Let's talk about Backstab.
In a world where it's supposed to give an Assassin the edge over a warrior or ranger in combat (A high-powered opening move from stealth), this skill really and truly falls short, for a few reasons.
Without the strength to backup a backstab, or a good weapon, you are only going to rarely OHK someone with decent health. And when I say rarely, I mean rarely. Now, that being said, your follow up blows (if they connect) will more often than not finish the job, or a second round of combat. However, a few more things.
*Backstab starts incredibly low, and is difficult to train without twinking it or the appearance of twinking it, as you must backstab someone with the intent to kill to gain a 'fail' in order to proceed.
*Backstab, even up into journeyman and advanced, will yield failures that can mean the difference between life and death.
*If you fail a backstab, it has one of the longest 'after' delays in the game. So you cannot flee, or do anything, until the after delay is achieved.
It's a shame that most people don't even entertain using backstab, because it can be such a detriment to the would-be-assassin, that it's much safer to get weapons with poison on them and just 'kill' the target.
In a brainstorming, constructive fashion: How could we improve the backstab skill?
*It should start at Apprentice, or a level reasonable enough to yield success 1/10 times, rather than 1/20 to start.
*The after delay should be decreased, or a softer before and after delay should be introduced.
*More levels of 'success' should be mixed in with the levels of failure. There are currently many 'you fucked up' levels to the skill, but fewer 'you succeed, but not well'. As an opening move, if you are attacking from complete stealth, there should be a bonus that yields moderate success most of the time.
*Allowing for a few different styles of backstab. Backstab disable, backstab bleed, backstab kill. If successful, backstab disable would prevent the person from moving from the room for a period of 1 IG Hour (Ten Minutes). If successful, backstab bleed would do damage over time, but not as much damage at the forefront. Backstab kill would be aiming to do the most damage up front, and have a higher chance of failure.
It isn't all the time you want to murder the fuck out of someone with a sneak attack, which can be misleading with a skill titled 'Backstab'. Considering the skill is now more opened up to different sub guilds, it might be interesting to set apart the 'Assassin Backstab' from others, achieving a higher level of mastery and talents within the skill if you are a true assassin, rather than making it completely equal between a Slipknife and an Assassin.
Assassin is one of my favorite classes in ArmageddonMUD, but one that requires extreme patience and skill to train to their fullest potential, due to the drawbacks of skills like Backstab. What are your thoughts?
This is an insanely cool idea.
I'd be fine with it if you were only allowed access to these sweet abilities with Assassin as your main guild.
i think the drawbacks are why it should be the way it is.
it is not meant to just be your one-hit kill button, i tis meant to be a sequence of attacks (in my opinion) where your first blow is a brutal strike to cripple an opponent, and the followup hopefully ends it. very rarely does one strike kill somebody, and the fact that an assassin gets an attack with the potential to do 70-80 hp worth of damage on the first strike? that's pretty powerful stuff.
a warrior can't do that much damage unless he has insanely high strength, or he's a dwarf. or a half giant. or a mul. and even then, it's not a guarantee.
Quote from: evilcabbage on August 21, 2016, 10:48:04 PM
i think the drawbacks are why it should be the way it is.
it is not meant to just be your one-hit kill button, i tis meant to be a sequence of attacks (in my opinion) where your first blow is a brutal strike to cripple an opponent, and the followup hopefully ends it. very rarely does one strike kill somebody, and the fact that an assassin gets an attack with the potential to do 70-80 hp worth of damage on the first strike? that's pretty powerful stuff.
a warrior can't do that much damage unless he has insanely high strength, or he's a dwarf. or a half giant. or a mul. and even then, it's not a guarantee.
Yeah, but I mean, we're talking 'master level skill'. Even at 'master', Backstab isn't a foolproof way to kill or even seriously harm someone. A Warrior at master, facing that Assassin, will surely demolish him/her in under 5 seconds of open combat. So you could argue, the Assassin's strength is attacking from Stealth and setting up an attack to their benefit. A Warrior's benefit is in open combat with a visible opponent. A Ranger's benefit is from a distance with a bow, or against animals. And so on.
As it stands, I don't think Assassins are all that scary without a plethora of other items at their disposal, the least of which is often Backstab.
the assassin has backstab, the follow-up, poison if he's any good, probably knocked the opponent around with a thrown (poisoned) knife from a distance before he even moved in, so...
what more do you really need to kill someone? a warrior has to actually, you know, walk up to you and go "sir please could you stand still a moment so i can type bash <your name> please? i would please very much please like to please bash you please so you cannot escape. please."
backstab seemed pretty strong the last time I was backstabbed
(https://m.popkey.co/700c95/6m001_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-web&p=starbucks&i=frappuccino-brands&l=search&f=.gif)
Due to my eternal level of tilt, I'd pass on improvements. I prefer the insta-kill levels for an ability be difficult to achieve on a 0 karma class, and that such a move maintain its risk.
If it's any consolation, I do sorta like the variants.
oh, i didn't even comment.
i like the variations too, especially "backstab disable".
and maybe backstab disable offers a moderate delay (maybe ten seconds) where the other person can't use any special commands (i.e. kick bash disarm), but you sacrifice a huge damage push for that.
so if the guy is way better than you in combat, you're boned, but if he's about your skill level, you may have just earned yourself a victory that you wouldn't have otherwise.
Quote from: TheWanderer on August 21, 2016, 10:53:07 PM
backstab seemed pretty strong the last time I was backstabbed
(https://m.popkey.co/700c95/6m001_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-web&p=starbucks&i=frappuccino-brands&l=search&f=.gif)
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Backstab has it's niche. As does throw. I've played plenty of murders/hitmen in my time and I do love the assassin guild. HOWEVER....
The after delay on backstab/throw made these skills I'd regularly avoid using whenever it became time to do the M in the MCB dance. With Archery, you can fling arrows fairly quickly and safely.. with throw, you're very close to your target, stuck with only a weapon in your offhand and standing their like a dumbass for what to me feels like an eternity after you throw your deadly weapon (also, you can't throw from a climb room! WTF). With backstab, unless certain parameters are met, there's a good chance you miss outright (even at high levels) and even then you're stuck there for 20 seconds to see if the victim is wise enough to spam flee or draw weapons to beat your ass. I've pretty famously OHK'd some people, once even publically, so backstab has it's moments. However more often than not I'd use the kill command on my assasins rather than backstab/sap because lamely, it's the safer alternative.
Reiloth definitely has some good ideas!
Backstab is definitely something that has to be used carefully because of its delay, but I think that's fitting with the style of stealth. Stealth is more than just 'I'm invisible until I attack you'; being an assassin requires that you hunt your prey, more than relying on fighting. If you ever played the 'Mercenary vs Spy' multiplayer in splinter cell, it's very much like that dynamic. Assassins manipulate situations to put something that can easily kill them into the circumstances that they win in. It's not about being on equal footing whenever you want it, it's about having the advantage whenever you work the tools of the trade.
Throw, I find useful enough. But this:
Quote(also, you can't throw from a climb room! WTF)
...was one of my major complaints when it was changed. At the very least, make it a climb check, not impossible. Because that's just weird.
As with most things, I'm not against modification or fleshing out of the skill, but I don't view this as particularly 'broken' right now, especially when there are still plenty of people out there twinking the hell out of it (easily witnessed in certain clans and locations). In my eyes, it's supposed to be a skill that is risky to use, and something that only those who have been through some shit master. As with most classes, I don't think there's any obligation on the game's part for you to actually hit mastery level in it, despite everyone's best attempts to do so (which, ironically, often get them killed).
I love the ideas in the OP. Especially back-stab bleed and disable.
Backstab is shit unless mastered, as every slipknife will be able to tell you. I'd rather engage with bash, which is also shit for pretty much the same reasons, and also takes longer to skill-up, but still is way more worth it than a backstab.
Backstab benefits too much from code-knowledge and not enough from being a high level. When you nail your "master" level backstab and only get 40 hp off of whatever you hit... that is lame, that isn't fun. And it'll probably get you killed.
I don't like the answers that go a bit like this: "Backstab is shit, and that's okay because there's a million ways to make it more useful if you know how and go through the motions." Yeah well slipping someone a poisoned mug of ale while they're drinking at a bar has ZERO failure chance and will be the better way to assassinate someone 100% of the time. I'd much rather get in there all nitty-gritty and shank someone to death. That's cool, that's fun.
It's not broken(and nothing is if you consider it all to be simply part of the games "meta"). It just isn't fun, and it's only useful if you want to forgo the 100 other options that are more guaranteed. Like, hiring a warrior to do the job. Or paying a templar to giant-smash that mofo.
I never even bother with it, I also rarely PK, but I feel that any time backstab is an option, sap is a better one, and has the easiest setup ever.
A foreign presence has contacted your mind.
the generic man sends "Hey, this that Amos I keep hearing about at the Gaj?"
You think: This guys an idiot, that's not even my name.
You contact the generic man.
The world goes black as your eyes roll back into your head.
Backstab's damage is only partially connected to the backstab skill.
I'm almost certain that your piercing weapon skill and your base offense/defense skill factor into it, and those take much, much, much, much, much longer to train.
Training backstab is simple...just go backstab some hapless critters. There are even a ton of them all over the city now, and you won't get crim-flagged. It won't matter if your backstab is at (master), though, because your base O and piercing weapons will still be garbage as fuck, and you'll be lucky to do 30hp on a good roll, unless you're getting an incredible strength bonus.
Basically I think backstab works like a damage multiplier (like any other D&D critical strike skill). If your base damage sucks ass, then it doesn't matter if you land the modifier or not. I imagine the code rolls a regular attack, then multiplies the damage. So if you backstab someone, and your combat roll hits to the foot for 5hp, it doesn't matter if you get a 2x critical strike multiplier, because your base damage is trash. If your combat roll hits to the neck for 35hp, that 2x critical strike is much more significant.
Of course, this means that even as a master assassin, you can sometimes backstab people to the foot for 15 total damage. It happens. As your other combat skills increase though, it becomes much more likely that you'll hit to the head, neck, or wrist, and get both the hit-location and critical-strike damage modifiers.
This is just idle speculation based on the fact that I once mastered backstab in 24 hours played, and the damage from successful backstabs varied WILDLY.
I do like the idea of backstab variants.
How to fix the skill though, codedly:
When you attack someone from stealth, you get a bonus according to your backstab skill. Not even a special command.
If there are balance concerns with this, further nerf the starting defense of Assassins and subguilds that get backstab.
It doesn't really make much sense that backstab should be a special command with a lengthy delay. All you're doing is taking knowledge of anatomy and targeting vital spots when you attack an enemy. If you're good at doing this, it doesn't take more time than a simple attack. It just makes you more accurate.
The skill isn't broken.
It's specifically designed so that (master) backstab will not give you OHK status, because (master) backstab is incredibly easy to achieve. (advanced) piercing weapons...not so much. Even if you get it bumped to (journeyman) out of chargen, you're facing at least a 5-day grind to advanced. Probably much longer than that (or outright unachievable) if you don't know how to skill up properly.
It isn't hard to train or particularly powerful. Due to the delay you have a window of extreme vunerability unlike archery or throw. But really now, it isn't broken in any sense of the word.
I 100% agree that it should start at apprentice. There is no reason this shouldn't be a thing.
Assassins are a far weaker class in many ways to a Ranger or warrior but they are still my fave (although I play a mix of all non-merchant,) They are definately the fastest to become dangerous to much more experienced pcs, as they should be.
If I could buff assassin I would let them branch archery from throwing up to low advanced for long ranged assassination and to pass as hunters/soldiers superficially, as well as increase their climb to advanced.
Anyone who thinks assassins need a nerf, however, doesn't play assassins.
It's pretty silly that plain "kill" is usually preferable to backstab. Why is "I want to critically strike my target from stealth" such a fraught decision? That tells me the implementation could use some work.
Backstab is one of those things that is the way it is because some person, years and years ago, decided to implement it this way.
45 days on an assassin.
Master Backstab.
Figured out quickly I would be a complete idiot to ever use it to try and actually kill someone.
I wouldn't mind backstab buff but I am against making the use of it more complex.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 22, 2016, 03:54:41 AM
This is just idle speculation based on the fact that I once mastered backstab in 24 hours played, and the damage from successful backstabs varied WILDLY.
I can't help but feel pretty shitty logging in and not running out into the wilderness without a club, spear, knife, and sword to train each of my skills every couple of hours knowing that you're playing this game with me.
That said, I like the idea of backstab options, but I would like to relegate it to only assassin guild, not subguilds.
War spices will help the effectiveness of a backstab and every master assassin worth their salt would be using them, especially if they're relying on backstab to get the job done.
Quote from: Molten Heart on August 22, 2016, 10:50:28 AM
War spices will help the effectiveness of a backstab and every master assassin worth their salt would be using them, especially if they're relying on backstab to get the job done.
Metagame, right there.
Can you imagine if a Ranger couldn't use Archery without spice to boost their stats over the top to do effective damage?
Or if a Warrior needed war spice to fight in combat?
Assassins shouldn't need to 'rely on Backstab to get the job done'. It's an integral skill to the guild, just as bash and slashing weapons are to Warrior, archery is to Ranger, and pick is to Burglar. None of those classes need war spices to effectively use their primary abilities to the fullest extent.
Going off Synth's assessment (which I find to be accurate), lower strength PCs will almost never be effective in their use of Backstab, while higher strength PCs (Muls, Dwarves, High strength Humans) will do much more damage overall, based on strength. Is it where you stab someone, or how hard you stab someone? To me it seems like it should be the former, therefore, more reliance on skill/skill modifiers rather than stat/stat modifiers.
Quote from: Desertman on August 22, 2016, 08:35:41 AM
45 days on an assassin.
Master Backstab.
Figured out quickly I would be a complete idiot to ever use it to try and actually kill someone.
This, right here, is the crux of my argument. Why would a Master Assassin be wary of using their Master Skill? Because the master skill comes with a plethora of issues that make it more of a hinderance than a strength.
I too had a Master Assassin with Master Backstab, who was actually very well trained in combat. She could OHK people who were slightly damage, but not at full health. She had great strength, was a human. Didn't need war spices to use backstab effectively.
However, this plays into Synth's information as well. She had incredibly high off/def and good piercing weapons (Jman, I believe, if not advanced). She had high bonuses against mamallians. This was all because she was in Salarr Expansion Division, training with Vash and Kon almost every RL day, and I had no life and was just playing Arm.
A skill shouldn't require hours of twinking up every detail around it (Offense, Strength Buffs, Piercing Weapons, Piercing vs Mammals, etc.) to be a useful tool to a class that utilizes it as, presumably, its major skill. I can't think of another example of a skill that requires such archaic code knowledge to be effective, perhaps except for Sap, which seems to draw from similar tables.
Quote from: Inks on August 22, 2016, 09:37:59 AM
I wouldn't mind backstab buff but I am against making the use of it more complex.
Can you think of any other game we play that doesn't have an ounce of specialization or nuanced complexity when it comes to skills?
ArmageddonMUD is the only game I can think of that has such binary skills. You have hunt. You hunt. You have slashing weapons, you slash. No fighting styles, no one handed bonuses (only two). The simplicity of ArmageddonMUD's skills can sometimes be a blessing (less to think about), but at the same time, it provides very cookie-cutter PCs when it comes to Days Played. It's an age old argument, but seeing two 50 days+ Warriors of a similar skill set fight each other is about as exciting as watching glaciers shift. You would expect a fight between Master Warriors to be something other than 'kill warrior, kick, bash, disarm, rinse repeat'. But that's what we have at our disposal.
So -- Forgive me for saying that a -little- more complexity when it comes to skills, the ability to choose one path over another for better or for worse, would add immensely to creating differences between long lived PCs, and make these 'Guilds' more akin to advanced subguilds, rather than antiques.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 22, 2016, 04:44:18 AM
The skill isn't broken.
It's specifically designed so that (master) backstab will not give you OHK status, because (master) backstab is incredibly easy to achieve. (advanced) piercing weapons...not so much. Even if you get it bumped to (journeyman) out of chargen, you're facing at least a 5-day grind to advanced. Probably much longer than that (or outright unachievable) if you don't know how to skill up properly.
Yeah, I never said it was broken. I think there's this feeling in the Playerbase where something shouldn't be worked on/improved unless it is broken -- So for someone to suggest to work on an area that could use some fine tuning, it's automatically assumed 'broken', even if the OP didn't state such.
Backstab isn't broken -- It works. However, it could use fine tuning to make it so:
*Apprentice Assassins use it with occasional success, and mostly failure. Damage they do isn't monumental, more of an 'opening move'.
*Jman Assassins use it with occasional success, with less failures. Damage they do isn't monumental, but they begin to learn other methods of using it.
*Advanced Asssasins use it with more success than failure. Damage they do is significant, and they begin to learn other methods of using it.
*Master Assassins use it with mostly success. They almost never fail, but if they do, it's monumentally horrible. They do significant damage, and are incredibly terrifying (as most endgame skillsets are).
As it stands -- Assassins more often than not rely on skills like throw, or poisoning to have effective assassinations. The way assassinations work in this game, a slightly botched attempt will often mean complete failure. So -- With a variable skill like Backstab, you are really rolling the dice in a way that with other skills, you just don't. So why take the extra risk if you don't need to?
That is pretty bogus to me -- An assassin should not only feel comfortable using backstab on a mark, they should be feared for their use of the skill.
Armaddict is correct in stating killing someone with backstab isn't as simple as going into stealth and backstabbing from the shadows, pew pew. It requires a lot of foresight, planning, and execution. But as it stands, it's a skill I don't think most Assassins use in PC PK attempts, unless they are absolutely certain they are capable of a OHK or near OHK.
However, all of this being said, to suggest there are other methods of using backstab (The ideas I mentioned earlier in the thread of disable, bleed, and kill) wouldn't be possible to implement currently, unless Assassins get all of them, and Slipknife/other backstab classes only get one or none.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 22, 2016, 11:37:20 AM
Quote from: Molten Heart on August 22, 2016, 10:50:28 AM
War spices will help the effectiveness of a backstab and every master assassin worth their salt would be using them, especially if they're relying on backstab to get the job done.
Metagame, right there.
Can you imagine if a Ranger couldn't use Archery without spice to boost their stats over the top to do effective damage?
Or if a Warrior needed war spice to fight in combat?
Assassins shouldn't need to 'rely on Backstab to get the job done'. It's an integral skill to the guild, just as bash and slashing weapons are to Warrior, archery is to Ranger, and pick is to Burglar. None of those classes need war spices to effectively use their primary abilities to the fullest extent.
Going off Synth's assessment (which I find to be accurate), lower strength PCs will almost never be effective in their use of Backstab, while higher strength PCs (Muls, Dwarves, High strength Humans) will do much more damage overall, based on strength. Is it where you stab someone, or how hard you stab someone? To me it seems like it should be the former, therefore, more reliance on skill/skill modifiers rather than stat/stat modifiers.
Assassins don't need to rely on backstab, and shouldn't but some will. Now when a professional hitman is planning to take out a mark, they'd be wise to use all resources available to give them an edge, because that's what professionals do. They use not only their skill but also their knowledge and experience to give them an edge. I believe this is why backstab isn't more effective, because killing people is serious business. And Assassins have other skills to kill people with.
What it backstab branched, at master level, a Harry skill? Bleed code already exists in game, but I don't know how it works well enough to suggest assassins get it.
I agree with almost everything said so far, but I do feel that the two main "assassin" skills are kind of "either you do all your damage upfront or you're straight up going to die".
I'd -really- like if "Harry" was a ranged skill for assassins, that comes off throw instead, and on fail is just a straight up loud miss. But on success, lowers the targets ability to walk similar to intoxication. They can try to run, but every so often they're going to fall, lag for a second, and need to get back up. Only because if you make it off backstab, its more of a melee thing, like a Hamstring but its still opening you up to that "If they turn around and beat on your ass you're dead" factor.
Backstab itself is only useful if stalking the RIGHT targets, hitting at the RIGHT time, having intimate code knowledge of the RIGHT weapons, and even still being somewhat lucky. It shouldn't be OHK but the lag on a backstab attempt is so long that its a death sentence. I don't know how to make that better, and havn't seen ityet.
I also believe that there should be some way to prevent folk from backstab - disengaging rinse repeat multiple times over during combat with multiple people, or being able to backstab someone who's mounted if you're on foot.
I pretty much always combined backstab with roleplayed betrayal, because OHKing someone in the streets was often impractical - but luring them into making themselves vulnerable or tossing back a poisoned drink wasn't. While I appreciate the fact that backstab works best in combination with heavy roleplay, sometimes you just want to be able to shank a motherfucker in a back alley.
Both situations are realistic and appropriate to the gameworld.
Quote from: Doublepalli on August 22, 2016, 12:35:16 PM
I also believe that there should be some way to prevent folk from backstab - disengaging rinse repeat multiple times over during combat with multiple people, or being able to backstab someone who's mounted if you're on foot.
IMHO, backstab should only work provided you are hidden.
But, yeah, OP is right: failing a backstab sucks, and poison + throw/kill make it irrelevant, except as a flavor command. (But what great flavor!)
Quote from: Doublepalli on August 22, 2016, 12:35:16 PM
I also believe that there should be some way to prevent folk from backstab - disengaging rinse repeat multiple times over during combat with multiple people, or being able to backstab someone who's mounted if you're on foot.
Quote from: Inks on August 22, 2016, 04:51:53 AM
Anyone who thinks assassins need a nerf, however, doesn't play assassins.
Back to OP, I quite like the idea of a successful backstab having a slow effect. Backstab is super random and sometimes less damaging than a standard attack even at master. It is basically the lucky dip of combat commands.
I don't think OHK should be a realistic expectation, to begin with, just as a matter of paper-rock-scissors game design. There's like what...1 Krathi spell that can do that much damage instantly, and krathis and sorcs have their own set of massive drawbacks to deal with. A well-trained mul or HG with a good weapon and good strength could single-hit for 100+, but again...HGs and muls are karma-restricted. I've seen an extreme badass dwarf warrior with insane strength OHK someone using etwo, and I've OHK'ed a dude who was subdued with a city-elf warrior with only vgood strength, but for zero-karma options, those are scenarios that don't happen often.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect that your 0-karma PC will be able to sneak up on another PC with skills that border on complete invisibility, then instantly kill them with casual disregard for crime code or other types of guards--regardless of how many days played you have.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 22, 2016, 12:51:10 PM
I don't think OHK should be a realistic expectation, to begin with, just as a matter of paper-rock-scissors game design. There's like what...1 Krathi spell that can do that much damage instantly, and krathis and sorcs have their own set of massive drawbacks to deal with. A well-trained mul or HG with a good weapon and good strength could single-hit for 100+, but again...HGs and muls are karma-restricted. I've seen an extreme badass dwarf warrior with insane strength OHK someone using etwo, and I've OHK'ed a dude who was subdued with a city-elf warrior with only vgood strength, but for zero-karma options, those are scenarios that don't happen often.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect that your 0-karma PC will be able to sneak up on another PC with skills that border on complete invisibility, then instantly kill them with casual disregard for crime code or other types of guards--regardless of how many days played you have.
For sure. I only think that should be borderline possible or "in the realm of possibility" at master. However, providing more horizontal options for a skill that is ostensibly advertised to murder people instantly might go a long way to change that perception. I don't think a OHK means backstab is working. I'm more dubious of the delays associated, and the lack of significant bonus if backstabbing from stealth.
I also agree that backstab should only be possible from successful stealth. This prevents the disengage backstab rinse repeat scenario.
Imms did mention in a thread in the last couple of months not to do that. Worth putting on the skillpage though. I prefer it usuable not exclusively from stealth though as you can silent draw daggers while having a casual conversation with someone and stab them. A bit more RP opportunity and really just represents a sudden unseen strike.
It also means you can deliver one liners or a message from your employer as you strike.
Disengage backstab is already player complaint worthy now if used on the same target since the announcement so I doubt too many are using it now. (Also it is less effective than simply continuing to attack the target)
Quote from: Reiloth on August 22, 2016, 01:10:47 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 22, 2016, 12:51:10 PM
I don't think OHK should be a realistic expectation, to begin with, just as a matter of paper-rock-scissors game design. There's like what...1 Krathi spell that can do that much damage instantly, and krathis and sorcs have their own set of massive drawbacks to deal with. A well-trained mul or HG with a good weapon and good strength could single-hit for 100+, but again...HGs and muls are karma-restricted. I've seen an extreme badass dwarf warrior with insane strength OHK someone using etwo, and I've OHK'ed a dude who was subdued with a city-elf warrior with only vgood strength, but for zero-karma options, those are scenarios that don't happen often.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect that your 0-karma PC will be able to sneak up on another PC with skills that border on complete invisibility, then instantly kill them with casual disregard for crime code or other types of guards--regardless of how many days played you have.
For sure. I only think that should be borderline possible or "in the realm of possibility" at master. However, providing more horizontal options for a skill that is ostensibly advertised to murder people instantly might go a long way to change that perception. I don't think a OHK means backstab is working. I'm more dubious of the delays associated, and the lack of significant bonus if backstabbing from stealth.
I also agree that backstab should only be possible from successful stealth. This prevents the disengage backstab rinse repeat scenario.
disengage;backstab is a "horizontal option"
PKing people with an assassin is easily doable, if your assassin is legitimately badass.
Having (master) backstab does not mean you are a legit badass.
Assassins are pretty much fine the way they are. I mean, you can even -start- with parry if you want to, which alleviates a soul-crushing grind. You can start with parry -and- (journeyman) piercing weapons if you want to, which alleviates 2 soul-crushing grinds! Right out of chargen, you can start at a level that previously would've required 10-12 days played while doing little more than slaughtering literally hundreds of mobs.
Synth is on the money.
If anything needs retooling though, I think it's the way strength is the kingmaker for every combat skill. Including backstab.
One of my earliest PCs was a snivelling breed/assassin who would cry a lot and got kicked out of the Byn for being a wimp. This was way before rats were just wandering the streets. In order to twink backstab, he would walk out, on foot, with a shield, and find a scrab and backstab it when it came in. Such newb! Somehow, that's not what killed him, though it probably should have, he'd just, backstab, flee, then report a wandering scrab to the sole Salarri hunter at the time and go back out with her to finish it off.
Other than that, backstab is a skill I've never used. I can see it being situational, and agree it SHOULD be situational and combined with other tools in your arsenal to maximize its effects, but the drawbacks as they stand make this, as others have described, simply a flavor skill. In other games, I preferred stealth/backstab classes, because backstab was as it should be, and what it was was that badass skill that defined the class with the badassest of names. Rarely have I played a game where backstab was a OHK, but it was never nerfed to the degree it is here with delays, difficulty finding excuses to train (now not so hard thanks to rats), and the assertion that it is most definitely an action one undertakes with an intent to kill (which I don't disagree with, but some of the delay times could definitely use some consideration).
I'm not saying it SHOULD be an automatic OHK at master with master piercing weapons and offense and stabbing vs. mammals, I don't think that at all, but it should definitely be scary as fuck and less of a hinderance to use. And what Jingo said, why strength? Why not agility? When you puncture some lungs strength only factors in as far as getting the knife in there and out, and letting the wound do the rest. Everything else is about skill and having accurate hands. You can kill a human being bare handed with very little strength, simply using your own weight as leverage to yank them off their feet and getting the rear strangle-hold right, slamming their neck into the ground at an angle, and if that doesn't work, worming backwards, pulling, and pressuring the neck. Nevermind it only takes, what, eight pounds of pressure to snap a neck? Strength really doesn't factor all that much into it, just like even fighting well, I've seen big guys punch miserably, I've been in fights with big guys who punch miserably, no amount of "beef" can make up for accuracy, skills, and incorporating more muscle groups than beef mcbeefton.
EDIT: If anything could use a cooldown, it would be backstabbing a target that's already been backstabbed recently, as in "They seem to wary to sneak up on right now", an easy fix would be to tie the backstab skill cooldown on a specific target by simply making a PC with fight lag not be backstabbable, but that seems too easy to game and may be more of a nerf to the backstab skill than anything else.
I don't see disengage backstab as horizontal. It's borderline twinky.
A cool down seems like a realistic compromise.
I think the code savvy understand work around or ways to make backstab effective. I would challenge anyone to describe another skill in the game that requires that level of esoteric knowledge. Magick is way more simple than the complex skill that is backstab.
I've never actually used backstab on the assassins I've played. It's a pretty binary and anti-fun skill. Even when it "works" it usually doesn't offer any opportunity for death RP - just an instant mantis head.
I disagree that it becomes less useful for characters with low strength.
As a player of elves, I feel the ability to knock off 40-60hp at once is pretty stellar for something that usually only hits for <10 hp per hit, even when far more skilled.
Sure, it might encourage them to run, but I'm not against people running. Particularly when backstab is also a far more reliable poison delivery system than throw or kill combined.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 22, 2016, 03:35:50 PM
I disagree that it becomes less useful for characters with low strength.
As a player of elves, I feel the ability to knock off 40-60hp at once is pretty stellar for something that usually only hits for <10 hp per hit, even when far more skilled.
Sure, it might encourage them to run, but I'm not against people running. Particularly when backstab is also a far more reliable poison delivery system than throw or kill combined.
Untrue, especially in the case of Peraine. Whether intentional or not, when delivered in combat it almost always fails/wears off during the first pulse. When delivered by arrow or throw, it is far more effective. Perhaps it has something to do with the combat counter.
Also, while I'm not against people running either, I would like for an "after" delay to apply to the victim as well as the assassin, forcing a few rounds of combat.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 22, 2016, 02:55:11 PM
I think the code savvy understand work around or ways to make backstab effective. I would challenge anyone to describe another skill in the game that requires that level of esoteric knowledge. Magick is way more simple than the complex skill that is backstab.
:/
For psionicists, every skill is like backstab.
i'm not code savvy, but if you have terradin and grishen on your knives and you backstab a guy successfully, and that poison takes (which is a fairly good chance), then guess what?
that guy's fucking doomed. there is no way he's coming back from that.
assassins have so many abilities that are situationally effective. backstab is one of them.
if you backstab, with poisoned weapons, from a position of advantage (maybe you threw a knife at them with peraine to stop them first? that works sometimes), then you can guarantee a chance of victory.
backstab is not your kingmaker ability. it is one ability in a set meant to be used together to achieve your goals.
coincidentally, a one-shot backstab is not a guarantee, but i can rattle off on one hand the number of times i've been backstabbed - and at least one of those was an instant kill.
Quote from: evilcabbage on August 22, 2016, 04:13:46 PM
i'm not code savvy, but if you have terradin and grishen on your knives and you backstab a guy successfully, and that poison takes (which is a fairly good chance), then guess what?
flee
get tablet pack
get tablet pack
eat tablet
eat tablet
e
e
e
s
safe
Read the throw helpfile carefully.
Consider the possibilities when incorporating multiple skills that assassins get.
Quote from: Jingo on August 22, 2016, 03:59:33 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 22, 2016, 02:55:11 PM
I think the code savvy understand work around or ways to make backstab effective. I would challenge anyone to describe another skill in the game that requires that level of esoteric knowledge. Magick is way more simple than the complex skill that is backstab.
:/
For psionicists, every skill is like backstab.
Touché, but we are now comparing skills from a 8 karma class to a 0 karma class. And psionicists are a whole bag in themselves.
Quote from: Yam on August 22, 2016, 04:20:59 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on August 22, 2016, 04:13:46 PM
i'm not code savvy, but if you have terradin and grishen on your knives and you backstab a guy successfully, and that poison takes (which is a fairly good chance), then guess what?
flee
get tablet pack
get tablet pack
eat tablet
eat tablet
e
e
e
s
safe
As Yam illustrates, far from doomed.
yeah okay, you do that inside a closed room with no escape vectors.
if you're an assassin shanking someone in any location where they have valid escape routes, you are definitely doing it "wrong".
you wait for the opportune moment to strike, or create one.
as i said.
peraine'd beforehand.
then terradin and grishen.
the backstab.
the previous damage.
if you get the flee attacks, even better. flee is not a guarantee.
Uh huh.
Warrior Slipknife: sneak/hide in and kill with poisoned weapons. Far superior combat after the drop (even using trained backstab!)
Assassin/Anything: train harder dude, also buff up on your meta code knowledge.
The choice seems simple.
meta/code knowledge can be seen as ic knowledge of tactics.
"i can go in there RIGHT NOW and try to get this one big hit, or i can set him up. i can harry him with a couple knives, maybe catch him with some poison, then go in for the kill like a SMART PERSON WOULD."
or i can bitch on the forums that backstab isn't powerful enough and then go "uh huh" when all this stuff is thrown in my face about how a proper hit is supposed to go.
Cabbage, I respect Reiloth as a player, and a person, and I find your ignorant tone completely dismissive of the point he's trying to make, I do not appreciate it. I bet any PC he has had could murder yours, then teabag it, an inform you that the logical course of action is to "git gud skrub". If you have a point, make it, don't just flounder about sputtering like you have a mixture of turrets, epilepsy, and some kind of mood disorder. And he could likely do it with backstab.
it only became ignorant when i got a smarmy "uh huh" in response.
you also know nothing about me as a player. don't make judgements about what i am capable of as a player with a pc. you might be surprised.
my point, quite simply, is this: backstab is not meant to be an instant kill. it can be underwhelming like EVERY SKILL IN THE GAME, and that is why you have other abilities to compensate for it.
Again. I just want to reiterate that I'm really not adverse to fleshing out/development of skills as a whole. I'm not trying to stand on the other side of the line from the OP in this particular case.
I just want to note that this is far less of a problem than its being made to sound. I've no doubt in Reiloth's abilities to play assassins, that's not my intent. I just think that the way it works is actually kind of conducive to the amount of thought that goes into an assassin's method of killing is all. I don't want them going into combat completely confident in their ability to take on anything. Even a maxxed assassin should have very real concerns about coming out of position to deliver their blow; they're designed for fighting in the city, and the city is a pretty tricky place to fight. If you're really really wary of having a long delay after wards, I'm guessing you didn't use your other skills to investigate beforehand, or to set up the situation to avoid having to worry. I don't think assassins are made for 'surprise! Someone attacked you!' combat unless they're the surprise. I don't think they're made to dominate every alley fight. I think they stalk, they hunt, they kill a target, not a random event. However, a highly skilled assassin still doesn't have to worry too often about the latter.
As far as running? Sure. They run. If you engage them in the open street and expect them not to run, I'd have expected you to plan better. You've other skills that make running away less viable. A lot of them, in fact.
As far as poisons and tablets? That's why there was another thread made about it. The 'eat tablet and run' spam is less about the run, and more about the current state of poisons. It's not backstab's problem that we've made most poisons easily circumvented. I don't think there's a problem with backstab in its current form as far as fulfilling its purpose, which is a surprise spike of damage to initiate a fight that you're hoping to end quickly. If you're not looking to end it quickly, that is when the after-delay becomes an issue.
thank you armaddict.
you said it almost as good as a cabbage could.
backstab is not your kingmaker. it is a skill to be used in conjunction with your other skills.
Quote from: evilcabbage on August 22, 2016, 07:12:00 PM
thank you armaddict.
backstab is not your kingmaker. it is a skill to be used in conjunction with your other skills.
Several people are making the point that the skill is not used.
Quote from: Large Hero on August 22, 2016, 07:33:41 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on August 22, 2016, 07:12:00 PM
thank you armaddict.
backstab is not your kingmaker. it is a skill to be used in conjunction with your other skills.
Several people are making the point that the skill is not used.
Correct. While not a kingmaker, it is as defining a trait/skill as 'bash' is to Warrior, or actually more accurately Archery is to Ranger.
I would take Archery over Backstab every day of the week.
*Ranged delivery of poisons.
*Far less delay than Backstab
*Ability to quickly move or hide after shooting.
*Incredible damage from a distance (OHK or Near OHK depending on the bow/strength).
Just out of curiosity evilcabbage -- Are you basing your posts purely on conjecture or actual experience with Assassin/backstab?
actual experience, both using and having it used against me.
especially against. it has been extremely deadly in every instance it has been used on me, and i do not believe i have ever gotten away - because of the aforementioned situations
a) i was in no position to run because i was knocked over,
b) i was in a closed room with no escape, or
c) a mega high strength pc used it on me.
i've had it drilled into me about three or four times, and option C only happened a grand total of - one time.
options a and b happened the other times.
i've been playing the game for almost seven years, and you don't think i've faced off with a master assassin backstab at least three times? come on, reiloth. backstab isn't the end-all be-all of an assassin, it's one skill. assassins poison, throw, and backstab, are as defining as a warriors kick, bash and disarm. they are the three skills that define the killing power of that class.
I'm not asking if you know what the receiving end of a good backstab from a high strength Assassin looks like. I'm asking if you've used the skill yourself. Because that's mostly what i'm talking about.
As Yam mentioned, the binary nature of Backstab itself doesn't make a OHK even enjoyable for an Assassin or the victim. It's kind of a lame skill even if it works at 100% efficacy.
>backstab person
>You kill the person and they see a mantis head.
>w
Like many binary skills in the game, i'm suggesting some more grey areas for a skill that has pretty much no nuance.
I completely love the concept for variations in the backstab outcome. It's a skill as old as Armageddon herself and we've always known it needed some love, but I've never heard such a good solution for it. It's hard to discuss without considering the imbalance in the current stealth guilds though. I'd really like to see something done for the pickpocket and burglar guilds first.
if you read my posts previous i agreed with your different versions of backstab.
so.
what are you asking me? yes i have played assassins. yes i have used backstab. no i personally do not like it. i never have liked the assassin guild.
Cool.
I don't think the problem is so much with backstab as it is with the assassin guild.
Sneak/hide and locked rooms are OP. But you don't need backstab in those situation, you just need great combat skills. However, assassins are generally piss poor fighters almost all their lives. Warrior/slipknife, Ranger/slipknife, ranger/rogue will do it better and have more fun getting to that point.
What full Assassins should excel at attacking targets that are otherwise hard to get into an apartment. Therefore, instead of making backstab just damage, how about depending on the mastery it gets other bonuses that aren't just damage related:
- You will attempt to cutoff opponents that you've back-stabbed for a short period of time (flee skill will increase your chances to get away).
- You are cloaked, hiding your mdesc for a short period of time (vs watch skill)
- The delay should be shortened exponentially based on your mastery
I am okay with backstab not being a OHK, but I'm not okay with other guilds with the right sub-guilds being more enjoyable to play while at the same time being superior killers in most situations.
Quote from: TFort on August 22, 2016, 11:51:01 PM
I don't think the problem is so much with backstab as it is with the assassin guild.
Sneak/hide and locked rooms are OP. But you don't need backstab in those situation, you just need great combat skills. However, assassins are generally piss poor fighters almost all their lives. Warrior/slipknife, Ranger/slipknife, ranger/rogue will do it better and have more fun getting to that point.
What full Assassins should excel at attacking targets that are otherwise hard to get into an apartment. Therefore, instead of making backstab just damage, how about depending on the mastery it gets other bonuses that aren't just damage related:
- You will attempt to cutoff opponents that you've back-stabbed for a short period of time (flee skill will increase your chances to get away).
- You are cloaked, hiding your mdesc for a short period of time (vs watch skill)
- The delay should be shortened exponentially based on your mastery
I am okay with backstab not being a OHK, but I'm not okay with other guilds with the right sub-guilds being more enjoyable to play while at the same time being superior killers in most situations.
Completely agree with this. I once played a fairly beefy assassin but I would not again. Of the signature skills, trap and backstab, one was removed and the other is pretty much useless against the flee command.
Agreed, well phrased T.
Meh, I don't think many assassins ever reach their full combat potential, because very few of them go out and fight the critters that let you -get- to that point, not to mention doing it frequently enough to matter. (Although...there is a critter in 'nak that will let you grind up to at least advanced dual wield...you'll just look kind of special doing it.) I've personally only had an assassin PC survive to branch parry two or three times, and I doubt they ever guild-maxed it. All the times, the PC spent an inordinate amount of time in the Byn getting nowhere, then finally branched after a couple days' played worth of critter grinding. Sparring is trash, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. The Staff know about it. Until they do something about it, you can either embrace the suck or embrace the critter grind.
False, sparring is the best way if you have the right partners and technique. I got a ranger near max (including a master weapon skill) in 20 days - not including the weapon skill, about 5-6 days. All it requires is dedication to training, you don't have to go overboard. Granted, I know the code very well and I normally don't have the patience to train like that, but it's absolutely possible. Critters are the way to go if you don't have a reliable group to train with or if you're still in that beginning curve. But if you want to reach the real heights you have to find a partner.
All that said, combat training sucks and assassins are definitely noticeably weaker than the other classes. I haven't played a max assassin, but now I'm tempted to try it just to see. The problem is, it's hard to come up with a rich concept that I'll be able to execute and build on without becoming assassin/hunter #837421.
Quote from: Delirium on August 23, 2016, 12:22:09 PM
False, sparring is the best way if you have the right partners and technique. I got a ranger near max (including a master weapon skill) in 20 days - not including the weapon skill, about 5-6 days. All it requires is dedication to training, you don't have to go overboard. Granted, I know the code very well and I normally don't have the patience to train like that, but it's absolutely possible. Critters are the way to go if you don't have a reliable group to train with or if you're still in that beginning curve. But if you want to reach the real heights you have to find a partner.
All that said, combat training sucks and assassins are definitely noticeably weaker than the other classes. I haven't played a max assassin, but now I'm tempted to try it just to see. The problem is, it's hard to come up with a rich concept that I'll be able to execute and build on without becoming assassin/hunter #837421.
Nope. Nope. Nope. But, I'm not going to argue with you about it here. Don't listen to Delirium here, folks. Her experience (which I have serious doubts about) is not the norm.
(http://cdn3.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/harry-potter-shrug.gif)
Synthesis all Dunning-Kruger over here about his twink power level.
Re: Delirium and Syntheses)
In the last year or two, two changes in particular affect this discussion -- I've managed to get an Assassin up to pretty top shop in about ten days played (with parry).
1. New smaller creatures all over the place around Allanak (rats, vultures, scorpions, chalton).
2. Recent changes to sparring code.
Quote from: nauta on August 23, 2016, 01:02:57 PM
Re: Delirium and Syntheses)
In the last year or two, two changes in particular affect this discussion -- I've managed to get an Assassin up to pretty top shop in about ten days played (with parry).
1. New smaller creatures all over the place around Allanak (rats, vultures, scorpions, chalton).
2. Recent changes to sparring code.
1. Like I said already, there is a critter in the city that will let you grind your dual-wield to at least (advanced).
2. What recent changes?
[citation needed]Anyway, this is all sort of a derail, but (whether it's true or not), I think overall combat ability plays into backstab effectiveness, so it's at least partially relevant? At this point, I don't really care. People are going to believe what they're going to believe, and there's very little you can do to change their minds.
And no, sparring isn't -always- trash. If you have someone in your clan who already has insanely high base defense, and an outstanding agility stat, and they're willing to do nothing except act like a critter for you to grind on, then yes, sparring will work just like critter grinding. But that initial PC that you're grinding on? They probably had to critter grind to get to the point where they're a useful sparring buddy, so the general principal is the same, it's merely a step removed. If you take two noob warriors, rangers, assassins, whatever, and just have them spar each other and nothing else, they'll reach a stochastically-insurmountable plateau, unless you have godlike patience.
Unless there's been some magical change to sparring in the last 6 months that I haven't played.
I would say that the main thing I'd personally condone for more immediate attention out of this thread is that backstab should probably be far less strength-affected.
Let the double-attack of doom after the backstab be where the dwarf assassin's damage comes from, not the backstab itself.
That way, if the rest of these ideas come to fruition or other modifications are made, I won't be griping about how we made it completely overdone (if we implemented this with huge damage from strength still, I'd be pretty baffled as to how you could call it a good idea).
Quote from: Synthesis on August 23, 2016, 01:48:47 PM
Quote from: nauta on August 23, 2016, 01:02:57 PM
Re: Delirium and Syntheses)
In the last year or two, two changes in particular affect this discussion -- I've managed to get an Assassin up to pretty top shop in about ten days played (with parry).
1. New smaller creatures all over the place around Allanak (rats, vultures, scorpions, chalton).
2. Recent changes to sparring code.
2. What recent changes? [citation needed]
Unless there's been some magical change to sparring in the last 6 months that I haven't played.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51282.msg947381.html#msg947381
And if you go deeper into Nergal's post history you'll see he made some changes to sparring. I was extremely skeptical at first but it seems like sparring is far more viable than it was in the past.
Yeah, my experience is that sparring your equal isn't really all that helpful, it's sparring people better than you that improves you. And interestingly enough, it just takes 1 person to critter grind and you can have dozens of high skilled PCs result from it. They spar with people, then later those people spar with new players, and so on. By far my strongest character was in a sparring guild full of characters like that, I rocketed up to journeyman so fast I thought it was a bug or something.
If two people are on an equal threshold, there are still viable options. You just have to be willing to work as a team to train each other.
I hated sparring for the longest time until I figured out how to make it work, heh.
The changes helped, but critter grinding is still an option for those who are unable or unwilling to do the social sparring route.
There's also been some noticable changes to wisdom, synthesis, that I've been enjoying. Could be my imagination, however. Time will tell.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 23, 2016, 03:22:20 PM
There's also been some noticable changes to wisdom, synthesis, that I've been enjoying. Could be my imagination, however. Time will tell.
Not your imagination. It's a significant improvement.
Wisdom doesn't matter if you aren't getting fails.
The crux of the problem is generating failures on the high end.
In the Byn, or most other clans that aren't stacked with critter-grinders, once you get to high jman in a weapon skill, you can literally go RL weeks without ever getting a fail in sparring.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to get your clannies to go along with the training regimen you need to use to artificially generate those failures by creating the perfect set of circumstances. I know what it is, trust me. But everyone a) thinks they know better or b) needs to train different things, so they don't want to waste their time with training -your- skills properly. Also, you cannot coordinate that IC without essentially blowing your cover as one of several knowledgeable GDB personas, and you can't honestly roleplay being a combat-training-master-personal-trainer if your PC is a lousy piece of shit. I mean, seriously...trying to play that scenario out in my head as a 'rinther just seems ludicrous to me. Even then...once you get not very far beyond high jman, generating failures by the "optimal sparring method," even with a reasonably good partner, starts becoming very rare...and that's just with a single weapon/style, mind you.
I get this feeling that like, most knowledgeable people know how fucking retarded it is, but they kind of keep it under wraps or deny it because it makes it easier to git gud relative to all the scrubs out there who have no idea what they're doing.
QuoteI get this feeling that like, most knowledgeable people know how fucking retarded it is, but they kind of keep it under wraps or deny it because it makes it easier to git gud relative to all the scrubs out there who have no idea what they're doing.
It really doesn't occur to you that your opinion on the matter could just be different than others who think it's fine and doing what we'd like it to do? That your endless pursuit of (master) is just completely altogether contrary to mine, where I don't want you to hit (master) by spending time in a safe environment, or that I disagree that it should take less time altogether?
I think that's kind of speaking more out of your ego, to the point that you're casually tossing out a statement that says anyone who disagrees with you is, more than likely, blatantly trying to fuck people over. I think that's pretty rude on your part.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 23, 2016, 04:49:43 PM
Wisdom doesn't matter if you aren't getting fails.
The crux of the problem is generating failures on the high end.
In the Byn, or most other clans that aren't stacked with critter-grinders, once you get to high jman in a weapon skill, you can literally go RL weeks without ever getting a fail in sparring.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to get your clannies to go along with the training regimen you need to use to artificially generate those failures by creating the perfect set of circumstances. I know what it is, trust me. But everyone a) thinks they know better or b) needs to train different things, so they don't want to waste their time with training -your- skills properly. Also, you cannot coordinate that IC without essentially blowing your cover as one of several knowledgeable GDB personas, and you can't honestly roleplay being a combat-training-master-personal-trainer if your PC is a lousy piece of shit. I mean, seriously...trying to play that scenario out in my head as a 'rinther just seems ludicrous to me. Even then...once you get not very far beyond high jman, generating failures by the "optimal sparring method," even with a reasonably good partner, starts becoming very rare...and that's just with a single weapon/style, mind you.
I get this feeling that like, most knowledgeable people know how fucking retarded it is, but they kind of keep it under wraps or deny it because it makes it easier to git gud relative to all the scrubs out there who have no idea what they're doing.
It might behoove you to check out the changes posted above made by Nergal. They threw off our crotchety jaded vet calculations a bit. And yes, drastic changes in the 6 months you were gone Synth. Git Gud Bra.
It occurs to me that that's an exceptional scenario, Synthesis, usually arising after a total party wipe with only a few survivors. I'd say more on the matter but I can't, unfortunately, so I apologize for having to use the line find out IC, if you can. There's been a LOT of tweaks lately and most of us don't really know what half of them are, only hints, and just have to feel it out. The changes as of late have been of staggering proportions, not to mention that there's now a building team and so browsing the markets or typing craft useless.thing is actually an exciting grab bag of results as of late. There's calls going out for submissions of new crafts all the time, so that thing you set a trigger to auto-junk might just be something wickedly cool.
... and there's likely to be more tweaks if the momentum keeps up. For a few years things felt kind of stagnant and bits of code that seemed to be counter-intuitive were just "how it is" and you had to "deal with it". I'm enjoying the changes immensely and perhaps over time these issues that are had with certain skills and guild balance will be adjusted in favorable ways.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 23, 2016, 05:18:09 PM
QuoteI get this feeling that like, most knowledgeable people know how fucking retarded it is, but they kind of keep it under wraps or deny it because it makes it easier to git gud relative to all the scrubs out there who have no idea what they're doing.
It really doesn't occur to you that your opinion on the matter could just be different than others who think it's fine and doing what we'd like it to do? That your endless pursuit of (master) is just completely altogether contrary to mine, where I don't want you to hit (master) by spending time in a safe environment, or that I disagree that it should take less time altogether?
I think that's kind of speaking more out of your ego, to the point that you're casually tossing out a statement that says anyone who disagrees with you is, more than likely, blatantly trying to fuck people over. I think that's pretty rude on your part.
If you are making those arguments, you obviously aren't who I'm talking about.
I'm talking about the people who just blatantly deny that things work the way they clearly do, when they obviously know better. E.g. "I made it worked under exceptional circumstances, so everything's fine!"
Quote from: Reiloth on August 23, 2016, 05:18:33 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 23, 2016, 04:49:43 PM
Wisdom doesn't matter if you aren't getting fails.
The crux of the problem is generating failures on the high end.
In the Byn, or most other clans that aren't stacked with critter-grinders, once you get to high jman in a weapon skill, you can literally go RL weeks without ever getting a fail in sparring.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to get your clannies to go along with the training regimen you need to use to artificially generate those failures by creating the perfect set of circumstances. I know what it is, trust me. But everyone a) thinks they know better or b) needs to train different things, so they don't want to waste their time with training -your- skills properly. Also, you cannot coordinate that IC without essentially blowing your cover as one of several knowledgeable GDB personas, and you can't honestly roleplay being a combat-training-master-personal-trainer if your PC is a lousy piece of shit. I mean, seriously...trying to play that scenario out in my head as a 'rinther just seems ludicrous to me. Even then...once you get not very far beyond high jman, generating failures by the "optimal sparring method," even with a reasonably good partner, starts becoming very rare...and that's just with a single weapon/style, mind you.
I get this feeling that like, most knowledgeable people know how fucking retarded it is, but they kind of keep it under wraps or deny it because it makes it easier to git gud relative to all the scrubs out there who have no idea what they're doing.
It might behoove you to check out the changes posted above made by Nergal. They threw off our crotchety jaded vet calculations a bit. And yes, drastic changes in the 6 months you were gone Synth. Git Gud Bra.
I doubt those changes have anything to do with fail generation. I suspect it's all changes in how large the skill-bump is from a failure for a combat skill. That's the easiest explanation for "easier to skill up early on, still hard to skill up later on."
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 23, 2016, 05:20:35 PM
It occurs to me that that's an exceptional scenario, Synthesis, usually arising after a total party wipe with only a few survivors. I'd say more on the matter but I can't, unfortunately, so I apologize for having to use the line find out IC, if you can. There's been a LOT of tweaks lately and most of us don't really know what half of them are, only hints, and just have to feel it out. The changes as of late have been of staggering proportions, not to mention that there's now a building team and so browsing the markets or typing craft useless.thing is actually an exciting grab bag of results as of late. There's calls going out for submissions of new crafts all the time, so that thing you set a trigger to auto-junk might just be something wickedly cool.
... and there's likely to be more tweaks if the momentum keeps up. For a few years things felt kind of stagnant and bits of code that seemed to be counter-intuitive were just "how it is" and you had to "deal with it". I'm enjoying the changes immensely and perhaps over time these issues that are had with certain skills and guild balance will be adjusted in favorable ways.
No, it's not an exceptional scenario. It's -the- common scenario. Nobody in city-based clans is "good." PCs with good stats and decent skills look good to scrubs, but they really aren't. For example...when I was playing Giuseppe, that Byn Sarge with nearly the same sdesc was already in-game. I went through the Byn and was competent. I went to Northern Salarr and branched my first weapon skills before I got exiled from Tuluk. Then I joined Oash and power-grinded on Ultimate Mobs while "patrolling."
That Byn Sarge made lieutenant in the Byn and later invited me to come back and spar with him. I fucking pulverized him. Like had him half-dead with sparring weapons while he barely grazed me a single time. Giuseppe's stats were about average for the current game: good strength, egood agility. Nothing to write home about.
I had a dwarf ranger join the Tulki Legions after I had spent a lot of time power-grinding, and I straight-up fucking embarrassed a Jihaen Templar in sparring. Like lit his ass up and nearly killed him with sparring weapons.
That's the difference, folks. It is -enormous-.
My argument is that honestly, there is NO REASON why a Jihaen templar or a Byn Lieutenant, who have spent their entire careers training to fight other people, who have been sparring and sparring and sparring religiously, should get their asses handed to them by a guy who just started wrassling stilt lizards (may they RIP) once he mastered disarm.
Yes, it should be difficult to "git gud," but the difficulty shouldn't be based on code knowledge and willingness to risk your ass fighting Epic Mobs (or knowing the extra-special mobs that you can literally grind to mastery on with zero risk, but only if you have 'scan' mastered).
Edited to add: and I feel like I should point out that I'm not that guy who's running around trying to murder your ass. I think all of my few recent PKs or attempts have been straight-up filthy peasant-on-peasant action. In fact...I think I might've only actually attacked one other PC in the last
year, and it was solely motivated by the fact that it was a semi-noob trying to take advantage of a completely clueless nub in like...the worst, most ridiculous possible way, and I almost died keeping it from happening. My memory could be failing me, though. I've been taking long breaks of late.
Valid points, I'm just noticing the changes, however. I'm not sure skilling up on wildlife is that much more effective now, as I've noticed vast increases but they're new changes, so I'm quite possibly missing something. Like Reiloth said, things are getting shaken up a bit, and what you know to be true may not be the case anymore. I've had others tell me I'm crazy for noticing a significant improvement, then there are others who are like, whoa, this is NOT how I remember it being, so eh, all my anecdotal evidence neither proves or disproves anything, and you being far more experienced than I, may have a better grasp of WHAT changed, but only if you play.
I mean, your diatribe on code is one i've seen before Synth. But it's possible it's a little behind the times, considering code changes that occurred between 1995 and now.
the difference is synthesis is generally, 95% of the time, right about what he says.
this just might be one of the 5%.
Quote from: evilcabbage on August 23, 2016, 06:53:27 PM
the difference is synthesis is generally, 95% of the time, right about what he says.
this just might be one of the 5%.
95%?
I mean, Synth strongly states his opinions, but 95%?
... 67%?
Ooooookay.
You can't just say things without providing evidence.
Who here, recently, due to code changes, has actually branched an advanced weapon skill, while doing nothing but sparring in a city-based clan, against only PCs that you know have never engaged in the critter grind?
Quote from: evilcabbage on August 23, 2016, 06:57:49 PM
... 67%?
(http://www.mountrantmore.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Bernie-Mac-Meme.jpg)
Quote from: Synthesis on August 23, 2016, 07:01:40 PM
Ooooookay.
You can't just say things without providing evidence.
Who here, recently, due to code changes, has actually branched an advanced weapon skill, while doing nothing but sparring in a city-based clan, against only PCs that you know have never engaged in the critter grind?
That's a rather limited control group, Synth.
I know there was a PC in the Byn who branched an advanced weapon skill, think it was the only elf for a while, too, and this was before the changes. I've seen people in isolated roles branch them, too.
He hasn't played in 6 months. His position is unassailable.
Quote from: Yam on August 23, 2016, 07:05:17 PM
He hasn't played in 6 months. His position is unassailable.
The fact that I even asked the question means I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, numbnuts.
I'm asking for evidence, not telling you all to fuck off.
No, I'm telling you to fuck off, now, because you're being a little bitch.
Sigged.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 23, 2016, 07:10:09 PM
Quote from: Yam on August 23, 2016, 07:05:17 PM
He hasn't played in 6 months. His position is unassailable.
The fact that I even asked the question means I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, numbnuts.
I'm asking for evidence, not telling you all to fuck off.
No, I'm telling you to fuck off, now, because you're being a little bitch.
Pretty hard to give evidence about things that have taken place in the game in the past 6 months.
Let's have folks calm down and get back on topic so this doesn't get locked.
Heh, it's likely headed that way anyways. The Code Guru has spoken, pith instructions have been given, and Backstab is apparently fine as it is.
Meanwhile, i'm probably not going to play an Assassin again, what with these Subguild options that offer backstab and poison anyways, not to mention better combinations of Ranger/Warrior/Ext Subguild. Your 'Guild' doesn't define your PC, so why limit your 'Assassin' to a mediocre skill set that has most of the teeth rounded off at the ends?
I'm willing to bet nobody, because most people in sparring clans have duties that take them outside the walls where they'll fight something other than each other. I will however be prioritizing wisdom on my next spar monkey, to see how noticeable this difference is. I do still think Assassin could use some love, like the other 2 weapon skills, and archery, and the ability to climb down things.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 23, 2016, 04:49:43 PM
The crux of the problem is generating failures on the high end.
This is what the recent code changes addressed. Skill increases occur without failures now, relative to the skill of your opponent. From second hand sources, it seems to have alleviated the sparring grind by a considerable margin.
Jingo is correct on the grind not really being as much of a thing now.
If you gain more per failure during the non-plateau phase, it makes grinding to the plateau phase shorter, that's it.
My point is that if you are not failing (and by all accounts I've seen thus far, they have not redefined what constitutes a failure), it doesn't matter how much better your opponent is than you. You aren't failing, so your skillgain is always zero. I haven't seen anything that suggest that you passively gain skill merely by being engaged in a fight with someone better than you.
Also, for advanced weapon branching...you have to factor out the PCs that start with a jman weapon skill due to cgp skill bumps. It's much easier to get from jman to master with a weapon skill if your base O isn't pumping up your dice rolls and causing you not to fail.
Edited to add a citation:
Quote from: Nergal on February 15, 2016, 12:08:11 PM
You are more likely to gain in the listed skills if the opponent you're failing against is more skilled at fighting than you are.
I swear to god I have seen a tick in my craft skills after a SUCCESS, Synthesis, which is the easiest, most risk-free way to measure it, particularly with the craft changes (difficulty of recipes being shown), whether it was just that one craft, or just craft skills and not combat skills, I can't tell you. I remember checking my skill list and available recipes right after a successful craft and being like, OMFG WAT?! Of course, it MAY be dependent on your wis score, I wouldn't know. All I know is I've noticed some big changes in the skill grind. It's entirely possible the whole "plateau" thing is a thing of the past, hopefully, it is.
EDIT: They did announce a wisdom change with the words along the lines of: "Wisdom is not the automatic dump stat anymore".
The code still requires a fail for 90% of skill-ups. I HAVE seen skills go up without a straight up miss, but generally speaking... you need to have ONE supreme badass to train a bunch of people quicker. I spar against people at relative skill to me, and I don't mind saying I havn't gotten above apprentice in over 10days played yet.
My assumption is that its due to new people boosting their weapon skills, so I COULD learn more from them (if they're at Jman), but because they're new and have no defenses, I don't miss.
It can be very frustrating to build a concept out of "I fight people not animals" when fighting animals is the only sure way (despite minor risk) to get better at your chosen profession of killing humans.
Quote from: Riev on August 24, 2016, 12:32:17 PM
The code still requires a fail for 90% of skill-ups. I HAVE seen skills go up without a straight up miss, but generally speaking... you need to have ONE supreme badass to train a bunch of people quicker. I spar against people at relative skill to me, and I don't mind saying I havn't gotten above apprentice in over 10days played yet.
My assumption is that its due to new people boosting their weapon skills, so I COULD learn more from them (if they're at Jman), but because they're new and have no defenses, I don't miss.
It can be very frustrating to build a concept out of "I fight people not animals" when fighting animals is the only sure way (despite minor risk) to get better at your chosen profession of killing humans.
EDIT: I'm actually not sure if it's ok to go into that much detail with my experience with the code.
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 24, 2016, 03:27:38 PM
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.
I think they secretly giggle at a lot of assumptions we make about code as players.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 24, 2016, 03:27:38 PM
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.
It's not tinfoil hats.
Riev is sitting at 10 days played with jman whatever.
I hit jman whatever in 2 days, and now I'm at 4 and most likely damn near advanced already.
Sparring. Is. Trash.
I think you'd enjoy the game a lot more if you turned on brief skills.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2016, 05:08:36 PM
I think you'd enjoy the game a lot more if you turned on brief skills.
I never said I don't enjoy the game.
I do enjoy "not sucking," though, which most definitely limits my choices up until day 20. You can tell whether you suck or not regardless of having skills brief on.
If I could "not suck" and chill in a clan, I'd much prefer to do it that way. That's not how this shit works, though.
And bringing it back to backstab...assuming it works how I think it works (which ADMITTEDLY is mostly speculation), very few PCs ever have maxed out its potential, and you can't tell whether something isn't working up to its potential if you've never, ever been there.
Well. Assassins in sparring-heavy classes certainly seem to suck.
Until they get back out into their element where they get to use everything at their disposal instead of literally being thrown repeatedly into the warrior's best-case-scenario.
Altogether, what I mean is that all the terminology about journeyman and advanced makes people sound like they don't realize that they're pounding the shit out of what turns out to be a majority of the PC population and holding their own quite capably against most fauna they'd run into. Once you hit the point you're doing that well, when out of the element that you're supposed to excel in, griping about sparring is kind of a moot point. My analogy is a motorcycle racer hopping into a nascar training course and calling their course shit and their car shit even though you'll eventually be going back to motorcycle racing with some knowledge of the race tracks ahead.
I still stand by that assassins are a-okay and even pretty awesome, but I'm not against improvements to backstab being made. I just don't stand by the 'this class is weak' arguments, ever, because I've made every class in this game aside from merchant into a killing machine at some point or another. Whenever I hear 'this class is weak', all I hear is 'I wish I was another class', in which case I say you should probably play the other class.
I too think assassins are fine the way they are.
That's kind of the whole point. I'm arguing against changes, because I think the class is fine, and the backstab skill is just as dangerous as it's supposed to be, given a particular level of overall skill.
Assassins in sparring clans suck -at first- because they start with crazy-low base defense, so they get rekt, even compared to rangers, who ostensibly have the same crippling handicap (lack of parry). This lack of base D kind of slows their early progression until their base D gets high enough for them to stand and swing for a while, thereby generating the fails needed to actually increase weapon and style skills. Over time, though, their base D gets high enough. They're definitely 4 or 5 days behind the curve.
This is another reason why critter-grinding is even better for assassins and rangers: there are plenty of critters out there that are a solid A+ for noob grinding that pose absolutely no danger to you unless you are trapped in a room with them. There is NO REASON why it should be better for my assassin to climb up and antagonize roof snakes than to spar in the Byn. Currently, it is (my last assassin actually branched parry fighting a fucking roof snake...I have never branched parry in the Byn, ever).
Ah. My bad, through this meandering I got the impression you were calling assassins too weak.
After a brief discussion with Smoky (who hasn't played in ages), I wanted to point something out about backstab.
Yes, low strength master backstab may only do 40-60hp of damage. (Only. Heh. Strength snobs.) But I've yet to ever have a scenario in the game, against intelligent players, where someone took that kind of damage in less than 3 seconds and didn't start immediately trying to get the fuck out. This has been put into the light, in this thread, of being a weakness. "They get to run away." However...much like the sparring ring is the best-case-scenario for a warrior, a one on one matchup against someone who no longer wants the fight is the best-case-scenario for an assassin. They get the fuck out. And you hunt them. You've a myriad of tools at your disposal to keep their escape temporary. You've everything you need to make sure that they are either still vulnerable to you, or at the mercy of something else in the game. Sure, sometimes they get away. But that happens to pretty much every class in the game in their best case scenario. It's arguably warriors who have the easiest time 'locking' someone into their best-case-scenario. Even rangers, in open desert, can have an extremely hard time keeping someone pinned down where they want them.
I think that's why i view this differently than some of you. When I play assassins, I PLAN on having to hunt them a little bit, unless I've previously set things up to prevent that from happening.
Yeah. Well. I think some people are enthralled by the possibility of being able to nail someone dead right in the middle of the Gaj and prance out while slapping the NPC soldier on the ass.
That ain't gonna happen unless you're a serious badass, and you get lucky. It is possible, because someone's done it to me, but I've never instagibbed anyone that wasn't either subdued or already seriously injured (RIP subdue-backstab).
So, basically, banish that thought. And I think that's -fine-. I'm not comfortable with a 0-karma class having reliable instagib powers, whether it's at 20 days played or 100 days played.
If you can't arrange a scenario where you've stacked the deck in your favor, then DON'T ATTEMPT THE PK. It's really that simple. Have some damn patience, people.
thank you, both of you.
you said what i wanted to say. and was saying, less effectively.
backstab can one hit kill. it's not meant to always do it. that's why you set the fight up to be in your favor to begin with. you get them trapped, helpless, knock them over, prep poisons beforehand.
assassins are kind of like the batman who kills. you are supposed to take all this time to prepare the fight ahead of time and foresee every scenario so you can counter it. that's the point of assassins.
But the point is that it's generally more effective to just forgo the backstab entirely, prepare well, and then straight up 'kill' or 'bash' someone.
i don't know, getting an instant 40-60 damage and then a free shot afterwards with the chance to drop a poison proc instantly?
yeah.
backstab is fine.
if you prefer not to use it, don't use it.
every time it was ever used against me by another player, it ended with me dead because it simply took too much hp from me in one shot for me to get away from.
Speaking from experience, str does factor alot into assassins -combat-, but they still have a myriad of skills. Now, a short while back I had a maxed warrior who had branched advanced weapons, and he trained assassins. An assassin - with adequate training, can do some fucking HURTING in a fight, and that's NOT including poisons/backstab/stealth/throw. A well-trained assassin - I mean well-trained, bad-ass, can kill a warrior as easy as breathing. So no, assassins don't need tweaks.
Quote from: Yam on August 24, 2016, 06:06:03 PM
But the point is that it's generally more effective to just forgo the backstab entirely, prepare well, and then straight up 'kill' or 'bash' someone.
If you have bash, sure, that's a good thing that might prevent them from running as long as you've gotten it to where you can succeed at it every time they stand up.
If you use kill, you're doing less opening damage in exchange for lower delay, and altogether creating an atmosphere more likely to be 'comfortable' for someone to stick around in. Hence what I said. The beauty of the backstab opening is that it rarely results in a straight up fight afterwards. It usually results in you hunting the person, not in you being vulnerable while delayed.
So I completely disagree with the idea that it's in a useless spot. I think you're just expecting the flawless kill a lot and not planning ahead to the fact that you're a city killer. You will move about the city, or you'll manipulate things in the city that make running either impossible or useless. I've had backstab used to put me into the scrambling for my life scenario plenty of times. I've used it to put others into that same predicament. But again, in almost no scenario is the assassin actually 'vulnerable' for using a high-skilled backstab. Even uber warriors of doom tend to break and run when they take 60-75% of their health in damage at once, and the moment that you run you're actually vulnerable to a second backstab from a relentless hunter.
A good assassin will be doing about that much damage in a round if not more. And they wont deal with the absurd backstab delay before being able to perform another action.
In most cases it's straight up just better to 'kill' someone than backstab them with a skilled up assassin. Sure, you'll probably be able to kill them either way if you prepare properly, but if you start off with a backstab and they manage to survive it they will be long gone by the time you can throw out another attack, chase them, or do anything at all.
Quotethey manage to survive it they will be long gone by the time you can throw out another attack, chase them, or do anything at all.
If you're talking about chasing them high on their heels, you're doing it wrong. There is very little escape from an assassin unless they <insert escapes here that I won't share>. Well played, well-skilled assassins are the boogeyman who can show up for another backstab anytime they want to. Playing them like a warrior does nothing but make them an underwhelming warrior.
::)
Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2016, 06:21:02 PM
Quotethey manage to survive it they will be long gone by the time you can throw out another attack, chase them, or do anything at all.
If you're talking about chasing them high on their heels, you're doing it wrong. There is very little escape from an assassin unless they <insert escapes here that I won't share>. Well played, well-skilled assassins are the boogeyman who can show up for another backstab anytime they want to. Playing them like a warrior does nothing but make them an underwhelming warrior.
e;eat tablet;e;n;n;e;n;hide;<wait>;quit
Quote from: Yam on August 24, 2016, 06:22:00 PM
::)
And I don't mean to pick on you. Just...responding to the things that come up. But I should sum up that this is my stance on a lot of class-discussion.
We tend to compare all the classes to other classes in terms of being able to do things. But that kind of defeats the purpose of classes to me in the first place. We make them do distinctly different things so that even with the same goal, they have an entirely different method they have to use. A burglar wanting someone dead is an incredibly different story being told than a ranger wanting someone dead. One -is- easier than the other, but neither are actually disadvantaged from doing so. The method is just harder to pull off, as it should be, because one's role is leaning further away from that sort of objective.
In terms of backstab itself, I don't think the skill is lacking, at all, so much as it's kind of being tossed into a more direct-fight mentality where it certainly shines far less. But I really want to meet the player who gets backstabbed for anything greather than 30 hitpoints and sees it and goes 'HA! They used backstab! What a noob, I win!'
Quotee;eat tablet;e;n;n;e;n;hide;<wait>;quit
watch <person>;backstab <person>;e;hunt;n;hunt;n;hunt;e;hunt;n;backstab <person>.
In the case you haven't been watching people much: scan
In the case they are standing still waiting to quit: wish all I've hunted this person to this room and am now searching it methodically.
In the case they succeed in quitting: player complaint: I think this person logged out specifically to avoid having to sleep their health back after I tried to kill them, can you investigate?
In the case they keep running: hunt;hunt;hunt;emote smirks at the very evident blood trail
In the case you have real poisons: All of the above becomes unnecessary because tablets either don't exist or are a death sentence themselves.
In the case you are patient: think I'll try again at this other place where I've been watching them hang out.
In the case you play an assassin: think Ha, I knew I'd find them here. They've fallen into my trap.
The above scenario you've pointed out is not a viable escape from an assassin. That works on rangers, not so much someone who isn't afraid of crimcode.
I don't think backstab in its current form should exist at all. I'm not bitching about the killing power of assassins in general. I'm bitching about the killing power of backstab - it's usually less useful than just straight up typing 'kill elf'. Any guild is capable of murdering the shit out of someone with the right preparation - I absolutely agree. However the thread is about reworking backstab into a skill with more utility than a binary high risk OHK.
I feel like I'm talking to bricks.
Then stop speaking brick.
You spoke specifically about instances that I responded to, and have now backpedaled to a different point that I already agreed with, but have said that the reasoning of 'It's not viable' is not a good reason for it, because it -is- viable. You've now disagreed with that, run into arguments as to why that's untrue, then fallen back to this point and called us bricks for responding to you.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2016, 06:33:09 PM
In the case you haven't been watching people much: scan
In the case they are standing still waiting to quit: wish all I've hunted this person to this room and am now searching it methodically.
In the case they succeed in quitting: player complaint: I think this person logged out specifically to avoid having to sleep their health back after I tried to kill them, can you investigate?
These aren't reliable ways to make someone dead.
Quote
In the case they keep running: hunt;hunt;hunt;emote smirks at the very evident blood trail
They can run to a clan compound, or indoors public place, or just keep spamwalking indefinitely until they can log out, or...
Quote
In the case you have real poisons: All of the above becomes unnecessary because tablets either don't exist or are a death sentence themselves.
If you have serious poisons you're probably better off just using the kill command, which is one of the points at issue here.
Quote
In the case you are patient: think I'll try again at this other place where I've been watching them hang out.
In the case you play an assassin: think Ha, I knew I'd find them here. They've fallen into my trap.
Irrelevant
Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2016, 06:44:31 PM
Then stop speaking brick.
You spoke specifically about instances that I responded to, and have now backpedaled to a different point that I already agreed with, but have said that the reasoning of 'It's not viable' is not a good reason for it, because it -is- viable. You've now disagreed with that, run into arguments as to why that's untrue, then fallen back to this point and called us bricks for responding to you.
I never said backstab wasn't a viable way to kill people. I said it was less effective than just using the kill command.
You're setting up a straw man argument by saying that I think backstab isn't a viable way to kill people. It's a completely viable way to kill people, it's just not as effective as the other tools guild_assassin has (and shares with other guilds). It's also not very fun or interesting. It's basically a dice roll.
QuoteBut the point is that it's generally more effective to just forgo the backstab entirely, prepare well, and then straight up 'kill' or 'bash' someone.
That is what you said that I responded to, Yam. That is, through context, saying something is not really viable. And I went into my whole speech about it. That is not a strawman argument; a strawman is setting up an argument that was never made and fighting that argument. I'm making a direct response to what you've said here.
QuoteQuote from: Armaddict on Today at 07:33:09 AM
In the case you haven't been watching people much: scan
In the case they are standing still waiting to quit: wish all I've hunted this person to this room and am now searching it methodically.
In the case they succeed in quitting: player complaint: I think this person logged out specifically to avoid having to sleep their health back after I tried to kill them, can you investigate?
These aren't reliable ways to make someone dead.
These are just as reliable as any other class in the game, particularly when it comes to you pointing out a mechanic that is blatantly discussed as ooc abuse. This is a reliable way of pointing out the case used as an example would be a case where you can set things up to react realistically, or insure that staff is aware of that situation. Bash, charge, and a buddy with subdue are the only things more reliable than this, as noted in a variety of other threads, they are also unreliable. So pointing this out as a failure of this particular skill is not really a good argument to make.
QuoteQuote
In the case they keep running: hunt;hunt;hunt;emote smirks at the very evident blood trail
They can run to a clan compound, or indoors public place, or just keep spamwalking indefinitely until they can log out, or...
Again, evading just long enough to log out and thus escape death is frowned upon, and always has been, and is actually one of the first staff-emails I have, is investigation of such an instance. People can indeed run into clan compounds. That happens with any guild using any of their opening moves. Kill delay is long enough for someone to instantly flee and spam walk to safety as well. So making this a problem with backstab is really your problem with delay in its entirety, not with a skill. Same with public indoors places, though the assassin has the advantage of being able to continue to stalk at this point in relative safety. Again, you seem to be equating this skill as the only one worth having the expectation of no escape; Every other class has to deal with people running away as well. It mostly comes to planning and circumstance and luck, just like...ta-da! Backstab.
QuoteQuote
In the case you have real poisons: All of the above becomes unnecessary because tablets either don't exist or are a death sentence themselves.
If you have serious poisons you're probably better off just using the kill command, which is one of the points at issue here.
Untrue, due to normal hits having a good chance of landing, particularly if they're unarmed, but backstab having an almost no-fail probability of delivering poison. If you land the backstab, the poison is pretty much landing, and when you're good at it, you're getting the two immediate attacks after anyway. This being one of the points at issue here is part of the entire reason why I'm arguing with you; I agreed, long ago, that many skills, including backstab, could do with fleshing out and making more neato. But the constant drone of 'This skill is useless' is entirely untrue, which is really what you're repeatedly bringing up despite your falling back to that same point we agreed on (we can change backstab), then reasserting the same thing (...because backstab doesn't work well.)
QuoteQuote
In the case you are patient: think I'll try again at this other place where I've been watching them hang out.
In the case you play an assassin: think Ha, I knew I'd find them here. They've fallen into my trap.
Irrelevant
Not irrelevant, because it's pointing out that the scenarios you've given are pointedly ignoring the trademark of the assassin, which is planning and execution. These are not random brawls you're getting into where you just -decide- to backstab someone for whatever reason. In any case where you've done any sort of planning and looked ahead, you'll find things going your way a lot more of the time...again, much like every other class in the game. Comparing assassin skills without implementing the gameplay that puts them to best use is directly trying to sway the data into the favor of 'warriors are better'.
If you want to play the warrior slipknife because you are more free to brawl, then play the warrior slipknife. But don't assert that just because you don't like stalking, hunting, and playing the role, that the role, or its skills, is not functioning well. I've been having plenty of success with it for a good long time, and you just aren't going to make much headway telling me that a multitude of years using these methods are untrue because you disagree. I've seen the results, and I'm plenty pleased with them.
Again, I think more of the problem lies in the state of poisons in the game than this particular skill. There is no reason to bar development on it, but there's no reason to try and convince everyone they shouldn't be using this, either.
Edit: Meh, I suck at GDB functions. Sue me.
It was a strawman argument. You claimed I said that backstab was not a viable way of killing people. This was not my argument. It was a much easier to refute argument. This is the very definition of a strawman.
Another strawman:
Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2016, 07:10:26 PM
If you want to play the warrior slipknife because you are more free to brawl, then play the warrior slipknife. But don't assert that just because you don't like stalking, hunting, and playing the role, that the role, or its skills, is not functioning well.
No one here has said they want to brawl with an assassin. No one has said they don't like stalking, hunting, etc.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2016, 07:10:26 PM
I've been having plenty of success with it for a good long time, and you just aren't going to make much headway telling me that a multitude of years using these methods are untrue because you disagree. I've seen the results, and I'm plenty pleased with them.
You tend to do this a lot in code threads and end up utterly derailing them with your Bill O'Reilly school of argument. It's starting to look like you're entering these discussions in bad faith in order to brag about how you can deal with all the legacy code. Instead of shoehorning that into every topic in code discussion, why don't you make your own thread for it?
QuoteIt was a strawman argument. You claimed I said that backstab was not a viable way of killing people. This was not my argument. It was a much easier to refute argument. This is the very definition of a strawman.
QuoteThat is what you said that I responded to, Yam. That is, through context, saying something is not really viable. And I went into my whole speech about it. That is not a strawman argument; a strawman is setting up an argument that was never made and fighting that argument. I'm making a direct response to what you've said here.
Quotevi·a·ble
ˈvīəb(ə)l/
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.
When you essentially say that using a skill is secondary to using the default command, you are calling one more viable than the other. This insistence that I'm somehow not responding to what you're saying is ridiculous.
QuoteNo one here has said they want to brawl with an assassin. No one has said they don't like stalking, hunting, etc.
Sure, that's one. You do, however, seem to be pushing towards this in all of your posts where you essentially accede the point that an assassin should be planning ahead of time, but if they don't and they use backstab instead of just getting into a straight up fight, they're less effective. In essence, you're using situations to illustrate your point when they're convenient, but then receding back to the normal situation when someone calls you on it. Yes. Planning and preparation wins in either scenario, the same as any other class. No, that same dependence does not make the skill more useless than any other skill in the same situation, such as bash, archery, or throw. So in this case, I feel pretty justified in making this particular strawman until you stop using the case of a straight up brawl to point out why you don't like backstab.
QuoteYou tend to do this a lot in code threads and end up utterly derailing them with your Bill O'Reilly school of argument. It's starting to look like you're entering these discussions in bad faith in order to brag about how you can deal with all the legacy code. Instead of shoehorning that into every topic in code discussion, why don't you make your own thread for it?
I'm sorry for playing the game a long time. I'm sorry for using experience in discussions about the game to try and point out why I'm refuting you when you say things that I disagree with. I'm sorry that you see it as bragging when I tell you that things tend to work out well when you modify play styles to acknowledge weaknesses and strengths of different classes, and that I know this because I've done it.
I'm unsure of what other thread I'd make to let you know that you're pigeonholing backstab into a place where it isn't. "Yam doesn't want me posting in the other thread because what I say is based off of me playing a long time with several successful characters utilizing it, so here is my my opinion on backstab"? No. Wait, shit! You're still going to take that as me saying I'm better than you because I've killed people with this skill.
I don't know what you're expecting, here. I'm saying what you're putting forth is misleading and ignoring that this is pretty on par with things in the game altogether, and you're getting rabid with me over it.
Edited to add: And if you're saying that it's viable, the same that I am, -why- do you keep leaping at me for my explanation of why I, too, think it is viable? That's...why I'm saying that you're calling it not viable. Because otherwise...we're agreeing, here.
Armaddict and Synthesis should have a code baby, and name it Backstab.
Necksnap.
So couple things in this thread: First on grind.
If you are looking to survive raptors and scrabs, its gotten alot better. If you are looking to branch parry, well gotten better too but then again it is actually always been amazingly easy in clans.
However, if you are looking to be the very best, like no one's been before...yup there is a grind. I'm not sure what people are talking about, but the changes were specifically meant to make people competant faster, not really help make badasses. If you are the only badass in your clan, you will still have nice long wait before anyone catches up to you. And why wouldn't it be this way?
Lets take a step back and think about it, whats the alternative? Everyone and their mothers hitting advanced with weapons and warrior brancing more often? I don't think people really want that. If you want to branch weapons, skill bumps is the fastest way, limited for 3 times a year. This is also going to change (worse/better) someday with guild changes.
As for whether or not clans are better than wildlife, I've gotten journeyman/advance with all weapons on a warrior with low wisdom in a clan with people that enjoy sparring and grinding up in less than an IC year. This was before before any sparring changes. Those people made logging in and grinding so much fun. In other clans, where sparring should take place regularly, I've just barely been able to hit journeyman with shield with several days play. Its a hit and miss thing in clans if you ask me, just depends who your clanmates are and what they are into doing.
As for assassin, I've mentioned before I think assassins should be more formidable standing toe to toe with warriors/rangers, the best combat class out of the box after warriors. Maybe even branching a weapon type. I like the ideas where backstab isn't about being a OHK move with alot of instant damage but instead just has reasonable damage which opens up the opportunity to kill your opponent outside a locked room. Some ideas have already been stated but:
Some protection against 'look assassin' would indeed be awesome when you backstab someone. Because more assassination attempts in public places with people watching would indeed be cool.
Some protection against crime code, because half-giant soldier groups roaming around the city in abundance hurt. Maybe fights you start with backstab don't actually attract attention for a short while depending on mastery.
One hit KO backstab really isn't fun for anyone, so if it is ever change I would like to see it changed for something that allows more RP and more heart pumping action for both the victim and assassin.
Quote from: Yam on August 24, 2016, 07:27:25 PM
It was a strawman argument. You claimed I said that backstab was not a viable way of killing people. This was not my argument. It was a much easier to refute argument. This is the very definition of a strawman.
Another strawman:
Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2016, 07:10:26 PM
If you want to play the warrior slipknife because you are more free to brawl, then play the warrior slipknife. But don't assert that just because you don't like stalking, hunting, and playing the role, that the role, or its skills, is not functioning well.
No one here has said they want to brawl with an assassin. No one has said they don't like stalking, hunting, etc.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2016, 07:10:26 PM
I've been having plenty of success with it for a good long time, and you just aren't going to make much headway telling me that a multitude of years using these methods are untrue because you disagree. I've seen the results, and I'm plenty pleased with them.
You tend to do this a lot in code threads and end up utterly derailing them with your Bill O'Reilly school of argument. It's starting to look like you're entering these discussions in bad faith in order to brag about how you can deal with all the legacy code. Instead of shoehorning that into every topic in code discussion, why don't you make your own thread for it?
Basically this post. It seems like Armaddict and Synthesis wanna prove their legacy code knowledge, which is cool and fine, but there are other people basically saying they aren't going to play Assassin, because they can get backstab, sneak, hide, pick, poison, and throw on other guild/subguild combinations. I find that rather sad, but OK, I guess Assassin is cool.
Quote from: Dresan on August 24, 2016, 08:27:21 PM
So couple things in this thread: First on grind.
If you are looking to survive raptors and scrabs, its gotten alot better. If you are looking to branch parry, well gotten better too but then again it is actually always been amazingly easy in clans.
However, if you are looking to be the very best, like no one's been before...yup there is a grind. I'm not sure what people are talking about, but the changes were specifically meant to make people competant faster, not really help make badasses. If you are the only badass in your clan, you will still have nice long wait before anyone catches up to you. And why wouldn't it be this way?
Lets take a step back and think about it, whats the alternative? Everyone and their mothers hitting advanced with weapons and warrior brancing more often? I don't think people really want that. If you want to branch weapons, skill bumps is the fastest way, limited for 3 times a year. This is also going to change (worse/better) someday with guild changes.
As for whether or not clans are better than wildlife, I've gotten journeyman/advance with all weapons on a warrior with low wisdom in a clan with people that enjoy sparring and grinding up in less than an IC year. This was before before any sparring changes. Those people made logging in and grinding so much fun. In other clans, where sparring should take place regularly, I've just barely been able to hit journeyman with shield with several days play. Its a hit and miss thing in clans if you ask me, just depends who your clanmates are and what they are into doing.
As for assassin, I've mentioned before I think assassins should be more formidable standing toe to toe with warriors/rangers, the best combat class out of the box after warriors. Maybe even branching a weapon type. I like the ideas where backstab isn't about being a OHK move with alot of instant damage but instead just has reasonable damage which opens up the opportunity to kill your opponent outside a locked room. Some ideas have already been stated but:
Some protection against 'look assassin' would indeed be awesome when you backstab someone. Because more assassination attempts in public places with people watching would indeed be cool.
Some protection against crime code, because half-giant soldier groups roaming around the city in abundance hurt. Maybe fights you start with backstab don't actually attract attention for a short while depending on mastery.
One hit KO backstab really isn't fun for anyone, so if it is ever change I would like to see it changed for something that allows more RP and more heart pumping action for both the victim and assassin.
Well put. I feel for some reason Armaddict and Synthesis (and others) think I and others are advocating for Backstab to OHK more. It couldn't be further from the truth. If you look in the OP, it states other debilitating effects Backstab could have besides a OHK, which should only be a final resort, a choice.
OHK isn't fun for the Assassin. It isn't fun for the Victim. So let's add more nuance. How do we do that? I guess we have to change stuff guys...
It's been a while since I played someone with charge or any semblance of skill at bash, do they impose a delay when successful? Like, after you successfully charge someone do you have to wait 15 seconds to start attacking again?
Quote from: lostinspace on August 24, 2016, 08:48:51 PM
It's been a while since I played someone with charge or any semblance of skill at bash, do they impose a delay when successful? Like, after you successfully charge someone do you have to wait 15 seconds to start attacking again?
According to experience and the help files: yes.
Quote
Delay:
after (if success: opponent after)
That said, Help Backstab fails to tell you that there is a Delay After. I'm adding that to the improving the help files thread as we speak.
IIRC bash gives both the basher and the bashee a delay, though the basher/bashee still autoattacks.
Backstab is a little fuckier. There's a very long delay where you can't use any commands, but you also don't get to take all of your autoattacks like you seem to be able to do with bash/kick/disarm.
Also, though only tangentially related, it'd be nice if 'teach' were a more functional and useful command, and perhaps even a skill in and of itself. In relation to a skill like Backstab, or poison, the act of 'needing to fail' could be at least somewhat replaced by 'finding someone more experienced than me to teach me', which mirrors RL much closer.
While repairing instruments and fine art objects, for instance, I can and do experiment as I go. Figuring out how to sand things properly or chisel things properly on the go is fine, especially if i'm working on an already replaceable material. However, when I start dealing with incredibly toxic chemicals and stuff that can give me cancer...Yeah, usually time to look up the expert (my boss) and ask how to do it properly before I blow off my face.
Simultaneous to this, while RP'd learning and skill gains are a bit of a chore for Staff, I would hope that allowing this kind of behavior encourages RP rather than relying on skill grind (and therefore, lack of PC interaction in a meaningful way) which discourages meaningful RP.
Furthermore, that someone who is (master) in a skill can teach all walks of life, including people who are (advanced) and perhaps even people who are (master). Don't you think this would encourage a more supportive, RP centric environment? Even if someone needs to be pursued to deny teaching you, it creates an RP opportunity in and of itself, one that many novels and works of fiction and non-fiction are based on (The search for the mentor).
...I don't know where you got that impression.
I've given the disclaimer multiple times in the thread that I'm fine with skills being modified. Sometimes, in other threads, I've cited other conditions I'd like to be fulfilled prior to that, but not in this one.
In this case, all that I said that you seem to have a problem with is that I'm saying that backstab is indeed a useful tool in a useful toolbox that is very assassin-y. I'm not sure how this turned into 'You're just showing off code knowledge'. Every example given has been me showing you other skills that are available to be used in its current form, and none of that is...archaic, or out of reach, or weird to use. And the sideways comes when I think that you're kind of putting this skill, in particular, into a spotlight where you point out weaknesses that it has, but also shares with some other skills that you've cited as better alternatives. The only situation that I agree with you is in the case of no planning, no preparation...yeah, if you're just jumping out at a dude that you fully expect to give you a hard time, you should probably not risk the critical strike. But to say that that situation makes it a worthless skill is where I have this problem. I'm not citing secrets in the game. I'm not citing your newbishness. I just said, over and over again...it's useful...when you're playing an assassin.
This isn't 'legacy code knowledge'. That...doesn't even make sense with these particulars. This isn't some lost secret. This is purely a disagreement on it being useless or not, and there being some who say 'No, I've found it very useful in its current form' and others insisting 'No, I've never had it be useful and would rather not use it.' I'm not sure what makes your anecdotal evidence or take on it so much more pertinent that I can be referred to as a brick or being accused of bragging about code knowledge or being accused of purposely skewing the game to my benefit.
I'm not certain why me encouraging you to try adopting a different methodology in its use to see if it shines for you is such a heinous thing. But to sum it up for you, my position has remained constant throughout the thread: I'm fine with there being more to backstab, but I don't think it's useless as is, the same way I don't think the class as a whole is in a terrible spot because I have to avoid certain climb checks or go through a different training experience than the more direct fighting guilds.
I think through all the paragraphs of diatribe we are agreeing with each other, I just don't want to go through the effort of re-reading you say the same thing. I imagine you feel the same about my wordz. Less is more Armaddict!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/igR5863TALcSk/giphy.gif)
The backstab delay doesn't prevent autoattacks. It just prevents the 'before' command delay for skills like flee and kick.
I once rolled up my badass assassin into redstorm and backstabbed one of the alley npc's. My stab succeeded but then this fucker turns around and starts ripping me apart. But luckily I nick him for the final sliver of hp and he drops.
That's when I get the flee,flee,flee,flee resolution to my commands that I was furiously spamming into the delay queue.
Quote from: Dresan on August 24, 2016, 08:27:21 PM
So couple things in this thread: First on grind.
If you are looking to survive raptors and scrabs, its gotten alot better. If you are looking to branch parry, well gotten better too but then again it is actually always been amazingly easy in clans.
However, if you are looking to be the very best, like no one's been before...yup there is a grind. I'm not sure what people are talking about, but the changes were specifically meant to make people competant faster, not really help make badasses. If you are the only badass in your clan, you will still have nice long wait before anyone catches up to you. And why wouldn't it be this way?
Lets take a step back and think about it, whats the alternative? Everyone and their mothers hitting advanced with weapons and warrior brancing more often? I don't think people really want that. If you want to branch weapons, skill bumps is the fastest way, limited for 3 times a year. This is also going to change (worse/better) someday with guild changes.
As for whether or not clans are better than wildlife, I've gotten journeyman/advance with all weapons on a warrior with low wisdom in a clan with people that enjoy sparring and grinding up in less than an IC year. This was before before any sparring changes. Those people made logging in and grinding so much fun. In other clans, where sparring should take place regularly, I've just barely been able to hit journeyman with shield with several days play. Its a hit and miss thing in clans if you ask me, just depends who your clanmates are and what they are into doing.
As for assassin, I've mentioned before I think assassins should be more formidable standing toe to toe with warriors/rangers, the best combat class out of the box after warriors. Maybe even branching a weapon type. I like the ideas where backstab isn't about being a OHK move with alot of instant damage but instead just has reasonable damage which opens up the opportunity to kill your opponent outside a locked room. Some ideas have already been stated but:
Some protection against 'look assassin' would indeed be awesome when you backstab someone. Because more assassination attempts in public places with people watching would indeed be cool.
Some protection against crime code, because half-giant soldier groups roaming around the city in abundance hurt. Maybe fights you start with backstab don't actually attract attention for a short while depending on mastery.
One hit KO backstab really isn't fun for anyone, so if it is ever change I would like to see it changed for something that allows more RP and more heart pumping action for both the victim and assassin.
If you think it's "easy" to branch parry in a clan, I'm pretty sure your head would explode at how "easy" it is to branch it on the critter grind.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2016, 10:43:22 PM
Quote from: Dresan on August 24, 2016, 08:27:21 PM
So couple things in this thread: First on grind.
If you are looking to survive raptors and scrabs, its gotten alot better. If you are looking to branch parry, well gotten better too but then again it is actually always been amazingly easy in clans.
However, if you are looking to be the very best, like no one's been before...yup there is a grind. I'm not sure what people are talking about, but the changes were specifically meant to make people competant faster, not really help make badasses. If you are the only badass in your clan, you will still have nice long wait before anyone catches up to you. And why wouldn't it be this way?
Lets take a step back and think about it, whats the alternative? Everyone and their mothers hitting advanced with weapons and warrior brancing more often? I don't think people really want that. If you want to branch weapons, skill bumps is the fastest way, limited for 3 times a year. This is also going to change (worse/better) someday with guild changes.
As for whether or not clans are better than wildlife, I've gotten journeyman/advance with all weapons on a warrior with low wisdom in a clan with people that enjoy sparring and grinding up in less than an IC year. This was before before any sparring changes. Those people made logging in and grinding so much fun. In other clans, where sparring should take place regularly, I've just barely been able to hit journeyman with shield with several days play. Its a hit and miss thing in clans if you ask me, just depends who your clanmates are and what they are into doing.
As for assassin, I've mentioned before I think assassins should be more formidable standing toe to toe with warriors/rangers, the best combat class out of the box after warriors. Maybe even branching a weapon type. I like the ideas where backstab isn't about being a OHK move with alot of instant damage but instead just has reasonable damage which opens up the opportunity to kill your opponent outside a locked room. Some ideas have already been stated but:
Some protection against 'look assassin' would indeed be awesome when you backstab someone. Because more assassination attempts in public places with people watching would indeed be cool.
Some protection against crime code, because half-giant soldier groups roaming around the city in abundance hurt. Maybe fights you start with backstab don't actually attract attention for a short while depending on mastery.
One hit KO backstab really isn't fun for anyone, so if it is ever change I would like to see it changed for something that allows more RP and more heart pumping action for both the victim and assassin.
If you think it's "easy" to branch parry in a clan, I'm pretty sure your head would explode at how "easy" it is to branch it on the critter grind.
Ugh, I'm not even sure what thread this is, but one other thing, Synthesis, another change that (in my opinion) motivates people to not do the "critter grind" to "git gud" -- a few months ago, the vs. mob_kind hidden offensive/defensive flag was fixed. Hence, now if you skill up on scorpions, scrab, and stilt, you will be very good at fighting scorpions, scrab, and stilt, but not humanoids. Of course, parry, backstab, etc. are neutral to mob_type, but at least now there's a lot of motivation to either (a) join a sparring clan or (b) go to the rinth or (c) find a gith or (d) just be a hunter of non-men.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/xT5LMDd4SemsRKLMmA/200_s.gif)
Edit: Whatever.
My understanding is the 'offense vs speciific types' never existed. It was certain people (former 'trusted' staff) seeing something and thinking it was something that is not.
There is only one offense skill.
What Nessalin fixed/finished was another system that gives a slight bonus to offense if you've been fighting a certain thing. Its supposed to be a slight bonus, on top of your normal offense score. So if you are repeatedly hitting the heads of elves, you will probably find you do the same with scrabs/raptors/etc even if you've never fought them. The idea was to add some combat message to let you know you had an edge, but not sure if that will ever be added.
It's not offense vs. [creature type], it's slashing vs. [creature type], bludgeoning vs. [creature type], etc. That's my understanding.
Reiloth started this thread with some pretty cool ideas in mind. Reduction of the after delay timer on backstab, which makes the skill probably one of the most dangerous risk/reward skills in the game, I don't think anyone approves of the super-long after delay of backstab? Skimming I didn't see anyone who liked the delay. He also mentioned adding some new utility to the skill, which has the potential to be awesome, I would love it if an assassin was able to disable someone, making some kidnap/torture rp more viable than it currently is, I know there are code mechanics poison/spells that create effects similar or exactly like what I envision as a disable so maybe with the groundwork already in the game this is feasible.
This thread has sort of gone off the rails and become about how to "get gud" and when or when not to "rough circle."
It's always a good time for Ruff Circle.
I think the number of people who were anti-change to the skill was relatively small.
The only reason anything became remotely contentious was the statement being made or alluded to that this was a change needed because the current form was in essence either unusable or unwise...which are both kind of the same thing, really. This made people who use or have been using it to good effect disagree...because ya know, you tend to disagree with things that are said that are contrary to what you are putting to use in practice. If I went and told someone at a red light that their car didn't start, I'm sure they'd argue with me, too.
Altogether, once people started actually stating that they were plugging their ears and saying 'lalalala', the thread pretty much ended. When people start telling you your experiences don't count because you've got more of them, that's pretty much a shit move as far as reasonable discourse of skill analyzation.
But yes. If there was nothing else to change, taking the extra 4-5 seconds of delay off seems to be enough to alleviate most people's concern with the skill. The other things are neat, but unnecessary, but if we want to make it easier for me to kill your PCs reliably with an already powerful ambush, that's cool as well.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 25, 2016, 03:15:01 PM
The other things are neat, but unnecessary, but if we want to make it easier for me to kill your PCs reliably with an already powerful ambush, that's cool as well.
NDY, is that you?
I like backstab because it makes playing an assassin feel very different from playing another kind of combatant. I was not aware that backstabbing, disengaging, and backstabbing again was forbidden by staff. I like to RP circling around an opponent while someone else fights them directly, with my assassin unleashing occasional but powerful critical strikes, drawing back, and then moving in again. If my opponents do not like that I always figured they could change tactics and strike at me directly. I guess if staff really said not to do that, I'll stop, but I always liked the 'assassiny' feel of doing that vs. just straight combat.
In addition, I like the OP's suggestions because they would contribute even more to the variety between assassins and other combatants. Assassins should have the dirtiest tricks of all the combat classes, IMO.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 25, 2016, 06:09:06 PM
I like backstab because it makes playing an assassin feel very different from playing another kind of combatant. I was not aware that backstabbing, disengaging, and backstabbing again was forbidden by staff. I like to RP circling around an opponent while someone else fights them directly, with my assassin unleashing occasional but powerful critical strikes, drawing back, and then moving in again. If my opponents do not like that I always figured they could change tactics and strike at me directly. I guess if staff really said not to do that, I'll stop, but I always liked the 'assassiny' feel of doing that vs. just straight combat.
In addition, I like the OP's suggestions because they would contribute even more to the variety between assassins and other combatants. Assassins should have the dirtiest tricks of all the combat classes, IMO.
And, as one of the classes with a skill removed/altered (Trap), it'd be cool to perhaps develop a sort of 'off-balance' move that temporarily bypasses parry. Something that gives an Assassin a temporary edge in combat, but a short-lived one (Sort of a blend of kick and anti-parry, if that makes sense).
I never think an Assassin should be toe to toe in combat against a Warrior -- They should just have means to evade combat once in it, and employ 'dirty tricks' that make them a pain in the ass to fight. Tricky, but not 'strong' if that makes sense. Their utility should always remain in the realm of stealth, and combat/conditions arranged on their terms.
<Derail, but in line with some things that have been discussed>
Have we ever gotten a definitive yes or no on whether or not trap would come back? With some expansion on what it was, that'd be a great thing for assassins to have again.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 25, 2016, 06:46:22 PM
<Derail, but in line with some things that have been discussed>
Have we ever gotten a definitive yes or no on whether or not trap would come back? With some expansion on what it was, that'd be a great thing for assassins to have again.
I think trip lines with swinging spiked logs, or other crude traps like a crossbow triggered to a door or a tree snare would be neat. Maybe not like OMG EXPLOSIONS but something you could dodge or that might miss or simply not function every time. Wisdom and agility rolls, not exactly lethal, can be poisoned. Might be a bit cumbersome to put together though.
Yeah assassins never got anything to replace it with :(
Beethoven you are correct. However, its supposed to be a small bonus to offense, not something significant. But of course, this is just my understanding as well.
Again, one hit kills, not so great. But more utility opening up RP opportunities for everyone involved has the potential to have an enjoyable scene. This doesn't necessarily mean it will be easier to kill someone but certainly more fun trying.
As for trap...welll if rangers got flaming arrows then there is only one thing to give assassins.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/00/b2/b7/00b2b7fa1f0f7f59bb50f006cc953534.jpg)
Quote from: Reiloth on August 25, 2016, 06:38:52 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on August 25, 2016, 06:09:06 PM
I like backstab because it makes playing an assassin feel very different from playing another kind of combatant. I was not aware that backstabbing, disengaging, and backstabbing again was forbidden by staff. I like to RP circling around an opponent while someone else fights them directly, with my assassin unleashing occasional but powerful critical strikes, drawing back, and then moving in again. If my opponents do not like that I always figured they could change tactics and strike at me directly. I guess if staff really said not to do that, I'll stop, but I always liked the 'assassiny' feel of doing that vs. just straight combat.
In addition, I like the OP's suggestions because they would contribute even more to the variety between assassins and other combatants. Assassins should have the dirtiest tricks of all the combat classes, IMO.
And, as one of the classes with a skill removed/altered (Trap), it'd be cool to perhaps develop a sort of 'off-balance' move that temporarily bypasses parry. Something that gives an Assassin a temporary edge in combat, but a short-lived one (Sort of a blend of kick and anti-parry, if that makes sense).
I never think an Assassin should be toe to toe in combat against a Warrior -- They should just have means to evade combat once in it, and employ 'dirty tricks' that make them a pain in the ass to fight. Tricky, but not 'strong' if that makes sense. Their utility should always remain in the realm of stealth, and combat/conditions arranged on their terms.
Blind them with your, POCKET SAND, SHASHASHA
Didn't read the whole thread.
The thing about backstab that the OP fails to account for is that the assassin gets to choose when to use it. The whole point is that it is a surprise attack, so if you use it while the person is ready to be attacked (standing, armored, weapons out, full health). Then it should be a dangerous and risky prospect. Yes most fighting main classes are going to be able to outfight an assassin in 1v1 and therefore if you backstab one and succeed and have poisoned weapons, but can't do any damage after the backstab you choose a bad time to backstab.
Now if you are patient, plan your attack and hit them when they're really not ready (resting, weapons away, hurt or low on stam) You're not only going to do backstab damage, but your initial rounds of combat are probably going to be devastating as well, even a maxxed warrior is probably going to be in trouble from a resting position unarmed when being attacked by a fully armed assassin. Sure then they can stand up and draw their weapons, but by then the delay is probably passed and you've done some significant damage to them, if not out right killed them.
Best case scenario? You hit them when there is more or less nothing they can do.
Backstab seems like a terrible skill, but only when taken out of context. When put in context of planning your attack, hitting from stealth and taking advantage of a surprise attack, it is border op already. Think about it, a stealth non-backstab attack done when someone is totally unprepared is already pretty devastating.
Training backstab is no fun to be sure, but that is in part to limit the number of people who can do it because it is kind of like steal in that there isn't a ton of in game reasonable ways you can avoid this if someone is prepared and patient enough.
I hate to give the it's probably best as it is, but to be honest? I'd sooner see the skill nerfed and assassins reworked than buffed.
Until you miss your Backstab and your opening attacks, and are basically sitting there like a wet willy for 10 seconds.
If you read the thread, we've been trying to come up with creative solutions to the 'Backstab even if successful at 100% leads to a OHK, which isn't fun for anyone'.
No one has said Backstab is broken.
Training Backstab is a whole other story. To become a Backstab Master, you must fail at backstabbing people! Said no Assassin in history.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 26, 2016, 11:56:12 AM
Until you miss your Backstab and your opening attacks, and are basically sitting there like a wet willy for 10 seconds.
If this happens at all, I think it's a bug. Perhaps some sort of timing error or something. The only reason something like this would be implemented, would be to prevent attackers from fleeing immediately after a backstab.
If you miss your backstab and your opening attacks, you probably shouldn't have been backstabbing that thing in the first place, dude.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 26, 2016, 12:41:33 PM
If you miss your backstab and your opening attacks, you probably shouldn't have been backstabbing that thing in the first place, dude.
How does one improve in Backstab then, Code Guru?
backstab turaal
I'm a little surprised with how suddenly-comfortable a couple of you have gotten with snark just because someone is strongly positioned elsewhere than you.
However, I also think the 'Backstab is fine as is or isn't fine at all' argument has been driven into the dirt. If someone reads the thread, they'll see plenty of arguments for and against the viability of backstab as a skill in its current state.
So instead, to kind of help things out, I'll ask for a a piece at a time:
Is it catastrophic for anyone if the backstab delay were to be reduced, even if it's not to the degree of kill?
-My position is that it's far from catastrophic for this particular piece of the idea to come to be. My opinion is that it's high risk for a reason, to demonstrate that it is a maneuver that you use to achieve only the goal of what it does, which is grants a large spike of damage, hopefully to the point that they can't hide somewhere and heal without the risk taken of 'sleeping it off'. If this latter mechanic were changed dynamically, the former would become obsolete. I think it would fundamentally change the methods that make assassins truly effective, and thus kind of...allow people to not figure out that it's supposed to be used more situationally than consistently, much like any other non-warrior method of killing. But I do not think that part of it would be terrible to modify, nor even entirely make situations different aside from establishing that emphasis; that seems to be the main purpose of the delay, is to make sure you know that you should be careful using it.
-I think I have this position purely because I did indeed die with it enough times to figure out some bad cases to use it. It's not for going above your skill level on npc's; they don't run away, they'll just thwack you until they die, so before you use it on an npc, you have to be able to win the brawl anyway. It's not for going against someone you're not sure you can beat who's tromping around with weapons out, because they're already expecting trouble and to capitalize on your exposure, even if this still happens rarely and often by accident in my experience. Thus, part of it -is- the whole veteranhood thing...which I happen to be a fan of, but can understand that the current trend in game-thought is that everyone should be dying less. I have about 50 characters that lasted less than 2 days (or some other similarly significant, but estimated number).
With me holding that position, the delay is the one part where I can feel pretty -good- about giving ground on it, albeit perhaps not to the degree of kill, but at least to make it -less- risky for those testing situations where it's good or bad to use.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 26, 2016, 02:02:24 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 26, 2016, 12:41:33 PM
If you miss your backstab and your opening attacks, you probably shouldn't have been backstabbing that thing in the first place, dude.
How does one improve in Backstab then, Code Guru?
I thought we were talking about actual PK attempts, not training.
The two scenarios are completely different.
I don't see why backstab should be much more of a risk than just kill.
Maybe the delay for backstab should be similar to the kill command?
problem: one assassin has a hard time achieving a OHK with backstab.
solution: multiple assassins.
Quote from: 650Booger on August 27, 2016, 01:46:02 AM
problem: one assassin has a hard time achieving a OHK with backstab.
solution: multiple assassins.
Not really the point of the thread but sure.
Quote from: Jingo on August 26, 2016, 08:03:25 PM
I don't see why backstab should be much more of a risk than just kill.
Maybe the delay for backstab should be similar to the kill command?
But it is, isn't it? Sometimes there is an agonizing delay after using the kill command. So I'm wondering if it's particular to backstab and not just initiating combat. And for some reason we notice it for backstab more than we notice it for kill.
There is most definitely a longer delay for backstab. I'm not certain if it's particularly longer for a failed one than a successful one (to be honest, I don't really measure the delays because as noted, I learned to not do it in particular situations, and with assassins not having other combat skills, there wasn't really any reason to 'queue something up' and see how long it took before it came through).
While I do not think this is particularly crippling for what I use backstab for, it is also, again, the easiest place to start making a shift that would perhaps improve it's accessibility to people who don't want to take the risk of experimenting (and losing characters in the process).
While the delay varies with all those weird ticks that the MUD counts time with, but in some situations a backstab delay can last as long as 14 seconds. That's 14 seconds of being unable to flee, change weapons, draw new ones if disarmed, hide/leave after OHK. So let's say you did OHK someone. You're still standing there for 14 seconds, probably parrying blows of the militia that ran into the room if you got wanted. Even if your original victim has died on the very first round. It's not 'always' this long. Again, the mud counts time in ticks, not actual time. But that's the longest one I've ever had and learned to always assume it'll be this long.
Please, dont think that I'm complaining. I find backstab to be perfectly fine. I'm just making sure people have some information to operate with in their discussion, instead of talking blind.
Quote from: Dar on August 27, 2016, 04:41:16 PM
While the delay varies with all those weird ticks that the MUD counts time with, but in some situations a backstab delay can last as long as 14 seconds. That's 14 seconds of being unable to flee, change weapons, draw new ones if disarmed, hide/leave after OHK. So let's say you did OHK someone. You're still standing there for 14 seconds, probably parrying blows of the militia that ran into the room if you got wanted. Even if your original victim has died on the very first round. It's not 'always' this long. Again, the mud counts time in ticks, not actual time. But that's the longest one I've ever had and learned to always assume it'll be this long.
Please, dont think that I'm complaining. I find backstab to be perfectly fine. I'm just making sure people have some information to operate with in their discussion, instead of talking blind.
Also to add to this (in case it isn't clear):
Even during the 'delay' you will continue to fight and even take advantage of the free attack on a flee (if the opponent flees). So you aren't completely vulnerable.
There's also a lag at the beginning too, before you backstab.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2016, 05:06:50 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 24, 2016, 03:27:38 PM
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.
It's not tinfoil hats.
Riev is sitting at 10 days played with jman whatever.
I hit jman whatever in 2 days, and now I'm at 4 and most likely damn near advanced already.
Sparring. Is. Trash.
Weapon skill to (advanced) in 5 days 3 hours (1 RL month...aged 2 months 157 days in-game).
Nothing but starting-location skill bump.
Good wisdom.
Critter grind.
Sparring. Is. Trash.
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.
Quote from: Synthesis on September 11, 2016, 01:10:57 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2016, 05:06:50 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 24, 2016, 03:27:38 PM
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.
It's not tinfoil hats.
Riev is sitting at 10 days played with jman whatever.
I hit jman whatever in 2 days, and now I'm at 4 and most likely damn near advanced already.
Sparring. Is. Trash.
Weapon skill to (advanced) in 5 days 3 hours.
Nothing but starting-location skill bump.
Good wisdom.
Critter grind.
Sparring. Is. Trash.
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.
To be fair, the code changes make it possible to achieve advanced weapon skills from sparring, whereas before it was impossible regardless of playtime.
So progress.
Quote from: Narf on September 11, 2016, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 11, 2016, 01:10:57 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2016, 05:06:50 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 24, 2016, 03:27:38 PM
A lot of this is tinfoil hats in theory, because Staff is actively changing the code surrounding this stuff, and are probably giggling behind the Emerald Curtain.
It's not tinfoil hats.
Riev is sitting at 10 days played with jman whatever.
I hit jman whatever in 2 days, and now I'm at 4 and most likely damn near advanced already.
Sparring. Is. Trash.
Weapon skill to (advanced) in 5 days 3 hours.
Nothing but starting-location skill bump.
Good wisdom.
Critter grind.
Sparring. Is. Trash.
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.
To be fair, the code changes make it possible to achieve advanced weapon skills from sparring, whereas before it was impossible regardless of playtime.
So progress.
I've already stated previously that it's possible under exactly the right circumstances. It was always possible under exactly the right circumstances, regardless of recent code changes. "Exactly the right circumstances" is virtually impossible to achieve unless a) one party in the sparring match is defensively very skilled; b) both parties OOCly know exactly what needs to be done for the other person to train effectively; and c) the very skilled person is willing to stand there and be a sparring dummy. I've only been in one clan, ever, where they got it right.
But...whatever. Fine. Somebody show me how they legitimately got from (apprentice) to (advanced) in a weapon skill in 5 days by sparring alone, and maybe I'll change my tune.
Weapon skill to (advanced) in 5 days 3 hours (1 RL month...aged 2 months 157 days in-game).
that's a point every 2.46 hours of gameplay? If after a month like that, the chara goes one hit dead from some Mek out of nowhere, I'm either on a break for half a year, or playing a merchant.
Update:
Almost 20days played, still not journeyman.
Character is still effective, but its kind of disheartening to never see it move, knowing I COULD make it better but it wouldn't make sense for the character and be completely meta.
Quote from: Riev on September 11, 2016, 02:49:38 PM
Update:
Almost 20days played, still not journeyman.
Character is still effective, but its kind of disheartening to never see it move, knowing I COULD make it better but it wouldn't make sense for the character and be completely meta.
My feelings exactly. 12 days played, 3 weapon skills on apprentice, almost every other skill mastered. I know my character is useful, and I hate being meta in that I -want- to get those sweet skillups... Ugh, whole situation is frustrating
Quote from: Synthesis on September 11, 2016, 01:10:57 PM
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.
We're totally playing the same game. Except I clicked multiplayer instead of solo campaign ;D
Regardless any of that. For theoretical discussion of the problems and burdens of skill practice. Synthesis examples stand firm and do have a point.
Fact of the matter is that after many years of gameplay, I really really really feel like I cant be fucked to skill grind again. Even if my particular fancy is that I'd like to have a skilled character. If this situation leads to a good player choosing not to play, or to prefer roles that do not need skills what so ever, then it is a problem. Because then we have people who arent really all that interested in quality of roleplay, but are willing to npc grind to get their powerz on, in positions which eventually become influencial enough to really need a good roleplayer there.
Quote from: Dar on September 11, 2016, 05:35:09 PM
Regardless any of that. For theoretical discussion of the problems and burdens of skill practice. Synthesis examples stand firm and do have a point.
Fact of the matter is that after many years of gameplay, I really really really feel like I cant be fucked to skill grind again. Even if my particular fancy is that I'd like to have a skilled character. If this situation leads to a good player choosing not to play, or to prefer roles that do not need skills what so ever, then it is a problem. Because then we have people who arent really all that interested in quality of roleplay, but are willing to npc grind to get their powerz on, in positions which eventually become influencial enough to really need a good roleplayer there.
If "quality of your roleplay" requires having your coded skills set to j-man or higher, then there's a bigger problem than just the skill grind. I have rarely - if ever - felt a need to express my character's existence through the sum of her coded skills. My meanest nastiest fugliest scariest character, a Red Fang, was a ranger with "above average" wisdom who, at 30 days played, still hadn't yet branched parry and had many of her "masterable" skills still at jman.
I'm not a great roleplayer but I know for damned sure that if you have to have your skills at jman or higher just in order to play your character's role, then you're doing something wrong.
Quote from: Majikal on September 11, 2016, 04:13:18 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 11, 2016, 01:10:57 PM
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.
We're totally playing the same game. Except I clicked multiplayer instead of solo campaign ;D
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/supa-hot-fire.gif)
Quote from: Lizzie on September 11, 2016, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: Dar on September 11, 2016, 05:35:09 PM
Regardless any of that. For theoretical discussion of the problems and burdens of skill practice. Synthesis examples stand firm and do have a point.
Fact of the matter is that after many years of gameplay, I really really really feel like I cant be fucked to skill grind again. Even if my particular fancy is that I'd like to have a skilled character. If this situation leads to a good player choosing not to play, or to prefer roles that do not need skills what so ever, then it is a problem. Because then we have people who arent really all that interested in quality of roleplay, but are willing to npc grind to get their powerz on, in positions which eventually become influencial enough to really need a good roleplayer there.
If "quality of your roleplay" requires having your coded skills set to j-man or higher, then there's a bigger problem than just the skill grind. I have rarely - if ever - felt a need to express my character's existence through the sum of her coded skills. My meanest nastiest fugliest scariest character, a Red Fang, was a ranger with "above average" wisdom who, at 30 days played, still hadn't yet branched parry and had many of her "masterable" skills still at jman.
I'm not a great roleplayer but I know for damned sure that if you have to have your skills at jman or higher just in order to play your character's role, then you're doing something wrong.
My RP isn't your RP, don't denigrate other people's RP, etc etc.
I've honestly had issues with roles numerous times, where I felt that a big aspect of their role is being proficient in combat, or subduing, or being a great archer, etc etc.
When it comes to combat, the idea that you never see these four skills raise is very disheartening. I don't care if YOU are in your ivory tower of RP, but I am playing a MUD where not having the right amount of skill leads to needless death.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 11, 2016, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: Dar on September 11, 2016, 05:35:09 PM
Regardless any of that. For theoretical discussion of the problems and burdens of skill practice. Synthesis examples stand firm and do have a point.
Fact of the matter is that after many years of gameplay, I really really really feel like I cant be fucked to skill grind again. Even if my particular fancy is that I'd like to have a skilled character. If this situation leads to a good player choosing not to play, or to prefer roles that do not need skills what so ever, then it is a problem. Because then we have people who arent really all that interested in quality of roleplay, but are willing to npc grind to get their powerz on, in positions which eventually become influencial enough to really need a good roleplayer there.
If "quality of your roleplay" requires having your coded skills set to j-man or higher, then there's a bigger problem than just the skill grind. I have rarely - if ever - felt a need to express my character's existence through the sum of her coded skills. My meanest nastiest fugliest scariest character, a Red Fang, was a ranger with "above average" wisdom who, at 30 days played, still hadn't yet branched parry and had many of her "masterable" skills still at jman.
I'm not a great roleplayer but I know for damned sure that if you have to have your skills at jman or higher just in order to play your character's role, then you're doing something wrong.
Lizzie. Please. I was the player of the Red Fang, whom along with help of one other, created the Red Fang camp in the first place. You know that collection of tents in the Canyons of Waste before it became a coded camp? Yeaaaah. And truth be said that character was even less skilled then what you're describing. While at the same time being chased by SLK, Salarr, both templarates, and the gemmed. At the time when lifespan of a Red Fang was counted in hours, not days, or weeks. Playing that chara was an absolute blast. While your character was great. You were part of the tribe that had a ... few other members who were a 'lot' more skilled then you are codedly.
Fact of the matter is that a lot of roles involve having skills. It shouldnt be shameful to say that you need skills to perform a certain role. Please do not make it shameful. And if you prefer to do so, then do so in a thread about roleplaying, instead of a thread revolving around skill progression in the "code discussion" section.
PS: I actually dont even remember what this thread was about. I think neither the rp elitism, or how to progress skills was the original point? I should probably actually read the OP
Do so at your own risk. The Code Guru is watchful.
Critter-grinding isn't necessarily bad RP if your PC is a hunter.
Also, listen. The critter-grind does not require vast amounts of time. I got to (advanced) by spending maybe 2 hours per IC day doing it. The rest of the time was just farting around doing miscellaneous shit.
If you think "critter grind" means you have to sit out in the desert and spamkill everything in sight, you're doing it wrong...until you reach the plateau where you literally have to spamkill everything in sight just to get a single failure.
You can spend more time doing social RP as a successful critter-grinder than you can as a Bynner, sadly.
As I have no interest in spreading the idea that one must max their skills to be meaningful/participate, I'm not going to offer details. However, I will say that I'm reading a lot of things that are in practice, absolutely wrong here.
I've had a weapon at advanced skill with 0 bumps on the pc in 2 days played. It grew as fast as parry, or a little faster. Good wisdom on that PC.
Post combat changes, without an explicit intent of achieving that level of weapon skill, just being in a clan and doing its thing(gains from 90% sparring), I had a pc decently into jman in 2 days played. Above average or good, I think wisdom without bringing up his logs. The sparring changes are real, and work as described.
I'm not your typical arm player for a few reasons, but yeah. When I am the am the one saying focus on character, not the skills so hard, you done fucked up. When you roll a pc, start doing shit. Don't hide in a corner and try to emerge max skills and be important.
Though, I do wish staff would let us contribute to the guild changes upcoming: paper and reality are usually vastly different.
Quote from: Kryos on September 12, 2016, 06:21:22 AM
Though, I do wish staff would let us contribute to the guild changes upcoming: paper and reality are usually vastly different.
What I think many game communities have, that Armageddon does not, is a 'testing community'. A group of players who the Staff trust to try out big changes, and give them real time feedback. While Staff are too players, so they have valuable insight from both sides of the pond, expanding that pond to a larger group (Say 10 people), trying out changes on the test port, and tweaking from there would probably help bridge the gap between paper and reality.
I don't think Staff have missed their mark often (Though one might mention Armageddon Reborn, despite it being my wish that still happened). The subguild changes have mostly been great, but the Magick subguilds leave much to be desired in most instances. It's a well-intentioned change that I think could have benefitted from some real-time playtesting, by the playerbase.
I've seen Staff much more willing to adjust on the fly now, more than ever before -- A good recent example would be the Banking changes. They were rolled out in one version, there was a discussion with the playerbase, and adjustments were made that presented a compromise. I think with large changes, like foundational changes such as sub-guilds and guilds, opinions will vary wildly, and actual playthrough knowledge will be scarce. The difference between a Warrior being OP compared to an Assassin, or the other way around, will be a very narrow margin. While this isn't a game about balance (It isn't a MMORPG with party gathering and question marks over people's heads), there needs to be a trade off of strengths and weaknesses that I imagine will be very difficult to get into the sweet spot.
I mean to be perfectly honest, the guild changes can either really turn people on, or really turn people off. So as the people who are going to play those choices, I think we have a good case in being involved with how they turn out. Elsewise, you might find people are so utterly turned off that they start playing another game (!!!). Changing foundation stones can really polarize people. ArmageddonMUD has mostly avoided this by not making these sorts of drastic changes for most of its existence -- But to change almost all of the core foundational 'classes/guilds/subguilds' within a year or two is radical to say the least. Exciting on one hand, and sort of intimidating and inducing skepticism on the other.
For all I know, though, Staff already has play-testers and hasn't said anything about it, and the play-testers haven't said anything about it because of a NDA (heh). So, could be a moot point.
Quote from: Majikal on September 11, 2016, 04:13:18 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 11, 2016, 01:10:57 PM
Sorry, guys...this is the game we're all playing. I don't think it should be this way, but it is what it is until Staff decide to fix it.
We're totally playing the same game. Except I clicked multiplayer instead of solo campaign ;D
Sorry...you got this in before I pointed out that you can spend more time with other PCs doing non-training RP as a critter-grinder than you can in a clan. And let's be honest here: while technically you are interacting with other PCs while sparring in the Byn...nobody really enjoys it.
Again...critter-grinding does not require you to be solo or require you to spend all your time doing it. There are mobs within 10-15 leagues of Allanak that will let you critter-grind all the way up to (master) weapon skills. If you -really- put your mind to it and get in a hurry, you can finish up your critter-grind training in 5-10 minutes, which leaves 80-85 minutes of the rest of the day to do whatever the hell else you want to do, with other PCs.
Quote from: Kryos on September 12, 2016, 06:21:22 AM
As I have no interest in spreading the idea that one must max their skills to be meaningful/participate, I'm not going to offer details. However, I will say that I'm reading a lot of things that are in practice, absolutely wrong here.
Nobody is spreading that idea. If you got that impression...well...it's wrong.
Quote from: Kryos on September 12, 2016, 06:21:22 AM
I've had a weapon at advanced skill with 0 bumps on the pc in 2 days played. It grew as fast as parry, or a little faster. Good wisdom on that PC.
I never said my time was the fastest possible. I said that time would be impossible in a clan, by sparring. Did you achieve that time in a clan or by sparring only other PCs? I highly doubt it. If you did, there are only a few possibilities: a) you were in a clan of elves; b) you were in a clan where one PC already "got gud" on the critter grind; or c) there were magick buffs involved.
Quote from: Kryos on September 12, 2016, 06:21:22 AM
Post combat changes, without an explicit intent of achieving that level of weapon skill, just being in a clan and doing its thing(gains from 90% sparring), I had a pc decently into jman in 2 days played. Above average or good, I think wisdom without bringing up his logs. The sparring changes are real, and work as described.
Getting to jman in 2 days played, in a clan, is not a problem if you use "one weird trick!" Low-mid jman is where the sparring plateau phase hits. There is a vast world of difference between low-mid jman and master, both in terms of offense and defense. I'm talking about getting to high advanced or master. Again: show me where anyone has gotten to high advanced or master solely by sparring other PCs. Nobody in this thread has made that claim (except maybe Delirium? I'm not going to scroll back and check).
Quote from: Kryos on September 12, 2016, 06:21:22 AM
I'm not your typical arm player for a few reasons, but yeah. When I am the am the one saying focus on character, not the skills so hard, you done fucked up. When you roll a pc, start doing shit. Don't hide in a corner and try to emerge max skills and be important.
Again, nobody said skills were the most important thing. In fact, if you critter-grind, you can spend A LOT LESS TIME worrying about your stupid skills, which frees you up to go and make deals and interact with people.
Synth, would you consider calling it something other than "critter-grind"?
The issue Synth is talking about, is exactly what I struggle with on the majority of my combat characters. Whether its Byn, Legion, AoD, whatever... I'm not playing a hunter. I shouldn't have to go out and hunt to get the skill and technique I need, when I'm supposed to be a soldier.
However, NOBODY has become a master in a soldiering clan. Its not impossible, its just never been done. I don't like feeling like I need to go out and fight NPCs just to get the skills I'm looking for. You can say "go find a master" but we all know its a cop-out.
Training by playing the solo-game is arguably more reliable (though sometimes all your favorite sparring partners have been skinned). Once you hit the plateau, getting those dodges becomes a time-consuming struggle.
Conversely, training by sparring requires that you have code-savvy partners who you share playtimes with, but if you are lucky enough to be in that situation, it is far superior, for several reasons. One of them being, of course, interaction, but even if you are fighting someone at a level equal to you, you end up see-sawing back and forth to learn from each other.
So the idea of it being pointless to learn from another PC is fallacious; and if they don't know how to spar correctly, then just teach them.
Obviously, that doesn't solve the problem of the empty clan, or the "master with a bunch of unskilled minions" scenario, but both of those are also solvable with some creativity and patience (and in the latter case, liberal use of the teach skill alongside lessons and sparring).
If you want to play the single-player skill-up, there's nothing technically wrong with that, and it's a fun break from having to play primarily social roles. But touting it as the only way to go is ignorant at best. Whether you hit master in 10 days played or 20, having fun while doing it is far more important than racing to the finish line in the least amount of time.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 12:34:28 PM
Conversely, training by sparring requires that you have code-savvy partners who you share playtimes with, but if you are lucky enough to be in that situation, it is far superior, for several reasons. One of them being, of course, interaction, but even if you are fighting someone at a level equal to you, you end up see-sawing back and forth to learn from each other.
Sparring, with code-savvy partners (of which I'm not one), who I share playtimes with, if I'm LUCKY to have that situation.
That's a lot of lineup for "this is also possible". When you can "do the same thing in five minutes and then go socialize", why would you choose a path that requires the fucking stars to align? I'm sorry, even as a veteran player, its just bullshit to ask that people reach some trifecta of perfection in a sparring partner, or else become a hunter to become a master swordsman. Simply put, its bullshit.
Synth's hyperbole about being able to indie train in 5-10 minutes is questionable at best. Especially at higher levels.
Would you rather be a no-name indie hunter who can kill bahamets and dies stupidly in obscurity, or would you rather build relationships and tell stories?
If you're having problems recruiting people or training them up to your level I feel bad for you son, but that's the role you chose and you can work on fixing at least part of that.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 12:57:17 PM
Synth's hyperbole about being able to indie train in 5-10 minutes is questionable at best. Especially at higher levels.
Its not hyperbole, because I DID it. I got Account Noted for it, but its possible.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 12:57:17 PM
Would you rather be a no-name indie hunter who can kill bahamets and dies stupidly in obscurity, or would you rather build relationships and tell stories?
I don't think it has to be one or the other in any way whatsoever, nor is anyone suggesting it is.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 12:57:17 PM
If you're having problems recruiting people or training them up to your level I feel bad for you son, but that's the role you chose and you can work on fixing at least part of that.
I've never had trouble "recruiting" people, or training them up. The problem is actively training for 10days played and not seeing the skill you're working on go past Apprentice (which is, coincidentally, where it started).
When I was in the Legions, I had to do some INCREDIBLY questionable shit to get my skills higher, and it required a Lunar Alignment for it to be done. I shouldn't require a particular PC, with a particular skillset, with similar playtimes and goals. Not when I KNOW there are ways to do it otherwise, in less time, with more social RP opportunities.
Sometimes I do wish we could discuss code in depth.
Not saying the system's perfect, I'm saying it's not as bad as Synth et all are saying it is. It can use further improvement, but if you're not seeing the needle move at all, then you need to adjust your own approach (and no, it doesn't require "critter grinding", but I can't exactly go into particulars). The solution is pretty realistic, but not immediately obvious.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 12:57:17 PM
Synth's hyperbole about being able to indie train in 5-10 minutes is questionable at best. Especially at higher levels.
Would you rather be a no-name indie hunter who can kill bahamets and dies stupidly in obscurity, or would you rather build relationships and tell stories?
If you're having problems recruiting people or training them up to your level I feel bad for you son, but that's the role you chose and you can work on fixing at least part of that.
It's not hyperbole.
All you need to skill up is being able to fail a single time. I don't know exactly how the timer, %gain, %chance-to-gain things work, exactly, but as long as you can at least get a fail, eventually you will get a skillgain.
The plateau phase is all about
not being able to generate that single fail that you need. I find it highly questionable whether you'd be able to generate those fails at advanced or above on a non-magick-buffed human, even at the highest levels of base D.
Once your base O/D gets insanely high, then yes...even the most uber critters around Allanak you'll need to kill three or four of them to generate a single failure, even with a weapon that you have zero skill in, which means it will take you longer than 5-10 minutes. However, to get one weapon skill to master...you'll still be getting "easy" fails, so you can pop out, get your fail, then go back home.
I'm going to tell you all how to train in a clan to maximum effect, since everyone is confused.
You -cannot- simply bang away at each other.
You have to set it up so that one person plays defense, and maximizes everything about their gear, encumbrance, status, etc. so that their defense is absolutely the best it can possibly be. This usually means stripping down to very light encumbrance and etwo'ing the weapon that you're the most skilled with. Use disengage as soon as the fight starts and -only- defend against the attacker.
Then one person has to play offense (this person will be the one getting trained). This person has to make sure that their offensive capability is absolutely the worst it can possibly be (without getting into the realm of code prohibiting you from generating a skillgain at all). Get your encumbrance to "heavy, but manageable." If you only want to train your weapon skill, ep it and don't use a secondary weapon. If you want to train etwo, etwo a weapon that you have zero skill in. If you want to train dual wield, 'es' a weapon and use no primary weapon (or ep a shield).
This works best if you're training while the black moon is up.
Even under those circumstances, I seriously doubt you'll be able to get to master training only on non-magick-buffed humanoids. PC agility + base D doesn't seem to get high enough to ever reliably counter PC weapon skill + base O at high levels. I am almost certain that parries and blocks do not count as skill failures for your weapon/style skill. Only a dodge will count. If you aren't getting dodges, you aren't failing.
That's... not exactly how I trained, and I hit master piercing weapons during a spar. So. Uh. I don't know what else to say, y'all.
Edit for clarification because geez you guys.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 02:04:11 PM
That's... not exactly how I trained, and I hit master during a spar. So. Uh. I don't know what else to say, y'all.
Who were you training against, and how long did it take?
Mundane human ranger/protector, 20 days played, neither of us were "buffed" and I didn't focus on getting in a training session every play session/hour.
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 02:21:12 PM
Mundane human ranger/protector, 20 days played, neither of us were "buffed" and I didn't focus on getting in a training session every play session/hour.
*shrug* You're clearly an exception to the rule, then. I still suspect there's more to the story, but you probably aren't going to divulge details that would ruin your case.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Fjr6v88OPk7U4/giphy.gif)
Ranger/Protector...
My specific gripe was weapon skills, and this combination wouldn't have the issue I'm talking about, due to skill levels in general.
If you're talking about what I THINK you're talking about, Delirium, that skill is known to go up with use, not just with misses. I was talking about weapon skills (and I'm sure Synthesis was too)
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 02:38:27 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Fjr6v88OPk7U4/giphy.gif)
Code guru strikes again!
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2016, 02:38:27 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Fjr6v88OPk7U4/giphy.gif)
You're literally the only one who apparently doesn't have a problem with what we're describing, and you think pointing that out is somehow worthy of mockery?
Get over yourself.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Turaal University, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on The Guild, and I have over 300 confirmed PKs. I am trained in poisons and I'm the top archer in the entire Known World. You are nothing to me but just another pair of boots. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before in the Known, mark my fucking cards. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of twinks on the Shadowboards and your PC is being traced right now so you better prepare for the PK, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your character. You're fucking ganked, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the codedly strong weapons and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of Armageddon, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.
Thread locked.