I know nobody wants to talk about this, but I really want to address it because I am very confused.
I saw:
Quote from: Talia on August 03, 2016, 04:38:52 PM
To point out the obvious: You don't play female PCs and so it's statistically less likely to happen directly to you and maybe also less likely to happen around you, if you're hanging out with mostly other dude PCs.
There was more to it, but this to me implies that female characters get harassed more than male characters, and my problem here is isn't that against the documents? I joined this game early on because I read the docs and was told that there is no gender discrimination in Zalanthas.
So I had this entire time been operating under the concept that some female characters drive male characters up the wall trying to get in their pants too, because to me any thing where it happens to a lot of X gender means it must be happening to Y as well if there is no discrimination.
Edit to Add: If this is in the wrong forum, can someone move it? I /feel/ like it deals with culture, but I may be hideously wrong.
I've always taken the "no gender discrimination" rule as "there are no gender-related limits on what jobs, roles, and positions one can hold in society." It doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction or sexuality.
Saying a man "hits like a girl" is not OK. A man hitting on every female PC he meets because he finds females attractive would, by the letter of the docs, be OK (though it would probably get tiresome and would eventually cross subjective lines).
Most PCs still follow fairly typical gender coding in their personalities and behavir, because PCs are played by people who generally are not that[i/] dedicated to playing at complete odds with their reality.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2016, 05:29:14 AM
I've always taken the "no gender discrimination" rule as "there are no gender-related limits on what jobs, roles, and positions one can hold in society." It doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction or sexuality.
Saying a man "hits like a girl" is not OK. A man hitting on every female PC he meets because he finds females attractive would, by the letter of the docs, be OK (though it would probably get tiresome and would eventually cross subjective lines).
Most PCs still follow fairly typical gender coding in their personalities and behavir, because PCs are played by people who generally are not that[i/] dedicated to playing at complete odds with their reality.
What makes that difficult for me to get is to me that hitting on is because of the discrimination in the culture. Men see women as people to have sex with because in previous cultures and even still some women did nothing but raise the children, please the husband, and generally do wife-y things. In armageddon women kill kryl and stuff sometimes all by themselves, and basically do all the things that a man does. So there isn't any of the what a woman does is raise children concept, so that sort of flirting feels wrong.
Without addressing the kind of shaky "The only reason men hit on women is to have kids" premise, sex is still pretty enjoyable for most people. Combine this with prevalent birth control and it lets people act on the desire to want to have sex with each other. Hence flirting.
As BadSkeelz had mentioned, I'd always figured the rule meant that your PC's limitations would not be judged by their gender, in-game. While it's true, from what I've seen, anyhow, that male PCs do most of the initiation of flirting, I think this is something that reflects on real-life circumstances. Usually, a man initiates a romantic action in a relationship between a male and a female.
The rule is there, however, so that if a female character decides to want to hit it up with a man and start the flirting themselves, there would be no discrimination against that. It wouldn't be considered out of the norm. Though it's up to the players to roleplay that, really.
My take on it: in Armageddon, both man and woman can be paid equally to put their lives at risk by riding out on fantastical monsters and killing dangerous creatures. In addition, both men and women can equally be considered obsessive if every conversation is generously peppered with sexual reference, sexual innuendo, sexual jokes, sexual descriptions, or if the character continually veers every discussion toward the topic of sex. The "locker room mentality" is no longer relegated exclusively to the male, now women can be pigs too.
That said - it doesn't mean both men and women are required to enjoy that kind of banter. It ALSO means that both men and women can equally enjoy deriding said pigs on their piggish behavior. Men no longer have to hide their disgust behind their testosterone in fear of being called sissies or "girly-girls" or whatever the latest derogative is for men who take offense to overt sexual behavior bordering on obsession in others.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 05:19:32 AM
There was more to it, but this to me implies that female characters get harassed more than male characters, and my problem here is isn't that against the documents? I joined this game early on because I read the docs and was told that there is no gender discrimination in Zalanthas.
So I had this entire time been operating under the concept that some female characters drive male characters up the wall trying to get in their pants too, because to me any thing where it happens to a lot of X gender means it must be happening to Y as well if there is no discrimination.
The whole, no gender discrimination, particularly in relation to sexual encounters, is still a tricky thing because Zalanthan PCs are still played by Earth Players.
By the docs, you are absolutely correct, it should be just as likely that there would be "horn dog" zalanthan female characters as males and it would be acceptable that all of these sex-seekers would hit on their own gender as well as the opposite gender. Similarly, male PCs would be just as likely to be reluctant to have sex as their female PC counterparts, leading to a surplus of female PCs seeking partners. That's where it starts to breakdown.
The players of male characters are less likely to find the attention of a female character off-putting, in fact more often finding it desirable. At the same time, players of female characters, unlike their male character counterparts, may be chasing same-sex relationships. The result is that the pool of male and female characters seeking a female partner is much larger then the pool of "available" female characters to be sought out. This creates the sense of harassment as any unattached female PC is going to have multiple folks pursuing them at any given time. I believe this is the gist of Talia's initial post.
On the opposite side, players of female characters that want to be "sex-driven", especially with the opposite sex, won't have much trouble finding a partner. Hard to be "harassing" when the other party is all to willing to join in.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 05:40:13 AM
What makes that difficult for me to get is to me that hitting on is because of the discrimination in the culture. Men see women as people to have sex with because in previous cultures and even still some women did nothing but raise the children, please the husband, and generally do wife-y things.
They don't see them as people to have sex with because <insert cultural nonsense>.
They see them as people to have sex with because getting your dick wet feels good and if you are attracted to women as a man....that is major driving force in your existence...usually.
Gay men see other men the same way a lot of the time. Been hit on by a ton of gay men both in-game and IRL.
Been with a lot of women who absolutely saw men as nothing but sausages to ride....both in-game and IRL.
I guess to sum up the entire thread:
Sex feels good, we are evolutionarily wired to seek it out to continue our existence, and so long as those two things are true, this is never going to change. That goes for in-game, and IRL.
/thread
(The only reason it might seem like women are hit on more in-game by men than any other category is PROBABLY because most men who play this game are straight. My interest in roleplaying gay sex isn't there and I can imagine it isn't there for most straight men. So the math works out that you have a lot of straight male players who don't want to roleplay gay sex, so instead, they look for straight sex....and that won't change...and it shouldn't.)
Here's a good example for you. I've played more than a few of these characters.
Amos is attracted to women. Amos really likes to have sex. Amos is also dominant in the bedroom and being submissive in the bedroom is a turnoff for him.
A+B=C.
He seeks out and wants women who are sexually submissive in the bedroom because he likes sex, and that's the kind of sex he is looking for.
This results in most of the sex he talks about fitting this category.
This also results in most of the women he talks about in a sexual manner as fitting this category.
This might result in the people around him thinking he is "sexist".
He isn't.
He isn't any more sexist than a gay man who is dominant in the bedroom talking about looking for little twink-men to get his rocks off on.
It is just seen as sexist because of our real-world bias towards looking for reasons to be offended....because being offended is fun.
I play straight male characters who are dominant in the bedroom. If I'm talking about sex, or women, it's probably going to sound like I'm a real-world sexist in the game if you are looking for that.
With that being said these same characters are pretty well known for hiring and working with very strong women that they NEVER HAVE SEX WITH or view as sexual beings.
Why? Because they aren't attracted to them.
They have specific types of women they are attracted to, so, they don't even view these strong women as sexual things. They view them the same way they view other men.
I like to think most people pick up on that.
Just an example for you from someone who actually plays some of the characters I'm sure other people have seen as "sexist".
They aren't sexist, I just have no interest in roleplaying being sexually attracted to things I'm not into.
Nobody is specifically doing anything wrong as long as they are playing to their characters. People should be sensitive to the fact that it can be very tedious playing a female character and being constantly sexualized even when you aren't trying to portray yourself that way. I know because I play both genders pretty much evenly. Keeping this in mind, people should continue to do what's IC for them, but maybe they should consider rolling up a crass female every now and then to give the men a taste of what it's like ;)
Have you guys watched the Starship Troopers movie? Now I'm not saying it's a good movie. I think it's an atrocity done to a wonderful book. But anyway. Nooot the point of this post.
For those who watched the movie, have you noticed the dynamic between male and female? Nobody in the movies are giving a shit about the gender. The Sargeant equally breaks bones of both men and women. The female are equally hard ass. They all shower together without any what so ever thought that they should be segregated. They are equal.
At the same time, there is still sexual innuendo, there is still flirtations, there is still sex. It's just since they are both equal, nobody is bothered by it overly much. Nor does anybody keeps a ledger, "Alright. I've slept with two women this month. I have to sleep with at least two men to keep the genders equal."
This is basically how I see Armageddon.
This thread is now for Starship Troopers. I've used more lines in-game from Starship Troopers than I probably should but will admit. (I really liked this movie.)
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I only ask one thing. Do your job. If you can't do your job, I'll kill you. Welcome to the Gortoks.
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Note to self. If I dont like a thread, or just bored - mention Starship Troopers.
Quote from: Dar on August 04, 2016, 11:25:47 AM
Note to self. If I dont like a thread, or just bored - mention Starship Troopers.
If there's one thing you can count on, it's that people will want to know more.
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Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 05:40:13 AM
[Most] Men see women as people to have sex with because
...most men are sexually attracted to women.
This has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles. When a single straight guy wants to put his penis in someone he'll find a woman and hit on her. When a single gay guy wants to put his penis in someone he'll find a man and hit on him. This is generally how you find out whether someone is open to the idea of having your penis in them for a bit.
I've never seen Starship Troopers.
People have never really hit on my characters en masse regardless of gender. Probably because they tend towards being butt ugly.
Quote from: lordcooper on August 04, 2016, 11:54:42 AM
I've never seen Starship Troopers.
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Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 05:40:13 AM
So there isn't any of the what a woman does is raise children concept, so that sort of flirting feels wrong.
If you think that men are hitting on you because they want you to raise their children, you're gonna have a bad time :-\
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 05:40:13 AM
So there isn't any of the what a woman does is raise children concept, so that sort of flirting feels wrong.
Also in-game, women would actually more often raise the children.
In fact in a world so obviously shattered and scarce with morality there is a very strong argument women would more often end up raising children alone than in the real world.
Men aren't required to be a part of "the child thing" after sex. That is the only part they are really needed for.
Once you get pregnant though, you are having a baby most likely one way or the other and in Zalanthas I can see you being there alone for the process a lot of the time instead of with a loving caring responsible father at your side to help you raise it.....because Zalanthas.
Not to mention mammal babies breast feed. We aren't exactly running down to the grocery store here to pick up some formula as a substitute in Zalanthas. If babies in Zalanthas live, it's almost always because a woman put a boob in their mouth. The woman is the vital part. Not the man.
So yeah....the idea women in Zalanthas wouldn't actually end up as being the ones to most often raise children and be seen as the ones who most often raise children as a result is probably not true.
It's probably exactly the opposite.
But, we don't look at it that way for OOC reasons related to people's OOC feelings, and that's fine. But pretending IC'ly it's not the reality is a bit too much willful blindness for me.
Generally, my male PCs only hit on women they find attractive. If you're a buxom woman, or your hair is straight and seems clean, and you don't mention anything about busted ass teeth or anything... hey go for it. If you're listed as decrepid, or stringy hair, or no chest... well. Unless my PC is into it, he doesn't care.
The ADMITTEDLY few female PCs I've played have never felt bothered by what flirting they received. Maybe I'm not an attractive woman, but I wasn't put off by it. I'm just not interested fully in actual RPing sex, so I just go through the motions in game.
I've DEFINITELY had a male PC that was hounded after by a domineering pretty young male. Always offering backrubs, or to do things for me to make things easier, excuses for touching, etc. As a straight male it was odd, but my PC at the time felt "If it gets me somewhere in life, I'll take a shot in the mouth"
Oh goody, one of these threads again.
Please keep it civil/be nice in here. Save your nastiness for the game!
My idea of the gender equality is that it is real. In body (besides the obvious organs and such), skill, intelligence and all that.
But socially, like any other aspect of the game or real life even. People are different in their thinking. I'm sure there will be someone who minds and complains if there is a man out there that thinks all women are inferior in game. And vice-versa if there was a woman that considered men to be inferiors - but it's a character's thought process. It's just the character. While it is obviously not true - it's what a person thinks and feels and that can't be stopped!
So then ... their actions too will be gender unequal.
Also. Flirting in the real world and IC can be a dangerous idea. While sometimes fun and games, it's sometimes difficult to admit to ourselves or to see at all when the fun and games are an illusion from true desire. -- it's the whole, I'm picking and choosing and keeping my options open. <- and this of course leads to people in game having mudsex frequently and with just about anyone. -- also out of game.
Which is fine. As long as people understand that their acting on desire is just that. Acting on desire and acting in general can be compared and I think are the same thing, but ... motives change. Results desired change.
----
it always bothered me to know there was a clan where the women were in charge in a gender equal world, until I realized people have different traditions. While everyone literally are equal. People make up rules to the world they live in. OOCly and in game.
Quote from: whitt on August 04, 2016, 08:40:09 AM
The players of male characters are less likely to find the attention of a female character off-putting, in fact more often finding it desirable. At the same time, players of female characters, unlike their male character counterparts, may be chasing same-sex relationships. The result is that the pool of male and female characters seeking a female partner is much larger then the pool of "available" female characters to be sought out. This creates the sense of harassment as any unattached female PC is going to have multiple folks pursuing them at any given time. I believe this is the gist of Talia's initial post.
On the opposite side, players of female characters that want to be "sex-driven", especially with the opposite sex, won't have much trouble finding a partner. Hard to be "harassing" when the other party is all to willing to join in.
That is not what I said. I don't think you're mischaracterizing or misinterpreting on purpose, I think you just have a different perspective than I do. Some of that is because you're male and I'm female, some of it is because I have seen things as a staffer that all players wouldn't necessarily see (only the ones involved in certain incidents).
Harassment and flirtation are not the same thing and shouldn't be conflated. The difference is consent. The same is true of sexual assault and sex; the difference is consent.
In Armageddon, actually, we don't see a lot of harassment behaviors that women IRL are subjected to daily. For example, street harassment (the kind where a woman is walking down the street and a man who is a stranger to her yells something like "hey baby show us your tits"). Or even "smile, girl!" I've never witnessed nor experienced that in Armageddon.
I also have rarely seen stalking types of harassment in Armageddon. At least not IC. (There have been some OOC incidences.)
We do see a lot of bar banter, "do you wanna go XYZ?" That's not what I would call harassment and I have rarely seen requests of that type be so persistent as to head into harassment territory. One great thing about the violent culture of Zalanthas is that my warrior chick can just legitimately threaten to beat/kill anyone who does this to her, and my silky merchant can threaten to have her friends beat/kill anyone who is harassing her. (Please Tek please please have someone tell my harsh warrior to "smile" soon. That would be FUN.)
Anyway, my point is that flirting is not harassment, unless it is actually harassment. And I don't think it happens that often, but that's not to say it couldn't. Carry on.
Sexual harassment isn't rape and there isn't a rule against it either regardless of it is a personal hot button issue for some people.
Quote from: Desertman on August 04, 2016, 02:13:34 PM
Sexual harassment isn't rape and there isn't a rule against it either regardless of it is a personal hot button issue for some people.
While that's technically correct in that we don't have a specific rule about sexual harassment, if the behavior of a player is making the environment OOCly hostile for others, that is certainly something staff could investigate and act on. We do see behavior of this type on occasion, where IC becomes OOC.
Arm is pretty good about both spectrums going to obnoxious levels with flirting. If one gender is more prevalent, chalk it up to demographics, but our players are pretty good about keeping things to the docs, for the most part. What some of you are not so good at is the art of seduction. I've heard some hilarious ones from female friends. Please, never change.
Quote from: Talia on August 04, 2016, 02:25:35 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 04, 2016, 02:13:34 PM
Sexual harassment isn't rape and there isn't a rule against it either regardless of it is a personal hot button issue for some people.
While that's technically correct in that we don't have a specific rule about sexual harassment, if the behavior of a player is making the environment OOCly hostile for others, that is certainly something staff could investigate and act on. We do see behavior of this type on occasion, where IC becomes OOC.
Then what I said stands as true and accurate.
What you are stating is that if someone's IC behavior somehow stretches into the OOC and starts creating dangerous and hostile OOC environments for other players behind their keyboards that is against the rules.
That goes for every single thing in the game, is not specifically related to sexual harassment in any form, and goes without saying.
Not that I don't think it's a good policy. Of course it is. I'm just making the distinction that someone cat-calling you in Armageddon, speaking sexually towards you, sexually harassing you in a rough and tumble bar, or otherwise just being dirty and nasty towards you verbally in a sexual manner is not grounds to submit a player complaint and rationally expect that player to get punished because you were uncomfortable. (Submit it anyways of course, but, have realistic expectations based on the stated rules.)
They aren't raping you. It isn't against the rules.
Now if they start to go full on OOC crazy mode on you and it is just completely over the top and they are creeping on you in an OOC manner...yeah...report that....they've went full nuts.
"Amos can't be sexually harassed, they wouldn't allow it. And if they are, why don't they just store or play in Tuluk or get a new job?"
--Tektrump
This is probably a very charged question but...
Is it not harassment if my character has made it very strongly apparent that they do not appreciate repeated remarks about how much the person would like to boink them, yet they continue to do so? I think it has even got so bad once that I actually OOCly asked them to stop. That is the kind of stuff that makes me think these things. The people that don't seem capable of hearing the word "No.". I might just start stabbing them with a tainted blade.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 03:28:11 PM
The people that don't seem capable of hearing the word "No.". I might just start stabbing them with a tainted blade.
This is exactly what you should do. If someone annoys you IC, stab the shit out of them. Pay a templar to toss them in the arena. Pay elves to shit in their bed. Kill their weaker friends. Fuck them over.
Is it not harassment if my character has made it very strongly apparent that they do not appreciate repeatedly being stabbed, yet they continue to do so?
As far as I understand (and hope), IC harassment is absolutely fine. I like it when my characters get harassed in any way, in pretty much any game. If x makes you OOCly uncomfortable then say so OOCly. If at all possible I'd try to cut it out (and assume most players here would too), but there's no obligation to do so and on the very rare occasion holding back would make no sense for my character whatsoever, I wouldn't.
I've statistically been flirted with more so by male characters than female characters, as a male character.
I actually think its kind of nice.
THAT MEANS I MAKE PRETTY CHARACTERS ;.;
Though I haven't ever seen out right harassment or what people were talking about with 'men say the darndest things behind a womans back'
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 03:28:11 PM
This is probably a very charged question but...
Is it not harassment if my character has made it very strongly apparent that they do not appreciate repeated remarks about how much the person would like to boink them, yet they continue to do so? I think it has even got so bad once that I actually OOCly asked them to stop. That is the kind of stuff that makes me think these things. The people that don't seem capable of hearing the word "No.". I might just start stabbing them with a tainted blade.
You shouldn't go OOC to ask them to stop unless they are doing something that violates the rules. That doesn't just go for this. That goes for everything. I've had people OOC me on several occasions for whatever reason that they didn't like what I was doing and that I should stop. (Never anything sexual.) Basically, they aren't staff, they don't make those decisions, and going OOC to try and act as if they are some authority on what I am and am not allowed to do is what's not acceptable. I reported them for it, and to be honest, I would report you for this. (And you would have every right to report me in return if you felt OOC'ly violated, and I would encourage you to. I would rather staff tell me I've crossed the line based on your report than continue to unknowingly have crossed a line.)
Report them and if staff determines they should stop, they will let them know and deal with it staff-side. Again, that doesn't just go for your situation. That goes for almost every situation where the offender is not in a direct violation of a specific stated and documented rule.
Unless they are trying to force you to boink them/let them boink you and go through the process of said physical force against you then they haven't broken a rule. If they break that rule, then by all means....OOC the fuck out of them, wish up during the encounter for help, AND report them.
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on August 04, 2016, 02:38:17 PM
What some of you are not so good at is the art of seduction. I've heard some hilarious ones from female friends. Please, never change.
This is quite true. Although I've never seen dick pics be sent via Way, so it's not quite as ridiculously bad as in RL.
Quote from: Desertman on August 04, 2016, 02:47:30 PM
Now if they start to go full on OOC crazy mode on you and it is just completely over the top and they are creeping on you in an OOC manner...yeah...report that....they've went full nuts.
I think we're in agreement. However, I don't think it "goes without saying" that, etc. (You used that phrase in your quoted post.) I do think these things
need to be said. I think players need to know that staff is interested in everyone having an environment that feels free of OOC harassment and abuse. It's not a burden for staff to look at these things when they come up.
Quote from: Desertman on August 04, 2016, 03:41:53 PM
You shouldn't go OOC to ask them to stop unless they are doing something that violates the rules.
I disagree. If I'm making someone genuinely uncomfortable then I'd rather know so that I can shift the scene into something they're more comfortable with (provided I can justify my character doing so, if I can't justify it then nothing will change, but I'd suggest most characters have some wiggle room to change their mind/approach in most situations). Arm's a game; the ideal outcome for me is that anyone I play with enjoys it, just not at the expense of my own immersion/enjoyment.
Note: I've never OOC asked someone to do this and likely never would, I'm probably about as hard to offend as you are.
Quote from: Talia on August 04, 2016, 04:07:19 PM
I think we're in agreement. However, I don't think it "goes without saying" that, etc. (You used that phrase in your quoted post.) I do think these things need to be said. I think players need to know that staff is interested in everyone having an environment that feels free of OOC harassment and abuse. It's not a burden for staff to look at these things when they come up.
Poor wording. I should have said, "That's common sense.".
But yeah, you are right, if someone feels the need to state it, it can only help.
Quote from: lordcooper on August 04, 2016, 04:23:10 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 04, 2016, 03:41:53 PM
You shouldn't go OOC to ask them to stop unless they are doing something that violates the rules.
I disagree. If I'm making someone genuinely uncomfortable then I'd rather know so that I can shift the scene into something they're more comfortable with (provided I can justify my character doing so, if I can't justify it then nothing will change, but I'd suggest most characters have some wiggle room to change their mind/approach in most situations). Arm's a game; the ideal outcome for me is that anyone I play with enjoys it, just not at the expense of my own immersion/enjoyment.
Note: I've never OOC asked someone to do this and likely never would, I'm probably about as hard to offend as you are.
Fair point.
I guess I should have said, "You can request that they stop, but unless they are breaking the rules, they probably won't, and shouldn't, unless they personally feel like they should, and if they don't, too bad for you.".
I feel most people probably would stop, up to and including myself, because that's the kind of players we are.
However, I've seen it enough personally (poor use of the OOC command to complain/berate/tell people to "stop") to know that some of us are also the kinds of players who would abuse the shit out of this because we are super-sensitive-want-to-be-offendeds....so I don't want to see any "hurt my feelings bro" rules put in place for this sort of thing.
We already have a hardstop rule on rape. That's as far as that should go.
Someone repeatedly trying to get in your pc's pants? R u too curvaceous? Tressy? Busty? Curvy? Mebbe u should stop tdescing the clawmarks on your back you dirty lil player you? Mebbe you just dunt like it?
Murder. Corrupt. Betray. Carry on.
I've never seen ic harassment that couldn't be solved by a swift bone sword to the neck.
I feel like the whole "there's no rule against it" argument is not very compelling. There are plenty of things that fall within the rules of the game that aren't good for the game.
I've definitely had characters which I chose to play less often or with different playtimes to avoid dealing with certain behavior. While I have a high tolerance for my characters going through difficulties, I play to enjoy the experience of playing. So if I'm not, I don't.
If my behavior is triggering your past or making something come to the front that is -actually- disturbing you, please ooc to me asking me to lighten up, and perhaps even start an OOC discussion that openly establishes boundaries and what is okay and what is not okay.
If my behavior is triggering your need to fix sexism and enforce political correctness, that is an OOC construct that I willingly follow in real life and am active in, but do not believe is present in zalanthas. Please don't OOC to me to tell me I'm an asshole for doing this when I'm literally playing an asshole in an asshole world.
This is my distinction. I in no way, shape, or form want to make people genuinely triggered. But I in no way, shape, or form want real life social ideals entering Zalanthas out of a sense of justice in a video game.
Quote from: flurry on August 04, 2016, 06:41:59 PM
I feel like the whole "there's no rule against it" argument is not very compelling.
Which doesn't make it not true.
Has anyone even talked about being triggered? Is it irrational to think that in-game sexual harassment isn't fun to be around?
Or perhaps we can all stop pretending that it's a line we're allowed to cross. Fighting for your right to tell someone you'll skullfuck them just makes you look like a basement dwelling shitnugget.
I've played some horndog women and some not so horndog women, but a common theme is that I'll get randomly hit on by people I've never met or barely met where you can tell the only reason they're talking to my PC is about sex. That is fine, but it can be persistent and weird sometimes.
You can keep saying things like that, but it's really not a compelling argument. It doesn't really make you look any better either.
The point was that if what I'm doing is causing you some sort of harm, then I certainly don't want that. But if you're trying to take a moral stance in a game literally -based around an entirely different moral code- that is also -incredibly entrenched in deep roleplay-, then I don't really entertain the idea. That's your OOC coming into the IC. I don't care if the IC world offends you. Because it should. It's got pretty much everything that we, in real life standards, consider dastardly, terrible things that make for a shitty human being. But that's the societal standard of zalanthas. It's to the point that it takes an adjustment period for most people when they join the game.
It's like you step into a D&D campaign where you walk through a side-village of slaves and you suddenly make the entire campaign about freeing them because slavery is evil and shouldn't be tolerated. Sure, you're right...for real life. But this is a fantasy world, and this is a setting, and this is a roleplaying game. I talk about triggering because that is the case where there is actual harm coming to someone. This feels like the equivalent of someone going into a comedy club and having a guy start using a lot of racist jokes, and you decide you have to go and heckle his routine when the concept of freedom of choice is that you can leave at any point. You don't have to make it your personal mission to make everyone behave the way you think you ought to behave. You're choosing to. Which is your choice. But going on to attack the character of said person because they have a different perception (or rather, the same perception, but purposely dispelling it for the sake of a dystopian setting) is pretty low. And yet that seems to be a recurring theme to your posts in particular, Jingo. You -love- trying to insert an all out attack on character of the people who aren't ardent in bringing real life feelings into the game. It's to the point that I'm likely going to start using that report to moderator button that I have literally not used in 15 years of being active on the GDB.
Some people intentionally like maintaining the non-friendly, gritty, mean atmosphere where you -know- that not everyone is going to be kind-hearted and consider your feelings. It's not them attacking you OOC as a player. It's not even their belief OOC. But you seem to hone in on it as if it is. The rules of Armageddon were set up in such a way to actually promote that this is the case; there's a reason they were worded the way they are. It's a game that is meant to be intentionally -not nice-. And if you can't separate that IC world from your OOC feelings, I think you may be allowing yourself to be a little too sensitive to it.
Quote from: Jingo on August 04, 2016, 07:14:41 PM
Or perhaps we can all stop pretending that it's a line we're allowed to cross. Fighting for your right to tell someone you'll skullfuck them just makes you look like a basement dwelling shitnugget.
I'm curious where this line exists. Not as in where do you cross it, but as in what standard of judgment are you using? Is it an OOC moral authority, or an IC one, as far as dictating IC actions and societal standard? As I said...I'm not pushing for people to be psychologically harmed through playing the game. But you're pretty much saying that creating any sort of dystopian roleplay is completely unacceptable if it contains <this>, <this>, or <this>, because we know in real life that those things are wrong.
Edit: And it should be noted...I'm not even one of the people who goes around trying to sexualize female pc's in the game. I, for the most part, play very solitary pcs. It takes some work to get them into familiarity. But I will say crude things, untargeted. But that doesn't mean I'm rallying to this idea that sexualized behavior is some sort of harsh injustice. I think I've been pretty clear in that if something is making you altogether uncomfortable, there's nothing wrong with oocing to set up those boundaries. But making the blanket ruling is neither prudent nor necessary. And talking down on others from some sort of moral high horse in a dystopian roleplaying game is a strange sort of effort to make.
I'm just going to address this.
I don't have a problem with it because I'm #TRIGGERED or because I'm a feminist or anything like that.
I have a problem with it because I'd like to logon my characters that I made to be badass hunters and stuff, and go ten minutes without Amos telling me how big his dick is. I'd like to be able to breathe without some guy telling me how flattering it makes my character's chest.
I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.
I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.
The real way to curb this is to make fme serial killers. Make mudsex dangerous again.
The line is pretty clear. Keep your verbal abuse non-sexual and try to avoid sexist slurs. And then *dingding* you're in the clear.
And perhaps do your best to not sexualize characters that don't want to be sexualized.
Quote from: Jingo on August 04, 2016, 08:02:15 PM
The line is pretty clear. Keep your verbal abuse non-sexual
That isn't the line. The line is clear at "no rape RP allowed.".
That is the line. The line you are talking about doesn't exist.
Pretending the line is somewhere else for your own comfort zones isn't the game you are playing and the actual game possibly isn't a game for everyone.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.
I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.
This probably isn't going to change until men stop finding women attractive.
If you can figure out how to change that, then you will fix your problem.
Until then, you are just dealing with reality.
I'm a female. As I said before, I play both sexes.
There are PCs who hit on my characters. That's fine. I do not need to be coddled and protected from my characters being flirted with, even aggressively.
Then there are players who seem to play the game only to get off, and they have put my characters in RP situations where they cannot realistically escape from being sexualized and used for that player's gratification. That's when I feel sexually harassed. When I dread logging in because I know I'm going to get sucked into somebody's sexual banter and games and I do not feel comfortable with it but ICly I feel it is not realistic to do anything about it, that's where the line is for me.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
I'm just going to address this.
I don't have a problem with it because I'm #TRIGGERED or because I'm a feminist or anything like that.
I have a problem with it because I'd like to logon my characters that I made to be badass hunters and stuff, and go ten minutes without Amos telling me how big his dick is. I'd like to be able to breathe without some guy telling me how flattering it makes my character's chest.
I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.
I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.
The problem is that those who want to behave that way will of course be more forward. I know that when -I- see your female pc, I'm not going out of my way to try and take her under my wing. Because I don't do that for men either. It's literally equal treatment from the majority of the playerbase. It's just the ones that you dislike that stand out. Because they -are- forward. That's the very nature of the behavior itself.
Again. The whole 'triggered' comment is being totally twisted. I literally said that if it triggered you, it was never the intention, and you should ooc that it's not okay, and you should establish those boundaries. All of a sudden you're upset that someone set a standard for themselves to make sure it's known they aren't trying to be harmful. But they -are- playing assholes. And if you're saying it's not okay to play an asshole who says outrageous things or wants to fuck, then we're kind of getting out of the realm of why this is considered a very adult roleplaying game.
No. I don't want people hurt by playing their video game, but yes, I do want the game to maintain the state where shocking things happen, shocking things are said, and the world is noticeably, deeply scummy in comparison to ours. Because it's not reality. It's dipping your toes into a place where I'd never want to live, but the strife, the danger, and the oppression are real. And so are the characters in that world.
QuoteThe line is pretty clear. Keep your verbal abuse non-sexual and try to avoid sexist slurs. And then *dingding* you're in the clear.
Again. This line seems to be coming from a real life place, not an in-game place. If there is the risk of me harming someone, actually harming them, then I want nothing of it, and I want people to feel free to state that it's inappropriate behavior around them. But if you're considering being offended harm, then I disagree. I've no doubt that this standard will vary, and that people will ooc about it not being okay when really it's just something they don't want to read about. It'll happen. And I'm not going to police it.
I like how you're jumping on the idea that I would actually let that option be there for me personally, but I didn't think it was such an extreme thing that it should occur often. Like it's not just a mission to make it so that people have the option of it, you must convert me into being a fan of your point of view, as well.
Yeah. This is Armageddon. If I'm not free to make an obese dwarf named Gool who goes around attempting to nibble at the earlobe of every PC he meets and then whisper "I can smell that you're in heat" and then, once rebuffed, constantly Way suggestions of different sexual positions and techniques then I might as well play fucking HellMOO or something.
(im being sarcastic and this thread has become kind of stupid and icky)
Beware the rabbit hole, beware the double standard. Women can and will be just as sexually aggressive as men, will look at men as something to have sex with, etc. It is not a one way street.
But boiling it all down: if you're harassed, male or female, on an ooc level: report it. If someone's bothering your pc, IC and it annoys you/them: CBM, or just don't see that person. No one forces you to play with a specific other pc.
Quote from: Desertman on August 04, 2016, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.
I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.
This probably isn't going to change until men stop finding women attractive.
If you can figure out how to change that, then you will fix your problem.
Until then, you are just dealing with reality.
There's the thing. This isn't reality. This is Zalanthas, a world populated by giant bugs, elfs, and bald dwarves and then a few things from the real world.
I come here to escape reality, I don't want to logon and feel like all I did was put on some Zalanthas Goggles.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 04, 2016, 08:13:05 PM
I'm a female. As I said before, I play both sexes.
There are PCs who hit on my characters. That's fine. I do not need to be coddled and protected from my characters being flirted with, even aggressively.
Then there are players who seem to play the game only to get off, and they have put my characters in RP situations where they cannot realistically escape from being sexualized and used for that player's gratification. That's when I feel sexually harassed. When I dread logging in because I know I'm going to get sucked into somebody's sexual banter and games and I do not feel comfortable with it but ICly I feel it is not realistic to do anything about it, that's where the line is for me.
That's the distinction I was making, though. That's the difference between the two. You guys just focused on the word 'triggered' and latched onto it, when the concept behind it is exactly this. If there's something going on that is putting you into this situation of literal -forced- discomfort that is completely direct and targeted...of course that's crossing a line.
But some guy spewing out random crude pickup lines and trying to get laid in disgusting zalanthan ways isn't something that needs to be wiped off the face of the game. I feel that women in particular, being set with it in real life, are very well versed in the difference and will know for themselves when that OOC moment needs to happen. It doesn't need to be avoided. But the crude man will always exist in zalanthas...and it's important that it remain thematic rather than a targeted thing. But you gotta allow for the fact that some PC's really do fall in love or strong attraction with other PC's. And that it's Zalanthas, and they may be trying to keep it from being a romantic disney approach instead of what feels more appropriate, to them. A simple ooc can set things straight if it gets to that point.
Yeah. I for one can tell the difference. And it doesn't have anything to do with how crude it is.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
I'm just going to address this.
I don't have a problem with it because I'm #TRIGGERED or because I'm a feminist or anything like that.
I have a problem with it because I'd like to logon my characters that I made to be badass hunters and stuff, and go ten minutes without Amos telling me how big his dick is. I'd like to be able to breathe without some guy telling me how flattering it makes my character's chest.
I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.
I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.
Yes, this kind of play is annoying if it is continual.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 04, 2016, 08:13:05 PM
I'm a female. As I said before, I play both sexes.
There are PCs who hit on my characters. That's fine. I do not need to be coddled and protected from my characters being flirted with, even aggressively.
Then there are players who seem to play the game only to get off, and they have put my characters in RP situations where they cannot realistically escape from being sexualized and used for that player's gratification. That's when I feel sexually harassed. When I dread logging in because I know I'm going to get sucked into somebody's sexual banter and games and I do not feel comfortable with it but ICly I feel it is not realistic to do anything about it, that's where the line is for me.
Nail on the head.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 04, 2016, 08:26:16 PM
Yeah. I for one can tell the difference. And it doesn't have anything to do with how crude it is.
+1
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 08:21:34 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 04, 2016, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.
I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.
This probably isn't going to change until men stop finding women attractive.
If you can figure out how to change that, then you will fix your problem.
Until then, you are just dealing with reality.
There's the thing. This isn't reality. This is Zalanthas, a world populated by giant bugs, elfs, and bald dwarves and then a few things from the real world.
I come here to escape reality, I don't want to logon and feel like all I did was put on some Zalanthas Goggles.
It's not even reality. It's a sexist stereotype that's used to justify abuse.
Quote from: Yam on August 04, 2016, 08:16:44 PM
Yeah. This is Armageddon. If I'm not free to make an obese dwarf named Gool who goes around attempting to nibble at the earlobe of every PC he meets and then whisper "I can smell that you're in heat" and then, once rebuffed, constantly Way suggestions of different sexual positions and techniques then I might as well play fucking HellMOO or something.
(im being sarcastic and this thread has become kind of stupid and icky)
Of course it turns icky. It's people talking about sexualization. It's a bunch of people with different ideas of what's okay and what isn't okay, and unfortunately, in a game where -all- of it is conveyed through words, the line between actions and words is less pronounced.
However, the rest of your comment is essentially just a complete...strawman? Hyperbole? I don't know, it's definitely one of those common fallacious arguments you learn about in any base persuasive writing class. No one is arguing that the game isn't worth playing if you can't debase other people. But it is being said that the rule being moved up 20 years after the fact seems to be because people are taking IC words as actual ideas that players are conveying to other players. If we applied this same standard to everything happening in the game, we'd be having discussions on how harmful it is to raise children in elven households, the prevalence of violence in zalanthan lives, the injustice of templars and how it infringes on the rights of citizens, and everything else.
This topic, in particular, just gets more attention because it is far more charged because of real life events (I am in no way trying to undermine trauma and damage that can occur). And so for some people, I agree, there is a definite exception to be made. But others, it's because the happenings of IC are being taken a little too seriously and the players of that action are given attributes that are inaccurate, or they are white knighting for a moral that isn't even truly under attack...just being suspended for the sake of dystopia.
Once again...if it is a serious problem, ooc about it, and if it's ignored, then report it. Staff will sift through it all and decide. But I don't think we need to go to the extreme of 'no sexual advances are welcome in this game, nor are sexual analogies, or crude words about body parts, or shocking violence'.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
I'm just going to address this.
I don't have a problem with it because I'm #TRIGGERED or because I'm a feminist or anything like that.
I have a problem with it because I'd like to logon my characters that I made to be badass hunters and stuff, and go ten minutes without Amos telling me how big his dick is. I'd like to be able to breathe without some guy telling me how flattering it makes my character's chest.
I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.
I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.
I can definitely understand that. I think a lot of people are in the same boat. But this is an adult oriented game with lots of blood and violence and even sex (Americans close your eyes!!!). But I still agree with you. If it's persistent with a particular character/player (however you want to make the distinction) to the point that it could be seen as OOC harassment (not just IC harassment) then you should put a report in. But not until you first ask them to cut it out because it is making you uncomfortable OOC'ly. That seems perfectly reasonable for me. That's of course assuming it's just repeated graphic shit and not just being creepy. If you feel that it's not enough to put in a report then deal with it IC as others had said. Cut his balls off. Or either you or friends (or both, because it's a bonding experience) beat the ever loving shit out of them then drag them through the desert on your mounts. And boom, they'll leave you alone (or retaliate).
The problem is making that distinction. And if you feel repeatedly offended at the actions of people IC then it's probably you and not them. And then this is probably not your game. Although I've definitely felt weirded out at the actions of characters. But it's usually more cringey stuff that someone says to someone else. I avoid MUDsex (If I get into that situation, I'll just fade to black). Have for years now. I think it's kind of awkward and not to mention absolutely tedious to do. And I'm not interested in writing a smut novel. But I don't mind harmless flirting or romance if I feel that my character would do so. But I usually have the other player initiate it and not me. If you're running around playing a f-me, then my character will probably walk in and check out out and think "Damn, he/she's a looker" or whatever and move onto whatever I was doing. And this is mostly because I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable OOC. But this is purely personal choice and people have every right to flirt or just be gross to you. You shouldn't be offended (I'm not saying this to you directly btw, BrokenRomance. Just in general) as a player. You don't know them IRL. Perhaps they are just normal, courteous people playing a character. They are acting.
What I think overall is that there IS a line that can be crossed that stops before rape. Rape is obviously were the line in the sand is pointed out to everybody and no one can cross. However, I think that a line could be set from repeated graphic sexual harassment by the same character. You then let them know that OOC. Tell them they are making you very uncomfortable and just ask them to either stop or tone it down a bit. Be polite and mature about it at first and come to an OOC agreement about boundaries. I knew a player who was harassed by another player IG through multiple characters so I understand it can be detrimental and make you want to stop logging in. Especially with female characters. I never played one to be honest, but I can definitely see they get hit on the most.
Anyways, BrokenRomance, I think you are just having some bad luck because not every male character I've seen IG tries to hit on every female character. Not even the majority do. And I've seen (and had) men-women relationships that are purely platonic and based on either pure friendship or an understanding that their alliance is beneficial or symbiotic to their characters for some reason or another.
Armaddict, the point is that though some actions are not explicitly against the rape/consent rules we have, they can be pretty shitty from an OOC standpoint. You and Desertman seem to be arguing that it isn't the case at all. I think it's an absurd argument so I made an absurd counterexample.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 04, 2016, 08:33:25 PM
Quote from: Yam on August 04, 2016, 08:16:44 PM
Yeah. This is Armageddon. If I'm not free to make an obese dwarf named Gool who goes around attempting to nibble at the earlobe of every PC he meets and then whisper "I can smell that you're in heat" and then, once rebuffed, constantly Way suggestions of different sexual positions and techniques then I might as well play fucking HellMOO or something.
(im being sarcastic and this thread has become kind of stupid and icky)
Of course it turns icky. It's people talking about sexualization. It's a bunch of people with different ideas of what's okay and what isn't okay, and unfortunately, in a game where -all- of it is conveyed through words, the line between actions and words is less pronounced.
However, the rest of your comment is essentially just a complete...strawman? Hyperbole? I don't know, it's definitely one of those common fallacious arguments you learn about in any base persuasive writing class. No one is arguing that the game isn't worth playing if you can't debase other people. But it is being said that the rule being moved up 20 years after the fact seems to be because people are taking IC words as actual ideas that players are conveying to other players. If we applied this same standard to everything happening in the game, we'd be having discussions on how harmful it is to raise children in elven households, the prevalence of violence in zalanthan lives, the injustice of templars and how it infringes on the rights of citizens, and everything else.
This topic, in particular, just gets more attention because it is far more charged because of real life events (I am in no way trying to undermine trauma and damage that can occur). And so for some people, I agree, there is a definite exception to be made. But others, it's because the happenings of IC are being taken a little too seriously and the players of that action are given attributes that are inaccurate, or they are white knighting for a moral that isn't even truly under attack...just being suspended for the sake of dystopia.
Once again...if it is a serious problem, ooc about it, and if it's ignored, then report it. Staff will sift through it all and decide. But I don't think we need to go to the extreme of 'no sexual advances are welcome in this game, nor are sexual analogies, or crude words about body parts, or shocking violence'.
Once again, I'm going to address something.
My problem isn't because I take them seriously. If I took them seriously, you'd be in a thread with a very different me. I find them annoying, bothersome, tiresome, irksome, vaguely disgusting, and a number of other things.
My problem chiefly lies in the fact that there are people who will persist in doing this sort of thing to my characters even though I have expressed strongly ICly, and inevitably OOCly once, that I do not want it to continue.
It is ruining my enjoyment of the game. My enjoyment shouldn't come at the cost of your enjoyment. If you have to flirt, and my character doesn't want to put up with it, leave me the Drov alone. There are other girls that don't care about it.
And before you say I can just walk away, no it isn't that easy. I've had that people I barely know thing happen and I'm not just going to take Amosa to Red Storm because this loser in Luir's at the End won't stop even after I asked him to, threatened to kill him, and a number of other things.
File a Player complaint.
Making a GDB thread about it is literally the 2nd least productive thing you can do about it.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2016, 08:43:32 PM
File a Player complaint.
Making a GDB thread about it is literally the 2nd least productive thing you can do about it.
Well, initially this wasn't actually about my personal problem with it. I was genuinely confused because on a particular level I consider it to be gender discrimination. It was when people started focusing on me that I voiced my problem with it.
I sexually harass everyone equally.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 08:49:10 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2016, 08:43:32 PM
File a Player complaint.
Making a GDB thread about it is literally the 2nd least productive thing you can do about it.
Well, initially this wasn't actually about my personal problem with it. I was genuinely confused because on a particular level I consider it to be gender discrimination. It was when people started focusing on me that I voiced my problem with it.
If you think someone is violating the docs on gender discrimination: player complaint.
If you think someone is sexually harassing you: player complaint.
Making a GDB thread to discuss the issue is almost entirely pointless. None of us can judge whether something is or is against the rules: only staff can do that. If they believe there's a problem, they can go directly to the problem player and try to correct them.
Threads like this are just another form of vaguebooking. You're far more likely to just provoke defensive reactions from players who (perhaps subconsciously) fear that they're the mystery transgressors because they share some of the behavior described, kicking off a spiral of poor justifications and rules lawyering that inevitably devolve in to personal petty swipes.
If you see something you think is a problem, file a player complaint. Let staff sort it out.
Hey BrokenRomance, I feel like you are overly exaggerating to make your point or pretty much every male players on Armageddon are creepy as hell and no matter what you say will correct that.
Like if every single male characters you meet in game constantly hit on you like you say then it's pretty hopeless.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2016, 08:58:11 PM
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 08:49:10 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2016, 08:43:32 PM
File a Player complaint.
Making a GDB thread about it is literally the 2nd least productive thing you can do about it.
Well, initially this wasn't actually about my personal problem with it. I was genuinely confused because on a particular level I consider it to be gender discrimination. It was when people started focusing on me that I voiced my problem with it.
If you think someone is violating the docs on gender discrimination: player complaint.
If you think someone is sexually harassing you: player complaint.
Making a GDB thread to discuss the issue is almost entirely pointless. None of us can judge whether something is or is against the rules: only staff can do that. If they believe there's a problem, they can go directly to the problem player and try to correct them.
Threads like this are just another form of vaguebooking. You're far more likely to just provoke defensive reactions from players who (perhaps subconsciously) fear that they're the mystery transgressors because they share some of the behavior described, kicking off a spiral of poor justifications and rules lawyering that inevitably devolve in to personal petty swipes.
If you see something you think is a problem, file a player complaint. Let staff sort it out.
At the very least posting in the thread allows us to check the regressive voices with our own. I wouldn't want fresh players to think some of these things are acceptable.
Quote from: Malken on August 04, 2016, 08:58:37 PM
Hey BrokenRomance, I feel like you are overly exaggerating to make your point or pretty much every male players on Armageddon are creepy as hell and no matter what you say will correct that.
Like if every single male characters you meet in game constantly hit on you like you say then it's pretty hopeless.
Alright. I'm going to lay this out. I have had six PCs. All of my PCs have been women. Of those six, the only two that did not encounter at least one of the kind of people I described were the delfs.
I happen to very much enjoy delfs.
And while I'm on the fact I enjoy delfs, I saw somebody pull the "if you have a problem with x, maybe Arm isn't the game for you" card a few posts back.
Please just don't. Put that card back in your wallet, use it for somebody who is talking about having an issue with every thing in the game instead of me, who wants to play a noble because I get off on political intrigue or a high-standing member of a GMH because I also get off on economic ruin and control. Or enjoys delves.
I'm going to stop replying though, because I am no longer capable of being civil after this post.
I'd buy that argument, Jingo, if this thread began with the question "Why don't these PCs I flirt with put out?" The "regressive voices" only rise up when someone calls them on it. Maybe it feels good to combat, but I'd rather people filed complaints so actual disciplinary action could be taken.
As someone who plays sexually-vocal PCs I'd a thousand times prefer to be told straight up, either by a player or by staff, if I'm crossing someone's personal line. Not knowing I am but knowing that my behavior could just leaves me on eggshells.
What's crossing the line, though? All this thread does, is as someone else said, is make people who aren't the source of your problem nervous about upsetting someone. Zalanthas is not your modern-day workplace. It's a brutal crapsack world where a shitty death, and being forgotten, are inevitable. You know what pisses me off? When someone kills my PC. Which, happens, frequently enough. I can't just OOC: Hey, could you disengage? Because I'm kind of enjoying my character.
I can submit a complaint, and I can tell you right now what the response would be. Zalanthas is a harsh post-apocalyptic world where you could be murdered for even a sip of water. If you can't get used to the idea, then perhaps this is not the game for you.
Quote from: Yam on August 04, 2016, 08:39:57 PM
Armaddict, the point is that though some actions are not explicitly against the rape/consent rules we have, they can be pretty shitty from an OOC standpoint. You and Desertman seem to be arguing that it isn't the case at all. I think it's an absurd argument so I made an absurd counterexample.
...I think I've put enough qualifiers in every post of mine to say confidently that I never asserted that this was not a problem. What I said was that the extreme, the complete evaporation of it, was an overreaction and that I saw no problems with reporting someone -after- you give them the heads up ooc, and that in some cases, there was likely some oversensitivity. I've played very sexually active characters. Some of them have been rough. Some have been romantic. I've never gone into it with a sense of entitlement of 'this is armageddon and that's how this will be'. I never played a rape plot, pre-rape-rule.
If someone being persistent is the problem, then that seems to be exactly fitting the criteria I laid out for an acceptable justification for a report. If someone is being overly assertive and targeting you hard with sexually -violent- behavior, or hinting at it, that would be acceptable justification by all the criteria I put up.
The only qualifier I put up was that in the case that you're upset that someone doesn't want to give up on a character's love interest, but isn't being particularly harsh about it, that's not the same thing. If someone is being sexually crude, but not targeting anyone in particular with it, particularly not someone who doesn't mind, then that's not the same thing. Again, I feel like I'm not saying anything archaic about it; I think women in particular very much know the distinction I'm trying to make. If these last two characteristics are what is being deemed as abusive, then that is what I'm referring to as oversensitive.
QuoteIt is ruining my enjoyment of the game. My enjoyment shouldn't come at the cost of your enjoyment. If you have to flirt, and my character doesn't want to put up with it, leave me the Drov alone. There are other girls that don't care about it.
Again, I never said it should. However, this same statement works in reverse. Don't start asserting that everyone's character needs to walk around on eggshells (to mirror Skeelz's mention of 'how it feels') about saying sexual things in a rated MA (Mature Audiences) if you can't be mature about some people talking about different things than you might want to hear in any particular case. In those scenarios above, the lines of where OOC discussion becomes more prominent than IC integrity are pretty clearly outlined. You can agree or disagree with them, but I feel that they're in a very good medium point to the effect that you making the suggestion that I can't follow those lines would be overcompensating at the expense of the adult game I've been able to handle just fine. And that's with me, a completely straight man, being hit on by male PC's, sometimes even aggressively. I kept the game world in mind, kept it in stride, but made sure to make it clear it wasn't going to happen. Sometimes it persisted until they died, sometimes it didn't. But the guy playing a guy into men who had fixated on mine wasn't some sort of violence on my roleplaying game. It was something that I sometimes played with, sometimes ignored, and never took it as some dude deciding I shouldn't enjoy my game. I certainly could have thought of it that way though. And if they went to the point of going into homosexual sex acts playing out in my character's head, you can be sure they'd get reported.
That is my criteria here. If those aren't good for you, I'm going to shrug it off, and apologize that you sometimes have to be exposed to things you don't like, because I don't think those lines are unreasonable for the roleplaying game.
I'm not going to be civil in this. In fact, I may be a little rude.
But it is completely hilarious that apparently, because I used myself as an example, this is now a thread about me whining about something.
BadSkeelz, you actually posted something in this thread when I first posted it that I agreed with, and I got it.
All I've done this entire thread is tell people what makes me feel the way I feel about something.
I am sorrrrrryyyyyyy that I have any sort of feelings whatsoever. I shall bow before this great knowledge that I shouldn't respond on a personal level to things that people have said whatsoever on this forum ever again. Because all that is happening is I'm being called a whiner for it.
I was genuinely, honestly, curious when I first made this thread about what was introduced in the opening post. And I received answers that helped me understand what I wanted to know, and then it moved a little bit into something where I said one little personal thing and I let myself slip into talking about my own personal problems with this. I will never do that again.
Have a pleasant day, all of you.
Way too many words Armaddict - I don't want to have to hunt to figure out what you're trying to say.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2016, 09:06:03 PM
I'd buy that argument, Jingo, if this thread began with the question "Why don't these PCs I flirt with put out?" The "regressive voices" only rise up when someone calls them on it. Maybe it feels good to combat, but I'd rather people filed complaints so actual disciplinary action could be taken.
As someone who plays sexually-vocal PCs I'd a thousand times prefer to be told straight up, either by a player or by staff, if I'm crossing someone's personal line. Not knowing I am but knowing that my behavior could just leaves me on eggshells.
It wasn't the op I was responding to. And I agree, sometimes boundaries are tricky and it's something I've even struggled with in the past. But if it was a small one-time problem then we probably wouldn't have a thread on it.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 04, 2016, 09:19:34 PM
What's crossing the line, though? All this thread does, is as someone else said, is make people who aren't the source of your problem nervous about upsetting someone. Zalanthas is not your modern-day workplace. It's a brutal crapsack world where a shitty death, and being forgotten, are inevitable. You know what pisses me off? When someone kills my PC. Which, happens, frequently enough. I can't just OOC: Hey, could you disengage? Because I'm kind of enjoying my character.
I can submit a complaint, and I can tell you right now what the response would be. Zalanthas is a harsh post-apocalyptic world where you could be murdered for even a sip of water. If you can't get used to the idea, then perhaps this is not the game for you.
The motto is Murder, Corruption, Betrayal. Not Murder, Corruption, Betrayal, and Unwanted Sexual Situations. There's a difference between getting your PC killed and getting harassed. I'm happy to be accommodating on a high-emotion topic like this because at the end of the day I don't need sexual roleplay for my characters to stand on their own and be enjoyable.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 09:25:47 PM
I'm not going to be civil in this. In fact, I may be a little rude.
But it is completely hilarious that apparently, because I used myself as an example, this is now a thread about me whining about something.
BadSkeelz, you actually posted something in this thread when I first posted it that I agreed with, and I got it.
All I've done this entire thread is tell people what makes me feel the way I feel about something.
I am sorrrrrryyyyyyy that I have any sort of feelings whatsoever. I shall bow before this great knowledge that I shouldn't respond on a personal level to things that people have said whatsoever on this forum ever again. Because all that is happening is I'm being called a whiner for it.
I was genuinely, honestly, curious when I first made this thread about what was introduced in the opening post. And I received answers that helped me understand what I wanted to know, and then it moved a little bit into something where I said one little personal thing and I let myself slip into talking about my own personal problems with this. I will never do that again.
Have a pleasant day, all of you.
BrokenRomance, I'm sorry if you feel I'm calling you out. I do not think your grievances are unjustified.
What I'm trying to do is to encourage you to stand up for yourself and not take the shit you've apparently had flung at you. Putting PCs in situations where sex is the only way out, or the "inevitable IC thing to do" is one of the scummiest things in this game. I honestly think bringing it to staff's attention and working to mitigate it will lead to a more enjoyable game for both yourself and the rest of us who dislike that kind of play.
I kinda get what Broken Romance is saying, and I agree with the overall sentiment; I experience similar, sometimes. It happens in clusters usually, and it doesn't matter if my PC is good looking or hideous, human or breed. And it's not even just about my PCs getting hit on. It's about the constant sexual banter that just doesn't seem to end, with some characters. It's like no matter what someone says, about anything at all, they have to turn it into a discussion about sex. And that discussion has to read like a really bad harlequin romance, or worse - a bad pulp fiction detective story.
It's not much different to me than back when I played GSIII and there were these players who always played their characters like 4-year-old cartoon characters. "Oooh let's go kill some dwarfies, yay!" >The tall burly muscular manly-man beams happily at you! >The tall burly muscular manly-man jumps around excitedly!
And you just want to tell them to stop. It's not cute, it's ridiculous, and it's a buzzkill.
The sexual stuff is like that, to me. It's not against the rules, it's not even all that offensive. It's just overdone, last Tuesday, stale coffee, and older than my mother's wrinkles.
I play female characters too, Broken Romance, I don't encounter this sort of shit frequently, and when I do, someone's getting their throat cut. A few jokes, barbs, heck, maybe even some pestering, fine, whatever, two can play at that game, I'm free to accept and reject as I see fit. If it ever starts to get on my PC's nerves, I'll make it clear that I'm not the one you want to fuck with. If the fucking with continues, someone's going to get the piss beaten out of them. If it still doesn't work, someone's going to bleed out.
In fact, I'd say it happens to my male PCs almost as frequently. Which is to say, not all that much, and from both genders. But then, I don't play with the fme desc or anything near typical. Not saying it SHOULD happen more frequently with the fme desc, but when you write up an fme desc you have to understand that it sets you outside the norm, makes you exceptional, and therefor more desirable to (some) other characters. It has nothing to do, most times, with being female. Some of my descs focus on being horribly grotesque, mutilated, and/or mutated. People are drawn to my RP and seek to stick around and see how my PC handles relationship issues and yes, it's not always a fade. When it's not a fade it gets a little tedious but eh, helps define the character I'm playing a little better.
Is it not documented that sex is one of the few forms of entertainment, aside from throat slitting, that exist in Zalanthas? Are the views toward it not outlined somewhere? I could swear I read it somewhere but I may be misremembering.
Quote from: Yam on August 04, 2016, 09:27:04 PM
Way too many words Armaddict - I don't want to have to hunt to figure out what you're trying to say.
Forgive me for there being a lot to say about a very nuanced and complex topic. Because oversimplifying it results in things being read the wrong way, which is why some people are even in this thread, apparently.
Basically, you suggested that we said there was no problem, when I made it very clear where my boundary was, and I find it a sensible boundary based on expectation of adult reactions to adult situations, aside from those situations that are pushed into an area of full on discomfort.
I've pushed that same thought over and over with different wording because it keeps being countered in a way that makes it sound as if I'm saying 'Tough luck, deal with it'. I haven't said that at all. The only thing similar that I've said that I keep trying to clarify is that there are situations where disgusting things are said, but that doesn't mean the player saying them is in violation of the 'fellow player' pact for enjoyment, and that distinction is an important one. It seems that saying oversensitivity to it exists (without even attributing it to someone else - Broken Romance, I wasn't trying to cheapen your opinion, just using it as a springboard for my own) is in itself something that doesn't sit well with some, which is, perhaps, the source of why my presentation isn't coming across as well.
As far as having to hunt? It's text. If you read it from beginning to end, it has information in it. When you try to find small tidbits to reply to without reading the whole, that may be another reason misunderstandings are popping up.
I'd personally be thrilled if there was just nothing sexual about the game, and I think it'd actually be a lot more interesting if the needle dicks who can only focus on sex had to glom onto something original. But that ain't the game. I get what BR is saying, though. It'd be awesome to have cool scenes without some kid turning into the wind and getting an erection, but again, that ain't the game. To be fair, though, it's not horrendously off putting, at least from my male perspective, and there are many nice stories that come out of this game that aren't sexual in nature. So hey, it's not all that bad.
Jesus, what did I walk into.
Nevermind.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 09:25:47 PM
I'm not going to be civil in this. In fact, I may be a little rude.
But it is completely hilarious that apparently, because I used myself as an example, this is now a thread about me whining about something.
BadSkeelz, you actually posted something in this thread when I first posted it that I agreed with, and I got it.
All I've done this entire thread is tell people what makes me feel the way I feel about something.
I am sorrrrrryyyyyyy that I have any sort of feelings whatsoever. I shall bow before this great knowledge that I shouldn't respond on a personal level to things that people have said whatsoever on this forum ever again. Because all that is happening is I'm being called a whiner for it.
I was genuinely, honestly, curious when I first made this thread about what was introduced in the opening post. And I received answers that helped me understand what I wanted to know, and then it moved a little bit into something where I said one little personal thing and I let myself slip into talking about my own personal problems with this. I will never do that again.
Have a pleasant day, all of you.
You take things too personally. No one is insulting you.
Welcome to the GDB, raptor Dan!! ;D :o ??? ::) 8) :'(
Out of curiosity. Those who play female characters and are experiencing all that sexual banter. How often do you experience this banter from male dwarves?
Every time this topic comes up (which is often), the complaints about the harassing behavior are dismissed as overreactions. Literally every time for well over a decade.
When I had another player OOCly harassing me by private message, I did complain and the staff did take action. But when it's IC behavior that (as people are so quick to point out) is technically within the rules, suggestions to report it kind of miss the point.
There is no c in flirtatious.
You guys, I have had my staff avatar that the dude player couldn't even see hit on. (Giant spiders are super hot, tho.)
That statement is mostly for comic relief, though it's 100% true.
We get a lot of argument over topics like this. I appreciate Brokenromance for bringing it up. I do think it's a rather prevalent problem for female players, AND the discussion is beneficial because we can all use a good look at our own behavior sometimes. We should consider these things, and see if they apply to us.
No naming names or pointing fingers, but I don't think there's anyone on either side of the argument here who really has a problem with in-game behavior that crosses any lines. Overall we've got a pretty mature and respectful playerbase. The people who are causing issues aren't posting in this thread, is what I'm saying, after looking over the posts again.
All I have to say is some of my more epic plots STARTED with someone crossing the line with me. I wouldn't trade that for any sort of feel-good policy in the world. I understand it may be upsetting because of RL events, or maybe you're just not the slightest bit interested in that side of your character's life, if you're not OOCly interested, or even just curious what your PC will be doing, you can fade. If the advances are unwelcome? Fuck 'em up, get your murder, corruption and betrayal on, perfect excuse. This polarization that PCs having relations is all about sex, though, is a fallacy.
One PC, who'd murdered my previous PC, pretty much, straight out of chargen, drug my next PC off, didn't say a word, just grabbed him, shoved coins into his hand, and made him his bitch, and it was an excellent way to get slam-dunked right into the character, and acquire contacts and resources. Think there were a couple times we didn't fade, other than that? Was just something our PCs did. Now, if I saw this scene, right there, and said, no, this isn't appropriate, there's a very strong chance nothing down the road would have gone as it did. Don't assume that just because the first thing you're propositioned for is sex,that that's all their is to the other character.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 05, 2016, 12:14:19 AM
All I have to say is some of my more epic plots STARTED with someone crossing the line with me. I wouldn't trade that for any sort of feel-good policy in the world. I understand it may be upsetting because of RL events, or maybe you're just not the slightest bit interested in that side of your character's life, if you're not OOCly interested, or even just curious what your PC will be doing, you can fade. If the advances are unwelcome? Fuck 'em up, get your murder, corruption and betrayal on, perfect excuse. This polarization that PCs having relations is all about sex, though, is a fallacy.
One PC, who'd murdered my previous PC, pretty much, straight out of chargen, drug my next PC off, didn't say a word, just grabbed him, shoved coins into his hand, and made him his bitch, and it was an excellent way to get slam-dunked right into the character, and acquire contacts and resources. Think there were a couple times we didn't fade, other than that? Was just something our PCs did. Now, if I saw this scene, right there, and said, no, this isn't appropriate, there's a very strong chance nothing down the road would have gone as it did. Don't assume that just because the first thing you're propositioned for is sex,that that's all their is to the other character.
That isn't what anyone is saying here. Nobody is saying that sex is all these characters have to them. It might feel like that to myself and perhaps others at times though, and that is what is being discussed here.
I'd love to have seen the actual depth of some of the PCs I have begun to avoid because they just wanted to boink me, but I'm not going to put my character in a situation my character doesn't want just for it. You make the mistake of thinking that this is about the fact that we aren't OOCly like that, but riddle me this.
I have had a character state quiet strongly that she is attracted to women. I have had her publicly flirt with women. I have gone to great lengths to have their be no doubt that she was attracted to women. What am I supposed to do? Bend over and let these men that won't take no do as they please because that is their character? Am I not allowed to ask them to stop ICly? Ask them OOCly when it has come to a point I no longer feel comfortable with logging on that character? I don't care in the least if I can just fade. That. Is. Not. My. Character.
Broken, I've had a character that seduced a woman who hated men, despised them utterly. It led to a silly, though ill-fated romp, that was a character defining moment that resonated for quite some time with my PC. Had my male PC not persisted, this would have never taken place. It wasn't because she was a woman, but because she had sids and my PC was looking to get them, and she was fun to RP with, so I had to carve out a niche in the market. In the end, it was never about the sex, at all. Well, maybe a smidge, but it was MORE about the story, the intimacy was simply PART of that story.
I had to cross that line, though. And not in a skeezy way, but just the right way. My character's survival depended on it. I don't think I ever faded with her, but I would have been totally willing to do so if asked, never was though.
That said, my male PCs usually leave women PCs alone (and male PCs, for that matter, and most of my female PCs do the same) if they're vocal about their preferences, there's been a few exceptions but eh, it all made for a better story in the end. I think there's a strong difference between don't do that, and, do NOT do that. It's not like I had to flex or strut about to do it, would have been counter-productive that way. My only point, and one you likely already understand by now, don't lump all seeming horn-dogs into one group. Some of them are just staying IC, some are just skeezbags looking for text-sex. I prefer to think most of those who can handle Zalanthas are the former.
EDIT: Then there's my breeds that try to hit on people, then run somewhere quiet to cry about how unwanted they are.
Pretty much anytime mudsex/rape/sexual harassment comes up in a thread I just shake my head. I've not seen this taken to extremes, I play many females, I also play sexually active female pc's (remember that shit next time you wanna mudsex creepers). I've never been the victim of anything silly that made me feel jarred out of my immersions. However, I'm pretty thick-skinned when it comes to conflict in the game and it's many shapes and sizes. I'll hack you in the throat with a bone sword... but I think I said that earlier.
If you have an mdesc that reads like a slutty romance novel and you have an sdesc that screams f-me, whelp, expect players that do that sort of thing to gravitate towards you. While not of the popular opinion, sadly, I wish mudsex was fade-only, If only because week-old lovers spawning jealously plots and committing suicide over dumb shit makes me wanna dropkick my computer. I also know that if mudsex was fade-only in Armageddon, we'd lose half of our playerbase.
I think I made ONE revenge character, who ended up wanting to settle down with an elf and have nothing to do with twinking their skills. I was just like, ICly, eh, screw revenge.
EDIT: I was probably wanting to murder Armaddict but then I was like, this is lame, got better things to do.
Quote from: Majikal on August 05, 2016, 01:40:01 AM
Pretty much anytime mudsex/rape/sexual harassment comes up in a thread I just shake my head. I've not seen this taken to extremes, I play many females, I also play sexually active female pc's (remember that shit next time you wanna mudsex creepers). I've never been the victim of anything silly that made me feel jarred out of my immersions. However, I'm pretty thick-skinned when it comes to conflict in the game and it's many shapes and sizes. I'll hack you in the throat with a bone sword... but I think I said that earlier.
If you have an mdesc that reads like a slutty romance novel and you have an sdesc that screams f-me, whelp, expect players that do that sort of thing to gravitate towards you. While not of the popular opinion, sadly, I wish mudsex was fade-only, If only because week-old lovers spawning jealously plots and committing suicide over dumb shit makes me wanna dropkick my computer. I also know that if mudsex was fade-only in Armageddon, we'd lose half of our playerbase.
I know Majikal.
Thats why I mudsex so much.
IN HOPES IT IS YOU
Quote from: Jihelu on August 05, 2016, 02:09:22 AM
Quote from: Majikal on August 05, 2016, 01:40:01 AM
Pretty much anytime mudsex/rape/sexual harassment comes up in a thread I just shake my head. I've not seen this taken to extremes, I play many females, I also play sexually active female pc's (remember that shit next time you wanna mudsex creepers). I've never been the victim of anything silly that made me feel jarred out of my immersions. However, I'm pretty thick-skinned when it comes to conflict in the game and it's many shapes and sizes. I'll hack you in the throat with a bone sword... but I think I said that earlier.
If you have an mdesc that reads like a slutty romance novel and you have an sdesc that screams f-me, whelp, expect players that do that sort of thing to gravitate towards you. While not of the popular opinion, sadly, I wish mudsex was fade-only, If only because week-old lovers spawning jealously plots and committing suicide over dumb shit makes me wanna dropkick my computer. I also know that if mudsex was fade-only in Armageddon, we'd lose half of our playerbase.
I know Majikal.
Thats why I mudsex so much.
IN HOPES IT IS YOU
Fun fact. It's ALWAYS me. ;D
Quote from: Talia on August 04, 2016, 11:55:10 PM
You guys, I have had my staff avatar that the dude player couldn't even see hit on. (Giant spiders are super hot, tho.)
That statement is mostly for comic relief, though it's 100% true.
We get a lot of argument over topics like this. I appreciate Brokenromance for bringing it up. I do think it's a rather prevalent problem for female players, AND the discussion is beneficial because we can all use a good look at our own behavior sometimes. We should consider these things, and see if they apply to us.
No naming names or pointing fingers, but I don't think there's anyone on either side of the argument here who really has a problem with in-game behavior that crosses any lines. Overall we've got a pretty mature and respectful playerbase. The people who are causing issues aren't posting in this thread, is what I'm saying, after looking over the posts again.
Posting to be in thread.
Quote from: Majikal on August 05, 2016, 02:14:29 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on August 05, 2016, 02:09:22 AM
Quote from: Majikal on August 05, 2016, 01:40:01 AM
Pretty much anytime mudsex/rape/sexual harassment comes up in a thread I just shake my head. I've not seen this taken to extremes, I play many females, I also play sexually active female pc's (remember that shit next time you wanna mudsex creepers). I've never been the victim of anything silly that made me feel jarred out of my immersions. However, I'm pretty thick-skinned when it comes to conflict in the game and it's many shapes and sizes. I'll hack you in the throat with a bone sword... but I think I said that earlier.
If you have an mdesc that reads like a slutty romance novel and you have an sdesc that screams f-me, whelp, expect players that do that sort of thing to gravitate towards you. While not of the popular opinion, sadly, I wish mudsex was fade-only, If only because week-old lovers spawning jealously plots and committing suicide over dumb shit makes me wanna dropkick my computer. I also know that if mudsex was fade-only in Armageddon, we'd lose half of our playerbase.
I know Majikal.
Thats why I mudsex so much.
IN HOPES IT IS YOU
Fun fact. It's ALWAYS me. ;D
HAWT!
EDIT: It's usually me though, thanks for inspiring Jihelu to mudsex indiscriminately.
The highest trend I've seen in Armageddon so far is that yeah, male PCs/players definitely try to hit on the opposite sex a lot, and at times I've seen/taken it to really bad levels. Nevertheless, I have no need to get off to sex text. Almost, if not all of my characters have been male, and I can say that I didn't try to make every single one buy a whore for the night or get laid with the busty, thickly laid woman every time I log on. What I see by what everyone's said so far in this thread is that in Armageddon, lots of the players (the majority being males like myself) actually do get off to this, and because of that, it just makes the Arm community look like a bunch of fat snobs with nothing to do but to get off to white text on a black screen.
Quote from: deathkamon on August 05, 2016, 02:32:46 AM
... a bunch of fat snobs with nothing to do but [to] get off to white text on a black screen.
I'm not fat.
I must confess to furiously masturbating in the midst of RPTs. This likely explains why most of my PCs are short lived, but I can't resist that white on black text.
QuoteIf you have an mdesc that reads like a slutty romance novel and you have an sdesc that screams f-me, whelp, expect players that do that sort of thing to gravitate towards you.
My first character ever was female, and was described in a very masculine way because setting. She was hit on so often that it still became annoying. One guy even ran up to her when she was wounded, and then asked if she wanted to be his fuck-buddy. The timing of that question made me suspicious that he'd chosen her because of that. Thankfully he didn't do anything when she said no. (And I didn't know about the no-rape rule at the time, so I had no idea he wasn't allowed to press the matter if it had gone in that direction.)
It doesn't happen just to attractive characters.
I once made a stunning female character. At least, I thought she was, she didn't have those f-me words, like busty or curved or anything like that, but definitely good looking. I was flirted with enough to annoy me... enough in this case was 2-3 times over about 2 IC years. That's all it took, a couple separate characters with advances in the vein of:
Quote"Hey babe want to see my big dick?" "Are you sure? I'm a real strong lover." "Fine, I would definitely rock your known world, but whatever, bitch."
So, I was annoyed. It was very satisfying seeing those characters on the corpse pile. It sucks, but I still wouldn't make a rule saying that cheesy, stupid, lewd, persistent advances weren't allowed. I just kind of pity the people who think that might work, or that seek gratification from the game that way. It's, frankly, pathetic and reminds me off those sex chat-rooms that were popular when I was 12-13.
I don't really know what my point is. Sometimes people can do things that annoy me, but I don't think there should be a rule against it. Instead, we as a player-base, should murder the fuck out of those people..
One time in Tuluk (nuff said but I'll continue anyway)..
I created a character who had a virtual history, a virtual mom, brother, boyfriend. Living, but "behind the scenes." She had a virtual home she went to, virtual floors to clean, virtual life that happened when I was logged out of the game.
I had people insist that they needed to meet her boyfriend. They didn't ask to meet her mom, or her sibling, only her boyfriend. They were challenging the boyfriend's existence. Since he was never in the room with her when they showed up, they didn't believe she had one. I couldn't produce him, obviously, because he was virtual. But I created him *specifically* so that she had a built-in excuse to not be interested in romance. She already had romance, and her romance was fulfilling.
It didn't stop people from challenging her on it though, and THAT bugged the shit out of me.
When I play characters who are disinterested in sex, the usual response is that my character is either lying, or the other PC will take it as a personal goal to change my PC's mind.
When I play characters interested in the same sex, the usual response from males is that they will make it a goal to change my PC's mind.
When I play characters interested in the opposite sex, the usual response from females is that they will make it a goal to change my PC's mind.
Do you notice a pattern here?
There really needs to be some kind of "enough, change the subject please this is creepy on an OOC level" code-phrase or something, so that the players know that they're pushing a little too hard in that direction. There are plenty of other players you can play that kind of RP game with, who would be happy willing participants.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 08:21:34 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 04, 2016, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 04, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.
I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.
This probably isn't going to change until men stop finding women attractive.
If you can figure out how to change that, then you will fix your problem.
Until then, you are just dealing with reality.
There's the thing. This isn't reality. This is Zalanthas, a world populated by giant bugs, elfs, and bald dwarves and then a few things from the real world.
I come here to escape reality, I don't want to logon and feel like all I did was put on some Zalanthas Goggles.
In Zalanthas men also find women attractive.
Again, the only way this is going to change is if that stops happening.
Some things are a reality both IRL, and in game.
It's like how humans in game breathe air, and in the real world, they also breathe air.
When you figure out how to change something like that, you will have fixed your problem.
Until then, that's the reality you are in both in the game and in real life..
::)
All I really want to say is, I understand where BR is coming from. I really wish this thing wasn't so polarizing, because it's more complex than that. It's not really a thing where it happens all the time or it's as simple as report it or kill the offending character. It's right there in the title, flirtacious bothering. It just can be a nuisance sometimes.
Think of it this way, how would you feel if some random guy said certain sexual things to your mother or sister? Now extend that to Zalanthas where some random guy can invade your mother or sister's mind with certain sexual things. Uncomfortable yet? I understand that yes, you're playing a creep or a lech, that's fine. But really, one or two times is all you really need to get that across. More than that and it starts to become a thing that feels a little uncomfortable on an ooc level.
I don't think anybody is saying don't do it if it's a part of your character. Just have enough empathy for the person on the other side of the screen to do it sparingly.
Quote from: Desertman on August 05, 2016, 08:30:06 AM
In Zalanthas men also find women attractive.
Again, the only way this is going to change is if that stops happening.
Attraction and harassment aren't the same thing. It is possible to roleplay attraction without being creepy about it.
No it isn't they are both like breathing.
I played a male character (more than one actually that had this happen, but this one specifically more than most) who had a lot of women hit on him. A lot.
I had multiple House family women try and bed this commoner.
I had a noble women suggest it might be a thing she was looking for with him.
The number of common women I had try and bed this character I can't even remember them all.
In more than one instance....they tried for RL months at a time.
He couldn't have business conversations with them, and he was in a position where he basically had to, regularly, without them suggesting he should finally give in and give them the dick.
He also had several female employees....probably more often than not actually....try to bed him. (And he had easily dozens in his lifetime.)
I just never gave them the dick. Not once. (With the exception of one, a single time, as part of a business deal, and of course it was a fade scene.)
Some of them were very persistent.
I will say I found it a bit annoying. The character I was playing was very much into fucking women. In fact, he was a horndog. But, I kept that part of him virtual and came up with IC excuses for why that part of him was always more or less kept virtual. It didn't stop women from throwing repeated advances at him, but, it is what it is.
I know the number of female PC's I had to turn down was AT LEAST in the triple digits, several of them more than once over the life of that character.
It's not like I'm arguing from the position of the guy who wants to creep on your text-vaginas. I don't care about them. I'm not going to come creep on them anytime soon.
My point is this:
This is a video game. It's a video game where for a very long time rape roleplay was allowed with consent. It wasn't until just in recent history that went away. Even then, it did NOT go away because of a question of morality or "feelings". It went away because the playerbase stopped handling it responsibly and it became too much of a workload for staff. It was a staff workload issue. Nothing else. That was clearly stated. That's the game you are playing.
Staff will absolutely step in to fix a situation to the best of their ability if you somehow become OOC'ly threatened by another player's intentions in the game that go beyond just IC, but so long as you are just being IC'ly threatened (and aren't harmed behind your keyboard), and it's not specifically RAPE (not harassment, RAPE), then you just have to toughen up a bit and realize what game you volunteered to play.
By all means, submit requests. Do what you feel you need to do. But understand the game that you are playing and where it comes from.
(One day I will post the report I sent to staff where I basically said, "Holy shit can the vagina stop trying to eat me.", more or less. It was a pretty good one.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW--7ZmXrXo
Quote from: Yam on August 05, 2016, 08:59:01 AM
No it isn't they are both like breathing.
That's not what is being said, and you know that. That's the only response this bait is going to get.
Sorry I just find this awkward and try to combat it with humor.
Quote from: Yam on August 05, 2016, 09:01:58 AM
Sorry I just find this awkward and try to combat it with humor.
No worries. I'm trying my best to explain "That I don't want the game to get softer.", without looking like some weirdo creepy rapist wanna-be, which as you can see, is awkward as shit.
That's my only goal and my only point really. It has little to do with sexual harassment.
Yeah, I can see how those examples could get quite annoying. Possibly the most annoying thing for me was playing a rinthi c-elf pursued by the Arm, gemmers, and just about EVERYONE who should be looking the other way because getting caught would be a death sentence... honestly I was too busy laughing at the sillyness of it all and finding creative ways to say "Um, not just no, but HELL no." to get pissed off. You send the tall, muscular man a psionic message "Put down the spice pipe, Amos, or at least give up on the agross, because there's NO way that's happening."
Generally, those problems seem to sort themselves, not always, but seems to be the case the majority of the time. In the meantime, sorry it bothers you, but some players will do and say things of better quality than others. This goes not just for being propositioned, but anything really. Can't think of any non-sexual annoyances I've seen to mention without needlessly calling a player or three out who've likely improved and stepped up their game, or moved on, or vaguebooking more recent characters, which isn't very fair or considerate to those players. Some players who routinely get on people's nerves have, once I've included them in on what I'm doing, have turned out to make for surprisingly interesting story elements. It's not simple enough for me to look at one act, or even a set of actions, and determine if I should condemn them just because there's something off-putting about it.
I think a lot of us are talking past each other. I am totally cool with some IC sexual bothering. It's just when it starts to turn into your character and your RP being used as someone's OOC sex toy and there's not much you can realistically do about it, that's when it's iffy for me. Not so iffy that I think there should be a hard and fast rule about it, necessarily. Just iffy enough that it's worth having a dialogue about.
I don't think anyone is advocating for a softer game world here. Hell I advocate murdering anyone who annoys you in character. I think Beethoven put it pretty well. Paraphrasing, there's a difference between being ICly forward and being OOCly creepy.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 04, 2016, 08:13:05 PM
I'm a female. As I said before, I play both sexes.
There are PCs who hit on my characters. That's fine. I do not need to be coddled and protected from my characters being flirted with, even aggressively.
Then there are players who seem to play the game only to get off, and they have put my characters in RP situations where they cannot realistically escape from being sexualized and used for that player's gratification. That's when I feel sexually harassed. When I dread logging in because I know I'm going to get sucked into somebody's sexual banter and games and I do not feel comfortable with it but ICly I feel it is not realistic to do anything about it, that's where the line is for me.
Quote from: Yam on August 05, 2016, 09:11:13 AM
I don't think anyone is advocating for a softer game world here. Hell I advocate murdering anyone who annoys you in character. I think Beethoven put it pretty well. Paraphrasing, there's a difference between being ICly forward and being OOCly creepy.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 04, 2016, 08:13:05 PM
I'm a female. As I said before, I play both sexes.
There are PCs who hit on my characters. That's fine. I do not need to be coddled and protected from my characters being flirted with, even aggressively.
Then there are players who seem to play the game only to get off, and they have put my characters in RP situations where they cannot realistically escape from being sexualized and used for that player's gratification. That's when I feel sexually harassed. When I dread logging in because I know I'm going to get sucked into somebody's sexual banter and games and I do not feel comfortable with it but ICly I feel it is not realistic to do anything about it, that's where the line is for me.
I'm not sure what to tell this player other than they aren't being raped, and if they are, they should report it so whoever is doing it can get banned.
If the other player who is making them uncomfortable isn't breaking any rules, they aren't breaking any rules. I don't care if it's sexual harassment, murder, or just being annoying....no rules have been broken.
That's the game you volunteered to play.
Submit a request, maybe staff will champion your personal cause, and maybe they won't, but who you are complaining about isn't as of now the issue, because they haven't broken a single rule.
And my point is that I don't want further rules implemented going down the rabbit hole of, "We need to ensure people who need a softer environment get a softer environment.".
I did actually murder the PC who was doing this to me. I still wonder if it was justified ICly. Certainly it felt OOCly good and it made the game worth playing again.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 05, 2016, 09:17:22 AM
I did actually murder the PC who was doing this to me. I still wonder if it was justified ICly. Certainly it felt OOCly good and it made the game worth playing again.
If IC'ly your character didn't like it.....or your character liked their boots.....or your character just woke up feeling in a bad mood....then yes....stab away with gusto. :)
Quote from: flurry on August 05, 2016, 08:54:15 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 05, 2016, 08:30:06 AM
In Zalanthas men also find women attractive.
Again, the only way this is going to change is if that stops happening.
Attraction and harassment aren't the same thing. It is possible to roleplay attraction without being creepy about it.
I don't disagree. I'm not sure if you are trying to disagree with me....because if you are....you are disagreeing with something I never said....or if you are just making a statement of your own.
Either way, I absolutely agree with you?
I don't think there should be a rule. I just think it's something that could be talked about with certain players. I know I've played a lecherous cad before that constantly hit on people, male or female, whatever. (I think it kind of gained me a reputation of being mudsex-obsessed, which I'm really not.) I don't think I did anything wrong, although I'm sure I annoyed some people. So that's not what I'm talking about.
I believe it's worth discussing because there are some players out there who do bridge that OOC line and make players feel harassed. I don't think it's against the rules and I don't think a rule could be made that effectively separates the people just being IC and the people being OOC creepers. In my opinion those players should listen and make an effort to be respectful to other players.
Flirting to the extent that it acquires sexual overtones could fall under the consent rule. Whether it does or not will depend on individual situations and how "far" it goes. Most likely it usually won't except in the most extreme cases. Clearly one can see how an overarching judgment on this phenomenon would get muddled as every situation is different. In the future, to those who feel unsure or uncomfortable, submit a player complaint and we'll look into it on a case-by-case basis. Describing recent IC situations here does no one any good.
In general, try to be cognizant of other players. Yes, the rules let PCs treat each other however they want. However it does not let players treat each other however they want. If what your PC is doing to another PC is meant to affect that PC's player, then it's against the spirit of the game. We have established this through the consent rule, through prohibiting revenge PCs, banning the use of the OOC command for frivolous reasons, and other things. Staff make the final decision on whether behavior was directed toward the PC or the player.
As we all know; this game invokes emotions. When we lose IC loved ones, we cry. When we achieve a new rank in our clan or some other thing we've been working towards, we smile and feel that pride. Or I do, anyway. ... When we get harassed in game we get angry. When we get sexually harassed in game. We also react accordingly. That's fair enough, right?
The argument, I have gathered is:
- People shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable during roleplay
VS
- This is armageddon. Get ready to feel all of the emotions, suckuh!! (slight exaggeration)
I enjoy the idea of playing out every possible scene, but I'm also very comfortable with myself as well as others and understand that I'm only playing a game. There is no clear line (for me) about what I would and wouldn't do compared to this game and real life, but I can say honestly, that I know I wouldn't be hurting people. In game, of course. (I don't play characters with those personalities) -- but other people do. And they show little or no mercy as I would. Which I commend.
I get upset when people aren't as comfortable with themselves or take the game much more seriously than a game and then use the game as a tool to carry out their wills. They may use the internet and the game world as a tool to gain not only enjoyment; fun and lust -- but they may even use them as tools to gain a - or a sense of revenge, retribution... justice.
Myself. I can go through an experience and not change or be affected in any other way than gained knowledge. Well that's not true. I do use my knowledge gained in real life. For example: While I never imagined I would ever cry for someone I cared for dying, I did so. And it was just a dog. When she died from parvo right in front of me, man... it was one of the saddest moments of my life and I cried deeply. -- In game when someone cared for fades into drov in my grasp, bam.
Sometimes I don't think this game'll make me feel the intensity of emotions I would in real life, but that's untrue. For me at least. -- and I'm fine with this.
Others may not enjoy going through certain scenes. Maybe they'll be affected, maybe they won't. Maybe they have been. At any rate, it's clear that they're uncomfortable and don't like being sexually harassed. In the real world sexual harassment is a problem. (the current idea of romance is a problem, but another conversation)
In the real world little can be done to stop a person from doing these things. In character there are even less things. ... or maybe there are more things.
anyone
What are some suggestions to stop a person from doing something you don't want them to IN GAME?
and what are some some suggestions to stop a person from doing something you don't want them to OUT OF GAME?
Eh. People are sexual aggressors. It's worse with some pcs than others, to be on the receiving end of it.
I don't much mind the constant stream of advances. I mind more that there's a tendency with female pcs I've played over male pcs I've played, to have people use sexuality and speculation on their sex lives to EFFECTIVELY slander the character in question and cause actual fallout.
THAT is OOC leaking in. That is a bias against liberated female sexuality in game, which should not exist, as it's never existed for the male pcs I've played, who've been the aggressor more often than not. THAT is what I mind.
The constant barrage of advances is a shit sandwich. It's one that has a root cause that comes down to tits, most of the time. I wouldn't say it's upsetting or unrealistic, inconvenient at times perhaps. But it's the same way in real life.
I don't like the fact that I've seen smear campaigns center around more than one female pc of mine based sheerly on their (SPECULATED, as it's often as not untrue) sex lives, which actually stick, and result in talkings to. That is problematic af.
But nah, if you wanna play a creeper, by all means, creep away. And when it's IC for one of my pcs to do the same, they usually will.
In game:
Give a firm, clear message, then insults, sabotage, start rumors (true or false), pay elves to rob them stupid, report to raider band each time Amos goes salting, eventually murder if it still doesn't stop. Or you could just start with murder, no rules against that, just a matter of personal preference when dealing with such situations. There's also ignoring it, which I'm assuming isn't working in some cases, or you could drag them off for some pity sex and thoroughly gross them out after consent (though this could backfire). If it crosses the IC/OOC barrier and you honestly feel threatened IRL, file a complaint. If you've had player Y snuffed several times, or they've just kept making characters SPECIFICALLY to bother YOU, staff can look at records and figure out if this is the case.
Honestly, getting hung up on one player is kind of silly when there's a whole game filled with interesting characters and situations to explore. I have trouble understanding the creep mindset knowing this is the case. Sometimes it can seem like someone's creeping on you when that's not actually the case and it's simple coincidence. Staff can either determine this, or at least make a note to keep an eye out for future "coincidences".
Out of game:
Document everything, report it to your boss if it's the workplace, if it's your boss that's the problem, go to their boss. If that doesn't work, go to corporate. If you get fired, call a lawyer and rip them a new one. My mother had the most of this kind of trouble with another woman she was working with, after she turned down her proposition. This resulted in years of this other woman's workplace clique trying to ruin my mother's reputation. Eventually, my mom got her and all her friends busted down for this crap. It sucks, but you're not helpless. Keep a log of everything you notice, and try to keep it accurate and include witnesses who can say, when asked, if they saw it or not. RL scenarios with obsessive creeps can quickly become disturbing and even life-threatening, so make SURE you keep all your information together.
I've heard it said that often times, a restraining order can only serve to agitate things further, I'm unsure of the validity of this, though I am sure that in some cases, it can be true. Mace, stun guns, and firearms can certainly be effective, but you'll want to be trained in their usage and know in which situations they will be useful or warranted, and keep in mind an attacker can turn them against you. Mind games can help, I once outcreeped a creep to the point he was running away across an empty field shouting for help by the time I was done speaking. It sucks, but if you have a stalker, moving can be an effective, though undesirable option. Take up a martial art or some other form of unarmed self-defense, guy grabs your wrist and tells you you're not going anywhere? Make him regret it by twisting and snapping his arm in several places. Break a finger or three, just don't go too overboard or there could be legal complications.
Chances are, in a very threatening situation, calling the police won't be immediately effective, which is when it needs to be effective. The most important thing is to escape the situation, ensure loved ones are safe, and take further preventative measures. If you can fully immobilize your attacker then that makes it easier for police to take them into custody, or file them in a morgue where they can admire the effectiveness of a .357 sig hollowpoint to the dome.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 05, 2016, 09:51:06 AM
Eh. People are sexual aggressors. It's worse with some pcs than others, to be on the receiving end of it.
I don't much mind the constant stream of advances. I mind more that there's a tendency with female pcs I've played over male pcs I've played, to have people use sexuality and speculation on their sex lives to EFFECTIVELY slander the character in question and cause actual fallout.
THAT is OOC leaking in. That is a bias against liberated female sexuality in game, which should not exist, as it's never existed for the male pcs I've played, who've been the aggressor more often than not. THAT is what I mind.
The constant barrage of advances is a shit sandwich. It's one that has a root cause that comes down to tits, most of the time. I wouldn't say it's upsetting or unrealistic, inconvenient at times perhaps. But it's the same way in real life.
I don't like the fact that I've seen smear campaigns center around more than one female pc of mine based sheerly on their (SPECULATED, as it's often as not untrue) sex lives, which actually stick, and result in talkings to. That is problematic af.
But nah, if you wanna play a creeper, by all means, creep away. And when it's IC for one of my pcs to do the same, they usually will.
I've had this happen too while playing straight female PCs, whether aggressor or no. Seems sometimes like my PC is expected to conform to RL cultural expectations for a woman, and if they're thought to be promiscuous, then yeah, someone tries to start up a smear campaign. I'm like, wait, wut? Read the quickstart guide, newbs. This isn't the bible belt, this is Zalanthas, and there's nothing "nasty" about my character in relation to the environment they're surrounded by.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 05, 2016, 09:51:06 AM
Eh. People are sexual aggressors. It's worse with some pcs than others, to be on the receiving end of it.
I don't much mind the constant stream of advances. I mind more that there's a tendency with female pcs I've played over male pcs I've played, to have people use sexuality and speculation on their sex lives to EFFECTIVELY slander the character in question and cause actual fallout.
THAT is OOC leaking in. That is a bias against liberated female sexuality in game, which should not exist, as it's never existed for the male pcs I've played, who've been the aggressor more often than not. THAT is what I mind.
The constant barrage of advances is a shit sandwich. It's one that has a root cause that comes down to tits, most of the time. I wouldn't say it's upsetting or unrealistic, inconvenient at times perhaps. But it's the same way in real life.
I don't like the fact that I've seen smear campaigns center around more than one female pc of mine based sheerly on their (SPECULATED, as it's often as not untrue) sex lives, which actually stick, and result in talkings to. That is problematic af.
But nah, if you wanna play a creeper, by all means, creep away. And when it's IC for one of my pcs to do the same, they usually will.
I've also seen this more than once and have tried my best to "hint" that a woman can fuck as many wieners as she wants in Zalanthas and nobody should/would give a shit.
To be fair every time I have hinted it was odd that they thought it was "slanderous", they always immediately corrected their error.
Not to derail further but what I DO like is when I see people make a big deal about fucking elves, breed, magickers, rinthers, or other undesirables.
It's not ok to say, "Amber sleeps with everyone! What a slut!".
It's fine to say, "Amber sleeps with any dirty thing with a dick! How trashy. Did you hear she fucked a rinther AND a breed? What a skank.".
Okay, I'm going to throw my opinion out there.
I play a very assorted lot of PC's, and since I don't really communicate with any players outside of the GDB, I'm guessing most players don't know who is playing my char. That said. when I play a female char, the attention I get it quantifiably different than the attention I get with a male char. The creepiness and disturbing quality of attention I get when I play pretty or young female chars often upsets me.
The comparisons to real life behavior versus in game behavior should not be considered fair points, because the real world is infinitely more harsh, less respectful, and less mature than we as players should strive to be to each other. I do not suggest sending in a report every time sexual harassment crosses into creepy territory, because the sheer workload it would dump on staff might make it be banned, simply as a result of how irresponsibly -some- and only -some- of the players of Arm handle these things. However, when it comes to 'ooc'ly creepy behavior, by all means, yes, Please, do as Nergal suggested, send in a request. (And I say please, because there are people who won't for a variety of reasons, and the scale should be balanced)
Now, in response to the original post by BR, yes, there is an amount of seeming gender discrimination in who gets flirted with, and who gets chased, and who gets harassed, because as multiple people have pointed out, they're being played by players who have RL cultures and experience affecting their play. I personally think we should try rather hard to remove those biases, but not in a let's set up rules and regulations for it, more of a personal challenge for each of us. If you've been operating under the assumption that these things swing both way, I hope that I've been playing examples of how that is true. I think I've tried hard to break gender norms. I think I've also played a pretty damn good creeper without becoming ooc'ly creepy, but that was more of a lampoon character, mean to be a caricature.
I do not, I repeat, DO NOT want a softer world. I want creepers, freak and asshole lining the filthy, grimy streets. I do want it to swing both ways, and have creepers pick out old PC's instead of just peeking into the bar and typing 'l youth, l youth, l teen,' and walking out because those were all male.
I do not want people to have to constantly deal with unwanted sexual advances. I do want them to have to deal with constant advances, sales pitches, death threats, people trying to hook them up with their virtual cousin, et cetera. I want the harassment to be more spread out, if only to provide more opportunities for roleplay, instead of the exact same types of behavior over and over. (albeit seemingly. We all have different experiences in game)
I want more people to nickname a pretty male PC character 'dick' or 'buttcheeks', instead of only having to witness the fifteenth female pc be nicknamed 'tits'.
I'm certain you all agree with me, because that' how my mind works. Now, I'm off to be the change, by being a creepy older woman who constantly hits on any teens or youths that are male. I'm fully prepared for my application to be rejected on the basis of 'No, just... please don't. Not again.'
I response to Chettaman:
IC ways?
-Well, as much as I hate to say it, break character. And I don't mean go ooc, I mean act differently than your char ever has. Go the fuck off on them, because your PC can have a snapping point no one else has reached.
-Give them an expensive gift in private and tell them you'll fuck them later. Contact a soldier, empty your bank account for a bribe, and report said gift stolen. Let the fucking begin.
-Suicide. Take you your knife, wish up staff assistance, and bleed out in their arms, your dying words, 'If...only... you were more persistent.'
OOC ways?
-Does it break the rules, is it a persistent problem? Report.
-No? Might need to be more clear, are they doing something you don't want them to, and they're doing it out of game? Report.
Are they doing something you don't want them do In Game, and you want to want to stop them by doing something, out of game? Don't.
Edited to remove years of cynicism.
I also fail to understand this.
His OOC actions are creeping me out.
What ooc actions? What did the creeper do OOCly that creeped you out IRL? If he was consistently in character and never spoke to you via OOC means (be that ooc command, or aim, or whatever), then how can you possibly be affected by this IRL?
If someone in the bar, always punches you in the face, regardless of their and your genders, does it mean you can do "nothing" about it except OOCly ask them to stop?
This is seriously the same thing. A character continuously does something that you do not like. You do not like it. Period. It doesnt matter if it's sexual harassment, or sexual innuendo, or non-sexual harassment, or non-sexual banter. It doesn't matter. Point is. They do it and you don't like it. Then get them to fucking stop. Don't break character and ask them to cease, break their character's neck instead!
I had a character promise another character to hang them by the leg off the statue on Hathors, and turn their slumped open mouth into a pot for pee and ... various other things, for anyone who walked past that intersection.
I did that with the direct intention of creeping the fuck out of that person. I wanted my words to be graphic and shocking, and fear inducing. To demonstrate the sheer unhingeness of my character and the depravity he is willing to perform towards that character. That particular instance, it was a male character. But with all this conversation, should I have 'played safe' and 'not' made that threat if the target of my ire happened to be female?
If you fail to understand it, it almost certainly isn't you and you have been lucky enough not to experience it.
That argument is about as infallible as "We are privy to more information about this then you are. Therefore we know we're right, and we know you're wrong. So let's come down and discuss this until you agree with all of our statements."
Alrighty-then!
If that's what you think I'm saying, then okay, but I'm really not. I just don't think it's fair to share negative details about other players and the things they have done and said on the GDB.
I played a female PC one time (Githclit) and she wasn't bad looking. I think maybe people were afraid of her so they didn't hit on her. So in my control experience, I didn't encounter the problems mentioned in this thread.
However, I have been witness to them (especially in the Boy's Club of the Byn) but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies.
So I definitely agree with the case by case basis...Honestly, if it was 'to the point of harrasment', like every time you log in this guy contacts you and sends you images of dicks and talks about fucking your skull, i'd report it. But anything less than that, i'd just plot their painful murder.
This sort of encourages me to hit on more male PCs as a male PC, to balance the scales.
"Hey sexy. Is that a sword on your belt or are you just happy to see me?"
Like Talia said, most (if not all) people in this thread are mature enough to know when they're pushing too far to the point that it might make others uncomfortable without adding anything to the game, so I'm not really sure what this thread will achieve except making the playerbase in general look like a bunch of horny creepers. If you're playing this game in the hope that you're going to get some text sex and carry this relationship OOCly afterward then I doubt that you'll understand what some of the (mostly female?) players are trying to explain.
If something makes you uncomfortable, discuss it with the Staff.
Everyone else, no one is trying to make the game PG 13.
I will lock this thread now that it has achieved it's purpose.
Edit: Dammit, I thought I was writing this under my Lauramars account, sorry!
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 11:58:00 AM
Like Talia said, most (if not all) people in this thread are mature enough to know when they're pushing too far to the point that it might make others uncomfortable without adding anything to the game, so I'm not really sure what this thread will achieve except making the playerbase in general look like a bunch of horny creepers. If you're playing this game in the hope that you're going to get some text sex and carry this relationship OOCly afterward then I doubt that you'll understand what some of the (mostly female?) players are trying to explain.
If something makes you uncomfortable, discuss it with the Staff.
Everyone else, no one is trying to make the game PG 13.
I will lock this thread now that it has achieved it's purpose.
Edit: Dammit, I thought I was writing this under my Lauramars account, sorry!
Nice.
I'll change pretty much all the details so you can understand where I'm coming from without me specifically talking smack on anyone.
Let's say you're playing a dirt-poor depressed mutant woman who desperately wants to be loved and accepted. (I'm only not making her a breed because then you'd at least have an excuse to shove him away.) A guy starts giving your PC all these compliments and paying her a ridiculous amount of obsidian not only to sleep with him, but also basically to pretend to be his girlfriend. Of course she accepts--what sad, pathetic shell of a woman wouldn't? He is kind of a spam-hunter so he has a ridiculous amount of money. He offers her raw goods for her craft and buys her a place to stay. In exchange, all she has to do is put up with him using her to indulge his RL fetish. He attempts to change your PC's appearance to conform to his OOC "type."
It doesn't matter how much you emote how gross your PC is, or what a creepy dirty mutant she is--he ignores it. You're pretty sure if she revealed she was a defiler right then and there, he'd ignore that, too, or say he liked it.
As someone who is in a much more desperate situation than you, your PC would of course put up with all this so that she can get her needs fulfilled. After all, this is supposed to be a place where people kill each other over a sip of water. How much would someone like the PC I mentioned be willing to do for SIGNIFICANTLY more than that? However, you IRL are not in that kind of situation, so the only reason you are putting up with it is because it makes IC sense. You are trying to stay in-character, so you're trapped with him. That is what I mean when I say someone can use you or take advantage of your roleplay. A lot of times fading any kind of sexual scenes drives those people away, but sometimes it doesn't. And maybe you're not fading because you're trying to convey to him how nasty your PC is, but it all seems to fall on deaf ears.
If he is constantly contacting you and dirty-talking or trying to pay you to meet up with him and you feel you do not have a justification to turn him down regularly, it makes you want to stop logging in, or worse, store. Or you could act OOCly so you can get rid of him. In my case, I did the latter. I can't regret it because I was having zero fun and after that I started having fun again. But I know that it didn't make 100% IC sense.
That's the kind of BS I'm talking about. And I think staff was watching and felt bad for me. I didn't send in a player complaint because it wasn't against the rules, but I do hope that players like that can read this and realize they're ruining the fun.
On the matter of creeping:
I feel IC creepers and harassment add a lot to the world and story.
I feel OOCly motivated creeping and harassment are offputting and make me not want to log on.
The problem is that I can't always tell the difference between the two.
Quote from: Narf on August 05, 2016, 12:11:03 PM
The problem is that I can't always tell the difference between the two.
You know what? Me either. And if I can't tell the difference between IC and OOC, from a staff perspective, then I'm going to attribute the motivation to OOC. It is OK for players, also, to stop giving other players the benefit of the doubt sometimes and just go with the Occam's razor of explanations.
If something is creepy to you as a player, then it's creepy. If you want to take care of the problem IC, good; if you want to talk to staff about it OOC, good. Just don't let yourselves keep getting creeped out without doing/saying something about it, players.
(This is my own policy on staff, too. If something weirds me out, I talk to someone about it. None of us is here for a bad time and no one is getting paid to be here, either players or staff. Speaking out makes a better environment for all of us.)
Quote from: Talia on August 05, 2016, 12:18:22 PM
Quote from: Narf on August 05, 2016, 12:11:03 PM
The problem is that I can't always tell the difference between the two.
You know what? Me either. And if I can't tell the difference between IC and OOC, from a staff perspective, then I'm going to attribute the motivation to OOC. It is OK for players, also, to stop giving other players the benefit of the doubt sometimes and just go with the Occam's razor of explanations.
If something is creepy to you as a player, then it's creepy. If you want to take care of the problem IC, good; if you want to talk to staff about it OOC, good. Just don't let yourselves keep getting creeped out without doing/saying something about it, players.
(This is my own policy on staff, too. If something weirds me out, I talk to someone about it. None of us is here for a bad time and no one is getting paid to be here, either players or staff. Speaking out makes a better environment for all of us.)
+1
Quote from: Dar on August 05, 2016, 11:38:01 AM
I had a character promise another character to hang them by the leg off the statue on Hathors, and turn their slumped open mouth into a pot for pee and ... various other things, for anyone who walked past that intersection.
I did that with the direct intention of creeping the fuck out of that person. I wanted my words to be graphic and shocking, and fear inducing. To demonstrate the sheer unhingeness of my character and the depravity he is willing to perform towards that character. That particular instance, it was a male character. But with all this conversation, should I have 'played safe' and 'not' made that threat if the target of my ire happened to be female?
I agree with the rest of the post in that if someone has been bothering you while completely in-character, that you should keep your reactions IC, as well. At least, for most cases, though Beethoven's example is a good one, and one of those (hopefully rare) circumstances where you may have to take OOC action.
The point of this thread, as far as I know, was how female PCs seem to be treated differently versus males, when flirting and such. So, really, it's about the supposed lack of the whole "no gender discrimination" thing, and I'm not sure how you gathered why you should play it safe around female PCs. That example you'd given differs from sexual harassment, or the kind of harassment people have mentioned in this thread.
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 11:58:00 AMI will lock this thread now that it has achieved it's purpose.
Edit: Dammit, I thought I was writing this under my Lauramars account, sorry!
Pfff nice try. Everybody knows I would never incorrectly punctuate the possessive form of 'it'!!
now if you'll excuse me I'm going to take my girlfriend swing dancing and win a trophy
Quote from: LauraMars on August 05, 2016, 12:29:29 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 11:58:00 AMI will lock this thread now that it has achieved it's purpose.
Edit: Dammit, I thought I was writing this under my Lauramars account, sorry!
Pfff nice try. Everybody knows I would never incorrectly punctuate the possessive form of 'it'!!
now if you'll excuse me I'm going to take my girlfriend swing dancing and win a trophy
I thought we had a wedding to prepare for ???
Back on topic - I've got nothing.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 05, 2016, 12:03:14 PM
I'll change pretty much all the details so you can understand where I'm coming from without me specifically talking smack on anyone.
Let's say you're playing a dirt-poor depressed mutant woman who desperately wants to be loved and accepted. (I'm only not making her a breed because then you'd at least have an excuse to shove him away.) A guy starts giving your PC all these compliments and paying her a ridiculous amount of obsidian not only to sleep with him, but also basically to pretend to be his girlfriend. Of course she accepts--what sad, pathetic shell of a woman wouldn't? He is kind of a spam-hunter so he has a ridiculous amount of money. He offers her raw goods for her craft and buys her a place to stay. In exchange, all she has to do is put up with him using her to indulge his RL fetish. He attempts to change your PC's appearance to conform to his OOC "type."
It doesn't matter how much you emote how gross your PC is, or what a creepy dirty mutant she is--he ignores it. You're pretty sure if she revealed she was a defiler right then and there, he'd ignore that, too, or say he liked it.
As someone who is in a much more desperate situation than you, your PC would of course put up with all this so that she can get her needs fulfilled. After all, this is supposed to be a place where people kill each other over a sip of water. How much would someone like the PC I mentioned be willing to do for SIGNIFICANTLY more than that? However, you IRL are not in that kind of situation, so the only reason you are putting up with it is because it makes IC sense. You are trying to stay in-character, so you're trapped with him. That is what I mean when I say someone can use you or take advantage of your roleplay. A lot of times fading any kind of sexual scenes drives those people away, but sometimes it doesn't. And maybe you're not fading because you're trying to convey to him how nasty your PC is, but it all seems to fall on deaf ears.
If he is constantly contacting you and dirty-talking or trying to pay you to meet up with him and you feel you do not have a justification to turn him down regularly, it makes you want to stop logging in, or worse, store. Or you could act OOCly so you can get rid of him. In my case, I did the latter. I can't regret it because I was having zero fun and after that I started having fun again. But I know that it didn't make 100% IC sense.
That's the kind of BS I'm talking about. And I think staff was watching and felt bad for me. I didn't send in a player complaint because it wasn't against the rules, but I do hope that players like that can read this and realize they're ruining the fun.
Damn.
I think you are confused about what is acceptable.
You seem to believe that if you are OOC'ly uncomfortable it is against the rules for you to "go against what your character would do" in order to get yourself out of that situation.
That's not the case.
You are ABSOLUTELY ALLOWED to tell the guy above to "Fuck off. I've decided I don't like this anymore. I don't have to give you a reason why. I've decided it, and that's that.".
That doesn't mean he will.
But, you ARE NOT obligated to continue to play with this person and "let them" continue to creep you out by playing with them because you feel "I have to because my character would.".
If you continue to play with them even though they are OOC'ly freaking you out because you feel some sort of obligation to the "integrity of correct roleplay" then you are taking this far too seriously.
Your OOC feelings should come first.
If you are having trouble coming up with a good excuse for your character to decide they don't want to be around this guy anymore....ask staff for help.....but in general, it doesn't even have to be creative.
To be fair in your example above you are also making a A LOT of assumptions about this other player's motivations and a lot of assumptions about that player in general based entirely upon the actions of their character. You even went so far as to assume their OOC type behind the keyboard. You don't know any of that. You have no idea. These are just your assumptions, and they could be entirely wrong. For all you know he's trying to change your character into the spitting image of his mother that abused him and once he gets you to that point he will murder you horribly to act out on his broken mental state like some sicko serial killer.....
(That would actually be an interesting PC. The guy who finds some hapless mutant girl and uses his money and influence to slowly turn her into the image of his abusive mother so that in the end he can murder her and act out on his troubled past like the nut he is.....I would kudos the shit out of that.)
Again, you don't have to play with him if you are OOC'ly creeped out, and if you continue to in this sort of situation because you think, "my character would so I have to", then you can only really blame yourself.
(I don't mean YOU as in -YOU-, I mean "people in general/all players" btw. The idea someone would be OOC'ly creeped out for an extended period of time sexually by another PC just to "uphold the sanctity of the game" is....scary and weird.)
Quote from: Reiloth on August 05, 2016, 11:50:17 AM
.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...
I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....
That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door. In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal." In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases. It really is. This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.
This thread is a minefield of eggshells, holy crap.
As I said, Dman, that's what I eventually did. But I shouldn't have to break character to get out of a trap like that tailored to tickle someone's OOC fancies and fetishes that they display again and again on character after character. I know I'm not the only one who would feel trapped in a situation like that.
Quote from: valeria on August 05, 2016, 12:38:54 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 05, 2016, 11:50:17 AM
.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...
I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....
That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door. In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal." In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases. It really is. This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.
Reiloth is not in the game and has no obligation as such to adhere to those standards.
Also, when I call someone a sissy I don't mean, "You are a girl.".....I mean they are a little sissy.
It's all in how you use it.
(If I want to tell someone they hit like a little girl, I'll do that to, and have....because usually....little girls don't hit very hard....because that's reality and makes it a pretty good gym insult. *shrug*)
Quote from: Desertman on August 05, 2016, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: valeria on August 05, 2016, 12:38:54 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 05, 2016, 11:50:17 AM
.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...
I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....
That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door. In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal." In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases. It really is. This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.
Reiloth is not in the game and has no obligation as such to adhere to those standards.
I think you missed my point.
Quote from: Desertman on August 05, 2016, 12:46:33 PM
Also, when I call someone a sissy I don't mean, "You are a girl.".....I mean they are a little sissy.
It's all in how you use it.
(If I want to tell someone they hit like a little girl, I'll do that to, and have....because usually....little girls don't hit very hard....because that's reality and makes it a pretty good gym insult. *shrug*)
Since the word means "effeminate man" and comes from the root word 'sister' (in a pejorative sense) it has everything to do with feminine characteristics. When you say someone is a sissy, you
are telling them they hit like a girl. It has everything to do with gender roles and bias. That you're apparently unaware of this illustrates for me that you could very well be using feminizing language as an insult IG and not even know it.
Again. Hard to leave these things at the door.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 05, 2016, 12:46:02 PM
As I said, Dman, that's what I eventually did. But I shouldn't have to break character to get out of a trap like that tailored to tickle someone's OOC fancies and fetishes that they display again and again on character after character. I know I'm not the only one who would feel trapped in a situation like that.
I don't think you should have to.
I think most players should be able to figure out IC ways around things.
But if you feel you have to, go ahead.
Nobody is going to hold it against you.
But, it doesn't need a new game policy surrounding it for the people who can't figure out IC ways out of it, which is really my only point. There doesn't need to be a new rule for this. The rules on this front have gone as far as they need to.
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
This thread is a minefield of eggshells, holy crap.
This made me lol and explains why I couldn't even bother to post anymore.
Seriously. We've now latched onto the word sissy.
Edit: And before -this- gets twisted into cheapening an opinion...yes. I'm pointing out that out of an entire post, all the context was ignored to try and make a point out of one word used contextually.
Quote from: valeria on August 05, 2016, 12:51:57 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 05, 2016, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: valeria on August 05, 2016, 12:38:54 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 05, 2016, 11:50:17 AM
.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...
I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....
That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door. In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal." In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases. It really is. This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.
Reiloth is not in the game and has no obligation as such to adhere to those standards.
I think you missed my point.
Quote from: Desertman on August 05, 2016, 12:46:33 PM
Also, when I call someone a sissy I don't mean, "You are a girl.".....I mean they are a little sissy.
It's all in how you use it.
(If I want to tell someone they hit like a little girl, I'll do that to, and have....because usually....little girls don't hit very hard....because that's reality and makes it a pretty good gym insult. *shrug*)
Since the word means "effeminate man" and comes from the root word 'sister' (in a pejorative sense) it has everything to do with feminine characteristics. When you say someone is a sissy, you are telling them they hit like a girl. It has everything to do with gender roles and bias. That you're apparently unaware of this illustrates for me that you could very well be using feminizing language as an insult IG and not even know it.
Again. Hard to leave these things at the door.
On the average effeminate men are weaker than masculine men.
So, that makes it pretty accurate. You may not like the fact it is accurate, but that makes it no less accurate.
Very few are the effeminate men I've seen where I say, "Yeah, that guys a serious fucking beast.".
It makes it a pretty accurate description of a man who is in fact not very strong.
You may not like the fact that men who are effeminate are on the average not as strong as men who are traditionally masculine, but that is reality.
With that being said, I don't think I have ever used "sissy" in game. If anyone can think of a situation where I used this sort of language in the game, feel free to correct me.
I'll state once again that I also don't believe new rules should be made. I just think it's a discussion that's worth having because "suck it up, this isn't carebaregeddon" is dismissive of people who have had experiences like that.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 12:54:26 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
This thread is a minefield of eggshells, holy crap.
This made me lol and explains why I couldn't even bother to post anymore.
Seriously. We've now latched onto the word sissy.
It's an illustration for why it's practically impossible for people to treat men and women as complete equals (even though the game rules state they are equals). The cultural bias that women are inferior to men is very deeply ingrained to the point where the is pervasive even in the language we're trying to use to communicate with each other to play the game. I'm about as likely to get upset at you for using the word 'sissy' as I am for perpetrating the idea that women who turn down male flirtations are bitches. You can't escape the biases that go into those languages and attitudes, you can only be aware of them and try to mitigate them.
There is some deep cultural bias shit that it's impossible to get rid of in the context of the game. <- This right here is my sole point.
Quote from: valeria on August 05, 2016, 01:02:32 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 12:54:26 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
This thread is a minefield of eggshells, holy crap.
This made me lol and explains why I couldn't even bother to post anymore.
Seriously. We've now latched onto the word sissy.
It's an illustration for why it's practically impossible for people to treat men and women as complete equals (even though the game rules state they are equals). The cultural bias that women are inferior to men is are very deeply ingrained to the point where the is pervasive even in the language we're trying to use to communicate with each other to play the game. I'm about as likely to get upset at you for using the word 'sissy' as I am for perpetrating the idea that women who turn down male flirtations are bitches. You can't escape the biases that go into those languages and attitudes, you can only be aware of them and try to mitigate them.
There is some deep cultural bias shit that it's impossible to get rid of in the context of the game. <- This right here is my sole point.
If your only point is that, "It shouldn't be said in game like this.".
Then we absolutely agree.
I thought you were just calling out Reiloth for saying it on the GDB like he had some in-game obligation here to adhere to those same rules....which he doesn't.
If I misunderstood your intention I apologize.
In-game, yeah, absolutely not acceptable.....recognizing real life reality on the GDB....absolutely fine.
I, too, am very upset that batman t-shirts made more money than batwoman t-shirts.
But that has nothing to do with the word 'sissy' used as an ambush on someone on the GDB who was actually making a point that got completely missed by the fixation.
Quote from: valeria on August 05, 2016, 12:38:54 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on August 05, 2016, 11:50:17 AM
.... but i've also seen women stand up for themselves and make men look like little sissies. ...
I've been trying to avoid posting in this thread, but ....
That you use feminizing language as an insult, no doubt entirely unintentionally (and as a generally stand-up guy) just illustrates how hard it can be to leave cultural biases at the door. In theory, the rule in the game is "women and men are equal." In practice, it's hard to get around those deeply held biases. It really is. This pours over into everything, flirtatiousness included.
Hmm, I think you are missing the irony in what i'm saying (and using the word sissy was intentional, as I could have used 'pussy' in the same way, a word that's rampantly used IG but is derogatory towards women, just as cunt is). Beefy Dudes trying to be Beefy Dudes and shame women, only to be shamed by a woman, is in essence what I enjoy viewing in a place like the Byn or Zalanthas at large. There is a lot of rampant sexism in ways that are only conceptually understood by a man, because we are not women. It's a subtle discrimination, just as race is IRL. An example would be (which I use IRL as well), that a woman who is a good leader is considered 'bossy', while a good leader that is a man is considered 'a good leader'. I've seen this many times IG.
Safe to say, i'm not the bad guy here. I've had my language nitpicked IRL as well, but i'm pro woman's rights, pro LGBT rights, pro Black Lives Matter, pretty much 'pro anything that is liberal and a basic human right'. I think by being a white male, my language can unintentionally be considered charged in the eye of the beholder, or things I say can be contextually blown up and upset someone. It's okay, i'm used to it.
Obviously this is a charged issue, but I think the less we jump to conclusions about each other, the more productive a conversation can be.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 01:08:47 PM
I, too, am very upset that batman t-shirts made more money than batwoman t-shirts.
But that has nothing to do with the word 'sissy' used as an ambush on someone on the GDB who was actually making a point that got completely missed by the fixation.
???
Can't tell if just blatant trivialization of a woman's argument or if actual trolling. If actual trolling, well, that is against the rules.
Everyone mind your manners. Armaddict, you seriously know better; I know you got the feels, bro, but get ahold of yourself.
I don't think he was being sarcastic?
I've watched a strong, young buck get knocked the fuck out (not to mention it was a brutal, flawless victory) by a very feminine man in a skirt and heels. I laughed, although I was sad I hadn't had any money to bet on it, could have made some cash. I'd tried to warn the guy, hey, that person over there will probably fuck you up, I'd stop talking shit right now if I were you.
Quote from: Talia on August 05, 2016, 01:18:32 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 01:08:47 PM
I, too, am very upset that batman t-shirts made more money than batwoman t-shirts.
But that has nothing to do with the word 'sissy' used as an ambush on someone on the GDB who was actually making a point that got completely missed by the fixation.
???
Can't tell if just blatant trivialization of a woman's argument or if actual trolling. If actual trolling, well, that is against the rules.
Everyone mind your manners. Armaddict, you seriously know better; I know you got the feels, bro, but get ahold of yourself.
I think you're being a little oversensitive. If you disagree with the idea that the entire point of an argument was missed because we wanted to discuss the use of the word 'sissy' when it was used in a contextually accurate setting, then that's well and good. But the point is a valid one to make.
It's not trivialization. It's pointing out that it was, indeed, a moot point.
I would like to see a tribe where it is a total matriarchy. Women run the camp, make the decisions, fight the battles, and, ahem, swing the dick. Men are there as arm candy and servitude, sexual and otherwise. Dwarf tribe, maybe.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 01:26:43 PM
I think you're being a little oversensitive. If you disagree with the idea that the entire point of an argument was missed because we wanted to discuss the use of the word 'sissy' when it was used in a contextually accurate setting, then that's well and good. But the point is a valid one to make.
It's not trivialization. It's pointing out that it was, indeed, a moot point.
No. It was definitely trivialization of a type that is guaranteed to make people angry. I'm not being oversensitive, I am here doing my job. Please don't do things on purpose that will make people mad. Because that is what trolling is. Trolling is against the rules, etc.
Talking about
language in a thread that is about
language and behavior in a text game is not a moot point. I get that it doesn't seem meaningful
to you, but that is not the same thing. Jumping to sarcastic trivialization doesn't help your argument and is pretty much going to make things blow up. So don't.
Quote from: WarriorPoet on August 05, 2016, 01:40:35 PM
I would like to see a tribe where it is a total matriarchy. Women run the camp, make the decisions, fight the battles, and, ahem, swing the dick. Men are there as arm candy and servitude, sexual and otherwise. Dwarf tribe, maybe.
This would, actually, be a good thing. They've existed historically. I'd have expected Arm to come up with this.
I know that there have been small family units that worked like this, though ironically, people treated it as if it was strange.
Quote from: Talia on August 05, 2016, 01:42:40 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 01:26:43 PM
I think you're being a little oversensitive. If you disagree with the idea that the entire point of an argument was missed because we wanted to discuss the use of the word 'sissy' when it was used in a contextually accurate setting, then that's well and good. But the point is a valid one to make.
It's not trivialization. It's pointing out that it was, indeed, a moot point.
No. It was definitely trivialization of a type that is guaranteed to make people angry. I'm not being oversensitive, I am here doing my job. Please don't do things on purpose that will make people mad. Because that is what trolling is. Trolling is against the rules, etc.
Talking about language in a thread that is about language and behavior in a text game is not a moot point. I get that it doesn't seem meaningful to you, but that is not the same thing. Jumping to sarcastic trivialization doesn't help your argument and is pretty much going to make things blow up. So don't.
You can insist on such, but that is indeed oversimplifying. It was a moot point to ignore the message of a post and fixate on a word within it as if the use of the word was an injustice. It is not trolling. It was a comparison. If you honestly want to fixate on that use of sarcasm as trolling, please go back and reread the thread to various posts by Jingo and Yam that were directed towards myself and D-man and give the same treatment.
This thread is quickly becoming hostile.
Yet another gender-based thread that started out with good intentions, brought low by the conjoined fires of passion and insufficient vocabulary.
the tragedy of the commons or something
alas for the perfidy of thought and language
I wouldn't be sad about using this at all. Should I?
(http://www.loctiteproducts.com/img/products/big/t_lkr_blue.png)
At least it's not the infamous Christmas day rape thread. *shudders*
Quote from: WarriorPoet on August 05, 2016, 01:40:35 PM
I would like to see a tribe where it is a total matriarchy. Women run the camp, make the decisions, fight the battles, and, ahem, swing the dick. Men are there as arm candy and servitude, sexual and otherwise. Dwarf tribe, maybe.
Why? Equality of sex goes both ways.
Imagine the thread if you proposed a patriarchal tribe.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 01:46:50 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on August 05, 2016, 01:40:35 PM
I would like to see a tribe where it is a total matriarchy. Women run the camp, make the decisions, fight the battles, and, ahem, swing the dick. Men are there as arm candy and servitude, sexual and otherwise. Dwarf tribe, maybe.
This would, actually, be a good thing. They've existed historically. I'd have expected Arm to come up with this.
I know that there have been small family units that worked like this, though ironically, people treated it as if it was strange.
Someone should write it up as a family. I would apply.
Damn the bickering.
I thought the benjari were matriarchal.
Quote from: Chettaman on August 05, 2016, 02:03:11 PM
I thought the benjari were matriarchal.
I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: Chettaman on August 05, 2016, 02:03:11 PM
I thought the benjari were matriarchal.
I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.
Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?
If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed. If it's the second, you're wrong. If it's the third, haha! (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).
If the reason for Zalanthan equality-of-sexes is to support an equal-opportunity OOC environment and not a genetic thing -- which, this being fantasy, who knows: maybe Jihae makes every sentient creature on Zalanthas view the sexes as equal(?) -- then it'd make sense that playable tribes would also be equal, even though there might be virtual tribes out there that -are- matriarchal, patriarchal, etc.
I know I was encouraged to make my documents for a (playable) tribe reflect the equality-of-sexes thesis once, and I've had virtual tribes (in the BIO) that were matriarchal.
So, to get back to OP:
Is gender neutrality (or the equality-of-the-sexes) a universal genetic/magickal thing for all sentient creatures, or not?
(Even if it is, you'd still have differences between the sexes in terms of sexuality -- the inborn gene would just make every sentient creature view sexism as unthinkable.)
(The more I write, the more I really want to write up a sci-fi story about the anti-sexism gene.)
What if the problem is that female PCs should sexually harass male PCs more often?
I don't actually mind sexism in game. Just as much as I don't mind racism in game. Just as much as I don't mind their being a sort of caste system in which two cities of people are governed. As often as I was confused by the benjari and their sexist ways. ... I was /really/ sad to see them go.
I was saying earlier that we ARE all equal in game. (and out of game) - just however a society or a person chooses to see something is their choice.
-- unless I'm wrong and people in zalanthas don't ever think that. Or we shouldn't on an OOC level.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 02:08:24 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: Chettaman on August 05, 2016, 02:03:11 PM
I thought the benjari were matriarchal.
I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.
Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?
If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed. If it's the second, you're wrong. If it's the third, haha! (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).
I meant that a tribe where biological sex determines leadership roles go against the spirit of the game and should either be removed from game or have its docs changed.
There's something awfully feminist about the Arabeti but I can't remember what it is. I must find out the source of my triggerism (is that a word?)
Oh. Huh.
Well I guess...I can see that.
I suppose my perception is that there are some things that look patriarchal to me, and so I was saying a matriarchal one would balance it out, but I...see what you mean. If that is true.
lol. Their documents were changed alright... xD
Changed to death!
The Arabeti are matrilineal and matrilocal-ish (since they are all one tribe and live together you can't totally say they are matrilocal, since that is not really how matrilocality works). Not the same as matriarchial.
There are not any tribe or clans in game now which are matriarchal or patriarchal or in which membership or leadership is determined by gender.
The reasons for our "no sexism" policy have been stated frequently. It's an OOC decision meant to make the game a place where women and other people who might be affected by sexism (and related -isms) simply don't have to deal with RL bullshit. The GDB is also a place that is intended to be free of sexism/other RL -isms (e.g. heterosexism/homophobia).
IIRC, aspects of the society are passed through the mother of the tribe/tents in the Arabet. Things like stories, storytelling, etc. It isn't a matriarchal society per se, it just has aspects/rituals that are woman-centric. It isn't far fetched or nonsensical to have 'birth/fertility rituals' carried out by women of the tribe. And IIRC, it isn't exclusive to women either (So a man in the same role would perform the same function).
I don't think it's bad to have a matriarchal society. Tribes have funny ideas/rituals about how the world works, most of which are not based in reality, but based on cultural reality/cultural magic. However -- Creating a society/system within a city (Lirathans come to mind obviously) where your gender plays a significant role on who you are or if you can be a leader or what kind of leader, shouldn't be in Zalanthas. I think we all know and agree with this.
I think there's a subtle difference. I can't think of any tribes where 'if you are a born a woman, you do this'. I think there's just various emphasis if you are a man or a woman, which is natural -- Men and women are different. But one is not better than the other. I think that's the distinction.
Quote from: Talia on August 05, 2016, 02:27:31 PM
The Arabeti are matrilineal and matrilocal-ish (since they are all one tribe and live together you can't totally say they are matrilocal, since that is not really how matrilocality works). Not the same as matriarchial.
There are not any tribe or clans in game now which are matriarchal or patriarchal or in which membership or leadership is determined by gender.
The reasons for our "no sexism" policy have been stated frequently. It's an OOC decision meant to make the game a place where women and other people who might be affected by sexism (and related -isms) simply don't have to deal with RL bullshit. The GDB is also a place that is intended to be free of sexism/other RL -isms (e.g. heterosexism/homophobia).
.. and why all of the prejudice in game is based off of fantasy tropes instead of being based in reality (being a mage, being an elf, etc).
Zalanthas is harsh, but it is fantasy harsh. There is a big difference between "passing real-life attitudes off as roleplay" and "getting fully immersed into your role and presenting that in a way which makes sense contextually in the gameworld" - and it is usually easy to tell the difference. When it isn't easy, it's best to assume benefit of the doubt, but it's something we can all keep in mind as we strive to be both better roleplayers and OOCly welcoming to players of all backgrounds.
There is a disappointing lack of Sorcerer Queens in this setting.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 05, 2016, 02:33:59 PM
There is a suspicious lack of Sorcerer Queens in this setting.
Definitely. Dark Sun had what, 2 or 3?
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 05, 2016, 02:33:59 PM
There is a disappointing lack of Sorcerer Queens in this setting.
That you know. Muahahaha!
Post Black-Robe plot, all of Allanak's Black Robes are women.
That was not a planned consequence, though I did require for the plot that half of the contenders be female and half be male. Thus there was a chance that the winners would both be women, and that is what came to pass.
Quote from: Delirium on August 05, 2016, 02:31:54 PM
.. and why all of the prejudice in game is based off of fantasy tropes instead of being based in reality (being a mage, being an elf, etc).
Zalanthas is harsh, but it is fantasy harsh. There is a big difference between "passing real-life attitudes off as roleplay" and "getting fully immersed into your role and presenting that in a way which makes sense contextually in the gameworld" - and it is usually easy to tell the difference. When it isn't easy, it's best to assume benefit of the doubt, but it's something we can all keep in mind as we strive to be both better roleplayers and OOCly welcoming to players of all backgrounds.
Well-said!
I never did understand why Tuluk divided their Templarate into vaginas and penises.
Quote from: Talia on August 05, 2016, 03:23:06 PM
Post Black-Robe plot, all of Allanak's Black Robes are women.
(http://12840-presscdn-0-47.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/cersi-650x406.png)
Quote from: Jihelu on August 05, 2016, 04:02:04 PM
I never did understand why Tuluk divided their Templarate into vaginas and penises.
I always thought it was a throwback to Dune and to some extent the movie Equilibrium.
The white-robed psionic cult in Dune was made up entirely of females.
In Equilibrium, there was a full cult of male hand-to-hand martial artists known as clerics (templars) who were basically thought police in a very Tuluki society.
Which cult? The Bene Gesserit wore black. Between their manipulative and physical abilities they were probably closer to the Unified Templarate than anything.... /digression
Quote from: Desertman on August 05, 2016, 04:03:41 PM
Quote from: Talia on August 05, 2016, 03:23:06 PM
Post Black-Robe plot, all of Allanak's Black Robes are women.
(http://12840-presscdn-0-47.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/cersi-650x406.png)
Well said
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 02:16:38 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 02:08:24 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: Chettaman on August 05, 2016, 02:03:11 PM
I thought the benjari were matriarchal.
I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.
Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?
If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed. If it's the second, you're wrong. If it's the third, haha! (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).
I meant that a tribe where biological sex determines leadership roles go against the spirit of the game and should either be removed from game or have its docs changed.
There's something awfully feminist about the Arabeti but I can't remember what it is. I must find out the source of my triggerism (is that a word?)
The Arabeti are SORT OF matriarchal. I remember seeing in the docs that it is stated to be equal. With each sex given equal duties and tasks. However, bloodlines are important to the Arabeti. So, only people born to an Arabeti mother are accepted into the tribe. The father's lineage does not matter. Arabeti children with fathers out of the tribe are just as accepted as those who are pure-blooded Arabeti. I don't think non-Arabeti fathers are accepted into the tribe just because he has an Arabeti kid. If you only have an Arabeti father, then they are not really accepted into the tribe. Although, I suppose exceptions have been made before for all I know.
This thread has taken us on an adventure, the likes of which challenges even a Team Tuluk dungeon crawl. Surriously.
Quote from: Majikal on August 05, 2016, 05:59:56 PM
This thread has taken us on an adventure, the likes of which challenges even a Team Tuluk dungeon crawl. Surriously.
Blew up to massive proportions. This thread is 8 pages long and wasn't even made two days ago. Amazing. Clearly, people feel very strongly about their MUDsex.
Honestly, this thread shouldn't exist. Women should not be objectified so much more than men that it is a noticeable issue. The solution is obvious: ladies, get out there and objectify some men, today.
"Nice buns, hon!"
"Is that a club in your pants or are you happy to see me?"
"Hey, would you like to see my vagina? It's a strong vagina, I promise."
"Hey, I'll fuck you for a drink. How's that sound?"
"I've got twenty minutes and a hole to fill. You up to it, wussy?"
You know what to do, gals (and guys playing gals).
Quote from: Gilgamesh on August 05, 2016, 05:46:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 02:16:38 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 02:08:24 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: Chettaman on August 05, 2016, 02:03:11 PM
I thought the benjari were matriarchal.
I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.
Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?
If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed. If it's the second, you're wrong. If it's the third, haha! (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).
I meant that a tribe where biological sex determines leadership roles go against the spirit of the game and should either be removed from game or have its docs changed.
There's something awfully feminist about the Arabeti but I can't remember what it is. I must find out the source of my triggerism (is that a word?)
The Arabeti are SORT OF matriarchal. I remember seeing in the docs that it is stated to be equal. With each sex given equal duties and tasks. However, bloodlines are important to the Arabeti. So, only people born to an Arabeti mother are accepted into the tribe. The father's lineage does not matter. Arabeti children with fathers out of the tribe are just as accepted as those who are pure-blooded Arabeti. I don't think non-Arabeti fathers are accepted into the tribe just because he has an Arabeti kid. If you only have an Arabeti father, then they are not really accepted into the tribe. Although, I suppose exceptions have been made before for all I know.
This is called a matri-lineal society. This is not a matriarchy. In the real world we have examples of matrilineal peoples that are in fact patriarchal.
Quote from: Jingo on August 05, 2016, 06:24:23 PM
Quote from: Gilgamesh on August 05, 2016, 05:46:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 02:16:38 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2016, 02:08:24 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2016, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: Chettaman on August 05, 2016, 02:03:11 PM
I thought the benjari were matriarchal.
I think it's the Arabeti but now that you mention it such tribes have no place in game.
Do you mean they aren't in the game currently, that they shouldn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist /sarcasm?
If it's the foremost, maybe that could be changed. If it's the second, you're wrong. If it's the third, haha! (I really do have no idea which of the three it is).
I meant that a tribe where biological sex determines leadership roles go against the spirit of the game and should either be removed from game or have its docs changed.
There's something awfully feminist about the Arabeti but I can't remember what it is. I must find out the source of my triggerism (is that a word?)
The Arabeti are SORT OF matriarchal. I remember seeing in the docs that it is stated to be equal. With each sex given equal duties and tasks. However, bloodlines are important to the Arabeti. So, only people born to an Arabeti mother are accepted into the tribe. The father's lineage does not matter. Arabeti children with fathers out of the tribe are just as accepted as those who are pure-blooded Arabeti. I don't think non-Arabeti fathers are accepted into the tribe just because he has an Arabeti kid. If you only have an Arabeti father, then they are not really accepted into the tribe. Although, I suppose exceptions have been made before for all I know.
This is called a matri-lineal society. This is not a matriarchy. In the real world we have examples of matrilineal peoples that are in fact patriarchal.
Yeah, it's not matriarchal. It's equal. Judaism follows a matri-lineal bloodline (if you are born to a Jewish woman then you are considered part of the tribe), but I'd say it's definitely a patriarchal culture.
I don't think having a tribal structure that recognises biological sex is the same as the game's lack of sexism either. We discriminate on people able to adopt many roles on Arm - magick, lack of it, heritage, bloodline, race - that a belief structure may want to reflect its beliefs embodied by an avatar of either sex is not diminishing either sex or reducing their stature.
Edit for double negatives what up
Quote from: Case on August 05, 2016, 07:01:41 PM
I don't think having a tribal structure that recognises biological sex is not the same as the game's lack of sexism either. We discriminate on people able to adopt many roles on Arm - magick, lack of it, heritage, bloodline, race - that a belief structure may want to reflect its beliefs embodied by an avatar of either sex is not diminishing either sex or reducing their stature.
+1
I'm still a mite peeved that people laughed at my male combat person for wearing a dress simply because he was a man. Gender equality people.
If I wore a skirt ic people would shit on me but if I asked a helper in chat they would say its perfectly fine and canon to do so.
Make up your mind game.
MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
Well I mean. Yeah. I played a character that had long fingernails and wore khol with some feminine clothing. And everyone assumed I was playing a male whore?
Quote from: bcw81 on August 05, 2016, 10:21:04 PM
I'm still a mite peeved that people laughed at my male combat person for wearing a dress simply because he was a man. Gender equality people.
Gender equality and sexual dimorphism are not mutually exclusive, and I'm not sure why you get peeved about it.
ETA: I can't recall seeing it anywhere, but I presume cross-dressing isn't taboo in Arm culture. Like, when you're intentionally trying to appear as the opposite sex, not wearing women's clothing to be edgy. Anybody know?
Does anyone know any kind of historical reasoning why men gravitated towards using pants and women skirts? Aside the whole scottish stuff. Seemed like that fashion was pretty pervasive across many cultures and continents.
I feel like it had something to do with riding horses.
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on August 05, 2016, 10:53:24 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on August 05, 2016, 10:21:04 PM
I'm still a mite peeved that people laughed at my male combat person for wearing a dress simply because he was a man. Gender equality people.
Gender equality and sexual dimorphism are not mutually exclusive, and I'm not sure why you get peeved about it.
ETA: I can't recall seeing it anywhere, but I presume cross-dressing isn't taboo in Arm culture. Like, when you're intentionally trying to appear as the opposite sex, not wearing women's clothing to be edgy. Anybody know?
This has been brought up, before..as has much topics, really.
I think the arguments eventually come out saying that a male wearing a dress would not be ridiculed for being a male wearing a dress because a dress is feminine and grrly, they would be ridiculed for wearing something that is not cut for their body. Same with a female wearing a codpiece designed for a male body form. Sure, the dress/codpiece might have some practicality (it covers/protects the body) but it would not be unimaginable that they would be on the receiving end of some "fun-making" because of it. It is more about the "hilarity" of seeing someone wearing something "funny."
It has to do with Judeo-Christian dogma:
Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
Quote from: boog on August 05, 2016, 11:23:40 PM
I feel like it had something to do with riding horses.
From what I remember in the (loooong ago) history courses I took, the rise of trousers sprung up among many different cultures that made use of the horse as a mount. It was practicality and I had a professor that speculated that the same practicality carried it over to everyday use for either gender.
As for in-game donning of dresses, I think it depends on the dress. If the dress is described such that it's clear that it was made to hug curves, tapering in at the waist and flaring out at the hips, with bust darts - then it was clearly made for a female body.
Just like pants - if they have a front flap, it's probably designed for a man, so that he can whip it out to pee without having to drop his drawers.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2016, 11:30:07 PM
It has to do with Judeo-Christian dogma:
Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
That really doesnt explain why Native American people, people of Asia, Slav, and Scandinavia all had similar differences.
This is what I'm kind of wary of. Here we have a fact of historical life. It has "nothing" to do with gender inequality. But because someone, somewhere, somehow made it into gender inequality 'as well', then if a person is really looking for ways to get offended, they're gonna get offended.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2016, 11:34:24 PM
As for in-game donning of dresses, I think it depends on the dress. If the dress is described such that it's clear that it was made to hug curves, tapering in at the waist and flaring out at the hips, with bust darts - then it was clearly made for a female body.
Just like pants - if they have a front flap, it's probably designed for a man, so that he can whip it out to pee without having to drop his drawers.
Agreed.
Didn't experience this a couple years ago. Wore dresses, no one batted an eye, got several compliments. Kohl and earrings too, and on both earrings! GASP. Nothing. Feel like the long fingernails were part of the problem, maybe, not sure, not enough info. Never enough info. *weeps*
How come I never get that kind of treatment as much as others do?? I'm good at shutting that shit down.
Girl: Why are you wearing a dress?
Me: Why are you wearing pants?
Man: Why are you wearing a dress?
Me: Why aren't you?
I've had male hookers too, but no one ever seemed to be nearly as interested in the pretty, twenty-year old, buff male hooker as they were the forty-year old, greying, female hooker. Then again, if that's all I played, one, then the other, back and forth, my stats would change.
Side note, you people got deep. I say you guys all of the time, and I love analyzing my language and making it more accurate, with all of the help I can get from folks like Lauramars. How did I miss 'you guys' remaining in my everyday language?
Quote from: Pale Horse on August 05, 2016, 11:29:19 PM
I think the arguments eventually come out saying that a male wearing a dress would not be ridiculed for being a male wearing a dress because a dress is feminine and grrly, they would be ridiculed for wearing something that is not cut for their body. Same with a female wearing a codpiece designed for a male body form. Sure, the dress/codpiece might have some practicality (it covers/protects the body) but it would not be unimaginable that they would be on the receiving end of some "fun-making" because of it. It is more about the "hilarity" of seeing someone wearing something "funny."
That is the gist of my comment about dimorphism. Men and women are two different genders, and their equality in Armageddon and their physiological differences are not part of the same argument. Clothing made for the female figure probably does not fit the male figure correctly, unless the description of the item gives that impression, or your main description describes your awesome manboobs. Getting peeved because people laughed that you apparently can't dress yourself is an odd sentiment to me.
Men and women are different sexes. "Genders" are a socially-constructed set of rules and characteristics that may or may not be keyed to a particular sex.
In Zalanthas, I would only question a man wearing a dress if he was fighting in it, just as I would someone who only fights in plain clothing.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 06, 2016, 01:50:06 AM
Men and women are different sexes. "Genders" are a socially-constructed set of rules and characteristics that may or may not be keyed to a particular sex.
Fair point about the definition of gender, but a man wearing ill fitting clothing still has nothing to do with gender equality.
To say a piece of clothing is cut wrong for a man (without said piece of clothing specifically describing boob-holsters) is about as silly as saying any piece of armor an elf can wear is cut wrong since it was intended for a human.
Quote from: bcw81 on August 06, 2016, 07:12:32 AM
To say a piece of clothing is cut wrong for a man (without said piece of clothing specifically describing boob-holsters) is about as silly as saying any piece of armor an elf can wear is cut wrong since it was intended for a human.
Yo, but it is. That's why we have tailors.
(http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/-ChLzm.gif)
Yes. That's exactly the point. A tailor can fit a garment to your body shape in the same way they can resize that piece of armor Dead Amos the Human was wearing for Giant McGiantston.
I think it's fine to say that the trend in Zalanthas seems to be that women typically wear skirts or dresses rather than men. Even the docs hint that some clothing items are more commonly worn by one gender than the other.
That may differ from culture to culture. There may be some tribes or whatever where men wear skirts just as often as women, etc.
I don't think it makes sense to ridicule a man IG for wearing a skirt, however, because there is nothing ridiculous or weak about being feminine or female. It may not be the usual clothing trend, but it's nothing to particularly mock.
That's the way I prefer to see it.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 06, 2016, 08:52:39 AM
I don't think it makes sense to ridicule a man IG for wearing a skirt, however, because there is nothing ridiculous or weak about being feminine or female. It may not be the usual clothing trend, but it's nothing to particularly mock.
Yeah, I don't think I would, since nothing in the fashion docs mentions it. I'm more likely to give you Hell if you're not following those docs, really. If you're rocking a short dress with your hairy legs and buttcheeks all hanging out, and your manboobs crammed into cleavage, and we're in Allanak, that's where it becomes a thing for me. :D
I remember a couple of great male characters who wore dresses.
I can honestly say I never laughed at them IC for it. I laughed behind the keyboard a lot though. It's pretty damn funny almost every time.
Most of the time the character wearing the dress ALSO goes out of their way to point out they are wearing a dress, because they are doing it for attention, and want people to notice "I"m a man wearing a dress, give me attention and give me a reaction.".
There is an Kuraci jacket that specifically mentions "feminine" in it's sdesc, on account of a custom design to fit the female anatomy. I've once wore it as this rinthi grebber and had a lot of funny conversations about using the cavities for breasts as a way to smuggle spice.
PS: The idea got shot down, because everybody knows those cavities are the first things the soldiers grope during those gate searches.
I'm with the group that sees the dresses/skirts thing as a nonthing. FFS a kilt is a skirt of a certain cut, and no one ever says anything about those. I think it's fair to say that like everyone else who's forced to use a tailor when something doesn't fit properly in order to wear it, dress guy likely did too, so those darts are hugging pecs.
When IC becomes OOC I would agree with you, but most of the time it doesn't. Then again last time I had a PC in the Byn about twenty dude PCs threatened to kill me the instant I called a female PC a name for IC reasons. The amount of white knighting was off the hook.
Quote from: Inks on August 07, 2016, 10:57:45 PM
When IC becomes OOC I would agree with you, but most of the time it doesn't. Then again last time I had a PC in the Byn about twenty dude PCs threatened to kill me the instant I called a female PC a name for IC reasons. The amount of white knighting was off the hook.
I've also seen this phenomenon. It's so obvious that both my wife and I joke about how blatant it is. She plays females, I play males.
If I want to get a pack of men at my back to defend me and support me in situations where I might need them to lift a blade in my defense/favor I have to go to war with them and prove myself to them on the battlefield/when it matters.
That.....or enter the game with a vagina.
I don't mind it. I'm probably even prone to doing it myself. If there is a dirty male adolescent grebber in the street getting kicked around I will be the first to admit I probably won't help him....but if I see someone kicking around "the cute little dirty waif girl".....I'm going to rush to her aide almost every time because I'm a sucker for that, and I feel bad IRL about it.
It's just one of those things and I've seen it enough to know it's not the exception...it's actually the norm.
I'd rather we try to push back against that "phenomenon" rather than shrug and accept it as "the norm"
What are some proposed solutions?
I would say that this isn't a male attracted to female problem more than it is a, people don't know how to joke in game or... out of game. Or maybe people are unused to how to deal with confrontations as such in game. ... and/or out of game. While out of game, the person may say nothing and do nothing but think, "What a douchebag." and hopes some conclusion happens soon.
I'll give you a real life example. I was in class one night and there was this really drunk student there that night. There was also a very outspoken girl who seemed fairly knowledge about what we were talking about. Well throughout the night she like one-ups this guy and jokes on him too, but in a friendly manner. ... this guy wasn't havin' it, though. He was muttering loudly about how he would shut her up and what he'd do after class - and it was something else, man. And... no one said shit. No one in the room. Not the teacher. Not a student. No one. So... once I had heard enough I stood up - and coincidentally some other guy stood up and was like, "hey man. You can either leave or sit there and be quiet or I'll shut you up." and he muttered much much quieter after that and the rest of the class period was pretty tense until he decided to leave. -- seriously, man? No one but me and the other guy? No one said anything and even avoided eye contact.
What I'm saying is. In game. In zalanthas. People who are roleplaying tough guys are gonne roleplay being tough guys, but they don't know how, in comparison to an actual tough guy. xD or maybe they're all roleplaying one character. "the angry mob". lol. Good'ol mob mentality.
... and of course. Affections for the opposite sex also come into play as well as other possible OOC motivations.
also, I mean... people can react thusly to another character being ridiculed. The person being defended against now has to react differently or ''appropriately''.
TBF, tough guys IRL usually aren't actually tough guys.
I tend to accept reality for what it is.
So long as men in general feel the desire to protect females this is going to be something that exists more often than not.
It's a video game based largely around Darksun which in turn was more or less "Dungeons and Dragons in the desert".
MOST of the people who come here to play grew up playing video games/tabletop games/watching movies where the key was to rescue the damsel in distress, give or take, and WE LIKE being heroes.
I've seen some great villains in Armageddon, but for the most part, the people who play the game grew up wanting to be the hero and we still like the idea of being the hero.
I've played a fair number of villains myself, but......I still enjoy being the hero when I can be, because being the hero makes me feel good.
If I'm not playing a villain and I see the opportunity to rescue a woman, I'm more often than not going to rescue her........because I enjoy doing that in video games.
Always have, probably always will.
In my experience MOST DUDES enjoy it as well. (Most females do too actually. Most girls/women I've ever played with REALLY ENJOY coming to the damsel's rescue.)
I've DM'ed a lot of campaigns for a lot of different groups, played in a lot of different themes/settings, and in general....most people like rescuing damsels and being heroes....because we like that about video games.
I'm not sure I want to ask them to stop enjoying it, or not doing it if they do enjoy it. It's a video game. If they enjoy it and the opportunity is there, then they should go ahead and do it.
I'm also not going to thumb my nose at them if they happen to not want to rescue dudes as often as they want to rescue chicks.
Why?
Because people should do what they enjoy so long as it doesn't break the game.
I understand in theory it should be 50/50, but the truth is reality is never "fair" or "equal" and it's human beings playing the game, not robots....so they are going to do human things based on the reality that they are humans and we tend to do what we enjoy.
So long as it's not hurting the game, and I don't believe it is....I'm probably just going to shrug and keep on keeping on.
I guess I'll just pin on this "self rescuing princess" badge and keep on keeping on, then.
Quote from: Delirium on August 08, 2016, 10:00:22 AM
I guess I'll just pin on this "self rescuing princess" badge and keep on keeping on, then.
I like tough female characters. Keep on keepin' on girlfriend.
Quote from: Delirium on August 08, 2016, 10:00:22 AM
I guess I'll just pin on this "self rescuing princess" badge and keep on keeping on, then.
Maybe I play females because I prefer to solo play, i.e. self rescuing. So meta.
Not to derail but you know what I don't think we see enough of?
Independent female rangers.
There is just something awesome about that lone desert woman ranger (not desert elf, too easy to survive, doesn't really count) concept. That lone riding indy human/breed woman who just traverses the wastes like a badass and hunts for a living only to come to town to trade before being off on the wind again.
I've seen a handful over the years, never many....and they are always pretty epic in theory.. I always want to know more about them when I see them.
I just wish they would live longer/be around more often.
(I've seen plenty of Guild Ranger females who are actually aides, or Bynners, or crafters with an apartment, or whatever....but aren't actually RANGERS who make a living RANGERING.....I want to see more of them.)
I see them all the time. Usually they pick tribal accent and get fawned over. Or they're a manhater like Delirium and they aren't even impressed by all my sweet gear.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 08, 2016, 09:47:59 AM
TBF, tough guys IRL usually aren't actually tough guys.
True enough. I get your point.
But I'm not talking about wannabes or people who get mocked with the title ''tough guy''. I'm talking about people who are actually tough.
Don't compare them or discriminate against a person for "being a tough guy".
Judge them by their actions.
I'm a tough guy. And I cry when I see bambi's mother dead. I don't cry when I get injured. And if I do, it was because I was thinking about bambi's mother dead.
xD I feel like I see plenty of the female rangers. They last as long as the male rangers.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 08, 2016, 10:25:19 AM
I see them all the time. Usually they pick tribal accent and get fawned over.
Generally these don't fit the criteria I'm looking for. The one's I see like this are almost always more than happy to get fawned over and write their PC with exactly getting fawned over in mind and then play it up every chance they get. Nothing wrong with that, I'm just not horribly impressed by seeing it for the 4,000th time.
The thing with that sort of female lone-ranger concept is it would be made up of a ton of solo RP, so that's probably why there's so few of them.
I'd share a circumstance wherein one of my female characters was beat up by some guys, once, but... not enough time has passed for it to be safe to talk about. It does happen, though! Albeit rarely.
Somehow I get nitpicked over the use of the word 'sissy', and then Desertman posts.
Quote from: Reiloth on August 08, 2016, 01:17:58 PM
Somehow I get nitpicked over the use of the word 'sissy', and then Desertman posts.
You haven't made it until you get moderated for tongue-in-cheek posts.
Quote from: Desertman on August 08, 2016, 10:13:07 AM
Not to derail but you know what I don't think we see enough of?
Independent female rangers.
There is just something awesome about that lone desert woman ranger (not desert elf, too easy to survive, doesn't really count) concept. That lone riding indy human/breed woman who just traverses the wastes like a badass and hunts for a living only to come to town to trade before being off on the wind again.
I've seen a handful over the years, never many....and they are always pretty epic in theory.. I always want to know more about them when I see them.
I just wish they would live longer/be around more often.
(I've seen plenty of Guild Ranger females who are actually aides, or Bynners, or crafters with an apartment, or whatever....but aren't actually RANGERS who make a living RANGERING.....I want to see more of them.)
Sounds to me like maybe you should stop playing in Allanak only. Because I've seen loads of solo female hunters that aren't interested in what the following posts claim they are in Luir's and stuff.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on August 08, 2016, 03:48:59 PM
Sounds to me like maybe you should stop playing in Allanak only. Because I've seen loads of solo female hunters that aren't interested in what the following posts claim they are in Luir's and stuff.
Ok.
Hey BrokenRomance, I love you for starting this thread. I love the way you just spoke out about it in that moment in game. Sending in to staff is good too, but overall, this is just good and worthy of discussion. It's just so awkward to talk about sometimes! Every time I've tried to have a conversation anywhere close to this it always becomes a total mess and I end up feeling attacked, maybe because I start out so vulnerable to begin with. It's really hard to break the silence.
So. I love you. Thank you. Good being and good broadcasting.
Some of you posting on here complaining about others being pushy about sex or sexual situations have been exactly that to my PCs, trying to get them to do sexual things they don't want to do. Don't worry, I'm fine with it, I just wanted to remind you...also it's funny.
Doesn't happen to just female PCs, and it's not just male PCs or male players doing it. But I would agree it's mostly males.
I don't play female PCs. I did, just once, play a female PC on an RPI (not this one). I didn't like the way she was treated. I didn't like guys who wouldn't take no for an answer. She was a roughneck ranger girl, with a mate, but they still wouldn't leave her alone. I also didn't like the special treatment. I didn't like that people just gave her things, made it easier for her, protected her...chose to guard her when she was more competent than others in the party. It felt like she couldn't earn respect and I didn't like that. I played her for several hundred hours until she died a LD death, and that feeling of being somehow less respected never changed, though she was popular, and rich, and the best in the game at what she did. So I don't play female PCs.
My take on this discussion - If it's IC, keep it IC. Have your PC take care of it, and if he/she can't, make a friend who can or pay someone, or get your boss to step on the troublemaker. And sometimes your PC is going to lose.
It's impossible to believe that adults of both sexes wouldn't be grabbing for any pleasure they could find in this miserable world, and most players here want to represent a realistic, 3D person, I think. A lot of the PCs are assholes. It's just that kind of world. Sexism is terrible, but so is racism and slavery and murder. It's not a world where there's political correctness and safe places where people's feelings don't get hurt, and it shouldn't be.
Don't know if you're referring to me, Refugee, but as I've said before, I'm aware that I've had characters that were definitely that way (pushy or lecherous). But I do hope that I never crossed the line into harassment that made people not want to log in because they felt they were being used.
I like to play a mixed bag of male/female PCs, honestly I actually flip a coin or roll a die on whether I go each gender. It has actually worked out I ended up playing almost a dozen females in a row or something but its whatever. Honestly though I havent even noticed the whole being treated special thing, Sure I have noticed more people want to seek you or for sexy funtimes but a quick no from asshole-female#40036 and they usually go away or they keep trying and always failing, and sometimes thats fun too. On one character awhile back, I had this one guy who was trying for a good IC month to get somewhere and it led nowhere and I think Pof that character knew it wasnt going anywhere oocly but icly the chsracter still wanted a piece of datass. Im fine with most rp but there is a line leading places eventually. Albeit a pretty distant line for me
Everything Refugee said is great, and spot on, Brokenromance. I know for a fact that poor fucker was being harrassed by tribal gicks because he said "no". It added to the story and everyone was terrified, like, NO, they CAN'T have the Sarge, let's go kill 'em! It was irritating that HE got to ride in the argosy on escorts *mumbles something*, but hey, Sarge duties. Anyway, yeah, special treatment does happen when playing a female, and the knife cuts both ways.
Quote from: Case on August 05, 2016, 07:01:41 PM
I don't think having a tribal structure that recognises biological sex is the same as the game's lack of sexism either. We discriminate on people able to adopt many roles on Arm - magick, lack of it, heritage, bloodline, race - that a belief structure may want to reflect its beliefs embodied by an avatar of either sex is not diminishing either sex or reducing their stature.
Edit for double negatives what up
Yeah, this.
Especially when you take into account that the matrilineal society documented in the Arabet's docs (to the best of my recollection, been a bit since I played one) was based on the fact that tracing maternal lineage was the sensible option because Arabet sleep with so many people that oftentimes it's impossible to pinpoint exactly Who's Your Daddy. The Sun Runners have some of this in their docs, too, although taken in another direction.
I don't see it as sexism or diminishing the status of male tribe members to trace lineage by "the lady who gave birth to me" because in a rampantly promiscuous society without paternity tests, it's the only foolproof way to ascertain heritage and trace family lines.
Unless we start introducing Mpreg: Zalanthas Edition or code a 'mon un paternity threl inrof' spell then matrilineal societies aren't unfair or weird.