Armageddon General Discussion Board

Please discuss this announcement!

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.0.html

If there are 3 psions and 3 sorcerers would you lose a spec app to ask about making one or do you send in a rollapplication asking about it before hand?


Losing a spec app because you bothered to want to be a psion or sorcerer seems very shitty, if thats how it is.

I dislike the spend and regenerate aspect. If I earned two karma points then let me spend two karma points on each character. The world does not suffer if there's two protectors or outdoorsmen out there.

If it's a matter of mages being too frequent, put them on a whole separate system. Like mundane karma classes don't spend but mages do.

It's a livable system, I suppose, but I die frequently enough that I can see I'm going to spend a lot of time at 0 or 1 karma. Dying is going to feel like a punishment now, which is just going to screw over those like me who are on the explorer/achieve side of the Bartle chart.

ETA:

I'd like to add that maybe you could mitigate the pain of that by a karma refund for storage or adding in more rerolls per character.

Obligatory and usual tirade re: returning full-guild sorcerers and/or returning nilazis back to the game as a special app only as long as you already have the 3 karma points.

Other than that, I like the karma change ideas!

Question though: For people who already had several points of karma, will they now all revert to 0 and have to earn their way back up again? Or will it depend on what they're currently playing?

In other words - let's say (for example) I have 7 karma in the current system. In the new iteration that'd mean I'd have 3 karma. Let's say I"m currently playing a mundane, no extended subguilds or skill bumps. Just a merchant/thug (is that still even a thing?). If this change became effective tomorrow, would that mean I really do have the full 3 karma? Or is everyone starting tomorrow at 0 (theoretically, if the change became effective tomorrow)?

Quote from: Jihelu on June 19, 2017, 09:49:41 PM
If there are 3 psions and 3 sorcerers would you lose a spec app to ask about making one or do you send in a rollapplication asking about it before hand?


Losing a spec app because you bothered to want to be a psion or sorcerer seems very shitty, if thats how it is.

In NO way do we want this to feel punitive.  The way we will likely approach this is that denied special apps will no longer 'count' against the allowed special apps.  If there are abuses of too many special apps attempts on one account that can be addressed on an individual basis.

"Special App only:  Psionicist and Sorcerer
Special apps will be limited to one per player, per year. If the special application character dies within one week of creation the special application slot will be refunded."

Are psion and sorcerer spec apps limited to one per year?

Are all spec apps limited to once per year?


Does a regular spec app get refunded if you die within a week?

Quote from: Lizzie on June 19, 2017, 09:58:35 PM
Question though: For people who already had several points of karma, will they now all revert to 0 and have to earn their way back up again? Or will it depend on what they're currently playing?

In other words - let's say (for example) I have 7 karma in the current system. In the new iteration that'd mean I'd have 3 karma. Let's say I"m currently playing a mundane, no extended subguilds or skill bumps. Just a merchant/thug (is that still even a thing?). If this change became effective tomorrow, would that mean I really do have the full 3 karma? Or is everyone starting tomorrow at 0 (theoretically, if the change became effective tomorrow)?

The scale in the post shows how it will be converted.  When the conversion happens everyone will start out at the highest karma for both maximum and current.  Meaning in this instance 7 previous means you have 3 max and 3 usable right away.  I think that answers the question?  Hope so!

Thanks Nathvaan, it definitely answers the question!

A suggestion - based on the discord conversation going on (the screen scroll is too fast for me to keep up!):

Allow a "reset" of karma if you play a karma-required role, even a sponsored role, if the character dies within a RL week. So if you used 3 karma and now have 0 karma, but your krathi-enforcer/master-whateverthehell dies 5 days from now, you get your 3 karma back right away. After 7 days - you're in it to win it.

Quote from: Jihelu on June 19, 2017, 10:00:45 PM
Are psion and sorcerer spec apps limited to one per year?

Assuming I understand the question, once per year per account, yes.  That is the intent.

Quote from: Jihelu on June 19, 2017, 10:00:45 PM
Are all spec apps limited to once per year?

Again, yes the intent is to make special apps special but be forgiving when it comes to losing one early to a rabid gortok (within a week).

Quote from: Jihelu on June 19, 2017, 10:00:45 PM
Does a regular spec app get refunded if you die within a week?

Good question!  This is why we want feedback.  We will have to decide the specifics but I think we would lean toward refunding the spent karma if we refund the special application slot, generally speaking.

Let's say you put in a spec app for a psion.

Too many psions at the moment, denied and you get your spec app back.

Would it be bad taste to reapply the SAME CHARACTER a year later, when a psion might have died? Not that the year is because you lose the spec app, as you have stated before you would keep it, but because you wanted to wait enough time for someone to store or die.

.

My first thought is that I am hoping I get to keep my current karma options without having to seek a review.


One of the things that I was most excited to read about with the guild changes was how we would get more focused guilds, with potentially less skills but the skills we would get would start out much higher. That way you wouldn't feel so useless (like current assassins are) right out the box and you could jump into playing a role.

I really hope this doesn't all get locked away behind karma. It is really painful to start off a new class in the game and just have to go through that grind those first few days.

Quote from: Jihelu on June 19, 2017, 10:15:54 PM
Let's say you put in a spec app for a psion.

Too many psions at the moment, denied and you get your spec app back.

Would it be bad taste to reapply the SAME CHARACTER a year later, when a psion might have died? Not that the year is because you lose the spec app, as you have stated before you would keep it, but because you wanted to wait enough time for someone to store or die.

Yes, you could reapp the same character.  I don't think we would assume you needed to wait a year to check back in to see if there is an opening but clearly we need to work on the specifics and timing.  We'll put this on the list of things to discuss. Thanks!

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 19, 2017, 10:22:49 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on June 19, 2017, 10:15:54 PM
Let's say you put in a spec app for a psion.

Too many psions at the moment, denied and you get your spec app back.

Would it be bad taste to reapply the SAME CHARACTER a year later, when a psion might have died? Not that the year is because you lose the spec app, as you have stated before you would keep it, but because you wanted to wait enough time for someone to store or die.

Yes, you could reapp the same character.  I don't think we would assume you needed to wait a year to check back in to see if there is an opening but clearly we need to work on the specifics and timing.  We'll put this on the list of things to discuss. Thanks!

If there was a system or if staff would be nice enough to just straight send someone a message "Hey you could send in that request again" that'd be super cool.

Quote from: Molten Heart on June 19, 2017, 10:17:58 PM
When does karma regeneration begin?

If I understand the question, you are asking at what time/date stamp does the ticker start?  If that is the case, as it stands this would happen when your character first enters the game after approval.

Perhaps an "interest list" for limited 3-karma roles (psi, sorc) much like there is one for builders & staff.

Also, would these roles be permitted to be low-key or would they need to be out there "in it"?

For example I have a concept I've been toying with for a while, but it would be a slow burn role the way I envision it. Would I be denied the application in favor of other players if I planned to take my time and remain low profile?

Hey, thanks for asking for player input on this, it means a lot to me and I'm sure others too.

It looks great! I love that it doesn't seem like it lends itself to elitism so much as the old system.

I guess the only potential problem I see is that with the 3/sorc 3/psi max, you might end up with either something like a very long waiting list for those roles OR people would be punished for not constantly asking about openings/getting very lucky with their timing.

Maybe you could handle it like something like a role call? You could do a post like, "Hey, there's an opening for a sorcerer; get your special apps in if you want it!" And then you could choose an interesting one from the applicants. Although I'm not sure I like that, either; it opens a whole new box of problems.

You also might get a problem where you get a nice revolving door of psionicists and sorcerers at first, but eventually I think by rotating people out when they die, you very well might end up with a bunch of extremely careful and long-lived sorcerers and/or psis, not leaving any room for anyone else to give it a shot. And as much as those roles can have an impact on the world, I don't think anyone would be thrilled about the prospect of people being force-stored in the middle of their arcs, either.

It's a tough problem to keep 'em rare but also keep it fair, it seems! (Sorry.)

Quote from: Miradus on June 19, 2017, 09:57:11 PM
I dislike the spend and regenerate aspect. If I earned two karma points then let me spend two karma points on each character. The world does not suffer if there's two protectors or outdoorsmen out there.

If it's a matter of mages being too frequent, put them on a whole separate system. Like mundane karma classes don't spend but mages do.

It's a livable system, I suppose, but I die frequently enough that I can see I'm going to spend a lot of time at 0 or 1 karma. Dying is going to feel like a punishment now, which is just going to screw over those like me who are on the explorer/achieve side of the Bartle chart.

ETA:

I'd like to add that maybe you could mitigate the pain of that by a karma refund for storage or adding in more rerolls per character.

If an option is on the karma scale, it means that it has extra power to what we consider baseline, and we do not want unlimited numbers of characters with those advantages.

Quote from: Delirium on June 19, 2017, 10:29:19 PM
Perhaps an "interest list" for limited 3-karma roles (psi, sorc) much like there is one for builders & staff.

Not a bad idea, we'll talk about it. Thanks.

Quote from: Delirium on June 19, 2017, 10:29:19 PM
Also, would these roles be permitted to be low-key or would they need to be out there "in it"?

For example I have a concept I've been toying with for a while, but it would be a slow burn role the way I envision it. Would I be denied the application in favor of other players if I planned to take my time and remain low profile?

I can't see any reason why we would dictate how one plays their special application as long as the rules are followed, the setting is followed and RP happens.  But honestly that's no different than any other character! Special app or not.  So the answer is, nope.  "Slow burn" would not be a reason for denial.

If the karma system had more in place for people who weren't extreme social, it's hard to communicate with staff when you just ranger in the north all day, that would look better.

"If an option is on the karma scale, it means that it has extra power to what we consider baseline, and we do not want unlimited numbers of characters with those advantages."
Master cook gives like, skin and cook.
I don't think it should be limited to once every 30 days

I've always had a sneaking suspicion that those psi/sorcerer roles are more common than I believe, and chances are they are continuously played by the same people.

I've never played one, and don't intend to but hoping that should I ever change my mind, my application and those like me who have never played one would be given priority over those that have played mutliple ones. If this means those who have been getting to play sorcerers/psi continuously need to wait... Well then thats even better.

Personally I think the total number is too high, it should be 3 for the combination of both. Additionally sorcerer/psi should be sponsored roles like templars are currently.

Master cook gives the ability to master craft.  You may notice that everything that gives the ability to master craft, outside of guild merchant, is on this list.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 19, 2017, 10:42:47 PM
Master cook gives the ability to master craft.  You may notice that everything that gives the ability to master craft, outside of guild merchant, is on this list.

You win this battle.

I think having a public hard limit on psions and sorcerers is a bad idea because like it or not, the OOC guild sniffing metagame is part of playing those guilds. I worry some people would not RP appropriately if they were given reason to suspect someone was a psionicist or a sorcerer but they already knew the other three ingame. A lot of our players are really good at disregarding that stuff but some aren't.

I can think of some memorable times when people have been framed to be those guilds to take the fall for a real one, or just framed to sic enemies on them, and my concern is that knowing there's an OOC hard limit and it's as small as three will factor into people's RP, even subconsciously.

I'm fine with a cap on those guilds but I think it should be private.

I feel like the wait times are massive for some of these subguilds/setups. It seems unreasonable to wait 90 days to get to play some of these extended subguilds. On top of that, I'm not a fan of further long OOC wait times between these roles. I've hardly even ever played them, and I feel those wait times are massive. You have to wait three months to play a different (non-touched) elementalist (even for the 'cheapest' ones)? That's extreme. Further, must wait 6 months between any 3 karma applications, if yours dies? I get it, on the sorcs, and psions. I think they should be behind special applications. I don't necessarily think you should limit the number, and think ideally, the difficulty of getting to a point of playing them would limit them enough (more so with these wait times than anything), but I get that staff have quietly been pushing on that for a time now.

There's so much here that I'm just shaking my head at. I'm trying to nail down the major points though.

1.) The wait times are extreme.
2.) The extended subguilds that are right now placed among the 2 karma guilds are not worth 2 karma under this new system.
3.) The new design of the karma system DOES allow for more people to possibly play psions or sorcs. However, it greatly limits the amount of times you can play any given thing, in a way that's honestly worse than having fought to earn 5 karma under the old system. If people played too many powerful roles at once, or in a row, honestly, address that on a case by case basis. This is too much.
4.) 3 total points of karma is too low paired with the 'regen' and the amount of things for it to be spent on, especially for later on adding MORE stuff to spend it on. It seems like it'd be better off doing 5 with lesser wait times for the lower two karma points, and maybe a bit higher at the 5. Still, six months is too much.


Proposed changes to this system outlined?

-Bump total karma possible to 5.

Sorcerers and Psionicists are Special Application only, with only 1 allowed per year, with an unlimited number of each allowed in game. Must be at least 3 karma to apply for them (within the range of special application ideal). This would limit their presence (once a year per player that has ACCESS to them even), and wouldn't result in 3 super secret hardly logs-in psions/sorcs holding these spots for a while (or losing them when their RL interferes with their play times for a while).

5 Karma -Devastation, Travel, Agony, Mul

4 Karma -Illusion, Guile, Tempest

3 Karma - Half-Giant, Water and Stone Elementalists, Protector, Berserker, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

2 Karma - Outdoorsman, Rogue, Cutpurse, Slipknife

1 Karma - Desert elf, Water/Stone/Fire/Wind Touched. Master Tailor, Minstrel, Master Jeweler, Weaponsmith, Master Crafter, Master Armorsmith, Master Potter, Master Chef, Grebber, Apothecary, Master Trader, Majordomo.

With this system, I would propose a 2 week period between each point of karma, gained back steadily. Not escalating. That means if a MAX karma person apps for something stupid strong, they're still forced to wait at least 10 weeks to app the same. Non-refundable.

For the case of special applications, you can apply 3 higher than your current karma. You should stay at your 'current' level of karma under the new changes, with people 6-8 karma dropping to max karma of 5. (Do you really have anything to complain about, if you get access to the same things? Probably not.)

This ideally seems a better set up. As is, six months between the more powerful applications is too much. We're talking about a percent of a person's life, for a 20 year old game. I understand the elitism that is Armageddon, as it's a fantastic community for roleplaying, but let's please draw the line somewhere. I agree that players shouldn't have to wait 10 years to get to play the most powerful stuff in the game. But I would sooner stick to the old system than move to one where the amount of time between each is massive. I've gone away and almost never come back to the game purely by accident of getting distracted by other things in life. Furthering the confines of the player base within mundane or lesser codedly powerful roles doesn't serve to make the game more inviting or fun.

To anyone who whines about Armageddon needing to be low-magick, or simply have 'less' magick, I'm going to point to the very first paragraph on the 'Home' page of the website.

"Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things. Rather, it is about living out a character's sometimes short and always difficult life in the harsh world, Zalanthas. It is a world where sorcerer-kings and their ruthless servants, the Templarate, govern the two main cities, Allanak and Tuluk. Any magick not granted by the Kings is feared and hated, and where the punishment of such a curse might be death. In this harsh realm, life is a constant struggle, and death may occur over a drink of precious water."

You might come here to chop up people with bone swords. That's cool. I think many come here for this though. Let's not bog them down with massive wait times. Karma is about trust. If you trust a player to have the karma, you should trust them to be responsible with it. If they aren't responsible with it, take it away from them until such a time where they show to be responsible with it. Trying to blanket fix problems (like some people just continually re-apping powerful roles of Psions and Sorcs) will result in many people who don't have anything to do with it, nor having done any wrong suffering the consequences of someone else's bad behavior. I just want us enabling people not only to play the role they want, but also to play other ones they want too without needing to devote years to getting around to them all EVEN IF THEY DIE.

Even if you ignore all of my proposed changes, and want to stick SOLELY to the 3 karma system, I would suggest some sort of HEAVY reduction of the 'regen' times involved. You shouldn't have to wait more than 2 months to play any role that YOU already -earned- access to.

I am very happy with the karma regen.

I am very happy with the cap on sorcerer and psi, though I feel it should be set to a percentage between 5~10% of the active playerbase over a real-life week.  (Unique logins every 7 days)  This number cap could be updated every month automatically, and the percentage it is set it can also be manually updated as the need be.

I agree with Dresan - I would completely remove the Sorc/Psi from the Karma tree and have them as sponsored roles. This keeps them small and gives staff great oversight onto them, and also places some kind of emphasis (whether real or imagined) that the character is a mover and a shaker and is meant to drive roleplay for other characters. As much as a templar, it could be viewed as a leadership role, though of the antagonist sort, usually.

As far as the karma system itself goes - my questions are thus:

• Will players that currently have karma keep their options?
• Do players still have the ability to request classes/subclasses that are karma restricted via spec-app? If so, is that spec-app for a non-sorc, non-psi role considered your single spec app for the year?
• Will any of the new classes (speaking of class revamp) be karma restricted?
• Would it be possible that roles be advertised as karma uses, as well? (will explain more on this in my comments section)
• Are you considering population caps on any other karma-restricted classes/subclasses at this time?
• Would it be possible to trigger karma reviews after a certain amount of playtime in combination with real-time?

So, wrote a whole bunch of questions, first thanks for answering any of them. I'm glad to see movement on the karma front, and am greatly anticipating the class revamp as well. Probably even moreso than a karma revamp. Couple comments I'd like to mention in regards to my questions:

I know I, and many other players who have karma, fought long and hard for it. In the past (granted, I haven't played in nearly ten years), karma was a hit-or-miss affair. I played a very, very long-lived, and renowned leader... and only a chance glance at my account by a friendly staffer (much later) netted me a couple karma when I put in for a very low-karma spec-app. I'd hate to be in that situation again, even if I don't use my karma options very often (read: ever).

I'm also curious if any of the new classes will be karma restricted; brokkr brought up an interesting idea that anything that can mastercraft is a restricted option. If that is then a consideration, would some mundane classes with exceptional crafting ability (i.e. merchant, as an example) be relegated to a karma-required class, or is that a subclass-only requirement?

I'd also be interested in knowing if you might consider opening up some generic, default 'roles' up as karma options. This worked well in SoI when I played there (though the RPP gain was much faster), and was able to get more advanced players into more advanced roles, where they can often benefit more players with their experience.

As far as a critique of the system, I will say that I think the karma regain mechanism seems a bit more complex than it needs to be, and doesn't quite make sense to me, though perhaps I'm thinking about it wrong.

If PlayerA has three karma and apps a mul, he will regain one karma again in 90 days.

If PlayerB has one karma and apps a vivaduan, he will regain one karma again in 30 days.

Let's say that both characters last 45 days. PlayerB is free to create another Vivaduan even though he spend 100% of his available karma, ad nauseam, whereas PlayerA must wait an additional 45 days for the same benefit.

The issue here does not seem to be how many vivaduans there are in the game world - only that PlayerA apped a 3-karma class and thus needs to wait 180 days before regaining his full karma, or 90 days for even playing a 1-karma class, whereas another player spending 100% of their max karma only has to wait 30 days.

It would seem a simpler system if the karma regenerated like:

1st point: 30 days to regenerate
2nd point: 60 days to regenerate
3rd point: 90 days to regenerate

Finally, I will say that I've seen a similar system work very well in SoI, though it did have the added feature of having some default, generic roles (like army Corporal, for instance) available for RPP - that helped quite a bit in a few cases, and those roles often came with some skill bumps and/or other small perks that made them worthwhile. I have great hopes!

I like helix's suggestion as far as karma regen goes. He brings up a good point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think to know what karma you will have under the new system, you have to tally up what points you have in separate categories and then apply them to the new criteria. As for me, I have 5 karma, but two of my karma points were awarded under the same category, so I will have 4 points, which amounts to 2 karma. I will need to achieve two more points in different categories in order to make it to the max 3 karma. That is my understanding.

My question is: Can a single karma review award multiple points in different categories? What if someone hasn't dutifully been sending in karma reviews each year, for example, but you've noticed they've done well in more than one category?

To paraphrase the announcement post. Since it's come up a few times.

New                Current
Level 0 -                    0
Level 1 -            1 - 2 points
Level 2 -            3 - 5 points
Level 3 -            6 - 8 points

It was phrased to be criteria in the post. But it will work as a direct old karma to new karma conversion.

Quote from: Tleilax on June 19, 2017, 11:34:43 PM
To paraphrase the announcement post. Since it's come up a few times.

New                Current
Level 0 -                    0
Level 1 -            1 - 2 points
Level 2 -            3 - 5 points
Level 3 -            6 - 8 points

It was phrased to be criteria in the post. But it will work as a direct old karma to new karma conversion.

I really do think I have 2 points in one category, though, and the OP states that the points must be in separate categories. Am I going to lose a point over this or might it be reviewed and added to a different category? Just clarifying.

Is it just my cynical nature, or does it seem like this is going to really going to promote a culture of no-risk, tavern sitting, tea party and fashion show instead of getting out there murdering, betraying, and corrupting ... not to mention chopping up people with bone swords?

It's the regen times that have me concerned. 150 days is a substantial run of warrior/nomads while you work your way back around to someone who can mastercraft a new knife.

But hey. There's some pretty good no-karma combos out there. And you can never go wrong with a pickpocket. 150 days of stealing people's stable tickets will pass the time between outdoorsmen in an entertaining fashion.

Maybe I just need more time to think this through, but it feels like we're enabling a side of the player base we're already pretty well saturated in. Who is going to get out and do stuff? The warrior/bounty hunters?

It'll be a direct conversion as stated.

We won't be looking at your categories. It's going to be a coded execution.

Quote from: Adhira on June 19, 2017, 11:42:04 PM
It'll be a direct conversion as stated.

We won't be looking at your categories. It's going to be a coded execution.

OK, thanks for the clarification!

Quote from: Miradus on June 19, 2017, 11:39:19 PM
Is it just my cynical nature, or does it seem like this is going to really going to promote a culture of no-risk, tavern sitting, tea party and fashion show instead of getting out there murdering, betraying, and corrupting ... not to mention chopping up people with bone swords?

In so many words... I don't think so.

What it will do is take the emphasis of excellent stats out of the game. You're right insomuch as it will promote people to cherish their karma much more than before, but explorers will always be explorers, and killers will always be killers. I can honestly say that I didn't play my special-app characters any differently than I did before because I only got three of them a year. People will be more likely to be content with what they roll, because they can't roll another for an extended period of time.

In addition, I would take this change with the class revamp on the horizon as well; given that staff have already stated that classes will become more powerful because people don't have as much time for the grind any longer, and you'll likely see characters that are quite a bit more survivable, with more utility skills, and even more reasons to get out into the world. In short, characters will be even more likely to survive, and have better tools to survive, regardless of their karma options.

Heya.

I'm extremely happy about any form of regenerating Karma. It prevents the same higher karma players from continuously playing extended subguilds/magickers.  I personally have not rolled a single non extended subguild since the day they became automated. Unless some regular guild had something specific that I had in mind, it was always always always extended subs. Which is admittedly, unfair to other players. Regenerating Karma would make even people with high karma to space out those special guilds.

I'm extremely happy about reducing the required karma/waiting period to achieve higher karma roles. There are people out there who played for a 'decade' and never played a Mul. Not because they didnt want to, but because they never really got close enough to app it. This way, the threshold is lower to reach rarer guild to 'try out' in a spec app, but the necessary player qualities that are needed to be able to play those roles without spec apps are the same as current karma, or better.

My only worry is the one that's partly disregarded by somewhat ambiguous mention of higher skill levels as part of the guild revamp.  My worry is among all other things, higher Karma is what gives our DECADES old veterans a semblance of replayability. Or at least it should. Meaning the karma should allow players to play not only codedly more powerful beings, but mundane beings who are regular, but further advanced along the grinding scale. Because god as my witness, I imagine the need to grind again, and I just close the webclient without finishing a new char app.

It is mentioned that new options to guild selections will be available that solve the issue though. So there will be choices. Do you pick slipknife for all the extra skill, but begin at a novice, or do you remain regular schmoe, but your starting skills are higher and therefore you can join in on the plots without all the grind.

Quote from: helix on June 19, 2017, 11:22:58 PM

• Will players that currently have karma keep their options?
• Do players still have the ability to request classes/subclasses that are karma restricted via spec-app? If so, is that spec-app for a non-sorc, non-psi role considered your single spec app for the year?
• Will any of the new classes (speaking of class revamp) be karma restricted?
• Would it be possible that roles be advertised as karma uses, as well? (will explain more on this in my comments section)
• Are you considering population caps on any other karma-restricted classes/subclasses at this time?
• Would it be possible to trigger karma reviews after a certain amount of playtime in combination with real-time?

I don't think I can hit on the whole post but I'll at least try and address the questions here!

1) When the scale changes, karma options change.  There isn't any plan to grandfather anything in mostly because that would be a nightmare code wise.  Though with a few exceptions you should have almost the exact same options and likely many more after the conversion.

2) Yes, you can special app anything you like as long as it is within 2 karma of your max.  As I understand it there isn't a distinction between psion/sorc special applications or regular special applications so I believe it would count, yes.

3) New classes: I am glad you asked!  The first round of betas with the new classes are planned to be 0 karma with the idea that additional higher karma versions (read similar to skill bumps) will be tested to allow people to avoid some of the grind.

4) I think we'll have to think/talk about that, thanks for the idea.

5) Not that I am aware.  We aren't looking to cap other options.

6) Triggering based on in game would encourage a couple things that we aren't as interested in interjecting such as idling in order to get karma back and the impression that you HAVE to play and be online to get ahead (karma wise). 

There isn't any talk at the moment of moving any more mundane guilds to karma restrictions (ie. merchant). 

Thanks, Nathvaan and Tleilax, for answering, and that's pretty awesome. I do like the system; my only critique at the moment is the way that karma would regenerate.

Would you mind, perhaps, sharing your thoughts on the logic of the karma regeneration operating in the way that it is proposed? I'm not sure I grasp the purpose of having the first karma option regenerate slower on a 3-karma player than a 1-karma player, given that both have spent 100% of their available karma, and both are aiming to play a 1-karma role. Why would the 3-karma player have to wait an additional 60 days to play the same character type?

Also, I really appreciate answering the question on the new classes. I wasn't sure if that was something you guys would be willing to answer, very glad to see that you all are taking those into account in conjunction with these proposed changes as well. I see them as very intertwined.

Maybe people will just roll warriors and kill each other. Or karma roles. Especially karma roles.

I agree with helix's point above on the point regeneration. The number of days it takes to regenerate each point should be fixed, rather than escalating for how many karma a role is used for. Otherwise, I don't consider the waiting time for regeneration too extreme, per se, considering:

Quote
The end goal of this project is that all players that play by the rules and act as good players should be able to achieve the full 3 points of karma.  This would make 3 karma the norm, rather than the exception.  The ability to spend and regenerate karma is what will make this system work in terms of keeping balance within the game.

The stand on how this would encourage players  to become conservative over their karma roles is, frankly, rather inflated. That's really up to every individual player. Players who are action-driven will probably still go searching for it, regardless of role, and that goes vice-versa. Sure, the conflict might be brought about in a slow boil rather than this constant, stinging fry (...uh). Still, I honestly think the amount of murder, corruption, and betrayal wouldn't be any different from how it is now. A player who really wants action would go looking for it.

Just so I am 100% clear on this, if I have 1 karma pre change, I will still have 1 karma post change?

and what about 2 karma will those with 2 be bumped to 1 or will they remain at 2?

Just my two cents as a fairly new player:

I like the proposed change of a smaller karma scale.

I can get behind a karma regeneration system. But not as it's proposed now. 60-90 days is a hell of a long time. If anything, I feel like it further encourages treasuring higher-karma roles, playing it safe and even taking long breaks from the game. Shorten the wait time! Please? Pretty please?

My opinion on psionicists and sorcerers is fairly limited, but I agree with Fathi:

Quote from: Fathi on June 19, 2017, 10:44:31 PM
I think having a public hard limit on psions and sorcerers is a bad idea because like it or not, the OOC guild sniffing metagame is part of playing those guilds.

A suggestion? Maybe consider a soft cap of, say, 3-5 instead based on an interest list?

This sounds really interesting and I'm excited to see how the new class roll-outs will fold into this equation.

I have to agree however on the regen time frame. I would highly recommend it be a fixed 30 days per point. To regenerate 3 total points should take 90 days.. 3 rl months is really quite a long time and will certainly space out character types. If it doesn't, you can always extend the regen time a bit later, but starting smaller would seem to be more player-friendly.

Just my two cents, rock on with your bad selves!

Elsewise, I agree with Vox. Excited to see what comes of these upcoming changes!

Initial thoughts without reading this thread:
Hooray! I finally have max karma (got mul and 2 magicker subguilds)
Boo. I still have to special app sorcerer and psionicist.
Hooray my special app doesn't count if I do a John special and die straight away.

Recently Rathustra (or maybe Renentuet) raised a concern in that some (maybe many?) Will avoid taking numerous risks or buy into plotlines because they don't want to die. I'm worried that such slow then will exacerbate that tendency.

More thoughts to come.

While being on board with of most of the changes, the only concern I have is the extensive time (60 days) it takes to regain your first karma point.

What percentage of the players wanted these changes?

I am fine with the regen, I think it will work. I hope it isn't overly complex.

Yeah... a lower waiting time and fixed amount for each point might lessen the risk for that particular concern on players avoiding death. Still, I think it's a thing that will prevail whether or not karma plays into it. People get attached to their (our) characters, considering the amount of time and effort put into them.

How about making your karma instantly regenerate if you get PKed.

Will there still be a limit that no more than one karma point can be gained each review?  Meaning it is a minimum of 3 RL years to get to max karma?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 20, 2017, 01:59:33 AM
How about making your karma instantly regenerate if you get PKed.

... eheh. That's great. Some way to provide (automatic) incentives for conflict, in general.

OMG YOU'RE KILLING THE GAME IT'S DYING AND THRASHING AND YOU DIDN'T DO THIS WELL.


Just kidding.  I think everything looks pretty solid, particularly as guild and subguild balances continue to roll out.  I too think the regeneration and spending was entirely necessary (though that was moreso under the full mage times).

This is as someone who doesn't really use my karma much at all, so the only thing I'm really seeing for future reference is tweaks to the 'rate of regeneration'.

I like how both you will be able to play more things and how you won't expect someone in your five-person hunting group to manifest any more. (I'm just assuming witches are rarer than that, even though I say that knowing full well that most of you at the bar are aides.)

I don't think there's a perfect system. Let's just try it, if it doesn't work they'll switch back, right?

Pound for pound, its darn close to what I suggested a while back.  Yay!  On that note: I still believe there's a few ESGs that should be moved to 0 karma as they don't offer staggering powers, but a way to flesh out a concept.  Looking at things like grebber, majordomo, and other 1 karma current ESGs.

It's a good idea to take the edge off losing a karma character within a week by giving them a point back. However, I think the cushion should be 1 week IF the person has played at least 3 hours during that week, which is the standard noob rez time limit anyway. I would hate to be denied that consolation point just because my spec app was approved, I logged on once, went on vacation for a week, and then logged on again only to get killed by a drov beetle or something. So I'd put the grace period at 1 week or 3 hours, whichever comes second.

Regen is great, but like others, I also think it should be a bit faster. I don't think it should matter how many points you recently spent. I would prefer karma points to take 30 days each to regenerate, but I guess the 2nd and 3rd points could require progressively more regen time if it's really necessary.

I think regen at proposed durations is good that it prevents suicides, you know what I mean.
You may say that there is a mutual trust, good players shouldn't, and so on. But leaving too much to players goodwill creates issues especially towards systematic growth.  rules are healthier.

Well done! I like how all players should be able to get to max karma. I like that psi and sorc will now be special app only. Good changes.

Kudos to the staff who put time and work into designing this. It looks well thought out.

Perhaps allow Kudos, or just generally cool scenes that staff would find awesome to speed up karma regen.

Let's say say someone does something totally cool. Not enough to grant karma over it, but still pretty darn cool. A staffer watching over it would use some kind of a mechanism and that shaves off 10 days from karma regen. Let's say someone does something and receives a kudos, same thing happens.

I'm a little puzzled that 3 months is considered a long time to play a single character.  :o

I mean yeah, bad luck happens, but c'mon, it is absolutely possible to get involved and do stuff and live a few real life months. You don't have to play a suicidal (or homicidal) person to stir the pot. And if you really want to go that balls to the wall, warriors and pickpockets are 0 karma.

Quote from: Insigne on June 20, 2017, 12:48:49 AM
Just my two cents as a fairly new player:

I like the proposed change of a smaller karma scale.

I can get behind a karma regeneration system. But not as it's proposed now. 60-90 days is a hell of a long time. If anything, I feel like it further encourages treasuring higher-karma roles, playing it safe and even taking long breaks from the game. Shorten the wait time! Please? Pretty please?

I agree with Insigne, its a hell of a long time to wait, especially with gicker sub guilds, encouraging players to generally keep their karma "stored" just in case. Karma looking more like a consumable resource than a level of clearance for more demanding roles. Now don't get me wrong, thats not that bad to get behind of, its the waiting time and more parameters and rules to follow to get a character up and running that are bothering

Not to mention that if I used a level 3 karma option, I'd have to wait up to 6 months for it to fully get back up.

Quote from: Delirium on June 20, 2017, 09:48:29 AM
You don't have to play a suicidal (or homicidal) person to stir the pot. And if you really want to go that balls to the wall, warriors and pickpockets are 0 karma.

I'd be interested to see what people can do with the 0-karma classes and subguilds, myself, but I feel a lot of this is speculation until we see/hear the new Guild Revamp. It seems Custom-Crafting is going to be karma-gated, so if you want to be someone who adds items to the game, you need to survive on a couple characters for a while to "earn" it.

However, I too am worried about the regen rate. I definitely get the "3 karma offerings are so much more powerful that if you use all 3 karma, it will regenerate slower". 3 months is a long time, though. As other have noted, it just feels like its encouraging "safe" play if you enjoy your karma roles. HOWEVER, as I said before, it depends on how attractive the new 0-karma guilds/subguilds appear to be.

Make it a soft-cap for psionicists and sorcerers, say 3-5 as someone mentioned previously.

Not sure I understood the regeneration times, but it might work out.

Quote from: Miradus on June 19, 2017, 09:57:11 PM
I dislike the spend and regenerate aspect. If I earned two karma points then let me spend two karma points on each character. The world does not suffer if there's two protectors or outdoorsmen out there.

If it's a matter of mages being too frequent, put them on a whole separate system. Like mundane karma classes don't spend but mages do.

It's a livable system, I suppose, but I die frequently enough that I can see I'm going to spend a lot of time at 0 or 1 karma. Dying is going to feel like a punishment now, which is just going to screw over those like me who are on the explorer/achieve side of the Bartle chart.

ETA:

I'd like to add that maybe you could mitigate the pain of that by a karma refund for storage or adding in more rerolls per character.

Quote from: Decadent Decisions on June 19, 2017, 10:59:10 PM
I feel like the wait times are massive for some of these subguilds/setups. It seems unreasonable to wait 90 days to get to play some of these extended subguilds. On top of that, I'm not a fan of further long OOC wait times between these roles. I've hardly even ever played them, and I feel those wait times are massive. You have to wait three months to play a different (non-touched) elementalist (even for the 'cheapest' ones)? That's extreme. Further, must wait 6 months between any 3 karma applications, if yours dies? I get it, on the sorcs, and psions. I think they should be behind special applications. I don't necessarily think you should limit the number, and think ideally, the difficulty of getting to a point of playing them would limit them enough (more so with these wait times than anything), but I get that staff have quietly been pushing on that for a time now.

There's so much here that I'm just shaking my head at. I'm trying to nail down the major points though.

1.) The wait times are extreme.
2.) The extended subguilds that are right now placed among the 2 karma guilds are not worth 2 karma under this new system.
3.) The new design of the karma system DOES allow for more people to possibly play psions or sorcs. However, it greatly limits the amount of times you can play any given thing, in a way that's honestly worse than having fought to earn 5 karma under the old system. If people played too many powerful roles at once, or in a row, honestly, address that on a case by case basis. This is too much.
4.) 3 total points of karma is too low paired with the 'regen' and the amount of things for it to be spent on, especially for later on adding MORE stuff to spend it on. It seems like it'd be better off doing 5 with lesser wait times for the lower two karma points, and maybe a bit higher at the 5. Still, six months is too much.


Proposed changes to this system outlined?

-Bump total karma possible to 5.

Sorcerers and Psionicists are Special Application only, with only 1 allowed per year, with an unlimited number of each allowed in game. Must be at least 3 karma to apply for them (within the range of special application ideal). This would limit their presence (once a year per player that has ACCESS to them even), and wouldn't result in 3 super secret hardly logs-in psions/sorcs holding these spots for a while (or losing them when their RL interferes with their play times for a while).

5 Karma -Devastation, Travel, Agony, Mul

4 Karma -Illusion, Guile, Tempest

3 Karma - Half-Giant, Water and Stone Elementalists, Protector, Berserker, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

2 Karma - Outdoorsman, Rogue, Cutpurse, Slipknife

1 Karma - Desert elf, Water/Stone/Fire/Wind Touched. Master Tailor, Minstrel, Master Jeweler, Weaponsmith, Master Crafter, Master Armorsmith, Master Potter, Master Chef, Grebber, Apothecary, Master Trader, Majordomo.

With this system, I would propose a 2 week period between each point of karma, gained back steadily. Not escalating. That means if a MAX karma person apps for something stupid strong, they're still forced to wait at least 10 weeks to app the same. Non-refundable.

For the case of special applications, you can apply 3 higher than your current karma. You should stay at your 'current' level of karma under the new changes, with people 6-8 karma dropping to max karma of 5. (Do you really have anything to complain about, if you get access to the same things? Probably not.)

This ideally seems a better set up. As is, six months between the more powerful applications is too much. We're talking about a percent of a person's life, for a 20 year old game. I understand the elitism that is Armageddon, as it's a fantastic community for roleplaying, but let's please draw the line somewhere. I agree that players shouldn't have to wait 10 years to get to play the most powerful stuff in the game. But I would sooner stick to the old system than move to one where the amount of time between each is massive. I've gone away and almost never come back to the game purely by accident of getting distracted by other things in life. Furthering the confines of the player base within mundane or lesser codedly powerful roles doesn't serve to make the game more inviting or fun.

To anyone who whines about Armageddon needing to be low-magick, or simply have 'less' magick, I'm going to point to the very first paragraph on the 'Home' page of the website.

"Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things. Rather, it is about living out a character's sometimes short and always difficult life in the harsh world, Zalanthas. It is a world where sorcerer-kings and their ruthless servants, the Templarate, govern the two main cities, Allanak and Tuluk. Any magick not granted by the Kings is feared and hated, and where the punishment of such a curse might be death. In this harsh realm, life is a constant struggle, and death may occur over a drink of precious water."

You might come here to chop up people with bone swords. That's cool. I think many come here for this though. Let's not bog them down with massive wait times. Karma is about trust. If you trust a player to have the karma, you should trust them to be responsible with it. If they aren't responsible with it, take it away from them until such a time where they show to be responsible with it. Trying to blanket fix problems (like some people just continually re-apping powerful roles of Psions and Sorcs) will result in many people who don't have anything to do with it, nor having done any wrong suffering the consequences of someone else's bad behavior. I just want us enabling people not only to play the role they want, but also to play other ones they want too without needing to devote years to getting around to them all EVEN IF THEY DIE.

Even if you ignore all of my proposed changes, and want to stick SOLELY to the 3 karma system, I would suggest some sort of HEAVY reduction of the 'regen' times involved. You shouldn't have to wait more than 2 months to play any role that YOU already -earned- access to.

Quote from: helix on June 19, 2017, 11:22:58 PM
I agree with Dresan - I would completely remove the Sorc/Psi from the Karma tree and have them as sponsored roles. This keeps them small and gives staff great oversight onto them, and also places some kind of emphasis (whether real or imagined) that the character is a mover and a shaker and is meant to drive roleplay for other characters. As much as a templar, it could be viewed as a leadership role, though of the antagonist sort, usually.

As far as the karma system itself goes - my questions are thus:

• Will players that currently have karma keep their options?
• Do players still have the ability to request classes/subclasses that are karma restricted via spec-app? If so, is that spec-app for a non-sorc, non-psi role considered your single spec app for the year?
• Will any of the new classes (speaking of class revamp) be karma restricted?
• Would it be possible that roles be advertised as karma uses, as well? (will explain more on this in my comments section)
• Are you considering population caps on any other karma-restricted classes/subclasses at this time?
• Would it be possible to trigger karma reviews after a certain amount of playtime in combination with real-time?

So, wrote a whole bunch of questions, first thanks for answering any of them. I'm glad to see movement on the karma front, and am greatly anticipating the class revamp as well. Probably even moreso than a karma revamp. Couple comments I'd like to mention in regards to my questions:

I know I, and many other players who have karma, fought long and hard for it. In the past (granted, I haven't played in nearly ten years), karma was a hit-or-miss affair. I played a very, very long-lived, and renowned leader... and only a chance glance at my account by a friendly staffer (much later) netted me a couple karma when I put in for a very low-karma spec-app. I'd hate to be in that situation again, even if I don't use my karma options very often (read: ever).

I'm also curious if any of the new classes will be karma restricted; brokkr brought up an interesting idea that anything that can mastercraft is a restricted option. If that is then a consideration, would some mundane classes with exceptional crafting ability (i.e. merchant, as an example) be relegated to a karma-required class, or is that a subclass-only requirement?

I'd also be interested in knowing if you might consider opening up some generic, default 'roles' up as karma options. This worked well in SoI when I played there (though the RPP gain was much faster), and was able to get more advanced players into more advanced roles, where they can often benefit more players with their experience.

As far as a critique of the system, I will say that I think the karma regain mechanism seems a bit more complex than it needs to be, and doesn't quite make sense to me, though perhaps I'm thinking about it wrong.

If PlayerA has three karma and apps a mul, he will regain one karma again in 90 days.

If PlayerB has one karma and apps a vivaduan, he will regain one karma again in 30 days.

Let's say that both characters last 45 days. PlayerB is free to create another Vivaduan even though he spend 100% of his available karma, ad nauseam, whereas PlayerA must wait an additional 45 days for the same benefit.

The issue here does not seem to be how many vivaduans there are in the game world - only that PlayerA apped a 3-karma class and thus needs to wait 180 days before regaining his full karma, or 90 days for even playing a 1-karma class, whereas another player spending 100% of their max karma only has to wait 30 days.

It would seem a simpler system if the karma regenerated like:

1st point: 30 days to regenerate
2nd point: 60 days to regenerate
3rd point: 90 days to regenerate

Finally, I will say that I've seen a similar system work very well in SoI, though it did have the added feature of having some default, generic roles (like army Corporal, for instance) available for RPP - that helped quite a bit in a few cases, and those roles often came with some skill bumps and/or other small perks that made them worthwhile. I have great hopes!

Quote from: Jarvis on June 20, 2017, 09:58:47 AM

Quote from: Insigne on June 20, 2017, 12:48:49 AM
Just my two cents as a fairly new player:

I like the proposed change of a smaller karma scale.

I can get behind a karma regeneration system. But not as it's proposed now. 60-90 days is a hell of a long time. If anything, I feel like it further encourages treasuring higher-karma roles, playing it safe and even taking long breaks from the game. Shorten the wait time! Please? Pretty please?

I agree with Insigne, its a hell of a long time to wait, especially with gicker sub guilds, encouraging players to generally keep their karma "stored" just in case. Karma looking more like a consumable resource than a level of clearance for more demanding roles. Now don't get me wrong, thats not that bad to get behind of, its the waiting time and more parameters and rules to follow to get a character up and running that are bothering

This. Can't be bothered writing up my own response with a broken hand. Although I will say this: This is Armageddon. People die all the fucking time. It's important to remember that going forward with a Karma regen system.

We are in the process of actively discussing the regen time as well as the psion/sorc cap numbers among other things.  The feedback is appreciated.  Please feel free to keep it coming.

Has the following been considered:

Giving a player who has spec apped a psion or sorc the option to be put on an interest list if approved but if there are too many presently in game, and then filing from the list when the slots open up.

I could see myself getting very frustrated trying over and over again if the slots were full. But knowing that I'm on a wait list (and given the option to store a current pc or go back to the bottom of the list) would be much more bearable.

(PS sorry if this was addressed elsewhere, I'm on a 10 minute break and don't have time to read the whole thread.)

I'm okay with spend-and-regen; that's been in the works for a while, anyway, and it seems like a decent way to soft-cap things so that staff can trust it to be mostly automated, instead of everyone running around as a Master Cook all the time.

One thing that worries me is that moving from 8 to 3 points might be squishing the scale a bit much. Perhaps we should change one thing at a time, test out the regenerating karma scale, and then squish the scale after the kinks are worked out? Or move to a slightly larger scale to allow for more granularity.

Finally, if we're interested in the non-linear regeneration scale, might I suggest flipping it? As written, the first point of karma takes the longest, with the others coming faster. If the idea is to limit high-karma apps without being overly punishing, it seems like having the first point come back quickest and latter points regenerate more slowly is the way to go, since that will bias people toward playing on the lower end of the scale, instead of saving up all their karma to blow on the highest thing possible (since, after all, if you've already waited the long time for the first point, it's a short wait for the next).

Also, two questions:

• When this concept was first broached, it was intended that karma choices be additive, so that, for example, a desert elf bruiser would cost 3 points (using the new scale). Is that still intended? If so, it might be useful to have karma levels above the scale, so people can play half-giant devastators (which would be 5 karma)
• In the new karma system, would muls still be debarred from being magickal? The previous rationale was that giving muls full-guild magicks made them too powerful, and the previous IG rationale was that magick-touched muls would quickly be found out by their Houses and culled. With subguild magicks maybe neither's the case anymore. I'm really just curious, and not bothered either way by it.

Yeah. Action Jackson is going to end up stuck in a lot of Social Sally roles.

What's FUN is an Action Jackson IN a social role, going out and having some rough and tumble risky fun. But I have seen firsthand how people who are enjoying their character shrink from any possible risk and will completely shut down and withdraw (to the point of logging out for days) when there's a plot going on which risks their role.

Look at some of the extremely old players right now and you'll notice a propensity for low playtimes and lurking inside safe dens, only sending out Ways or interacting with disposable henchmen. Not just leadership people either.

I can't imagine that none of you long-time players have noticed this behavior.

There's some pretty decent no-karma combos out there. Warrior/nomad or warrior/bounty hunter is really fine and epic. Ranger anything is good. An assassin or pickpocket is really good at their guild role and can be paired with most anything for flavor. But I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with a couple of karma points who hardly ever goes back to the non-karma subguilds. And I don't mean gicks.

I like that staff is talking to us about this. I'll say that right now. Nothing as proposed is making me think that I'm going to run off and find another game to play. But I still would like to see some tweaks. Either to the regen times for karma or for the current karma costs of mundane subguilds.

I really don't know if I'm the oddball when it comes to character longevity (or lack thereof). I've never seen any hard metrics as to how long characters last. I've seen some extremely old characters in game, but I also could point out that those players do not play as much as I do. When you're logged out of the game you're pretty damned hard to kill.

I mean, I get the concerns. But that entrenched player behavior is not going to change by making it easier to roll karma after karma pc. Remember that we are squishing the karma scale so there will be a lot more players with karma options going forward.

The wait is ridiculously long. Maybe if you've been playing 10+ years and know everything, 6 IRL months or 3 IRL months doesn't seem like a long time. Me? I've been playing for six months. It is a very long time to me.

I've never gotten to play anything but zero karma classes. And now, it looks like I never really will. Because the moment I play something else, I'm going to die due to not knowing the mechanics of the anything other than mundane classes, because it's all SUPAH SEKRIT and then have to wait months to try again, so I'll have forgotten anything I learned and die again, and so on and so on.

Please, please, please, please reverse this system. It heavily favors long term, decades-old players and heavily disadvantages and discourages new blood.

While it is a bit orthogonal to the discussion at hand, one way to meet Miradus (et al.) and the Action Jackson point would be to add a new category to the Karma Evaluation section, namely the bold line (or something isomorphic to it with enough mutatises mutandisized) below:

Quote
Granting Karma:
Karma will be granted using existing criteria.  Each karma category can only be granted once. (i.e. Only 1 point for Roleplay, 1 point for Leadership etc.).  A level 3 player should still have achieved in 6+ areas.  On review multiple karma categories may be awarded. If not enough categories are awarded to move to the next level the category will be noted and used when next reviewing the account.

Level 0 - No criteria required
Level 1 - 1 or 2 points
Level 2 - 3 to 5 points
Level 3 - 6 or all 8 points
Karma criteria remains the same:
Longevity
Good communication
Ability to roleplay
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
Contributes to the game
Leadership
Makes things exciting for adventurers (a combination of kudo, independent staff observations, etc.)

One comment on using player kudos exclusively: a lot of us get them for the mudsexx, which isn't really optimal.  But some do come through, especially staff kudos, which are more about stirring things up.

I also wonder if we can streamline some of these categories.  Can't we eliminate longevity?  What does 'contributes to the game' mean?

Quote from: Tisiphone on June 20, 2017, 10:24:50 AM
Finally, if we're interested in the non-linear regeneration scale, might I suggest flipping it?

We are looking into this, yes.  We haven't really had enough time yet to crunch the numbers but we are looking into it.

Quote from: Tisiphone on June 20, 2017, 10:24:50 AM
Also, two questions:

• When this concept was first broached, it was intended that karma choices be additive, so that, for example, a desert elf bruiser would cost 3 points (using the new scale). Is that still intended? If so, it might be useful to have karma levels above the scale, so people can play half-giant devastators (which would be 5 karma)
• In the new karma system, would muls still be debarred from being magickal? The previous rationale was that giving muls full-guild magicks made them too powerful, and the previous IG rationale was that magick-touched muls would quickly be found out by their Houses and culled. With subguild magicks maybe neither's the case anymore. I'm really just curious, and not bothered either way by it.

As to the additive vs cascading, we looked at having an additive system but settled on a cascading one.  By that I mean you 'spend' the number karma used for the highest option but all lower options are available.

All the previous restrictions (for good IC reasons) are still in place and will continue to be in place.  This includes muls not being magickal, psions being human only and HGs having minimal magick ability. 

Hopefully that covers your questions! Thanks for asking.

As far as the concern for the wait time...

Isn't that kind of the point?  I'd read it as a way of keeping people from playing the 2 karma options over and over.  Six months of wait time isn't that big when you consider it's meant for two characters instead of one.  Or three characters, instead of one?

Make dwarves 1 karma.

Throwing in my two cents of feedback as a casual, achiever-oriented player who hasn't had time to read this entire thread carefully (or really play much in the last few years ...).

I like the changes. Except ...

I don't think the extended subguilds should be behind a karma wall. It requires trust and knowledge of the game world/culture to play a half-giant responsibly. Aggressor not so much. Seems like apples and oranges to be lumping subguilds in with desert elf, gicker, half-giant, etc.

Quote from: Thunkkin on June 20, 2017, 11:04:12 AM
Throwing in my two cents of feedback as a casual, achiever-oriented player who hasn't had time to read this entire thread carefully (or really play much in the last few years ...).

I like the changes. Except ...

I don't think the extended subguilds should be behind a karma wall. It requires trust and knowledge of the game world/culture to play a half-giant responsibly. Aggressor not so much. Seems like apples and oranges to be lumping subguilds in with desert elf, gicker, half-giant, etc.

That really sort of highlights this.

Some of the extended subguilds just let me start out with a skill I'd eventually get anyway. You can't make any sort of an argument that starting out with parry disrupts the game world balance on characters that are going to end up with parry anyway.

Or that having a merchant who can parry and block with a shield so he can successfully move from Luir's to Morin's without hiring the Byn is somehow upsetting to game balance.

Is an assassin/protector more dangerous than an assassin/thug? In some ways, but that assassin is still likely to die at the hands of a Templar's half giant soldier.

It's possible the regen time isn't the dial we need to be turning, but rather looking at where the subguilds sit on the karma scale.

In fact, the game documents all refer to "spending" karma for some other type of game system that was before my time and apparently never manifested beyond a change in the documentation. So I'd say that the current karma costs/configuration are outdated even for the CURRENT system, much less the proposed system.

I dislike the kudos system due to its arbitrary nature and would advise against using it for anything reward/punitive. I got the most player kudos praising a specific character's behavior that staff was discouraging me from engaging in, so it's clear to me that the players and staff are not necessarily in sync with what makes a fun world.

I'm also against a kudos system, but just because it would make me very derelict in a duty to send kudos.  As is, I'm all-around generally pleased with almost all interactions I have in the game.  Sometimes I think 'Well that wasn't a good idea', or 'Well, they clearly see this thing different than I do and that's going to make their life in game hard', but as a whole...generally pleased.

But with that in mind, I don't send kudos often.  I send them when someone either totally rocks my socks with their play, or they engage in play that is a big contribution that is generally subjected to much harsher scrutiny (i.e. Raiding).  So if we rated karma off of kudos, I'd...feel bad that I didn't send them more, but that wouldn't necessarily make me send them more.

As Nathvaan said we are talking about the regen rate and running through various combinations of numbers. However, the point of having regenerating karma is to have a method to ensure game balance in terms of PC classes being a more accurate representation of the game world.

Previously this was done by restricting karma. Making it harder to achieve.  So much so that most people were never going to get beyond 3 karma points. This way we're opening it up so that people should be able to get ALL options in the karma scale. The trade off is that they have to balance that with downtime in their choices if they have a shorter lived PC.

The guild revamp coming up should add some exciting options at the 0 karma level. Additionally once that is done we will be looking at subguild tweaks and additions. I expect that we will shift things around the karma scale as time and information comes in from the changes. Karma subguilds are one point that is likely to shift in the future. For now they are on the karma scale so that we can get a more accurate feel for how things play out. There are some karma subguilds that will never be at 0 karma. If the subguild offers advantages at a level different to everything else in that karma (or 0 karma level) or represents an amount of work and time (such as mastercrafting) then its placement on the karma scale will reflect that.

Quote from: Thunkkin on June 20, 2017, 11:04:12 AMI don't think the extended subguilds should be behind a karma wall. It requires trust and knowledge of the game world/culture to play a half-giant responsibly. Aggressor not so much. Seems like apples and oranges to be lumping subguilds in with desert elf, gicker, half-giant, etc.

Quote from: Miradus on June 20, 2017, 11:21:21 AM
Some of the extended subguilds just let me start out with a skill I'd eventually get anyway. You can't make any sort of an argument that starting out with parry disrupts the game world balance on characters that are going to end up with parry anyway.

+1.

I can get behind the sentiment of these. I don't necessarily agree with bumping these subguilds down to zero karma (but correct me if I misunderstood the point being made here). Perhaps lessening the wait time of karma-required, mundane subguilds since they aren't hurting any accurate representation of the game world?

Edit: Then again, my opinion of the regeneration system pretty much amounts to HOLYSHITTWOTOSIXMONTHS!?!? so I would probably be holding up a huge thumbs-up for any solution that meant lesser waiting times.

I'm fairly new to Armageddon, and as such it should be noted that my perspective on certain things can be... shortsighted in that way. I started playing in March and for the most part, I keep to myself. That being said having read over the suggestions and feedback presented here, I'll offer my two cents on what I think is a good adjustment overall.

• Extended subguilds (mundane) that require karma should continue to have a baseline requirement for karma. However I don't think when creating a character using one of these subguilds karma should be "used" so to speak. I think by doing this, people who have earned karma will still always have an option for a character beyond what is available for someone who just started playing. This also enables them to play something like an enhanced mundane character without having to worry about losing karma points for something else. Save the karma expenditure on this for skill bumps, etc. So say for instance player A has 0/3 karma. The game recognizes that he has a possibility of having three karma, so it lets him create a character using the protector subguild without any additional time cost in accumulating those three karma points


• Given how sudden and random death can be in the game (at least in my experience) I think the regeneration for karma should be a flat 30 days per point.
  3/3 Karma, use one, still have two left - takes 30 days to get back to three. Use two, takes 60 days, etc. I think it's important to have this regenerate at a moderate pace. I believe this because if roles like half-giants, gickers, etc are constricted the people who do finally get to play one of these roles will be so careful and reserved in how they play for fear of losing all the time they spent waiting to accumulate the karma required to play the role.

Maybe it's just my generation, but even now I feel that waiting three years just to play a Mul or a Destro Krathi is a stretch at best. I feel that given how old the game is, I'm probably one of the youngest people that play this game, and I love it. I really do. But having said that, I'm a particular person. I like reaching long term planned goals, but a lot of my generation prefer instant gratification. I can see why many people would turn away from an experience like Armageddon when there are so many other games out there that offer reward much quicker. Having said that, I'd like to suggest one final thing.

I think the special application request should stand as is, with reflection towards the possible karma scale shrinkage. I think once a year is really way too little for that amount of time. In regards to psionicists and sorcerers, consider making these classes - and perhaps others like Nilazis, Drovians, Elkrosians an arbitrary four, or five karma cost. The amount of karma a player can reach should remain three, but to apply for one of these roles they'd need to use a special application, either at 2/3 karma, or 3/3 karma with all of the "spent" karma that comes of using these points. It's my belief that it should remain a three per year thing. I know it causes a larger workload on the staff, and to be honest I have no idea how this really works - but if someone makes a special application for one of these roles, require them to state a long term plan. Have them choose where and how they're going to play their character, and give the storytellers for that particular area or clan the option of approving or declining these requests.

Personally, all of this aside, the one thing I am most personally interested in are mutant roles. I haven't really heard any discussion how these types of roles would play a factor into the new system. Using my suggestions, a mutant role could vary from cost depending on the scale of mutation, power of mutation, etc. This would give even more variability and life to mundane or otherwise characters. This is another reason why I think the special application feature should remain as it is. Others have suggested making psionicists and sorcerers roles that can only be applied for via role call, perhaps this isn't such a bad idea. Despite wanting to play these classes, perhaps it's for the best.

I apologize in advance if my lack of knowledge or experience gives my opinions and thoughts less body than would be adequate. I really have been enjoying this game since picking it up. I just wanted to offer a perspective of things from someone that is relatively new to things around here.

I am a little bothered about the long karma regeneration times, but then again, this represents a karma nerf, which I am fine with. Karma is OP anyway, and it'd be fun to have more reason to roll up lower karma roles. They now have the advantage of having less pressure to be very long lived.

Otherwise, I don't mind any of these changes. I appreciate that the categories by which points are earned are basically the same, because I like those, and found it easier to get to my karma level with them as at least half of the categories are objective -- knowledge of the game world, etc. This is more just a way of how karma is spent/used. I was worried that the way in which staff judge who gets karma was going to change, but now that I know that it won't, I can still assure my friends who play this game that they can get karma if they put in the effort to play roles that fit the setting.

I like the change overall.

Here are my concerns:
1) Karma regen, seems slow for people who die frequently (especially new players and explorer-type players).
     When I first started playing, it wasn't unthinkable to go through two characters in a week (I apped 3 in one day once before I learned my way around and where not to go).  I guess the higher you go on the scale, the longer your PCs will live on average, but it seems like the system favors some types of players: those who like to play safe social/flavor roles over those who who like to -do- stuff that is risky and -fun- from the average gamer's perspective (explorers, raiders, thieves, assassins)  To me, it has felt like many game changes and policy discussions over my time here have been moving in that direction.

2) Hard limit on sorcs/psions (or anything for that matter). 
     What happened when those three people are only playing a 1-5 hours a week?  They're not interacting with or adding anything to the game's other players but the top pick on the waiting list would? One has an unexpected month+ leave and has to either hold up other players chance of trying them out, is force-stored, or stores out of guilt and loses their PC, that they can't try again for a year.  These roles may be low-interest enough with the spec app limit of one/year in place to prevent it, but I would hate for the waiting list to end up  being years deep since more players will have access to the waiting list. 
I don't want there to be more than three (or even one or two) active powerful sorcerers/psions running around any more than anyone else, but I do think it benefits the playerbase and game world for sorcerery and psionics to be a real fear and perceived threat to the status quo if not the safety of the denizens of the Known World.  I've always thought staff did a good job of organically regulating magick and clan caps after the "end of days" plots of the Quick/Gin/CAM days.  I hope it is their intent to do the same going forward and not assign an arbitrary number to an ever-changing playerbase.

Quotethose who like to play safe social/flavor roles over those who who like to -do- stuff that is risky and -fun- from the average gamer's perspective (explorers, raiders, thieves, assassins)

This is probably a quibble on something you don't intend to express, but:

I find myself increasingly annoyed with this seemingly pervasive idea that because you are long-lived, you must be a tavern-sitter (and/or a fraidy cat reclusive) PC who never takes any real risks. I... I beg to differ. Not only do I tend to be long-lived and a risk taker, I have seen many examples to the contrary. HARUMPH.  :-[

Do some long-lived PCs stay that way because they hide from consequence? Maybe, sure. But on the flip side, some of you guys who can't seem to stay alive for more than a few days make me want to shake my fists at the sky. I try to include you in my plots and then never see you again because you just had to backstab a scrab.

My point is, it takes all kinds. Some backbone to the game is fine to help offset the lemming problem.

Some are, some aren't. I can't speak for all of them. There's some characters roaming around now who I see out and about all the time (with my different characters) and I'm amazed they've survived. And there's other long term characters who I know survive by logging in for 30 minutes every few days and literally never going outside of the Gaj or the Gaj's adjoining quit room. (Or the one in Red's.)

There's a threshold with action-oriented PC's at which point they're hard to kill. They literally won't die to that proverbial scrab. They're going to die to PK or something hard-coded in game, like a fall or a bigtime poison. Or they're going to go linkless as pair of rantarri amble out of the woods or while spamming past twitchy wearing a pair of fancy pants.

If you make it over that threshold, then you can usually do some action AND be long-lived. But we all have the pain of rolling up the new character, getting great stats, and then falling off the mount just as 5 tarantulas erupt from the sand and the reeling begins.

It sucks when you've just been introduced to 3-4 of those long-term characters and hooked into their plots and then you get scrabbed or tarantularized, but it's going to suck even worse when NOW you have to wait 150 days before you can have a master crafter again or someone who starts with city/outdoor hide.

There are still plenty of low level options, though, so I guess I don't see what the problem is?

Quote from: boog on June 20, 2017, 02:40:13 PM
There are still plenty of low level options, though, so I guess I don't see what the problem is?

Maybe there isn't one. I had fun when I was playing the no karma options too, so I guess it's not the end of the world.

But here's kind of the rub ... some of you guys have had access to these karma options for over a decade and you're telling us newbies "hey, it's no big deal that you're now only going to get sporadic access to them. You'll still get to play maybe 2 a year."

When you've literally tried out every combination in every clan, north and south, left-handed, right-handed, and double-fisted.

But some of us newbs? I'm still working my way through that list based on whatever roleplaying concepts I can come up with. And looking to insert those concepts and skills I've just relatively recently gained access to into the game world in a more meaningful way than the Randy Ranger whose only impact is a rotting corpse in the grasslands.

So 3 years to earn enough karma to try out the options and then I can try one of the 21 options every 150 or so days? That's 11.6 years to work through that list.

Just seeing the math wants to make me say 'fuck that' and go take up golf.

Um, I've been playing for .... I think 12 years now... and I've still never played some guild/subguild combinations.

Or in the rinth. Or long-term in Red Storm. Or a half-giant, or a dwarf. Or ... or...

I mean, I look at it in a completely different light - after all these years there are still new things for me to try.

I get that. And it's one of the coolest things about Arm.

That and the fact that you can come back to something a year later (like the Guild or the Arabet) and find it completely different than your experience before simply because the players have changed. It means there's no "end game" to Armageddon. It will always change.

But I don't like my activities gated by "time". Just waiting on character approval makes me tear my hair out.

Quote from: Delirium on June 20, 2017, 02:06:20 PM

Quotethose who like to play safe social/flavor roles over those who who like to -do- stuff that is risky and -fun- from the average gamer's perspective (explorers, raiders, thieves, assassins)

This is probably a quibble on something you don't intend to express, but:

I find myself increasingly annoyed with this seemingly pervasive idea that because you are long-lived, you must be a tavern-sitter (and/or a fraidy cat reclusive) PC who never takes any real risks. I... I beg to differ. Not only do I tend to be long-lived and a risk taker, I have seen many examples to the contrary. HARUMPH.  :-[

Do some long-lived PCs stay that way because they hide from consequence? Maybe, sure. But on the flip side, some of you guys who can't seem to stay alive for more than a few days make me want to shake my fists at the sky. I try to include you in my plots and then never see you again because you just had to backstab a scrab.

My point is, it takes all kinds. Some backbone to the game is fine to help offset the lemming problem.

Appologies, if it came off like that. I don't think that at all. I have played some rather long lived characters and very rarely roll up anything that would resemble a tavern sitter.  Neither do I think tavern sitting or playing it safe is a bad thing.  Every role type helps in an RPI.  Even my reclusive nomads need a little tavern time to talk people up from time to time.
Explorers and people who enjoy the combat code (especially newer players who don't know how to OOC their way around instadeath rooms, spider caves, kryl spawn rooms, pickpocketing the uber-baddass warriors in the rinth, etc) shouldn't be punished or their options limited for the way they like to play, either.

I'd just like to point to a moment in our game's history where the players felt that there were too many karma characters active in the game.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.0.html

I'm sure there was a heck of a lot going on at that same time (end of the world plots, powerful magickers not dying as often) but it happened, and we shouldn't forget how the world 'felt' when there was a lot of people surviving.


Adhira stated that they want to have the playerbase in a spot where -everybody- has 3 karma.  That's their end goal.
They also want to have it so the world doesn't get 'full' of sorcerers.



I feel like -
We want to tell other people they can't play magickers because there's too many, but we want to be able to play our own magickers whenever we want.  :|

Adding to my previous post, not replying to Mansa's:
Playing long lived explorer and combat-heavy types long lived takes a lot of world knowledge that the character would probably know, but the player doesn't.
You could play every PC in nearly every clan for years and not explore half the world (sometimes because leaders or their players don't think those areas are worth risking their PC/self or their crew), so even "playing it safe" in a clan, gets boring for us eventually.

A good example of this is the Whiran of mine someone asked about in the "whatever happened to..." thread: He died because I didn't know that [Leave, Enter] exits worked differently than [N, E, S, W] exits when it comes to Whiran defensive spells.  That's not an IC feature, it's a limit of the game that you have to change the way you play around it in order to survive.  Thankfully staff has done a great deal toward eliminating many things like this in the past.

Sometimes you have to die a lot to learn how not to die.
As I said earlier, this is a problem that is more of a problem for newer players who won't have as much karma to wait on regenerating either.

How about if you feel you deserve (or really need) karma to regenerate quicker, you can just put in a staff request explaining why? They could review it case-by-case and if it's a fair or compelling reason, they manually tick the karma regen.

Quote from: Kialae on June 20, 2017, 04:43:51 PM
How about if you feel you deserve (or really need) karma to regenerate quicker, you can just put in a staff request explaining why? They could review it case-by-case and if it's a fair or compelling reason, they manually tick the karma regen.

Because you'll get into trouble that way (not you, but the player/staff relationship).

It'll be the same as rerolls.

wish all Can I get a reroll? Every stat is poor or below.

A staff sends, "That sucks. My deepest sympathy. But ... policy is no."

Quote from: Miradus on June 20, 2017, 02:51:26 PM

Quote from: boog on June 20, 2017, 02:40:13 PM
There are still plenty of low level options, though, so I guess I don't see what the problem is?

Maybe there isn't one. I had fun when I was playing the no karma options too, so I guess it's not the end of the world.

But here's kind of the rub ... some of you guys have had access to these karma options for over a decade and you're telling us newbies "hey, it's no big deal that you're now only going to get sporadic access to them. You'll still get to play maybe 2 a year."

When you've literally tried out every combination in every clan, north and south, left-handed, right-handed, and double-fisted.

But some of us newbs? I'm still working my way through that list based on whatever roleplaying concepts I can come up with. And looking to insert those concepts and skills I've just relatively recently gained access to into the game world in a more meaningful way than the Randy Ranger whose only impact is a rotting corpse in the grasslands.

So 3 years to earn enough karma to try out the options and then I can try one of the 21 options every 150 or so days? That's 11.6 years to work through that list.

Just seeing the math wants to make me say 'fuck that' and go take up golf.

As a veteran player who has been here off and on since like '95.. I can say this concern is dead on. I have played every major guild/race and combined them with almost every sub guild combination. I know the geography of the entire exploitable Known like I know Los Angeles where I live(surprisingly similar to Allanak..). My learning curve was steep and it took countless deaths and terrible experiences in-game with so many characters I can't even count them over the last 22 years. We live, we die, we live again. So I definitely hear Miradus and agree that the biggest impact the karma regen factor will have will be on new players getting to experience/learn these gated classes. I'm glad Nathvaan and Adhira have mentioned that the regen rate is being debated in immland, I have no doubt that whatever they decide will reflect these concerns.

@Delirum: I heart you. I wish more long-lived PC's played like you do.

Edited to add: @Mansa: I always wish there were more magickers/scaryshit running around to be afraid of.. :P and I heart you too.

My obligatory gripe is potentially being locked out of options like extended subguilds. I think it's excellent that more people will have the opportunity to play more character types, but it doesn't improve MY experience if things like mundane character options are locked behind a timegate.

Another stab at a combo idea:

If you only have 1 karma max and use it, you can now play any 0 karma character for the next 30 days. You can earn a 2nd during that time but you still have to wait the 30 days before you can play another 1-karma character.

Once you have a 2nd point and have been "clear" (see above) for at least 30 days, you are now free to play any 0 OR 1-karma point character, which has to then "clear" for 30 days before you can play a 1 or 2 karma character. If you pick a 2-karma character, you have to wait 60 days total (but you can still play the 0 or 1 karma during that period).

Once you have all 3 points - you can play a 0 or 1 karma character without having to worry about a 30-day wait. A 2-karma role will require that 30 day wait. A 3-karma role will require a 60-day wait.

Sorcs and psis are special app only, must have at least 2 karma to app it, and it's restricted how Mansa suggested - a percentage of the current active playerbase.

Imagine if all extended subguilds took up one of the three special character applications you were allowed a year, and then they were made more freely available as a test of their impact, recently.

.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2017, 05:50:21 PM
Imagine if all extended subguilds took up one of the three special character applications you were allowed a year, and then they were made more freely available as a test of their impact, recently.

(http://www.gifimagesdownload.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/latest-i-see-what-you-did-there-gif-330.gif)

I'm still working on a long ass post which captures all my thoughts. But for now my thoughts on regen and sorcerer/psionicist characters is complete.

The limitation to 1 sorcerer/psionicist per year only stops people who can't make a character survive at least 12 months from playing nothing but sorcerer/psionicist characters. Those who can't make a sorcerer/psionicist last longer than a month are extremely affected by the 1 per year limitation.

So the question staff need to consider is what percentage of "karma 8 or nothing" players routinely survive 12 months? If the answer is most, or even half, then the rule of 1 per year per player does nothing to stop them. If you really wanted to stop them you would need to change it to "you can't playa sorcerer or psionicist until X months past after your last one died" (X could be 3 months, or 6 months or even 12 months).

Delirium: Staff have noticed a propensity for SOME players to protect their characters from danger by not buying into plots and avoiding RPTs. It is enough of a concern for Staff to raise it for discussion at least once. Karma regen will only encourage more players (not all of them, just more of them) and it will exacerbate the issue among those who do it already. It's a valid point for Staff to consider before deciding to implement these features and how to do so.

That said. I never choose 0 karma subguils so thisb would fix that.

I don't like any mundane subguild (extended or otherwise) being on a timer. Is it really so destabilizing to the gameworld that people can make characters with better-rounded skill sets?

Going to say that I think 30 days flat per karma point is reasonable. Don't prevent people from playing what they want, I can't imagine that to end well. Personally, I make chars based on roles, so this is more likely going to cause people to make more throwaways or just stop playing until their karma points retick. Something that encourages storage or encourages exceedingly cautious play isn't a good thing.

Also - are people currently with Karma 5 thus losing two options - Whira Travel and Krathi Agony?  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

I think that a hard cap on sorcs will, as Fathi says, lead to a lot of meta game knowledge. If you've bumped into 2 characters who are sorcerors, boom, there you go, you don't have to worry about that any longer. If you run into a sorceror again, boom - probably one of those two characters.

Mostly, I feel that I keep losing out by not having ever applied these roles in the past. Elkros, Nilaz...gone, now sorcerors/psions gated. What happens if I make an enchantment sorceror and figure out I'd rather have made a war sorc or something? Will I then be waiting 2, 3 or more years to play another one?

The time nerf would be a lot easier to deal with if the karma required magickal subguilds were more explicitly described in their helpfiles such as for what spells and abilities are granted.

After thinking it over some, I agree with Bogre above and others that I feel like the karma regeneration rate seems punitive toward people who might roll up a PC and just discover they don't like it.

Sometimes you roll up a character and for whatever reason, it doesn't click. Almost every PC I have that I put more than 5 days of playtime into has lived to like 60+ and multiple RL years, but there are little short lived quickly stored characters in between those because I just found I didn't enjoy playing them. Sometimes it's because a concept sounds better in your head than it plays out ingame. Sometimes it's because you find out your guild/subguild combination doesn't quite do what you thought it did. Sometimes it's because you get a different idea and just feel like playing something else.

Every time I've gotten stuck in a role I don't enjoy that much, staff and players alike have said it's no big deal to just store and reroll. Except now in some instances it would be.

The last time I quick-stored a PC, it was a Ranger/Whiran because I thought I'd give one of the new subguild Whirans a go. I then realised shortly into playing him that I was just not interested in playing another ranger, having played a shitload of them. I stored him and apped a mundane assassin PC with a mundane extended subguild.

Under the new system I wouldn't be able to do that. But who exactly is it hurting? Is it really that much of a balance issue?

Sometimes you roll a high-karma PC and discover it's not that fun for whatever reason and want to try something else out. I don't feel like players should be punished for not having fun in a role and wanting to move on to something else.

I suppose you can argue that people should put more thought and care into their concepts rather than just flinging high-karma characters out into the world, but sometimes the chips just don't fall where you hoped they would and a character doesn't end up as fun as it sounded in your head. The idea of having to wait 6 months to get my karma back because I tried out a PC and didn't like it seems pretty harsh.

A flat 30 day wait per point would be a lot more sensible imo. Then if you wanted to move on from playing a Whiran to an Apothecary like I did--two very different roles, one of which is totally mundane and not game breaking at all--you wouldn't have to wait three months.

Most of the time this system wouldn't have any effect on me since my characters live for quite a while, but I am concerned that the long regen times could lead to a lot of player frustration for situations like the one I outlined above.

Yeah you can just say "so if you wanna play that concept so bad and you haven't waited 90 days, play it as a subguild Physician" but you know what? I think this is a game we play for fun and players should be allowed to play what they enjoy. If having a slightly different mundane skillset that they've earned the karma to play is the thing they want to play, a three month wait seems extreme.

Going on some of what Fathi said above, I just think the massive wait times are going to encourage people to not bother investing in their codedly much weaker characters (which can end up lasting for a while, or meeting great people) only to regret not having waited the time later. Then they'll try to wait the time. Then RL will snatch you, and you may never come back to the game. This has happened to me once, even. With these proposed wait times, I'd probably have never come back, whether by intention or accident. Getting back immediately into the game with hope as to being great or interesting again, is often the only thing that lets me move on past some of my super involved, much adored (OOC at least, if kudos are any judge) characters.

I'm waiting to see what the new guild rollout will look like before insisting that the wait time for karma regen is too long. I "think" it's too long, but I'm not married to that opinion yet.

For all we know, the new 0-karma options will have enough variety and "fun" in them that it won't matter that you have to wait 30 days to play something more karma-restrictive.

For now, I'm pessimistically hopeful, or optimistically doubtful. Erring on the side of "I think it's probably too much time to have to wait."

Quote from: John on June 20, 2017, 06:49:04 PM
That said. I never choose 0 karma subguils so thisb would fix that.

John, wouldn't this only fix that if your characters couldn't survive long enough to regen a point of karma?

Quote from: whitt on June 20, 2017, 08:54:22 PM

Quote from: John on June 20, 2017, 06:49:04 PM
That said. I never choose 0 karma subguils so thisb would fix that.

John, wouldn't this only fix that if your characters couldn't survive long enough to regen a point of karma?

Correct. However I am in the boat of "characters typically don't last 6 real life months" so I would be affected by it. Now anyone who can easily have characters survive 6 months, and going off what Fathi said: Such players (if not enjoying their current character) will be incentivised to just continue playing the same character they're not liking (and thus likely log in less and be more likely to take a break) or they'll just take a break for 6 months.

I don't like systems that encourage people to not play. However there is no way to have a limitation on karma options and not have people be less likely to play. How much of an impact this will have on people taking breaks from the game is unknown and cannot be known until it gets trialled.

Gotcha.  If the flat 30-day per point option isn't an option.  Would it be less disruptive if they flipped the scale?

1st point back in 30 days
2nd point back  60 days after the first
3rd point back 90 days after the second

Low(er) karma point players wait less long to have some karma back, higher karma roles take the same (long) amount of time to regen.

I feel like one solution could be to have four points instead of three:

1 - mundane extended subguild roles
2 - lower tier mage roles
3 - upper tier mage roles
4 - sorc/psion

Flat regen rate of 30 days per karma point. That way 1 karma players aren't rerolling a magicker every month, but they also don't have to wait more than a month to roll up another extended subguild concept.

We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

I kinda like Whitt's idea of swapping them around, in the case that it 'needs' to be changed from its current form.

But out of my last several characters, the longest lived and most prolific were all...not extended subguilds...so from my personal perception, they're being given a little too much weight, to where people seem to be saying they refuse to play one without extended subs.  That is just my perception, from the responses.

Edit:  Ah.  Nathvaan does goods.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 20, 2017, 10:38:38 PM
1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

All seem reasonable.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 20, 2017, 10:38:38 PM
We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

I really like these suggested changes. They would mitigate a lot of my concerns.

I will ask though - is there a reason why a flat amount of time per point seems to be something staff isn't interested in? I am merely curious because that seems like such a simpler solution.

Edited to say: I hope my tone didn't come off as NATHVAAN, JUSTIFY YOURSELF TO ME. I changed the wording of my post a little. Basically I was just wondering rather like Tisiphone mentioned if it might be best to start these changes off super simple and then adjust as necessary.

I think it's a move in the right direction, those updated times. I still think it's too much though. Four months to play your 3 karma role that you've earned is still a lot of time. Honestly, how many 6 karma people were just consistently rerolling that level of character that staff felt the need to push it this hard out? Again, it feels like blanket solutions to individual player problems.

Even ignoring the amazing side of the game that is those higher end roles, a month between extended subguilds is harsh.

Just weighing in, it's a move in the right direction, but not what I think would be ideal. Part of the problem I think with such a massive time wait is how there's only 3 points of karma. It's why in my original post, I suggested five. So that you could basically have various lower options with a set (faster) regen rate.

If your regen rate was 2 weeks a point, and you had five points, you'd see 2.5 months for the max karma, and as little as 2 weeks between extended subguilds (if yours just happened to get scrabbed right out of the gate...pun intended).

Fathi mentioned earlier about storing characters that she's just not feeling very invested in. Perhaps some sort of partial karma point "refund" for characters that are stored; halved but rounded up (1/2 karma roles would refund 1 karma, 3 karma roles would refund 2)?

But, with the adjustment to the time frame for karma regenerating at 30 days, 45 and 45 - I could get on board for that.

Quote from: Delirium on June 20, 2017, 09:55:29 PM
I feel like one solution could be to have four points instead of three:

1 - mundane extended subguild roles
2 - lower tier mage roles
3 - upper tier mage roles
4 - sorc/psion

Flat regen rate of 30 days per karma point. That way 1 karma players aren't rerolling a magicker every month, but they also don't have to wait more than a month to roll up another extended subguild concept.

This is pretty much my ideal system too although I'm fine with nipping off #4 for sorc/psion and leaving them special app only.

Quote from: Fathi on June 20, 2017, 11:31:44 PM

Quote from: Delirium on June 20, 2017, 09:55:29 PM
I feel like one solution could be to have four points instead of three:

1 - mundane extended subguild roles
2 - lower tier mage roles
3 - upper tier mage roles
4 - sorc/psion

Flat regen rate of 30 days per karma point. That way 1 karma players aren't rerolling a magicker every month, but they also don't have to wait more than a month to roll up another extended subguild concept.

This is pretty much my ideal system too although I'm fine with nipping off #4 for sorc/psion and leaving them special app only.

+1.

The suggested modifications all seem reasonable. Like Fathi, though, I'm also curious why a flat-rate might be out of the question?

Quote from: Fathi on June 20, 2017, 11:31:44 PM

Quote from: Delirium on June 20, 2017, 09:55:29 PM
I feel like one solution could be to have four points instead of three:

1 - mundane extended subguild roles
2 - lower tier mage roles
3 - upper tier mage roles
4 - sorc/psion

Flat regen rate of 30 days per karma point. That way 1 karma players aren't rerolling a magicker every month, but they also don't have to wait more than a month to roll up another extended subguild concept.

This is pretty much my ideal system too although I'm fine with nipping off #4 for sorc/psion and leaving them special app only.

This, but I also think that touched should remain at 1 karma.

Do the rest of the extended subguilds really have to be at the second karma level? I'm not so sure they unbalance the game world.

Quote from: Decadent Decisions on June 20, 2017, 11:22:23 PM
I think it's a move in the right direction, those updated times. I still think it's too much though. Four months to play your 3 karma role that you've earned is still a lot of time. Honestly, how many 6 karma people were just consistently rerolling that level of character that staff felt the need to push it this hard out? Again, it feels like blanket solutions to individual player problems.

Eh, I don't know. I feel that four months is pretty fair for roles that high in the karma scale, considering that the goal is for "3 karma to be the norm". When/if that works out, then the wait combats the chance of a massive surge of apps for high-karma roles. There are a ton of choices in the lower to 0-karma range, too, that people (including me, admittedly) begin to overlook as they gain karma. I don't see how four months should be a problem.

Otherwise, the modifications look great!

Quote from: Fathi on June 20, 2017, 11:19:26 PM
I will ask though - is there a reason why a flat amount of time per point seems to be something staff isn't interested in? I am merely curious because that seems like such a simpler solution.

I'll try and explain as I understand it.  The idea is that 3 karma will be norm, not the exception, in a moderate period of time.  This being said, the thought it that a non-linear progression (previously logarithmic growth) would put the correct amount of, I'll call it 'downward pressure' to try and limit the number of higher karma roles while having lower karma options a little more prevalent. This new possibility is a good deal more of a linear progression (which is what you are suggesting) but still continues to lean a little more towards less higher karma guilds, at least in theory and mathematically.  How it all performs in the wild will be very interesting to see! 

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 20, 2017, 10:38:38 PM1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

This would be a good way to help mitigate the "screw it, just not playing for X  months" factor, and would help encourage players to sit it out with existing characters (whom they might come to enjoy). Otherwise lower karma/0 karma roles are available.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 20, 2017, 10:38:38 PM3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

I think this is a good option. Would a proactive roll call from staff for new sorcerers/psionicists on a monthly (or every X months) be considered? Someone else came up with the suggestion and it would cut down on the "can I play one, yet? Can I play one, yet?" factor. It would also stop the "I should have asked 1 day earlier/later" paranoia that some players are sure to develop as well.

A wait list could always work. But is that going to increase or cut down staff's work compared to a monthly role call for a (secret number of) sorcerer/psionicist slots? Also would it increase the chance of people storing other (potentially) fun characters just because they've been waiting 6 months on the wait list and don't want to wait another 6 months? People wouldn't even need to tell you their concept if you didn't want to know, simply that they were interested and then ask for further details if you select them.

If you do decide to stick with the specail app process. How long does it normally take? In days of old you could wait 6 months for a special app to get processed (at least from what I heard. I never asked for this reason). The only time I've asked for them is when the skill bumps/extended subguilds were available via special app and that was because staff was treating them as a priority.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 20, 2017, 10:38:38 PM
We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

Very nice indeed. Kudos for the quick response based on player feedback!

But I do agree with Fathi(no surprise there) regarding a gentler roll out of the karma regen system. I don't think anything would be lost from setting the regen to a ~3 months(or less  ;D ) and seeing how that goes for a year with the caveat that it may be increased based on both player and staff feedback.

Anyway, these are all very promising developments! Thanks!

I'm one of those people that loves my witches (although I don't play them anymore for the time being), and I kind of wish water and stone touched would be 0 karma. For those of us who know what that kind of witch is capable of, there aren't exactly going to be a bunch of random manifestees walking around trying to destroy everything, but it keeps witches on the table for those of us who literally don't want to play anything else.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 20, 2017, 10:38:38 PM
We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

*slowclap.jpeg*

Would something like a karma refund address the problem, that I've had too, where some character combination doesn't really click without feeling overly punitive? Like, if you store your PC within that first 30 days (because it's just not your cup of tea) you get your spent karma refunded.

To address the "I thought I'd like this karma role but turns out I hate it" dilemma:

A 10-day grace period on ALL non-zero roles, including both karma and sponsored roles. Criteria: You can't suicide your character, you have to submit a request for storage. Once that request is approved, as long as the *request* was put in before the 10-day period after the character was first entered into the game, the karma or sponsored roll toggle would revert to what it was before you submitted the app for that role.

Example:

I want to play a ranger krathi-agony (or whatever they are). It costs me 3 karma. I have 3 available. I app for it, and now have an empty karma pool I play my krathi for four days and realize I just don't like her, I don't like where she's going, I still haven't figured out where she fits in the world, and I don't want to be gemmed but there's currently a witch hunt going on and EVERY clan is involved, thus leaving my character completely iso (since at day 4, she hasn't had enough time to meet any other rogues yet). By day 6 I'm absolutely convinced. This character is a total mistake on my part. I give it just two more days "just in case" because I'm Lizzie and I always do that. By the 8th day, I'm finished. I submit a storage request.

Four days later, my request is approved and my karma is reset to 3 points. But Lizzie, it was approved on the 12th day and you said 10 days! Yes, young padawam, but I also specified that the criteria would be based on when I submitted the request, not when it is approved. I submitted it on the 8th day. So it counts, and my karma is reset.

What would ALSO be awesome...

If you have submitted a storage request within that 10-day period, you could have an option to submit a new 0-karma character at the same time. Both requests would be handled by the same staffer, and the switch would be immediate upon approval of the submission. Sometimes people have to wait a few days to store, and that, unfortunately, promotes suiciding characters which is frowned upon by the staff. Allowing a 0-karma character to be approved at the same time storage of a previous character is approved, would reduce instances of that behavior (though obviously not eliminate it). If you wanted to play another karma-required character you'd still have to wait for your existing karma character to be stored, before you could submit another one.

I don't really like anything that puts more manual work on staff.  I'm sure they'd rather be running their clans, playing their PC, and bringing the world to life than adjusting Karma values.

My concerns are largely covered by the new proposal, but I'd like a grace period with each new character so if I die too fast or store I'd get my karma back to try again.

Quote from: Miradus on June 21, 2017, 09:05:32 AM
My concerns are largely covered by the new proposal, but I'd like a grace period with each new character so if I die too fast or store I'd get my karma back to try again.

I certainly home the delay would keep people out of the game a few weeks, dropping our average log in numbers.



Staff,
Is average days/hours played at time of death/storage a metric you can or do track?

Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 21, 2017, 09:15:59 AM
Is average days/hours played at time of death/storage a metric you can or do track?

This data is available but not in what I would consider a easily consumable format or single location.  There is plans to correlate these data sets at some point to get a clear and empirical understanding.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 21, 2017, 10:52:57 AM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 21, 2017, 09:15:59 AM
Is average days/hours played at time of death/storage a metric you can or do track?

This data is available but not in what I would consider a easily consumable format or single location.  There is plans to correlate these data sets at some point to get a clear and empirical understanding.

On the same thought, is there a breakdown of character classes / subclasses that are active (rough definition - logged in once a week) ?  Do you have something easily accessible for the immortal staff in that regard?
In order to maintain a sense of low fantasy within the world, is there a goal that is to be achieved?  Something like - 20% have the ability to cast a spell.   Or 50% have the ability to cast a spell.

I guess that's something you would like to have going forward to shape the PC that exist in the world.

Quote from: mansa on June 21, 2017, 11:39:42 AM
In order to maintain a sense of low fantasy within the world, is there a goal that is to be achieved?  Something like - 20% have the ability to cast a spell.   Or 50% have the ability to cast a spell.

I guess that's something you would like to have going forward to shape the PC that exist in the world.

What? When has it been a thing that staff are trying to enforce low fantasy on the world? It's definitely fantasy. Lots of magick. Lots of silt-shenanigans. Even if you limit the playerbase, the greater part of the world is affected still on the vnpc level full of magick/fantasy stuff. I got the feeling most of these changes had nothing to do with trying to enforce a 'low fantasy' vibe, and trying more to limit there being 50/100 players at any given time playing super powered magickers.

Have I completely misunderstood the flavor of the game for years?

Actually, "low" needs to be added to "fantasy" in the first sentence on the website's homepage.

Yes, it is -low- fantasy.  Magick is hated, feared and reviled by the vast majority of the virtual world.
Staff have always kept loose reigns on how much magick was in game for the most part.
I kind of got spoiled because right around the time that I finally got past the interface and code learning curve was probably the highest magick concentration the game saw after labeling itself an RPI.  I loved it, and many of my favorite memories from then through recent characters involved magickal interactions with other characters or the game world.  I think what we have is a good balance, and I understand that staff will have to perceptually tighten the reigns on magick to maintain balance once they open up magick for pretty much the entire player base. An absolute monster of a karma system is what kept it in place before.  I had to play the game for eight years before I could even special app for a sorc or psion.  After 11 years I am still only 5/8ths "trusted" by staff based on the old system. I think this is a much better and less frustrating solution.

First Paragraph of the Game talks about how magick is/should be treated most of the time...

QuoteArmageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things. Rather, it is about living out a character's sometimes short and always difficult life in the harsh world, Zalanthas. It is a world where sorcerer-kings and their ruthless servants, the Templarate, govern the two main cities, Allanak and Tuluk. Any magick not granted by the Kings is feared and hated, and where the punishment of such a curse might be death. In this harsh realm, life is a constant struggle, and death may occur over a drink of precious water.

I would argue that magick fear and hate has NOTHING to do with it being a low-fantasy environment. It's definitely not a low fantasy environment by even the -mildest- judgment of fantasy settings. You can pretty much cross that off the list.

Low magick though? That's questionable. Templars who run everything have magick. The leaders of the world have magick. A quarter of the city is sectioned off for magick. There's places in the Known that were built upon a foundation of magick. I could go on all day. I've barely tapped the magick sphere, and played mundanes almost exclusively, and I would hardly call Arm 'low magick' even then.

Edit to add:

High fantasy is defined as fantasy set in an alternative, fictional ("secondary") world, rather than "the real", or "primary" world. The secondary world is usually internally consistent, but its rules differ from those of the primary world. By contrast, low fantasy is characterized by being set in the primary, or "real" world, or a rational and familiar fictional world, with the inclusion of magical elements.

You're right from a player perspective.  But to look at it through a commoners eyes. In Tuluk, you can go your entire life without hearing about or knowingly seeing a magick user.  In Allanak, the gemmers who leave the quarter and work for nobles are the -exception- to the rule, and are a severe minority.  Most tribes either kill magickers on sight (including their own) or have very specific magicks they allows based on religion, tradition, and absolute necessity. Any magick user not of their tribe is still killed on site.

The PC population of magickers is way our of proportion to the virtual world. Otherwise, we would have MAYBE one of each at any given time, and that would still be out of proportion.  Before IC clan building became a thing again, I felt for a long time that the only way to make a difference was with magick. That's where all the power was.  Why spend months and risk minions when you can have a Drovian spy for you with no risk to himself at all?  That's change now, and it after the guild/subguild changes and elementalist/sorcerer nerfs, I would risk saying that it is impossible to do anything meaningful through magick alone, at least at the quicker pace that use to exist.  You can probably still achieve magical greatness, but you will now have to spend the same amount of time and effort as someone who is trying to get something accomplished with a warrior, merchant or ranger. I think that is a fantastic thing. *tries really hard not to justify the place of Nilazi PCs in the game world and succeeds*


PS: I am so glad that plot killing PC Lirathans and PC Drovians are gone from the game.  That quite literally changed everything and made the world a lot more interesting place to play.

There is a difference between "Low magick" and "Low fantasy".

Low Magick means that magick is feared, hated, controlled, and thematically is decently rare.

Low Fantasy means you're not playing world-changing Templars and leaders of free states, going up against the gods of the world who threaten to harm mankind. You're playing a shit-eating Mercenary who might one day lead half a dozen other mercenaries against some gith, in one skirmish of a large battle.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 21, 2017, 03:33:16 PM
You're right from a player perspective.  But to look at it through a commoners eyes. In Tuluk, you can go your entire life without hearing about or knowingly seeing a magick user.  In Allanak, the gemmers who leave the quarter and work for nobles are the -exception- to the rule, and are a severe minority.  Most tribes either kill magickers on sight (including their own) or have very specific magicks they allows based on religion, tradition, and absolute necessity. Any magick user not of their tribe is still killed on site.

The PC population of magickers is way our of proportion to the virtual world. Otherwise, we would have MAYBE one of each at any given time, and that would still be out of proportion.  Before IC clan building became a thing again, I felt for a long time that the only way to make a difference was with magick. That's where all the power was.  Why spend months and risk minions when you can have a Drovian spy for you with no risk to himself at all?  That's change now, and it after the guild/subguild changes and elementalist/sorcerer nerfs, I would risk saying that it is impossible to do anything meaningful through magick alone, at least at the quicker pace that use to exist.  You can probably still achieve magical greatness, but you will now have to spend the same amount of time and effort as someone who is trying to get something accomplished with a warrior, merchant or ranger. I think that is a fantastic thing. *tries really hard not to justify the place of Nilazi PCs in the game world and succeeds*

I don't mean to derail the thread. I think what you and I are debating (through friendly terms!) would do that. To re-iterate my point, it sounds like staff are actually allowing more players to play magickal roles, but are further limiting the times between them. This does not make there be less magick in the game world. This makes it so that some players will struggle to play their intended concepts if for whatever reason they don't last on their first one for (at this point in the discussion) four months. While it will allow newer players to try interesting things, it comes with the cost of making it so that they are -not- trying those things again for a very long time. In many cases, refining the current karma system and making it easier to move up AND down through it, would have been a better option in my mind to solve this. The way they did this suggests an intent to lower not the amount of magick in the game, but rather, to lower the amount of people re-rolling magickers or psions, or sorcs back to back. If only 50% of the playerbase in the past could feasibly play a krathi (and you found that to be many many magickers), their goal within the next couple years is to have almost all of them have that option. It's a step in the right, and the wrong direction, in my opinion. I like some of the intentions, I hate the OOC wait times they're suggesting.


That all said, let me break down your post a little for you. Veil of obscurity hopefully withstanding this all.

"But to look at it through a commoners eyes. In Tuluk, you can go your entire life without hearing about or knowingly seeing a magick user." - No, you just see the non-magickal templars able to see all, hear all, know all, feel all, hunting down many magickals in the surrounding lands. Lets also not forget that magick is responsible for the destruction of your home in the past, and you are taught just how ready magick is to ruin it again. You're a northerner. You hate magick. You fear it. You acknowledge it's around.

"In Allanak, the gemmers who leave the quarter and work for nobles are the -exception- to the rule, and are a severe minority." - There are many gemmers who do not work for nobleborn, who leave the quarter. In fact, there's nice echoes in the Gaj fairly often about their presence among the population. They're feared, or avoided, for certain (hated in many cases), but they exist among the regular 'commoner' population. To play a commoner who has gone to the Gaj most of their life, who hasn't seen more than their share of magickers coming through would be silly.

"Most tribes either kill magickers on sight (including their own) or have very specific magicks they allows based on religion, tradition, and absolute necessity." - I know the tribes in game. I've interacted with them. Of the coded ones that are playable now, exactly 1/2 allow magick in one form or another, with a few types allowed for each. That said, I've also known some (members) of those tribes to not try to KoS other magickers not of their preferred kind. I would not say any of these tribes allow their specific brands of magick on 'necessity' and all of them do so under 'religion' or 'tradition'. I'm not going to bring up any of the tribe stuff I've learned about the 'closed' tribes through IC or discuss them just to be safe. I'm also going to avoid adding in any sort of defense for player made-up tiny tribal groups that have been littered among the lore of the game, with various points. I'm also going to avoid talking about those darn gypsies. Cause, whew, my friend.

"The PC population of magickers is way our of proportion to the virtual world. Otherwise, we would have MAYBE one of each at any given time, and that would still be out of proportion." -I'll bring up a couple points for this. First off, we do not all (as PCs) reflect the 'average' person of Zalanthas. Many of us choose to play those, and have done so many times. Perhaps that's all they want to play. However, as a PC, you play a character in a story. Most stories would be rather boring to read if that character only ever did exactly what an average person does. So, we've got essentially 30 players online most of the time. Of that given 30 players online, how many are you thinking are magickers? What's your number? Because there's a quarter of the city dedicated to magickers, not to mention a vast area of the Known to accommodate some other sparse clumps of them. You will -never- reflect the 'total' vnpc population versus the 'total vnpc magickers' ratio in a playerbase, without allowing basically ONLY staff to play magickers. It simply won't happen. Because you're right. They are outnumbered VASTLY. But. I'll state that with the stance that we're not forced to play secondary characters in our own stories. You may choose to, but you do not -have- to. This is a collaborative storytelling process. If you want to take your mundane warrior and go through the ropes to learn sorcery, and you manage it somehow, and staff approve of your method and the roleplay you've created in the process...good on you. If you want to play elf who elfs and never does anything...also, cool on you. The playerbase will never reflect VNPC population perfectly and pushing for it is bad for the creative interest levels of the game. A huge amount of the population can be measured in either slaves, the -extremely- poor/destitute, magickers, etc. Just clump those groups in together. Then look at the Gaj, and see the playerbase. You won't see a good reflection. While you're at it, go ahead and tell 1/2 of the Kuraci players currently that they need to move to Allanak, because the game shouldn't have 1/4th the population be Kurac. Whoops.

"The PC population of magickers is way our of proportion to the virtual world. Otherwise, we would have MAYBE one of each at any given time, and that would still be out of proportion.  Before IC clan building became a thing again, I felt for a long time that the only way to make a difference was with magick. That's where all the power was." - During end of the world plots, perhaps. And while yes, virtually, all the power in the Known is through magicks, that's also why it sat behind a fat karma barrier. IC clan building is possible with or without magicks. It's been seen in multiple incarnations right now in the game ever since its introduction as a system. Also, magickers have had a nerf (in all cases but a few specific combos) and are far less 'magicky' than ever. Practically 1/2 the magick. Which seems to have really screwed up some synergy in my experience with spells (many of which were designed to work together). I won't cry with you over Nilazi. I want to. But I won't. I feel you (wo)man.

In conclusion? Not a low magick setting, in either experience, or if you're simply TRULY aware of the game world you're playing in...ehhh. Even psionics would be considered magic by any standpoint that isn't Armageddon. If you stick your nose really high in any corner of the Known world, you're going to find some magick or psionics played a role somewhere. That's ignoring the more blatant or obvious stuff.

@Riev - Whether you're playing a Gondorian archer who lives his life day in and out shoveling shit or waxing his bow's string, or whether you're playing Gandalf the White, you are still in a High Fantasy environment, my friend.

There was a period (not so long ago so I can't reveal names) just seemed to turn around and bump into rogue gicks left and right. This guy showed me some magic. This other guy tried to nuke me with a spell. This other guy I "interacted the shit out of", I found a bunch of spell components in his backpack after our interaction was done.

I was looking around and thinking EVERYONE was a freakin' rogue gick. Did I not know ANYONE who wasn't secretly a magicker?

So it's not really that rare NOW. If you want to make it more rare then we could do something like that IC. Some of these anti-magic organizations could pay "Witch Hunters" to go out and bring them the heads of known rogues or to sniff out unknown rogues.

We don't need sweeping changes for things we could handle ourselves thematically.

Quote from: Miradus on June 21, 2017, 04:24:06 PM

There was a period (not so long ago so I can't reveal names) just seemed to turn around and bump into rogue gicks left and right. This guy showed me some magic. This other guy tried to nuke me with a spell. This other guy I "interacted the shit out of", I found a bunch of spell components in his backpack after our interaction was done.

I was looking around and thinking EVERYONE was a freakin' rogue gick. Did I not know ANYONE who wasn't secretly a magicker?

So it's not really that rare NOW. If you want to make it more rare then we could do something like that IC. Some of these anti-magic organizations could pay "Witch Hunters" to go out and bring them the heads of known rogues or to sniff out unknown rogues.

We don't need sweeping changes for things we could handle ourselves thematically.

I really want to know what the heck was going on here. As someone who has hunted the crap out of magickers for one purpose or the next in the past, this sounds like a crazy coincidence more than a constant thing EVERYONE is dealing with. I went through an 80+ day character in the thick of some of the sickest stuff in the game (in my opinion) and only ever found all of 2 rogue magickers. Of the gemmed ones that I met that lasted longer than a month, only perhaps three.

Quote from: Decadent Decisions on June 21, 2017, 04:10:53 PM
@Riev - Whether you're playing a Gondorian archer who lives his life day in and out shoveling shit or waxing his bow's string, or whether you're playing Gandalf the White, you are still in a High Fantasy environment, my friend.

GURPS Fantasy defines the genre as "closer to realistic fiction than to myth. Low Fantasy stories focus on people's daily lives and practical goals...


So, not EXACTLY, though I get your meaning. In a roleplaying environment, a Low Fantasy environment is focused on the trivial, the mundane, the "how do we live in a world like this". Whereas High Fantasy has world-changing events, non-rational magick that does really odd and spectacular things. In your example, we ARE all playing the single Gondorian Archer, who doesn't have a damn clue what this hubbub about a Ring is, and will probably die in the next battle. We aren't Gandalf, or Frodo, or heroes of any stripe. Heroes are for High Fantasy.

Related to the thread, it feels like the expectation is still to "be cautious and live longer" if you PREFER PLAYING KARMA CLASSES, but like Lizzie, I think its best to wait until the Guild Changes come out. Maybe playing a "Heavy Combat Focused City Character" is better than playing an assassin,.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 20, 2017, 10:38:38 PM
We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

Nice, Nathvaan.

These seem like good changes.

My last question remains - are those players with 5 karma actually losing options? (Whira Travel/Krath Agony)

Please keep on topic.  This isn't a thread about how low or not low fantasy the game is it's specifically about the proposed karma changes. If you want to discuss that, please start another thread! Thanks!

Quote from: Bogre on June 21, 2017, 04:49:09 PM
My last question remains - are those players with 5 karma actually losing options? (Whira Travel/Krath Agony)

The nature of the beast is that when you change the scale there will be some people who are at the edge of the new scale with regard to the conversion that may lose a few options and we minimized that as much as possible.  The vast majority of people will gain options though due to the compressed scale.  We did map it all out when discussing what race and subguilds landed in which karma category.

On the subject of the original posts, is there any consideration of further dropping this time? Or just adding a couple or single extra point of karma to basically allow lesser wait times between the 'lowest' portions of subguilds, like mundane extended ones, with set rates higher?

I still think waiting more than two or so months even to play your 3 karma role is ridiculous, and we'll see a decline in long-established great RPers with this change. Waiting two and a half months to play a protector again, even, is extreme. The karma was shrunk down too much and it's part of my gripe. That's coming from a person nowhere near full karma.

Five karma with a much higher regen rate seems optimum to me, especially if done like my original post suggested with 2 week waits between each point of karma gained back steadily. No refunds except on special applications.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 20, 2017, 10:38:38 PM
We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

Meant to post this last night, but I am very much in favor of these changes. Having read through most of the replies to this thread, I know this certainly addresses my concerns, and I think the majority of the concerns raised so far. Thanks for talking this through with us, Nathvaan.

Rr... posted on the wrong thread. Ignore it!

I'm pretty impartial about most of this, but these being in the 2 karma level really threw me.

Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

My favorite character I ever made was a burglar/aggressor. It was the only character I played into a leadership position, by far my most memorable, and imo the coolest.

With these changes I would never have made this character, I don't have the karma and I would have never spent a spec app on the character (I was just making a throw away character when I made this one).

In general this just feels extremely punitive to players who go through a lot of characters or who have short average lifespans. What before would have been a 1 day setback is now potentially a 6 month setback if a 3 karma option dies.

Is the goal to have every character live 6 months, or to have many more characters not use extended sub-guilds?

Edit: Have staff considered basing karma regain on average PC life? Per account or even game wide?

.

Here is some of the data we are looking at, compiled from the last three months of new characters.

Karma	OLD	NEW
0	70%	70%
1	25%	14%
2	4%	15%
3	1%	1%

The OLD column represent the current karma option levels, translated into the new karma range using criteria points in the announcement.  The NEW column is those same characters, using the new karma scale options.

As a note, just 15 accounts are responsible for creating 40.9% of characters utilizing karma in this time frame.  In terms of total population, that is 12.3% of the total population of characters, if you want to compare to the chart above.

Really?

That's ... astounding.

You have to understand that staff has revealed that few people actually have any large amount of Karma under the current system.

.

I like the more recent times, but still feel 30 days is a long time to wait. I just don't know why level 1 karma roles should be so rare that you have to wait a full 30 days before rerolling one, potentially. The level 2 karma roles are a whole different scale, obviously -- half-giants and so on -- that I definitely concur with around a month or so there. It's weird -- it seems like such arbitrary time limits don't make sense. I wish there was some way for that to be more flexible. Maybe something that can allow us to make karma regenerate faster if we wanted it for some reason like wanting to join family role that requires karma, for example.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 21, 2017, 09:04:50 PM
Here is some of the data we are looking at, compiled from the last three months of new characters.

Karma	OLD	NEW
0	70%	70%
1	25%	14%
2	4%	15%
3	1%	1%

The OLD column represent the current karma option levels, translated into the new karma range using criteria points in the announcement.  The NEW column is those same characters, using the new karma scale options.

As a note, just 15 accounts are responsible for creating 40.9% of characters utilizing karma in this time frame.  In terms of total population, that is 12.3% of the total population of characters, if you want to compare to the chart above.

One thing to take away from this is that 70% of characters being rolled are 0 karma characters and staff apparently still think that number is too small? That's intriguing to me. Have you guys discussed what an ideal percentage of 0-karma characters is, if 70% isn't enough?

Bearing in mind of course that of the other 30% not all are mages--this 30% includes extended subguilds, desert elves, etc. I'm really curious what staff think an "ideal" spread would look like.

Quote from: Fathi on June 22, 2017, 05:17:21 AMOne thing to take away from this is that 70% of characters being rolled are 0 karma characters and staff apparently still think that number is too small?

Saying that 70% of characters made in the last three months isn't the same thing as saying that 70% of living and active characters at the moment are level 0 characters.

New players go through a character every couple of days. People with karma will typically live longer than new players, and as such a good portion of karma characters will quite possibly have been made more than 3 months ago.

It's an interesting statistic, but it isn't telling us how many characters in the game at any given moment have karma vs don't have karma.

Don't forget that some of those 2/3 karma roles are D-elves and HGs, not gicks and extended subs.
These are not "unbalanced" roles but roles that require a certain level of game knowledge, experience, and trust to play the races properly.

...I really see no reason why 30 days is too long, considering that it wasn't until very recently that it was anything other than this way (Extended subguilds required an app, and you couldn't special app anything within 30 days of each other).

Again, treating extended subs or magicker subguilds as an absolute necessity to having a character be 'worth it' is the wrong way to be looking at it.  Mostly because it's entirely untrue.  This was one of the concerns voiced at the announcement of extended subguilds, was that they were so much better than the 'normal' subguilds and it they would make those worthless.  They talked about limiting them.  Because this mentality isn't a healthy one, where that's your new normal.

In the case of two karma options on there, that means you can run 2 1 karma characters every 2 and a half months or one 2 karma...which really isn't bad.  Not at all.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 22, 2017, 10:47:36 AM
...I really see no reason why 30 days is too long, considering that it wasn't until very recently that it was anything other than this way (Extended subguilds required an app, and you couldn't special app anything within 30 days of each other).

Again, treating extended subs or magicker subguilds as an absolute necessity to having a character be 'worth it' is the wrong way to be looking at it.  Mostly because it's entirely untrue.  This was one of the concerns voiced at the announcement of extended subguilds, was that they were so much better than the 'normal' subguilds and it they would make those worthless.  They talked about limiting them.  Because this mentality isn't a healthy one, where that's your new normal.

In the case of two karma options on there, that means you can run 2 1 karma characters every 2 and a half months or one 2 karma...which really isn't bad.  Not at all.

I -think- you're not understanding the regen process (either that or many of the rest of us are not understanding it). Using examples:

Your player account has only 1 point of karma.
You use that point. You have to wait 30 days to get it back. That's great, fine.

Your player account has two points of karma.
You use them to create a 2-karma character.

You now have to wait 60 days before you can create another 2-karma character, plus 30 days before you can play a 1-point character.

Your account has 3 points of karma.
You use them to create a 3-karma character.

You have to wait 30 days to play a 1-point character, plus 60 days to play a 2-point character, plus 90 days to play a three point character, once that 3-point character has been approved and you've logged into the game.

So you're not waiting 30 days to play a 3-karma character. You're only waiting that long to play a 1-karma character. It's 2 months for a 2-karma character and 3 months for a 3-karma character. AND....if you decide after you've earned back your second point of karma (after 60 days) that you want to play a 1-karma character again, you have to wait ANOTHER 30 days before you can play that 3-karma character - thus making it now 120 days total.

Throwing my vote in for 30 days being more than enough for karma regen. Generous even. I get that sometimes, you choose a role and it doesn't work out the way you thought. But really, I think that's a discussion you can have with staff. Roll it out and see how it works out. I don't see that many people burning through characters at a rate where it would be that much of an issue.

That data is presented in terms of new characters because that is the point at which karma gates things.  Beyond that it depends on the individual play of the characters as to what the overall population dynamic will be, and thus a much fuzzier thing to analyze.

Some more data for you.

There were a total of 764 characters started over the 3 month period, on 388 accounts.  That is just shy of 2 characters per account.  Of those, 282 accounts started only one character.

There were 13 accounts that started 10 or more characters accounting for 153 of them, or 20% of the total.  Of those, nine accounts do not have any karma.  For characters created on the remaining 4 accounts that do have karma, only two of those characters did not utilize karma.  Those two characters were on the same account.

I'm okay with a flat 30 per point. Even more so if I can get a refund if I don't make it to 1 day played.

I'm going to throw this out there ... I'm not looking for sympathy or nothing. (My father always said if you're looking for sympathy then it's between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.)

But I'm not fully sighted. I've got some vision issues and sometimes I don't see the carru walk in the room when I'm at my size 24 font, or the dujat, or the kryl. At about 2 days played, hey, it's no issue because you can survive long enough to notice something happening. And the "1 hour free death" just never matters. It takes me that long to look at my stats, grab some equipment, and get out the gate into the wilderness.

I understood that.  That was what I was outlining, though mine was specifically geared towards people with 3 karma playing 1 and 2 karma point roles.

Essentially, at maximum, you're at one full-karma character every 4 months.  For those of us who tend to just play extended subguilds on mundanes, you're looking at a maximum of two and a half months between them.  That's fine and dandy with me, and if that means that I quickly die, I'll have to use normal subguilds, which is also fine by me.

But that's what I mean, is that the holdup here appears to be the lack of ability to quickly go through one after the other after the other, which is the expressed purpose of what they're doing, I believe, and something that will likely make characters more varied rather than less in game.

Edit:  Totally in acknowledgement that this is okay with me personally and may not be for others.  But I do think we should give this present form a shot, agreeing that the 'But I can't play one after the other after the other' isn't valid, since that's kind of the point.  HOWEVER, should also be tried out with an acknowledgement from staff side that it will likely be imperfect and that criticism of it should be expected rather than shut down, as has happened with other 'trial runs' we've done in the past in most renditions of staff.

It seems like staff have good numbers for character creation, can we use those to calculate average player lifetime? I'm honestly just curious at this point, because the numbers I've been seeing were way outside of what I expected.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 22, 2017, 01:34:13 PM
But that's what I mean, is that the holdup here appears to be the lack of ability to quickly go through one after the other after the other, which is the expressed purpose of what they're doing, I believe, and something that will likely make characters more varied rather than less in game.

Shouldn't we wait to worry about variety until the huge class rework comes through? Also I see no way that restricting options over time would result in more varied characters, am I missing something?

QuoteShouldn't we wait to worry about variety until the huge class rework comes through? Also I see no way that restricting options over time would result in more varied characters, am I missing something?

Er.  In my head, it means that if someone uses their karma and dies before it regenerates, they may have to make a character that isn't exactly what they want at the time and watch it grow.  Again, this is kind of more along the lines of extended subguilds and karma subguilds than main classes.

If anyone does the 'I can't play an aggressor/hardcore mage for another month, so I just won't play', it will be disappointing to me. :/

To clarify and in semi-response to Armaddict.

We are fully in agreement that this system is going to be imperfect.  We expect that we will need to adjust, tweak and refactor the code, the structure and some of our goals surrounding this system as we get more information.  Part of that is this discussion thread, we've made some changes based on some of the points raised here already.  We do have some goals in mind, we have some thoughts on how this will work based on data we've seen. We will only be able to tell if this is achieving those goals once we've launched it. 

Quote from: Armaddict on June 22, 2017, 01:42:07 PM
If anyone does the 'I can't play an aggressor/hardcore mage for another month, so I just won't play', it will be disappointing to me. :/

If I can't play what I want to play that I have karma for, because of some sort of arbitrary timer, I won't play. Get off your high horse.

Just to refresh my memory, are the karma costs of races and subguilds cumulative? i.e. is a "Desert Elf Outdoorsman" 3 karma (1+2) or 2 karma?

...it's not a high horse, it's an acknowledgement that there's a lot of different things to play that are all enjoyable.

Maybe for you. Other people have narrower interests. (fortunately mine all tend to run in the 0-1 karma scheme) If it's a question of "letting people play what they want" and "people not playing" I'd rather the former be chosen.

I have two questions. I've skimmed this thread (particularly the staff posts) for answers, but haven't seen them addressed. I do apologize if I have simply missed it.

1. What is the purpose of the two different karma scales?

In the staff post you talk about moving to a 0-1-2-3 karma scale based mostly on time allowing only one karma review a year. However, in the same staff post you also discuss that you will still be able to accrue points in karma categories (roleplay, leadership, longevity).

How will these two systems work hand in hand, and will points in the karma categories be given outside of karma review time? Will category points only be given at karma review time and you need to have enough in order to move up a karma level as well as having the necessary longevity to have achieved your next desired point?

2. What will constitute a Special Application?

If I want permission for a special role (not a rolecall), but not guild/subguild I don't have karma access to, does that use my one spec app a year? Such as... what if I want to play a literate commoner. Or an unusual type of crafter and want to request support for non-standard mastercrafts (this one is on my list of things I'd like to do in the future, so I'm not going to be more specific). Do family roles count as spec apps?

There's a decent chance that I haven't paid close attention to spec app changes, but limiting it to one spec app a year seems challenging if it means everything beyond just a single-role karma boost.

Aside from those questions I like the new system. I like it better with the staff-proposed changes to karma regeneration. I do worry that the minimum timeframe of a year to earn karma 2, and then karma 3, is on the longer side. But it's probably not that big of an issue in practice and I can understand why you would want to block some roles with amount of time spent as an active player.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2017, 01:55:45 PM
Just to refresh my memory, are the karma costs of races and subguilds cumulative? i.e. is a "Desert Elf Outdoorsman" 3 karma (1+2) or 2 karma?

It is not cumulative.

I think allowing one special app every 6 months would be reasonable. You could choose to use it to bypass your karma regen once, but then you'd be giving up the opportunity to use it for something rarer. This measure wouldn't make psionicists or sorcerers more common, because they'd still be capped. It'd be nice because if you feel the desire to play a karma-required family role or something like that but you recently spent karma, you could blow your spec app on it without feeling like you absolutely have to save it because it's the only one you'll get all year.

This solution would probably make people who think the karma regen is too slow feel a little better, but I don't think it'd upset the balance too much.

Quote from: sleepyhead on June 22, 2017, 02:33:25 PM
I think allowing one special app every 6 months would be reasonable. You could choose to use it to bypass your karma regen once, but then you'd be giving up the opportunity to use it for something rarer. This measure wouldn't make psionicists or sorcerers more common, because they'd still be capped. It'd be nice because if you feel the desire to play a karma-required family role or something like that but you recently spent karma, you could blow your spec app on it without feeling like you absolutely have to save it because it's the only one you'll get all year.

This solution would probably make people who think the karma regen is too slow feel a little better, but I don't think it'd upset the balance too much.

It would also make the "one special app per year" rule less punitive to people who are rarely-if-ever going to spec-app a sorcerer or psion. As I currently understand the proposed rules, we would only be able to ask for an extra language, or a skill swap, once per year now.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 22, 2017, 02:21:23 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2017, 01:55:45 PM
Just to refresh my memory, are the karma costs of races and subguilds cumulative? i.e. is a "Desert Elf Outdoorsman" 3 karma (1+2) or 2 karma?

It is not cumulative.

Thank you.

I still haven't heard anything staff-wise about a psion/sorc interest list. I think having to spec app, and then wait a little while if denied due to having too many in game only to app again later, and then having to app again later, would be highly demoralizing.

I mean, I've had 8 karma for how long now and never played either, so maybe that's a minor concern. But I feel that having a list would be more fair than having to be in the right place, at the right time.

Quote from: Zenith on June 22, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
1. What is the purpose of the two different karma scales?

In the staff post you talk about moving to a 0-1-2-3 karma scale based mostly on time allowing only one karma review a year. However, in the same staff post you also discuss that you will still be able to accrue points in karma categories (roleplay, leadership, longevity).

I am not sure what you mean by the two different scales.  There is a current scale (0-8) and a proposed scale (0-3).  I think we have defined the purpose fairly plainly.  Basically to make higher karma roles take less time to reach, making max karma more of the norm and less of an exception while still making sure high karma roles are rarer than lower karma options.

As for the categories, think of those as categories used to as guidelines on what to do to earn karma.  There are many options for gaining karma but you will only be able to gain one point for each category to a max of three.

Quote from: Zenith on June 22, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
How will these two systems work hand in hand, and will points in the karma categories be given outside of karma review time? Will category points only be given at karma review time and you need to have enough in order to move up a karma level as well as having the necessary longevity to have achieved your next desired point?

I also think this was explained pretty clearly in the original post.  There is a possibility for karma being granted outside of the normal schedule for outstanding roleplay but that is no different than it is now.  We can and do reward karma to those doing a good job.

Quote from: Zenith on June 22, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
2. What will constitute a Special Application?

If I want permission for a special role (not a rolecall), but not guild/subguild I don't have karma access to, does that use my one spec app a year? Such as... what if I want to play a literate commoner. Or an unusual type of crafter and want to request support for non-standard mastercrafts (this one is on my list of things I'd like to do in the future, so I'm not going to be more specific). Do family roles count as spec apps?

What a special application entails hasn't changed at all with this proposed change.  Please feel free to look at the help file to refresh yourself.  Also, neither has anything to do with the family roles which also has a very inclusive help file.  Anything that is a special app will be once per calendar year.

Not sure how helpful that answer was, but hopefully it addressed some of your questions!

Could we get some more elaboration on why Staff feel the need to change the special application limit for "three special applications per year, at most one per month" to just one per year? It seems pretty drastic and punitive towards those players who don't use their special applications for high karma "overpowered" roles.

Current special applications help file, for reference

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications

Quote
Players may submit up to three special applications per year, at most one per month. A special application allows players to request to play a character that is beyond what the normal application process would provide for. This might be any number of things. For karma guilds, this means that a player may apply for a role up to three karma points higher than their current karma level.

We are also currently testing out extended subguilds and skill increases using the same process for special applications. See the helpfiles on both of these subjects for details.

All Special Applications should be submitted through the Request Tool.

Quote from: valeria on June 22, 2017, 02:52:51 PM
I still haven't heard anything staff-wise about a psion/sorc interest list. I think having to spec app, and then wait a little while if denied due to having too many in game only to app again later, and then having to app again later, would be highly demoralizing.

It's being discussed.  There isn't really a good solution really.  On one hand you could be put on the list and would know that when one opens up you would be able to apply.  On the other hand as that list grows and characters in the role live long lives then the list could literally get to RL years in waiting.

We are still discussing the specifics but I don't think that that kind of policy only item should hold up this over-all project to be sure.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 22, 2017, 03:04:22 PM

Quote from: valeria on June 22, 2017, 02:52:51 PM
I still haven't heard anything staff-wise about a psion/sorc interest list. I think having to spec app, and then wait a little while if denied due to having too many in game only to app again later, and then having to app again later, would be highly demoralizing.

It's being discussed.  There isn't really a good solution really.  On one hand you could be put on the list and would know that when one opens up you would be able to apply.  On the other hand as that list grows and characters in the role live long lives then the list could literally get to RL years in waiting.

We are still discussing the specifics but I don't think that that kind of policy only item should hold up this over-all project to be sure.

Agreed on that last part for sure. I just know that I'd rather wait for two years than apply consistently and be rejected for two years. Rejection fatigue is a real thing that seriously sucks.

Maybe role calls should go out for them like any other limited, high-power role.

The problem with rolecalls is that it paints a target on every new PC. Unlike Templars and Agents, Sorcs and Psions don't have a support structure to protect themselves in the early stage. If a rolecall is held for a sorcerer, guild sniffing will intensify because people know there's a weak one out there.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2017, 03:17:39 PM
The problem with rolecalls is that it paints a target on every new PC. Unlike Templars and Agents, Sorcs and Psions don't have a support structure to protect themselves in the early stage. If a rolecall is held for a sorcerer, guild sniffing will intensify because people know there's a weak one out there.

Or that one/some just died. And since there are only X# allowed, that's some pretty serious information to people working with/against sorcerers in game.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2017, 02:44:50 PM

Quote from: sleepyhead on June 22, 2017, 02:33:25 PM
I think allowing one special app every 6 months would be reasonable. You could choose to use it to bypass your karma regen once, but then you'd be giving up the opportunity to use it for something rarer. This measure wouldn't make psionicists or sorcerers more common, because they'd still be capped. It'd be nice because if you feel the desire to play a karma-required family role or something like that but you recently spent karma, you could blow your spec app on it without feeling like you absolutely have to save it because it's the only one you'll get all year.

This solution would probably make people who think the karma regen is too slow feel a little better, but I don't think it'd upset the balance too much.

It would also make the "one special app per year" rule less punitive to people who are rarely-if-ever going to spec-app a sorcerer or psion. As I currently understand the proposed rules, we would only be able to ask for an extra language, or a skill swap, once per year now.

Yes, that too. Not every spec app is a Big Freaking Deal but if you make them once per year I think that's all people will dare to use them for.

I'm ambivalent about this change, really.  I tend toward long-lived combat-oriented 0-karma PCs. 

I'll add this - I've played in MUDs where you spent the equivalent of karma and it made me cautious to play PCs that would expend my points.  I was careful of them and would not spend them except for something special coming along, because I didn't want to miss out on something special, like a rolecall, if I didn't have the points.  This in no way affected my fun because (paragraph 1).

I'll also add this.  The world sure seems to be overpopulated with mages and mindworms lately.  So maybe this change will fix that.

One thing I haven't seen addressed is whether or not the current policy that you don't have to play your approved special app right away will be changed in regards to sorcs/psions. It's one thing to be denied your sorc or psion because too many people are playing them right now, but it's another thing to be denied one because someone has one of those roles waiting for them whenever their current role dies or they get bored of it, and who knows when that'll be.

On the other hand, it also doesn't seem fair if you tell people that while they were playing their current role, someone else snatched up the sorc/psion they were already approved for. So will the current spec app policy change, or will there be an exception for psions/sorcs, or something else?

Staff doesn't throw up other role calls immediately when current sponsored roles die or store. There is always some time lag, enough that anyone already interacting with a KNOWN psion/sorc would probably already know they're dead or inactive. And with 30 to 60 new characters approved a week, that's a lot of people to attempt to guild sniff across a lot of population areas.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it has so much weight that it could disqualify role calls as an alternative.

Honestly, I'd rather not even know things like that at all (how many sorcs/psions are coming and going).
That's a good deal different than knowing there is a new Kadian about to be on the block.

Hey everyone.  I've seen it pop up a few times that staff is trying to "reduce the number of mages," or something to that effect.

The proposed system does not seek to reduce the number of people playing karma-restricted roles (or more narrowly, mages).  In fact, via the new system, we expect to expand access to these roles.  More people will be able to play them.  One of the many goals of regenerating karma points is to keep a theoretical high-karma-character-population-explosion (or HKCPE, if you will) in check.

In short, this is not an attempt to reduce the number of mages in the world.

As previously stated, this won't roll out perfect.  There will need to be tweaking.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 22, 2017, 03:34:34 PM
Honestly, I'd rather not even know things like that at all (how many sorcs/psions are coming and going).
That's a good deal different than knowing there is a new Kadian about to be on the block.

I'd rather not know either, which is why the interest list option would be my personal first choice.  ;) But if it was between that and "just keep applying and getting rejected, maybe for years," I'd rather see a role call than my least favorite option.

Ok, looking through the list of 2 karma extended subguilds:

Master crafter - sorry, I'm not going to wait 90 days or more for basketweaving.
Minstrel - This is probably worth the wait, but pretty niche. I'd have to have a good concept for it.
Armorsmith and Weaponsmith - I probably will not think it's worth it after the change. I craft a lot, I don't mastercraft a lot.
Outdoorsman, protector, slipknife - worth the wait.
All of the combat subguilds, probably not worth the wait unless I really have a concept. Why would I pick up a mediocre combat skill when I could just be a warrior?

And there's several no karma combos which have no equal. Archer? You can craft some nice bows and start out with fletchery on a ranger. That's way cool and costs you nothing.

.

Just throwing this out there, but I think it would be cool if we moved the scale up so that everyone starts at one karma instead of zero. At 1 karma no magickers would be available, but at least a few extended subguilds would be. That way newbies wouldn't feel like they're being forced to play sub-par mundanes just because they're new, but you'd still have a nice mix between regular subguilds and extended ones, since the karma would still be spent and have to regenerate.

I don't know, it's probably dumb, but it's just a thought.

Quote from: Molten Heart on June 22, 2017, 05:50:58 PM
Personally, I'm more likely to take a break from playing to wait for my karma to regenerate than making a character I don't want.

I felt that way too until I started actually looking at the no karma options with a new eye. There's several of them that would still be pretty fun for me.

Ranger/thief
Warrior/bounty hunter
Warrior/thief.
Assassin/hunter
Ranger or warrior/outlaw.

Some decent options there. Right now I'm really just rolling through like the same 4 extended subguild options without much variance.

I'm coming around on this change, though I still think a flat 30 days and a refund would be nice.

When I first started, I had huge karma envy. Mostly because the rest of you talked up all your gick stuff and high karma options so much on the forum I thought all the fun had to be THERE.

But then eventually I got some karma and decided I didn't really like gicks and my favorite race (dwarves) are no karma at all.

So my advice to a low or no karma newbie is that there are some options available to you for big fun right out of the gate.

I think we should maybe put together some guides for those no-karma combos which can rock so hard. That's the obstacle in my mind if I think back to when I didn't know the game. You automatically think, "More karma cost = better" when it doesn't necessarily equate to that.

Seriously, are there any other Action Jacksons like me who would trade that warrior/nomad for mastercraft basketweaving? :)

Bendune, baby. Bendune. The speech pattern so cool it ought to cost karma.

Quote from: Molten Heart on June 22, 2017, 05:50:58 PM
Personally, I'm more likely to take a break from playing to wait for my karma to regenerate to play something I want to play, rather than make an interim character.

Same, I already have a hard time finding time for Armageddon, and I'm not going to spend it on a character that will just be stored when I can play what I actually want.

So, it doesn't feel like it was something mentioned more than once or twice but has some sort of karma point refund been considered for stored characters? Half of the karma required; rounded up, for a stored character.

1 Karma = Refund (0.5)1 Karma
2 Karma = Refund (1)1 Karma
3 Karma = Refund (1.5)2 Karma

That way, if someone starts to play a role but realizes it's not something they can feel motivated to play - They can still reacquire some of their Karma to invest into another role.

I don't have any concerns, I think is good direction for the game.

I even feel the regen system is too lenient at the moment, and as time passes, and people get more comfortable it might need to increase, but that a conversation for the future perhaps.

This has all made me excited for the guild options and changes and additions. Thanks for all the hard work! :)

Quote from: Miradus on June 22, 2017, 05:49:00 PM
Ok, looking through the list of 2 karma extended subguilds:

Master crafter - sorry, I'm not going to wait 90 days or more for basketweaving.
Minstrel - This is probably worth the wait, but pretty niche. I'd have to have a good concept for it.
Armorsmith and Weaponsmith - I probably will not think it's worth it after the change. I craft a lot, I don't mastercraft a lot.
Outdoorsman, protector, slipknife - worth the wait.
All of the combat subguilds, probably not worth the wait unless I really have a concept. Why would I pick up a mediocre combat skill when I could just be a warrior?

And there's several no karma combos which have no equal. Archer? You can craft some nice bows and start out with fletchery on a ranger. That's way cool and costs you nothing.

Just as a note. In the new Karma scale. The 2 Karma extended Subguilds (As currently announced) are:
Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

The other ones listed (All the ones with Master level skills allowing Custom Crafting) are all at 1 Karma level.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 22, 2017, 01:18:37 PMThat data is presented in terms of new characters because that is the point at which karma gates things.

My post wasn't intended to say your statistics don't have value, just to make sure we were correctly applying what those statistics mean in the game world (as much as we can as players who don't have a staff view on things).

Quote from: Brokkr on June 22, 2017, 01:18:37 PMBeyond that it depends on the individual play of the characters as to what the overall population dynamic will be, and thus a much fuzzier thing to analyze.

Yup. Ultimately I expect it becomes more of a gut feel if you want to look at what the overall population currently is. And that gut will alter depending on where you play, who you associate with and when you play (as in, what time of day). Plus any unmanifested/really, really secretive magickers won't FEEL like there's a lot of them around, unless we all go paranoid and then it could be one or two secret magickers getting revealed makes it feel like EVERYONE is playing a secret magicker.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 22, 2017, 01:18:37 PMThere were a total of 764 characters started over the 3 month period, on 388 accounts.  That is just shy of 2 characters per account.  Of those, 282 accounts started only one character.

I feel like I'm skewing this curve here ;)

Quote from: Brokkr on June 22, 2017, 01:18:37 PMThere were 13 accounts that started 10 or more characters accounting for 153 of them, or 20% of the total.

Although I think I just fall under this threshold. Hooray!

Quote from: Armaddict on June 22, 2017, 01:34:13 PMBut I do think we should give this present form a shot

I'm all for it. I'm just pointing out (and this will be my last post that does so), that this:

Quote from: Armaddict on June 22, 2017, 01:34:13 PM'But I can't play one after the other after the other' isn't valid, since that's kind of the point.

Is not achieved by this change for any high karma people who can reliably hit the 4 RL month hurdle on their characters. if this was a stated goal, then staff should consider changing the regen rate to begin when your current karma 1+ character dies.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 22, 2017, 01:34:13 PMand if that means that I quickly die, I'll have to use normal subguilds, which is also fine by me.

How many characters do you estimate you would "have" to make with zero karma options following the current regen rates?

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 22, 2017, 02:21:23 PMIt is not cumulative.

That's good to know. Earlier iterations of this idea did have them be cumulative.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 22, 2017, 03:04:22 PMWe are still discussing the specifics but I don't think that that kind of policy only item should hold up this over-all project to be sure.

Have you considered a monthly role call as was suggested earlier by someone else (and possibly repeated by me)? You could have at the start of every X months (where X is determined by staff) a week long/day long role call for sorcerers and psionicists, and karma 3 players could decide at that time whether or not they apply. You could use the standard role call criteria for determining who gets the role, or simply go with a first in best dressed policy. It also gives staff that leeway to say "sure, we might be at maximum sorcerers in the game, but soandso hasn't played for 3 months so let's let an extra one in this time."

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2017, 03:01:13 PM
Could we get some more elaboration on why Staff feel the need to change the special application limit for "three special applications per year, at most one per month" to just one per year? It seems pretty drastic and punitive towards those players who don't use their special applications for high karma "overpowered" roles.

Current special applications help file, for reference

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications

Quote
Players may submit up to three special applications per year, at most one per month. A special application allows players to request to play a character that is beyond what the normal application process would provide for. This might be any number of things. For karma guilds, this means that a player may apply for a role up to three karma points higher than their current karma level.

We are also currently testing out extended subguilds and skill increases using the same process for special applications. See the helpfiles on both of these subjects for details.

All Special Applications should be submitted through the Request Tool.

Emphasizing this. Still only got one hand so going to continue quoting good points.

Quote from: Tleilax on June 23, 2017, 01:12:09 AM

Just as a note. In the new Karma scale. The 2 Karma extended Subguilds (As currently announced) are:
Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

The other ones listed (All the ones with Master level skills allowing Custom Crafting) are all at 1 Karma level.

A hell of a note! Good deal.

Quote from: Miradus on June 23, 2017, 08:59:59 AM

Quote from: Tleilax on June 23, 2017, 01:12:09 AM

Just as a note. In the new Karma scale. The 2 Karma extended Subguilds (As currently announced) are:
Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

The other ones listed (All the ones with Master level skills allowing Custom Crafting) are all at 1 Karma level.

A hell of a note! Good deal.

Not really.

At the risk of getting them bumped up in cost, why are Slipknife and Rogue at one karma while the listed above are at two?

Personally I don't think any of these should be two karma. If you're worried about extended-subguild desert elves and half-giants running wild, maybe you should make Subguild karma cost cumulative if your RACE is also karma-locked.

Edit: Although cumulative costs are still a shitty idea and I wouldn't want to see them introduced.

Quote from: Tleilax on June 23, 2017, 01:12:09 AM
Just as a note. In the new Karma scale. The 2 Karma extended Subguilds (As currently announced) are:
Berserker, Outdoorsman, Protector, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor
The other ones listed (All the ones with Master level skills allowing Custom Crafting) are all at 1 Karma level.

Why are these being separated out to the two karma level?

They basically give you a second guild of ranger light or warrior light on top of your main guild choice.

I don't mind the regen times, the review structure, and the shifted scale. Also, the timelines for karma reviews are pretty reasonable.

Thumbs up from me.

What if you could have a 1 level karma character every other character, a 2 level karma once every three characters, a 3 level karma once every four, provided you had the karma originally?

I mean, adding this on top of the current system, not as a replacement. That way, you can play the witch who manifests loudly and violently in the Gaj and is cut down by soldiers, without the other players going "Oh, what a shame, a wasted character."

I like the idea because it allows for those violently-lived short lifespan rinthi elf krathis, among other things. Nonmundanes who go raiding, for example.

Quote from: Cind on June 25, 2017, 02:22:07 AMWhat if you could have a 1 level karma character every other character, a 2 level karma once every three characters, a 3 level karma once every four, provided you had the karma originally?

This would encourage people to suicide characters. And as someone whose characters live very short and brutal lives, it'd be pretty difficult for staff to work out whose deliberately suiciding vs just playing recklessly.

Quote from: Cind on June 25, 2017, 02:22:07 AMThat way, you can play the witch who manifests loudly and violently in the Gaj and is cut down by soldiers, without the other players going "Oh, what a shame, a wasted character."

I like the idea because it allows for those violently-lived short lifespan rinthi elf krathis, among other things. Nonmundanes who go raiding, for example.

There is nothing about your suggestion that would force players to not have these characters live long and prosperous lives.

So far I'm liking the Karma changes. Could use some tweaks here and there but it is overall is starting to look like a usable system.

The only thing to add I can think of at the top of my head is to reduce the time in between special applications. Like come on, a whole year? That's absurd. I'd recommend lowering one down to maybe 6 months instead, tops. Other than that, looking pretty good.

I'd give a more constructive post but only got one usable hand at the moment so this'll have to do.

Regarding the Sorc/Psi roles.

If a player has to take time off, or RL things is making him rare. Perhaps perpetually, perhaps over some particular timespan. Will that sorc/psi be stored to clear space for someone else?

What would be the requisites that potential sorc/psi need to know about. The "if this happens, or starts to happen, we will be forced to store you" clauses.   Aside the usual abuse, detriment to the game, breach of rules, acting outside of conduct that a karma 8 high karma spec app requires.

Am I right in thinking that everyones Karma will be set to zero after this is implemented?

Seems like this will piss people off who have gotten used to their options.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 25, 2017, 10:19:28 PM
Am I right in thinking that everyones Karma will be set to zero after this is implemented?

Seems like this will piss people off who have gotten used to their options.

No, no one is being set to zero. The staff has said everyone's existing karma will be REset - to the new scale. So if you have max karma now, your new karma will be 3, not 9 or whatever it is now, because the higher number will cease to exist and your current karma options will now exist in 3, instead. If you have no karma, it'll still be zero.

Quote from: Dar on June 25, 2017, 10:06:48 AM
Regarding the Sorc/Psi roles.

If a player has to take time off, or RL things is making him rare. Perhaps perpetually, perhaps over some particular timespan. Will that sorc/psi be stored to clear space for someone else?

If there is no better way, I suppose that comes under the heading of "Life sucks sometimes," and those affected have to bite the bullet.

Brokkr, that data is very interesting to know. Thank you.

I feel like karma regen times will encourage people not to play the game for months at a time, if their brand-new PC bites it hard early on. Assuming the player isn't horribly addicted and will play anything just to log in...there's really not much of a point in rolling a PC with an inferior skillset and sticking with it when there's a better alternative available.

I don't understand the mentality of "I'll just not play if my karma character dies and I have to wait to play another one." I always thought it was a good idea to mix it up a bit anyway. I'll play a karma role, then switch to mundane. Or play a couple different types of karma roles, and mix it with mundane. I play because I love the game, not because I want to be a master-armorsmith. So if I can't play karma roles for a month or two, I'm good with that. I get that other people feel differently, I just don't get why.

Quote from: solera on June 26, 2017, 01:10:15 AM

Quote from: Dar on June 25, 2017, 10:06:48 AM
Regarding the Sorc/Psi roles.

If a player has to take time off, or RL things is making him rare. Perhaps perpetually, perhaps over some particular timespan. Will that sorc/psi be stored to clear space for someone else?

If there is no better way, I suppose that comes under the heading of "Life sucks sometimes," and those affected have to bite the bullet.

As I said earlier, I think the best way to combat this is to have the limits not be hard limits.  Staff has always kept soft limits on non-mundane characters.  I've been told once for a special app and once for a regular app that it was turned down because the guild was at capacity at the time.  And I was told to resubmit or put in a request at a later date to see if room had freed up.

Also, as someone else stated, having a hard limit tempts us to meta when we are in a situation where we happen to know/know of all/most of the powerful 4.  I don't -want- to know this number. I think ~4 is better than 4+/-0.

A similar problem caused by knowing this kind of information is that going forward any evidence of drov/elk/nilazi magick in game will be assumed to be the result of sorcerery instead of a possible elementalist being more/equally likely as is how the IC world tends to balance and how the game was in a past. Sometimes I feel like I would give my left reproductive organ to be able to unknow things about the game/world.

I have updated the announcement post to reflect the changes we are looking into with regards to the feedback here.  Thanks again for the spirited debate. 

Again we would like to reiterate that we fully expect things will need to be tweaked as we see how this works 'in the wild' but we will make sure to keep everyone up to date on the progress.

I for one am very excited to move this project along so we can move on to some other exciting projects that are waiting on this code (and some related code) like beta testing new guilds.

Thanks again for the input, it was very helpful.

Quote from: Nathvaan on June 26, 2017, 09:58:00 AM
I have updated the announcement post to reflect the changes we are looking into with regards to the feedback here.  Thanks again for the spirited debate. 

Again we would like to reiterate that we fully expect things will need to be tweaked as we see how this works 'in the wild' but we will make sure to keep everyone up to date on the progress.

I for one am very excited to move this project along so we can move on to some other exciting projects that are waiting on this code (and some related code) like beta testing new guilds.

Thanks again for the input, it was very helpful.

Thank you! It looks great. Can I just ask one question? When you are accepted to play a sorc or psi under this system, are you obligated to store your current right away (or in a certain amount of time) if you want the slot? I don't see another fair way to deal with the limit. I don't think anyone would like being turned away from playing a sorc or psi just because someone else has dibs on one whenever their current dies, and who knows how long that will be.

Quote from: sleepyhead on June 26, 2017, 10:09:10 AM
Thank you! It looks great. Can I just ask one question? When you are accepted to play a sorc or psi under this system, are you obligated to store your current right away (or in a certain amount of time) if you want the slot? I don't see another fair way to deal with the limit. I don't think anyone would like being turned away from playing a sorc or psi just because someone else has dibs on one whenever their current dies, and who knows how long that will be.

A totally understandable question.  While I can't say we have arrived on a 100% settled way to handle this what I can say is that in no way do we intend to have the system be unfair with how the roles are handled.  I suspect it will generally be a judgement call for the admin+ staffers.  We'll discuss it though, very good question.

I have a suggestion for the quandry re: psi/sorc approval vs. current character storage.

IF the current character (CC) = 0 karma
ANDIF CC = non-sponsored role or clanned leader OR sponsored/clanned leader who has been in the game/a leader for less than 2RL weeks (such as a newblar or recently promoted Byn sergeant)
THEN CC can be stored temporarily, for up to 2RL months.

If the above is true, then...

IF the new PC lives longer than 2RL months
THEN CC gets stored permanently.
IF the new PC doesn't make it that long,
THEN player gets to unstore their CC.

That's all I got for now.

Not complaining by why the 0 karma argument on line 1?

Quote from: Lizzie on June 26, 2017, 07:14:59 AM
I don't understand the mentality of "I'll just not play if my karma character dies and I have to wait to play another one." I always thought it was a good idea to mix it up a bit anyway. I'll play a karma role, then switch to mundane. Or play a couple different types of karma roles, and mix it with mundane. I play because I love the game, not because I want to be a master-armorsmith. So if I can't play karma roles for a month or two, I'm good with that. I get that other people feel differently, I just don't get why.

Why would you keep playing a warrior/armorcrafter beyond the month or whatever it takes to wait and play a warrior/master armorcrafter?

It's not about mundane vs. magick.  It's about the simple fact that there's no point in locking yourself into something inferior when you have the self-control to just not play the game until you can get what you really want.  If you're completely addicted to the game to the point where that consideration doesn't matter to you, then fine...but I'd suggest that perhaps there aren't so many people who are absolutely desperate to play Armageddon as you imagine.

If you -do- play that inferior character...what's the point in continuing to grind away at it when you can do something totally reckless IC, die, and roll your karma-required subguild?  The only reason I can imagine keeping a 0-karma subclass PC after a couple of months is if they rolled legitimately amazing stats or the subclass wasn't particularly relevant.  I mean...yeah...rangers are so damn versatile as a main guild that you could probably play a long term 0-karma subguild ranger with minimal buyer's remorse, as long as you got good stats.  Likewise, merchants are so completely useless at everything except crafting that it probably doesn't matter (much) what your subguild is.

Even with the CGP system...the CGP-required subguilds are the new baseline for every player that has enough karma not to need to use a special-app for them.  Sure, this is a roleplaying game, but skills matter immensely.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 26, 2017, 11:38:35 AM
Not complaining by why the 0 karma argument on line 1?

Because I don't think it's fair to take up a karma based role slot, preventing others people from taking it, on a temporary basis to play and even more-limited availability role. Seems kind of greedy to me. If you HAVE 3 karma and want to special app a sorc/psi, and you're currently playing a 100% mundane character, then you should be able to store it temporarily (at first) to make sure that you can return to that character if the psi/sorc doesn't work out in a short period of time.

Is there a limit on karma based, but non sorc/psi roles? I wasnt aware of that.

Quote from: Dar on June 26, 2017, 12:59:41 PM
Is there a limit on karma based, but non sorc/psi roles? I wasnt aware of that.

It's a time limit, but I would imagine if they found that all 3-karma players were using it on the same guild/subguild all the time, they'd eventually want to pare down on that and tell someone "hey we already have a dozen of those - we can approve it for the next round but would you mind pretty please trying something else for this next PC of yours?"

In fact if they said that to me I'd be happy to comply, especially knowing that the app itself IS approved - just not for this particular PC.

Based on the feedback, eliminate extended subguilds and add a skill to each of the normal subguilds.

Because this mentality of 'I won't play unless I can play an extended' is revealing a serious design flaw as far as how it interacts with players.

Extended subguilds will likely be much more of a "requirement" for some roles/players if the new class system eliminates the well-rounded mastery that comes with warriors, merchants, and rangers (and probably assassins) as described in the staff teaser about it.

More like "Eliminate standard subguilds because they are shit compared to the Extended."

Unfortunately I think the general staff philosophy is that they want individual characters able to do less, so that we cooperate with each other more. Personally I find such restricted skillsets to be pretty immersion breaking ("ten years in the cavalry and I still can't ride?") and would rather us be forced to work together because the world is that fucking dangerous, but that's just me. I wouldn't be at all surprised if staff ditched the Extended Subguilds and instead made every crafting Subguild able to Master Craft.

rip merchants and assassins who might be able to exist outside of their narrow niche thanks to Outdoorsman and Protector subguilds.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 26, 2017, 01:49:16 PM
Based on the feedback, eliminate extended subguilds and add a skill to each of the normal subguilds.

Because this mentality of 'I won't play unless I can play an extended' is revealing a serious design flaw as far as how it interacts with players.

I think I'd challenge that and say... the guild revamp will probably fix some of those issues. Right now everybody wants to play an extended subguild because most of the main guilds (other than Ranger and Merchant) are severely lacking in utility and capability. Increasing main guild capability decreases the need for extended subguilds, and may even make them fairly obsolete.

If main guild capability is increased, the 'flavor' subguilds may come more into play. Nomad comes to mind - I like that a subguild gives you a different accent and a language, as well as a host of useful abilities. I'd certainly be interested in other subguilds with similar abilities - ones that let you speak Allundean, or Mirukkim, and give abilities commiserate with someone that has spent a long time among desert elves or dwarves. And please don't tell me linguist. Languages are nice, but not useful enough to use an entire subguild on unless you're basing your entire concept around that, or you're playing a high-utility class, like Ranger, or to a lesser extent, Assassin.

What doesn't make sense to me, personally, is why mastercrafting is gated behind a karma wall. Take, for example, a nomad - they have one crafting skill (spearmaking). I think allowing a PC that works at it to achieve master status in a single crafting skill as the result of a subguild is not that big of a deal.

Alternatively, an interesting thought is the ability to increase a skill max of a non-combat skill in CG using an RPP, rather than increasing the starting level. I'd much rather play a Nomad with master spearmaking than most of the extended subguilds.

Quote from: helix on June 26, 2017, 02:08:26 PM
Alternatively, an interesting thought is the ability to increase a skill max of a non-combat skill in CG using an RPP, rather than increasing the starting level. I'd much rather play a Nomad with master spearmaking than most of the extended subguilds.

It would be nice if we could use Karma to bump up an existing, long-lived character's skills. Spend a karma point on your RL-year-old Nomad to get master spearcrafting with the hope you don't die immediately and let it recharge.

My long-lived characters are all 0/0 karma. They tend to get good at what they can do four or five months in to their 18 month average lifetime with little room for advancement. My current 4 points of karma have been of little use except for flavor bumps (buying languages, which I would only be able to do once a year now ffs) or stroking my own ego.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 26, 2017, 02:34:50 PM

Quote from: helix on June 26, 2017, 02:08:26 PM
Alternatively, an interesting thought is the ability to increase a skill max of a non-combat skill in CG using an RPP, rather than increasing the starting level. I'd much rather play a Nomad with master spearmaking than most of the extended subguilds.

It would be nice if we could use Karma to bump up an existing, long-lived character's skills. Spend a karma point on your RL-year-old Nomad to get master spearcrafting with the hope you don't die immediately and let it recharge.

+1

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 26, 2017, 02:07:26 PM
rip merchants and assassins who might be able to exist outside of their narrow niche thanks to Outdoorsman and Protector subguilds.

And burglars :(, but hey, at least we still got search!

So special application that have little to do with karma will all be limited to 1 per year? Misc changes like cannibalism ability, or extraordinary mutation, or maybe an extra language. All of that will be limited to 1 year?

Quote from: Dar on June 26, 2017, 05:40:57 PM
So special application that have little to do with karma will all be limited to 1 per year? Misc changes like cannibalism ability, or extraordinary mutation, or maybe an extra language. All of that will be limited to 1 year?

I'd really like clarification on this as well. I can't say I've ever used 3 in a year but 1 per year seems really rough considering how even minor tweaks require special apping. I got told once I'd have to special app if I wanted to play a character with an additional accent. Once a year for stuff like that seems pretty extreme.

We will continue to discuss the policy issues (like how many special apps/year) but I believe I have the code aspect of this worked out.  We will probably be deploying this shortly, perhaps in the next few days.

You can expect to see "All karma options adjusted." on the first login after this updates and there maybe a little delay/lag when that happens while the machine does a lot of DB work in the background.  It will only happen on the first login.

Thanks again for the discussion.

Nathvaan,

Glad to see the karma changes are finally going on. Thanks for all the good discussion with us!

Just one more quick question -

If we notice an issue with our karma options after this happens, should we bug it in-game or send up a request through the request tool?

Please put a request in through the tool.  It may be part of a larger issue that will require coder types to look at it and they will not always be on to see the wish.  Putting in the request as a bug will make sure it's brought to their attention. Thanks.

Have these changes gone through?

It looks like it for me.

From the official announcement, bottom half:

QuoteGranting Karma:
Karma will be granted using existing criteria.  Each karma category can only be granted once. (i.e. Only 1 point for Roleplay, 1 point for Leadership etc.).  A level 3 player should still have achieved in 6+ areas.  On review multiple karma categories may be awarded. If not enough categories are awarded to move to the next level the category will be noted and used when next reviewing the account.

Level 0 - No criteria required
Level 1 - 1 or 2 points
Level 2 - 3 to 5 points
Level 3 - 6 or all 8 points
Karma criteria remains the same:
Longevity
Good communication
Ability to roleplay
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
Contributes to the game
Leadership

Level 3 can't get all 8 points, because there are only 7 points. There used to be 8 points because you used to be able to get 2 points I believe for longevity.

In addition, the original karma change proposal of 2011 is stickied, and is now obsolete.

When you get a new karma point will it be automatically filled or will it be "empty" and have to regenerate (or perhaps "generate" is the correct term)?

EDIT: Also, when will the moratorium on karma review requests be lifted in light of the new changes finally coming out?

How do you know, at a glance, what you have and how do you know what you'll have after you pick from an available option?

Looking at the list, I can't tell if I got the shaft or not. There's some options that were not available to me before, but I also lost several of the options which were regular stand-by choices for me.

Quote from: Miradus on July 04, 2017, 10:55:12 PM

How do you know, at a glance, what you have and how do you know what you'll have after you pick from an available option?

Looking at the list, I can't tell if I got the shaft or not. There's some options that were not available to me before, but I also lost several of the options which were regular stand-by choices for me.

Mul is 3
Half Giant is 2
Desert Elf is 1

It seems to be possible to create a Mul guild/advanced subguild.  Which if combined together takes more then 3 Karma.

Quote from: Dar on July 05, 2017, 12:46:45 AM
It seems to be possible to create a Mul guild/advanced subguild.  Which if combined together takes more then 3 Karma.

It's not additive.  Or wasn't.  It's a gate.  Mul is 3, whichever subguild is 3.  All 3's... cost 3

cElf is 0, whichever subguild is 3.  Cost is 3.

Quote from: whitt on July 05, 2017, 02:48:17 AM

Quote from: Dar on July 05, 2017, 12:46:45 AM
It seems to be possible to create a Mul guild/advanced subguild.  Which if combined together takes more then 3 Karma.

It's not additive.  Or wasn't.  It's a gate.  Mul is 3, whichever subguild is 3.  All 3's... cost 3

cElf is 0, whichever subguild is 3.  Cost is 3.

Correct!  Also I would like to state I do expect there to be some bugs in a rewrite this massive.  If you see any issues on how you might be able to circumvent the spirit of the change please put in a bug report to let us know.

Thanks.

it seems possible to circumvent some restrictions on race/magicker that I thought existed, for example d-elfs should be unable to play a wind magicker?

Quote from: 650Booger on July 05, 2017, 03:26:39 PM
it seems possible to circumvent some restrictions on race/magicker that I thought existed, for example d-elfs should be unable to play a wind magicker?

I'm not certain this restriction actually exists, but rather there are no Desert Elf clans that "allow" a wind magicker in their ranks specifically.

I see no reason not to add those restrictions. They're not going to be approved without a spec. app anyways and you already can't play a Delf assassin or a Celf ranger. Seems like it would just save everyone time and ensure no anomalies slip through the approval system.

Well fuck me.

I actually love this.

100%

Man 8 Karma always felt like... impossible to achieve.

Yet the idea that Psion/Sorc could open up at the 3 karma level and a spec app... make it feel achievable and fair, while keeping the quality/maturity you're looking for in place.

I seriously like the changes.  Wish all the cool classes like Elk/Nilaz were back though.

I took a look at my options list and was kind of intrigued. I'm going to miss <most useless witch> option but I've never had the option to do a wind witch before.

I lost a karma point fairly recently and it wasn't a big deal to me at the time; however, with the change I have now lost quite a few more options, so I have to admit I'm a little sad. I hope I can earn that point back soon!

I basically have all the options I had before. So long as I have the option for some of the more neat extended subguilds, I'm okay with it.

However, man would I like to play a psi and just stalk people I find interesting.

I'd still hope that they ease up on special apps restriction. The ones that dont involve abnormal use of karma. The mutation, the little oddities that could make things cooler, or complete a chara concept

Quote from: Dar on July 08, 2017, 06:41:21 PM
I'd still hope that they ease up on special apps restriction. The ones that dont involve abnormal use of karma. The mutation, the little oddities that could make things cooler, or complete a chara concept

In my dream world, these would be submitted like a normal character application. During character creation, you'd set a flag that would let you fill out another field - an explanation of what's different about this character, and what you need staff to do to make this happen, like removing your ability to speak, applying cannibal code, or changing your race to kank. These flagged applications would go into the normal approval queue - probably taking a bit longer for approval or denial because they may take higher-than-Storytellers to resolve - and the flag would increment a ticker on your account, so if they wish staff can restrict the number of these sorts of applications you can make in some chosen time period.

Then the request tool character application process would be reserved for role applications, higher-than-karma applications, skill bumps or changes, and the well-and-truly weird.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 08, 2017, 11:48:39 PM

Quote from: Dar on July 08, 2017, 06:41:21 PM
I'd still hope that they ease up on special apps restriction. The ones that dont involve abnormal use of karma. The mutation, the little oddities that could make things cooler, or complete a chara concept

In my dream world, these would be submitted like a normal character application. During character creation, you'd set a flag that would let you fill out another field - an explanation of what's different about this character, and what you need staff to do to make this happen, like removing your ability to speak, applying cannibal code, or changing your race to kank. These flagged applications would go into the normal approval queue - probably taking a bit longer for approval or denial because they may take higher-than-Storytellers to resolve - and the flag would increment a ticker on your account, so if they wish staff can restrict the number of these sorts of applications you can make in some chosen time period.

Then the request tool character application process would be reserved for role applications, higher-than-karma applications, skill bumps or changes, and the well-and-truly weird.

That would mean while this is under approval and work (no different then spec app), you'd be unable to play anything else and be between characters. You couldnt get this thing go through approval while still playing something else.

True, but it would also take a lot less time, because it'd get more eyes and not require a parallel work process.

Still, if you don't like the idea, that's fine.

have we heard when karma reviews will be reinstated?

Quote from: 650Booger on July 11, 2017, 06:50:04 PM
have we heard when karma reviews will be reinstated?

Three days ago this was posted:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52679.msg991261.html#msg991261