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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nergal on April 27, 2017, 06:48:42 PM

Title: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 27, 2017, 06:48:42 PM
One of the main projects I'm working on is the guild revamp. It's at a place where I feel pretty comfortable with sharing a few details, since it's gone beyond the conceptual point into something that's potentially workable.

The Concept
First of all, guilds will be called "classes" and subguilds will be called "subclasses". This is to help newbies understand what these entities are. We often get character applications from new players that will say something like "Amos joined the local assassin's guild" so clearly there is some confusion about that which we could easily eliminate.

Secondly, the new classes being created will be replacing the current classes - this isn't an addition to the system, but an overhaul of the system.

Thirdly, we want to differentiate between individual classes and groups of classes. Basically, the point of the class system is for each PC to have a discrete set of skills, such that significant overlap doesn't easily happen, and a certain type of PC is required for a certain type of task. Many MMORPGs do this with the "Holy Trinity" of DPS, Tank, and Healer characters. Since we are a roleplaying game, the variation between classes needs to be underneath a different structure. What I went with is a matrix representing a spread of different classes:

(http://i.imgur.com/OAuFxiU.png)

From left to right is what I'm tentatively calling the "home advantage". Basically: is the class built for city play, wilderness play, or general play? City classes get skills suitable to playing in the city, wilderness classes get skills suitable to playing in the wilderness, and general classes get some basic observational skills.

From top to bottom is what I'm calling "competency". It represents a gradient between combat skill superiority and mercantile skill superiority, which is also tied to survival skill superiority. To better explain what I'm talking about, here's some definitions:

Combat skills: Skills listed under "Combat skills" and "Weapon skills" when you type 'skills'
Mercantile skills: Skills listed under "Craft skills" and "Barter skills"
Survival skills: Skills listed under "Stealth skills", "Manipulation skills", and "Perception skills"

Heavy combat classes have top-notch combat skills, starting out and maxing out at high levels. However, they have very little in the way of mercantile skills and they have weak survival skills. On the flip side, heavy mercantile classes have top-notch mercantile skills and poor combat and survival skills. Mixed classes have the best survival skills, but cannot reach the same level of skill in combat and mercantile skills as their heavy counterparts. The light classes are a blend between the mixed class type and their respective heavy class types.

In this revamp, we're taking the time to address some issues seen in our demographics and player patterns. Basically, the playerbase is becoming older and more casual. We want to address that with higher starting levels for skills. Formulas have been used to balance out starting skills so that no one class feels gimped in comparison to the others. At the same time, players sometimes trend towards playing alone. We wanted to create classes in such a way that no one class can do everything by itself, like the ranger and merchant skills would. The goal here is to ensure that the new classes have a positive effect on roleplay.

The Result
The end result of that concept, once the final tweaks are made, is a group of fifteen distinct classes. While there are some similarities between classes (for example, shared skills), each class is capable in a specific role.

Some lessons were learned from the subguild revamp, namely that players want more input in major game changes. We want player input, and while we consider players' feelings on matters, the most valuable input to staff is informed input. That's why there will be an organized beta test for the new classes, where volunteers can make a new PC with one of the new classes and help us playtest them before they become selectable to the playerbase at large.

Beta testing will likely go for a few months before helpfiles on the classes are pushed out. The class help files will include some flavor text for the class as well as the class's skill tree, complete with information on skill levels, similar to what the current subguild helpfiles present now.

The Conclusion
Classes and the game's code are still being prepared for the beta, and players will be able to apply to be beta testers as soon as they're fully ready.

Feel free to ask questions related to this post here, or hold them for the upcoming player-staff meeting announced here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52421.0.html
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Akaramu on April 27, 2017, 06:53:21 PM
Sounds interesting! Thanks for sharing.

I admit to having been confused by the guild / class distinction as a newbie.  ;D
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Feco on April 27, 2017, 07:01:41 PM
Sounds awesome, and +100 for changing "guild" to "class."

I'm curious how magick and psionics are going to fit in.  Subclasses only?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: BadSkeelz on April 27, 2017, 07:15:21 PM

In this revamp, we're taking the time to address some issues seen in our demographics and player patterns. Basically, the playerbase is becoming older and more casual. We want to address that with higher starting levels for skills. Formulas have been used to balance out starting skills so that no one class feels gimped in comparison to the others. At the same time, players sometimes trend towards playing alone. We wanted to create classes in such a way that no one class can do everything by itself, like the ranger and merchant skills would. The goal here is to ensure that the new classes have a positive effect on roleplay.

I see this change likely to generate some push-back. I suspect the trend of casual play and solo play are related to each other, as it's a lot easier to do the former with the latter. I imagine a frequent argument will be that people go in to solo or self-sufficient play because they just don't have the time to form symbiotic relationships with other characters (of other classes). Making it harder to do things for the sake of roleplay isn't going to help casual players do whatever it is they want to do.

Quote
The Result
The end result of that concept, once the final tweaks are made, is a group of fifteen distinct classes. While there are some similarities between classes (for example, shared skills), each class is capable in a specific role.


I'm also a little leery of just how many guilds classes we're going to have, especially if they're "distinct" and meant for "specific roles." I played a Human Warrior Thug for three years. He could swing a sword OK and subdue people for torture but couldn't ride, couldn't track, couldn't spot, couldn't climb, couldn't navigate. This all became challenging when he was tasked with arresting Stealthies or leading a cavalry unit through sandstorms or down a 6 room drop. It left me wishing we had more generalist classes, so that we could do more things if we wanted without having to plan for that from character generation.

Maybe the mixed classes will provide what I'm looking for.

We're still going to use the existing subguilds, right? Extended and normal? Because those have been a big help in allowing niche classes (Warriors and Assassins, primarily) to play outside their stereotypical roles.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lizzie on April 27, 2017, 07:52:49 PM
I brought up a concept in Discord, that might work with this kind of new skill breakout. It's how it worked in a MOO I played/staffed in a long time ago so obviously the code would be completely different. But here's the general idea anyway:

Everyone gets "x" number of points to spend on skills.
Everyone is "allowed" to spend those points on any non-secret non-karma skills. Karma classes open up the appropriate options.
Everyone has to pick one of a multitude of specific template options.
Skills specific to the template you chose, cost the least, and skills not specific to the template you chose, cost the most. Certain utility skills would be of marginal cost to everyone, though certain classes would be able to improve while others might always be "adequate" at best.
A "tick" in the below example is a skill level. So from 0-the top end of Novice is one tick. The lowest point of apprentice to the last point of apprentice is a second tick. And so on.

So here's an example:
I pick ranger as my class.
Archery, dual wield, riding, spears, would all cost me 4 points per "tick" up to jman. I can start at novice and earn my way up to jman, or I could start at jman but it'd cost extra points that can't then be spent on other things), and each of those can improve to mastery over time.
Two-handed, backstabbing, clothworking, would all cost me 10 points per "tick" of proficiency, and none of them would ever get past a high "apprentice" level of competency.
My ranger would automatically get scan, hunt, desert navigation, hide, sneak, skinning all capable of mastering, and it would automatically deduct 2 points for each.
Contact would come with the class, no cost. Barrier would come with it at no cost, but it'd max out at journeyman unless I want to spend 5 points to give it a mastery capacity. Expel would be changed to branch if someone has barrier at journeyman, instead of mastery.
All other skills would cost 10 points per tick to get to jman, and never anything beyond that.

I can allot my points however I want. I could end up with 6 dozen skills, none of them ever becoming very good, but I'd be a jack of all trades, master at none - which can be totally useful and serviceable and survivable and interesting.

Or I could specialize in BEING that ranger, and become an uber ranger - but then only be able to be moderately useful with non-rangerly things, and even then - only a limited number of rangerly things since I'd run out of points if I try to spread it too thin.

Natural offense and defense would also be chooseable skills, that everyone would start out with. Combat-oriented characters would come with a higher natural offense, and could allocate points to match that with defense. Non-com could come with a higher defense, and could allocate points to natural offense. So you'd have to decide - do I want to be superman who can't skin a rat to save his life? Or do I want to be everyone's buddy but no one's minion? Or do I want to play moderate, be pretty damned useful with a particular set of skills - and somewhat serviceable with a few more? Or something inbetween. It could be totally customizable.

The costs of the warrior's skills would be different - their main weapon skills would be dirt cheap, their stealth skills would be ridiculously expensive, so would their crafting skills. But they would still be able to select those skills and add them to their skills list right from the start, as long as they don't run out of points to spend.

The same would be true for all classes. Each class would have most skills on the list, but the costs to select those skills would be different based on the class.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Akaramu on April 27, 2017, 08:03:05 PM
A skill point buy system would be the awesomest thing ever.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: The Lonely Hunter on April 27, 2017, 08:07:18 PM
Wow, this sounds awesome! Thank you for taking on such a big task.

However, I have a very serious concern. I play offpeak hours and often tend towards roles that are selfsustaining, partly because the way I must play (frequent afk, log without notice). I love playing my mostly-solo rangers. I interact with others but I can also play casually alone when I have to because of ooc constraints.

What I read here is that classes will be designed to force people to come together and will make playing for me very difficult.

I would ask that you please keep this in mind when making your changes.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Molten Heart on April 27, 2017, 08:11:45 PM

In this revamp, we're taking the time to address some issues seen in our demographics and player patterns. Basically, the playerbase is becoming older and more casual. We want to address that with higher starting levels for skills. Formulas have been used to balance out starting skills so that no one class feels gimped in comparison to the others. At the same time, players sometimes trend towards playing alone. We wanted to create classes in such a way that no one class can do everything by itself, like the ranger and merchant skills would. The goal here is to ensure that the new classes have a positive effect on roleplay.

I see this change likely to generate some push-back. I suspect the trend of casual play and solo play are related to each other, as it's a lot easier to do the former with the latter. I imagine a frequent argument will be that people go in to solo or self-sufficient play because they just don't have the time to form symbiotic relationships with other characters (of other classes). Making it harder to do things for the sake of roleplay isn't going to help casual players do whatever it is they want to do.

Quote
The Result
The end result of that concept, once the final tweaks are made, is a group of fifteen distinct classes. While there are some similarities between classes (for example, shared skills), each class is capable in a specific role.


I'm also a little leery of just how many guilds classes we're going to have, especially if they're "distinct" and meant for "specific roles." I played a Human Warrior Thug for three years. He could swing a sword OK and subdue people for torture but couldn't ride, couldn't track, couldn't spot, couldn't climb, couldn't navigate. This all became challenging when he was tasked with arresting Stealthies or leading a cavalry unit through sandstorms or down a 6 room drop. It left me wishing we had more generalist classes, so that we could do more things if we wanted without having to plan for that from character generation.

Maybe the mixed classes will provide what I'm looking for.

We're still going to use the existing subguilds, right? Extended and normal? Because those have been a big help in allowing niche classes (Warriors and Assassins, primarily) to play outside their stereotypical roles.

I think it'd be cool if classes got one (or maybe more depending on the class) learnable skill slot (maybe only certain skills would be available here) where they could learn/get a skill on their skill sheet after character generation. Just spitballing here, but it's an idea and maybe it's useful.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Barsook on April 27, 2017, 08:16:36 PM
A skill point buy system would be the awesomest thing ever.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Delirium on April 27, 2017, 08:17:00 PM
Wow, this sounds awesome! Thank you for taking on such a big task.

However, I have a very serious concern. I play offpeak hours and often tend towards roles that are selfsustaining, partly because the way I must play (frequent afk, log without notice). I love playing my mostly-solo rangers. I interact with others but I can also play casually alone when I have to because of ooc constraints.

What I read here is that classes will be designed to force people to come together and will make playing for me very difficult.

I would ask that you please keep this in mind when making your changes.

Thank you.

Agreed completely, and not just for offpeak reasons - sometimes you need a break from interaction or playtimes are limited.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lizzie on April 27, 2017, 08:19:26 PM
Also agree with TLH and Delirium. It doesn't affect how I play, but it would affect a lot of people I play with - which would result in affecting how I play :)
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 27, 2017, 08:20:08 PM
Sounds awesome, and +100 for changing "guild" to "class."

I'm curious how magick and psionics are going to fit in.  Subclasses only?

Magick is and always will be subclass-only.

Psionics... we'll touch on that at another time.

Quote from: Badskeelz
Making it harder to do things for the sake of roleplay isn't going to help casual players do whatever it is they want to do.

...

It left me wishing we had more generalist classes, so that we could do more things if we wanted without having to plan for that from character generation.

Maybe the mixed classes will provide what I'm looking for.

...

We're still going to use the existing subguilds, right? Extended and normal? Because those have been a big help in allowing niche classes (Warriors and Assassins, primarily) to play outside their stereotypical roles.

I suppose a better way to say the sentence you bolded would be "We wanted to create classes in such a way that no one class can do everything masterfully by itself, like the ranger and merchant classes would." These classes are going to be able to do other things, but primarily they're going to be able to do a few things particularly well. For combat classes, this is coombat. For mercantile classes, this is crafting and bartering. For mixed classes, this is the skills in the survival group.

The generalist classes are the mixed and light classes, and are strong in their own ways.

We are still going to use the existing subguilds, and they are very well suited to combining with these classes to form a "complete" character.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 27, 2017, 08:27:13 PM
Wow, this sounds awesome! Thank you for taking on such a big task.

However, I have a very serious concern. I play offpeak hours and often tend towards roles that are selfsustaining, partly because the way I must play (frequent afk, log without notice). I love playing my mostly-solo rangers. I interact with others but I can also play casually alone when I have to because of ooc constraints.

What I read here is that classes will be designed to force people to come together and will make playing for me very difficult.

I would ask that you please keep this in mind when making your changes.

Thank you.

Agreed completely, and not just for offpeak reasons - sometimes you need a break from interaction or playtimes are limited.

The class system always intended to force people to come together by making some classes stronger or weaker than others. In my opinion, it didn't really succeed at that. Some classes were designed to work alone, to the point that other PCs being along can actually be a hindrance (ranger, burglar). Some classes were designed to depend on other characters to exist and did not do well alone at all (pick-pocket).

This class system's intent isn't to force people to come together - it's to allow for the design of characters that are competent at what they do, but need to work with others to accomplish things out of the range of their class's skills. You could still roll the mixed/wilderness class with a crafting subclass and get a similar experience as a ranger with a crafting subguild, for example. But you're not going to be able to do combat with the ability of a warrior which is what rangers can currently do, for the most part.

The main takeaway is that the new classes are designed to have strengths and weaknesses. They are all viable in solo RP but they make group RP more worthwhile.

Does that help allay concerns?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: th3kaiser on April 27, 2017, 08:30:26 PM
Just gonna have to wait and see. I'm one of those players that plays almost exclusively on their own outside. So, hopefully this works just fine for that.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Delirium on April 27, 2017, 08:38:53 PM
I for one am convinced.

Will beta testers run their test PCs on a separate server?

Or will beta testers be testing "live", so to speak?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Melkor on April 27, 2017, 08:39:48 PM
A skill point buy system would be the awesomest thing ever.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 27, 2017, 08:44:04 PM
I for one am convinced.

Will beta testers run their test PCs on a separate server?

Or will beta testers be testing "live", so to speak?

The current plan is to test live. That may change as planning proceeds, but I prefer live testing because I want to see how characters will play with one another and on their own, and it's harder to do that without injecting them into current events.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Pretentious on April 27, 2017, 08:48:50 PM
But you're not going to be able to do combat with the ability of a warrior which is what rangers can currently do, for the most part.

Based on my experience, the gap between warrior and ranger is significant when it comes to melee combat. There is some overlap, but the difference between having some skills and not, and where skills cap really does make a difference. They have different domains, and can be shifted closer to each other through subguilds, but I really do feel that there's a distinct gap in combat ability between them. Unless you're looking from the envious perspective of an assassin ;).

I'm not saying rangers aren't awesome in combat, they certainly can be. But warriors have a really distinct edge even without getting into certain things they branch that rangers dream of enviously.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Akaramu on April 27, 2017, 09:05:45 PM
I wish Feco hadn't asked that question.  :'(

Or that I hadn't seen the answer to it.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: The Lonely Hunter on April 27, 2017, 09:51:38 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Nergal. Just please keep us people in mind that have to play somewhat solo a portion of the time if we wish to play at all. :)
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 27, 2017, 09:52:16 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Nergal. Just please keep us people in mind that have to play somewhat solo a portion of the time if we wish to play at all. :)

Definitely!
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: John on April 28, 2017, 07:30:47 AM
About damn time on the class/guild rename. Also great to see a revamp of the classes in game. It's been a long time coming, and I look forward to seeing how staff approach fixing certain longstanding problems.

However, to discuss something Nergal said unrelated to the primary announcement:
Magick is and always will be subclass-only.
It's disappointing to hear in a thread where you acknowledge that players want greater input to the game to then have staff turn around and say "No input on controversial and relatively recent change X will ever be taken into consideration and lead to us reassessing how X is represented in this game." It's your game and you can do whatever you want. But it is disappointing to see staff have this attitude.

Psionics... we'll touch on that at another time.
Given staff stance on Magick and the lack of willingness to talk on this subject, I fear that staff are seriously considering whether to gut the Psionicist out of the game. Yet another (relatively) uniquely Zalanthan class, just as the Drovian, Elkrosian and Nilazi classes were uniquely Zalanthan.

Now, back to the main announcement:
The current plan is to test live. That may change as planning proceeds, but I prefer live testing because I want to see how characters will play with one another and on their own, and it's harder to do that without injecting them into current events.
Will there be options to beta test a new class without killing or storing our current character? Given the average lifespan of my characters it's not really an issue for me, although I'm sure I'm not the only one who anticipates their current character would be a good fit for a theorized new class and would like the opportunity to provide informed feedback without losing their character. Even if it meant a skill reset and/or using up a special application to do so.

Also: Is gladiator one of the new fifteen classes?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 07:41:35 AM
In a game where the main classes are used to provide characters with a reasonable set of mundane skills that a normal person in Zalanthas would have (and in the case of magickers, skills that the PC had pre-manifestation), it does not make any sense to provide players with classes that just contain magick spells + cooking.  It makes far more sense to make the magick subclasses work perfectly, even if that means additional tweaks in the future to make them play more like main class elementalists. I am not dismissing players' concerns about magick subclasses - however, I personally think that bringing back main guild elementalists is a giant step backwards for character creation and roleplay, because main guild elementalists completely disregard the fact that PCs are people with abilities before they manifest. It's just not the topic of this particular thread, and that is the last time I'm going to address it here.

Staff are not considering removing psionicists. Again, it's just not really the topic of this particular thread.

Right now, the plan is to have beta test characters be players' primary characters. That means players will need to not have a character, or be willing to store their current PC. Considering typical PC turnaround and the likely length of the beta test, this isn't likely to be a problem. It is a bit of a gamble to abandon a perfectly good character for a beta test character, so we'll likely encourage people to stay with their current character as long as they're enjoying it. The beta test plans are still extremely preliminary, so things about the process can change in the future.

Gladiators are separate from the new class system.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Hauwke on April 28, 2017, 08:04:14 AM
So once the change goes in, will we need to switch to a class rather than a guild? Is that whats going on, or is it going to be more like what happened with mages, you will be left with a rare handful of full mages for a time, then eventually everyone will just be these new classes?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 08:06:50 AM
The current plan after the beta test is done is to let living characters at the time remain with the old classes, but new characters will not be able to select those classes. Over time as those old characters die out/store, everyone will eventually have one of the new classes.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Hauwke on April 28, 2017, 08:10:48 AM
Thats basically how I thought it was going to be, thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: John on April 28, 2017, 08:41:30 AM
In a game where the main classes are used to provide characters with a reasonable set of mundane skills
This wasn't always the case and has only become the case relatively recently.

it does not make any sense to provide players with classes that just contain magick spells + cooking.
Once upon a time classes didn't represent someine's "mundane" skills, but instead represented what they specialise in. In this model, classes that grant a lot of spell's made perfect sense. But I'm not looking to argue whether main guild Magicker's should come back as I don't want to derail this thread. My point was more the finality "this is so, and will never change" (no matter how much feedback we get to the contrary) is disheartening. Especially in a thread that is in part about soliciting feedback from players.

Staff are not considering removing psionicists.
I'm glad to hear it.

Gladiators are separate from the new class system.
will they still exist post-change?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 09:03:53 AM
Yes, gladiators will still exist post-change.

Sorry if what I said was disheartening. Like I said, we want informed feedback from players. The only way to get that is to have tests and have players actually play. That being said, informed feedback on the magick subguilds has thus far suggested that they're a positive change and helped us make additional changes to the magick subguilds - that's why I said that they will remain subguilds. Informed feedback on the new classes will undoubtedly guide us toward making changes to the new classes as players and staff test the classes out.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lancer on April 28, 2017, 11:54:08 AM
I'm thankful that so much interest and effort is being put into refreshing Arm's skill system, and hope it works out beautifully, but I do have to chime in that it is disheartening for me as well.

Primary takeaway for me from the magicker main guild thread and this sneak peek: Main guild magickers were removed because they were too overpowered, so everyone became main guild mundanes. Now main guild mundanes are too powerful, so everyone's going to a specialized class system instead.

I'll avoid any slippery slope fallacies (and I understand the logic of the intent) but that doesn't mean it isn't discouraging.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Riev on April 28, 2017, 12:13:45 PM
I'll be interested to see how it affects the actual "need" to have people with different skills. I agree, the few Pickpockets I've had with ANY success, were short lived and required PC (in general) to be injected into a story. Adding to it that you WANT to have a distraction (ie: a room with many people) but the more people in the room, the more likely someone's watch skill will catch you.

Also with burglars, they always WANT to be alone because taking along a warrior as a guard is a hindrance and helps nobody.

I still think, combat wise, specializations are less needed or interesting than to have actual, humanoid opponents for warriors to face that aren't arena-based or gith. But it'll be interesting to have a heavy combat lancer-type twohanding spears dragoon omg wow, but have it still fit the theme.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 12:15:39 PM
@Lancer:
Well, I would say that the main takeaway is not that main guild mundanes currently aren't too powerful. I think that misses half of the problem that the current guilds have.

There is a mixture between strong and weak classes. I would say that ranger and merchant are strong guilds to the point of being overpowered. They can perform their respective skills extremely well, and have a wide range of skills. Merchants can craft almost anything and they have some other skills that allow them to serve as expert spies, healers, riders, and wagon/skimmer pilots. Rangers can fight almost as well as warriors, and are expert marksmen, hunters, foragers, healers, spies, etc. all rolled into one.

Then you have very weak guilds, or guilds that are underwhelming. Pickpockets get a total of 16 skills, not counting the skills everyone gets. Pickpockets pickpocket. That is the only thing they do well, speaking for the coded aspects of play. Burglars are a little better than pickpockets - they can also pick locks! Warriors are good fighters and protectors, but they cannot even scan to look for the elves various dangerous people they're protecting against.

Assassins are fairly middle of the road - they are good at what they do, and they can do a few different things well. But even they are not a good model for the new classes, because they suffer from not starting off already knowledgeable in their supposed expertise.

So I would say that classes, as a whole, need to be made stronger, so that the player's choice of class actually matters. Let's say you want to play a solo hunter/gatherer role. Do you pick Raider (the working name for the heavy combat/wilderness class) so that you start off with high combat skills, but middling to low skills for survival outside the wastes, just so that you don't get killed by the first scrab that sees you? Or do you pick Hunter (the working name for the mixed/wilderness class) for less combat ability but a top-notch ability to sneak up on unsuspecting animals and forage for everything else you need? Or do you pick Scout (the working name for the light combat/wilderness class) for a balance between both of those other choices?

The theory is harder to explain without practice to back it up. That's why I'm confident in the plan to release the classes in a limited manner for testing beforehand, so we can be sure we got it right. A lot of this will make more sense to people when they're giving the classes a test drive, and nothing is permanent until the beta test is over.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Thunkkin on April 28, 2017, 12:18:22 PM
This is exciting. We'll see how it turns out--but the guild and skill-up system was feeling increasingly clunky. I personally hope that the new classes have transparent skill trees so that players can accurately envision their character's potential without being tempted to "cheat" and look elsewhere for this info.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 12:32:59 PM
This is exciting. We'll see how it turns out--but the guild and skill-up system was feeling increasingly clunky. I personally hope that the new classes have transparent skill trees so that players can accurately envision their character's potential without being tempted to "cheat" and look elsewhere for this info.

We'll definitely be including skill trees in the helpfiles for the new classes.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lancer on April 28, 2017, 12:37:40 PM
Agreed, Nergal - my reaction didn't mention the underperforming main guilds, as I've felt (and may have posted before, not certain) that Warrior/Assassin should be fleshed out and brought up to Ranger/Merchant standards, with Burglar+Pickpocket merged into a main guild Thief, if the whole system didn't move to a point-buy option. This didn't seem likely, especially without informed input on layouts and playtesting, so it was more of an omission but is still a refreshing discussion.

The potential focus on greater reliance on others when the theme of the game is to corrupt, betray, and murder each other also has me curious (guess it's one way to force more social microplots?), but I'll remain hesitantly hopeful that it just sounds worse at a glance than it is in the nitty gritty. And either way, kudos/thanks for the upfront inclusion of skill trees with the new class system.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: deathkamon on April 28, 2017, 12:52:46 PM
Agreed, Nergal - my reaction didn't mention the underperforming main guilds, as I've felt (and may have posted before, not certain) that Warrior/Assassin should be fleshed out and brought up to Ranger/Merchant standards, with Burglar+Pickpocket merged into a main guild Thief...

In case the new class change overhaul is faced with mixed reviews, this should be the next viable option. A merging of the Burglar/Pickpocket would allow them to practically be the city equivalents of Rangers. With the addition of more available skills on the Warrior and Assassin, they could also be brought up to those standards as well. The Merchant and Ranger classes could remain with all their skills however, since they're overpowered on their own already.

Codedly, there would be a lot less stress in making that sort of vision come to light, in my standpoint.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: nauta on April 28, 2017, 12:54:20 PM
I love the sneak peak development model being pursued here.  Not only does it lessen the shock from being blindsided by changes (changes scare people, sudden changes shock people, etc.), but it also generates excitement.  I'm also a big fan of the open development model and Linus's Law: many eyes make all bugs shallow.  (Or whatever it is.)

So on that point, will you be sneak-peaking (or in the technical jargon of the IETF: putting out an RFC [Request for Comments]) on the individual Classes as you move along?  I think it'd be a pretty good idea.  Like I said, you'd both lesson the shock, generate excitement, and maybe even someone might find a problem with a given Class and the skills assigned to it which you hadn't thought about.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 01:01:57 PM
I love the sneak peak development model being pursued here.  Not only does it lessen the shock from being blindsided by changes (changes scare people, sudden changes shock people, etc.), but it also generates excitement.  I'm also a big fan of the open development model and Linus's Law: many eyes make all bugs shallow.  (Or whatever it is.)

So on that point, will you be sneak-peaking (or in the technical jargon of the IETF: putting out an RFC [Request for Comments]) on the individual Classes as you move along?  I think it'd be a pretty good idea.  Like I said, you'd both lesson the shock, generate excitement, and maybe even someone might find a problem with a given Class and the skills assigned to it which you hadn't thought about.

Thanks! We plan on putting out additional updates as things move along, and we'll be getting feedback consistently from beta testers via request tool, as well as spectators to the process on the GDB. We're going to put the most stock in the former type of feedback though, since it is the most helpful and rigorous type. After the beta test is over and the classes are made fully available, we'll still be taking commentary from the playerbase as a whole.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Riev on April 28, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
I legit made a warrior because "main guild changes are coming" and I wanted to be placed into like "you're OP warrior? Have this new OP class with relevant skills!".

That character went on to become pretty derned successful.

Is this one of those projects that, despite an announcement, is likely to be 2+ years out? Or is the announcement a "We're probably ready to have this rolling out in 3-6 months"?

One of the hardest things to choke down when it comes to staff and changes, is that even when we KNOW something is coming, it takes -years- before we as players see any changes.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 01:30:44 PM
I don't think that it is years out, but I'm hesitant to stick a timetable on it because I know from experience that anything you expect to take X time will take longer than that. All I can say is that it's one of staff's priorities right now, but also one of many. We're still focused on providing a fun game to players in a lot of different ways.

So let's say that this announcement is just to keep players up-to-date on a work in progress and not associate it with a time. We want to let players know what's coming but we don't want players to stop playing and just wait in anticipation of the new classes, because there is still a long process to go through, especially with the limited beta.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Molten Heart on April 28, 2017, 01:32:13 PM
So let's get to the white elephant in the room. I think this is already been touched on but let's address it directly.

Rangers....

Rangers are by far my favorite class. I enjoy the utility and the independence the guild offers, allowing me to play with others but not being dependent on anyone to enjoy my play. Will there be a new class or classes that offer a similar independence and utility to the ranger guild? I'm just sad that I'm going to have to say goodbye to the ranger guild and I'm hoping there's something that's going to fill the role the ranger guild currently occupies.

Okay, I've got to go roll up a new ranger character and enjoy one last dash!
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Riev on April 28, 2017, 01:33:05 PM
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=9779&type=card)

This seems accurate.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 01:34:51 PM
Quote from: Me!
Let's say you want to play a solo hunter/gatherer role. Do you pick Raider (the working name for the heavy combat/wilderness class) so that you start off with high combat skills, but middling to low skills for survival outside the wastes, just so that you don't get killed by the first scrab that sees you? Or do you pick Hunter (the working name for the mixed/wilderness class) for less combat ability but a top-notch ability to sneak up on unsuspecting animals and forage for everything else you need? Or do you pick Scout (the working name for the light combat/wilderness class) for a balance between both of those other choices?

So yes, I think the ranger experience will be unharmed. I'll try to think of a good way to explain the current guilds in comparison to the new proposed classes.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: palomar on April 28, 2017, 02:23:02 PM
Looking forward to this!
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: BadSkeelz on April 28, 2017, 03:19:25 PM
I suppose a better way to say the sentence you bolded would be "We wanted to create classes in such a way that no one class can do everything masterfully by itself, like the ranger and merchant classes would." These classes are going to be able to do other things, but primarily they're going to be able to do a few things particularly well. For combat classes, this is coombat. For mercantile classes, this is crafting and bartering. For mixed classes, this is the skills in the survival group.

The generalist classes are the mixed and light classes, and are strong in their own ways.

We are still going to use the existing subguilds, and they are very well suited to combining with these classes to form a "complete" character.

Thank you for the response. It does sound better rephrased like that, although I would still rather have more people being able to do more things well. Being locked in to roles from character generation is probably the most irksome thing about the current guild-skill system for me.

I don't know how you're planning to deal with skill caps, but has any thought been given to making it potentially beneficial to double-up on skills with class and subclass choices? For example, let's say the Generalist or Light wilderness classes have a lot of skills that cap at advanced. If such a class selected "Outdoorsman" as their subclass, the shared skills (capped at advanced in both) would have their cap raised to Master.

 Basically this would allow a the character's skill caps to become greater than the sum of their parts. It would let people who really want to be master in more than one area a means to do so, at the cost of restricting their skillset. Similar to how Ranger and Protector now complement each other: you're at warrior level survival (At least when mounted) with all the inherent ranger survival goodies, but you're sacrificing the craft, trade, or stealth skills another subguild choice could have brought you.

The ranger/prot example works because it either gives you higher skill caps or circumvents a long grind by giving you a useful skill immediately. Other subguild choices, like Thug on a Warrior, do not give the same sort of benefit.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Riev on April 28, 2017, 03:23:07 PM
I had been thinking of that similarly to Skeelz.

Heavy Outdoor Combat has a small set of skills that all hit master, with no real utility.
Light Outdoor Combat has a rather large set of skills like skinning and foraging, but it caps at like Jman.

If you pick a subguild that compliments, it raises the skill to a certain point. The balance issue would be choosing city based combat warrior, and a subguild that compliments, making you into a walking ballista, but even then that'd be fine. Good luck finding someone to fight outside of a Gladiator.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Delirium on April 28, 2017, 04:43:07 PM
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Melkor on April 28, 2017, 06:08:23 PM
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

Agreed.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Armaddict on April 28, 2017, 06:13:11 PM
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02

Depends.

Journeyman parry is vastly and by far superior to no parry.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Melkor on April 28, 2017, 06:41:17 PM
Good point. Then perhaps that statement only applies to active skills.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 06:42:39 PM
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02

I can say that the current draft of the skill trees for the new classes puts all skills at a skill level you'd find usable, at the least.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Akaramu on April 28, 2017, 07:02:47 PM
Question. When the revamp is done, can players request to have their 'old' main class upgraded to a new one with related skills? Sacrifice some skills, maybe, to gain a handful of new ones?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 28, 2017, 07:16:38 PM
Not really sure about that yet. The current plan is to have PCs keep their old class, but I'm not against letting PCs upgrade to a new class, likely based on certain conditions to avoid headaches and lost skills.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Akaramu on April 28, 2017, 07:20:44 PM
Alrighty, thanks!

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. More variety in mundane skillsets can only be a good thing.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 28, 2017, 11:50:12 PM
Can we expect new skills or classes that arent currently possible?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 29, 2017, 01:06:05 AM
Can we expect new skills or classes that arent currently possible?

I also am curious about this.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Synthesis on April 29, 2017, 02:48:24 AM
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02

I can say that the current draft of the skill trees for the new classes puts all skills at a skill level you'd find usable, at the least.

Stealth and stealth detection skills pretty much have to be at master to be useful.

I think my first PC when the advanced subguilds came out was a city-elf warrior/rogue...and even with city-elf agility, having hide and sneak only at advanced was a total waste.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lizzie on April 29, 2017, 06:45:39 AM
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02

I can say that the current draft of the skill trees for the new classes puts all skills at a skill level you'd find usable, at the least.

Stealth and stealth detection skills pretty much have to be at master to be useful.

I think my first PC when the advanced subguilds came out was a city-elf warrior/rogue...and even with city-elf agility, having hide and sneak only at advanced was a total waste.

My experience on both sides of the issue say otherwise.

Stealth and stealth detection skills ONLY have to be at master to be useful, if the ONLY thing you want out of them is to hide from or detect characters with masterful skills.

If I have advanced stealth, I should have no problem hiding from anyone with detection skills at journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of slipping past someone with master detection in the right conditions. And if I have advanced detection, I should succeed most of the time when I'm actively seeking people whose stealthy skills are journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of catching someone with master stealth in the right conditions.

As someone whose played many rangers, some of whom mastered stealth, some who never bothered with it, all of whom mastered detections, I don't think mastery is significantly more useful than advanced, or even journeyman, given the variety of coded atmospheres already existing in the game, and given the variety of "levels of skill" you'll find in the collection of PCs on any given day.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Pretentious on April 29, 2017, 08:06:41 AM

Stealth and stealth detection skills ONLY have to be at master to be useful, if the ONLY thing you want out of them is to hide from or detect characters with masterful skills.

If I have advanced stealth, I should have no problem hiding from anyone with detection skills at journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of slipping past someone with master detection in the right conditions. And if I have advanced detection, I should succeed most of the time when I'm actively seeking people whose stealthy skills are journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of catching someone with master stealth in the right conditions.

As someone whose played many rangers, some of whom mastered stealth, some who never bothered with it, all of whom mastered detections, I don't think mastery is significantly more useful than advanced, or even journeyman, given the variety of coded atmospheres already existing in the game, and given the variety of "levels of skill" you'll find in the collection of PCs on any given day.

Some master stealth PCs are beyond the reasonable range of detection from master detection skills, first off. Depending on some factors, anyways, that I won't go into. But it's -not- just about the PvP aspect of the game being 'balanced'. For a ranger in the wild, there are critters out there that are just at the edge of max scan, or just straight up beyond it. Thinking that nerfs to detection are okay so long as they're accompanied by nerfs to stealth misses out on a -huge- part of the game for most rangers. And any other guild that wants to experience the wastes.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on April 29, 2017, 08:43:52 AM
Can we expect new skills or classes that arent currently possible?

I also am curious about this.

No new skills are planned at this time. Not sure what you mean by classes that aren't currently possible, if you can expound on that a bit.

Regarding useful skills: the whole point of the beta test is to see if the classes, as currently drafted, work. If they don't work we will add/remove skills and raise starting values/maximums as necessary until they do.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Synthesis on April 29, 2017, 12:13:53 PM
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02

I can say that the current draft of the skill trees for the new classes puts all skills at a skill level you'd find usable, at the least.

Stealth and stealth detection skills pretty much have to be at master to be useful.

I think my first PC when the advanced subguilds came out was a city-elf warrior/rogue...and even with city-elf agility, having hide and sneak only at advanced was a total waste.

My experience on both sides of the issue say otherwise.

Stealth and stealth detection skills ONLY have to be at master to be useful, if the ONLY thing you want out of them is to hide from or detect characters with masterful skills.

If I have advanced stealth, I should have no problem hiding from anyone with detection skills at journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of slipping past someone with master detection in the right conditions. And if I have advanced detection, I should succeed most of the time when I'm actively seeking people whose stealthy skills are journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of catching someone with master stealth in the right conditions.

As someone whose played many rangers, some of whom mastered stealth, some who never bothered with it, all of whom mastered detections, I don't think mastery is significantly more useful than advanced, or even journeyman, given the variety of coded atmospheres already existing in the game, and given the variety of "levels of skill" you'll find in the collection of PCs on any given day.

Rangers have low-master skill caps for stealth, so they aren't a good metric.

What I mean by "a waste" isnt "scan could spot me," it's "I routinely abjectly failed the skill checks such that I wasn't hidden at all."  Even after a successful hide, shadowing only worked for a couple of rooms,  which made engaging in shenanigans Southside extremely dicey.

I basically had to make a friend who could tell me if I was hidden or not, and spam the hide command until it worked. Runs of 4-5 failures were not uncommon.  Virtually every time I attempted to sneak up on or hide from a PC, they just looked at me and were like..."what up?"  The only thing this was useful for was convincing people that my semi-decent warrior/rogue was actually only a totally noob burglar, which was a very meta way to go about the business of being a rogue, but I suppose it was elf-ish, in that very metagamey way.

So, basically, what I mean by "useful" is that stealth skills at their max need a near-100% effectiveness against PCs and NPCs that aren't scanning or listening.  Setting the subguild caps at ranger levels would probably be okay.  But where they're at now is pointless, unless your primary guild is ranger or assassin, which allows you to roll with your primary guild's cap.

I only tried it once, and was so thoroughly dissatisfied that I've never bothered picking one of the extended subguild stealth guilds again, except as a ranger subclass.  If someone has run a successful non d-elf warrior rogue/cutpurse/slipknife and had a different experience, feel free to chime in, I guess.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Dresan on May 02, 2017, 11:24:03 PM
So in exchange for more focused skill sets, we will be getting higher starting values for those skills. Well does sounds like an interesting change and I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

I also agree with synthesis points above. Unfortunately not all skills are created equal. Some skills may not always useful or bring as much RP/interaction opportunities as other skills.

Sneak/hide:

backstab/sap
The new class system will either make this really good pick or really terrible class to pick.

One idea I liked was to revamp the skill to:

There are a couple other skills (ex. steal) where low level versions are almost not worth using. I feel the new class system will outline the shortcomings of certain skills more acutely regardless of whether they are in the class itself or in the sub-guilds.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lizzie on May 03, 2017, 09:17:42 AM
  • Do damage but nowhere near OHK anymore, giving the victim a chance to RP/enjoy slower death/escape

This one thing is my only concern Dresan. Who do you want the damage to stop being anywhere near an OHK? Different races have different brute strengths and natural offensive skill, and both of those are a part of the formula for combat success.

If you make it so that a half-giant's backstab is "nowhere near OHK" anymore, then that will also mean that a city elf might as well never select anything with the backstab skill at all. They're not likely to ever make even a dent in their victim.

If you make it so that a human's backstab is nowhere near OHK anymore, then a half-giant's and dwarf's ability to OHK won't be touched and that'll just attract people who *want* to use backstab to OHK, to play more half-giants or dwarves.

In addition, the whole point of the stealth/backstab combo is to NOT give your victim a shot at escaping. Sometimes, a bitch just gotta die, period. In this particular game's setting, I don't think that's a bad thing, and I don't feel that it needs to be tweaked.

My opinion is not based on my roleplay. I generally avoid PKing, and to my recollection I've never been OHK'ed. I've been knocked out with a SAP before a few times, but that still allows for me to see emotes and echoes, and emote back with the scene.

[/list]
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Riev on May 03, 2017, 10:15:34 AM
I also disagree on the no-OHK damage on backstab anymore. I've BEEN OHK'd on a PC, and it sucks. I can't explain to you what it feels like to be in the swing of your character, only to have a 0-prompt mantis head with no forewarning.

However. The thing that got me over it? I pulled strings with EVERY. PERSON. I KNEW. To find out what happened, and why. When I finally learned that I was killed because my brand new boss wasn't playing nice with the local thugs, I was to be made an example of. I wasn't the first, and I wasn't the last.

However from my perspective? I joined a clan, got sent to a shop, and died without a single prompt. Had I not pulled strings, I wouldn't have known what happened, and would have had no closure.

OHKs are fine, and in some cases necessary (fleeing is roleplaying, and is OP OP since being at 10% HP you're just as capable as at 100%). What I'd like to see is some sort of debrief afterwards, if requested.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 03, 2017, 01:17:14 PM
Thats a really good idea.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Nergal on May 03, 2017, 01:39:15 PM
If you're not sure how you died, definitely put in a request. We can explain things to an extent, especially in one-hit-kill and link-dead cases, and in the former case we can make sure the code echoes something clearly to the player.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Jihelu on May 03, 2017, 02:48:54 PM
Though it isn't directly the topic, it kind of matters as it will be added to some of the classes and what not and was mentioned earlier, I feel like stealth should be buffed up a bit.

I find my self in a strange opinion of it, though.
I don't think people should be undetectable gods because I didn't bother to twink watch. But I don't think people should have master stealth + hide and still fuck up or be unable to shadow someone.
At master sneak/hide (I forget if hide got to master or just high advanced) I couldn't hide or sneak in certain rooms I felt like I should have been able to. Or maybe I just would always fail. Maybe some rooms have disadvantages to stealth (If what I assume is right some rooms are downright impossible to sneak in).

Which makes things kinda shitty when the main appeal of your class is sneaky sneak and you get spotted and get murder murdered.

That being said, there were situations where sneak/hide were super fucking useful.
Maybe it's just inconsistent or luck based, idek.

I dislike the idea of "Look at all these fucking classes" but at the same time I'm optimistic and I'll probably see what they look like before continuing to not play or returning to see if it's loads of fun. I'm hoping it provides more utility, not less.

Also as someone said earlier in the thread, Jman is terrible. (Except parry, love me jman parry)
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Riev on May 03, 2017, 02:52:18 PM
I still like the idea of 3 classes to choose from, from definably different skillsets. Like EQ2 where you started a "scout" but could become a bursty assassin, or a middle-ground bruiser, etc etc etc.

Like, you're still (hopefully) tied into what your focus is (indoor, outdoor, mercantile, etc) but how you go about it is vastly different but still sustainable.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Jihelu on May 03, 2017, 02:59:53 PM
Let me rephrase everything I just said.


If I can get outdoor quit on a warrior I will sell my soul to this game.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: hopeandsorrow on May 14, 2017, 11:21:35 AM
Let me rephrase everything I just said.


If I can get outdoor quit on a warrior I will sell my soul to this game.

I was sort of curious who got outdoor quit and who didn't.

Everyone in the Wilderness  column?
Or is it only light combat/Wilderness?

I'm secretly hoping that Heavy Combat/Wilderness turns out to be a melee focused ranger, which is something I always wanted to see. 
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Jihelu on May 14, 2017, 02:42:33 PM
Melee focused ranger with or without riding to god tier.
Give them pikes.

I will hunt Tektolnes like a fucking animal so help me.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 15, 2017, 06:25:11 AM
I hold little value to wilderness quit these days. Quit-ooc and quit-rooms outside gates are a major reason why.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lizzie on May 15, 2017, 09:53:39 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing just ONE more quit-safe room for "anyone" in Allanak: Somewhere between the eastern stables and Red's Retreat, that isn't the Silver Ginka. Maybe a niche between two buildings on Caravan near Meleth's Circle, or a patch of shade to the side of a hut in the southwestern corner of the bazaar.

City people need love too. Not just wilderness folks.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Bushranger on May 15, 2017, 10:19:20 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing just ONE more quit-safe room for "anyone" in Allanak: Somewhere between the eastern stables and Red's Retreat, that isn't the Silver Ginka. Maybe a niche between two buildings on Caravan near Meleth's Circle, or a patch of shade to the side of a hut in the southwestern corner of the bazaar.

City people need love too. Not just wilderness folks.

I thought there was?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 15, 2017, 05:59:42 PM
I believe the outer-yard of the Byn compound (accessible to the public) is a Quit room.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 15, 2017, 06:14:22 PM
Is there a quit-room in the Temple? Been a while since I've been there. But if not that's a great place.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: manipura on May 15, 2017, 09:05:58 PM
Pretty sure there are two quit rooms between the east stables and Red's.  The one outside the Byn gates was already mentioned, the other is under the tarp in the dusty plaza.  I always felt like it would make sense for the hovel inside the narrow sandstone building (boot-seller) to be a quit room too.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Feco on May 15, 2017, 09:39:23 PM
Wagon yard is probably a quit room, too.  Haven't checked recently.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lizzie on May 15, 2017, 09:57:45 PM
Pretty sure there are two quit rooms between the east stables and Red's.  The one outside the Byn gates was already mentioned, the other is under the tarp in the dusty plaza.  I always felt like it would make sense for the hovel inside the narrow sandstone building (boot-seller) to be a quit room too.

The tarp is only 2 rooms from Red's. No need to even look for that spot, or remember that it exists. The Byn gates isn't on the way from anywhere, to anywhere.  My point was loosely related to the skill revamp (which is the topic of this thread). The whole "rangers can quit out in almost any room outsidfe cities in the game" thing vs. "if you're trying to get from the east stable area/merchant house clan halls to the commoners quarter of the city, and you get waylaid by RP and then have to log out halfway through your  70+-room trek, you have no choice other than to quit-ooc, which is an awkward workaround." As I said - city-based classes could use some love too, with regards to that particular issue. Rangers have (or had) ranger-quit. Doesn't make sense to have a class-based quit in the city, but at least one more quit-safe room halfway between A and B would be nice.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: lostinspace on May 15, 2017, 10:30:28 PM
Lots of quit rooms behind locks doors, someone might be sleeping in your apartment RIGHT NOW!
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Jihelu on May 15, 2017, 10:58:22 PM
Lots of quit rooms behind locks doors, someone might be sleeping in your apartment RIGHT NOW!
Please stop letting people know that I am a serial apartment sleeper.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: hopeandsorrow on May 15, 2017, 11:01:37 PM
IF we all thought about it.

It is 2017, maybe every room should just be a damn quit room and we be done with it?

Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Jihelu on May 15, 2017, 11:19:24 PM
IF we all thought about it.

It is 2017, maybe every room should just be a damn quit room and we be done with it?
Please.
I just want to be able to go outside.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: manipura on May 16, 2017, 01:35:00 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing just ONE more quit-safe room for "anyone" in Allanak: Somewhere between the eastern stables and Red's Retreat, that isn't the Silver Ginka. Maybe a niche between two buildings on Caravan near Meleth's Circle, or a patch of shade to the side of a hut in the southwestern corner of the bazaar.

City people need love too. Not just wilderness folks.

Pretty sure there are two quit rooms between the east stables and Red's.  The one outside the Byn gates was already mentioned, the other is under the tarp in the dusty plaza.  I always felt like it would make sense for the hovel inside the narrow sandstone building (boot-seller) to be a quit room too.

The tarp is only 2 rooms from Red's. No need to even look for that spot, or remember that it exists. The Byn gates isn't on the way from anywhere, to anywhere.  My point was loosely related to the skill revamp (which is the topic of this thread). The whole "rangers can quit out in almost any room outsidfe cities in the game" thing vs. "if you're trying to get from the east stable area/merchant house clan halls to the commoners quarter of the city, and you get waylaid by RP and then have to log out halfway through your  70+-room trek, you have no choice other than to quit-ooc, which is an awkward workaround." As I said - city-based classes could use some love too, with regards to that particular issue. Rangers have (or had) ranger-quit. Doesn't make sense to have a class-based quit in the city, but at least one more quit-safe room halfway between A and B would be nice.

When you requested additional quit rooms, other than Red's, I assumed you meant for RP reasons not for OOC convenience. 

As long as the player needing to quit-OOC has given it a teeny bit of thought, I've never really seen it be so awkward as people seem to think it is. 
And it really does make every room a quit room, for those times when you can't, for whatever reason, take another minute or two to get to the nearest tavern/stable/wagonyard/apartment/etc.

But yeah, more love for certain classes isn't a bad thing.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Bushranger on May 16, 2017, 02:10:14 AM
city-quit for certain city based guilds in the guild revamp?  :D
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lizzie on May 16, 2017, 08:38:19 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing just ONE more quit-safe room for "anyone" in Allanak: Somewhere between the eastern stables and Red's Retreat, that isn't the Silver Ginka. Maybe a niche between two buildings on Caravan near Meleth's Circle, or a patch of shade to the side of a hut in the southwestern corner of the bazaar.

City people need love too. Not just wilderness folks.

Pretty sure there are two quit rooms between the east stables and Red's.  The one outside the Byn gates was already mentioned, the other is under the tarp in the dusty plaza.  I always felt like it would make sense for the hovel inside the narrow sandstone building (boot-seller) to be a quit room too.

The tarp is only 2 rooms from Red's. No need to even look for that spot, or remember that it exists. The Byn gates isn't on the way from anywhere, to anywhere.  My point was loosely related to the skill revamp (which is the topic of this thread). The whole "rangers can quit out in almost any room outsidfe cities in the game" thing vs. "if you're trying to get from the east stable area/merchant house clan halls to the commoners quarter of the city, and you get waylaid by RP and then have to log out halfway through your  70+-room trek, you have no choice other than to quit-ooc, which is an awkward workaround." As I said - city-based classes could use some love too, with regards to that particular issue. Rangers have (or had) ranger-quit. Doesn't make sense to have a class-based quit in the city, but at least one more quit-safe room halfway between A and B would be nice.

When you requested additional quit rooms, other than Red's, I assumed you meant for RP reasons not for OOC convenience. 

As long as the player needing to quit-OOC has given it a teeny bit of thought, I've never really seen it be so awkward as people seem to think it is. 
And it really does make every room a quit room, for those times when you can't, for whatever reason, take another minute or two to get to the nearest tavern/stable/wagonyard/apartment/etc.

But yeah, more love for certain classes isn't a bad thing.

There is no RP reason for a quit-safe room. Quitting out of the game is a mechanical ooc activity. Has nothing to do with roleplay, at all (except to avoid it, which you need to do if you're trying to log out of the game).
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on May 16, 2017, 03:43:57 PM
33 room trek through the city, from east stables to Red's.

The Arboretum is 3 rooms off this trek.

T'zai Byn gates are 4 rooms off this trek.

Tarp is on the trek.

So at most you are about roughly 13 rooms from a quit room at any point during the journey, just less than 20 if you only consider going one way and not backtracking.

I am not sure distance from quit room, for this example, makes the case for city quit well.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: nauta on May 16, 2017, 03:57:12 PM
IIRC there's also a quit room in one of the tents in the Bazaar itself.

Still, a really obvious and convenient quit room right there on Meleth's would be keen.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Lizzie on May 16, 2017, 05:12:01 PM
IIRC there's also a quit room in one of the tents in the Bazaar itself.

Still, a really obvious and convenient quit room right there on Meleth's would be keen.

I'll have to take a look for that. If that's true, and IF that room is closer to the southwest corner than it is to the northeast (and therefore, further from the stables quit-safe room), then that'd probably do the trick.

I don't believe the Arboretum is accessible to the public, Brokkr. Last I recalled you had to be in specific clans to get through the door. And again, the Byn isn't on the way to or from anywhere.

My desire stems from being at a halfway point - or near to it, on the way from the west to the east, and needing to quit out, while there are other PCs around who might need/want to RP with mine over the way or in person. It's awkward, and clunky, when rangers who aren't in the city can just type quit and be done with it. No need to have to try and avoid RP, or attempt to put up a psionic barrier if you don't want to, or risk having to use quit-ooc on any kind of regular basis. I'm not saying that it's a necessary thing to have more quit rooms. I'm saying - it'd be nice if there was one more near Meleth's, that ANYONE could access.

Or, give city-quit to city-based guilds, just like you have ranger-quit for rangers. I like my idea better - that one extra quit-safe room would be great, and less involved, and less cumbersome, and less work.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: tapas on May 23, 2017, 01:39:46 PM
Less walking distance to and from noble/merchant estates would be pretty sweet. But I just quit ooc when I don't feel like walking for 10 rooms.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Armaddict on June 04, 2017, 09:47:01 PM
More quit opportunity in the city is akin to saying that staying logged in for 2 minutes to walk away is a harsh injustice of code mechanics.  Quit OOC is already used to get around this, more often than not.  I agree with city-quit being very meh.

Shrinking things down for this is wholly unnecessary, and a large inconvenience on other portions of the game that are more subtly intertwined with this (e.g. Don't complain about assassination scenes being sudden and jarring when you're lobbying for fewer opportunities to do it while racing against movement speed).
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Cind on June 04, 2017, 10:04:17 PM
I'd like to see maybe two more quit rooms in Allanak because Allanak is big and one more in Storm because its always a bit awkward when you're a Stormer or especially a raider/bad guy and some rando bynner has to go quit in the tavern because they can't quit in an alley/shanty because mechanics.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Incognito on June 17, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
I would suggest a 4-way-exit NoSave Dark NoSleep room with guards at the southern end of Tradesmen's Street.

North exit to Tradesmen Street - for rinthers and Bynners
East exit to the Bazaar - for merchants, noble-house servants or anyone else for that matter
West exit to the Elementalist quarter - for gemmed folk
South exit to Meleth's Circle - for everyone

NoSave - so people dont drop stuff there and expect to find it later.
Dark - so people can't see who's entering/leaving the game and moving in which direction.
NoSleep - so people dont sleep there for regen and stuff.
Guards - just to ensure PCs dont try to abuse that room to steal/kill/backstab/throw etc. (I don't know if there's an option to set a room as nocombat/nosteal/CALM/nomagick - but I think the concept is clear enough to understand).

Practically, something near there should suffice for everyone to quit out and re-enter the game and move into whatever direction they wish to - without letting others know.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on September 29, 2017, 06:13:11 PM
Quick Update!

I wanted to let folks know that this project has not fallen by the wayside.

On taking up some of the work the first thing I did was a corporate style re-org to rename the home advantages.  What used to be called city, wilderness and general we are now calling criminal, wilderness and city, in order to better reflect the underlying competencies and chunks of population, without changing anything about the underlying structure!

After this impressive win, I took a break for a few weeks.

But seriously, work progresses.  I'm going to leave this topic locked for now, will reopen when there is more to share!
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on November 04, 2017, 01:25:50 PM
I thought I would share this, given next week's Discord chat.

(https://i.imgur.com/8WhGI2V.jpg)
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Delirium on November 04, 2017, 01:28:41 PM
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Ron-Burgundy-Stare-and-Nod.gif)
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: evilcabbage on November 04, 2017, 01:31:42 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/63/10/0063108f5e8f15bc6a60fdf3b38281f0.jpg)
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Synthesis on November 05, 2017, 03:27:04 AM
Which of these will be available for d-elves?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Hauwke on November 05, 2017, 04:18:29 AM
If they are going to restrict them like they currently are, I would assume that criminal would be locked for thebdesert variety, and wilderness for the city variety.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on November 05, 2017, 10:25:55 AM
Which of these will be available for d-elves?

Thought it was fairly obvious that Sun Runners would only get to play Dune Traders and Soh would only get to play Raiders?




Seriously though, going to hold off answering questions until Saturday.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Fredd on November 05, 2017, 10:33:06 AM
Which of these will be available for d-elves?

Thought it was fairly obvious that Sun Runners would only get to play Dune Traders and Soh would only get to play Raiders?




Seriously though, going to hold off answering questions until Saturday.

Does that include Rollout? Some of us have very valid fears about our current long lived pc's being completely useless in their originally designed roles/classes due to what SEEMS to be a massive increase in weapon skill caps. And we should not have to make sure our RL coincides with an announcement on a chat to have them dissuaded.

How do you plan to implement these? Will long lived PC's get to switch to the new system if they find their current class is not sitting where they feel there pc needs to be on this new chart?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Malken on November 05, 2017, 11:03:08 AM
Man, sounds great!

Can't wait to retire in 20 years so I can start playing again for real.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Malken on November 05, 2017, 11:05:42 AM
Does that include Rollout? Some of us have very valid fears about our current long lived pc's being completely useless in their originally designed roles/classes due to what SEEMS to be a massive increase in weapon skill caps. And we should not have to make sure our RL coincides with an announcement on a chat to have them dissuaded.

How do you plan to implement these? Will long lived PC's get to switch to the new system if they find their current class is not sitting where they feel there pc needs to be on this new chart?

A lot of these questions have been answered in the first few pages of the thread by Nergal I think. The posts are only a few months old so I think that the answers are probably still valid.

The current plan after the beta test is done is to let living characters at the time remain with the old classes, but new characters will not be able to select those classes. Over time as those old characters die out/store, everyone will eventually have one of the new classes.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Synthesis on November 05, 2017, 12:36:42 PM
Does that include Rollout? Some of us have very valid fears about our current long lived pc's being completely useless in their originally designed roles/classes due to what SEEMS to be a massive increase in weapon skill caps. And we should not have to make sure our RL coincides with an announcement on a chat to have them dissuaded.

How do you plan to implement these? Will long lived PC's get to switch to the new system if they find their current class is not sitting where they feel there pc needs to be on this new chart?

A lot of these questions have been answered in the first few pages of the thread by Nergal I think. The posts are only a few months old so I think that the answers are probably still valid.

The current plan after the beta test is done is to let living characters at the time remain with the old classes, but new characters will not be able to select those classes. Over time as those old characters die out/store, everyone will eventually have one of the new classes.

Now is your time to achieve that dwarven focus to be the greatest Warrior in the Known, people.  If you can survive long enough, you'll be the only one left!

Which of these will be available for d-elves?

Thought it was fairly obvious that Sun Runners would only get to play Dune Traders and Soh would only get to play Raiders?




Seriously though, going to hold off answering questions until Saturday.

The GDB is a better format for me to ask questions, because I'll be at work when the real-time Q&A is going on.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: HavokBlue on November 05, 2017, 10:57:32 PM
Which of these will be available for d-elves?

Thought it was fairly obvious that Sun Runners would only get to play Dune Traders and Soh would only get to play Raiders?




Seriously though, going to hold off answering questions until Saturday.

Does that include Rollout? Some of us have very valid fears about our current long lived pc's being completely useless in their originally designed roles/classes due to what SEEMS to be a massive increase in weapon skill caps. And we should not have to make sure our RL coincides with an announcement on a chat to have them dissuaded.

How do you plan to implement these? Will long lived PC's get to switch to the new system if they find their current class is not sitting where they feel there pc needs to be on this new chart?

Your PC isn't useless in your current role and won't be made useless. Your PC is exactly as effective now as they were before. Your PC will be exactly as effective after the new guilds are launched as they are now. New guilds may have higher skill caps than your existing PC, but if your PC can mastercraft knotty fuckwood bangles now, they can mastercraft knotty fuckwood bangles post-launch too.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Riev on November 06, 2017, 09:24:40 AM
I believe the concern is that if a city assassin on the current system has significantly different skills or lower skill caps than "heavy combat criminal" in the grid, will people be allowed some sort of a switch?

We're all still playing a MUD here, not a MUSH. Some people may prefer their current skills, but certainly some people will want a taste of the "new" without needing to throw away a hundred hours of play time.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Synthesis on November 06, 2017, 10:00:42 AM
I believe the concern is that if a city assassin on the current system has significantly different skills or lower skill caps than "heavy combat criminal" in the grid, will people be allowed some sort of a switch?

We're all still playing a MUD here, not a MUSH. Some people may prefer their current skills, but certainly some people will want a taste of the "new" without needing to throw away a hundred hours of play time.

The new classes could be better.

They also could be worse.

My advice would be to just be patient.  Your PC will die eventually.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Fredd on November 06, 2017, 10:42:13 AM

Your PC isn't useless in your current role and won't be made useless. Your PC is exactly as effective now as they were before. Your PC will be exactly as effective after the new guilds are launched as they are now. New guilds may have higher skill caps than your existing PC, but if your PC can mastercraft knotty fuckwood bangles now, they can mastercraft knotty fuckwood bangles post-launch too.

You are essentially taking some people who inteded to make one class,  and turning them into a complete other, and then going "You still have the same exact abilities, why are you crying about how there's now a bunch of new classes that are better at what you intended to make?"

If I didn't set out to make a middle of the road fighter 3 months ago, why the FUCK would I want my guy to randomly become one after playing him for 3 months?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brytta Léofa on November 06, 2017, 11:07:04 AM
I'm cautiously super excited about this.

Biggest fear: that none of the new guilds will be as cool as ranger.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: seidhr on November 06, 2017, 12:43:55 PM

You are essentially taking some people who inteded to make one class,  and turning them into a complete other, and then going "You still have the same exact abilities, why are you crying about how there's now a bunch of new classes that are better at what you intended to make?"

If I didn't set out to make a middle of the road fighter 3 months ago, why the FUCK would I want my guy to randomly become one after playing him for 3 months?

We're not turning them into anything, is the thing.  They're the same as they ever were - as you go on and say yourself in the next sentence.   ???

Your really-great-at-fighting "warrior" will still be a really great fighter after the revamp.  He will not be "middle of the road."

Feels like complaining for the sake of complaining here.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Riev on November 06, 2017, 01:01:47 PM
Feels like complaining for the sake of complaining here.

Feels like superiority demeaning concern here.

We have no information other than to wait for the AMA. As staff, you know all the answers. Some players also have much information from being ex-staff, friends with staff, etc.

There should be, and is, a legitimate concern that the framework of the game we all play together is changing. If I intended my Warrior/Slipknife to be more of a heavy city combat character, and not a heavy criminal combat character, how do I know I'm "where I should be"? I chose the guild and subguild combination based on factors that, with the revamp, may not be valid.

Have a mote of compassion or social tact and just say "your answers will have to wait for the AMA" rather than "Hmm sounds like complaining."
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Suhuy on November 06, 2017, 01:21:08 PM
What Riev said.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Synthesis on November 06, 2017, 01:34:52 PM
It pretty much is pointless complaining at this point.

When you app'ed your current PC, you knew what you were getting, and that's what you have.  I don't understand why you would be upset about someone having something different.

It's like getting mad that you bought a 2015 vehicle and Ford won't automatically upgrade you to a 2018.  I mean...you would laugh at anyone who posed that as a serious expectation, right?
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Fredd on November 06, 2017, 01:46:28 PM

You are essentially taking some people who inteded to make one class,  and turning them into a complete other, and then going "You still have the same exact abilities, why are you crying about how there's now a bunch of new classes that are better at what you intended to make?"

If I didn't set out to make a middle of the road fighter 3 months ago, why the FUCK would I want my guy to randomly become one after playing him for 3 months?

We're not turning them into anything, is the thing.  They're the same as they ever were - as you go on and say yourself in the next sentence.   ???

Your really-great-at-fighting "warrior" will still be a really great fighter after the revamp.  He will not be "middle of the road."

Feels like complaining for the sake of complaining here.

EXCUSE ME? Complaining for the sake of complaining? No. I'm complaining because it feels like you are doing a major patch to a game, and leaving everyone who has pc's on the old patch, with the old patch.

As Riev said. Some of us build people with an exact idea of how they will fit into the world. Now you are adjusting that overall fit, and telling me my complaint about things isn't valid.

For fucks sake, did you really just tell me my VALID CONCERN is fucking complaining for fucking complainings sake?  Some people are in PVP oriented clans. this update makes A HUGE IMPACT on how those people in those clans, can do their job. If they are a ranger. They just saw their combat ability fall quite a bit, because their ability to use weapons went from the second best in the game, to clearly in the middle. Yes they still have the same ability to fight. but the people they have to fight, suddenly became better then him.
 
Why the fuck did I come back to play this game if this is STILL how staff treats players worries?




Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Synthesis on November 06, 2017, 01:50:52 PM
If you're playing in a combat clan, you and everyone else are probably plateaued way beneath your guild maxes, anyway, so I mean...you got nothing to worry about.  You'll all plateau at "middle-of-the-road" together.  ::)
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: seidhr on November 06, 2017, 01:57:20 PM
So you're saying we should just never update anything because when you made your PC 2 years ago, you had an understanding of where they fit into the game world.  So changing the game world, code mechanics, or virtually anything else that could (even indirectly - as in this case) impact your character is a bad idea.

That _is_ what you're saying.  And yeah, sorry - not sorry.

Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Synthesis on November 06, 2017, 02:05:06 PM
So you're saying we should just never update anything because when you made your PC 2 years ago, you had an understanding of where they fit into the game world.  So changing the game world, code mechanics, or virtually anything else that could (even indirectly - as in this case) impact your character is a bad idea.

That _is_ what you're saying.  And yeah, sorry - not sorry.

Nah, he's saying that if you change the game in some way, y'all owe him the ability to change his guild/subguild choices so that he doesn't suffer a perceived loss.

Another thought experiment:  let's say he rolled a warrior/master armorcrafter with the intent to mastercraft scrab shell items, but then y'all recoded scrabs so that they have (master) hide and are no longer aggro.  That would totally ruin his indie-solo-scrab-mastercrafter concept, because warriors can't scan, and the scrabs would all be sitting around hidden.  The argument wouldn't be "you can't do that to scrabs!" it would be "let me go back and pick ranger/master armorcrafter, because I can't do what I wanted to do anymore."

It's still not a reasonable expectation, but it's not what you've described.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on November 06, 2017, 02:15:08 PM
This was announced in April.  If you started a PC 3 months ago, the answer was already there if we were going to convert you or not.

The absolute power of current guilds remains unchanged.  The relational power between existing guilds remains unchanged.  There will be a new relational power dynamic with the new guilds for existing guilds, but in that sense will not be any different than the relational power dynamic between new guilds themselves, as none of them are in play.  Putting your specific concerns around that into a specific question would be the sort of thing that would be great for the AMA.

If you, like Synthesis, are not able to attend the AMA, I would suggest using the AMA thread to clearly pose questions that you would like to see addressed.  It may well be you remind your fellow players to raise issues they may not have thought about during the AMA by doing so.  If we have time, and there are questions on areas not brought up by other players, it also gives staff a pool to draw questions from.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Adhira on November 06, 2017, 02:16:36 PM
Brokkr made a post to give some information on upcoming changes to help people formulate questions for this Saturdays discussion. Earlier on in the piece he did state that we would not be answering questions on this thread. I understand that some of you are impatient and want to know now, I also understand that some of you may not be able to, or do not wish to attend the discussion on Saturday.  Unfortunately that is where we are going to be discussing these changes in the first instance. As Brokkr has mentioned you are welcome to submit questions that we will try and address in the AMA. I will make a new, separate thread for that now.

A reminder to all - please keep your language and tone civil.   If you have a serious complaint or problem then submit a request so that we can discuss it properly. 

For now I'm locking this thread. Brokkr may continue to post updates here, but since we're not having any actual discussion there is no point keeping it as a discussing item. After this weekends chat we will post the log and may open up a different thread for discussion.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on November 28, 2017, 01:15:07 AM
I asked the play testers of the new classes to drop some feedback if they wanted to, and I would post anonymously for the overall playerbase.  Since it has only been a couple of weeks, most folks are just starting to get settled in to their characters, but I thought it would be nice for folks to have some first thoughts from other players.  Here is what a few of them had to say, unedited:

Quote
Based on my experience with one class, it seems like some good thought has been put into the new systems. Any worried rangers afraid that they're going to lose their favorite guild should not be.

Quote
I find the new guild I have been testing to be very flexible and adaptable to a wide variety of city roles with a little bit of forethought. I find myself with more options than I had on similar old guilds.

Quote
The class I've been trying has a pretty broad selection of starting skills and gets even more versatile with a little branching (which doesn't take as long as it used to due to skill levels starting out a bit higher). It also seems to work by itself, I didn't have to pick a subguild to fill any gaps. I'm not sure if the skillcaps will work out, but at this point that's speculation as I haven't hit them yet.

The guild sniffing is pretty hilarious  ;D

Quote
Having picked one of the varieties of heavy combat, mine very much has that warrior vibe but with a few extra bits and bobs to make it feel a bit more a versatile. Since it's mostly combat, it's crazy early days to give too much feedback but it's going fairly well in that regard.

Quote
I'm trying a class that would fall in the ranger class family and it has been a blast to play so far. All the important skills start out at a reasonable level, and the class feels very well balanced. Looking forward to seeing how the class continues to progress.

Quote
I'm very encouraged about the new classes by what I've seen so far. For the class I'm trying, the starting skills and their levels allow for a more capable, versatile character right from the start.

Quote
The class I am playing is one of the city based more mixed classes and to be honest, it's pretty awesome.  I like how I have some combat skills (surprisingly good ones) and also a bit of crafting.  Kinda wish the crafting was a bit higher starting skill wise as finding usable recopies has been rough, but it's rather nice to have some starting, useful, crafts.


note:  Artisan is still lacking a play tester.  If you were going to start a merchant anyways, it is something to think about!
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on November 29, 2017, 12:55:58 AM
And some more...

Quote
So far I’m a big fan.  I was pleasantly surprised by both the collection of skills and the starting levels.  Don’t mistake the “light” in “light combat” for “somewhat weak” like I first did.  A “light” PC with good stats can still wreck house.

Quote
If you were looking for a break from warrior, ranger, merchant, and thief classes times three, then you'll enjoy this.  I've only played one class, but I can tell from my own class and the feedback from others that this is going to bring a lot more variety to the game.

Quote
My class has a wide range of useful skills that could let a character fresh out of chargen fit into most of the city clans without raising an eyebrow or having everyone overlook the fact that they never improve at anything.  Pretty sustainable, but with just enough limitations that involving other characters as an indie is preferable.  I chose a non-karma subguild to see what the newbie experience would be, and high grades so far.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on November 29, 2017, 07:07:06 PM
Quote
I'm very pleased with the class I'm testing so far. I was surprised that the class delivered much more than I was expecting. It's a great improvement over the guild that currently serves this class's role.
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on February 13, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
It has been a little over three months since we started play testing new classes.  The testing will continue until we have the classes at a point we feel comfortable releasing them for general play.

We have accomplished a lot in terms of getting the classes ready to play.  A lot of the code work done is not transparent to players, in that it was background work on how guilds and skill sets are handled by the code.  Some things you may have seen updates for, such as the Feb. 10 release notes which gives us more control over how skill trees branch.  Other things have not been visible, such as changing the way abilities, such as the ranger ability to quit out in the wilderness, are assigned to different classes.

The play testers have given us a lot of feedback, which has been extremely helpful.  There is still a lot of useful feedback to be had from players in live situations as we continue this process.  Once piece of feedback, for example, had to wait until the Feb. 10 code release.  With that code change, we were able to incorporate feedback that if archery branches from using crossbows, or vice versa, it shouldn’t take unduly long practicing one type of ranged combat before the other is unlocked.

While overall we are happy with how things have progressed, there are a handful of specific classes that we feel need a bit more of a niche in terms of what they can do versus similar classes.  Without a niche, it can feel as if other classes are always a better pick.  That is what we are working on now. 
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on March 27, 2018, 12:15:56 PM
Quote from: Discord Sponsored Roles Chat Session
MarshallDFX - Last Saturday at 9:29 PM
Not sponsored role related.. but..
What's the latest on the new classes?  What's the general timeline looking like?  Very related: How much transparency on the skill trees will there be?  (I'm in favor of transparency)

Nathvaan - Last Saturday at 9:31 PM
Well, the specifics of that is a tiny bit out of my wheelhouse as that's been managed by Brokkr.  I can say I do read all the feedback on the beta guilds and they are mostly positive.  I'll ask Brokkr to update via the GDB on that part.

We've identified the classes that need something extra to give them some pizzaz or uniqueness, and working through what that means in terms of any additions at a code level.

There is no general timeline, there are milestones that are linked to activity rather than time.  One milestone will be when we think we have all the code we think we'll need in place.  Another milestone will be when we think we've gotten all the skill addition/removal/tweaks in place that we want to do.  Another milestone will be when we've had some chance to test beyond that milestone...and that is the one which would bring about the go live.

Testers have all been sent the help file for the class they are playing.  Here is an example of what the help files currently look like, with bogus stuff, although this is subject to change depending on tester feedback (we really haven't grappled with the question of whether to include branching or not yet):

COOKIE MONSTER

Striking fear into the heart of cookies everywhere, the cookie monster class is known for its murderous efficiency when combating hordes of cookies.  Glasses of milk are also dealt with vigorously, although only after vast amounts of cookies are eaten.  While primarily dealing with destruction of cookies, cookie monsters are also capable bakers, ensuring they don't go hungry when no wild herds of cookies can be found.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  cookie eating, crumb production, gobbling noises
Advanced:  milk drinking, forage
Journeyman:  brushing teeth

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  eating stacks of cookies at once, burping
Advanced:  chocolate chip cookie making, snickerdoodle cookie making, raisan oatmeal cookie making
Journeyman:  mouthwash

Abilities:
Can forage for cookies
Can quit out in cookieland
Title: Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:28:29 PM
Happy Memorial Day!

HEAVY COMBAT GUILDS
Heavy combat guilds are talented in combat in general, and focus primarily on
melee combat. They have barely any mercantile skill and a small amount of survival
skill. Since they are the most competent in combat out-of-the-box, players who choose them
will likely lean toward combat and antagonist roles.

LIGHT COMBAT GUILDS
Light combat guilds are competent in combat, though not as talented in it as their
heavy counterparts. They make up for it with greater knowledge in mercantile and
survival skills.

MIXED GUILDS
Neither as competent in combat as the combat guilds, nor as competent in
mercantile things as the mercantile guilds, mixed guilds rely on a mixture of
talents and a great deal of strength in survival skills.

LIGHT MERCANTILE GUILDS
These guilds lean more toward the craft and barter skills, but not quite as much
as the heavy mercantile guilds. They make up for that with a good mixture of
combat and survival skills, which they can achieve competency in.

HEAVY MERCANTILE GUILDS
These guilds go all-in on barter and craft skills, sacrificing most talent in all but the most specific of combat and survival skills.

These descriptions have been around for awhile, acting as both help file for the future as well as design direction for the different competencies.