So this is something I'm personally interested in and haven't yet seen represented in the game or the documentation. Then again, I've only recently come back from my retirement. Where are all the transsexuals of Zalanthas?
In before someone points out that the tech/knowledge doesn't exist. I would assume that it does. Since ancient times people have been using herbs and the glands of animals to alter their hormone levels, or consuming the crystalized urine of teenage girls, pregnant women, and pregnant mares for estrogen. So the means to alter one's secondary sexual characteristics is probably there, whether from spice, herbs, animal parts, or teenager pee, and there will be those who seek it out. It might not be as effective as modern day drugs, and nothing short of magick is going to alter your junk, but a little makeup and confidence can probably take you the rest of the way.
What about transsexuals in society though? Are there people who value them as high-class escorts? Tribes that revere their duality? Has anyone played one or role-played with one? I want details and lurid speculation!
I've seen a couple people over the years play out-and-out hermaphrodites, though that's obviously different from a transexual.
Since you don't have modern medicine or any kind of accessible transmogrification magic you can't really 'transition' so the 'trans' in 'transexual' doesn't really work. I would be very interested in reading about ancient sex transition techniques that you claim existed, but I'm very dubious about their veracity.
I assume cross-dressers exist, and men living as women, and also women living as men. It's not out of theme. It's just probably that players haven't been enthused about this concept.
I'm no expert, but aren't transexuals individuals who are one gender, but feel as though they are psychologically another gender and lend themselves more towards the characteristics of that gender?
If all males and females are physically on the same playing field, and there are no gender stereotypes (regardless of what the playerbase plays because they are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the population and the exception) then what would they "relate to"?
If males and females have no gender role stereotypes, then how would we even "know" they were transexuals to begin with?
Is it a matter of, "I feel like a woman because I feel like I should have a vagina for some reason."?
It can't be, "I feel like a woman because I have always just felt more girly and feminine and more like I should be woman-like.".
It can't be number two because men and women don't fit gender roles in this game. They don't exist.
Masculine and feminine are fundamentally only related to "having a vagina" or "having a penis".
So while there might be transexuals...I don't think they would fit the real world connotations we usually associate transexuals with.
Men trying to "act more feminine" because they believe they are women.
or
Women trying to be more 'butch" because they believe they are men.
In Zalanthas, women act no different from men, and men no differently from women on the "gender role" and "stereotypical gender qualities" playing field.
The only difference is either a vag or a tandu sausage, and that's it.
So I think there might be transexuals on Zalanthas, you would just never know unless they came out and said, "Hey man, you know, I feel like I should have a dick, and I don't know why.". Because really, there would be zero other indicators to even go off of.
(In Zalanthas things like dresses, skirts, pants, etc...etc...wouldn't be gender specific. Men would wear dresses and heels all day and it would be normal, even if the playerbase doesn't always play it that way.)
I don't know, I have thought about it and since we are told that there are no differences between the sexes except for the physical (and quite a few of the physical differences are not present either!) and that what we would think of as classical "femininity" and "masculinity" would not be associated with any particular sex, I would not think that transgender people would be such a "thing" on Zalanthas. Yes, I know that being transgendered is biological, and biological sex exists on Zalanthas, but what does it mean to have always "felt like a girl" on Zalanthas, when the sexes are almost identical? Maybe people who like to dress in clothing that is traditionally worn by the opposite sex, sure, although I'm not sure that would be seen as all that strange, either. Maybe some people would like to stuff their pants or their shirt, but it's just...weird to me to think about being transgendered in a world where gender identity means so little.
HOWEVER, we're also told that a big reason that we have total gender equality on Zalanthas is so that female players feel comfortable playing whatever role they want to play, and don't feel bogged down by RL sexism, which is another driving factor behind the no-homophobia rule, as well. So, while I am not staff, I have a suspicion that staff would want transgendered people to feel comfortable as well.
Yeah, Dman, I played a skirt-wearing man once and I tried to play it off as normal, but no one treated it that way! Everyone looked at him like a complete freak. It really wasn't my intention to play him as a "cross-dresser." It was just his fashion choice.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:17:58 AM
Yeah, Dman, I played a dress-wearing man once and I tried to play it off as normal, but no one treated it that way! Everyone looked at him like a complete freak.
I remember him. He was awesome and hilarious.
Keep in mind what the playerbase does doesn't matter in terms of the lore most of the time. The PC's in game are .000001% of the population. Them calling out your dude in drag was the exception and arguably the odd behavior. (But you know that. I'm just stating it.)
Quote from: Erythil on August 07, 2015, 12:11:34 AM
I assume cross-dressers exist, and men living as women, and also women living as men. It's not out of theme. It's just probably that players haven't been enthused about this concept.
You see crossdressing every once in a while, though it seems less common now than it used to be. As for the actual hormone adjustments, I think most people wouldn't have thought of using natural means for it.
This conversation makes me want to play a "cross-dresser" in that vein again.
i wear skirts so it's easier for me to grab my dick when i walk into the gaj.
pst me family role, beet
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:14:31 AMIs it a matter of, "I feel like a woman because I feel like I should have a vagina for some reason."?
Pretty much
Quote(In Zalanthas things like dresses, skirts, pants, etc...etc...wouldn't be gender specific. Men would wear dresses and heels all day and it would be normal, even if the playerbase doesn't always play it that way.)
The playerbase -never- plays it that way and I don't buy that they should. Even if the sexes are equal it doesn't mean there aren't cultural distinctions between them. Since no one's whipping out their junk and showing it off (usually), you need indicators to tell people whether you're a man or a woman so that they can pursue or ignore you appropriate. Transsexuals generally want the opposite indicators.
I don't think they would exist only because gender roles don't exist nor do the concepts of "masculine" and "feminine".
You can't, "feel like a girl".
You can, "feel like I should have a vagina".
Girls and Boys in Zalanthas are exactly the same with the exception of what's in the crotch. Outside of that, there are no differences. They think the same way. They perform the same way. They even look the same way minus breasts (and not always) and crotch-things.
Being a transexual in Zalanthas would just mean you feel like your crotch should be different, since psychologically you are ALREADY the same in every way.
Quote from: EvilRoeSlade on August 07, 2015, 12:25:00 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:14:31 AMIs it a matter of, "I feel like a woman because I feel like I should have a vagina for some reason."?
Pretty much
Quote(In Zalanthas things like dresses, skirts, pants, etc...etc...wouldn't be gender specific. Men would wear dresses and heels all day and it would be normal, even if the playerbase doesn't always play it that way.)
The playerbase -never- plays it that way and I don't buy that they should. Even if the sexes are equal it doesn't mean there aren't cultural distinctions between them. Since no one's whipping out their junk and showing it off (usually), you need indicators to tell people whether you're a man or a woman so that they can pursue or ignore you appropriate. Transsexuals generally want the opposite indicators.
Dresses aren't any more for girls than chitin breastplates are for men in Zalanthas.
If we want to start assigning gender roles to clothing, we can, but we have to do it across the board, not just where we feel comfortable personally.
Absolutely.
I don't think that cross-dressers = transexuals.
Transexuals in the way EvilRoeSlade is talking about would probably be deemed mutants I'm thinking.
A woman with a penis would be a mutant, since there's no real way she could have a surgery to have one attached medically speaking.
There's also no real surgical way for a man to end up with breasts and alter his physiology enough to pass for a woman without massive trauma to his body.
There are indicators on some of the clothing descs that say whether or not the articles appear to be made for a woman or a man, so I would say that at this time, at least, Zalanthan fashion appears to be gender-specific. I would say that "cross-dressing" could be seen as a fashion choice, a personality quirk, a novelty, a hobby, or "meh," but definitely not OMG WTF THAT MAN IS WEARING A DRESS. Should it really be weirder for a man to be wearing the "feminine" shoes than it is for a woman to be wearing the "masculine" shoes? On Earth, it's more acceptable for women to wear traditionally "masculine" clothes, at least in Western society, but all things should be equal on Zalanthas, really.
But we digress.
I'm more inclined to wonder if eunuchs would exist on Zalanthas than transgendered people as we know them. That seems very thematic, actually.
Kojiro Fale was a cross dresser sometimes.
More recently there was a Kadian who cross dressed. I've never seen someone labeled that. I'd say it's an underplayed thing considering how many PLAYERS are transexuals here. Guess they wanna play something OTHER than themselves in game?
Revered? I wouldn't say so.
Valued as escorts? I wouldn't say that has anything to do with transgender and more to do with an individual character, like whores or concubines. There's no entity of transgendered escorts.
I'd say they'd be as accepted as gays and straights are in the known, that they're totally normal. Rare (as in represented in the game world rare) perhaps, like eunuchs, but normal. I'd add that (imo) any character shunning them is reacting against docs.
One thing you could do is play in a tribe that does have gender roles. Some of the tribes break the general Zalanthan mold and have distinct positions for male and female.
(An Arabetti male>female transgender would be so much fun!)
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:31:48 AM
There are indicators on some of the clothing descs that say whether or not the articles appear to be made for a woman or a man, so I would say that at this time, at least, Zalanthan fashion appears to be gender-specific. I would say that "cross-dressing" could be seen as a fashion choice, a personality quirk, a novelty, a hobby, or "meh," but definitely not OMG WTF THAT MAN IS WEARING A DRESS. Should it really be weirder for a man to be wearing the "feminine" shoes than it is for a woman to be wearing the "masculine" shoes? On Earth, it's more acceptable for women to wear traditionally "masculine" clothes, at least in Western society, but all things should be equal on Zalanthas, really.
But we digress.
I'm more inclined to wonder if eunuchs would exist on Zalanthas than transgendered people as we know them. That seems very thematic, actually.
The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.
If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it (or a mutant man with breasts...or a really fat man with boobies).
It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.
A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:25:58 AM
Being a transexual in Zalanthas would just mean you feel like your crotch should be different, since psychologically you are ALREADY the same in every way.
Are they the same in every way, though? I am kind of with you on this, as indicated by my previous posts, but there are still some differences. The voices are still pitched differently on Zalanthas (I assume,) and women have child-bearing hips (I assume,) breasts, and no facial hair (for the most part!) A lot of times male puberty is very traumatic for MTFs, because they start sprouting all this facial hair, and their voices drop, and they wish they were getting breast buds like their female friends their age, but...nope.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:34:59 AM
The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.
If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it.
It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.
A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.
I specifically mentioned the shoes because that's obviously not the case for them.
Quote from: Malken on August 07, 2015, 12:30:51 AM
I don't think that cross-dressers = transexuals.
True.
QuoteThere's also no real surgical way for a man to end up with breasts and alter his physiology enough to pass for a woman without massive trauma to his body.
Not even a little true.
Quote from: EvilRoeSlade on August 07, 2015, 12:39:27 AM
QuoteThere's also no real surgical way for a man to end up with breasts and alter his physiology enough to pass for a woman without massive trauma to his body.
Not even a little true.
In a world like Zalanthas? Come on..
Just the fact that we might start wondering if people living in a crazy dangerous world attempting to survive on a day to day basis would start wondering about their sexual identity is pushing it a bit, imho.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:39:27 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:34:59 AM
The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.
If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it.
It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.
A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.
I specifically mentioned the shoes because that's obviously not the case for them.
I know the shoes you mean, and they are only "masculine" because that is the OOC descriptor for the player to visualize them.
Nobody in game on the IC level will look at them and say, "Those are boy shoes.".
They only have that sdesc as a OOC descriptor....the same way you will sometimes see people with "sky-blue eyes" even though we have no blue sky in Zalanthas, or "ice-colored hair", even though they have never seen ice.
So on and so forth. It's an OOC descriptor thing, not an IC thing.
Quote from: Malken on August 07, 2015, 12:41:41 AM
Quote from: EvilRoeSlade on August 07, 2015, 12:39:27 AM
QuoteThere's also no real surgical way for a man to end up with breasts and alter his physiology enough to pass for a woman without massive trauma to his body.
Not even a little true.
In a world like Zalanthas? Come on..
Just the fact that we might start wondering if people living in a crazy dangerous world attempting to survive on a day to day basis would start wondering about their sexual identity is pushing it a bit, imho.
I think it's plausible, but they wouldn't treat it like we're used to. "Oh, I just always -felt- like a woman." Some sort of tribal 'two-spirit' type thing makes more sense to me and reeks less of modernity and first-world problems.
(Now, mind you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having always felt like a woman, but we're allowed to just pursue how we
feel because we live comfortably, which is why that sounds so Western and modern to our ears.)
Oh man.
I blinked and this thread grew almost an entire page.
Great question ERS (and welcome back) but so help me the rest of you if you mess up this thread or turn it into a spiral of nonsensical flaming I'll find you and I'll kill you I'll politely ask you to stop, and moderate any offensive posts.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:43:23 AM
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:39:27 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:34:59 AM
The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.
If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it.
It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.
A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.
I specifically mentioned the shoes because that's obviously not the case for them.
I know the shoes you mean, and they are only "masculine" because that is the OOC descriptor for the player to visualize them.
Nobody in game on the IC level will look at them and say, "Those are boy shoes.".
They only have that sdesc as a OOC descriptor....the same way you will sometimes see people with "sky-blue eyes" even though we have no blue sky in Zalanthas, or "ice-colored hair", even though they have never seen ice.
So on and so forth. It's an OOC descriptor thing, not an IC thing.
Are you sure? I have heard it argued both ways on these boards. I personally imagined it meant that it was a style more commonly worn by men. I mean, certain styles do appear to be worn more by men and others by women. If you go around looking at NPCs, the male ones tend to wear pants. I don't think I have seen a male one with a skirt and high heels. I wish there were more "cross-dressing" male NPCs, but alas, they seem to be lacking. If it is the intention to convey that all styles are worn equally by both genders, the NPC world does not appear to be conveying that any better than the PC world.
Seriously, though, eunuchs.
I have no comment on the idea of transitioning in game without modern medicine and science to aide in that process.
It's a world full of magick, so, anything is possible I guess.
My only comments are related to the idea that transexuals wouldn't exist in game the way they exist in real life when we think about a stereotype for a transexual.
They wouldn't "dress up as the other gender", because there are no gender roles on clothes.
They wouldn't, "act like a boy or a girl", because we all act the same.
They wouldn't "think they felt like a girl or a boy", because psychologically we are all exactly the same on the same playing field.
The absolute only way they could be a transexual would be at the bare base core of wanting either a wang, or a vag, and that's it.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:48:02 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:43:23 AM
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:39:27 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:34:59 AM
The clothes are only gender specific in the regard that they are made to fit a body type.
If it is a feminine-breastplate, that just means it has been made with areas for the breasts of a woman with breasts on it.
It means absolutely nothing about the gender roles of clothing or the connotations of such in terms of roleplay.
A feminine-breastplate is made in the same way you would make a "obese-breastplate". If a mutant man was born with large floppy boobs, and wore a feminine-breastplate, nobody would bat an eye. He would just be wearing gear designed for his body type. They might raise a brow at him being a mutant, but not his choice of clothing...that would be normal for him.
I specifically mentioned the shoes because that's obviously not the case for them.
I know the shoes you mean, and they are only "masculine" because that is the OOC descriptor for the player to visualize them.
Nobody in game on the IC level will look at them and say, "Those are boy shoes.".
They only have that sdesc as a OOC descriptor....the same way you will sometimes see people with "sky-blue eyes" even though we have no blue sky in Zalanthas, or "ice-colored hair", even though they have never seen ice.
So on and so forth. It's an OOC descriptor thing, not an IC thing.
Are you sure? I have heard it argued both ways on these boards. I personally imagined it meant that it was a style more commonly worn by men. I mean, certain styles do appear to be worn more by men and others by women. If you go around looking at NPCs, the male ones tend to wear pants. I don't think I have seen a male one with a skirt and high heels. I wish there were more "cross-dressing" male NPCs, but alas, they seem to be lacking. If it is the intention to convey that all styles are worn equally by both genders, the NPC world does not appear to be conveying that any better than the PC world.
Seriously, though, eunuchs.
I'm fine with us starting to assign gender roles in game and assigning gender roles to clothing as such. Trust me, I would personally be more comfortable and I find most PC's play that way anyways.
Cross-dressing wouldn't even be a term that would exist on Zalanthas unless you were "dressing like an elf".
But the fact is, we don't. If we want to start we can, but for now, it just isn't a thing in Zalanthas.
Seems weird to me that there are no dresses that I have seen that are described as cut for a male body type, as in someone with no breasts, then. :P
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:52:23 AM
Seems weird to me that there are no dresses that I have seen that are described as cut for a male body type, as in someone with no breasts, then. :P
*shrug* You are preaching to the choir. I'm only stating what is....even if there is a lot of evidence in game that suggests not everyone is comfortable playing what is.
MOST people prefer playing traditional gender roles in game from what I have found, at least to one extent or the other.
Very few are the women I see who go full on "man"...even less are the men I see who go full on "woman".
Still, dresses aren't for women any more than armored gauntlets are for men. IRL...sure...in game, not at all. Is that jarring? Yeah. Do A LOT of people feel more comfortable going with what's "normal" to them...and do a lot of items reflect that preference? Yes....but that doesn't change the lore.
Man, I dunno why I feel like I need to say that I'm super liberal irl (must be Lauramars' threat! ;p) but I still think that transexuals (again, not cross-dressers) would be deemed mutants and not someone that would be praised for being "different", otherwise, what is a mutant and what isn't on Zalanthas then?
Mutants -
Biology.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.
2.
the act or process of changing.
3.
a change or alteration, as in form or nature.
Isn't that what a trans-sexual is? Someone that is going against its biological nature (either by choice or not?)
Great! Now I wrote that transexuals are mutants ;p
Yeah, I agree, we're talking past each other, even though we're kind of on the same page. But if the lore is "there are just as many men waltzing around in dresses as there are prancing around in pants" (which I agree there should be, based on what staff has said before about there being no difference between the sexes, culturally speaking,) then I don't understand why the NPCs that staff wrote up to reflect the game world and the atmosphere and the culture do not reflect this. It's sort of confusing, and I think it's because I think it's not so much about "lore" as it is about the fact that everyone is allowed to play whatever kind of character they want, adhering to or bending or breaking whatever gender norms they wish.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 01:06:05 AM
Yeah, I agree, we're talking past each other, even though we're kind of on the same page. But if the lore is "there are just as many men waltzing around in dresses" (which I agree there should be, based on what staff has said before,) then I don't understand why the NPCs that staff wrote up to reflect the game world and the atmosphere and the culture do not reflect this. It's sort of confusing, because I think it's not so much about "lore" as it is about the fact that everyone is allowed to play whatever kind of character they want, adhering to or bending or breaking whatever gender norms they wish.
Likely because we don't have a lot of people who are cross-dressers IRL or transexuals writing up NPC's. People tend to write up what they are comfortable with and relate to personally or would "find fun" personally, if they were playing that NPC.
I don't think we should read anything into it in terms of the lore and gender roles in game....NPC's are still .000001% of the population anyways.
This thread has inspired me to be the change I want to see. And the change I want to see is more eunuchs.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 01:09:27 AM
This thread has inspired me to be the change I want to see. And the change I want to see is more eunuchs.
My next PC: (will report everyone who looks at him funny or makes comments about his fashion choices in game)
(http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=684937&d=1368649789)
Oh, I'm looking at him funny, all right. And by "funny," I mean "lasciviously."
I'm looking through the fashion docs right now. "Bisht" and "kilt" are specifically mentioned as being made for men. It says that the kilt is worn by men "because of the freedom it offers," hint hint, but I don't see why a skirt wouldn't be the same, or why women wouldn't like kilts as well. I dunno, man, I feel like skirt-wearing men are perfectly thematic and all--once again, I played one--but I'm just saying, I do think some fashions might be more commonly worn by one gender over another.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 01:18:39 AM
Oh, I'm looking at him funny, all right. And by "funny," I mean "lasciviously."
I'm looking through the fashion docs right now. "Bisht" and "kilt" are specifically mentioned as being made for men. It says that the kilt is worn by men "because of the freedom it offers," hint hint, but I don't see why a skirt wouldn't be the same, or why women wouldn't like kilts as well. I dunno, man, I feel like skirt-wearing men are perfectly thematic and all--once again, I played one--but I'm just saying, I do think some fashions might be more commonly worn by one gender over another.
If staff wants to chime in and say we are now assigning gender roles to clothing...I'm on board heh. I just don't think that is going to happen.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 01:23:07 AM
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 01:18:39 AM
Oh, I'm looking at him funny, all right. And by "funny," I mean "lasciviously."
I'm looking through the fashion docs right now. "Bisht" and "kilt" are specifically mentioned as being made for men. It says that the kilt is worn by men "because of the freedom it offers," hint hint, but I don't see why a skirt wouldn't be the same, or why women wouldn't like kilts as well. I dunno, man, I feel like skirt-wearing men are perfectly thematic and all--once again, I played one--but I'm just saying, I do think some fashions might be more commonly worn by one gender over another.
If staff wants to chime in and say we are now assigning gender roles to clothing...I'm on board heh. I just don't think that is going to happen.
Clothing has and always will be gender specific until the documents say otherwise and males start wearing gowns and bras. And when kilts are called skirts or vice versa. We use the terms we understand in real world and men don't wear panties... unless they're transgendered or cross dressers.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 01:23:07 AM
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 01:18:39 AM
Oh, I'm looking at him funny, all right. And by "funny," I mean "lasciviously."
I'm looking through the fashion docs right now. "Bisht" and "kilt" are specifically mentioned as being made for men. It says that the kilt is worn by men "because of the freedom it offers," hint hint, but I don't see why a skirt wouldn't be the same, or why women wouldn't like kilts as well. I dunno, man, I feel like skirt-wearing men are perfectly thematic and all--once again, I played one--but I'm just saying, I do think some fashions might be more commonly worn by one gender over another.
If staff wants to chime in and say we are now assigning gender roles to clothing...I'm on board heh. I just don't think that is going to happen.
I'm just pointing out that it's actually in the documentation. Staff obviously has "chimed in," because they put those tendencies into the docs. It's not something that is "now" happening--it looks like those descriptions have been there for a while. If they're outdated, they can be updated. I don't think anyone would be seen as a weirdo for wearing a kilt as a female, but it looks like they're supposed to usually be worn by males, just like IRL.
I have always interpreted the 'no gender roles' moreso to mean that women can fulfill traditionally male roles, and that men can be effeminate without it raising eyebrows.
I think it's pretty clear that cross-dressing, although it would be tolerated, would be by no means the norm. In a world without gender roles, for instance, what would be so thrilling about a man wearing a bra? It's just an unnecessary garment.
If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?
Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.
With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.
I just want to know what staff has to say.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 01:52:40 AM
If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?
Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.
With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.
I just want to know what staff has to say.
I don't think that is true. Something can be slightly uncommon without being jarring enough to be called freakish, especially when the genders are not really much of a dividing line, anyway. Just because something is a trend to be worn by one gender or another doesn't mean it's crazy or bizarre for the other sex to wear it. And I know you want to hear from staff directly rather than some noobish player like me, but no matter whether or not some clothes have a gender association, I do not think staff would look fondly on anyone berating someone for wearing gender-bending clothes.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 01:52:40 AM
If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?
Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.
With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.
I just want to know what staff has to say.
It can certainly be unusual, or outlandish.
There is gender-neutral clothing and gender-specific clothing, but there's no huge taboo if the specifics are bent a bit. That's the way I see it.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 01:52:40 AM
If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?
Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.
With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.
I just want to know what staff has to say.
You can make a character that berates people for anything, an asshole is an asshole. What you CANNOT (I mean you CAN but it's against the docs) do is make fun of a male for wearing a dress or a woman for wearing a breech-guard because they're supposed to be treated equally, without sexism. Being gender BIAS is against the rules. Now if your character is a prick and just doesn't like dresses, sure, berate away. But unless you create an ic reason for your character to look down on people who wear specific clothing, you making fun of a man for wearing a dress is a real life prejudice/sexism.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it would be seen as sexism. Because you'd have to think: what would you be berating a man in a dress for, actually, even if it's determined that dresses are, for whatever reason, much more commonly worn by Zalanthan women? Would you be making fun of him for...looking like a woman? Because that would not be seen as "weak" or "fragile" or "pansy-ass" on Zalanthas. If you're giving him shit for wanting to look like a woman, that edges dangerously close to sexism. I guess you could make fun of him for wearing fancy floofy impractical clothes, just as long as you'd make fun of a woman in the same outfit, or a man in an equivalent vest and breeches set.
Now, if he likes dressing up like an elf, and he's not some sort of performer...there's definitely something wrong with that!
Given Armageddon's complete lack of gender roles/norms/expectations ... I'm hard pressed to think of what would stand out about a transsexual in the first place.
I've seen furries come into the game, why not a transexual?
Really though, playing a trans in Armageddon wouldn't add much to the world for me, it'd likely start jarring conversations in the tavern, ooc hurt feelings and be a general annoyance in it's mere existence. Not because it's a transexual pc, but because I don't think enough players would understand how to handle it and those that didn't handle it right would annoy me to the point of avoiding it alltogether.
Edited by Nyr. Please don't use such epithets to describe transexuals.
Just several pieces of information on the subject, in no particular order, written in isolation and not connected to any of the other posts in this thread:
~ The selection of male or female at character creation determines your character's presentation. It codedly results in assigning your character's pronouns and what other players will assume your character's sex is at a glance. It is not tied to anything physiological or psychological about your character - you are free to play your character as you wish. This is in line with our policy of zero sexual dimorphism in our currently playable races.
~ Characters can still experience body dysmorphia and attempt to attain an outward appearance that is in-line with their wishes. Just because men and women in Zalanthas can possess any sort of body type doesn't mean individuals cannot feel uncomfortable with their body.
~ It is our policy that the only prejudices to be RP'd out in game are those that only exist in game, or which don't exist outside of the game. Thus characters that discriminate based on the colour of a person's skin, their apparent gender or their sexuality will be just as maligned as those who discriminate because the way a character presents doesn't match their 'biological sex'. While I said these points would be presented in isolation I do want to add that calling these people 'mutants' to get around this is not appropriate.
~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.
To piggyback on that same bit from Rathustra, I've played at least one male NPC that wore items deliberately sdesced as "feminine" because he thought they were stylish. They fit his body better (or at least, he thought so).
I don't see why trans people wouldn't exist in Zalanthas. Just because the gender roles are equal doesn't mean you couldn't be born feeling that your sex doesn't fit who you are. Transzalanthas just wouldn't have the benefits of hormones or surgery. And not all trans people choose to take hormones or have surgery even when they're available.
Quote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM
~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.
Do the docs that say that kilts and bishts (aside from the Atrium uniform, I'd presume) are typically male garments need to be updated, then? Is Dman right that there are pretty much exactly as many Zalanthan men wearing dresses as there are men wearing pants and vests? I am not implying that a man wearing a dress should be prejudiced against in any way, but it does seem that the clothing descs, NPCs, and docs do not reflect absolute 100% gender-neutral fashion and an "everything is worn equally by everybody at all times" environment, if that is the imms' intention. (I don't even think I saw Nyr's NPC wearing a kalasiri or a wrap-skirt! And even if he did, he'd be the first one I ever saw!)
Quote from: ShaLeah on August 07, 2015, 02:12:01 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 01:52:40 AM
If clothing is gender-specific, then when I see someone who is wearing clothing that isn't the "norm for their gender" in game...can I call them a weirdo and berate them?
Either clothing doesn't conform to gender roles, or it does. You can't have it both ways.
With one of these, I'm not allowed to call down a guy for wearing a dress, with the other, I can.
I just want to know what staff has to say.
You can make a character that berates people for anything, an asshole is an asshole. What you CANNOT (I mean you CAN but it's against the docs) do is make fun of a male for wearing a dress or a woman for wearing a breech-guard because they're supposed to be treated equally, without sexism. Being gender BIAS is against the rules. Now if your character is a prick and just doesn't like dresses, sure, berate away. But unless you create an ic reason for your character to look down on people who wear specific clothing, you making fun of a man for wearing a dress is a real life prejudice/sexism.
I'm not talking about berating them because I don't like their style. I'm talking about berating them because they are wearing clothes that aren't for their gender. That and only that.
Either I can or I can't. One of those means clothing has gender-roles associated with in Armageddon, and one doesn't.
You can't have it both ways.
Edited to Add: Just realized I replied to this without seeing staff already weighed in. Oops.
Quote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM
~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.
Pretty sure she can, in fact, have it both ways ;)
Quote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM
~ It is our policy that the only prejudices to be RP'd out in game are those that only exist in game, or which don't exist outside of the game. Thus characters that discriminate based on the colour of a person's skin, their apparent gender or their sexuality will be just as maligned as those who discriminate because the way a character presents doesn't match their 'biological sex'. While I said these points would be presented in isolation I do want to add that calling these people 'mutants' to get around this is not appropriate.
~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.
Edit to add: damn your edit!
Quote from: valeria on August 07, 2015, 10:09:04 AM
Pretty sure she can, in fact, have it both ways ;)
Quote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM
~ It is our policy that the only prejudices to be RP'd out in game are those that only exist in game, or which don't exist outside of the game. Thus characters that discriminate based on the colour of a person's skin, their apparent gender or their sexuality will be just as maligned as those who discriminate because the way a character presents doesn't match their 'biological sex'. While I said these points would be presented in isolation I do want to add that calling these people 'mutants' to get around this is not appropriate.
~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.
Edit to add: damn your edit!
You realize this backs my point right? My point is that there are zero grounds in game to roleplay out calling out someone for wearing anything they want to wear because the very concept of "those are man's clothes" or "those are women's clothes".....doesn't even exist.
You should consider clothing styles as neither masculine, nor feminine, because they aren't....they are just made to fit a body type.
You can't have it both ways.
You can berate a man for wearing a dress that doesn't fit him. But only because he chose a dress that doesn't fit him. He can wear any dress he wants and it will be absolutely normal so long as the dress actually fits him.
I got sidetracked. The reason the clothing issue matters to the OP is that it will set in a lot of ways the "precedent" for how transgendered characters are presented in game.
In real life if there is a transgendered person of the male to female persuasion, we generally associate certain characteristics with them.
For example, the above transgendered person in question would stereotypically do things like....wear make up, put on a feminine hairstyle, and start wearing "female clothing"...and usually try to alter the pitch of their voice to be more "feminine".
(http://photos.vanityfair.com/2015/06/22/55882524ca2dc24e4d26ef9a_caitlyn-jenner-july-2015-vf-06.jpg)
In Armageddon, a male to female transgendered individual WOULD NOT do those things....because those things aren't associated with females in Zalanthas any more than they are with men. They wouldn't run around wearing dresses because dresses are "girly"...they wouldn't put on makeup because makeup is "girly", and they wouldn't "grow their hair out" because it's "girly". All of those things in Zalanthas are just as much for males as they are for females in every single regard. They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.
If we are going to see transgendered individuals in Armageddon (and I'm sure we have before), I just want to make sure they don't start backing false stereotypes in order to "get the point across" that they are transgendered.
There are no stereotypes for them to even "cross" or "go against" or "conform to" in regards to gender roles, including their clothing options.
A transgendered male to female individual wouldn't need to nor would they even want to really change anything about themselves, other than their crotch bits. It wouldn't even be a concept because there already are no differences outside of that.
Quote from: musashi on August 07, 2015, 04:46:19 AM
Given Armageddon's complete lack of gender roles/norms/expectations ... I'm hard pressed to think of what would stand out about a transsexual in the first place.
Pretty much my thoughts on the topic.
Let's not drag this into that old argument again, Desertman.
It's been well established that "masculine" and "feminine" exist, one is simply not better than the other.
I know you love to get off on a tear about how you visualize it, but let's just let that poor horse die.
Quote from: Delirium on August 07, 2015, 10:29:07 AM
It's been well established that "masculine" and "feminine" exist,
I don't think it has. Please quote.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/ae/ae14c7c028252f010a3b4fe325ca757b5fd06dc76f2f903fbaf88c15f81913f0.jpg)
Quote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.
Body shape = masculine, or feminine.
I really don't think we need to make as huge a deal out of this as you're trying to. It's semantics. This has been a good discussion.
Quote from: Delirium on August 07, 2015, 10:34:36 AM
[img width=400 height=300]
*snarky picture removed*
Quote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.
Body shape = masculine, or feminine.
I really don't think we need to make as huge a deal out of this as you're trying to. It's semantics. This has been a good discussion.
You are quoting my exact point. They aren't feminine or masculine in terms of gender roles. They are designed to fit a body shape. The "masculine" and "feminine" descriptors aren't an IC concept. They are an OOC concept to help the player get a visual based on OOC norms and expectations. In Zalanthas, they wouldn't be referred to as masculine or feminine.
If a man with unusually large pecs felt like a "feminine breastplate" was more comfortable for him....it would be absolutely normal for him to wear it and nobody in Zalanthas would find it odd in any regard....unless it actually didn't fit him...then the only thing odd would be his choice of picking armor that didn't fit him.
If a female character wanted to wear this because she found it more "comfortable" personally....nobody would think it was weird, or think she was wearing anything unusual for her gender. IRL it's for a man obviously, in game....it's just a choice of armor. There are no gender roles associated with it.
(http://ep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-87491460501412/steel-breastplate-muscle-armor-dark-brown-5.gif)
The way I read it, you were trying to completely abolish gender roles at all - like I said, it's a semantics thing. Maybe we actually agree, you're just being more hardline about it.
My point is that feminine and masculine DO exist they're just not seen as better or worse. It's a fine distinction.
I'm done.
Quote from: Delirium on August 07, 2015, 10:34:36 AMThis has been a good discussion.
Indeed it has.
Let's pray it continues to be a good discussion.
I think gendered clothing, attitudes, and behavior can exist on Zalanthas, but I also think these things are on a level. Unlike real life, feminine mannerisms are on the same social level as masculine mannerisms.
So while a male acting full out feminine and wearing clothes cut for a female body might be seen as unusual, my take is that the behavior and dress wouldn't be considered bad, weak, sissy, limp-wristed, or any other negative term that is usually applied to feminine behavior. I imagine reactions to cross dressing would raise far fewer eyebrows as a result.
Can you imagine a world in which girly behavior is considered acceptable for everyone? Gosh, Zalanthas is a paradise of equality and I wish I could live there.
Thank you, Laura, that's a much better explanation of what I was trying to say.
Yep, that makes sense to me.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 10:48:32 AM
Quote from: Delirium on August 07, 2015, 10:34:36 AM
[img width=400 height=300]
*snarky picture removed*
Quote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM~ It might be more helpful to consider 'gendered' clothing objects as suiting more a particular body shape. If players want to develop transgressing outfits - we will certainly facilitate those mastercrafts.
Body shape = masculine, or feminine.
I really don't think we need to make as huge a deal out of this as you're trying to. It's semantics. This has been a good discussion.
You are quoting my exact point. They aren't feminine or masculine in terms of gender roles. They are designed to fit a body shape. The "masculine" and "feminine" descriptors aren't an IC concept. They are an OOC concept to help the player get a visual based on OOC norms and expectations. In Zalanthas, they wouldn't be referred to as masculine or feminine.
If a man with unusually large pecs felt like a "feminine breastplate" was more comfortable for him....it would be absolutely normal for him to wear it.
I strongly disagree with the notion of OOC descriptors used in in-game items. How do you refer to that item in-game without delving into an explanation of what it is while avoiding the word
that is meant to help describe the item in question? If a word is not to be used in the Zalanthan world, don't put it in any desc or sdesc. It's as simple as that.
I've read this entire thread plus that other thread where this same discussion went on and apparently this playerbase cannot agree on what gender-neutral means in the world of Zalanthas. It's no wonder it gets reflected in-game and some people are feeling like the gender role neutrality doesn't get represented enough. I can imagine new players being rather confused as to how it should play out in-game as a result.
I don't disagree with either of your points that some things in Zalanthas would obviously be made for a traditional female body type.
I think we even agree on why that matters.
My point is that if "The hulking, brutish man" walked in the Gaj wearing, "a large-breasted, feminine breastplate", nobody would bat an eye because "that's for a girl".
The only thing they would really say is, "You might want to see Salarr about that Amos. Get that taken in a little, it doesn't fit right.".
The reason that matters to the OP is because a transgendered character wouldn't intentionally pick "girly clothes" or "manly clothes"...because there are no girly or manly clothes. There are only clothes that fit, and clothes that don't fit.
Outside of that one scenario, really....nothing else is even on the table. That is the exceptional and I agree....jarring circumstance.
A list of things that wouldn't even be on the radar:
Softer voices
Smaller/weaker frames
Long/Feminine hair
Clothing options (outside of specific breast-related body type designs, which is covered above)
Makeup
Profession choices
So on and so forth. I think it would be extremely hard to truly "get the point across" that you are transgendered in Zalanthas, without just coming out and saying, "I feel like I should have a wang/vag.".....because there really are no norms for you to either conform to or go against.
dude, Desertman, you have stated the same opinion multiple times on all three pages of this thread...we understand.
anyway, this idea about boob-shaped armor is silly, because as we all know, boob armor is an impractical invention created by fantasy artists and writers who are way more concerned about looking at armored boobs than a protected torso. and a true zalanthan warrior, concerned with staying alive, would not be wearing boob shaped armor, because it's fucking stupid and won't protect you nearly as well.
Here's a feminine breastplate. It looks the same as a masculine one.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/83/87/af/8387afc0bfa7cf9f9a3cabb8adfc12c1.jpg)
Dman, do you really not think that women in Zalanthas have other differences from men besides having a vag instead of a wang? Even if they don't have "softer" voices, do you not think their voices are higher pitched, or are all voices in Zalanthas pitched the same? I do not think that is necessarily what the creators of this game had in mind when they proposed total gender equality. Is facial hair the same too? The Adam's apple (Amos' ginka?) You mentioned breasts. Maybe we can be generous and nix the childbearing hips, but even without those, there are still other differences. Just because Zalanthan men 100% match Zalanthan women in strength and social power doesn't mean there aren't any secondary sex characteristics at all.
Quote from: LauraMars on August 07, 2015, 11:08:04 AM
dude, Desertman, you have stated the same opinion multiple times on all three pages of this thread...we understand.
anyway, this idea about boob-shaped armor is silly, because as we all know, boob armor is an impractical invention created by fantasy artists and writers who are way more concerned about looking at armored boobs than a protected torso. and a true zalanthan warrior, concerned with staying alive, would not be wearing boob shaped armor, because it's fucking stupid and won't protect you nearly as well.
Here's a feminine breastplate. It looks the same as a masculine one.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/83/87/af/8387afc0bfa7cf9f9a3cabb8adfc12c1.jpg)
I've seen boobed breastplates in game. They were pretty awesome, if impractical. (Written to look pretty frickin' awesome.)
In other words, if there were actually no differences between women and men on Zalanthas except the wang, the vag, and the breasts, women with small enough breasts would be absolutely, 100% indistinguishable from men. Flat-chested women should all put "human" in their sdescs and not reveal their gender in their mdescs because LORE.
The example about the hulking brute wanting to wear the breasted breastplate is pointless, mostly because we don't have those.
The list of things that have the word "feminine" in the description is pitifully small, same as "masculine". Most describe clothing or shoes. Only two breastplate pieces are described that way, and neither say they have boobie bulges, merely that they are adapted for a feminine form. Your interpretation after that point is more subjective. Some females may have a more feminine form and might wear them. Some males may have a more feminine form and might wear them. Conversely, some females and males may be hulking brutes that will instead wear the WoW-inspired pauldrons of might.
Quote from: Nyr on August 07, 2015, 11:20:39 AM
The example about the hulking brute wanting to wear the breasted breastplate is pointless, mostly because we don't have those.
The list of things that have the word "feminine" in the description is pitifully small, same as "masculine". Most describe clothing or shoes. Only two breastplate pieces are described that way, and neither say they have boobie bulges, merely that they are adapted for a feminine form. Your interpretation after that point is more subjective. Some females may have a more feminine form and might wear them. Some males may have a more feminine form and might wear them. Conversely, some females and males may be hulking brutes that will instead wear the WoW-inspired pauldrons of might.
Yeah I've never actually seen it happen, and the one boobied breastplate I'm thinking about doesn't even have "feminine" in it.
But I've never seen a transgendered character in game either. So, I'm throwing out potential situations based on possibly new situations to "map out" expectations, so to speak.
I just don't want to see a transgendered character walking around wearing "heels" because heels are "girly" and they feel like a girl.
That sort of thing.
At the end of the day I'm trying to think of a single thing they "could" do to express their sexuality beyond just saying they "feel like their parts should be different". I can't. I think it's an interesting topic.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 11:12:20 AM
In other words, if there were actually no differences between women and men on Zalanthas except the wang, the vag, and the breasts, women with small enough breasts would be absolutely, 100% indistinguishable from men. Flat-chested women should all put "human" in their sdescs and not reveal their gender in their mdescs because LORE.
It's interesting how much of our social gender coding relies on cues other than sexual characteristics. If I go take out the garbage in baggy pants and a hoodie, random people driving by will still know I'm a girl, because my nails are long and painted and my hair's styled in a feminine way. I probably move a lot like a girl, too. Really, this is true for everyone. Tons of guys have bigger boobs than I do, but I'd still know they were guys if I looked at them, even if they were clean shaven and had long hair. Why? Because they don't go to the trouble of presenting as a woman. Just like I don't go through the trouble of presenting as a man.
I imagine there's similar social cues in Zalanthas that lets people know whether or not that runty, flat-chested street rat is a boy or a girl. The only difference is that one set of behavior isn't seen as superior to the other set of behavior. They're both just street rats. Oppress them!
^ That's a interesting thought.
I hate to err on the side of "norms" and "expectations" when it comes to gender-related characteristics beyond basic biological necessities. (The wang and the vag.)
The hulking, brutish woman would be just as common as The hulking, brutish man.
The large-hipped, soft-skinned man would be just as common as The large-hipped, soft-skinned woman.
We don't see that reflected a lot in the PC's in game, but I think it holds true anyways.
Eh. I've also been under the impression that we don't have culturally-defined behavioral cues that separate the genders.
Does the T-slur just go unchallenged on these boards? Keep in mind this is offensiveness equivalent to calling a gay man Faggot or a black man the N-slur.
It doesn't go unchallenged, but it would have to be reported to moderators (using the report to moderator button). I did not see the post in question and I imagine other moderators did not, either. After you brought it up I found it and moderated it, so in the future, just report the post.
yeah, this thread has grown fast. it's hard to keep up. if you notice something offensive or against the rules, please report to moderator.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 07, 2015, 11:35:51 AM
Eh. I've also been under the impression that we don't have culturally-defined behavioral cues that separate the genders.
If there are no secondary sex characteristics other than breasts and facial hair or lack thereof, and men and women dress in exactly the same way (men wear dresses with the same frequency as women do, etc.) and there are no culturally or biological behavioral cues that can reveal a person's gender, how would you EVER tell a flat-chested woman from a clean-shaven man? Should people always be asking everyone who doesn't have visible breasts, a bulge, or a prominent Adam's apple if they're a guy or a girl? I've had PCs accepted who were described as being "androgynous" in their
sdescs, so I thought that was a thing, but apparently everyone in this world is equally androgynous.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 11:46:09 AM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 07, 2015, 11:35:51 AM
Eh. I've also been under the impression that we don't have culturally-defined behavioral cues that separate the genders.
If there are no secondary sex characteristics other than breasts and facial hair or lack thereof, and men and women dress in exactly the same way (men wear dresses with the exact same frequency as women do, etc.) and there are no culturally or biological behavioral cues that can reveal a person's gender, how would you EVER tell a flat-chested woman from a clean-shaven man? Should people always be asking everyone who doesn't have visible breasts, a bulge, or a prominent Adam's apple if they're a guy or a girl? I've had PCs accepted who were described as being "androgynous" in their sdescs, so I thought that was a thing, but apparently everyone in this world is equally androgynous.
First, facial hair isn't only for men. I've seen women with facial hair. I had one I actually named Rosey Guts in a crew of mine many years ago. She had a fine moustache as I recall. (Awesomely played too.)
The issue you are running into here is assuming everyone rides the center line. Everyone CAN be equally androgynous, but not everyone is.
What is being stated is there is a "median value" across the board for "everything".
There are just as many androgynous people as there are "large-breasted, wide-hipped woman" and there are just as many of those as there are "hulking, flat-chested women", and there are just as many of those as there are "soft-skinned, wide-hipped men".
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 11:46:09 AM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 07, 2015, 11:35:51 AM
Eh. I've also been under the impression that we don't have culturally-defined behavioral cues that separate the genders.
If there are no secondary sex characteristics other than breasts and facial hair or lack thereof,
So that is not an assertion of mine.
Quoteand men and women dress in exactly the same way (men wear dresses with the same frequency as women do, etc.)
Also not an assertion of mine.
Quoteand there are no culturally or biological behavioral cues that can reveal a person's gender, how would you EVER tell a flat-chested woman from a clean-shaven man?
Stubble? Voice? Hips? Biologically, we're pretty good and picking up on physical subtleties.
QuoteShould people always be asking everyone who doesn't have visible breasts, a bulge, or a prominent Adam's apple if they're a guy or a girl? I've had PCs accepted who were described as being "androgynous" in their sdescs, so I thought that was a thing, but apparently everyone in this world is equally androgynous.
Again, not an assertion of mine.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 10:24:36 AM
They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.
That's quite a stretch from the no sexism policy, and the code indicates exactly the opposite: one can distinguish between male and female voices based only on hearing them.
I'm not arguing that women with facial hair wouldn't exist. Lots of unusual characteristics exist IRL, and often even more so on Zalanthas. I mean, you mentioned mutant men with boobs, so that could be a thing that exists, too. Would a woman with facial hair be considered out-of-the-ordinary, or normal? Do women have to shave their faces just like men do, or do only some men have to shave their faces, along with some men, or...I mean, you've been pretty clear on your position that the ONLY difference between Zalanthan men and Zalanthan women is the wang and the vag. Occasionally you will concede that women also have breasts, so I'm wondering about whether you also think it's normal for women to have facial hair IC, or if that would be as weird as the guy with boobs. I haven't figured that out yet.
I get the point you're making about "just as many androgynous people" or whatever, but the point I'm making is that the word "androgynous" itself would be utterly meaningless in a world where everyone looks exactly the same except for some people have boobs.
OK, MM, I apologize. I'm getting your position mixed up with Dman's. He takes a pretty hardline stance.
Quote from: flurry on August 07, 2015, 11:55:32 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 10:24:36 AM
They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.
That's quite a stretch from the no sexism policy, and the code indicates exactly the opposite: one can distinguish between male and female voices based only on hearing them.
The code indicates a lot of things that aren't necessarily in line with the way the world actually works.
I think we have "feminine/masculine voices" in game for ease of playability, but I think it would be absolutely fine for a female PC to be made with a "manly voice" coded to them if they wanted to play that specific role.....because that role would be just as common in the population as a "feminine voiced" female.
We have to set the default somewhere. They set it codedly at what most people will want to play.
so as much as this thread is making me want to reread Ancillary Justice, I'm not sure what it truly has to do with OP's original question.
Since it's been a couple of years, here's LoD's quote on the staff's policy against no sexism yet again.
Quote from: LoD on October 16, 2009, 02:10:50 PM
The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men. Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character. Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role. And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.
-LoD
Could we perhaps discuss the idea of transexuals on Zalanthas a little more directly?
I think they exist, just like homosexuals exist. And, like homosexual behavior, I'd imagine it isn't seen as deviant, nor would a transexual person have a lesser social status. It's probably rarer than...not transexuals (I don't know the term for that, sorry), just like it is in real life. It's hard for the majority of us to put ourselves in that mindset, since most of us present and identify as the sex we were born with. Which is probably why it's difficult for us to discuss, and also why it's rarely played out in game.
I like the idea of playing that sort of character. I think as long as it was done in a non-immersion breaking, low-tech, Zalanthan way, I don't think it would be out of place or breaking the theme of the game at all.
We established they absolutely exist.
I think we have moved on to discussing what ways would be acceptable for them to "express" their transexuality without trying to conform to or go against RL gender roles and expectations as a default.
If transsexuals go against them or try to conform to them as a default in game, it means they are stating in game that those gender roles and expectations exist for them to conform to or go against as a rule....when they don't.
It kind of feels like this gender roles thing is a hurdle that we have to get past to address the question properly.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 11:56:02 AM
I'm not arguing that women with facial hair wouldn't exist. Lots of unusual characteristics exist IRL, and often even more so on Zalanthas. I mean, you mentioned mutant men with boobs, so that could be a thing that exists, too. Would a woman with facial hair be considered out-of-the-ordinary, or normal? Do women have to shave their faces just like men do, or do only some men have to shave their faces, along with some men, or...I mean, you've been pretty clear on your position that the ONLY difference between Zalanthan men and Zalanthan women is the wang and the vag. Occasionally you will concede that women also have breasts, so I'm wondering about whether you also think it's normal for women to have facial hair IC, or if that would be as weird as the guy with boobs. I haven't figured that out yet.
I get the point you're making about "just as many androgynous people" or whatever, but the point I'm making is that the word "androgynous" itself would be utterly meaningless in a world where everyone looks exactly the same except for some people have boobs.
OK, MM, I apologize. I'm getting your position mixed up with Dman's. He takes a pretty hardline stance.
There are just as many women who can grow facial hair if they choose as there are men who can't grow facial hair even if they want to. Neither would be considered an abnormality or a special circumstance/minority to be treated as such.
I think there is a big gap in the difference between genders being equal for all physical capabilities and there being no difference in how those gender are treated.
This is sexism (belief certain genders should fall into certain societal norms) vs chauvinism (believe one gender is superior to the other).
IMHO, chauvanism should not exist is Zalanthis, but there are certain roles for which one gender is simply going to be selected over the other by pure biology.
For example. In this post-apocalyptic world, men (far as I know) still do not bear children. If the biological override to sustain the populace is gone, that's one thing. If it is not, then by that very fact men and women are not equal. You don't need a bunch of men to sustain the population. Men aren't going to be carrying children to term. Men aren't going to die as a result of the birthing process. Men can't feed the child after it is born. In short, men are far more disposable than women. You just don't need them past that one moment in time.
So... who do you send out on the dangerous tasks? The disposable ones. Who do you keep around (to a point)? The ones that can replace all those disposable minions.
Men would be kept around if they were healthy and strong, eg able to better produce offspring that are likewise "useful".
Women would be kept around if they were healthy and strong and able to bear children that were healthy and strong.
Everyone else (and here's your true equality) would be disposable.
You're a weak, sickly female? You're a drag on your society. Good bye.
You're a weak, sickly male? You're a drag on your society. Good bye.
You're a strong, healthy male, do your duty then get out there and do those dangerous tasks that are likely to get someone dead. Thanks for helping.
You're a strong, healthy female? Don't want to bear children? Ok, you're in the same boat as the strong healthy men. Eg, you're disposable. Get into the grinder.
You're a strong, healthy male that doesn't want to behave like a strong, healthy male? Well you're more of a drag that the weak, sickly guy. Who's gonna feed you? Get out.
You're a strong, healthy female? You're able to bear strong healthy children? You're top of the food chain... Until there's too many children. Then you're disposable. Get into the grinder.
So does it make sense for a woman to present as "masculine" sure does. Says, I'm not here to bear children. I'm here to break shit and get stuff done.
Does it make sense for a man to present as "feminine"? Much less so. That says, I'm really confused about what makes me valuable to society.
Trying to force complete gender invisibility? Why not replace every he and she, his and her, with "they" and "their", because there is no need for gender to be described at all.
So... to the OP, Transsexuals on Zalanthas. I can completely buy that there would be men that wish they could bear children and women that wish they could impregnate other women. These are the only differences between the genders that matter. Not sure how that could play out, beyond trying to find a way to fill that role with the equipment they have.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:09:43 PM
Quote from: flurry on August 07, 2015, 11:55:32 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 10:24:36 AM
They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.
That's quite a stretch from the no sexism policy, and the code indicates exactly the opposite: one can distinguish between male and female voices based only on hearing them.
The code indicates a lot of things that aren't necessarily in line with the way the world actually works.
I think we have "feminine voices" in game for ease of playability, but I think it would be absolutely fine for a female PC to be made with a "manly voice" coded to them if they wanted to play that specific role.....because that role would be just as common in the population as a "feminine voiced" female.
We have to set the default somewhere. They set it codedly at what most people will want to play.
As far as I know, the code never suggests that a voice is "feminine" or "manly." It says "female" or "male." This indicates that there is generally a difference between male voices and female voices.
In any case, you are making a very strict interpretation of the no sexism policy. That's fine, but the documentation by no means requires that interpretation.
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:19:46 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 11:56:02 AM
I'm not arguing that women with facial hair wouldn't exist. Lots of unusual characteristics exist IRL, and often even more so on Zalanthas. I mean, you mentioned mutant men with boobs, so that could be a thing that exists, too. Would a woman with facial hair be considered out-of-the-ordinary, or normal? Do women have to shave their faces just like men do, or do only some men have to shave their faces, along with some men, or...I mean, you've been pretty clear on your position that the ONLY difference between Zalanthan men and Zalanthan women is the wang and the vag. Occasionally you will concede that women also have breasts, so I'm wondering about whether you also think it's normal for women to have facial hair IC, or if that would be as weird as the guy with boobs. I haven't figured that out yet.
I get the point you're making about "just as many androgynous people" or whatever, but the point I'm making is that the word "androgynous" itself would be utterly meaningless in a world where everyone looks exactly the same except for some people have boobs.
OK, MM, I apologize. I'm getting your position mixed up with Dman's. He takes a pretty hardline stance.
There are just as many women who can grow facial hair if they choose as there are men who can't grow facial hair even if they want to. Neither would be considered an abnormality or a special circumstance/minority to be treated as such.
So, would you agree that it should actually be impossible to tell a flat-chested woman from a man without a prominent Adam's apple IG? (I mean, assuming women don't have Adam's apples as well, which is something I probably shouldn't assume, given your stance on these things.)
Quote from: flurry on August 07, 2015, 12:21:47 PMIn any case, you are making a very strict interpretation of the no sexism policy. That's fine, but the documentation by no means requires that interpretation.
Absolutely this. Nobody should feel pressured to take Desertman's interpretation of the docs as gospel, just because he's being very vocal about it. This is a storytelling game in which multiple opinions and interpretations of the game world are valid. The no sexism rule is not an old testament commandment to always roll up an androgynous character. It's just a no sexism rule.
Quote from: flurry on August 07, 2015, 12:21:47 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 12:09:43 PM
Quote from: flurry on August 07, 2015, 11:55:32 AM
Quote from: Desertman on August 07, 2015, 10:24:36 AM
They wouldn't even try and change their voice because women in Zalanthas don't have softer voices (even if people usually play them that way). They just don't. A woman with a deep voice is just as normal as a man with a deep voice the same way a woman with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword is just as normal as a man with a 30 inch bicep swinging a greatsword.
That's quite a stretch from the no sexism policy, and the code indicates exactly the opposite: one can distinguish between male and female voices based only on hearing them.
The code indicates a lot of things that aren't necessarily in line with the way the world actually works.
I think we have "feminine voices" in game for ease of playability, but I think it would be absolutely fine for a female PC to be made with a "manly voice" coded to them if they wanted to play that specific role.....because that role would be just as common in the population as a "feminine voiced" female.
We have to set the default somewhere. They set it codedly at what most people will want to play.
As far as I know, the code never suggests that a voice is "feminine" or "manly." It says "female" or "male." This indicates that there is generally a difference between male voices and female voices.
In any case, you are making a very strict interpretation of the no sexism policy. That's fine, but the documentation by no means requires that interpretation.
Then change the words in my original post from "feminine" and "manly" to "female" and "male" and give it another read. That's what I meant anyways.
Quote from: LauraMars on August 07, 2015, 12:26:22 PM
Quote from: flurry on August 07, 2015, 12:21:47 PMIn any case, you are making a very strict interpretation of the no sexism policy. That's fine, but the documentation by no means requires that interpretation.
Absolutely this. Nobody should feel pressured to take Desertman's interpretation of the docs as gospel, just because he's being very vocal about it. This is a storytelling game in which multiple opinions and interpretations of the game world are valid. The no sexism rule is not an old testament commandment to always roll up an androgynous character. It's just a no sexism rule.
I never said that. In fact I actually said there are just as many androgynous people as there are "feminine" and "masculine" people, so people should write up whatever they want.
There is a median baseline of "equality" across the board with nobody being more traditionally "masculine" or "feminine" than anyone else.
Basically you can't treat anyone as "the odd man out", because nobody is the "odd man out" when it comes to what is considered traditionally masculine or feminine.
I just feel like if Dman's rule were gospel, then no one should put "man" in their sdesc or mdesc unless they have a huge bulge, because no one would be able to tell for sure, and no one should put "woman" unless they have prominent breasts. Because noticeable breasts or a bulging crotch would literally be the only way to discern the genders, and that seems wrong to me. That does not seem like the intention of the imms when they put in a rule to protect people who want to play whatever gender they want in whatever role they want. That is just...boring.
Anyway, back to transgendered stuff. I really enjoy the creativity of the OP, especially the tribal stuff, and I think the OP coming up with a tribal role call based around some of those ideas would be pretty sweet.
As Laura says, there is no sexism. Sexism is the inequality of the sexes. There is none of that whatsoever.
All of this other shit suggested in this thread is basically bs. Women are women, and men are men. Wearing obviously female clothing as a man would be odd. Wearing a dick-like cod piece as a woman would be odd. Not wrong, not bad, not soft, not hard. Just odd. So yes, a man who wanted to be a woman could do that, and it would never be considered by civilized Zalanthans as more than than odd. Your skirt wearing, powdered female-man could then go on to lead the Arm to glory untold.
That's pretty much the long and short of it.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 07, 2015, 12:34:09 PM
As Laura says, there is no sexism. Sexism is the inequality of the sexes. There is none of that whatsoever.
That's chauvanism.
Sexism is believing that men should carry all the heavy things and fight all the wars while women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:32:59 PM
I just feel like if Dman's rule were gospel, then no one should put "man" in their sdesc or mdesc unless they have a huge bulge, because no one would be able to tell for sure, and no one should put "woman" unless they have prominent breasts. Because noticeable breasts or a bulging crotch would literally be the only way to discern the genders, and that seems wrong to me. That does not seem like the intention of the imms when they put in a rule to protect people who want to play whatever gender they want in whatever role they want. That is just...boring.
Anyway, back to transgendered stuff. I really enjoy the creativity of the OP, especially the tribal stuff, and I think the OP coming up with a tribal role call based around some of those ideas would be pretty sweet.
My only point is that the genders exist in a way in game....equally across the board....that you can play anything you want in any mix/match/concoction you can come up with and you will/should be treated "normal" (not odd), because there are no expectations or traditional values associated with gender equality, identity, or characteristics beyond the bare bones fundamentals of sexual biology.
I'm not trying to make you fit a mold. I'm trying to tell you there is no mold.
*Neo Voice - There is no mold.*(I agree that can seem a little boring until you realize that it lets you play really masculine men and really feminine women if you want to....and most people sort of do to some extent anyways. This rarely actually affects gameplay from what I have found.)
There is also magickal healing to be considered, and while that is generally frowned upon, perhaps in your tribe it isn't, or maybe in certain circumstances it's at least tolerated. I could see that being used in a rtualistic gender reassignment surgery sort of thing.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:39:25 PM
There is also magickal healing to be considered, and while that is generally frowned upon, perhaps in your tribe it isn't, or maybe in certain circumstances it's at least tolerated. I could see that being used in a rtualistic gender reassignment surgery sort of thing.
Why not just a spell that changes your gender? Why are we trying to make our magick match real life surgery expectations/procedures?
I've seen those in many games, especially Dungeons and Dragons. I've cursed people with items as a DM with those exact spells on them actually for plots.
For all I know, that spell actually already exists in Armageddon. *shrug*
Neh, nevermind.
Quote from: whitt on August 07, 2015, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 07, 2015, 12:34:09 PM
As Laura says, there is no sexism. Sexism is the inequality of the sexes. There is none of that whatsoever.
That's chauvanism.
Sexism is believing that men should carry all the heavy things and fight all the wars while women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
Uh, alright. Also none of that. I'm pretty sure chauvinism derives from sexism, but whatever. Point remains. A female can do whatever a male can do and visa versa, but males are still males and females are still females, and trying to be the other wouldn't be something that would make you weaker or stronger, but certainly it's different, and different is different.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 07, 2015, 12:43:44 PM
Quote from: whitt on August 07, 2015, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 07, 2015, 12:34:09 PM
As Laura says, there is no sexism. Sexism is the inequality of the sexes. There is none of that whatsoever.
That's chauvanism.
Sexism is believing that men should carry all the heavy things and fight all the wars while women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
Uh, alright. Also none of that. I'm pretty sure chauvinism derives from sexism, but whatever. Point remains. A female can do whatever a male can do and visa versa, but males are still males and females are still females, and trying to be the other wouldn't be something that would make you weaker or stronger, but certainly it's different, and different is different.
Different is generally not considered a good thing which I think is the issue that would come up with this.
I think we are safer to say it's not any more different than anything else, so that people interpreting how to "treat different" isn't even on the board.
I think everyone's made their points on both sides of this particular debate. Reiterating them isn't going to help.
Um, I'm just saying that it could help heal the wound and make it look more natural. It would still obviously be much worse and much more of a hack-job than real-life gender reassignment surgery. I'm just using the phrase so that we can compare it to something we understand, but I'd hope people playing something like that out wouldn't just try to copy something that exists in modernity as best they can. I've seen far too much of that IG.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:47:05 PM
Um, I'm just saying that it could help heal the wound and make it look more natural. It would still obviously be much worse and much more of a hack-job than real-life gender reassignment surgery. I'm just using the phrase so that we can compare it to something we understand, but I'd hope people playing something like that out wouldn't just try to copy something that exists in modernity as best they can. I've seen far too much of that IG.
I can see a lot of fun being had with a "gender change" spell that wore off after a few IC days. Just saying. Would be pretty funny.
This also reminds me of the time I had a certain <redacted> from the north make Gage Gritshaw sit and think about wanting a vagina. They basically tried to make him turn into a transsexual. It was very funny.
(Thanks Ourla.)
Fun fact: you don't need to change your genitals to be trans.
Quote from: valeria on August 07, 2015, 12:53:32 PM
Fun fact: you don't need to change your genitals to be trans.
Truth. In doing a little research for this thread, I learned what the terms "Post-Op" and "Pre-Op" meant. You guys teach me everything in life worth knowing. :P
No, you certainly don't need to, valeria but I was just addressing the OP, because the OP did ask about some potential methods of physical sex reassignment. :)
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:39:25 PM
There is also magickal healing to be considered, and while that is generally frowned upon, perhaps in your tribe it isn't, or maybe in certain circumstances it's at least tolerated. I could see that being used in a rtualistic gender reassignment surgery sort of thing.
I doubt the capability (magickal or otherwise) exists to do this.
Magickal lore (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/FAQ%2013):
QuoteCan Magick on Zalanthas restore missing limbs and other crippling wounds?
While magick on Zalanthas is powerful and can perform miraculous feats of healing, it only works on fresh wounds and injuries. Once a wound has healed, whether it is a cut on the arm or the stump of a severed leg, healing magic is ineffective.
As far as surgery, you're talking something that wasn't done in the real world until the 1930s, and that had complications early on that led to death in some cases.
While there may be other things that magick and game-level technology might provide for in the case of the exceptionally well-connected, wealthy, or those with connections/wealth AND a sense of expedience over disgust regarding magick being used on them...this is probably beyond both magickal and mundane "capabilities".
Quote from: Beethoven on August 07, 2015, 12:55:52 PM
No, you certainly don't need to, valeria but I was just addressing the OP, because the OP did ask about some potential methods of physical sex reassignment. :)
I realize that, I just wanted to nip a common misconception in the bud. :)
I don't really want to get into the nitty-gritty of what I was talking about but I am going to agree to disagree that some kind of rudimentary hackjob MTF thing could be done. Would be done in that kind of ancient setting, realistically, well, I don't know, but if because of OOC reasons staff wants "transwoman" to be a workable role, then I was just proposing a way I think it could be done. FTM, no. MTF, I think so. Now, I'm not saying it would be pretty, but I think someone could do it. I don't know if they would have to be particularly wealthy, either. They would just have to have access to magick, and they would have to be desperate enough to want to use that magick (and tolerate a lot of pain in the meantime!) And some transpeople really, really want to get rid of their gender dysphoria, at all costs.
Now, I'm not sure about how very functional the parts would be, but they might see whatever can be accomplished as preferable to the alternative.
Maybe it's silly to disagree with you of all people, Nyr, but here I am. :P
Basically, what I am saying is that they would just be wounding themselves and then sort of half-healing it, but I don't want to be too graphic here. It would not be functional at all, and would only serve to make them feel more female. A lot of people would definitely not want that, but some might.
EDIT: But you know what is a lot MORE viable? Eunuchs. Join me, gelded brothers!
I'm expecting now to see some tribal person who always wanted to be the other gender holding a blade to a vivaduan, cutting off someone's bits (or their own), and telling that Vivaduan they'd better attach it to them quick like or they're getting the spear. Thanks for that. Arm, you change me in so many ways.
I'm being really grotesque, aren't I.
Quote from: ABoredLion on August 07, 2015, 01:37:03 PM
I'm expecting now to see some tribal person who always wanted to be the other gender holding a blade to a vivaduan, cutting off someone's bits (or their own), and telling that Vivaduan they'd better attach it to them quick like or they're getting the spear. Thanks for that. Arm, you change me in so many ways.
10/10, would kudos if happened.
New character concept.
In ancient India there were whole religious sects and castes that more or less revolved around transgenderism as a practice. So anything I suppose, is possible in Zalanthas, which has none of the Western Judeo-Christianity baggage on the subject.
Quote from: valeria on August 07, 2015, 12:53:32 PM
Fun fact: you don't need to change your genitals to be trans.
Heh, yep. But if I was going to clear up every misconception in this thread, I wouldn't have time to play.
Quote from: whitt on August 07, 2015, 12:21:04 PM
So... to the OP, Transsexuals on Zalanthas. I can completely buy that there would be men that wish they could bear children and women that wish they could impregnate other women. These are the only differences between the genders that matter. Not sure how that could play out, beyond trying to find a way to fill that role with the equipment they have.
Yeah, this is about the only avenue in which I can envision transgender expression manifesting.
Anything else like a man wanting to wear make up and put a dress on to "be more like a female" would feel like RL stuff being shoe horned into the game.
I feel like with the lack of socialized and societal division between male and female, you'd have a mostly agender society. Which would fit well with polyamory and nonnuclear families and having crowded hovels of starving people. Girls can kick as much ass as boys, and boys can be pretty kept toys just as easily as the other way around. Since there's no gender roles, one can then infer that you can like any number of things, and that doesn't make you wanting to be a man, or a woman, for that matter, outside the genitals/impregnating, maybe wishing to look more like a guy/girl physically (ie breasts or lack thereof/what-have-you). But with a lack of gender-roles, it'd be really difficult to be transgender. After all, sex and gender are not the same, and while there are definitely different -sexes- in Zalanthas, the lack of gender roles makes it hard for me to picture -genders- that are distinct outside maybe odd tribal cultures, and the former lirathan/jihaen templarate orders.
I think you're less likely to see transgender PC's in Zalanthas because a transgender player would probably just go ahead and play their preferred gender. That said, I cringe at the thought of anyone trying to emulate the struggles of a transgender PC for the same reason I cringe at the thought of someone trying emulate a psychiatric disorder or mental disability. (I AM NOT SAYING TRANSGENDERISM IS EITHER OF THESE THINGS, THEY ARE NOT) I can't trust players to play it without it becoming some sort of caricature.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 08, 2015, 10:51:52 PM
I feel like with the lack of socialized and societal division between male and female, you'd have a mostly agender society. Which would fit well with polyamory and nonnuclear families and having crowded hovels of starving people. Girls can kick as much ass as boys, and boys can be pretty kept toys just as easily as the other way around. Since there's no gender roles, one can then infer that you can like any number of things, and that doesn't make you wanting to be a man, or a woman, for that matter, outside the genitals/impregnating, maybe wishing to look more like a guy/girl physically (ie breasts or lack thereof/what-have-you). But with a lack of gender-roles, it'd be really difficult to be transgender. After all, sex and gender are not the same, and while there are definitely different -sexes- in Zalanthas, the lack of gender roles makes it hard for me to picture -genders- that are distinct outside maybe odd tribal cultures, and the former lirathan/jihaen templarate orders.
Smart post. I think at face value, I agree with all of it.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 08, 2015, 10:51:52 PM
I feel like with the lack of socialized and societal division between male and female, you'd have a mostly agender society. Which would fit well with polyamory and nonnuclear families and having crowded hovels of starving people. Girls can kick as much ass as boys, and boys can be pretty kept toys just as easily as the other way around. Since there's no gender roles, one can then infer that you can like any number of things, and that doesn't make you wanting to be a man, or a woman, for that matter, outside the genitals/impregnating, maybe wishing to look more like a guy/girl physically (ie breasts or lack thereof/what-have-you). But with a lack of gender-roles, it'd be really difficult to be transgender. After all, sex and gender are not the same, and while there are definitely different -sexes- in Zalanthas, the lack of gender roles makes it hard for me to picture -genders- that are distinct outside maybe odd tribal cultures, and the former lirathan/jihaen templarate orders.
I agree with your post, but I've seen evidence that other players, just don't get it. I won't mention specifics, but it's why I've idea'd a gender helpfile on multiple occassions.
There should definitely be a gender helpfile. I wish I lived in a world where gender didn't matter, but I can pretend in the game at least.
I don't know if you've ever sufficiently pissed off a girl IRL, but they can and will kick your shit in, possibly much worse than a guy would. For that matter, so can a guy in a dress.
EDIT: But playing this game it seems like, sometimes, people don't have a bit of respect for your character if you display feminine traits. I tried playing a guy in a skirt once, it ended with him being an ex-trooper, sinister, wicked, twisted, Nilaz-worshipping son of a bitch, despite having started out a pacifist. I did this because a badass warrior I had in the Byn was ordered that he wasn't allowed to giggle, to see HOW people really reacted. Most? Just fine, it's the few problem cases and the initial shock that some display that's like, what, are you serious?
I had a male character wear a dress once. Every female character (save one) was snickering about it and making snide comments about boobs (it wasn't a dress with cleavage either). The male characters kind of just blinked for a bit, then ignored it. I was really disappointed with almost everyone's reaction towards it.
Quote from: bcw81 on August 09, 2015, 07:42:12 PM
I had a male character wear a dress once. Every female character (save one) was snickering about it and making snide comments about boobs (it wasn't a dress with cleavage either). The male characters kind of just blinked for a bit, then ignored it. I was really disappointed with almost everyone's reaction towards it.
That's a shame. I dislike that people are so socialized toward specific gender roles in real life. I think it makes it difficult for a lot of players to carry forth IC without attributing social expectations and connotations picked up in day to day life as a player, without it crossing over to how their characters both act, and react, to anything that blurs the line or crosses it. One day, though, that's the dream. People will just understand they're consciousness in sacks of skin and it doesn't make a damn what the genitals on yours say, and should in no way create a stigma against liking or disliking certain things, or avoiding/encouraging behaviors, etc. I think pretty much anyone will struggle with it at some point, just -because- of how large a role gendered advertising and socializing plays in our lives as players. Usually I treat jarringly OOC reactions as being like a joke I don't get and move on.
I think you're just baiting with that move, though, bcw. This isn't Star Trek, where everyone wears generic jumpsuits. Armageddon has its own fashion, and I want to assume when an item is labeled as a "dress" that it is somehow designed to tailor to the female figure, and though figures on Zalanthas can vary widely between genders, secondary sex traits still appear to be commonly described on characters and applied in fashion.
So as much as I'd like to say "nice dress" and go about my day, I'd be unable to not feel a little jarred by your being cute with a concept that is 'in the meta'.
Retroactively intrpduce mpreg. Problem solved.
Quote from: bcw81 on August 09, 2015, 07:42:12 PM
I had a male character wear a dress once. Every female character (save one) was snickering about it and making snide comments about boobs (it wasn't a dress with cleavage either). The male characters kind of just blinked for a bit, then ignored it. I was really disappointed with almost everyone's reaction towards it.
The thing is, nothing in the docs addresses this one way or another, so people just make their own judgement calls. Personally I don't think men and women in Zalanthas dress the same, but I do think it's equally valid to think that they do. :-\ 'No sexism' is open to a lot of different reasonable interpretations.
There are no genders or sexes in Zalanthas, beyond what kind of parts you like to rub on your parts.
There are only those who wear cloth, and those who wear armor.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 09, 2015, 11:04:27 PM
There are no genders or sexes in Zalanthas, beyond what kind of parts you like to rub on your parts.
There are only those who wear cloth, and those who wear armor.
So men don't have more facial hair than women?
There's no difference in facial structure, women's aren't rounder and softer around the edges?
They don't have more body hair with a coarser consistency?
A woman's hips aren't wider than a mans?
A man's shoulders don't tend to be wider?
Their skin is the same level of coarseness?
Men are just as likely to have big, bubbly butts?
If you want to argue that, then Zalanthans really shouldn't be called humans anymore because they don't resemble us at all.
You're all just bodies to be arranged on my screen.
One time, a certain gypsy couldn't figure out how to seduce Lyvren. After being turned down a few times, he thought he'd change tack.
He put on a dress, heels and white face makeup and tried his luck. Turns out Lyvren really liked guys who dress in dresses and heels ;)
Favourite IG seduction ever.
Also I'm way disappointed there'd be any weirdness around men or women wearing any clothing IG, dresses, heels, whatever. Seen commoners and nobles and templars all do it. Never thought it weird and always treated it as normal.
Gender roles are rooted in biology brought on by our sexual diamorphism ... so I can't even blame people for letting such a strong part of our own hard wiring creep into the game.
It's like how being an individual, instead of part of a collective hive mind ... is what makes it so difficult to play mantis.
The lack of sexual diamorphism in Armageddon is ... alien ... to us. It's difficult to remember that and counterbalance it.
No, they're actually rooted in society. That is why in some societies, you see three or five different genders, all with different roles. It's not universally just 'male and female'. That is a society based thing.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 09, 2015, 11:54:38 PM
No, they're actually rooted in society. That is why in some societies, you see three or five different genders, all with different roles. It's not universally just 'male and female'. That is a society based thing.
Yes, this is correct. If there was a gender doc, I'd like to see an inclusion of various fantasy transgender identities as well, rather than just a nonsensical statement that "everyone's the same genderless clone of each other."
Quote from: musashi on August 09, 2015, 11:39:27 PM
The lack of sexual diamorphism in Armageddon is ... alien ... to us.
Probably because no documentation suggests any such thing.
Quote from: musashi on August 09, 2015, 11:39:27 PM
Gender roles are rooted in biology brought on by our sexual diamorphism ... so I can't even blame people for letting such a strong part of our own hard wiring creep into the game.
Everything you think you know about gender is a fiction that you were taught from childhood. And the reaction you have is a not a biological one, but instead cognitive dissonance based on what you think is the appropriate performance for a gender.
Quote from: Jingo on August 10, 2015, 12:18:06 AM
Quote from: musashi on August 09, 2015, 11:39:27 PM
Gender roles are rooted in biology brought on by our sexual diamorphism ... so I can't even blame people for letting such a strong part of our own hard wiring creep into the game.
Everything you think you know about gender is a fiction that you were taught from childhood. And the reaction you have is a not a biological one, but instead cognitive dissonance based on what you think is the appropriate performance for a gender.
It's ... really not. At all. But going into a discussion about certain strains of progressive political ideology vs. scientific studies on gender roles in animals as relating to their biological sexual traits is perhaps beyond the purview of this thread.
Quote from: flurry on August 10, 2015, 12:02:32 AM
Quote from: musashi on August 09, 2015, 11:39:27 PM
The lack of sexual diamorphism in Armageddon is ... alien ... to us.
Probably because no documentation suggests any such thing.
A staffer said as much in this thread. Hang on I'll grab it.
There you go.
Quote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM
~ The selection of male or female at character creation determines your character's presentation. It codedly results in assigning your character's pronouns and what other players will assume your character's sex is at a glance. It is not tied to anything physiological or psychological about your character - you are free to play your character as you wish. This is in line with our policy of zero sexual dimorphism in our currently playable races.
This is what happens when you try to take a cisgendered boy, cut his penis off, and lie to him that he's a girl from birth onwards. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer)
I assume the same to hold true for girls though thankfully we haven't had the moral misfortune of torturing another human being that way again after the first time the nature vs nurture debate on this issue was tested on a flesh and blood person.
This has nothing to do with transgendered people. I've got nothing against someone who identifies that way. This is just a refutation of the assertion that genders are a societal construct.
Quote from: Kismetic on August 09, 2015, 10:29:06 PM
I think you're just baiting with that move, though, bcw. This isn't Star Trek, where everyone wears generic jumpsuits.
100% Honesty. I was entirely baiting with it. The females were talking about dresses and said "Oh, but -you- should buy a dress!" and I was like "Lolk" and then they bought it for me. Already being do deep in the situation, I just went with it and baited the hell out of people.
Emoted the shit out of that dress.
This is some shit. I can smell the middle school locker-room from here.
Also, did you guys just overturn Sanvean's doctrine, if you did, I don't think that wise.
What is Sanvean's doctrine?
I don't want to argue with a staff member's decree, but I do believe that zero sexual dimorphism would suggest that female Zalanthans do not have breasts or that male Zalanthans also have breasts, which is clearly not true based on many IG items and factors and all that. I do not think he quite meant zero sexual dimorphism. Also, as flurry pointed out, the code does differentiate between male and female voices, so there is at least that, despite Dman's efforts to discount it.
I think what he meant was that while here on earth ... men have something like 40% more upper body strength and 60% more lower body strength than women do ... that doesn't exist in Zalanthas.
Ergo, the gender roles imposed by biology (men do more dangerous things like war and hunting because they're stronger/more disposable, women gather food and rear children because they're the breeders) did not develop.
As has already been pointed out in this thread, the fact that women still bear kids while men don't would logically still make women more valuable in terms of survival of a tribe/species etc but ... we all comfortably let that slide for playbility's sake because we don't want earth gender norms in our game.
My point was that these gender roles are still a part of us as players though, so they tend to creep in naturally if we don't actively counter balance against them. So ... I don't judge the players freaking out over bcw81's male PC in a dress too harshly. It's an easy mistake to make.
Quote from: musashi on August 10, 2015, 01:10:11 AM
I think what he meant was that while here on earth ... men have something like 40% more upper body strength and 60% more lower body strength than women do ... that doesn't exist in Zalanthas.
Ergo, the gender roles imposed by biology (men do more dangerous things like war and hunting because they're stronger/more disposable, women gather food and rear children because they're the breeders) did not develop.
As has already been pointed out in this thread, the fact that women still bear kids while men don't would logically still make women more valuable in terms of survival of a tribe/species etc but ... we all comfortably let that slide for playbility's sake because we don't want earth gender norms in our game.
My point was that these gender roles are still a part of us as players though, so they tend to creep in naturally if we don't actively counter balance against them. So ... I don't judge the players freaking out over bcw81's male PC in a dress too harshly. It's an easy mistake to make.
Yes, I also believe that is what he meant. Which is why when people think he and other staff members who have made similar statements meant there is zero sexual dimorphism at all...i.e. women are just as likely to have beards as men, women and men have the same voice pitch range, women and men are equally likely to have Adam's apples, there is no distinguishing women and men based on facial features, and that Zalanthan women and men are basically identical other than their genitalia and maybe breasts, I think that is going too far. Not to put words in anyone's mouth or anything, or speculate TOO much about what people meant. I think that if Rathustra came back and said that is exactly what he meant, I'd still be pretty freakin' skeptical about the IC implications of that.
Quote from: musashi on August 10, 2015, 01:10:11 AM
I think what he meant was that while here on earth ... men have something like 40% more upper body strength and 60% more lower body strength than women do ... that doesn't exist in Zalanthas.
Ergo, the gender roles imposed by biology (men do more dangerous things like war and hunting because they're stronger/more disposable, women gather food and rear children because they're the breeders) did not develop.
As has already been pointed out in this thread, the fact that women still bear kids while men don't would logically still make women more valuable in terms of survival of a tribe/species etc but ... we all comfortably let that slide for playbility's sake because we don't want earth gender norms in our game.
My point was that these gender roles are still a part of us as players though, so they tend to creep in naturally if we don't actively counter balance against them. So ... I don't judge the players freaking out over bcw81's male PC in a dress too harshly. It's an easy mistake to make.
What I'm saying is, your sex is male or female, biologically, or something in between. That's your physiology, your body. Your mentality/mind/social role, is gender roles. Those are social, not biological. And they change from culture to culture. Pink and blue aren't boys colors and girls colors. It's all just legos, and some people like legos, and some people don't. That's social roles. That is not biological sex. The social roles are gender roles.
One could even argue that since Zalanthan men and women seem to still have sexual diamorphism at the level of secondary sexual traits (ie ... boobs and junk) ... then looking askance and snickering at a man with no boobs and broad shoulders wearing a dress sewn to fit someone with boobs and small shoulders would be totally justified.
I think the basic conundrum is this:
You need gender roles in order to have trans-gendered people. The concept isn't even coherent without.
If genders are not biological and a result of the way you are born ... then why did Caitlyn Jenner feel like a woman in spite of society raising her as a man for her entire life? Why couldn't society program her gender into that of a man if gender is just a construct of society?
Why couldn't society program David Reimer into thinking he was a girl? They even gave him sexual reassignment surgery from 6 months of age and never told him he was ever born a boy to begin with and he still identified as a boy and rejected the female identity society tried to condition him into.
I don't think those people were faking it. Or that they arbitrarily decided to change their mind about their gender identity at some point in their life. I think that like sexual orientation, they were born that way. We all are.
The "third, fourth, fifth" gendered societies referenced in that PBS report aren't really extra genders. They're societies that are obviously more accepting of trans-gendered. All of their "extra" genders are basically carving out a space for people who are born one way but feel they should be another. And good on them for it. I hope we become similar in the future. But their extra genders are all still just variations on the two we have as a species, but sometimes get the wiring crossed for in development.
An actual third gender would be something like ... he produces the sperm, she produces the egg, and zhe incubates both inside zher body to carry the baby to term.
So in a world like Zalanthas, where we don't really want to define gender roles of any kind ... it makes it really difficult to define what a transgendered person would even be. ???
bardlyone ...
What I am saying is that the little variations like what's a boy's color vs a girl's color ... are cosmetic window dressing put on top of the gender role skeletal structure that our biological sex defines.
And we already know that these preferences have roots in development, not social conditioning. (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201212/sex-specific-toy-preferences-learned-or-innate)
Quote from: musashi on August 10, 2015, 01:48:04 AM
bardlyone ...
What I am saying is that the little variations like what's a boy's color vs a girl's color ... are cosmetic window dressing put on top of the gender role skeletal structure that our biological sex defines.
And we already know that these preferences have roots in development, not social conditioning. (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201212/sex-specific-toy-preferences-learned-or-innate)
Beg to differ.
Quote
Definition of Terms
Sex
refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex
(i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female).
There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal
reproductive organs, and external genitalia.
Gender
refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as
gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations
constitute gender non-conformity.
[Source: http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf ]
Bardlyone ...
From your same source:
QuoteGender identity refers to "one's sense of oneself as male, female, or transgender" (American
Psychological Association, 2006). When one's gender identity and biological sex are not
congruent, the individual may identify as transsexual or as another transgender category (cf.
Gainor, 2000).
Those are semantics. You can define words any way you like, it does nothing to change the scientific observation that (from my source before):
- Children who are in the pre-socialization stage of their cognitive development exhibit sex-specific preferences.
- Little girls who suffer from congenital adrenal hyperplasia, an endocrinological disorder that masculinizes morphological features and behavioral patterns, exhibit toy preferences that are more masculine than their female counterparts who do not suffer from the disorder. In other words, there is a link between hormones and toy/play preferences.
- Studies using our primate cousins (e.g., rhesus and vervet monkeys) have found the exact same sex-specific preferences in infants within those species.
- The digit ratio is a sexually dimorphic marker of exposure to androgens in utero. Males who exhibit more masculine digit ratios are more likely to engage in male-specific behaviors and preferences.
- Thus, work stemming from developmental psychology, comparative psychology, and endocrinology, using both non-clinical and clinical populations, and a wide assortment of dependent measures (e.g., eye gaze, digit ratio), points to an unassailable conclusion: the sex-specificity of toy preferences is shaped by sex-specific biological forces.
Changing the conventional definition of "gender" to mean something else, and instead using "gender identity" to now mean what gender used to mean ... doesn't alter observation.
Just take the word "gender" and change it to "gender identity" for everything I've said so far, and I think all of my points still stand.
To use the terms you would like to use:
What I am saying is that the little variations like what's a boy's color vs a girl's color ... are cosmetic window dressing otherwise known as "gender-normative societial preferences" ... put on top of the skeletal structure known as "gender identity", which is derived biologically from "sex".
And all the extra genders referenced in the PBS documentary about cultures around the world are just examples of societies being tolerant of people whose "gender expression" was "gender non-conformative" to their culture, hence they created a new "gender" to give them a "gender-normative" role in which to express themselves.
An actual new "gender identity/sex" would be if he made the sperm, she made the egg, and zhe incubated the egg in zher body to carry the baby to term.
I'm still making exactly the same points. It's just harder for normal people to understand what's being said from all the field-specific jargon.
Sorry last post I promise. I just thought to be helpful I'll restate my main point using terms you're more comfortable with to avoid the semantic confusion.
I think the basic conundrum is this:
You need "gender" in order for trans-gender to have meaning. The concept is practically redundant without.
Zalanthas, for all intents and purposes ... only has one "gender". So there is no way for someone to have "gender expression" that is "gender normative" or "gender non-conformative". All "gender expression" is covered under the one size fits all "gender" that the setting of Armageddon appears to roll with.
Hence, aside from a male wishing they could bear a child, or a female wishing she could impregnate another female ... it's difficult to envision what a transgendered Zalanthan would even be. Aside from that single peculiar quirk ... there is nothing for a trans-gendered Zalanthan to look at and think "I wish society associated those attitudes, feelings, and behaviors with me ..." ... ... because Zalanthan society already would.
I mostly agree with Musashi except for his poor understanding of third gender. There are definitely more than 2 gender roles in two ways:
1. Each culture perceives maleness and femaleness differently
2. Some cultures express additional genders.
While I do agree that third gender roles to fit non gender normative behaviours into a societal framework is an example of gender binary, some cultures do express this in different ways. Some east european cultures have historically struggled to have enough men for the tribe or village, meaning some women will have to adopt a male role. Often this is chaste, and they are not considered men or women. This is an example of how the binary for that culture is not being enforced - were there enough men, this gender role of sworn virgin would not exist. That's not the only example but I'm in the bath so brevity is important.
It is true that for humans and our close animal relatives, some gender is commonly biologically baked in. Men and women have different brains and brain chemistry. It is then amplified or suppressed by social construction, and I would argue this is far more significant.
Transsexualism is understood culturally again. The west considers it medical these days. We previously considered it mental illness, immorality, directly related to hermaphrodites (and all the religious trappings of that) or a demonic or ancestral curse. Other modern cultures consider it third sex, its own identity, a demonic curse or literally homosexuality.
So, with that in mind, I don't consider it to be of conflict enough on Zalanthas to be an identity. Being gay isn't either. As homosexuality is expressed as preference in Zalanthan culture, I believe it exists solely as a preference for the look or body parts of the other biological sex, without stigma or noteworthiness. In the same way as wanting to be shorter, blonde or more attractive might be.
I will note that I believe gender binary/roles exist in Zalanthas only in the sense that 'a woman' births children and 'a man' helps fertilise 'a woman'. Thassit. In Zalanthas, somebody could be one, both or neither.
Case, I think your example of a 3rd "gender" is ... again using the terms you and bardlyone seem more comfortable with ... an example of someone with a female "sex" having "gender expression" that aligns more with that society's masculine "gender" ... but instead of calling her a heathen they created a new "gender" in order to make her "gender expression" "gender normative".
Yes it's a new "gender" ... so long as if by "gender" you mean this:
Quote from: bardlyone on August 10, 2015, 01:56:58 AM
Quote
Definition of Terms
Gender
refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as
gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations
constitute gender non-conformity.
[Source: http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf ]
Instead of what most people take the word to mean, which is this:
Quote from: googling 'definition of gender'gen·der
ˈjendər/Submit
noun
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"
synonyms: sex
It's a semantic difference more than anything else. It's not that I don't understand these third genders as a concept. It's that the word gender has a totally different meaning in the American Psychological Association than it does in common conversation, much like the word "theory" in science vs. conventional language.
I was using the latter before, you and bardlyone are using the former.
You shouldn't then, because it's basic scientific terminology from before you were born, relevant to what you're arguing about. Normally you do use correct terminology, so trying to make it all about semantics is pretty pathetic coming from you.
When I use 'gender role', I mean 'cultural role' to be quite honest, but it's more approachable term for anybody reading what I wrote. You could read what I wrote in the context of layman use of 'gender' however, and I'd still be making a point, because all cultures view biological male and female differently -too-.
Quote from: Case on August 10, 2015, 04:31:08 AM
You shouldn't then, because it's basic scientific terminology from before you were born, relevant to what you're arguing about. Normally you do use correct terminology, so trying to make it all about semantics is pretty pathetic coming from you.
... The American Psychological Association didn't revise it's terms until 2011, as per the source bardlyone provided. Prior to that gender appears to have been used interchangeably with sex just like it still is in common parlance. I'm a little older than 4.
And please try to keep the personal insults to a minimum. I think it would be slightly more charitable for you give me the benefit of the doubt that I was in fact using the terminology in fashion when I was still in college being formatively exposed to the topic.
If terms have been twerked/added since then ... that's fine. Potato Patado, I'll just rephrase my argument accordingly, nothing about it has qualitatively changed.
Quote from: Case on August 10, 2015, 04:31:08 AM
When I use 'gender role', I mean 'cultural role' to be quite honest, but it's more approachable term for anybody reading what I wrote. You could read what I wrote in the context of layman use of 'gender' however, and I'd still be making a point, because all cultures view biological male and female differently -too-.
And while all cultures have superficial differences in which they paint masculine and feminine, all cultures share a basic set of very similar expectations from which the superficial differences diverge. And those expectations are rooted in the diamorphism of our sexes.
In fact, it's not just all humans, it's all primate species.
That aside, I think we both agree that Zalanthas does not share such a basic set of similar expectations. And moreover ... does not even have any significant superficial differences. Yes?
That's the crux of why I think the state of being trans-gendered would be largely meaningless in Zalanthas to begin with.
Quote from: musashi on August 10, 2015, 12:46:36 AM
Quote from: Jingo on August 10, 2015, 12:18:06 AM
Quote from: musashi on August 09, 2015, 11:39:27 PM
Gender roles are rooted in biology brought on by our sexual diamorphism ... so I can't even blame people for letting such a strong part of our own hard wiring creep into the game.
Everything you think you know about gender is a fiction that you were taught from childhood. And the reaction you have is a not a biological one, but instead cognitive dissonance based on what you think is the appropriate performance for a gender.
It's ... really not. At all. But going into a discussion about certain strains of progressive political ideology vs. scientific studies on gender roles in animals as relating to their biological sexual traits is perhaps beyond the purview of this thread.
No. When you get squicked from a man wearing a dress, it's not coming from your balls. Sorry.
Quote from: Jingo on August 10, 2015, 05:27:38 AM
No. When you get squicked from a man wearing a dress, it's not coming from your balls. Sorry.
I ... don't even know what this is supposed to be mean or what kind of point it's supposed to convey. Sorry.
I'm guessing that you mean something like: Trans-phobia is not derived from your own biological sex?
To which I would say, no, it isn't. But that's not what I said, or in any way related to what I thought you were saying.
I thought we were talking about "gender" or "gender identity" if you want to use the new term for it, and whether or not it is a cultural construct or a biologically determined dispotition. That's totally unrelated to anyone's bigotry or lack thereof.
The lack of defined gender roles might make playing a transsexual anti-climactic, but, I think it fits the docs. In my arm men can wear all the dresses they want. The dresses should be geographically and socioeconomically appropriate and a flattering color. Maybe it's wrong of me, but I think if you're playing it differently you're wrong.
The docs do suggest that there are certain types of clothing that are more commonly worn by one sex over another. But I don't think that people are supposed to care too much if you cross those boundaries, and there is even an organization that makes one of those articles of clothing their uniform regardless of sex, so I don't think it's ever really noteworthy. If those docs are wrong, they can be changed and I will not bat an eyelash.
Waaaaaat? Zalanthas has never been Ancillary Justice Fantasy MUD.
Quote from: musashi on August 10, 2015, 12:46:36 AMQuote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM
~ The selection of male or female at character creation determines your character's presentation. It codedly results in assigning your character's pronouns and what other players will assume your character's sex is at a glance. It is not tied to anything physiological or psychological about your character - you are free to play your character as you wish. This is in line with our policy of zero sexual dimorphism in our currently playable races.
Context suggests that "sexual dimorphism" means "coded sexual dimorphism".
No matter what the docs say, if you're a male wearing a cutesy pink dress with matching stockings and high heels, prepare to file a lot of players' complaint because many will mock/question your character for it and you're just constantly going to have to try and explain to them that it's perfectly normal to do so.
I don't really care too much about the fashion thing, just as long as no one FREAKS OUT when a guy wears a dress. Some people freaked out when my guy wore a skirt, some treated it as slightly odd but okay, other people treated it like normal, and yet others acknowledged he was wearing female-cut clothing but didn't seem to give a shit. I treated the first option as strange--the other three, I accepted. There are really two options, the way I see it.
- Dresses are more commonly worn by females, but no one cares when a male wears one, because nobody gives a shit about gender on Zalanthas.
- Dresses are worn equally by males and females, because all fashion is gender-neutral.
I think the first one makes more sense based on the docs, the descriptions of clothing, and NPCs I have seen, and is more interesting, but I will accept the second.
I know this thread is about transgenderism and all, but I'm still really caught up on this point, so sorry, please bear with me. What really gives me pause is that some people are proposing that there really aren't men and women at all, just people with binary reproductive organs. In that case I do not see the point of anyone having "man" or "woman" in their sdesc. I understand the no sexism rule, and I LOVE that women are 100% as strong and have no limitations on Zalanthas. I now literally cannot stomach RPIs that do it any other way. But I think the way some people are proposing it is...really boring and more alienating to women than empowering. I say this as a woman, even though I play a lot of male characters. If I want to play a strong warrior woman, I want to play a strong warrior woman and not think that she's basically a genderless alien that is no more likely to have what we Earthlings think of as "female" voice or "female" facial features than the male VNPC across the street.
Now, I am certainly not saying she has to be "pretty" or "feminine," but I would like to think that unless I envision or describe her differently, she's recognizable as female at a glance, and not just because bewbs. I can't identify all that well with a female that's only female because of a vagina and mammaries, and I'm not talking about stereotypes like "more nurturing" or "more emotional" or "stays in the kitchen." (Not saying I can't identify with a masculine-looking female, either, because I've played two and loved them, but they fell at that end of the spectrum deliberately, and that was part of their character design, hopefully not just a meaningless characteristic in a world where the sexes look exactly the same!) I'm just saying, while I love the no-sexism rule, if she's just as likely to look like Willie Robertson with a vag and breasts (sorry) as she is Boudica, I don't feel all that excited about that as a woman.
And I don't think it's all that thrilling for people who want to play transgendered roles, either, and find themselves wondering what secondary sex characteristics even exist. I can tell that the staff want this game to be welcoming to people of all walks of life, and I appreciate all they have done to reach out to women, minorities, and sexual minorities, but I think it has gone too far with the sexual homogeneity thing. It's unnecessary and counterproductive and everyone is disagreeing about where we stand. Some people think that women are equally likely to have beards as men, others disagree, clarification would be nice.
Quote from: Malken on August 10, 2015, 11:21:37 AM
No matter what the docs say, if you're a male wearing a cutesy pink dress with matching stockings and high heels, prepare to file a lot of players' complaint because many will mock/question your character for it and you're just constantly going to have to try and explain to them that it's perfectly normal to do so.
THIS. I have experienced SIGNIFICANT IG consequences for doing just this. Having a male character do things one would, in American society, identify as female, or the other way around, has resulted in some serious negative consequences. It shouldn't be that way, before I started playing the game, another player on Hellmoo asked me if I could actually hack it, because of the rule that gender roles were not acknowledged, told me it was pretty serious, and that I could get banned for it, I proceeded to read the rules on it, and said, yeah, I can dig it.
But some can't. When they realize their mistake, they'll cook up new IC arguments to cover it, but it still doesn't change anything. Good luck submitting a player complaint about it, though, because it's not even in the helpfiles, you have to dig into the quickstart guide to find it, so if you see someone making this mistake, you can't just ooc them to look at a helpfile, and the behavior continues. Sexual preferences is another thing there's a lot of misconceptions on IG. My characters don't always have the same preferences I do, monogamy, polyamory, bisexuality, none of these things should matter, yet, time and again, I keep seeing them become a serious IG issue. Players naturally slip into their RL mentality, apply these rules, then drive plots and consequences, from them. After I read the core documents carefully, I thought this shouldn't happen, but it does. It's not in line with what I thought I was signing up for.
Quote from: Revenant on August 10, 2015, 11:56:39 AM
Quote from: Malken on August 10, 2015, 11:21:37 AM
No matter what the docs say, if you're a male wearing a cutesy pink dress with matching stockings and high heels, prepare to file a lot of players' complaint because many will mock/question your character for it and you're just constantly going to have to try and explain to them that it's perfectly normal to do so.
THIS. I have experienced SIGNIFICANT IG consequences for doing just this. Having a male character do things one would, in American society, identify as female, or the other way around, has resulted in some serious negative consequences. It shouldn't be that way, before I started playing the game, another player on Hellmoo asked me if I could actually hack it, because of the rule that gender roles were not acknowledged, told me it was pretty serious, and that I could get banned for it, I proceeded to read the rules on it, and said, yeah, I can dig it.
But some can't. When they realize their mistake, they'll cook up new IC arguments to cover it, but it still doesn't change anything. Good luck submitting a player complaint about it, though, because it's not even in the helpfiles, you have to dig into the quickstart guide to find it, so if you see someone making this mistake, you can't just ooc them to look at a helpfile, and the behavior continues. Sexual preferences is another thing there's a lot of misconceptions on IG. My characters don't always have the same preferences I do, monogamy, polyamory, bisexuality, none of these things should matter, yet, time and again, I keep seeing them become a serious IG issue. Players naturally slip into their RL mentality, apply these rules, then drive plots and consequences, from them. After I read the core documents carefully, I thought this shouldn't happen, but it does. It's not in line with what I thought I was signing up for.
I sorta got into a situation like that a while back, when a male PC was hitting on my PC and I told him something like "You don't have the bits that I enjoy in a sexual partner" and the guy sounded pissed both ICly and OOCly.
Am I wrong for not wanting to be in an homosexual relationship (which I think is perfectly fine for those who are into it) just because it's supposed to be a normal thing in the world we play in? While I'm sure my PC would/might feel totally fine with it, I don't think I would enjoy/be comfortable with it myself.
Sometime I feel like we're going way too far to make a point about the lack of sex differences in game (again, I think it's a great rule so that's not my point). Should every PCs be bisexual and not blink an eye when they spot a male guy wearing a pink dress with matching stockings or a female PC walking around with nothing but a loincloth sitting in the Gaj? Maybe, but again, this is something that you're just going to get major headaches over and over again if you go for it - So if you go for it, do realize that you're going against majorly ingrained cultural thoughts and norms that many players won't be able to totally shove aside.
I agree with you entirely, Malken. No one should push it past no.
I've had a similar issue playing a combat pc looking for a job and instead got an IC/ooc lecture from a group in the gaj that I was playing wrong because my pc didn't want to be a whore.
Edited to add, I agree no one should tell you your pc should want to, or have to have sex with anyone else if they don't.
I don't agree that playing your pc's tastes whatever they are should elicit any particular reaction, unless it's well, your beetle. Or your kid. Or a breed. Wear your pink dress. Wear the hell out of it. And if anyone gives you shit, lop off their head with your bone sword.
I don't think every PC should have to be bisexual, although I think bisexuality is very theme-appropriate. The docs say homosexuality is "common," not universal, and is not seen as aberrant. It certainly doesn't say that everyone is required to play a character that is willing to accept homosexual (or heterosexual) advances. Kinda different with the dress thing--people who react negatively should probably just let it go, although I do think that many people who wear those sorts of things are probably baiting. I didn't think I was, although there was probably a little bit of that sort of thing there.
Barz...yeah, I have experienced things like that IG, and it is pretty sigh-worthy.
That reminds me.
There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:
"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."
Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms of sexuality are okay!
Quote from: Delirium on August 10, 2015, 12:24:10 PM
Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms of sexuality are okay!
Aaaaalllll forms? ;)
Hey, what happens between that man and his beetle is between them.
Never get between a man and his mount.
Unless that's your thing.
Quote from: EvilRoeSlade on August 09, 2015, 11:26:11 PM
So men don't have more facial hair than women?
There's no difference in facial structure, women's aren't rounder and softer around the edges?
They don't have more body hair with a coarser consistency?
A woman's hips aren't wider than a mans?
A man's shoulders don't tend to be wider?
Their skin is the same level of coarseness?
Men are just as likely to have big, bubbly butts?
By the way, these are all sexual characteristics and have nothing intrinsically to do with gender.
Quote from: Delirium on August 10, 2015, 12:24:10 PM
That reminds me.
There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:
"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."
Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms of sexuality are okay!
This. Because there is IC and OOC pressure to force players to play gay or bisexual, and not just female PCs. I think the idea is, it's alright for you to play your PC's sexuality however you want, and the population of Zalanthis won't think it's anything unusual. But there's a underlying belief/effort/whatever you want to call it, that makes it seem wrong if you don't play a bisexual PC.
Acceptance and understanding has to go both ways, or it won't exist at all.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 10, 2015, 11:11:31 AM
Quote from: musashi on August 10, 2015, 12:46:36 AMQuote from: Rathustra on August 07, 2015, 06:32:35 AM
~ The selection of male or female at character creation determines your character's presentation. It codedly results in assigning your character's pronouns and what other players will assume your character's sex is at a glance. It is not tied to anything physiological or psychological about your character - you are free to play your character as you wish. This is in line with our policy of zero sexual dimorphism in our currently playable races.
Context suggests that "sexual dimorphism" means "coded sexual dimorphism".
Exactly. Otherwise, what does it even mean to present as male or female?
In any case, I feel like if 'no sexism' is meant to have all these implications in this thread, that should be clarified in documentation.
Quote from: Refugee on August 10, 2015, 02:19:29 PM
Quote from: Delirium on August 10, 2015, 12:24:10 PM
That reminds me.
There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:
"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."
Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms of sexuality are okay!
This. Because there is IC and OOC pressure to force players to play gay or bisexual, and not just female PCs. I think the idea is, it's alright for you to play your PC's sexuality however you want, and the population of Zalanthis won't think it's anything unusual. But there's a underlying belief/effort/whatever you want to call it, that makes it seem wrong if you don't play a bisexual PC.
Acceptance and understanding has to go both ways, or it won't exist at all.
Maybe they just really want you!
The only thing that bothers me is when someone says 'I'm gay,' 'I'm straight,' 'I'm bisexual,' or 'I'm a lesbian.' Hardly ever happens, but it's really weird when it does. Those terms seem really out of place.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 01:59:16 PMBy the way, these are all sexual characteristics and have nothing intrinsically to do with gender.
Yes that's a list of secondary sexual characteristics, in this topic that's about transsexuals and not transgenderuals.
Given the number of people that seem to think the only difference between the sexes is 'wang and vag' I thought it would be helpful to point out.
My pcs sexuality is based on their 'feel.' If they feel gay or straight or bisexual, there they are. Gaydar is useful with me.
Zalanthans aren't preprogrammed to have an "any port in a storm" mentality. Homo/hetero/bisexuality simply don't matter. People will have their preferences, and interpersonal conflicts or stress might result from a case of incompatible orientations, but there's no social stigma associated with identifying as one sexuality or another.
The same goes for gender. There are biological differences between the two, though variations of that would be seen as a mutation at worst, and more often wouldn't be cause for notice until it came to sexy time.
The equality between genders is more concerned with gender roles. Concepts like "men fight, women cook" aren't in place. A man telling a woman to stay back and let the men do the fighting could expect to get his ass kicked and teeth knocked in.
In the case of relationships, a dominant/submissive dynamic might exist where one person takes on roles that we as players typically associate with masculinity and the other femininity, but this dynamic wouldn't extend beyond the relationship. Expecting one gender to always act a certain way would be abnormal.
On the topic of transsexuality, it could certainly exist. Just not wholly in the form that our society views it as. Where transvestism is concerned, a man could dress in clothes designed for women and women could wear clothes designed for men in mind, and for some it might be seen as a little odd - because some types of clothing are made with a specific body type in mind and someone without that body type is going to either be uncomfortable or look silly.
(RL Side Note: You'd think things like sweatpants would be gender neutral. Hoo boy, I'll never make that mistake again.)
Without clearly defined gender roles, this aspect of transsexuality isn't going to exist. However, that still leaves room for body image dissonance. A man could feel like he should've been born a woman, or a woman could wish she were a man.
There could be many reasons why, but I'll generalize and say that it's a desire to see yourself and be viewed by the world as your ideal self. Given how popular exercise, tanning, and expensive clothing/accessories are, I think most people can appreciate a desire to feel and be seen as attractive. Hopefully the desire for attractiveness for self is something attainable - but in Zalanthas, it most likely wouldn't be. It's not possible with the technology available to add things that aren't there, only to take away. Although removal of breasts or a penis would be crude, and likely would result in infection or death.
Struggling to attain that self image could be an interesting conflict to pursue. It could also lead to interpersonal conflict when the individual meets a person who possesses the traits and qualities that they wish they could have. How is that going to affect their interactions with this person? Will they show admiration? Jealousy? Hatred?
Regardless, this shouldn't be the character's only defining characteristic, because it'd get old real fast.
surprisingly civil discussion in this thread, and plenty to consider. I think many other forums would have gone nuclear by now. :)
Quote from: Delirium on August 10, 2015, 12:24:10 PM
That reminds me.
There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:
"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."
Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms of sexuality are okay!
I played both a totally gay and totally straight PC within the past year so I'm trying Del! :) It was really different in both cases surprisingly, had much more influence on my PC's behaviour than I thought.
Quote from: musashi on August 10, 2015, 04:41:43 AM
Quote from: Case on August 10, 2015, 04:31:08 AM
When I use 'gender role', I mean 'cultural role' to be quite honest, but it's more approachable term for anybody reading what I wrote. You could read what I wrote in the context of layman use of 'gender' however, and I'd still be making a point, because all cultures view biological male and female differently -too-.
And while all cultures have superficial differences in which they paint masculine and feminine, all cultures share a basic set of very similar expectations from which the superficial differences diverge. And those expectations are rooted in the diamorphism of our sexes.
In fact, it's not just all humans, it's all primate species.
That aside, I think we both agree that Zalanthas does not share such a basic set of similar expectations. And moreover ... does not even have any significant superficial differences. Yes?
That's the crux of why I think the state of being trans-gendered would be largely meaningless in Zalanthas to begin with.
Yeah, I do agree with the conclusion, although not necessarily how you reflect the cultural end of the discussion.
As for gender vs sex, I apologise if I annoyed you. Was grumpy before bed. However, I don't care about American Psych's terms for it, I'm not from America anyway and European psych is a thing, but I am aware that the issue of gender identity is only recently medical in mainstream science. I hinted at that in my post even. I believe gender vs sex is more sociological than medical (or at least gender is) and handled it as such. I'm entirely neutral to psychology's view on it and don't believe it's particularly useful to discuss.
Quote from: Case on August 10, 2015, 03:02:00 PM
Quote from: Delirium on August 10, 2015, 12:24:10 PM
That reminds me.
There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:
"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."
I played both a totally gay and totally straight PC within the past year so I'm trying Del! :) It was really different in both cases surprisingly, had much more influence on my PC's behaviour than I thought.
It's certainly led to some interesting situations, which turned out to be far more interesting and poignant than they would have if I'd decided to cheap out and let them hook up just because it was fun to RP with that other person, or whatever. I get the impression that happens a lot more than it should. "Oh this is the only non-virtual girl in my clan, time to ignore all the reasons why my character wouldn't actually be attracted to them and start mercilessly hitting on them!" It drives me a little batty. I see both genders doing it. I ignore it.
I guess my point is, I think "fluid sexual mores" can be used as an excuse too often instead of a way to further define your character.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 10, 2015, 11:24:14 AM
What really gives me pause is that some people are proposing that there really aren't men and women at all, just people with binary reproductive organs. In that case I do not see the point of anyone having "man" or "woman" in their sdesc. I understand the no sexism rule, and I LOVE that women are 100% as strong and have no limitations on Zalanthas. I now literally cannot stomach RPIs that do it any other way. But I think the way some people are proposing it is...really boring and more alienating to women than empowering. I say this as a woman, even though I play a lot of male characters. If I want to play a strong warrior woman, I want to play a strong warrior woman and not think that she's basically a genderless alien that is no more likely to have what we Earthlings think of as "female" voice or "female" facial features than the male VNPC across the street.
And I don't think it's all that thrilling for people who want to play transgendered roles, either, and find themselves wondering what secondary sex characteristics even exist. I can tell that the staff want this game to be welcoming to people of all walks of life, and I appreciate all they have done to reach out to women, minorities, and sexual minorities, but I think it has gone too far with the sexual homogeneity thing. It's unnecessary and counterproductive and everyone is disagreeing about where we stand. Some people think that women are equally likely to have beards as men, others disagree, clarification would be nice.
It's a little frustrating reading this if it's how you took my post above (and that of others) but it made me think at least.
I was describing the idea of the gender roles I believe hold in Zalanthas without comment as to expression or expectation beyond potential to perform a binary reproductive function I guess I see it as empowering. It doesn't mean men and women look the same, because there are trappings of biology to allow reproductive function, but it means they could. I roleplay my PCs as sexually dimorphic (usually modelled on people I dated since I hate writing descs heh) but I do not believe that feminineness or masculiness are expected qualities associated with the biological sexes IG. In turn, biological sex should not inform feminineness or masculiness IG. We load those terms as players. If we're referring to physical differences, voice, propensities for boobs or facial hair or whatever, these are biological. Clothing should be fashioned around what fits well.
Don't know how I can explain it better Beethoven :*(. It's not like I play many men so I obviously accept some differences.
It wasn't you, Case, I promise, or anyone who has been saying anything similar to what you have been saying. I didn't want to say it was Dman, because he hasn't posted in the conversation in a while and I didn't want to force him back into it, but...it's mostly Dman. I completely agree with you that there should be no GENDER roles on Zalanthas, and that has been established time and time again by staff. I guess I should have been more clear about whose opinions I was specifically irked with, because I don't want to be misunderstood here.
Desertman says there are zero BIOLOGICAL differences between women and men except for the boobs and the genitals. Women have beards, Adam's apples, deep, gravelly voices, "masculine" facial features, etc., just as often as men. That is all I disagree with. Nothing you have been saying has been at all objectionable to me, Case.
I guess I just kind of wondered if other people agreed with Dman, that this is the way biological sex should be treated IG.
You can _try_ to say that women and men in Zalanthas have only one biological difference, but I doubt most of the playerbase would bite.
I've never played a gay pc either... I just don't know how to pretend to be attracted to lady parts. If I played a male pc who had an active social life instead of just being a juggernaut of suicidal chaos, I suppose he would probably be gay. Maybe my next pc will be a dude.
the most outrageous suggestion on this thread has been Taijan's claim that sweatpants aren't gender neutral though
I demand satisfaction and the right to sweatpants
Quote from: LauraMars on August 10, 2015, 05:12:49 PM
the most outrageous suggestion on this thread has been Taijan's claim that sweatpants aren't gender neutral though
I demand satisfaction and the right to sweatpants
Quote from: LauraMars on August 10, 2015, 05:12:49 PM
I've never played a gay pc either... I just don't know how to pretend to be attracted to lady parts. If I played a male pc who had an active social life instead of just being a juggernaut of suicidal chaos, I suppose he would probably be gay. Maybe my next pc will be a dude.
the most outrageous suggestion on this thread has been Taijan's claim that sweatpants aren't gender neutral though
I demand satisfaction and the right to sweatpants
I tried them on, LauraMars.
It hurt me.
Are you sure they were sweatpants? Not maybe yoga pants? Tights? A girdle?
Cross-posting this zinger
Quote from: Barzalene on August 10, 2015, 06:03:53 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 06:02:14 PM
Guys, you're letting yourselves get distracted from the real issue challenging the playerbase: whether male PCs can wear dresses or not.
Some better than others!
Quote from: Taijan on August 10, 2015, 05:28:22 PMI tried them on, LauraMars.
It hurt me.
??? hurt your fashion sense you mean?
(http://images.hoodboyz.de/product_images/original_images/510/urban-classics-cargo-sweatpants-sweat-pant-grey_51035_0.jpg)
The crotch seams started way too high, and they weren't baggy despite supposedly being large. It was almost like they were made for someone with subtle anatomical differences.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6677166_differences-women_s-men_s-sweat-pants.html
Those grey ones look pretty nice.
I never thought about the difference. i thought if sweatpants were baggy enough nothing mattered. The more you know. ==✯
I guess the guy hoodies I sometimes wear do tend to have an annoying tendency to fall off because the shoulders are so wide
glad we've cleared that up
But! If we had further followups on the issue of sweatpants, should we file a Staff Complaint or just a Request/Question? Thanks in advance!
Quote from: nauta on August 10, 2015, 07:01:37 PM
But! If we had further followups on the issue of sweatpants, should we file a Staff Complaint or just a Request/Question? Thanks in advance!
Going to mastercraft some sweatpants. In the notes section "make too small for Taijan to wear".
(http://orig03.deviantart.net/fe0b/f/2010/149/0/8/sad_panda_chibi_by_mshydeplz.png)
I played another mud that had layers of clothing..if you wore a bra it changed your he's to she's in emotes ect. I thought it was neat it had a Transgender staffer.
Quote from: Bast on August 11, 2015, 01:56:03 AM
I played another mud that had layers of clothing..if you wore a bra it changed your he's to she's in emotes ect. I thought it was neat it had a Transgender staffer.
Sounds neat do you remember the name?
I skipped from page 2 of the discussion to page 9.
Would do it again, we're talking about sweatpants?
Quote from: Bast on August 11, 2015, 01:56:03 AM
I played another mud that had layers of clothing..if you wore a bra it changed your he's to she's in emotes ect. I thought it was neat it had a Transgender staffer.
Sweet, so we can remove females from the game after all
Then we can finally enforce the socialist leftist gay agenda of the nazi liberals?
Quote from: Beethoven on August 10, 2015, 04:07:21 PM
Desertman says there are zero BIOLOGICAL differences between women and men except for the boobs and the genitals. Women have beards, Adam's apples, deep, gravelly voices, "masculine" facial features, etc., just as often as men. That is all I disagree with. Nothing you have been saying has been at all objectionable to me, Case.
The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman is here being ostracized for not looking "feminine enough" based on RL standards.
The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman draws her massive greatsword, flexing her thirty inch biceps and snarling. The petite, ivory-skinned, pert-nosed woman says, mockingly in southern-accented sirihish, giving her dress a flick with a hand, "Hahah, Beth looks like a man!!!!". (Also, beastly-muscled is a pretty awesome desc. Feel free to steal that.)
Quote from: Desertman on August 11, 2015, 04:22:36 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on August 10, 2015, 04:07:21 PM
Desertman says there are zero BIOLOGICAL differences between women and men except for the boobs and the genitals. Women have beards, Adam's apples, deep, gravelly voices, "masculine" facial features, etc., just as often as men. That is all I disagree with. Nothing you have been saying has been at all objectionable to me, Case.
The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman is here being ostracized for not looking "feminine enough" based on RL standards.
The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman draws her massive greatsword, flexing her thirty inch biceps and snarling.
The petite, ivory-skinned, pert-nosed woman says, mockingly in southern-accented sirihish, giving her dress a flick with a hand, "Hahah, Beth looks like a man!!!!".
(Also, beastly-muscled is a pretty awesome desc. Feel free to steal that.)
Yeah, you don't seem to get what I am saying. You seem to think that if women have any characteristics at all that separate them from men, then we automatically get to mock women for deviating from them in any way, and the same goes for men. I just don't agree with that all-or-nothing, slippery-slope approach.
Neither should you, and here's why.
You DO seem to recognize that breasts ARE a characteristic that women on Zalanthas have that men don't typically have, right? I mean, you acknowledged that a dude with breasts on Zalanthas would likely be seen as a mutie, so, yeah, you do. So, should a flatter-chested woman whose breasts maybe aren't visible when she wears clothing be mocked and ridiculed for looking too much like a man, too? I mean, according to your argument, she should, right, since that's literally one of the only two things that visibly separate men from women, if you're correct about the utter lack of secondary sex characteristics. But the answer is no, because looking like a man isn't a negative thing on Zalanthas, and neither is looking like a woman. It's a total non-issue, because being a man and being a woman are equal, and neither is associated with "strength" or "weakness" or being "nurturing" or "protective" or any other words like that.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 11, 2015, 04:44:13 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 11, 2015, 04:22:36 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on August 10, 2015, 04:07:21 PM
Desertman says there are zero BIOLOGICAL differences between women and men except for the boobs and the genitals. Women have beards, Adam's apples, deep, gravelly voices, "masculine" facial features, etc., just as often as men. That is all I disagree with. Nothing you have been saying has been at all objectionable to me, Case.
The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman is here being ostracized for not looking "feminine enough" based on RL standards.
The beastly-muscled, lantern-jawed, bearded, deep-voiced woman draws her massive greatsword, flexing her thirty inch biceps and snarling.
The petite, ivory-skinned, pert-nosed woman says, mockingly in southern-accented sirihish, giving her dress a flick with a hand, "Hahah, Beth looks like a man!!!!".
(Also, beastly-muscled is a pretty awesome desc. Feel free to steal that.)
Yeah, you don't seem to get what I am saying. You seem to think that if women have any characteristics at all that separate them from men, then we automatically get to mock women for deviating from them in any way, and the same goes for men. I just don't agree with that all-or-nothing, slippery-slope approach.
Neither should you, and here's why.
You DO seem to recognize that breasts ARE a characteristic that women on Zalanthas have that men don't typically have, right? I mean, you acknowledged that a dude with breasts on Zalanthas would likely be seen as a mutie, so, yeah, you do. So, should a flatter-chested woman whose breasts maybe aren't visible when she wears clothing be mocked and ridiculed for looking too much like a man, too? I mean, according to your argument, she should, right, since that's literally one of the only two things that visibly separate men from women, if you're correct about the utter lack of secondary sex characteristics. But the answer is no, because looking like a man isn't a negative thing on Zalanthas, and neither is looking like a woman. It's a total non-issue, because being a man and being a woman are equal, and neither is associated with "strength" or "weakness" or being "nurturing" or "protective" or any other words like that.
You are very much of the opinion that I am stating everyone has to follow a "middle ground androgynous" template.
When in fact I am not stating that in any way. I believe if you read back, I specifically stated if anything, that's exactly what I'm not saying.
You are viewing my opinion as this:
100% of people are androgynous.
Which isn't what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is this:
20% of people are androgynous (You can't tell much of a difference at all, if any at all.)
20% are women with masculine qualities (You know it's a woman, but she has very "manly" features and characteristics.)
20% are men with feminine qualities (You know it's a man, but he has very "feminine" features and characteristics.)
20% are men who "look like men".
20% are women who "look like women".
What you are saying is I'm taking a hardline stance that everyone has to look the same way.
What I'm actually saying is I'm taking a hardline stance that everyone doesn't look the same way....but instead that no single "gender stereotype" has the upper hand across the board.
There is just as much of -this- as there is of -that-....so you can play it however you want and look however you want in terms of gender stereotypes, and nobody can call you out on it.
You are acting like I'm trying to force people to play a certain way. What I'm trying to do is explain to everyone that everyone has the freedom to play exactly what they want on this front.
Let me clarify, Dman, sorry, because you keep repeating the androgynous thing and I think you misunderstood because I did not express myself clearly. When I say 100% of people IG are androgynous, I am saying that is because they are androgynous in the context of the game world, because men and women look pretty much exactly the same. If you look at a person who does not have visible boobs or a bulge, it is impossible to tell if they are a man or a woman. In that sense, 100% of people IG are androgynous, or more accurately, "androgynous" is an utterly meaningless term.
Quote from: Beethoven on August 11, 2015, 04:58:31 PM
Let me clarify, Dman, sorry, because you keep repeating the androgynous thing and I think you misunderstood because I did not express myself clearly. When I say 100% of people IG are androgynous, I am saying that is because they are androgynous in the context of the game world, because men and women look pretty much exactly the same. If you look at a person who does not have visible boobs or a bulge, it is impossible to tell if they are a man or a woman. In that sense, 100% of people IG are androgynous, or more accurately, "androgynous" is an utterly meaningless term.
You are absolutely right. I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I admit that might be because of my lack of an ability to understand.
But, either way...I still don't know what you are trying to tell me. So, I will bow out and agree to disagree with you....or maybe even agree with you....I'm not sure if I do or not....because I just do not get what is being said.
Either way...I give you a handshake on the issue and invite you to play whatever you want and I will do the same. :)
This is a lot of trouble for the one trans character we get per King's Age.
I'm going to give it one more crack. I think I am a complete idiot at expressing myself, and I just want to try again, even though you've now thrown in the towel.
If men and women look exactly the same IG other than females having boobs and men having a bulge, then all people are "androgynous" by IG standards--I guess unless they have very prominent boobs or a very prominent bulge. That would be the IG equivalent of being very visibly one sex or the other. Otherwise, it's always a bit of a gray area, according to the lore as you have described it. If women are just as likely to have beards or Adam's apples as men, and men are just as likely to have wide hips as women, and everyone's voices are in the same spectrum with no tendencies between the genders, the ONLY way to tell them apart is by the breasts or the genitalia. So to me, that means a lot of people are "androgynous." Maybe not by Earth standards, sure, but in the sense that it's often nearly impossible to discern the difference, since there are only two characteristics that can be used to do so, and they are not always visible. Perhaps it's the wrong word, but that is what I meant.
Yes, I will play whatever I want, and you will play whatever you want. It just bothers me that I seem to be really stupid at getting my point across since both you and Case seem to have totally misunderstood. :(
Quote from: Beethoven on August 11, 2015, 05:09:15 PM
I'm going to give it one more crack. I think I am a complete idiot at expressing myself, and I just want to try again, even though you've now thrown in the towel.
If men and women look exactly the same IG other than females having boobs and men having a bulge, then all people are "androgynous" by IG standards--I guess unless they have very prominent boobs or a very prominent bulge. That would be the IG equivalent of being very visibly one sex or the other. Otherwise, it's always a bit of a gray area, according to the lore as you have described it. If women are just as likely to have beards or Adam's apples as men, and men are just as likely to have wide hips as women, and everyone's voices are in the same spectrum with no tendencies between the genders, the ONLY way to tell them apart is by the breasts or the genitalia. So to me, that means a lot of people are "androgynous." Maybe not by Earth standards, sure, but in the sense that it's often nearly impossible to discern the difference, since there are only two characteristics that can be used to do so, and they are not always visible. Perhaps it's the wrong word, but that is what I meant.
Yes, I will play whatever I want, and you will play whatever you want. It just bothers me that I seem to be really stupid at getting my point across since both you and Case seem to have totally misunderstood. :(
Fair enough.
I'm actually surprised the discussion has remained civil for so long, given how politically charged the topic is IRL.
Reading over this thread, it doesn't seem like there are any actual disagreements ... just people so ready to break out the ideological pitch forks that they pounce on what they assume to be intolerant bigoted trans-phobia, when it's actually just their own opinion being expressed with a different sex of words.
Normally that's enough to pick a fight. Glad it hasn't.
Sorry about the pitchfork. But it isn't just ideological.
Enviroment may have more to do with differences in gender than you might think.
Listen to this if you want a bit more information on my point of view on the issue.
http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Ideas/ID/2309328901/ (http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Ideas/ID/2309328901/)
Jingo I think it's been covered already that when I referenced "gender" I was referring to the concept now re-branded as "gender identity".
So understand that I was talking about this:
QuoteGender identity refers to "one's sense of oneself as male, female, or transgender" (American
Psychological Association, 2006). When one's gender identity and biological sex are not
congruent, the individual may identify as transsexual or as another transgender category (cf.
Gainor, 2000).
Not this.
QuoteGender refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as
gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations
constitute gender non-conformity.
Is that podcast talking about how "gender identity" is the result of environment? Or "gender"? If it's the former I'll give it a listen because I disagree. If it's the latter then I don't disagree.
I suppose I don't see an incredible difference between either definition. Since one's sense of oneness as a sex is going to be wrapped up in questions of acceptable gender performance no matter how hard you try to separate them.
So you think that whether someone identifies as a male or female in their own mind is the product of the environment they grew up in? I've seen that position from some people on the far left before and I'm always amazed at the apparent double thick it presents.
Homosexuals are born that way but transsexuals aren't? Or do you think that children can be taught to be gay as well?
I'm on the other side of the fence. I don't think any of that is a choice and exposure to it as a child is just going to engender tolerance rather than conversion.
But it seems like some people want gender roles to be totally a social construct in order to push their strain of feminism ... yet they have to reconcile that with the trans-gendered community they are inadvertently casting to the wolves by saying "Yeah well ... you actually weren't born that way." in the same breath.
I actually suspect changing the definition of gender role to gender ... and gender to gender identity was an attempt to split that baby.
But alright, I'll listen to the podcast you posted. While I'm doing that, why don't you give the story of David Reimer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) a read and then we'll take the topic to PM's.
EDIT: No longer relevant
EDIT: Also no longer relevant
Quote from: musashi on August 11, 2015, 08:11:01 PM
So you think that whether someone identifies as a male or female in their own mind is the product of the environment they grew up in? I've seen that position from some people on the far left before and I'm always amazed at the apparent double thick it presents.
Homosexuals are born that way but transsexuals aren't? Or do you think that children can be taught to be gay as well, thus validating the conservative right's fears about letting gay/trans tolerant material into classrooms etc.
It would seem to me that if you really can teach children to be gay, straight, bi, male, or female ... then the far right has a valid point of concern in not wanting their children to be exposed to those concepts.
I'm on the other side of the fence. I don't think any of that is a choice and exposure to it as a child is just going to engender tolerance rather than conversion.
But alright, I'll listen to the podcast you posted. While I'm doing that, why don't you give the story of David Reimer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) a read and then we'll take the topic to PM's.
I used to work for a district manager who spent most of his adult life unhappy because he tried his damndest to be straight, he had this issue with what he was on the inside, and fought hard to suppress it, even as an adult, went to camps and classes meant to make him straight, had, five children. Good fellow, actually, good manager... it wasn't until he was much older and his hair was grey and falling out that he said "You know what, I've been fighting this my whole damn life, and this is just, who I am." and allowed himself to be as he was. He said he was unhappy before, deeply so, but letting himself be liberated from his preconceived notions and learn to love what he was made his life quite a bit more tolerable. Sometimes, I think, life is a journey to free yourself from what you've been taught to think is right, and to accept what you actually feel is right. Life should be a celebration of all the opportunities we have to enjoy it, and not a rigid, mechanical doctrine on how we should behave ourselves. I understand that opens the door to a lot of scarier notions, but with empathy exercises and careful introspection I believe these could be avoided.
Also, no hot dogs on Friday.
I edited that out Beethoven because while it is a common pro-gay argument made by people that "they were born this way thus ... you shouldn't hate them" ...
It's not actually my position personally. I wouldn't hate them even if I knew for a fact that being gay or transsexual was as whimsical a lazy afternoon choice as deciding pizza or a sandwich.
I included it at first because it's been a popular pro gay argument in general, but then snipped that bit out because it's not actually a thing I find compelling.
Quote from: musashi on August 11, 2015, 08:31:40 PM
I edited that out Beethoven because while it is a common pro-gay argument made by people that "they were born this way thus ... you shouldn't hate them" ...
It's not actually my position personally. I wouldn't hate them even if I knew for a fact that being gay or transsexual was as whimsical a lazy afternoon choice as deciding pizza or a sandwich.
I included it at first because it's been a popular pro gay argument in general, but then snipped that bit out because it's not actually a thing I find compelling.
Then I will edit my bit out likewise. :)
And Revenant I think I'm 100% in your boat. My point is that society can try for all it's damnest to raise you and indoctrinate you as straight and cisgendered.
But if that isn't who you are ... then it isn't who you are. Thus, I reject the notion that gender identity, and sexual orientation are socialized behaviors, and lean instead in the direction I think the science supports ... that it's primarily a predetermined genetic disposition.
Well, not to compare sexuality or gender-identity to mental illness, but much like any other state of being, there can be both biological and environmental components... You can have genetically identical twins and one will develop a mental illness while the other will not. There are trigger events as well, you may be predisposed to cancer, and never encounter the situation that triggers it, like, not keeping a stash of uranium rods in your closet, or not contracting certain illnesses that cause it. For numerous mental illnesses, the conditions seem to require some kind of stress and abuse, possibly mental and/or physical. For other states of being, I can't really speak because I haven't really looked into the causes. As far as sexuality and gender-identity are concerned, I don't see them as problems so I have little reason to investigate the causes.
sex - biological, inborn
gender - society's idea of how the sexes should act.
It's really that simple.
When sex and gender do not match up, that is when you are considered transgender.
That's not saying you weren't born that way (You were born loving pink and dresses), that's saying that it's society telling you you're female because men don't wear dresses or like pink, due to gender roles. I don't really understand how you think I'm saying what you implied, there, musashi, unless you're talking about someone else I don't know? Because that doesn't conflict. If you were born as a guy who likes dick, that's not a choice, if you were born as a guy who likes pink (and also by extension of the example "feels like a woman"), also not a choice. I never said otherwise. I said that if society didn't have dictates for how a man acts and how a woman acts, gender roles and gender identity would be more or less irrelevant.
Bardlyone,
As I said before, we were using two separate definitions for the word gender.
You meant that. I meant what you would probably refer to as "gender identity".
But I'm a little confused now because even by the source material for the definitions you provided, transgender is not when gender and sex don't match up. It's when gender identity and sex don't match up.
I'm talking less about a man being born liking pink (a rather cosmetic cultural thing that could just as easily be associated with men or women depending on the culture's fancies) ...
And more about a man being born feeling like he should be getting pregnant and growing breasts. Feeling like you're in the wrong body. This isn't a cosmetic cultural thing. It's a biological thing. This is what it means to be trans-gendered.
A guy who likes pink and otherwise feels comfortable in his own skin is just a guy who likes pink. If he likes dresses and make up and wants to make out with boys ... but still feels like he's biologically a man ... then by the definitions you provided he isn't trans-gendered. He's a gay man exhibiting gender non-conformative behavior.
BTW I disagree that people are born loving pink and dresses too :P
I'm don't think NOTHING can be the result of environment ... I just think THIS THING that we're talking about isn't one of them.
Quote from: Revenant on August 11, 2015, 08:42:39 PM
Well, not to compare sexuality or gender-identity to mental illness, but much like any other state of being, there can be both biological and environmental components... You can have genetically identical twins and one will develop a mental illness while the other will not. There are trigger events as well, you may be predisposed to cancer, and never encounter the situation that triggers it, like, not keeping a stash of uranium rods in your closet, or not contracting certain illnesses that cause it. For numerous mental illnesses, the conditions seem to require some kind of stress and abuse, possibly mental and/or physical. For other states of being, I can't really speak because I haven't really looked into the causes. As far as sexuality and gender-identity are concerned, I don't see them as problems so I have little reason to investigate the causes.
I think that the science backs you on this point when we're talking about sexual orientation. Going by research as it stands most people seem to be born on a spectrum and environment seems to further narrow said spectrum for them as they grow up. And women seem to exhibit more sexual plasticity than men post-development.
But most of the research we have today on gender identity actually suggests genetic and hormonal influences are the overwhelming primary drivers.
Guess it depends on who you talk to. My best friend, who is a transmale, always talks in terms of male parts of culture and male things. Not a male body specifically, and in fact, has never used a binder or anything similar, unlike another transmale friend of mine, who has dysphoria over having breasts. Of course, it doesn't just vary between the six trans people I know, but almost universally. This is a pretty good article from a trans woman on such: everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/not-born-in-the-wrong-body/ - but yes, please forgive me for using gender and gender role interchangeably once.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 11, 2015, 09:10:24 PM
Guess it depends on who you talk to. My best friend, who is a transmale, always talks in terms of male parts of culture and male things. Not a male body specifically, and in fact, has never used a binder or anything similar, unlike another transmale friend of mine, who has dysphoria over having breasts. Of course, it doesn't just vary between the six trans people I know, but almost universally. This is a pretty good article from a trans woman on such: everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/not-born-in-the-wrong-body/ - but yes, please forgive me for using gender and gender role interchangeably once.
The article ... while a very moving story about that person's struggle to accept themselves, does begin with:
QuoteWhen the doctor asked me why I wanted to begin the hormone therapy that would lower my production of testosterone and increase the level of estrogen in my body...
Which would seem to undercut the point.
Maybe I'm missing something in what you were trying to convey but to me this article said: After years of hating my body, and always feeling like no matter how much I try to modify it, it will never feel perfect hence ... I have decided to accept it.
Rather than: I have never felt uncomfortable in my own skin.
Whatever, musashi. It's all alien to me. I don't identify with a personal gender at all.
Say what you want, make it about what you want, keep thinking the way you think. Just don't act like I'm twisting anything or throwing anyone anywhere. Because until the comment about twisting things to fit with feminism, I was pretty much done with the thread. And I still am.
I should clarify I'm not saying I think every transsexual person must have sexual dysphoria.
I am saying that it is more common the further apart your body type and gender identity are statistically, but I don't want to give you the impression that I think it's an absolute prerequisite.
I'm sure there are transsexual people out there (especially in societies that have a space for them to exist) who feel comfortable in their own skin.
My point about biology is simply this:
When humans are born the evidence appears to show that they already have a predisposition for whether they identify as male or female. This does not always line up with how they physically developed.
From there ... what happens is very likely the result of culture.
If the culture has a place for males who identify as females and the other way around, and it's accepting of them, I personally suspect they will grow up feeling fine because there's a spot for them to exist in without constantly feeling like an outcast.
If the culture doesn't have a spot for that ... we get what we have now.
Quote from: bardlyone on August 11, 2015, 09:32:16 PM
Whatever, musashi. It's all alien to me. I don't identify with a personal gender at all.
Say what you want, make it about what you want, keep thinking the way you think. Just don't act like I'm twisting anything or throwing anyone anywhere. Because until the comment about twisting things to fit with feminism, I was pretty much done with the thread. And I still am.
I don't think you're personally doing anything.
I think that certain strains of feminism, in their effort to get more women into roles they don't seem to want to voluntarily go into despite having largely eliminated the barriers that were in their way, approach what they perceive as a problem from the angle of: Genders roles must receive no influence from biology. It must be an entirely socialized construct. So we change the construct, and then we'll have 50/50 parity of the sexes in every available role.
It just had the unforeseen effect of leaving trans-gendered people out in the cold by suggesting that their claim of having felt the way they feel since birth must be false ... since society should have been able to indoctrinate them into whatever role society normally sets up for their biological sex.
Just pointing out, boobplate definitely exists in game, in the sense of ornamental breast-forming armor. I saw it on a templar I interacted with fairly frequently. I actually think its a nice touch. Ornate, while giving a clear impression this person probably shouldn't be in combat. Boobplate actually makes sense as parade armor.
Yeah.
Functional armor on the other hand has always been pretty gender neutral by necessity in so far as to say, plate mail for example has a convex empty space in the breast plate of it's armor not because it cares about boobs or lack thereof, but because it wants to present a slanted angle to an incoming spear/lance/arrow so that the thrust/pierce is encouraged to slide off the armor instead of punch through it and skewer the wearer underneath.