I know it's been discussed over and over and over again -- but actually, in the last little bit, there hasn't been much discussion. In any case, it's been on my mind. So here's a two-fold proposal, and I'd be interested in hearing what players thought about this.
1. Desert Elves from a Non-Coded Tribe: You could either be from a virtual tribe or a lonefoot.
2. City Elves from a Coded Tribe: Pretty self explanatory. I wouldn't mind seeing two coded tribes, perhaps parallel to the two Desert Elf Tribes: one tribe of sexy wide-ranging drunks (like the Sun Runners) and one tribe of dour brutal territorial cry babies (the SLK); perhaps the one would be Southside-based, the other Labyrinth-based.[1]
Right now, curiously enough, the situation is opposite: You can play a lonefoot or virtual tribed city elf but not a coded tribe city elf; and you can play a coded tribe desert elf but not a lonefoot or virtual tribed desert elf. (Automatically, that is -- you can, of course, put in a special application for a lonefoot / virtual-tribed desert elf or put in a request to make a player-crated family for tribed city elves.)
Motivation: The main motivation here is RP opportunities: I find it really interesting to interact with / play a lonefoot elf -- and I also find it really interested to interact with / play a tribed elf (with a real PC-populated tribe). It's a lot of good RP times, and I don't really -- from a player perspective -- understand why #1 is an impossibility: desert elves are karma required and, ultimately, a lonefoot desert elf (or a desert elf from a virtual tribe) isn't that codedly powerful, all things considered; I've also never heard why #2 is a impossibility, since the coded city elf tribes closed before my time here.
[1] One curious thing to handle would be how the Rinth city elf tribe interacts with the (virtual and NPC) Jaxa Pah. On the westisde, the PCs join the clan which /runs/ the westside. While you could just make things parallel -- open the Jaxa for play -- it might be more interesting to eliminate the Jaxa altogether.
Also, please, please, please try to keep this thread focused. Hence, if you are about to post something, read it over again, and think: is this snark that will make nauta cry? Will this derail the thread? Is my toast finished?
I've given up on city elves. They won't get any of the love they need. And I won't play them anymore.
I don't think D-elves should be able to play without a clan. But if they could I would play nothing else.
if they play without a clan, you must have a really fucking good reason for having the ability to basically run literally everywhere you want, and have some very extensive tribal information - like, it is ingrained into you that you only travel out of the salt flats for food and water (because the flats are super dangerous).
things like that, which are restrictive similar to how the actual d-elf tribes are restrictive. maybe your tribe were raiders from the salt flats, and they were wiped out by patrols or something, and you managed to survive. now you have to find a way to survive the rest of your days.
#1: This is how desert elves used to be, but you had to provide some good reasoning or documentation for a virtual tribe that they were part of. I really didn't mind it, but it was ixnayed for a reason, I'm guessing (a reason I don't know about). I have no qualms with it coming back, and no reason for it not to, but it would be staff that you'd have to persuade since I don't recall it being a player-idea policy change or anything of that nature. There was a specific staff-desired direction for it.
#2: The Jaxa Pah was, in my opinion, a hastily organized endeavor that actually made the eastside less elven than more elven. There was already documentation in place that described a 'hierarchy' for eastside and how they were loosely tied together. The Jaxa was, I think, just an effort to throw something into the mix that allowed for IC recruitment, but it was a poorly done attempt, imo. Of course, at the time that I complained about such things, it was made out to be a personal thing rather than an observation of why it would not be good for the eastside (because it was Bhagharva making the change, and me and that fellow did not see eye to eye on just about anything). However...I have long thought (and worked towards, with a couple instances) that the 'ic recruitable' eastside clan would be the elven market itself. At one point, I even had a coded clan created by Zagren so that my Haruch Kemad could clan people and make them feel special...even though it granted them no boons at all.
It's a little harder to regulate than the westside since elves are more unto their own; relationships with NPCs that represent certain groups are variable, and so even though there's an elven market, that doesn't mean the elven muggers are all going to listen to it. But the elves of Dariki sound like your partygoing types (though I'm not sure that any eastside tribe is really...partygoing. Elves are -traditionally- pretty severe in nature, but Dariki would definitely fit in as the most likely to represent that side), and that leaves Kanosh, Valuren, Sandas, and a few other more virtual tribes of the eastside that could also be used. The only problem with an 'overarching' clan of eastside is that it removes the eastside elven identity. I think the age of the Haruch Kemad had it right.
I have a lot more to say about city elves, because they really have been done to death. I do want city-elf tribes available, but every attempt I've made to 'prime' for it has failed...not just because of staff not wanting it happen at the time (which was always the case), but because the elven mentality and trust had makes a lot of impediments around getting groups together. While I believe the state of the lonefoot isn't broken, and I view the lonefoot as more likely to be a thing in the city, the complete lack of option to be in a group as one would definitely make it unappealing to many players. -I- have come up with my way of doing it, but not everyone wants that experience.
In short, I am fine with both ideas, but I don't think either of them are player-centric directives. In other words, they weren't made this way out of player demand or player dislike for how things were. We really just need a staffer to step up and say they'll take on the elves of eastside in particular (it's a much more daunting task than you think. Elves play against each other hard and constantly until some outsider tries to piss in their pool, and thus it can be pretty time consuming to keep the atmosphere alive in the state that it's supposed to be in.)
Elves really are the most interesting/coolest mindset in this game to me, so I survive the lack of clans by building my own relationships and ideas as the character comes along as a lonefoot. But there is a serious lack of identity that the Jaxa contributes towards, rather than fixing...because it tries to make a dominant clan in a place where there is no real dominance (Not since the ALA ended, anyway. No one wanted to fuck with those guys. You's a scary mothafucka, Reno.), and my only fear is that the next version of 'structuring elven eastside for play' is going to fall into the same trap.
Edit: Despite the thread title, this discussion ended up having some cool insights that I think could be used by elven players in the meantime. I do hope city elf clans get redone and put in, and that's a point that a lot of people agree with, but we also seem to be in a place where if anyone suggests that more clans is better, they get jumped on. But the later pages of http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48797.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48797.0.html) are at least a good read. Which isn't to demean the idea, but I wanted to point directly to the things we could do as players to get around this until such a time that staff decide to re-open some clans in a helpful way towards emphasizing what elves are, and what they do, and most importantly...that they haven't be exterminated because they aren't villains, they're just sly bastards who don't really care about you at all.
I played several desert elves back when you didn't need a coded tribe. I really enjoyed it.
I personally preferred playing a desert elf then and ALSO encountering desert elves then.
Now when I meet a desert elf I can generally look at them, within a second or two figure out what tribe they are from, and determine which "box" they fit in.
Based on their tribal documentation I more or less know what "version of elf" I'm going to get before they ever even speak, within a spectrum.
It makes encountering desert elves honestly pretty bland in my opinion these days. There have been some great desert elf players from these coded tribes, no doubt about it.
But, if you have seen 10, then you have pretty much seen them all because they all have to fit within a certain spectrum in order to qualify for the tribe in question.....and I've seen a lot more than 10 from each over the years.
We basically took desert elves and said, "You know that thing about gemmers that makes them uninteresting? Because everyone knows pretty much what all of them are/can do/which box they fit in?"....Yeah, let's make a desert elf version of that problem.
I don't know why we feel the need to "restrict them" into very limited categories. It's like saying, "Wow, the players could do a lot with this awesome concept, but let's neuter the fuck out of it so they have to do it pretty much how we want when we want where we want.".
But, that's my personal opinion and feelings about the situation. I'm sure there are a ton of people who find it completely fulfilling and good for them, enjoy.
I think it's mostly because desert elves are beefy as fuck and without limitations they can be PK machines of the desert. Not necessarily a bad thing per se, but I wager it got out of hand.
I would like a viable c-elf clan, and I agree that it needs to be carefully thought out, lest it lead to a lack of variety and stifle creativity. It's always a concern of mine when a new group rolls in with the idea "things are gonna change around here" in an area previously lacking structure. I find myself asking, "Yeah, but why? They're fine the way they are.". I mostly prefer to stay away from clans and areas they frequent, because I'm having fun playing some piss-ant, good-for-nothing scoundrel, and some of their attempts to "involve" me or others in their plotlines can seem needlessly destructive and restrictive.
While some structure is a good thing, for a creative experiment to thrive things have to be a little lax. I'd love to see a group pop up but I don't want to feel like my hands are bound everywhere I go, which is what could happen if there's not enough wiggle-room.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 03:15:55 PM
I think it's mostly because desert elves are beefy as fuck and without limitations they can be PK machines of the desert. Not necessarily a bad thing per se, but I wager it got out of hand.
Well, that and 9 out of 10 were mages.
Seeing as how the game, staff, and veteran players have evolved over time, mayhaps it would be a good thing to open tribeless/virtual tribe desert elves for play again?
Quote from: Delirium on September 02, 2016, 03:33:43 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 03:15:55 PM
I think it's mostly because desert elves are beefy as fuck and without limitations they can be PK machines of the desert. Not necessarily a bad thing per se, but I wager it got out of hand.
Well, that and 9 out of 10 were mages.
I can see this, but then again, if the issue was that people weren't playing them responsibly, realistically, or in a way that was harmful to the game we just should have increased the karma threshold IMO and left more freedom in the role at the disposal of more trusted/better players.
I don't think we need to take freedom away from the role so as to "dumb it down" to what would be safe for a karma 1 audience.
I don't think a delf sans tribe is a particularly useful role to play for the game. It's a solid race already, it needs some degree of bounds. Also the tribes are pretty cool.
But celfs? As usual - give them something, even if it's better desert running, and a couple of things from Dark Sun like no heat stroke for elves and less need for food and water to recognise their origins as desert runners. That and a clan or two, ideally ones without as tight restrictions as delf ones, but enough to give them an us/them mentality against people. If it makes an elf mafia for a while, at least that'd be more interesting than the half assed modern-people racism we see IG that somehow makes out elves as the worst ever but dwarves and giants are buddies.
I wager stumps and half-giants would get a lot more racism if they weren't code-capable of punching your head off.
edit: grammar
I think it's about time the racial roleplay docs were rethought as well.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 02, 2016, 04:33:57 PM
I wager stumps and half-giants would get a lot more racism if they weren't code-capable of punching your head off.
edit: grammar
well yeah and that shit lazy
I have encountered a Lone Foot before, but I can't really discuss it yet. I think it's a roll that should be encouraged, but still gated behind a spec app. As for most of those in the past being gicks, I suppose that makes some sense from an RP perspective. Most DE clans send away or kill most types of gicks, so having gick solo elves makes sense thematically, but the roll isn't really special when tons of people are doing that same thing.
City elf tribes though I am 100% for, elven roleplay for me has seemed insurmountable without a pc tribe, and I don't like solo rp enough to spend all day logged in without other players to trust and relax around.
Quote from: Case on September 02, 2016, 04:36:59 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 02, 2016, 04:33:57 PM
I wager stumps and half-giants would get a lot more racism if they weren't code-capable of punching your head off.
edit: grammar
well yeah and that shit lazy
Players are lazy.
Being racist to (city) elves makes sense because their docs make them out to be compulsive thieves and asshats while the code makes them all but useless except as living sparring dummies. There's no reason not to shit on them, barring the occasional super assassin.
Loosen up their docs so City Elves can more readily form gangs in the city - think of them as degenerated tribal traditions that have been disrupted by centuries of urban living. Buff up their code so they're capable of actually engaging in physical and outdoor activities.
You got to carrot-and-stick people into good play. Right now City Elves just get beaten with a stick.
100% wish for a supported city elf Labyrinth clan to balance out the Guild. Have for a long time.
Or even write a document on racism. Since most of it just seems to be player head-canon.
I don't think I'm very open to just virtual tribe elves. I would like it if we had a bit more variations from two tribes that are pretty much Scam Artists or Murderers. Yes, these are incredibly generalised but they work for what I'm saying. From the docs we had more variations before but it has just sort of dwindled.
I'd like c-elf tribes, because I've never considered a c-elf because the docs talk about dedication to your tribe but then like... You're going to join the game and not be in any tribe whatsoever. You have to hope you run into one, or you'll never get that experience. At least that's what I got from the docs.
No to desert elves without coded tribes.
Yes to city elves with coded tribes.
I'd like to see city elves done away with all together. Just add a city based d-elf tribe like the Night Runners from Dark Sun.
Only if they get another name. Enough Runners of various types in the game already.
Well yeah, the idea was something that would promote RP. The name isn't really important.
The gist would be that they are mercenaries, spies, thieves and assassins. That would put them in direct competition with other groups. It wouldn't be out of line with city elves, but would create a group to plot and scheme with.
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
That's how I feel as well, with very minor tweaks to mindset perhaps to make it a bit more defined where people stand in a 'default' elven head.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
To modify this, though. (Why didn't I just modify my post? Sticky pickle).
City Elf tribes in the Rinth are a bit of an enigma. As pointed out, they have PC representation, which to all other PCs in the game means they are more 'present' than virtual and NPC components. This is just true, it has to be true, and it is true. Now, i've seen Elf Tribes for the most part 'cow' to the virtual presence of Kanosh and other elements of the Jaxa Pah. But it's a little silly that the Guild runs the Westside, and it can be fully inhabited by players, while the Eastside is run by a virtual non-entity that is the Elven Bogeyman.
I think if the Eastside were made more nebulous again, as it was in the HK days, and the Southside were made more appealing (I think it already is, with the Teahouse and other elements of the rooftops coming to the foreground), a couple of tribes that could be app'd into would be just swell. It wouldn't be automatic as it is with the SLK and SRs. Staff would put out a call, people would app in. There would be 4 at a time. Staff could open and close them as they pleased (so if the tribe were culled by a Templar Raid, 4 more wouldn't just pop up to avenge themz).
Honestly, you need a page of well thought out documentation (one page), to have enough to go on to make a city elf tribe wonderful. I done seen it, with my own two peepers.
.
Quote from: Molten Heart on September 02, 2016, 06:20:08 PM
The game just needs more coded desert elf tribes, even if that means they only get some background docs and a coded camp with a quit out location and a vendor. And let us stop destroying desert tribals of all races. Though if there is a problem, maybe close them from PC play. Lets also either re-open the blackwing or have another tribe displace them.
The game also needs more city elf tribes. They should start out with a small coded game world footprint (like a hovel somewhere, not even a save room) and possibly evolve from there.
Moving to a place where tribals were less empowered (ALA the Sun Runners) and more of just...Tribals, would be good for the game I think. Less required Staff oversight of them/their shinanigans, more Staff Oversight of an area/areas. Quit safe spot, vendor, akin to the player created tribes...Yes, please. Cap them at 2-4 per tribe.
I wider selection/rotation of tribes please. I honestly don't like most of the available ones at the moment.
Maybe we could think of the current Elven tribes more as nations, made up of smaller groups or bands that each have their own quirks and traditions. It might allow for some flexibility of character, so that not "Every SLK is a raider" or "Every Sun Runner is an alcoholic minstrel show act." Some SLK bands might be more open to trade, some SR bands might be more antagonistic. You'd have the core beliefs of the Tribe (veneration, cross-tribe traditions) but that wouldn't need to be the end-all of your character.
Edit: I also don't think these should be rigid categories for your character. Your elf can't stop being a Sun Runner, but over their life they might move to a different band due to shared beliefs, closer ties, or practical survival reasons.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
City elves really only work if you think it's kosher to treat 'rinth npc's as sparring buddies.
I'm not coming down on people that do it though.
Quote from: Jingo on September 02, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
City elves really only work if you think it's kosher to treat 'rinth npc's as sparring buddies.
I'm not coming down on people that do it though.
Every City Elf Family rolecall should include "the 15 year old with prioritized agility that we ritually try and slap the shit out of every night."
Child abuse is just an evolutionary advantage in Zalanthas.
Quote from: Jingo on September 02, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
City elves really only work if you think it's kosher to treat 'rinth npc's as sparring buddies.
I'm not coming down on people that do it though.
My elves rarely have good weapon skills, but aren't often helpless either. Elves in their current form require you to be a little more okay with less combat, I think. Which isn't to say 'this is how it should be', moreso just that if you're okay with less combat dependence, the enjoyability factor does go up.
I too hate the happy hunting ground that some people turn the labyrinth into.
Quote from: Jingo on September 02, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
City elves really only work if you think it's kosher to treat 'rinth npc's as sparring buddies.
I'm not coming down on people that do it though.
It wasn't on my elf, but a human westsider: I used to disarm one of the rinth kids, give them a sparring club, and actually spar with them a bit, then disarm them again, take the sparring club, and head home for the day.
I don't think there's anything wrong with fighting NPCs in the rinth. I'd rather rinthers stick around inside the rinth, rather than join the Byn and never return.
QuoteI don't think there's anything wrong with fighting NPCs in the rinth.
I had some account notes placed on me, and some character deaths from staff 'correction' that tell me it was, at least at some point, very frowned upon.
I get more bothered by the sometimes blatant OOC motive for murder in game than the act itself. I'm pretty sure if I started attacking random PC's with no motive other than I wanted to fight and skill up, people would be all over it, but as long as it happens to the NPC's there, people seem to just give it a pass.
To tie this in to the topic...I see no problems with elves being alleyrats but having a lot of their business outside of the labyrinth. It really kind of makes sense. If they never come back? Well...that's cool, maybe their character wanted to get out and they found the means, or they found a scene where they weren't suspicious of people wanting to kill them as much, or something. But I don't think the sparring deal is something unique to elves.
QuoteBut it's a little silly that the Guild runs the Westside, and it can be fully inhabited by players, while the Eastside is run by a virtual non-entity that is the Elven Bogeyman.
While I can agree in the spirit of the thing, I do want to point out that the major difference between the two locations aside from race is that the west is unified and the east is not. This is the problem that the Jaxa Pah creation had...no one really 'runs' the elven tribal community, but they are loosely affiliated and manipulating and dealing with each other. So it's hard to build a main clan there without it starting to dominate and remove that elven mentality from the place.
It's not "blatant OOC motive for murder" if you leave your sparring partners victims alive and relieved of their packs and valuables. I can think of a few choice streets southside where soldiers are sparse and PCs common to "interact" with. It's a thin line between sparring and mugging.
Edit: really you should be getting shit for attacking NPCs too, but NPCs don't have friends who will take interest and hunt you down.
Quote from: nauta on September 02, 2016, 07:02:17 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 02, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
City elves really only work if you think it's kosher to treat 'rinth npc's as sparring buddies.
I'm not coming down on people that do it though.
It wasn't on my elf, but a human westsider: I used to disarm one of the rinth kids, give them a sparring club, and actually spar with them a bit, then disarm them again, take the sparring club, and head home for the day.
I don't think there's anything wrong with fighting NPCs in the rinth. I'd rather rinthers stick around inside the rinth, rather than join the Byn and never return.
This was the coolest. Do they just grab the next weapon in their inventory by default? I couldn't understand how you were making that work.
Let me get my snark out of the way first:
(http://i.imgur.com/Y4E6u9q.jpg)
Okay so.
I have this nagging feeling that both celf tribes and tribeless delves aren't around, simply because of the trouble they can cause. A celf tribe can actually rob folks, people! A tribeless delf can leave the tablelands and raid others holy shit think of the children.
It's highly cynical, but it hasn't been mentioned, so I took that on me; in large part I just have this cynical feeling that the playerbase, for all its fawning over raiders and whatever, really doesn't deal with combat very well. I know I'll catch flak for this, but the tolerance for any kind of criminal activity beyond asking token amounts of money for 'protection' just isn't there; not once have I preemptively bribed important sorts and watched it be useful, and sometimes the entire bloody labyrinth gets locked off because someone did something shady.
I'm sloooowly starting to adopt RGS' point of view, where celves are just unsalvageable at a certain point. Two years ago I was making these same arguments, at which point staff told me off and said 'we're working on it'. The delay is a well-known phenomenon, but at this point I'm holding my breath no more. In a game of people treasuring their priceless, special crystalline knives, walling themselves off in expensive places, anything to disturb that sorts of peace is going to be met with immense amounts of retaliation. Until that changes, any celf tribe is going to be treated as if it were Satan incarnate by those who can't deal with losing a number of coins.
I dunno. Cynical as I am, these threads always make me want to store my current character, roll up a necker (or maybe a mul), prioritize strength, and mug the shit out of some roundears.
Use the roofs. Attack in numbers. Bash/sap/bludgeon relentlessly. Strike at the sponsored rolls, ambush the mudsexers, arrange the corpses of long-lived PCs. Remind the tall musculars and tressy tresses of Allanak why they fear the night.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 02, 2016, 08:25:25 PM
I dunno. Cynical as I am, these threads always make me want to store my current character, roll up a necker (or maybe a mul), prioritize strength, and mug the shit out of some roundears.
Use the roofs. Attack in numbers. Bash/sap/bludgeon relentlessly. Strike at the sponsored rolls, ambush the mudsexers, arrange the corpses of long-lived PCs. Remind the tall musculars and tressy tresses of Allanak why they fear the night.
I am literally doing this right now and people don't seem to care.
The real problem is either the apathy you receive from others due to your actions, or the insane response you get where half the world tries is suddenly directing every resource they have into destroying you.
Kill them all and don't worry about reactions. You won't have killed enough until I see another "FUCK THIS GAME" thread from a player of a formerly-long-lived character.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
No to solo d-elves.
Yes to c-elf tribes. There's already some good groundwork for a couple c-elf tribes in Allanak that I've found and also re-opening some old ones with something of a doc overhaul would be nice.
My recent experience with a very tiny, but true and totally awesome Celf Tribe lead me to think that Celven tribes should be completely and totally outlawed. Make that shit impossible to play by PCs. The reason is simple. Celven tribes are fucking powerful. They're more powerful then Guild. They're more powerful then merchant houses. They're powerful due to their sheer loyalty and impossibility for betrayal. Which sadly often makes annihilation the only certain way of influence on these tribes. You cant flip them, you cant get them to rat on each other, you cant infiltrate them. Any kind of influence on them either involves placating them, having someone hostage, which oh so often turns into a blood bath anyway.
What has to be figured out is some kind of a medium. Some kind of an organization, that would accept loose elves from a multitude of virtual tribes join and still have some kind of an infrastructure that allows them to work together. If we can come up with a way to make that happen, that would be gold. But I do not believe this organization should be a tribe. Tribes are just so unbelievably powerful and so tempting to annihilate.
Quote from: Dar on September 02, 2016, 11:15:08 PM
Tribes are just so unbelievably powerful and so tempting to annihilate.
Well, I don't disagree.
Sometimes the issue is that a group of four characters can completely dominate the game if they are also masters of code.
Other times the issue is establishment player characters are obsessively fixated on new clans/families that come into the game. Which usually results in those clans either being assimilated into the establishment structure or they're killed.
Quote from: nauta on September 02, 2016, 07:02:17 PM
It wasn't on my elf, but a human westsider: I used to disarm one of the rinth kids, give them a sparring club, and actually spar with them a bit, then disarm them again, take the sparring club, and head home for the day.
I hope you're kidding.
I hope NPCs use spice in their inventory. Cause I know I would have loaded that kid up if I knew someone was doing that.
Quote from: nauta on September 02, 2016, 07:02:17 PM
It wasn't on my elf, but a human westsider: I used to disarm one of the rinth kids, give them a sparring club, and actually spar with them a bit, then disarm them again, take the sparring club, and head home for the day.
I'm sorry but are you being serious?
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on September 03, 2016, 12:37:12 AM
Quote from: nauta on September 02, 2016, 07:02:17 PM
It wasn't on my elf, but a human westsider: I used to disarm one of the rinth kids, give them a sparring club, and actually spar with them a bit, then disarm them again, take the sparring club, and head home for the day.
I'm sorry but are you being serious?
I assumed this wasn't serious...because arming an NPC for training purposes.... :o
...but now I'm not sure... :-\
Edit: Umm...sticky pickle. (Because Reiloth is trying to make that a thing. I'll support the endeavor.)
I'm not terribly bothered. It isn't any worse than just mugging npc's to take their stuff and skill up.
And extra points if it's roleplayed.
Better than stilt lizards. Not quite as good as the guy who was dressing up raptors in full oufits.
Getting up in arms about fighting NPCs is sooooo 2008.
Who gives a fuck as long as it's roleplayed and makes sense.
Quote from: Yam on September 03, 2016, 01:35:57 AM
Getting up in arms about fighting NPCs is sooooo 2008.
Who gives a fuck as long as it's roleplayed and makes sense.
I agree. It's not like you're giving it to a rat and the rat wields it. From a RP standpoint it sounds like a very creative way of bullying someone weaker than you, by giving them a small chance to actually defend themself but not enough to actually pose as a threat. As in, "Alright, kid, I'm gonna beat the crap out of you for no other reason than you're in my way. But here's a club and see if that helps you at all." What's not legit Rinther RP about that?
The problem is the instant it has to do with the code (or -- gasp -- giving your character a chance to practice skills) everyone wants to call foul.
I wish Rinth Orphans had hunt and pursuit code.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 02, 2016, 08:54:28 PM
Kill them all and don't worry about reactions. You won't have killed enough until I see another "FUCK THIS GAME" thread from a player of a formerly-long-lived character.
This is also way lazy and you know that. Killing selectively as part of a story or plot? Pretty interesting, gives material to work with.
Killing en masse to "shake it up" does the opposite, makes them focus on not dying or killing more people to stop it. When the first escalation is death over and over and over, it tends to create garbage RP that ends up nowhere, especially when PCs who knew dead PCs die and it just blank slates it all.
Quote from: Case on September 03, 2016, 04:11:58 AM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 02, 2016, 08:54:28 PM
Kill them all and don't worry about reactions. You won't have killed enough until I see another "FUCK THIS GAME" thread from a player of a formerly-long-lived character.
This is also way lazy and you know that. Killing selectively as part of a story or plot? Pretty interesting, gives material to work with.
Killing en masse to "shake it up" does the opposite, makes them focus on not dying or killing more people to stop it. When the first escalation is death over and over and over, it tends to create garbage RP that ends up nowhere, especially when PCs who knew dead PCs die and it just blank slates it all.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 02, 2016, 04:39:31 PM
Players are lazy.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 03, 2016, 04:17:14 AM
Quote from: Case on September 03, 2016, 04:11:58 AM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 02, 2016, 08:54:28 PM
Kill them all and don't worry about reactions. You won't have killed enough until I see another "FUCK THIS GAME" thread from a player of a formerly-long-lived character.
This is also way lazy and you know that. Killing selectively as part of a story or plot? Pretty interesting, gives material to work with.
Killing en masse to "shake it up" does the opposite, makes them focus on not dying or killing more people to stop it. When the first escalation is death over and over and over, it tends to create garbage RP that ends up nowhere, especially when PCs who knew dead PCs die and it just blank slates it all.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on September 02, 2016, 04:39:31 PM
Players are lazy.
Some are. Not all. I know you're not either. Encouraging it is shitty.
Everyone's shitty given the right circumstances.
Honestly I think the "extreme reaction" to acts of criminality is a symptom of long-players characters and players unwilling to let them go, to lose. It's human nature to want to protect that which we've invested serious time and emotion in building.
I'm not asking people to go out and kill every PC who's over a RL year old (you'd totally be stepping on my dwarf assassin focus if you did). But know that the irrational, "shitty" reactions is almost a given from an established character. Give players the benefit of the doubt, but be ready to immediately escalate to scorched earth tactics if there's no sign of reciprocation.
As far as Elves go... I think Tribes should be watching for those characters with a history of extreme (over)reaction to Elven deeds. And they should make the collective Elven shit list because of their reactions.
I'm not sure if it's just a general phenomena on regarding long-lived players or if it's just a lack of meaningful leadership among leader players.
Frankly I lean towards the latter because I avoid them for the most part now. I don't enjoy the lame kneejerk overkill I tend to get from them.
Quote from: nauta on September 02, 2016, 07:02:17 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 02, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
City elves really only work if you think it's kosher to treat 'rinth npc's as sparring buddies.
I'm not coming down on people that do it though.
It wasn't on my elf, but a human westsider: I used to disarm one of the rinth kids, give them a sparring club, and actually spar with them a bit, then disarm them again, take the sparring club, and head home for the day.
I don't think there's anything wrong with fighting NPCs in the rinth. I'd rather rinthers stick around inside the rinth, rather than join the Byn and never return.
Don't do this. I can't believe I have to write this post. NPCs are not your paper dolls - you don't get to interact with them on this level and in such a clumsy way as to ever make this justifiable.
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 01:26:58 AM
I'm not terribly bothered. It isn't any worse than just mugging npc's to take their stuff and skill up.
And extra points if it's roleplayed.
Again, sort of a bizarre situation that I have to post this: this attitude doesn't fit the game. Leave it at the door. A mugging doesn't require you to impose more than the code itself covers - you stalk the NPC, you attack the NPC, you take the NPC's stuff. It's correct that there are some OOC oddness around the same NPCs coming back again and again, but I hope that players, especially players with any karma, are able to work around OOC constraints such as this to create a sensible IC logic.
Quote from: Yam on September 03, 2016, 01:35:57 AM
Getting up in arms about fighting NPCs is sooooo 2008.
Who gives a fuck as long as it's roleplayed and makes sense.
Once more - I hate to say 'I'm disappointed' - but the combination of what is being said and who is saying it really saddens me. You guys really are your own worst enemies.
I find sparring NPCs at all to be kind of odd. Its makes the game feel like a hack'n'slash sparring others however is fun, then you get the whole: I beat the snot out of you fucks again and again.
Until someone better comes along and beats the snot out of you. Whatchu gonna do huh?
I mean fair enough. If you explicitly don't want people to do that then we won't.
But as far as intent goes? And the relative harm that it causes? I personally don't have a huge problem.
But I suppose if leader pc's started giving their guards sparring weapons and fighting them then I would? So I could see how it's a bit of a slippery slope?
This is the Elf thread, not the "Does Child Abuse lead to skill gains?" thread.
Rathustra, don't act disappointed in me. I had a character that went around bonking kids on the head and stuffing them into the Salarri argosy.
Now what's really slick is if you give a mekillot a bunch of boulders. I mean a BUNCH of boulders. You gotta go sneak in and out making boulder trips. But once you give the mekillot enough boulders you can go give the raptors a bunch of axes and swords and then lead your new raptor army to the mekillot to take it out.
https://youtu.be/gTWo9oLJOWk?t=119
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 05:08:06 AM
I mean fair enough. If you explicitly don't want people to do that then we won't.
But as far as intent goes? And the relative harm that it causes? I personally don't have a huge problem.
But I suppose if leader pc's started giving their guards sparring weapons and fighting them then I would? So I could see how it's a bit of a slippery slope?
My last post was more about being dismayed, which isn't helpful. But it really is dismaying to see such a disconnect.
Treating 'rinth NPCs as semi-generic 'slum dwellers' in the same way that any given chalton is indistinguishable from any other chalton to murder, mug and abuse them makes sense as an OOC abstraction for a sprawling labyrinth full of dejected poor.
Manipulating dumb AI code to force an NPC to fight in a way to maximize your sparring gains with some flimsy 'IC justification' for why you're doing it isn't. You don't get to choose how the NPC feels about the situation, it's not kosher to decide that an NPC wants to be your sparring buddy. Your comparison to guard NPCs is apt. You don't get to decide how that scene plays out.
Wish up if you want to see if the 'rinthi orphan wants to spar with you.
Quote from: Rathustra on September 03, 2016, 05:13:35 AM
Wish up if you want to see if the 'rinthi orphan wants to spar with you.
A dirty, rinthi-kid says in rinthi-accented sirihish: "My friends want to spar too!"
a tiny army of rinthi children arrive from nearby.
a tiny army of rinthi children arrive from nearby.
a tiny army of rinthi children arrive from nearby.
a tiny army of rinthi children arrive from nearby.
Eyeing you, a dirty, rinthi-kid says in rinthi-accented sirihish: "We're soooo hungry.. we should eat first."
A tiny army of rinthi children bites you on the hand, dealing frightening damage.
;D
Now, back on topic!
I've seen some c-elf opportunities pop up in the game recently and semi-recently, they seemed to be received really well if the sheer amount of elves popping out of chargen was any indication, it spoke volumes for how much the playerbase wants to see it work. C-elf tribes get brought up often and I've not got to experience any of them personally (I missed out on Akai and Jaxa both), my only concern would be the raw power a clan of c-elves can possess, I got to be on the receiving end of both Akai Sjir and Jaxa. Your Borsail noble + aide + guard or your hunting house with 3 hunters and a merchant will be at the mercy of a clan of city-ninjas and things can get whackily out of balance fairly quickly.
I wouldn't mind seeing a c-elf clan that required role applications and was limited to 3-4 characters at any given time.
Not really understanding this concept of balance when it comes to IC. A group of trusting, un-turnable individuals can shake up the game and cause some havoc? Sounds like a good time. People are afraid they might not be able to get back at the elves? Get good. It's not fun for the elves if they aren't putting themselves in some kind of risk. Capitalize on it.
Rath, not to be a dick, but staff CAN animate that rinthi NPC in the manner Majikal described. Further, she said it was a long time ago (or maybe I imagined that), we all make mistakes, especially when we're newbs... but you have two types of newbs, your creative newbs, and your grunt, squint, rough circle newbs. I'll take the former any day.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on September 03, 2016, 08:24:14 AM
Rath, not to be a dick, but staff CAN animate that rinthi NPC in the manner Majikal described. Further, she said it was a long time ago (or maybe I imagined that), we all make mistakes, especially when we're newbs... but you have two types of newbs, your creative newbs, and your grunt, squint, rough circle newbs. I'll take the former any day.
You're right - and Majikal was replying (I assume) to my statement that you can wish up to get that interaction - if staff are available. Also yeah - we all make mistakes - it's not like I've hopped on port and docked Nauta's karma.
I'll take either newbie. The grunting newbie is just as capable of learning Armageddon as the imaginative one is at not picking up the game culture.
I will literally kill the latter newb. The game doesn't need more boring twinks, I think the quota is filled. Picking up the game culture is a difficult task, but, I've been just, minding my own business and BAM, staff animation, usually good, quality shit there. I dislike grinding but players are sort of forced into it to stay competitive, lest they just be a wild chalton to a Badskeelz sort of neanderthal who shoots townies in the face just because they can. What about the people twinking a certain skill in a certain place? Couldn't they, you know, learn to expect feral gangs of flesh eating orphans to descend on them? It's always immersion breaking when you find the evidence later. I'd think there are bigger issues than someone tossing a sparring club to an NPC here.
Fool. You wouldn't last an hour in the rough circle.
Also, not trying to call Badskeelz out as BORING... the one character I'm aware of that he played was just unnapproachable if you played certain backgrounds, which is completely legit, I'm sure that character wasn't boring. I was merely bringing up the Badskeelz mafia strategy because he's not alone and there's a need to highlight that others do it.
I am not staff; therefore, I am not allowed to animate NPCs. Because of this fact, it seems obvious that I shouldn't exploit the code to "animate" them to do what I want them to do. Sure, it's creative, but the whole reason that you need to get creative in order to do that is because you're not actually able to do this and need to use shifty code workarounds.
You don't get to decide that your "disarm" attempt was really the NPC willingly dropping their weapon in favor of your sparring weapon. You don't get to decide that they want to spar with you just because you can force them to using code. That seems crazy to me.
Quote from: Beethoven on September 03, 2016, 09:05:03 AM
I am not staff; therefore, I am not allowed to animate NPCs. Because of this fact, it seems obvious that I shouldn't exploit the code to "animate" them to do what I want them to do. Sure, it's creative, but the whole reason that you need to get creative in order to do that is because you're not actually able to do this and need to use shifty code workarounds.
You don't get to decide that your "disarm" attempt was really the NPC willingly dropping their weapon in favor of your sparring weapon. You don't get to decide that they want to spar with you just because you can force them to using code. That seems crazy to me.
But that's the rub, isn't it? Nauta never said they were WILLING sparring partners. Your argument would disallow me from using the barter code to get a better price. NPCs are not off limits for interaction. Power-emoting is. It sounds like Nauta used the code to interact with an NPC, which is perfectly allowable provided actions weren't forced on them by emote. That said, when doing something like this, wish up and see if staff wants to play, too. You may die but at least it'll be memorable.
Quote from: nauta on September 02, 2016, 07:02:17 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 02, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 02, 2016, 06:12:42 PM
I dunno. I don't think City Elves are nearly as 'broken' as people make them out to be. Slap a tribe on them, and they work out just fine.
City elves really only work if you think it's kosher to treat 'rinth npc's as sparring buddies.
I'm not coming down on people that do it though.
It wasn't on my elf, but a human westsider: I used to disarm one of the rinth kids, give them a sparring club, and actually spar with them a bit, then disarm them again, take the sparring club, and head home for the day.
I don't think there's anything wrong with fighting NPCs in the rinth. I'd rather rinthers stick around inside the rinth, rather than join the Byn and never return.
As a reminder, this is what Nauta said. You are reading a bit into it, unless you, you know, actually witnessed it first hand, and if that's the case, you should've submitted a character complaint and let staff look into it. But I'm more inclined to believe you're assuming and drawing more into the picture than is really there because it's what I've come to expect from people.
I want to thank Rathustra for jumping in because anything I post in response after would've just made me seem snarky and mean.
That said, for people who does think this is a good option, remember that while NPCs aren't played by players, you should also remember that you also don't know what their responses are. But if you do want to create a relationship with an NPC, I think it is possible, by reporting these sort of things to staff as well as sending in logs, so that staff can determine how the NPC would react to you.
If you want to develop a relationship with a rinthi NPC kid, then by all means do. It's not your job to determine its reaction to your RP, but the staff's. So yes, it's entirely possible to do it, you just have to do it in a correct way.
...
Sorry for the derail. Let's go back to the topic.
I am all for opening city elf tribes again. I'd like to see the Jaxa Pah once again made available for play, because it's already IG. I've had good experience playing in that clan, and now that I'm slightly less newbie than before (still newbie), I'd love to try again.
Elves are bad mmmmkay?
Kankfly, let me again point out that Nauta never claimed to have developed a relationship with the NPC in question. She would simply use the disarm code to take their weapons, completely legit, then hand them a sparring weapon and fight them, along the lines of "git gud skrub", then disarm them again to take it back. You, too, are reading a lot into it. Did you witness this firsthand? Or are you simply filling in the gaps with assumptions? I ask because I encounter this problem frequently, it's a very human problem to make assumptions, I do it too, but I recognize it and try not to let it get out of hand, though it may be necessary for acting in the moment at times.
That said, let's stop derailing, one of my neighbors outside won't stop bitching, moaning and screaming, so it's got my nerves on edge. The topic is clanned/unclanned c-elves, not what Nauta does with her sparring weapons when she thinks no one is looking.
Shush, Dman, you're on my list now (totally joking). That said, that was bad. :P
So now, I'm usually not an advocate for summary post deletion and heavy moderation, but what is this thread about again? I forgot.
Quote from: Dar on September 03, 2016, 09:53:52 AM
So now, I'm usually not an advocate for summary post deletion and heavy moderation, but what is this thread about again? I forgot.
Get over your fear of tangents, they're a fact of life. The topic is a question which is two-fold. Is now the right time for c-elf hard-coded tribes, or at least c-elf friendly clans and/or gangs? And should the idea of tribeless d-elves be revisited, or virtual, non-coded tribal d-elf backgrounds? What are the merits and drawbacks, and potential problems of either? Should the east side of the rinth have a force to balance against the Guild (as it stands, anyone wanting to just murder all PC city elves who works up in the ranks can do so without consequence)? Discuss.
Tangents aside, celves being eligible for a (small) buff seems like something many people believe warranted. Delf-style running appears not to be the plan, and I can see how that's not very thematic, but I had another idea, a little while ago. It may be not terribly thematic, grossly overpowered, whatever else, but I think it might be interesting to give celves darkvision. Pretend it comes from all the nighttime activity, something else, I don't care. I can think of many ways to use it, but it's still a rather niche benefit.
I like it. I believe there is a coded way to see the rooms in the dark, without allowing living beings/objects be seen. Give that to them. Allow them to orientate perfectly in the dark, but they still need light to see living beings.
Quote from: Dar on September 03, 2016, 12:16:57 PM
I like it. I believe there is a coded way to see the rooms in the dark, without allowing living beings/objects be seen. Give that to them. Allow them to orientate perfectly in the dark, but they still need light to see living beings.
This would be cool. It would also buff them as thieves, because they could function completely in the dark and steal stuff from unsuspecting people if they lacked a torch or walked down a dark alley
I'm not for Desert Elves as a Lonefoot option. I agree that the SLK and Sun Runners are their own flavor, and if you aren't into that flavor, that's all there is. So it can either get boring or just not suit the concept you have in mind.That, and elves in these tribes tend to live a long time (relatively speaking), so if you don't enjoy playing around them, you're SOL. Sort of the same issue with only having Allanak around, not much to bump between.
I'd be all for a new D-elf Tribe, or the ability to apply for 'family roles' in the same way you can with cities. So you can come up with a basically 'nobody tribe' of Desert Elves, 4 people max, and same rules for the family roles.
I'd also be all for city elf tribes. As i've said before, I don't think these tribes need much. Some Documentation, limitations, how to punish people who step out of line or put the family at risk, common sayings. Staff can open or close tribes depending on need/want in Allanak, and to prevent a TPK turning into a revenge party (So if all 4 of a tribe are wiped out by a group/clan, 4 more don't just pour out of the sewer to get revenge against them). The tribe would still be a virtual presence, but not have PC presence for a few months.
If there were 4 tribes (2 in the Rinth, 2 in Allanak), Staff could decide if there were enough C-Elves bopping around, and soft cap the tribes. They wouldn't be app'd into like the SLK or Sun Runners, they would be opened and closed by Staff in a role call.
I will say, the prospect of Byn expeditions dragging a kicking and screaming celf along to toss into dark caves is one which makes me chuckle.
Quote from: Patuk on September 03, 2016, 01:02:18 PM
I will say, the prospect of Byn expeditions dragging a kicking and screaming celf along to toss into dark caves is one which makes me chuckle.
I guess the way to do this would be to give them 'master' direction sense, or a high starting direction sense. That way, they can move through darkness but not see people.
I mean, master direction sense would allow elves to walk through sandstorms and such as if they were nothing, too, which sounds like overkill. Without actually seeing others in the dark, the darkvision just isn't actually useful.
Oh. You mean straight up infra vision then.
Yes, I do.
Quote from: Patuk on September 03, 2016, 02:05:10 PM
Yes, I do.
It isn't exactly game breaking, as it's a pretty niche area/set of places that it would be useful. As a sewer dwelling tribe, I could totally see at least some city elves starting with infra vision. It'd almost be like...Do you want to play the sewer elf, or the roof top elf? One gets infra vision, the other gets master climb, regardless of guild/subguild. Sort of like how D-elves get sneak and hide.
If we're going to talk climb, I just want to note that city subguilds not getting it up as high as ranger does is ludicrous, but that equine has been beaten to death long ago as well.
without treading into current events, I just wanted to add that, to the best of my knowledge, city elf tribes already exist (player made)
Maybe retcon the worst of the elvish racism and allow city elves to join merchant clans?
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 02:41:37 PM
Maybe retcon the worst of the elvish racism and allow city elves to join merchant clans?
They can already join Kurac, no?
Quote from: Reiloth on September 03, 2016, 02:45:28 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 02:41:37 PM
Maybe retcon the worst of the elvish racism and allow city elves to join merchant clans?
They can already join Kurac, no?
Just the Fist. Allow them to join merchant ops as well.
And Salarr and Kadius.
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 02:46:35 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 03, 2016, 02:45:28 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 02:41:37 PM
Maybe retcon the worst of the elvish racism and allow city elves to join merchant clans?
They can already join Kurac, no?
Just the Fist. Allow them to join merchant ops as well.
And Salarr and Kadius.
Ehhhh....Not a fan, personally. I think Elves should be marginalized as it defines their character and place in the world. There's plenty of other Races you can play if you don't want to be blamed for literally every bad thing that happens in Allanak.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 03, 2016, 02:50:52 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 02:46:35 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 03, 2016, 02:45:28 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 02:41:37 PM
Maybe retcon the worst of the elvish racism and allow city elves to join merchant clans?
They can already join Kurac, no?
Just the Fist. Allow them to join merchant ops as well.
And Salarr and Kadius.
Ehhhh....Not a fan, personally. I think Elves should be marginalized as it defines their character and place in the world. There's plenty of other Races you can play if you don't want to be blamed for literally every bad thing that happens in Allanak.
This ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.
I think it should be a possibility. If for no other reason to ease the restrictions on what city elves can do.
And besides. Why wouldn't a merchant house want a street savvy, smooth talking, deal swinging, coin mongering sharp as a merchant? I'm certain someone in the GMH heirarchy can see it that way.
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 02:57:26 PM
I think it should be a possibility. If for no other reason to ease the restrictions on what city elves can do.
And besides. Why wouldn't a merchant house want a street savvy, smooth talking, deal swinging, coin mongering sharp as a merchant? I'm certain someone in the GMH heirarchy can see it that way.
Because no one in their right mind would trust an elf to not be selling them a shirt with no buttons that will unravel the moment they try it on?
Note that I don't think allowing celves into the GMH sales structure is going to magically fix them. I think they're just bad, and need some coded buff. That's all.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 03, 2016, 03:00:08 PM
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 02:57:26 PM
I think it should be a possibility. If for no other reason to ease the restrictions on what city elves can do.
And besides. Why wouldn't a merchant house want a street savvy, smooth talking, deal swinging, coin mongering sharp as a merchant? I'm certain someone in the GMH heirarchy can see it that way.
Because no one in their right mind would trust an elf to not be selling them a shirt with no buttons that will unravel the moment they try it on?
And yet they buy stuff all the time from the merchant just south of Red's? They go to the Blackwing outpost to trade? All sorts of characters make deals with the elven mafia and elven rapscallions.
Sunrunners sell everyone booze and weird sticks that work in wondrous ways.
Eh.
I don't think City Elves are so 'broken' that we need to fundamentally change their place in society. Do people deal with Elves? Sure, when they have to. But not when they go to Kadius to buy a shirt and they pawn some Elf on them as a merchant. That just doesn't fit with the setting.
I don't think the setting fits the elves, personally.
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 03:05:09 PM
I don't think the setting fits the elves, personally.
Really? I think Elves fit the setting wonderfully well.
QuoteThis ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.
It isn't that racism is too hard on elves. They're perpetual scammers, after all.
It's that no one bothers to be racist towards dwarves or giants in a meaningful way, because their 'racial leans' aren't something that results in you losing things. The half-giant stupidity has turned into comedy rather than liability. The dwarven stubbornness is used to make them -better- for clans, instead of a pain in the ass to deal with. Elves can't turn their nature into a boon for a clan as easily.
However, it's also what makes a well-played elf infinitely more interesting than either of those other two races. That is, of course, opinion only.
QuoteAnd besides. Why wouldn't a merchant house want a street savvy, smooth talking, deal swinging, coin mongering sharp as a merchant? I'm certain someone in the GMH heirarchy can see it that way.
I actually agree with this. But I view it as something that will be 'always an experiment'. There will be little exceptions to the overall rule throughout the game, or there should be, rather...but it will remain an overall rule in the case of elves. It's not that they're broken. But they are a xenophobic race whose standard of trust and loyalty is far beyond what people give them credit for. Meanwhile, it means so much to them, but there isn't necessarily a drive to force them to find it, either. I find the 'hardline' rule to be a little over the top, but not the overall idea of it being that way. The hardline just makes it so whenever someone does find a place for an elf, or an elf finds a place to let someone become trusted, other people regard them as in some way playing an exception. That is, as you say, a headcanon issue. But these exceptions are going to happen by the documentation itself, yet no one ever allows for it to happen without regarding it as a breach.
The problem again, is a perception thing. I can't be asked to see it as overly restrictive, because that's what makes sense to me for the race. It enhances the role. It makes it so that every person who tries to trust you becomes either a potential friend, or a potential target...depending on how you decide the character would view it, so it requires a shift in player mentality as well. The same way I really can't stand playing mages, or dwarves, or how I get bored with my half-giants at about 10 days in because they're just so fucking stupid...well, that may be the way some of you are with elves, and that's okay.
There seems to be some sort of weird disconnect.
Elf npc's get along just fine in day to day interactions with human. You see elven npc's everywhere, they have a presence in the commons, they have shops.
Yet somehow, players treat them like some sort of reviled minority that got shoveled into the labyrinth. There is nearly no documented evidence for that sort of player interaction and certainly nothing in the documentation that suggests that elves are a ghettoized minority.'
Not to mention that the elven documentation barely reflects the pc reality (as in most of the twenty year old documents, though elves I think are the worst). There is no nomadic lifestyle in that either city or desert elves engage in. Tests of loyalty are truncated if they are ever attempted at all. There should be no reasonable elven solidarity even though there apparantly is in places like the eastside labyrinth etc.
I'm so confused, are we -NOT- supposed to be racist towards elves? this goes against everything I thought I knew.
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 03:18:52 PM
There seems to be some sort of weird disconnect.
Elf npc's get along just fine in day to day interactions with human. You see elven npc's everywhere, they have a presence in the commons, they have shops.
Yet somehow, players treat them like some sort of reviled minority that got shoveled into the labyrinth. There is nearly no documented evidence for that sort of player interaction and certainly nothing in the documentation that suggests that elves are a ghettoized minority.'
Not to mention that the elven documentation barely reflects the pc reality (as in most of the twenty year old documents, though elves I think are the worst). There is no nomadic lifestyle in that either city or desert elves engage in. Tests of loyalty are truncated if they are ever attempted at all. There should be no reasonable elven solidarity even though there apparantly is in places like the eastside labyrinth etc.
This is all pretty extreme opinion, and I don't find it to be true in actuality in the game. They're the 2nd most populous race in the game -- Recently, in Allanak, there was a surge of city elves, and when 5-7 of them started hanging out in the Gaj, people got very uncomfortable in a realistic way.
Tests of Loyalty are still a very real and practiced habit among all city elves i've seen.
There's very little elven solidarity outside of tribal solidarity. I've never really seen elves band together just because they're elves. Sure, they might get along easier with another elf, but then again, maybe not. They're quite familiar with how elves act, and they might think an elf is scamming them more often than a Human.
Nomadic lifestyle, sure, i'll give you that one. Elves being the 'ghettoized minority' is sort of a naturally progressed player thing. If it bothers you so much, you don't need to play a city elf. But I think a few of us (Armaddict and myself come to mind) not only enjoy playing city elves, but don't think they're broken really. So, in essence, if you aren't going to play one, what's the big deal?
QuoteElf npc's get along just fine in day to day interactions with human. You see elven npc's everywhere, they have a presence in the commons, they have shops.
This ties in with what I said earlier; most people, when they play an elf, turn it into something villainous and heinous and shitty. But as a whole, the race (rather than people who just want them to be the villains the stereotype pushes them to) clearly engage in certain sectors of society...but they have been marginalized a long time, and yes that is in documentation in places. It was true in dark sun, and it was and always has been true here. While we certainly push it really far in the effort to maintain the racism and standpoint, it's going to be there regardless. But yes, it can certainly be stepped back to the point that PC's aren't just forced to be complete loners.
But it's important to realize that a lone elf without a tribe, in their mind, will indeed still be a loner until such a time that they do have people run through tests.
QuoteYet somehow, players treat them like some sort of reviled minority that got shoveled into the labyrinth. There is nearly no documented evidence for that sort of player interaction and certainly nothing in the documentation that suggests that elves are a ghettoized minority.'
The 'somehow' is a big list of things, I think. But you're correct in that most of the treatment is playerside, with support from such statements as 'We don't hire elves'. I don't consider it odd that businesses and enterprises don't trust an elf with their profits and well-being. I -do- consider it odd that players who play elves try to make them worthy of the racism instead of letting the racism be overplayed or false. It's one of the few places in the game where you have people adhering to the documentation so hard that they completely overdo it (and generally get themselves killed in the process).
QuoteTests of loyalty are truncated if they are ever attempted at all.
While I agree that the nomadic part of your closing on your post is pretty true, I also consider it enough of a minor detail that it doesn't matter much. We're in a static sandbox, and there simply isn't enough to really 'wander'. Allanak isn't so big that a city-confined elf can move from place to place physically that much...though the irony is that earlier in the thread, it was stated that someone didn't like how people left the labyrinth and moved on to other things. It does tend to happen, that movement between eastside elves and southside and back again. However, this bit about the tests of loyalty, I find completely untrue. Almost every social interaction I have with elves is a poke and prod and something where I want to hear certain things out of that person. If they say the right thing? Test it again. Test it again. Test it again. If they are consistently behaving in a way where you approve, and you're creating those chances for that behavior, they are passing tests. I think tests, in particular, became overly mechanized and made into something so obvious that it detracts from the elven way of doing things.
So far as elven solidarity, I completely disagree. For what loyalty and trust are to elves, it would make sense for them to feel that only other elves 'get it'. For their nature in tests of loyalty, for their natural intent to maximize benefit for themselves in all things...all of their ways make it easier for them to clump together. Even without 'true' solidarity (where I agree, a unified elven front would be ridiculous, and this is why I get irritated by things like the Jaxa), it makes sense for them to be more inclined towards each other than others.
That is all opinion, of course...but so are yours. And I kind of reiterate that it might just be something that you, the player, aren't cut out for, but that doesn't make them less fitting for the game.
Quote from: 650Booger on September 03, 2016, 03:35:22 PM
I'm so confused, are we -NOT- supposed to be racist towards elves? this goes against everything I thought I knew.
No, you are. I think the perspective is the big deal. Be racist to elves...but be racist to other things as well. As a human, remember dwarves piss you off to deal with because they're impossible and unrelenting, half-giants can't even make deals because they get distracted and can't figure it out, and elves are incredibly easy to deal with, but they always find a way to make it so that you were, in some way, deceived (not necessarily shorted, but elves will make you feel manipulated).
Quote from: Patuk on September 03, 2016, 02:55:54 PM
This ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.
Dwarves and half-giants can be represented members of most Noble and Merchant Houses, elves can't. That's pretty huge when it comes to social status. Commoners also yearn to be like nobles, mimicking dress and style of the Nakki upper crust, the upper crust does not acknowledge elves. If you want to be fancy, neither do you.
I would say that an elven's "hive mind" mentality, the culture of theft that surrounds them (not that other races don't do these same things), the proud nature of elves (elves will hold the slightest insult over your head for years, they look down on YOU as the lesser race forget), the fact that they have a tribe and you probably don't means that your pc has most likely had some resentment for elves growing up or maybe suffered their wrath. Most 'companionship's' with elves are even troublesome, even when elves are befriending other elves because of tests of loyalty:
Most elves will want a potential companion to pass a number of tests of increasing risk to the tester before they will trust someone. So while the elf is putting themselves at risk for these tests, they are asking you for something, in a world where favors mean everything.
There are many reasons for your pc not to trust an elf because of their culture. There are reasons for you to fear elves because of their culture. There are many reasons for you to hate elves because of their culture. There are social implications that come with being around elves so maybe your negative interactions with elves is just to maintain your appearances. Racial divides in Armageddon are strong.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 03, 2016, 03:41:00 PM
dark sun
lol
If we're going to use Dark Sun as an example, our celves are even more underpowered than they already are.
Quote from: Patuk on September 03, 2016, 03:46:44 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on September 03, 2016, 03:41:00 PM
Quotedark sun
lol
If we're going to use Dark Sun as an example, our celves are even more underpowered than they already are.
There's an important thing called context. When you quote it down like this, it takes it out. But the context was that there was really no basis for saying elves 'should be' this, in terms of either the history of here, or in the place that most closely mirrors Zalanthan elves.
Quote from: Majikal on September 03, 2016, 03:45:55 PM
Quote from: Patuk on September 03, 2016, 02:55:54 PM
This ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.
Dwarves and half-giants can be represented members of most Noble and Merchant Houses, elves can't. That's pretty huge when it comes to social status. Commoners also yearn to be like nobles, mimicking dress and style of the Nakki upper crust, the upper crust does not acknowledge elves. If you want to be fancy, neither do you.
I would say that an elven's "hive mind" mentality, the culture of theft that surrounds them (not that other races don't do these same things), the proud nature of elves (elves will hold the slightest insult over your head for years, they look down on YOU as the lesser race forget), the fact that they have a tribe and you probably don't means that your pc has most likely had some resentment for elves growing up or maybe suffered their wrath. Most 'companionship's' with elves are even troublesome, even when elves are befriending other elves because of tests of loyalty: Most elves will want a potential companion to pass a number of tests of increasing risk to the tester before they will trust someone. So while the elf is putting themselves at risk for these tests, they are asking you for something, in a world where favors mean everything.
There are many reasons for your pc not to trust an elf because of their culture. There are reasons for you to fear elves because of their culture. There are many reasons for you to hate elves because of their culture. There are social implications that come with being around elves so maybe your negative interactions with elves is just to maintain your appearances. Racial divides in Armageddon are strong.
And the documentation also explicitly states that elves can be the most loyal of friends. And there is nowhere in the documentation that says elves have a preference for elves. It even suggests there is an aversion to non-tribe elves.
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Majikal on September 03, 2016, 03:45:55 PM
Quote from: Patuk on September 03, 2016, 02:55:54 PM
This ties in to Jingo's point of it being headcanon, so please point me to the place in the documentation where it says elves have it worse than dwarves or half-giants.
Dwarves and half-giants can be represented members of most Noble and Merchant Houses, elves can't. That's pretty huge when it comes to social status. Commoners also yearn to be like nobles, mimicking dress and style of the Nakki upper crust, the upper crust does not acknowledge elves. If you want to be fancy, neither do you.
I would say that an elven's "hive mind" mentality, the culture of theft that surrounds them (not that other races don't do these same things), the proud nature of elves (elves will hold the slightest insult over your head for years, they look down on YOU as the lesser race forget), the fact that they have a tribe and you probably don't means that your pc has most likely had some resentment for elves growing up or maybe suffered their wrath. Most 'companionship's' with elves are even troublesome, even when elves are befriending other elves because of tests of loyalty: Most elves will want a potential companion to pass a number of tests of increasing risk to the tester before they will trust someone. So while the elf is putting themselves at risk for these tests, they are asking you for something, in a world where favors mean everything.
There are many reasons for your pc not to trust an elf because of their culture. There are reasons for you to fear elves because of their culture. There are many reasons for you to hate elves because of their culture. There are social implications that come with being around elves so maybe your negative interactions with elves is just to maintain your appearances. Racial divides in Armageddon are strong.
And the documentation also explicitly states that elves can be the most loyal of friends. And there is nowhere in the documentation that says elves have a preference for elves. It even suggests there is an aversion to non-tribe elves.
I wasn't trying to imply elves have a preference for elves. And yes, while elves can be the most loyal of friends they never get there without a trial of the character in question, which is to ask a lot of someone in a world like Zalanthas and opens the door for a friendship to end in a multitude of ways.
City elves are difficult to play, low powered, and generally disadvantaged. Some people find that rewarding -- I did -- and some people disagree outright with my statement, I suspect because world knowledge + patience can be a great equalizer.
I like the infravision idea... that's definitely some leftfield thinking. But I think it would have to be applied carefully if at all. I've never had a character with infravision but I think you could make a joke out of the NPC game world with it (most of them don't codedly carry torches!)
A random thought for a city elf tribe: with instant mental communication, a 'distributed' tribe would be an interesting concept. A "city" elf tribe with members in Red Storm, Allanak, Luir's, and even the wild north. Members of that tribe might have access to who c, but they wouldn't have any benefits like clan lodges, etc. They'd work by themselves or in small subgroups, and set up trade with the other locations for mutual benefit. Maybe they'd keep their tribal membership a secret, because who needs to know? (I think this would work for any undercover trade organization, but why not a city elf tribe as well?)
Quote from: Jingo on September 03, 2016, 03:56:19 PM
And the documentation also explicitly states that elves can be the most loyal of friends. And there is nowhere in the documentation that says elves have a preference for elves. It even suggests there is an aversion to non-tribe elves.
I always liked the idea of the human (or dwarf) + elf duo. You just know by association that the human must be a legit dirtbag to be on the same wavelength as an elf.
Or maybe the humans' exceptional character to earn himself an elven loyalty.
naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, just kidding :).
Quote from: Dar on September 04, 2016, 01:24:14 AM
naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, just kidding :).
I lol'd.
Its either the human is a dirtbag, or the Stump is being tricked into being a pack animal, one or the other.
Make is so all elves aren't thieves, just that they have a natural ability for it.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 04, 2016, 10:40:59 AM
Make is so all elves aren't thieves, just that they have a natural ability for it.
This is already the case. The documentation already says that elves have a broader definition of thievery than most races, and hardly view it as a crime.
Except all those broader thieving definitions basically equal to just being thieves to the rest of the population. :-\
There has been a lot of discussion on elves over the years. On their RP, their skills, their abilities, their tribes and clans or lack there of. The fact they can't ride mounts, or use skimmers or even wagons really limits them in the clans they can join. The list goes on and on, and there have been plenty of good ideas to try to fix one or two things.
The short of it is this, city elves was a poorly implemented race, dating back to the in the infancy of this game I believe. Which is to be expected from a race that was a mere copy of the actual race we find in Dark Sun which are desert elves. As we can see, desert elves are much better designed and thus more enjoyable to play and even their RP quirks of not using mounts makes sense for them.
City elves race concept has many short comings which cannot be so easily addressed by any one single idea alone. It would require a combination of all these solutions to bring city elves in line with the other much better desgined races. Unfortunately this would mean replacing everything we know to be c-elves completely. They would need to be re-conned.
Another possibility is to have city elves phased out, maybe dying off in cities and what survives moving to live with the remaining desert elves tribe. With the idea that the desert elves through tough circumstances, would need to build more connections and dealing within cities, making them a little less rare there.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on September 04, 2016, 01:33:56 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 04, 2016, 10:40:59 AM
Make is so all elves aren't thieves, just that they have a natural ability for it.
This is already the case. The documentation already says that elves have a broader definition of thievery than most races, and hardly view it as a crime.
That's what I'm saying hough. Stop making elves have to come up with weird reasons that they're a hunter/gatherer. "I steal this meat from the corpse of the carru I just killed." Type of BS. Make it so that they aren't all treated as thieves because they aren't all thieves.
Quote from: Dar on September 02, 2016, 11:15:08 PM
Celven tribes are fucking powerful. They're more powerful then Guild. They're more powerful then merchant houses. They're powerful due to their sheer loyalty and impossibility for betrayal. Which sadly often makes annihilation the only certain way of influence on these tribes. You cant flip them, you cant get them to rat on each other, you cant infiltrate them. Any kind of influence on them either involves placating them, having someone hostage, which oh so often turns into a blood bath anyway.
I think this is a good argument. I'm not sure if I'm convinced, however. So three points:
1. Desert Elves are loyal to each other AND codedly powerful...
2. The Guild (and other clans) have other things to counterbalance the auto-loyalty issue, e.g., safe places, NPCs that back them up in a fight, muls, giants, even magick sometimes, etc., and the virtual world.
3. A City Elf should have their tribe always in the front of their minds. Hence, if they do something stupid, their tribemates (both real and virtual) might well suffer the consequences.
I dunno, I guess I see the PC-tribe as a good counterbalance to the low stats / racism vis-a-vis the city elf.
That said, I can see where you are coming from, especially if the tribe in question had lofty goals, e.g., to be the criminal boss-gang of eastside. If this were an established playable tribe, there'd be no stopping them, not just because of the auto-loyalty thing, but also because new elves would pop in and exact revenge for the death's of the old elves. (I'm sure those more experienced with PC elf tribes could have some things to say here.)
I suppose it would require that whatever tribes get implemented, the documentation would have to curb and check this aspect. But I don't know if I'd go so far as to suggest that there's no workable solution here; the solution would be in writing up a careful set of documents.
(As to the 'middle ground' solution, I could see this too: abandon the whole notion of 'tribe' for city elves, open up an 'eastside' multikulti clan gang, open to breeds, elves, dwarves... I just think there is a lot of good RP opportunities in RPing out the tribal mindset in the context of a city environment.)
This dumb thread is making me want to play an elf, damnit.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 04, 2016, 03:46:44 PM
This dumb thread is making me want to play an elf, damnit.
For what it's worth, I think you'd play a pretty fantastic elf if you got immersed into the mindset. I think most people would. It's just...a lot different sort of satisfaction than the more straightforward success stories. Just find a way to live long enough until you have people you can manipulate for your ends (not necessarily to their detriment; this is a major problem people have with elves imo, is that they think they have to be constantly fucking people to be doing it right.), and I think you'd do great.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 04, 2016, 03:54:23 PM(not necessarily to their detriment; this is a major problem people have with elves imo, is that they think they have to be constantly fucking people to be doing it right.)
This is so true, right here.
Elves pride themselves on the nebulous concept of "theft," but the mental gymnastics they perform to make everything fit that can be pretty amazing. The "long con" is often far more rewarding than the short con, and if that "long con" happens to result in some non-standard "theft," even better. A lot of it can fall under the blanket umbrella of "receiving something usually reserved for humans," be it respect, admiration, safety, friendship, even love - or things as nebulous a concept as knowledge. "I learned how to get X poison and perform Y technique during my stint in the Byn, which will further my tribe (or just me)."
It's a very, very interesting role if you take it and run with it (yay puns!). And, in my experience, while people don't necessarily soften the racism just for you, when they see you're playing an elf that's not a straight up "let's overtly and obviously fuck everyone over every single chance we get" type, they tend to interact with you a LOT more.
I think many people play humans, in the same way I would play an elf. A coniving piece of shit, that while not technically evil is still very much an asshole at times. Not 24/7 mind you, at home he is kanking the tressy elves, but in the public he is a coniving son of a bitch that makes an effort to have everyone give him things.
Not a fast fingered asshole. (Lol) but a fast talking asshole basically.
I would really rather see elves changed so they can join and enjoy playing in more current city clans rather than add more niche tribes/clans to the game. The same way dwarves/half-elves 'fit' in with racism and predujices mixed in. I really feel bringing in a city elf only clan/tribe will hurt the game, while at the same time not really improve the city elf experience very much at all either. They can already join byn and kurac( just like obvious half-elves), and it hasn't really helped them much.
If a race regardless of role is having trouble joining the RPT the staff enjoys putting together in the middle of nowhare, perhaps thats something that should get looked at from a game design playability perspective.
Quote from: Dresan on September 04, 2016, 06:29:57 PM
I would really rather see elves changed so they can join and enjoy playing in more current city clans rather than add more niche tribes/clans to the game. The same way dwarves/half-elves 'fit' in with racism and predujices mixed in. I really feel bringing in a city elf only clan/tribe will hurt the game, while at the same time not really improve the city elf experience very much at all either. They can already join byn and kurac( just like obvious half-elves), and it hasn't really helped them much.
If a race regardless of role is having trouble joining the RPT the staff enjoys putting together in the middle of nowhare, perhaps thats something that should get looked at from a game design playability perspective.
Fair point.
I'm honestly inclined to agree, as well. Wider interaction opportunities are better than more-but-narrower interaction opportunities.
I would personally like to see more across the board racism, eg people actually hating on people for the 'right' reasons.
Elves = slippery bastards.
Dwarves = Single-minded obsessive nutjobs.
Half-giants = Low intelligence 'bumbling fools'
I am against infravision. Because, it's infravision - which means you can see anyone - maxed out hide/sneak with sneak gear too, without scan. Screw that. That makes elves way too powerful.
Well I would assume it would be more like Night Vision if it was given. Or you know like what elves have in D&D. Low light vision.
I think the best way to handle racism IG is to allow inclusion but be discriminatory - only human officers, different racial pay grades, preference on humans, without fully excluding the would be lesser races except on a PC leader by PC leader basis. That's more or less how racism manifests IRL. Full exclusion means that the lines between races are much more delineated and seem to result in RP exclusion as well as fewer PCs playing these races.
I don't see any issues with making elves and helves useful in a clan sense while making them the kicked dogs - that's how it should be giants and dwarves too.
For races like dwarves or giants, you could create an intelligence stigma by having their max language at 95% or so. I do think that dwarves need greater penalty than is currently given, and celfs given less.
Dwarves/helves are also much rarer than elves. Elves are a mass population. People should be able to relate to elves better. They don't cloister, and they seem inclined to interact with the other populations.
there should be a sliding scale of animosity by humans towards elves. the low end being 'I don't really have a problem with them' and the high end being 'I will attempt to cause the demise of every elf I come into contact with', with every human character falling somewhere in the scale, but not necessarily at either extreme. there shouldn't be one anti-elf behavioral doctrine that everybody has to follow.
this is pretty much how it is now, so I am happy.
Lets compare elves to half-elves for a moment:
- Half-elves have no tribes or clans of their own.
- Half-elves are treated absolutely horribly by both Humans and Elves.
- Half-elves can also only join byn and Kurac.
- Half-elves have confusing RP not even the staff can always fully agree on, because half-elves are crazy and bi-polar. How much so is left up to the players
- Half-elves aren't really known for their amazing stats either in comparison to human and dwarves.
Yet we have threads along these lines: 'There are too many half-elves' , 'there are too many people kanking breeds', 'Hi this is staff, please keep in mind there are downsides to playing half-elves, only mentioning this cuz we see alot of them recently'.
I agree that elven RP needing to be some sort of theif or con artist thing is kind of annoying but again not sure that is their main problem. Frankly, I would say being very city-bound both RP-wise and mechanically is the core of the problem. I believe staff have said before they don't intend to change this, instead improve the condition of c-elves in the city (history has proven can turn out to be a terrible idea for everyone). To be fair though, staff once said warriors would never get backstab or close Tuluk. However, things change and thats really a good thing. ;D
Quote from: Case on September 04, 2016, 07:26:12 PM
I think the best way to handle racism IG is to allow inclusion but be discriminatory - only human officers, different racial pay grades, preference on humans, without fully excluding the would be lesser races except on a PC leader by PC leader basis. That's more or less how racism manifests IRL. Full exclusion means that the lines between races are much more delineated and seem to result in RP exclusion as well as fewer PCs playing these races.
I don't see any issues with making elves and helves useful in a clan sense while making them the kicked dogs - that's how it should be giants and dwarves too.
For races like dwarves or giants, you could create an intelligence stigma by having their max language at 95% or so. I do think that dwarves need greater penalty than is currently given, and celfs given less.
Dwarves/helves are also much rarer than elves. Elves are a mass population. People should be able to relate to elves better. They don't cloister, and they seem inclined to interact with the other populations.
All my yes. Well put.
Case is pretty much spot on, with how the best of all worlds would be with it. I believe that while an elf will work for money, they will probably rip their employer off if they were able to in anyway, but given the fact they actually have a job they may only rip them off a few sids each time perhaps.
As for joining all clans, not quite all I dont think. E.g. the Arm of the Dragon is historically human/half-giant only. And I have never seen an example of them using elves in any function. All the other clans use elves, as slaves sure, but still use them.
Quote from: Hauwke on September 04, 2016, 10:50:11 PM
Case is pretty much spot on, with how the best of all worlds would be with it. I believe that while an elf will work for money, they will probably rip their employer off if they were able to in anyway, but given the fact they actually have a job they may only rip them off a few sids each time perhaps.
As for joining all clans, not quite all I dont think. E.g. the Arm of the Dragon is historically human/half-giant only. And I have never seen an example of them using elves in any function. All the other clans use elves, as slaves sure, but still use them.
Elves are terrible slaves.
The thread should be renamed.
Elves: The Eternal Thread
I am much too lazy this late (been out fishin') to quote the exact posts I saw it in, but anyway...
I actually like the somewhat singular area of a clan for RP. It makes it challenged to me, so I'm still like 100% for coded celf tribes.
I have seen plenty of coded groups sdesced as slaves while the full desc lists them as being elves and such mixed in.
Aside, I agree they make terrible slaves too weak to lift that noble and his fat ass girlfriend.
Quote from: Hauwke on September 05, 2016, 12:58:30 AM
I have seen plenty of coded groups sdesced as slaves while the full desc lists them as being elves and such mixed in.
Aside, I agree they make terrible slaves too weak to lift that noble and his fat ass girlfriend.
They complain and try run away. In Allanak, half the humans are slaves, and only 10% of the elves. The elvish population isn't much smaller than the human one. Elves just don't do slavery well - smart, tribe focused and cunning. Escaping becomes the theft.
If c-elves could have a ability to run, we would not be seeing these threads every couple of months. They would still not be able to become rangers, so they will never be as OP as desert elves. C-elves can already roll warrior with extended sub-guilds and its not breaking the game.
The only thing this would allow them to do is get to luirs, be more useful when patrolling/hunting with your kuraci/byn crew and enjoy RPTs without fustration. It is not like c-elves don't try to manage this already but the game makes it needlessly fustrating though RP qurks and coded mechanics with absolutely no benefit to the game whatsoever. We lose out in racism, awkward attractions, tension and everything in between thats comes form having to work closely with people that are truely different from humans.
Unforunately, I've seen myself keep repeating myself every couple of threds too on this subject. I can't believe we've seen massive changes including warriors getting backstab, tuluk close, magickal guilds get turned into sub-guilds. However despite that, I don't see c-elves getting changes anytime soon.
Quote from: nauta on September 02, 2016, 12:25:43 PM
I know it's been discussed over and over and over again -- but actually, in the last little bit, there hasn't been much discussion. In any case, it's been on my mind. So here's a two-fold proposal, and I'd be interested in hearing what players thought about this.
1. Desert Elves from a Non-Coded Tribe: You could either be from a virtual tribe or a lonefoot.
2. City Elves from a Coded Tribe: Pretty self explanatory. I wouldn't mind seeing two coded tribes, perhaps parallel to the two Desert Elf Tribes: one tribe of sexy wide-ranging drunks (like the Sun Runners) and one tribe of dour brutal territorial cry babies (the SLK); perhaps the one would be Southside-based, the other Labyrinth-based.[1]
Right now, curiously enough, the situation is opposite: You can play a lonefoot or virtual tribed city elf but not a coded tribe city elf; and you can play a coded tribe desert elf but not a lonefoot or virtual tribed desert elf. (Automatically, that is -- you can, of course, put in a special application for a lonefoot / virtual-tribed desert elf or put in a request to make a player-crated family for tribed city elves.)
Motivation: The main motivation here is RP opportunities: I find it really interesting to interact with / play a lonefoot elf -- and I also find it really interested to interact with / play a tribed elf (with a real PC-populated tribe). It's a lot of good RP times, and I don't really -- from a player perspective -- understand why #1 is an impossibility: desert elves are karma required and, ultimately, a lonefoot desert elf (or a desert elf from a virtual tribe) isn't that codedly powerful, all things considered; I've also never heard why #2 is a impossibility, since the coded city elf tribes closed before my time here.
[1] One curious thing to handle would be how the Rinth city elf tribe interacts with the (virtual and NPC) Jaxa Pah. On the westisde, the PCs join the clan which /runs/ the westside. While you could just make things parallel -- open the Jaxa for play -- it might be more interesting to eliminate the Jaxa altogether.
Also, please, please, please try to keep this thread focused. Hence, if you are about to post something, read it over again, and think: is this snark that will make nauta cry? Will this derail the thread? Is my toast finished?
To keep this focused rather than a diatribe of pages full of suggestions...
1 - Lonefoot d-elves would be fun... But it would lead to something that isn't noted w. the d-elf world / roleplay... Bored d-elf players sitting around in Taverns in Allanak / Luirs on a regular basis to get some RP in... You wouldn't have the structure and guidelines from a tribe that help maintain the mindset and focus of the tribe. I think it would really mess up d-elves as a whole rather than help them.
COULD there be another tribe? Yes. For sure. Something new? Perhaps. Something old? Better. Red Fangs? Good. Dune Stalkers? Good. Some antagonist. Headache for staff? They'll be some for sure but in the big picture it will help the gameworld more than hinder. Arm needs 3 tribes for desert elves or loosen SLK's noose a bit.
So in effect... I'm completely against lonefoot d-elves
**UNLESS YOU SPEC-APP** and it's scrutinized as a Sorc App. Guidelines for play. Mostly Iso to Tablelands or some region. If you're caught w. your ass in the Gaj or Luirs for days on end, adios to storage.
2 - C-Elves need a tribe they can play in. That's for sure. It's hard for C-elf players b/c C-elves are hard af to play right. What you don't want is some BS where it's Black VS White in the Rinth. I.E. Jaxa vs Guild. That's boring AF and = 2 weeks of fun then 6 months of boredom b/c one side is totally wiped out and gimped. C-elves in the Rinth, if a tribe is really supposed to be active and realistic, already have 3 antagonists who are bigger...
1. Southside Bullshit - Lump houses, Templars and everyone else in here.
2. Westside - Guild, etc.
3. Kurac - Won't say more. But if suddenly you're planning a Rinth tribe and making moves, it should be considered and could be a big fucking problem.
So whatever tribe that is opened / made in the Rinth, MUST have LOGICAL answers for all three...
One more problem is that b/c of the C-elf mindset,
you can't have some "we are zealots for the Highlord", even if it's a 'sekret'. That goes against everything about c-elf doc and RP. They are self-serving (self = tribe) motherfuckers. If you go for the Highlord or politicks before the tribe, you're doing it wrong.
That's what made the Akai so retarded for ages. They had some good c-elves, but in principle for the them to operate, they had to get fucked w. a strap-on by a Lith Templar.
No thanks.
A c-elf tribe should be an antagonist for all. Not with stab-stab-stab, but in the true sense that they are working ONLY for themselves and have managed to make everyone else work for them / NEED them to exist... See everything I did w. my last c-elf.
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IN EFFECT RE: TRIBE IN THE RINTH: Staff needs a tribe that LOGICALLY puts them in a position to exist while NOT being bitched and combines RP that maintains that status quo (politicks) with stab-stab-stab... Which you already have b/c... it's the fucking Rinth.
The 2 tribe suggestion is a good one. Would = lots of work for staff. Simple solution is to:
Some forced RPT / HRPT in the Rinth that shifts Jaxa Pah a bit. Shrinkens the # of families or they split...
INTO TWO TRIBES...
1 tribe is focused on being super iso-badass, stab-stab-stab. They SHOULD BE the best Assassins / Killers in the game. Without question. Contacting them for a hit should be dangerous af. Templars should 2nd guess hiring them. Nobles should know better. Commoner PCs should be afraid as they're parents used them as horror stories:
'Stay out late and XXX will get you.'2 tribe is focused on black market / skull-fuckary. Nenyuk of the underworld. Fences. Arms dealing / smuggling (sell to Gith. Sell to everyone). Money lending. Dope peddling. This tribe pops up now and then in Luirs. In Red Storm. Even north of the shield wall. But NEVER Southside and never anyplace else other than for business. You see them and you want to HATE them for thinking you're about to get robbed... But at the same time YOU initiate a conversation because you want to see what tye have for trade... and if you need anything, they can get it for you... For a price.
Both tribes are linked together at the top by blood or some alliance.
This would work. And work well. You cover all bases. You give a TRIBE to something that virtually already would / does exist and let players get in on the action w.o them having to spend 2-3 RL Y E A R S in building some coded tribe that should already be in place.
I volunteer to help as I'm impartial in the right ways. I'd take time from work to help craft this.
srsly. I would help structure this if staff needs. just email me and let me know.
Quote from: Dakota on September 05, 2016, 06:35:36 AM
I think the celf rinth idea is missing the point, especially this iso stab clan.
I'd rather see a rinth with both elves and humans working together, a guild on top of that as a kind of royalty or shadow group and the focus on their dealings with the south. Neutral rinthis and southerners get caught in the crossfire.
I think celves should get the desert run ability that desert elves get. Not only do they not have access to Ranger (and thus lack a high direction sense that is kind of neccessary to traverse the outside in any meaningful way) they also lack the hilariously high stamina of desert elves meanining they're still worse off in comparison. Honestly something needs to be done, and I feel staff should at least come out and say it's an issue that will be looked into, even if it's not going to be fixed immediately.
They have said they're doing a c-elf tribe. Nothing ever seems to come of it though.
'rinth-based c-elf tribes will never flourish beyond more than a flash in the pan, for a few reasons:
1. The completely irrational berserker player response to theft of all sorts.
2. C-elves aren't karma-restricted, which means noobs can get in and fuck everything up for everyone else.
3. They don't have a natural non-aggro basis for interaction with the rest of the playerbase.
4. It's far too easy for roundear bounty hunters to get deep into the eastside, murder elf PCs, then get away
5. Crime code is brutal, and even veteran status can't prevent you from failing a dice roll every once in a while.
6. Not being able to travel is painfully boring.
7. City-elves are super weak when it comes to noob-status combat, and it takes a long, long time to get competitive with dwarves and strong humans.
The only time I had a successful member of the Jaxa Pah, I made it up to Voice...but it was primarily because I was playing a merchant very shortly after the mastercrafting stuff went in (no extended subguilds yet), so powerful PCs had a few decent reasons not to murder my PC:
1. I was one of the few PCs in the game that could mastercraft Neat Stuff
2. Everyone knew OOCly that I was a merchant, so -I- certainly wasn't going to be PKing anybody or taking their stuff
3. I was trading with numerous other PCs probably to the tune of tens of thousands of 'sids per RL week, and nobody wanted to derail that gravy train
Even then...I spent very little time in the actual 'rinth. The fact that my PC attained such a high rank was pretty much a complete stretch of the docs, to accommodate the in-game situation, because the PC was a no-tribe southsider starting out. When I was in the 'rinth, I ran as fast as I could back-and-forth to clan-only safe spots. The Jaxa Pah itself flourished for a little while, because even though I stored out of boredom, I had accumulated a MASSIVE stockpile of various useful things for the clan.
In order for a 'rinth-based c-elf tribe to flourish they need:
1. Karma or highly-vetted special app restriction
2. A reason for the rest of the game to interact with them that doesn't involve killing on sight
3. A real safe haven
Even if those were provided...the combination of starting out as a pathetic weakling, brutal crime-response, and static-location boredom will probably always be overwhelming, and those aren't things that are likely to be changed at all.
Whew, that was close. Thanks Synth, totally cured me of my desire to make that elf.
I once played a pretty successful c-elf thief but that required me to pretty much not interact with the playerbase at all for like a RL month or two to practice my stealing skillz, and then I tried to interact as little as possible because I knew that the minute someone would spot me it'd be the end of my thief'ing career.
The funny thing was watching every new c-elves being branded thieves and harassed non-stop by the entire Allanaki populace because they couldn't figure out who the thief was so the natural response was that every single elf PCs spotted was probably it.
If you like being social and actual role-playing I certainly don't recommend playing a c-elf. If you play Arm for the lulz (like I've mostly been doing in the last 2 years), then c-elf pickpockets can be pretty entertaining (until you make a mistake and/or someone spots you). No amount of bribing anyone will save you.
I'm still overwhelmingly curious when westside became not-elf only.
Several elves of mine were involved in the guild early on, and several leaders of the guild have also been elves.
Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought city elves were reasonably able to cover the distances between nearby settlements. I know roads take less stamina than dunes and craters, and there are a few subguilds with direction sense... so it's probably possible?
Quote from: Armaddict on September 05, 2016, 01:26:49 PM
I'm still overwhelmingly curious when westside became not-elf only.
Several elves of mine were involved in the guild early on, and several leaders of the guild have also been elves.
I dunno, I think it was a player mentality shift. I also remember when it was just 'The Labyrinth', and elves and humans were on both sides of the map. But I guess it was just an organic thing over time, and the Jaxa Pah certainly made it more solidified.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 05, 2016, 11:57:19 AM
Whew, that was close. Thanks Synth, totally cured me of my desire to make that elf.
He sure makes me miss playing a merchant though.
I do like the idea of the guild changing to allow elves to join the ranks by being changed taking a more middle ground neutral approach to the warring sides between east and west side. While i know the staff have stated they had a c-elf tribe idea in mind, but I too am glad nothing has come out of it. It would be diluting player resources from other stable clans for what is sadly a niche race at the moment.
Additional C-elves only clan/tribes (outside player made ones) are not good for the game.
QuoteAdditional C-elves only clan/tribes (outside player made ones) are not good for the game.
I disagree in principle, but agree that it could be very easy to implement poorly.
Quote from: Dresan on September 05, 2016, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 05, 2016, 11:57:19 AM
Whew, that was close. Thanks Synth, totally cured me of my desire to make that elf.
diluting player resources from other stable clans
lol
how um...
how does having a c-elf tribe dilute player resources from house salarr or kadius or borsail or fale or oash...
if none of them allow c-elves?
Quote from: Reiloth on September 05, 2016, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on September 05, 2016, 01:26:49 PM
I'm still overwhelmingly curious when westside became not-elf only.
Several elves of mine were involved in the guild early on, and several leaders of the guild have also been elves.
I dunno, I think it was a player mentality shift. I also remember when it was just 'The Labyrinth', and elves and humans were on both sides of the map. But I guess it was just an organic thing over time, and the Jaxa Pah certainly made it more solidified.
It never did, it's apocrypha.
Quote from: Case on September 05, 2016, 05:37:22 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 05, 2016, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on September 05, 2016, 01:26:49 PM
I'm still overwhelmingly curious when westside became not-elf only.
Several elves of mine were involved in the guild early on, and several leaders of the guild have also been elves.
I dunno, I think it was a player mentality shift. I also remember when it was just 'The Labyrinth', and elves and humans were on both sides of the map. But I guess it was just an organic thing over time, and the Jaxa Pah certainly made it more solidified.
It never did, it's apocrypha.
Yeah...It's sort of like a few people decided that's the way it was, and it caught on I guess. I remember it becoming more of a 'thing' around 2006-08, but before that it was sort of less territorial by race, more territorial by gang/affiliation.
Quote from: Dresan on September 05, 2016, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 05, 2016, 11:57:19 AM
Whew, that was close. Thanks Synth, totally cured me of my desire to make that elf.
While i know the staff have stated they had a c-elf tribe idea in mind, but I too am glad nothing has come out of it. It would be diluting player resources from other stable clans for what is sadly a niche race at the moment.
Additional C-elves only clan/tribes (outside player made ones) are not good for the game.
I disagree entirely.
Personally, I'd be ok not having run ability. Just remove agorophobia from their mindsets.
Jaxa pah is almost exactly how it was described earlier in the thread. You've got the killers and the dealers. Their problem is that they are elves. Therefore recruitment is broken and difficult.
I think Synthesis is spot on. It can be quite difficult to get anywhere as a c-elf for all of those reasons. You sort of have to roll the dice and hope for a particular social climate in the area of your choosing. Barring that, you have to break your city elf's comfort zone and explore other potential spots.
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Quote from: Molten Heart on September 06, 2016, 02:16:01 PM
It'd be easier to be an elf if there were an elven district or borough where elves lived. The rinth could serve as this but, currently, the rinth is treated as a place only criminals go.
An elf tribe (NPCs) is a recent addition to Southside, and they have their own building / hangout, and while criminals do like to hang out in the rinth, nothing in the help file suggests that 'only criminals' live in the rinth -- at least on my reading of it.
Re: recruitment (mentioned in the previous post): A city elf clan wouldn't recruit any more than a desert elf clan does. That's part of what makes a city elf tribe so interesting to RP and interact with -- whereas lonefoot city elves will (and must) cultivate friends where and however they can, the tribed city elf (like the tribed desert elf) doesn't care about friends, at least not to such an extent -- and this is true even if the 'tribe' is virtual. If the tribe is coded, then recruitment would happen -- just as with desert elves -- from new PCs out of chargen. (I'm not sure, but there are certain situations where a desert elf tribe might 'recruit' a PC in-game, but these are very rare, at least in the one clan I'm familiar with that does so.)
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Quote from: evilcabbage on September 05, 2016, 04:45:27 PM
how um...
how does having a c-elf tribe dilute player resources from house salarr or kadius or borsail or fale or oash...
if none of them allow c-elves?
But Byn and Kurac do allow elves, and humans and everything in between. These are actual clans, that offer different jobs and allow multiple roles to join, not like noble houses which consist of a noble and an aide or two. Leaving aside that this c-elf clan would need people to specifically roll elves, want to join this c-elf only clan as opposed to another(again kurac and byn), we would have yet another competing clan for the same limtied playerbase. How fun is it to have one leader and one or two people if you are lucky in a clan? Its the same reason I think Salarr/Kadius should merge into one clan, they practically offer the same hunter/crafter roles in the city.
I'm not really going to argue this point very hard, mostly because I think its moot. I have yet to see one implemented well and its not all the staff's fault, its the playerbase that usually creates the conditions to make the staff close it down.
Quote from: Dresan on September 07, 2016, 11:28:48 PM
But Byn and Kurac do allow elves, and humans and everything in between. These are actual clans, that offer different jobs and allow multiple roles to join, not like noble houses which consist of a noble and an aide or two. Leaving aside that this c-elf clan would need people to specifically roll elves, want to join this c-elf only clan as opposed to another that allows a greater variety of roles already, we would have yet another competing clan for the same limtied playerbase. How fun is it to have one leader and one or two people if you are lucky in a clan? Its the same reason I think Salarr/Kadius should merge into one clan, they practically offer the same hunter/crafter roles in the city.
I'm not really going to argue this point very hard, mostly because I think its moot. I have yet to see one implemented well and its not all the staff's fault, its the playerbase that usually creates the conditions to make the staff close it down.
What if they did merge? There is now like ten players having to hope to find something else to become.
Honestly if you're going to advocate not making a celf tribe on the grounds of cutting down player spread so more positions get filled, and then talk about other groups should just get removed too, maybe you need to stop and think about the real player spread. It would be totally detrimental.
Regarding the whole dilution of players.
Within the last 12 months I've played a relatively public role in Allanak, before that, I had a pretty long lived tribal, after the public role, I played a recluse, but present role in the rinth. After that ended, instead of choosing to recreate in an area that I've already been to recently, I've chosen to .... take a break for a month, so my experiences with the arena would wane a little bit.
My point is that if you remove too many options and areas, and clans, in order to bring the playerbase together, you're running the risk of players choosing not to play for awhile, instead of jumping into some area they've been in recently already.
Quote from: Dar on September 07, 2016, 11:50:54 PM
Regarding the whole dilution of players.
Within the last 12 months I've played a relatively public role in Allanak, before that, I had a pretty long lived tribal, after the public role, I played a recluse, but present role in the rinth. After that ended, instead of choosing to recreate in an area that I've already been to recently, I've chosen to .... take a break for a month, so my experiences with the arena would wane a little bit.
My point is that if you remove too many options and areas, and clans, in order to bring the playerbase together, you're running the risk of players choosing not to play for awhile, instead of jumping into some area they've been in recently already.
+1
At the very least, c-elves should be made more viable/less fustrating in the clans they can currently join, before opening additional tribe/clans just for them.
Again I don't see people complaining half-elves don't have enough clans to join.
Because half-elves are extremely useful. They are useful to 'everyone'. The breeds are the ones that go loner style into far reaches and greb/hunt/procure rare shit non-stop, even at the price of many many rl hours of grinding, just to come back to the city and be acknowledged by others. Tell me you have not encountered flak from everyone and their momma for picking at a breed, just because this particular breed is grebbing diamonds for people.
None of that. NONE OF THAT. NOOOOOOOOOOOONE OF THAT is available to Celves.
Generally speaking, amidst all avenues and things that people can be useful to other people, Celves only real main strength is awesomeness of roleplay. That's all. They are gimped in all the other social and coded ways. Unless you wanna hire someone to steal some shit and even then it's rarely used, mainly because not every Celf is an "expert" at theft.
Please dont misunderstand. I like Celves how they are? I'm totally against giving them delf run, or whatever. Although that whole night vision (not infravision, but night vision) is pretty cool idea.
half-elves can ride.
You can\t talk about player dilution when Tuluk was closed.
all c-elves need is a clan / tribe that is open in an area that makes sense for the c-elf mindset and gameworld. The Rinth is an easy place / alraedy a place where it's worked.
I like the difficulty of c-elves. I like how narrow their options are based around their whole mindset / doc structure. It works.
C-elves have always been hardmode, which isn't a bad thing. It would just be helpful if they had an open tribe.
If you open other houses to c-elves, you risk losing the structured, racial hate for them, which does iso-them but also makes them super cool in the sense that they are among themselves when it comes to politics, self-interest.
Again there are two clans already open to them. Byn, Kurac (and maybe dust runners in redstorm?). Which are in different locations which elves can join, same as half elves.
I don't think an additional c-elf only clan is going to help them and if other c-elves clans had 'worked' then they wouldn't be closed right now. Also I have yet to hear ideas how this c-elf clan will work/do, and intergrate c-elves into society while adding to the roleplay experience of the entire game like a clan like the byn or kurac currently do. What would a c-elf only clan offer that is different from the Guild? How would it interact with the Guild thats already in the rinth?
Honestly I think elves should be able to join the Guild (like they used to in the past) and we could call it a day here. C-elves would have a clan they can join in almost every location on top of players creating their own tribe/clans.
And guess what, they would still be fustrating to play compared to the other races.
oddly enough... i don't really find c-elves frustrating to play. HG's, Dwarves and Breeds, yes. Elves? Not @ all. Suppose I'm the minority though.
A kind of summary post:
This thread has been useful. From what I can gather from posts up above, there are two main views being put forward (perhaps mutually exclusive, perhaps jointly exhaustive).
1. Make City Elves More 'Useful'. The idea here is to make city elves more useful --- improve running, night vision, relaxing the racism documentation, relaxing the thievery constraint, let them ride things, etc. Implicit, I imagine, is the concern that, although city elves can join certain clans (Kurac, T'zai Byn, Dust Runners, Guild), city elves as a race are not very useful to those clans, as compared to dwarves, half-giants, and breeds, both because of their 'stats' and also because of aspects of their docs that make elves not play well with other races (thievery, tribal pride, no-riding). If we can 'fix' this, then perhaps city elves will be a perfectly fun option to play.
2. Give City Elves a Coded Tribe. The idea here is to open up a certain aspect of roleplay -- tribal roleplay -- to city elves. You could do this and not change city elves intrinsically -- keep the racism, keep the nerfed running, the thievery bent, etc. (There's also a sub-worry about how to fit a city elf tribe into the existing structures, especially with respect to the rinth and the Guild, so as to make it both realistic and to balance gameplay, granted the 'unbreakable loyalty' of a city elf to his or her tribe.) If we can come up with a thoughtful bit of documentation, then perhaps city elves, while still isolated from traditional 'clanlife', will be an interesting alternative, much as desert elves are.
I'm still inclined towards #2. I view the tribal mindset of an elf as one of the most interesting things to play out, and, while there are exceptions to this, on my reading of the 'pride and tribe' aspect of an elf (in general), I wouldn't think very many city elves from a tribe would be inclined to join (roundear ruled) institutions such as the Byn, Kurac, etc. (Of course, desert elves have joined Kurac in the past, at least according to the lore, and there are elves in the Byn, although it isn't clear to me what the history there might be.) I admit that city elves will still be an isolated role, much like desert elves, and even more so, since, as well, city elves wouldn't really enjoy leaving the city on missions with, say, the Byn or the Kurac.
Quote from: nauta on September 08, 2016, 01:05:27 PM
Of course, desert elves have joined Kurac in the past, at least according to the lore, and there are elves in the Byn, although it isn't clear to me what the history there might be.
Desert Elves worked with Kurac. Not sure there is documented existence of Desert Elves being part of Kurac.
As for Elves in the Byn - I think it's within' the realm of current documentation that cElves might adopt the Byn as their tribe, with the rest test of Loyalty for their Sergeant / Lieutenant whatever level of unit they decided to consider their tribe. At the bare-minimum, these shitcloaks are willing to give me all the food and water I can take for three small... how is that not a good deal? Oh and I can run and hide inside the Compound walls.
I would like to see more tribes of elves, though, in the City. There have been a few in the last couple years which is pomising and I think general # of PC Elves is currently on the rise, which is also promising.
I think when playing an elf, the tribe thing can be as Whitt says, whatever clan you join. It does make sense to me at the very least.
Quote from: Hauwke on September 08, 2016, 09:06:01 PM
I think when playing an elf, the tribe thing can be as Whitt says, whatever clan you join. It does make sense to me at the very least.
Trick is finding a clan that can live up to the tests to earn the right to be considered your tribe.
Idea, give City elves City run.
Quote from: 650Booger on September 08, 2016, 10:06:51 PM
Idea, give City elves City run.
City elves in the city often don't pay movement costs and already have the fastest movement speed in the game (or immediately close to it).
Yeah they kinda have city run. But there's quite a few roads/places that don't give you the benefit.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 09, 2016, 02:04:04 AM
Yeah they kinda have city run. But there's quite a few roads/places that don't give you the benefit.
The benefit is everywhere.
Basically, you move so fast while running that nothing but another elf or someone who is using magick can shadow you (okay, I think half-giants might technically run faster, but I seriously doubt there are any half-giant assassins out there that are going to pass consecutive shadow checks while running). This is a massive defense against getting PK'ed if you have safe spots to run to.
I was talking specifically about the no stamina drain.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 09, 2016, 04:22:14 AM
I was talking specifically about the no stamina drain.
Yeah, but that's not the only benefit.
Anyway, even in city rooms where c-elves lose stamina, they lose a point or two less than other races, so it's still a benefit.
Quote from: Synthesis on September 09, 2016, 04:35:34 AM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 09, 2016, 04:22:14 AM
I was talking specifically about the no stamina drain.
Yeah, but that's not the only benefit.
Anyway, even in city rooms where c-elves lose stamina, they lose a point or two less than other races, so it's still a benefit.
Got bored and looked into this one day. Anywhere were there's large crowds you can run without penalty (bazaar, caravan's), for places like alleys and smaller roads you get penalised 1-2 stamina. That's kind of neat, but when you have such low base stamina running everywhere as a city elf still leaves you drained in short order.
Humans lose 1 stam in most city streets while running. Caravans/stonecarvers/theyaks and whatnot and the bazaar being among them. Other streets cost 3 (Templars way, Tradesmans street) and a few transitions cost 2. Some random spots cost nothing at all.
I'm not _great_ with elves, but I can play a mean dwarf.
Also, I'm loving that Templars aren't really doing Gaj runs anymore. It helps elves out, who already have a pretty efficient and ruthless Arm on their tail generally speaking.
I mean, sure, you can hide in the Byn compound the whole year, but you need a break from the other shitcloaks sometimes.
I just... sometimes I wish I could get into the whole Steal Stuff Excellently thing the same way I can get into the way Only Think of Your Goals thing. Maybe I should just accept that I'm better at playing one race over another. I've never tried a half-giant. I don't think I could take that level of wisdom.
I've noticed that as different humans with vastly different agilities and sometimes with heavy loads, stamina drains differently for different parts of the city. I don't think running in the city is a city elf thing. I think its a general stamina thing, and that city elves simply have the coding to make their equation zero for portions of the city.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 09, 2016, 06:44:58 AM
Humans lose 1 stam in certain city streets while running. Caravans/stonecarvers/theyaks and whatnot and the bazaar being among them. Other streets cost 3 and a few cost 2. Some random spots cost nothing at all.
Yeah, this.
Quote from: Dresan on September 08, 2016, 08:33:27 AM
I don't think an additional c-elf only clan is going to help them and if other c-elves clans had 'worked' then they wouldn't be closed right now.
I'm interested to know what staff's reply to this would be.
The running within Allanak proper is neat and all, but it doesn't really save you from instant soldier subdue, which is your main problem if you're ever running away from something. This is made worse by the 'rinth having a death squad of a few half-giants guarding its entrance. How that doesn't devolve into three stooge level stupidity is beyond me.
I read a few pages back and mostly there seems to be a call for a c-elf rinth clan. Which is good and all, but I think there could be a c-elf southside clan to start with. Get people used to the idea of elves with something resembling power and sway in the daily lives of commoners who need a hit or want someone mugged or killed. Also, when I played elves, a few people would just automatically assume I was rinthi (even though I never played anything but southside) before I opened my mouth. That was a bit jarring, and could be cleared up with a real southside presence of some sort.
I keep thinking of things I'd like to share in this thread. Then I realize my position keeps changing.
I guess honestly I can't think of an answer that I'm confident enough in to stick with, I keep finding problems with every potential solution.
I always found running in the cities to be stupid. Try to go to downtown of whatever city you're in and run. It doesnt matter if you get tired, or not, you'll be ping ponging from one person of the crowd to another. I'd much prefer Celves be able to parkour the rooftops :) Ie ... cliiiiiimb.
Quote from: Patuk on September 09, 2016, 06:59:37 AM
This is made worse by the 'rinth having a death squad of a few half-giants guarding its entrance. How that doesn't devolve into three stooge level stupidity is beyond me.
I thought that was deemed a bug, and they were removed? Did they get replaced at some point?
Quote from: Dar on September 09, 2016, 09:41:31 AM
I always found running in the cities to be stupid. Try to go to downtown of whatever city you're in and run. It doesnt matter if you get tired, or not, you'll be ping ponging from one person of the crowd to another. I'd much prefer Celves be able to parkour the rooftops :) Ie ... cliiiiiimb.
We're riding giant bugs around slaying shelled beasts with glass swords and fireballs, and this dude is over here worrying about how realistic it is to run in a crowd.
Quote from: Narf on September 09, 2016, 11:52:20 AM
Quote from: Patuk on September 09, 2016, 06:59:37 AM
This is made worse by the 'rinth having a death squad of a few half-giants guarding its entrance. How that doesn't devolve into three stooge level stupidity is beyond me.
I thought that was deemed a bug, and they were removed? Did they get replaced at some point?
I haven't seen any in the past few days.
ONCE IN AWHILE soldiers will gang up on, and chase crim-coded criminals to the entry(ies) of the rinth. Then, they'll stop since they're out of their zone. They stay there until/unless they have some reason to move (such as - chasing a criminal from the spot they're stuck in, to somewhere NOT in the rinth), or until game reset. So sometimes you'll see a few HG soldiers stuck at the entry. But it's only because someone got chased there. They don't normally hang out there.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 09, 2016, 12:17:36 PM
Quote from: Narf on September 09, 2016, 11:52:20 AM
Quote from: Patuk on September 09, 2016, 06:59:37 AM
This is made worse by the 'rinth having a death squad of a few half-giants guarding its entrance. How that doesn't devolve into three stooge level stupidity is beyond me.
I thought that was deemed a bug, and they were removed? Did they get replaced at some point?
I haven't seen any in the past few days.
ONCE IN AWHILE soldiers will gang up on, and chase crim-coded criminals to the entry(ies) of the rinth. Then, they'll stop since they're out of their zone. They stay there until/unless they have some reason to move (such as - chasing a criminal from the spot they're stuck in, to somewhere NOT in the rinth), or until game reset. So sometimes you'll see a few HG soldiers stuck at the entry. But it's only because someone got chased there. They don't normally hang out there.
Ooh, this is a good point. I went and checked; no half-giants over there, now. Awesome.
Still.. This
does mean that one person running to the 'rinth will make going there for anyone who's wanted a deathtrap. Has anyone ever tried wishing up for them to move away?
Quote from: Narf on September 09, 2016, 11:52:20 AM
Quote from: Patuk on September 09, 2016, 06:59:37 AM
This is made worse by the 'rinth having a death squad of a few half-giants guarding its entrance. How that doesn't devolve into three stooge level stupidity is beyond me.
I thought that was deemed a bug, and they were removed? Did they get replaced at some point?
The fact there were about 12 of them was deemed a bug. There is supposed to be 3. Which is still a deathsquad.
I mean, one half-giant is a death squad. I don't know about the NPCs, but I've seen PC half-giants do terrifying things.
Quote from: Delirium on September 09, 2016, 01:12:00 PM
I mean, one half-giant is a death squad. I don't know about the NPCs, but I've seen PC half-giants do terrifying things.
Going off on a tangent, but NPC half giant soldiers should be confined strictly to the main city gates, and the entrance to the noble's quarter. They suck the fun out of crime, because once you're wanted, they basically become instakill rooms.
Anyway I've nothing more to contribute to the actual topic so I'll leave it at that
Quote from: Synthesis on September 09, 2016, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: Dar on September 09, 2016, 09:41:31 AM
I always found running in the cities to be stupid. Try to go to downtown of whatever city you're in and run. It doesnt matter if you get tired, or not, you'll be ping ponging from one person of the crowd to another. I'd much prefer Celves be able to parkour the rooftops :) Ie ... cliiiiiimb.
We're riding giant bugs around slaying shelled beasts with glass swords and fireballs, and this dude is over here worrying about how realistic it is to run in a crowd.
Yes, I am worried about that. I'm also worried about people entering shops mounted, or racing full speed through the crowds on an inix without really spending a moment to think how exactly that would look like. This isn't about realism versus fantasy. It's about acknowledging virtual aspects of every day zalanthan life.
Returning to the topic.
What do you mean insta kill rooms? I mean they're trying to arrest you. If you dont resist, they dont kill you.
None of them have scan either, so the moment you have a passable amount of sneak/hide, the whole concept of crime code becomes ... something a lot less scary. Admittedly if you're playing a merchant, or warrior celf, you wont have sneak/hide, but ... well. Umh. You really should.
Only reason why I dont think giving sneak/hide to celves as a racial skill to be a good idea, is because most elves get it from their main subguild anyway. Simply due to the nature of their shifty dishonest selves.
Quote from: Dar on September 10, 2016, 04:42:37 PM
What do you mean insta kill rooms? I mean they're trying to arrest you. If you dont resist, they dont kill you.
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Michael-Scott-angry-stare-at-toby.gif)
The thing about that--- if you're an independent human and you get caught stealing, and you get sent to jail, and god forbid -pcs- come to see you, they're not going to let you off easy. They'll terrify you, maybe cut off a finger, or threaten to do so if you get caught again (something career criminals will then have to worry about: my whole hand got threatened once) they'll try to way Salaari or Kadian people if you stole from those shops, they'll beat you up. They're not disinterested career politicians looking to get power in a dictatorship, they're thugs looking for people to track and spy on and beat up in jails so that they don't commit crimes again. The total powerlessness of most people sent to jail solidifies this relationship. The only reason witches get off for accidentally casting a harmful weave on themselves is because the player behind the keyboard did not actually want to cause harm and the Templars know that and are aware they may be killing off a special app for an OOC mistake.
Now what if you were an elf instead?
Even expert pickpockets will occasionally fail, especially if they rely on stealing as their sole source of income, which some elves will do.
So you know--- an elf who gets sent to jail is an elf who will probably either die in the cell or get killed a few days later just to give the Arm's newest assassin some work. Its just a damn elf, no one will miss it. What tribe? Elves don't have -real- tribes that can come after the assassin and make them disappear. Private Amos's spice addiction isn't going to come out of the closet as a nasty rumor because his tribe supplied him.
That is my take on it, anyway. I could be wrong, and I don't have more than maybe five short-lived characters' experience playing a criminal.
The docs also suggest that if you are a non-citizen, you will be dealt with far more unforgivingly.
Don't linger at the gates when they let you go, either. The soldiers could come up and take your money.
Quote from: Beethoven on September 10, 2016, 10:24:06 PM
The docs also suggest that if you are a non-citizen, you will be dealt with far more unforgivingly.
Well, technically, celves are all citizens just fine. Despite that, I'll take my chances as a jailed tribal/stormer over even a southside celf anyday.
I'm not arguing about c-elves being citizens. I'm just suggesting a possible reason why some people might get randomly ganked and other people might get taken to jail.
I've never run into an issue with being murdered by crim-code, so am mostly on the side of "Don't resist". In fact I've made escapes before that were kind of silly even after resisting. But apparently you can still be murdered in certain situations(unless people are just complaining about something that happened years ago?), and I think those situations should be made known.
Crimcode is very binary. There's too many giants, Templars and soldiers. I would be cool with just being beat down and knocked out in the street over risking the eye of the templarate at times, as outing yourself as a sneak can be very bad for your character.
It's not the NPCs you should be scared of. Barring the interplay between nosave subdue and nosave arrest occasionally being stupid, the NPCs geeeeenerally won't kill you, though even there accidents happen. It's the PC soldiers you'll end up dealing with that are scary.
Quote from: Beethoven on September 11, 2016, 07:46:48 AM
I'm not arguing about c-elves being citizens. I'm just suggesting a possible reason why some people might get randomly ganked and other people might get taken to jail.
I'm talking about being ganked by halfgiant soldiers. The issue is that against normal human soldiers you stand a fighting chance if you do want to resist arrest, but with a load of half giants that simply is not an option. It limits crime roleplay because it means a load of ubermobs can get sicced on you at a moment's notice and the only choice you have is to surrender. Sure, about surrendering to overwhelming odds (several soldiers surround you), but it's not fair to have something so vastly overpowered confront you, because no matter what level you're at it's an absolutely enormous threat. As well as the fact that giants, which as per the docs are meant to be a scarce resource are almost as abundant as normal human soldiers.