Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => World and Roleplaying Discussion => Topic started by: Ath on October 13, 2016, 07:58:03 AM

Title: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 13, 2016, 07:58:03 AM
So there are many jobs in Zalanthas, these are fully automated tasks that can be done within the game world to provide characters a way to make some coins.  I will fully admit, not all of them are balanced at the moment, and this is of interest to staff.  You can see all the current "jobs" here:  http://armageddon.org/help/view/Jobs  --  The issue with job at it's core is the risk vs reward vs gameplay.  We need to make sure there is risk involved, we need to make sure the reward is worth the risk, and that the gameplay is fun and intuitive/realistic.  Not all of these are easily done in a game world as vast and different as Armageddon's.  So the hope for this next topic is to go over a few of these jobs and try to really get down and dirty with them (you see what I did there?).  I will be asking general and specific questions on particular jobs, and seeing what sort of idea we can get from the players.  I may even put together a few polls that will be subtopics off of this main one.

As with my last topic, there is a disclaimer here.  There is no promise that any of this information will be used, staff still has final say on it, but we do have great interest in hearing what you have to say.  This information may or may not affect any current or future planned projects, it could just be for informational uses.  We do ask that this topic be kept on topic... I will delete posts that are of no relevance to the topic and if it continues to be derailed, I will just close it.  The feedback we are hoping for is informational feedback, constructive criticism, and anything that can provide us with some sort of insight into the topic at hand.  This is not here to complain or whine about something in the game that you don't like... if you don't like it, tell me why and give some constructive feedback on it.

So the first area I want to focus on is jobs in general.  Are they necessary?  Are there enough of them?  Do you think they can be easily abused at the moment?  If so, do you think we should implement caps or limitations?  Which of the jobs is your favorite, and why?  I want honest here guys, if you use it because it's an easy way to make cash, be honest.  I'm not saying anyone here abuses things, but I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

NOTE:  There is no reason to go in depth into any mechanics, and if there really is some sort of exploit or something broken with any mechanics, please don't post it here.  Please send that information up via a Bug Request on the Request tool and we can talk about it more there.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Hauwke on October 13, 2016, 08:22:25 AM
My favourite job, used to be salting. Until it was nerfed, made harder. Which while realistic just makes it more annoying then anything.

Dung scraping is a good one. It too can be annoying and tedious with the fact it is actually limited, which does make sense to be honest.

Clay digging, is abusable, but -very- time consuming to be abusable.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: evilcabbage on October 13, 2016, 08:23:59 AM
well, this begs the question: where else are independent people going to get money, if they're not crafters, but jobs?

the risk with the salt job is (currently i believe) you have to go deeper into the salt flats, find the actual deposits of salt, and not get eaten by a mek.


a job that could use some modification is the tailoring in red storm. unless it's changed recently, the second you hit journeyman in tailoring you basically have free money falling into your hands.

i believe i've also seen glass deposits not three steps out from allanak. i believe that the forage table should be modified so glass has to be found further out - near where it usually spawns. in spider country. otherwise that's a ludicrous source of money that you have access to for the risk of "maybe" there's a beetle or a spider or a scrab nearby (but let's be real, that's so unlikely).


i have no opinion on the lumber yard in morin's because i have never utilized it. maybe someday.



also with the forage changes, -most- of the forage-based jobs (to include salting) are actually easier because gathering the materials is simpler. it's based on your strength, endurance and forage skill. if you have high strength, deposits are a joke.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 13, 2016, 08:37:05 AM
I've never gone salting so I have no opinion about it.
Clay digging: limited experience. Risk of getting there and back is minimal *most* of the time. Reward is equally minimal, since you have to work hard-core for a long period of time to earn even enough to cover the cost of food and water to get there and back. Personally, I feel this is more of a group-effort activity.
Spice-sifting: significantly harder to do with the new delay changes combined with the existing storm code. There's also more frequency of "unfriendlies" showing up, whether in the form of local creatures or PCs. However the reward is higher, and so I feel this is mostly balanced.

Something I would think helpful without unbalancing: Every time you bring in more than "x" grains in a single sifter's worth to the NPC, you get an automatic one-time waterskin refill discount at the waterseller next door. Has to be used before you use your sifter again. So it's more like a bonus that can't be stacked or racked up. A "You got more than the average, so have an extra sip of water today, on the house" kind of thing.
I feel this idea could work with all the "auto-quests." Bring in more than a certain value of product, and they spot you a bonus good for that delivery only. A discount on a filled waterskin, or half price on a single barrel of ale at the Gaj, maybe your next mount rental is only 10 sids etc.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 13, 2016, 09:05:42 AM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 13, 2016, 08:23:59 AM
well, this begs the question: where else are independent people going to get money, if they're not crafters, but jobs?

An independent with the skinning skill can hunt, and this brings in a lot of money -- probably too much money.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 13, 2016, 09:24:16 AM
Deposit hacking can be absolutely ridiculous, but most especially because the Mine's Pockets seem to be deeper than they used to be.
Salting is still good coin, but definitely not the "I just made 10,000 coins last year doing a thoroughly boring chore".
Clay, I only did in Tuluk, and was hardly ever worth it. Couldn't afford the water you'd waste after a day in there.

I think if anything were to be changed, it would be to make every job's "output" be monetarily worthwhile to crafters. Like cotton in Tuluk... you could get paid per boll, but if you wanted to keep it, you'd be charged... and then could charge -more- to a PC that wanted to be a spinster. With clay, some PCs would want that fresh wet clay. Obsidian mining, only at times and for limited use, glass so far as I know is just vendor trash. Dung could be dried for firestuffs but otherwise, its also vendor trash.

I like the jobs, especially when people don't need to leave the city but ARE stuck doing a thoroughly gross job just to get by. I'd just rather there be two avenues: Either sell to an NPC for a low level of coin and be relatively limited, or sell to PCs who might actually -want- those resources and will pay as much or more than the NPC so they don't have to spend a day getting it themselves.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 13, 2016, 10:11:57 AM
Quote from: Riev on October 13, 2016, 09:24:16 AM
Deposit hacking can be absolutely ridiculous, but most especially because the Mine's Pockets seem to be deeper than they used to be.
Salting is still good coin, but definitely not the "I just made 10,000 coins last year doing a thoroughly boring chore".
Clay, I only did in Tuluk, and was hardly ever worth it. Couldn't afford the water you'd waste after a day in there.

I think if anything were to be changed, it would be to make every job's "output" be monetarily worthwhile to crafters. Like cotton in Tuluk... you could get paid per boll, but if you wanted to keep it, you'd be charged... and then could charge -more- to a PC that wanted to be a spinster. With clay, some PCs would want that fresh wet clay. Obsidian mining, only at times and for limited use, glass so far as I know is just vendor trash. Dung could be dried for firestuffs but otherwise, its also vendor trash.

I like the jobs, especially when people don't need to leave the city but ARE stuck doing a thoroughly gross job just to get by. I'd just rather there be two avenues: Either sell to an NPC for a low level of coin and be relatively limited, or sell to PCs who might actually -want- those resources and will pay as much or more than the NPC so they don't have to spend a day getting it themselves.

Could you explain more on the Deposit hacking?  Are you meaning that it's easier to get coins from it?

Salting I have seen a decline in use, but I think it is because the fact it isn't as worthwhile to get the tons of coins from it as it used to be.  The issue is finding the balance on it.  There really isn't a good way for us to see if people are even using it much now is the problem, so getting feedback is important.

I do think it is important that you can "use" these items... clay is a good example and likely a good point for us to follow in the future.   Thank you for this feedback.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 13, 2016, 08:37:05 AM
I've never gone salting so I have no opinion about it.
Clay digging: limited experience. Risk of getting there and back is minimal *most* of the time. Reward is equally minimal, since you have to work hard-core for a long period of time to earn even enough to cover the cost of food and water to get there and back. Personally, I feel this is more of a group-effort activity.
Spice-sifting: significantly harder to do with the new delay changes combined with the existing storm code. There's also more frequency of "unfriendlies" showing up, whether in the form of local creatures or PCs. However the reward is higher, and so I feel this is mostly balanced.

Something I would think helpful without unbalancing: Every time you bring in more than "x" grains in a single sifter's worth to the NPC, you get an automatic one-time waterskin refill discount at the waterseller next door. Has to be used before you use your sifter again. So it's more like a bonus that can't be stacked or racked up. A "You got more than the average, so have an extra sip of water today, on the house" kind of thing.
I feel this idea could work with all the "auto-quests." Bring in more than a certain value of product, and they spot you a bonus good for that delivery only. A discount on a filled waterskin, or half price on a single barrel of ale at the Gaj, maybe your next mount rental is only 10 sids etc.

I really like the idea of turning in items for a return of another item, rather than coins.  This is actually something we've talked about staff side, it's actually really exciting to see others bring this idea up.  Would you think this could be used for multiple of the jobs out there?  I personally look at the existing jobs not as a constant source of coins, but a great place for someone getting started to make coins.  Just thowring this out there, but maybe the Allanak "Jobs" give a chit for your work, and you turn the chit in for food, water, tools, or maybe some coins, but you'd get a reduced amount of coins, the value of it would be from the objects you could get.  Do you think that could work?  (Idea here, doesn't mean it will happen :P )

Quote from: evilcabbage on October 13, 2016, 08:23:59 AM
well, this begs the question: where else are independent people going to get money, if they're not crafters, but jobs?

the risk with the salt job is (currently i believe) you have to go deeper into the salt flats, find the actual deposits of salt, and not get eaten by a mek.


a job that could use some modification is the tailoring in red storm. unless it's changed recently, the second you hit journeyman in tailoring you basically have free money falling into your hands.

i believe i've also seen glass deposits not three steps out from allanak. i believe that the forage table should be modified so glass has to be found further out - near where it usually spawns. in spider country. otherwise that's a ludicrous source of money that you have access to for the risk of "maybe" there's a beetle or a spider or a scrab nearby (but let's be real, that's so unlikely).


i have no opinion on the lumber yard in morin's because i have never utilized it. maybe someday.



also with the forage changes, -most- of the forage-based jobs (to include salting) are actually easier because gathering the materials is simpler. it's based on your strength, endurance and forage skill. if you have high strength, deposits are a joke.

So I need to look at this, but I don't think you're right here.  There was some changes back in the day on it, but either way... having strength should help with hacking/mining IMO.

As for Tailoring... yes... I realize that completely with Storm.  It is an area of interest for sure.

As for Glass, I know what you're talking about, it's something that could be changed with some new stuff we have so it could be better controlled where the deposits show up.  I'll add that to my list of information, it's a very good point.  Not sure when or if it will get done, but I can see it as valuable feedback for now.

---

Keep the feedback coming, I love what we have so far.  Thank you!
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 13, 2016, 10:15:48 AM
I think current jobs function well, I really like dung and dung selling. I'd like to see new jobs though.

Hauling. Hauling obsidian and stone from one part of the city to another. Hauling water from the temple to certain establishments.

Scoria mining to clear the road could be automated for pay at the miner place(if it isn't already).

Body removal. Pay like 15 coins for dropping a corpse off at the pile, randomly generate corpses about the city.

Street sweeping. Generate dust and debris, give 'sids for cleaning it up.

Gith scalps, Scrab heads, Scorpion/angk/Kagor clearing, Drov Beetle removal should all pay from certain establishments.

It's be cool if you could get a job in taverns for waiting, serving and whatnot.

Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 13, 2016, 10:21:46 AM
Deposit hacking, with a decent skill and stat roll, just requires the ability to fend off the occasional scrab for the most part. In the course if maybe 20 RL minutes, you can make a few small off a single deposit.

Granted, they don't appear everywhere and it may take some scouting to find one, so this may be pretty well balanced, all things considered.


Concerning chits, I've tried on a few characters to get things like this working... where you're not just shifting coins around (Tuluki Legions had a chit/quartermaster system that worked out pretty well). It'd actually be kinda nice if the Trade Ministry set up a sort of "Centralized Job Post" where work around the city, that helps the city, gets rewarded in food and water. Think Byn, but on a wider scale. You're clearing stables? That'll get you some good food. Bringing in obsidian and glass? Worth a couple skins of water and a pack of rations.

I don't know how that'd balance, either, if someone just collects all the "free" food and water for a day, but sounds like that'd eventually work itself out!
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: LucildaHunta on October 13, 2016, 10:32:17 AM
Off the top of my head, I think a little courier service would be a nice addition and also newbie friendly. You go to the building, let's call it UAS, type package, the npc gives you a package and generates a random "Take this package to the armor smith in the bazaar." You go to Salarr and type "deliver". The npc armor smith says, "Thanks, I've been waiting for this hammer! Here's a tip." You get 10-20 coins. Not a lot, but enough to afford to fill up your skin, afford a meal with a little something left over.

The bonus is newbies can learn the city in an organic way. What about, code abuse? Put a limit on how many jobs a PC can do a day, say three. I don't think you can really get around code abuse in mini game type jobs. Really it's just a nice quick way to earn some coins and for newbies a good way to learn various locations in the city.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Cabooze on October 13, 2016, 11:06:51 AM
If I mention the most amazing moneymaker in arm, it would be revealing too much ingame info.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 13, 2016, 11:15:19 AM
Mining + the occasional gem is ridiculous money, I've found.


I've never spice silted for money so I've no idea about that.


Salting is pretty decent money.


Never tried picking up dung for money.

Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 13, 2016, 11:18:11 AM
So I do agree, it would be nice to add some new things in, but that isn't the focus of the thread.  Lets focus on the existing jobs and the questions I've asked throughout the thread if we could.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: thewolfen3 on October 13, 2016, 01:46:05 PM
Spice sifting is the only income source that makes you feel you're contributing to the world. At least, that's how my characters see it, you know?
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:03:43 PM
I want to second Reiv's point: I enjoy jobs where I know I'm contributing to a PC.  Hence, jobs like plant gathering and foraging for rocks and hunting are high on my list, and jobs like obsidian/glass mining and salt foraging are low.  Ways to motivate interaction with jobs:

o Automated tasks should generate materials usable by PCs (Reiv's point).  Glass and salt, and to a lesser extent, obsidian are not very popular among PC crafters, for instance.

o Benefit from selling to a vendor should be small compared to selling to a PC.  At present this is pretty good, although I'd like to see it lowered a bit if the material is local and raised a bit if the material is foreign (see the next point)

o Materials from one area fetching a higher price in another area, e.g., wood selling better in the south than in the north.  This would encourage people to hire Byn (or other) escorts to move material, and thus create more interaction, even if the ultimate purchaser is an NPC in the south.  This could use the most looking into (and would be complicated, I admit), but I'm always surprised when I take a product unique to the north and find I can't even sell it in the south (to NPCs).

o Job locations in public places -- this is where the Red Storm tailor quest is low on the list.  It encourages you to hide away.  By contrast, salt foraging and dung digging and so on -- these require you to go out and potentially encounter other PCs while you work.

By the way, we should start pushing the term 'gong farmer' for dung scrapers.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_farmer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_farmer).
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 13, 2016, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:03:43 PM
o Materials from one area fetching a higher price in another area, e.g., wood selling better in the south than in the north.  This would encourage people to hire Byn (or other) escorts to move material, and thus create more interaction, even if the ultimate purchaser is an NPC in the south.  This could use the most looking into (and would be complicated, I admit), but I'm always surprised when I take a product unique to the north and find I can't even sell it in the south (to NPCs).

This is already done. ;)  Maybe some of the other materials need to get tweak for it, but I can say without a doubt wood is jacked up in the south.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:28:19 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2016, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:03:43 PM
o Materials from one area fetching a higher price in another area, e.g., wood selling better in the south than in the north.  This would encourage people to hire Byn (or other) escorts to move material, and thus create more interaction, even if the ultimate purchaser is an NPC in the south.  This could use the most looking into (and would be complicated, I admit), but I'm always surprised when I take a product unique to the north and find I can't even sell it in the south (to NPCs).

This is already done. ;)  Maybe some of the other materials need to get tweak for it, but I can say without a doubt wood is jacked up in the south.

Yeah!  I was thinking about some cases with furs that are (according to the help file) coveted, e.g., goudra, turaal, etc., and unique to the north, yet fetching less than what they'd fetch in the north -- and in some cases being unsellable.  I'd have to go back and double check, I just remember being surprised in a couple cases.  (I think part of the problem is that the Luir's hide guy pays pretty darn good for furs.)

I'd also like to see reasons for southerners to come north to sell -- but, hehe, what have they got down in the south?  Scrab bits?  Pfft.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Delirium on October 13, 2016, 02:30:07 PM
^^^ This, also, I can't ever seem to sell lumber for a decent price in the south unless to PCs.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 13, 2016, 02:34:07 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:28:19 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2016, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:03:43 PM
o Materials from one area fetching a higher price in another area, e.g., wood selling better in the south than in the north.  This would encourage people to hire Byn (or other) escorts to move material, and thus create more interaction, even if the ultimate purchaser is an NPC in the south.  This could use the most looking into (and would be complicated, I admit), but I'm always surprised when I take a product unique to the north and find I can't even sell it in the south (to NPCs).

This is already done. ;)  Maybe some of the other materials need to get tweak for it, but I can say without a doubt wood is jacked up in the south.

Yeah!  I was thinking about some cases with furs that are (according to the help file) coveted, e.g., goudra, turaal, etc., and unique to the north, yet fetching less than what they'd fetch in the north -- and in some cases being unsellable.  I'd have to go back and double check, I just remember being surprised in a couple cases.  (I think part of the problem is that the Luir's hide guy pays pretty darn good for furs.)

I'd also like to see reasons for southerners to come north to sell -- but, hehe, what have they got down in the south?  Scrab bits?  Pfft.

I'd imagine it may be worthwhile to investigate "northern-style" crafts that don't sell well/at all in the South. Currently, yes, wood items sell better in the South (marginally), but Obsidian has never sold "as well" in the north. Now with Luir's kind of being the only place to sell and make your coins in the northlands (Blackwing maybe but hahahhaha), it might be worthwhile to look into the returns of traders crossing the Red, or making a dangerous foray into elf territory.



However more on topic: the clay digging in the south might be a viable alternative but I honestly don't know many that do it. Its distant enough from the city that it could be dangerous, but close enough that people just run there anyway. Its outside of the city which restricts it to indies only, and the crafts from it don't exactly send the playerbase clamoring for the clay. As I don't know what its returns are, I would just like to point out that due to these restrictions, it should probably return a better value than in-city shit-digging, but less than spice sifting (because hey, at least you're in a protected village when scraping clay).
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:37:53 PM
If it doesn't take things too far off topic, one focus question might be (for the crafters out there):

Which materials do you have to send people on a go-fetch quest for, and which can you get locally at the NPC vendors (before PCs populate the vendor with the goods)?

I know that quirri hides, for instance, are perfect: these don't populate in NPC vendors, and are PC generated (IIRC).  I'd like to see more cases like that.

You could even (to account for off-peak people) make it such that off-peakers could sell to an NPC vendor (so crafters can have access to it), but the items that load by default are much more expensive compared to items populated by PCs.  So, for instance:

The Hides Guy down in Allanak loads with a few chalton hides at 60 sid (since local) or whatever, maybe one or two raptor hides at 160 sid (since foreign).  But if a PC brings in a chalton hide, the price would drop to 30 sid, and raptor hides to 80 sid.  (I'm not sure if the code could handle this.)
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: path on October 13, 2016, 02:48:24 PM
My two favorite jobs are spice grebber in Red Storm and rolling bodies to sell the rags in the Rinth. I think you get too much for the rags. That means I have to self modulate how often I do it to maintain anything like a respectable level of poverty.

I wish the sifting were slightly more lucrative. It's significantly more dangerous, which increases the fun for me.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 13, 2016, 04:25:10 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:28:19 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2016, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 13, 2016, 02:03:43 PM
o Materials from one area fetching a higher price in another area, e.g., wood selling better in the south than in the north.  This would encourage people to hire Byn (or other) escorts to move material, and thus create more interaction, even if the ultimate purchaser is an NPC in the south.  This could use the most looking into (and would be complicated, I admit), but I'm always surprised when I take a product unique to the north and find I can't even sell it in the south (to NPCs).

This is already done. ;)  Maybe some of the other materials need to get tweak for it, but I can say without a doubt wood is jacked up in the south.

Yeah!  I was thinking about some cases with furs that are (according to the help file) coveted, e.g., goudra, turaal, etc., and unique to the north, yet fetching less than what they'd fetch in the north -- and in some cases being unsellable.  I'd have to go back and double check, I just remember being surprised in a couple cases.  (I think part of the problem is that the Luir's hide guy pays pretty darn good for furs.)

I'd also like to see reasons for southerners to come north to sell -- but, hehe, what have they got down in the south?  Scrab bits?  Pfft.

I get what you're coming from, and I will be flat out honest... it's not possible to tweak pricing based on creature type of the skin.  We have some ways to tweak, but not that detailed sadly.  So we leave that sort of "rarity" pricing to interactions with PCs and Roleplaying.  Now, lets work to get back on topic.  We can talk about hunting and all the sort of stuff in another topic, we're trying to focus on the automated jobs PCs can do based on the help file I listed.  Salting/Dung/Clay/Cotton/Spice/Mining (Hacking)  Red Storm Leather/Clothing is another one we can add in, but not as well advertised.

---

So time to change to focus up a bit... so we have some mixed views, that's good to see.  I personally think Clayworking is pretty well balanced as it is very useful outside of just turning it in, and it doesn't give you a ton of money... but enough to "survive" on and start out with.  Mining sounds like it can be great or bad... very heavily based on the luck of the draw it seems since deposits are more random.  Spice sifting sounds like it is good, I still see people using it, but it's not as crazy as it was before due to some changes on the way sifters work.  Salting I am hearing is tough now because of the risk involved to get better deposits.  It also doesn't seem like the sort of job a solo person can do and survive off of it, might be a better group sorta job.  I'm surprised to hear, but Dung has a lot of fans (I personally have never used it), that is interesting to say.

So lets focus on Salting... more so I am talking about current Salting, after the new changes that were put in.  Why do you not use Salting now?  Would you rather it was back the way it was before?  If we had it like before, how would you suggest we change it so people are not walking away with a large in 'sid each time?  Is Salting too dangerous compared to the rewards now?  Can a Solo newbie survive off of salting right now, how about a Solo Veteran?
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 13, 2016, 05:01:09 PM
Can you straight up not forage salt anymore or is foraging in the lesser 'salt flat rooms' just straight garbage?


I used to salt a bit here and there but never when my forage was actually good, now I would probably be good at it.


Though the problem with me going into the salt flats is scary giant monsters are there and do I really want to risk being attacked because I can't look North East/North West/etc for pieces of salt?

Not really.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: solera on October 13, 2016, 05:13:42 PM
As a new PC, what put me off most, was the cost of water in mining and salting, for little gain at the start.  I like the suggestion of part payment in water, if it could be done.

Early days of living poor has always been a good time for me, though I preferred shit bagging and grebbing/cooking roots. The outgoings seem less. Low risk, enjoyable RP.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: LucildaHunta on October 13, 2016, 06:16:56 PM
The couple times I've seen the new salting area and the changes, it looked a little far away for a newbie. Unless said newbie was into exploring. I think it's doable for a veteran player though. The risk I see from salting tends to be more of a mechanical one. Other than that salting seems fine as is.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 13, 2016, 06:22:26 PM
My two cents re: salting) Even before the locations were put further out, I found the introduction of scorpions to be a mild-to-midling turnoff, especially because for a while (perhaps fixed?) the purported cure didn't seem to work (or only worked sometimes) -- and the duration of their poison required a lot of downtime.

Re gong-farming/dungscraping) Once or twice I've wanted to actually purchase dung (for cookfires) and couldn't find PCs.  Be neat if Jal also sold dung.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Reiloth on October 13, 2016, 06:39:45 PM
You can still forage for salt. The deposits are a nice addition too, because some of the types of salt can be more rare (and desirable) but sitting around hacking at a deposit all day long has middling results.

I find the danger inherent with jobs that require you to be outside of the city -- Salting can lead to interaction, be it with PC or NPC threats, as well as the threat of dehydration, weather conditions, and so on.

Spice sifting is similarly very dangerous, unless you are a Mul. And if you're a Mul that's a warrior without direction sense, you will get fucked one day by a storm. Beetles, storms...It's a very Zalanthan job. In fact, the hopelessness of finding 150 grains to turn in is like...The epitome of ArmageddonMUD to me. I love playing a Red Stormer for that very reason. You feel like the bottom end cog, and when you see people sniffing pinches or smoking you're like...Fuck me.

Clay/Cotton/Dung Sweeping and Picking...The mindless aspect of this is what drives me away from pursuing these jobs as an Indy. The lack of chance interaction or danger turns it into a grind. The only recommendation i'd have here is to put the locations of these sites in contentious areas -- Not necessarily inside of the Labyrinth, but perhaps near it? Or to have areas rotate, or chances of finding/pulling up little nasty NPCs.




As to new jobs, i'd just like to see Caravans. Automated wagons, with the OOC caveat that PC Raiders understand they can't steal the wagons (it's just too game breaking, let's just say the locks are impossible to pick and the doors impossible to break down). They can however hold a wagon up, and rob the people inside if it is poorly guarded. Let's say there's always a pair of beefy NPC guards, and they're sentinel so they can't just be shot at from outside the wagon.

Creating a dynamic series of jobs -- People can be hired to guard the Caravan (with a maximum quota of say three PCs). People can pay for passage, either in the lower deck or higher deck (depending on their money, or even on their status (if they are a part of a House or GMH). People can be hired to be a server (more on this below).

Caravans leave twice a RL day, once in the EST morning and once in the EST evening, to start, it goes from Allanak to Luirs, Luirs to Morins, Morins to Luirs, and Luirs to Allanak. See if this works, if so, maybe offer smaller caravan choices to Blackwing and Cenyr, more dangerous.




People have been curious as to a PC job as a server at a tavern. My thought is -- What if a PC (one PC at a time) could be hired by the Bartender to help them tend bar. They would then for all intents and purposes become an animated NPC -- They would become the Shop List for the tavern, so when people come in and type 'list', it has this PC serving for the bar. All of the money goes to the actual Bartender NPC. You can't leave the bar without ending your shift.

If people try to list from the bartender, they say they're too busy and to ask 'sdesc' over there'. It would be a timed shift (say a RL hour), and the PC could end the shift by typing 'end shift'. At the end of their shift, the bartender gives them a flat % of the objects they sold, with a minimum (say 50 coins). So a popular server at a tavern could bring in more money by having their friends come by and buy drinks (realistic) or on a slow night, they make the minimum and call it a day. Maybe the minimum can't be reached unless you do the whole shift.

Perhaps status comes into effect -- You can't serve a shift at Red's Retreat unless you're a member of the Atrium, or someone of at least a modicum of status. But you can do a shift at the Gaj, even if you're a Bynner. You can't serve a shift at the Folley unless you're a member of the Guild. You can't serve a shift at the elf bar, unless you are an elf, etc.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 13, 2016, 08:13:36 PM
The new method of salting basically requires you to have a mount.
Which I'm not necessarily against, I don't play elves so not for that reason, but fuck mounts.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Culinary Critic on October 13, 2016, 09:12:26 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2016, 10:11:57 AM
Quote from: Riev on October 13, 2016, 09:24:16 AM
Deposit hacking can be absolutely ridiculous, but most especially because the Mine's Pockets seem to be deeper than they used to be.
Salting is still good coin, but definitely not the "I just made 10,000 coins last year doing a thoroughly boring chore".
Clay, I only did in Tuluk, and was hardly ever worth it. Couldn't afford the water you'd waste after a day in there.

I think if anything were to be changed, it would be to make every job's "output" be monetarily worthwhile to crafters. Like cotton in Tuluk... you could get paid per boll, but if you wanted to keep it, you'd be charged... and then could charge -more- to a PC that wanted to be a spinster. With clay, some PCs would want that fresh wet clay. Obsidian mining, only at times and for limited use, glass so far as I know is just vendor trash. Dung could be dried for firestuffs but otherwise, its also vendor trash.

I like the jobs, especially when people don't need to leave the city but ARE stuck doing a thoroughly gross job just to get by. I'd just rather there be two avenues: Either sell to an NPC for a low level of coin and be relatively limited, or sell to PCs who might actually -want- those resources and will pay as much or more than the NPC so they don't have to spend a day getting it themselves.

Could you explain more on the Deposit hacking?  Are you meaning that it's easier to get coins from it?

Haven't read past page one, but totally agree with this.

With deposits of glass/sid (particularly glass) being findable really, really, REALLY close to the gates of Nak, it is REALLY easy for a PC with advanced+ forage skill to make far too much coin for a true commoner in little time.  Yes, it takes a long while to get forage there, but the work in grinding it easily keeps one fed, watered, housed and whored for the duration.  Having to travel to sid deposits out in the sand makes the risk higher and helps justify the reward.


Otherwise, I've not had much (any) experience with the new skinning code, but hunting/foraging has always seemed a good risk/reward balance from what I've seen.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 13, 2016, 10:12:23 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2016, 10:11:57 AM
I really like the idea of turning in items for a return of another item, rather than coins.  This is actually something we've talked about staff side, it's actually really exciting to see others bring this idea up.  Would you think this could be used for multiple of the jobs out there?  I personally look at the existing jobs not as a constant source of coins, but a great place for someone getting started to make coins.  Just thowring this out there, but maybe the Allanak "Jobs" give a chit for your work, and you turn the chit in for food, water, tools, or maybe some coins, but you'd get a reduced amount of coins, the value of it would be from the objects you could get.  Do you think that could work?  (Idea here, doesn't mean it will happen :P )

It could be used for multiple jobs, however I don't think it should be a 100% trade deal. People need spending cash so they can buy a round of ale for their pals at the bar, or impress the person they're wooing by buying them a gift at a shop or from a PC merchant, save up for a mount, save up to pay the 225-sid rent on their cheapo apartment, etc. etc. They need sids for that. They don't need to get rich, but they do need pocket change, at the very least. That's why I'm saying bonuses. They'd still get paid in sids, but they'd also get a bonus if they bring OVER a certain max.

For instance (hypothetical):
2 sids per lump of clay.
Make the max 60 lumps.
If they bring in a full bag, they get 150 sids (at 2 sids per) plus they can fill any one waterskin from empty to full. Grey water, but cheap. One bag-bonus per digger, per game-day.

Spice: 4 sids per grain.
At the current rate of acquisition vs. reward, make the max 50 grains.
If they get more than 50-75 grains in the same delivery, give them the 4 sids each - so 200 sids.. plus a free waterskin refill. If they get 76-100 grains, they get the 4 sids per grain, plus a free waterskin refill, plus one siltfruit, and one half-price jug of spiced ale at the bar. Over 100 sids, they get all that, plus the jug of ale is free.

Or sure, they could trade in their "bonuses" for "store credits." That way vivaduans, friends of vivaduans, and clanned folks who get their waterskins filled free anyway, wouldn't roll their eyes at the bonuses. They could get something else instead if they'd prefer, of equal value (like a single mug of ale, or a mini kalan tart, or similar).
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 14, 2016, 12:08:22 AM
If you could get tokens that would get you something fancy but not too fancy, something like a silt fruit but more nakki, that'd be cool a f.

Maybe if you sell a certain amount of obsidian or glass to the templar over the course of your life you get a fancy token, like purple salts at a certain vendor, and after x tokens you get a better pick axe or maybe a fancy pickaxe.
Maybe even a patch.
Just for funsies.


I'd prefer fancy fruits tho.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: evilcabbage on October 14, 2016, 01:30:01 AM
lizzie you get the hell away from my spice sifting you evil cat, that's already dangerous and already doesn't pay a whole lot of money even with 50 grains.

no. just no. spice sifting takes forever, it's generally an all day task to fill 50 grains up, and you run the risk of a) being raided, b) having random silt beasts murdering you, or c*) a fuck you sandstorm rolling in.

spice sifting doesn't need looking at. other things definitely do. like salting, apparently. what's the deal with that?

and glass mining. glass should NOT spawn right outside the city gates, that's just insane. it really shouldn't even spawn in the south anymore, it should be spawning up north. because volcano. and heat.


* only if not a ranger.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 14, 2016, 01:32:15 AM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 14, 2016, 01:30:01 AM
lizzie you get the hell away from my spice sifting you evil cat, that's already dangerous and already doesn't pay a whole lot of money even with 50 grains.

no. just no. spice sifting takes forever, it's generally an all day task to fill 50 grains up, and you run the risk of a) being raided, b) having random silt beasts murdering you, or c*) a fuck you sandstorm rolling in.

spice sifting doesn't need looking at. other things definitely do. like salting, apparently. what's the deal with that?

and glass mining. glass should NOT spawn right outside the city gates, that's just insane. it really shouldn't even spawn in the south anymore, it should be spawning up north. because volcano. and heat.


* only if not a ranger.
There used to be a volcano near nak.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 14, 2016, 06:35:30 AM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 14, 2016, 01:30:01 AM
lizzie you get the hell away from my spice sifting you evil cat, that's already dangerous and already doesn't pay a whole lot of money even with 50 grains.

no. just no. spice sifting takes forever, it's generally an all day task to fill 50 grains up, and you run the risk of a) being raided, b) having random silt beasts murdering you, or c*) a fuck you sandstorm rolling in.

spice sifting doesn't need looking at. other things definitely do. like salting, apparently. what's the deal with that?

and glass mining. glass should NOT spawn right outside the city gates, that's just insane. it really shouldn't even spawn in the south anymore, it should be spawning up north. because volcano. and heat.


* only if not a ranger.

What are you going on about? Did you even read my post or are you just role-playing on the GDB again? I said my idea would involve BONUSES. That means - you get what you already get for sifting spice. That doesn't change. But if you get MORE than a certain amount, you ALSO get a non-coin bonus.

So instead of getting 200 sids for ( x ) amount of spice, you get 200 sids AND a free skin of water.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: a french mans shirt on October 14, 2016, 07:42:35 AM
I didn't read all these posts, but two things I've found are pretty coin-grabby for the risk.

Finding glass deposits two leagues outside the city. (which like ten people have said.)

Mining basalt for gems that it easily drops. (This might have been changed recently. But for a few RL days, you were finding gobs of high-end gems.)

Tailoring I'd forgive because otherwise no one would ever get their hands on a skimmer.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2016, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2016, 04:25:10 PM
So lets focus on Salting... more so I am talking about current Salting, after the new changes that were put in.  Why do you not use Salting now?  Would you rather it was back the way it was before?  If we had it like before, how would you suggest we change it so people are not walking away with a large in 'sid each time?  Is Salting too dangerous compared to the rewards now?  Can a Solo newbie survive off of salting right now, how about a Solo Veteran?

So attempting to get this back on topic... I asked about Salting.  At the moment I have no need for information on "new", so anything you are providing, while I do appreciate the information, I have no need for and won't be using it.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Inks on October 14, 2016, 09:13:39 AM
Salting is good as is now. I tried it on a pc and you could still make good coin, but the risk was higher due to raider/ scrab/mek chances, definately not a macro semi-afk task like it potentially totally used to be.

You can still make easy coin but the risk is always present now and would be unwise to salt without a mount, I very much appreciate the change.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 14, 2016, 09:14:10 AM
I have done the new version of salting in passing. I think the main issue is that it's a hike for PCs without mounts. If you have a mount you can essentially travel half the Known in one stent, but if you are trying to play a more city centric character it kind of became impossible to wander out to the salt and pick away at it before wandering back in the late afternoon, like I imagine droves of VNPC grabbers doing. I like the idea of the patches and the early salt fairly clean picked, but I think you guys kinda screwed yourself with the early architecture of how the salts is for that reason alone.

Furthermore, you won't see more than a fraction of mounted characters salting because it's not particularly lucrative, fun, or progressive for one's character, unlike hunting or my personal favorite trade caravanning.

As an aside, hopefully not one that takes us off track again, there ABSOLUTELY are things that from the North can be sold at a premium in the south. It's just not skins or wood, some of the most plentiful things in the North, I know. I rationalized this by saying Allanak did chop down all of that wood in the Valley and probably also supplements mek bone and styrax for most projects, creating only slight demand for wood. And as far as the skin prices go, Allanak is essentially the center of the Known, it's reasonable to believe there are bigger better hunting parties underselling you. The vice versa is also the same, with PLENTY of goods that sell like hotcakes in Morin's and Luirs as well. However, I do think that yes, it could use some staff insight in a few locations, Allanak included.

Disclaimer: A lot of opinion.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Malken on October 14, 2016, 09:31:01 AM
My top 3 way to make coins in a crazy way and to abuse the livin' krath out of is:

#1 - Tailoring in Red Storm - Do we even need to explain why? The only "danger" to it are all the Allanakis that go to Red Storm to make their daily 1000+ sids and then head back to Allanak for the rp. This is especially popular with gemmers.

#2 - Spice sifting - I think I'm probably the reason for the recent change because I loved smashing my repeat command each time I'd forage up a spice mound and tried to get as much spice as my computer would allow before it vanished again. Then I'd just head back in Storm, rest a little and do it again. Making a small fortune that way was super easy. After the changes I've never really played again so I don't know how it affected it. I tried it I think once or twice but it wasn't worth it anymore.

#3 - Well, with clay digging, you can just set up a macro and then fall asleep in front of your keyboard. Sure, you won't make a lot but you'll probably wake up with more than enough to be able to buy water and food, so if you're playing a poor dude or just to rp, that's a good way to go around the annoying part of the code that makes you seek out jobs n' stuff.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2016, 09:37:22 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 14, 2016, 09:31:01 AM
My top 3 way to make coins in a crazy way and to abuse the livin' krath out of is:

#1 - Tailoring in Red Storm - Do we even need to explain why? The only "danger" to it are all the Allanakis that go to Red Storm to make their daily 1000+ sids and then head back to Allanak for the rp. This is especially popular with gemmers.

#2 - Spice sifting - I think I'm probably the reason for the recent change because I loved smashing my repeat command each time I'd forage up a spice mound and tried to get as much spice as my computer would allow before it vanished again. Then I'd just head back in Storm, rest a little and do it again. Making a small fortune that way was super easy. After the changes I've never really played again so I don't know how it affected it. I tried it I think once or twice but it wasn't worth it anymore.

#3 - Well, with clay digging, you can just set up a macro and then fall asleep in front of your keyboard. Sure, you won't make a lot but you'll probably wake up with more than enough to be able to buy water and food, so if you're playing a poor dude or just to rp, that's a good way to go around the annoying part of the code that makes you seek out jobs n' stuff.

Thank you for being blunt honest on that, it's appreciated.  Just going to note #3 because well... making a macro to do that is against the rules.  Clay digging is that mindnumbing task, which I think is fitting because well... digging in a clay pit should be tough and mindnumbing, and you get a small amount for it.  Though I've seen some good RP on people needing large amounts of it.  I will be straight out honest, with some of the changes we've made with Players building stuff in the game, clay and rock have been the primary materials to make them.  No more major wooden structures in the south, as it just doesn't fit the theme of the area of the game world.

So some are saying Salting is find as it is, it may require a mount.  Has anyone tried to just salt at the edge of the flats at all?  I know you can still do it, but to be honest I have not done it myself, so I am unsure if of how much coins you can make.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Inks on October 14, 2016, 10:07:59 AM
I didn't make much if anything from not digging a deposit. My forage wasn't above Journeyman so interested in what other had to say. I like it as is now as stated.

The red storm tailor is easily, vastly, the most broken job IG, as a well skilled combat PC you can clear the alleys out and sell the sandcloth gear ad infinitum too.

Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Malken on October 14, 2016, 10:40:09 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2016, 09:37:22 AM
Thank you for being blunt honest on that, it's appreciated.  Just going to note #3 because well... making a macro to do that is against the rules.  Clay digging is that mindnumbing task, which I think is fitting because well... digging in a clay pit should be tough and mindnumbing, and you get a small amount for it.  Though I've seen some good RP on people needing large amounts of it.  I will be straight out honest, with some of the changes we've made with Players building stuff in the game, clay and rock have been the primary materials to make them.  No more major wooden structures in the south, as it just doesn't fit the theme of the area of the game world.

By macro I should probably have said script. You know, when instead of typing the command itself when you grab, say, a yellow sandstone and starting to forage once more, you have a script that makes you forage automatically each time you grab something but you're still in front of the monitor paying some attention to what goes on. I thought that was legal'ish?

If it's not then I can guarantee you that at least 90% of your foraging players are breaking that rule. As a staff member, watch the next 10 foraging PCs you come across and I can guarantee you that a vast majority of them will be picking and re-foraging stuff up with a perfectly automated rhythm.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Delirium on October 14, 2016, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 14, 2016, 10:40:09 AM
By macro I should probably have said script. You know, when instead of typing the command itself when you grab, say, a yellow sandstone and starting to forage once more, you have a script that makes you forage automatically each time you grab something but you're still in front of the monitor paying some attention to what goes on. I thought that was legal'ish?

Scripting used to be illegal but it is now permitted as long as you are there and paying attention, I recall that announcement.

I'm just too lazy to set one up so I just avoid foraging style jobs unless it's something I absolutely need to do, then I just make sure I have a good tv show going on in the background. :P There's a certain amount of repetition I don't mind but foraging blows past it quick.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: a french mans shirt on October 14, 2016, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: Inks on October 14, 2016, 10:07:59 AM
I didn't make much if anything from not digging a deposit. My forage wasn't above Journeyman so interested in what other had to say. I like it as is now as stated.

For some reason in the past two days (I've been mining on some pcs for a long time) the drops of 'large chunks' from mining has about doubled. This might be to help out miners who complain about the danger and don't get enough for their efforts (when you are like me and don't forage rock for glass to weed out the obsidian deposits.) I like the way it is now, maybe the way it was a little bit better. You do better than a dung scraper and less than a salter, which is where I think they should be.

If the rooms closest to the east and west gates were to simply never have deposits of either glass or sid, I think it would be more realistic. I'm not talking that far out; miners should probably be in less danger than salters. Like the rooms of the forest closer to the gates of Tuluk: all the good trees have been cut down close by.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 14, 2016, 11:58:35 AM
I'm going to be honest, I had no idea the forage table included uncovering the deposits until someone in game said "I just found it" and I was like "NO WONDER I CAN NEVER FIND THEM ANYMORE!"

Yeah, I think that might need to be looked into.


Salt grebbing wouldn't be so bad, if you bring the right tools, and find the right patches. I've only seen -one- of those 'right' patches before, and didn't have a shovel with me. That poor mutant must be so poor for crystals.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: lostinspace on October 14, 2016, 01:29:39 PM
I've only had one character good at mining deposits, and they were pretty damn good at it. It wasn't really the sort of character to haul those stones into market. As it stood if I put an in game day into it I could hack out multiple rare gems. It was almost at the point that my tribal was considering paying for things in gems instead of coins. Mostly I just feel that deposits shouldn't spawn in caves when foraging, the ability to rest so quickly in caves makes the stamina cost of using the hacker a non issue. As much as I like the idea of just dumping a pouch of gems into someone's hands as payment, there is very little risk involved.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Cabooze on October 14, 2016, 05:40:42 PM
chalton = sids
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 14, 2016, 05:55:01 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on October 14, 2016, 05:40:42 PM
chalton = sids

I played a herdsman recently, and can report that I did not get rich.  I think the chalton is pretty nicely balanced -- the shops fill up fast, and don't pay that much.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Cabooze on October 14, 2016, 07:42:53 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 14, 2016, 05:55:01 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on October 14, 2016, 05:40:42 PM
chalton = sids

I played a herdsman recently, and can report that I did not get rich.  I think the chalton is pretty nicely balanced -- the shops fill up fast, and don't pay that much.

There are stores you do not know about, then.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Inks on October 14, 2016, 08:15:56 PM
Quote from: a french mans shirt on October 14, 2016, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: Inks on October 14, 2016, 10:07:59 AM
I didn't make much if anything from not digging a deposit. My forage wasn't above Journeyman so interested in what other had to say. I like it as is now as stated.

For some reason in the past two days (I've been mining on some pcs for a long time) the drops of 'large chunks' from mining has about doubled. This might be to help out miners who complain about the danger and don't get enough for their efforts (when you are like me and don't forage rock for glass to weed out the obsidian deposits.) I like the way it is now, maybe the way it was a little bit better. You do better than a dung scraper and less than a salter, which is where I think they should be.

If the rooms closest to the east and west gates were to simply never have deposits of either glass or sid, I think it would be more realistic. I'm not talking that far out; miners should probably be in less danger than salters. Like the rooms of the forest closer to the gates of Tuluk: all the good trees have been cut down close by.

Sorry I should have clarified, I was responding to Ath's question specifically about salt.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 15, 2016, 01:23:27 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys and gals , it's greatly appreciated.  I like the idea of changing up where deposits spawns for mining, that is an interesting concept... it's also kinda how things work a bit on the Salt.  Tools... I think tools could be of interest also, espeicaly with salt deposits.  Very good feedback here.

So we know of some things we need to really look at.

So I want to go into this chit system idea that came up, I'll be honest, I like the sound of it.  So I already can see that people want to be able to get coins, but I'm thinking it shouldn't be the main value.  Water can definitely be on there and maybe food.  Do you guys have any idea what else could be handed out with this chit system?  Lets look at both Red Storm and Allanak if something like this was offered.  Maybe you can get an upgrade spice sifter in Red Storm, while Allanak could have some better tools you can trade chits in for.  So maybe you work hard at this "job" of yours, you can find yourself "upgrading" things.  What do you think of these chits being an actual objects?  So maybe they can be stolen, or sold even... though I doubt many would sell them because we'd have a low amount of what they'd be offered for at NPC that took them.

Once again, this is all conceptual and may never see the light of day... but I really do enjoy chatting about it.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Kankman on October 15, 2016, 01:51:31 PM
First off I just want to say that the poop code is the best thing that ever happened in Armageddon and the person who thought it up was clearly a genius.

Now to the important, nitty gritty.

The Allanaki Chit for Shit program has the potential to be a game changer of monumental proportion.

Now, let's not get bogged down in the minutiae of whether we should call it Chit for Shit, or Shit for Chit. The basics are clear: hand in shit, get a chit. Piggy-backing off of the wildly popular purple palmful for token code, and keeping in mind that some genius thought of making those soapstone coins flippable, shit-chits, as they will colloquially become known, should be exchanged right there at the dung-buyer for such fantastic items as:

1) a pair of big, waxed-cotton overboots - boots to slip on over your boots while you're wading in feces
2) a pair of big, waxed-cotton gloves - gloves to keep the shit-smellin' off your hands
3) a big, wide-bladed shit shovel - a shovel with +7 SP (Shit Points, of course)
3) a big, wide-bladed shit shovel with a smooth handle - a shovel with +7 SP and -3 BC (Blister Chances)

This whole operation could go down one of two ways.

Either the Supreme Overbeing of Allanak pulls the Big Government move of centralizing everything in a terribly inefficient act of socialism and we've got a Central Dispersal Office where shit-chit wielding Citizens line up like they were hoping for a loaf of bread, while the Commissar of Dispensary slowly tallies shit-chits and hands out the daily compensations, or...

The Entrepreneurial Extravaganza of shit-chits only being cashed in with the dung-buyer. The clay-coins only being good for the clay-buyers, etc.

Miners could pass in their sid-bits for water, sure, the Highlord MAKES water in Allanak. But they rest? Water is just as valuable to a dung-buyer as it is to a dung-grebber. Giving that stuff away is crazy! And what does the Highlord care that you've picked up some dung? Does he really care enough to give you water? Is it really such a civil service? No! Go die in the sands!

And thus, my confusing vote for shit-chit entrepreneurial extravaganza has been cast.

Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: flurry on October 15, 2016, 02:03:07 PM
I love the idea of certain jobs allowing you to earn items that fit that occupation. Also I really like the concept of having options of how to use the chits/credits you earn. The NPC with the cleaning fluid comes to mind, because (if I remember correctly) there's no incentive to go through that more than once.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 15, 2016, 02:11:46 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 15, 2016, 01:23:27 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys and gals , it's greatly appreciated.  I like the idea of changing up where deposits spawns for mining, that is an interesting concept... it's also kinda how things work a bit on the Salt.  Tools... I think tools could be of interest also, espeicaly with salt deposits.  Very good feedback here.

So we know of some things we need to really look at.

So I want to go into this chit system idea that came up, I'll be honest, I like the sound of it.  So I already can see that people want to be able to get coins, but I'm thinking it shouldn't be the main value.  Water can definitely be on there and maybe food.  Do you guys have any idea what else could be handed out with this chit system?  Lets look at both Red Storm and Allanak if something like this was offered.  Maybe you can get an upgrade spice sifter in Red Storm, while Allanak could have some better tools you can trade chits in for.  So maybe you work hard at this "job" of yours, you can find yourself "upgrading" things.  What do you think of these chits being an actual objects?  So maybe they can be stolen, or sold even... though I doubt many would sell them because we'd have a low amount of what they'd be offered for at NPC that took them.

Once again, this is all conceptual and may never see the light of day... but I really do enjoy chatting about it.

I disagree that coins shouldn't be the main value. That would just be a way of driving all the independents into clans. All you need to get free food and water in a clan, is to be hired. If you're hired into a hunting crew, after the first year, you get free food and water, plus you get paid, plus if you have a day off you could go mining for extra spending money. THAT, to me, is the point. The chit idea was intended to be to make it easier for grebbers who greb for sids, to not have to pour those sids right back into food and water.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: The Warshaper on October 15, 2016, 03:35:41 PM
Chit man... this could really help out new players.

If chits are given out to folks who salt, mine, pick cotton, gather clay ect it could really be an opportunity to let newer players start off as independents and eventually ease into a clanned job. Food and water would be great, as a newer player myself that was always the real struggle due to lacking any in game knowledge. A new player can learn the process of gathering then also manage to support themselves with food and water so they don't feel pressured into a clanned role they may not had in mind.  I had to spend every moment online gathering with my character gathering which they were apparently terrible at, just to not die of hunger and thirst. That was tedious and if I wasn't an RPI survival nut probably would've turned me off to Arm.

We have to remember it's a very different experience for a newer player before scoffing at such issues. If done correctly roughly a days worth of rations from a days worth of work would suffice. The coin generated from selling could go into equipment which for the most part would help with longevity and a sense of investment/ownership.  Being very good at your job could net you more chits that could be used towards tools optionally once you're not worrying where your next sip of water is going to come from.  (I really like the tools idea.)

Offering my two cents, make the chits universal. This promotes player to player cooperation/conflict. Example I mine deposits and turn them in for chits but I know this guy who salts and needs a good shovel that he would trade to me for sids or goods that we haggle the value over. Or I have been watching who's coming and going for some time from the labor office and know Bob the miner has a fat sack of chits on him that I could use to get a meal or water with, or maybe some tools that seem to be very popular with certain folks to sell.

Shops could offer their own rewards for chits, conversely I think the smarter and easier way to go about it is to station a blue robe in a building who trades specifically in chit rewards. Someone mentioned gith scalps for chits? Hells yeah. Throw a few weapons and armor pieces up there. Think along the lines of "Better than what the player started with, but not so amazeballs they still won't want to trade with the Merchant Houses for what would be offered at the chit office.

If chits are rewarded base on quantity brought in on top of coin then this would seriously support the independent/new playerbase. We may also see alot less storing of characters who took on entry level jobs they just will never enjoy.


/Derail
I'm worried some may see this as softcore but hey, we've been hollering and screaming for folks to vote and barely hanging in the top 10? Go Vote ya Dirty Bastids
/End Derail

High end tools could take RL months saving for, I'm not sure how these tools would be effect the game economy but I've not yet met a PC tool merchant. Anyways I'm rambling now.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 15, 2016, 03:42:56 PM
No one's scoffing at the idea of chits, so far as I can tell. What I'm concerned with is the idea that *replacing* coin for chits that can only be used to trade for specific commissary items is a bad idea. Why? Because it rewards ONLY new, unclanned characters. It says "this job is ONLY for new folks. People who've been around awhile, or who want to maybe buy a drink at the Gaj, or buy a new weapon at the Salarr shop, or buy spice in Red Storm, or a nifty tribal bracelet in Luirs, or are already in clans that give them free food and water won't gain anything from it, so don't bother."
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: The Warshaper on October 15, 2016, 04:57:41 PM
Quote from: The Warshaper on October 15, 2016, 03:35:41 PM

If chits are rewarded base on quantity brought in on top of coin then this would seriously support the independent/new playerbase. We may also see alot less storing of characters who took on entry level jobs they just will never enjoy.


Just... read the entire post Lizzie.

Also, no one is scoffing at the idea of chits, I was making mention of newer players struggling to support themselves by buying food and water. No idea where you got that from.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 15, 2016, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: The Warshaper on October 15, 2016, 03:35:41 PM
We have to remember it's a very different experience for a newer player before scoffing at such issues.

I got it from there. I did read the whole post. I agree with you. I'm emphasizing that I don't think any of these new-player experiences that inspire the idea of using chits are being scoffed at. I was actually wondering where you got the idea from :)
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Kankman on October 15, 2016, 09:40:28 PM
If chits are universal then we're just adding another currency and they make themselves redundant. Why not just exchange coins?
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 15, 2016, 10:56:54 PM
Quote from: Kankman on October 15, 2016, 09:40:28 PM
If chits are universal then we're just adding another currency and they make themselves redundant. Why not just exchange coins?

Another reason to not make it universal and instead, provide just a bonus on top of the usual sids, so that they don't have to turn around and spend the sids on the things that the bonuses provide (which are survival necessities - food/water - and/or a cup of ale at the local bar).
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 15, 2016, 10:59:50 PM
The idea behind Jobs are not permanent things to do.  None of them make as much as doing other things like joining a clan, become an indie group, hunting with people and selling your goods, or being a crafter and selling your good also.  The Jobs are a good way to get by in the beginning, low risk, low reward.  Salt for example was used prior to make a living, I specifically remember playing with people that would go out as a group and make a large or more easy doing it, that's been changed.  It's still possible, but it would require a group to go do so and there is much more risk involved.  Risk vs Reward, that is the main balancing factor.

What we're talking about here is a way for one to get something for what they do, without just coins being the main focus.  You still get coins, but you also get other things that can be useful to someone getting their start.  Maybe a bow, a shovel, tools, arrows.. there are several potentials here.  Yes, joining a Clan can be the easy way out to get food and water, but remove that factor at the moment, that isn't the focus here.  Clans will always be the easy way, but not everyone wants the easy way.  Secondarily a new player will get things a bit easier also.

Quote from: Kankman on October 15, 2016, 09:40:28 PM
If chits are universal then we're just adding another currency and they make themselves redundant. Why not just exchange coins?

The idea we're talking about is that the jobs will pay out in chits that will give rewards that you can choose from.  Putting emphasis less on coins, but more on things that a character may need.  You will still get coins, but not as much as you would before.  You could still likely get a lot of coins I'm thinking, but it would take a bit more work than before.  Once again, this is all concept, idea, and discussion.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 15, 2016, 11:13:35 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 15, 2016, 10:59:50 PM
The idea behind Jobs are not permanent things to do.  None of them make as much as doing other things like joining a clan, become an indie group, hunting with people and selling your goods, or being a crafter and selling your good also.  The Jobs are a good way to get by in the beginning, low risk, low reward.  Salt for example was used prior to make a living, I specifically remember playing with people that would go out as a group and make a large or more easy doing it, that's been changed.  It's still possible, but it would require a group to go do so and there is much more risk involved.  Risk vs Reward, that is the main balancing factor.

What we're talking about here is a way for one to get something for what they do, without just coins being the main focus.  You still get coins, but you also get other things that can be useful to someone getting their start.  Maybe a bow, a shovel, tools, arrows.. there are several potentials here.  Yes, joining a Clan can be the easy way out to get food and water, but remove that factor at the moment, that isn't the focus here.  Clans will always be the easy way, but not everyone wants the easy way.  Secondarily a new player will get things a bit easier also.

Quote from: Kankman on October 15, 2016, 09:40:28 PM
If chits are universal then we're just adding another currency and they make themselves redundant. Why not just exchange coins?

The idea we're talking about is that the jobs will pay out in chits that will give rewards that you can choose from.  Putting emphasis less on coins, but more on things that a character may need.  You will still get coins, but not as much as you would before.  You could still likely get a lot of coins I'm thinking, but it would take a bit more work than before.  Once again, this is all concept, idea, and discussion.

The problem with this though Ath, is that "Jobs" are not within the exclusive domain of singular unclanned new characters. Clanned characters also have need of the raw materials provided by "Jobs." And so - a GMH merchant might send his hunters to greb for obsidian. Salarr makes copious use of obsidian, so does Kadius. Clay has a lot of recipes now that all three GMHs would find useful (clay spice pipes, anyone?). Not sure about salt, though one could say that all three GMHs need cleaning fluid, and you need salt for that. I suppose the GMH clan boss could order their employees to trade their chits in for arrows for their hunters. Clan sends their crew to collect 3 bags of purple salts. Crew collects that, plus five bags of other varieties of salt. Crew boss says "use the sids to buy yourselves a few joints in Red Storm." Crew members say "uh - they want to give us fifty sids and twenty arrows." Now what?


Of what use are chits to these characters, if they already have the "things" they need provided to them by their clans? What about clanned non-GMH characters - they also get everything they need from their employers - but sometimes their employers need to acquire some of these "jobs" things. There's always something left over when you greb for a clan, and telling them "fifty sids and your choice of a few arrows, or a waterskin, or a rope" isn't going to cut it. Better to say "Two hundred sids, which is what your grebbed product is actually worth, and here - have a delicious travel cake and a sip of water on the house." And let the new characters BUY what they need - giving them reason to learn their way around the shops.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Armaddict on October 16, 2016, 03:10:34 PM
I'm a little confused by the chit thing.

Salting causes a lot of thirst.  If every time you turned in a bundle worth more than <this> value, they refilled your waterskin, that would be good.  But if every time you did they gave you this other kind of currency that could be redeemed for sensible things for the profession, but not for these others...I think that might be overdoing it a little.  Multiple currencies may sound neato, but ultimately...I'd argue that's way -more- confusing for a newer type person, not easier.  While it's a neat workaround, I can't say I'm really that into it as it's been presented thusfar.  It seems like a very contrived system that wouldn't have really come about on its own, at least not without some loose guild of independent-trading running the thing (which we'd know from IC experiences just wouldn't be allowed by the GMH's).  Why -wouldn't- they just pay in coins?  End Addict essay so that I don't need a tl;dr.

Edit:  Basically, neat 'flavor' idea, but I don't see it fitting with 'how things are', nor really doing much other than adding something that establishes the same sort of relationship anyway.  Most people already use their coins for these things.  If I misunderstood the premise of the chit system, then whoops, but it really does just seem like something being thrown in with little gain.  If we're willing to take the time to script and build for all of this, then we've got time to script and build some other things that would likely do more.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 16, 2016, 08:48:18 PM
Honestly I'd be fine with there being some sort of "job center" area where all the jobs tend to turn in their stuff at once. Emporium style.

Then just had the salt-giving coin system but for minute things like food or full waterskins.

I'd murder someone over a few black soapstone coins.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 17, 2016, 08:12:29 AM
Alright, it seems there is some confusion here... the idea we've been talking about is Coins OR Items, with an emphasis on Items rather than Coins.  Coins will still be available, it won't be a mixture of both.  I get the concern and it makes complete sense, but the Job side of the whole system isn't supposed to be a primary way someone makes coins, it's suppose to enhance the many other things that have value with PC to PC interaction.  We'd never change it so that PCs couldn't go get items they need for crafting inside or outside a clan, I don't even see how that even got brought up here.  So a lot is being taken out of context when it comes to the explanation and it is starting to get a bit wild in assumptions, so I am going to change the topic now.

What are other things that PCs can do on their own to make a few coins around Allanak?  We know of the basic, automated methods, but are there things that can make a few coins for a new, solo PC?  What could be improved with those methods?  Once again, if it is some sort of secret-ish topic, I'd rather it not be brought up here.  If it is something very exploitable, please send in a request on that so it can be reviewed.  What I am looking for is more so other simple things that PCs can do as a "Job" to make a few coins for their starting PC.  Doesn't matter if it's a newb or not.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: valeria on October 17, 2016, 08:22:46 AM
It would be nice if someone could get coins, maybe 1 coin per, for picking up empty mugs around the bars and returning them to the barkeepers.  It would result in a very small amount of sid and get the clutter of mugs, etc, off the bars.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 17, 2016, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: valeria on October 17, 2016, 08:22:46 AM
It would be nice if someone could get coins, maybe 1 coin per, for picking up empty mugs around the bars and returning them to the barkeepers.  It would result in a very small amount of sid and get the clutter of mugs, etc, off the bars.

That'd be awesome, *except* during those times when the bar is full and lots of screen scroll is already going on. Most players know to hold up on the bar-clearing activities til the RP slows down. Some don't know, or know, but don't really understand that spam-cleaning is just as annoying to watch during "a scene" as spam-getting-20-feathers-from-your-bag-filled-with-stuff and giving them to the guy buying them. The guy with the feathers -could- just go to another room and do the spamming where there's not a "scene" occurring in the bar. But the guy clearing the bar -in- the bar - can't do that.

I'm all for making a coin or two by cleaning up, and I'm fine with spam, as long as I'm not trying to pay attention to something other than the spam :)
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 17, 2016, 09:33:26 AM
What if, similar to poop code/deposit spawns, there were like... "a small/moderate/large pile of dirt and refuse" items that could grow around the city. Put in a need for actual street sweepers to come in with a broom? I know currently there's no way to make that into coin, but its an idea. Tell a new PC they're the new Streetsweeper for all of Dragon's Path and Wall Road, and they have to check it once in a while.

Then if it gets to a large pile of refuse on the side of Wall Road, you know who isn't doing their job?
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 17, 2016, 09:57:32 AM
Quote from: Riev on October 17, 2016, 09:33:26 AM
What if, similar to poop code/deposit spawns, there were like... "a small/moderate/large pile of dirt and refuse" items that could grow around the city. Put in a need for actual street sweepers to come in with a broom? I know currently there's no way to make that into coin, but its an idea. Tell a new PC they're the new Streetsweeper for all of Dragon's Path and Wall Road, and they have to check it once in a while.

Then if it gets to a large pile of refuse on the side of Wall Road, you know who isn't doing their job?

Well, honestly... for a RP action like that, any Leadership role could probably pull something like that off.  I remember back in the day there was a certain Templar that made a group called the street sweepers to keep Tuluk clean, it was an interesting RP tool to be honest, and the PCs got paid for it.

I do like the idea of putting in a few other simple automated tasks, but I'd rather look at systems that can be improved upon at the current.  Are there ways people make a bit of cash when they start out their new character outside the automated tasks?  Maybe just selling stuff to NPC merchants?  How about this, is the current documentation on Jobs written well?  Do they explain it properly?
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: evilcabbage on October 17, 2016, 10:32:46 AM
make a chit system similar to deposits in nenyuk, only you go to a npc salesperson or whatever, and "deposit" your chits - and you get points. so the person goes deposit 12 chit

npcs says, in sirihish,
     "You now have twelve points."

list

For sale at NPC merchant:
A long-handled, tipped shovel for 5 points.
A dark-orange, hooded cloak for 10 points.
A meal ticket for 12 points.
A water ticket for 15 points.


things like that. the meal ticket can be exchanged at the same vendor with "exchange ticket" for a full meal. that is one or two pieces of a relatively filling meal, and a *small* flask of water. or a water ticket which provides a skin of water.

and each chit also exchanges out for 2 or 3 coins. how does that sound?
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 17, 2016, 10:34:53 AM
I always figured there would be more rock breakers. I mean, I suppose this is already filled by slaves IG, but I can easily see a job where you use the forage code and make big rocks into little rocks before turning them in for minor stipends.

A chunk of my characters would just stone greb and, yeah, sell garnets and amethysts to the stonecarver NPCs. This is performed like right outside of the maingate. By this point that area must be so clean picked its either a comically huge divet or something something spontaneous generation.

Edit: The above post sounds like a pretty decent system.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: valeria on October 17, 2016, 11:27:37 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 17, 2016, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: valeria on October 17, 2016, 08:22:46 AM
It would be nice if someone could get coins, maybe 1 coin per, for picking up empty mugs around the bars and returning them to the barkeepers.  It would result in a very small amount of sid and get the clutter of mugs, etc, off the bars.

That'd be awesome, *except* during those times when the bar is full and lots of screen scroll is already going on. Most players know to hold up on the bar-clearing activities til the RP slows down. Some don't know, or know, but don't really understand that spam-cleaning is just as annoying to watch during "a scene" as spam-getting-20-feathers-from-your-bag-filled-with-stuff and giving them to the guy buying them. The guy with the feathers -could- just go to another room and do the spamming where there's not a "scene" occurring in the bar. But the guy clearing the bar -in- the bar - can't do that.

I'm all for making a coin or two by cleaning up, and I'm fine with spam, as long as I'm not trying to pay attention to something other than the spam :)


Just so we're clear, I absolutely wouldn't want the return place to be IN the bar itself. Both lower-end bars have kitchen-esque areas that are less busy.

I know you're talking about picking the mugs up, too, but I think any annoyance there could be handled through RP.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: path on October 17, 2016, 12:10:35 PM
Automated Jobs VS Twinking
I wish all the automated jobs were fun. Part of that means getting a meaningful payout for them and I know that would leave it open to people who are going to twink it out and get rich doing something menial. We don't want to see all these salt grebbers dressed in sparkle armor.

I propose we make another addition to the karma acquisition list that went something like, Compelling Portrayal of Poverty. This would encourage players to get down and dirty and reenforce poverty as a game wide theme by rewarding good role play! YES!

We should not design the game to prevent unrealistic roleplay. We should design it with fun in mind. I dug clay once. Never again, my friends. If I were a newb, many of these jobs would be a fast way to turn me off the game forever, especially if they become any more difficult, less lucrative, time consuming and spammy. I think all jobs should be playtested by experienced staff or players and anything currently boring should be made easier or have extra echos and interaction added in. This discussion is good but nothing beats a straight forward conversation in realtime.

Finally, I think it's cool to be able to play a career menial laborer. Not just use them to get a foot up.

Alternate Compensation
I love the idea of anything that makes playing a newbie simpler and more intuitive, so a waterskin as a bonus to a full salt sack or sifter or clay bucket would be really cool. Long have I wanted water to be a form of payment.

Secondary Jobs
I love valeria's idea about the mugs.

It would be fun if you could sell rat corpses by the firepit in the Gaj.

What if you could help in the kitchen areas in those taverns.. Your ldesc would change. There would be a series of alternating echos or interaction from a cook NPC in there with you, or a talk script, or both. You wouldn't be able to Way or use other skills besides speak and emote while you were cooking. It would take say...five minutes and you'd make fifteen coin and a sack of flour.

I mentioned pulling rags off corpses in the rinth. This is high on my list of currently available fun jobs.

Has anyone else noticed that the crafting values are wonky? I pay this much for a ruby, craft it with some ivory I bought into a ring that ends up being work less than the original uncrafted ruby, nevermind the ivory and labor. This happens even when I use barter. It ends up being that there are one or two good crafts per material where my PC can make a buck. I wish all of them were at least a little lucrative.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 17, 2016, 12:14:41 PM
Inspired by Path's post (and the chitin idea):

Perhaps you could have the vendors that purchase items from automated tasks (glass/obsidian templar, Jal shit guy, Salt guy, rinth clothing gal) offer you some very basic things rather than coins:

o Simple food.
o Torch.
o Water.
o Ale.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 17, 2016, 01:06:38 PM
Don't forget tools. As it stands the only way to get a shovel in Allanak is to buy it from the beginner shop or luck out that someone sold one off at some point. Which might also be a reason for so few salters.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: path on October 17, 2016, 01:38:19 PM
We need a shop that sells shovels. I don't think they're OP.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: evilcabbage on October 17, 2016, 02:25:16 PM
so we want to make karma acquisition an even -more- complicated system than it already is...

by adding a subset of "ability to roleplay"?

because roleplaying poverty in a believable manner basically falls under ability to roleplay.

let's try not to overcomplicate karma and focus on what this thread is actually about.


also, a rock turn-in would be nice for chits. blockies are worth three, heads are worth two, hands are worth one.

then you turn those in for meal and water tokens, or maybe even coins if you so choose.

i don't think anyone wants to see coins go away - because without these jobs, how exactly do you get coins? you craft something, or find stuff and sell it to a shop that may already have been filled up or sold out of coins because of some lucky guy basically selling shit to get EVERY SINGLE LAST COIN?

without jobs offering coins, there's almost no way to actually get money that doesn't rely on PCs who already have a finite amount of coin to actually offer.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 17, 2016, 02:39:19 PM
I'm just all for jobs that require skills/talents that EVERYONE can have. While you may not be great at it, everyone can attempt skinning, or foraging, or cooking. This is why rock breaking, mining, dung shoveling... they're all great ideas because even if you don't pick a skillset with any crafting, you can still find a way to pull coin out of the game.

Worse comes to worse, there IS always murder. I don't think people murder enough NPCs because "I really wanted that needle case".
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: path on October 17, 2016, 02:43:08 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 17, 2016, 02:39:19 PM
I'm just all for jobs that require skills/talents that EVERYONE can have. While you may not be great at it, everyone can attempt skinning, or foraging, or cooking. This is why rock breaking, mining, dung shoveling... they're all great ideas because even if you don't pick a skillset with any crafting, you can still find a way to pull coin out of the game.

Worse comes to worse, there IS always murder. I don't think people murder enough NPCs because "I really wanted that needle case".

I would like more murder.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 17, 2016, 02:56:16 PM
To be honest it was a really nice needle case.
And I did need five of them.
....
The boots also sell for like 30 sid




I'd like to see some strange random jobs that come out of left field. Like, go to the Gaj, look at the boards, "Templar so and so announces the addition of a 'BLANK'" or something.

I'm surprised there isn't an obsidian mine. I think there are like, slave mines or something, but then why is there a templar that buys obsidian from the free people? A mine with a 1small or 2 charge to go in and mine or perhaps it is required you give some obsidian to the guy at the door on leaving for use would be cool.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 17, 2016, 03:09:10 PM
I'm sorry, you haven't mined enough obsidian, friend.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 17, 2016, 03:47:46 PM
Quote from: path on October 17, 2016, 02:43:08 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 17, 2016, 02:39:19 PM
I'm just all for jobs that require skills/talents that EVERYONE can have. While you may not be great at it, everyone can attempt skinning, or foraging, or cooking. This is why rock breaking, mining, dung shoveling... they're all great ideas because even if you don't pick a skillset with any crafting, you can still find a way to pull coin out of the game.

Worse comes to worse, there IS always murder. I don't think people murder enough NPCs because "I really wanted that needle case".

I would like more murder.

Well, I mean... there is a place that some know about that buys corpses.

As for your thoughts on making Jobs "Fun".  How would you do that while also balancing it so that it cannot be abused?  I mean, if I make it so that deposits are easier to hack, that just means someone can make more money more quickly.  Now if we put a cap on how much you can turn in one IC day, that just means that someone comes back the next IC day and turns in more items, or they give it to their friend to turn in.  These are things that we see.  There was a time where Hose Jal would only take certain amounts of Salt (still does), but players would circumvent it.  I'm not saying they were abusing it, but you all find a way... ya sneaky hoodlums.  :D
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 17, 2016, 04:06:34 PM
As a newbie, I never really liked the automated jobs (Salting, Shitdigging, and Glass/Obsidian Hacking), so I hold the (probably minority) view that we'd be fine without them, or that we could just neuter them and relegate them to mere RP devices (wherein you don't get sid from them and can't get rich from them, although perhaps you can get food/water/ale from them).

I do like 'tasks' that encourage interaction, so I like some jobs (hunting, logging, mining for precious stones, grebbing for rags), and I like the idea of salting and the fact that it encourages people to find a friend and go to a specific spot to potentially interact with other grebbers.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: WarriorPoet on October 17, 2016, 05:34:34 PM
Nix all this shit, says WP.

Make 'em beg and whore and kill for their coins.

I have nothing valuable to add to the conversation.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Hauwke on October 17, 2016, 05:54:53 PM
I think instead of the chit thing, make the folks that buy the things just sell supplies.

Countless times have I seen an unarmored Bynner and gone: Go shovel shit dude.
Honestly for city bound folks that can be one of the 'only' ways to get some sort of cash flow started and removing it in favor of chits and supplies will ultimately hurt newbs as much as it would benefit them.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: evilcabbage on October 17, 2016, 06:38:29 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 17, 2016, 04:06:34 PM
As a newbie, I never really liked the automated jobs (Salting, Shitdigging, and Glass/Obsidian Hacking), so I hold the (probably minority) view that we'd be fine without them, or that we could just neuter them and relegate them to mere RP devices (wherein you don't get sid from them and can't get rich from them, although perhaps you can get food/water/ale from them).

I do like 'tasks' that encourage interaction, so I like some jobs (hunting, logging, mining for precious stones, grebbing for rags), and I like the idea of salting and the fact that it encourages people to find a friend and go to a specific spot to potentially interact with other grebbers.


some of these jobs you want neutered so badly are the only way to actually get money for certain people, in any way, shape or form. it would be a bad idea to remove them entirely, or make them just 'rp devices'.

even the immeasurably awful twinks push coin into the economy by actually twinking money and buying shit (from pcs) which enables them to buy shit from others. if nobody did these jobs, we'd all be relying entirely on clan pay (which is utter garbage) to try to make ends meet. good luck owning an apartment on 300 coins every half an ingame month.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 17, 2016, 06:40:08 PM
Quote from: valeria on October 17, 2016, 11:27:37 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 17, 2016, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: valeria on October 17, 2016, 08:22:46 AM
It would be nice if someone could get coins, maybe 1 coin per, for picking up empty mugs around the bars and returning them to the barkeepers.  It would result in a very small amount of sid and get the clutter of mugs, etc, off the bars.

That'd be awesome, *except* during those times when the bar is full and lots of screen scroll is already going on. Most players know to hold up on the bar-clearing activities til the RP slows down. Some don't know, or know, but don't really understand that spam-cleaning is just as annoying to watch during "a scene" as spam-getting-20-feathers-from-your-bag-filled-with-stuff and giving them to the guy buying them. The guy with the feathers -could- just go to another room and do the spamming where there's not a "scene" occurring in the bar. But the guy clearing the bar -in- the bar - can't do that.

I'm all for making a coin or two by cleaning up, and I'm fine with spam, as long as I'm not trying to pay attention to something other than the spam :)


Just so we're clear, I absolutely wouldn't want the return place to be IN the bar itself. Both lower-end bars have kitchen-esque areas that are less busy.

I know you're talking about picking the mugs up, too, but I think any annoyance there could be handled through RP.

It's an ooc annoyance, not an IC annoyance. I've been a bartender and a waitress in a bar. I can poke my fingers through 10 handled mugs, one finger through each, in less time than it takes me to speak a single sentence. In the game, it just flat out doesn't work that way. You're stuck picking up one at a time, and each one consists of 2 lines of text. One with text, one blank line. A black-robe templar could come in and demand that you all bow, and you wouldn't even know he was there by the time you scrolled back to see what you missed in the spam involved in collecting 10 mugs of ale (even if you have the agility to carry 10 mugs). It'd be worse if you didn't have the agility:

get mug bar
get mug bar
get mug bar
get mug bar
e
drop mug;drop mug;drop mug;drop mug
w
get mug bar; etc. etc. etc.

So now you're imposing TWO rooms with your spam instead of just one.

No spam. Please.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Hauwke on October 17, 2016, 07:46:14 PM
To be clear, I am not against changing the jobs. But it just needs to be done in a way that doesnt ruin the fact some folks rely on those for their early game coins. My runner example is just one of a few


I know plenty of folks who will do the job until they no longer need it and only then.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: path on October 17, 2016, 08:00:03 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 17, 2016, 03:47:46 PM
Quote from: path on October 17, 2016, 02:43:08 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 17, 2016, 02:39:19 PM
I'm just all for jobs that require skills/talents that EVERYONE can have. While you may not be great at it, everyone can attempt skinning, or foraging, or cooking. This is why rock breaking, mining, dung shoveling... they're all great ideas because even if you don't pick a skillset with any crafting, you can still find a way to pull coin out of the game.

Worse comes to worse, there IS always murder. I don't think people murder enough NPCs because "I really wanted that needle case".

I would like more murder.

Well, I mean... there is a place that some know about that buys corpses.

As for your thoughts on making Jobs "Fun".  How would you do that while also balancing it so that it cannot be abused?  I mean, if I make it so that deposits are easier to hack, that just means someone can make more money more quickly.  Now if we put a cap on how much you can turn in one IC day, that just means that someone comes back the next IC day and turns in more items, or they give it to their friend to turn in.  These are things that we see.  There was a time where Hose Jal would only take certain amounts of Salt (still does), but players would circumvent it.  I'm not saying they were abusing it, but you all find a way... ya sneaky hoodlums.  :D

I'm not sure there is a balance. I don't know enough about game design, but if we're choosing between an exploitable system and a boring one, I would hands down choose exploitable in favor of fun!

Cabbage makes a good point here, that those same sparkle-armor twinks getting rich on spam jobs are putting coin into the economy. They're the very same people my con artist was able to swindle on the regular, which was fun for me. I hope it was fun for them.

That's why I suggested making compelling poverty role play karma awardable. It isn't about that being the solution. It's about finding a solution that rewards the behavior we want to see instead of penalizing everyone for behavior we disapprove of. Right now the people who've been twinking out on, for instance, salt, are being rewarded. They're still engaging in what I would consider relatively boring roleplay, but they're enjoying the payoff of that in the form of getting their character set up the way they want to see it. That's sort've awesome! Those players are finding ways to feel interested in and satisfied with their characters. I would argue that as they continue to play and explore the potential of the game, eventually their character goals will change and they'll become more interested in elaborating other parts of the world.

I've actually seen this happen with a lot of new players as they become more sophisticated. As Hauwke says, lots of more experienced players use these jobs to set up (hopefully quickly) to the point where they can move on toward establishing other parts of the story they want to explore. That's also awesome!
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Hauwke on October 17, 2016, 08:36:40 PM
We could do a pro v con, pro in this case is for the change to chits.

Pro's:
It is somewhat more realistic, no idiot is going to pay a hundred sid each every single time.
It helps distribute tools.
It solves the water and food issue for newbies.

Cons:
It removes the ability to get set up as easily and in a timely fashion for those that want to get to a 'set up' point.
It may unfortunately slow the economy. Because less sid going around.
It could be a rather confusing system for newbies.


Just by looking at that, its about even. And some may not agree that they are good examples for either side of the argument.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Bahliker on October 17, 2016, 11:11:23 PM
Track toodan. You all know what I'm talking about. Automated quests. Because when you boil it all down that's what these things are, they're quests. Incredibly boring quests just ripe for grinding. You've taken the "go acquire an item for me" staple of role playing video games and combined it with the "tap to pick up the turd" mindlessness of mobile apps. The obsession with creating the perfect fantasy Stone Age poverty simulator that hit its peak in the mid-2000s has created a monster. I said it then and I'll say it again: isn't this work done by slaves? Aren't the pcs the ones that should instead be investigating and slaying unspeakable horrors for fun and profit?

We played fable 3 like it was nobody's business. We killed those mini games- the guitar playing, the black smithing, the bar tending ("a perfect pour!") -because it was the most efficient way to make money enough to buy property, which was necessary if you wanted to win the game without thousands of your citizens dying. One hour of grinding a button-timing mini game that was decidedly NOT fun in order to bypass three hours of monster slaying to reach the same profit goal. I did it to save time and reach endgame quicker. But why even include a bypass that reduces the fun? If it takes too long to "critter grind" as an adventurer then up the coin drops or whatever and either omit the mini games or leave them for completionists and achievement addicts.

So this is where Armageddon comes back in. Some jobs are valuable to player clans. Let those materials-gathering exercises become profitable as demand from GMH or indies dictates. Let's ditch the rest. At least make them less command spam and more rp tool with a small payout in the end. Then why not introduce a little Toodan in our lives? We have a small player base and an imaginative staff so a lot of the small jobs that are both interesting and profitable can be set up by a storyteller with the desire to do a little GMing. By another name, quests. With some work we could have automated systems set up for much more interesting, challenging, exciting tasks all around the game world. I love the courier idea. I love the rat buyer, maybe he trades a bowl of strew and cup of water for the contribution to the pot. Let's have a bounty board npc for escaped slaves, wanted criminals, rogue magickers, all randomly generated and placed from time to time. Let's see some more unrentable residences in the city to lock pick or climb your way into, to seek out randomly generated valuables among the dozens of randomly generated pieces of worthless junk. With npcs that may or may not be home and may or may not cause you to crimflag when you get caught.

Two questions should be at the center of every part of a game like ours: does it generate interesting situations, and how much more fun is it with more than one player involved? Additional rpg questions to ask next are: does success make us feel satisfied with our characters, and do we feel like we gained anything from the effort regardless of success?
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: solera on October 18, 2016, 01:21:03 AM
Shit shovelling has never been a mouse tapper for me. I find myself unable to separate myself from the stink. It has formed part of who my PCs are, or were before they climbed out of the muck.
I like having to have the option of playing with myself, either because, breed, asocial human, or OOC offpeak, or sick of people.
We build our stories around the bones of code, which includes the grinding that virtual PC's have to suffer every day of their lives. Fortunately our PC's can escape, but until they do, the day is measured in shovelfuls and fatigue and skins of water and sids for food.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Bahliker on October 18, 2016, 02:20:17 AM
Maybe it's not like this any more, but the last time I remember digging for dung it was with a byn pc that spent all of his free time there. He made thousands of sid doing so. He ended up filthy stinking rich. I found it boring and just let him have it, going back to the compound to be poor instead. The fact that the real impact on character behavior is upside-down for that sort of job nullifies their value as gamified tools of struggle. In other words, you're electing to be broke if these are the jobs you take on. So hypothetically why not just go full hardcore and rp the job for no coded coin? People elect to play in the rinth in the same way. You can leave any time you want and start making fat bank, but you stay because that's who you want to play. I guess what I really mean is, the code can't ever simulate an economy that produces poverty while staying gamified (partially because it's like three different types of economies rolled into one). So if you want poverty, just play poverty.

I had this conversation with path a few hours ago. I eventually conceded that these shitty jobs have a place, the way the game has evolved. If that struggle is your bag, I guess go for it. But I stand by my four questions, as they relate to a majority experience.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: a french mans shirt on October 18, 2016, 06:35:16 AM
Chits sounds great. I like playing low-class and poor people, but I also like to play a lot sometimes, and often this means finding ways to avoid accumulating coins. A way to earn chits at a lower rate than what the coin-giving people take in the value in your greb, but the first way is safer, makes sense and takes advantage of people with fewer skills. ( i.e. the ability to defend themselves.) When I play merchants, burglars, etc. and I go salting or mining in caves, I have this constant feeling like, 'this job is too dangerous for me,' and I almost always could work at half of what I was paid and survive just fine.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 18, 2016, 08:49:38 AM
I am really appreciating everyone's feedback on this topic.  Its opening my eyes a bit on some areas that we may need to look at down the road.  It sounds that most of the jobs are pretty well received, none really need any major adjustments (except one that will need to get looked at at some point).  Seems the chit system could work, but may need to be looked at closely for balance.  One thing I did want to bring up is that these jobs are also a great way for Off-peak players to make some coins so they can keep an apartment or be able to get equipment.

So a moment off topic... how do you like this thread and the other thread that I posted asking for feedback?  Is this something you'd like to see more from Staff?  Does this ruin any sense of immersion or secrecy to the game at all for you?  Is this helping you at all if you're a new player?
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 18, 2016, 09:16:37 AM
Even if none of our feedback is used, I (at the very least) enjoy the fact that it feels my opinion might be useful. My immersion in the game isn't ruined by knowing that I can buy a shovel at <x> place or that "its financially a better option to do <y> job". These are things I think you would find out in game anyway, but admittedly I'm less of a decent Roleplayer than I'd like to be, so I could be wrong. It invites discussion, and while it requires a little more effort to stay on topic, the playerbase tends to be very polarized when given a decision of A or B, and that has -got- to be great for staff, to see all sides of a problem.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: valeria on October 18, 2016, 09:28:24 AM
I strongly appreciate staff opening up such topics for discussion.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 18, 2016, 10:31:48 AM
I enjoy being able to know about 'basic' functions of the game and have them discussed.


If you opened a topic "Alright lets talk about the spells Krathis get" I'd think that be a little much and kind of silly as most players won't deal with fire mages on a personal level.

Now if you opened a thread "Lets talk about food code" or something, that'd be something cool as well. As more people are likely to use cooking then fireball.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Hauwke on October 18, 2016, 08:55:31 PM
I enjoy the chance to 'argue like a little shit' politely about the game.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: path on October 18, 2016, 09:29:50 PM
I like your topics, Ath. This last spring or early summer I felt like some of the discussions got a big bogged down with griping. I couldn't figure out what to do about it. Nauta did some nice posts to redirect. I think this helps more though, because you're on staff and you do a nice job keeping the discussion moving.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 18, 2016, 10:01:53 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on October 18, 2016, 08:55:31 PM
I enjoy the chance to 'argue like a little shit' politely about the game.

It's fun because I can do so back and give a bit of an explanation.

Quote from: path on October 18, 2016, 09:29:50 PM
I like your topics, Ath. This last spring or early summer I felt like some of the discussions got a big bogged down with griping. I couldn't figure out what to do about it. Nauta did some nice posts to redirect. I think this helps more though, because you're on staff and you do a nice job keeping the discussion moving.

Why thank you.  It was my hope to keep it moving and also keep it interesting, all the while keeping people on track.  (I'm betting our Player Moderators were happy about that.)
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 19, 2016, 08:07:54 AM
I'm glad we can spam more things for smaller amounts of sids in a longer period of time. Previously, it was just the silk braes, strapless lilac gowns, a couple of components, the carved chests, and a couple choice pieces of jewelry. Most of the values on those have been dropped so people aren't "stuck" becoming filthy stinkin rich making just one of each every RL week, and these new "Jobs" have filled in the void of "people who need something to start out before they're actually any good at anything profitable."

I'm also glad for these topics. You can see the collective input from players, rather than a "them vs. us" mentality that is often felt on other threads.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 19, 2016, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 19, 2016, 08:07:54 AM
I'm glad we can spam more things for smaller amounts of sids in a longer period of time. Previously, it was just the silk braes, strapless lilac gowns, a couple of components, the carved chests, and a couple choice pieces of jewelry. Most of the values on those have been dropped so people aren't "stuck" becoming filthy stinkin rich making just one of each every RL week, and these new "Jobs" have filled in the void of "people who need something to start out before they're actually any good at anything profitable."

I'm also glad for these topics. You can see the collective input from players, rather than a "them vs. us" mentality that is often felt on other threads.


Yeah, I know it's been a goal to normalize object values as much as possible and I think we've gotten most of them, there are likely some others out there, but it can be difficult to find them unless players let us know.

As for the "them vs us" mentality, I hope these can help eliminate that.

So I'm going to open the floor to some questions...  but they must be directed towards the topic of Jobs or the Topic Threads in general.  Don't expect answers that are going to give away any secrets of the game, nor anything that is going to give away future or current plans.  I really don't want to get hopes up when something may or may not happen.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: a french mans shirt on October 19, 2016, 11:46:10 AM
Currently, being a rock grebber is something that either wasn't meant to be a thing or hasn't really been looked at. You could greb/mine jasper, onyx, etc. other large chunks of stone and sell five of each to the only coded greb shop in Allanak, but you couldn't do this on a daily basis because of the five item limit. Its a low-paying job that one would think would be a thing, and I'm wondering what staff's position is on automated-paying rock grebbing.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 19, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Actually, that's a decent idea. What if the Trade Ministry opened up a shop that only bought, say, block-sized stones? Four to five coins a piece. You're "helping build the city" and making a bit of coin off it as well. Surely, finding a vein of jasper, then, wouldn't be as useless as it is right now.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 19, 2016, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 19, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Actually, that's a decent idea. What if the Trade Ministry opened up a shop that only bought, say, block-sized stones? Four to five coins a piece. You're "helping build the city" and making a bit of coin off it as well. Surely, finding a vein of jasper, then, wouldn't be as useless as it is right now.
If you have crafting abilities finding a vein of jasper isn't useless at all.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 19, 2016, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 19, 2016, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 19, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Actually, that's a decent idea. What if the Trade Ministry opened up a shop that only bought, say, block-sized stones? Four to five coins a piece. You're "helping build the city" and making a bit of coin off it as well. Surely, finding a vein of jasper, then, wouldn't be as useless as it is right now.
If you have crafting abilities finding a vein of jasper isn't useless at all.

Along the same 'vein' (heheheheh), if you're a guild_merchant you can make coin and don't require any of the coded jobs in game whatsoever!
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 19, 2016, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 19, 2016, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 19, 2016, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 19, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Actually, that's a decent idea. What if the Trade Ministry opened up a shop that only bought, say, block-sized stones? Four to five coins a piece. You're "helping build the city" and making a bit of coin off it as well. Surely, finding a vein of jasper, then, wouldn't be as useless as it is right now.
If you have crafting abilities finding a vein of jasper isn't useless at all.

Along the same 'vein' (heheheheh), if you're a guild_merchant you can make coin and don't require any of the coded jobs in game whatsoever!
Or you could do both jobs and craft things at the same time!



I feel like just raw 'grebbing' is such a hard life tho. The surrounding hides of things you'll probably normally find around Nak can't easily be sold so you have to slightly rely on players.
Sometimes I just buy things to make people feel better.

I don't think grebbing should make you rich or anything but I would greatly appreciate, even if I don't use it, a vendor that buys an endless (Or high cap) amount of raw materials from the surrounding area. Or maybe a bit farther out to give incentive to go find fancy stuff.
Like the mining templar but for something else.
Not necessarily stones tho.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: evilcabbage on October 19, 2016, 01:17:10 PM
i am mostlyin the vein (hee hee) of buying things to make people feel better too.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: nauta on October 19, 2016, 01:23:13 PM
On this point in particular (grebbing for stones):

1. I wonder if we couldn't change the vendor code to purchase items after the big five at a price of one or two sid.

I find the urge to -sell- my items overwhelming.  I mean, you could just go in, sell the five, and RP selling the others while junking them.  But I can rarely get myself to do this, because urges.  But for some reason if I find a vendor willing to pay just one sid for it (in Luir's there is a vendor that pays an outstandingly terrible price for things), I'll do that instead.

Also, callout to path, grebbing for rags in the rinth is MY favorite too, and it does get you ridiculously rich, but only under certain conditions:

1. If there is a low PC population.  If there is a high PC population, then there is competition, and potentially dickheads who will murder you while cleaning off the corpses -- which is awesome.

2. You have to get the goods during a certain time period after a reboot.

But yeah, I think Melissandra, she should pay a lot less for these things.  And if you go southside to sell them: shame on you!
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Riev on October 19, 2016, 01:26:34 PM
That is why I suggested maybe a city-building office, just off the Office of the Mines, that takes only blocky-sized stones, and pays a near-pittance for them. Let City artisans shape the stone into what sizes they need, they're getting near-slave labor off the citizenry and don't have to pay for food or water.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: path on October 19, 2016, 02:19:56 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2016, 01:23:13 PM
But yeah, I think Melissandra, she should pay a lot less for these things.  And if you go southside to sell them: shame on you!

Shame on me, but like, nauta, I'm often scared of the elves on the east side. I dig Mel's gear (wish some of it were differently sized) but those sharps through! They're everywhere, gathering around trash fires, their eerily elongated shadows wavering against the graffiti-smeared sides of crumbling buildings. I mean, for sure I would be lucky to get back westside with my life intact, much less with the coin from whatever I'd sold.

I don't think the rinth is meant to be a stand-alone economy. Is it? I want to drag southies down into the dark alleys with me. I like interchange.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Synthesis on October 19, 2016, 05:40:36 PM
(Note:  I'm assuming this is all around Allanak)

1.  Dung-collecting.  This one is great for a noob PC, if nobody else is competing with you.  Minimal risk.  Hunger/thirst status decline minimally.  Payoff is decent for the amount of time and risk involved.

2.  Clay-digging.  I wouldn't ever do this with a noob PC.  The risk of running into a tarantula that will instagib you is just too high.  They don't spawn nearby, but they get kited (unintentionally, I presume) nearby all the time.  Payoff isn't that great.  Hunger/thirst go down quite a bit.  Totally not worth it around Allanak, in my opinion.

3.  Salting.  Haven't done it much since the changes.  It seems really difficult to find salt even when your foraging skill is at (journeyman).  Also, the payoff isn't anywhere near what it once was, now that the herbalist doesn't buy components.

4.  Foraging stones.  If your foraging skill is decent, you know where to look, and nobody is competing with you, you can make a decent amount of 'sid per reboot on raw gemstones.  More, if there's an active jeweler PC.  Much more if -you- are a jeweler PC.

5.  Obsidian mining.  My go-to once my foraging skill is up, and I can ride well enough to remount and flee.  If you don't fart around, it will pay the bills.  If you spend a lot of time emoting and draining your thirst meter, though, it's significantly less useful.

6.  Glass mining.  Great payoff once your foraging skill is up and the risk of instagib tarantula death is low.  However, once you're that much of a badass, you probably don't -need- to mine glass anymore...you're just being lazy.

7.  Food foraging.  Great for a noob ranger or food-foraging subclass.  You rarely have competition for it, and the wide variety and cooked/uncooked variants mean you almost never max out the shop.

My suggestions:

1.  The clay pits need a "hangout," with cheap food, reasonably-priced water, and a quit-safe room.  (If they have this already, my bad.)  This way you'd only have to run the scrab/spider gauntlet every once in a while.

2.  Implement an active-foraging system where you don't have to/can't "spam" commands for this basic stuff.  You should be able to type "use pickaxe obsidian" once, and just continually mine it, with chunks breaking off periodically and your stamina draining appropriately.  Set an automatic cutoff so that when the PC hits the "very tired" mark, it stops and you have to force it to continue.  Same with all of the other jobs.  As a noob PC where every 'sid counts, it is far too tempting to ride out to a deposit, spam the command until tired, and ride back in as quickly as possible, to avoid depleting your thirst meter.  Timing should be roughly 40 stamina per IC hour...so with a little gear, the average human would be completely exhausted by grebbing from dawn until high sun.

3.  Granted, I haven't played with it much recently, and people were complaining vociferously about it, but I still kinda think salting should be de-nerfed.  I don't ever recall making vast amounts of 'sid from it, except with magickers.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: path on October 19, 2016, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on October 19, 2016, 05:40:36 PM

My suggestions:

1.  The clay pits need a "hangout," with cheap food, reasonably-priced water, and a quit-safe room.  (If they have this already, my bad.)  This way you'd only have to run the scrab/spider gauntlet every once in a while.

2.  Implement an active-foraging system where you don't have to/can't "spam" commands for this basic stuff.  You should be able to type "use pickaxe obsidian" once, and just continually mine it, with chunks breaking off periodically and your stamina draining appropriately.  Set an automatic cutoff so that when the PC hits the "very tired" mark, it stops and you have to force it to continue.  Same with all of the other jobs.  As a noob PC where every 'sid counts, it is far too tempting to ride out to a deposit, spam the command until tired, and ride back in as quickly as possible, to avoid depleting your thirst meter.  Timing should be roughly 40 stamina per IC hour...so with a little gear, the average human would be completely exhausted by grebbing from dawn until high sun.

3.  Granted, I haven't played with it much recently, and people were complaining vociferously about it, but I still kinda think salting should be de-nerfed.  I don't ever recall making vast amounts of 'sid from it, except with magickers.

This is awesome! Especially love #2.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Lizzie on October 19, 2016, 05:49:51 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 19, 2016, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 19, 2016, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 19, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Actually, that's a decent idea. What if the Trade Ministry opened up a shop that only bought, say, block-sized stones? Four to five coins a piece. You're "helping build the city" and making a bit of coin off it as well. Surely, finding a vein of jasper, then, wouldn't be as useless as it is right now.
If you have crafting abilities finding a vein of jasper isn't useless at all.

Along the same 'vein' (heheheheh), if you're a guild_merchant you can make coin and don't require any of the coded jobs in game whatsoever!

...eventually. Start-up "guild_merchant" can very well make excellent use of "jobs" until they've become better at their coded crafting skills. Unless you're in the north and buy a lumber axe with your starting sids, or show up and get clanned immediately out of chargen, or get lucky and come across some dead guy's pack full of craftable materials, you won't be crafting much at all at first, because the materials are expensive until you are able to acquire your own (or can afford to buy your own, which you can't do til you sell something, which you can't do until you have something to sell, which is difficult to do if you have no materials to make something worth selling).

Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Jihelu on October 19, 2016, 07:10:20 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 19, 2016, 05:49:51 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 19, 2016, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 19, 2016, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 19, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Actually, that's a decent idea. What if the Trade Ministry opened up a shop that only bought, say, block-sized stones? Four to five coins a piece. You're "helping build the city" and making a bit of coin off it as well. Surely, finding a vein of jasper, then, wouldn't be as useless as it is right now.
If you have crafting abilities finding a vein of jasper isn't useless at all.

Along the same 'vein' (heheheheh), if you're a guild_merchant you can make coin and don't require any of the coded jobs in game whatsoever!

...eventually. Start-up "guild_merchant" can very well make excellent use of "jobs" until they've become better at their coded crafting skills. Unless you're in the north and buy a lumber axe with your starting sids, or show up and get clanned immediately out of chargen, or get lucky and come across some dead guy's pack full of craftable materials, you won't be crafting much at all at first, because the materials are expensive until you are able to acquire your own (or can afford to buy your own, which you can't do til you sell something, which you can't do until you have something to sell, which is difficult to do if you have no materials to make something worth selling).


I disagree with this.
One of your starting crafting skills, involving stones, is pretty useless but getting them is pretty easy, it's just a matter of knowing what stones.

Then it gives you something else and by that point your forage is good enough that you make loads ofm oney.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 21, 2016, 11:16:30 AM
Alright, so there hasn't been many questions, so I am going to close this thread up here soon.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 24, 2016, 03:38:02 AM
Currently digging dung costs more stamina than hacking obsidian, which feels off. Perhaps hacking is too easy, or maybe dung-digging is too hard. Not sure.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: a french mans shirt on October 24, 2016, 08:52:45 AM
Hacking a quarry or deposit is dependant on your forage skill. The better you are at foraging, the less energy it takes.
Title: Re: Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins
Post by: Ath on October 24, 2016, 07:55:00 PM
Alright folks, this one has died out.  I'm closing it.  Thank you again on your feedback.  Might be a bit before I start another thread, but this was greatly appreciated.