Some suggestions stewing in my brain; more and better ones are welcome.
* reinstating the Jaxa Pah
* adding 1-2 non-rinthi city elf tribes that can be joined at chargen (perhaps one that travels consistently and one that does not; or some other contrary combination)
* allowing elves to attain or retroactively have the background necessary for rangers
* adding more elf-friendly content in general-- a lot of the newest content is for humans or powerful humans (because that's what most people are playing)
* elf-run taverns/shops, more elven npcs to represent the game, perhaps with discounts for elves (the code exists already)
*back alley elf shopkeepers whose default language is set to elvish--- who provide culturally relevant goods such as a small amount of poison ingredients, pre-poisoned daggers, etc.
* cultures change over time--- allowing elves to gradually lose their stigma against riding mounts (they once were allowed to ride mounts, so they're not going to explode if they get on, not physically anyway)
* a shop that only serves elves which sells the ingredients to make low-end booze (there is a name for commoner-made bad booze with a helpfile attached to it, don't remember the name); just a shop like this in general would also add to the game
Or--dare I dig up the old chestnut?--city run!
Right now when I see a city elf I think, "God, there goes a player who is in it for the difficulty level."
So I may sneer and spit and do all the things roundears do to city elves, but it's a hat tip to them really. An acknowledgement that they're playing the underdog in a game that eats the underdog alive and I respect that.
All of your suggestions want to make it easier to be a city elf, in which case the glory of being one disappears. I disapprove.
I do think about roling one now and then, but it is a hard choice.
You give up sooo much potential for meaningful interaction in exchange for what sometimes only amounts to interesting fountain RP. You can do everything an elf can as a human but in addition they can travel to new locations, change to almost any job, reinvent themselves and move up in the world.
Even those cool interesting sucessful elves I have seen, only make me wonder what that player could have accomplished playing a human. There isn't enough content open to elves, and any perks they might get pale in comparison to just about any other race. I really think they need to be brought in line with half-elves and dwarves in terms of ability and content availability.
Quote from: Cind on June 08, 2017, 05:36:02 PM
Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
Getting more people to play
what now elves?
Im very jaded on this topic. Celves could be awesome. They wont be though. Theyve been put on the backburner for years. Every once in a while a staffer makes the mistake of saying theyre working on a celf tribe. I say scrap the idea entirely. Only desert elves. The idea of humans putting up with elves has never made sense.
And yet every time there was a group of 4 tightly knit elves working together, they owned the entirety of the criminal world.
Until the first major PvP battle of course.
Quote from: Dar on June 08, 2017, 11:14:51 PM
And yet every time there was a group of 4 tightly knit elves working together, they owned the entirety of the criminal world.
Until the first major PvP battle of course.
I've noticed that any time there's 4 tightly knit of anything working together then it's a happening place that everyone wants to be.
Quote from: Miradus on June 09, 2017, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: Dar on June 08, 2017, 11:14:51 PM
And yet every time there was a group of 4 tightly knit elves working together, they owned the entirety of the criminal world.
Until the first major PvP battle of course.
I've noticed that any time there's 4 tightly knit of anything working together then it's a happening place that everyone wants to be.
Yeah, synergy between awesome PCs goes beyond race choice and (somewhat beyond) location.
If we want the world to thrive and stories to unfold, those players should be found, identified, tagged, and then released back to the wild with the attention and resources needed to go do awesome things.
I don't mean just plop them into canned sponsored roles. I mean find out what they're trying to accomplish and give them the (possibly vNPC) resources needed to succeed or fail.
I think sometimes we look at plots and say, "this one will fail" and decide not to pursue it. When the reality is, the most fun I've had is with plots I KNEW would ultimately blow up in my face. Success in a plot is fun. Failure can be fun. Just flat out having your plot attempts ignored by players and staff alike is not fun. I realize staff can't be everywhere and that some IC plots are going to interfere with the plots of other players (that intersection is where the FUN happens) but I do think a more concentrated effort needs to be made to find out what's happening in the non-sponsored, non-clanned social arena and see if there's anything there that could be spun out into big fun.
I like the idea of making elves more involved for their RP, but not more accepted which hasn't been brought up of course. I don't like the thought of making elves have an easy time myself because it is not meant to be. They are not accepted in most all of society.
I think reopening the Jaxa Pah could be a good play, but other "clans" could be made by players IC if they wanted to pursue it. I would like to see a tribe of city elves start something up together. I think if players were to currently put in the effort that staff may look at the shops and a tavern as a possibility.
I don't believe a City Elf should have the ability to be a ranger. It may be a personal opinion, but I believe a ranger is geared more towards the wilderness which is more the Desert Elf terrain.
Also, I don't think that elves should and would ever accept riding a mount. This has been so hardwired into their brains from the moment they are born that any thought or suggestion to ride a beast is shunned by elves as a whole. Should it ever be the case, which I hope never is, I assume they would see a shift in their very core as they no longer would have the speed or stamina as they have now because they would not be running or using it and start relying on a beast.
There was already a huge effort undertaken which helped the city elves (and all the other ne'er-do-wells). That's the southside roof system. There's food and water up there (at cheap prices) and routes that pretty much cover from the Gaj all the way to the Templar's quarter. There's at least three save rooms that I know of and probably 5 quit rooms.
If the same effort was taken to extend them across the rest of the city and into the rinth, and then the rinth rooftop system was corrected as to become actually Euclidean, you'd have this entire "shadow city" overlaid on top of Allanak proper. The only time you'd ever see some of these skeevy elves is when you find them unconscious in the street where they failed their Parkour check from a rooftop 4 rooms up.
tl;dr - Elves are in a very bad spot right now due to staff support constantly leaning away from them, combined with a few very strong misconceptions of the playerbase on how to play a decent elf. Ideas are great, opening up clans would be great, but also keep in mind that with how elves have been the last few years, there's some instances where very non-elven behavior has become prominent, either in practice, or in proposed fixes, code wise, to make them more appealing. Elves always have, and always will be, more about cunning than prowess.
I already play mostly city-elves, and have for a very long time.
Mostly I think there's a problem of them being in the game but having had all of their in game roles systematically removed and moved elsewhere, largely because of this idea of consolidation that's going on and obvious neglect (i.e. A shop that at one point sold/dealt with all elves now moved to only deal with a single clan that no longer exists, and it's been left in that state for years, OR, the shop that used to cut better deals to elves to emphasize black market trading/fencing, then did it for only a single clan, and now does it for no one).
In discourse with a staff member, I've been told that the problem with elven tribes/groups is their strong loyalty giving them advantages over other groups; I've tried to compromise on that bit, even though I find it a little silly. That -is- the trademark of elves, is that even 'the lonefoot' has specific ties that are growing into loyalty ones. That's by design, and it's their legitimate strength and desirable trait. My compromise has always been a differentiation between elven gangs versus elven families. Elven families will without fail be entirely loyal; if you mess with any part of that family, you have a straight vendetta on you that you can't buy your way out of. It will result in submission to stipulations or death. This is why eastside, in terms of the role it plays, -is- stronger than the westside. Don't contest that. It's true. The difference is that the eastside is rarely united by threat. By design, you don't want to give incentive to unifying multiple tribes of elves against you. This is, currently, very hard to realize in game because of the lack of support given in such.
The elven gang, on the other hand, is not a family. Gangs are much looser, much less loyal to each other, and are based around mutual gains and enterprises and working together to create favorable conditions for favors to be granted and owed, and this is the realm that elves work in and thrive in. A large part of the problem lies in player mentality where people want to play an elf exactly the same as some other race, but with a couple tweaks, but elves go entirely different. Theft as feats of courage grants insight into their mentality far further than just 'they steal a lot'. Personal risks are something that is viewed as ballsy and something to be admired when they work out, and something they should have seen coming or stupid when they attempt it and don't pull it off. That extends into their business dealings. An elven gang should be avoiding risks save for calculated moves, which is why elves as a rule are more of a 'make them disappear' mentality over a 'Kill them in the streets and send a message' mentality. The message is that people who go against them tend to disappear under mysterious circumstances, not that they look like badasses.
I agree that staff support is required. But it's mostly to correct the sideways effects of other changes in the game, i.e. other groups taking over their traditional 'turf' as far as business. I've spoken in discord about how elves, historically, were the importers of poisons into the city. They ruthlessly stamped out other avenues so that their deals with their desert-elf relations (which were always kept strong) were the main method of import. There are small changes like this over the past long time that apparently seemed like small shifts, but were actually very potent in degrading the 'place' that elves had in the city.
Coinciding with this has been the struggle for players to keep them relevant by themselves. It's resulted in that loyalty issue becoming very downplayed and reduced to outright 'pledges' of loyalty into groups, which is...odd. It's an avenue of play that I've not really experienced until the last couple years at most. Prior, it was just an intrinsic trust that built over the long course of repeated dealings. It took a long time, because as it grows, it results in increases in personal vulnerability. That acknowledgement in being behind a closed door. That acknowledgement that they have friends and you don't, and they want you to stand there alone in front of them. Etc. Etc. Etc. It's only as that vulnerability is ventured tentatively and met with trust that trust grows. Again, it's a -long- process, which is part of why I can understand the lack of appeal to many players.
QuoteAnd yet every time there was a group of 4 tightly knit elves working together, they owned the entirety of the criminal world.
Until the first major PvP battle of course.
In my experience, this is untrue. There have, however, been instances where a group was doing well on all fronts until staff decided it was out of hand, where I point to one of the things I pointed out above: Just because you're strong as an elven group doesn't mean you get reckless or big in your boots. Always maintain that 'in the shadows' approach. Don't try to create wars, try to manipulate situations to get what the tribe/gang needs without it coming back to them. Just like the Guild, no crime group is strong enough to wage all out war against the other factions of the game. Stop trying. That's suicidal. Likewise, all out war between west and east sides of the labyrinth profits -no one-. No one in their right mind wants to make that war. It fucks over both sides on any of their true goals.
To be clear, when you create an elf, create an elf. Don't just choose elf because you want to be villainous and -look- like a criminal. Stop trying to play the in-character stereotype of an elf, and play a true character that other people will mold into the stereotype. You should be playing smart. You should be looking to invest favors and steal favors in a way that furthers your survival and resources available to be able to arrange favors for someone else (and thus have them owe you one). Try to owe favors just as much as you earn them, so that there are entities that are interested in your survival. Play the elven life the way many of you play the elven stereotype, but in a way that makes sense from a psychological standpoint. You're careful. You take calculated risks of daring when you think you can pull it off. You know the rest of the city doesn't care much for you, so you're out to make them care. Your 'shadiness' is actually shrewd negotiation and being aware of the status quo and the state of every relationship you have.
That was great, Armaddict. Have you ever considered making a full c-elf guide? I would really love something like that, personally.
Look. I tried.
It's been four years. Four years of threads like these, trying to make celven things happen, writing up docs bigger than that of some established trives, helping out staffers who said they were making a new tribe, of being made empty promises, of watching celven gangs get stemped out by animated NPCs because they dared do a thing.
Nothing that's been said in this thread is new. Nothing in this thread is going to be new. There is no lack of suggestions. No lack of material or ideas. The one thing that is necessary is implementation - and for reasons that are beyond me, it doesn't happen. Ever. But I guess the Atrium got reopened, so that's nice, yay.
It's in staff's hands, and I'm really not inclined to see it another way. Go fix it. I tried, others did, you have not.
QuoteLook. I tried.
You and me have had several disagreements on this despite being largely in the same camp. We both agree that staff will have to put a foot forward in improving the elven plight. Our main difference, in my interpretation, is that you're looking to personally empower elves more, where I'm fine with elves in their current state but think that the 'community' surrounding elves needs to be reinforced and actually emphasized as something in place in the game world.
They both provide incentive to play elves. I'm just hoping that their place in the game is as a large group of elves that are more prone to and comfortable working with each other than with non-elves, creating a strong network of 'don't fuck with this, this is our business' rather than as a continuation of more powerful single elves more capable of leaving a large mark by themselves. Everything about elves is set up as groups, and so the complete lack of groups and the lack of that enforced community is largely creating a 'what's the point?' perception surrounding them.
QuoteHave you ever considered making a full c-elf guide?
I have, but it's largely dependent on a fairly consistent dialogue with staff to make sure that my perceptions on things can match up with their current goals and desires of what to put effort into. That dialogue usually peters out, which makes it hard to insure I'm not submitting ideas that won't just be ignored.
That's not to say the communication is poor. I think it's just a problem of motivation and interest in putting in effort. That makes it sound bad, but realize that the elven community and its 'power' in the game requires a good deal of oversight and maintenance that will be taxing for anyone who isn't really personally invested in that pursuit.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 09, 2017, 03:07:21 PM
QuoteLook. I tried.
You and me have had several disagreements on this despite being largely in the same camp. We both agree that staff will have to put a foot forward in improving the elven plight. Our main difference, in my interpretation, is that you're looking to personally empower elves more, where I'm fine with elves in their current state but think that the 'community' surrounding elves needs to be reinforced and actually emphasized as something in place in the game world.
They both provide incentive to play elves. I'm just hoping that their place in the game is as a large group of elves that are more prone to and comfortable working with each other than with non-elves, creating a strong network of 'don't fuck with this, this is our business' rather than as a continuation of more powerful single elves more capable of leaving a large mark by themselves. Everything about elves is set up as groups, and so the complete lack of groups and the lack of that enforced community is largely creating a 'what's the point?' perception surrounding them.
I'd be fine with even elves getting some documentation updates, sure.. Which, again, is entirely up to staff. Players don't change player attitude very often outside of extraordinary circumstances, and I'm done with trying for now.
Quote from: sleepyhead on June 08, 2017, 05:50:59 PM
Or--dare I dig up the old chestnut?--city run!
City-elves already have (or had, last time I played one, which admittedly was years ago) 2 bonuses when running in the city:
1) You are too fast for anything except another elf to shadow you without using magick.
2) You have a reduced stamina cost in every room. In the majority of 'rinth rooms, this cost is zero, so you can run non-stop through the 'rinth.
Not every city elf has to be a rinth elf. I agree with the problem being mostly no clan support though. I do like to play c elves, but end up soloing most of the time as one and dying to something stupid early on like seven days played.
Am I the only one who doesn't like the "Engrained in their brains" mentality of "can't ride mounts" when they physically are not superior to their sand dune running asshole cousins? If they like running so much they should have stayed at a level of "We live in the city and hunt outside of it" that they should have kept their running ability.
And if they did grow out of it, they should have mentally adjusted.
#somethingsomethingelvishevolution
.
MH, all of that already exists. You've got the entire eastside of the 'rinth which is populated by elves and there is a ton of vNPC evidence of elves banding together.
Southside you've got rooftop villages with quit rooms, tattoo parlor (you don't exist in game until you get your own tattooist), and food/water merchants. PLUS guards which enforce crimcode on said rooftop. You don't even need climb to get up there. The elves helpfully put in stairs for their roundear clients.
What lacks is the PC community to center themselves around one of these existing functions. I've seen it tried, but ... elves ...
They don't usually try to rally others to their cause and then when two of them get together and start succeeding, someone is there to put a boot on their neck.
.
Idea on clans (I actually love the JP, hate that they're not open for you people who like playing elves):
City elf family role with the goal of -starting- a player ran clan (this is how nearly all the clans came about and thankfully, unlike when I started playing, it is an option again.
I do think city running could be fiddled with a little.
Quote from: Jihelu on June 24, 2017, 03:03:25 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't like the "Engrained in their brains" mentality of "can't ride mounts" when they physically are not superior to their sand dune running asshole cousins? If they like running so much they should have stayed at a level of "We live in the city and hunt outside of it" that they should have kept their running ability.
And if they did grow out of it, they should have mentally adjusted.
#somethingsomethingelvishevolution
I doubt this will ever be changed.
In 2010, I went through the trouble of going through all existing elf-related documentation and proposing changes that would retcon the idea and produce consistent documentation that allowed city-elves to ride. I believe the response essentially was *crickets*.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 26, 2017, 03:23:32 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on June 24, 2017, 03:03:25 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't like the "Engrained in their brains" mentality of "can't ride mounts" when they physically are not superior to their sand dune running asshole cousins? If they like running so much they should have stayed at a level of "We live in the city and hunt outside of it" that they should have kept their running ability.
And if they did grow out of it, they should have mentally adjusted.
#somethingsomethingelvishevolution
I doubt this will ever be changed.
In 2010, I went through the trouble of going through all existing elf-related documentation and proposing changes that would retcon the idea and produce consistent documentation that allowed city-elves to ride. I believe the response essentially was *crickets*.
Life is hard.
I love playing city elves. City elf warrior is the best out the box raider of all time.
Staff once told me I could not both be an elf and restrict my thievery to virtual (noncoded) thefts, which has kept me from playing city elves ever since.
Although, honestly, I think they just misunderstood me, since the way thievery is set up, you could not live an elf's full life all the way through while stealing 2-3 times a RL week.
I'd rather play something else well than play an elf badly.
I don't want to play city elves much anymore because I keep feeling disappointed when my companion c elves die off. I have seen some cool stuff accomplished by good city elves, and it was an honor to walk (NOT run) beside them. City elves are kind of a joke; all the bonuses they get are totally meh. The punchline is that they always die. Nobody here can impress me with how long lived their city elf was, it was never enough to start a tribe or family. Everyone, including myself, seems to run out of steam fighting this lonely fight and gets reckless and then dies or disappears. I stopped caring about the problem because nobody else seems to either.
The only thing that would get me to play a city elf again at this point would be a family role call from one of the few players I was able to clan up with as a city elf before, because I know that they can handle the task. I'm not a leader really and more of a follower/supporter. So if someone posted on here and said, "Hi, I'm an experienced c elf, I played as ***, and I'm looking for some family blood to roll up characters with me." I would apply straight away to join them (if I can see their post on this cluttered GDB).
The problem isn't city elves as coded, I feel.
They have a part of the city they effectively hold (as well as anyone holds anything). They have shops and their own bar. They have tunnels in and out of the city, and they have food and water. They have their agility + steal/hide/sneak and are effective at their role.
They are submarines where some people want to play them as destroyers.
But unlike the Guild, there's no reason to associate with city elves. Sure, a few of them join the Byn to try to circumvent the social issues and once they get a shitcloak on their back they can pretend they are just a very dodgy human, but at the end of the day they have nothing they offer to the city.
People put up with the Guild because the Guild offers spice, cheap goods (resale), and access to assassins. (The elves offer all of that too, but less effectively and with no organization.)
There is nothing they offer on their own. No gear, no skills, no unique roleplay (unless you want to feel the fun of being known as an elf-kanker), and no items.
To sum it up ... city elves are fun to play, but not particularly fun to play WITH. And until that changes, don't expect to see many of them succeed.
I agree with Miradus, actually. I've seen people try to start C-Elf clans, and had great fun either being a part of their creation or destruction. But the Guild offers spice, black market dealings, assassinations, and all that 'cool' stuff you go to the shit-part of the city to trade in. When elves start trying to do anything similar, they are now treading on Guild turf and get slapped down for it pretty quickly. In Tuluk, the clan a staffer had started was a clan of artisans that actually had a "purpose" in the city, alongside their nefarious deeds, but there was no Guild presence.
I think if a C-elf family were to exist like, outright to be fences... or to be artisans of some kind (stonework, high-agility painters, etc) who focused more on that, and kind of on the side might have burglars and thieves to supplement their income, it'd be better than "lets get 3 elves together and start slinging spice".
Thoughts? Would it be better if the clan had something to offer, even if mostly virtual, than a direct conflict with an established staff-backed clan? I feel at least then, if someone IS slinging spice, its more of a "well we'll deal with it" rather than "DESTROY THE WHOLE FAMILY THEY SOLD SOMEONE A PINCH OF METH!"
I thoroughly enjoy playing Celves. I've pretty much stopped playing delves after Red Fangs stopped being a beaten dog of less then a day lifespan.
I love how difficult it is to play celves. I enjoy how rewarding it feels when a lowly celf, in spite of tremendous obstacles, manages to become great and grudgingly respected.
It is definitely not an easy role. But I truthfully do not think they should have anymore coded bonuses. Not because they dont need them. Holy fuck on a rat kebob, do they need more coded goodies. But in my opinion, if you're having it easy as a celf, something is not right. Is it an exercise in masochism? Yes. It sort of is. Synthesis put it well once. But ... it is still a fun exercise :). And the rewards and the feelings of success are awesome.
Edit: By the way. Celves get steal, but not hide and sneak.
Grudgingly respected characters are always the best.
There's a bit of respect in starting as a player clan. You could be the top dog in your own clan.
One of my gripes about the established groups (each and every one of them) is that you're always some lowly lieutenant. In every clan there's higher ups who exist only virtually but are always there to come screw up your plan if you start getting outside the lines of where you're told to color or if you pick the wrong crayon. It's frustrating to know that you can't really claw your way to the top of ANYTHING that's already established.
But the other side I've seen is that there's a measure of respect you automatically get if you're part of an established group. Oh, you're an assassin? That's great. Where's the Arm? Oh, you're an assassin with the Guild? I got a job for you.
It's a player community thing that I don't really understand. It's like how suddenly everyone puckers right the heck up as soon as Vennant becomes animated and wipes down the bar. You were all sleepy AFK five seconds ago but NOW you're king-emote? What the heck?
Any non-establishment group is going to need a patron FROM some established group in order to get that kind of respect, and in the case of city elves, there's no reason why any established group would ever take the reputation hit to do it.
It's not like Kadius is going to say, "Oh, I know they're filthy neckers, but have you seen this fabulous bling they're making?" Or Salarr suddenly say that "those sharps make the best shivs."
This is a problem with the game lore and there's no clear way to solve it. Unless of course you want to start integrating eastside and westside into one more inclusive criminal organization. Sure, his ears are pointy, but have you seen that sharp work a lock?
QuoteUnless of course you want to start integrating eastside and westside into one more inclusive criminal organization.
As I've said many times before, I'm not sure where the west became 'no elves allowed'. I think it was a move made with the creation of a couple city-elf clans, or it was a move made by one or two guild leaders that 'stuck'.
Softly, the emaciated, spider-tattooed elf says to the gigantic and obese figure in a dusty hooded, black sandcloth longcloak, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
"Finish the woman."That was a leader of the guild.
Even if it was made into a rarity rather than a rule, it would be better off than it is now unless we plan on giving greater support to eastside.
I'd personally like to play more c-elves but, yeah, I feel there's a lot of red tape that really limits (at least for me) how I would interact with much of the Known.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 27, 2017, 12:05:27 AM
QuoteUnless of course you want to start integrating eastside and westside into one more inclusive criminal organization.
As I've said many times before, I'm not sure where the west became 'no elves allowed'. I think it was a move made with the creation of a couple city-elf clans, or it was a move made by one or two guild leaders that 'stuck'.
Softly, the emaciated, spider-tattooed elf says to the gigantic and obese figure in a dusty hooded, black sandcloth longcloak, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
"Finish the woman."
That was a leader of the guild.
Even if it was made into a rarity rather than a rule, it would be better off than it is now unless we plan on giving greater support to eastside.
While I don't know, myself, I would assume this was a change that gave being in the 'rinth a bit more of a built-in conflict. Its not SPECIFICALLY east-side vs west-side, its just that nobody trusts an elf, and elves distrust humans. The Guild has always been more 'organized' but doesn't have the numbers of East Side. The reason East Side has never grown to prominence is that there is always in-fighting, even with the Jaxa and the Sandas. Eventually, an elf strikes out on their own, takes a few with them, and get snuffed out.
I still think it can work, but when people think Labyrinth, they seem to think 'spice and illegal goods'. If there were more coded (or assisted) opportunities to ambush Salarri supply wagons, or any such things that aren't specifically "this is what the Guild does" there might be more. But then, the Guild might just come in, take over the racket, and kill the elves to tie up loose ends.
In Tuluk, the Templarate actually gave the Akai S'jirr their blessing, as it were. Are there NO tasks in the city that a bunch of artistic or athletic elves could do for the Templarate that wouldn't give them access to State Secrets? No way they could be a stone-worker guild, or painters, or a tribe of sneakies that reports to the Templarate for favors, food, and fancy clothes?
No, that's just about what the Akai Sijir did.. And then they were closed, 'for being too much like a merchant house', which always sort've amused me. There are two nasty organisations in the Known: elven tribes and merchant houses. One will do everything it can to relieve you of your wealth and come out on top; the other is comprised of pointy-eared folk.
I wish that would fit into a quote.
Personally, I think the entire race needs to be rethought and/or retconned with playability in mind.
The elf documentation is a contradictory mess and their general place in the IC world seems to match.
What about them is contradictory?
A penchant for wandering combined with the lack of ranger guild and riding as important cultural points? When you're a newbie, its kind of wtf. They used to not allow you to start anywhere but the cities if you were an elf as well.
Quote from: Cind on June 28, 2017, 06:33:12 AM
A penchant for wandering combined with the lack of ranger guild and riding as important cultural points? When you're a newbie, its kind of wtf. They used to not allow you to start anywhere but the cities if you were an elf as well.
Yeah, I would say that's just expressed poorly in the docs rather than that the docs are just plain contradictory. The penchant for wandering applies more to desert elves who ideally are nomadic (never mind the fact that they have coded encampments that tend to stay put, you can chalk that one up to playability). However the docs do indicate that the wandering aspect of their culture also exists in city elves in the sense that they're constantly on the move within the city. They'd probably never want to lurk in one place for too long for that reason, instead staying in one alley corner for one month and shifting to another alley corner a month later.
I agree if I were a newbie reading that I would definitely be raising some eyebrows. But it doesn't mean you have to be a ranger or ride an animal, let alone ever step foot outside the city.
Moreso because when players think of 'wandering', they assume that it alludes to crossing the entire known.
However, that's...a pretty small thing, hardly worthy of a 'The entire race needs to be retconned/rewritten because contradiction' response.
Truth be said. I wouldnt mind celves to be wonderers. Keep the inability to ride. Let them hoof it. But allow and maybe even encourage their desire to roam across the 'entire' known.
Why do gypsies get away with being thieves and scam artists? Because they're in one town one day, gone the next. Now with Celves, if they're stuck in the city, their main prerogative for the survival of their entire tribe is to get entrenched and respected by the city society. Clearly ... that goes against theme. For even if a Celf tribe 'managed' to achieve the respect and admiration of the entire playerbase (happened before and will again), it will feel so jarring from a virtual point of view.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 28, 2017, 12:28:49 PM
Moreso because when players think of 'wandering', they assume that it alludes to crossing the entire known.
However, that's...a pretty small thing, hardly worthy of a 'The entire race needs to be retconned/rewritten because contradiction' response.
Wandering the entire known is the Jul Tavan docs, not the elf ones.
I miss them. :(
Quote from: Dar on June 28, 2017, 12:54:05 PM
Truth be said. I wouldnt mind celves to be wonderers. Keep the inability to ride. Let them hoof it. But allow and maybe even encourage their desire to roam across the 'entire' known.
If you want to wander the Known, play a desert elf. It's really that simple. City elves are street vermin. That's all they know. Their ancestors who originated from the sands may be rolling in their graves knowing that their descendants are eking out a living in some alleyway but the idea of wandering the Known, to a city elf, would be abhorrent, much as it would to many citizens of Nak or Tuluk. That's just their concept, it's who they are. There's no need to amplify the current city elf skill tree because that's not what they're designed for. There's already a great solution if you want to travel as an elf: play a desert elf.
If you want to wander the known, play a human. :)
Desert elves are pretty locked down.
.
I think C-elves are nearly perfect as-is, including their place in society. They have no natural place within walls around a multiracial society, which is why any integration is begrudged. They are the ancestors of tribals who were too weak to cut it alone, out in the sands, and city-life made them even more soft.
I do think, however, that C-elves should commonly ride mounts. Should they proud of it? No, because they knew their ancestors could outrun said mount over vast distances, but their body has its limitations, so they need to work with them.
Quote from: ghanima on June 28, 2017, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: Dar on June 28, 2017, 12:54:05 PM
Truth be said. I wouldnt mind celves to be wonderers. Keep the inability to ride. Let them hoof it. But allow and maybe even encourage their desire to roam across the 'entire' known.
If you want to wander the Known, play a desert elf. It's really that simple. City elves are street vermin. That's all they know. Their ancestors who originated from the sands may be rolling in their graves knowing that their descendants are eking out a living in some alleyway but the idea of wandering the Known, to a city elf, would be abhorrent, much as it would to many citizens of Nak or Tuluk. That's just their concept, it's who they are. There's no need to amplify the current city elf skill tree because that's not what they're designed for. There's already a great solution if you want to travel as an elf: play a desert elf.
That's the thing, Ghanima. None of the Elves are wanderers. None. Delves are territorial guardians of their turf. Celves are city bound. There is no wondering going on. The way the elves are is diametrically opposite of the concept of "wanderers". Whether it's for the better, or for worse is arguable. But the statement "If you want to wonder, play a delf" does not apply to how the theme is.
I too am against improving celven skill tree. They're fine. I am also not disputing the fact that for a Celf to go out into the waste is abhorrent. This is not what this thread is about. This thread is about making Celves more interesting and favourable to play. And removing the mental antipathy to wondering for a celf, would truly help.
Quote from: Dar on June 28, 2017, 06:49:21 PM
Quote from: ghanima on June 28, 2017, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: Dar on June 28, 2017, 12:54:05 PM
Truth be said. I wouldnt mind celves to be wonderers. Keep the inability to ride. Let them hoof it. But allow and maybe even encourage their desire to roam across the 'entire' known.
If you want to wander the Known, play a desert elf. It's really that simple. City elves are street vermin. That's all they know. Their ancestors who originated from the sands may be rolling in their graves knowing that their descendants are eking out a living in some alleyway but the idea of wandering the Known, to a city elf, would be abhorrent, much as it would to many citizens of Nak or Tuluk. That's just their concept, it's who they are. There's no need to amplify the current city elf skill tree because that's not what they're designed for. There's already a great solution if you want to travel as an elf: play a desert elf.
That's the thing, Ghanima. None of the Elves are wanderers. None. Delves are territorial guardians of their turf. Celves are city bound. There is no wondering going on. The way the elves are is diametrically opposite of the concept of "wanderers". Whether it's for the better, or for worse is arguable. But the statement "If you want to wonder, play a delf" does not apply to how the theme is.
I too am against improving celven skill tree. They're fine. I am also not disputing the fact that for a Celf to go out into the waste is abhorrent. This is not what this thread is about. This thread is about making Celves more interesting and favourable to play. And removing the mental antipathy to wondering for a celf, would truly help.
A d-elf who goes on some sort of rite of passage to travel the Known and prove his worth to his tribe, is in fact a wanderer. A d-elf who leaves his territory to seek out more exotic prey and bring it back to his people, is in fact a wanderer. The only reason it doesn't apply to c-elves is because they are essentially prisoners of the system, victims of the inner city. There's no reason they should be allowed to ride because if you're a c-elf you'd never leave the city to begin with.
If it's too great a deal maybe someone can put in a request for the word wanderer to be removed but I still don't think the docs need to be completely rewritten or that they are somehow contradictory. The elvish wanderer mindset can also mean that they are simply inquisitive by nature. They're like cats. And that element is going to come out even in a c-elf's personality somehow despite that they are confined to the city walls. One way that that aspect of their personality is played out is by stealing from other people.
A city elf who constantly patrols around the city from place to place looking for a scam is wandering. You guys are way too caught up with the demand that it result in traveling. Take that out of the document if you must, but again, it's -far- from 'race-breaking' to the point of retconning or redeveloping the race.
I would like it if there was more incentive to play city elves. I don't know about changing certain things, but I would like to see them have the ability to ride, maybe just not to get the skill or to be able to level it up much. I mean there would be a cultural view on it, and it likely would come with its own issues, but I think it'd be a nice idea if implemented right. As for the other things mentioned, elf specific content sounds nice, and the Clan of them making a return would be nice. Now that there is no Tuluk, it'd be much easier to focus on city elf matters where Allanak and Luir's are.
I'd say - especially since the non-virtual game world of PCs no longer has Tuluk as an enemy - restore the ALA, or some semblance thereof.
It'll get bloody and messy and players will get their feelings hurt but damn it'll be fun once they get past the initial "but that's not FAAAIIIR!!" half-hour after the beep.
One of my favorite c elves I made was just that a wander. Warrior/Nomad..He traveled all over on foot with his best friend another c elf. He killed drov beetles and Carru. He later joined the Byn with his friend. They met a half elf that thought he was an elf. They knew he was a filthy breed and tried to exploit him by selling Byn food to him really cheap. They worked it up to a racket in time. Selling Byn food to the Rynth for pennies on the dollar. And the Rynth was happy to oblige because they are poor and hungry. They were eventually betrayed by a Sando and He was killed in a RedStorm apartment with Perraine. Rip Isos
Both of my favorite PCs were city-elves...but they were both clanned Jaxa Pah (or equivalent). As long as that is no longer possible, it's hard for me to justify rolling a city-elf PC other than to grief.
With how much PCs like to follow the documentation of 'hating on elves', there really is no way for elves to gather without making a Family Role Call that staff can oversee. Because as soon as two elves talk to each other in the Labyrinth, other clans that are as similarly-starving for strife and interaction will waffle-stomp them.
I've seen good city elves in the Byn. I've seen the occasional city elf Kuraci that did a decent job. Most "gud" city elves tend to be fighters of some sort. Like, an elven thief doesn't seem to last too long because the game will swarm.
Open up Jaxa. The Sandas. Open some other clan they CAN join, that doesn't basically force them to inconvenience other players because they need to tent down every 3 minutes.
just chiming in to say that city-elves are fun AF in their current form. not broken, don't fix.
I'm pretty sure if you made a DELF and do...
"
A d-elf who goes on some sort of rite of passage to travel the Known and prove his worth to his tribe, is in fact a wanderer. A d-elf who leaves his territory to seek out more exotic prey and bring it back to his people, is in fact a wanderer. The only reason it doesn't apply to c-elves is because they are essentially prisoners of the system, victims of the inner city. There's no reason they should be allowed to ride because if you're a c-elf you'd never leave the city to begin with.
"
I think you get stored for just fucking off. I know for roles like "Kuraci family member" you would, not sure if it counts for Delves as you are signing up for the roll of "Generic delf numer 12"
Quote from: Jihelu on July 12, 2017, 08:03:03 PM
I think you get stored for just fucking off. I know for roles like "Kuraci family member" you would, not sure if it counts for Delves as you are signing up for the roll of "Generic delf numer 12"
If the concept of the tribe demands things like a rite of passage/test of adulthood and it's written into their clan docs, why would you get stored for doing it? As for whether or not you'd get stored for doing the same thing a d-elf does if you're a Kuraci family member. Well, I certainly hope that you would get stored! D-elves are not the same as Kuraci family members, so why draw a comparison there?
I think, and I'm not sure because there's a language barrier here, that he means if you're in a sponsored role like Kuraci Family, and you're fucking off (I assume either not playing, or not playing to documentation) that you can be stored. But a desert elf would not get stored for not following wandering documentation? Because they... aren't... sponsored roles?
I'm fine with City Elves being proud of their ability to run the streets, and as I've said I've seen some outdoorsy city elves that did a decent job (Sharak was a city elf, and my GOD). I just think, due to their background, having no family to join, no clan, and no clans other than the Byn or Kurac that WOULD hire them, its less about "playing a difficult race" and "playing a race that has more limited places it can go than a mul slave"
IMO the worst parts about city elf are:
1. Very few clans to join
2 Can't play ranger (what many people see as the best guild)
3. No good will from other players
Hopefully #2 will go away with upcoming guild changes, leaving just the social disadvantages. Desert elves get ranger, get a bonus to running, and get a clan of people to play with. Give City Elves some of those things or something equivalent, and they'll see more play. Until then they're just going to be a niche race that has interesting RP options.
Quote from: ghanima on July 13, 2017, 03:41:07 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on July 12, 2017, 08:03:03 PM
I think you get stored for just fucking off. I know for roles like "Kuraci family member" you would, not sure if it counts for Delves as you are signing up for the roll of "Generic delf numer 12"
If the concept of the tribe demands things like a rite of passage/test of adulthood and it's written into their clan docs, why would you get stored for doing it? As for whether or not you'd get stored for doing the same thing a d-elf does if you're a Kuraci family member. Well, I certainly hope that you would get stored! D-elves are not the same as Kuraci family members, so why draw a comparison there?
We are talking about delves here right?
Is there a delf tribe that has a right of passage that involves leaving their lands and exploring?
I'm guessing no, I could be wrong but I feel like it's no.
So you get stored.
You can't make a delf with your own tribe bs.
In fact we're talking about people playing CITY elves, rather primarily.
Also, please re-read your original post that we were responding to, Jihelu, because it was very fragmented and difficult to understand. Related to the concept, however, I don't remember being told that I could not go to some other region on my Vision Quest (for lack of a better term) with a desert elf. Normally they wouldn't WANT to go from the Pah into the Salt Flats for a vision quest, but maybe thats where they were drawn. Maybe they were drawn to the mountains of the Xytrix Za.
But this has little to do with getting people to play more CITY elves, or even explaining why desert elves might "have it better" So what is your point?
Quote from: Riev on July 15, 2017, 02:37:45 PM
In fact we're talking about people playing CITY elves, rather primarily.
Also, please re-read your original post that we were responding to, Jihelu, because it was very fragmented and difficult to understand. Related to the concept, however, I don't remember being told that I could not go to some other region on my Vision Quest (for lack of a better term) with a desert elf. Normally they wouldn't WANT to go from the Pah into the Salt Flats for a vision quest, but maybe thats where they were drawn. Maybe they were drawn to the mountains of the Xytrix Za.
But this has little to do with getting people to play more CITY elves, or even explaining why desert elves might "have it better" So what is your point?
I was just replying to the other guy.
Quote from: Jihelu on July 15, 2017, 02:51:00 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 15, 2017, 02:37:45 PM
In fact we're talking about people playing CITY elves, rather primarily.
Also, please re-read your original post that we were responding to, Jihelu, because it was very fragmented and difficult to understand. Related to the concept, however, I don't remember being told that I could not go to some other region on my Vision Quest (for lack of a better term) with a desert elf. Normally they wouldn't WANT to go from the Pah into the Salt Flats for a vision quest, but maybe thats where they were drawn. Maybe they were drawn to the mountains of the Xytrix Za.
But this has little to do with getting people to play more CITY elves, or even explaining why desert elves might "have it better" So what is your point?
I was just replying to the other guy.
Its not a disparagement, just that comment you made was hard to follow and might need to be reworded.
There are a hundred reasons a d-elf might leave their territory which are all legit and probably happen within the PC community alone daily. From scouting to hunting exotic prey to searching for much needed resources.
If you're just cruising the entire game world for fun with no real purpose in mind I can see how that might put you on staff radar. But in my experience if you're actually RPing your exploration no one really cares. After all, you're not playing a Kuraci family member or something like that, so have at it!
There's nothing stopping you from playing out the elvish penchant for wandering as long as it's executed properly.
And this works for city-elves too, as I've mentioned a few have joined the T'zai Byn and been relatively successful. They're still a burden with having to stop, tent, buy them travelling clothes, etc etc... but I can remember a semi-recent event where I had a pair of elves working for me and it was absolutely amazing. Both of them were spectacular to have around.
I enjoy playing c-elves in the Byn because often I have to unexpectedly drop what I am doing and leave, and you can't do that while on escorts or god forbid something more important. Once you get to trooper, you are expected to start making money for the byn, but a c-elf can reasonably be expected to just stay in the compound, or stay in the compound save for Storm escorts. Often they're at a strength potential where they can train new recruits and take that unwanted burden off of others. The thing is, I think many bynners want humans, dwarves and giants for their strength potential and those grevious hits. If you get an elf, its a lot harder to get there.
I always though c-elves made great witches of certain kinds, but I swear to god I haven't seen a c-elf mage since Tears. I think people don't want to be walking around with a level of discrimination that invites people to kill them on the street if they can get away with it.
I play c-elf gickers but ungemmed. Rinth c-elves can be fun. They lack the sheer agency the Guild does in comparison though, which is unfortunate.
Quote from: Cind on July 18, 2017, 02:13:06 AM
I always though c-elves made great witches of certain kinds, but I swear to god I haven't seen a c-elf mage since Tears. I think people don't want to be walking around with a level of discrimination that invites people to kill them on the street if they can get away with it.
I pretty much just assumed that moving gickery to subguilds meant way more people were just secretly gicks because it's way easier to hide now. Tears is the last Celf with a gem that I remember as well.
Nothing says 'Fuck the system' like a c-elf rogue witch.
The main reason I want to see a bunch of people playing c-elves is mostly for the vibes and such.
The world would feel poorer, more desperate, and more like the city really is overrun with elves, the destitute, and people who need luck and brains to survive, if there were 3-5 elves around for every five humans.
But a lot of the conflict, and a lot of the goodies are in the 1%, which with the closing of the Jaxa Pah is all human (a lot of people would say they are not 1%, but I wouldn't tell them to their face, which makes them that for me.) Unless someone comes up with something brilliant, things will probably stay as they are, and that's not totally a bad thing.
But what would actually happen if there -were- four or five c-elves for every human? You'd be replacing one unrepresentative situation for another. Instead of nine humans and a giant all with silver spoons in their mouth at the bar, three of whom can beat any fucker in the world in a straight fight, you'd have five of those humans and five elves--- those humans still having silver spoons, and three of the elves as well. The other two elves would be extremely short-lived creatures whose sole goal is to provide a thrill before dying at the hands of soldiers. Those poor humans, those poor elves, who don't know what a jail cell looks like and don't know what Oash wine taste like, are the sole realm of me, because I'm the only one who plays them. Apart from the stablemucking job which can support a single individual that plays a lot, there isn't something coded for those people inside the city. You can play a tavern waitress for a while, but eventually you're going to have to switch to something that pays in real money or real food.
The point sounded better in my head, but I guess what I'm saying is the playerbase doesn't need to be representative for us to have a good time. It might actually be better off not being so.
Also: reopen the Jaxa Pah, everyone wins.
Jaxa Pah reopening has been the clarion call for c-elves for so long, and its never worked.
Has staff ever given a reason as to why there are no city-elf tribes? Is it because elves, as a whole, struggle to work together in a trusting relationship the way humans do? Because I'm pretty sure humans fuck up every relationship they're in one way or another.
Is there a reason people shit on elves when they see one, despite the fact that virtually there are a lot more of them you can't see? Yes. Because you don't see virtual elves in the background, ready to throw some knobby elbows at you for picking on one of their own.
We don't need a LOT of city elves, but we could stand to not drop an H-Bomb on them when they appear because "that's what we're supposed to do"
Quote from: Riev on July 24, 2017, 10:12:01 AM
Jaxa Pah reopening has been the clarion call for c-elves for so long, and its never worked.
What do you mean by "it's never worked?"
Quote from: Synthesis on July 24, 2017, 11:32:16 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 24, 2017, 10:12:01 AM
Jaxa Pah reopening has been the clarion call for c-elves for so long, and its never worked.
What do you mean by "it's never worked?"
"Its never worked" meaning we've been calling for it for years, and its never happened.
QuoteHas staff ever given a reason as to why there are no city-elf tribes?
From my conversations, what I've gleaned (and it may only be a single staffer's opinion, or not the prime reason) is that elven clans have that deep loyalty even in cases where it's not necessarily earned, which I can understand. Unless it was changed after my time there, the Jaxa Pah was supposed to be a conglomeration of city elf tribes with inherent levels of equal trust and distrust according to situation...but instead, people played it as a super unified group that never had to question each other, which made it a power block that wasn't intended.
That is subject to my own interpretation and not explicitly stated. I can see the conundrum, but I also see it as one easily worked around. My personal opinion is that elves are a project; they require maintenance and oversight from someone who's actually interested in elves, and I'm not sure any of the current staff are actually interested in it.
QuoteWhat do you mean by "it's never worked?"
I think he means we've been asking for it for a long time, and it's never been a request that's been fulfilled.
I'm at the point where I, someone who has always hated the idea of staffing the game because of how it would change my enjoyment, am about to put in an application that just says 'gimme all da elf stuffs and I'll build stuffs'.
As someone who played in Jaxa Pah. I'd say that whole 'trust bloc' never really happened.
Jaxa Pah was often plagued by internal strife. Sometimes erroneously and against theme. I dont know why they dont have JP open, but I played a few characters in it and it "always" "always" "always" felt odd to play there.
You cant recruit people like you can with the Guild. People did it anyway, but it felt ... against theme. The Jaxa Pah backstory and setting needs to be fine tuned to allow for smoother recruitment.
Out of 3 characters that I played in Jaxa Pah. 2 were recruited in. One killed a "fellow" tribe member and quit the tribe in order to prevent a massive split of tribe itself between pro-gickers and anti-gickers. Second had a backstory of being from a tribe of elves that survived by sending young tribesmates to infiltrate other tribes and leech resources for their real tribe. Third one was special apped straight into their highest tier tribe itself and he was indeed loyal, but got eaten by spiders.
The whole 'elves are loyal to each other' thing stings so much, too. It's the damn point.
What did you expect? For players not to pick up on tribal loyalty being very strong? Half-giants have their musculature going for them, so we give them high STR scores. Humans have a monopoly on all of society's important jobs, so they can join high status clans and attain good ranks. Elves are fiercely loyal to each other, so we.. Don't let them play in tribes because that's kinda strong.
What if you had a 'lesser' southside tribe, a relatively small one that only had a quit room and a food dispenser to its name (who only gave out crappy food, get your own water.)
People wouldn't feel much of a need to squash it, and it could make itself useful by smuggling spice to importants or something. Being southside would make dealing with them more palatable to people and they'd be able to do more.
Someone you could join at chargen, or just do your whole loner or vnpc tribe thing again.
Quote from: Cind on July 24, 2017, 10:15:46 PM
People wouldn't feel much of a need to squash it...
My real sense is that players always want to squash something. Elves are universally accepted as the thing it's ok to squash, even if, in reality that one thing should be breeds. But, unlike elves, breeds can be widely useful to the rest of the playerbase, so they're mocked, and hired, and put to good use.
It's open season on elves. So... it doesn't matter how many the elf tribe is, unless there are several at the same time, the elves will get targeted.
I think Celves should be granted a racial skill of journeyman sneak and hide regardless of guild. can't smash what you can't see!
Jman sneak and hide is pointless.
I played one of the stealth extended subguilds (sneak and hide capped at advanced) with a c-elf and the failure rate was basically only good enough to fool NPCs.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 25, 2017, 01:24:43 PM
Jman sneak and hide is pointless.
I played one of the stealth extended subguilds (sneak and hide capped at advanced) with a c-elf and the failure rate was basically only good enough to fool NPCs.
Opposite of my experience, where I start having a hard time getting the skill to go up at the end of jman because elven agility makes the sneak and hide succeed so reliably.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 25, 2017, 01:29:25 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 25, 2017, 01:24:43 PM
Jman sneak and hide is pointless.
I played one of the stealth extended subguilds (sneak and hide capped at advanced) with a c-elf and the failure rate was basically only good enough to fool NPCs.
Opposite of my experience, where I start having a hard time getting the skill to go up at the end of jman because elven agility makes the sneak and hide succeed so reliably.
With vgood c-elf agility stealth was trash at advanced. I think maybe we just have different ideas about what constitutes trash. I'd guess that about 20-25% of the time, hide still abjectly failed. Most of the time it didn't work against any primary guild with 'scan.' Running tests against NPCs, I could sneak+hide maybe 2 or 3 rooms about 75% of the time, but farther than that the success rate dropped off dramatically.
None of this was good enough to be really useful. Yeah, you could probably sneak into a room, steal something, then sneak out, but you wouldn't be able to stand around hidden. And if you got caught southside, trying to get past NPC guards was so extremely risky that most of the time it wasn't worth it.
Like I said in a previous thread a long time ago, the only really useful thing about it was that I could trick guild-sniffers into thinking I was a noob burglar because my stealth skills were obviously failing so much, then give them an oh shit moment when I wrecked them in melee.
Quote from: Dar on July 24, 2017, 11:56:12 AM
As someone who played in Jaxa Pah. I'd say that whole 'trust bloc' never really happened.
Jaxa Pah was often plagued by internal strife. Sometimes erroneously and against theme. I dont know why they dont have JP open, but I played a few characters in it and it "always" "always" "always" felt odd to play there.
You cant recruit people like you can with the Guild. People did it anyway, but it felt ... against theme. The Jaxa Pah backstory and setting needs to be fine tuned to allow for smoother recruitment.
Out of 3 characters that I played in Jaxa Pah. 2 were recruited in. One killed a "fellow" tribe member and quit the tribe in order to prevent a massive split of tribe itself between pro-gickers and anti-gickers. Second had a backstory of being from a tribe of elves that survived by sending young tribesmates to infiltrate other tribes and leech resources for their real tribe. Third one was special apped straight into their highest tier tribe itself and he was indeed loyal, but got eaten by spiders.
I think I've played three PCs in the Jaxa Pah or one of its constituent clans.
Two were wildly successful. The third died prematurely doing something silly.
The only serious within-clan drama occurred when Staff made a particular decision that led to us having to gank a couple of PCs.
At any rate, I think the reason that they don't open it up is because the JP don't have any reason for being, so it eventually devolves into power-struggle griefing. A couple of c-elf assassins with decent stats at peak time can be so completely dominant in the 'rinth that it essentially takes Staff intervention to restore balance.
QuoteWith vgood c-elf agility stealth was trash at advanced. I think maybe we just have different ideas about what constitutes trash. I'd guess that about 20-25% of the time, hide still abjectly failed. Most of the time it didn't work against any primary guild with 'scan.' Running tests against NPCs, I could sneak+hide maybe 2 or 3 rooms about 75% of the time, but farther than that the success rate dropped off dramatically.
Again, this is opposite of my experience. Very opposite. Elven agility has stymied my progress past advanced constantly. So I think you're projecting numbers that aren't there.
QuoteAt any rate, I think the reason that they don't open it up is because the JP don't have any reason for being, so it eventually devolves into power-struggle griefing. A couple of c-elf assassins with decent stats at peak time can be so completely dominant in the 'rinth that it essentially takes Staff intervention to restore balance.
This power-struggle griefing is what I call the struggle for relevance, and it occurs to almost every clan in the game (albeit the 'rinth is where it turns into violence more readily). All 'rinth groups end up suffering through it, the difference being that only one of them is static and thus survives every conflict, and that is actually what's led to a serious, perpetual imbalance there over a long period of time that is not reflective of the 'rinthi world.
I don't demand the Jaxa Pah back, though I disagree that they have no reason to be there. By the standard you're setting, only one group should ever be doing one thing (which is anti-conflict), or they should all be equally not there because their role is arbitrarily made. I do, however, think city elf presence is something that needs to be acknowledged as a very large part of the in-city world. Currently, as whitt noted, it is purely a pariah race to all, rather than just an oppressed race by the state, and keeps all the anti-clan rules and conventions from a time when city-elf clans were active.
Quote from: Cind on July 24, 2017, 10:15:46 PM
People wouldn't feel much of a need to squash it
lol
Any organisation that lets pickpockets do their thing is public enemy no. 1
.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 25, 2017, 03:23:37 PM
QuoteWith vgood c-elf agility stealth was trash at advanced. I think maybe we just have different ideas about what constitutes trash. I'd guess that about 20-25% of the time, hide still abjectly failed. Most of the time it didn't work against any primary guild with 'scan.' Running tests against NPCs, I could sneak+hide maybe 2 or 3 rooms about 75% of the time, but farther than that the success rate dropped off dramatically.
Again, this is opposite of my experience. Very opposite. Elven agility has stymied my progress past advanced constantly. So I think you're projecting numbers that aren't there.
QuoteAt any rate, I think the reason that they don't open it up is because the JP don't have any reason for being, so it eventually devolves into power-struggle griefing. A couple of c-elf assassins with decent stats at peak time can be so completely dominant in the 'rinth that it essentially takes Staff intervention to restore balance.
This power-struggle griefing is what I call the struggle for relevance, and it occurs to almost every clan in the game (albeit the 'rinth is where it turns into violence more readily). All 'rinth groups end up suffering through it, the difference being that only one of them is static and thus survives every conflict, and that is actually what's led to a serious, perpetual imbalance there over a long period of time that is not reflective of the 'rinthi world.
I don't demand the Jaxa Pah back, though I disagree that they have no reason to be there. By the standard you're setting, only one group should ever be doing one thing (which is anti-conflict), or they should all be equally not there because their role is arbitrarily made. I do, however, think city elf presence is something that needs to be acknowledged as a very large part of the in-city world. Currently, as whitt noted, it is purely a pariah race to all, rather than just an oppressed race by the state, and keeps all the anti-clan rules and conventions from a time when city-elf clans were active.
*shrug*
We can go back-and-forth about what we experienced in-game all day without resolving anything. So...whatever. For what it's worth, I'm so thoroughly convinced that I'd never roll a stealth extended subguild without having a stealth primary to piggyback on. At any rate, I highly doubt you -honestly- had trouble getting past advanced, because I've played a whooooole lot of city-elf assassins over the years, and they all branched from sneak and hide within 5 or 6 days. So I mean...unless something has changed dramatically in the last several years since I've played one, I'm not sure what to tell you.
As to the rest: the Jaxa Pah is just there because it's there. I'm not really condemning that. Personally, I'd be fine with opening it merely as a flavor role--to allow players to play a role that fills in a part of the game's universe, regardless of whether it's arbirtrary or not (everything in a fantasy world is purely arbitrary, if you want to get reductionist about it), other things being equal. Unfortunately,
ceteris paribus doesn't apply, because it only takes a few active JP to completely change 'rinth dynamics.
My personal guess about Staff discussions is that city-elves statistically are so good at miscellaneous griefing that giving them a safe space in close proximity to the places where the griefing occurs contributes vastly more to negative than positive experiences in terms of playerbase satisfaction. When you combine excellence at miscellaneous griefing with having nothing organic to do...griefing becomes the default. People start getting pickpocketed or burglarized for no other reason than ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I'm not being hypocritical here: I freely admit that I engaged in the same behavior, because it takes a huge amount of self-control not to engage in it as a young adult. Rash had AI agility as a pickpocket, and I kept on mercilessly stealing people's shit even with 20k sitting in the bank, just because I could. And sure, there are a lot of things in the game that get done for no better reason than that, but there are very few such things that actively enrage most players. Nobody cares if you generate 20,000 'sid from scrab leg sales. If you generate 20,000 from stealing people's back-up knives and mount tickets, it will kick off IC and OOC crusades. And sure, human pickpockets and burglars can be pretty good, but there isn't a single human clan in the game where, if you get caught picking pockets or locks, they'll give you a big ol' clap on the back and a "well done," so you have to meticulously plan and target heists, or eventually your nuts will get crushed. With the JP, that counterbalance doesn't exist until your shenanigans get so outrageous that someone on Staff gives you a permanent crimflag (I didn't get one until I stole Samos's keyring and magick sword). So: on the one hand, I can make an argument that I, myself, probably would no longer abuse the privilege, because I'm 36 years old, with 18 years into the game, so maturity and experience (usually) give me a good idea of where to draw the line; on the other hand, I also know what that sort of blank check leads to when you -don't- have maturity and experience.
I agree with you that the typical state of affairs in the 'rinth is not accurately represented without the JP being open. However, until there is some sort of effective balance--which would, I believe, be facilitated by giving them a reason for being beyond "we're here, we have long ears, get used to it"--the game probably is better off without them being open. The 'rinth certainly is not any fun when the East and West have "gone to the mattresses" and any noob PC who rolls into the 'rinth without access to a clan safehouse gets mercilessly ganked for no other reason other than they -might- be recruited for the other side.
That being said, a "reason for being" probably isn't sufficient to balance griefing vs. satisfaction in a stable equilibrium. There also needs to be some set of rules or documentation regarding appropriate JP behavior, and there needs to be a set of known and predictable consequences for that behavior, so punishment can't simply be dismissed as "Staff favoritism." Until that happens, I doubt anyone on the Staff team wants to take on the burden of dealing with all the miscellaneous bitching that a crew of elves with a safehouse inside the city is inevitably going to gin up.
I've thought a few times that the stealing-is-necessary part seemed like one of the parts that could use the most overhaul (and I've played maybe three pickpockets, one of which died on day one and the third of which didn't pick pockets.) If you had stealing still be a good thing for an elf to engage in, but -not necessary-, I wonder what would happen to the elf/everyone else dynamic and the numbers of city elves. For one thing, you wouldn't be called batshit crazy for wanting to allow for exceptional elves in your group, or wanting elves because you can't find anyone else willing to do your work for you.
Making the number one OOC griefer fuel the one thing elves must do at some point and repeatedly seems to me to defeat the purpose of having a race people will play.
I love the stealing psychology. They think different about being stolen from and about stealing, the possession of items and whose hands they are in. Don't remove that.
I've always preferred the rationale that the "stealing" mentality is more about "getting one over on all the other races that look down on us". Purposefully miscounting so you give someone 98 instead of 100 coins (its amazing how fast PCs can count when its UNDER 100, but if you give them 102 they pocket it no problem...), or making a trade deal that is more in your favor than theirs. Sure, elves get steal and there's nothing like the rush of stealing someone's mount ticket when they were throwing shade at the entire elven race, but there should always be other ways.
Though, Synth is right. Anyone with steal is going to become a griefer, whether they want to or not. PCs go through insane steps to avoid being stolen from despite pickpockets being in the rare minority. And if you feel that an elf HAS to steal, you become worse than a raider, because every clan in the game will come after you. And thats just if people are being stolen from, nevermind the people that will come after you because "its not like there are other elves around to worry about". Not all elves stick together, but they stick together better than humans do, and if one is being threatened BECAUSE he's an elf, I'm sure another couple elves would have no trouble throwing elbows and knives at the guy next time he's at the stables. But it doesn't happen, so elves have absolutely no backup, and as a 0-karma race I feel that they should have some sort of virtual manner of escape, at least.
Once again:
(http://imgur.com/a/UG5vQ)
Riev clearly knows what he's talking about, but I'd like to add some points from my own experience playing multiple thieves.
1. Twinking is your friend. If you can't hide, don't screw around in public. Work on your skills in private until you're good enough to not fail most the time before you start touching other players, IF you want to remain unknown as a thief. Remember Fagin and his school for pickpockets in "Oliver Twist"? Yeah, that.
2. It's not always necessary to be unknown as a thief. Being known as a BAD thief sucks, but being known as a very good thief is a different matter altogether. All those packs and pouches that suddenly slam shut when you walk into the Gaj is a sign of respect. Everyone needs a thief and you will have job offers out the wazoo.
3. Pick your targets wisely. However tempting that aide's stuff might be, or that fancy knife on the Arm sergeant's belt, you're much better off nicking from that independent guy with no friends. When he goes to complain to the Arm that someone nicked his scrab claw skinning knife, they SHOULD just laugh at him.
4. Avoid certain character types. Seriously. There are some characters, mostly mudsex related types, who will cause an inordinate amount of drama if you mess with them in any way. Half of the playerbase will suddenly white knight and jump on their gleaming white stallions to make your life a living hell. If you have the power to kill a couple of those white knights, then it can be fun. If you don't, then avoid the mudsexer as a victim. (Caveat: Some of those white knights who will ride out against you are sponsored roles and high power leadership types. You will lose if you go against them.)
5. Wear a facewrap and call out bad roleplay. If you fail out on the street at night with your pickpocket or sap attempt, your victim is going to run to the nearest Arm militia and give them your whole description. You can't exactly IC tell the Arm guard, "they couldn't have known it was me because I was wearing a facewrap" but you can wish up and let staff know that IC they would have no way of knowing it's you. The Arm may still hassle you if a tall person in a facewrap is sapping people and you're the only elf around, but that's an IC event that can be handled IC. Giving your complete description despite your facewrap is bullshit roleplay and should be called out. I never did that and I wish I had. It would have saved me a lot of problems.
6. Most of the flak you will face can be avoided if you've laid low until your sneak/hide is pretty decent. The people of the 'rinth are furtive and sneaky for a reason. Personally I think if you chose that as a starting location you should get a decent skill bump automatically in the same way you get a bonus to chopping in the north or a bonus to slashing in the south. If they can't see you doing your dirty deed, they can't snitch or squash you.
7. It can be helpful to be helpful to the people who COULD squash you. Depending upon who they are and how powerful they are when you roll out of chargen (all power waxes and wanes) then you need to find out who the players are and how competent they are at squishing people. Consider it your recon while you're getting up your sneak and hide skills.
The action-social (thieves, assassins, and other shady city types) are a completely different role than your action-adventurer types (warriors and rangers) or your social-crafter or your social-mudsexer. They require patience and a level of metagame skill (in the good sense of the word) beyond just what you can see on the skillsheet.
But I'd posit this with the fact that there's nothing wrong with starting out your character with the intent to have shit blow up in your face. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Starting out with the intention of causing as much mischief and mayhem in the city as possible before you're finally killed is not the worst thing in the world. It's not particularly griefing (certainly less griefy than those asshats who lure kryl to the road and leave them there to kill newbs) and there's a hundred ways to die in the city that aren't related at all to the social powers and constructs in the game. If you spend 3-5 real weeks providing some content for other players to hunt you down and kill you, then respect, brah. Go out with dignity and grace and they should at least throw you some kudos for saving them from a life of otherwise dreary boredom sitting in the Gaj staring at the same mudsex dolls day after day and listening to the latest news about the upcoming fashion show in our gritty, grimdark universe.
When I last played an elf pickpocket, eons ago, it was one of the most boring experience ever.
I twinked up my steal, sneak and hide skills until I hit master because I knew that the minute someone would just LOOK at me it'd be all over, career and probably life-wise. If people's pouches and weapons start disappearing and they know there's that one elf PC hanging about, no matter where, they'll start sending in the army.
It was so bad at some point that every single time a new elf PC would pop into the game that poor elf PC was automatically accused of all the crimes my own-yet-undiscovered PC was committing. I remember this poor silver-haired elf merchant who was trying every single tricks in the book to be left alone (bribing, buying ales at the Gaj for soldiers, crafting in plain sight to be deemed non-pickpocket'ish by the code-twinks, etc.) but no matter what he was constantly being accused by nearly everyone, including the Lords and Ladies I would hit up at the Red's.
While it was a pretty hilarious role and I was doing mostly all of this for the lulz, it was also an extremely boring role because I practically never interacted with any other PCs during that pickpocket's lifetime, again, because I knew that the minute someone would just LOOK at me, it would be all over for that PC. They even started sending some militia PCs into the 'rinth's tavern to see if they could spot my PC.
I finally died after attempting to palm dung in some Lady's inventory (hey, it worked the first 20 times) and that was probably the first and last time someone got to look at my PC.
These stories are the ones that make me the most upset, because there are so few elf PCs represented, despite the rather LARGE portion of the population that are elves.
So as soon as someone SEES an elf, it must be 'all elves'. But its not like picking on a Salarri, who has friends, or even an indie who has paid off the militia. Its an elf, who cannot call on ANY other elves to help out or do a thing about whatever may be happening.
I have a hard time believing some crafting sharpear in the Gaj is getting bullied and pissed on (sometimes literally) by people, and the group of elves in the corner doesn't get up and say something about it.
Quote from: Riev on July 26, 2017, 11:59:13 AMI have a hard time believing some crafting sharpear in the Gaj is getting bullied and pissed on (sometimes literally) by people, and the group of elves in the corner doesn't get up and say something about it.
Ah, Riev. I love ya, man.
But the vnpc world is there to come alive only to harass or bother you. It's not there to ever help you.
Every, single time I've ever counted on the vnpc world giving me a leg up ... it failed me. Yet when I am idling afk to heal up some wounds or regen movement, the vnpc world suddenly comes alive and tells me to move on or they'll kill me.
Does it sound like I'm being bitter to storytellers there? Maybe a little. I think, from my limited perspective, the problem stems from the storyteller culture where it may be considered bad form to animate for someone else's clan. Your clan storyteller can animate for you, and they'll next be available on Friday from 10pm-11pm CST if you schedule an RPT. But any storyteller feels free to animate at any time for anybody if they observe you doing something that they deem out-of-bounds, EVEN if you've done it a thousand times before.
If you want to play a sneaky, either elf or human, then don't count on the vnpc world to do anything except hinder you.
Even your PC buddies may or may not help you. At the end of the day, it's you, your wits, and your skillsheet. And that may simply not be enough to save you.
And unfortunately, Miradus, that is one of the biggest problems with playing City Elves in general.
Most people that see a Desert Elf in the bar will kind of avoid them the way you should avoid a gemmed, because they look buff/nasty/etc. But a city elf, you KNOW you can do whatever you want and, OOCly? They chose elf, they should expect it.
But I just genuinely don't believe you SHOULD expect some of the reactions you get. I want people calling me names, making me pay an extra small for 'thief's tax' or whatever you want to do to racially discriminate against me. But I also want you to know that there are probably 3 elves watching to make sure you don't take it too far, and as a human you should know you don't want to start a race war.
I remember being in Tuluk, and I think it was Malifaxis that was playing an Akai S'jirr dealer. He, and 2 elf PCs were talking to my human who wanted to buy some stonework or whatever he was doing, and they all pulled weapons on him. In daylight. On a generally used road. And I was PISSED OOCly like "How can they do this to me! They're elves!".
But then I was reminded, that I was surrounded by taller, cloaked humanoid figures, who all were pointing spears at me. Daylight or not, who would've run off and said anything? Would a Legionnaire even have paused to give a shit? And from that point on, I knew that elves are assholes, but fuck do you not want to bother when there's more than one. So? Now we kill and pester and molest them until there IS ONLY one visible.
There's nothing wrong with emoting out a casual and occasional hint that there are other elves around. I tend to do it on my humans whenever I antagonize a PC elf, so they don't feel picked on completely. Nothing over the top, and certainly nothing that would benefit your PC, but if someone needs a gentle reminder that there are virtual elves at the bar, I don't see anything wrong with that.
Two things to remember:
(1) Elves distrust each other, unless they are in your tribe. It isn't clear to me if they dislike each other MORE than they dislike humans in general, but I'd imagine there's a spectrum. So, while you can assume humans will dogpile an elf for the lulz, you can't exactly assume that a random elf will help you out.
(2) For sure, species-ism against elves should take the virtual documented world in account. You can beat a breed with little IC consequences, but if you beat down on an elf, you should at least toss out some feels that his or her tribemates might just beat you down later. Moreover, at least according to those old population charts, there's like, what, 2% of the population is breed, so don't expect any consequences there, but 30-40% of Allanak is elf, even if they are oppressed -- so don't just assume that's the only elf at the bar. (There's echoes too in the Gaj of groups of elves.)
That said, my observations tip the other direction: people tend to lean more towards 'making friends' than being bigoted assholes around strangers. Moar bigotry.
You know how gickers are used by the Arm?
Make elves be used by the Arm as a tradition, to steal and murder and such. Hey, if they're caught, only the elf goes down, right?
It wouldn't fix everything but gickers partially survive because they are useful. Make elves useful too, but make them useful to pcs, and not just the world in general.
Elves are plenty useful to PCs. There were plenty of examples of elves that were known to serve Templars and had a good amount of influence due to it. Elves are not unemployable. It's just a lot harder then it is for a human. This is not an easy race. But it's not an impossible race.
QuoteMake elves be used by the Arm as a tradition, to steal and murder and such. Hey, if they're caught, only the elf goes down, right?
It wouldn't fix everything but gickers partially survive because they are useful. Make elves useful too, but make them useful to pcs, and not just the world in general.
Elves are highly employable by other PC's, as Dar said. Clans don't want them. People within clans should. Not as a clanmate, but as someone useful.
That's not just the Arm. That's pretty much everyone. That's right now, not a change that needs to be made, just something that more people need to realize.
Getting people to realize they can use criminals rather than hunt them to the ends of the earth??
that's CRAZY TALK
Quote from: Dar on July 27, 2017, 10:42:38 AM
Elves are plenty useful to PCs. There were plenty of examples of elves that were known to serve Templars and had a good amount of influence due to it. Elves are not unemployable. It's just a lot harder then it is for a human. This is not an easy race. But it's not an impossible race.
Nobody has said they are impossible. In fact, the discussion is how to encourage people to play MORE (city) elves.
Elves are employable, but often not employed. A master electrician is employable, but not if he lives on a remote island without power. City elves have plenty of marketable skills but they aren't really able to be social, because the virtual world struggles to keep up with their representation.
Someone playing an elf knows they are lowdown dirty scum, and people are likely to treat them that way. If they don't, they shouldn't be playing an elf because they didn't read. However, to me, its not how elves are treated in game, its how the GAME treats them. No clans or groups that will hire you. No family or tribe without a special application and a role call allowed by staff. It makes it sound like it should be a sponsored-role Family Call for any city-elf that is considered! And when you throw on top of that, the fact that people say "Just play in this one sphere populated mostly by people with maximum hide (if at all) and maybe they'll talk to you" sounds an awful lot like "Don't play near me, go solo play and hope someone joins you".
Its tough to be an elf, and we should figure out how to at least make them feel more accessible to players. It feels like the race relies on veterans to play, and/or OOC communication along the lines of "Lets all play elves".
QuoteSomeone playing an elf knows they are lowdown dirty scum, and people are likely to treat them that way. If they don't, they shouldn't be playing an elf because they didn't read.
I'd strongly suggest against this viewpoint, because it turns into stereotypical villain roleplay that...well...-necessitates- some of the reactions that are currently discussed (though not the original point of the thread). If you slink around looking like a cutthroat, you'll be treated like one.
Instead, I'd suggest taking a look at the ideals of elven roleplay and making them actual ideals rather than, as you said, thinking of yourself as a scumbag. Make your elf into a hero unto himself, where those treating you like shit are the scum of the earth, not you. It results in a lot clearer racial boundaries, but it also makes you strive against the oppression in very different (and more elf-like, in my opinion) ways.
And when I say 'you', I'm speaking to the reader who may want to play an elf, not you Riev. You're quoted just because this is one of those things I notice with some people who try out elves, is that they go full-fledged into the human stereotype of elves rather than just playing the elf.
WTF ARMADDICT U WANNA FITE
Nah, I get it man. And, yeah I suppose you're right. There's got to be difference between "What an elf is" and "what a human thinks an elf is".
There is such a disparity between "help elf" and "help city elf roleplay" that its almost staggering. There's so much documentation there that could stand to be condensed in SOME way.
It also mentions in the RP file that elven tribes basically automatically trust each other, and I wonder if this is why they don't work when PCs are involved?
Also for note:
QuoteTo an elf, theft is: "Taking anything that would not be given if the possessor knew all of the facts."
There's trust and then there's trust.
There's "I trust you to help me break into this apartment and we'll split the loot."
Which is completely different from, "I'm going to show you where I stash all my loot and sleep at night."
Look at crime movies where you've got a whole series of different people working together, few trust each other, and there's a good deal of either worry about doublecrossing or actual doublecrossing going on.
The intimation in the Help Files suggests that elves IN A TRIBE, implicitly trust each other. Its ANYONE outside the Tribe that is met with Trust Tests and other such things.
I wonder if there's been issues with being "part of a Tribe where trust is implicit" and then people were betraying it, because Arm? Or because a group of implicit, full trusted individuals is not really in place in Zalanthas?
Quote from: Riev on July 27, 2017, 12:18:16 PM
The intimation in the Help Files suggests that elves IN A TRIBE, implicitly trust each other. Its ANYONE outside the Tribe that is met with Trust Tests and other such things.
I wonder if there's been issues with being "part of a Tribe where trust is implicit" and then people were betraying it, because Arm? Or because a group of implicit, full trusted individuals is not really in place in Zalanthas?
Most epic scene I ever saw was where a trusting, spiritually devoted individual was betrayed and disillusioned by the powers that they worshipped. In the last few moments of that character, there was a genuine confusion, betrayed hurt, and horror displayed in a few emotes.
More of that please.
I have an idea. Two elf clans. Let's call them Clan 1 and Clan 2.
Clan 1 has a seedy quit room, a maxxed-out burglar npc in that room, a maxxed-out assassin and a maxxed-out pickpocket. Each of these can be animated at will and sent to get vengeance when some silver-spoon human goes too far, and they will be copied and replaced on the next reboot, as is the wont of npcs. Perhaps staff would even send out two or three at once. Typical crime-dependent elven clan. The picture of a stereotype and proud of it. A few mats, and a table to talk about shady stuff at.
Clan 2 has a basic, underfurnished quit room, a maxxed-out pickpocket npc, a maxxed-out burglar npc and a food dispenser that will hand out a chalton steak to clan members twice a month, like how clannies get paid twice a month. Has a civil relationship with Clan 1 but isn't above screwing them over for a quick buck. Different subculture than Clan 1 and not as poor. Less criminally-inclined. May be seen as less powerful in general solely due to the lack of an always-available max assassin, but they can still get into your apartment and smear shit over all your stuff. Could probably emphasize this idea by making them a smaller clan numerically.
Something like that, especially with one clan having a heavier emphasis on crime than the other. A part of Clan 1's survival strategy is to sell spice to the Arm or Kadius or something at a good price. As a rule, these elves would not touch said clan. Clan 2 might be more into mercantile things or mercenary things, and may have a habit of sending its younger members to the Byn for a year. They would not avoid grubbing at any clan in particular. Stuff like that. Clans that people can choose at chargen, which -will- be backed up by staff if a semi-newbie decides to get fiery and arrowy with a tribemate repeatedly for no reason.
(I can't stay on webpages for some reason so I didn't read every single new thing. This is mostly a post about giving elves some form of real backup people will fear.)
Quote from: Delirium on July 27, 2017, 10:54:02 AM
Getting people to realize they can use criminals rather than hunt them to the ends of the earth??
that's CRAZY TALK
;D ;D
+1 right here.
Here's the rub though ...
You've got to kill some people SOMETIME or we're all just playing digital dolls here. A body on the pile puts skin in the game. Everyone knows it's for keeps.
Kill this one. Maim the next three. Kill another one after a long-drawn out plot.
There are times when a story arc has just run its course and someone needs to die to close that loop. Death is a thing here. Make it count when it happens, and wring that drama out of the scene. We can practice catch-and-release quite a bit, but SOMETIMES that trophy catch needs to be mounted on the wall.
Part of it, and it's something I haven't mastered, is knowing who is who and how they are connected. If someone seems like they've got a lot of irons in the fire and they're on their way up, I don't really want to kill them. I want to see where they go. But if it's someone I know is on their downhill run, then I want to be there to smoothly help them with their transition to the next character. With a glorious death.
Then there's what I'd consider sort of the elephant in the room ...
Some people think they're untouchable. They're not playing the same game ... they're in a text based chat room where they can say and do whatever they want. Which would be fine, mostly, except there are stories going on here. THOSE are the people I find particularly need to have consequences delivered down upon them. They make the best examples.
Oh, yes, beat and kill elves all you want. I'm just saying that I'd like to see a staffer who reads Clan 1's bios and character reports once a week and decides about once every four months to animate the npc assassin and go wreck up some shit. Clan 2, if you noticed, wouldn't have an assassin, but they'd have someone who could nick a noble's favorite book and junk it.
Oh, nevermind, you were responding to Rokal.
Seriously, you'd have maybe a single staffer heading each of the two elf clans, or one staffer who would read the bios and animate for both clans. Maybe their default relationship wouldn't be set in stone--- hate one year, kanking each other the next. Fighting over who gets to keep a clan 1 and clan 2 baby. Maybe clan 2 treats its gemmed better than clan 1.
They wouldn't animate the lingering badasses often, and things such as throwing a mug at a tribemate's head might and probably will get overlooked. But the threat would always be there, and that's what would change things, and help not to make it feel like you're the only elf in the city, because now you aren't.
I absolutely dislike the concept of a staff animated killer assassin lurking around. First of all, you KNOW it's going to be overpowered. Someone on the receiving end of a staff-animated backstab that leaves them at Mantis-head is going to be pissed off. I know I would be. Second, you also know they're going to go after Grebber Gus who used the brawl code on an elf last week and isn't remotely connected to anyone or any plot rather than some sponsored role who has systematically abused and murdered elves for the past month.
But I do like the idea of staff getting involved a little bit. For instance, there are a few elves about most of the time. If you animated an elder who comes up to that young elf PLAYER assassin and says, "We have noticed your progress and we think you could be useful. Let me teach you a little more about backstab, oh, and here's a sack with some terradin." Or even just an elven child who whispers in the ear of a player elf, "That mean roundear with the bad haircut just went into apartment #3 with that big-boobed aide."
You can't have a war with a staff animated NPC because it's going to be parked in some imm-room waiting for the storyteller to show up. But giving a little help to players who are clearly the underdog isn't a bad idea.
Honestly, at times, I'd be fine if a staff who is watching a scene that involves a city elf (maybe a staff who focuses a bit more on them in the Indy Group?) just animates the room a bit to show that there's more than that one elf getting picked on.
It doesn't happen often, and staff aren't ALWAYS watching, but it'd be nice if 2-3 drunk Bynners are picking on an elf who hasn't done anything (yet), and the room animates that "The group of elves at the corner table have stopped talking, and four of them are now staring at the altercation with interest". Something to remind you that you're picking on "the other half" not "the only other guy"
QuoteI absolutely dislike the concept of a staff animated killer assassin lurking around. First of all, you KNOW it's going to be overpowered.
Historically speaking, this is part of the game that is used for people who ignore the game world, i.e. People who went to go on 'elf hunts' consistently, sooner or later, found themselves staring at an elf npc who was directly sent by the rest of the elven community. Or a guild mul, when someone just pretends that only the Guild PC's matter. Or a soldier who normally doesn't move, but consistent kills near it, and it so it 'happens' across your crime one of those times that you repeat it.
I haven't seen this done for eastside elves in a long time, but in other areas of the game it's already present. If Nolaz the elf were to show up like days of yore to pick at his teeth and stinkeye an elf hunter and say, 'You ain't here for business, which makes you my business now', I'd have no complaints, because the number of people who treat the 'rinth as happy hunting grounds is frankly ridiculous.
Generally, those NPCs that get animated are to show the virtual power of the clans (not always). Like when people disrespect the Guild because they "only have like 1 PC around" or "I'm going to shit on Salarr because their PC merchant doesn't play when I do so she can't retaliate".
I just think simple echoes would be nice reminders to the 'dregs' that mistake elves for breeds, thinking "there aren't many around and they won't do anything anyway"
It is natural to want to improve ones' standing during one's play. But do you 'reaaaaaally' want to strengthen the celves? Look at the breeds. They are the ones who should be thematically picked upon and already a lot of people choose not to do it. Mainly due to the sheer usefulness breeds tend to have.
Do you really want to increase the 'danger' of picking on an elf and by that discourage people from ... picking on elves? There are too many people out there who already play nicey nice with 'everything'. On account of that being more profitable, safer, and more useful way of behaving oneself. Do you really want to add one more benefit to being non-confrontational?
Yes. Sometimes, people tend to ignore the virual world by picking on elves. But you know what? Just play elves better and bring that virtual world to life more and others will follow suit. I personally think that being picked on, is one of the celves character traits. And desire to avoid that is akin to a dwarven desire to not have a focus.
Just own it. Rock it. Rule it. Make it awesome. Celves are a difficult role. Celves are Armageddon in Hardmode. So just pwn it, or stick to easy mode game.
Make a vendor who sells poisons, cures, picks, super cheap spice, maybe some spellcasting junk and fancy decks of cards -- but only to c-elves. No hoops to jump through for the player. You just have to be an elf.
Heh. Ironically, one such vendor used to exist, but they made JP only. Weirdness.
Quote from: number13 on August 02, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
Make a vendor who sells poisons, cures, picks, super cheap spice, maybe some spellcasting junk and fancy decks of cards -- but only to c-elves. No hoops to jump through for the player. You just have to be an elf.
Quote from: Dar on August 02, 2017, 04:07:16 PM
Heh. Ironically, one such vendor used to exist, but they made JP only. Weirdness.
Part of one of my other posts. There are actually two vendors that used to have city elf or city-elf clan boons. One was closed off entirely to everyone via over-time removal of clans, the other was made into just a typical vendor rather than one that gave a specific group a boon. Also noted, elves used to be the most reliable influx of most contraband (excepting spice) due to elven connections and the elven proclivity for business and deals (material goods are the best way to make coin without affording any loyalty or service to the buyer).
I have no idea if this is out of pure negligence, laziness, or some sort of actual plan, but if it's part of plan, it's one that very slowly, over time, cut out elven resources, which I will totally pound my fist on my desk over. Very seriously. Very sternly. Yus. Scary face.
Getting taints and contraband etc. is one of the more enjoyable things to do with an elf. I think an NPC vendor would ruin that part. That said, perhaps a little /easier/ (OOCly) access to the tablelands / Red Storm might encourage more elfs-are-black-market opportunities with PCs. Imagine an elf-only tunnel to Red Storm or the Tablelands? Trading with your long lost cousins the SRs for taints and booze... Being an asset to the spice trade...
QuoteI think an NPC vendor would ruin that part.
That isn't to say most poisons came from the vendor. Simple poisons came from there. An armsheath, back when they were 'neato' items. A couple other odds and ends.
However, having a shop that traded in those sorts of goods (i.e. Selling -and- buying) and was elf only reinforced the elven market. I don't recall if the herbalist bought such things at that time.
I remember the elfy vendor. I also remember having to join a clan to get access to it, and that getting membership required a staff member to give a couple of us some fun plot stuff to do before it could happen...and that my character died horribly to a twinked out [redacted] a couple RL days after the staff member went to all that trouble.
It should just be a vendor who sells and buys stuff from elves that other players might want, so that c-elves can fulfill the role of black market merchants. The point isn't get bloodburn on every elf blade, but to give them a in-road for interacting with the rest of Allanak in a fun way.
Shit, just let the elves have bloodburn on every blade, still not as scary as a dwarf with a hammer.
Quote from: nauta on August 02, 2017, 05:29:39 PM
Getting taints and contraband etc. is one of the more enjoyable things to do with an elf. I think an NPC vendor would ruin that part. That said, perhaps a little /easier/ (OOCly) access to the tablelands / Red Storm might encourage more elfs-are-black-market opportunities with PCs. Imagine an elf-only tunnel to Red Storm or the Tablelands? Trading with your long lost cousins the SRs for taints and booze... Being an asset to the spice trade...
That doesnt compute.
Getting taints/contraband with a race that's not supposed to leave the city in any way. The only way they're doing the getting that contraband is by dealing with Delves (when they're not turf bound), breeds, or other humans. While I do enjoy the aspect of wheeling and dealing, I find it a little ... counterproductive to claim that Celves are expert contrabandists. They're the contrabandists main customers. Not other way around.
Quote from: Dar on August 03, 2017, 07:52:32 PM
Getting taints/contraband with a race that's not supposed to leave the city in any way. The only way they're doing the getting that contraband is by dealing with Delves (when they're not turf bound), breeds, or other humans.
Maybe, I'm mistaken, but I don't see where this is said in the documents.
Quote from: Vex on August 05, 2017, 04:33:45 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 03, 2017, 07:52:32 PM
Getting taints/contraband with a race that's not supposed to leave the city in any way. The only way they're doing the getting that contraband is by dealing with Delves (when they're not turf bound), breeds, or other humans.
Maybe, I'm mistaken, but I don't see where this is said in the documents.
C-elves can leave the cities, but they're not allowed to ride mounts or wagons, for the silly reason that they have too much pride in their running ability.
The joke being, unlike d-elves, c-elves have no running ability. So they walk around the desert, which is possible, but a dangerous and annoying to have to stop and rest.
I've been absent from the game way too long to recall. But I've had 'corrective' commentary made to me by staff when my Celves were wondering aimlessly through the sands.
I'd love a staffer input on this. I dont mind inability to ride, I love the less then pique physical state of a celf. But is it normal for a Celf to wonder around the wilderness? I always understood it that Delves felt great debilitating unease inside the cities and Celves felt great debilitating unease outside of cities.
I've seen plenty of city elves outside the gates. It's never been made a definitive 'no go' for me, and I think it would be silly to say it that way.
The fact of the matter is, there's nothing about them that excels out there. It's already a fish out of water. A 'you shouldn't even be there' would just be both excessive and overcontrolling.
I got to play a city elf that was utterly flabberghasted by the sight of the walls from the outside. That was fun. I don't think it's 'normal' for them to be there, but I don't think it's something needing a hardline 'DAS IST VERBOTEN' either.
Ive had that explained away by C-elves having developed Agoraphobia by someone one time, I forget who though. Its a little wierd to say they all have it, but eh.
There is a habit of people pushing things to the very extremes and saying that's how it should be done.
- ALL Humans should treat ALL Elves as the WORST scum and shun them at all costs!
- EVERYONE should treat ALL Gemmed as the WORST scum and shun them at all costs!
- ALL City Elves exist solely in the City and NEVER leave!
I find this unfortunate as nothing is ever this. People secretly seek out gemmed services - it's even written about in the room descriptions of a certain temple. Some humans have worked with some elves - elves even have tests of loyalty for humans, dwarves and even half-elves. Some city elves do leave the city - they join the T'zai Byn, they slip out to scavenge from the dead near the city wall or steal from the nearby farms. I don't think everyone should go to the extremes with every character but should rather take these as the normative guidelines.
Specifically regarding City Elf leaving the city: The desert is as fearsome to them as it is to any other race who has lived their entire life in the city. They've heard the animals, raiders and monsters who kill. They'e heard the description of the bleak, dry landscape with nary a wall to hide behind or a pocket to pick! They've also heard that there are other cities/towns and some brave or lucky people have managed to get to them.
There are already plenty of limitations on city elves. Can't ride means their mobility outside of cities is pretty limited. If one of them manages to walk his way out into the grasslands to live in a cave and arouse gick suspicion as well as the base elf suspicion, then let them do it. Not enough of them are going to do it to ever be a problem and the odd one or two who might would be just interesting deviations from the norm.
Last thing we need is MORE restrictions on roleplay for any character type.
An elf being outside the city is fine.
An elf being outside the city acting as a hunter is fine.
An elf being outside the city because they rolled elf assassin and thats the 'easier' way to skill up, and they don't even have an ability to skin, nor are producing any reason to have GONE outside? Thats a paddlin'.
Just popped in here to say that this was a really fun read with a lot of really great discussion. Even if I wasn't enthralled with the city elf plight before now, I would be. :D (added smiley to indicate sincerity)
I love the struggle. I come from a lifetime of cyberpunk street level gaming where the system is basically built against you. It makes any sort of accomplishment that much more rewarding.
city elves are gnarcore. everything else is just carebear stares 0.o
also nice necro-bump, I liked this thread too.
Go city elf or go home.
My Nekka,
I won arm as a scumbag, loner c-elf a few times over not that long ago... C-elf is hard mode. But it's the best mode.
Play to their strengths. They dont have many but the main asset is you get a lot of wealth in terms of character arc / concept in general. You dont need a tribe or a gaggle of PC elves or some coded clan if you come up w. something solid.
some cheat codes for a decent c-elf archtype / concept that keeps you city / scumbaggy but broadens your play area a bit (i.e. interact w. other races and could be played / based outside the Rinth...just no breeds).
Make a poison smith
Make a MCer spec'ing in stabby weapons. Everyone will want them if you keep 'em simple but savage.
Make a smuggler w. a class where you MC items w. hidden compartments... Swords that have ident sdesc but are not weapons...
Make a MCer who counterfits goods...
Make a spice cooker w. some MC class where you could make your own spice or brew up Arm crack...
Make a fence (bar is set high here)
Just play them all w. a 'f u' attitude. Make it about the con and make the con about the long game.
No matter how lonely it gets, don't get pally w. a half-elf.
No matter how great you think it might get, don't mudsex anything but an elf.
You're a elf. A city elf. The Lambo of Arm races. Play that to your advantage.
Get money. Get hot, long-legged Nekker babes (or dudes). Rule a corner in arm.
Elves are just shit, we should genocide them entirely off the game whenever possible.
Gotta go with Adam on this one. Elves are worse than Rebel scum, and there is nothing worse than Rebel scum.
Quote from: AdamBlue on January 02, 2018, 07:43:41 AM
Elves are just shit, we should genocide them entirely off the game whenever possible.
Quote from: Strongheart on January 04, 2018, 03:48:14 AM
Gotta go with Adam on this one. Elves are worse than Rebel scum, and there is nothing worse than Rebel scum.
Ditto. Me three. The elves can go fuck a tree. Everyone knows this to be an absolute truth. Walking vermin.
Quote from: Dakota on January 01, 2018, 08:27:37 PM
My Nekka,
I won arm as a scumbag, loner c-elf a few times over not that long ago... C-elf is hard mode. But it's the best mode.
Play to their strengths. They dont have many but the main asset is you get a lot of wealth in terms of character arc / concept in general. You dont need a tribe or a gaggle of PC elves or some coded clan if you come up w. something solid.
some cheat codes for a decent c-elf archtype / concept that keeps you city / scumbaggy but broadens your play area a bit (i.e. interact w. other races and could be played / based outside the Rinth...just no breeds).
Make a poison smith
Make a MCer spec'ing in stabby weapons. Everyone will want them if you keep 'em simple but savage.
Make a smuggler w. a class where you MC items w. hidden compartments... Swords that have ident sdesc but are not weapons...
Make a MCer who counterfits goods...
Make a spice cooker w. some MC class where you could make your own spice or brew up Arm crack...
Make a fence (bar is set high here)
Just play them all w. a 'f u' attitude. Make it about the con and make the con about the long game.
No matter how lonely it gets, don't get pally w. a half-elf.
No matter how great you think it might get, don't mudsex anything but an elf.
You're a elf. A city elf. The Lambo of Arm races. Play that to your advantage.
Get money. Get hot, long-legged Nekker babes (or dudes). Rule a corner in arm.
Kinda what the problem is. C-Elves have been pigeon holed into one very narrow role. You're some sort of criminal backstabber that might have a crafting skill.
Which is fine if you like the role. But you're SOL if you want anything else or don't really like the 'rinth.
Half-giants are able to play more roles than city elves.
.
I had all sorts of little contentions with that particular post, but at the same time, he -does- play good elves, sooo...
I'd say follow the word long enough that you get truly comfortable playing elves until you can deviate from its narrower scope. It isn't that things are wrong in it, it's that they're pretty absolute. You'll trend away from the absolute as the psychology becomes more second nature.
You aren't playing the stereotype is the big deal. Play the elf. Let everyone else try to cram you into the stereotype and suffer from bad predictions on your character, let them struggle with reconciling between their expectation and your action. Everything is more fun that way. But playing the stereotype instead of the documentation is boring. The documentation makes room for a lot of things and interpretations, when read with an inquisitive mind.
I realize that sounds condescending, it's not intended that way. I just kinda mean that there's a lot more that can be put into the characters than they're often given credit for, and I'm hoping to reach some people who wouldn't normally play it and help them find some interesting facets.
I think a lot of the ic fear of elves is that a lot of players, maybe more than not, assume that the average elf -will- steal when given an easy opportunity to do so. As far as I can tell from the docs, this isn't the case. Stealing is something they admire to the point of cult worship--- but not everyone is a thief. Some are just unscrupulous merchants, or knifemakers who hope their children grow up to be master thieves. I haven't actually seen the docs in a while but honestly, if -every single member of a group- tried to steal on occasion, most of that group would be dead after a few years because of how hard people are on even petty crimes in Armageddon, and how hard they are on elves especially.
Quote from: Cind on January 22, 2018, 07:06:20 AM
I think a lot of the ic fear of elves is that a lot of players, maybe more than not, assume that the average elf -will- steal when given an easy opportunity to do so. As far as I can tell from the docs, this isn't the case. Stealing is something they admire to the point of cult worship--- but not everyone is a thief. Some are just unscrupulous merchants, or knifemakers who hope their children grow up to be master thieves. I haven't actually seen the docs in a while but honestly, if -every single member of a group- tried to steal on occasion, most of that group would be dead after a few years because of how hard people are on even petty crimes in Armageddon, and how hard they are on elves especially.
All elves are thieves in their mind, though to the other races that "theft" may not be stealing or a crime. Agreed that when you play an elf everyone always watches you and expects you to commit a crime even though there are usually a ton of other virtual elves around, you get singled out instantly. Also, to an elf stealing something isn't about value, it's about challenge, so if you're overly cautious and show that you are afraid of elves stealing from you, then you just made yourself a mark really. Stealing something from an unconscious guy isn't very impressive but could be fun to wave in his face once he wakes up. Stealing from a Templar, now that's some beautiful art. City elves I've played haven't had a very high coded skill in stealing or lock picking but have "stole" plenty in their own way.
In the 7 months I have been playing I've only seen a total of maybe 9 city elves. Which makes sense to me since playing a city elf is
worse than playing a half-elf in the sense that most people automatically hate you and target you but as a city elf you're less useful since you are at such a massive disadvantage outside the city. I get that
city elves aren't rangers but even people who live in the city leave to work or travel a bit. Even though there is no physical difference between desert elves and city elves, city elves are just weaker humans that can't ride mounts when it comes down to it. I wish there was something that let city elves rest faster if they are inside a building or a tent just to make slightly bearable. Right now it's 2 mins of walking and RPing then 5 mins of resting. Just as a city elf I'm not sure why I'm so proud of my running, sure I'm good at running in the city but why would I refuse to ride a mount when I have nothing to be proud of outside the city? I mean, other than cultural taboos and such.
Maybe we just need to advertise city elves as playing hard mode. Put in the bottom of the doc page, 'Elves are considered one of the hardest roles to play in the game,' and add that sometimes beyond hardship lies accomplishment.
Some people have stated that they like city elves better for how hard they are to play, so maybe we should keep it like it is.
Reading this thread makes me want to elf it out.
Time to write an elf next :D
Elves are great. And remember, not all elves need to be career criminals.
Bumping.
Now, I don't really understand the non-using of skimmers as -no one- can walk on the silt, but that's why they're elves. You don't understand why they do what they do.
Quote from: Cind on February 17, 2018, 01:01:42 AM
And remember, not all elves need to be career criminals.
Elf lover.