotional/important (especially behind closed doors), I'm OOCing that I need to leave.
If I'm alone at the bar, I'm not putting in a gone message.
If we're trying to plan time together, I'm going to OOC tomorrow at 8pm. I'm not going to say "ON THIS DAY, BUT IN ONE WEEK, EXCEPT SUBTRACT A DAY OR TWO, AND THEN.. MAYBE AN HOUR AFTER". It sounds stupid, and its more jarring to have to interpret the meaning than get the information you're supposed to have.
This is a game. I have a life that occasionally gets in the way of my playing it. Sometimes I get a phone call, or a sudden meeting, or I'm told we're going out for dinner. I feel I owe it to the people in the scene I'm engaged in to know that I, the player, am leaving. It isn't the PC who got bored, or has things to do, there's nothing to worry on. If I, the player, had the time to continue the PC would still be engaged in the scene.
I mostly try to keep it IC except for dates/times. Times are that one thing that the work arounds are too complicated, awkward, and open to misinterpretation. What is "late in the week"? What is "every third week but once or twice every fourth week early in the week"?
Does early mean 1 am or 7 am? It's just too confusing and it kicks me out more trying to pin down details than a brief OOC.
I also can't recall a time that I was ever penalized IC for giving an IC excuse to leave, and I'm pretty sure that most players understand that "urgent business/gotta poo" is just handwavium for having to log out.
I've found that most people's use of OOC is sparing and doesn't grind my gears. Typo correction makes me roll my eyes but it doesn't take me out of the game. Knowing that you're AFK to smoke versus knowing that you're AFK generally doesn't take me out of the game more one way than another, but it does give me an idea of how long I can expect you to be gone. I think most people are pretty responsible about not overly using OOC. But I find that the tried and true AFK excuses work the best. Krathstruck, wall duty, dizzy a minute, etc.
I HAVE been prone to minor OOC conversations, depending on the scene and the comfort level of the characters involved, but sometimes its bordered on unnecessary.
Keeping it simple, is fine, but because of my playstyle and level of immersion, I'm not broken up by someone using an OOC channel for something. Some of you are great at being IN your character, into your thinks and feels and story, and sometimes having to think in OOC terms is jarring. Its a curse, I'm sure.
I honestly don't care whether you care if I'm OOC walking the dog or "gone bathroom". I'm letting you know the time its going to take before I respond, so you don't take time out of YOUR playtime waiting on my ass to finish with RL things. If I'm in an apartment or in a scene where I could reasonably be attacked? I'm going to let them know I'm away from the keyboard for <x> time so I can properly RP the scene when I'm back.
And if someone is using it too much? Just send in a player complaint, and let staff bring it up to them (IN A NICE, CORDIAL MANNER, PLEASE). Staff are great with complaints, and its less of a 'complaint' and more of a "neighborhood watch". We don't need GDB threads complaining about how people use OOC communication.
To be fair to the OP, I don't think this was intended to be a complaint thread, I think it just went that way.
As for correcting a typo, instead of ooc (which doesn't bother me), you might try just doing something like:
say So there I was with my rock in my hand...
say (coughing into a fist) I meant sock, not rock.
Although for the most part, I leave it alone unless it's a /very/ jarring mistake, more jarring than the correction.
On emotes, I will sometimes redo the whole emote (rarely), and sometimes do:
em said that to ~bob not ~george, obviously
Quote from: valeria on August 04, 2017, 11:02:06 AM
To be fair to the OP, I don't think this was intended to be a complaint thread, I think it just went that way.
Its an early, angry morning. I was just meaning more of "A reminder is great, but if its actually a problem, letting staff have the opportunity to check in is much better than vague-booking".
I also do like Nauta does, if the typo is glaring, or targeting the wrong person/object.
I tend to find contrived excuses for something that's blatantly an OOC issue more jarring than an actual simple OOC.
An OOC newbie channel would solve a lot of problems. 90% of the time I see an OOC it's newer players needing help or getting the hang of things or feeling the need to apologize for something. They aren't used to the very IC nature of the game yet.
Also: Nothing wrong with a good old OOC whisper now and then.
whi newbie (OOCly) What's your number?
But I gotta agree, sometimes working things out in IC terms is more jarring than a simple and judicious OOC.
If I wanted to talk to anyone OOC, I'd be in IRC/Discord talking to them OOC. Barring staff members interacting with one another, the in-game is not a vehicle for learning about one another, it's a vehicle for learning about one another's characters.
I have never, in just barely under two decades on and off of playing this game, not even once, seen someone penalised for making up an excuse for having to go.
Furthermore, I don't think 'gone' is appropriate in most cases either. I would only use it if I was (ostensibly) alone and wanted to inform staff. It's jarring and disruptive and I don't want to see it.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 04, 2017, 04:19:57 PM
An OOC newbie channel would solve a lot of problems. 90% of the time I see an OOC it's newer players needing help or getting the hang of things or feeling the need to apologize for something. They aren't used to the very IC nature of the game yet.
There is an OOC newbie channel, and it's located on the front page of the website with a golden mantis offering help.
Quote from: nauta on August 04, 2017, 04:26:05 PM
Also: Nothing wrong with a good old OOC whisper now and then.
whi newbie (OOCly) What's your number?
But I gotta agree, sometimes working things out in IC terms is more jarring than a simple and judicious OOC.
Also, sorry to just shotgun posts, but yes, there is something wrong with it. It's not using the OOC command. Do not use psi, whisper, tell, or anything else to communicate things OOC. You use the OOC command.
Quote from: Samoa on August 04, 2017, 04:42:34 PM
Quote from: nauta on August 04, 2017, 04:26:05 PM
Also: Nothing wrong with a good old OOC whisper now and then.
whi newbie (OOCly) What's your number?
But I gotta agree, sometimes working things out in IC terms is more jarring than a simple and judicious OOC.
Also, sorry to just shotgun posts, but yes, there is something wrong with it. It's not using the OOC command. Do not use psi, whisper, tell, or anything else to communicate things OOC. You use the OOC command.
You can't use the OOC command when your non-clan boss is waying you from another part of the game world, asking you to arrange a meeting with a bunch of other people and his player only has a few available login timeframes for the meeting. You don't have access to clan boards - since you're not in a clan that has clan boards. You don't know the player, so you can't PM them. OOC doesn't work remote, and you, the player, need to know what that timeframe is. Tuesdays or Thursdays starting 7, or Saturday any time afternoon - doesn't translate well over the Way, nor should it. This is time for *players* to coordinate a login, to determine *player* availability. Because virtually, our characters don't log out.
Quote from: Samoa on August 04, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 04, 2017, 04:19:57 PM
An OOC newbie channel would solve a lot of problems. 90% of the time I see an OOC it's newer players needing help or getting the hang of things or feeling the need to apologize for something. They aren't used to the very IC nature of the game yet.
There is an OOC newbie channel, and it's located on the front page of the website with a golden mantis offering help.
It's a great tool. It would be even better if it was tied to the in-game client. Have it default to off if you're past your first character if you find the idea bothersome.
Along the same theme as OP, you can also try to not break into ooc even when helping newbs.
Here's what I tend to do if it's clear they don't know the command:
say You might consider -scanning- the horizon for dangers.
say I'd recommend that you -hitch- your mount when you unstable them, and make sure you -rent- that mount back up.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 04, 2017, 05:42:10 PM
Quote from: Samoa on August 04, 2017, 04:42:34 PM
Quote from: nauta on August 04, 2017, 04:26:05 PM
Also: Nothing wrong with a good old OOC whisper now and then.
whi newbie (OOCly) What's your number?
But I gotta agree, sometimes working things out in IC terms is more jarring than a simple and judicious OOC.
Also, sorry to just shotgun posts, but yes, there is something wrong with it. It's not using the OOC command. Do not use psi, whisper, tell, or anything else to communicate things OOC. You use the OOC command.
You can't use the OOC command when your non-clan boss is waying you from another part of the game world, asking you to arrange a meeting with a bunch of other people and his player only has a few available login timeframes for the meeting. You don't have access to clan boards - since you're not in a clan that has clan boards. You don't know the player, so you can't PM them. OOC doesn't work remote, and you, the player, need to know what that timeframe is. Tuesdays or Thursdays starting 7, or Saturday any time afternoon - doesn't translate well over the Way, nor should it. This is time for *players* to coordinate a login, to determine *player* availability. Because virtually, our characters don't log out.
No clan boards, no PM'ing, and no OOC'ing sounds ideal.
Sorry. I have kids who routinely break stuff or themselves. My character isn't spacy, so she wouldn't doze off and stare at nothing, and you only get one ooc emergency quit until you log off in a quit room again.
I love keeping shit IC. But i also need a scene to pause if I have to tend to something in real life. I guess if you don't like that, you can opt not to play with me.
I'm not sorry for using gone or ooc. Sometimes I don't have time to come up with an excuse. Sometimes the excuse that does pop into my head is worse than ooc or gone. I would rather see a quick "gone afk" than "I need to stand here and be krath-struck for a while" or "I must rest my mind."
I'm also not sorry for doing ooc psis. I'd use the ooc command if you were in the room with me, but you aren't.
I have seen a couple jarring oocs over the years, and maybe been jarring myself a few times. But telling someone you need to go afk isn't an example of that. If we're in the mood for cracking down, let's crack down on something that actually matters.
Quote from: sleepyhead on August 04, 2017, 07:06:29 PM
But telling someone you need to go afk isn't an example of that.
It isn't an example of that
to you. You have multiple other responses in this thread with people telling you in clear terms that, yes, they do find that jarring and disruptive.
If someone is 'abusing' the OOC command in-game, you file a player complaint.
It's kind of like the healthy snack test: if you want to snack on something, but it's not like, celery or something, then you're not hungry, you're just bored. If you want to complain about someone but don't feel like reporting it, it's not a complaint, you're just annoyed about something reasonable.
Okay. And some people, like me, find "I have to be krath-struck for a while" jarring and disruptive. (Yes, better IC excuses can be made, but often there isn't time.) Since it's a matter of opinion which is worse, maybe we should both just accept that picking one of these things is a necessary evil and sometimes things can't be ideal.
Quote from: Kialae on August 04, 2017, 07:54:07 PM
If someone is 'abusing' the OOC command in-game, you file a player complaint.
It's kind of like the healthy snack test: if you want to snack on something, but it's not like, celery or something, then you're not hungry, you're just bored. If you want to complain about someone but don't feel like reporting it, it's not a complaint, you're just annoyed about something reasonable.
Except, you know, player complaints are taken super seriously, and you don't really want to file a complaint over something like that. I've witnessed worse behavior than that and I haven't filed a player complaint about any of them. At least, I'd file a complaint something like: Omg this guy is stalking me! Staff, help!
Anyway, the point of this thread isn't to
complain. I think some people posting here are getting the wrong idea of it. The point of this thread is to discuss OOC usage - what counts as excessive OOC and what doesn't. Obviously, everyone has different ideas on what type of OOC is kosher and what type isn't. So I think it's a good place to discuss this topic.
Sadly, threads like these come and go and have always devolved into elitism and passive-aggressive remarks about how one person's method is superior to another's, and then it eventually gets locked or whittles away into obscurity.
If you cant handle a little OOC with your IC?
You arent as good a Roleplayer as you think.
If you cant handle staying as IC as possible?
Same thing dude.
You just need to keep it reasonable is all.
Quote from: Kankfly on August 04, 2017, 08:17:05 PM
Quote from: Kialae on August 04, 2017, 07:54:07 PM
If someone is 'abusing' the OOC command in-game, you file a player complaint.
It's kind of like the healthy snack test: if you want to snack on something, but it's not like, celery or something, then you're not hungry, you're just bored. If you want to complain about someone but don't feel like reporting it, it's not a complaint, you're just annoyed about something reasonable.
Except, you know, player complaints are taken super seriously, and you don't really want to file a complaint over something like that. I've witnessed worse behavior than that and I haven't filed a player complaint about any of them. At least, I'd file a complaint something like: Omg this guy is stalking me! Staff, help!
Anyway, the point of this thread isn't to complain. I think some people posting here are getting the wrong idea of it. The point of this thread is to discuss OOC usage - what counts as excessive OOC and what doesn't. Obviously, everyone has different ideas on what type of OOC is kosher and what type isn't. So I think it's a good place to discuss this topic.
If someone is abusing the OOC functions of the game, please do send in a player complaint. Player complaints don't always have to be the end of the world, sometimes we just ask the player kindly to lay off doing something.
I always imagined that staff* could see every single ooc command anyone ever said in the whole game world, and would frown on anyone using it too liberally. Sometimes you have to go there! But that rule helps to know when it might feel justified vs. being superfluous.
*You could also replace "staff" with your friendly neighborhood sneaky elf of choice, or whatever, if that's more your thing.
When keeping it IC goes wrong
(https://media.giphy.com/media/qfMIchepn953G/giphy.gif)
Like several others, I prefer a quick 'AFK' instead of an IC excuse that isn't necessarily IC. The majority of the time, I don't play characters that would randomly space off or slack on duties to sit and do nothing for 10 minutes. So, for me, it's more IC for me as a player to say 'gone 10 min' rather than make up an excuse.
It would be nice if we could completely disconnect from the OOC world. But, we are human after all. We all live in different places and if you're clanned you need access to docs and playtimes of other players and RPTs.
My suggestions for limiting OOC communication regarding 'gone' and logging off:
1. Have an AFK function, rather than gone, where the only information you give is the number of minutes you anticipate being AFK. That way, you don't have to give a jarring excuse or communicate in any way other than how long you're going to be gone.
2. Have a 'GTG' function that works similarly, where you input how many minutes until you need to log off. (this one is less necessary, but might be beneficial for those that want to make it clear they're not skirting duties or giving someone the cold shoulder).
I also would be interested in seeing clan boards and staff announcements separated from the GDB, or also posted to a separate forum where you don't have to access the bulk of the GDB. I think the boards tend to be the most jarring form of OOC communication for me, and I really only read the announcements, non-Arm discussions, and clan boards for the most part. Threads like this I just tend to ignore because they have a tendency to devolve rather quickly (which is sad because they do have merit).
What about something like this (in line with OPs suggestion for ideas). So in this case, you are a minion at attention or whatever and you just HAVE to go, but you don't want to break the scene going on with some silly IC excuse or an OOC.
em while remaining at attention, me sort of just blends into the background, becoming one of the virtual soldiers standing at attention in the room.
s (oocly)
quit ooc the roof, the roof, the roof is on fiyah
I dunno if that's /too/ much of a stretch though.
Quote from: nauta on August 05, 2017, 10:14:29 AM
What about something like this (in line with OPs suggestion for ideas). So in this case, you are a minion at attention or whatever and you just HAVE to go, but you don't want to break the scene going on with some silly IC excuse or an OOC.
em while remaining at attention, me sort of just blends into the background, becoming one of the virtual soldiers standing at attention in the room.
[b][u]s (oocly)[/u][/b]
quit ooc the roof, the roof, the roof is on fiyah
I feel that it's better to just ooc gotta go, then quit ooc. Otherwise you're just drawing even more attention to the fact that you're about to log out. I disagree with the idea of using "oocly" as you suggested above in the bold and underlined line. Movement, emotes, talks, says, are all IC activities for your character, not an opportunity to remind everyone that you're being ooc.
I think the Way is pretty much the ONLY exception to that, and that's only because there exists no other way to OOC someone who isn't standing in the same room or in shouting distance as you. And even then - using the way for OOC is awkward, at best. If you -do- determine that you need to use OOC over the Way, just assume that there's at least one mindbender being subjected to your psis. Do you really think it's fair to them, to have an entire ooc conversation in front of them?
I wish there were a way for players to [send] remote oocs to other people in the game, as long as they are already in psionic contact with them.
Basically, I'm suggesting to keep ALL reference to OOC to an absolute minimum, avoid it entirely if you can.
My personal opinion in that as long as OOC keeps to staments, its fine. Its when it turns into a back and forth conversation, does it feel jarring. But actual statements? I myself am just fine. Ooc: gtg. Bye. Ooc:the event starts in 2 hours. X pm est.
I personally am fine with that.
Yep.
While I am still hardline against OOC being used at all, I could compromise on supporting a targeted OOC command that only the two people involved can see happened - like 'oocto' or something - in hopes that it would result in less visible OOC use in general.
Keeping it IC when possible
Keeping it IC when possible
Keeping it IC when possible
If you really want to hardline 0% tolerance on any OOC under any circumstances then you're more than welcome to go play alone where no one can ever interact with you. You're more than welcome to also say things like "We will deliver this silk shirt to you in one year, two months and nine days so make sure you are outside the House Dvorak gates at dawn then." I'm still going to quickly OOC What is that in server time? Thank you.
The helpfile (http://armageddon.org/help/view/OOC) seems to be under the impression that such usage is extraneous and unnecessary:
QuoteTry to use the ooc command as little as possible, preferably never. Imagine what a movie would be like if the actors and actresses kept breaking out of their roles all the time--the movie would be awful.
You're over-exaggerating your example in order to make an intentionally ludicrous mock-up, when I know you've been here plenty long enough to know that that isn't how it works or gets used.
Will it be RL tomorrow? Great. "I'll have your shirt next week."
Will it be an RL week? Also no problem. "I'll have your shirt in a half-month or so, the crafters will need some time for the finer detailing."
Will it be an RL month? Also no issue. "I should have that shirt for you in just about two months or so, we're waiting on some finer dyes to arrive in the warehouse and our crafters are a bit backed up."
Not only have these conventions been in place for as long as both of us have been playing, they're now even outlined in the helpfile for time:
Real Time -> Zalanthan Time
10 RL mins = 1 ZT hour
1 RL day = 16 ZT days
1 RL week = ~0.5 ZT month
1 RL month = ~2 ZT months
1 RL year = ~8.5 ZT years
Zalanthan Time -> Real Time
1 ZT hour = 10 RL mins
1 ZT day = 90 RL mins
1 ZT week = 16.5 RL hours
1 ZT month = ~2 RL weeks
1 ZT year = ~43 RL daysThey're readily accessible to everyone. If we're going to just shrug our shoulders and let people ignore IC terminology in favour of OOC convenience, why don't we go ahead and soften things up for new players and start renaming all the plants and animals to more-easily-parsed equivalents, too? Do we not do that because it's jarring? This is no different.
(ready some time next week, and right this moment it's 9PM pacific time) I'll have your shirt in a half-month or so.
(...except next week I have RL appointments most of the day - however I will be available between 7 & 8 PM that evening) = Oh I can pick it up hm - in a half month, except two days earlier than today, and no later than one day earlier than now.
(can't be logged in during that particular hour to deliver the shirt but the next RL day I'm open): Hm, what about the following week?
(only between noon and 3, pacific time) Uh...actually...
ooc Sunday between noon-3 pacific
The limited use of OOC is one of the things I like most about Arm. Sometimes people use it unnecessarily, but I figure they just don't know better. Here's my opinion on some of the OOC's I've seen in game:
(names removed to protect the innocent)
"can't use speach in emotes here, :)"
"Use "say" or "tell" for speech. You can yse Say (emote stuff here) to say stuff
This stuff is obviously newbie help. Often it can't be helped and shouldn' tbe discouraged. But when I'm with newbies who are screwing up and I'm in a position where I can give OOC help, I try to pull them out of the room to cut off the disruptions. ("Hey, come here a second.") My use of OOC went through the roof in leadership roles, but I always tried to insulate other clannies from it when possible.
"you be around later? I need to log for a couple of hours"
Stuff like this you can wrap with IC language. Be consistent with it and people will figure out what you mean. "You going to be around later? I need to do X for a couple days."
"Gotta plug in my comp one sec."
"Just a moment."
If it's going to be super brief, you could emote bending down and retying a bootlace or something. No OOC required.
If it'll be a couple minutes, sparing use of gone works. But I prefer to use gone when I'm alone but someone could stumble upon me (like I'm idling in a tavern or something).
"FYI I'm pretty much gone until June 17th."
This one is trickier, but my call is to come up with an IC excuse (taking care of a sick relative or something) and then say, OOC, 'gone until June 17th'.
"urgh lag"
"think I should log or want to keep playing?"
I don't know if it's still the case, but the T'zai Byn docs used to say if you're lagging, then to say you've got a headache or a sore foot or something. Some people don't like conflating IC with OOC in this way, but I prefer it.
"omg my computer battery died!"
I sympathize, but I don't need to know why you lost link (or why it looks like you just reconnected). Simply ICly blinking yourself back to awareness gives us a place from which to pick things back up.
"I forget the syntax it's make tube spice papers or some crud but I can't
Try to check the help files before you OOC -- even veterans get this one wrong. Or, come up with an IC excuse: "I can't do this right now. Can you roll me a smoke?"
"sorry for ooc"
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
"OOPS redo."
"directed at ~lissome"
"*too"
"*we're"
If you did a typo but what you emoted is still comprehensible, don't bother. I understand!
In situations where you mistargeted and it makes no sense, it can be less disruptive to just splice in the correction and do it again(without the OOC). Or, if you just nodded to the wrong person, you could emote actually shook %black.haired.man hand)
"Stupid pickpockets don't start with <skill>. Its like they just...
Totally unnecessary! Everyone knows not to do this.
Oh. I loathe the typo fixes in OOC. Or the mistargets. Just redo the emote or something. Please.
Anyway, again, I'm gonna use gone. It's just easier to pause a scene, imho, if I'm only going to be less than a few minutes.
Oh I guess a lot of posts happened. Never mind.
I feel terrible because I've done a few of these recently. I promise to do better, folks!
Yeah I use OOC when I make a terrible typo. Or in confusing cases when mis-targeted, or when a newbie has no idea what they're doing. And to make OOC appointments. I have little time to play so I'd rather not try to decipher.
And I use the 'gone' command.
I don't feel bad or guilty about using them. They're there for a reason.
Quote from: Unoei on August 06, 2017, 12:52:57 AM
I feel terrible because I've done a few of these recently. I promise to do better, folks!
Don't get upset about some folks' pet peeves, dude.
If a Staff member hasn't descended from on high to bitch-slap you about abusing OOC, you're probably well within what is generally deemed reasonable enough.
Some of you guys seriously need to chill.
Well, ooc is supposed to be used sparingly. Sparingly isn't when you typo every emote and go to correct it via ooc, lol. For needing to go afk or an ooc factor affecting your ability to be present? I think it's fine.
One time I had an extended back and forth with a player IC. Trying to explain that I wouldn't be online in the next 3 days.
Then I realized it was just going to be 2600% easier to ooc it.
Quote from: tapas on August 06, 2017, 04:15:20 PM
One time I had an extended back and forth with a player IC. Trying to explain that I wouldn't be online in the next 3 days.
Then I realized it was just going to be 2600% easier to ooc it.
Yeah. Like Lizzie's (I think) example above, sometimes OOCing it if it's going to be complex in game is okay to me.
"I'm going to be away taking care of my mother for a few weeks."
"Oh, I'll come help."
Uhh...
Eats popcorn.
eat popcorn (getting buttery goodness all over his mouth and fingers)
Personally, I find environments where I can't have OOC banter with other players to be dry and joyless. Everyone likes different things. Avoid players who play ways you don't like I guess, and they'll hopefully do the same.
You can't have ooc banter anywhere in Armageddon.
Edit to add:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/OOC
Try to use the ooc command as little as possible, preferably never. Imagine what a movie would be like if the actors and actresses kept breaking out of their roles all the time--the movie would be awful. Never ever use the ooc command to convey IC information. This is looked upon very poorly by staff members.
Quote from: TheGoose on August 07, 2017, 05:13:13 PM
Personally, I find environments where I can't have OOC banter with other players to be dry and joyless. Everyone likes different things. Avoid players who play ways you don't like I guess, and they'll hopefully do the same.
OOC "banter" is not allowed in Armageddon. It's against the rules, and this game is an RPI, as opposed to a H&S in part because of this rule.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 07, 2017, 07:01:52 PM
Quote from: TheGoose on August 07, 2017, 05:13:13 PM
Personally, I find environments where I can't have OOC banter with other players to be dry and joyless. Everyone likes different things. Avoid players who play ways you don't like I guess, and they'll hopefully do the same.
OOC "banter" is not allowed in Armageddon. It's against the rules, and this game is an RPI, as opposed to a H&S in part because of this rule.
Which is why nothing stops you from communicating OOCly if you like that kind of banter back and forth. Outside of the game.
I've been known to put "too many details" in an OOC away message before, but this is making it sound like a number of people are having full blown conversations in OOC with other PCs in the room. Which if that was the case, its a Player Complaint so staff can gently remind. If its not happening... are we... literally making a mountain out of a displaced rock?
Quote from: Riev on August 08, 2017, 03:12:18 PM
If its not happening... are we... literally making a mountain out of a displaced rock?
It's the GDB, of course you are.
I'd prefer brief ooc or gone messages because things happen. I consider it a courtesy to me as a person whether my pc should be standing around waiting or not. If I get a gone bathroom, I probably should stick around. If I get OOC My son got bit by a dog! I probably should go do something else. I thought it was implied that's what these things are for.
I think players are doing a good job of letting other players know something's up ooc'ly and ic'ly though.
gone pee break 2 minutes
that should be acceptable to anyone.
anyone.
anyone.
ooc Gone pee break. Sorry. I have a severe bladder infection that runs in my family. My great aunt died from it. She had a dog named Lucinda and we had to take care of it, so I have to make sure I pee regularly or I could get worse and then someone would have to take care of my dog.
omg
Someone, or someones, used to do a lot of 'gone afk bio'. It wasn't until just now that I realized they were signifying pee breaks and not that they were really just super zealous about updating their biographies in game.
I also wanted to add to the discussion that I encourage the use of ooc or at least simplified unambiguous IC cues in cases where you are in large groups and you have to go afk -- signal to your minions or leaders that you are afk and for how long so they too can take a break if they need to. But keep it spartan.
I had a thought related to this topic. when I first log into the game, sometimes after an absence of a day or two, sometimes IC people will say 'where have you been?'
is it considered acceptable to make up stories of adventures my character was virtually having while I was really just working a double shift at starbucks?
'oh, I was out trying to capture a mekillot bare-handed, but I couldn't quite manage it'... etc
Quote from: 650Booger on September 01, 2017, 12:15:26 PM
I had a thought related to this topic. when I first log into the game, sometimes after an absence of a day or two, sometimes IC people will say 'where have you been?'
is it considered acceptable to make up stories of adventures my character was virtually having while I was really just working a double shift at starbucks?
'oh, I was out trying to capture a mekillot bare-handed, but I couldn't quite manage it'... etc
I'd like to hear other opinions, but here's my thought: yes, within reason, but bear in mind two things:
a) what you make up will have IC consequences. So if, for example, your Sergeant asks where you were, and you answer: I was in the brothel, Sarge. That might just be the wrong answer. The better answer would be: I was on Gate.
b) the default assumption, in my opinion, that others should have towards you is not that you were 'away' or 'asleep' but that you were there the whole time, just part of the virtual background. So if you make up a story that jars with that, just make sure you consider that this isn't what people expect.
Related, it is a bit like poweremoting, in my opinion, to make up backstories about /other/ people's absences
In general, I just try to gloss over absences/quitting/afking as much as possible so it doesn't break the flow of the RP.
Agreed with Nauta, wholly.
Some people will say they were visiting a sick father, or were assigned a week's worth of gate duty.
If you're a goody-two-shoes? With a Byn Example, remember that there are other units and warbands. Maybe you were called on as a training dummy for one of the other warbands. You were about, you were doing chores, but you had duties assigned to you by the Lieutenant (This may not be kosher, as a Sergeant might be angry that you were appropriated. This just goes along with "IC Consequences").
When in doubt, say you were assigned to gate duty.
If you were gone a week or so and the sergeant gets mad because you ic excuse "I was on gate because the Lieutenant said so" I assume the sarge is going to understand that kind of means "Oh he was doing something irl"
Clan forums also have a "Absence board" as well for this certain thing and I've seen and like when people mentioned 'what they are doing', if it pertains to the clan.
Quote from: Miradus on September 01, 2017, 09:53:06 AM
ooc Gone pee break. Sorry. I have a severe bladder infection that runs in my family. My great aunt died from it. She had a dog named Lucinda and we had to take care of it, so I have to make sure I pee regularly or I could get worse and then someone would have to take care of my dog.
Two things,
First: Thats just snarky and horrible to say.
Secons: Ive never seen anything near that complicated, Ive once done: Gone, the kids are being butts. But thats about it.
i think it was meant more as a joke.
Well dont I feel stupid now.
I honestly think it's a dumb thing to spend time worrying about unless someone is OOCing all over the place about making babies and giving out their phone number. Sometimes I have to pee, I use gone and I usually type "gone with your mom" when I do. If you have any objections, take them up with your parents.
I've been unfortunately chastised for completely OOC things, in game, before. I didn't really think it was worth sending a player complaint over. But I basically tried to give an IC excuse why I was somewhere I shouldn't have been after hours (because the game crashed), and it blew up in my face. I should have simply OOC'd that the game had crashed, and I had logged back in later rather than right after the game came back up.
Now I try to be explicit when it's an OOC reason I have to go, rather than an IC one. It just seems way too blurry/messy to rely on other players to play along with your IC excuses and understand that it is actually an OOC one?
IC Excuse = IC Explaination
OOC Excuse = OOC Explanation
Short and simple seems to work the best.
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2017, 06:32:19 PM
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.
... can I sig this?
Quote from: Grapes on September 02, 2017, 06:46:22 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2017, 06:32:19 PM
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.
... can I sig this?
Of course.
Quote from: Veselka on September 02, 2017, 11:36:28 AM
I've been unfortunately chastised for completely OOC things, in game, before. I didn't really think it was worth sending a player complaint over. But I basically tried to give an IC excuse why I was somewhere I shouldn't have been after hours (because the game crashed), and it blew up in my face. I should have simply OOC'd that the game had crashed, and I had logged back in later rather than right after the game came back up.
Now I try to be explicit when it's an OOC reason I have to go, rather than an IC one. It just seems way too blurry/messy to rely on other players to play along with your IC excuses and understand that it is actually an OOC one?
IC Excuse = IC Explaination
OOC Excuse = OOC Explanation
Short and simple seems to work the best.
Sometimes this can happen. I'm sorry it happened to you. I remember years ago, when a noble wanted a serious talk with me but I really had to go, so my IC excuse was I'm too tired. She said, no, sit down. I went OOC to tell her that I really had to go, and everything was fine after. The 'no, sit down' was retconned and she dismissed my PC.
I think situations like this when the other player didn't get that there is an OOC factor going on in you having to log off, then clarifying it OOC should be ok. If the other PC takes your OOC-can't-be-here ICly, then that PC is an asshole, which promotes more conflict in the game. Yay! :D
Quote from: Is Friday on September 02, 2017, 06:32:19 PM
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.
When I tell somone ICly that I can never seem to find them, I don't mean "Play more, asshole", I mean "My playtimes are way off peak, and don't seem to overlap with yours much". :-\
Quote from: Kankfly on September 04, 2017, 12:18:27 AM
Quote from: Veselka on September 02, 2017, 11:36:28 AM
I've been unfortunately chastised for completely OOC things, in game, before. I didn't really think it was worth sending a player complaint over. But I basically tried to give an IC excuse why I was somewhere I shouldn't have been after hours (because the game crashed), and it blew up in my face. I should have simply OOC'd that the game had crashed, and I had logged back in later rather than right after the game came back up.
Now I try to be explicit when it's an OOC reason I have to go, rather than an IC one. It just seems way too blurry/messy to rely on other players to play along with your IC excuses and understand that it is actually an OOC one?
IC Excuse = IC Explaination
OOC Excuse = OOC Explanation
Short and simple seems to work the best.
Sometimes this can happen. I'm sorry it happened to you. I remember years ago, when a noble wanted a serious talk with me but I really had to go, so my IC excuse was I'm too tired. She said, no, sit down. I went OOC to tell her that I really had to go, and everything was fine after. The 'no, sit down' was retconned and she dismissed my PC.
I think situations like this when the other player didn't get that there is an OOC factor going on in you having to log off, then clarifying it OOC should be ok. If the other PC takes your OOC-can't-be-here ICly, then that PC is an asshole, which promotes more conflict in the game. Yay! :D
I have to agree with both of these posts.
And I think this should be the rule:
"IC Excuse = IC Explanation
OOC Excuse = OOC Explanation"
Honestly, I'm not sure I trust the player-base to get that 'gate duty' or a 'sick relative' are cues for "I had to go OOC".
"gate duty" is WIDELY accepted as "ooc i have to go" in any crew with gates and guards.
I've used all kinds of IC excuses to log out. Here's some that worked:
- Gate duty
- The Lieutenant asked me to help teach another unit with (x) skill for the next few days.
- I'm covering for Amos over in the other unit for the next few days.
- I ate something really bad, I need to shit/puke and recover. Will be a few days.
- Your Lady Cousin Talia has tasked me with helping to train her new Whatsit.
- I promised to make five dozen arrows for the Master Agent's other hunting crew.
What (sadly) didn't work:
I'm going home, mom needs me.
Why it didn't work: People believed my PC's mom was another PC. I ended up having to go OOC to explain that she didn't exist codedly and that was what I'd be telling them when I needed to log out. It was very awkward.
If I was a HG my go to excuse as an unclanned would be Gate duty, in which case my HG virtually stands at the gate of allanak and does nothing all day cause that's what people do!
I'm also quite a fan of "I have mind boggling diarrhea I have to leave"
While I can't say for certain, do keep in mind I've seen some leaders do 'virtual punishments' that made IC sense when 'virtual duties' made you miss something that was supposedly required.
It doesn't punish the player. But it does reflect the character not being there. I've seen people flip out over that as well, even if it's the other side of the same coin.
Sooo...no, you should never be -punished- for RL taking precedence. But don't jump...to conclusions...about how unjust some punishments are, either.
I remember me and one other dude were riding around and rode onto a pair of other people. Then SOMEHOW, I dont know how, I've ended up <kill dude> and had like 3-4 rounds of combat.
Then disengaged and I spent like 10 seconds trying to figure out how the heck do I explain the typo.
Eventually went, OOC I dont even know how to ICly explain wtf just happened. Sorry. Typoed.
Continued on seamlessly. Truth be said, I've never really experienced people taking realities of IRL demands in any variation of pissy ways.
virtual punishments seems fine, like: before you go to sleep, you're gonna help sergeant whatshisfuck training his runners.
that seems totally fine. that implies that, when you log off, you're actually going to go do that!
Virtual punishments seem confusing. Who decides the circumstances where a virtual punishment would be justified? We all lead busy lives, and it would be unfortunate to log in after posting in an absence thread that you have some RL stuff going on, and then your Boss informs you of the virtual punishment that happened to your PC while you were not playing the game. That seems rather...Odd.
Just as someone could be virtually non present while the PC isn't in the game, couldn't that same PC be present (a background character) during contracts, or on missions, or just around the compound? From my understanding, virtual means not significant, as in they don't make significant actions either way to affect their surroundings.
virtually present on a contract? no.
because then you would have virtual risk of death.
Doesn't everyone have a virtual risk of death, as in real life?
unless you quit in a public, easy to access room when the soldiers are chasing you? you can't 'virtually' die.
but if you go on virtual contracts, then you'd have to be willing to accept a chance that your character might -die- on that virtual contract.
Quote from: Veselka on September 06, 2017, 07:25:13 PM
Doesn't everyone have a virtual risk of death, as in real life?
Codedly, only in super-rare likely staff-assistance instances.
If I could lose my PC to a virtual mugging, while I was logged off watching American Horror Story? I would find where Saikun's House is, find the toaster he programmed to run this damn game, and do violent things to it.
Likewise, if you're in the Byn, you are not "virtually" on the contract. If they all died on that contract, you would be dead too, without your coded abilities influencing the fight, nor your PCs decisions on whether to fight or flee. It simply does not happen.
.
Quote from: Molten Heart on September 06, 2017, 08:34:28 PM
I like the idea of virtual punishment for things like not attending something because they can't log in, for things that a player is in violation due to inaction of not logging in. It maintains continuity and immersion for others who are close but unaffected and the player effected isn't adversely effected because of their OOC real life circumstances.
It would sort of piss me off. It encourages the 'reward people who play the game 24/7' mentality that sort of drives me insane.
.
I think its more the idea that your character is being punished for an OOC issue. Even if its virtual, if MY PC is being punished, because I had to go make dinner for my family and they couldn't "report in at the Gaj", that seems massively unfair both to me as a player, and to my PC who "would be there if I didn't have RL engagements.
Quote from: Molten Heart on September 06, 2017, 08:38:38 PM
Quote from: Veselka on September 06, 2017, 08:35:37 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on September 06, 2017, 08:34:28 PM
I like the idea of virtual punishment for things like not attending something because they can't log in, for things that a player is in violation due to inaction of not logging in. It maintains continuity and immersion for others who are close but unaffected and the player effected isn't adversely effected because of their OOC real life circumstances.
It would sort of piss me off. It encourages the 'reward people who play the game 24/7' mentality that sort of drives me insane.
Virtual punishment pisses you off? It's my understanding that the punishment is just window dressing of sorts, it effects nothing. Maybe my idea of virtual punishment is different that what other people are thinking. My idea of virtual punishment is having latrine duty every day when they aren't logged in.
So...People who are logged in 24/7 aren't having latrine duty every day when they aren't logged in. But people who aren't logged in 24/7 have latrine duty when they aren't logged in? Don't you see how that creates a pretty dissonant atmosphere right out of the gates, and sort of berates casual players for being casual?
I've already seen sort of 'looking down the nose' reactions when you can't make all the RPTs, especially when they consistently don't happen during times when you can play (as listed in your playtimes). People who can regularly make those RPTs, that are in their playtimes, are treated favorably. It's unavoidable, and I don't feel any shame in not being able to play all the time, and I also think people who are able to play often will almost always get favorable treatment (regardless of the quality of their PC or what they actually do, it's convenient to have them around). But I don't think that means we should virtually punish people who can't be around all the time when you want them, it sounds sort of sick.
I think we should be understanding that people sometimes have things to do, and that's OK. Maybe they missed the RPT for a valid reason, maybe they were doing something on someone else's orders that supersedes the leader PC's jursidiction. Maybe it's just fine to forget that PC wasn't around at the time.
.
If you don't go on contracts, you don't get paid, you don't have the fun, and you're less likely to get promoted. If you're going to say characters get 'punished' for missing them also, why not just mail the players a stick to hit themselves with? Because that's who you're punishing, not the characters.
If someone isn't there when everyone is or "should be" there, that's a much better time for suspension of disbelief than it is for criminalizing unintentionally jeopardizing your immersion.
...I think I got misunderstood.
I didn't mean virtual punishments should be implemented. I meant to say that I'd seen it where 'I was on gate duty' was responded with some off-the-cuff response that essentially impacted nothing, but was a valid IC response to someone not being somewhere. I was saying before you get up in arms about such things (since it's an IC happening), keep in mind that it's not impacting you in any way and it's valid IC.
But based on the responses, I think that might be a little too much to handle.
No, I get what you're saying, man, but it does impact both player and character. Consider this scenario: a casual player who wants to play a meticulous, dedicated soldier in the AoD. Every time they are logged in, their character is the picture of respect, obedience, and dutifulness. But, the player is casual, so the character starts getting "punished" for 'missing duties' the character never would have ICly missed. By deciding to canonize the time that the player is away from the game, you would completely inhibit their ability to play the character they set out to play. The player's enjoyment of the character would suffer, and the character would have to internalize the "reality" that the leader created and adjust accordingly.
It might not be a detriment to a character that was already prone to getting punished, but it skews the reality of the character in a way that benefits absolutely no one, and may be a detriment to the player. Deciding to suspend disbelief about the realism of any character's absence due to playtimes is a far preferable solution.
I once used virtual punishment as a way to explain my absence in the game.
My PC was caught doing something bad virtually, so her virtual superior punished her with this length of time virtually. This is why you won't be seeing my PC for this amount of time.
I find it adds more story to my PC and it's a more interesting explanation than "extended gate duty". My PC also ended up having a virtual "feud" with that virtual superior and it was interesting to blame certain things on that certain virtual superior.
I just wanted to pop back in to reiterate that you're an awful person if you start throwing out IC punishments or threaten subordinates for not logging in much. That's behavior that drives players away. Stop.
On the flip side, try and come up with an IC excuse (if you even need one) that makes sense.
So if you're in the Byn, for example, maybe you wee assigned to another unit for a while, doing x y z virtual duties. If you tell your superior you were fucking off, then well, they kinda have to punish you for fucking off, or else resort to some really awkward handwavium.
Totally agree, but if you
say you were shirking duty, you are, in essence, giving them permission to react ICly. The corollary is not true, unfortunately. You cannot tell your Sarge you were busy saving a Red Robe from a fire while logged out to get an IC bonus. And before Armaddict has an apoplexy, he
did say he wasn't promoting punishing people, just that a virtual punishment is fitting for a virtual crime. I sort of agree, but strongly disagree that ANY sort of logged out duty (gate, latrines, at the medic, with another unit, etc.) should be seen as being absent from assigned duty, or treated as a punishable offense, even virtually. Saying you were passed out at the Gaj is another matter.
I also realized I have an anecdotal experience that ties this tangent back to the main topic. I did a stint in the Byn somewhat recently. For the first four RL weeks of my PC's Runner year, I was on out of state training IRL, and had a ton of spare time to play (like 4-6 hours a day). Then, for the last two weeks of that IC year, I was traveling, and then back home again, with very little time to play. When the year mark came around, the topic of promotion came up, but my PC's superiors (apparently forgetting about the first four weeks) said, "You aren't around enough." And (the Byn being how it is) the next one said the same thing. And the next. I don't know how long it was until my PC finally got promoted, but in that time, I watched PCs (more than one) who were hired
after mine get promoted all the way to Sergeant and
die before mine even made Trooper. I don't necessarily blame this on the leader PCs' players. Their perception told them a story that was a little different than reality. But knowing that didn't stop me from walking away from those conversations grinding my teeth IRL. In predicating my PC's promotion (IC Event) on my presence or absence IG (OOC Reality), these leaders unintentionally put me in a difficult position of trying to bridge the IC/OOC divide, leaving me three options:
- Address it ICly. This would be difficult, because first of all, my PC wasn't the sort to argue. This means to address it IC, I would have to bend my understanding of the character's personality. And second, I would have to jump through some linguistic hoops to paint the situation in IC terms.
- Address it OOCly. This would require a lot of back and forth OOC, and would be unlikely to result in a different outcome (because people expect you to argue when they say you can't have something you probably want).
- Just deal with it, and try not to be pissy.
I opted for #3, because I didn't really know how else to resolve it (or think that any other steps would bear fruit). But I don't know that I would want to ask someone else to do the same thing. (And if someone had tried to "punish" my PC on top of that for 'missing' duties that s/he had no reason to ICly miss? I would have gone nova.) For those of you taking a stand on the use of OOC in this game, how would
you deal with this situation?
I havent seen any argument for the fact that there are people who get in trouble IG, or do something stupid and then immediately go: 'I have gate!' and rush off to logout.
Or there is also the people who only log in so they can spar, then rush off the second sparring is over, or even better, the ones who spar once, then log off.
no it doesn't? you're being punished virtually. not -actually- punished. you're not being punished by being sent into the latrines for an entire week, you're being punished virtually, when you aren't logged in.
it has no effect on you playing.
Quote from: Hauwke on September 07, 2017, 04:48:21 AM
I havent seen any argument for the fact that there are people who get in trouble IG, or do something stupid and then immediately go: 'I have gate!' and rush off to logout.
Or there is also the people who only log in so they can spar, then rush off the second sparring is over, or even better, the ones who spar once, then log off.
That one is actually documented in the Byn documentation. It's handled OOCly (player complaint), however, not ICly.
I think JdM hit the hammer on the head here. People with low playtimes already suffer enough. In philosophy, there is a thing called the 'principle of charity' -- this is when you interpret somebody else's view in the strongest way possible. The same goes for absences and logging off.
My general rule of thumb is:
Ignore it completely if you can, and if you can't, let the player tell you what their character was doing while not logged in (don't make assumptions).
As to the 'virtual contracts' -- I see nothing wrong with this. It adds flavor to have your character doing something other than gate. The /really/ daring can even set up a dice system: 1 in 20 you die and store the character, heheh.
Bear in mind your PC Sergeant probably will still want to have seen you on actual contracts with them, since that's why, in part, that Sergeant is promoting you. You can ask staff for a virtual Sergeant to promote you otherwise, I suppose. But even in this case, I tend to not really care: if someone wants a promotion but can't log in enough, it doesn't hurt the game any to give them that promotion -- unless when they do log in they demonstrate incompetence.
Quote from: James de Monet on September 07, 2017, 03:43:10 AM
Totally agree, but if you say you were shirking duty, you are, in essence, giving them permission to react ICly. The corollary is not true, unfortunately. You cannot tell your Sarge you were busy saving a Red Robe from a fire while logged out to get an IC bonus. And before Armaddict has an apoplexy, he did say he wasn't promoting punishing people, just that a virtual punishment is fitting for a virtual crime. I sort of agree, but strongly disagree that ANY sort of logged out duty (gate, latrines, at the medic, with another unit, etc.) should be seen as being absent from assigned duty, or treated as a punishable offense, even virtually. Saying you were passed out at the Gaj is another matter.
I also realized I have an anecdotal experience that ties this tangent back to the main topic. I did a stint in the Byn somewhat recently. For the first four RL weeks of my PC's Runner year, I was on out of state training IRL, and had a ton of spare time to play (like 4-6 hours a day). Then, for the last two weeks of that IC year, I was traveling, and then back home again, with very little time to play. When the year mark came around, the topic of promotion came up, but my PC's superiors (apparently forgetting about the first four weeks) said, "You aren't around enough." And (the Byn being how it is) the next one said the same thing. And the next. I don't know how long it was until my PC finally got promoted, but in that time, I watched PCs (more than one) who were hired after mine get promoted all the way to Sergeant and die before mine even made Trooper. I don't necessarily blame this on the leader PCs' players. Their perception told them a story that was a little different than reality. But knowing that didn't stop me from walking away from those conversations grinding my teeth IRL. In predicating my PC's promotion (IC Event) on my presence or absence IG (OOC Reality), these leaders unintentionally put me in a difficult position of trying to bridge the IC/OOC divide, leaving me three options:
- Address it ICly. This would be difficult, because first of all, my PC wasn't the sort to argue. This means to address it IC, I would have to bend my understanding of the character's personality. And second, I would have to jump through some linguistic hoops to paint the situation in IC terms.
- Address it OOCly. This would require a lot of back and forth OOC, and would be unlikely to result in a different outcome (because people expect you to argue when they say you can't have something you probably want).
- Just deal with it, and try not to be pissy.
I opted for #3, because I didn't really know how else to resolve it (or think that any other steps would bear fruit). But I don't know that I would want to ask someone else to do the same thing. (And if someone had tried to "punish" my PC on top of that for 'missing' duties that s/he had no reason to ICly miss? I would have gone nova.) For those of you taking a stand on the use of OOC in this game, how would you deal with this situation?
I had a similar situation pan out in which I addressed staff about. I was told "deal with it IC, think of the IC possibilities of conflict cause your leader doesn't like you because he hates you're always on gate yay". When really, the only way to "deal with it" in a favorable way for my PC was to log in a lot more.
Um, okay?
Honestly, I was disappointed I received that response because it's illogical and based around rewarding players who play non-stop. I'm not 18 anymore. I can't play 40 hours a week.
Regarding JdM's comment:
When I was in the Legions with my Sergeant, there was this one PC. Her name was Sulda, and she was a private in the Legions. She was almost never around for anything unless there was a pre-planned RPT. She wasn't at training, I never saw her on tavern patrol, and I don't think she'd have ever gotten a Corporal promotion or anything like that.
However, she was promoted to Private because, according to the Recruitment post, she had been around for an IC year. There was no problems, there was no discussion. If she was a "bad" private because of her lack of training, I think that was just to be par for the course. As it turned out, she was pretty fun to have around, and during a big play in the Uaptal Theater, we were BOTH late, and ended up sneaking upstairs where we weren't allowed and caused quite a ruckus.
Quote from: Riev on September 07, 2017, 09:34:32 AM
Regarding JdM's comment:
When I was in the Legions with my Sergeant, there was this one PC. Her name was Sulda, and she was a private in the Legions. She was almost never around for anything unless there was a pre-planned RPT. She wasn't at training, I never saw her on tavern patrol, and I don't think she'd have ever gotten a Corporal promotion or anything like that.
However, she was promoted to Private because, according to the Recruitment post, she had been around for an IC year. There was no problems, there was no discussion. If she was a "bad" private because of her lack of training, I think that was just to be par for the course. As it turned out, she was pretty fun to have around, and during a big play in the Uaptal Theater, we were BOTH late, and ended up sneaking upstairs where we weren't allowed and caused quite a ruckus.
That's what you're supposed to do by being a considerate player with a brain. Good job.
That being said, she also made sure to post on the Internal GDB that she was around, but had low playtimes, so there was some communication. I do think there needs to be that in some way, whether its a PM or some other communication.
I have no problem, as a Militia/Military Clan recruiter with a new recruit/runner being around a year, having little to no training, and being promoted. So long as they let me KNOW that they aren't just taking up a slot and are making an effort to play. While I suspect some might apply for a Byn Runner, sit on it for 6 Rl weeks just so they can have a Trooper, they would NOT be the only shit-for-brains Trooper in the Byn. In an OOC manner, I might not trust them with the sensitive jobs, but a meat shield is a meat shield.
I had a few more points to make on this sub-topic that I thought of.
So, in general, practice the principle of charity about what people are doing while logged off -- don't make negative assumptions: infer from their behavior while logged in to their behavior while logged off: if they are well-behaved soldiers while logged in, and they give you no IG reason to suspect otherwise, assume they are well-behaved soldiers while logged off; the converse, however, does not hold true: if they are putzes and shirk duties while logged in, you have no right to assume this is what they are doing while logged off. To do so would be the same as a poweremote. It is up to them to make up what they were doing while logged off. That said, if it comes time for a promotion, you /can/ use the data you are given from when they are logged in to justify the promotion (or lack thereof). But you can't pull in data from times they were logged off, since that data isn't there.
So basically, don't be a dick, obvs. People who can't play the game already suffer from that: they miss the fun contracts, they lose connections, and so on.
That said, there are some situations where absence of play has a negative impact on the health of the game. Two obvious areas that are already recognized but worth emphasizing are:
o Leaders. If a leader isn't logging in, this is reason to alert staff (who probably already know). This is in part why staff monitors this. Plots fall dead if a leader can't log in regularly: the Byn can't leave the gates without a Sergeant; the Byn can't get paid without nobles logging in to pay them; AoD soldiers can't do squat if a Templar isn't logging in to punish criminals; and so on.
o Clan Limits. This is a far less of a concern but there are some considerations someone who is promoted should take into account. There are, after all, only a limited number of slots in promoted clan positions (Troopers, Privates, etc.) represented by the lockers and sometimes enforced by staff. But it isn't just the number of lockers: those who are promoted inside the game are also in a quasi-leadership position, and plots, although to a lesser extent, do hang on them as well. A Byn Trooper probably isn't that big of deal, but if the Sr. Aide or the Corporal or the Merchant stops logging in for long stretches, it will have a small but noticeable effect on the game.
The best thing to do, as mentioned, is communicate clearly your absences and playtimes to staff and your clan if you are in a leadership or promoted position.
Quote from: nauta on September 07, 2017, 10:47:03 AM
I had a few more points to make on this sub-topic that I thought of.
So, in general, practice the principle of charity about what people are doing while logged off -- don't make negative assumptions: infer from their behavior while logged in to their behavior while logged off: if they are well-behaved soldiers while logged in, and they give you no IG reason to suspect otherwise, assume they are well-behaved soldiers while logged off; the converse, however, does not hold true: if they are putzes and shirk duties while logged in, you have no right to assume this is what they are doing while logged off. To do so would be the same as a poweremote. It is up to them to make up what they were doing while logged off. That said, if it comes time for a promotion, you /can/ use the data you are given from when they are logged in to justify the promotion (or lack thereof). But you can't pull in data from times they were logged off, since that data isn't there.
So basically, don't be a dick, obvs. People who can't play the game already suffer from that: they miss the fun contracts, they lose connections, and so on.
That said, there are some situations where absence of play has a negative impact on the health of the game. Two obvious areas that are already recognized but worth emphasizing are:
o Leaders. If a leader isn't logging in, this is reason to alert staff (who probably already know). This is in part why staff monitors this. Plots fall dead if a leader can't log in regularly: the Byn can't leave the gates without a Sergeant; the Byn can't get paid without nobles logging in to pay them; AoD soldiers can't do squat if a Templar isn't logging in to punish criminals; and so on.
o Clan Limits. This is a far less of a concern but there are some considerations someone who is promoted should take into account. There are, after all, only a limited number of slots in promoted clan positions (Troopers, Privates, etc.) represented by the lockers and sometimes enforced by staff. But it isn't just the number of lockers: those who are promoted inside the game are also in a quasi-leadership position, and plots, although to a lesser extent, do hang on them as well. A Byn Trooper probably isn't that big of deal, but if the Sr. Aide or the Corporal or the Merchant stops logging in for long stretches, it will have a small but noticeable effect on the game.
The best thing to do, as mentioned, is communicate clearly your absences and playtimes to staff and your clan if you are in a leadership or promoted position.
This is well put.
Self-imposed virtual punishments make sense if you want to incorporate that. The most clear example is your PC pissed off the Gate Sergeant or whatever that equivalent is in non-Byn clans/Houses, and they've been pulling you for extra shifts. That isn't a very fun time (while you are logged off), and could be viewed as an IC/virtual punishment.
The problem with virtual punishments (and the argument that 'it's virtual so it doesn't affect you at all') is that it absolutely does affect you. If you are, as nauta put it, a good soldier, and then it's decided while you log off that you've been a bad soldier and you have been punished, that affects the IC reflection of your PC in the game. Self-imposing that is totally cool, and up to a player to decide if they want to add that flair/story to their PC. Kankfly's example was a great one -- Starting a beef with another NPC Leader or vNPC leader, and incorporating that into their biographies and story.
It absolutely makes sense to reward people who are around, are going on contracts/attending RPTs, are helpful, and are otherwise proving themselves at a much quicker rate than people who aren't around, aren't going on contracts/attending RPTs, and aren't otherwise proving themselves. What doesn't make sense (to me) and seems sort of cruel towards a Player rather than a PC, is to otherwise further punish someone for not being around, not going on contracts/attending RPTs, but when they are around, are helpful, and are otherwise proving themselves. That seems bizarre, and mostly a fuck you for not playing to a standard the leader deems as enough.
I definitely think communication is the best thing for someone to do. Telling people when you are going to be gone, and for about how long, or if you are going to have restricted playtimes or need to leave suddenly, really helps people adapt to your change in playstyle. People start assuming when they don't have enough information to go off of.
At the end of the day this is a game -- Imposed Virtual Punishments seem like the biggest OOC fuck you to people who are just trying to log in when they can and have fun.
Whenever I play a leader (which is like, every other character, I'm addicted guys) I don't care whether punishments that can be done virtually are done virtually. I mean, there's danger to cleaning the latrines, but if my sarge tells you to clean latrines for a week, I'm not expecting you to stay logged in for 24 hours. Punishments are directed at the character, not at the player.
Which isn't to say I'd never restrict someone to the clan compound just because it happens to do both. What I am saying is that I think it's fine for people to give virtual punishments and to perform punishments virtually if they can.
Back on topic, I personally find it much more jarring to see OOC song lyrics or like quotes from Shakespeare put into an IC context. Sometimes they elicit a giggle, but they definitely otherwise break down the 4th wall and are meant to make me (the player) giggle at the OOC context, not my PC giggle at the IC context.
Quote from: Veselka on September 07, 2017, 01:03:42 PM
Back on topic, I personally find it much more jarring to see OOC song lyrics or like quotes from Shakespeare put into an IC context. Sometimes they elicit a giggle, but they definitely otherwise break down the 4th wall and are meant to make me (the player) giggle at the OOC context, not my PC giggle at the IC context.
I've seen them done well enough before. I used to do Byn songs taking "raunchy or bawdy" limericks from the internet. I have a friend who used to sing Nightwish songs during downtime.
Its hard to make a PC giggle at the IC context, because most of us aren't familiar with popular people, celebrities, or important goings on around the Known. Its hard to 'make a reference' if every person has a different word forit.
Yeah, I regret bringing up the virtual punishments because even though some of you said you understood, the context of it got twisted into nowhere near what I was saying. What I was positing had nothing to do with punishing off peak or those who play less or anything of that nature. It wasn't even a rule.
I was just saying that if such a thing occurred realize that it was likely a reconciliation between IC things in motion and your OOC situation in a rare occurrence to avoid having to go around and say a bunch of 'Nevermind what we were talking about because this.' If such a thing 'ruins a character' for you, I'm beyond flabberghasted at just how fragile your characters must be.
Hell, it's a grumbled 'Yessir' and likely never a topic of conversation again.
I like 'virtual punishments'.
Not "You are in trouble virtually" but the self imposed "I was doing x and x" but in the same ring I also like virtual acomplishments/lessons/whatever.
"I was helping one of your younger cousins learn how to speak -a language I speak-" or "I was helping one of your -whatevers- do -whatever-"
Though I tend to use these very sparingly and only things that would make sense.
That being said this shit ain't required at all and going too heavy with it just complicates things, I think.
Rehashing the point I made earlier about guys who train, then logout:
Awhile ago, there was this guy in a clan, he showed up to sparring, sparred, then went: Say Gate!
Then walked off and parked himself in the barracks. A little while later he was still logged in, so he was asked what he was doing, and he again, said Gate!
And he still didnt actually log out, he was clearly at his keyboard still, and using an OOC thing to get out of chores and such.
Side-note, I am pretty sure he was either new, or very much intending to break rules, I didnt deal with it much further than being present for all of it.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 07, 2017, 01:28:05 PM
I'm beyond flabberghasted at just how fragile your characters must be.
Hell, it's a grumbled 'Yessir' and likely never a topic of conversation again.
Heh, now who's misunderstanding whom? People seem to be reacting to the
idea of what you said, moreso than the context.
The problem isn't that it is automatically a huge deal. How big of a deal it is is going to be a factor of the event and the character (
and how often it happens). The problem is that, as someone mentioned above, it's tantamount to power emoting on the part of the leader. A player who isn't physically logged in for a "required" event has four choices:
- Say they were virtually present. Whether or not this is acceptable is going to depend on the event, character, leader(s), and staff. Keep in mind that being "present" doesn't have to mean "decisively engaged". They could be stuck at the stables with the remounts, or watching the unit's back from two rooms away, or...
- Use a generic excuse for their absence (like gate duty, latrines, medic, another unit, etc.)
- Make up a specific, positive reason for their absence (working for the LT, got called to help a Templar, recruiting new members, etc.)
- Make up a specific, negative reason for their absence (drunk, sleeping, in jail, didn't feel like it, etc.)
#1 requires the most planning and interaction, but is sometimes helpful and appropriate.
#2 is the most common, and generally means the player is not interested in RPing out the reason for their absence. IF A LEADER DECIDES that this means the absence was unconstructive (bad), they are essentially power emoting the other player. Why? Because they are deciding things about the virtual world that are not in their purview to decide. Leaders absolutely have the right to punish their minions at will, but they don't have the right to unilaterally decide that a character did something virtual that OBJECTIVELY DESERVES to be punished. There's a difference.
#3 is iffy, and may constitute power emoting on the part of the absent player. Why? Because they are deciding things about the virtual world to the benefit of their character that did not really happen. That docs are pretty clear about that.
#4 is great, and if a player wants to do that, they are inviting the leader character into further RP regarding the absence, to include punishment. Totally fair game.
The problem is, a player who was absent really only has these options. If they are forbidden from using #1, and don't want to use #4, they're stuck with using #2 (or trying to carefully use #3). If you decide that their use of #2 is actually a use of #4, you've made decisions about their character's
character that they never made. They can't magically make themselves be present. Figure out how the story happened with them. Don't tell them you get to narrate their part in the story because they weren't present.
The accusations, also do not have to be true. Do keep that in mind folks.
If I am sargeant whats-his-face, and I hate Trooper whats-his-nose. I dont need an actual reason to whip the Trooper, citing the reason as: You were caught slacking off on duty. When in reality, I have no clue what the hell this guy was doing.
If that's the case, you can make it more obviously a roleplay scenario so they don't feel OOCly picked on.
Make up some sort of reason that has plenty of IC merit but is obviously, OOCly, a fabrication.
Yeah. Totally power-emoting, right there. ::)
I've already belabored the point. Further explanations are unlikely to be productive.
This was ages and ages (and ages and ages) ago, but...
We had someone in our clan that had to miss an RPT because of RL circumstances, so the clan came up with a story about his glory that day that just got bigger, and bigger, and bigger for years. It was great and became a huge part of the character's story.
For goodness sake, it doesn't always have to be negative.
Edited to add: I should also mention that we had been playing together as a group for RL years at that point, so there was a measure of trust with one another about doing things like this. There's maybe one person that I can think of that I would trust with that now.