Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:13:57 PM

Title: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:13:57 PM
Armageddon used to be a game that if you put in the effort, went about it seriously, got people involved and Staff thought it was a cool idea, they'd go along with it and build what you needed and you could leave a permanent mark in the game world.

Now it's all automated and bureaucratic with an endless amount of forms to fill out and rules to follow and checkmarks that turned the mud into the static world that I feel it has turned into.

Maybe I should become an Armageddon lawyer to help people navigate all of this bureaucracy and forms they need to fill out before they can get their 3 buddies tribe into the world  :P

I'm thinking of poor Patuk and the months it took him to get his tribe going (how long did that last anyway? heheh)

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 04:30:29 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:13:57 PM
Armageddon used to be a game that if you put in the effort, went about it seriously, got people involved and Staff thought it was a cool idea, they'd go along with it and build what you needed and you could leave a permanent mark in the game world.

Now it's all automated and bureaucratic with an endless amount of forms to fill out and rules to follow and checkmarks that turned the mud into the static world that I feel it has turned into.

Maybe I should become an Armageddon lawyer to help people navigate all of this bureaucracy and forms they need to fill out before they can get their 3 buddies tribe into the world  :P

I'm thinking of poor Patuk and the months it took him to get his tribe going (how long did that last anyway? heheh)

I think the game still allows for players to do this. I think it may allow for players to do this sort of thing even more NOW than it did in the past.

In the past (many many years ago) a lot of getting things into the game did have to do with which staffers you knew and how well you were liked OOC'ly.

Now there are actual established processes in the game that let players build things in the game world if they put in the time and effort.

Is it perfect? No. But it sure beats the "Buddy System" of old. Things have come a long way. In my opinion it's a lot better than it ever has been previously.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:47:58 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 04:30:29 PM
I think the game still allows for players to do this. I think it may allow for players to do this sort of thing even more NOW than it did in the past.

In the past (many many years ago) a lot of getting things into the game did have to do with which staffers you knew and how well you were liked OOC'ly.

Now there are actual established processes in the game that let players build things in the game world if they put in the time and effort.

Is it perfect? No. But it sure beats the "Buddy System" of old. Things have come a long way. In my opinion it's a lot better than it ever has been previously.

I don't think it does. I think one of Armageddon's greatest illusion (not a magic trick!) and also it's greatest failure in the past few years is in giving you the illusion that it does. I don't buy it anymore. When I play, it's nobodies because I know I just can't keep lying to myself that I can actually get something permanent AND worthwhile.

We probably have a different definition of what is considered worthwhile and also how much time you need to dedicate to the game to get it done (which is cool, I'm not saying that my cool stuff is cooler than yours), but I just don't have the energy or time or whatever to plan stuff in a game for months, if not years RL just to fight to get the bottom of the bucket's scrap worth of my original plan into the game.

While I think that the "Buddy System" was wrong, now the needle flipped to the extreme opposite, where nothing can be done because it puts France's bureaucratic nightmare to shame.

Dude couldn't even go and just add a keyword to a mount without asking his boss and his boss's boss permission first.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 13, 2015, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:13:57 PM
Now it's all automated and bureaucratic with an endless amount of forms to fill out and rules to follow and checkmarks that turned the mud into the static world that I feel it has turned into.

Maybe I should become an Armageddon lawyer to help people navigate all of this bureaucracy and forms they need to fill out before they can get their 3 buddies tribe into the world  :P

Just to clarify through the hyperbole minus the rose-colored-glasses nostalgia about the golden years of yore, it's not that bad.  You put in a request with the info for your tribe.  Follow these guidelines (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49364.0.html), please; it will hasten the process because it will be shorter and easier to read!  After approval, you can post for other players to take up the role with you, and now you have formatted, staff-approved documentation to give to them.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:52:53 PM
Quote from: Nyr on October 13, 2015, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:13:57 PM
Now it's all automated and bureaucratic with an endless amount of forms to fill out and rules to follow and checkmarks that turned the mud into the static world that I feel it has turned into.

Maybe I should become an Armageddon lawyer to help people navigate all of this bureaucracy and forms they need to fill out before they can get their 3 buddies tribe into the world  :P

Just to clarify through the hyperbole minus the rose-colored-glasses nostalgia about the golden years of yore, it's not that bad.  You put in a request with the info for your tribe.  Follow these guidelines (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49364.0.html), please; it will hasten the process because it will be shorter and easier to read!  After approval, you can post for other players to take up the role with you, and now you have formatted, staff-approved documentation to give to them.

I feel like it took poor Patuk almost two months to get his tribe going but I will honestly admit that my numbers could definitely be inflated.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 13, 2015, 04:55:27 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:47:58 PM
While I think that the "Buddy System" was wrong, now the needle flipped to the extreme opposite, where nothing can be done because it puts France's bureaucratic nightmare to shame.

Feel free to provide an example of what could be done before that can't be done now, but you may also want to put it in its own thread.  This is moving beyond what could be set up and into your current rants about the game.  While worthwhile, that shouldn't take away from someone else's thread.  I can separate this out for you if you prefer.

Quote
Dude couldn't even go and just add a keyword to a mount without asking his boss and his boss's boss permission first.

Feel free to provide a reasonable example.  The above is silly, you only have to ask your boss.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 13, 2015, 04:57:28 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:52:53 PM
Quote from: Nyr on October 13, 2015, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:13:57 PM
Now it's all automated and bureaucratic with an endless amount of forms to fill out and rules to follow and checkmarks that turned the mud into the static world that I feel it has turned into.

Maybe I should become an Armageddon lawyer to help people navigate all of this bureaucracy and forms they need to fill out before they can get their 3 buddies tribe into the world  :P

Just to clarify through the hyperbole minus the rose-colored-glasses nostalgia about the golden years of yore, it's not that bad.  You put in a request with the info for your tribe.  Follow these guidelines (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49364.0.html), please; it will hasten the process because it will be shorter and easier to read!  After approval, you can post for other players to take up the role with you, and now you have formatted, staff-approved documentation to give to them.

I feel like it took poor Patuk almost two months to get his tribe going but I will honestly admit that my numbers could definitely be inflated.

It did. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,31255.msg881819.html#msg881819)  That's why we set up guidelines on what/how to submit, because the first submission was massive and unformatted.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 13, 2015, 05:00:57 PM
This is the split-off thread for how things used to be awesome but now they aren't.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 05:01:36 PM
Quote from: Nyr on October 13, 2015, 04:55:27 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:47:58 PM
While I think that the "Buddy System" was wrong, now the needle flipped to the extreme opposite, where nothing can be done because it puts France's bureaucratic nightmare to shame.

Feel free to provide an example of what could be done before that can't be done now, but you may also want to put it in its own thread.  This is moving beyond what could be set up and into your current rants about the game.  While worthwhile, that shouldn't take away from someone else's thread.  I can separate this out for you if you prefer.

Nah, it's fine. It wasn't so much a rant about Armageddon as a series of little deviations that went from "We should be able to pitch perma-tents" - "You can already do that buy renting a warehouse" - "I don't want a warehouse, I want a semi-perma camp" - "You can't have a fortress of doom, sorry!" - "Yeah but Halasturd would have built me one!" "Ask my boss if you want one!"

I'm good for now - Thanks for letting me rant for a while :)

Oooh, me own thread! I think that from now on everything should be posted in caps lock, though, for greater cane-waving effect.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: LauraMars on October 13, 2015, 05:06:18 PM
Sooooooooo I kind of DO miss the Plainsman's way too European castle/keep thing that Tuluk took over. SUE ME. It was fun ok.

(http://www.ascrewsloose.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/rose-colored-glasses.jpg)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 05:07:13 PM
Since it apparently didn't belong in the former thread:


Many many years ago a clan was once created because a player lied to staff about how they were going to die of cancer and wanted to play this limited-time awesome-cool-clan as part of their bucket list.

That clan is still in the game.


Modern Staff: Dedicated volunteers bringing a professional standard of conduct to the management and growth of the game world, or heartless orphan-baby-eaters who are out to get you?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Patuk on October 13, 2015, 05:16:04 PM
The tribe thing didn't work out because I had to spend two months without reliable internet and one of my tribesmates ended up dying before even that because crimcode is an unforgiving mistress.

I'm going to try and stay out of this thread, but I'd appreciate other examples to be used. My tribe didn't work out, but other than its approving taking a little longer than I had anticipated, staff didn't do anything against it at all.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 05:16:25 PM
I liked Tuluk back when the northlands was really just a small outpost in the forest/scrub....

Oh wait, Tuluk is that now.

It's a good time to be northern.  :)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Akariel on October 13, 2015, 05:16:44 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 05:07:13 PM
Since it apparently didn't belong in the former thread:


Many many years ago a clan was once created because a player lied to staff about how they were going to die of cancer and wanted to play this limited-time awesome-cool-clan as part of their bucket list.

That clan is still in the game.


Modern Staff: Dedicated volunteers bringing a professional standard of conduct to the management and growth of the game world, or heartless orphan-baby-eaters who are out to get you?

I've only eaten two babies so far...

Still, if you'd like to send in a request about this matter, perhaps we might find some more information about what you're talking about?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Iiyola on October 13, 2015, 05:16:50 PM
Malken, you're posting bitching so much that it almost looks like you're playing again.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 05:22:20 PM
Quote from: Akariel on October 13, 2015, 05:16:44 PM

I've only eaten two babies so far...

Still, if you'd like to send in a request about this matter, perhaps we might find some more information about what you're talking about?

Eh, if you really want me to, I can. I don't think it's anything more than an amusing anecdote illustrating that things used to be run a lot differently.

In case it wasn't clear, I think things are a lot better than now than they were back in the Plainsmen days, when it comes to Staff professionalism and running a fun game world. Is it more bureaucratic? Sure. Does favoritism and personality still play some role? Of course, we're all human and there's not that many of us in the system. But I'd rather have what we have now than the zany high-magickal "staff think an idea is cool so BAM Giant fortress!" zoo that Armageddon apparently used to be.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Akariel on October 13, 2015, 05:24:46 PM
Sorry if I came off snappy prior, I'm honestly pretty curious what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Quell on October 13, 2015, 05:25:58 PM
Quote from: Akariel on October 13, 2015, 05:16:44 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 05:07:13 PM
Since it apparently didn't belong in the former thread:


Many many years ago a clan was once created because a player lied to staff about how they were going to die of cancer and wanted to play this limited-time awesome-cool-clan as part of their bucket list.

That clan is still in the game.


Modern Staff: Dedicated volunteers bringing a professional standard of conduct to the management and growth of the game world, or heartless orphan-baby-eaters who are out to get you?

I've only eaten two babies so far...

Still, if you'd like to send in a request about this matter, perhaps we might find some more information about what you're talking about?

We can send in staff requests to get babies eaten?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 05:26:11 PM
The only thing better about the past when stacked against what we have now was some of the players we lost.

We lost some really great players over the years mainly due to stupid personal disagreements between players and also between players and staff. Most of it is ridiculously petty stuff that would be squashed if only both sides would agree to say, "You know what, maybe I'm not always right, maybe you aren't always right, but let's agree to give it one more go.". (I think we did do that at one point and unbanned a lot of old accounts? I would like to see that again but with less of a, "Have you learned your lesson son?" and more of a, "We value you as a player and realize we are losing treasures we can't replace. Please come back and we will all try to do better if you also try to do better.".)

Unfortunately Armageddon isn't the sort of game that thrives on "new players". If you look at the new player numbers...we keep an EXTREMELY SMALL percentage of the new players we get to even look at the game.

I believe it is around 1% on average that continue to actually play the game after making an account? (Something very close to that.)

Every player we can get who does stick around for the long-term is a treasure. If we don't keep a long-term player we might as well count that as losing 200 - 250 "new players" a month. (That's about the number of new accounts we get?)

For every long-term player we lose to silly disagreements and personal conflicts  (no matter how well founded we think they are) we might as well just scratch off an entire month of voting because we just made it not matter.

Let's not even get into how long it takes to make a "new player" provide the same quality of play as a veteran player in terms of contributing to the game. Then we start looking at long-term players going away as a loss of not only numbers, but a loss of quality as a whole.

It's a sad situation. I wish we could get some genuine olive-branch politics and a sincere representative to reach out to the "other side" and invite those people back with zero snark and zero scorn.

The only thing I miss about the old days is the people we've lost from the old days. Replacing one of them takes years. If our ratio of "losing long-termers" to "keeping long-termers" fluctuates too much...you end up with extremely low peak-time numbers.

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: Akariel on October 13, 2015, 05:24:46 PM
Sorry if I came off snappy prior, I'm honestly pretty curious what you're talking about.

It sounded more concerned than snappy TBH. My internet's been too patchy these last few weeks for staff to actually "get me" :(

Incidentally, any one who thinks the game is worse now that before needs to go through some of the Starter Shops. So much cool swag.

Quote from: Quell on October 13, 2015, 05:25:58 PM
We can send in staff requests to get babies eaten?

That's technically a PK report, right?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 05:29:08 PM
In my experiences, Armageddon's fun factor can be boiled down to two ingredients...which are extremely intuitive and obvious, but tend to get the least amount of focus:


The more these two elements are engaged, the more Armageddon is fun, regardless of policies, processes, clans that are open or closed, cities that are opened or closed, classes available for play, etc.  These aspects of the game are like switching between D&D 3rd edition to 4th edition.  Sure, the game plays differently, but if you have great players and an awesome DM the game is going to kick ass no matter what player's handbook is sitting in front of you.

If you think the game isn't as fun today as it was in the past, look no further than who you're playing with regularly, and which staff you're interacting with.  

In regards to the current slump we're in, personally, I can feel Talia and Cavaticus' presence missing in the game right now.  Their awesomeness permeated through all sorts of things over the last year, and with RL stealing them away (temporarily) I feel the game suffering.  That's not to say that the other active staff aren't awesome too, but any small team that's down two members is going to suffer, especially if one of those members is a leader.  Hopefully the new/current staff feel empowered to try and fill their shoes.  I could easily be missing some other staff that were behind the scenes kicking ass, but obviously I can't tell who they are as a player unless I'm interacting with them via reports.

There may be some awesome players on break too, but that's hard to keep my finger on the pulse of...GDB activity =/= player activity.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ender on October 13, 2015, 05:40:15 PM
There really does need to be an honest discussion over what keeps players interested in the game and what staff asks of those players.  There absolutely needs to be a give and take between staff where players admit the constraints of the game are necessary to follow regardless of how things have been in the past, and staff need to help communicate in a professional manner what avenues are open to players to achieve their goals.

I really think belittling Malken with the title of this thread would fall into the category of unnecessary antagonism myself.  I agree that Malken's statements are hyperbolic, but hyperbole on the other side only serves to make a further divide.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: ibusoe on October 13, 2015, 05:44:43 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 05:26:11 PM
We lost some really great players over the years mainly due to stupid personal disagreements between players and also between players and staff. Most of it is ridiculously petty stuff that would be squashed if only both sides would agree to say, "You know what, maybe I'm not always right, maybe you aren't always right, but let's agree to give it one more go.". (I think we did do that at one point and unbanned a lot of old accounts? I would like to see that again but with less of a, "Have you learned your lesson son?" and more of a, "We value you as a player and realize we are losing treasures we can't replace. Please come back and we will all try to do better if you also try to do better.".)

Yeah, I think the staff should create an outreach program to people who feel burned.  I also think that people should get like an annual get-out-of-jail-free card, in case they have a bad day and shoot their mouths off.  

Also, I think the staff should be a bit quicker to admit when they're wrong.  

I honestly think things are much better than they were in the past, but I think the game could be improved considerably if we were nicer to people.  Earlier staff may have had something of a justification to be kind of mean, given that it's really hard to launch a game.  But this game is almost twenty years old.

This isn't an anti-staff post, it's a pro-staff post.  But sometimes players get the short end of the stick.  

I can remember a couple of times where staffers have been mad at me, and sure, I had pretty solidly fucked up, but it was very difficult to effectively backpedal off of my mistake given the amount of vitriol that was directed at me.  Thankfully those days are largely in the past, but I think it's still too easy to get labeled as a problem child.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 05:46:14 PM
Quote from: Ender on October 13, 2015, 05:40:15 PM
I really think belittling Malken with the title of this thread would fall into the category of unnecessary antagonism myself.  

In a perfect world we would never see any snark out of the powers on high. But, let's be honest since we are all being honest...we have all seen more than a little bit of snark over the years.

Are people just people and eventually everyone has a snapping point where they say, "Look you little shit. I'm in charge so it's my way.". Yes. That happens between people.

It's never a good thing though. Even if it isn't said, it has been implied many many times over the years by people here.

It has to be hard to deal with our playerbase. I will be the first to admit we can be some serious pains in the ass. The again, when you volunteer for staff you know what sort of players you are going to be staffing over. One can only assume you were one for many years yourself.

I think when you take on a staff-name you should really be ready to say, "I know I'm held to a higher standard now. No matter what, I will always keep it professional. No matter how bad it gets...I will be professional. If I get to a point I can't be and I want to throw out a little snark, then I need to step back and let another staffer not personally invested take over.".

But, then again, this is an online game community and my ideas about what's professional might not hold any sway at all in this environment.

I just know how I would like it to be.

When you can be nice. Be nice. When you can't be nice, be professional. Never be snarky. It doesn't breed disappointment, it breeds personal resentment. When you start breeding personal resentment, you go from making someone upset about a situation to making someone upset about the entire game as a situation...then they don't walk away from a particular situation, they walk away from the game as a whole.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 05:47:02 PM
Quote from: Ender on October 13, 2015, 05:40:15 PM
There really does need to be an honest discussion over what keeps players interested in the game and what staff asks of those players.  

We talk about that all the time, but honestly, keeping staff interested and engaged is probably even more critical.  

Few reasons I say this:

1)  They're doing a bunch of work, for free, and often get criticized by the people they work for.... any situation like that has to make keeping them engaged difficult.  I know if I spent 40 hours of my free time building something for a game, and the players criticized it more than they praised it, I'd get burned out really quick.  When I build stuff for my tabletop D&D campaign, I get to see the players have a good time, and they're my friends so they're not going to shit on my work even if there are parts that aren't perfect...  The Armageddon player base isn't nearly so forgiving.  Also, building stuff for my D&D campaign takes way less time than building in Armageddon.

2)  Simple numbers game, if you have 100 active players and 8 active staff, lose 1 staff and you're down 13% of your staff presence.  Multiple clan's lose their staffer, or an entire timezone loses all/most of it's staff animations.  

3)  I strongly believe that one of the things that keeps players interested in the game is having staff attention to whatever it is they're doing.  Lose staff, and you lose players...whereas losing players may have less of an impact on staff morale...if only because at least less players means less work for them?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Renenutet on October 13, 2015, 05:50:00 PM
Quote from: Quell on October 13, 2015, 05:25:58 PM
Quote from: Akariel on October 13, 2015, 05:16:44 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 05:07:13 PM
Since it apparently didn't belong in the former thread:


Many many years ago a clan was once created because a player lied to staff about how they were going to die of cancer and wanted to play this limited-time awesome-cool-clan as part of their bucket list.

That clan is still in the game.


Modern Staff: Dedicated volunteers bringing a professional standard of conduct to the management and growth of the game world, or heartless orphan-baby-eaters who are out to get you?

I've only eaten two babies so far...

Still, if you'd like to send in a request about this matter, perhaps we might find some more information about what you're talking about?

We can send in staff requests to get babies eaten?

Yours or someone else's?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 06:00:08 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 13, 2015, 05:16:50 PM
Malken, you're posting bitching so much that it almost looks like you're playing again.

I'm trying to cram 352 pages of Japanese history for my midterm Wednesday. Any excuses not to study is a great excuse!

Also,

(http://s30.postimg.org/bz769dly9/Armageddon.gif)

(http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/279/2796805/2924823-2406322755-SAotU.gif)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nergal on October 13, 2015, 06:13:05 PM
IMO, keeping players engaged is equally as important if not moreso as keeping staff engaged, for a couple of reasons:

1) There are far more players than staff (who are also players, but for the sake of this thread, let's just call us staff for now)
2) Without players, there would be no staff, and there would also be no game

So with that in mind, we are absolutely open to receiving advice, ideas, and criticism. The problem is when this criticism is nonconstructive or hyperbolic, or comes off as insulting, or as an attempt to divide and conquer. We can't improve if conversations are cluttered, or lost in the pagerolling void of RAT, or players don't bring up their concerns clearly and directly in some form. We can do literally nothing if disgruntled former players decide to start lying about their situations via other means of communication and current players drink from the poisoned well. So while staff can be, should be, and ultimately are committed to helping players have fun, and keeping them interested in and engaged with the game, we also need some open and honest talk from the players who feel slighted or hurt by staff decisions. We need to read clear thoughts rather than vague ideas. We need to see suggestions for improvement instead of accusations and insults. And I'm not singling out any player in particular for doing something bad, and I think this thread has been fine so far. On a similar tack I hope players will treat staff with the same respect (and they largely do).

I think our game has seen a net positive improvement over the years, it has become OOCly more fair to its players, and it's my wish that the game gets better at accommodating everyone.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 06:20:57 PM
I think you should take a single or possibly a pair of staffers and appoint them with the duty of reaching out to past scorned players in an attempt to get those players to come back.

I think if those players do come back they should have their account marked in some way so that the pair of staffers who were designated to bring them back are the ones who handle them and their requests for their first year back. (or some other length of time)

You can call these staffers the, "Public Relations" staffers. They are new fresh faces that haven't developed a "persona" with past scorned players and their job would be to try and mend up old relationships. Old players coming back wouldn't be facing someone they have been taught to hate, and they wouldn't even have to deal with them for a long time after they come back. The staffers who took on this role would be two people who were truly interested in being these emissaries and not two people who have learned to hate these old players due to past petty arguments.

Basically...it would be a clean slate for returning players who are working on a truly clean slate with "clean staffers" who haven't been taught or haven't learned to have a pre-conceived opinion about the players.

Will some of those players screw up no matter how many new chances you give them? Yes. But, will some of them redeem themselves and possibly build a new relationship if given enough time in game without having to "face old demons"? I would wager some will.

It might not be a perfect idea but it would probably get us further than both sides just pointing fingers and calling the other side liars back and forth into infinity, which is what we have now and it accomplishes nothing.

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 06:29:59 PM
The problem with your idea, Desertman, is that a good percentage of those who were banned from Armageddon did so in a way that probably no Staff would ever want to trust them again no matter what.

Could you trust an ex Staff who went on to reveal a whole bunch of little secrets? Or someone who went on and revealed a whole bunch of RL gossips about Staff, ex staff and players, out of spite?

They haven't left silently, cursing the Staff deep inside, they did it in most public ways and in ways that the upper Staff probably wouldn't trust them again no matter what.

Also, let's be honest, most of these people who've been banned are currently still playing under a proxy or a new IP.

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 06:51:17 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 06:29:59 PM
The problem with your idea, Desertman, is that a good percentage of those who were banned from Armageddon did so in a way that probably no Staff would ever want to trust them again no matter what.

Could you trust an ex Staff who went on to reveal a whole bunch of little secrets? Or someone who went on and revealed a whole bunch of RL gossips about Staff, ex staff and players, out of spite?

They haven't left silently, cursing the Staff deep inside, they did it in most public ways and in ways that the upper Staff probably wouldn't trust them again no matter what.

Also, let's be honest, most of these people who've been banned are currently still playing under a proxy or a new IP.

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)

Anyone who didn't codedly hack the game and thus weren't a physical threat to the health of the game should get a pass. Everything else is just hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 06:20:57 PM
I think you should take a single or possibly a pair of staffers and appoint them with the duty of reaching out to past scorned players in an attempt to get those players to come back.


I agree with this in concept, but would go about it completely differently.  Spending a bunch of time and effort writing emails and extending an olive branch doesn't really create value for the returning player...

Why not have these two staff sponsor a role call that targets inactive/retired players instead?  Handle the role call, and then support the roles...  No problem with making the sponsorship temporary too, so it doesn't have to be very long commitment.  Here's an example of what that might look like:

Quote
Dear Former Player,

Something wicked is brewing in Armageddon, and we want you to be part of it!  

We have a secret role call going on right now, and it's only for returning players.   Why only returning players you might ask?  Well, we need some players who aren't attached to their current roles, and don't have any previous dispositions towards existing characters.  I.E. players who don't have any problems with getting their hands dirty :)

Applicants beware, that while these roles will be capable of living full and interesting lives, things might get a bit...bloody... so apply at your own risk.  

These roles have no karma requirements, but some karma-only options are available.

<Insert a bunch of rules, contact information, etc, etc....>


Personally, something like this would more likely to entice me back into playing the game than getting an email from a random new staffer I've never worked with trying to smooth over issues that might be years old by now.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: manipura on October 13, 2015, 06:59:32 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 06:20:57 PM
I think you should take a single or possibly a pair of staffers and appoint them with the duty of reaching out to past scorned players in an attempt to get those players to come back.


I agree with this in concept, but would go about it completely differently.  Spending a bunch of time and effort writing emails and extending an olive branch doesn't really create value for the returning player...

Why not have these two staff sponsor a role call that targets inactive/retired players instead?  Handle the role call, and then support the roles...  No problem with making the sponsorship temporary too, so it doesn't have to be very long commitment.  Here's an example of what that might look like:

Quote
Dear Former Player,

Something wicked is brewing in Armageddon, and we want you to be part of it!  

We have a secret role call going on right now, and it's only for returning players.   Why only returning players you might ask?  Well, we need some players who aren't attached to their current roles, and don't have any previous dispositions towards existing characters.  I.E. players who don't have any problems with getting their hands dirty :)

Applicants beware, that while these roles will be capable of living full and interesting lives, things might get a bit...bloody... so apply at your own risk.  

These roles have no karma requirements, but some karma-only options are available.

<Insert a bunch of rules, contact information, etc, etc....>


This would really only work for inactive/retired players who still lurk around on the GDB though.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 07:00:09 PM
Quote from: manipura on October 13, 2015, 06:59:32 PM


This would really only work for inactive/retired players who still lurk around on the GDB though.

I meant for it to be both a GDB posting, and an email blast to inactive account emails.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 13, 2015, 07:07:28 PM
You know, I am a bit offending by this.  I'm just going to be completely honest.  My job on the Indies Team is to represent the Indie Groups that are trying to make their way to Minor Merchant House status.  Not only this, but I have also been working closely with Nyr and Rathurstra on ways we can improve on the Player Clan system as a whole, a system that is designed to allow for players to make a mark on the world and create a clan from scratch.  It isn't easy, you do have to jump through some hoops, but it shouldn't be easy.  Nothing is easy in Zalanthas.

When I first came on staff back in 2007, there was no building allowed, no plots allowed, and basically no code changes allowed, because of the work happening on Arm Reborn.  This was understandable, why put effort into a game that is going to be closed for a new one.  The only way a player had the ability to put a mark on the world was by the Mastercrafting System, which back then it was harder to get those approved through staff.

Now players have the ability to work towards making a player clan, right now only MMH, but there is talks and things we are doing to try to expand this out to other player groups that might not be interested in MMHs, but that takes time and effort to work out.  Plus the current Player Groups that are trying to become a MMH are really helping us develop this and allowing us to work out the kinks.  (Thank you to the players that have assisted with this, you know who you are.)

Next we have Plots... Staff driven and created plots that we come up with when we as Staff members go through a process of writing up the plot, vetting it, making sure we have all avenues worked out, and then implement.  There is some time and effort that goes into these, and there are some going on right now!  Shit, I have loved to see the scared looks on peoples faces when the recent one started!  FLYING FUCKEN SPIDERS!  WTF?!  Oh, there is an end to a plot, and that end COULD (keyword here is could) have a mark on the world.  Then you have Player driven plots that can have Staff support, but at the discretion of staff.  Before Player Driven Plots were ONLY player driven, Staff support would only come in the reaction of the world.  Now Staff is more able to assist in such plots.  I can quickly count a handful right now that are Player Driven plots that could have an affect on the game world.

Oh!  Now we have building!  Wait, buildings now have roofs on them?  Staff is working so freaken hard to make this world better than ever.

Check your facts before you go talking about how players can't do things to change the word.  I see them doing it all the time and are now enabled to do so.

Maybe I am taking this a bit personal, but my main job is to make sure players can make their mark on this game world, and damn it... I'm rooting for one of them to do it.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Lizzie on October 13, 2015, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 06:51:17 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 06:29:59 PM
The problem with your idea, Desertman, is that a good percentage of those who were banned from Armageddon did so in a way that probably no Staff would ever want to trust them again no matter what.

Could you trust an ex Staff who went on to reveal a whole bunch of little secrets? Or someone who went on and revealed a whole bunch of RL gossips about Staff, ex staff and players, out of spite?

They haven't left silently, cursing the Staff deep inside, they did it in most public ways and in ways that the upper Staff probably wouldn't trust them again no matter what.

Also, let's be honest, most of these people who've been banned are currently still playing under a proxy or a new IP.

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)

Anyone who didn't codedly hack the game and thus weren't a physical threat to the health of the game should get a pass. Everything else is just hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.

Perhaps that's true but there are some former players, both staff and non-staff, who have trashed other players (non-staff) publically in other parts of the game-playing web - personally, I wouldn't want to learn that I'm playing with any of those people. I'd rather play with a whopping 10 players on average, six of whom are noobs and only one true veteran, than have even three of those players who have made very public efforts to insult players and staff by name in other fora, even if those three were hand-picked by Nyr himself and double-approved by both Sanvean and Halaster.

Why would you want to invite back people who have made it incredibly clear that they can't stand you?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 07:20:19 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2015, 07:07:28 PM
Ath's post...

In my opinion, player's having the ability to make a meaningful impact on the world is better today than it ever has been in the many years I've been playing.  But as you said yourself, this capability was virtually non-existent until recently, so while the process has certainly improved it still feels like it has a long way to go.  With that said, it seems like it's on the right trajectory towards that continued improvement...so kudos there!

I think all the big picture work you're doing on this is great, but if you want to constructive criticism, I'd suggest making it easier for aspiring indie clans to get real estate sooner, either by creating more warehouses, or creating trading company facilities.  There shouldn't be a super long waiting list to get facilities, the difficult part should be gaining political/social status and fending off the GMH's...not having a place to congregate and paying Nenyuk a boat load of coin for the privilege.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 07:27:42 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 13, 2015, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 06:51:17 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 06:29:59 PM
The problem with your idea, Desertman, is that a good percentage of those who were banned from Armageddon did so in a way that probably no Staff would ever want to trust them again no matter what.

Could you trust an ex Staff who went on to reveal a whole bunch of little secrets? Or someone who went on and revealed a whole bunch of RL gossips about Staff, ex staff and players, out of spite?

They haven't left silently, cursing the Staff deep inside, they did it in most public ways and in ways that the upper Staff probably wouldn't trust them again no matter what.

Also, let's be honest, most of these people who've been banned are currently still playing under a proxy or a new IP.

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)

Anyone who didn't codedly hack the game and thus weren't a physical threat to the health of the game should get a pass. Everything else is just hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.

Perhaps that's true but there are some former players, both staff and non-staff, who have trashed other players (non-staff) publically in other parts of the game-playing web - personally, I wouldn't want to learn that I'm playing with any of those people. I'd rather play with a whopping 10 players on average, six of whom are noobs and only one true veteran, than have even three of those players who have made very public efforts to insult players and staff by name in other fora, even if those three were hand-picked by Nyr himself and double-approved by both Sanvean and Halaster.

Why would you want to invite back people who have made it incredibly clear that they can't stand you?


This falls into hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 07:34:27 PM
Someone who's unable to control their feelings to the point of launching personal attacks and holding a grudge for years over a text--based roleplaying game is not someone I would trust to have the maturity and patience needed to be a good staffer, nor even be a good player. The onus is on them to grow up and apologize, not Armageddon staff or community to invite them back.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jingo on October 13, 2015, 07:35:16 PM
It's better now by a long shot.

If you wanted to get involved in any of the cool plots back in the 2000's you would have had to have Halaster or Naionia and probably some others invite you into one of their plots to get cool things to happen.

Granted, the days of the Halaster plot is over and so that comes with a toning down of some of the craziness during that era. But now staff are much much more accountable. Kudos to the administrative team for that.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 08:07:14 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 07:27:42 PM
This falls into hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.

Maybe if they posted a daily vine video (that's how kids call them these days, right?) of them taking their medicine, that'd go a long way.

Let's face it, a lot of our playerbase are mentally ill and clinically depressed, so it's not like they're planning on snapping and going nuts, so if you forgive them you never know when they'll go in rabid mode once more, no matter what they say.

(I take my meds daily so I think that's why Staff tolerates me. They also know that I'm just the harmless raving madman at the corner of the street spouting nonsense that, once in a blue moon, might have some sort of hidden wisdom sent by the Gods)

- I will also gladly admit that I often use hyperbole and overly-exagerated examples in my ranting but that's just part of my weird sense of humor - just like I'm not offended that Nyr made a thread that makes it sound like I randomly lost it, I'm also hoping/thinking that he knows there's really nothing more than my usual bitching behind those words. I still think Armageddon is a great game and I'm probably just jealous of those who still have lots of time to enjoy it, you all suck for it!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 08:26:03 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 07:34:27 PM
Someone who's unable to control their feelings to the point of launching personal attacks and holding a grudge for years over a text--based roleplaying game is not someone I would trust to have the maturity and patience needed to be a good staffer, nor even be a good player. The onus is on them to grow up and apologize, not Armageddon staff or community to invite them back.

If this were an episode of The Days of our Lives I would say this is a pretty good argument...but it isn't, and really, none of the drama matters. It gets us nothing and paying any attention to it beyond giving it a passing chuckle only shows how immature we are regardless of how immature they are.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jingo on October 13, 2015, 08:45:38 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 08:26:03 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 07:34:27 PM
Someone who's unable to control their feelings to the point of launching personal attacks and holding a grudge for years over a text--based roleplaying game is not someone I would trust to have the maturity and patience needed to be a good staffer, nor even be a good player. The onus is on them to grow up and apologize, not Armageddon staff or community to invite them back.

If this were an episode of The Days of our Lives I would say this is a pretty good argument...but it isn't, and really, none of the drama matters. It gets us nothing and paying any attention to it beyond giving it a passing chuckle only shows how immature we are regardless of how immature they are.
I don't think it's staff responsibility to reach out to hostile players. But we shouldn't give them more attention than they deserve?

Wtf is d-man and all the sem-valid points he is making lately.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Molten Heart on October 13, 2015, 08:46:47 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 07:34:27 PM
Someone who's unable to control their feelings to the point of launching personal attacks and holding a grudge for years over a text--based roleplaying game is not someone I would trust to have the maturity and patience needed to be a good staffer, nor even be a good player. The onus is on them to grow up and apologize, not Armageddon staff or community to invite them back.

The onus is on staff to be professional.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jingo on October 13, 2015, 08:50:59 PM
Professionalism has nothing to do with accepting or putting up with abuse. That's generally where the problem comes in.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 13, 2015, 09:03:19 PM
I've said all I can and care to say on the subject.

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 09:04:00 PM
This was my biggest fear when I learned that Talia was gone.

She seems to have a calming effect and a sense of professionalism that was contagious to both Staff and players alike. Armageddon is always at its best when it has a motherly figure willing to offer us her cyberteats on to which we can latch and feast on the milky wisdom they have to offer. Talia and Sanvean were great examples of such.

Since she is gone it seems like the players/staff divide is slowly creeping back, like I wrote a few days ago (snarky answers and the like)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Molten Heart on October 13, 2015, 09:05:13 PM
Quote from: Jingo on October 13, 2015, 08:50:59 PM
Professionalism has nothing to do with accepting or putting up with abuse. That's generally where the problem comes in.

Being profesional is about creating working solutions. Squabbling with critics and putting them in their place is unprofessional.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: LauraMars on October 13, 2015, 09:07:09 PM
(http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/059687/images/blackwhite/pokemans_054.gif)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 13, 2015, 09:08:27 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 09:04:00 PM
This was my biggest fear when I learned that Talia was gone.

She seems to have a calming effect and a sense of professionalism that was contagious to both Staff and players alike. Armageddon is always at its best when it has a motherly figure willing to offer us her cyberteats on to which we can latch and feast on the milky wisdom they have to offer. Talia and Sanvean were great examples of such.

Since she is gone it seems like the players/staff divide is slowly creeping back, like I wrote a few days ago (snarky answers and the like)

Pffffffffffffft. She's been gone what, a week? Have you even played since then?

She's exactly universally missed, either. I might consider playing under the Southern team again. Nothing against her personally, I just didn't like playing under her staffing style. It's just a personality difference that I respect and play around.

So there's a flipside to everything.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Lizzie on October 13, 2015, 09:14:47 PM
First of all, they aren't professionals. I don't know why that word keeps being pushed. What do any of you know about professional MUD admins? With very few exceptions - most of which are owned by only two companies worldwide - MUD administration is not a profession. And if you've ever played one of those professionally-staffed games, you'd see how utterly ridiculous your demands that our Armageddon staff be "professional" sounds. The staff here is far better than there. It's run better here than there. Even your least favorite staffer here, is exponentially superior to the least favorite staffer there. The atmosphere here is more like an interactive fantasy story, while there, it's more like a roadrunner cartoon.

The use of the word "professional" with regards to Armageddon staff is just as much a pet peeve of mine as pushing for "realism" in a fantasy game with sorcerers and humans who spar in apartments without managing to piss off the landlord.

Next, to the point:

This game is much different from what it used to be. It has different ownership, different administration, different player base. The overall theme is the same, but the rest just isn't. Remember that this game originated as a H&S. It wasn't always RP-intensive. In that, it's much better.

What some people loved about the past is the same thing that some people hated about the past. Personally, I never liked the concept of the Tan Muark. I never wanted to play one, and I really didn't like RPing with those characters. I also wasn't all that fond of the staff emphasis on them, the whole water-slide thing (yes, it's a euphemism, but it's still apt). The Tuluk bardic circles were treated similarly for a very long time, and I couldn't stand that either.

What I see now, is a shift away from the extreme, and a push toward the moderate. Unfortunately, moderation does not make for exciting game play. Although extremes did involve favoritism, focus on super-fantastical and the mundane becoming the perpetual underdog, it was much more exciting when that was the case. Now, my biggest enemy is probably just some chick who thinks I fucked her boyfriend, or the noble who didn't like the way I bowed to him. Back then, the enemy was fire and ash and defiling and evil incarnate and spooky shit and exploding backpacks.

Yes, the magick stuff was over the top. But that's pretty much the point of playing a fantasy game - to experience over the top.

I don't think the game is stagnating, I just think it needs to stop trying to balance itself and push the dial up more toward the extreme again.

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Taijan on October 13, 2015, 09:25:40 PM
The spirit of Desertman's idea is good. It's been done before, in fact.  Whether it was successful or not isn't my place to say.  However, keep in mind that the decision to outright ban someone isn't made lightly.  As the reasons for each ban vary case by case, so do decisions whether or not to attempt to reach out and repeal a ban in place.

Furthermore, a number of bans are the result of the nth attempt at settling a disagreement failing to achieve satisfactory results by more "mature" means.

Quote from: Molten Heart on October 13, 2015, 08:46:47 PM
The onus is on staff to be professional.

While it is important for staff to be professional, your wording (unsure if it's intended this way) suggests that the player in the equation is excused from a similar expectation, which I couldn't disagree with more. Treating someone else horribly shouldn't ever happen unless mutual consent is given and one party is being well compensated for the experience.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 13, 2015, 09:31:48 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 13, 2015, 09:14:47 PM
My biggest enemy is probably just some chick who thinks I fucked her boyfriend.

Since this won't fit on my license plate, I'm totally stealing it for my sig!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 13, 2015, 09:53:16 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 07:20:19 PM
I think all the big picture work you're doing on this is great, but if you want to constructive criticism, I'd suggest making it easier for aspiring indie clans to get real estate sooner, either by creating more warehouses, or creating trading company facilities.  There shouldn't be a super long waiting list to get facilities, the difficult part should be gaining political/social status and fending off the GMH's...not having a place to congregate and paying Nenyuk a boat load of coin for the privilege.

I have to agree with you on this one, but the issue is the limitations that places.  If we did it with the way the apartments are run, if someone doesn't show up to pay their rent on time, then a complete warehouse of goods is now available to the first bidder.  The way we do it now, if someone doesn't pay the rent, we wait, and if we don't do something, Nenyuk could (if we have to) seize the goods.  They could then sell it back to the person or whatever would happen in that incident.  While changing the code to do something like we need to perform some of these action could be difficult to do so.  Now you could say that if someone doesn't pay their rent, it's their loss... but I would hate for someone to just pay the rent and then get all the goods inside.  Nenyuk should take that stuff and put it on a merchant to sell off at a lower price to make a quick/easy profit.  Hmmmm... now -that- is an idea.  A merchant that sells the stuff people leave in their apartment.

Adding this:

Quote from: Lizzie on October 13, 2015, 09:14:47 PM
I don't think the game is stagnating, I just think it needs to stop trying to balance itself and push the dial up more toward the extreme again.

YES YES YES YES YES!  But do you know what happens when you dial up the damage/death/harshness/kill/murder/death/betrayal/racism/hate/brains?  People cry, whine, bitch, complain.  I have made it a personal effort to make the game more harsh.  Here is what my staff avatar looks like...  sdesc: Darth Ath the Hatenator  Why?  Because I must let the HATE FLOW!  Mwahahahaah!

Just a bit tad over the top... yes.  Oh well.  Deal with it.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: whitt on October 13, 2015, 10:06:47 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2015, 09:53:16 PM
 A merchant that sells the stuff people leave in their apartment.

Elf Derail #378!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jingo on October 13, 2015, 10:39:36 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on October 13, 2015, 09:05:13 PM
Quote from: Jingo on October 13, 2015, 08:50:59 PM
Professionalism has nothing to do with accepting or putting up with abuse. That's generally where the problem comes in.

Being profesional is about creating working solutions. Squabbling with critics and putting them in their place is unprofessional.
Yes. But it's about doing what you describe in a certain framework. It's perfectly professional to disassociate someone who has no interest in following the rules or playing nicely.

Also I'm a critic of staff. I don't generally feel like I've been put anywhere or that anyone is interested in squabbling with me.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 10:52:42 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2015, 09:53:16 PM

YES YES YES YES YES!  But do you know what happens when you dial up the damage/death/harshness/kill/murder/death/betrayal/racism/hate/brains?  People cry, whine, bitch, complain.  I have made it a personal effort to make the game more harsh.  Here is what my staff avatar looks like...  sdesc: Darth Ath the Hatenator  Why?  Because I must let the HATE FLOW!  Mwahahahaah!

Just a bit tad over the top... yes.  Oh well.  Deal with it.

They only bitch and moan when it's a staff avatar doing the murdering/death/betrayal thing.  Give the power to PCs.  Allow excellent, trusted players to play sponsored "villain" roles, with the expected levels of power.   I call them villains, but in reality, it's just "the opposition" of the city-states, or the "Templars" of the wilds.  We allow people to play sponsored Templars, who are pretty damn powerful, why not give the non-city states similar opportunities?

Maybe it's a d-elf sorceress, or a Nilazi Cult Leader/raiding party, a demon from another plane... whatever it is doesn't really matter as long as its motives are not aligned with the Allanaki majority of the player population.  It'll be a lot of work to support, but it'll be more controlled that full sorcs were if you give them power from the start, and grow their power as they achieve objectives, instead of just gaining it through training.

It'll add a sense of danger to the world, give something for the majority to fight and probably defeat.  But that's fine, villain roles are hard, and having high turnover in them is probably a good thing to give those players a break...  They won't mind, as long as it didn't take them 6 RL months to develop the villain by spamming spells in a cave somewhere.  Let them start with that power, and they'll burn brightly and then probably die...but leave plenty of cool memories behind for everyone involved.

Of course, all of this is highly dependent on having only the best players taking these roles.  Ones that can walk the fine line between playing a scary motherfucker, and not PKing gratuitously.

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Lizzie on October 13, 2015, 10:55:10 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 13, 2015, 09:53:16 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 13, 2015, 07:20:19 PM
I think all the big picture work you're doing on this is great, but if you want to constructive criticism, I'd suggest making it easier for aspiring indie clans to get real estate sooner, either by creating more warehouses, or creating trading company facilities.  There shouldn't be a super long waiting list to get facilities, the difficult part should be gaining political/social status and fending off the GMH's...not having a place to congregate and paying Nenyuk a boat load of coin for the privilege.

I have to agree with you on this one, but the issue is the limitations that places.  If we did it with the way the apartments are run, if someone doesn't show up to pay their rent on time, then a complete warehouse of goods is now available to the first bidder.  The way we do it now, if someone doesn't pay the rent, we wait, and if we don't do something, Nenyuk could (if we have to) seize the goods.  They could then sell it back to the person or whatever would happen in that incident.  While changing the code to do something like we need to perform some of these action could be difficult to do so.  Now you could say that if someone doesn't pay their rent, it's their loss... but I would hate for someone to just pay the rent and then get all the goods inside.  Nenyuk should take that stuff and put it on a merchant to sell off at a lower price to make a quick/easy profit.  Hmmmm... now -that- is an idea.  A merchant that sells the stuff people leave in their apartment.

Adding this:

Quote from: Lizzie on October 13, 2015, 09:14:47 PM
I don't think the game is stagnating, I just think it needs to stop trying to balance itself and push the dial up more toward the extreme again.

YES YES YES YES YES!  But do you know what happens when you dial up the damage/death/harshness/kill/murder/death/betrayal/racism/hate/brains?  People cry, whine, bitch, complain.  I have made it a personal effort to make the game more harsh.  Here is what my staff avatar looks like...  sdesc: Darth Ath the Hatenator  Why?  Because I must let the HATE FLOW!  Mwahahahaah!

Just a bit tad over the top... yes.  Oh well.  Deal with it.

Gimme sorcs and sekrit clans and "engineers" (nudge nudge wink wink to anyone who even remembers that reference in-game) and flash powder, and hell, why not - even toss a kank into the rinth alleys and blow the idiot up who dragged the poor schmuck in. He'll make a pretty red splash on those dreary mudbrick walls and we can call it art.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:26:57 AM
But players can already play villains if they want to.  There is nothing against them doing so, if anything I would encourage it.  Unless you are talking about staff supported in some way.  Which I can't get into details... but this has already happened.  The issue is you have to depend on a player to not die within the first week of playing the role.  The idea is there, it has been done, but execution of it may not always be visible to the players as a whole.  I love the idea, I think we should do it more... maybe I'll try to do something like that.  I appreciate the sentiment, I will remember it.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 14, 2015, 12:34:52 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:26:57 AM
But players can already play villains if they want to.  There is nothing against them doing so, if anything I would encourage it.  Unless you are talking about staff supported in some way.  Which I can't get into details... but this has already happened.  The issue is you have to depend on a player to not die within the first week of playing the role.  The idea is there, it has been done, but execution of it may not always be visible to the players as a whole.  I love the idea, I think we should do it more... maybe I'll try to do something like that.  I appreciate the sentiment, I will remember it.

It's all about limiting the amount of skill training investment for a villain.  Your best outcome is a glorious death, and having to spend 6 months to the skills to be a threat is really tedious.  Let trusted players skip that part, and you've got a good formula for villainy.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:51:43 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 14, 2015, 12:34:52 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:26:57 AM
But players can already play villains if they want to.  There is nothing against them doing so, if anything I would encourage it.  Unless you are talking about staff supported in some way.  Which I can't get into details... but this has already happened.  The issue is you have to depend on a player to not die within the first week of playing the role.  The idea is there, it has been done, but execution of it may not always be visible to the players as a whole.  I love the idea, I think we should do it more... maybe I'll try to do something like that.  I appreciate the sentiment, I will remember it.

It's all about limiting the amount of skill training investment for a villain.  Your best outcome is a glorious death, and having to spend 6 months to the skills to be a threat is really tedious.  Let trusted players skip that part, and you've got a good formula for villainy.

But we don't do that for Templars or Nobles, they have skills that they have to work on.  Why should we give an advantage right out of the box for a Villain?  I'm not trying to be condescending here, but I do like the input.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: MeTekillot on October 14, 2015, 01:06:45 AM
Nobles have skills they're supposed to work on?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Narf on October 14, 2015, 01:23:42 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:51:43 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 14, 2015, 12:34:52 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:26:57 AM
But players can already play villains if they want to.  There is nothing against them doing so, if anything I would encourage it.  Unless you are talking about staff supported in some way.  Which I can't get into details... but this has already happened.  The issue is you have to depend on a player to not die within the first week of playing the role.  The idea is there, it has been done, but execution of it may not always be visible to the players as a whole.  I love the idea, I think we should do it more... maybe I'll try to do something like that.  I appreciate the sentiment, I will remember it.

It's all about limiting the amount of skill training investment for a villain.  Your best outcome is a glorious death, and having to spend 6 months to the skills to be a threat is really tedious.  Let trusted players skip that part, and you've got a good formula for villainy.

But we don't do that for Templars or Nobles, they have skills that they have to work on.  Why should we give an advantage right out of the box for a Villain?  I'm not trying to be condescending here, but I do like the input.

MeTekillot sounds facetious, but he actually has a good point. You could wipe ever skill on a noble or templar's list except sirihish and they would still be terrifying to the average player. Add contact to the list and you nearly double that already tremendous power.

It's not really comparable.

That said, I do hear you on how much of a waste it can be to have a Plot oriented character die far too quickly to be worth the investment. I just don't think nobles are a good meter stick for less civilized antagonists (criminal and raiders) who are extremely dependent on their skills both for survival and success in their role. Those sorts need to be examined on a whole different scale.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Rokal on October 14, 2015, 01:30:03 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:51:43 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 14, 2015, 12:34:52 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:26:57 AM
But players can already play villains if they want to.  There is nothing against them doing so, if anything I would encourage it.  Unless you are talking about staff supported in some way.  Which I can't get into details... but this has already happened.  The issue is you have to depend on a player to not die within the first week of playing the role.  The idea is there, it has been done, but execution of it may not always be visible to the players as a whole.  I love the idea, I think we should do it more... maybe I'll try to do something like that.  I appreciate the sentiment, I will remember it.

It's all about limiting the amount of skill training investment for a villain.  Your best outcome is a glorious death, and having to spend 6 months to the skills to be a threat is really tedious.  Let trusted players skip that part, and you've got a good formula for villainy.

But we don't do that for Templars or Nobles, they have skills that they have to work on.  Why should we give an advantage right out of the box for a Villain?  I'm not trying to be condescending here, but I do like the input.

I understand where they're comming from, but I also understand the need to let a villian grow.

When a villian grows, their villianous deeds start small, and slowly grow as they get more skilled, a villian can do more and more ,the only issue is ... well, Sometimes, it sucks to do this, because you cant' get to the true villiany right away, if anything, your nothing more then a minor bully, and people will step in and stomp it down before anything can be done, but if the villian is successful, it can make for awesome rp. ANother issue is that many players take upon the idea of a villian being a villan from the start, and this can set them up for failure right away, IMO anyway, when starting with a fresh character that has to build up skills, and is -my- preffered way to go about villany.

Theres also the issue of - all of that time invested, only to see it get crushed by something random, or some upstart happening. i kind of agree that people should be allowed to make more skilled out characters from the get go (outside of extended subguild apps) for the simple purpose of making those interesting situations ,rp ,and such. It simply saves a player time - most of hte players of arm dont have the time to invest in a game to skill up their characters non stop, in my experience. (i sure dont)

Creating a villian thats already 'ahead' allows for very fun plots to happen, all the same - but, in my experience roleplaying, it isn't as  (Not always though) deep as a successfully developed villian, but all the same, it cna make for  lots of fun stuff. Armageddon characters take a lot of time to develop to do the big things, and I thin kwhat some players are asking for are the chance to atempt the 'biger things' without having to spend six months of their effort being capable of doing them.

After all, people Rp for fun. a game that requires too much effort for the 'fun', isnt fun!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: titansfan on October 14, 2015, 02:44:58 AM
The game is much different now than it was. Staff are more accountable for their actions, yes. Players are still accountable for their actions. Blazing infernos of doom no longer exist openly on a regular basis, good. Real dangers that drool ooze and spit venom now exit more openly, amazing. The game world is expanding on a level it hasn't for a long time, wicked sweet. Now all we need is to fix the city elf race and what it's possibilities are.

Fer realz though.....such a pain to play a race without any clans/tribes to join. But overall, I think the game is better in the idea that staff are more accountable now. However, certain aspects are still a work in progress which is expected and most likely will get worked out with the rate at which things are getting done these days.

I am by far not Staff's best friend, nor am I an enemy. But I applaud the work that has recently been done to try and improve/clean-up things in this game.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Vwest on October 14, 2015, 03:31:04 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 14, 2015, 12:34:52 AM
It's all about limiting the amount of skill training investment for a villain.  Your best outcome is a glorious death, and having to spend 6 months to the skills to be a threat is really tedious.  Let trusted players skip that part, and you've got a good formula for villainy.

Every character is a villain to someone and a glorious death is the best outcome for every character.

If I have to earn every sliver of coded power my characters have, so should you and so should everyone else. What we do with that coded power is entirely on the individual and the risk versus reward factor, ie; is killing this PC and their time investment worth risking my PC and my time investment, should be enough to keep everyone's actions against each other measured and reasonable.

"Trusted player" is a really shady qualifier, too.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Suhuy on October 14, 2015, 05:00:51 AM
Quote from: Ath

But we don't do that for Templars or Nobles, they have skills that they have to work on.  Why should we give an advantage right out of the box for a Villain?

Do role call bynner sergeants not get boosted skills straight out the box? If so, I imagine it's to facilitate a certain part of the game: in this case, a clan. And if not, its a wonder they can lead a bunch of mercenaries when they only have the starting skills of a 0 day ranger or warrior. Boosting a special app villain would be the same thing.

I suppose anyone can apply for something through the special app function as it is, but advertising for a role like this is sure to gain attention!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 14, 2015, 05:32:04 AM
Quote from: Vwest on October 14, 2015, 03:31:04 AM
Every character is a villain to someone and a glorious death is the best outcome for every character.

Yeah, okay, semantics.   Villain isn't the key word, "opponent" is what I mean.  Opposing forces.  Raiders, rogue sorcerers, demonic cultist, slave rebellion leaders, spice smugglers, etc.  All of these kinds of roles have an extremely short life span if you're doing anything to actually stir up conflict.

Quote from: Vwest on October 14, 2015, 03:31:04 AM

If I have to earn every sliver of coded power my characters have, so should you and so should everyone else. What we do with that coded power is entirely on the individual and the risk versus reward factor, ie; is killing this PC and their time investment worth risking my PC and my time investment, should be enough to keep everyone's actions against each other measured and reasonable.


Coded power has never been equitably distributed.  Different classes are wildly more powerful than others on day one, and some have vastly different power progression curves.  Even amongst the same mundane classes, the difference between an AI strength warrior and an average strength warrior is enormous.  Some 10 day magickers can kill absolutely any mundane character in the game with virtually zero risk.  These characters haven't "earned every sliver" of that power, they were born with it.   Risk vs. reward is not what's keeping these character's actions measured and reasonable, the player behind the character is what's doing that.  

With that said, some roles which would add a lot of conflict to the game tend to have extremely short lifespans once they become publicly known (and thus, adding the conflict and fun to the game).  If it takes 240 RL hours of play time to make this character into something that's codedly dangerous (10 days played...which is just scratching the surface for most classes), and thus be able to take that conflict-generating path, you're asking them to sacrifice a tremendous amount of real life time in order to create that "opposition" in the game world.  Instead, they'll play it safe (and boring) and we'll have a lot of status quo every day.  Remove or greatly reduce the amount of time investment in order to create that "opposition" and you'll see a lot more of it in the world.

Quote from: Vwest on October 14, 2015, 03:31:04 AM

"Trusted player" is a really shady qualifier, too.

Naw, it isn't.  The same qualifier applies to plenty of roles already, be it a sponsored role or Karma restricted class/race.   I don't see why the same level of trust cannot be offered to a "villain" type.   A Templar PC can do a hell of a lot more harm than any villain, and can do so legally...
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Mordiggian on October 14, 2015, 05:46:35 AM
I'm just going to very vaguely touch on some things I probably shouldn't be talking about because they're still cooking and I don't want to set a deadline or expectations on myself or any of the people I'm working with.

My currents projects include:

- Revamping/expanding a geographic area of the game on a scale that is really enormous not only in terms of the work required, but in what it will add to the game.
- Preparing a significant 'dynamic world' plot line/event for PCs and groups outside of Allanak, with an emphasis on a non-static outcome to allow for player involvement to determine what the resulting effects are
- Discussing potential ways players can be brought into the aforementioned event as 'sponsored' antagonists
- City elf clan. Nuff said.
- working with my team and another team to execute a dynamic world plot that is entirely the result of the actions and efforts of PCs in the past
- numerous smaller projects including crafting recipes for all items in clans I oversee, de-virtualizing existing wildlife, expanding/updating documentation of two clans I oversee to allow players to do some neat stuff


On the subject of red tape and additions/changes to the game:

Recently, a new PC joined one of my clans. Right off the bat, this PC raised the question of adding a room to the clan's holdings for a particular purpose and theme. I thought it was a great idea and I ran it by my boss (Rathustra). I communicated with the player where we would need to meet in the middle on certain aspects and ran it by the rest of my team. The PC in question submitted some descriptions for me and within a week the addition was built and in-game, and is now a permanent aspect of that clan and the clan documentation.

I've had PCs in my clans ask about <secret magic thing here> that arguably doesn't happen in this day and age. I raised the subject with Rathustra and the rest of the team, sought input from the producers, and determined that yes, the PCs may feasibly accomplish this with time, effort, good roleplay, and adherence to documentation.

I had a PC in a clan ask about getting a few items from an ancient, defunct clan loaded. The next day, I pulled the entire list of items for said defunct clan, updated and fixed typos and stat issues with over 30 of them, and added them to the list of available items for my clan.

A PC in one of my clans asked about setting up an RPT of their own design that would require a new, non-mastercraft object. I checked with my boss (Rathustra) and dialogued with the player to work out the details. Boom. Done.


Sometimes, this doesn't always happen like this. I've had PCs ask about <insert various other new things here>. With few exceptions, I don't click that decline button and go NOPE. If it's something I'm tentative about, I consult the rest of my team, and the player/s in question to see if it's workable in another iteration. Sometimes, the answer is no. I know that sucks sometimes to be on the receiving end of, but we have to accept that sometimes not everything we want is the greatest idea. This is true for staff as well as players. There's not a magic Aura of Agreement and Harmony in staff land. Sometimes (many times!) one of us has an idea, or goal, or process to achieve a goal that others disagree with. Sometimes, these things might get shot down. Sometimes we have to can an idea entirely, or put it on hold to revisit when the time is right. None of this happens because of someone in staff land saying "OH PLAYERS MIGHT HAVE FUN WITH THAT. NOPE." Sometimes, what might be fun for one player, or a group of players, may have a detrimental impact on many more players. Some changes or additions may have long term effects that we can't immediately identify, and even if we don't know what those effects will be, we have to consider their potential inception.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Mordiggian on October 14, 2015, 05:55:05 AM
p.s. Talia isn't gone gone. Real life is a thing, and real life obligations arise. Talia's pressing duties are covered by another immortal while she handles the real world, because it would be lame to just let that stuff languish.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Patuk on October 14, 2015, 05:58:56 AM
I'm asking this here and not ATS because there's a number of staffers who appear to read this thread, but do you actually need help in building a new celf clan? One month after I submitted the part one pocket edition abridged extensive docs of mine I ended up fleshing out another idea and wanted to hit myself for not submitting that instead.

I'd also not mind my old docs being reused, since I kiiiiiinda made those just to ensure they'd be viable even if the tribe would get coded. Said docs had some good ways to solve problems celf tribes might have, such as recruitment and whatnot.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Vwest on October 14, 2015, 06:58:27 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 14, 2015, 05:32:04 AM
Yeah, okay, semantics.   Villain isn't the key word, "opponent" is what I mean.  Opposing forces.  Raiders, rogue sorcerers, demonic cultist, slave rebellion leaders, spice smugglers, etc.  All of these kinds of roles have an extremely short life span if you're doing anything to actually stir up conflict.

You're just plain wrong.

I've seen most of the above do very well for prolonged periods of time, all while being well-known centers of conflict. They aren't an every day success story, but they aren't supposed to be, either.

QuoteCoded power has never been equitably distributed.  Different classes are wildly more powerful than others on day one, and some have vastly different power progression curves.  Even amongst the same mundane classes, the difference between an AI strength warrior and an average strength warrior is enormous.  Some 10 day magickers can kill absolutely any mundane character in the game with virtually zero risk.  These characters haven't "earned every sliver" of that power, they were born with it.   Risk vs. reward is not what's keeping these character's actions measured and reasonable, the player behind the character is what's doing that.

Everyone should have to do the skill grind was the point I was making. You're being unnecessarily wordy and obtuse.

QuoteWith that said, some roles which would add a lot of conflict to the game tend to have extremely short lifespans once they become publicly known (and thus, adding the conflict and fun to the game).  If it takes 240 RL hours of play time to make this character into something that's codedly dangerous (10 days played...which is just scratching the surface for most classes), and thus be able to take that conflict-generating path, you're asking them to sacrifice a tremendous amount of real life time in order to create that "opposition" in the game world.  Instead, they'll play it safe (and boring) and we'll have a lot of status quo every day.  Remove or greatly reduce the amount of time investment in order to create that "opposition" and you'll see a lot more of it in the world.

If I have to spend 240 hours of my time to have a character with 240 hours worth of power for my choice of Guild / Race, so should you and so should everyone else. If you want to spend yours being an in-your-face menace to people and end up dying young? That's your choice, but that choice should in no way entitle you to short cuts or extra benefits just because you think it adds more to the game than someone elses choice of character.

QuoteNaw, it isn't.  The same qualifier applies to plenty of roles already, be it a sponsored role or Karma restricted class/race.   I don't see why the same level of trust cannot be offered to a "villain" type.   A Templar PC can do a hell of a lot more harm than any villain, and can do so legally...

Yea brah, it is.

Everyone knows Karma is a crapshoot at best and a favor tool at worst, but if you want to approximate karma with trust, then you've already got a karma-based option for some minor skill bumps. If you think you need '240 hours' worth of skill increases to make a 'villain / opponent / gank4flavor' character viable, you're doing it terribly, terribly wrong.

Templar or noble roles are unique and not really relevant to the point I was making.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Mordiggian on October 14, 2015, 07:09:30 AM
Quote from: Patuk on October 14, 2015, 05:58:56 AM
I'm asking this here and not ATS because there's a number of staffers who appear to read this thread, but do you actually need help in building a new celf clan? One month after I submitted the part one pocket edition abridged extensive docs of mine I ended up fleshing out another idea and wanted to hit myself for not submitting that instead.

I'd also not mind my old docs being reused, since I kiiiiiinda made those just to ensure they'd be viable even if the tribe would get coded. Said docs had some good ways to solve problems celf tribes might have, such as recruitment and whatnot.

I'll tell you what, Patuk. Hit me with a request (use a Character Report and address it to one of the desert elf tribes) with suggestions/thoughts/input you might have about how a c-elf clan can be executed and I'll check it out. I can't promise that you'll get an in-depth response or a bunch of feedback on your ideas because I'm going to copy paste the contents to our IDB brainstorming thread and then close out the request. But I recognize that you might have some valuable input that could be factored into our internal planning.

Quote from: Vwest on October 14, 2015, 06:58:27 AM
Everyone knows Karma is a crapshoot at best and a favor tool at worst, but if you want to approximate karma with trust, then you've already got a karma-based option for some minor skill bumps. If you think you need '240 hours' worth of skill increases to make a 'villain / opponent / gank4flavor' character viable, you're doing it terribly, terribly wrong.

This is the only part of this post I want to respond to right now. We have a publicly viewable set of standards for how karma is awarded. We do not typically award more than one point at a time, or more than one point in a given period of time. My advice to anybody submitting a Karma Review request is to check out the categories for which karma is awarded, and make your case in your request for how you feel you have qualified in a given category.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eurynomos on October 14, 2015, 10:00:03 AM
I tried to find more red tape but home depot was out of stock.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2015, 10:01:15 AM
Quote from: Mordiggian on October 14, 2015, 07:09:30 AM
Quote from: Vwest on October 14, 2015, 06:58:27 AM
Everyone knows Karma is a crapshoot at best and a favor tool at worst, but if you want to approximate karma with trust, then you've already got a karma-based option for some minor skill bumps. If you think you need '240 hours' worth of skill increases to make a 'villain / opponent / gank4flavor' character viable, you're doing it terribly, terribly wrong.

This is the only part of this post I want to respond to right now. We have a publicly viewable set of standards for how karma is awarded. We do not typically award more than one point at a time, or more than one point in a given period of time. My advice to anybody submitting a Karma Review request is to check out the categories for which karma is awarded, and make your case in your request for how you feel you have qualified in a given category.

This ^^^ very much this.  Karma is going to be a work in progress for a long time.  I just suggested someone get their 8th recently and I justified it all by the categories, I asked other staff for feedback, other staff agreed, so I then awarded it.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jingo on October 14, 2015, 10:07:22 AM
I just want my goddamn breakfast burrito.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Inks on October 14, 2015, 10:24:49 AM
Patuk's elf docs were legit, fyi.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Harmless on October 14, 2015, 10:46:34 AM
Because I had so many good memories in this game, I will still give it a try now and then, but I've been tuning out steadily for several months. Unlike maybe some other players who aren't playing as much lately, I drifted off because I became more interested in other things to do with my free time (hell, I was even going to a gym for a few months) and less so because of some kind of anger or feeling of rebellion.

Now that I learned through glancing at this thread that Talia and Cav are taking a break, I feel like my break couldn't have been better timed. ;)

I still participate in the GDB and try to start/participate in an interesting discussion now and then, but I think the number of meaningful hours in game I've clocked over the past month is zero, even though I am waiting on an extended subguild app at the moment. :)

As for the topic at hand, some good things were said early in the thread; I think given how many times I've had role apps rejected, been denied promotions or leadership roles, etc, I might be bitter, but honestly I just haven't tried as hard as some other players have for those spots, so I don't feel like I am allowed to be totally bitter. The standstill of my RP is partly my fault, and partly the fault of a difficult system designed to filter the quality from the noise. I don't get paranoid about it and suspect that staff are aiming to mistreat me or single me out. At times I do get a little depressed that despite playing roughly 6-7 years, I still only have 2 karma (and got my second karma last year, for the first time), and that despite 35+ PCs I've never made a single one that amounts to more than a common crook, a stooge, a lackey, or a grunt. Since this thread is about how "red tape" and beauracracy is what makes the game suck, maybe all my denied requests and inability to get certain past PCs promoted -- at least before immortal-controlled or spawned mobs killed them off -- counts as a part of that? Or maybe I'd just be a genuinely bad leader, I dunno.

In general, though, I have been willing to accept staff's answers to my various role apps, requests asking about promotion, etc. Over the years I also have seen quite a lot of these kinds of responses: a.) I didn't file my requests correctly, b.) I didn't communicate appropriately, c.) I haven't been playing as much or as hard as other players have been, d.) I haven't read the documentation/background adequately. It's been at the point now for years where I just expect these responses and barely even read them when they come back.

And by the way, I have been very quiet lately on the request front. No current beefs over anything, just a general sense of very, very low expectations, and very little willingness now to even put myself out there in an attempt to get something. That feeling not only contributes to why I decide to take long breaks, but why I don't "try hard" once I'm in game and have an involved character.

To any staff reading this, don't worry. I'm happy with arma, I'm just also not playing it -- it's likely because I've been taking a step back that I feel positively at all towards the game, to get away from the BS. I have no current rants or fucks to give, but Malken did put himself out there by bringing up the topic, and I wanted to support him and others in his boat by sharing my feelings about players being "held back" by staff's current system of management... so there it is.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 14, 2015, 10:49:30 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 08:07:14 PM
- I will also gladly admit that I often use hyperbole and overly-exagerated examples in my ranting but that's just part of my weird sense of humor - just like I'm not offended that Nyr made a thread that makes it sound like I randomly lost it, I'm also hoping/thinking that he knows there's really nothing more than my usual bitching behind those words. I still think Armageddon is a great game and I'm probably just jealous of those who still have lots of time to enjoy it, you all suck for it!

I didn't think you'd randomly lost it or anything like that.  I thought it was a little funny that you were being nonspecific and hyperbolic at the same time, so I responded in kind by naming the thread that.  I meant to bring some levity to the discussion, nothing more nefarious than that :)  Like I said earlier, I think that if one has concerns, they are legitimate and could/should be discussed...they just were taking away from another thread.

Quote from: Taijan on October 13, 2015, 09:25:40 PM
The spirit of Desertman's idea is good. It's been done before, in fact.  Whether it was successful or not isn't my place to say.  However, keep in mind that the decision to outright ban someone isn't made lightly.  As the reasons for each ban vary case by case, so do decisions whether or not to attempt to reach out and repeal a ban in place.

Furthermore, a number of bans are the result of the nth attempt at settling a disagreement failing to achieve satisfactory results by more "mature" means.

Quote from: Molten Heart on October 13, 2015, 08:46:47 PM
The onus is on staff to be professional.

While it is important for staff to be professional, your wording (unsure if it's intended this way) suggests that the player in the equation is excused from a similar expectation, which I couldn't disagree with more. Treating someone else horribly shouldn't ever happen unless mutual consent is given and one party is being well compensated for the experience.

I can give more information on that.  We previously posted about having a ban amnesty at the beginning of 2013. 

Results: 
6 players responded addressing that directly at the time (2 responded much later, and only one of those was actually banned, but that's not related to the stats). 
Of those 6, one was a GDB return request.  It was not granted at the time, but it was enabled later on after some more review.
Of the remaining 5, only one was rejected outright, for reasons mentioned below in general.  The rest were allowed to return.

I think it generally went pretty well.

The same probably can go for now--you can submit an appeal request or e-mail to the Producers regarding a ban.  The cases where that won't be granted are pretty clear-cut.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Beethoven on October 14, 2015, 11:10:16 AM
This is going to be a bit...rambling, I guess, so I'm sorry.

I also want to preface this by saying that I'm not a "go-getter" sort of player. I don't have the imagination for it. I enjoy playing flavor characters and minions that hopefully help "go-getters" achieve their goals.  I'm perfectly happy having my commoner scrubs live meaningless lives before dying in obscurity. I don't think I've ever even tried to effect lasting change, so I personally have no idea how easy, hard, or utterly futile it is. That having been said...

I think both players and staff would agree that there is a pervasive perception, true or false, that Armageddon is not (or is no longer) conducive to player-driven change, small or large, and that one runs into an impossible wall of bureaucracy, red tape, and naysaying when one tries to accomplish that sort of change. I'm sure this idea is frustrating to staff members like Mordiggan who go out of their way to facilitate player-driven plots and change. I can definitely see that. You work hard to accomplish X, and people don't notice, they just keep complaining about the lack of X. So I can understand why the dialogue so often goes like this:

Players: We want to be able to make our mark on the game world!

Staff: You already can! I recently helped players accomplish [stuff].

And maybe it's true that many players hear over and over that the game world is static, that players aren't capable of altering it in any meaningful way, and don't even give it a try before joining in the complaints, thus turning the criticism into a self-fulfilling prophecy. And maybe others, when sharing their personal anecdotes about how they were shut down when trying to accomplish something, are leaving out important information. Maybe all of those things are true, but despite that...I can't imagine this idea of a static gameworld where players who want to change things end up banging into a bureaucratic wall over and over stems solely from players' imaginations. This is a very specific perception that is not going away, and I would think it's there for a reason, even people tend to exaggerate about it.

Staff can address these criticisms however they see fit, of course. But I do wonder if, saying "this is already possible, you're just not trying" (or something else that feels like being told that) is the ideal response. Surely, for something like this that keeps coming up over and over, the better response would be "All right, we hear you. We're already doing [stuff], but we'd like to make you feel that you're more able to leave your mark. How can we facilitate that?"

Because while I may not be a goal-oriented player, the last thing I want to happen is to have this perception, true or false, drive away goal-oriented players. Maybe instead of telling players they're just wrong or not seeing the whole picture or whatever, staff can communicate with players and try to change the way Armageddon is viewed, in a positive way.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 11:40:08 AM
Quote from: Nyr on October 14, 2015, 10:49:30 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 08:07:14 PM
- I will also gladly admit that I often use hyperbole and overly-exagerated examples in my ranting but that's just part of my weird sense of humor - just like I'm not offended that Nyr made a thread that makes it sound like I randomly lost it, I'm also hoping/thinking that he knows there's really nothing more than my usual bitching behind those words. I still think Armageddon is a great game and I'm probably just jealous of those who still have lots of time to enjoy it, you all suck for it!

I didn't think you'd randomly lost it or anything like that.  I thought it was a little funny that you were being nonspecific and hyperbolic at the same time, so I responded in kind by naming the thread that.  I meant to bring some levity to the discussion, nothing more nefarious than that :)  Like I said earlier, I think that if one has concerns, they are legitimate and could/should be discussed...they just were taking away from another thread.

Quote from: Taijan on October 13, 2015, 09:25:40 PM
The spirit of Desertman's idea is good. It's been done before, in fact.  Whether it was successful or not isn't my place to say.  However, keep in mind that the decision to outright ban someone isn't made lightly.  As the reasons for each ban vary case by case, so do decisions whether or not to attempt to reach out and repeal a ban in place.

Furthermore, a number of bans are the result of the nth attempt at settling a disagreement failing to achieve satisfactory results by more "mature" means.

Quote from: Molten Heart on October 13, 2015, 08:46:47 PM
The onus is on staff to be professional.

While it is important for staff to be professional, your wording (unsure if it's intended this way) suggests that the player in the equation is excused from a similar expectation, which I couldn't disagree with more. Treating someone else horribly shouldn't ever happen unless mutual consent is given and one party is being well compensated for the experience.

I can give more information on that.  We previously posted about having a ban amnesty at the beginning of 2013.  

Results:  
6 players responded addressing that directly at the time (2 responded much later, and only one of those was actually banned, but that's not related to the stats).  
Of those 6, one was a GDB return request.  It was not granted at the time, but it was enabled later on after some more review.
Of the remaining 5, only one was rejected outright, for reasons mentioned below in general.  The rest were allowed to return.

I think it generally went pretty well.

The same probably can go for now--you can submit an appeal request or e-mail to the Producers regarding a ban.  The cases where that won't be granted are pretty clear-cut.

I'm going to respond to this since I was referenced.

This isn't what I'm talking about. (Not that what I'm talking about nor my opinion matters to anyone here in any way.)

Wrong or right, the people who you are giving the above option to aren't going to view it as the Staff here trying to get them back as valued players.

They will view it as you telling them, "You can come back and kiss my ass and if you do it well enough I will allow you to play my game.".

That is how that will be seen. Wrongly or rightly, that is the option you are presenting them with in their minds. I'm sure you understand that. That is the olive branch you are presenting when you think of who you are presenting it to.

Maybe it's more important to make them feel like they were "put in their place" than it is to get them back as veteran players. I don't know.

I'm sure you don't view it that way. But I want to make sure you understand that the people you are presenting it to DO view it that way.

They aren't going to kiss your ass to be allowed back into YOUR game. (especially you specifically, which I'm sure you are aware of)

I'm not saying you are right or they are right. I'm just pointing out the reality.

The option you are presenting them with isn't going to go anywhere because it's not really a genuine offer in the minds of the people you are saying you are giving it to.

If we genuinely care about pulling back those veteran players more than four or five at a time...we need to do a little more than look at it from only our point of view.

But, maybe we don't care enough to do that. I don't know. I'm just a player who wants back quality players.

It is important to consider who the offer is going to when deciding how you want to present it. The offer being presented now in the format it is being presented in now WILL be received as, "If you come back and kiss my Nyr-Ass and admit you are my bitch, you can play my game.". That's not going anywhere on the production front in terms of accomplishing a goal.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: whitt on October 14, 2015, 12:09:22 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on October 14, 2015, 11:10:16 AM
I think both players and staff would agree that there is a pervasive perception, true or false, that Armageddon is not (or is no longer) conducive to player-driven change, small or large, and that one runs into an impossible wall of bureaucracy, red tape, and naysaying when one tries to accomplish that sort of change.

It's my opinion, as neither a noob nor a crusty-vet, that most I hear with this opinion are either (a) Not actively playing, so just gdb'ing hearsay or (b) have played Arm for so long that the their idea of "trying again" is some 6-8 karma spec app that requires staff intervention to start and regular staff-interaction because they have a specific area of the game world they want to influence in a very specific way.  When their idea is not approved, for whatever reason or doesn't receive adequate support the above is why.

Oh.  I should also mention (c) a new player that has been told by either (a) or (b) that it's not even worth trying. 

My experience has been a bit different over the past year plus.  I've watched really awesome RPTs happen at pretty regular intervals.  I've participated in player-driven initiatives (as part of more than one clan) that left lasting impacts on the game world that aren't going anywhere without an equally significant effort by an equally large group of players.  I have witnessed the sudden vacuum that occurs when a clan staff vanishes because Life Happens.  I've had the month of downtime where I wondered where everyone went.  I'll be straightforward and say that the MMH process, given the average lifespan of a PC, seems virtually impossible to attain with any members that started the process being alive at the end. But, that said, it is a new process.  Until someone makes it through it's all new work with no template to build from.  I'd expect it, like other process, to go faster in time.  But, all of that said, the bureaucracy and process don't cause that.  The process is in place to make sure one player has the same chance to make a change to the game world as anyone else.  Communicate.  Discuss.  Be willing to accept No for an answer.  Be willing to move on to next Goal.  And no... that "same chance" is not zero.

All of that adds up to me, as a player, being really jaded toward those who hold the above opinion, especially those that last played a year (or often more) ago, but still spew rhetoric.  I tend to read it as "I'm a special snowflake" and "Give me what I want or I'll take my ball and leave". 
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Rathustra on October 14, 2015, 12:18:28 PM
I started playing long after 'the good old days' and became staff deep within the years where everyone was waiting for Arm 2. I came on board as a bureaucrat - I knew from my interview that staffing would involve managing the request tool, animating and (rarely) building.

It was great! I loved filing character reports for unclanned indies. It was a pleasure to give them an electronic high-five for all the cool stuff these players, players who I identified with as someone who rarely played in clans and had 0 karma for the majority of my Arm career, were up to. I still enjoy answering these (much rarer) requests because they're more fun to go over than the analysis involved in a clan leader's report.

Today I can say that Storytellers have a much more 'exciting' life - the balance of requests to building and animating is completely different. Whereas I spent my ST days fixing typos or updating old areas, a ST in my clan group can look forward to combining our variety of scripts and tools into increasingly creative ways.

But I'm still a product of the Armageddon I played. I favor stability and gradual progress and couldn't imagine the sort of stuff that past staff got up to. We still have to dig up and figure out what some of the garbage past Staff built and didn't properly document is related to. There are things in the wastes that literally none of us know the story behind.

I'm also someone who never played high-karma or high-trust roles as a player. I don't believe in special treatment, 'favoured' players or having relationships with players about the game outside of the request tool. All special roles I'll ever authorize will be advertised like any other role call.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2015, 12:23:39 PM
Indie team loves reading Character Reports, send them to us!  I have seen Character Reports from non-sponsored roles drop off as of late.  You may think they mean nothing, but I know I like seeing them as I can only watch you so much.

I also agree with Rath, I have never played a Templar or Noble or really any major sponsored role.  I have played a minor role here or there, but nothing that could really make too much of a difference.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 14, 2015, 12:52:49 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 11:40:08 AM
stuff

When it boils down to it, if someone got banned permanently, they did something that the staff at the time thought was deserving of that ban.  If they want more than staff right then/right now saying "we are willing to listen to an appeal", they are probably expecting too much. 

There are very few people we'd say "no" to, by the way.  Those exceptions:


That's it.  Looking at the above and double checking that with Adhira, that's 3 players.  So the offer's there, still open, whether it is believed to be genuine or not.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Beethoven on October 14, 2015, 12:55:16 PM
I actually alluded to the fact that some players may just be repeating the opinion because of hearsay and the reputation the game already has, and might not have actually tried to change things themselves. And you're right, people may be ridiculously ambitious as well. That's another possibility.

But I do think it's a problem that Arm has that reputation in the first place. I know it's easy to say that everybody who holds the opinion that the gameworld is too static is just wrong, but even if they are, I feel like that perception still needs to be addressed beyond "I did this and that to facilitate a player-run plot, so it's all in your mind." But I'm not the person to figure out exactly how to address it, because I'm not a mover and shaker.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 01:02:46 PM
Quote from: Nyr on October 14, 2015, 12:52:49 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 11:40:08 AM
I'm going to respond to this since I was referenced.

This isn't what I'm talking about. (Not that what I'm talking about nor my opinion matters to anyone here in any way.)

Wrong or right, the people who you are giving the above option to aren't going to view it as the Staff here trying to get them back as valued players.

They will view it as you telling them, "You can come back and kiss my ass and if you do it well enough I will allow you to play my game.".

That is how that will be seen. Wrongly or rightly, that is the option you are presenting them with in their minds. I'm sure you understand that. That is the olive branch you are presenting when you think of who you are presenting it to.

Maybe it's more important to make them feel like they were "put in their place" than it is to get them back as veteran players. I don't know.

I'm sure you don't view it that way. But I want to make sure you understand that the people you are presenting it to DO view it that way.

They aren't going to kiss your ass to be allowed back into YOUR game. (especially you specifically, which I'm sure you are aware of)

I'm not saying you are right or they are right. I'm just pointing out the reality.

The option you are presenting them with isn't going to go anywhere because it's not really a genuine offer in the minds of the people you are saying you are giving it to.

If we genuinely care about pulling back those veteran players more than four or five at a time...we need to do a little more than look at it from only our point of view.

But, maybe we don't care enough to do that. I don't know. I'm just a player who wants back quality players.

It is important to consider who the offer is going to when deciding how you want to present it. The offer being presented now in the format it is being presented in now WILL be received as, "If you come back and kiss my Nyr-Ass and admit you are my bitch, you can play my game.". That's not going anywhere on the production front in terms of accomplishing a goal.
whether it is believed to be genuine or not.

Alright then.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: whitt on October 14, 2015, 01:26:12 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on October 14, 2015, 12:55:16 PM
But I do think it's a problem that Arm has that reputation in the first place.

Understood and agreed.  Didn't mean my response as a jab.

More as a pointing out that a lot of the most vocal supporters of that reputation seem, to me as a still relatively new player, to be people who are (in political terms) still complaining about the Democratic party's support for secession and slavery while hailing the Republicans as the Party of Lincoln.   They've never tried to do what their complaining about with current staff.  They're still fixated on things that happened, sometimes, as much as a decade ago.  When they stopped playing.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: seidhr on October 14, 2015, 01:52:39 PM
Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

;D ;) ;D
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Narf on October 14, 2015, 02:16:06 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2015, 01:52:39 PM
Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

;D ;) ;D

You should probably include the link part of that hyperlink.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 02:32:10 PM
I'll just repeat something I've said for a while now; I think it would really help to put greed back into the game. Tone down the crafting subguilds. Give people ways to demonstrate status and wealth (e.g. own homes, commoner titles and privileges that can be "won" (e.g. bought) from nobles and templars, steel weapons slightly available again, make it possible to purchase an exemption from the law against literacy, etc.) and characters will compete and kill for them. Bribery, robbery, raiding, clan pay, chasing after noble patronage.. all will come back in force.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: LauraMars on October 14, 2015, 02:57:31 PM
Quote from: Narf on October 14, 2015, 02:16:06 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2015, 01:52:39 PM
Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

;D ;) ;D

You should probably include the link part of that hyperlink.

its just underlined
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2015, 03:15:47 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 02:32:10 PM
I'll just repeat something I've said for a while now; I think it would really help to put greed back into the game. Tone down the crafting subguilds. Give people ways to demonstrate status and wealth (e.g. own homes, commoner titles and privileges that can be "won" (e.g. bought) from nobles and templars, steel weapons slightly available again, make it possible to purchase an exemption from the law against literacy, etc.) and characters will compete and kill for them. Bribery, robbery, raiding, clan pay, chasing after noble patronage.. all will come back in force.

My question here for you is have you tried any of this?  A Noble or Templar could easily give you a title of "Kank Wrangler" but that doesn't mean anyone is going to care, unless it was backed by the Highborn.  As for becoming a Noble, that just isn't possible within the documentation/culture of Allanak.  I mean, unless you can beat a Black Robe in a card game and win a Title or if Tek decides it.  Have you ever approached a Noble and said, hey... I have this great idea to make money and steal from all these peoples, I just need your help.. blah blah blah.  If I was playing a Noble and if some commoner came to me with a way that I could make some coins and then blame the commoner and have them killed if they screw up, yes I would do it!  Who is going to believe the pissant of a commoner over my word?  No one.

What I'm saying is so many of you come up with great ideas and think you can't do them... does it hurt to ask?  Character reports are a great way to pass an idea by staff and for them to give you their opinions on it.  I know if I answer a Character Report for Indies and you have an idea, I'll try to give you some sort of feedback on how to do it in a way it would work IC and with Staff, or maybe I'll point you in another direction.  I won't tell you exactly how to do things, that's not my job, but I can at least give you information within documentation and tell you if it plausible or not.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 03:17:03 PM
I've been given two unofficial yet public titles by sponsored roles in the past with my commoners.

10/10 - Would be unofficially too-cool-for-school again
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 14, 2015, 03:17:32 PM
Quote from: Narf on October 14, 2015, 02:16:06 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2015, 01:52:39 PM
Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

;D ;) ;D

You should probably include the link part of that hyperlink.

If you meant me, I haven't played in exactly a year and a half -IC-, give or take.

If you meant Nyr, pretty sure he still plays!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 03:22:27 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 03:17:03 PM
I've been given two unofficial yet public titles by sponsored roles in the past with my commoners.

Just not the same as hard-coded titles and privileges. Like being able to sit in a special section of the Arena stands, not the noble section but still separated from stinking riffraff like the Byn, breeds and 'rinthers. Like having NPCs recognize you and address you by the title. Like winning an important arena championship and appearing on an official mural. Etc.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 03:24:43 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 03:22:27 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 03:17:03 PM
I've been given two unofficial yet public titles by sponsored roles in the past with my commoners.

Just not the same as hard-coded titles and privileges. Like being able to sit in a special section of the Arena stands, not the noble section but still separated from stinking riffraff like the Byn, breeds and 'rinthers. Like having NPCs recognize you and address you by the title. Etc.

I like the idea of coded titles that give you coded access to special perks.

(Kind of like how being in a noble/merchant House gives you access to special apartments in town other riffraff can't get into even though you are all technically commoners?)

But yeah, more of that would be cool.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Narf on October 14, 2015, 03:37:21 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 14, 2015, 03:17:32 PM
Quote from: Narf on October 14, 2015, 02:16:06 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2015, 01:52:39 PM
Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

;D ;) ;D

You should probably include the link part of that hyperlink.

If you meant me, I haven't played in exactly a year and a half -IC-, give or take.

If you meant Nyr, pretty sure he still plays!

I've become so used to being referenced to other threads with underlined words over the years that it's now just second nature to assume that all underlined words referencing a thread will be a link to another thread.

It was just a mistake in thinking seidhr was speaking of yet another thread.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: AdamBlue on October 14, 2015, 03:45:36 PM
HOW IN THE GLORIOUS FUCK DID MY HALF-HEARTED ON RAT SPAWN TWO THREADS WITH MULTIPLE PAGES
JESUS CHRIST
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 14, 2015, 05:28:18 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.

Part of being a social creature means that we like to talk, bitch, praise, complaint, rant and stomps our feet about stuff that we love and our passionate about, and a forum is a place that allows us to do so - It's been part of human history for thousands of years.

If we don't talk about this (even if we repeat ourselves constantly), we'll just talk about something else that might get on someone else's nerves, but some of us are just babbling among one another in this thread and we're not harming anyone doing so.

You're probably still reading this for the same reason that we're still writing about this - humans are attracted to car wrecks!

(it also keeps me sane while I'm trying to remember hundred of Japanese names and dates, so please bare with me :( )
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: ibusoe on October 14, 2015, 05:32:04 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 03:15:47 PM
My question here for you is have you tried any of this?  A Noble or Templar could easily give you a title of "Kank Wrangler" but that doesn't mean anyone is going to care, unless it was backed by the Highborn.  As for becoming a Noble, that just isn't possible within the documentation/culture of Allanak.  I mean, unless you can beat a Black Robe in a card game and win a Title or if Tek decides it.  Have you ever approached a Noble and said, hey... I have this great idea to make money and steal from all these peoples, I just need your help.. blah blah blah.  If I was playing a Noble and if some commoner came to me with a way that I could make some coins and then blame the commoner and have them killed if they screw up, yes I would do it!  Who is going to believe the pissant of a commoner over my word?  No one.


I have.

People, players and staff included, are resistant to the accumulation of soft power.  In essence, they resist the efforts of people to accomplish things or influence regional politics that fall outside of the Funnel.  

In some cases people react with outright hostility, they assume that Salarr is going to crush every single solitary arms peddlar, no matter how small, etc.

Does anyone remember the Black Scrabs?  They were pretty cool, right?  Made a few waves for a bit.  But they're kind of the exception that proves the rule.  

It seems that the climate is changing, that people are now more open to the story of "Independent dude rallies a bunch of friends, goes off and has some fun and adventures, leaves a small mark on the game-world, retires after seventeen or eighteen days played."

You know what I think would help?  If staff would give a token blessing to people who were making an effort to do things.  Remember the example of the guys who tried to start a brewery?  I think it would be cool if like, early in the foundation of something like that, maybe one of the staff members could animate a noble.  The noble could walk up to the brewer in front of a bunch of people, and place an order for a single keg of booze and pay for it.

This would send a powerful signal to people.  Maybe the brewer isn't a stupid nobody.  Sure, he's still a dirty unwashed commoner, but maybe he has a place in the world.  

Of course people could still rob him, could still extort him, could still fight him over his little place in the world.  Success would bring it's own set of perils.  
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 14, 2015, 05:37:25 PM
Why doesn't he just get a PC noble to back him?

I know nobles in game right now who would back him like a bone-studded backpack if he came up and showed he knew how to actually get things done.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2015, 05:59:45 PM
This is the whole point of the Player Clan System.  I will admit not every concept works great with it, but you could work towards something like a brewery.  The problem with this particular one is the difficulty of making new liquids in the game, right now there is no easy way to do it and requires a coder to do it.  So the MC system might not be the best thing for this.  It's rough, I love the concept, I could see it happening in game, but we're limited in execution a bit.  The concept of a Minor Merchant House is that they are have a single specialty of some sort that they base their existence off of.  Working to that goal is not supposed to be easy or quick.  Making a mark on the world shouldn't be easy or quick.

If you have some ideas that you want to try in game, I ask you to drop me a line via the request tool.  I'd be happy to discuss them with you so we don't have to worry about crossing into IC areas.  Put is in as Clan Related (Unclanned) Question/Request.  Reasonable requests will be answered, if you give me some far out ones, I'll just respond and close.  I'm trying to be serious here, if you have questions or ideas you want to try, ask.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 06:11:20 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.

Probably not the best idea to dismiss people when the player count is getting uncomfortably low.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 14, 2015, 06:14:21 PM
If we listen to every bitch and moan because the player count seems low, then the terrorists win.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 06:16:05 PM
If a deaf ear is turned to all "bitches and moans", no one wins.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Lizzie on October 14, 2015, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on October 14, 2015, 12:18:28 PMThere are things in the wastes that literally none of us know the story behind.

There are some "mysteries" in the game that are only mysteries because the people who knew about them don't play anymore - or their current characters have no reason to know about them, and therefore they don't talk about it. I know about quite a few things, from first-hand interaction, that no one ever mentions in-game, that I haven't even heard about on the GDB, that are no longer in the official docs - and the original docs are long gone because they were part of the old website and password protected.

So - if you -think- I might know about anything you're curious about, feel free to hit me with a vague query. If I know what you're talking about I'm more than happy to fill you in. I'd send this as a request, but I don't know how to send a "request to offer assistance if you request it, Rathustra" request :)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 14, 2015, 06:33:48 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 06:11:20 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.

Probably not the best idea to dismiss people when the player count is getting uncomfortably low.

OMG the player count is low!  Arm is dying!  Just because people are talking about it, doesn't make it true.  There are always peaks and valleys.

(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/weirdalfoil_2322.jpg)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Molten Heart on October 14, 2015, 06:40:25 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 06:16:05 PM
If a deaf ear is turned to all "bitches and moans", no one wins.
If only staff turn a deaf ear. It doesn't really concern the rest of the GDB community other than to better refine ideas though discussion.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 14, 2015, 06:14:21 PM
If we listen to every bitch and moan because the player count seems low, then the terrorists win.

Terrorists kill people. To my knowledge, no lives are lost in GDB discussions. You do make a good point in that it'd be nice if the signal to noise ratio on the GDB was lower.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: LauraMars on October 14, 2015, 06:41:19 PM
I liked Tuluk 2007. That was a good time.

(http://www.bestinshowdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/rose_colored_glasses.jpg)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ender on October 14, 2015, 06:49:13 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 06:33:48 PM

OMG the player count is low!  Arm is dying!  Just because people are talking about it, doesn't make it true.  There are always peaks and valleys.


Ehh... It's a bit quantifiable that we're seeing some pretty low lows lately.  Looking at the data it'd be good to figure out why and both staff and players can do to help.

2013 was our best year ever.  I attribute that mostly to a really awesome voting drive on both TMS and TMC as well as build up and execution of our last major HRPT.  For the last two years we've seen a pretty steady downward trend.

Tuluk's closure created interest again, but that interest has waned a bit since then as our weekly unique logins have reached four year lows.

(http://i.imgur.com/7Wa4VhZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: AdamBlue on October 14, 2015, 07:01:51 PM
Quote from: Ender on October 14, 2015, 06:49:13 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 06:33:48 PM

OMG the player count is low!  Arm is dying!  Just because people are talking about it, doesn't make it true.  There are always peaks and valleys.


Ehh... It's a bit quantifiable that we're seeing some pretty low lows lately.  Looking at the data it'd be good to figure out why and both staff and players can do to help.

2013 was our best year ever.  I attribute that mostly to a really awesome voting drive on both TMS and TMC as well as build up and execution of our last major HRPT.  For the last two years we've seen a pretty steady downward trend.

Tuluk's closure created interest again, but that interest has waned a bit since then as our weekly unique logins have reached four year lows.

(http://i.imgur.com/7Wa4VhZ.jpg)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here to say that it's going down because Tuluk's closed.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Narf on October 14, 2015, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: AdamBlue on October 14, 2015, 07:01:51 PM

I'm gonna go out on a limb here to say that it's going down because Tuluk's closed.

That doesn't make a lot of sense as during the time Tuluk was closing we had huge numbers, and they kept up for a while after.

I do think Tuluk closing is related to our recent drop in numbers, but I don't think it's a direct relationship.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jihelu on October 14, 2015, 07:20:05 PM
One of the things I experienced, or maybe not Idk also hey I'm posting after a while whats up, that kinda dissapointed me was I underestimated or atleast didn't think the game would be soooooo "Can't do it becuase of your class can't do it at all bby"
Scenario set up as
"Hey can I learn how to do X"
"No"

It's so damn heartbreaking.
If I wake up one day in real life and decide "I really want to box" I can learn to box. In Arm god just tells me I'm a bitch(not literally) and that he isn't real because the true god is too busy killing dirty Tuluki people in his Dargon form.

I like how the thread went to "Arm is dying" though. Kinda funny.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 14, 2015, 07:21:18 PM
Quote from: Narf on October 14, 2015, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: AdamBlue on October 14, 2015, 07:01:51 PM

I'm gonna go out on a limb here to say that it's going down because Tuluk's closed.

That doesn't make a lot of sense as during the time Tuluk was closing we had huge numbers, and they kept up for a while after.

I do think Tuluk closing is related to our recent drop in numbers, but I don't think it's a direct relationship.

Maybe my own experience can be applied to others who "left" the game as well, or not...

When they closed Tuluk, I returned to the game because I was excited by Talia's speech and such, and also because I thought that it was time for me to give Allanak a real good try, but I ended up not liking Allanak that much..

To me, what always brought me back to the game was Tuluk. If I read a good book and wanted to make up a character that was sorta like the guy I was reading about, Tuluk was it.

If I read about a great leader that I wanted to emulate, Tuluk was it. If I wanted to just netflix n' chill while killing stuff, Tuluk's grasslands was it.

Even if Tuluk was 'meh' for a lot of people, it's what always brought me back to the game and where I've always had the most fun, even when it was uber boring.

I don't like Allanak, I can't explain why, I just don't ok? I don't like Luir's either because it's so empty and 'dull', but I understand why people like both, I really do.

So if people who were purely Tuluk fan didn't get hooked on Allanak, then they probably just left because nothing is really bringing them back.

The only recent time I enjoyed Allanak was mostly because I was spending 90% of my time in the Byn compound or outside on suicidal missions. I will admit that I was really surprised at how much I liked the Byn.

So maybe I should give Allanak another shot but it's just not -grabbing- me back to Arm the way Tuluk used to, if it makes sense?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jihelu on October 14, 2015, 07:22:51 PM
I only liked Tuluk cause of fruit trees being my primary source of life.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nergal on October 14, 2015, 07:23:22 PM
Although there are usually downturns at the start of school up until midterms time, I think the most important factor to keeping player numbers up is regular voting. Even when player counts are relatively low, the players that are logging in are regular, consistent players, with none to a few new players. New players make the difference between 40 and 60 players at peak - either those trying out the game for the first time or those deciding to settle in, increasing the amount of regulars. That is why I've made it a morning activity for myself to bump the vote thread, and I will be doing it from the start of November as well to hopefully make the effects fully felt.

Hopefully you will also vote and spread word of the game through other means, if possible!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: In Dreams on October 14, 2015, 07:25:47 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 06:33:48 PM
OMG the player count is low!  Arm is dying!  Just because people are talking about it, doesn't make it true.  There are always peaks and valleys.

Not trying to get mixed up in anything here, but this seems like it's a lot of closing your eyes and pretending a problem isn't there.

(http://mudstats.com/ZedGraph/WeekSpecificGraph/2836)(http://mudstats.com/ZedGraph/SeasonSpecificGraph/2836)

I haven't played Arm for decades or whatever like some people have, and I don't know why like others claim to, but it doesn't take much to tell that that's historically low. This situation is very real and it definitely feels so in-game.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 14, 2015, 07:30:39 PM
Nice stats--they look like they are compiled from reported unique logins per week.

2013 -- yes, voting was great that year, but we never got back to consistent voting every month on TMS/TMC in 2014 or 2015.  That is very likely the root cause.  It's pretty easy to vote on TMC and TMS, but I definitely got tired of reminding everyone to do it.

Comparison:

2013
September total:  434 new accounts
TMS -- 49 (11.3%)
TMC -- 154 (35.5%)
friends/etc. -- 44 (10.1%)
Made a character/logged into the game:  78 (18% of total new accounts)
Retained player grep 1 (was still playing in the following month even though they created in this one):  7
Unique logins (avg): 284.75 per week

2015
September total:  159 new accounts
TMS -- 17
TMC -- ~60 (being generous, there was some overlap between TMS/TMC)
friends/etc. -- 15?  (I didn't dig too much into this one, I have to go soon, so it may be higher)
Made a character/logged into the game:  38
Retained from September to within the past few days:  7 (one with about 6 hours played, one with about 14 hours played, the rest clocking more than 2 days)
Unique logins (avg):  211.25 per week

Comparing those two months, it's about the same in terms of retained players (new players that logged in a lot that kept playing).

This is a good example of something that was definitely better before and now it is terrible:  voting.  We possess the means to stay at #1 on TMC and attract the eye of players that find that site (because they google MUDs).  We also possess the means to stay in the top 10 on TMS (if not the top 5, or #2 indefinitely until other MUDs realize we're actually trying again--that's what happened last time, after a few months they started voting competitively!).  

There's definitely two things I would guesstimate are at play here, and both would be backed by the data...

One is that voting drives unique player logins all by itself; that accounts for some bulk from new players that don't necessarily "know" at a glance that something is going on, they just see a voting rank on a page when they google the game, and they try it out.  You could even (possibly?) correlate the big months with heavy interest by staff/players in boosting vote numbers by getting the vote out there.  

The other is that larger staff-involved events drive player logins.  It's harder to tell in 2013 due to how much we were slaying it with votes, but there was a shit-ton going on in summer/fall of 2013, with staff-led and involved events every week.  2014 is less busy, but still busy at the beginning of the year (mix of drop-off in voting, mix of the events being largely Tuluki).  2014 sees another spike during the Halloween plot that year.  2015 sees a spike around the biggest events in Allanak (reminder to self:  we need to put that on the Chronology page, because it was baller), then a drop off afterwards.

What would help?  Moar votes, and moar plots.  Staff can't run plots indefinitely/all the time because it is really, really draining (and there's build-up and then denouement, and planning, and etc).  TV shows have seasons and downtimes.  Movies are released and then eventually leave the theater, then they show up on blu-ray.  Maybe we can come up with something that works for players and staffers that do this as a hobby, such that it doesn't destroy all of the free time of either...?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 14, 2015, 07:34:04 PM
Quote from: In Dreams on October 14, 2015, 07:25:47 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 06:33:48 PM
OMG the player count is low!  Arm is dying!  Just because people are talking about it, doesn't make it true.  There are always peaks and valleys.

Not trying to get mixed up in anything here, but this seems like it's a lot of closing your eyes and pretending a problem isn't there.

(http://mudstats.com/ZedGraph/WeekSpecificGraph/2836)(http://mudstats.com/ZedGraph/SeasonSpecificGraph/2836)

I haven't played Arm for decades or whatever like some people have, and I don't know why like others claim to, but it doesn't take much to tell that that's historically low. This situation is very real and it definitely feels so in-game.

The graph on the right is scary, but we are only 1/3 of the way into Fall 2015. There's no way that it can be accurate until AFTER the period it is graphing.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 14, 2015, 07:34:11 PM
The weird/sad/funny part is that, as the guy who is often mistaken for "someone who hates Armageddon but still continues to bitch on the GDB", I used to vote like 3-4 times a day from different IPs as I was moving along in my day, even when I didn't play, and those votes were often 1/4 of the daily votes total.

Nyr, in answer to your question, maybe those build-ups and denouement could be made more "public" and involve more players in them? I mean we often hear about plots and such that apparently everyone miss on because they don't catch the clue, so as a hopefully helpful advice, maybe have Staff try to find ways to make the before and after of the RPTs more "in-your-face" than subtle and veeeeeeeery slowly creeping on the playerbase?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 06:11:20 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.

Probably not the best idea to dismiss people when the player count is getting uncomfortably low.
I think Staff has been quite flexible in the past year, having added all sorts of fun things to the game, and they've been far from dismissing people (on the contrary. They've been very open and got a lot more lenient on the GDB too in the 4 years I've been playing). Just some people can never be satisfied because the game isn't running the way they want it to be.

Discussion? Yes. But your reply is exactly the reason why I'd never apply for staff.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Bushranger on October 14, 2015, 08:12:18 PM
When I was seventeen, it was a very good year
It was a very good year for independent rangers
Living for barely one day
Looking for scrabs to slay
With many deaths unforseen
When I was seventeen

When I was twenty-one, it was a very good year
It was a very good year for T'zai Byn Sergeants
Who fought dangerous things
And went on secret missions
Before it all came undone
When I was twenty-one

When I was thirty-five, it was a very good year
It was a very good year for a Dasari Chosen Lord
Who was a real noble clown
Before Tuluk was shut down
And retirement he had to contrive
When I was thirty-five

But now the log in counts are low, Armageddon is in the autumn of it's years
...

Bullshit. Folks grow up, things change. Stop trying to relieve old glories and enjoy what it is now! Out peaks are down a bit.. Boo Hoo. Out peaks used to be quite a bit lower than they are now! Then they got big, then they went down, then they got big.

Halflings used to drink beer in Flints alongside Vivaduan Clerics who worked for Merchants. Yes some players move on, they always will. Things were different in the past, so what? Grow a pair.

TLDR;
Stop being nostalgic old farts and start playing again or bugger off and let those who do want to play do so without random bullshit being bantered about for no good reason.

Cheers,

Bushranger.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 08:17:33 PM
Amen, Bushranger.

Also, let's not forget there's a change of Season with Staff. Some are new. Give them a bit of leniency to get into the game (it's hard to believe but staff is only human after all). The player count isn't lower because Staff sucks/are dictators. It's lower because people have other things to do and plot wise it has been a bit quiet (from my humble perspective) because of the above mentioned. That said: I have noticed an increase of animation of the NPC's. So it's getting there.


Moral of the story: just play like you did before. Increase of numbers will increase plot/action/adventure/morale.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 14, 2015, 08:26:49 PM
You forgot to angrily slam the flap of the tent on your way out, Iiyola!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: LauraMars on October 14, 2015, 08:47:30 PM
Quote from: Bushranger on October 14, 2015, 08:12:18 PMStop trying to relieve old glories and enjoy what it is now!

Don't tell me what to do!  You're not even my real dad!  GOD!

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me0bdxNXb01ryoms3o1_400.gif)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Case on October 14, 2015, 09:04:53 PM
Everything's better when I'm playing a templar
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Majikal on October 14, 2015, 09:29:45 PM
School starts, average logins drop for a bit, this happens every year. The games changed with the closure of Tuluk, new staff etc etc so some players leave and some players don't and others come back. I don't like this trend of jaded player mentality. I remember the days of e-mails and bouncing e-mails etc, now we have requests which are more like open dialogue and much easier to manage. I remember when player created clans weren't a thing, now there's a system to get a legit clan rolling with warehouse and npc backing WTF! THAT"S AWESOME! I've even seen the potential of getting a WAGON in the mix. I remember playing for months without an animation, now I'm present for two or three a week. Code changes aplenty, new rooms/buildings/npcs being added. The 'glass ceiling' has been lifted, seems not that many people were interested in breaking through it after all, just bitching about it being there. I played back in 'the golden years' and I played in the 'x-men' days and I joined in on the reign of halaster and his magickal posse of 1337 gear, I was the personal cause of destruction for what was my favorite clan in the game (red fangs). Some players seem to think staff 'slapped me down' on that, what most don't know is that I orchestrated it's rise and fall and nyr (if i remember correctly) threw me a bone at the end and asked me if I wanted to challenge for leadership of the tribe (PRETTY BIG DEAL), unfortunately I made some bad decisions (codedly) prior to the fight for leadership and died what is to this day my favorite death. You can see it in original submissions. From someone who's been through some definite changes in flavor of the game, my personal opinion the management of the game has improved overall, staff interaction has improved immensely, quality of players has improved enormously, griefing has decreased to the point I haven't touched the player/staff complaint button in a looooooooong time. I think my last time was way back when the charge code was broken for like 3 days and some asshat used it to kill my pc with repetitive charges (over the course of 15minutes). The game has improved, am I sad that Tuluk is gone? Yeah. Am I still having fun? Yeah. Honestly more fun in the last two years of play than I've had in the 12 prior. /rant

If you have an issue with a lack of new players in the game during the usual player lows this time of year, go vote. We weren't even on the first page the other day, that's embarassing. Nobody goes to page 2 of 'best muds' to find one they'd like to play, honestly... go vote.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Majikal on October 14, 2015, 09:34:45 PM
Quote from: Case on October 14, 2015, 09:04:53 PM
Everything's better when I'm playing a templar

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/TdmTcdoN3egaQ/200.gif)

JK. <3
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 10:06:48 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 06:11:20 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.

Probably not the best idea to dismiss people when the player count is getting uncomfortably low.
I think Staff has been quite flexible in the past year, having added all sorts of fun things to the game, and they've been far from dismissing people (on the contrary. They've been very open and got a lot more lenient on the GDB too in the 4 years I've been playing). Just some people can never be satisfied because the game isn't running the way they want it to be.

Discussion? Yes. But your reply is exactly the reason why I'd never apply for staff.

I didn't say anything about staff dismissing people. I said you're dismissing people. Basically you just said "shut the f--- up".
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 10:16:49 PM
If you interpret it like that, there's not much I can do about that. Besides, who am I anyway?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jingo on October 14, 2015, 11:47:02 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 10:06:48 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 06:11:20 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.

Probably not the best idea to dismiss people when the player count is getting uncomfortably low.
I think Staff has been quite flexible in the past year, having added all sorts of fun things to the game, and they've been far from dismissing people (on the contrary. They've been very open and got a lot more lenient on the GDB too in the 4 years I've been playing). Just some people can never be satisfied because the game isn't running the way they want it to be.

Discussion? Yes. But your reply is exactly the reason why I'd never apply for staff.

I didn't say anything about staff dismissing people. I said you're dismissing people. Basically you just said "shut the f--- up".

VALIDATE MEEEEEEEEEE
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jingo on October 14, 2015, 11:49:11 PM
And yes. I am being dismissive.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: LauraMars on October 14, 2015, 11:51:47 PM
All joking aside though, please play nice in here. Thanks.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Fergie on October 15, 2015, 12:13:18 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 06:33:48 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 14, 2015, 06:11:20 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 14, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.

Probably not the best idea to dismiss people when the player count is getting uncomfortably low.

OMG the player count is low!  Arm is dying!  Just because people are talking about it, doesn't make it true.  There are always peaks and valleys.

(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/weirdalfoil_2322.jpg)

Do you think this kind of response to a genuine concern is going to restore people's faith in the game? Or might it make them decide that it is indeed not going to improve if that's how staff "handles" an obvious problem? Insulting really. There's a serious problem, and dismissing that problem with scorn is only going to make that problem worse. I certainly don't feel confident that this will change when staff respond like that.

But then, staff decency is hardly a defining feature of this game. It's rather known for the opposite.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 15, 2015, 12:44:37 AM
I'd be more concerned if I got replies to my requests along those lines, and not to hyperbolic "circling the drain!" posts.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jingo on October 15, 2015, 01:15:41 AM
The expectation that staff should hire a marketing team and now a public relations team is kinda stupid.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Bushranger on October 15, 2015, 01:28:13 AM
Uhm... do Iyola and I look alike or something?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eurynomos on October 15, 2015, 01:40:12 AM
Ah, hey guys. I found a great hook up online for more red tape. There was much rejoicing.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Aruven on October 15, 2015, 02:59:52 AM
Quote from: Case on October 14, 2015, 09:04:53 PM
Everything's better when I'm playing a templar
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Majikal on October 15, 2015, 04:23:05 AM
Quote from: Jingo on October 15, 2015, 01:15:41 AM
The expectation that staff should hire a marketing team and now a public relations team is kinda stupid.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 05:01:21 AM
Quote from: Majikal on October 15, 2015, 04:23:05 AM
Quote from: Jingo on October 15, 2015, 01:15:41 AM
The expectation that staff should hire a marketing team and now a public relations team is kinda stupid.

Very much so.  At the same time, seeing more and more snark out of staff is also disheartening.  That is not what was envisioned when the discussion of 'increased player and staff communication' was around.

As far as the original thread, complete with snark title...some things -were- better in the past.  That's that.  Some things -are- better now.  That's that.  Some things were just tradeoffs.  This is literally the same thing that happens in any other game that runs for so long.  I quit WoW because the game changed.  I quit Everquest because the game changed.  I did not quit Armageddon because the game changed.  While somethings are better and some things are worse, the game is not broken unless you very specifically narrow down your parameters, which is essentially the same as you convincing yourself that it's been made horrible rather than allowing yourself to continue to enjoy the experience.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 06:46:55 AM
It's very easy for either players or staff to be snarky in the face of inaccurate accusations or self-fulfilling prophecies. At the same time, it's not an excuse, and I think staff communication has improved markedly toward players who are polite to staff, even in disagreement. I would encourage everyone to not rush to judgment over incomplete statistics or one-sided narratives, and work to consider facts over feelings. I think that will help players find fun in the game in the long run as well.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Yam on October 15, 2015, 07:14:02 AM
Have no fear, everyone. I'm coming back.

Yam 2015 - Make Armageddon great again!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Majikal on October 15, 2015, 07:36:37 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 05:01:21 AM
While somethings are better and some things are worse, the game is not broken unless you very specifically narrow down your parameters, which is essentially the same as you convincing yourself that it's been made horrible rather than allowing yourself to continue to enjoy the experience.

I really liked this point.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 15, 2015, 07:38:51 AM
Quote from: Majikal on October 15, 2015, 07:36:37 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 05:01:21 AM
While somethings are better and some things are worse, the game is not broken unless you very specifically narrow down your parameters, which is essentially the same as you convincing yourself that it's been made horrible rather than allowing yourself to continue to enjoy the experience.

I really liked this point.

Me too, +1.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Renenutet on October 15, 2015, 08:36:43 AM
Quote from: Yam on October 15, 2015, 07:14:02 AM
Have no fear, everyone. I'm coming back.

Yam 2015 - Make Armageddon great again!

Bring your friends.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Molten Heart on October 15, 2015, 09:41:33 AM
Quote from: Yam on October 15, 2015, 07:14:02 AM
Have no fear, everyone. I'm coming back.

Yam 2015 - Make Armageddon great again!

Are you running for president staff? You've got my vote.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 10:16:42 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 06:46:55 AM
It's very easy for either players or staff to be snarky in the face of inaccurate accusations or self-fulfilling prophecies. At the same time, it's not an excuse, and I think staff communication has improved markedly toward players who are polite to staff, even in disagreement.

I would recommend that staff take the higher road even when players do not. I think it would improve the atmosphere even more markedly if staff were always professional with players even when those players themselves are not polite.

If I have to explain why that's a good idea, then the problem can't be solved. I think it's pretty obvious.

Granted I've never been mean to a staffer and have never given them any reason to be snarky or unprofessional towards me. (The one time one did jump the gun and go off they immediately censored themselves and apologized.) But even if I was, I would hope the staffer would look at it from the perspective of, "This guy is mad about a video game. I'm going to keep it high and tight because it's my job to set the example even in the face of a bad example of player behavior.".

That or we can just be snarky when a player calls us a doodoo head or tells fibs about us on the webbernetz for max lulz and condescension.

I'm just a huge fan of leading by example.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ender on October 15, 2015, 10:29:01 AM
It's tough to look at statistics that don't tell a great story for this year, but I think the learning in this visualization are the same as the other I posted.  What drives interest in the game are in character events that are public enough that they can be advertised and voting.

Tuluk closing, the 2013 HRPT all had OOC efforts to get players interested in those events.  Plots that are less obscure and more advertised I think are the number one way to drum up interest in the game for those players you get from those voting drives.  They don't need to be complicated, intricate or world changing, they just need to be public enough that a new player could easily find out about it on the gdb or elsewhere and jump into the game knowing enough to get involved.

(http://i.imgur.com/BxUfwbJ.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/AuN2QMs.jpg)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 10:33:39 AM
I generally do agree that more public RPT's would help player numbers. They usually DO help player numbers.

But, I also find that in order for it to be big enough to be posted about on the GDB by staff...it has to be big enough that "The Known" in some regard would come into play.

Because we are in a world where, "If you aren't in a position to know about it OOC'ly, you can only learn about it IC'ly.", it gets a little wonky when staff starts announcing, "Stuff happening in this one small region."....because then everyone knows even if they shouldn't that things are happening somewhere else.

I also think that our playerbase is mature enough to handle it responsibly at this point. Fifteen years ago I can see it causing a few issues. Now I think we have the sort of playerbase where even if half of them knew something was happening somewhere they wouldn't take any actions they shouldn't in regards to it.

tldr: +1 for more publically visible RPT's, even if they aren't on a grand scale. If anything it definitely is good advertising for "we are doing stuff and things ARE happening".

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 10:16:42 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 06:46:55 AM
It's very easy for either players or staff to be snarky in the face of inaccurate accusations or self-fulfilling prophecies. At the same time, it's not an excuse, and I think staff communication has improved markedly toward players who are polite to staff, even in disagreement.

I would recommend that staff take the higher road even when players do not. I think it would improve the atmosphere even more markedly if staff were always professional with players even when those players themselves are not polite.

If I have to explain why that's a good idea, then the problem can't be solved. I think it's pretty obvious.

Granted I've never been mean to a staffer and have never given them any reason to be snarky or unprofessional towards me. (The one time one did jump the gun and go off they immediately censored themselves and apologized.) But even if I was, I would hope the staffer would look at it from the perspective of, "This guy is mad about a video game. I'm going to keep it high and tight because it's my job to set the example even in the face of a bad example of player behavior.".

That or we can just be snarky when a player calls us a doodoo head or tells fibs about us on the webbernetz for max lulz and condescension.

I'm just a huge fan of leading by example.

Yes, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise - however, at the same time, we aren't doormats, and we don't have an obligation to be professional in the face of someone who is clearly trolling or is going to be a problem. Even so, I think we still remain polite even in those instances, insofar that it is still possible. But we have an obligation to be blunt and forthright in some instances, and that's what has to come out sometimes. That shouldn't be mistaken for rudeness though. It's generally more of an attempt to get a message out without beating around the bush.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eurynomos on October 15, 2015, 10:41:20 AM
Damnit, I ran out of red tape again.

I'm not intending to be dismissive -- I actually do care about player's opinions. I also tend to find that there is a 'flavor of the week' on the GDB, as far as discontent goes. As I said in the player divide thread, there's only as much of a divide between player and Staff as you'd like to believe there is, because I actually firmly believe there isn't. Communication lines are open, we're here to chat and to figure out real and perceived issues with you with 100% politeness, as long as that's the tone given to us.

As to player numbers, something to consider is we are playing within a dying art form. Everything changes, and the player base for ArmageddonMUD is certainly among the 'everything' category. I've had many friends that used to play step away, never to return, while others come back. The gaming industry itself is changing, has changed, and the MUD community is dwindling at best. There are always the curious, those that have heard about MUDs but never tried one. But I think we can all agree that the 'sneaking out to play at the library at lunch' vibes are all but extinct. Many of us grew up at a time where MUDs were the only thing out there, and graphical games were laughable at best.

I think the best thing for us to do, as Staff, is do our best in maintaining the player base we have. I would actually put the onus on getting new players on you, the players. Word of mouth, advertising to different community members, talking about it with your RL friends. If you don't love the game enough to do this, then...Sure, eventually, in five, ten, fifteen, twenty years, we will likely go the way of the dinosaurs. But I have faith in this community, and the strength of belief it has that this is the best game out there. So let's roll with those positive vibes, and moving forward, really strive to better our community stance.

The game might have 'been better' in some people's eyes, back in 2004, 2005, 2006, etc. But we can 'make' the game a better place if we try. Perceived issues should be idea'd, requests should be filed to Staff if there is perceived miscommunication. Let's make this right. We're constantly adding new content to the game, and we've taken more player input now than ever before on the shape of that direction. Let's work together!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ender on October 15, 2015, 10:48:14 AM
Quote from: Eurynomos on October 15, 2015, 10:41:20 AM
and the MUD community is dwindling at best.

My argument against this notion is that 2013 was the best year Armageddon has ever had on record for consistent active players.  We absolutely can get people interested and playing and grow our playerbase.

Yes, there is more competition from other types of games, but I'd argue the pool of people interested in roleplaying games is larger now than it ever was.  The problem we have is that there are many more options open to those interested in those kinds of games.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 10:48:18 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 10:16:42 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 06:46:55 AM
It's very easy for either players or staff to be snarky in the face of inaccurate accusations or self-fulfilling prophecies. At the same time, it's not an excuse, and I think staff communication has improved markedly toward players who are polite to staff, even in disagreement.

I would recommend that staff take the higher road even when players do not. I think it would improve the atmosphere even more markedly if staff were always professional with players even when those players themselves are not polite.

If I have to explain why that's a good idea, then the problem can't be solved. I think it's pretty obvious.

Granted I've never been mean to a staffer and have never given them any reason to be snarky or unprofessional towards me. (The one time one did jump the gun and go off they immediately censored themselves and apologized.) But even if I was, I would hope the staffer would look at it from the perspective of, "This guy is mad about a video game. I'm going to keep it high and tight because it's my job to set the example even in the face of a bad example of player behavior.".

That or we can just be snarky when a player calls us a doodoo head or tells fibs about us on the webbernetz for max lulz and condescension.

I'm just a huge fan of leading by example.

Yes, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise - however, at the same time, we aren't doormats, and we don't have an obligation to be professional in the face of someone who is clearly trolling or is going to be a problem. Even so, I think we still remain polite even in those instances, insofar that it is still possible. But we have an obligation to be blunt and forthright in some instances, and that's what has to come out sometimes. That shouldn't be mistaken for rudeness though. It's generally more of an attempt to get a message out without beating around the bush.

If at any time someone feels they have to be a doormat in order to be professional, they simply don't know how to be effectively professional.

Edited to Add: The smartest people I know in the world personally play this video game. I make no exaggerations there. The staffers who staff this game are at the top of that list. What I'm saying here is our staffing team is more than intelligent enough to know how to be effectively professional. If at any time they choose not to be...it isn't because they don't have a choice...it is because they are actively and intelligently making a decision to do that.

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 10:48:31 AM
Quote from: Ender on October 15, 2015, 10:29:01 AM

Thanks for putting that together. I think that graph shows that there is a clear yearly pattern of increases and decreases, and that we are currently in the timeframe where there is usually a decrease every year. I am sure the playerbase will come up naturally by itself in November if we do nothing else, but that isn't a reason to do nothing else, to be sure! That is a reason to start voting efforts in earnest and to encourage PC plots as well as staff-arranged events, to compound the effect that Novembers usually bring on the unique player count.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 15, 2015, 10:51:54 AM
So I went on a tangent yesterday...  the tinfoil hat was just me being annoyed is all.  Maybe I lost a bit of my professionalism in the way I do things and respond on here, but the matter to me is that people are making a bigger deal out of things  then is needed.  I got on around 10pm Server yesterday, 50+ people online.  I see the numbers from my end, not from a third-party graph.

It has come to my attention that there were comments about my long post made it somewhere.  I find it flattering that the comments have to do with my grammar and typos.  I wrote that long post first on this thread at the end of my shift at work and didn't even bother to proofread it.  Oh, and yes... 2007 was when I started playing Arm all together, 2009 is when I first came on staff.  Thank you for the nice comments, I'll try to keep my cool on here more often.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 15, 2015, 10:51:54 AM
So I went on a tangent yesterday...  the tinfoil hat was just me being annoyed is all.  Maybe I lost a bit of my professionalism in the way I do things and respond on here, but the matter to me is that people are making a bigger deal out of things  then is needed.  I got on around 10pm Server yesterday, 50+ people online.  I see the numbers from my end, not from a third-party graph.

It has come to my attention that there were comments about my long post made it somewhere.  I find it flattering that the comments have to do with my grammar and typos.  I wrote that long post first on this thread at the end of my shift at work and didn't even bother to proofread it.  Oh, and yes... 2007 was when I started playing Arm all together, 2009 is when I first came on staff.  Thank you for the nice comments, I'll try to keep my cool on here more often.

(You are one of the nicest staffers on the team and easily one of the most personable. You have nothing to explain.)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 15, 2015, 10:54:45 AM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Ath on October 15, 2015, 10:51:54 AM
So I went on a tangent yesterday...  the tinfoil hat was just me being annoyed is all.  Maybe I lost a bit of my professionalism in the way I do things and respond on here, but the matter to me is that people are making a bigger deal out of things  then is needed.  I got on around 10pm Server yesterday, 50+ people online.  I see the numbers from my end, not from a third-party graph.

It has come to my attention that there were comments about my long post made it somewhere.  I find it flattering that the comments have to do with my grammar and typos.  I wrote that long post first on this thread at the end of my shift at work and didn't even bother to proofread it.  Oh, and yes... 2007 was when I started playing Arm all together, 2009 is when I first came on staff.  Thank you for the nice comments, I'll try to keep my cool on here more often.

(You are one of the nicest staffers on the team and easily one of the most personable. You have nothing to explain.)

10 years customer service experience, I treat people like I would treat my customers... I'm just very passionate about Armageddon and well, sometimes that comes through into text.  Thank you though, that is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 10:59:20 AM
Desertman: We have a pretty confident, smart, professional (for a hobby, at least) team. So let me clarify. We do our best to respond professionally to people, and I think we are largely successful at that. A part of that involves honesty, sometimes blunt honesty. When people say that they are stifled by staff, or not allowed to do something in the game, or not allowed to come back to the game, that's not necessarily a case of us being unprofessional - that's a case of us not agreeing to something. I think when players are denied for something by staff, or get into a disagreement with them, and we are bluntly honest about something, this gets misconstrued as unprofessional when the intent was the opposite: to be as honest with the player as possible. We are people too after all, and we hate getting the run-around as much as we would hate to give it. It is better to convey a clear message than it is to hold back out of fear.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 11:00:40 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 10:59:20 AM
Desertman: We have a pretty confident, smart, professional (for a hobby, at least) team. So let me clarify. We do our best to respond professionally to people, and I think we are largely successful at that. A part of that involves honesty, sometimes blunt honesty. When people say that they are stifled by staff, or not allowed to do something in the game, or not allowed to come back to the game, that's not necessarily a case of us being unprofessional - that's a case of us not agreeing to something. I think when players are denied for something by staff, or get into a disagreement with them, and we are bluntly honest about something, this gets misconstrued as unprofessional when the intent was the opposite: to be as honest with the player as possible. We are people too after all, and we hate getting the run-around as much as we would hate to give it. It is better to convey a clear message than it is to hold back out of fear.

(Sorry I covered this with an edit on my original post while you were posting this apparently. Check the timestamp on the edit above.)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 15, 2015, 11:01:31 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 15, 2015, 10:34:44 AM
Yes, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise - however, at the same time, we aren't doormats, and we don't have an obligation to be professional in the face of someone who is clearly trolling or is going to be a problem. Even so, I think we still remain polite even in those instances, insofar that it is still possible. But we have an obligation to be blunt and forthright in some instances, and that's what has to come out sometimes. That shouldn't be mistaken for rudeness though. It's generally more of an attempt to get a message out without beating around the bush.

To elaborate on Nergal's point:

We do have rules, our own guidelines, and our own accountability to each other as staff members.  The game has evolved as have our policies as a staffing team, in general, to be more towards things that make pretty good sense.  You can put in a complaint about a staffer and be sure that no one but the Producer team will be able to resolve it.  You won't have staff splashing your account info and request history on the boards anymore in response to player provocation, no matter how 'deserved'.  We routinely check our replies to players on disciplinary/sensitive/negative issues with each other in order to revise them to be better, more neutral, or just more targeted to the specific concern.

Even with all of that, yes, you can piss us off individually (or as a group) such that you might have a staffer say something that isn't the most professional thing.  The times that has happened (that I recall) are at the end of a series of repeated trolling/baiting/flaming of staff, and honestly, we don't get paid enough to send customer satisfaction surveys and be public relations gods in the face of that kind of thing.




As for RPTs, I am (or at least, I think I am) a staunch advocate for providing more information about things being active, even if it is vague.  We want to surprise players with the content of a plot.  We do not want to surprise players with the timing of a plot, or have it happen with them completely unawares that "cool stuff" was going on in the background.  We want to involve as many players as possible, and have the plots we sponsor and directly pen end up affecting other players and their own plots, so that there can be some downtime between our plots.  I think we are open to finding better ways to do that.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 15, 2015, 11:05:10 AM
Considering the nutjob you had to deal with recently (not me, the other nutjob!) I don't blame you at all when you need to bring the hammer down on someone.

It also showed how patient some of you can be before the hammer comes striking down, so no, again, it's not all terrible on Staff side.

I don't like when Staff takes it personally because it (at least my rants) rarely has anything to do with the person who Staffs but with the system under which they are required to operate - but again, when explained to me -very- slowly and with crayola-made charts, I tend to "get" it in the end.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: Nyr on October 15, 2015, 11:01:31 AM
Even with all of that, yes, you can piss us off individually (or as a group) such that you might have a staffer say something that isn't the most professional thing.  The times that has happened (that I recall) are at the end of a series of repeated trolling/baiting/flaming of staff, and honestly, we don't get paid enough to send customer satisfaction surveys and be public relations gods in the face of that kind of thing.


Your opinion is that at times it is justified to be unprofessional in your position.

My opinion is that is it is never justified and that resorting to it, no matter what, is harmful to this community as a whole.

In that I will agree to disagree because really I can't do anything else.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 15, 2015, 11:43:31 AM
I'm not sure you are understanding my opinion on this, but yes, let's agree to disagree, and instead discuss other things of substance that have been brought up in this thread.

Do you know of any calendar/announcement/etc widget/technology that would better deliver news of events and RPTs?  Do you think the GDB (or the new one, whenever we get the testing done) is a good method of delivering that sort of thing at all?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 11:45:33 AM
Quote from: Nyr on October 15, 2015, 11:43:31 AM
I'm not sure you are understanding my opinion on this, but yes, let's agree to disagree, and instead discuss other things of substance that have been brought up in this thread.

Do you know of any calendar/announcement/etc widget/technology that would better deliver news of events and RPTs?  Do you think the GDB (or the new one, whenever we get the testing done) is a good method of delivering that sort of thing at all?

Your opinion seems pretty clear to me, but yes, agree to disagree and on to other things.

Do we have the ability to easily edit our descriptions of Armageddon on TMS/TMC in order to include announcements for "upcoming events" for Armageddon there?

I don't see that any other MUDs are doing that. If we started actually announcing our upcoming events on the voting sites (if possible) that could make us stand out. If nothing else it tells every person who goes there to vote/view MUDs that "This MUD has things happening where as other MUDs might not.".
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Eurynomos on October 15, 2015, 12:14:22 PM
Quote from: Ender on October 15, 2015, 10:48:14 AM
Quote from: Eurynomos on October 15, 2015, 10:41:20 AM
and the MUD community is dwindling at best.

My argument against this notion is that 2013 was the best year Armageddon has ever had on record for consistent active players.  We absolutely can get people interested and playing and grow our playerbase.

Yes, there is more competition from other types of games, but I'd argue the pool of people interested in roleplaying games is larger now than it ever was.  The problem we have is that there are many more options open to those interested in those kinds of games.

I would counter argue that this was mostly due to increased visibility to a dwindling population. We can increase this population by drawing new people into the community that may have not known about MUDs before, but are avid Roleplayers or gamers in general. From a retail standpoint, we need to get new customers in the door. We also have a specific clientele. People who are intelligent, imaginative, capable of reading and following documentation, and willing to do so before entering the game.

I think it might behoove us (as Staff and a community) to streamline the process for new players to "get hooked". Call it the intro mission to Skyrim. Perhaps the newbie school should be more interactive? Or we should make it a priority to animate NPCs in the newbie school? It's one of the first chances for interaction with people who are trying our MUD for the first time. Just spitballing here.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 12:26:06 PM
While a "Newbie School" in the game makes the hardened "I walked up hill in the snow both ways every day." veteran in me cringe, I think the idea has some merit.

We have an impressive number of people who actually view the game every month in my opinion. We are a MUD and we get a couple hundred folks to come and actually create a new account every month? That impresses me anyways.

If we could start retaining a much larger portion of those players through some means, even a newbie school if need be, I think that would be a game changer (literally).
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 12:32:51 PM
I also hate to say it but a "Random Character Generator" might not be a horrible idea. Well, it could be an extremely horrible idea, but I'm just throwing it out.

How many people do we get who make an account then see that our character creation process is admittedly a huge lengthy process and they walk away right there?

A ton.

I have personally got people to play the game but ONLY after telling them, "Hey look man, I'll write your first PC for you ok? Then you can just get in and start playing.".

We have had a staffer in the past who only started playing because I did this for them.

We have a few veterans who still play to this day because I did this for them.

Otherwise they looked at the game and said, "I'm not writing all of that shit."....basically.

Basically it would be a program that let them pick their Name, Race, Guild, Subguild, Age, and Stat Priority and then their description and background would be generated for them. (It would admittedly be a combination of very generic details every time, but it gets them into the game and playing.)

They get to do the fun stuff...picking all of the major factors, then the "boring" or "hard" stuff is done for them so they can get in and get a taste of Arm.

Even if the random generator only provided 8 - 10 possibilities for each race and guild combination it would still be something as opposed to nothing.

Would we eventually all "learn" what those combinations were and then "know" this was a fresh-faced nub? Yes. But only the true veterans who stuck around long enough would ever figure that out...and our veterans are great with newbies. I don't think it would hurt anything.  

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Mordiggian on October 15, 2015, 12:44:59 PM
I think that could help in some cases. Once or twice a month, we get new apps with sdescs like "i just want 2 play". In situations where the newbie has attempted to write a PC (maybe not so successfully) we'll either work with them to fix it, or sometimes just fix it ourselves (sometimes rewriting an entire desc) and approve it.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Narf on October 15, 2015, 01:04:14 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 12:32:51 PM

I have personally got people to play the game but ONLY after telling them, "Hey look man, I'll write your first PC for you ok? Then you can just get in and start playing.".



Can verify this anecdote with an identical one of my own.

What's more, after the character in question died they specifically cited "not wanting to spend all that time making a new character" as the reason they never came back.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Alesan on October 15, 2015, 01:05:59 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 12:32:51 PM
I also hate to say it but a "Random Character Generator" might not be a horrible idea. Well, it could be an extremely horrible idea, but I'm just throwing it out.

How many people do we get who make an account then see that our character creation process is admittedly a huge lengthy process and they walk away right there?

A ton.

I have personally got people to play the game but ONLY after telling them, "Hey look man, I'll write your first PC for you ok? Then you can just get in and start playing.".

We have had a staffer in the past who only started playing because I did this for them.

We have a few veterans who still play to this day because I did this for them.

Otherwise they looked at the game and said, "I'm not writing all of that shit."....basically.

Basically it would be a program that let them pick their Name, Race, Guild, Subguild, Age, and Stat Priority and then their description and background would be generated for them. (It would admittedly be a combination of very generic details every time, but it gets them into the game and playing.)

They get to do the fun stuff...picking all of the major factors, then the "boring" or "hard" stuff is done for them so they can get in and get a taste of Arm.

Even if the random generator only provided 8 - 10 possibilities for each race and guild combination it would still be something as opposed to nothing.

Would we eventually all "learn" what those combinations were and then "know" this was a fresh-faced nub? Yes. But only the true veterans who stuck around long enough would ever figure that out...and our veterans are great with newbies. I don't think it would hurt anything.  



I can attest that I'm very reluctant to put a lot of work into a character, especially a character background, on a game I'm not hooked on yet. Nevermind a game I know very little about, am not immersed into, and feels like I'm stepping into pitch dark and expected to know my way around. It's actually stressful. The examples on the website help, but they can only go so far. Having a foot in the door like Desertman describes would go a lot further, even if it does make you veterans groan and shake your canes a little. I don't even think a full "newbie school" would be necessary. Though I can't say it wouldn't help.

Quote from: Narf on October 15, 2015, 01:04:14 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 12:32:51 PM

I have personally got people to play the game but ONLY after telling them, "Hey look man, I'll write your first PC for you ok? Then you can just get in and start playing.".



Can verify this anecdote with an identical one of my own.

What's more, after the character in question died they specifically cited "not wanting to spend all that time making a new character" as the reason they never came back.

This was almost me. I still have pangs of this every time a character dies. I don't understand how some of you have made hundreds of characters. It's mind boggling to me.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 15, 2015, 01:56:19 PM
How about we empower the Helpers to help new players create a character?  One of the things I liked about SoI when I first started was the ability to talk to a "Mentor" and they would help approve your first character.  Any others after that were approved by staff, but the first character was guided along.

I'm actually not sure if our Helpers are allowed to do that, but it might be something to look into.  I do agree, that first character being created by someone is important, but at the same point it is a great way to deter people we don't want ever even getting into the game.  Sadly a troll CAN do some damage to immersion and game-play if they get in game.  The character generation is a good deterrent for trolls.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 01:58:39 PM
QuoteThis was almost me. I still have pangs of this every time a character dies. I don't understand how some of you have made hundreds of characters. It's mind boggling to me.

Character number 108, but really that's 115 or so since I came before accounts.  I have a random character generator in my HEAD at this point, man.


As far as one of the things that I think was better before, with no empirical evidence or consideration of anything in particular:  At one point, we used to have 1-2 'main staffers' for each clan, with a small 'support staff' of junior imms under them.  Sometimes, people ran multiple clans, but it wasn't that often.  Our current system, southern teams and so on...it consolidates the knowledge of what's going on, I think?  This is well and good...but was far more preferable when there were more clans/more active clans in that area.  With the closing of Tuluk, and with the closing of several military wings of clans...I'd like to see a system like this experimented with, for one reason and one reason only.  I think that under said system, staff were more 'gung-ho' about helping their clan.  I think staffers in opposition, where their players were working against each other, came up with plans together for intrigue and conflict.  I feel like they became cheerleaders for their own clan, and wanted projects to help out their clan...whereas under this system, I think petty conflicts are far more draining to a team.  There used to be little staff animations every few weeks, keeping you apprised of things and opportunities, many of them just made out up out nowhere and left as a 'pursue it if you like', essentially translating to a staffer telling you 'I thought this might be a good idea and I'm willing to do it if you are.'

We had a big movement away from staff-run plots, in favor of player-run plots because people thought that would give them the reins.  However, in my experience, those reins are still only given over as long as the horse is wearing very specific blinders in a set, track-like structure...which just leaves a giant void where those consistent staff-run plots used to be.

That is one of my underlying 'I miss this' parts of the game.  To tie this in...I don't really remember a time in the game when you could just -decide- what you wanted to happen, out of the blue, just because, which is what Malken seemed to assert.  I really don't.  It just didn't happen.  But if you came up with a -cool- idea that a staffer thought contributed to the game and they wanted to run...or if a staffer thought up a -cool- idea for their clan, that the player wanted to play...it happened.  Which I'm sure is still the case.  But I find clans...very lacking, at this point.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 15, 2015, 02:11:31 PM
Your description of "the good ol' staffing days" sounds pretty much like what we have now, Armaddict. I've never gotten the impression that staff aren't "Gung-ho" about helping any particular clan I've been in. It's true that you don't see staff treating their clans as personal fiefdoms, which in my opinion is a good thing. There is such a thing as too much staff attention and documentation - we saw it in the Gypsies, and I personally believe this is what made Tuluk so doc-heavy and cumbersome to play in and, ultimately, unworkable.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 02:25:32 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 15, 2015, 02:11:31 PM
Your description of "the good ol' staffing days" sounds pretty much like what we have now, Armaddict. I've never gotten the impression that staff aren't "Gung-ho" about helping any particular clan I've been in. It's true that you don't see staff treating their clans as personal fiefdoms, which in my opinion is a good thing. There is such a thing as too much staff attention and documentation - we saw it in the Gypsies, and I personally believe this is what made Tuluk so doc-heavy and cumbersome to play in and, ultimately, unworkable.

I didn't mean for it to come across as a 'good old days' sort of post.  I really just meant that it seems like teams might be juggling between multiple clans, which can leave 'small scale' plots petering out, rather than being fostered...because one in one clan, and not in with the competitive clan, might have an interest in helping that conflict to grow.

I didn't mean to insinuate that our guys were not gung-ho because they weren't in teams...just that their interests had to be more spread out and on an even keel to prevent favoritism to one clan or another.  Where that favoritism, to a clan, and not a player, but with a trusted person who is in coordination with other staffers...is sometimes what enables those little plots to grow well.  Kind of incentive based thinking, I guess, where they of course want their clan, and people in their clan, to do well...and then rotate around what clans are whose?

It wasn't viable when there tons of clans, which is why the change happened.  But...we've closed down a bunch of clans.  Having each of them competitive with each other in very visible ways to members of that clan is a good thing, I think.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 15, 2015, 02:39:33 PM
I get what you mean.  It's one thing to know X person is in charge of Y, and them alone...and that influences the direction of that Y Clan.

If it helps at all, there is usually one ST assigned to a clan as the person to respond to issues there.  Even when we have the meta-clan groups headed by administrators, you still have one specific ST that will be the go-to-animator and header-upper of the clan.

I tend to think it is the same, or if not the same, a lot better...because clans could get abandoned before.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 15, 2015, 02:50:31 PM
I personally also find it nice because animations come from one person so the animations don't change and ruin immersion.  I know it can be rough to RP an NPC the same way as someone else and it is hard to see how someone RPed someone before.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Bast on October 15, 2015, 02:58:13 PM
I just hate staff changes. I am always worried new staff means everything I have been trying to do will suddenly get shut down because the new staffer has a different view or take on my clan. I wish we had better docs like down the board for everything to keep everyone more on the same page. Maybe I am spoiled from table top games but in most of them they have very clear in depth documentation about popular areas and the organizations in them. You can buy entire book devoted to some the major cities in D&D, pathfinger and other games. I feel too much in Arm is left to personal feelings or ideas.

As for the days or yore I do miss some things but I like a lot of  the changes too. Its much more fair over all. You don't see one clan getting massively cool stuff and items any more which is a really good thing. Karma has guidelines which awesome.  I would like to see magick plots come back. I feel its a bit lame that if you earn the karma to play some of the cooler classes in the game you get doomed to a life of being left out of major plots and events and isolated from the rest of the player base with nothing to do unless you get lucky with Staff or have a good Oash Noble in the game. Arm has a massively cool magic system it feels wasted lately. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving  parts of the old game or that anything that happened 6 years ago is suddenly invalid because things were different then.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jihelu on October 15, 2015, 02:59:08 PM
Quote from: Bast on October 15, 2015, 02:58:13 PM
I just hate staff changes. I am always worried new staff means everything I have been trying to do will suddenly get shut down because the new staffer has a different view or take on my clan. I wish we had better docs like down the board for everything to keep everyone more on the same page. Maybe I am spoiled from table top games but in most of them they have very clear in depth documentation about popular areas and the organizations in them. You can buy entire book devoted to some the major cities in D&D, pathfinger and other games. I feel too much in Arm is left to personal feelings or ideas.

As for the days or yore I do miss some things but I like a lot of  the changes too. Its much more fair over all. You don't see one clan getting massively cool stuff and items any more which is a really good thing. Karma has guidelines which awesome.  I would like to see magick plots come back. I feel its a bit lame that if you earn the karma to play some of the cooler classes in the game you get doomed to a life of being left out of major plots and events and isolated from the rest of the player base with nothing to do unless you get lucky with Staff or have a good Oash Noble in the game. Arm has a massively cool magic system it feels wasted lately. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving  parts of the old game or that anything that happened 6 years ago is suddenly invalid because things were different then.
I've got the solution.
We bring back Sorcerers.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: AdamBlue on October 15, 2015, 03:02:16 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 15, 2015, 02:59:08 PM
Quote from: Bast on October 15, 2015, 02:58:13 PM
I just hate staff changes. I am always worried new staff means everything I have been trying to do will suddenly get shut down because the new staffer has a different view or take on my clan. I wish we had better docs like down the board for everything to keep everyone more on the same page. Maybe I am spoiled from table top games but in most of them they have very clear in depth documentation about popular areas and the organizations in them. You can buy entire book devoted to some the major cities in D&D, pathfinger and other games. I feel too much in Arm is left to personal feelings or ideas.

As for the days or yore I do miss some things but I like a lot of  the changes too. Its much more fair over all. You don't see one clan getting massively cool stuff and items any more which is a really good thing. Karma has guidelines which awesome.  I would like to see magick plots come back. I feel its a bit lame that if you earn the karma to play some of the cooler classes in the game you get doomed to a life of being left out of major plots and events and isolated from the rest of the player base with nothing to do unless you get lucky with Staff or have a good Oash Noble in the game. Arm has a massively cool magic system it feels wasted lately. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving  parts of the old game or that anything that happened 6 years ago is suddenly invalid because things were different then.
I've got the solution.
We bring back Sorcerers.


Well, a small-scale apocalypse would certainly make things more interesting.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jihelu on October 15, 2015, 03:02:51 PM
Just like old times.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Mordiggian on October 15, 2015, 03:51:15 PM
Adhira/Nessalin/Seidhr have been working on some changes to the sorc subguilds to give them some more bite. If you've played one, and are concerned about their potency, fret not.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Ath on October 15, 2015, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: Mordiggian on October 15, 2015, 03:51:15 PM
Adhira/Nessalin/Seidhr have been working on some changes to the sorc subguilds to give them some more bite. If you've played one, and are concerned about their potency, fret not.

Send in feedback!  Nothing wrong with feedback on it.

Also, as for small scale, I say we blow up Tuluk...  again.  Tuluki refugees everywhere!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 15, 2015, 03:59:12 PM
Quote from: Mordiggian on October 15, 2015, 03:51:15 PM
Adhira/Nessalin/Seidhr have been working on some changes to the sorc subguilds to give them some more bite. If you've played one, and are concerned about their potency, fret not.

Send in feedback!  Nothing wrong with feedback on it.

Also, as for small scale, I say we blow up Tuluk...  again. PIECES OF Tuluki refugees everywhere!

*Evil Cackle*

Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Mordiggian on October 15, 2015, 04:12:26 PM
It's also come to my attention that some people somewhere are mad at me for something.

If you play in an area I staff and you feel like you have an issue I mishandled, or you're unhappy with something I've done, but you just keep quiet and let that resentment build up, I can't do anything for you. I can't speak for other staffers, but I'm working on a lot of projects in a lot of different parts of the gameworld, and I don't want any of the players in my groups to feel like they're not being heard or noticed.

I promise you I'm a nice dude and if you hit me up with a request when you have issues or concerns (or just to report, or discuss support for things) I will try to reach a mutually agreeable position.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: In Dreams on October 15, 2015, 04:19:34 PM
Quote from: Mordiggian on October 15, 2015, 04:12:26 PM
It's also come to my attention that some people somewhere are mad at me for something.

If you play in an area I staff and you feel like you have an issue I mishandled, or you're unhappy with something I've done, but you just keep quiet and let that resentment build up, I can't do anything for you. I can't speak for other staffers, but I'm working on a lot of projects in a lot of different parts of the gameworld, and I don't want any of the players in my groups to feel like they're not being heard or noticed.

I promise you I'm a nice dude and if you hit me up with a request when you have issues or concerns (or just to report, or discuss support for things) I will try to reach a mutually agreeable position.

Hearsay I got before I ever arrived here painted Armageddon's staff as looming ominous overlords not unlike Tektolnes where if you have a disagreement with them, you're probably better off just running away and being quiet and hoping they don't notice you.

I know this can't be entirely true because everyone always talks in extremes, especially the most vocal sorts. But, I will admit that I myself have kind of habitually avoided staff and staffing interactions myself, just because I don't want my experience affected by anything outside of my roleplay.

I haven't had any bad experiences myself at all, of course! And maybe that says something? I don't know, but that could be why people are scared to bring that sort of thing up.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 04:24:41 PM
I watch some people because I think some people circle jerk their own exaggerated butt hurt to new heights until the sense of injustice rallies them to anger instead of tears over relatively small events. It makes me laugh. Not professional, not staff. Woo woo!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Malken on October 15, 2015, 04:30:24 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 04:24:41 PM
I watch some people because I think some people circle jerk their own exaggerated butt hurt to new heights until the sense of injustice rallies them to anger instead of tears over relatively small events. It makes me laugh. Not professional, not staff. Woo woo!

Yeah but the opposite of circle jerking is blind cheerleading and it's annoying both ways.

I'm glad that my thread is bringing some positive thoughts, though :)

I logged in for 2 seconds earlier today.

THEN I'M REMINDED THAT THE AGING SYSTEM IS STILL PURE BULLSHIT PIECE OF... Just kidding ^_^
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 04:49:28 PM
If you want to see Desertman eat some of his words, here is your chance people!!!

Just dropping in to say that Nyr shot me some info privately that made me feel a lot better about the returning players issue I was seeing.

Since I complained about it publically I thought it was only fair to say publically that we actually do get back a fair number of people at times that once moved on to "hate us land".

Also, he explained to me that the door is absolutely open to pretty much everyone but two individuals who got banned because of the severity of their heinous actions. (I honestly expected that category to hold more than two people.)

I will be the first to say I haven't always got along with Mister Nyr and we may never be best buddies, but I will also be the first to admit when I'm wrong.

The things he explained to me make me really do feel like the door is truly open to anyone who just wants to throw out a request to come back.

So if you are out there in "angry jaded land" and are thinking you might want to come back...shoot a request to staff and just say you want to come back...you don't have to grovel or beg. Just say you want to come back and you don't want to relive your past mistakes or have them lorded over you. If you do come back and don't make your same past mistakes they will let your old account notes not ride your ass.

#Desertmanstampofapproval
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Mordiggian on October 15, 2015, 04:51:26 PM
My approach to interacting with any player is a clean-slate based on my experience with them. Players who might be coming off a PC in another clan where they had friction with their staff for any number of reasons might play in one of my clans next and I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: ibusoe on October 15, 2015, 05:00:22 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 04:49:28 PM
If you want to see Desertman eat some of his words, here is your chance people!!!

Just dropping in to say that Nyr shot me some info privately that made me feel a lot better about the returning players issue I was seeing.

Since I complained about it publically I thought it was only fair to say publically that we actually do get back a fair number of people at times that once moved on to "hate us land".

Also, he explained to me that the door is absolutely open to pretty much everyone but two individuals who got banned because of the severity of their heinous actions. (I honestly expected that category to hold more than two people.)

I will be the first to say I haven't always got along with Mister Nyr and we may never be best buddies, but I will also be the first to admit when I'm wrong.

The things he explained to me make me really do feel like the door is truly open to anyone who just wants to throw out a request to come back.

So if you are out there in "angry jaded land" and are thinking you might want to come back...shoot a request to staff and just say you want to come back...you don't have to grovel or beg. Just say you want to come back and you don't want to relive your past mistakes or have them lorded over you. If you do come back and don't make your same past mistakes they will let your old account notes not ride your ass.

#Desertmanstampofapproval


Yeah, I don't think anyone currently playing hates the staff.  Certainly there must be someone, but they aren't visible to me.  It's nice to see the staff overcompensating, especially, Ath, Mordiggian and Nyr, but we don't hate you.  Our various gripes relate mostly to minor issues that you're actively working with us on.  Showing us measurable progress, transparency, willingness to compromise and general amnesty has gone a long way to mollify people's angst.  
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Jihelu on October 15, 2015, 05:01:34 PM
I was joking about Sorcerers btw!
I personally think they were okay/the nerf thing was cool.
The looming idea of "I want every spell in the game" can seem appealing though but thats kinda dumb.


When I interact with staff I feel scared but safe at the same time. They are immortals after all...Irl right? Nyr isn't going to die right???!?!?!
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Nyr on October 15, 2015, 05:02:27 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 04:49:28 PM
Also, he explained to me that the door is absolutely open to pretty much everyone but two individuals who got banned because of the severity of their heinous actions. (I honestly expected that category to hold more than two people.)

There might have been some confusion there on specifics.  There were two people that we said "no" to at the time of the last announced ban amnesty thing.  

There are three people that we would say no to at this point in time.

Quote from: Nyr on October 14, 2015, 12:52:49 PM
There are very few people we'd say "no" to, by the way.  Those exceptions:


  • We banned you in the past few weeks/months.  Whatever you did, you just did it.  You probably haven't changed, and our opinion of whatever you did hasn't changed, nor has enough time passed for us to feel okay giving you another chance.  Sorry.
  • You were banned for stalking/harassing other players or staff.  Uncool.

That's it.  Looking at the above and double checking that with Adhira, that's 3 players.  So the offer's there, still open, whether it is believed to be genuine or not.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 05:03:18 PM
Quote from: Nyr on October 15, 2015, 05:02:27 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 04:49:28 PM
Also, he explained to me that the door is absolutely open to pretty much everyone but two individuals who got banned because of the severity of their heinous actions. (I honestly expected that category to hold more than two people.)

There might have been some confusion there on specifics.  There were two people that we said "no" to at the time of the last announced ban amnesty thing.  

There are three people that we would say no to at this point in time.

Quote from: Nyr on October 14, 2015, 12:52:49 PM
There are very few people we'd say "no" to, by the way.  Those exceptions:


  • We banned you in the past few weeks/months.  Whatever you did, you just did it.  You probably haven't changed, and our opinion of whatever you did hasn't changed, nor has enough time passed for us to feel okay giving you another chance.  Sorry.
  • You were banned for stalking/harassing other players or staff.  Uncool.

That's it.  Looking at the above and double checking that with Adhira, that's 3 players.  So the offer's there, still open, whether it is believed to be genuine or not.

Fair enough. I still expected it to be much more than two or three.  :)
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 15, 2015, 05:06:31 PM
(This thread had like 15 posts since I started writing mine, so I wanted to edit it to say its in response to Armaddict's post that eluded to PC driven plots being difficult to get approved, or have to be in a set, track-like structure)

I'd like to share my experiences as a returning player over the last year and a half or so.  This post will contain a few smidgens of IC information, but I think I'm walking on the right side the line here...  Hopefully...  *ducks*  

My reason for sharing this is pretty simple, the perception that player driven plots have to be "in a set, track-like structure" is not at all what I've experienced.  Universally, every time I've really pursued a plot it's been approved to proceed.  The outcome of that plot is not certain, and, sometimes goes horribly, horribly wrong...but the plot happens.   I suppose it's possible that my plots all somehow fit within the "set, track-like structure" that staff use as a template for approving them, but I somehow doubt that.  I've never met any staff member in real life, nor do I speak with any of them outside the request tool, so I really have no reason to believe they're giving me some kind of special treatment...of course that'd be impossible for me to know as I don't have anyone else's experiences to benchmark against.

So with that said, maybe my experiences below are a good case study?  I don't know.

Background:

I returned to Armageddon about a year ago, after 3-4 years away.  I had an itch to roleplay again, and decided to jump back into my old (literally, at this point) character.  My character had no friends and was unclanned.   Anyway, I joined a clan to try and get into the thick of plot lines.  Sadly, I felt like the plot lines were kind of thin at the time, so it didn't take long before I started dreaming up things to do.  Below is a chronological account of all the requests where I was asking the staff to approve a plot or role.  These all fall into around the same 5-6 month time period.

First staff request-  I had a scheme of trying to kidnap Tulukis who left the safety of their city through magickal means, to be thrown into the arena for humiliation/sport/entertainment in Allanak.  
Verdict:  Approved.  My character chose not to do this for IC reasons, unrelated to staff.


Second request - A special application to play a character that [Mordiggian strikes again].  I'm not saying more than that, because I've yet to actually play the app yet!
Verdict:  Approved.  Will require some minor coded tweaks to my character to function.


Third request - Requested a plot line to gain powerful, non-standard magickal abilities on top of a class that already has plenty of them.  I won't go into detail on this one, because it's ICly sensitive in nature.  
Verdict:  Shockingly....approved, but I was told up front it wouldn't be an overnight thing.  There were some staff-assisted animations of otherworldly entities to begin this plot line.  The pursuit of this plot went for a quite a while, and I never reached it's conclusion due to character death or storage.


Fourth request (still the same character) - Because request #3 was taking a while, I asked for an intermediary step towards my character's pursuit of otherworldly powers.
Verdict: Approved.  Plotline completed after a staff supported "quest" that involved my PC, and other PC's i dragged into it.  I did obtain the thing I was looking for... but be careful what you wish for kids...  


Fifth request- I planned an RPT for the clan to visit a remote location, and wanted staff support for it.
Verdict:  Approved.  Staff supported the RPT, spooky things happened there.  Those spooky things are still happening there today as far as I know.  The zone has been altered, perhaps permanently...we'll see?


Sixth request - A project in Allanak, that would create a new building, and a new type of coded service provided by one of the noble houses.
Verdict:  Approved, but hinted at a warning that this could have some unexpected consequences.  I was in the process of pursuing this, but it got cut short due to character death or storage.

Interestingly enough, when I originally submitted this request I cancelled it a few hours later, because I thought there was no way  this would actually happen.  Staff responded to the cancelled request, and said:

"Normally I wouldn't reply to a cancelled request but I actually thought this one was interesting when it popped up in the queue. I can't say whether or not we'd definitely do it, without a bunch of discussion staff-side, but on first glance I thought it was worth looking at. If you want to resubmit it, I'd encourage you to do so. Nothing wrong with having the discussion :)"

I resubmitted based on this advice and it was approved.  I mean, shit, I wasn't even able to CANCEL an idea without staff giving me a nudge telling me to go for it.

Other requests  There have been numerous other requests since this one, but they're for an existing PC, so I'm not willing to post about them because that would definitely be crossing the line into bad country.  



Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 05:17:59 PM
^^^^^

That's.....awesome....
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Mordiggian on October 15, 2015, 05:35:46 PM
Removed a reference to a future PC from your post, Wizturbo. Don't want folks to know who you're playing if that PC materializes in-game.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Rokal on October 15, 2015, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 15, 2015, 05:17:59 PM
^^^^^

That's.....awesome....
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 06:06:01 PM
QuoteI wanted to edit it to say its in response to Armaddict's post that eluded to PC driven plots being difficult to get approved

While I appreciate your response, none of those things that you spoke of have anything to do with 'taking reins', i.e. taking control of the beast you ride on.  Little minor plots are still in place.  Little nuances are still in place.  Things with a small footprint are still in place.  Which is why my 'gripe' was not a very big one, as much as an idea to allow those small things to grow up into larger things, as they used to on a fairly consistent basis.  This was removed for reasons, and I'm making the call to re-examine those reasons.

I remember watching a noble-to-noble rivalry lately that was -so- enjoyable to watch.  But it couldn't really grow.  There weren't enough projects for them to interfere with.  There was not a big enough izdari board for their pieces to be used effectively against each other.  This is what I mean by 'taking the reins'.  I'm not saying vast world changing things, but I -am- talking about steering the direction of a clan you're leading rather than being an administrator for something static.  Even internally...if you read the Log about Haadith Oash's fall, he says something like 'This is the same thing as Palimus'.  What he's referring to was an internal clan plot where it was steered by Palimus into the assassination/execution of a senior noble, rather than following another plot, to shake up the ranking structure and make room for upward movement, i.e. to Warlord rank.  Which I promptly lost a couple weeks later, but it was still cool to -steer- the way the plot went, and change the House Organization.

Edited here to add:  I tend to ramble.  Sorry.  This is not a huge complaint of mine or anything, just kind of a way of saying that I think since changing that staff style, the idea of keeping things static and unchanging as far as clans, their interactions, their relationships, their goals, and so on, has drawn more and more towards static.  I don't know if the change in staffing method was the cause, or coincidence, which is why I prefaced it with 'no empirical data'.  My thoughts often wander on the game.  Your plots sound cool though!  I'd play in 'em!

QuoteYeah but the opposite of circle jerking is blind cheerleading and it's annoying both ways.

I'm not sure if you were directing that at me personally or not.
If so:
   I would hardly call my 'cheerleading' blind.  I'm almost 32.  I've played since I was 15.  I have taken breaks.  I have argued.  I have been sworn at by staff.  I have abused staff.  I have been abused by staff.  I have been suspended.  I have been reprimanded, karma-docked, karma-gifted, resurrected, denied resurrections, empathized with, been empathized with...if you want to call 17 years of playing a game 'blind support', then you are only satisfying the requirement I had for some to be considered very amusing to me.  The call for revolution because of what are very small events is...ridiculous.  This game remains the greatest roleplaying experience on the net.  That is my opinion.  It is not a blind one.

If not:
  Ignore the above.  As said before, I think sometimes the parameters of enjoyment are either narrowed too far to where satisfaction is impossible (Why can't I make a character that dominates the entire game?  Why won't they support me and let me build a permanent castle at 5 days of play time with a few work logs?  Why won't they resurrect characters that died the same way as hundreds of characters before who did not get resurrected?), or to where the fact of the matter is that if -that- is what they enjoy about Armageddon, and it does not exist (and, frankly, sometimes -never- existed despite weak, uninformed explanation of why they think it used to happen)...why are they not looking for where that existed?  I will always consider someone saying 'I still enjoy the hell out of this game' far more tolerable than 'I don't like what they did to me and we should take over the game and make it the way I want it.'  And that is why it makes me laugh.
Edited -here- to add: Essentially...there is a constant mentality over there from most elements (there are some good thoughts as well from a minority) that support for Armageddon is always out of fear.  Instead of me -actually- still enjoying roleplay here.  It's a pervasive mentality there that makes a lot of their posts...hilarious to read.  They accuse people so easily of having blinders, where that is the exact symptom I'd give them, usually over an event that is, again...a minor occurrence.  The Rolling Stones - Can't Always Get What You Want would be incredibly helpful to them.  Heh.  TRY SOMETIMES.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: wizturbo on October 15, 2015, 06:23:23 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 06:06:01 PM
Even internally...if you read the Log about Haadith Oash's fall, he says something like 'This is the same thing as Palimus'.  What he's referring to was an internal clan plot where it was steered by Palimus into the assassination/execution of a senior noble, rather than following another plot, to shake up the ranking structure and make room for upward movement, i.e. to Warlord rank.  Which I promptly lost a couple weeks later, but it was still cool to -steer- the way the plot went, and change the House Organization.


Things on this level (or greater, really) have happened within the last 6 months due to PC's choices.  I wish I could say more, but it's still ICly sensitive. 
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 06:30:33 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 15, 2015, 06:23:23 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 15, 2015, 06:06:01 PM
Even internally...if you read the Log about Haadith Oash's fall, he says something like 'This is the same thing as Palimus'.  What he's referring to was an internal clan plot where it was steered by Palimus into the assassination/execution of a senior noble, rather than following another plot, to shake up the ranking structure and make room for upward movement, i.e. to Warlord rank.  Which I promptly lost a couple weeks later, but it was still cool to -steer- the way the plot went, and change the House Organization.


Things on this level (or greater, really) have happened within the last 6 months due to PC's choices.  I wish I could say more, but it's still ICly sensitive.

Well.  I honestly didn't mean for it to devolve into what it was so much as spew a random idea out to combat the idea of stagnation.  I -do- see a bit of a problem with the clan system as it's set up.  Closing Tuluk the first time made it the golden age of the north (in my opinion), but that can't really be reached here because there is no antagonist.  Previously, the north became a raiding, lawless, wild-west area...but the Arm was still there.  You could still play in it.  The Arm was fighting crime, the Rebellion, gith, etc...there were different clans interested in different fronts of that global conflict.  I can't say things -are- stagnating with any evidence, again...but I do fear it will, as I make characters and try to decide what I'd like to get involved in, and finding...fewer options.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Inks on October 15, 2015, 07:41:01 PM
Renaming this thread would help.
Title: Re: Everything is Beautiful in its Own Way
Post by: FantasyWriter on October 15, 2015, 07:47:05 PM
-Ray Stevens
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 15, 2015, 10:45:10 PM
Quote from: Inks on October 15, 2015, 07:41:01 PM
Renaming this thread would help.

I propose the following title,

"No, feck YOU! A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times"
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: LauraMars on October 15, 2015, 10:52:25 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 15, 2015, 10:45:10 PM"No, feck YOU! A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times"

too long
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 15, 2015, 10:58:25 PM
"No, feck YOU!" is shorter.
Title: How Nyr secretly caused all of this
Post by: Jihelu on October 15, 2015, 11:05:44 PM
I think my title idea is more fitting.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 15, 2015, 11:12:11 PM
Nyr's title change made me go from raving and cane-waving madman to ponderous French philosopher and all around welcoming jovialiste.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: LauraMars on October 15, 2015, 11:22:04 PM
that was me

rofl

I can change it back.

edit: Wait WAS IT ME???????????
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 15, 2015, 11:30:53 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on October 15, 2015, 11:22:04 PM
that was me

rofl

I can change it back.

edit: Wait WAS IT ME???????????

Nah, I like it! It fits well with me currently smoking my Popeye candy pipe and sipping my red juice.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: LauraMars on October 15, 2015, 11:33:50 PM
I actually don't remember changing the title, but I must have, because it has my name right on the edit. Am I also drinking red juice?

Maybe. (http://foodimentary.com/2015/10/15/october-15-is-national-red-wine-day/)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taijan on October 16, 2015, 12:36:21 AM
I say, this environment feels much more welcoming now.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Iiyola on October 16, 2015, 01:02:25 AM
LOL! I see what you did there, Taijan.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Old Kank on October 16, 2015, 01:09:28 AM
Quote from: Ender on October 13, 2015, 05:40:15 PM
There really does need to be an honest discussion over what keeps players interested in the game and what staff asks of those players.

I'll be honest.  After 20 years, Armageddon has gotten stale.  I still play now and then, but I'm mostly just chasing the dragon.  With that in mind, here are some thoughts:

The way I play is different now than it used to be.

I used to sit down to play Arm, and I would do JUST that.  I would have my telnet window up, and maybe a notepad or two with notes on my character.  Now, Arm is an ancillary part of my online experience.  Chances are, I have something playing on Netflix, possibly a game going on Steam, or an Excel spreadsheet up that I'm working on, and I have phone in front of me so that I can text my friends, or browse Facebook in my downtime.  And in a little corner of one monitor, I have MUSHclient up so I can half-heartedly follow things in game.

The simple fact is that Arm faces really, really steep competition for the attention of its players.

Characters behave differently now than they used to.

This is the one that really stymies me, I think.

People don't seem to congregate much anymore, and Jesus Christ, when they do they're so uptight with their interactions.  Today, I saw a noble and a templar out in the city for the first time in months, if not years.  Every now and then I'll hear of a GMH family member, but I can't remember the last time I saw one out in the city.  I log in, and I see 40+ players on, but I'm lucky if I can find three characters in publicly accessible areas.  It doesn't even really matter, anyway, because I'm not interested in hearing the same old polite bar conversation for the eight-thousandth time.

I have a hard time finding recruiters and joining clans lately.  If there's mystery and intrigue going on out there, I don't know how or where to find it, and I haven't even seen anything that makes me think I should go looking for it.  If I were a new player, I can't imagine the story aspect of the game hooking me.

Requirements seem to have changed.

I could be way off base with this one, but perception is reality, so... whatever.

The cost-benefit ratio for dealing with staff seems really, really, really, ridiculously high.  Affecting change on the world is too hard relative to all the other stuff I could be doing.  I'm just not that interested in pouring time and energy into something that can very easily be taken away by staff or players.  I'm not bitter or anything, that's just my honest reaction when I think about trying to achieve something in this game now.  "It's not worth the trouble."

This is getting into rose-tinted territory, but I remember a time when I emailed my clan staff and said, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if my character heard a rumor about some buried treasure out in that old cave?  I'll play it out and take the clan out there next Saturday."  And the response was:  "Cool!  We'll see if we can make something happen."  We took some shovels, went out to the cave, fought some bad dudes, found some buried treasure, and a good time was had by all.  I don't feel like I could do that now, and I haven't in a long time.

Some off-the-cuff suggestions.

- Make it easier to find players.  Publish clan numbers and playtimes, so us off-peakers can congregate. 

- Add RPT's to the weekly announcement after they're over, and give a shout-out to the responsible players/clans/staff, so players can see where the fun stuff is happening.

- Maybe categorize RPTs so players can differentiate between bread and circus RPTs from war and fighting RPTs.  Social RPT, action RPT, magic RPT, whatever.

- I might consider paying for a mobile app that would allow my character to send and receive psionic messages via my phone, while not logged on.

- If staff attitudes have changed toward helping players and barriers to entry, make that shit known.  Like, seriously.  Let's talk about specific examples, ala wizturbo.

- Give tangible rewards to players for putting in the time and effort in doing shit.  Come up with a reward system like karma, but separate.  Let's call them RP points (RPP).  5 RPP gets you a skill bump.  10 RPP gets you a free special app per calendar year.  100 RPP gets your CGP limit raised.  You get the idea.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: dhorw on October 16, 2015, 08:01:15 AM
Hey!

As a quite new player i must say playing as a northener is just boring.
After 18 hours in-game i met ONE player ONCE. That's amazing.
I can't even buy cures and i can't rent room in apartment, and there's much more things which i can't do.

p.s. i'm not fan of joining clans.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Majikal on October 16, 2015, 09:10:17 AM
Quote from: dhorw on October 16, 2015, 08:01:15 AM
Hey!

As a quite new player i must say playing as a northener is just boring.
After 18 hours in-game i met ONE player ONCE. That's amazing.
I can't even buy cures and i can't rent room in apartment, and there's much more things which i can't do.

p.s. i'm not fan of joining clans.


Sorry to hear that man, unfortunately with the closure of Tuluk there's really NOT a whole lot of steady interaction in the north. People tend to congregate around the places that have the things like apartments and clans etc. If you want less boring, Nak is where it's at. Storm and Luir's have varying degrees of activity than can feel hit and miss at times. But in Allanak, the spans of silence tend to be relatively small. While the option to play a tuluki was left open as a rp option, it's closure has made playing a diehard northern tuluki pretty much impossible. You have no city for shelter, you have no soldiers to keep you safe, you have no nobles to support work or clans to join, you have no templars to keep the big bad stuff away etc etc (obviously these things still exist, it's just not an active piece of the world managed by staff and players anymore).
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 16, 2015, 09:11:33 AM
QuoteYeah but the opposite of circle jerking is blind cheerleading and it's annoying both ways.

I'm not sure if you were directing that at me personally or not.

Hey Armaddict, just read that and no, it wasn't directed at all to you, it was more of a general comment :) My apologies if you thought I was targeting you.

Quote from: dhorw on October 16, 2015, 08:01:15 AM
Hey!

As a quite new player i must say playing as a northener is just boring.
After 18 hours in-game i met ONE player ONCE. That's amazing.
I can't even buy cures and i can't rent room in apartment, and there's much more things which i can't do.

p.s. i'm not fan of joining clans.

Out of curiosity, you mention that you are playing as a northerner.. Where exactly are you playing? I thought that there would be a lot of people to bump into in the Gaj, but I'm a little confused as to how a newbie would end up playing in the north!
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: dhorw on October 16, 2015, 09:22:53 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 16, 2015, 09:11:33 AM
Out of curiosity, you mention that you are playing as a northerner.. Where exactly are you playing? I thought that there would be a lot of people to bump into in the Gaj, but I'm a little confused as to how a newbie would end up playing in the north!

I've just pointed tuluk.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 16, 2015, 09:27:13 AM
Quote from: dhorw on October 16, 2015, 09:22:53 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 16, 2015, 09:11:33 AM
Out of curiosity, you mention that you are playing as a northerner.. Where exactly are you playing? I thought that there would be a lot of people to bump into in the Gaj, but I'm a little confused as to how a newbie would end up playing in the north!

I've just pointed tuluk.

Huh. I haven't played in a while but I'm curious to know why people are still allowed to point to Tuluk without some big warnings that they won't find many people to play with.

The majority of the playerbase is concentrated in Allanak (the south) these days.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Majikal on October 16, 2015, 09:37:24 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 16, 2015, 09:27:13 AM
Huh. I haven't played in a while but I'm curious to know why people are still allowed to point to Tuluk without some big warnings that they won't find many people to play with.

Cause three weeks from now it might be bumpin and jumpin and whatever. No way to know.

As to big warnings or at least a descent hint...

Upon login:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A R M A G E D D O N   M O T D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  April 27th, 2015
  *   Tuluk is now closed to play.  If you log in to a Tuluki room you will
      automatically be moved to a nearby outpost.

  April 13th, 2015
  *   Tuluk will no longer be available for play starting April, 27th 2015.
      Characters can still be from Tuluk but they will not be able to play in
       Tuluk.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nyr on October 16, 2015, 09:39:45 AM
First PC cannot point to Tuluk, but they can be from it.  After that, it's the same as pointing anywhere, really...

If you don't point to Allanak, your chances of interaction are slimmer.  That could be made more clear.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: nessalin on October 16, 2015, 11:46:07 AM
Quote from: Old Kank on October 16, 2015, 01:09:28 AM
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, diam ante at montes donec posuere suspendisse. Consectetuer pharetra ac malesuada habitant non viverra, tempor tell....

Greatly appreciate the examples of how players mud today vs in the past.  An oft overlooked factor in the mudding experience.  Generally all focus put on the game.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Delirium on October 16, 2015, 12:21:13 PM
Every single thing Old Kank said.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Ath on October 16, 2015, 12:59:06 PM
This is just me talking, I am not stating that this is going to happen, or will happen, but more so I am interested in some of Old Kank's suggestions and want to discuss them.

What about having it possible that when players announced an RPT, they can put in the notification about it the type of RPT it is?  Hey this is a Social RPT in Luir's at this time!  Details on the IC Board.  Still can be vague, but gives a bit more details and I can go, hmm... maybe I should have my character go find out more if it is feasible for my character.

I'm trying to think of a way we can make it so that players can state, Hey I am playing in the South and this is my playtimes!  The issues is, characters die and we don't want players to out their characters, etc etc.  How about for the off-peak players, you create some simple social RPTs?  (Ie.  There is a small mini-RPT in Red Storm at some off-peak time, see IC Board for details.  IC board talks about some people asking around about gambling at this time.)  Actually, I encourage this to be honest.  I don't see an issue with players creating more RPTs, even for more simple social experiences.  This could allow for off-peak or players that are playing in underpopulated areas to get it known...  HEY!  There are characters here!  We're Lonely!  Come visit us! (at this time)

I like the idea of a reward system to be honest, something other than karma.  On that point though, there have been many talks on reworking karma entirely, this could be apart of that.

---

I'll be honest, I think we need to work on making it easier for you all to post about RPTs and realize that RPTs don't have to be big events, it can be anything.  Even if your character isn't a host or leader, you can post about an RPT.  Use the IC boards to post that people have been gathering around this time to drink together and swap stories, or they are gathering to play some Kruth together, or maybe Tek's Tower or whatever!

What do you guys think?

EDIT:  On top of this, I am also going to make an effort to look at the post RPTs and make sure to try to be there as staff.  I know animations always make things more fun.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 16, 2015, 01:20:01 PM
A few random thoughts on how things are different:

1. Templars feel like they've been neutered these days. I remember how a templar could walk into Flint's Tavern back in the day and you'd feel a rush of adrenaline, they were so dangerous. They'd openly shake you down for coin or kill you on a whim. But it wasn't all one-sided. People hated them and plotted against them. They often died to assassins (not the guild, to whoever was strong enough to take revenge). Now they often walk about without even bothering to call a guard or two, things are so sedate.

2. The crafting subguilds made people a lot more independent. Some of them allowed vast sums of money to be made quickly at no risk. That's been reduced but not totally fixed. In response, maybe as a sort of defense against constant player demands, avenues for spending coins have been closed off. No homes, no carts, no anything special. The result is that characters often don't need clan pay, they don't need a noble's reward, they don't need bribes, and so on.

3. For few shining years IG, literacy was available to all (no read or write skills, you could just do it). That certainly motivated my character at the time. Now a whole portion of the game is just locked off to sponsored characters.

4. Introduction of so many clan compounds and apartments. Used to be the taverns were full of people which made for a more lively atmosphere. Now they're all compartmentalized. Even within taverns, they're compartmentalized by the 'talk' command.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 01:29:30 PM
Ath,

For what it's worth, anything that can be done to make RPT's easier to schedule will greatly increase my personal interest in running them more often.

The administrative burden of coordinating play times with multiple clans and staff without a forum or something is just too great for me.  I've tried it, and it's just awful.  It's like calling up every person you want to invite to your party, hoping to catch them on their home phone line which is spotty at best, and then having to reschedule your party when one or two of them can't make it, leading to a whole new round of calls to try and coordinate again....I just won't do it anymore.

If I could post something like this, I would run more RPTs:

Combat RPT for the Byn, House Rennik, House Valika, and the two Nenyuki bankers.

-Clan membership, please use the voting buttons above to indicate which times you can make.
-Clan leadership, please use the leader attendance voting buttons above to indicate which times you can make.  Need 3 out of 4 clan leaders to make this a go.


Sure, it spreads a bit of IC information out there for the player base at large...but who cares!?  OOC Coordination > Keeping a lid on rather minor IC info
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 01:37:11 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 16, 2015, 01:20:01 PM
A few random thoughts on how things are different:

1. Templars feel like they've been neutered these days. I remember how a templar could walk into Flint's Tavern back in the day and you'd feel a rush of adrenaline, they were so dangerous. They'd openly shake you down for coin or kill you on a whim. But it wasn't all one-sided. People hated them and plotted against them. They often died to assassins (not the guild, to whoever was strong enough to take revenge). Now they often walk about without even bothering to call a guard or two, things are so sedate.


I'll admit, my fondest memories in Armageddon were when Kishime Fale the Blue would walk into the Bard's Barrel and I felt a palpable tension...because he was scary.  I loved Kishime Fale, and part of me wishes I could play such a ruthless, scary monster like him...  I just can't do it.  He created a ton of conflict and fear, but I think he also created a lot of hard feelings OOCly, and drove people away from the game, if not Allanak (not me though, I loved him...).

Man, he would sit a halfbreed girl on his lap in the Bard's Barrel (he had a thing for halfbreeds) and no one would say a fucking word about it, even the nobility wouldn't say anything to his face about it, because he was SCARY.  He'd kill you.  He really, really would.  *fond sigh*

Memories....http://armageddon.org/original/search/kishime (http://armageddon.org/original/search/kishime)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Refugee on October 16, 2015, 02:03:33 PM
A scary Fale?!
:o
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taijan on October 16, 2015, 02:17:50 PM
Quote from: Refugee on October 16, 2015, 02:03:33 PM
A scary Fale?!
:o

Fale's colors are green and purple. You know who else's colors are green and purple?

(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/f/f9/Heath_Ledger_as_the_Joker.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20090903145508)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Refugee on October 16, 2015, 02:27:21 PM
Quote from: Taijan on October 16, 2015, 02:17:50 PM
Quote from: Refugee on October 16, 2015, 02:03:33 PM
A scary Fale?!
:o

Fale's colors are green and purple. You know who else's colors are green and purple?

(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/f/f9/Heath_Ledger_as_the_Joker.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20090903145508)
Yikes.

Can't argue with that!
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 02:36:28 PM
Reminded me a lot of Archibald Cunningham from Rob Roy.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Ath on October 16, 2015, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 16, 2015, 01:20:01 PM
A few random thoughts on how things are different:

1. Templars feel like they've been neutered these days. I remember how a templar could walk into Flint's Tavern back in the day and you'd feel a rush of adrenaline, they were so dangerous. They'd openly shake you down for coin or kill you on a whim. But it wasn't all one-sided. People hated them and plotted against them. They often died to assassins (not the guild, to whoever was strong enough to take revenge). Now they often walk about without even bothering to call a guard or two, things are so sedate.

2. The crafting subguilds made people a lot more independent. Some of them allowed vast sums of money to be made quickly at no risk. That's been reduced but not totally fixed. In response, maybe as a sort of defense against constant player demands, avenues for spending coins have been closed off. No homes, no carts, no anything special. The result is that characters often don't need clan pay, they don't need a noble's reward, they don't need bribes, and so on.

3. For few shining years IG, literacy was available to all (no read or write skills, you could just do it). That certainly motivated my character at the time. Now a whole portion of the game is just locked off to sponsored characters.

4. Introduction of so many clan compounds and apartments. Used to be the taverns were full of people which made for a more lively atmosphere. Now they're all compartmentalized. Even within taverns, they're compartmentalized by the 'talk' command.


1 - Then app up a Templar that is ruthless, cunning, dangerous, scary... before I came back on staff, I did just that.  It may not have been approved, but I believe in harsh and deadly.  Now I may not just kill someone randomly, but I'd kill them if I had purpose.  Now maybe I would torture them, fine them, or just use the person then banish them from the city.  I do think Templars can be a bit more harsh in the current world.  I remember when I first came to play, I feared Templars AND Nobles.  I remember a certain Female Tor Noble that would walk into the Gaj and stabbed someones hand to the top of the bar.  She was not someone to mess with.

2 - Crafting is very widespread now, but I think it is working fine now.  Always willing to take feedback and suggestions.

3 - I can agree and disagree here.  We have opened up the option of literacy to Special Apps though, that could make it more available to commoners.  The other issue is writing can be a tad buggy. :-/

4 - I have to agree a bit on this one, there are a lot of -other- places to go, but I still see people congregate at bars when they -want- to meet up with others.  The issue is the low pop bars in low pop areas.  Those places can be a bit dead for longer periods.  Those are places where I suggest people create simple social RPTs.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 01:29:30 PM
Ath,

Stuff here.

I agree but I can't make a call on that.  Coordination between clans for RPTs is difficult and I do agree we need to come up with something to help with this.  This isn't official, but what if we allowed OOC Communication between Sponsored Roles/Leaders?  Do you think that would help at all?  This would require coding, but what about have a RPT Coordination Request where staff can add Sponsored Role Players to the Request to arrange RPT times, and it can still be monitored by staff, even if they don't have to be at the RPT?  Once again, another idea... not even sure if it would be possible.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Mordiggian on October 16, 2015, 03:18:47 PM
There are significant code issues we need to resolve before we can discuss expanding the availability of literacy. I'm not a coder and I don't understand the specifics, but literacy code is one of the primary culprits when it comes to game crashes.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 16, 2015, 03:24:58 PM
There's nothing stopping people from making big scary templars who will shakedown and murder people right now.  Most recent templars have just chosen to not be like that.  That is totally on the players and has nothing to do with staff direction to act the contrary.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 16, 2015, 03:57:25 PM
Hi,

I'm a newish player.

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but I want to follow up on some points that In Dreams and Desertman made about how people perceive the staff at Armageddon MUD.  It's a pretty simple point: recently, I was cruising mudconnect and Optional Realities and came across Asandras's post.  Apparently, he had some fight with staff about something IC sensitive, and some nasty things were said in both directions, mostly, as far as I can figure, from him.  (I don't really like his writing style, so I didn't read a lot of it.)  Regardless of the case, what was shocking to me was to see the replies that staff (Nyr and Nessalin in particular) had written to him when they banned him.  I don't know if it is appropriate to post it here, but to summarize: the language of the ban letter was terribly unprofessional -- there was a kind of glee to it, and I, at least, was really disheartened to read it.

What's the point?  Regardless of whether or not Asandras should have been banned, this sort of stuff really -does- feed into the perception that staff at Armageddon are, and no offence, terribly mean and unprofessional people.  

As a matter of strategy, I would probably suggest that when staff bans someone, the language be professional to the extreme, because, you know, when someone gets banned, they are going to get upset, and they are going to broadcast that to the internets.  A simple form letter will suffice -- there's really no need to add a poem to it, or to name call, or anything else like that.

Seriously, there are so few people banned, it's just not worth the bad perception that such language brings with it.  When people perceive staff as terrible people (again, no offence to the lovely staff here, I've had wonderful staff interactions), then they lose a lot of motivation to want to play or join in the first place.

Maybe this doesn't happen so often and isn't worth it, but something to think about.



Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Erythil on October 16, 2015, 04:00:24 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 16, 2015, 03:24:58 PM
There's nothing stopping people from making big scary templars who will shakedown and murder people right now.  Most recent templars have just chosen to not be like that.  That is totally on the players and has nothing to do with staff direction to act the contrary.

If people don't like the current templars, they could always murder templars until they got one in line with their preferences. 8)

Someone said they didn't like templars not calling guards when they walk around.  Maybe it's an opportunity for you to take their silver!
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taijan on October 16, 2015, 04:18:42 PM
2 - Characters not needing clan pay/bribes/etc.
I wanted to chime in a little here, because I like numbers and crafting-related things. It's easy to point at crafting and say that it allows people to make a lot of money too easily, but that same finger can be pointed in many directions in the game.  The one common factor in any system that allows someone to make a lot of money is that someone needs to be willing to dedicate a lot of time performing the same series of actions over and over.  That can be crafting, foraging, hunting - really any action that lets someone exchange items for coins can be exploited if they devote enough time and effort.

However, the same means that some people use to get rich are the same ones used by people that are really just trying to get by.  They perform x action just enough to achieve their character's immediate goals. Maybe they're a casual player, or have limited time to play and would rather interact with others than have their characters get very wealthy.

Changing things to make it harder for the person in the first example to get rich runs the risk of making things even more difficult for the person in the second.  Personally, I don't think that risk is worth it.

So for people who don't need clan pay, a noble's reward, or other things of that nature - which category do you fall into?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 04:38:11 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 16, 2015, 03:00:14 PM

I agree but I can't make a call on that.  Coordination between clans for RPTs is difficult and I do agree we need to come up with something to help with this.  This isn't official, but what if we allowed OOC Communication between Sponsored Roles/Leaders?  Do you think that would help at all?  This would require coding, but what about have a RPT Coordination Request where staff can add Sponsored Role Players to the Request to arrange RPT times, and it can still be monitored by staff, even if they don't have to be at the RPT?  Once again, another idea... not even sure if it would be possible.

Yes!

Or something as simple as a "clan leader" forum where all clan leadership has access and can OOCly communicate if they choose to.  Would require less coding.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Ath on October 16, 2015, 04:52:03 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 04:38:11 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 16, 2015, 03:00:14 PM

I agree but I can't make a call on that.  Coordination between clans for RPTs is difficult and I do agree we need to come up with something to help with this.  This isn't official, but what if we allowed OOC Communication between Sponsored Roles/Leaders?  Do you think that would help at all?  This would require coding, but what about have a RPT Coordination Request where staff can add Sponsored Role Players to the Request to arrange RPT times, and it can still be monitored by staff, even if they don't have to be at the RPT?  Once again, another idea... not even sure if it would be possible.

Yes!

Or something as simple as a "clan leader" forum where all clan leadership has access and can OOCly communicate if they choose to.  Would require less coding.

Yes, that is true, and actually doesn't require that much work.  Can be done with clan requests and would mainly only apply to sponsored roles.

EDIT:  The only issue I can think of with this is cross clan information or groups knowing that something is going down outside of those involved.  Though those within Sponsored Roles should be trusted to not utilize OOC information, it would just be a trust thing.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Erythil on October 16, 2015, 04:58:41 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 16, 2015, 04:52:03 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 04:38:11 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 16, 2015, 03:00:14 PM

I agree but I can't make a call on that.  Coordination between clans for RPTs is difficult and I do agree we need to come up with something to help with this.  This isn't official, but what if we allowed OOC Communication between Sponsored Roles/Leaders?  Do you think that would help at all?  This would require coding, but what about have a RPT Coordination Request where staff can add Sponsored Role Players to the Request to arrange RPT times, and it can still be monitored by staff, even if they don't have to be at the RPT?  Once again, another idea... not even sure if it would be possible.

Yes!

Or something as simple as a "clan leader" forum where all clan leadership has access and can OOCly communicate if they choose to.  Would require less coding.

Yes, that is true, and actually doesn't require that much work.  Can be done with clan requests and would mainly only apply to sponsored roles.

EDIT:  The only issue I can think of with this is cross clan information or groups knowing that something is going down outside of those involved.  Though those within Sponsored Roles should be trusted to not utilize OOC information, it would just be a trust thing.

I think the benefits outweigh the risks here, as many times I've wanted to RPTs and have the date drag on for weeks while I wait for serendipitous playtime matching with other leaders, plus the approval for necessary admin oversight.  Not that I'm upset about it, it's just an inevitable consequence of the current system.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 04:59:19 PM
I agree with Erythil, benefits outweigh the risks.  

And sponsored roles/leaders can always make forum throwaway accounts if they'd rather keep their identity secret, so no real concerns on that front.

I'd just limit the discussion on that forum to strictly scheduling, nothing else.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Ath on October 16, 2015, 05:12:43 PM
Which people already do with the throw away or different than there normal account.  I like this idea, I'll bring it up.  No promises it will go anywhere, but it's the least I can do to bring up the idea.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: ibusoe on October 16, 2015, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 14, 2015, 05:59:45 PM
This is the whole point of the Player Clan System.  I will admit not every concept works great with it, but you could work towards something like a brewery.  The problem with this particular one is the difficulty of making new liquids in the game, right now there is no easy way to do it and requires a coder to do it.  So the MC system might not be the best thing for this.  It's rough, I love the concept, I could see it happening in game, but we're limited in execution a bit.  The concept of a Minor Merchant House is that they are have a single specialty of some sort that they base their existence off of.  Working to that goal is not supposed to be easy or quick.  Making a mark on the world shouldn't be easy or quick.

If you have some ideas that you want to try in game, I ask you to drop me a line via the request tool.  I'd be happy to discuss them with you so we don't have to worry about crossing into IC areas.  Put is in as Clan Related (Unclanned) Question/Request.  Reasonable requests will be answered, if you give me some far out ones, I'll just respond and close.  I'm trying to be serious here, if you have questions or ideas you want to try, ask.

I disagree.  I think the Player Clan System, at least the aspect of it that you're referring to, are so that you can play the Captain of the House Guard, Senior Aide to one of the truly powerful people, or Director of Cover Operations (Read: Top Assassin) for House Kurac.  Traditionally you're supposed to rise through the ranks (read: jump into the funnel) in order to get those positions, and I've nothing negative to say about this process.  Presumably, people can special app directly into those positions if they're feeling impatient, although I for one have always (and I mean always, without exception) been content to attempt to rise through the ranks.

What I was alluding to was completely different.  

What I think you should be able to do, without a special app, is to create in your background (or through a modest amount of effort and role-play) that you're the son of a brewer, or whatever.  
Step 2 - profit!

If the app is approved, then suddenly you're a brewer.  There shouldn't need to be a ton of background effort needed to support or implement (on either the player's side or the staffs) this kind of a role.  

When staff alludes to the MMH process, that's cool for people who want to build an upper-middle class establishment that will outlive their character, may outlive the player .  What I'm proposing is that there be a streamlined process for people who want to play lower-middle class characters, which if you think about it describes pretty much all PCs that aren't flat-out wealthy.  

Your choices are effectively to play a hunter or a mercenary or a craftsman or an aide or nothing.  A slight diversity in roles would not only be 100% more fun, but probably would contribute substantially to game atmosphere.  

What would a raider need to get started?  A safe place to camp.

What would an arrow-smith need to get started?  Five quivers full of custom arrows.

What would an indie-merchant need to get started?  Maybe a single NPC willing to place a single public, high-profile order

Really easy stuff for the most part.  

Now I understand that you're one of the more responsive staffers, one of the friendlier people in an already friendly crowd, but your suggestion was a bit wanting, and I think it's just because the (admittedly awesome) ticketing system, combined with the Funnel, kind of distracts you guys into procedural thinking.  

Let's say you felt like the brew code limitations were preventing you from being as helpful as you would like to be?  It's cool.  Were it my decision to make for a player that I really trusted, I'd float them ten kegs of custom ale per month, plus storage space.  For someone I trusted quite a bit, I'd float them eight kegs of custom ale per month.  For someone I didn't know that well, I'd float them six kegs of custom ale (one time gift) and after that they'd be on there own.

I could accomplish quite a lot with something like that, even a tiny boost would help me to make my mark on the world.  

Perhaps rather than focus on what the staff can't do, maybe focus on what you can do?  Even throwing me a bone would be far more encouraging.  Why should Morgenes update the brewing code if you and I aren't even making the best of what little we have available?

Please don't think I'm singling you out - you clearly want to help the players so in my mind you're one of the good guys.  
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Ath on October 16, 2015, 05:51:13 PM
If I have to guess, you've played on SoI before, as what you are talking about sounds a bit like what they have with their character creation system, or at least what it did when I used to be staff there.

Basically giving players a bit more than just a few coins, they app for a role, and that role could be a farmer, said farmer may start with farmland or whatever.

See, that is where the difference of Armageddon comes in.  I'm trying to think of a good way to explain it, but I will try.  In Armageddon, you are no one special... you are not an adventurer, you are not a hero, you are not someone that typically matters at all... when you start your character.  Now that doesn't mean you can't make your mark, it just means that you just have to work your way up.  Where as SoI for example, you can app a character if you have the Character Creation Points, that is an owner of a farm or a Sergeant in the military, or something along those lines.  That is one major difference.  SoI your character can start out as something of a big name, in essence that is kinda the same as our Sponsored Roles.  A Nobles hate quite a lot going for it right off from the beginning, as does a Sergeant in the Byn.

I guess what I'm saying is I understand where you are coming from with being able to make a character that has a bit more than others, but you have to look at the potential for work involved with that.  We don't try to limit work because we don't want to support players, we want to limit it so we can focus on things that matter to more than one or two players, but the game as a whole.  A lot of the projects we are working on behind the scenes wouldn't happen if we had to focus on the few, rather than the many.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: ibusoe on October 16, 2015, 06:09:49 PM
Quote from: Ath on October 16, 2015, 05:51:13 PM
If I have to guess, you've played on SoI before, as what you are talking about sounds a bit like what they have with their character creation system, or at least what it did when I used to be staff there.

Basically giving players a bit more than just a few coins, they app for a role, and that role could be a farmer, said farmer may start with farmland or whatever.

See, that is where the difference of Armageddon comes in.  I'm trying to think of a good way to explain it, but I will try.  In Armageddon, you are no one special... you are not an adventurer, you are not a hero, you are not someone that typically matters at all... when you start your character.  Now that doesn't mean you can't make your mark, it just means that you just have to work your way up.  Where as SoI for example, you can app a character if you have the Character Creation Points, that is an owner of a farm or a Sergeant in the military, or something along those lines.  That is one major difference.  SoI your character can start out as something of a big name, in essence that is kinda the same as our Sponsored Roles.  A Nobles hate quite a lot going for it right off from the beginning, as does a Sergeant in the Byn.

I guess what I'm saying is I understand where you are coming from with being able to make a character that has a bit more than others, but you have to look at the potential for work involved with that.  We don't try to limit work because we don't want to support players, we want to limit it so we can focus on things that matter to more than one or two players, but the game as a whole.  A lot of the projects we are working on behind the scenes wouldn't happen if we had to focus on the few, rather than the many.

Thank you for being that specific.  I can agree that those are very good points.  I don't fully agree with you philosophically here, but it's nice to be heard out in full, and I can agree that what you're saying here is a rational basis for things being the way that they are currently.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Old Kank on October 16, 2015, 06:56:16 PM
Quote from: ibusoe on October 16, 2015, 05:22:49 PM
Your choices are effectively to play a hunter or a mercenary or a craftsman or an aide or nothing.  A slight diversity in roles would not only be 100% more fun, but probably would contribute substantially to game atmosphere.  

I feel like this is worth repeating, because it's something I feel has changed a lot.  I don't really know why, and I don't have any particular insight, but it might be worth discussing.

I feel like the only viable roles left in the game are: soldier, hunter, grebber, crafter, and aide.  In my mind, a lot of supported roles have dropped off that list because they're just not that viable: thief, assassin, spy, salesman, raider, tribal, mage, elf, dwarf, mul, sorcerer, psionicist.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Lizzie on October 16, 2015, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Old Kank on October 16, 2015, 06:56:16 PM
Quote from: ibusoe on October 16, 2015, 05:22:49 PM
Your choices are effectively to play a hunter or a mercenary or a craftsman or an aide or nothing.  A slight diversity in roles would not only be 100% more fun, but probably would contribute substantially to game atmosphere.  

I feel like this is worth repeating, because it's something I feel has changed a lot.  I don't really know why, and I don't have any particular insight, but it might be worth discussing.

I feel like the only viable roles left in the game are: soldier, hunter, grebber, crafter, and aide.  In my mind, a lot of supported roles have dropped off that list because they're just not that viable: thief, assassin, spy, salesman, raider, tribal, mage, elf, dwarf, mul, sorcerer, psionicist.

It sounds like you might be playing in a different part of the game world where those things don't exist. I don't know where that might be but it's definitely not where I've played in the last year, all the way up to this morning (which was the last time I logged into the game).

First - dwarf, mul, elf, mage, sorcerer, psionicist, tribal: all coded things involving race and guild/subguilt. None of these things are roles. Psionicists can be soldiers, hunters, grebbers, crafters, and aides. They can also be thieves, spies, assassins, and salesmen. Dwarves, sorcs, elves, and tribals can too. Muls are really the only ones on that list that have a fairly limited choice of roles; they must all play escaped slaves. That is their role. But as escaped slaves, they can also be thieves, assassins, spies, raiders, salesmen.

Thieves, assassins, spies, salesmen, are all viable roles; I've played them recently and know several currently-living characters playing in all of those roles. None of them have dropped off the list. They're all perfectly viable.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Mordiggian on October 16, 2015, 07:19:59 PM
Yeah uh... I'm confused by your post, Old Kank. Nevermind the fact that several of the things you list (like dwarf) are not roles in and of themselves... why are they somehow less viable now?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Molten Heart on October 16, 2015, 08:18:58 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 16, 2015, 07:10:50 PM
Quote from: Old Kank on October 16, 2015, 06:56:16 PM
Quote from: ibusoe on October 16, 2015, 05:22:49 PM
Your choices are effectively to play a hunter or a mercenary or a craftsman or an aide or nothing.  A slight diversity in roles would not only be 100% more fun, but probably would contribute substantially to game atmosphere.  

I feel like this is worth repeating, because it's something I feel has changed a lot.  I don't really know why, and I don't have any particular insight, but it might be worth discussing.

I feel like the only viable roles left in the game are: soldier, hunter, grebber, crafter, and aide.  In my mind, a lot of supported roles have dropped off that list because they're just not that viable: thief, assassin, spy, salesman, raider, tribal, mage, elf, dwarf, mul, sorcerer, psionicist.

It sounds like you might be playing in a different part of the game world where those things don't exist. I don't know where that might be but it's definitely not where I've played in the last year, all the way up to this morning (which was the last time I logged into the game).

First - dwarf, mul, elf, mage, sorcerer, psionicist, tribal: all coded things involving race and guild/subguilt. None of these things are roles. Psionicists can be soldiers, hunters, grebbers, crafters, and aides. They can also be thieves, spies, assassins, and salesmen. Dwarves, sorcs, elves, and tribals can too. Muls are really the only ones on that list that have a fairly limited choice of roles; they must all play escaped slaves. That is their role. But as escaped slaves, they can also be thieves, assassins, spies, raiders, salesmen.

Thieves, assassins, spies, salesmen, are all viable roles; I've played them recently and know several currently-living characters playing in all of those roles. None of them have dropped off the list. They're all perfectly viable.

Most roles need to conform to a certain types in order to gain acceptance in the established clans. Without clan membership, most roles aren't really viable other than surviving off the automated systems provided by the code. Do staff support player plots and projects outside of clans?
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Lizzie on October 16, 2015, 08:26:50 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on October 16, 2015, 08:18:58 PM
Most roles need to conform to a certain types in order to gain acceptance in the established clans. Without clan membership, most roles aren't really viable other than surviving off the automated systems provided by the code. Do staff support player plots and projects outside of clans?

Yes, most roles need to conform to certain types in order to gain acceptance in established clans. I agree with that, and it makes sense. There's no point in having a First Hunter who can't hunt, and there's no point in hiring a pacifist soldier who refuses to arrest people on moral grounds. I don't agree that most roles aren't viable without clan membership other than surviving off automated systems provided by the code.

Staff supports player plots and projects outside clans, that, in fact, is one of the reasons why the Independent Staff exist.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Old Kank on October 16, 2015, 08:39:49 PM
Quote from: Mordiggian on October 16, 2015, 07:19:59 PM
Yeah uh... I'm confused by your post, Old Kank. Nevermind the fact that several of the things you list (like dwarf) are not roles in and of themselves... why are they somehow less viable now?

I'm glad you picked dwarf!  That's one I have an explanation for.  Closing Tuluk reduced the number of clans that will allow dwarves.  It was already small, but now it's even smaller.  Same for elves.

I think the best way that I can explain my thought process is this:  A year ago, I made a ranger.  Tried multiple times to get a job with a "flavor" role as a gardener, stable hand, cook, courier, etc..  It didn't work out.  Every clan leader asked the same questions.  "Are you good in storms?"  "Can you fight?"  "Can you craft?"  "No? No? No?  Sorry, can't help you."  Eventually I gave up on the concept, and the character took a job as a hunter.

Or, look at mages.  In Olden Times, clans would hire Vivaduans.  From the help file:  "Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage..." but in practice, today, those who would hire a mage is a very, very small group.  So I think about playing a mage, and then I think, "Ehhh, it'll be super boring and isolated, unless I luck out and find some other bored and isolated mages."

I don't know.  Maybe it's just me.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Harmless on October 16, 2015, 09:15:17 PM
it's definitely not just you, Old Kank. I am storing a character now for my next role.. and it's one of the viable ones you mentioned.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 09:41:39 PM
*whips out his stick to beat the dead horse*

Gemmed should be a clan.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 16, 2015, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 16, 2015, 09:41:39 PM
*whips out his stick to beat the dead horse*

Gemmed should be a clan.

I always liked the idea that the gemmed were a clan in the same way the Jews in Nazi Germany who had to wear stars sewn into their clothing were a clan.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 04:26:16 AM
I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Majikal on October 17, 2015, 06:10:23 AM
Quote from: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 04:26:16 AM
I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

More gemmed ig than elves. Guaranteed.

Play elves 2016!!
Except I won't... cause ya know.. they suck.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 17, 2015, 12:00:34 PM
A Grand Summary of Thread Ideas and Suggestions


I tried to summarize everything correctly. If I mis-represented anyone or anything, just let me know (it was not intentional). Likewise, if I missed anything people were talking about, you can give a shout-out on that, too.


OOC-Related







Plot-Related








World-Related






Role-Related






Code-Related


Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
Quote from: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 04:26:16 AM
I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Delirium on October 17, 2015, 03:30:59 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
Quote from: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 04:26:16 AM
I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

A major reason I had so much fun with my gemmed was because I had a big bad villain to scheme against (albeit eventually with).

A big bad villain that we couldn't just go out and wipe the floor with in an afternoon.

Trusted players need to be able to run powerful antagonists to add interest to the game.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 03:32:11 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
Quote from: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 04:26:16 AM
I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

Is there a reason that them being less popular is particularly bad?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Old Kank on October 17, 2015, 03:52:46 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 03:32:11 PM
Is there a reason that them being less popular is particularly bad?

I think the issue is that there doesn't seem to be much place for them in the game right now.  This goes back to comments on how roles in the game have become very homogenized.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Narf on October 17, 2015, 03:52:52 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 03:32:11 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
Quote from: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 04:26:16 AM
I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

Is there a reason that them being less popular is particularly bad?

All roles should be potentially fun or there's no point to having them. If something is less popular because it's never any fun, that's a problem. If it's less popular because it's just not most people's cup of tea then that'd be fine.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Patuk on October 17, 2015, 04:19:44 PM
Quote from: Majikal on October 17, 2015, 06:10:23 AM
Quote from: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 04:26:16 AM
I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

More gemmed ig than elves. Guaranteed.

Play elves 2016!!
Except I won't... cause ya know.. they suck.

Yes.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 05:26:05 PM
Quote from: Old Kank on October 16, 2015, 08:39:49 PM
Quote from: Mordiggian on October 16, 2015, 07:19:59 PM
Yeah uh... I'm confused by your post, Old Kank. Nevermind the fact that several of the things you list (like dwarf) are not roles in and of themselves... why are they somehow less viable now?

I'm glad you picked dwarf!  That's one I have an explanation for.  Closing Tuluk reduced the number of clans that will allow dwarves.  It was already small, but now it's even smaller.  Same for elves.

I think the best way that I can explain my thought process is this:  A year ago, I made a ranger.  Tried multiple times to get a job with a "flavor" role as a gardener, stable hand, cook, courier, etc..  It didn't work out.  Every clan leader asked the same questions.  "Are you good in storms?"  "Can you fight?"  "Can you craft?"  "No? No? No?  Sorry, can't help you."  Eventually I gave up on the concept, and the character took a job as a hunter.

Or, look at mages.  In Olden Times, clans would hire Vivaduans.  From the help file:  "Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage..." but in practice, today, those who would hire a mage is a very, very small group.  So I think about playing a mage, and then I think, "Ehhh, it'll be super boring and isolated, unless I luck out and find some other bored and isolated mages."

I don't know.  Maybe it's just me.

I also agree that there is limited opportunity for people to play roles that aren't essentially...code-supported video-gamey type roles.  If you want to play someone with a humble trade that is not represented by code but makes sense in the world -- like a gardener for a noble estate -- there is nothing to support you.  Nobles and templar are strictly limited in their hiring decisions by the fact that they're not allowed to officially hire more than 2, or in the latter case, 1 persons officially.  Thus it makes sense that they only want people with the greatest possible code utility.  I realize that they're able to unofficially hire an unlimited number of people, but there's really no incentive to take on a servant like a hairdresser or window-washer, no matter how good their RP, because you're not allowed to actually grant them access to your estate, which means that not only are they dependent on leaders for money, they're also dependent on leaders for even being allowed to interact with other people in their clan.  I'd like to see options to hire people at a low, unpaid, 'personal servant' rank or something like that.

Essentially, the number of non-combat roles is limited to how much sponsored PCs are willing to support them, and there are inducements to NOT support them.  Whereas I think gathering a coterie of minor minions ought to be inherently desirable as it creates more RP for everyone, and keeps the world from feeling like an MMO.

Or, for independent inconsequential flavor roles like a barber or whatever, maybe an option to set yourself as a 'tradesman' in exchange for losing your ability to do certain coded income activities like salting would be a viable solution.  A tradesman would get a small income automatically from...maybe a paymaster at a Ministry of Trade office, or something.  You could fill your flavor niche without starving, but you don't get a crutch that allows you to more easily get rich on the side.
Title: Re: Everything was better before and now it is terrible
Post by: Patuk on October 17, 2015, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Mordiggian on October 14, 2015, 07:09:30 AM
Quote from: Patuk on October 14, 2015, 05:58:56 AM
I'm asking this here and not ATS because there's a number of staffers who appear to read this thread, but do you actually need help in building a new celf clan? One month after I submitted the part one pocket edition abridged extensive docs of mine I ended up fleshing out another idea and wanted to hit myself for not submitting that instead.

I'd also not mind my old docs being reused, since I kiiiiiinda made those just to ensure they'd be viable even if the tribe would get coded. Said docs had some good ways to solve problems celf tribes might have, such as recruitment and whatnot.

I'll tell you what, Patuk. Hit me with a request (use a Character Report and address it to one of the desert elf tribes) with suggestions/thoughts/input you might have about how a c-elf clan can be executed and I'll check it out. I can't promise that you'll get an in-depth response or a bunch of feedback on your ideas because I'm going to copy paste the contents to our IDB brainstorming thread and then close out the request. But I recognize that you might have some valuable input that could be factored into our internal planning.

Okay, so, I've been sorting out my thoughts and have posted this now, and shit's going to be really long, again. I hope you'll be able to make good use of it.

Would you mind it if I also posted it to the gdb in a separate thread if I were to include some minor bits of documentation concerning my now defunct tribe? It could foster a discussion like we have here, and I don't think more feedback is a bad thing for you.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 05:35:49 PM
QuoteI think the issue is that there doesn't seem to be much place for them in the game right now.  This goes back to comments on how roles in the game have become very homogenized.

The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.  The number of clans hiring vivaduans has gone down by, essentially, one (a military clan), in that time.  There have been very rare exceptions throughout that time of different clans hiring on mages, and still rare but not unheard of cases of contracted mage work.  During the time of the Council of Allanaki Mages, when everything remotely plot oriented went to mages 'because they can do it easier', it literally degraded the role of the mundane to that of a bodyguard, which lasted for a decent amount of time.  During that time, when I, as a military leader, said that I didn't want my soldiers being bodyguards and to have an active role in the battle, I was literally told that if that was the case, those forces were not needed.

If that is the time period you're referring to where there was more to do, that is not something to aspire back to.  If you're referring to pre-1998, I still don't think it's something to go back to.  This is not about giving a role something to do, it's about maintaining a game world that has always been this way, and there being a repeated pressure to change it because there is want to do more with mages.  There are some that have enjoyed mages as is and as has-been, and I applaud them.  But that is part of the game, that it is not a high-magic game.

However, for those -wanting- to make it fun, there is always the option of -not- playing a gemmed.  From the times that I played mages, the most common 'thing to do' as a gemmed was hunt down the ungemmed.  Which were far more common than I think they are now.  Renegades were played often.  That doesn't mean you go around and blow everything up, and that's the status of your game.  It means you're actively hidden, doing your things, and when you get found out, you're on an entirely different storyline.  It seems to me that whenever these threads come up, it is essentially a demand for mages to be brought into the fold of normalcy because they want to play the same character type as everyone else, but do it as a mage.  Which is...again...why playing ungemmed is likely the way to go.

In other words, if you can -actually- come up with a way that people will listen to to get mages more fun that doesn't involve 'well, we should change the game world around it to make them more viable', then I'll listen as well.  But the helpfile you refer to has been discussed before, if you search for it, and the time you're referring to, I really just don't remember.  At all.  The first thing about mages I learned in this game was 'Oashi mages okay.  All other mages bad.'


QuoteEssentially, the number of non-combat roles is limited to how much sponsored PCs are willing to support them, and there are inducements to NOT support them.

I actually think this is a problem across the board.  Again.  Closing Tuluk not bad, but closing Tuluk+minimizing number of clans at the same time bad.  We have one state-run military clan, one mercenary military clan, and one merchant house military clan.  That's it.  One of those clans is autonomous, one requires external conflict, and the other has to be hired for conflicts underway.

I do not disagree with the rest of your points, just to be clear.  I just don't think that qualifier was necessary.  There are a lot of limits on roles across the board right now, some of them less understandable than others.  The hiring caps, as time goes on, have gotten under my skin more for the reasons you've said.  i.e. I think limiting military clans to this many people is okay, but limiting the number of people a noble or merchant can support is strange.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Iiyola on October 17, 2015, 06:22:14 PM
QuoteEnable more options for City Elves - Giving city elves options for play, particularly tribal options. Mordiggian is currently working on developing a c-elf clan.

Huya!! Great news! If it's true.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 06:28:52 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 05:35:49 PM
The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

Hardly. For example, even in 2005, people would come by the Vivaduan temple for water and healing and cures. That's extremely rare now. Then there was the Copper War, and Echri/Horiz, and Great Lord Samos and CAM and plenty else giving gemmed things to do and be back then. In fact, gemmed became too prevalent for the liking of some (thus the term 'X-men days').

Now you could just remove them from play and no one would notice.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 06:31:30 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 06:28:52 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 05:35:49 PM
The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

Hardly. For example, even in 2005, people would come by the Vivaduan temple for water and healing and cures. That's extremely rare now. Then there was the Copper War, and Echri/Horiz, and Great Lord Samos and CAM and plenty else giving gemmed things to do and be back then. In fact, gemmed became too prevalent for the liking of some (thus the term 'X-men days').


I pointed out this time period in my post, and why using it as the platform for how to get mages involved is bad.

Edited out literally because I say it too much.  Also added here:  Likewise...those times were not 'increased clans accepting mages' as was the assertion.  That was a clan being made for mages, where they banded together, and became the primary resource of the templarate for pretty much any goal they could have, because again...mages make the mundane mostly useless, particularly in groups.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Patuk on October 17, 2015, 07:06:50 PM
Ok, request sent. I hope this works out soon, two years for one tribe is a crazy long time already.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Mordiggian on October 17, 2015, 07:16:28 PM
I'm not going to get into the reasons why the advent of a new c-elf tribe has been delayed because I only joined staff relatively recently, but we're considering them a high priority project.

With that in mind, another project I mentioned (area update/expansion) is also very high priority and we all only have so many hours in a day for Arm, so I don't want to generate any expectations about turn-around.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on October 17, 2015, 07:25:53 PM
C-ELF CLANS SPAZZ SPAZZ
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 17, 2015, 07:28:35 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 17, 2015, 03:30:59 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
Quote from: Erythil on October 17, 2015, 04:26:16 AM
I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

A major reason I had so much fun with my gemmed was because I had a big bad villain to scheme against (albeit eventually with).

A big bad villain that we couldn't just go out and wipe the floor with in an afternoon.

Trusted players need to be able to run powerful antagonists to add interest to the game.

Fun for mages, boring for everyone else.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Delirium on October 17, 2015, 07:30:01 PM
Imagine that, the game having different plots to offer for different parts of the playerbase.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 17, 2015, 07:31:19 PM
I liked your first post better. I've updated my signature accordingly.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Patuk on October 17, 2015, 07:45:52 PM
Keep huge antagonists of doom in the 'things man was not meant to meddle with' category, and tell templars to not send in the Gemmed next time someone steals his favorite beetle.

Now we can all go home happy.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 17, 2015, 07:56:12 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 06:31:30 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 06:28:52 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 05:35:49 PM
The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

Hardly. For example, even in 2005, people would come by the Vivaduan temple for water and healing and cures. That's extremely rare now. Then there was the Copper War, and Echri/Horiz, and Great Lord Samos and CAM and plenty else giving gemmed things to do and be back then. In fact, gemmed became too prevalent for the liking of some (thus the term 'X-men days').


I pointed out this time period in my post, and why using it as the platform for how to get mages involved is bad.

Edited out literally because I say it too much.  Also added here:  Likewise...those times were not 'increased clans accepting mages' as was the assertion.  That was a clan being made for mages, where they banded together, and became the primary resource of the templarate for pretty much any goal they could have, because again...mages make the mundane mostly useless, particularly in groups.

I wouldn't recommend playing a gemmed except as a flavour role in the current system.  I certainly wouldn't recommend playing a Vivaduan, Elkrosian, or Rukkian gemmed.  Drovians and Whirans do get some tasks, but even then it's not much.  It really isn't.

Vivaduans in particular are designed to work well with a mundane, but there are absolutely no mundanes that you can work with, within documentation.  On their own, Vivaduans have nothing going for them, and staff recognizes this: the big plotlines for Vivaduans are filling cisterns and wet mudsex in between long bouts of staring at the wall.  Every RL month or so, a templar or an Oash noble might ask you if you know a Whiran or a Drovian.

Current staff have also explicitly asked those who traditionally deal with the gemmed (templars and Oash and AoD) to not get gemmed involved in things (to put it mildly), and they also have explicitly told gemmed that they will not support 'high magickal' plotlines at this time.

Here's what I assume is the reasoning: magic is scary and dangerous and rare in Zalanthas.  Since, in terms of code, magic isn't actually scary or dangerous, the only way to make this work is to make it rare.  Unfortunately, this means that the gemmed will be excluded both ICly (obviously, and rightly) and OOCly (no plots, player-driven or staff-driven, no clan and so no OOC coordination for RPTs, no leadership).








Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 17, 2015, 08:02:25 PM
If you don't think magick is scary code-wise then either you or the person attacking you with it is not doing a very good job.

Magick should be OOCly disdained because it can be such an overpowered force compared to mundanes that it trivializes mundane abilities as soon as its introduced.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Old Kank on October 17, 2015, 09:01:47 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 05:35:49 PM
The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

I wasn't even around during the magic explosion of the CAM, but post-1998, I can think of two clans that had magic as their primary focus.  I can think of two noble houses, three merchant groups, two criminal organizations, and at least three tribes that had magic-based roles.  If I look at player-run groups that lasted more than 6 months, but never became full-fledged clans, I can easily add a few more to that count.

Don't even get me started on prior to 1998, what with it's Tuluki mage temples and shit.

That's all a moot point, though, because I agree with you, on just about everything you said.

But where I think we've failed, collectively, is that each time these conversations come up, we have a tendency to say, "Yeah, well, that's a tough role, and if you can't deal with the restrictions then you probably shouldn't play that."  Or worse, "That role doesn't really serve a purpose, so we're going to consolidate it."  So muls had their karma requirements raised.  Slaves were nixed.  Every city elf clan ever was closed.  Noble guards were closed.  Noble houses were closed.  A whole city was closed.

It's been a long process of attrition with very little added in to replace the things we've lost along the way.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Delirium on October 17, 2015, 09:33:29 PM
Adding more mundane abilities and more utility and flexibility to the existing skills would go a long way toward making them "just as fun" as mages.

The thing that really draws me to the magick skillset is how you can use the abilities you gain in all sorts of creative ways.

The mundane skillset is somewhat lacking in comparison, which is when you get the whole "ugh, mages can do everything better" mindset.

All that said, mages SHOULD be insanely powerful, which is why they have so many IC and OOC limitations placed on them.

Just that, when in days of yore, coders gave magick a lot of love, we haven't seen an equal amount of attention paid to coded abilities.

Make combat and weapon skills easier to skill up, period.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Delirium on October 17, 2015, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 17, 2015, 07:31:19 PM
I liked your first post better. I've updated my signature accordingly.

I was trying out that "not being snarky" thing... even though I know you can take it.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Dresan on October 17, 2015, 10:28:56 PM
The last time I had an enjoyable character was when Tuluk was still around. This is because tuluk/allanak were playing the others antagonist which inspired people( me included) to plot around it. This isn't about Tuluk though, its more about the lack of visible plots, antagonists and world narrative that further inspire smaller sub-plots. This game is exciting and incredibly fun when something big is going on, it doesn't have to be magickal either, but it does have to be big enough to make people wonder what will happen next.  Whether it be the closing of tuluk, the last HRPT, or any number of things.  

At the moment, I agree with much of what old kank had to say.  The world does feel stale however thinking back it always feels stale when there isn't anything visible and big going on.

Usually following a post like this there will be players and staff assuring me that there is a ton and tons of stuff going on, in every corner of the world. However, I don't see it, and I haven't seen any real exciting story-line/plot I felt I could get engaged in since the closing of tuluk. This is not to say there isn't something going on, but at this point in time I wish there was stuff going on that just smacked you in the face the moment you logged on. That engaged you whether you liked it or not. That effected your character and your survival. That basically makes the world come alive.

However, I also hear what the staff has said, doing grand things takes time, work and effort. Not to mention even if they do something, it only drives numbers up while they do it, but as soon as it ends, numbers go back down. I don't know what the solution is to this unfortunately. I wish there was some solution to this that was sustainable and didn't require constant work from a large group of staff members or months of investment time for players.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jihelu on October 17, 2015, 11:15:47 PM
Someone make a Dio Brando character and the problem is solved.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: In Dreams on October 17, 2015, 11:19:47 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 17, 2015, 07:56:12 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 06:31:30 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 17, 2015, 06:28:52 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2015, 05:35:49 PM
The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

Hardly. For example, even in 2005, people would come by the Vivaduan temple for water and healing and cures. That's extremely rare now. Then there was the Copper War, and Echri/Horiz, and Great Lord Samos and CAM and plenty else giving gemmed things to do and be back then. In fact, gemmed became too prevalent for the liking of some (thus the term 'X-men days').


I pointed out this time period in my post, and why using it as the platform for how to get mages involved is bad.

Edited out literally because I say it too much.  Also added here:  Likewise...those times were not 'increased clans accepting mages' as was the assertion.  That was a clan being made for mages, where they banded together, and became the primary resource of the templarate for pretty much any goal they could have, because again...mages make the mundane mostly useless, particularly in groups.

I wouldn't recommend playing a gemmed except as a flavour role in the current system.  I certainly wouldn't recommend playing a Vivaduan, Elkrosian, or Rukkian gemmed.  Drovians and Whirans do get some tasks, but even then it's not much.  It really isn't.

Vivaduans in particular are designed to work well with a mundane, but there are absolutely no mundanes that you can work with, within documentation.  On their own, Vivaduans have nothing going for them, and staff recognizes this: the big plotlines for Vivaduans are filling cisterns and wet mudsex in between long bouts of staring at the wall.  Every RL month or so, a templar or an Oash noble might ask you if you know a Whiran or a Drovian.

Current staff have also explicitly asked those who traditionally deal with the gemmed (templars and Oash and AoD) to not get gemmed involved in things (to put it mildly), and they also have explicitly told gemmed that they will not support 'high magickal' plotlines at this time.

Here's what I assume is the reasoning: magic is scary and dangerous and rare in Zalanthas.  Since, in terms of code, magic isn't actually scary or dangerous, the only way to make this work is to make it rare.  Unfortunately, this means that the gemmed will be excluded both ICly (obviously, and rightly) and OOCly (no plots, player-driven or staff-driven, no clan and so no OOC coordination for RPTs, no leadership).

Honestly, I always feel really really bad that I can't interact with gemmed PCs more. I regularly see some really interesting ones, and it pains me that I can't finagle more ways to get them involved or even just have my PC hold a conversation with them.

But then when I interact with them, I feel like I shouldn't be, because documents say my PC probably wouldn't.

I've honestly had no itch to ever play a gemmed magicker, just knowing it would probably be so very lonely.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 18, 2015, 01:57:12 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 17, 2015, 07:56:12 PM
Vivaduans in particular are designed to work well with a mundane, but there are absolutely no mundanes that you can work with, within documentation.  On their own, Vivaduans have nothing going for them, and staff recognizes this: the big plotlines for Vivaduans are filling cisterns and wet mudsex in between long bouts of staring at the wall.  Every RL month or so, a templar or an Oash noble might ask you if you know a Whiran or a Drovian.
No where is it documented that mundanes cannot work with Vivaduans.  The only thing that is documented is working with them is going to come with social and cultural consequences.  No one is saying that a mundane who buddies up with a Vivaduan is somehow a bad roleplayer and isn't following the documentation, as long as they understand the consequences. 

I have played numerous elementalist roles and I've done all kinds of tasks for people on the sly.  No, you won't get official work from anything but House Oash, but you very much can get work behind the scenes.

Quote from: nauta on October 17, 2015, 07:56:12 PM
Current staff have also explicitly asked those who traditionally deal with the gemmed (templars and Oash and AoD) to not get gemmed involved in things (to put it mildly), and they also have explicitly told gemmed that they will not support 'high magickal' plotlines at this time.

This isn't true in my experiences.  I've played as a Templar, in Oash, and in the AOD, and never have I been asked by staff not to include Gemmed in anything.  There are social consequences for including them ICly, and depending on the character I'm playing, that may or may not create a deterrent to bringing them in on a plot.  Because I like to play the norm, rather than the exception, I'll admit that the social consequences are often a deterrent for my mundane characters...but I've seen tons of exceptions in my years, and I've created tons of exceptions while playing Gemmed characters myself. 

Also, as I posted earlier in this thread, I've had "high magickal" plotlines approved within the last year.  All four of the staff request examples below were related to magick, with varying degrees of potency (the first is on par with what you might've seen in the CAM days).

Quote from: Wizturbo's earlier post
Third request - Requested a plot line to gain powerful, non-standard magickal abilities on top of a class that already has plenty of them.  I won't go into detail on this one, because it's ICly sensitive in nature. 
Verdict:  Shockingly....approved, but I was told up front it wouldn't be an overnight thing.  There were some staff-assisted animations of otherworldly entities to begin this plot line.  The pursuit of this plot went for a quite a while, and I never reached it's conclusion due to character death or storage.

Fourth request (still the same character) - Because request #3 was taking a while, I asked for an intermediary step towards my character's pursuit of otherworldly powers.
Verdict: Approved.  Plotline completed after a staff supported "quest" that involved my PC, and other PC's i dragged into it.  I did obtain the thing I was looking for... but be careful what you wish for kids... 

Fifth request- I planned an RPT for the clan to visit a remote location, and wanted staff support for it.
Verdict:  Approved.  Staff supported the RPT, spooky things happened there.  Those spooky things are still happening there today as far as I know.  The zone has been altered, perhaps permanently...we'll see?

Sixth request - A project in Allanak, that would create a new building, and a new type of coded service provided by one of the noble houses.
Verdict:  Approved, but hinted at a warning that this could have some unexpected consequences.  I was in the process of pursuing this, but it got cut short due to character death or storage.


Quote from: nauta on October 17, 2015, 07:56:12 PM
Here's what I assume is the reasoning: magic is scary and dangerous and rare in Zalanthas.  Since, in terms of code, magic isn't actually scary or dangerous, the only way to make this work is to make it rare.  Unfortunately, this means that the gemmed will be excluded both ICly (obviously, and rightly) and OOCly (no plots, player-driven or staff-driven, no clan and so no OOC coordination for RPTs, no leadership).

First off, magick is absurdly powerful and dangerous as is, right now, with no tweaks what so ever.  I mean completely overpoweredly dangerous.  Anyone who thinks otherwise, doesn't know enough about magick.

The reason there's encouragement ICly not to include magickers in primarily mundane plots and RPT's is that people are terrified of magickers.  The OOC reason is magick is so powerful it can quickly trivialize the challenge and excitement of that plot or RPT.

If you want magickal plots and RPT's, staff will be glad to support them in my experiences, as long as you're trying to keep the magick with the magickers.



Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 18, 2015, 02:04:56 AM
Quote from: In Dreams on October 17, 2015, 11:19:47 PM
Honestly, I always feel really really bad that I can't interact with gemmed PCs more. I regularly see some really interesting ones, and it pains me that I can't finagle more ways to get them involved or even just have my PC hold a conversation with them.

But then when I interact with them, I feel like I shouldn't be, because documents say my PC probably wouldn't.

I've honestly had no itch to ever play a gemmed magicker, just knowing it would probably be so very lonely.

If you have an itch to talk to a Gemmed, you just need to come up with good IC reasons why it's okay to do so.

Some examples:

1)  You have a disease (or someone close to you does).  Would your character risk the freaky mages in order to be cured?
2)  Have you fought beside one of these Gemmed in combat?   Being in combat situations creates bonds between people, and it's perfectly reasonable to extend the olive branch to a guy who might've saved the life of someone you care about, or yourself!
3)  Maybe your character doesn't walk the line like everyone else.  Allanak is not Tuluk.  Tuluki are born and bred to hate magick without exception.  Allanaki are not, but the stigma is certainly prevalent.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Beethoven on October 18, 2015, 02:19:40 AM
I agree with wizturbo, at least on the being friends with magickers thing. If there were no exceptions or to or ways to shift out of the 'everyone hates and avoids magick all the time' paradigm, there would be no ordinary people driven to pursue sorcery, to give one example. Your PC can interact with magickers; you just have to play it within the docs. Some people will probably call you a speshul snowflake, but in my mind as long as you're making an effort to portray a realistic product of your PC's environment, you're okay.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 18, 2015, 03:16:35 AM
To add:

If you see a gemmed at the bar next to you, there is nothing in the docs to mandate or even suggest that you need to run away screaming and or attack them on sight otherwise you're a bad role player.

There are innumerable ways you can interact with the gemmed which are all perfectly in line with the gameworld's theme and setting. Here's a few I've done over the years:


There is nothing about Allanaki culture that says you're not allowed to talk to the gemmed. Some people who really really really don't like them might feel that way, but other people might have a cousin who turned up gemmed. Or a best friend. Or a lover. Or a child. They are a strange second class citizen to be sure, but not a plague victim.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: ibusoe on October 18, 2015, 03:21:59 AM
Quote from: Beethoven on October 18, 2015, 02:19:40 AM
I agree with wizturbo, at least on the being friends with magickers thing. If there were no exceptions or to or ways to shift out of the 'everyone hates and avoids magick all the time' paradigm, there would be no ordinary people driven to pursue sorcery, to give one example. Your PC can interact with magickers; you just have to play it within the docs. Some people will probably call you a speshul snowflake, but in my mind as long as you're making an effort to portray a realistic product of your PC's environment, you're okay.

Once upon a time, I led the charge of people who shamed others for having mundane/mage cuddle parties.

Now I agree with you that people have made their point.  In my opinion, role play standards have risen to the point that people should not have as their primary concern that "Ewww, mages and mundanes should *never* talk to each other."

Besides the other helpful advice, I think there is a big difference between someone you'd associate with in public, and someone you'd associate with behind closed doors.  Associating with a mage?  There are plenty of people in real life who have a private interest in Santoria, would privately visit a psychic, would privately check their Horroscope.  The percentage of people who would do all of this in full view of their family or coworkers is much smaller.

Also, it's worth mentioning that just because you're interacting with people doesn't mean that you genuinely like them.  Let's say you were caught by the militia with a few hits of spice on you?  Shucks, why don't you blame it on a gemmer?  Blame them for selling it to you.  Even where mages and mundanes may reasonably associate with each other, one can imagine it wouldn't take much to get one side to turn on the other.  
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: ibusoe on October 18, 2015, 03:26:33 AM
I'll add that I think one factor to take into consideration, is how long has your character been in the game?

Here's the rule of thumb that I use for my characters, although I'm not proposing this as a standard that any one else should follow. 

My first (game) year of playing a character?  He's either a dirty city kid from the ghetto who is ignorant and supersitious, or else he's a stupid bumpking hayseed from some backwoods party of the wastelands.

After he's been in the game for a couple of years, he's travelled a bit, and learned something of the world.  Then he may be a little bit less reactionary when confronted with the unfamilar.

...of course he might wake up with a suspcious rash one day, unrelated to anything in particular, and simply choose to blame this on a mage.  You never really know, right?  Knife in the back would probably take care of everything.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 18, 2015, 04:31:18 AM
Quote from: ibusoe on October 18, 2015, 03:21:59 AM
Besides the other helpful advice, I think there is a big difference between someone you'd associate with in public, and someone you'd associate with behind closed doors.  Associating with a mage?  There are plenty of people in real life who have a private interest in Santoria, would privately visit a psychic, would privately check their Horroscope.  The percentage of people who would do all of this in full view of their family or coworkers is much smaller.

Yup.  Great point.  

Especially true for a world like Zalanthas, where magick is a real observable force.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Majikal on October 18, 2015, 05:15:05 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

I have the sudden urge to learn how to time travel in game and then via request place my pc in every cool and important scene on the player submissions page as a background character... yes...

(http://www.virginmedia.com/images/Fringe-puzzles-observe-the-observer-1-431x300.jpg)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jihelu on October 18, 2015, 02:17:13 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?
Because they didn't pre app it of course.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 18, 2015, 02:17:13 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?
Because they didn't pre app it of course.

Do you mean by putting it into the character application as a special note or something?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jihelu on October 18, 2015, 02:19:45 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 18, 2015, 02:17:13 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?
Because they didn't pre app it of course.

Do you mean by putting it into the character application as a special note or something?
I was just being pissy/sarcastic...
That seems to be all I do most of the time.

Idk really.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 18, 2015, 08:04:38 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

I tried looking for this through the request tool but couldn't find anything about it  ???
Maybe this rings a bell for another staff member who was involved.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Beethoven on October 18, 2015, 08:07:58 PM
I'm sad that we don't get to unlock secrets of the universe and commune with demons. I'm not going to lie, that stuff sounds awesome to me, even though it puts some people off.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Rokal on October 18, 2015, 08:09:30 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on October 18, 2015, 08:07:58 PM
I'm sad that we don't get to unlock secrets of the universe and commune with demons. I'm not going to lie, that stuff sounds awesome to me, even though it puts some people off.
I hear you.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 18, 2015, 08:18:07 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 08:04:38 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

I tried looking for this through the request tool but couldn't find anything about it  ???
Maybe this rings a bell for another staff member who was involved.

I know who it was.  Check out Character Report #61873.  It was a pymlithe.  I have no idea how Eyeball or anyone heard about it, unless they heard about it IG.


Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 18, 2015, 08:40:12 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 08:18:07 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 08:04:38 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 18, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

I tried looking for this through the request tool but couldn't find anything about it  ???
Maybe this rings a bell for another staff member who was involved.

I know who it was.  Check out Character Report #61873.  It was a pymlithe.  I have no idea how Eyeball or anyone heard about it, unless they heard about it IG.




Thanks for that. I read over it and to answer this:

Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

As one sees here:
Quote from: Chronology Help Filec.1629 (Year 12 Age 22)
Tensions flare between the common populace of Allanak and its minority gemmed population, which leads to riots and the eventual destruction of the elemental temples. Over the next couple of years, smaller and more subdued temples spring up in the Gemmed Quarter.

17 IG years ago to date the temples in the elemental quarter were destroyed in riots because the population at large was furious over what they perceived as the gemmed, who ought be second class citizens, living grand lives of luxury in their palace like elemental temples. The temple of vivadu used to have a very impressive garden on par with what one might glimpse over the high walls of the noble's quarter, but it was destroyed along with the temple during this uprising.

In the interest of preventing such massive civil unrest again, the Templarate has taken a dim view of the vivaduans trying to start another garden with exotic northern flora.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Dresan on October 18, 2015, 09:06:59 PM
 I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 18, 2015, 09:25:04 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 08:40:12 PM
17 IG years ago to date the temples in the elemental quarter were destroyed in riots because the population at large was furious over what they perceived as the gemmed, who ought be second class citizens, living grand lives of luxury in their palace like elemental temples.

I also failed a spot/giving-a-shit check when it came to preventing it. It had been a long weekend.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 18, 2015, 09:27:51 PM
Quote from: Dresan on October 18, 2015, 09:06:59 PM
I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

That is, for the record, how it was explained in our reply.

And a good example I think of how subtly the story can change as it makes its way from player to player "telephone game" style before it finally surfaces on the GDB.

"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice and staff told them no." -- sounds a lot different than,
"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice from a half-giant militia soldier at the gate and staff told them no."
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 18, 2015, 09:28:16 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 18, 2015, 09:25:04 PM
I also failed a spot/giving-a-shit check when it came to preventing it. It had been a long weekend.

See?  Blame BadSkeelz for why you can't have a tree in your water prison temple.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 18, 2015, 09:36:39 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 09:27:51 PM
Quote from: Dresan on October 18, 2015, 09:06:59 PM
I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

That is, for the record, how it was explained in our reply.

And a good example I think of how subtly the story can change as it makes its way from player to player "telephone game" style before it finally surfaces on the GDB.

"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice and staff told them no." -- sounds a lot different than,
"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice from a half-giant militia soldier at the gate and staff told them no."

For the record, I have no idea who Eyeball is, or how anyone heard about that, although it was a bit of a thing in game with wet witches.

But, no offence, he got the story basically right: a Vivaduan wanted to plant something in the Vivaduan temple and staff said 'no'.  He just got the kind of tree wrong.  

He also didn't know the (perfectly legitimate) reason why it was denied.  

It was a dumb example for his crusade.

Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)


Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 18, 2015, 09:40:58 PM
Sorry Nauta, my "telephone game" reference did make it sound like I was implying sharing IC information OOC'ly.

While that certainly happens, it can happen through IG information sharing as well.

I'm not accusing you or Eyeball of gossiping OOC'ly about IC information.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 18, 2015, 09:54:15 PM
Ah, you did some modifications to your post while I was replying.

In your case:

"I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza." -- sounds different from,
"I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a rare and exotic northern plymithe tree in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza shortly after there were riots over, among other things, the Vivaduan temple having a lush garden filled with rare and exotic flora.

Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 09:36:39 PM
Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)

Agafari is likewise, a northern tree (albeit less rare) so it might be questionable but the main thing to keep in mind is that the "garden" of the post-riot Vivaduan temple should stay low key enough that it isn't going to draw the ire of the general population. Rare, exotic, or particularly lush "out of place in the middle of the desert" plants are probably going to get some stinkeye from the City Ministry and be seen as the gemmed trying to wiggle back up above their station.

Some of the more humble of the native southern flora: much more doable as is already portrayed by the room description of the Vivaduan temple entrance.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 09:55:00 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 09:36:39 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 09:27:51 PM
Quote from: Dresan on October 18, 2015, 09:06:59 PM
I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

That is, for the record, how it was explained in our reply.

And a good example I think of how subtly the story can change as it makes its way from player to player "telephone game" style before it finally surfaces on the GDB.

"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice and staff told them no." -- sounds a lot different than,
"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice from a half-giant militia soldier at the gate and staff told them no."

For the record, I have no idea who Eyeball is, or how anyone heard about that, although it was a bit of a thing in game with wet witches.

But, no offence, he got the story basically right: a Vivaduan wanted to plant something in the Vivaduan temple and staff said 'no'.  He just got the kind of tree wrong.  

He also didn't know the (perfectly legitimate) reason why it was denied.  

It was a dumb example for his crusade.

Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)




I didn't know I was crusading. In any case, it's a useful example. I could argue this case by itself, pointing out how the path before the temple is a glory of plant life, how pots were placed in the Vivaduan temple to... stay empty? etc. but in the end the staff made its ruling and that's that. So I won't.

What I will point out is the underlying message: 'gemmed can have nothing nice; it will never be approved because second-class etc.'. I can combine that with a message my gemmed have received, namely 'helping the city will not be allowed; people are scared of magick even if it's used to help the fields grow or to turn urine into water for growing crops'.

Are these messages reasonable within the context? Yes, I'm not saying they are not. Do they demonstrate how the gemmed are trapped and marginalized in terms of doing things? Add in a few more similar messages and I think they do.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jihelu on October 18, 2015, 10:01:58 PM
If I can't go back in time can I go forward.
Wake me up in twenty years.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Lizzie on October 18, 2015, 10:02:49 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 09:55:00 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 09:36:39 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 09:27:51 PM
Quote from: Dresan on October 18, 2015, 09:06:59 PM
I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

That is, for the record, how it was explained in our reply.

And a good example I think of how subtly the story can change as it makes its way from player to player "telephone game" style before it finally surfaces on the GDB.

"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice and staff told them no." -- sounds a lot different than,
"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice from a half-giant militia soldier at the gate and staff told them no."

For the record, I have no idea who Eyeball is, or how anyone heard about that, although it was a bit of a thing in game with wet witches.

But, no offence, he got the story basically right: a Vivaduan wanted to plant something in the Vivaduan temple and staff said 'no'.  He just got the kind of tree wrong.  

He also didn't know the (perfectly legitimate) reason why it was denied.  

It was a dumb example for his crusade.

Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)




I didn't know I was crusading. In any case, it's a useful example. I could argue this case by itself, pointing out how the path before the temple is a glory of plant life, how pots were placed in the Vivaduan temple to... stay empty? etc. but in the end the staff made its ruling and that's that. So I won't.

What I will point out is the underlying message: 'gemmed can have nothing nice; it will never be approved because second-class etc.'. I can combine that with a message my gemmed have received, namely 'helping the city will not be allowed; people are scared of magick even if it's used to help the fields grow or to turn urine into water for growing crops'.

Are these messages reasonable within the context? Yes, I'm not saying they are not. Do they demonstrate how the gemmed are trapped and marginalized in terms of doing things? Add in a few more similar messages and I think they do.

Your perception is not my experience. Since it's recent (within the last year) I won't give any more information than that. But - your examples are not based on "fact." They're based on your limited perception of things, which might or might not have any basis in fact, at all.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 18, 2015, 10:10:46 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 09:55:00 PM
Are these messages reasonable within the context? Yes, I'm not saying they are not. Do they demonstrate how the gemmed are trapped and marginalized in terms of doing things? Add in a few more similar messages and I think they do.

I'm about to start getting some RL work done but I wanted to chime in with one last thing on this.

Yes. The gemmed are trapped and marginalized. Physically. Socially. Politically. That's their role within the culture of the Allanaki city state.
They are physically trapped by the gems they are forced to wear.
They are socially trapped by the population's distrust of magic.
They are politically trapped by the design of the government that bars them by law from holding any position of power or authority.

This is what you sign up for when you elect to play a gemmed mage in Allanak. It's the price you pay for the safety you receive. The mages who refuse to be bound in such a fashion either hide their gift or go rouge. It's a big part of our game's setting.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 10:13:14 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 10:10:46 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 09:55:00 PM
Are these messages reasonable within the context? Yes, I'm not saying they are not. Do they demonstrate how the gemmed are trapped and marginalized in terms of doing things? Add in a few more similar messages and I think they do.

I'm about to start getting some RL work done but I wanted to chime in with one last thing on this.

Yes. The gemmed are trapped and marginalized. Physically. Socially. Politically. That's their role within the culture of the Allanaki city state.
They are physically trapped by the gems they are forced to wear.
They are socially trapped by the population's distrust of magic.
They are politically trapped by the design of the government that bars them by law from holding any position of power or authority.

This is what you sign up for when you elect to play a gemmed mage in Allanak. It's the price you pay for the safety you receive. The mages who refuse to be bound in such a fashion either hide their gift or go rouge. It's a big part of our game's setting.

So the answer is, that's how things are and they're not going to change, despite some requests that have appeared here for more to do? So be it, at least we understand that now.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 18, 2015, 10:33:37 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 09:55:00 PM
I didn't know I was crusading. In any case, it's a useful example. I could argue this case by itself, pointing out how the path before the temple is a glory of plant life, how pots were placed in the Vivaduan temple to... stay empty? etc. but in the end the staff made its ruling and that's that. So I won't.

You have a point here. I'm going to toss it onto the staff board and see if the path before the temple needs to be dressed down to sport more modest flora or if there is some other reason for why it's been allowed to stay so ... green and lush.

Quote from: Eyeball on October 18, 2015, 10:13:14 PM
So the answer is, that's how things are and they're not going to change, despite some requests that have appeared here for more to do? So be it, at least we understand that now.

I think we might be making some mistaken assumptions about one another's meaning.

My core position, and I dare say staff's and probably the majority playerbase's core position is not: Mages should not be allowed to have things to do.
Rather, it is: Mages should have things to do that fit within the game's setting.

You might think that this means, for example: Then I can never play a mage who serves in the military because they won't let mages in any military clans.

But that's not exactly true. It means you can never play a mage who is openly a mage in the military with a dust cloak on your back, jade emblazoned sword in one hand and fireball in the other.

But the door is still open for you to play as a secret mage trying to hide their gift within a military clan, or as a mage who places a large emphasis on soldier's training for himself and tries to volunteer for service any chance he gets.

You might think that this means: I can never play a mage who becomes the leader of a MMH.

But that's not exactly true either. You can never play a mage who is openly a mage and walks around as your organization's figurehead.

But the door is still open for you to again play as a secret mage, or a behind the scenes actor who operates as a silent partner out of necessity and hires a front man to pose as a figurehead.

History is littered with examples of second class citizens who were forced by circumstance to find creative work arounds to the barriers placed upon them by the societies they were operating in. And we on staff will fully support any player attempting to follow in these footsteps.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 18, 2015, 11:14:24 PM
Just to comment here (since I got drawn in) -- my view remains that the gemmed are and probably should be mere flavour roles.  But!

Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 10:33:37 PM
You might think that this means, for example: Then I can never play a mage who serves in the military because they won't let mages in any military clans.

But that's not exactly true. It means you can never play a mage who is openly a mage in the military with a dust cloak on your back, jade emblazoned sword in one hand and fireball in the other.

But the door is still open for you to play as a secret mage trying to hide their gift within a military clan, or as a mage who places a large emphasis on soldier's training for himself and tries to volunteer for service any chance he gets.

A gemmed couldn't do the former, and he's talking about the gemmed; as for the latter, I do like the idea of the gemmed who just doesn't 'get it' and keeps asking His Arm if he can come with them, heh.  But, yeah, the gemmed will get rejected, again and again.  So those aren't really viable roles.  I've seen quite a few gemmed come in with just that concept and they end up storing.

Quote
You might think that this means: I can never play a mage who becomes the leader of a MMH.

But that's not exactly true either. You can never play a mage who is openly a mage and walks around as your organization's figurehead.

But the door is still open for you to again play as a secret mage, or a behind the scenes actor who operates as a silent partner out of necessity and hires a front man to pose as a figurehead.

History is littered with examples of second class citizens who were forced by circumstance to find creative work arounds to the barriers placed upon them by the societies they were operating in. And we on staff will fully support any player attempting to follow in these footsteps.

The PCs that work for the gemmed would be playing exceptions to the rule, which is a bit of a worry.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Erythil on October 18, 2015, 11:21:30 PM
I feel like there's a certain balance to be struck here.  The Allanaki templarate seems to draw a large portion of its power and battlefield supremacy from the gemmed, so they don't want to make their lives so miserable that no one would agree to -be- gemmed.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 18, 2015, 11:35:04 PM
"A place to live where you're not at constant risk of being hunted down, killed and eaten" is the luxury that the Templarate gives to its Gemmed. "Freedom to have a garden" is noble-level privileges and not something most common-born magickers will be thinking of.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 19, 2015, 12:18:40 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 11:14:24 PM
A gemmed couldn't do the former, and he's talking about the gemmed

Point taken, yes a gemmed mage cannot be a secret mage.

Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 11:14:24 PM
The PCs that work for the gemmed would be playing exceptions to the rule, which is a bit of a worry.

This is actually not true though. You are not playing an exception to the rule if you play a character who works/associates with, likes, or even loves one of the gemmed.
You are playing an exception to the rule if you play a mundane character who carte blanche has no issues with magic or those who use it.

The devil is in the details.

Someone IRL might really dislike gay people for whatever reason, and then meet someone he quite likes who also turns out to be gay. Does he stop hating gay people immediately? Of course not. He compartmentalizes. He justifies that this one particular gay person is ok because -- reasons. He still gets really uncomfortable when the topic of sexuality comes up or he's confronted with it, but over all he manages to square that circle in his mind for this one guy, while still generally feeling dislike for the group as a whole.

If you're role playing your character's intimate association with a gemmed this way, then you aren't playing an exception to the rule at all you're playing right in line with the documentation and keeping the spirit of the game's theme alive & healthy.

In fact, if you want to play a bleeding heart liberal who thinks everyone was created equal and love and puppies and rainbows for all -- look honestly I personally think it's kind of lame and special snowflake like; but so long as you keep those cards close to your chest and do a good job of portraying how your character is painfully aware of how much of an unacceptable minority opinion their thoughts are, then I've got no issues with that either.

I think there is a lot of potential for nuance that gets lost in this false dichotomy of: You are either 100% ok with all mages and magic and wrong or you are 100% against all mages and magic and right.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Rokal on October 19, 2015, 01:18:35 AM
Quote from: Jave on October 19, 2015, 12:18:40 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 11:14:24 PM
A gemmed couldn't do the former, and he's talking about the gemmed

Point taken, yes a gemmed mage cannot be a secret mage.

Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 11:14:24 PM
The PCs that work for the gemmed would be playing exceptions to the rule, which is a bit of a worry.

This is actually not true though. You are not playing an exception to the rule if you play a character who works/associates with, likes, or even loves one of the gemmed.
You are playing an exception to the rule if you play a mundane character who carte blanche has no issues with magic or those who use it.

The devil is in the details.

Someone IRL might really dislike gay people for whatever reason, and then meet someone he quite likes who also turns out to be gay. Does he stop hating gay people immediately? Of course not. He compartmentalizes. He justifies that this one particular gay person is ok because -- reasons. He still gets really uncomfortable when the topic of sexuality comes up or he's confronted with it, but over all he manages to square that circle in his mind for this one guy, while still generally feeling dislike for the group as a whole.

If you're role playing your character's intimate association with a gemmed this way, then you aren't playing an exception to the rule at all you're playing right in line with the documentation and keeping the spirit of the game's theme alive & healthy.

In fact, if you want to play a bleeding heart liberal who thinks everyone was created equal and love and puppies and rainbows for all -- look honestly I personally think it's kind of lame and special snowflake like; but so long as you keep those cards close to your chest and do a good job of portraying how your character is painfully aware of how much of an unacceptable minority opinion their thoughts are, then I've got no issues with that either.

I think there is a lot of potential for nuance that gets lost in this false dichotomy of: You are either 100% ok with all mages and magic and wrong or you are 100% against all mages and magic and right.

This bolded part here. I see that theres a major issue with this in the ic sense - there is no middle ground. It happens a little, here and there, in my experience, but when a gemmer can't even talk to someone without getting threatened in public (Who would do that in public?) then say the templarate would probably reward them for carrying out said threat, it seems . .very unlike Zalanthas. Gemmers are scary, if that gemmer gives you the evil eye, you're bound to be cursed, piss one off?  Who knows what could happen.., and they're probably more useful to the templarate then amos the grebber and hunter..so why make those threats?.. but at the same time, there are those who would still put them to use. Out of desperation, discreetly, or otherwise.

Adding: Also, from a gemmer's  (or a non-gemmed, even) point of a view, a good gemmer generally wants to avoid causing trouble with people, and most gemmers grew up with the same life mundanes had, so they generally are still very much like people that are mundanes! they just have magick that sets them apart. Magick doesn't nessescaily mean they're personality is any different. They're typical people having to adapt to a life changing event when it comes to their manifestation, and while many eventually grow comfortable with their magick, they're still probably going to be unhappy about it, after all. You're suddenly the black sheep within your group of social friends.. or you suddenly have no friends. Or Might not even have a family.  They just make do with their lives as they can, but most gemmers have lost more then they've gained, in their own personal view.  (This is my opinon  on it, anyway :) )

Theres a middling ground here. While mundanes should never truly be 100% okay with magick , unless for extreme reasons, theres going to be people that have experienced it. Maybe your character's father was extremely sick or wounded and only a vivaduan could save them. THat would change ones opinon of magick. Maybe a Krathi blasted a scrab to ash that was about rip your head off your shoulders..heck, it doesnt even need to involve magick. Simple actions a persons takes while wearing that gem could effect someones view of them.

Im not saying that gemmers need more things to do. I'm just saying that it seems like the playerbase is playing on one far end of the extreme, or most of it. and from that, gemmers WOULD have more things to do, and no, it wouldn't 'invalidate' or make mundane's 'useless'

I mean..if you take a look in the Vivadu temple, it even shows that theres possibly mundanes -actively- there. Seeking healing for wounds or illness (Thats what it seemed like to me, anyway!). Theres even a few mundane NPCs that wander the mage quarter.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Bast on October 19, 2015, 01:54:34 AM
You know..there is a difference (or should be) between Tuluk's view on magick and Nak's. Also I can manage an epic table game thats as fun for the thief and the fighter as it for the casters in the party. Magick plots can involve mundanes..Mundanes plots -should- involve magickers too. Mages are a high karma class. Its a reward and a sign of trust it shouldn't be a punishment. Mages shouldn't be left to sit around with their thumbs up their asses while city wide plots include everyone but them. OOC dislike and IC dislike of the magicker classes should not mesh together. Arm seriously has the coolest magick system I've ever seen in a mud and really unless you make your things up to do you get excluded from practically everything for playing one. I highly dislike how oocly -anti-magick- some of the players are. If its not your thing fine..don't piss all over everyone else. Some players like myself who have been playing this game for over decade now enjoy that part of the game. I have more fun with magickers than I have any other class in the game hands down. That's including spending 2 real life years playing a pc that never walked into city in more recent times of no plots for mages. We get it some of you hate that there is a fantasy element of the game. Screaming loudly every 4 weeks about why you hate it so much is really unfair. I don't have a fit because there are thieves in the game and god damn it do I hate getting robbed! Or killed by assassin with a back stab without so much as a emote or any clue why. Yes people that know the magick system can do insanely cool things that sometimes seem over powered but I've seen bad ass magickers go down but some twink assassin decided to go on a killing magicker spree 'just because'. Honestly I am at point that every time I am attacked at seemingly random  by mudane with a mage (and it tends to happen often) a little part of me is assuming its because the player hates magickers oocly.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Bast on October 19, 2015, 02:04:05 AM
On topic I miss plotlines that included mage pcs. I also miss having more plots going on over all. Staff has picked back up and its gotten better but I would like to see more. I do not miss the magickal reach/item give aways or the PC Vampires that couldn't be killed without staff even you were the one class that should have been able to burn/dispel them into bits. I do wish we had some more interesting or perhaps darker bad guys out there again though. Never anything as op as some of the stuff we used to have running around but I think some more highly intelligent threats would be interesting. They provide realistic villain support as well.

I also miss halflings...I never will forget the first time I met a Templar in game and he had some rabid Halfling slave on leash. Pretty sure it was a pc slave and it totally tried to bite my face off until the Templar emoted yanking the leash back and sending the halfling flying. I wish we had more races.  :P

P.S also Kanks

P.S.S Also Coffee
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 19, 2015, 02:20:34 AM
Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 09:54:15 PM
Ah, you did some modifications to your post while I was replying.

In your case:

"I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza." -- sounds different from,
"I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a rare and exotic northern plymithe tree in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza shortly after there were riots over, among other things, the Vivaduan temple having a lush garden filled with rare and exotic flora.

Quote from: nauta on October 18, 2015, 09:36:39 PM
Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)

Agafari is likewise, a northern tree (albeit less rare) so it might be questionable but the main thing to keep in mind is that the "garden" of the post-riot Vivaduan temple should stay low key enough that it isn't going to draw the ire of the general population. Rare, exotic, or particularly lush "out of place in the middle of the desert" plants are probably going to get some stinkeye from the City Ministry and be seen as the gemmed trying to wiggle back up above their station.

Some of the more humble of the native southern flora: much more doable as is already portrayed by the room description of the Vivaduan temple entrance.

Sorry, this kept bothering me.

Eyeball's claim was that:

(a) "I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza [recently]."

which sounds the same as:

(b) "I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a pymlithe tree in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza [recently]."

The bit that you appended to (b) about the riots and whatnot to make it look like he was getting it all wrong and being way off base actually could be appended to (a) as well.

I suppose you could fight the merits of agafari vs. pymlithe in the rarities department, but, yeah - (a) and (b) are prrrrretty similar.

Anyway, I've always been fine with the decision itself -- I guess I'm just pointing out that you were being a bit unfair there to Eyeball.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Dresan on October 19, 2015, 02:57:24 AM
Moving away from mundane vs mages threads....

You know for a while now the only time we seem to these visible plot lines when the staff want to make some major upcoming changes to the game and want it to make sense IC. The last HRPT brought in alot of changes, the same for the closing of tuluk, and the opening of claypits.

This isn't a bad thing but I think the game could benefit from some more storyline, that maybe only bring virtual changes.

I'll give you an example off the top of my head:

ACT 1: The fall of Sorcerer King of Allanak. (Would take about two months or so to complete in RL)

It would all start with a large explosion that originates at the top Tek's tower. The sound would be deafening and it would signal the end of the Tek.

Rumours begin trickling down that the black robes banded together to bring down the sorcerer king, the death of the sorcerer king and the release of all that power brings fluctuations in the world. The story-tellers are given a bit more freedom to make things spooky and strange for a week or two.

Time passes and everything calms down but it seems that the black robes are beginning to fight against each other politically, two councils are formed and a civil war breaks out between them. The red robes are split forcing the miltia to do the same. The nobility must choose sides and need to win the support of not only merchant houses but also civilians, since its a numbers game and they might need large armies in case civial war does break out. The more numbers the less likely the militia on the side of the opposing council will do something rash or attack.

More time passes and we are starting to see the city and its population practically begin splitting in two. Kurac has made some deals with some templar and nobility, allowing them to push spice on the street again, much to the displeasure of the opposing council. As soldiers begin watching each other crime increases, and it isn't uncommon to see opposing units fighting against each other. Not only militia but neighbor against neighbor, even brother agaisnt brother.

Finally in a spectacular show of force one side wins, and a new council is formed. This could have gone either way, but it could be mostly dependant on what the players might have been doing to help their faction while weakening the other, causing demoralization on one side for example and given the other a slight edge.  The nobility on the losing side would lose prestige and fall in status a bit, while the winning side would increase in status and rank. The red robes would be brought in line and everything would go back to normal for a little bit. Until its discovered that Tuluk has been trying to take advantage of the situation, and there are several thousand soldiers camped out in the salt flats....

ACT2: Tuluk attempts to attack a disorganized allanak(another two months to complete)

....to be continued...


And the stories continue, with players getting involved directly with them, or plotting around them trying to accomplish their own goals, or getting tramped as they try to just live their lives. No grand changes code-wise since the changes that occur would be virtual, but still very profound in terms of setting, it just needs just some creativing global emotes here and there as a story is told. Again this is just a quick example, with much more brainstorming I'm sure a better narrative can be created, that doesn't need too much coded work, just some creative minds to tell a story.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 03:49:33 AM
Quote from: Bast on October 19, 2015, 02:04:05 AM
On topic I miss plotlines that included mage pcs. I also miss having more plots going on over all. Staff has picked back up and its gotten better but I would like to see more. I do not miss the magickal reach/item give aways or the PC Vampires that couldn't be killed without staff even you were the one class that should have been able to burn/dispel them into bits. I do wish we had some more interesting or perhaps darker bad guys out there again though. Never anything as op as some of the stuff we used to have running around but I think some more highly intelligent threats would be interesting. They provide realistic villain support as well.

I also miss halflings...I never will forget the first time I met a Templar in game and he had some rabid Halfling slave on leash. Pretty sure it was a pc slave and it totally tried to bite my face off until the Templar emoted yanking the leash back and sending the halfling flying. I wish we had more races.  :P


I agree with all of this, except I personally would like to see more of the esoteric parts of the magick code be unlocked in rare circumstances.   If it's done properly, it only adds to the setting.  Magick goes all the way from starting spells (1) to Sorcerer-King level (1000).  If the PC magick cap without staff intervention is about 30 right now, I don't see why we can't let it go to 35 or 40 once in a while.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 03:58:43 AM
I want more magick plots that end in me smashing magickers' fingers with a hammer for like 2 RL hours. Good times.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 19, 2015, 04:24:24 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 02:20:34 AM
Sorry, this kept bothering me.

Eyeball's claim was that:

(a) "I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza [recently]."

which sounds the same as:

(b) "I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a pymlithe tree in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza [recently]."

The bit that you appended to (b) about the riots and whatnot to make it look like he was getting it all wrong and being way off base actually could be appended to (a) as well.

I suppose you could fight the merits of agafari vs. pymlithe in the rarities department, but, yeah - (a) and (b) are prrrrretty similar.

Anyway, I've always been fine with the decision itself -- I guess I'm just pointing out that you were being a bit unfair there to Eyeball.


???

Maybe I'm not grokking this correctly but I'm confused by what you wrote. I'm not sure in what way you think I was being unfair.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: manonfire on October 19, 2015, 06:27:37 AM
Look at all this red-tape bureaucratic bullshit over a player trying to add something simple to the game.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jingo on October 19, 2015, 06:42:01 AM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 03:58:43 AM
I want more magick plots that end in me smashing magickers' fingers with a hammer for like 2 RL hours. Good times.

With magick hammers?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 19, 2015, 09:18:28 AM
Quote from: manonfire on October 19, 2015, 06:27:37 AM
Look at all this red-tape bureaucratic bullshit over a player trying to add something simple to the game.

Player Dude just wants to try and grow a fucking tree. Instead of just telling them "no!", Newbie Staff #51512412 tries to confuse poor Player Dude until they drop the idea and go back to mudsexxxing the fine ladies of the Gaj and leave Staff alone heheh
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: manonfire on October 19, 2015, 09:22:47 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/xgz9nkR.gif)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 19, 2015, 09:32:11 AM
If Player Dude's Armageddon dream is to try and grow a tree, just let them do it! That's what Armageddon used to be all about.

Now how society reacts to that tree growing up in the middle of the Viv temple is Staff's job and they get to decide if that tree will end up causing massive population riots or will just die three weeks later because it's an exotic seed missing some sort of key nutrients. Or maybe a Templar will just walk in and take out his frustration on that poor little tree.

But trying to convince a player that his idea is not a good one because this and that MIGHT happen, or because it "doesn't fit" or isn't "realistic" is a big bummer - Don't tell players what they can or cannot do (unless it's really out of this world retarded), just let them do what they want and then REACT to it.

I mean, come on!
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Bast on October 19, 2015, 09:32:42 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 03:49:33 AM
Quote from: Bast on October 19, 2015, 02:04:05 AM
On topic I miss plotlines that included mage pcs. I also miss having more plots going on over all. Staff has picked back up and its gotten better but I would like to see more. I do not miss the magickal reach/item give aways or the PC Vampires that couldn't be killed without staff even you were the one class that should have been able to burn/dispel them into bits. I do wish we had some more interesting or perhaps darker bad guys out there again though. Never anything as op as some of the stuff we used to have running around but I think some more highly intelligent threats would be interesting. They provide realistic villain support as well.

I also miss halflings...I never will forget the first time I met a Templar in game and he had some rabid Halfling slave on leash. Pretty sure it was a pc slave and it totally tried to bite my face off until the Templar emoted yanking the leash back and sending the halfling flying. I wish we had more races.  :P


I agree with all of this, except I personally would like to see more of the esoteric parts of the magick code be unlocked in rare circumstances.   If it's done properly, it only adds to the setting.  Magick goes all the way from starting spells (1) to Sorcerer-King level (1000).  If the PC magick cap without staff intervention is about 30 right now, I don't see why we can't let it go to 35 or 40 once in a while.

Some of the Reaches aren't that game breaking in my opinion but I don't think everyone would agree with me. I would like to see one them pop up once in while but you really can't conversation about it without getting too much into the realm of game things that should stay IC knowledge.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Delirium on October 19, 2015, 09:50:07 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 09:32:11 AM
If Player Dude's Armageddon dream is to try and grow a tree, just let them do it! That's what Armageddon used to be all about.

Now how society reacts to that tree growing up in the middle of the Viv temple is Staff's job and they get to decide if that tree will end up causing massive population riots or will just die three weeks later because it's an exotic seed missing some sort of key nutrients. Or maybe a Templar will just walk in and take out his frustration on that poor little tree.

But trying to convince a player that his idea is not a good one because this and that MIGHT happen, or because it "doesn't fit" or isn't "realistic" is a big bummer - Don't tell players what they can or cannot do (unless it's really out of this world retarded), just let them do what they want and then REACT to it.

I mean, come on!

Yes. I remember trying to plant a tree as part of a minor plot to try and impress the Akei for Reasons, (in a much more reasonable location, I admit) with a PC way back in... 2003? 2004? and was told "sure, just keep us updated with some logs!" Nothing about whether I would succeed or fail, but I was at least allowed to try, gosh darn it. I mean, I'm pretty sure the whole thing was just because the elf was testing my PC and/or trying to get my PC killed, but that's beside the point.... the point is, my character was allowed to try.

Unfortunately I got pulled into other plots and had to drop the whole tree idea, but being told "it won't work" from the get-go would have just been discouraging.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 10:21:41 AM
I'm a little sad (but not surprised) that it needs to be said, but the player attempting to grow a tree wasn't explicitly told no. There was still room to make the attempt to try - however, staff told them what the PC might expect to happen if they did try. I will not get into it further since this only happened 6 months ago, but I will reiterate that the PC was never prevented from attempting to do this, and if the player went to re-read the response they got from staff at the time, they would see that. Staff exist to support the players, and sometimes that involves a little foreshadowing. And within reason, it almost never involves outright rejection. Staff respond to reports in the context of a higher power, a vNPC or NPC that the PC reports to. Listening to this higher power or not is the PC's choice, always.

The reason why I'm not surprised is because discontented players over the years have spent their time poisoning the well, and unfortunately it has grown and grown. It started with private forms of communication and culminated with places like jcarter's board, which allows for one-sided storytelling in an echo chamber and no room for a defense of or response from staff. The end result is that some people read into a staff response and read what they want to see - red tape, rejection, hostility - when it isn't always, and is in fact almost never there. While some of the criticism is fair and we work to build off of that criticism and improve from it, a lot of it (as well as the sudden assumptions, the attempts at reading between the lines of staff responses, the blanket attacks on staff) is unfair and untrue. More players would see that if they judged staff on their own experiences rather than what someone else has to say about their own.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 10:44:05 AM
When I DM I always look at my player's requests from the vantage point of:

"How can I make this happen for them?"

That's the very first thing I consider.

If my answer is ever:

"No, you can't do that."

Then I feel like I have failed them as a creative and fun DM.

That doesn't mean I don't turn right around if what they have done is silly or stupid and come back the next gaming session with:

"Ok, you wanted to plant a rare ironwood tree in the magical soil you brought back from the shore of a nymph's pond to try and make a super ironwood tree? Well I have bad news for you my man. The seed did grow...it grew super fast...also, the tree is now sentient and is terrorizing the town where you have your little home...and the town blames you. Now you have some issues to deal with...."

I know staffing things in Armageddon is a million times more difficult than me DM'ing a tabletop campaign, but I think they should both be done within the same spirit of fun.

If at any time you get told, "No, that is impossible for you to even attempt.", whatever you are attempting had better be on par with trying to summon comets of steel out of space to crush Tek's tower.

The other end of that I suppose is, "Do we have enough staff with enough "at the ready power" (meaning they don't need four levels of approval to make minor reactions to people's actions happen in game) to make things happen like this more easily."?

Maybe we need to see about putting more power in the hands of the Storytellers if that is the case. If they have to go to a Producer to get approval to have three thugs steal some magicker's rare tree seedling out of his pot in his temple...I think we have an issue there.

Or...

Maybe we give the guy his little tree seedling. Nobody gives a shit. Someone makes a note somewhere saying that there is now a little tree in this pot....and life goes on with one player feeling awesome about himself over something that...let's be realistic here...doesn't make any difference to anyone but that player in the gameworld. Then when the player dies...his tree dies because nobody is there taking special care of it. End storyline. End tree. End the existence of butthurt over nothing-plots.

I feel like personally a lot of efforts are taken at times by staff to squish the motivations and attempts of players on a staff level. I don't think they do it in the spirit of, "We hate the players don't let them do anything.". I think we have a sort of social disease here where we equate, "Armageddon is Hardcore!!!" to "How do I put obstacles and hurdles in your path!" instead of "How do I help you build ladders to success?".

I don't think everyone should just have everything handed to them with no effort. But, I do think some animations sometimes could be geared towards helping PC's with their goals instead of them seemingly always being about presenting an obstacle, hurdle, or roadblock.

Maybe that's just my own experience. I have gotten a lot of staff animations over the years and they are always fun, but there is no denying the majority of them have been geared towards presenting me with problems, hurdles, and obstacles with many of them being no-win situations. I'm trying to think of one where an animation happened where someone came to me and said, "Here, I'm on your side and I'm going to help you make this happen."...I can't really think of one. The best I can do on that front is present a couple of instances where at BEST the animation wasn't about stopping me or harming my progress and was neutral in nature with no tangible meaningful assistance being offered either.

It has somewhat made me terrified of getting staff animations because I've got a trigger-reflex in regards to them now that says, "Ok, how am I going to be dicked this time.".

For some levity, I can count four times I've been shit on...I mean that literally...shit on by creatures or people. Puked on twice.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 10:47:30 AM
Again, the player wasn't told "No, you can't do that". There was also no need for a Storyteller to have to go to a Producer to get approval for something in this case. This was a case of the Storyteller giving a warning about the thugs, so to speak, rather than saying no explicitly.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 10:53:17 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 10:47:30 AM
Again, the player wasn't told "No, you can't do that". There was also no need for a Storyteller to have to go to a Producer to get approval for something in this case. This was a case of the Storyteller giving a warning about the thugs, so to speak, rather than saying no explicitly.

I'm just using it as an example. I don't really care about that specific instance. Replace "growing a tree" with "building a mud hut" and the point of my overall post is the same.

Also, I edited it. (Sorry for the ghost-edit, I did it while you were writing this message.)

But for this specific instance...why don't we let the guy grow his tree and let the thugs come after with zero warning?

A staffer telling me, "Yeah you can try that but just so you know...if you try it...well, you might not like what happens."

Unfortunately for most players translates into:

"You can try this but staff is going to squash it on you so don't even try.".

I see the difference, but that doesn't change the reality. Perhaps there should be a change in policy that negative foreshadowing be avoided where at all possible and instead negative consequences only present themselves when they do in fact present themselves.

I know if I try something and a staffer tells me, "Yeah, you could try that, but just so you know...if you try it...bad things and failure loom with a wave of my omnipotent staff-hand."....I would also feel like I was being told by staff, "We will kill this before you even get it off the ground. You will fail because you can't fight staff.".
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Delirium on October 19, 2015, 11:06:49 AM
It's less whether you're allowed to even attempt it (well, ain't nobody can stop you from trying) and more the context of the response.

"Sure, go ahead and keep us updated!" sounds a lot better than "Sure, but it probably won't work because of x and y and we'll be enforcing the gamworld" has two very different messages. One is supportive, the other comes across like you're lecturing the player and preparing them for the inevitable failure of what they're trying to do.

Which kills enthusiasm from the start.

It's a lot more fun to try and do something, and run into some staff-enforced hijinks along the way, but feel as if you do have a chance at succeeding (as long as what you're attempting is reasonable) than to feel like no matter what you do, you're doomed to failure, and the cake is and always will be a lie.

make sense?

edit: I see this was already touched on in the posts above. So yeah, the point is - if it's not a wildly unreasonable request, letting the players win now and then would be nice. So often, what you run into is "if I involve staff in this, I am going to suffer horribly and everything I try to do will have huge consequences, and I will not win." And that's not from OOC gossip or listening to other people talk, it's from my own personal experience. Staff are eager to jump in and that's cool, but when it's largely negative, it's hard to keep trying.

I think if staff looked on themselves as "plot supporters" more so than "world enforcers", that perspective tweak might help regain the trust of much-burned players.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 11:09:04 AM
Quote from: Delirium on October 19, 2015, 11:06:49 AM
It's less whether you're allowed to even attempt it (well, ain't nobody can stop you from trying) and more the context of the response.

"Sure, go ahead and keep us updated!" sounds a lot better than "Sure, but it probably won't work because of x and y and we'll be enforcing the gamworld" has two very different messages. One is supportive, the other comes across like you're lecturing the player and preparing them for the inevitable failure of what they're trying to do.

Which kills enthusiasm from the start.

It's a lot more fun to try and do something, and run into some staff-enforced hijinks along the way, but feel as if you do have a chance at succeeding (as long as what you're attempting is reasonable) than to feel like no matter what you do, you're doomed to failure, and the cake is and always will be a lie.

make sense?

Yeah, this is what I meant. She just said my thing with less rambling.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
Sure, but the flip-side of that is the player making the attempt to plot after being told "go ahead and keep us updated!" and then becoming disappointed when it fails without warning after a staff animation. It seems like, in an attempt to avoid disappointing players in the future, staff could take the road of foreshadowing and having the player keep the possible threat to the plot in mind... which could kill a player's enthusiasm for the plot in the first place.

Seems like a lose-lose situation no matter how you look at it. I'm sure some players would prefer to be encouraged from the start and others would prefer we don't pull their leg and waste their time. Is it better to be honest about the challenge the PC faces ahead - or to be encouraging, potentially falsely so? I don't really know. Both have the same potential for PCs to succeed or not, or to have fun or not.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
Sure, but the flip-side of that is the player making the attempt to plot after being told "go ahead and keep us updated!" and then becoming disappointed when it fails without warning after a staff animation. It seems like, in an attempt to avoid disappointing players in the future, staff could take the road of foreshadowing and having the player keep the possible threat to the plot in mind... which could kill a player's enthusiasm for the plot in the first place.

Seems like a lose-lose situation no matter how you look at it. I'm sure some players would prefer to be encouraged from the start and others would prefer we don't pull their leg and waste their time. Is it better to be honest about the challenge the PC faces ahead - or to be encouraging, potentially falsely so? I don't really know. Both have the same potential for PCs to succeed or not, or to have fun or not.

That's a fair point I suppose.

I personally think one equates to playing the game however, and the other equates to being demotivated to even attempt to play the game.

Maybe people would be 100 times more pissy about getting crushed after the fact...I don't know. I do know they are pissy now about being crushed out of even making an attempt.

We KNOW one way people don't like it. We know they don't like being discouraged out of even making an attempt.

Do we have any specific examples of people coming in and saying, "Man, I wish they would have never even let me try now because it didn't work out."? I can't think of any.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 11:17:41 AM
Here's a suggestion, perhaps change the phrasing of your responses in the request tool to something like this:  

Quote

Player,

The request has been approved. You're free to pursue this in-game.

With that said...  Your character has overheard conversations from some of the old timers at the Temple of Vivadu about why their previous temple was burned down.  They blame it on the opulent garden they kept on the roof.


Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 19, 2015, 11:18:39 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 10:21:41 AM
I'm a little sad (but not surprised) that it needs to be said, but the player attempting to grow a tree wasn't explicitly told no. There was still room to make the attempt to try - however, staff told them what the PC might expect to happen if they did try. I will not get into it further since this only happened 6 months ago, but I will reiterate that the PC was never prevented from attempting to do this, and if the player went to re-read the response they got from staff at the time, they would see that. Staff exist to support the players, and sometimes that involves a little foreshadowing. And within reason, it almost never involves outright rejection. Staff respond to reports in the context of a higher power, a vNPC or NPC that the PC reports to. Listening to this higher power or not is the PC's choice, always.

The reason why I'm not surprised is because discontented players over the years have spent their time poisoning the well, and unfortunately it has grown and grown. It started with private forms of communication and culminated with places like jcarter's board, which allows for one-sided storytelling in an echo chamber and no room for a defense of or response from staff. The end result is that some people read into a staff response and read what they want to see - red tape, rejection, hostility - when it isn't always, and is in fact almost never there. While some of the criticism is fair and we work to build off of that criticism and improve from it, a lot of it (as well as the sudden assumptions, the attempts at reading between the lines of staff responses, the blanket attacks on staff) is unfair and untrue. More players would see that if they judged staff on their own experiences rather than what someone else has to say about their own.

Um, (a) I didn't bring it up and (b) Jave, staff, is the one who formulated it as a rejection.  All I did is give Jave the Character Report #.  Sheesh.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Beethoven on October 19, 2015, 11:20:15 AM
I am also in the camp of letting players try risky things, and letting them see what the consequences are afterwards. If they as a player or as a PC are not aware of the potential consequences, they shouldn't miraculously become aware of them because of a discouraging (or supposedly discouraging) OOC character report. Wizturbo's suggestion is a nice happy medium; giving a "hint" of what their PC might know that could warn them about the consequences, without saying what sounds to a lot of player ears like "you're doomed to failure." If they wouldn't have any way of knowing what the consequences might be, I say leave the hint out and just let them find out the hard way.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Lizzie on October 19, 2015, 11:21:58 AM
Quote from: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
Sure, but the flip-side of that is the player making the attempt to plot after being told "go ahead and keep us updated!" and then becoming disappointed when it fails without warning after a staff animation. It seems like, in an attempt to avoid disappointing players in the future, staff could take the road of foreshadowing and having the player keep the possible threat to the plot in mind... which could kill a player's enthusiasm for the plot in the first place.

Seems like a lose-lose situation no matter how you look at it. I'm sure some players would prefer to be encouraged from the start and others would prefer we don't pull their leg and waste their time. Is it better to be honest about the challenge the PC faces ahead - or to be encouraging, potentially falsely so? I don't really know. Both have the same potential for PCs to succeed or not, or to have fun or not.

When I read "this might come with unintended results" from a staffer, I think it means "this might come with unintended results." I know there are people who will think it means "you can't do it, the staff will make it fail." But I'm not one of those people. I accept that this means it -might- fail. Or it might succeed, but with consequences I hadn't thought of at the time. Or it might result in my character getting assassinated and not being able to complete the project, thus never finding out whether or not it would have succeeded or failed at all.

When I see "go ahead and keep us updated" I take that to mean "you have our blessing to try, no guarantees on the outcome one way or another" and that keeping them updated is likely to be helpful in achieving the goal - or getting assassinated. Either way, it's a win-win because it means an interesting conclusion.

When I see "if you try this, you might end up with the templarate coming down on your ass because reason #1, reason #2, and then this or that might happen" - that's when I get annoyed. Why? Because it looks like the staff is playing Armageddon in my e-mail instead of in the game. I'd rather find all this stuff out in game. And by that, I mean - I would really like to find out IC. I don't want it to be a mystery. I want to succeed in learning, through roleplay, why something will fail. I'm fine with the failure. And I'm fine with knowing why it failed. I just really want to find out through the course of play, and not via the request tool.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 11:22:34 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 11:18:39 AM
Um, (a) I didn't bring it up and (b) Jave, staff, is the one who formulated it as a rejection.  All I did is give Jave the Character Report #.  Sheesh.

Shhhh, Nauta...  No one is blaming you.  Your request is just being used as a platform to discuss how requests are handled in general.  Your little tree has grown into something all together different.  :)

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 19, 2015, 11:30:30 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 09:32:11 AM
If Player Dude's Armageddon dream is to try and grow a tree, just let them do it! That's what Armageddon used to be all about.

Now how society reacts to that tree growing up in the middle of the Viv temple is Staff's job and they get to decide if that tree will end up causing massive population riots or will just die three weeks later because it's an exotic seed missing some sort of key nutrients. Or maybe a Templar will just walk in and take out his frustration on that poor little tree.

But trying to convince a player that his idea is not a good one because this and that MIGHT happen, or because it "doesn't fit" or isn't "realistic" is a big bummer - Don't tell players what they can or cannot do (unless it's really out of this world retarded), just let them do what they want and then REACT to it.

I mean, come on!

I'm stepping out of this one, but let me just say that's not at all what happened in the staff report.  I'm pretty sure I can't say what happened in the staff report, but the gist of it was:

Hi, I got something, and I wanted to plant it somewhere.  Reply: You'd learn that the City Ministry (blah blah, basically what Jave said).  There was no 'no', there was no 'yes'.  Staff just told me the relevant bit of history and lore and their take on it.  It was fine, Malken.

Of course, IG that was a rejection, and likely Eyeball heard about it IG.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: manonfire on October 19, 2015, 11:32:09 AM
Is it really that complicated?

If a player wants to plant a tree somewhere and sends in logs of them doing so, add a damn tree. Or a sapling. Or something.

If, as a staffer, you decide the soil is too acidic for that tree to grow properly, modify the description to reflect that. Kill their tree.

If, as a staffer, you decide some unruly mob decides they really, reeeeeeally hate this exotic tree that's popped up, send in an unruly mob and destroy it. Hell, animate an NPC and try to galvanize some of the vapid tavernsitters in the Gaj to tag along.

If, as a staffer, you decide that some templar was having a shitty day because of an unpleasant sexual experience the previous night and decides to burninate that tree, burn the shit out of it.

If, as a staffer, you decide that a Nilazi influence causes the tree to become sentient, sprout teeth, and attack the PC and scream for their blood, have at it.

Do something cool, you know?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 11:34:18 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 19, 2015, 11:21:58 AM
When I see "if you try this, you might end up with the templarate coming down on your ass because reason #1, reason #2, and then this or that might happen" - that's when I get annoyed. Why? Because it looks like the staff is playing Armageddon in my e-mail instead of in the game. I'd rather find all this stuff out in game. And by that, I mean - I would really like to find out IC. I don't want it to be a mystery. I want to succeed in learning, through roleplay, why something will fail. I'm fine with the failure. And I'm fine with knowing why it failed. I just really want to find out through the course of play, and not via the request tool.

To be fair, it greatly increases the amount of work to respond to a request by having to create the situation in-game every time.  They have to catch you online, which might not always be easy.  Then they have to animate an NPC, or perform a series of echoes, and hope you the player understand what's going on.  What could take a few minutes to resolve via the request tool, could take an hour or more in-game.  Sure the in-game one is more fun, but if all requests were handled in-game, the queue for responses could be weeks long.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 11:38:22 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 11:34:18 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 19, 2015, 11:21:58 AM
When I see "if you try this, you might end up with the templarate coming down on your ass because reason #1, reason #2, and then this or that might happen" - that's when I get annoyed. Why? Because it looks like the staff is playing Armageddon in my e-mail instead of in the game. I'd rather find all this stuff out in game. And by that, I mean - I would really like to find out IC. I don't want it to be a mystery. I want to succeed in learning, through roleplay, why something will fail. I'm fine with the failure. And I'm fine with knowing why it failed. I just really want to find out through the course of play, and not via the request tool.

To be fair, it greatly increases the amount of work to respond to a request by having to create the situation in-game every time.  They have to catch you online, which might not always be easy.  Then they have to animate an NPC, or perform a series of echoes, and hope you the player understand what's going on.  What could take a few minutes to resolve via the request tool, could take an hour or more in-game.  Sure the in-game one is more fun, but if all requests were handled in-game, the queue for responses could be weeks long.

Yeah I was going to post this as well. Staff has to strike a balance due to manpower...which there really isn't an easy solution for.

It's a hard situation for sure for everyone on that front.

My solution was to give Storytellers more power, but apparently that isn't the problem...so I'm out of ideas there. Meh.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 11:38:43 AM
For the third time, all of the above (in manonfire's post) is absolutely possible in the context of staff response to player efforts. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. I already know what my staffing style is. I am in charge of three clans and they all have plots that I support and monitor in the "keep us updated" style. I try to let players be as autonomous as possible. I think other staff operate the same way. I'm not posting here to validate staff shutting down plots from the get-go. I'm just here to get my own point across and attempt to explain why the message has changed over the years. Players got disappointed at staff for being less transparent and more bureaucratic. As a response, staff tried to be more upfront and honest. Now the pendulum is swinging the other way. Hopefully we will find a happy balance.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 19, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 11:34:18 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 19, 2015, 11:21:58 AM
When I see "if you try this, you might end up with the templarate coming down on your ass because reason #1, reason #2, and then this or that might happen" - that's when I get annoyed. Why? Because it looks like the staff is playing Armageddon in my e-mail instead of in the game. I'd rather find all this stuff out in game. And by that, I mean - I would really like to find out IC. I don't want it to be a mystery. I want to succeed in learning, through roleplay, why something will fail. I'm fine with the failure. And I'm fine with knowing why it failed. I just really want to find out through the course of play, and not via the request tool.

To be fair, it greatly increases the amount of work to respond to a request by having to create the situation in-game every time.  They have to catch you online, which might not always be easy.  Then they have to animate an NPC, or perform a series of echoes, and hope you the player understand what's going on.  What could take a few minutes to resolve via the request tool, could take an hour or more in-game.  Sure the in-game one is more fun, but if all requests were handled in-game, the queue for responses could be weeks long.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand we're going back to my original post that started this whole thread, that Armageddon is now less of a "game" for many and more of a red-tape labyrinth that would put France's bureaucracy to shame.

manonfire asks if it's that complicated to just add a tree to the gameworld? Considering that just adding a simple keyword to a mob in game was a "team effort process", I'm going to say that yes, yes it is. - Please do prove me wrong :(

What I imagine Armageddon to be like these days is that a simple Storyteller isn't allowed to just go and add a small tree to the gameworld. They probably have to write a proposal on the Staff board and then have it talked about between other Staff members, and then if the proposal of adding a tree is accepted and signed on by Nyr, Adhira or Nessalin, then the Storyteller has the a-OK of adding that little tree to the gameworld, but first he has to write a report about it, about why that tree is there, who asked for it, it's description, it's purpose in the world and where that Staff sees the future of that tree in game.

Man, if it's anything like that, no wonder they don't want to add simple stuff to the game anymore and they are picky about their projects.

I hope it's not even close to what I just described...

(Sorry Nergal, just read your post after I wrote mine - Honesty from Staff is much appreciated)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 11:47:11 AM
Adding the drov keyword to the beetle took merely a few minutes of discussion and a few seconds in-game to set the keyword. Overblowing it as a team effort process is an exaggeration. Yes, we discussed it as a team, but only to ensure that drov beetle was part of the PC vernacular for a while.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 11:52:42 AM
Well now I'm curious because I get curious.  :)

Let's say a player wanted to "Dig a hole in the desert and fill it with snakes he captures.". (completely randomly picked idea)

The only thing he needs from staff is for them to read the log of him using his shovel to dig his hole over a few days. He can do the rest. (Subdue/knock out snakes and leave them in the hole. He needs no help here. The only staff involvement is adding the hole.)

What would be the process from the Storyteller standpoint on getting that approved/put in the game?

I'm just curious how the process would work for something basic and simple like that.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 19, 2015, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: Jave on October 19, 2015, 04:24:24 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 02:20:34 AM
Sorry, this kept bothering me.

Eyeball's claim was that:

(a) "I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza [recently]."

which sounds the same as:

(b) "I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a pymlithe tree in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza [recently]."

The bit that you appended to (b) about the riots and whatnot to make it look like he was getting it all wrong and being way off base actually could be appended to (a) as well.

I suppose you could fight the merits of agafari vs. pymlithe in the rarities department, but, yeah - (a) and (b) are prrrrretty similar.

Anyway, I've always been fine with the decision itself -- I guess I'm just pointing out that you were being a bit unfair there to Eyeball.


???

Maybe I'm not grokking this correctly but I'm confused by what you wrote. I'm not sure in what way you think I was being unfair.

Sorry, it was a simple point about the 'telephone' comment you made.  Basically, you said something like: and this is what happens when players play telephone, they misrepresent the facts terribly.  But, really, he got all the facts right (except the kind of tree) he just didn't know what the staff response was or would be (he didn't know - or was playing coy - that there had been a riot, etc. etc.).  I can explain privately if you want.




Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 11:59:44 AM
Desertman,
- A storyteller would write the room for the hole.
- They would submit a Room Approval request to the Admin of their team. The request is to let the Admin know that a room needs to be checked over for things like: spelling errors, missing features (if the storyteller forgot to put an up exit in the room, for example). This doesn't take long for an Admin to handle. It's not red tape, it's just basic quality control.
- The storyteller would let the player RP digging the hole, then link the room into the game and let the player know it's there, maybe with an echo.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 12:00:43 PM
Quote from: Nergal on October 19, 2015, 11:59:44 AM
Desertman,
- A storyteller would write the room for the hole.
- They would submit a Room Approval request to the Admin of their team. The request is to let the Admin know that a room needs to be checked over for things like: spelling errors, missing features (if the storyteller forgot to put an up exit in the room, for example). This doesn't take long for an Admin to handle. It's not red tape, it's just basic quality control.
- The storyteller would let the player RP digging the hole, then link the room into the game and let the player know it's there, maybe with an echo.

That is much simpler than the horror-story my mind had put together. Thank you.  :)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Rathustra on October 19, 2015, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 11:34:18 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 19, 2015, 11:21:58 AM
When I see "if you try this, you might end up with the templarate coming down on your ass because reason #1, reason #2, and then this or that might happen" - that's when I get annoyed. Why? Because it looks like the staff is playing Armageddon in my e-mail instead of in the game. I'd rather find all this stuff out in game. And by that, I mean - I would really like to find out IC. I don't want it to be a mystery. I want to succeed in learning, through roleplay, why something will fail. I'm fine with the failure. And I'm fine with knowing why it failed. I just really want to find out through the course of play, and not via the request tool.

To be fair, it greatly increases the amount of work to respond to a request by having to create the situation in-game every time.  They have to catch you online, which might not always be easy.  Then they have to animate an NPC, or perform a series of echoes, and hope you the player understand what's going on.  What could take a few minutes to resolve via the request tool, could take an hour or more in-game.  Sure the in-game one is more fun, but if all requests were handled in-game, the queue for responses could be weeks long.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand we're going back to my original post that started this whole thread, that Armageddon is now less of a "game" for many and more of a red-tape labyrinth that would put France's bureaucracy to shame.

manonfire asks if it's that complicated to just add a tree to the gameworld? Considering that just adding a simple keyword to a mob in game was a "team effort process", I'm going to say that yes, yes it is. - Please do prove me wrong :(

What I imagine Armageddon to be like these days is that a simple Storyteller isn't allowed to just go and add a small tree to the gameworld. They probably have to write a proposal on the Staff board and then have it talked about between other Staff members, and then if the proposal of adding a tree is accepted and signed on by Nyr, Adhira or Nessalin, then the Storyteller has the a-OK of adding that little tree to the gameworld, but first he has to write a report about it, about why that tree is there, who asked for it, it's description, it's purpose in the world and where that Staff sees the future of that tree in game.

Man, if it's anything like that, no wonder they don't want to add simple stuff to the game anymore and they are picky about their projects.

I hope it's not even close to what I just described...

(Sorry Nergal, just read your post after I wrote mine - Honesty from Staff is much appreciated)

You're pretty close up until the final part. We would have written the stuff about what it is, where it is, its history, etc. beforehand to make the proposal. Of course we wouldn't do this for a plant (but I wouldn't really do a plant at all - if the bar is so low for this sort of thing the game'd end up with 60 player's worth of stuff accumulating over time). Larger additions to the game make footprints of proposals and discussions that can be referred back to, so in X years time when someone asks about it or wants to use it for something else, we know what the deal with it is.

I wouldn't have it any other way. Comparisons to P&P RPGs don't really stand as not many RPG campaigns have what, 100+ unique log-ins per month, plus Armageddon isn't a heroic fantasy game revolving around simulating a world for 5 people. Vive la bureaucratie!
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 19, 2015, 12:07:12 PM
Those are reasonable steps, Rathustra and Nergal :)

I don't have anything else to add.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 12:09:38 PM
Now everyone knows when they get "thrown in the snake hole", who is responsible.

I'm coming for you...coming to put you in my snake hole.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Rathustra on October 19, 2015, 12:11:06 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 12:07:12 PM
Those are reasonable steps, Rathustra and Nergal :)

I don't have anything else to add.

I sort of referred to something in one of my previous posts but one of the weirdest encounters I had on staff was following around some far-ranging PCs in a fairly rarely-visited part of the world, beyond the Known. We and the PCs came across a strange monument in the sands and, after working for a while with the tools we have for determining what things are I realized I had as much understanding of what the structure was about as the players.

In a way that is a cool experience - to play a game with so much history that deep down, buried in the strata of progressive eras of 'doing things a certain way' we can unearth nameless relics. But in another way, as a person who plays games like Arm to explore and discover - it was infuriating! The knowledge was lost forever and couldn't ever be used.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 19, 2015, 12:12:11 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 12:09:38 PM
Now everyone knows when they get "thrown in the snake hole", who is responsible.

I'm coming for you...coming to put you in my snake hole.

When I played my Seik, I would go and knock out those three gortoks by the span then I would subdue them one at a time, drag them to that pit near the Seik camp and toss them into the hole (rinse and repeat a bazillion time) in the hope that someone, someday (and if the game didn't crash) would fall into the pit and end up facing 1000 angry and hungry gortoks.

To think that with just a simple report I could have made this pit o' doom permanent! :(
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 12:26:03 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 12:12:11 PM

To think that with just a simple report I could have made this pit o' doom permanent! :(

A permanent hole in the ground with the bones of gortok's who starved to death?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: whitt on October 19, 2015, 12:27:08 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 19, 2015, 11:52:42 AM
Let's say a player wanted to "Dig a hole in the desert and fill it with snakes he captures.". (completely randomly picked idea)

The only thing he needs from staff is for them to read the log of him using his shovel to dig his hole over a few days. He can do the rest. (Subdue/knock out snakes and leave them in the hole. He needs no help here. The only staff involvement is adding the hole.)

What would be the process from the Storyteller standpoint on getting that approved/put in the game?

I'm just curious how the process would work for something basic and simple like that.

Well, I'll brainstorm, because I like brain-storming.

Basic and simple this... is not.  

Why?  What this would really be is a request for any player to be able to add a room by sending in a log of them digging in the sand.  As described that room is a "A hole in the sand" in this case, but could be a clay-walled hut or whatever just as easily so every player with a shovel and a dream can now add rooms whenever they want.  

But if that is true, whenever encountered, every other player should be able to fill in that hole making the room go away, but... how do we decide who is filling/digging the hole faster?  

If a sandstorm blows by does it (realistically) fill the hole right back in?  Who watches the weather to know if that happened?

How do we know the same staff member will handle both the digger and the filler's requests instead of each receiving reports that read "Hey I thought I dug/filled that hole!" why is/isn't it still there?  So staffer goes and adds/removes the room... again.  Oh... and rooms go in zones.  There's (maybe?) a limit to how many rooms can be in a zone.  What's the weather like down there.    

What if I dig a hole in the bottom of your hole?  Then dig a hole in the wall at the bottom my hole under your hole... logs and all... but dig it on the eastern side of the hole so it's more of a niche than a hole...

What happens to the snakes on a crash/reset?  The hole isn't likely to be added as a save room.  Now there's requests for what happened to all the snakes I piled into my hole?

Unless there is a immovable "hole" container that can easily be added to an area to hold things... but... creatures don't go into containers.  So you need a new container item called a hole that can hold... how many snakes?  And what happens when someone wants to fill the hole?  Junk the container?

Or... this player can just drop something with a desc of "a dusty shovel has been jabbed into the sand next to a hole full of snakes" and come back and junk their snakes with an emote of adding it to the hole.

Now imagine how many players, if this was a real feature would just wander about digging holes just because.  And realize this is not simple or easy to manage.

ETA: Nergal is much quicker at responding.. cheater knowing what actually happens...
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: AdamBlue on October 19, 2015, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 12:26:03 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 12:12:11 PM

To think that with just a simple report I could have made this pit o' doom permanent! :(

A permanent hole in the ground with the bones of gortok's who starved to death?

The gortoks bred themselves out of the hole on the bodies and bones of their children.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 01:22:43 PM
Sounds to me that players need to grow some fucking balls and stop taking every reasonable explanation of why "Your plot might face opposition from the gameworld" as "Your plot WILL fail because Staff hate your fun!"

Your plot will probably fail. Most plots do. So stop worrying about the end result and instead focus on the steps taken to get there.

The problem isn't with staff shutting down plots. The problems with pussy players thinking every IC obstacle is an OOC denial.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Alesan on October 19, 2015, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 01:22:43 PM
Sounds to me that players need to grow some fucking balls and stop taking every reasonable explanation of why "Your plot might face opposition from the gameworld" as "Your plot WILL fail because Staff hate your fun!"

Your plot will probably fail. Most plots do. So stop worrying about the end result and instead focus on the steps taken to get there.

The problem isn't with staff shutting down plots. The problems with pussy players thinking every IC obstacle is an OOC denial.

I'm sorry we're not all as hardass as you, man. You are the pinnacle of badassery. How can we even compare?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 01:51:27 PM
Stop worrying about Staff and just play the game. If you're playing in a confident, reasoned manner that takes the game world in to account and is respectful of the docs, you may find that favorable Staff attention will come to you. And even if it doesn't, that shouldn't be the metric on which you judge whether the game is fun or not. You should be playing and roleplaying with other players.

Also, stop actively trying to impart permanent change in the game.

The fact is that I'm not a hardass and tend to play fairly inoffensive characters. But reading 15 pages of people trying to justify why the game sucks in their own head, it's easy for me to understand why so much of our vaunted "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" is due to high school level pettiness and insecurity.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Iiyola on October 19, 2015, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 01:51:27 PM
Stop worrying about Staff and just play the game. If you're playing in a confident, reasoned manner that takes the game world in to account and is respectful of the docs, you may find that favorable Staff attention will come to you. And even if it doesn't, that shouldn't be the metric on which you judge whether the game is fun or not. You should be playing and roleplaying with other players.

Also, stop actively trying to impart permanent change in the game.

The fact is that I'm not a hardass and tend to play fairly inoffensive characters. But reading 15 pages of people trying to justify why the game sucks in their own head, it's easy for me to understand why so much of our vaunted "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" is due to high school level pettiness and insecurity.
This.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on October 19, 2015, 12:02:05 PM
You're pretty close up until the final part. We would have written the stuff about what it is, where it is, its history, etc. beforehand to make the proposal. Of course we wouldn't do this for a plant (but I wouldn't really do a plant at all - if the bar is so low for this sort of thing the game'd end up with 60 player's worth of stuff accumulating over time). Larger additions to the game make footprints of proposals and discussions that can be referred back to, so in X years time when someone asks about it or wants to use it for something else, we know what the deal with it is.

I wouldn't have it any other way. Comparisons to P&P RPGs don't really stand as not many RPG campaigns have what, 100+ unique log-ins per month, plus Armageddon isn't a heroic fantasy game revolving around simulating a world for 5 people. Vive la bureaucratie!

I think we're reaching the core of the issue here.

My interpretation of the response to nauta's request is that she could have endlessly emoted planting the seedling and caring for it, even setting out arranged seedling objects if such things exist in the world, yet each reboot there would be an empty pot. This response about not doing a plant at all just reinforces that.

Here is what I suggest:

1. Give the Storytellers the discretion to handle the little things (like minor modifications to room descriptions). They don't need to be documented in the game history, unlike a post-magick statue in the middle of nowhere.

2. The bar can be low where the effort required is low. How long does it take to modify a room description? Two minutes?

3. The Storytellers don't have to respond to every last request, just enough of them to give people that feeling that the world can change from their efforts and that anything can happen again. And something as simple as a little tree can be immensely satisfying to a player.

4. So that one player doesn't hog a disproportionate amount of the requests, note in that person's pinfo that some effort was made upon his/her behalf at such a time. If that person's been keeping staff busy, just reply "ask again in six months" or so.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 02:03:46 PM
+1 to bad BadSkeelz said...

And god I wish we didn't use this arcane GDB for these discussions.  Reddit would be SO, SO much better.  Stupid comments some people like to make would be downvoted into oblivion, and the comments people care about would rise to the top... Just this alone would be an enormous impact on the quality of the discussion.  People wouldn't feel like they have to explain why so and so is wrong, they just click downvote, and their comments would be marginalized to where they should be and ignored, or upvoted to show they're supported.

Fuck, I feel like I'd post probably 50% less than I do today if I just had a god damn up vote or down vote arrow to click on what other people have already said.

Can the GDB be added to the vis-a-vis Olden Times, and we move on to more advanced methods pls?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:14:27 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 01:51:27 PM
Stop worrying about Staff and just play the game. If you're playing in a confident, reasoned manner that takes the game world in to account and is respectful of the docs, you may find that favorable Staff attention will come to you. And even if it doesn't, that shouldn't be the metric on which you judge whether the game is fun or not. You should be playing and roleplaying with other players.

Also, stop actively trying to impart permanent change in the game.

The fact is that I'm not a hardass and tend to play fairly inoffensive characters. But reading 15 pages of people trying to justify why the game sucks in their own head, it's easy for me to understand why so much of our vaunted "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" is due to high school level pettiness and insecurity.

You're describing what makes you happy in the game. I hope you realize that not every player has similar affinities. Also, you're a relatively young player in game terms (you've been here four years?) and there's lots that's still new to you. You never got to experience the game as it was before the Arm 2.0 annoucement.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 19, 2015, 02:15:14 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:02:10 PM
My interpretation of the response to nauta's request is that she could have endlessly emoted planting the seedling and caring for it, even setting out arranged seedling objects if such things exist in the world, yet each reboot there would be an empty pot. This response about not doing a plant at all just reinforces that.

Ugh, that's not the right interpretation.  I did some emoting, asked staff if it took, and staff explained the lore and history and why it was probably a bad idea.  So I stopped, but I wasn't told to stop.  Staff handled it fine, Eyeball.  Just, I dunno, pick another example.

I should say, though, that the room descriptions and the 'look north' off Caravan's suggests that there are such plants there, especially the 'look north', but Jave said she'd take care of it.  No big deal.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:26:10 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 02:15:14 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:02:10 PM
My interpretation of the response to nauta's request is that she could have endlessly emoted planting the seedling and caring for it, even setting out arranged seedling objects if such things exist in the world, yet each reboot there would be an empty pot. This response about not doing a plant at all just reinforces that.

Ugh, that's not the right interpretation.  I did some emoting, asked staff if it took, and staff explained the lore and history and why it was probably a bad idea.  So I stopped, but I wasn't told to stop.  Staff handled it fine, Eyeball.  Just, I dunno, pick another example.

I should say, though, that the room descriptions and the 'look north' off Caravan's suggests that there are such plants there, especially the 'look north', but Jave said she'd take care of it.  No big deal.


I'm not trying to describe what happened, I'm describing my interpretation of the reply and how I would have felt discouraged by it.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 02:27:23 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:14:27 PM
You never got to experience the game as it was before the Arm 2.0 annoucement.

Thank God. A lot of it sounds ridiculous.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:43:22 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 02:27:23 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:14:27 PM
You never got to experience the game as it was before the Arm 2.0 annoucement.

Thank God. A lot of it sounds ridiculous.

Stop wagging your tail, Dogbert.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Delirium on October 19, 2015, 02:46:56 PM
Keep it civil please, both of you.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 19, 2015, 02:46:56 PM
Keep it civil please, both of you.

It's not an insult, actually.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 03:05:46 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:26:10 PM
I'm not trying to describe what happened, I'm describing my interpretation of the reply and how I would have felt discouraged by it.

What's there to be discouraged by? You're trying to raise a plant in a harsh desert setting. If the pot resets (which it shouldn't, if you're doing this in a save room), it's easy to rationalize it as the tree dying to the elements. I.e. a chance for more RP. Start over, keep plugging away at it. You might actually find success. Or not, because this is Zalanthas.

Seriously, what are you discouraged by? That the game is not bending over to accommodate your pet project that, if successful, is going to have zero impact on the game?

It sounds like you're paralyzed from acting if you don't get an unambiguous response from Staff that you'll succeed and achieve some sort of permanent change. In which case, no wonder you're discouraged and feel trapped. The way to move forward from that is to do your thing anyway regardless of reported chances of success.

Stop worrying about the OOC reception of your plot. If it makes sense for your character, just do it. Report it to Staff, but don't get discouraged if they lay out some IC challenges you may face.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 19, 2015, 03:27:44 PM
Anyways. The game is what it is and the sweeping changes that some are wanting in Staff policy is not going to change, so you either play with that knowledge in mind or you don't and move on. It's no big deal, really. Armageddon is not a religion or a cult, you can move on and find something else to play.

It reminds me of games like Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot or Asheron's Call - These were all -awesome- games and they did everything perfect for their time but eventually newer games came out and people moved on.

I don't play Arm anymore because it's not the game that I used to love anymore but that's life - I've moved on, I just need to find a GDB replacement, as well, then I'll be set!

It's OKAY, people. Staff have their own ways of doing things and it works for them and it works for the players that are still playing, but the rest of us can just move on and the world will keep on turning, yo.

Don't be a weirdo that continues to play a game they are bored with, or dislike, or continue to crusade for sweeping changes in Staff policies or Staff themselves, that makes you just -weird-, ya dingus! Just move on.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 03:49:33 PM
I don't really see my suggestions as amounting to a sweeping change, nor feel like a weirdo given that I'm not the only one here who has mentioned such things. I don't think posting more than once about a particular topic amounts to a crusade.

However... several people have told me now that the barriers are in my imagination rather than being real. So I'll give an idea or so a try over the next year or two and see how things go then.  :)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 19, 2015, 03:58:45 PM
So... basically you could just emote tending to the plant and roleplay it forever and ever, keep doing it, and nobody would mind one bit.  It could be your own little internalized plot, and that's a-okay.  However, after doing a bit of that - you came to staff and asked for an interpretation of what happened to it, and you were given an answer based on something that happened historically with plants in that area.  You may not have liked the answer, but there it was.

The answer you were given was based on the history for the area, not a staff workload perspective - but asking for permanent world change every time anyone does something that's pretty small in the grand scheme of things is kind of crazy.  "wish all Hey guys I just left a half empty beer on the bar at the Gaj, can you save the room so it's there after the boot?"  If staff responded to this sort of thing, it sets a precedent and pretty soon you'd have everyone wanting to leave their mark.

Don't get me wrong, it would be totally awesome if we had a fully persistent world (handled automatically by the code), but we aren't even close to being there yet.  There are modern and commercially produced games with budgets in the tens of millions of dollars that can't even do that.  I haven't seen it done well in an online game at all.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: AdamBlue on October 19, 2015, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 03:27:44 PM
Anyways. The game is what it is and the sweeping changes that some are wanting in Staff policy is not going to change, so you either play with that knowledge in mind or you don't and move on. It's no big deal, really. Armageddon is not a religion or a cult, you can move on and find something else to play.

It reminds me of games like Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot or Asheron's Call - These were all -awesome- games and they did everything perfect for their time but eventually newer games came out and people moved on.

I don't play Arm anymore because it's not the game that I used to love anymore but that's life - I've moved on, I just need to find a GDB replacement, as well, then I'll be set!

It's OKAY, people. Staff have their own ways of doing things and it works for them and it works for the players that are still playing, but the rest of us can just move on and the world will keep on turning, yo.

Don't be a weirdo that continues to play a game they are bored with, or dislike, or continue to crusade for sweeping changes in Staff policies or Staff themselves, that makes you just -weird-, ya dingus! Just move on.

Are you- Are you talking to yourself, here? I think of a majority of people playing still like the game. There's no real internal struggle to stop playing or not.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 04:01:30 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 03:49:33 PM
However... several people have told me now that the barriers are in my imagination rather than being real. So I'll give an idea or so a try over the next year or two and see how things go then.  :)

I think the GDB makes the barriers seem like this:

(http://www.ryanarts.co.uk/temp/bunker2.jpg)


When in reality, they're more like this:

(http://www.anpingyadong.com/blog/files/2014/10/chain-link-fence-xvk8qhd9.jpg)


Sure, climbing over a chain link fence is annoying sometimes...and those dogs look like they might bark at you if you dont give me a dog biscuit first...but that's about it and then you can have your little shrub or whatever.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Old Kank on October 19, 2015, 04:01:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand we're going back to my original post that started this whole thread, that Armageddon is now less of a "game" for many and more of a red-tape labyrinth that would put France's bureaucracy to shame.

Can I just hate on the red-tape generating request tool for a minute?

I have an idea.  I think it would be fun.  I think it's completely within the scope of the game, and it wouldn't even be all that hard to set up - mostly just an approved back story, and maybe a little initial set-up.

I think it's a stretch.  A long stretch.  I don't feel like wasting one of my special apps only to be told, "No, that would be too powerful," or "No, we don't like you that much."  I don't even have to be the one playing or driving the idea, but I don't feel like I have any other route to bring this idea to fruition.

I wish we had a "General Discussion" or "Shoot the shit with a bored staffer" option in the request tool.

Edited to add:  I know there's an "Idea" option, but I think the idea command has conditioned me to believe it won't be reviewed or responded to in anything approaching a timely manner.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 19, 2015, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: Old Kank on October 19, 2015, 04:01:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand we're going back to my original post that started this whole thread, that Armageddon is now less of a "game" for many and more of a red-tape labyrinth that would put France's bureaucracy to shame.

Can I just hate on the red-tape generating request tool for a minute?

I have an idea.  I think it would be fun.  I think it's completely within the scope of the game, and it wouldn't even be all that hard to set up - mostly just an approved back story, and maybe a little initial set-up.

I think it's a stretch.  A long stretch.  I don't feel like wasting one of my special apps only to be told, "No, that would be too powerful," or "No, we don't like you that much."  I don't even have to be the one playing or driving the idea, but I don't feel like I have any other route to bring this idea to fruition.

I wish we had a "General Discussion" or "Shoot the shit with a bored staffer" option in the request tool.

Edited to add:  I know there's an "Idea" option, but I think the idea command has conditioned me to believe it won't be reviewed or responded to in anything approaching a timely manner.

A couple staff hang out in Teamspeak from time to time, you could always try your luck there.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: sleepyhead on October 19, 2015, 04:17:51 PM
Is it not possible to send a request asking if a certain concept is too wacky to hope to spec app for, no matter what the details are?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Rokal on October 19, 2015, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 19, 2015, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: Old Kank on October 19, 2015, 04:01:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand we're going back to my original post that started this whole thread, that Armageddon is now less of a "game" for many and more of a red-tape labyrinth that would put France's bureaucracy to shame.

Can I just hate on the red-tape generating request tool for a minute?

I have an idea.  I think it would be fun.  I think it's completely within the scope of the game, and it wouldn't even be all that hard to set up - mostly just an approved back story, and maybe a little initial set-up.

I think it's a stretch.  A long stretch.  I don't feel like wasting one of my special apps only to be told, "No, that would be too powerful," or "No, we don't like you that much."  I don't even have to be the one playing or driving the idea, but I don't feel like I have any other route to bring this idea to fruition.

I wish we had a "General Discussion" or "Shoot the shit with a bored staffer" option in the request tool.

Edited to add:  I know there's an "Idea" option, but I think the idea command has conditioned me to believe it won't be reviewed or responded to in anything approaching a timely manner.

A couple staff hang out in Teamspeak from time to time, you could always try your luck there.

I relaly aught to drop in and say hi on that teamspeak sometime.

time to buy a new headset.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Case on October 19, 2015, 04:24:33 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 19, 2015, 01:51:27 PM
Stop worrying about Staff and just play the game. If you're playing in a confident, reasoned manner that takes the game world in to account and is respectful of the docs, you may find that favorable Staff attention will come to you. And even if it doesn't, that shouldn't be the metric on which you judge whether the game is fun or not. You should be playing and roleplaying with other players.

Also, stop actively trying to impart permanent change in the game.

The fact is that I'm not a hardass and tend to play fairly inoffensive characters. But reading 15 pages of people trying to justify why the game sucks in their own head, it's easy for me to understand why so much of our vaunted "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" is due to high school level pettiness and insecurity.
I pretty much do this and I never have issues with staff or my own fun. Although I do shoot for permanent changes.


Also, lol, Badskeelz is not a hardass. He's the sweetest guy IRL :)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Patuk on October 19, 2015, 05:32:04 PM
I'm just dropping by again to let it forever be heard that upvotes and downvotes would make the GDB even more unpleasant to read than it already can be
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Patuk on October 19, 2015, 05:32:04 PM
I'm just dropping by again to let it forever be heard that upvotes and downvotes would make the GDB even more unpleasant to read than it already can be

And I'd like to say I wish I could downvote your comment, to indicate I disagree, without having to type this.

There are many more lurkers than posters on the GDB, I don't see why they can't be given a voice.  Also, platforms like Reddit have vastly better search functionality, and would cost nothing to operate.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 19, 2015, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Patuk on October 19, 2015, 05:32:04 PM
I'm just dropping by again to let it forever be heard that upvotes and downvotes would make the GDB even more unpleasant to read than it already can be

And I'd like to say I wish I could downvote your comment, to indicate I disagree, without having to type this.

There are many more lurkers than posters on the GDB, I don't see why they can't be given a voice.  Also, platforms like Reddit have vastly better search functionality, and would cost nothing to operate.

Me and my cats would downvote you to oblivion and every other pro-Staffer messages as well, just so I can pretend that my position is the majority, then I would totally call the OP a flag of Canada because, let's face it, he totally is one.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 19, 2015, 05:48:50 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Patuk on October 19, 2015, 05:32:04 PM
I'm just dropping by again to let it forever be heard that upvotes and downvotes would make the GDB even more unpleasant to read than it already can be

And I'd like to say I wish I could downvote your comment, to indicate I disagree, without having to type this.

There are many more lurkers than posters on the GDB, I don't see why they can't be given a voice.  Also, platforms like Reddit have vastly better search functionality, and would cost nothing to operate.

Me and my cats would downvote you to oblivion and every other pro-Staffer messages as well, just so I can pretend that my position is the majority, then I would totally call the OP a [redacted] because, let's face it, he totally is one.

I tried to report this to the moderators, but it's just spinning.  Yeah, don't, um, use that word, even to refer to yourself.  Thanks.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Patuk on October 19, 2015, 05:50:59 PM
Search functionality is very different from upvotes/downvotes, though. If people lurk instead of post, they can do so, and post at any given point they want to. I've seen what upvotes and downvotes can do to MUDding communities, and it's not pretty. Not at all.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Akariel on October 19, 2015, 05:51:53 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 05:48:50 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 19, 2015, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 19, 2015, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Patuk on October 19, 2015, 05:32:04 PM
I'm just dropping by again to let it forever be heard that upvotes and downvotes would make the GDB even more unpleasant to read than it already can be

And I'd like to say I wish I could downvote your comment, to indicate I disagree, without having to type this.

There are many more lurkers than posters on the GDB, I don't see why they can't be given a voice.  Also, platforms like Reddit have vastly better search functionality, and would cost nothing to operate.

Me and my cats would downvote you to oblivion and every other pro-Staffer messages as well, just so I can pretend that my position is the majority, then I would totally call the OP a [redacted] because, let's face it, he totally is one.

I tried to report this to the moderators, but it's just spinning.  Yeah, don't, um, use that word, even to refer to yourself.  Thanks.

It got to us.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Malken on October 19, 2015, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 05:48:50 PM
I tried to report this to the moderators, but it's just spinning.  Yeah, don't, um, use that word, even to refer to yourself.  Thanks.

No problemo. I was just trying to fit everything that is terrible with Reddit in one silly sentence.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: ibusoe on October 19, 2015, 05:55:28 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 05:48:50 PM

I tried to report this to the moderators, but it's just spinning.  Yeah, don't, um, use that word, even to refer to yourself.  Thanks.

Personally, I find political correctness to be far more offensive, though.  People should consider how offensive political correctness is. 
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 19, 2015, 05:56:30 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:13:57 PM
Armageddon used to be a game that if you put in the effort, went about it seriously, got people involved and Staff thought it was a cool idea, they'd go along with it and build what you needed and you could leave a permanent mark in the game world.
No it didn't.

Players/characters who left a permanent change in the world have always been a very rare exception.

QuoteNow it's all automated and bureaucratic with an endless amount of forms to fill out and rules to follow and checkmarks that turned the mud into the static world that I feel it has turned into.
Navigating a "bureaucracy" is better than the old way where you had to know the right staffer and socially tickle their fancy just the right way or, in many cases, simply BE staff running a player avatar or otherwise having personal game agendas to get change done.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 06:14:00 PM
Speaking of barriers, here's a perception:

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToNbB7iv75i3bs-bo0L9_n9A8IrpYPi2PwT9rEhyUqdRj5xd4OKg)

We all know who is at the top, watching for little peons trying to carry their little requests across the plains of pits and ashes.  ;D

QuoteOne does not simply submit into RequestTool. Its black gates are guarded by more than just Storytellers. There is Ginka there that does not sleep. The great Producers are ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire, ash, and dust. The very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand applications could you do this. It is folly.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Case on October 19, 2015, 06:15:20 PM
I can call myself whatever I want :(
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 19, 2015, 06:39:01 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 02:15:14 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 19, 2015, 02:02:10 PM
My interpretation of the response to nauta's request is that she could have endlessly emoted planting the seedling and caring for it, even setting out arranged seedling objects if such things exist in the world, yet each reboot there would be an empty pot. This response about not doing a plant at all just reinforces that.

Ugh, that's not the right interpretation.  I did some emoting, asked staff if it took, and staff explained the lore and history and why it was probably a bad idea.  So I stopped, but I wasn't told to stop.  Staff handled it fine, Eyeball.  Just, I dunno, pick another example.

I should say, though, that the room descriptions and the 'look north' off Caravan's suggests that there are such plants there, especially the 'look north', but Jave said she'd take care of it.  No big deal.


Eyeball's point about the room descriptions for the road leading to the temple being an orgy of green still were spot on and as I said I would, I threw that up on the staff board to ask what the deal was with that. The answer: oversight.

We're people. We overlook stuff or miss stuff even with the quality control processes we have in place to try and minimize it.

I'll be toning down those room descriptions to reflect a more modest amount of flora and bring them in line with the way the temple itself is described. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

... ... oh right. I'm also a he  :-*
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Majikal on October 19, 2015, 06:58:12 PM
On the topic of changing the game world, I've been part and kicked off starting plenty of change. Some as minor as a room descriptions, others such as designing and rebuilding a wagon, a garden, a statue, designing nearly all of the crafts for a clan while not playing a crafter, I've removed a tribe from the game with my own plot, I've torn rifts between dimensions, I've travelled between dimensions, I've started a plague, I've joined my 'soul' with another pc, I had the element of Ruk (like, all of it) chase me through the desert and try and bury me beneath tidal waves of sand until a whiran saved my life (gamechanging for those that got to witness)... the list goes on and on and on.  I find that when I am proactive, communicate my intentions with staff, get players involved and aim to make the game enjoyable for those around me and my clan or indie group or family or whatever... shit tends to happen, shit tends to happen well, and shit tends to happen with staff support.

Someone said something about not being able to do a plant in a temple or something, honestly I didn't scroll back and read to see the full scoop, but here's my take...

Say I wanted to put a pymlithe/baobab whatever in the Vivaduan temple, I'd talk with my templemates about it, hire some crew to go and claim a sapling or whatever, virtual sapling, who cares. Bring it back. Nurture it. Maybe fail to keep it alive, try to figure out why, realize my pc hasn't ever really seen a tree like this, it's a northern plant so maybe you want to talk with a northern expert! Hire that Fale aide you know that mingles with that filthy northern necker, maybe that necker knows a Dasari, maybe he chats with said dasari.. brings you back information about how to care for a Pymlithe! Now we're cookin! Hire the crew again, get another sapling but make it a real healthy one cause now you got some dasari lore to weigh in on, drop that pot the mercs give you with the ldesc of having a dink ass sapling in it. Rp around the sapling, maybe a jaded mage steals it! PLOT! Maybe someone is secretly poisoning the plant and changing the ldesc to reflect it, plot! Maybe your sapling goes undisturbed and you make it a side project to keep taking care of it. None of that took staff support, but you created fun for people. Keep the staff updated on the plot with your monthly reports, maybe one day it becomes a hardcoded part of the gameworld. Tada. Way cooler than get plant, drop plant, request for room change. Which added jackshit to the game that revolves around storytelling.


I've been told no, but when I'm told no on something it's often with a response as to why which makes sense. Sorry, we can't wagonz cuz of game limitations. Sorry, this wouldn't make sense because of this. I've NEVER just been told no, without explanation, or with a dickish reply.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Majikal on October 19, 2015, 07:04:36 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 19, 2015, 05:56:30 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 13, 2015, 04:13:57 PM
Armageddon used to be a game that if you put in the effort, went about it seriously, got people involved and Staff thought it was a cool idea, they'd go along with it and build what you needed and you could leave a permanent mark in the game world.
No it didn't.

Players/characters who left a permanent change in the world have always been a very rare exception.

QuoteNow it's all automated and bureaucratic with an endless amount of forms to fill out and rules to follow and checkmarks that turned the mud into the static world that I feel it has turned into.
Navigating a "bureaucracy" is better than the old way where you had to know the right staffer and socially tickle their fancy just the right way or, in many cases, simply BE staff running a player avatar or otherwise having personal game agendas to get change done.

And what Moe said. Though 'very rare exception' may not have been my word choice. The game was more of a free for all sandbox for all staff back in the day and it caused problems which the new system of staff management has completely nulled. I'm much happier with this new setup. Not that I didn't have fun in the olden times.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 19, 2015, 07:05:02 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 19, 2015, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: Jave on October 19, 2015, 04:24:24 AM
Maybe I'm not grokking this correctly but I'm confused by what you wrote. I'm not sure in what way you think I was being unfair.

Sorry, it was a simple point about the 'telephone' comment you made.  Basically, you said something like: and this is what happens when players play telephone, they misrepresent the facts terribly.  But, really, he got all the facts right (except the kind of tree) he just didn't know what the staff response was or would be (he didn't know - or was playing coy - that there had been a riot, etc. etc.).  I can explain privately if you want.

Ah, I understand now. I suppose that did come off as more accusatory than it was meant to be. I wasn't trying to admonish anyone, I just wanted to make a broader point, and that is as follows:

If you hear stories about staff refusing to let a player do something that sounds so incredibly benign and harmless as to redefine stupidity ... odds are it's made up entirely, or you are missing some choice bits of information that would make that story sound a whole lot different from what you've currently got in your mind.

What "red tape" and "bureaucracy" that we have is basically there for quality control, and it's not nearly as foreboding as some people seem to envision it.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Inks on October 19, 2015, 07:34:50 PM
I have never been denied doing anything by staff, to be honest. I have been denied by superiors from seeking bloody retribution, but I still could have. I will try creating something on a pc and see how it goes, I feel staff response the last couple of pages is very reasonable, if it actually works like this.

I guess we could always give it a go rather than talking about how X will never happen.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
Thread Ideas and Suggestions Not Addressed Yet

I updated this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203) with all the stuff that staff did address. It's a pretty neat list. Also, I think it's pretty awesome that Jave is going to edit some room descriptions (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908531.html#msg908531) based on this thread. Great stuff!

Staff doesn't have to address everything on this list my any means, but if they do want to, this is intended to make it easier to do so.











Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 23, 2015, 11:22:18 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
Thread Ideas and Suggestions Not Addressed Yet

I updated this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203) with all the stuff that staff did address. It's a pretty neat list. Also, I think it's pretty awesome that Jave is going to edit some room descriptions (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908531.html#msg908531) based on this thread. Great stuff!

Staff doesn't have to address everything on this list my any means, but if they do want to, this is intended to make it easier to do so.


  • Staff Communication - Improve staff communication by having standards of polite and courteous behavior; possibility of developing guidelines/requirements staff-side

  • Requests and OOC Communication Requirements - Either streamlining processes that require requests, or making it clearer why steps are needed, enabling players to feel more productive about requests. Possibility of making guidelines for how long typical requests take (and having staff contact to say that they're working on it, if it's taking longer). Perhaps a way to include better separation/clarity of IC/OOC on results ("You are free to pursue this in game. However, your character would have heard...")

Great list. 

I would also say something along the lines of cultivating a climate of positivity and encouragement, rather than a climate of negativity and discouragement.  It's subtle, and it's not about 'no': staff has to say 'no' to a lot of things, but they can say 'no' in more encouraging ways, ways that make us want to develop characters and roleplay in Armageddon.  It is, after all, a kind of collaborative story we're telling here.  If something doesn't make sense about what a player wants, or what a player is doing, perhaps staff can be proactive about working with the player about what would make sense, in a way that is encouraging -- inspiration is something that Armageddon offers in its rich documentation but it is not something I've encountered with ... the stuff behind the veil with the people upstairs.

I would also add on the subject of small-scale plots: it would be neat if staff would check into the stories that players themselves are running and encourage those stories -- nothing big, just little animations now and then.  A lot of plots feel like they come to us from the outside, and our own stories get set aside as a result.


Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Lizzie on October 23, 2015, 11:26:16 PM
I have previously and still disagree with the notion that characters could have skills added as their interests grow. The skill lists for guilds/subguilds provide your character with what they are, and will be, capable of doing in life. Why would anyone expect that someone should be capable of learning and being competent at every skill, just because that's what they want to do? Hey I'd love to be an astrophysicist - but I suck at math. I don't have the capacity to learn astrophysics. I can play piano, as a novice - but I won't ever be at apprentice level because I'm just not that coordinated. I'm equally uncoordinated enough that I'd make a lousy pickpocket and would likely get caught every single time, forever. I'm also not very graceful, and so I can just put the thought of becoming a ballerina to bed.

Such it is in fantasy. Not everyone is, or should be. capable of being everything. If that was possible, there'd be no need for multiple players. You'd just have one player playing one character that's good at everything, they win, game over.

Armageddon is cooperative fiction, it's not a first-person shooter. As such, it requires people working together to make it work. In order to create enough interest for that to happen, you need some people who suck at some things, and some people who suck at other things - so they all actually have some use for each other.

And so - you have guilds and subguilds, and now extended subguilds. There are so many variations of possibilities already, that you have people trying to be the best at everything and totally self-sufficient so that they don't have to rely on anyone else. I am convinced that this is one of the reasons why there are sometimes such long-lasting lulls in the playerbase. It's a phase when people think "I can do all these things, yay, I'm uber!" and then realize they have no one to interact with anymore because everyone is able to do their own thing and no one needs anyone else. That get really boring, and it only hurts the game.

I'm not saying there should be more limits, but I am saying that the guild/subguild/ext subguild should be enough to satisfy without crossing over into 1-shot wonders who burn out from boredom after they max out all their skills.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 23, 2015, 11:41:54 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 23, 2015, 11:26:16 PMNot everyone is, or should be. capable of being everything. If that was possible, there'd be no need for multiple players. You'd just have one player playing one character that's good at everything, they win, game over.

Armageddon is cooperative fiction, it's not a first-person shooter. As such, it requires people working together to make it work. In order to create enough interest for that to happen, you need some people who suck at some things, and some people who suck at other things - so they all actually have some use for each other.

And so - you have guilds and subguilds, and now extended subguilds. There are so many variations of possibilities already, that you have people trying to be the best at everything and totally self-sufficient so that they don't have to rely on anyone else. I am convinced that this is one of the reasons why there are sometimes such long-lasting lulls in the playerbase. It's a phase when people think "I can do all these things, yay, I'm uber!" and then realize they have no one to interact with anymore because everyone is able to do their own thing and no one needs anyone else. That get really boring, and it only hurts the game.

I'm not saying there should be more limits, but I am saying that the guild/subguild/ext subguild should be enough to satisfy without crossing over into 1-shot wonders who burn out from boredom after they max out all their skills.

While I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I also think it would be nice to have a way to change your character's skill set after you created them.

For me, I'd think some of the following could be interesting:





There're not fully fleshed out ideas, just a brainstorm of stuff that could be neat (I'm sure they have flaws, as presented). Do you have any interest in any of these ideas, Lizzie, or do you still think it falls too much into the category of "everyone being good at everything"?

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jihelu on October 23, 2015, 11:52:59 PM
I brainstorm neat stuff all the time.


After I make the character.

Then it's just like "Well okay
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 24, 2015, 12:12:00 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 23, 2015, 11:22:18 PMI would also say something along the lines of cultivating a climate of positivity and encouragement, rather than a climate of negativity and discouragement.  It's subtle, and it's not about 'no': staff has to say 'no' to a lot of things, but they can say 'no' in more encouraging ways, ways that make us want to develop characters and roleplay in Armageddon.  It is, after all, a kind of collaborative story we're telling here.  If something doesn't make sense about what a player wants, or what a player is doing, perhaps staff can be proactive about working with the player about what would make sense, in a way that is encouraging -- inspiration is something that Armageddon offers in its rich documentation but it is not something I've encountered with ... the stuff behind the veil with the people upstairs.

I've actually been blessed with incredibly encouraging staff for awhile. I have to say that when staff show enthusiasm, listen, and respond thoroughly, it really heightens my enjoyment of the game. It feels like they care about my little tiny piece of the game world. I've also been told "no" in my time by staff. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I agree that everything is in the delivery.

I've had staff say "no" in ways that felt accusatory and aggressive before, and it really made me angry and frustrated. It wasn't that they were wrong, because there were reasons for saying no. It was all about the presentation. More recently, when my staff has said "no" to things and it's disappointed me, and I've expressed that disappointment, they have been incredibly receptive. They've taken the time to listen to my points, what I was saying, and explain why it was a no. Even if it's a no, being able to engage with staff about it does make things feel better. A quote from one report: "We also appreciate you getting in touch instead of letting reservations linger."

I guess what my point is in all this is that I think staff has been doing a lot in the past, oh, nearly a year now to really work with players and try to develop a positive atmosphere. I think that it's a two-way street, also. We, as players, can try to avoid letting disagreements fester. It won't make it a "yes", but staff is willing to go over the whys of a decision when it's a "no".

There have been times when I've been really, really upset about staff. Now is not one of them. I feel like right now, our staff are incredibly engaged and active with the game, and with trying to respond to players in a positive manner. I mean--Just look at this thread! It's had a ton of staffers posting, trying to be reactive and responsive to player ideas, thoughts, and concerns.


QuoteI would also add on the subject of small-scale plots: it would be neat if staff would check into the stories that players themselves are running and encourage those stories -- nothing big, just little animations now and then.  A lot of plots feel like they come to us from the outside, and our own stories get set aside as a result.

I agree that little animations, or animations to support player initiatives can make a big difference. I've been happy in this regard lately, too. My advice to people who want support or comments on the little stuff is to include personal plots in your reports. I've included this in reports... Not every plot your PC wants to happen will (I've had a good number of plots not happen, and it still bums me out), but there's a good number that can and will, especially if you pursue them and get PC and staff support (I've had a lot of awesome things happen, too, that were thrilling).

So, yeah, that's my take on stuff.


Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Lizzie on October 24, 2015, 09:47:18 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 11:41:54 PM

While I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I also think it would be nice to have a way to change your character's skill set after you created them.

For me, I'd think some of the following could be interesting:

  • A way to change your subguild or slowly convert from one to another, as interests changed -- Note that this process would take IC years, not an instant switch enabling someone to be uber at will. It could be done only very, very rarely--Maybe just once.

  • Through role-play and learning ICly, having a PC that was not started as an extended subguild gain additional skills. This would require use of a Spec App slot AFTER creation, but also require RP logs. Likewise, it would take IC years. The new extended subguild would have to be based off of the original subguild. This could NOT be used in tangent with the above.

  • Low-level skill gain to represent hobbies and tinkering. Likewise, take IC years, and staff approval. Maxed at no higher then journeyman, maybe just apprentice.

There're not fully fleshed out ideas, just a brainstorm of stuff that could be neat (I'm sure they have flaws, as presented). Do you have any interest in any of these ideas, Lizzie, or do you still think it falls too much into the category of "everyone being good at everything"?

I'd be fine with the notion that, as someone progresses, they'd be able to add skills that would show up as an extended subguild. But - that already is possible through the extended subuilds. That's what it's for.

My concern is the believable capacity to learn, vs. the fantastical capacity to learn. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. Even a genius sucks at something and will never have the capacity to learn it. There are just some things you can't do, period. That's believable.

On the other hand, I do believe that all skills that have on-off switches should be capable of being tried by everyone, even if they don't have the skill. So - someone trying to pick a lock should be able to try and pick it - and if they don't have the skill, they get an error message telling them they suck at it and fail. Miserably. Climb skill - the same (though I think everyone should have the climb skill at novice unless they've special apped a one-legged PC, in which case climb should result in failure every single time and increase the chance of catastrophic failure). Everyone should be capable of dual-wielding - but only people with the weapon skill should be capable of hitting their target - unless they have a special-apped one-armed PC, in which case they should not be capable of dual-wielding anything, and their "hold" ability should be taken away from them.

I think everyone should have the coded ability to "peek" and "steal" and "listen on" and "scan on" and "hunt," but if they lack the actual skill, then they should fail every time because they're just simply not perceptive enough. Their lack of perception equates with a lack of capacity to succeed at these particular skills. They should be able to try, and they should receive a message saying that they failed. A reminder that - their character is myopic. Or near-sighted. Or half-blind. Or too easily distracted to pay attention long enough to notice anything. Or mentally disabled in the perception processing area of their brains, or whatever.

As for low-level skills for hobbies and tinkering, I believe ALL characters should have some crafting ability, and if their chosen guild/subguild doesn't include specific crafts, then they should get some random craft set at novice, with no chance to improve. This would give everyone the -capacity- to do something for the hell of it that is creative. Not everyone has creative talents, but everyone can whittle wood. So - not everyone can whittle wood into anything useful - but you should be able to whittle it into a toothpick or sliver of wood (which is, in essence, what a toothpick is).

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Riev on October 24, 2015, 10:42:28 AM
I don't remember who said it, off the top of my head (It might've been Blaze?)...


You want to work on pipes, but you aren't Mario. You're Joe the Plumber.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 24, 2015, 10:54:45 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 24, 2015, 09:47:18 AMI'd be fine with the notion that, as someone progresses, they'd be able to add skills that would show up as an extended subguild. But - that already is possible through the extended subuilds. That's what it's for.

I think the main difference is just when it happens. Right now, the Armageddon character design system is set up that whatever guild you pick before you get IG, your character sticks with those skills, no matter what. If you want to have an ext subguild, you need to plan it out in advanced. Which, you know, can be fine. But it might also be fun to be able to (through use of a special app, and significant IC RP, which would make it more challenging then doing it out of the box), expand a PC's horizon's.

That's also why I think that changing subguilds (normal ones) through time and RP could be interesting. Maybe in their youth they really liked whittling wood, but now that they're older, they've gotten out of practice--But they're better at working with flowers, because they learned they really liked flowers (or whatever).


QuoteMy concern is the believable capacity to learn, vs. the fantastical capacity to learn. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. Even a genius sucks at something and will never have the capacity to learn it. There are just some things you can't do, period. That's believable.

Yeah, I definitely am not advocating for people to be super skilled, so they don't need to rely on anyone else. I agree with your other post about how different skill sets helps encourage interaction and plots. But, I do like the idea of some flexibility.


QuoteAs for low-level skills for hobbies and tinkering, I believe ALL characters should have some crafting ability, and if their chosen guild/subguild doesn't include specific crafts, then they should get some random craft set at novice, with no chance to improve. This would give everyone the -capacity- to do something for the hell of it that is creative. Not everyone has creative talents, but everyone can whittle wood. So - not everyone can whittle wood into anything useful - but you should be able to whittle it into a toothpick or sliver of wood (which is, in essence, what a toothpick is).

It could be neat to develop some more flavor-skills, with really low-level options. Like the guy who could craft not very well made wood figurines, to keep his hands busy, to use your example. The issue here would be looking at the current subguilds and making sure that giving "hobby skills" to those without them wouldn't lessen the strength of the subguild. A hobby skill should be just for flavor, and not get you anywhere, practically speaking.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on October 24, 2015, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 10:54:45 AM

It could be neat to develop some more flavor-skills, with really low-level options. Like the guy who could craft not very well made wood figurines, to keep his hands busy, to use your example. The issue here would be looking at the current subguilds and making sure that giving "hobby skills" to those without them wouldn't lessen the strength of the subguild. A hobby skill should be just for flavor, and not get you anywhere, practically speaking.



I like this idea. I've always knitted, but I can only do squares and rectangle shapes for as long as I can remember. Some people don't get to advanced.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 24, 2015, 11:12:27 AM
Conceptually I wouldn't be opposed to the ability to gain a couple skills to the apprentice level for "hobby" purposes, but the thing is you can already RP doing that if you want to.  There's nothing that says you have to engage all your character's skills from day one and begin using them immediately.  The way the code for the game is set up, you have a tree of skills that is dictated by your guild and subguild.  You can't learn anything outside that tree, except for the few skills that are possible for everyone to learn - for example pilot.

Yes, it's true that staff can manually adjust what skills a character has - but we don't have time to be pouring over countless pages of "logs" to determine whether someone has invested sufficient time and effort to learn woodcarving or whatever.  It'd be rough for one person - but take into account that everyone would want to do it, and now you have to do it times fifty or one hundred.

People already try to attach these mega-logs sometimes to other types of requests just to show us how "X" went down, and they're always trying to be helpful - appreciated!  But.. the attempt to be helpful is misguided because the logs are such a pain to manage, and again from a time perspective it's just not possible for everyone to read through them.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 24, 2015, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
Thread Ideas and Suggestions Not Addressed Yet

I updated this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203) with all the stuff that staff did address. It's a pretty neat list. Also, I think it's pretty awesome that Jave is going to edit some room descriptions (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908531.html#msg908531) based on this thread. Great stuff!

This change is done and already in game, by the way.  ;)

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
Staff doesn't have to address everything on this list my any means, but if they do want to, this is intended to make it easier to do so.

I'll take cracks at different ones as time permits me.

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Staff Communication - Improve staff communication by having standards of polite and courteous behavior; possibility of developing guidelines/requirements staff-side

While I'm not sure if it's been codified anywhere in the staff resources, there is a culture of airing on the side of politeness even in the face of rude behavior among the staff. I can think of a few examples of staff blowing up on a player but it's always at the tail end of a long stream of abuse, and they're so few and far between I could probably count them on my fingers without ever needing to get to my toes.

We do have codified rules regulating how we interact with players in the game, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have some drafted to guide conduct during correspondence as well, but overall I think communication is quite polite and courteous already, especially in light of some of the correspondence we receive.

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Requests and OOC Communication Requirements - Either streamlining processes that require requests, or making it clearer why steps are needed, enabling players to feel more productive about requests. Possibility of making guidelines for how long typical requests take (and having staff contact to say that they're working on it, if it's taking longer). Perhaps a way to include better separation/clarity of IC/OOC on results ("You are free to pursue this in game. However, your character would have heard...")

There are already guidelines for how long typical request turnaround should be, and new storytellers like myself who are on a 3 month probation period are assessed at the end of that time by how quickly we turned requests around, among other factors.

I agree however, that it would be more friendly if we dropped players a line every couple of days to let them know that their request is still being worked on. A lot of notes that players cannot see get added to the requests they submit by different staff members before a reply is ever given to a player so from our perspective a request can look like it's still busy with a lot of correspondence being had back and forth among ourselves while we might forget that from the perspective of the submitting player it's been radio silence for four to five days.

And every once in awhile, a request does honestly slip through the cracks and a week later someone will note something to the effect of: Crap I thought we replied to this person already! I'll write one up as soon as I get home from work!

It happens rarely, but it happens. We're human.

But odds are, if you don't get a reply the first few days of your request submission, it's not because it's being ignored, it's because it's being discussed, information is being researched/created, etc.

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Advertising Plots Better - Enabling more wide-spread advertising of plots, perhaps cultivating a presence on other MUD forums to do so (ex: voting forums). The goal is to capture some of the interest and player involvement that HRPTs or larger plots have had, or enable those not currently involved with Arm to see how active it is (and thus get interested in participating)

One of our staff members is actually already working on this, due to the feedback you all provided.

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Staff Initiative on More Plots (Small Scale) - The sense that not all staff plots need to be big, sometimes staff can just take an idea and roll with it. The sense that more spontaneous or small-level staff-initiated plots or "things to do" would be welcomed. Possibly including more low-level animations, or possibly enabling things that could lead to larger plots if players chose to pursue them.

We already come up with these kinds of plots ourselves. There are 2 that I am already involved in, plus another 3 that players initiated and I'm supporting. But they aren't as quick and easy to roll out here as they are in a table top setting for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 24, 2015, 06:09:16 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 24, 2015, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
I updated this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203) with all the stuff that staff did address. It's a pretty neat list. Also, I think it's pretty awesome that Jave is going to edit some room descriptions (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908531.html#msg908531) based on this thread. Great stuff!

This change is done and already in game, by the way.  ;)

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
Staff doesn't have to address everything on this list my any means, but if they do want to, this is intended to make it easier to do so.

I'll take cracks at different ones as time permits me.

That's awesome. Thanks for taking the initiative on that change, and for taking the time to respond to this.



Quote from: Jave on October 24, 2015, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Staff Communication - Improve staff communication by having standards of polite and courteous behavior; possibility of developing guidelines/requirements staff-side

While I'm not sure if it's been codified anywhere in the staff resources, there is a culture of airing on the side of politeness even in the face of rude behavior among the staff. I can think of a few examples of staff blowing up on a player but it's always at the tail end of a long stream of abuse, and they're so few and far between I could probably count them on my fingers without ever needing to get to my toes.

We do have codified rules regulating how we interact with players in the game, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have some drafted to guide conduct during correspondence as well, but overall I think communication is quite polite and courteous already, especially in light of some of the correspondence we receive.

I think that in the last few years, staff has had a lot of good communication. I kind of rambled about it previously (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg909130.html#msg909130).

But, there's still player concerns that staff is snarky or rude at times (this came up on the very first page of this thread). I think some of that is because if you're treated rudely once, it lingers for a very long time, which can be part of it. I think the other part of it is when people only get part of the story, or only see when staff snap, instead of everything leading up to it. I get the idea that the OOC perception of staff behavior can be a lot worse then what's actually happening.

I don't think that guidelines to help staff in communication would be bad.

Personally, I also think that it wouldn't be bad for us players to also work on developing some expectations for how we address staff as well. Communication is a two-way thing. Maybe that's something us players could work on in the collaboration section, something of a "Guide to Communicating with Staff", if there's an interest in that.



Quote from: Jave on October 24, 2015, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Requests and OOC Communication Requirements - Either streamlining processes that require requests, or making it clearer why steps are needed, enabling players to feel more productive about requests. Possibility of making guidelines for how long typical requests take (and having staff contact to say that they're working on it, if it's taking longer). Perhaps a way to include better separation/clarity of IC/OOC on results ("You are free to pursue this in game. However, your character would have heard...")

There are already guidelines for how long typical request turnaround should be, and new storytellers like myself who are on a 3 month probation period are assessed at the end of that time by how quickly we turned requests around, among other factors.

I agree however, that it would be more friendly if we dropped players a line every couple of days to let them know that their request is still being worked on. A lot of notes that players cannot see get added to the requests they submit by different staff members before a reply is ever given to a player so from our perspective a request can look like it's still busy with a lot of correspondence being had back and forth among ourselves while we might forget that from the perspective of the submitting player it's been radio silence for four to five days.

And every once in awhile, a request does honestly slip through the cracks and a week later someone will note something to the effect of: Crap I thought we replied to this person already! I'll write one up as soon as I get home from work!

It happens rarely, but it happens. We're human.

But odds are, if you don't get a reply the first few days of your request submission, it's not because it's being ignored, it's because it's being discussed, information is being researched/created, etc.

I think that suggestion/desire from the playerbase really had three parts: (Your answer mostly addressed point 2, so I'll respond there!)



A Way for Players to Feel More Productive About Requests

I actually think that this is fine, myself. I've never felt that there's a lot of hoops to jump through to get from point A to B. For me, requests are about keeping your staff informed and updated on what you're doing, so they can help make the world react to what you're doing, thus helping assist with plots.

But a lot of people do seem to think that there's just way too much "red tape" (the first page of this thread, the very first post, is about this). I guess I'd be curious on what people would like to do to improve things?

Or did we kind of address that? I know that one example was Patuk's tribe, but he felt that things were fine--In fact, he felt that part of the issue was that his format was massive and unformatted. Nyr talked about how the guidelines that were established to clarify what staff needed, and make the process smoother.



Guidelines for Request Turnaround Time

(Responding to Jave for this section now, readers can refer back to the last quote if needed.)

First of all, I had no idea that new staff was assessed by how much time it takes them to do request turnaround. That's pretty neat.

I know that personally, when staff has been taking longer on requests and just either keeps me updated or says why it took awhile ("sorry, I'm currently moving cross country!" or "sorry, I had to investigate about your question!"), I'm really understanding. We can all relate to life events, and if there's extra work to figure something out, I know I appreciate it.

I also always assume that any standard request takes at least a week, with more for the unusual ones (complaints, special apps, so on). When staff come in with a reply faster then a week, I'm always pretty impressed.



Inclusion/clarification on if a refusal is OOC or IC

What did you think about this point, Jave?

The suggestion/discussion of it was in regards to that whole pages and pages of using Nauta's tree as an example, with this (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908440.html#msg908440) as the primary post that informed the inclusion of it on the list. Basically, just a way for staff to better separate out if a response is IC or OOC.



Quote from: Jave on October 24, 2015, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Advertising Plots Better - Enabling more wide-spread advertising of plots, perhaps cultivating a presence on other MUD forums to do so (ex: voting forums). The goal is to capture some of the interest and player involvement that HRPTs or larger plots have had, or enable those not currently involved with Arm to see how active it is (and thus get interested in participating)

One of our staff members is actually already working on this, due to the feedback you all provided.

Awesome! Could you elaborate at all, or is it still being finalized?



Quote from: Jave on October 24, 2015, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Staff Initiative on More Plots (Small Scale) - The sense that not all staff plots need to be big, sometimes staff can just take an idea and roll with it. The sense that more spontaneous or small-level staff-initiated plots or "things to do" would be welcomed. Possibly including more low-level animations, or possibly enabling things that could lead to larger plots if players chose to pursue them.

We already come up with these kinds of plots ourselves. There are 2 that I am already involved in, plus another 3 that players initiated and I'm supporting. But they aren't as quick and easy to roll out here as they are in a table top setting for obvious reasons.

I will update the original post to reflect this. Thanks for the response!

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nergal on October 24, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 06:09:16 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 24, 2015, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Advertising Plots Better - Enabling more wide-spread advertising of plots, perhaps cultivating a presence on other MUD forums to do so (ex: voting forums). The goal is to capture some of the interest and player involvement that HRPTs or larger plots have had, or enable those not currently involved with Arm to see how active it is (and thus get interested in participating)

One of our staff members is actually already working on this, due to the feedback you all provided.

Awesome! Could you elaborate at all, or is it still being finalized?

I can elaborate on it. I'm going to be handling advertising efforts for our MUD on Top Mud Sites and Mud Connector. This will involve an initial posting for the game itself as well as advertisements for player and staff run RPTs and HRPTs. This will be targeted primarily toward gaining new players, though hopefully it will also get the attention of past players as well.

Here is our advertising thread on Mud Connector: http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=79536.0
I have been waiting about a week for approval on the TMS forum, hopefully that comes in soon. I am eager to advertise our game on these MUD communities.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 24, 2015, 07:04:31 PM
Quote from: Nergal on October 24, 2015, 06:39:53 PMI can elaborate on it. I'm going to be handling advertising efforts for our MUD on Top Mud Sites and Mud Connector. This will involve an initial posting for the game itself as well as advertisements for player and staff run RPTs and HRPTs. This will be targeted primarily toward gaining new players, though hopefully it will also get the attention of past players as well.

Here is our advertising thread on Mud Connector: http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=79536.0
I have been waiting about a week for approval on the TMS forum, hopefully that comes in soon. I am eager to advertise our game on these MUD communities.

Thanks for the update!

I have updated the list (//http://) to reflect this. I also included the link you provided. If you want to update everyone when TMS finally approves you with a link to the thread, I'd be happy to include that as well.  :)

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Lizzie on October 24, 2015, 07:12:18 PM
It's there for anyone to see.

Looks good too!
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 24, 2015, 07:13:15 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 24, 2015, 11:12:27 AM
Conceptually I wouldn't be opposed to the ability to gain a couple skills to the apprentice level for "hobby" purposes, but the thing is you can already RP doing that if you want to.  There's nothing that says you have to engage all your character's skills from day one and begin using them immediately.  The way the code for the game is set up, you have a tree of skills that is dictated by your guild and subguild.  You can't learn anything outside that tree, except for the few skills that are possible for everyone to learn - for example pilot.

Yes, it's true that staff can manually adjust what skills a character has - but we don't have time to be pouring over countless pages of "logs" to determine whether someone has invested sufficient time and effort to learn woodcarving or whatever.  It'd be rough for one person - but take into account that everyone would want to do it, and now you have to do it times fifty or one hundred.

People already try to attach these mega-logs sometimes to other types of requests just to show us how "X" went down, and they're always trying to be helpful - appreciated!  But.. the attempt to be helpful is misguided because the logs are such a pain to manage, and again from a time perspective it's just not possible for everyone to read through them.

Hmmm. I could see where that would make a lot of extra staff work that would give very little back by way of results.

Maybe there could be more discussion on a better way to do this, that would have less intense staff work. For now, I have updated the post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203).

Thanks for the reply!

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Adhira on October 24, 2015, 07:37:02 PM
The following is part of the information that is given to new storytellers when they are joining staff.  These are from the storyteller 'probation information', there are other things that STs do, but these are the primary ones that new STs do/learn in their 3 month probation and outline the expectations our staffing team has.  You might find it interesting/helpful!

QuoteStorytellers duties:

- Approve new character applications
- Resolve requests for assigned clans, keeping to the 5 day turnaround expectations
- Login to the game port as their staff avatar on a regular basis (at least 3x per week or 10 hours).
- Respond to idb questions from staff within a 1 - 2 day timeframe.
- Report regularly on the idb on your clan group
- Animate as appropriate to support your clan group
- Animate the world to enhance ambience and environment
- Work with clan group on ongoing and in process plots/storylines
- Work on proposed/sponsored game projects
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 25, 2015, 12:28:29 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 06:09:16 PM

I think that in the last few years, staff has had a lot of good communication. I kind of rambled about it previously (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg909130.html#msg909130).

But, there's still player concerns that staff is snarky or rude at times (this came up on the very first page of this thread). I think some of that is because if you're treated rudely once, it lingers for a very long time, which can be part of it. I think the other part of it is when people only get part of the story, or only see when staff snap, instead of everything leading up to it. I get the idea that the OOC perception of staff behavior can be a lot worse then what's actually happening.

I don't think that guidelines to help staff in communication would be bad.

Personally, I also think that it wouldn't be bad for us players to also work on developing some expectations for how we address staff as well. Communication is a two-way thing. Maybe that's something us players could work on in the collaboration section, something of a "Guide to Communicating with Staff", if there's an interest in that.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have official rules in place for how staff are expected to handle players in correspondence, to codify what is already culture, but I'm doubtful it would have much impact on the perception of staff, for the same reasons you describe.

I'm actually a bit wary of having players develop some guidelines for communicating with staff though, to be honest. I worry that ritualizing the way in which staff need to be addressed and vice versa reinforces the perception of a divide between the staff and the players. I want players to feel comfortable speaking to us the way we should feel comfortable speaking to the DM of our local table top game.

The only rules I think we need to govern correspondence is a very general: Don't be an asshole.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 25, 2015, 12:31:37 AM
Bitchy players gonna bitch.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 25, 2015, 12:51:08 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 06:09:16 PM
I think that suggestion/desire from the playerbase really had three parts: (Your answer mostly addressed point 2, so I'll respond there!)

  • A way for the playerbase to understand what steps are needed, to feel productive about requests
  • Guidelines for Request Turn Around
  • Inclusion/clarification on if a refusal is OOC or IC


A Way for Players to Feel More Productive About Requests

I actually think that this is fine, myself. I've never felt that there's a lot of hoops to jump through to get from point A to B. For me, requests are about keeping your staff informed and updated on what you're doing, so they can help make the world react to what you're doing, thus helping assist with plots.

But a lot of people do seem to think that there's just way too much "red tape" (the first page of this thread, the very first post, is about this). I guess I'd be curious on what people would like to do to improve things?

Or did we kind of address that? I know that one example was Patuk's tribe, but he felt that things were fine--In fact, he felt that part of the issue was that his format was massive and unformatted. Nyr talked about how the guidelines that were established to clarify what staff needed, and make the process smoother.

I think we addressed that pretty well before. Nauta as well said several times that the explanation and correspondence she received from staff about her tree issue was also perfectly fine and made sense to her. She even asked that the other folks in the thread to stop using it as an example of the red tape and inability to do things they were talking about (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908493.html#msg908493).

I think Majikal's take (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908532.html#msg908532) on how to positively impact the game as a player said it best.

Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 06:09:16 PM
Inclusion/clarification on if a refusal is OOC or IC

What did you think about this point, Jave?

The suggestion/discussion of it was in regards to that whole pages and pages of using Nauta's tree as an example, with this (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908440.html#msg908440) as the primary post that informed the inclusion of it on the list. Basically, just a way for staff to better separate out if a response is IC or OOC.

I think that it's a very good idea to format your character reports with IC and OOC segments to avoid things getting confused. I think there are benefits to both staff and players for doing so.

For players, the benefit when staff do this is that they are less likely to take what we write about the IC reactions of the world as the Word of God. Just because a Guild Boss NPC took your money and agreed to X, doesn't mean with 100% certainty that he isn't planning to betray you. When we can tell you what's happening IC, and then also give you our clearly OOC take as well it might help players to realize that what we write about the IC world isn't always going to be the absolute truth of reality, we are just writing what we think your characters would perceive.

Example

IC: The elves of the tribe you spoke with seem very receptive to your offer and have agreed to provide an escort to the location you've requested in exchange for tribute.

OOC: We're excited to support this RPT for you just remember ... elves are gonna be elves yo.

For staff, the benefit when players do this is that we know if your character actually believes something they are saying/doing IG or if they're running a scam. This can really help us to avoid getting confused about your character's motivations and thought processes and sometimes it can make the difference between us mistakenly thinking you're being a twink about something vs role playing very well.

Example

IC: My character has agreed to show this gemmer how to craft a mon spell component in exchange for X, Y, & Z.

OOC: I've played mages before and I'm pretty sure this guy is looking for the crafting recipe for [redacted], but my current character as you know is a guild ranger and has no idea what any of this stuff is. He's just a desert elf, and is perfectly happy to scam this city bound round ear by making something up.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 25, 2015, 12:55:32 AM
Quote from: Jave on October 25, 2015, 12:28:29 AMI suppose it wouldn't hurt to have official rules in place for how staff are expected to handle players in correspondence, to codify what is already culture, but I'm doubtful it would have much impact on the perception of staff, for the same reasons you describe.

I'm actually a bit wary of having players develop some guidelines for communicating with staff though, to be honest. I worry that ritualizing the way in which staff need to be addressed and vice versa reinforces the perception of a divide between the staff and the players. I want players to feel comfortable speaking to us the way we should feel comfortable speaking to the DM of our local table top game.

The only rules I think we need to govern correspondence is a very general: Don't be an asshole.

I didn't mean it as a ritual or some superstitious "behave like this, or staff will get you!". More guidelines and advice, maybe even with old examples from players, or the like. For example, my advice for communicating with staff would be to never write a response when you're angry. Always wait 24 hours. If you're still mad, wait longer. That way, when responding, you have a clear and level head. Instead of raging, you can outline your points and concerns clearly.

Stuff like that. I don't know if there's an interest or not from my fellow players on that.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 25, 2015, 12:58:06 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 25, 2015, 12:55:32 AM
I didn't mean it as a ritual or some superstitious "behave like this, or staff will get you!". More guidelines and advice, maybe even with old examples from players, or the like. For example, my advice for communicating with staff would be to never write a response when you're angry. Always wait 24 hours. If you're still mad, wait longer. That way, when responding, you have a clear and level head. Instead of raging, you can outline your points and concerns clearly.

Stuff like that. I don't know if there's an interest or not from my fellow players on that.

I hear you. I'd like to think that these are common sense rules that govern the social interactions of grown human beings in general and wouldn't need to be spelled out.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 25, 2015, 01:14:38 AM
Quote from: Jave on October 25, 2015, 12:51:08 AMI think we addressed that pretty well before. Nauta as well said several times that the explanation and correspondence she received from staff about her tree issue was also perfectly fine and made sense to her. She even asked that the other folks in the thread to stop using it as an example of the red tape and inability to do things they were talking about (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908493.html#msg908493).

I think Majikal's take (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908532.html#msg908532) on how to positively impact the game as a player said it best.

The whole tree thing seemed a little less about what actually happened and more player's perception of how things happened. In regards to that, Nergal did make a number of posts to clarify and elaborate, which I felt really wrapped up the whole tree thing well.

I kind of saw this as a different thing, which was less about if people could accomplish anything (the primary worry with the some 2 pages of thread about the tree), and more about the requests that are required to get change. People seem to think it's a lot of work and so on. But Nyr sort of addressed it already, so unless anyone has anything else to say about it, I think we're probably good.


Quote from: Jave on October 25, 2015, 12:51:08 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 06:09:16 PM
Inclusion/clarification on if a refusal is OOC or IC

What did you think about this point, Jave?

The suggestion/discussion of it was in regards to that whole pages and pages of using Nauta's tree as an example, with this (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908440.html#msg908440) as the primary post that informed the inclusion of it on the list. Basically, just a way for staff to better separate out if a response is IC or OOC.

I think that it's a very good idea to format your character reports with IC and OOC segments to avoid things getting confused. I think there are benefits to both staff and players for doing so.

[great examples here]

I liked your examples.

I think something worth saying as well is that as players, if it's unclear if something is IC or OOC, we can also ask for some clarification. Something my staff has done in the past is leave requests open a couple days to give time for any needed response/follow up. I don't know if this is standard practice or not, but I love it and would encourage all staff to consider it as well.



Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 25, 2015, 01:33:12 AM
Quote from: Adhira on October 24, 2015, 07:37:02 PM
The following is part of the information that is given to new storytellers when they are joining staff.  These are from the storyteller 'probation information', there are other things that STs do, but these are the primary ones that new STs do/learn in their 3 month probation and outline the expectations our staffing team has.  You might find it interesting/helpful!

Thanks, that was pretty interesting! I updated the usual post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203) to reflect this and what Jave has outlined.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 25, 2015, 01:46:33 AM

This is all that remains unaddressed from the list:






As per usual, feel free to tackle it or not. Jave's been tackling things at an amazing pace, but if it doesn't get immediately addressed, that's okay too!



Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Adhira on October 25, 2015, 02:44:54 AM
Re: Adding in titles and other small perks - this is something that all clans should have felt some impact from over the last year or two. Most clan staff (STs and Admin) have put in work to try and give titles and perks that have some meaning to various clan roles.  A lot of the clans have avenues that PCs can pursue and roles/titles they can fulfill. Some also have upward movement that may not have been specifically 'advertised' ;)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 25, 2015, 03:35:00 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 25, 2015, 01:46:33 AM
  • Make Playtimes More Available (Better for Offpeakers) - Some way that allows people to see what locale/clans are active during their playtimes. One possibility would be to publish "peaktimes" and "highest offpeak numbers" of areas per month. Note that that may not capture full numbers for areas that are traveled through, or have temporary visitors.

I personally think it would be healthy for the game if it were easier for players to know roughly how many people are around at a given time in a given area. The point of the game is interaction after all. I wonder if there's merit in something like a self reporting database, wherein players could login with their account and answer two simple questions:


Then that information could be anonymously compiled and spit back out to the website so that a curious player could punch in their own play times and see roughly how many other people usually play at that time and in what areas. Then they could make their choices about where to take their character or where to start play with their next one.

If there's interest in such an idea I can put it onto the staff board for some further discussion.

Quote from: Taven on October 25, 2015, 01:46:33 AM
  • Announce RPT Type and Location in Newsfeed Upon Completion - When an RPT is over and done with, stick it in the newsfeed of Armagedon that a specific area had an RPT, as well as what type (social, combat, magick, high-class, low-class, etc). Goal is to better draw attention and interest, and make it more obvious what sections are more active or what types of RPT needs are being filled.

I think that this one dovetails nicely with Nergal's project of reaching out on other MUD Forums. We would probably get much more bang for our buck announcing RPTs there and on the GDB here than we would putting them in the news feed, I feel.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nergal on October 25, 2015, 02:05:44 PM
Quote from: Nergal on October 24, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 06:09:16 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 24, 2015, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
  • Advertising Plots Better - Enabling more wide-spread advertising of plots, perhaps cultivating a presence on other MUD forums to do so (ex: voting forums). The goal is to capture some of the interest and player involvement that HRPTs or larger plots have had, or enable those not currently involved with Arm to see how active it is (and thus get interested in participating)

One of our staff members is actually already working on this, due to the feedback you all provided.

Awesome! Could you elaborate at all, or is it still being finalized?

I can elaborate on it. I'm going to be handling advertising efforts for our MUD on Top Mud Sites and Mud Connector. This will involve an initial posting for the game itself as well as advertisements for player and staff run RPTs and HRPTs. This will be targeted primarily toward gaining new players, though hopefully it will also get the attention of past players as well.

Here is our advertising thread on Mud Connector: http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=79536.0
I have been waiting about a week for approval on the TMS forum, hopefully that comes in soon. I am eager to advertise our game on these MUD communities.

And here is our thread on TMS: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/advertising-players/7472-armageddonmud-murder-corruption-betrayal.html
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 25, 2015, 02:11:55 PM
Quote from: Nergal on October 25, 2015, 02:05:44 PMAnd here is our thread on TMS: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/advertising-players/7472-armageddonmud-murder-corruption-betrayal.html

Updated (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908203.html#msg908203).

For those of you wondering, I'm waiting to respond to everybody else to allow people besides myself to get a word in edge-wise. So to speak.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Old Kank on October 25, 2015, 02:21:19 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 25, 2015, 03:35:00 AM
I think that this one dovetails nicely with Nergal's project of reaching out on other MUD Forums. We would probably get much more bang for our buck announcing RPTs there and on the GDB here than we would putting them in the news feed, I feel.

I wonder if external promotion might not be best saved for HRPTs?  I always find it discouraging to log in for an RPT, see higher-than-average numbers, and still be unable to find people or anything of excitement happening.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Lizzie on October 25, 2015, 02:38:11 PM
Quote from: Old Kank on October 25, 2015, 02:21:19 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 25, 2015, 03:35:00 AM
I think that this one dovetails nicely with Nergal's project of reaching out on other MUD Forums. We would probably get much more bang for our buck announcing RPTs there and on the GDB here than we would putting them in the news feed, I feel.

I wonder if external promotion might not be best saved for HRPTs?  I always find it discouraging to log in for an RPT, see higher-than-average numbers, and still be unable to find people or anything of excitement happening.


Personally, I'd prefer not to have brand new players show up during HRPTs with their 0-hour first character. Why? Because that's more time spent helping new players during a REALLY chaotic time, and less time actually participating in the HRPT. It's also more likely to be MORE confusing for the new player, who has never experienced a normal day in Arm, let alone an HRPT day. It's also more filtering required by the staff during a time when they're preparing for the HRPT. In addition, if the staffers who would normally approve apps, are busy DOING the HRPT, it means those brand new players are not going to get approved and logged in, in time for it. Which means they're more likely to say "eh - they couldn't just let me in right away? Screw that, I'll play something else."
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 25, 2015, 02:55:10 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 25, 2015, 12:28:29 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 06:09:16 PM

I think that in the last few years, staff has had a lot of good communication. I kind of rambled about it previously (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg909130.html#msg909130).

But, there's still player concerns that staff is snarky or rude at times (this came up on the very first page of this thread). I think some of that is because if you're treated rudely once, it lingers for a very long time, which can be part of it. I think the other part of it is when people only get part of the story, or only see when staff snap, instead of everything leading up to it. I get the idea that the OOC perception of staff behavior can be a lot worse then what's actually happening.

I don't think that guidelines to help staff in communication would be bad.

Personally, I also think that it wouldn't be bad for us players to also work on developing some expectations for how we address staff as well. Communication is a two-way thing. Maybe that's something us players could work on in the collaboration section, something of a "Guide to Communicating with Staff", if there's an interest in that.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have official rules in place for how staff are expected to handle players in correspondence, to codify what is already culture, but I'm doubtful it would have much impact on the perception of staff, for the same reasons you describe.

[...]

The only rules I think we need to govern correspondence is a very general: Don't be an asshole.

I really appreciate Jave jumping in and having a go at this issue.  However, I'm a bit worried that Jave's responses here don't really take seriously the player concerns.  The 'perception' here is one that players have developed from actual writings we've seen written to others (my original post on the issue pointed out that there were cases of namecalling and snarkiness in a much publicized case out there on mudconnect) and written to ourselves (while I've had wonderful interactions with some staff, with other staff I've received some really demotivating and discouraging comments).  In my view, denial only fuels the fire.

Part of it is that it isn't just about being 'polite', but about being 'positive' -- I should feel that you can communicate with staff without entering into a hornet's nest of negativity -- and it is also about feeling encouraged, even inspired, to develop characters, get things going, run plots, tell stories, and so on, and not discouraged.  Yes, staff has to say 'no' a lot, and yes they have to even punish players for doing things wrong, in game or out of game.  I can't say it's a job I'd want, but ultimately the game is supposed to be about having fun in a harsh desert landscape -- the out of game experience shouldn't feel equally if not more harsh.  And it does, at least to me.

I've sent some suggestions in a recent staff complaint about cultivating an environment that is encouraging, and I applaud staff who are doing just that.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 25, 2015, 03:40:48 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 25, 2015, 02:55:10 PMI really appreciate Jave jumping in and having a go at this issue.  However, I'm a bit worried that Jave's responses here don't really take seriously the player concerns.  The 'perception' here is one that players have developed from actual writings we've seen written to others (my original post on the issue pointed out that there were cases of namecalling and snarkiness in a much publicized case out there on mudconnect) and written to ourselves (while I've had wonderful interactions with some staff, with other staff I've received some really demotivating and discouraging comments).  In my view, denial only fuels the fire.

Part of it is that it isn't just about being 'polite', but about being 'positive' -- I should feel that you can communicate with staff without entering into a hornet's nest of negativity -- and it is also about feeling encouraged, even inspired, to develop characters, get things going, run plots, tell stories, and so on, and not discouraged.  Yes, staff has to say 'no' a lot, and yes they have to even punish players for doing things wrong, in game or out of game.  I can't say it's a job I'd want, but ultimately the game is supposed to be about having fun in a harsh desert landscape -- the out of game experience shouldn't feel equally if not more harsh.  And it does, at least to me.

I've sent some suggestions in a recent staff complaint about cultivating an environment that is encouraging, and I applaud staff who are doing just that.

I'm assuming you mean this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg908143.html#msg908143). I took Jave's comments on the staff blowing up "always at the tail end of a long stream of abuse" to acknowledge that.

Let me start by saying that everything in that situation is from a single player perspective. Staff has a policy of not responding to that sort of thing. They will not discuss player requests publicly anymore, and so the whole presentation of an issue is one sided--from the view of the person who has a gripe. But, assuming that everything posted by the jilted former player in question is true... Yes, there were definitely times when staff could have responded better. However, I'd agree that it was after "the tail end of a long stream of abuse", as Jave puts it.

It's also worth mentioning that the same former player also admits that Adhira took the time to personally speak with him on Teamspeak, after he requested a discussion. Yes, when a producer was faced with a player that was having trouble, they responded to their request for further communication (taking it beyond just the request tool), and took the time to discuss. That, to me, is incredible. To me, it shows a willingness to put in the extra time and effort.

I feel like this whole thread has really been showing the present staff attitude. I mean, staff actually addressed every point and idea that was brought up in this thread. Every single one! I haven't updated the list to show that yet (people need time to discuss!) and the answer wasn't always a yes... But I think it's incredible that staff has been so actively involved here. If things like this don't help the player perception of staff being warm, listening to ideas, and caring about players and the game, I'm not sure what will.

Final thoughts: I'm personally in favor of written-up staff guidelines on how to respond to players. I think it would be useful, and helpful. I can see Jave's point, too, though--We already have a lot of indications that staff are positive in how they react.


This post was edited to make sure the situation in question better phrased and represented. None of the portions of this post quoted in this thread were modified.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 25, 2015, 05:52:23 PM
At the end of the day, this game is a hobby that we all pursue (both players and staff) and it's entirely possible to go way overboard in codifying everything related to it.  We already have a ton of documentation and there's an overhead associated with maintaining it.  I literally -just- resolved a request from a player that pointed out a gap in one of the helpfiles because of a change in policy (and the policy change isn't even a recent one).
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jihelu on October 25, 2015, 06:08:55 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 25, 2015, 05:52:23 PM
At the end of the day, this game is a hobby that we all pursue (both players and staff) and it's entirely possible to go way overboard in codifying everything related to it.  We already have a ton of documentation and there's an overhead associated with maintaining it.  I literally -just- resolved a request from a player that pointed out a gap in one of the helpfiles because of a change in policy (and the policy change isn't even a recent one).
Could I ask what the change was for funsies/reference?
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Molten Heart on October 25, 2015, 06:49:48 PM
Quote from: Old Kank on October 25, 2015, 02:21:19 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 25, 2015, 03:35:00 AM
I think that this one dovetails nicely with Nergal's project of reaching out on other MUD Forums. We would probably get much more bang for our buck announcing RPTs there and on the GDB here than we would putting them in the news feed, I feel.

I wonder if external promotion might not be best saved for HRPTs?  I always find it discouraging to log in for an RPT, see higher-than-average numbers, and still be unable to find people or anything of excitement happening.



Promotions for specific events should happen weeks or more before the event actually happens, encouraging players to get into the game to establish their character before the event.

It hasn't happened before but advertising for roles for new players might interest some people. For example advertising for Byn mercenaries or other clan entry level roles.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 25, 2015, 08:11:13 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 25, 2015, 02:38:11 PM
Personally, I'd prefer not to have brand new players show up during HRPTs with their 0-hour first character. Why? Because that's more time spent helping new players during a REALLY chaotic time, and less time actually participating in the HRPT. It's also more likely to be MORE confusing for the new player, who has never experienced a normal day in Arm, let alone an HRPT day. It's also more filtering required by the staff during a time when they're preparing for the HRPT. In addition, if the staffers who would normally approve apps, are busy DOING the HRPT, it means those brand new players are not going to get approved and logged in, in time for it. Which means they're more likely to say "eh - they couldn't just let me in right away? Screw that, I'll play something else."

Quote from: Molten Heart on October 25, 2015, 06:49:48 PM
Promotions for specific events should happen weeks or more before the event actually happens, encouraging players to get into the game to establish their character before the event.

I was going to basically write this in response Lizzie, but Molten Heart already covered it. Yes of course it would be difficult for us to deal with 0 hours played newbies during an HRPT, but ideally they would have already had a month or at least a couple weeks since the HRPT announcement to get in game and try to get a handle on the basics.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Dresan on October 25, 2015, 08:23:02 PM
My suggestion is hire a storytelling, no I mean an actual creative writer. Someone who can write a detailed story to take place over a longer span of time.

Again the only storytelling on a global scale going on in this game is when there are coded changes to the game or some major policy change (closing of tuluk). Those aren't bad, they are fun times to play, but story telling shouldn't just be a result of those massive changes. It shouldn't require more then a few global emotes and IC policy changes from time to time.  I would like to see more of that over the long term. I think seeing stuff actually going on in the world whether we are apart of it or not, will make the world feel more alive, and will further inspire people to join in, or plot around it, or plot to avoid it, or just benefit from it.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 25, 2015, 09:08:38 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 25, 2015, 02:55:10 PM
I really appreciate Jave jumping in and having a go at this issue.  However, I'm a bit worried that Jave's responses here don't really take seriously the player concerns. [...]

I just read your staff complaint, and went through and re-read your correspondence with the staff member in question. As Taven has already pointed out, as a rule we don't air this sort of stuff publicly out of respect for both staff and player but I noticed something I think it's important to delve into: I saw nothing in that staff member's correspondence with you that came off to me as negative or hostile.

Now, I am not saying that you're an idiot, or you're being over dramatic or some other slight on your character. I'm not saying that at all. I think there is a perfectly legitimate reason for why you and I both read the same message yet came away with wildly different viewpoints: text is a terrible place to try and read someone else's emotions.

I, being on staff, interact with that staff member on more or less a daily basis. I know their personality and their way of writing much better than you do just by virtue of working closely with them, so I have a very different context from which to infer their tone when I read their writing.

When I referred to staff blowing up on people, the reply you got from the staff member in question is not counted in those examples, nor do I think you were abusing anyone to prompt such an explosion ... ... believe me ... the blow ups I was talking about are not subtle. There's no second guessing the tone of those replies.

Your complaint seems to be primarily hinged not around what the staff member said to you but the way in which you perceive that they said it. You didn't feel it was positive enough.

I don't mean to be dismissive of your concern, but this is a problem that all text based communication suffers from both in work and in personal correspondence as well as on our game. Not being able to adequately read into the tone or emotional delivery of the sender via text is a problem that goes much deeper than Armageddon MUD, it spans telecommunication as a whole, and I'm not sure how we would even begin to try and address that.

We could put guidelines in place that say be positive and concerned and sensitive and civil ... but when the difference is a difference of perception ... and the sender feels their reply was quite civil and sensitive while the receiver feels they're being raked over the coals and skinned alive, it doesn't seem to me that the guidelines would solve the issue.

I realize that this is a problem, but it's a problem multi-billion dollar commercial industries with professional customer support teams struggle with as well. No one has cracked it. The way my own company approaches the problem is to have lots of telephone follow ups to ensure that our clients know our sales team personally, their voice, their personality, etc so that when they receive emails they have a broader context from which to draw the 'tone' out of what they're reading. -- But as you can see that's not really solving the problem, it's going around it. And we still have issues! Just like how friends can get into a tiff with one another over a misread text message, despite knowing one another's personalities very well.

What I do personally to try and minimize this problem, is make it a point to force myself to read text from people in the best possible light I can even if I think I'm giving them way too much of a benefit of the doubt. I'd rather give them more credit than they deserve than the other way around.

Quote from: Taven on October 25, 2015, 03:40:48 PM
Final thoughts: I'm personally in favor of written-up staff guidelines on how to respond to players. I think it would be useful, and helpful. I can see Jave's point, too, though--We already have a lot of indications that staff are positive in how they react.

Seidhr also pointed out another reason why I'm wary about more documentation in this regard.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 25, 2015, 11:40:49 PM
Quote from: Jave on October 25, 2015, 09:08:38 PM
I just read your staff complaint, and went through and re-read your correspondence with the staff member in question. As Taven has already pointed out, as a rule we don't air this sort of stuff publicly out of respect for both staff and player but I noticed something I think it's important to delve into: I saw nothing in that staff member's correspondence with you that came off to me as negative or hostile.

Probably best not to air it publicly then, right?  (Out of respect for the player.)  Just to help you out a bit, the complaint concerned a series of events, all of which I viewed as -- and which were --- negative and discouraging, to the point where I no longer have any desire to play.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 25, 2015, 11:55:27 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 25, 2015, 06:08:55 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 25, 2015, 05:52:23 PM
At the end of the day, this game is a hobby that we all pursue (both players and staff) and it's entirely possible to go way overboard in codifying everything related to it.  We already have a ton of documentation and there's an overhead associated with maintaining it.  I literally -just- resolved a request from a player that pointed out a gap in one of the helpfiles because of a change in policy (and the policy change isn't even a recent one).
Could I ask what the change was for funsies/reference?

The player pointed out that we have split Account Notes requests and Karma Review requests into two separate things.  The 'karma' help file was still referring to Account Notes requests as the way to request a review of one's karma.  This has now been updated to reference the new type of request specifically for reviewing karma.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 26, 2015, 12:16:35 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 25, 2015, 11:40:49 PMProbably best not to air it publicly then, right?  (Out of respect for the player.)  Just to help you out a bit, the complaint concerned a series of events, all of which I viewed as -- and which were --- negative and discouraging, to the point where I no longer have any desire to play.

For what it's worth, I think there's a fair amount of players who have been in that spot in the past. I've been there before. It's not a fun spot to be in.

I agree with you that tone matters. I agree with Jave that text is a terrible medium for tone. I've had situations where I feel like staff took what I felt was an objectively bad tone with me, and it upset me greatly.

Sometimes when I've been that upset that it hampers my enjoyment of the game, I've just taken a break for awhile. Gone away, done something else, and then come back. It's a way to get some distance and feel refreshed.


Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 26, 2015, 12:20:59 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 26, 2015, 12:16:35 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 25, 2015, 11:40:49 PMProbably best not to air it publicly then, right?  (Out of respect for the player.)  Just to help you out a bit, the complaint concerned a series of events, all of which I viewed as -- and which were --- negative and discouraging, to the point where I no longer have any desire to play.

For what it's worth, I think there's a fair amount of players who have been in that spot in the past. I've been there before. It's not a fun spot to be in.

I agree with you that tone matters. I agree with Jave that text is a terrible medium for tone. I've had situations where I feel like staff took what I felt was an objectively bad tone with me, and it upset me greatly.

Sometimes when I've been that upset that it hampers my enjoyment of the game, I've just taken a break for awhile. Gone away, done something else, and then come back. It's a way to get some distance and feel refreshed.




Presumably, the reason why staff has the policy of not airing staff complaints is, at least in part, because you don't get the full story.  In this case, you don't even get part of the story.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Taven on October 26, 2015, 12:32:41 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 26, 2015, 12:20:59 AMPresumably, the reason why staff has the policy of not airing staff complaints is, at least in part, because you don't get the full story.  In this case, you don't even get part of the story.

You're right, I have no context. I don't know what the issue is, or what it surrounds, or what the circumstances are. I know that you wanted a better tone, though, from your own words. I can tell you that I agree with you that tone matters, and I can tell you that while right now, staff have been amazing in my interactions with their tone, that this hasn't been true all the time. In the past, I've been upset about it.

I hope my last response didn't make it sound like I was belittling your situation, because that wasn't at all the intent. It just sounds like you're in a hard spot, and a spot I can relate with. You filed a complaint about it, and so presumably staff are considering it and working on a resolution. But you're upset, and I'm not saying "oh go away!!" I'm saying "hey, it can help to get some space and distance--I know because it's helped ME before". And I guess there's just not a lot more advice I can give, past that.

There was a long time ago when staff didn't have a firm policy about not airing complaints. Essentially, a player was complaining on the GDB about an issue they had with staff, and a staffer got sick of it. They got tired of not responding. So, they posted the full request and situation on the GDB. There were a lot of different reactions to that. A lot of people agreed with the staff choice in the request, but a lot of people also really disagreed that it was okay to just drag up player's situations like that. I don't know if the rules were changed directly after that or not, but that's part of the history of the reason for the change. Staff doesn't do that anymore out of regards for the players. That's my take on it.

Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Jave on October 26, 2015, 12:53:14 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 25, 2015, 11:40:49 PM
Probably best not to air it publicly then, right?  (Out of respect for the player.)  Just to help you out a bit, the complaint concerned a series of events, all of which I viewed as -- and which were --- negative and discouraging, to the point where I no longer have any desire to play.

I'm sorry if you feel as though I was touching on something in your actual staff complaint. That was not my intent. My reply was in reference to this:

Quote from: nauta on October 25, 2015, 02:55:10 PMThe 'perception' here is one that players have developed from actual writings we've seen written to others (my original post on the issue pointed out that there were cases of namecalling and snarkiness in a much publicized case out there on mudconnect) and written to ourselves (while I've had wonderful interactions with some staff, with other staff I've received some really demotivating and discouraging comments).  In my view, denial only fuels the fire.

Part of it is that it isn't just about being 'polite', but about being 'positive' -- I should feel that you can communicate with staff without entering into a hornet's nest of negativity -- and it is also about feeling encouraged, even inspired, to develop characters, get things going, run plots, tell stories, and so on, and not discouraged.  Yes, staff has to say 'no' a lot, and yes they have to even punish players for doing things wrong, in game or out of game.  I can't say it's a job I'd want, but ultimately the game is supposed to be about having fun in a harsh desert landscape -- the out of game experience shouldn't feel equally if not more harsh.  And it does, at least to me.

Emphasis mine. Please take my reply as a response to those points, rather than any specifics of what you wrote in your particular complaint.

However, since you did make it clear that you had recently filed a complaint yourself about the points you raised above:

Quote from: nauta on October 25, 2015, 02:55:10 PM
I've sent some suggestions in a recent staff complaint about cultivating an environment that is encouraging, and I applaud staff who are doing just that.

I did reference your complaint in my own reply tangentially, but in an attempt to assure you that I was familiar with and understood where you were coming from, before going into the broader concept you raised in your post and what my thoughts on it were. Mainly: Perceptions of tone can differ wildly from person to person in a text format without either party being "the one who did something wrong".

Please take my reply in that light.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nyr on October 26, 2015, 08:48:46 AM
Quote from: Taven on October 26, 2015, 12:32:41 AM
There was a long time ago when staff didn't have a firm policy about not airing complaints. Essentially, a player was complaining on the GDB about an issue they had with staff, and a staffer got sick of it. They got tired of not responding. So, they posted the full request and situation on the GDB. There were a lot of different reactions to that. A lot of people agreed with the staff choice in the request, but a lot of people also really disagreed that it was okay to just drag up player's situations like that. I don't know if the rules were changed directly after that or not, but that's part of the history of the reason for the change. Staff doesn't do that anymore out of regards for the players. That's my take on it.

I can think of three times in particular.  We don't do it anymore.  Here's why.

Quote from: Nyr on December 16, 2014, 08:42:26 AM
4)  Not only would it be better for this to be brought up in a request, that's also the only way this will ever get addressed for a specific player; it's not a matter of staff opinion but a matter of policy that we're in discussion on at this time.

Adhira mentioned that we were discussing that earlier, that we'd not bring up player account related issues on the GDB.  That has been done before a few times.  Even if brought up by players first each time, it doesn't really serve a purpose for us to provide context to someone's claims about their account or how they were treated by staff.  It never ends well, it looks more vindictive than intended (providing a defense against someone's accusations they chose to make public), and it just drags everyone else down.  However, since we're going to be looking at a specific policy on that, I don't know how we can address your point here at all because it cuts both ways. 

We can't and won't discuss someone else's account issues with you.  Not here, not via request, not via e-mail.  That's between them and us.

Now, if you snipe at staff repeatedly on the GDB over stuff (whether it's settled or completely made up), we'll just ban you from the GDB.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 26, 2015, 10:21:58 AM
I think one good change might be the equivalent of a "No-Wish" lock being put on accounts who can't responsibly use the request tool.

If someone is a penis-head in their requests and attack staff repeatedly to the point it would get them banned from the game, instead, we should put a "No Request" lock on their account.

(Presumably you would also get banned from the GDB obviously.)

That way you can't submit requests. You can't post on the GDB.

But so long as you still play your characters responsibly in the game and play them well you can still play the game (obviously just not roles that require requests....of which there are many).

If the problem isn't their play but is instead their OOC personality then we could continue to let them play without subjecting staff to their OOC abuse.

Just a thought.

They might stick around for another year. Play a few indie rangers or whatever. Forget about whatever it was that made them angry so long ago, and once they got unbanned they would still be a valued player who has still been playing and is now cooled off enough to use the request tool responsibly.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: nauta on October 26, 2015, 11:02:41 AM
Quote from: Jave on October 26, 2015, 12:53:14 AM
Quote from: nauta on October 25, 2015, 11:40:49 PM
Probably best not to air it publicly then, right?  (Out of respect for the player.)  Just to help you out a bit, the complaint concerned a series of events, all of which I viewed as -- and which were --- negative and discouraging, to the point where I no longer have any desire to play.

I'm sorry if you feel as though I was touching on something in your actual staff complaint. That was not my intent.

Oh, ok.  I had thought you were commenting on the staff complaint.  I'd say if you want to follow-up on the complaint-y part of the complaint, blast me something privately -- I had wanted to point you to the positive suggestions part of it.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Riev on October 26, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
When I first starting playing this game (Almost Olden Times, Halaster WAS still around but... eh) I was told how great the game was, and how you could "do anything". One example was that my mentor at the time was playing a fire elementalist, and someone was chasing them, so they wished up and explained the situation and that they wanted to jump out of a window in the room description, and got some aid.

I'm NOT saying that can't happen now, because I know it can. The difference is, back then someone saw that wish, came down immediately and helped along the story. Now, there's so many plots that people are aching to be a part of, that any staff attention at all is seen as "staff pets" and the red tape is duct tape. If I were to say there's a major difference between the two times, that is it.

I remember stories of people making virtual deals that legitimately had Half Giants bringing in chests FULL of obsidian coins, and I remember bringing in wood for Ourla's Templar who, I found out later, was using it to set traps for the Copper Wars or something equally awesome.

Lately, the stories I remember are "Well, we killed some spiders again" and "I guess that gith was kinda neat".
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 26, 2015, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 26, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
When I first starting playing this game (Almost Olden Times, Halaster WAS still around but... eh) I was told how great the game was, and how you could "do anything". One example was that my mentor at the time was playing a fire elementalist, and someone was chasing them, so they wished up and explained the situation and that they wanted to jump out of a window in the room description, and got some aid.

I'm NOT saying that can't happen now, because I know it can. The difference is, back then someone saw that wish, came down immediately and helped along the story. Now, there's so many plots that people are aching to be a part of, that any staff attention at all is seen as "staff pets" and the red tape is duct tape. If I were to say there's a major difference between the two times, that is it.

I remember stories of people making virtual deals that legitimately had Half Giants bringing in chests FULL of obsidian coins, and I remember bringing in wood for Ourla's Templar who, I found out later, was using it to set traps for the Copper Wars or something equally awesome.

Lately, the stories I remember are "Well, we killed some spiders again" and "I guess that gith was kinda neat".

Uh, stuff like that does still happen.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: bcw81 on October 26, 2015, 02:19:09 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 26, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
When I first starting playing this game (Almost Olden Times, Halaster WAS still around but... eh) I was told how great the game was, and how you could "do anything". One example was that my mentor at the time was playing a fire elementalist, and someone was chasing them, so they wished up and explained the situation and that they wanted to jump out of a window in the room description, and got some aid.

I'm NOT saying that can't happen now, because I know it can. The difference is, back then someone saw that wish, came down immediately and helped along the story. Now, there's so many plots that people are aching to be a part of, that any staff attention at all is seen as "staff pets" and the red tape is duct tape. If I were to say there's a major difference between the two times, that is it.

I remember stories of people making virtual deals that legitimately had Half Giants bringing in chests FULL of obsidian coins, and I remember bringing in wood for Ourla's Templar who, I found out later, was using it to set traps for the Copper Wars or something equally awesome.

Lately, the stories I remember are "Well, we killed some spiders again" and "I guess that gith was kinda neat".

I remember the story of a Tuluki army that raided the fortress of Ten Serak and eventually razed the Allanaki encampment there because of PC initiative. That was less than 6 months ago.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 26, 2015, 02:48:42 PM
Going further back, there was PC-driven Allanak attack on the Tuluki cottonfields that would have involved a dozen PCs and upwards of a hundred (V)NPC soldiers riding in to battle.

Of course, all the PC-initiative in the world doesn't do much good if there isn't a single person (PC or NPC) in the Arm of the Dragon with direction sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqicgFjSD8U
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Riev on October 26, 2015, 03:18:26 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 26, 2015, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 26, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
I'm NOT saying that can't happen now, because I know it can.
Uh, stuff like that does still happen.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: seidhr on October 26, 2015, 03:25:11 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 26, 2015, 03:18:26 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 26, 2015, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 26, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
I'm NOT saying that can't happen now, because I know it can.
Uh, stuff like that does still happen.

So I just want to make sure I understand...

Your post is saying that you are unhappy that this stuff doesn't happen, but when reassured that it does still happen, you quote your own post and make it clear that you understand it can happen?

??? ??? ???
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: wizturbo on October 26, 2015, 04:48:39 PM
Cool things can happen today, as evidenced by numerous posts.  But it requires work to make it happen.  Want to get a plot off the ground?  The quote box below is a fairly brief synopsis of what's required in my experiences:  

(skip the quoted section if you don't care about reading about process and want to cut to the heart of my argument)

Quote

1)  Staff Supported Idea

To get staff support on an idea, this is generally what's needed:

  • The idea needs to be ICly appropriate to the setting, that means it has to get past the staff round table without any objections
  • The idea has to be ICly something your in-game superiors would support, unless it's something you're doing without their support, or if you have no superiors
  • The idea has to include enough players that it's worth the time investment to work on it
  • The idea has to feasible to support with whatever resources are available

2)  PC Leadership

At least one person needs to initiate the idea in-game.  Be it hiring/commanding people to do things, or suggesting things be done to someone who can.  These leaders basically become both IC and OOC project managers for "the idea", handling all of the scheduling with players and staff, coming up with detailed plans on what is or isn't going to be done, ectera.  It's akin to planning a party across multiple time zones, using nothing but text messages, and if you're lucky, a message board where you can post extremely vague things.  

"Party on Saturday night!  At the place you might know about.  Bring shovels." -FML Sponsored-Leader-Guy

And then after the project management stuff goes down, these are also the people who have to lead ICly.  They need to make sure the group doesn't get separated because Amos the newbie doesn't have a ride skill to keep up.  They need to way 15 people to get them to do X and Y and Z things.  They need to make sure the right things are done in-game before/after/during the event in question.  It feels something like actually throwing the party I referenced above, through nothing but text messages.

3)  Staff Leadership

After all of these things have happened, at least one staff member has to take up the project and do all the staff work behind the scenes.  That work might be as simple as creating a single echo in a room somewhere, or might be as complicated as building new rooms and NPCs, and controlling those NPC's in a combat situation.  The staff leadership also has to come at the right scheduled time, and they have to communicate with each other and players in order to make it all go off without a hitch...  Oh, and about the "hitch"...  If something goes wrong during "the idea" they're the ones that have to deal with the aftermath.  A PC dies to less-than-ideal code?  They get to spend hours writing messages back and forth with the affected players trying to smooth things over.  A PC chooses to do something they didn't expect, and now they have a bunch of work to do to set up the next phase in "the idea" to account for it.


4)  Players Participating

And lastly, after all this work, players have to show up and participate.  Scheduling helps for this, but all kinds of things can get in the way of player attendance.   They show up, they have fun (hopefully) and then they wonder when the next shindig is...  Or they don't show up, and all the work above was essentially wasted, or postponed to try again.  This section also includes the possibility that someone ICly kicks over your sandcastle and wrecks the project sending it back to the drawing board or cancelling it.  


^^^^
Is what I had to do for many of my "ideas".  Some I got all the way through the process, some I quit partway through on because of either IC or OOC reasons.  Credit to staff for rarely telling me "no" to any of my ideas, and most of the ones I carried through to the end resulted in some good times, but it's absolutely exhausting.  It's logical, it's fair, but it's exhausting to make things happen.  It isn't red tape...  It's just the process.  It's the process required for a player driven plot model.  Which, at least in my humble opinion, is the heart of the problem.  Player led plots are a ton of fucking work for everyone involved.  Personally, I want staff led plots.  Not because they're better (although I'd argue they often are), but because they're easier.  

If plots were primarily staff led, you could cut all of #1 out of the process, and most of #2.  It also simplifies #3 because they don't have to work within the context of what a player's vision is for said thing.  They can build their plots however they like, keeping them as simple as they like or as complex as they dare.  It would ultimately boil down the whole process to something so much cleaner and easier:  

"Staff dream up cool shit, players show up and participate in said cool shit".  

Maybe what players do influence what the staff choose to do, it would probably make the plots feel more fun and interactive if they did.  Staff could look to player actions to come up with inspirations for their "cool shit".  But even if they don't, and it's just their own thing without player input, I would be okay with that.  I'd rather see more things going on that I cannot materially effect the outcome of, than have rare things happen that semi adjust to what players choose.  Maybe staff work on player driven plots part time (following the model above), or maybe they just invest that time into making their staff led plots even bigger and more bad ass.  

I know there are staff led plots today, but I'd rather see more of those, and not have them spending their time helping PC's achieve their dreams of getting their own tree, or even helping me on my plots!  I'm fine with staff not having time for my plots, if it means I can participate in theirs instead!  Sign me up.

Anyhow, that's my two cents, and my beating of a long, long dead horse that i won't really ever let die.  
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nyr on October 27, 2015, 11:13:17 AM
Quote from: Desertman on October 26, 2015, 10:21:58 AM
I think one good change might be the equivalent of a "No-Wish" lock being put on accounts who can't responsibly use the request tool.

If someone is a penis-head in their requests and attack staff repeatedly to the point it would get them banned from the game, instead, we should put a "No Request" lock on their account.

(Presumably you would also get banned from the GDB obviously.)

That way you can't submit requests. You can't post on the GDB.

But so long as you still play your characters responsibly in the game and play them well you can still play the game (obviously just not roles that require requests....of which there are many).

If the problem isn't their play but is instead their OOC personality then we could continue to let them play without subjecting staff to their OOC abuse.

Just a thought.

They might stick around for another year. Play a few indie rangers or whatever. Forget about whatever it was that made them angry so long ago, and once they got unbanned they would still be a valued player who has still been playing and is now cooled off enough to use the request tool responsibly.

We lack the code to do that, and to a large degree we lack the desire to code that.

I'm not saying we won't ever code in this kind of support.  However, maybe you can understand why we aren't welling up with the desire to create this distinction between players that habitually/repeatedly act terribly to those that staff this game, and players that act terribly within the game.

I'd be more in favor of coming up with an update to the rules helpfile, and cover everything that matters, as well as how different types of things will be handled.  And yes, communicating responsibly is something that matters...the bar isn't really set that high.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Desertman on October 27, 2015, 11:18:15 AM
Quote from: Nyr on October 27, 2015, 11:13:17 AM
Quote from: Desertman on October 26, 2015, 10:21:58 AM
I think one good change might be the equivalent of a "No-Wish" lock being put on accounts who can't responsibly use the request tool.

If someone is a penis-head in their requests and attack staff repeatedly to the point it would get them banned from the game, instead, we should put a "No Request" lock on their account.

(Presumably you would also get banned from the GDB obviously.)

That way you can't submit requests. You can't post on the GDB.

But so long as you still play your characters responsibly in the game and play them well you can still play the game (obviously just not roles that require requests....of which there are many).

If the problem isn't their play but is instead their OOC personality then we could continue to let them play without subjecting staff to their OOC abuse.

Just a thought.

They might stick around for another year. Play a few indie rangers or whatever. Forget about whatever it was that made them angry so long ago, and once they got unbanned they would still be a valued player who has still been playing and is now cooled off enough to use the request tool responsibly.

We lack the code to do that, and to a large degree we lack the desire to code that.

I'm not saying we won't ever code in this kind of support.  However, maybe you can understand why we aren't welling up with the desire to create this distinction between players that habitually/repeatedly act terribly to those that staff this game, and players that act terribly within the game.

I'd be more in favor of coming up with an update to the rules helpfile, and cover everything that matters, as well as how different types of things will be handled.  And yes, communicating responsibly is something that matters...the bar isn't really set that high.

I'm just a player and not a staffer so my priorities are different seeing as how my feelings aren't apt to get hurt and I'm not apt to be personally attacked by a player who's a dick.

But yes, I can see how staff might have a different point of view on these players since you are "in the line of fire" so to speak.

Still, if they aren't able to send abuse your way, and are able to play the game, as a player and not a staffer I still vote for this option.

(My vote doesn't count because I'm not actually doing the work, but it's there.)
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Dresan on October 27, 2015, 11:45:12 AM
I would suggest you avoid touching those 'rules' anymore then they have to be. The more those rules are defined, the more like nitpicking asses you end up sounding. This is from experience of having to read other people's rules in other games.

The only people that will be referring to those rules are new players after, since only 'IC policy' changes (ex.rape) are already spoken about here in great detail. The meanness rule within the game is already at the limit of how snarky things should be sounding.


That said if you were to add on last rule, it should be more of a comment. Something like this:

This is a game. A passionate hobby we all come together as a community to create. Without players the game is not worth playing, at all. Without staff, who were all former players, the game cannot run, at all. Lets work together to make this an enjoyable game for everyone.


I think if people remembered that golden 'rule' above, then this thread would be more about how we could make things exciting and enjoyable ICly in game.

Now back to IC matters, despite what Seidhr said, I still completely agree with Reiv's sentiment.  :-[  
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Nyr on October 27, 2015, 12:07:34 PM
Rule 1 seems fine.  Rules 3-5 can be combined into one "rule" if you can even call it a "rule" to explain how the world works.  A new rule could be added to detail an expectation of communicating reasonably, and to lay out how repeated negative/harassing/shitty communication to staff or players won't be tolerated (warning, short ban, long ban, perm ban, whatever).  Rule 6 would then be rule 4.  Rule 7 can be added as a subset of rule 1 for easier reading.  Rules 8 and 9 would become rules 5 and 6, respectively.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Dresan on October 27, 2015, 12:31:38 PM
It sounds fair, if you are condensing them then that wouldn't be so bad.  

You should add a 'Have fun' rule with a happy face in it. Seriously.

The only ones that read that will be potentially new players who we really want to at least take the time to try the game. The way things are said and laid out needs to cater to them the most. And from what I've read on other forums this game with its RPI status is very intimidating to new players already, not to mention the GDB and its negative and sometimes cruel comments probably don't help matters either.

I know people want to fall back to those rules like if they were some sort of contract but unfortunately people here tend to use the 'we are just human' phrase as an excuse to treat each other badly instead of the reason to treat each other with respect. Again changing those rules don't effect anyone thats already been playing here for any period of time so in this case lets consider the new player first before anyone else.
Title: Re: A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times
Post by: Molten Heart on October 27, 2015, 12:52:55 PM
I appreciate what staff do in trying to create a better game. I know it's a thankless and difficult job to do, especially one they choose to do in their spare time. While I don't show it that much, I've been excited about this game ever since the "Reborn" game was canceled and this game was put back on the front burner again. I believe this game has a lot of value that's been created from the many staff and players contributing it over the years and with the new additions and changes being made I'm encouraged, believing the game can become even better. While there are many areas where the game needs some work, I'm glad the staff continue to strive to understand players needs, in communicating with players while also making an effort to keep the world dynamic and interesting, focused not as much on creating a perfect game as creating the perfect role playing experience for their players.