Armageddon General Discussion Board

Given that Tuluk is closing and the non-virtual world is losing (not virtually... but practically) a major source of conflict, in an effort to be constructive, I think it's a good idea to start talking about the potential of opening Gith as a Karma + App in only option.

With freed up player base of the Tuluki's, most will ultimately go to Nak. D-elf tribes will get more numbers and we'll see more rogue gickers and tribals. This is good. But it also doesn't fill a player-manned / staffed source of conflict/friction that the game previously had with two active warring city states.

As Gith are everyone's most well known source of Mantis Head, I propose they be (seriously) considered to be opened, thus the poll. The last time we had Gith was the special thing that happened over a year ago, and everyone involved agreed it was collectively awesome.

I swear if Gith open I'll forgive Staff for closing Tuluk too... (worth their reopening alone)

In all seriousness I think this is a logical and resource-lax solution to a real problem (IMO) the game now faces.

I think if Tuluk closes staff could focus on making Gith a workable thing.
UHHHHHHHHHHHH
Sure?
Could even have it that 'one fancy douchy gith clan attacked Tuluk in mass and made people want to leave'.
And it even makes the conflict of "Look it's the dirt gith savage that attacked Tuluk

I'd see how things go first, then decide from there.

Still sounds fun though.

No

Gith being a PC tool is not the solution to the problem.

I tend to loosely follow Is Friday's logic about more people playing peons and fewer fancy types about. If I'm not on the right track IF, let me know.

I feel that too many people in Arm want to be on the pointy end so there end up being a huge number of people trying to initiate major plots while there are no "meat and potatos" people to actually get the plots done. While I can't say much about it now there is a glaring example of this sort of thing going on in the game world right now.

I'm moderately confident that staff are doing the best they can to minimize the damage that will be done later on.

Wait and see.

The closure announcement is less than 8 hours old.  I'd give it some time before declaring that there is a) absolutely, definitely going to be a void of conflict and b) a void of conflict that can only be filled by PC-apped gith.

I mean, hasn't the Gith discussion been going on even a bit before Tuluk was announced to close?
Though the closing was probably what signified it. Good to start discussing sooner I would think?

I think a test role-out in a few months would be cool.  Make it a three or four karma race and limit it to the same number of PCs that delves are tried.
I mean while we are testing and trying new things, why not test adding something instead of take, take, take?  Gith were taken out before my time or else right after I started playing, but I've heard a bunch of stories from older players at APMs and snippets here and there over the years of some of the cultural aspects of gith play (they aren't just raiders and killers) and it always seemed like some really cool, in-dept roleplay.

In my time here, we've lost RSE, more than a few outdoor quit rooms, red fangs, dune stalkers, BlackWing(I THINK this was still an option after I started) jul tavan, benjari, Al Seik (more or less), rinthy tibes (and gained one only to loose it again), halflings, awesome future races of 2.Arm, parts of Tuluk, Tuluki nobles houses, some shall-not-be-named zones, sorcerers, and now Tuluk.  I wouldn't mind seeing some new options for play pop up every now and then.  It gets to the point after nearly a decade where you sometimes feel you've done it all, it would be nice to try something new, even if its just going to last long enough to tease me.

Edit: Oops, I forgot Undertuluk and a couple areas in the Sewers!

So uh...what were races in Arm V2 supposed to be?

Yes, but it has nothing to do with Tuluk closing, in my eyes.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 10:17:55 PM
So uh...what were races in Arm V2 supposed to be?

Cat people and dudes with hard shells that humans could ride.

Quote from: Jihelu on April 13, 2015, 10:17:55 PM
So uh...what were races in Arm V2 supposed to be?

Ghatti (the lucky kind) - Feline Humanoids
Dursa - Some Tribal Reptilians that I was really excited about
Cyndi - PLayable insect mount race.
Some unplayable arachnids?
Some cave-dwelling human/elf hybrids  (EWWW BREEDS)?

They took all the discussion and announcement threads away, so that was just off the my poor memory?

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 13, 2015, 10:18:55 PM
Yes, but it has nothing to do with Tuluk closing, in my eyes.

Truedat.

I always wanted to play a PC gith. I wouldn't mind seeing them put at 4 - 5 karma and allowed. I think a few players all playing together at that karma level could make some great things happen with gith roleplay.

Opening up isoclans is probably getting away from what staff are trying to do (have the main city be Allanak), but there will always be tribals and other outlying roles available, besides Tuluk. However gith always seemed generic and kind of boring to me though I would enjoy the chance to play a raider with a relatively safe place to hang my hat at night (when I log out.)

Quote from: Molten Heart on April 13, 2015, 10:34:40 PM
However gith always seemed generic and kind of boring to me

Because they were all generic NPCs. ;)

I'd rather see whether and to what extent closing Tuluk consolidates the playerbase in other locations before having them open up a bunch of things that are currently closed.

Quote from: Desertman on April 13, 2015, 10:27:53 PM
I always wanted to play a PC gith. I wouldn't mind seeing them put at 4 - 5 karma and allowed. I think a few players all playing together at that karma level could make some great things happen with gith roleplay.

This.

Open, violent PvP conflict is over-rated.

PvP warfare isn't epic or exciting or strategic.  It's a spamfest where you die in a split second due to massive ">assist leader", or worse, get ganked by overpowered NPCs and/or units.  I imagine it's also a huge headache for staff too.

The best "war" I got to play in was the Gith War vs. Allanak in.... 2008?  Staff set the agenda and set the pace.  Battles could be drawn out, with waves of enemies rather than one big glob.  It had a plot spanning a RL week, with some frantic opening sequences then a gradual build-up to an epic showdown with the main force/leader.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 14, 2015, 10:57:17 AM
Open, violent PvP conflict is over-rated.

I've never been raided and not enjoyed it.
I've seldom been PKd and not enjoyed it.
(I hope those I've raided and PKd can say the same).

I totally agree on not enjoying spamfest RPT mass combat.

I put yes, but what I really meant was that a gith-like clan should open up. If I had my way though, it'd be one that was a little less murderous.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 14, 2015, 10:57:17 AM
Open, violent PvP conflict is over-rated.

PvP warfare isn't epic or exciting or strategic.  It's a spamfest where you die in a split second due to massive ">assist leader", or worse, get ganked by overpowered NPCs and/or units.  I imagine it's also a huge headache for staff too.

The best "war" I got to play in was the Gith War vs. Allanak in.... 2008?  Staff set the agenda and set the pace.  Battles could be drawn out, with waves of enemies rather than one big glob.  It had a plot spanning a RL week, with some frantic opening sequences then a gradual build-up to an epic showdown with the main force/leader.

The wave after eave of bad guys kind of combat is exciting for the player side, and if staff don't mind animating for it, I'd love to see this done more often.

I'm also okay leavin pvp conflict to the political arena where players have a hance to put into play not only the pcs coded abiliies but also political savvy and connections.

I personally don't care for PvP in Armageddon.  Not because I don't like the idea of killing other players, or getting in awesome fights, but because the code for such things is far too limiting in my opinion.  The outcome often consists of how well a player manipulates the esoteric nuances of the combat or magick system, not the skill of the characters involved.  That says nothing about group PvP...then it's just a spamfest where you die nearly instantly, or kill nearly instantly.

Gith would be cool, if the staff want to build up some Gith culture, and have Gith things to do besides straight up PvP slugfests in the desert...but since they just signaled they want to consolidate their efforts on South, GMH and the remaining tribes I don't see why they'd want to do this.

I'd love to see gith come back at the same karma level they were before, but I don't think staff will consider fragmenting the playerbase further with the way things are right now.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 14, 2015, 10:57:17 AM
PvP warfare isn't epic or exciting or strategic.  It's a spamfest where you die in a split second due to massive ">assist leader", or worse, get ganked by overpowered NPCs and/or units.  I imagine it's also a huge headache for staff too.

The best "war" I got to play in was the Gith War vs. Allanak in.... 2008?  Staff set the agenda and set the pace.  Battles could be drawn out, with waves of enemies rather than one big glob.  It had a plot spanning a RL week, with some frantic opening sequences then a gradual build-up to an epic showdown with the main force/leader.

I agree with Moe. My favorite past wars/battles were: Copper War, Gith War, Mantis War, in that order.

Playable pc gith? Yes, if they're karma restricted.

Meh.  More interested in 'rinthi clans, or hostile desert elves, than this.

Absolutely no!
The real reason closing Tuluk is that it takes too much effort on the staff-side. So, what good is getting gith an allowed race to the playerbase to that problem?

If anyone wants to play a gith, go spec-app it with a strong concept.
If anyone wants to raid people as mundanes, go make a raider group IG.
If anyone wants to raid people as rogue gickers or sorcerors, go make those chars.

There are lots of possibilities. You can just pick anyone. But no giths. I don't think we need gith PCs anytime soon. Let the staff cherish the world around curreny playable areas with current playable races.

I chose to wait.  Not because I disagree with opening gith, but because it's being proposed as a solution to what I'm not sure will be a problem.

Tuluk not being open to players is not as discouraging, to me.  As I've said, I think it will 'morph' the northlands into a far more wild atmosphere than what people are used to.

During the rebellion, I remember a lot more raiding in the north, a lot more conflict by players outside of the city, and a lot more 'wilderness' play.  Tuluk closing is one thing, but I don't think it served as the main catalyst for conflict.  Players do.  I want to see if raiding and such becomes prevalent in the new north, before this comes as a solution to that.

Now if we just wanted to open them up because more options are good, I'm all in favor.

I have wanted to see gith re-opened for years. I don't prescribe to the "close things to consolidate the playerbase" idea. If players want to be around others, they will flock together. That said - I am also glad Tuluk closed but for other reasons.

I digress...back to gith!

Gith have a pretty awesome culture and I would be among the first to apply for one if they were opened.

No, no, no...you've got it all wrong.

Instead of Gith, we need Sith.

Most of the arguments against the gith here seem to be getting fleshed out PCs confused with aggro mobs that roam the deserts.

Tor PCs aren't fighting wars every time they log in.
Fale PCs aren't throwing parties every time they log in.
Tuluki PCs aren't.... too easy, nevermind.
Gith wouldn't be going out to raid PCs everytime they log in.

Gith roleplay is another "niche" role that could be offered back to the players.
A strange, unique culture that is a far stretch from everyday life.

One of the reasons I generally avoid playing city-bound characters is that more often or not, it feels to me too much like "normal" life as far as PvP conflict and interactions, and as many times as I've tried (I still do from time to time) I just can't get into the elven mindset and enjoy the roleplay.  I understand it, love it, and enjoy interacting with well played elves, but it's just not my thing.
I play this game primarily an escape and creative release.  We're eliminating a city of probably around 60 pcs? (taking a third of the weekly login numbers as a guess).
I don't see what it would hurt or offer up 5-7 roles (whatver tribal cap is) for a trial period and see how it goes.

Some people would like to go out for these roles, some people would not?
Aside form the I don't want candy, so no one should get candy, what would be the downside of giving it a go?

It would be about as much work as making mantis playable.

Both are races that PCs could and did play before (the last time they were played in any numbers was about 2000/2001...15-16 years ago).  Both (likely) did have some documentation at the time.  Both were active for PC roles at a very different time for the game.  Both are isolated races (not just isolated roles) in that they do not socialize with anything; their interactions with nonmembers of their races are typically fatal for one party or the other and that is not something that is going to change.  Both do not have player documentation anymore, as far as I can tell.  Both have very few staff-side documentation pieces.  I'd have to check, but I'm also reasonably certain neither have any kind of automated setup, PC camp locations, or anything like that...certainly nothing easy to find right now.

We'd rather make other things playable, or make other roles more accessible to players and facilitate more nuanced conflict. The only utility I see for gith PCs or mantis PCs would be in the midst of a series of major RPTs against them, in which it would be beneficial to have some thinking beings behind the keyboard, a la gladiator roles.  (Please do not take this as a guarantee that this will occur.  I'm just offering an example.)

QuoteBoth are isolated races (not just isolated roles) in that they do not socialize with anything;

True for mantis, not for gith.  Gith trade.

Quote from: Nyr on April 15, 2015, 04:30:39 PM
It would be about as much work as making mantis playable.

Both are races that PCs could and did play before (the last time they were played in any numbers was about 2000/2001...15-16 years ago).  Both (likely) did have some documentation at the time.  Both were active for PC roles at a very different time for the game.  Both are isolated races (not just isolated roles) in that they do not socialize with anything; their interactions with nonmembers of their races are typically fatal for one party or the other and that is not something that is going to change.  Both do not have player documentation anymore, as far as I can tell.  Both have very few staff-side documentation pieces.  I'd have to check, but I'm also reasonably certain neither have any kind of automated setup, PC camp locations, or anything like that...certainly nothing easy to find right now.

We'd rather make other things playable, or make other roles more accessible to players and facilitate more nuanced conflict. The only utility I see for gith PCs or mantis PCs would be in the midst of a series of major RPTs against them, in which it would be beneficial to have some thinking beings behind the keyboard, a la gladiator roles.  (Please do not take this as a guarantee that this will occur.  I'm just offering an example.)

As of a couple years ago, one of the gith areas in the tablelands still had a IC rumor board that, I believe, had a good bit of documentation on it, for what it's worth.

(please don't destroy this, it's a treasure to stumble across!!!!)

Quote from: FantasyWriter on April 15, 2015, 03:19:48 PM
Some people would like to go out for these roles, some people would not?
Aside form the I don't want candy, so no one should get candy, what would be the downside of giving it a go?

I am one of those people who wants to play a gith. I have a couple concepts for a gith PC as well. If the gith would made playable, I would definitely apply for it.
As Nyr said, it will take a lot of effort. Gith are not like d-elves. If there would be any trial period, some staff might have to dedicate a lot of time to monitor how the trial goes.
That's why I am against it. IMO, we don't have such a luxury. Let the staff turn their work more awesome. I'm sure we'll all enjoy it.

And yes. PvP is a part of this game. Playing a gith PC would let you give more chance to PvP.
Think of it this way. D-elves most of the time just watch you closely when you pass through their territory. Gith don't. There was a d-elf tribe who didn't as well. What happened to that tribe? Is it closed to players. No, it isn't. They were annihilated.

oh ma highlurd. I knew you people were all elves at heart, but gith? GITH? you make me sick

#keepthepcbloodlinepure

Mantis and Gith would be sick as hell to play.

Going out into the desert or mantislands to fight a PC would be awesome. Prisoner RP would be awesome.

Even more awesome would come the character concepts. I'd like to see a horde of gith swarm Red Storm. Or a horde of mantis attack Tuluk.

Mantis don't take prisoners, they eat people

Gith wouldn't be able to RP out most of their prisoner RP due to consent changes. You can smear poop on people all you want, though.

I don't think PC gith would be a good idea unless an entirely new gith culture was created for the purpose, something like the Red Fangs.  Assholes, but not completely and totally cut off culturally from the entire world.

Red fangs were actually modeled after gith culture.

Just a FYI.

Quote from: Erythil on April 19, 2015, 06:58:10 PM
I don't think PC gith would be a good idea unless an entirely new gith culture was created for the purpose, something like the Red Fangs.  Assholes, but not completely and totally cut off culturally from the entire world.

As noted before by me, Gith were not cut off culturally.  Gith traded where their trade was accepted.  It's been changes over time after they were no longer a playable race that made them seem far less connected.

I don't -have- the gith documentation, but I've -read- gith documentation.  They are, essentially, a really really big and strong blackmoon raiders, as far as their relationship with the world.

Okay, I stand corrected, then.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 19, 2015, 08:50:57 PM

Quote from: Erythil on April 19, 2015, 06:58:10 PM
I don't think PC gith would be a good idea unless an entirely new gith culture was created for the purpose, something like the Red Fangs.  Assholes, but not completely and totally cut off culturally from the entire world.

As noted before by me, Gith were not cut off culturally.  Gith traded where their trade was accepted.  It's been changes over time after they were no longer a playable race that made them seem far less connected.

I don't -have- the gith documentation, but I've -read- gith documentation.  They are, essentially, a really really big and strong blackmoon raiders, as far as their relationship with the world.

As an aside, this was actually the same for mantis as well - PC mantis also used to interact with other races in a limited fashion during their "golden age" period (ie. not the initial MUD where everyone was anywhere doing anything with steel up their yingyang).

I'm in the camp that doesn't think opening up gith right now would be a great idea - pulling resources away from the rest of the playerbase to support a very limited number of players (and it would necessarily be low-capped for a number of reasons) doesn't seem to justify the potential gains in having the niche option available.  I do like the idea of a gladiator/sekritapp type temporary role when called for though, that sounds like it'd be a nice compromise.

I voted no because, while I love pvp conflict, I think that the "civilization vs gith" conflict is less complex and dramatic than the "civilized folks vs civilized folks" type of conflict.

I would prefer more coded tribes opening up, and moving the "tribal location" starting option or nomad subguild moved to spec app only.

Course, if you are gith, you are the civilized ones.

Quote from: roughneck on April 20, 2015, 09:22:38 AM
and moving the "tribal location" starting option or nomad subguild moved to spec app only.

... why?

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 20, 2015, 03:33:26 PM

Quote from: roughneck on April 20, 2015, 09:22:38 AM
and moving the "tribal location" starting option or nomad subguild moved to spec app only.

... why?

Because it would push people into coded tribes, which I think add a lot to the game. I think there is potential for a lot of conflict and drama with active coded tribes that never really happens because it's hard to fill them with PC's. Also, I think a lot of non-coded tribe, tribal PC concepts have gone stale due to the seemingly high volume of them. If all tribal PC's were funneled into coded tribes, we may even get another one opening up, like the Jul Tavan, Anyali, or something new.

If people would stop treating the tribal accent like a multipass, I think we'd see less of the tribal influx.

Though, frankly, the environment and documentation of the coded tribes is more or less set up for mudsex-lovin', babby-havin' folk, and not everyone enjoys that kind of RP.

Quote from: Delirium on April 20, 2015, 04:43:38 PM
Though, frankly, the environment and documentation of the coded tribes is more or less set up for mudsex-lovin', babby-havin' folk, and not everyone enjoys that kind of RP.

All that baby-making culture is balanced (or should be) by the fact that your human tribal is part of a small community surrounded by murderous cut-throat elves and dangerous wildlife while trading with lying merchant houses and traiterous city states.

The most fun I've had in this game was playing an Arabetti who racked up around 25k in collected bounties and taught some pretty violent lessons to those who threatened him or his family. The brutal reality of Zalanthas will add a very gritty dimension to all that mudsex-lovin' and babby-havin', if you let it.

Bit of a derail, but I do think it's a better option than opening gith, as much as I would actually love to play a gith PC.

Well, to bring it back a little to the general idea of the thread, I think that anyone who voted they'd like to play a gith eventually should try playing a Seik first (if they haven't done so, of course), just to see what it's like to have very specific rituals and rules in a (we could argue on this) hostile land and long bouts of isolationism/quiet RP opportunities (especially now that Tuluk is closed - just kidding heheh)

Split some posts. Did a dance.

Get moderated tonight.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49248.0.html

Wrong thread now.

Quote from: Patuk on April 21, 2015, 06:43:09 PM
I think most anythings I've seen, be they tribes ir citystates, err towards too little documentation rather than toward too much of it. Most documentation ends up being something along the lines of 'this is common, but do whatever', anyway. An example is fighting styles: the docs state that Allanaki people may prefer swords, and elves do well with spears, but someone from the south toting a club or an elf with an axe isn't some kind of big deal. As long as it's made clear that deviating from shit like fashion or storytelling docs isn't some kind of grave offence, I think most clans could use some added pages.

We have a tribal thread now.

I thought one of the many reasons the RF's were hated was due to they would openly trade with the Gith, and as X-D said, I thought they were molded after them as well. My first RF I was told they were like the Reavers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFUrIlyLRPI&list=PLP9AAt0guvzlkJoIZhux1T69a9d-XSy65&index=13) in Firefly/Serenity.

Well, One thing gith have over RF.

It is a safe bet that most gith are actually sane.

Quote from: X-D on April 22, 2015, 02:37:49 AM
Well, One thing gith have over RF.

It is a safe bet that most gith are actually sane.

They're also alive.

Just want to say I really enjoyed the post above.

My point earlier about mantis and gith as antagonists was more that the way the gith were designed makes them antagonists.  There is no surviving documentation that I can find showing that they traded with anything more than the occasional virtual group--it refers to "limited trading".  In more recent documentation, they traded with the Red Fangs tribe; that was the extent of their positive relations.  If 99% of your activity is antagonistic to the other races but you make a small exception for a single tribe (that itself is way off the deep end), you are not defined by that exception.  (That exception also ceases to exist now.)

The "gith documentation" that existed on an IC board isn't documentation so much as an IC rumor board for gith.  There isn't anything in the way of documentation there, it is just PC recounting of events or announcements, plus the occasional staff OOC post.  Regardless of what PC gith may have done in the past or what documentation may have said about them, the truth now is that gith are antagonists and have been for years.

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140826005240/elderscrolls/images/a/a6/FalmerSkulker.png)


Gith are totally like Falmer from Skyrim.


But on the actual topic...A storyteller animated some gith not long ago, and I found the encounter very interesting.

I'm going to say: Yes, with low karma or a special app.

Quotethe truth now is that gith are antagonists and have been for years.

I said as much.  My objection wasn't for any purpose other than to show there was more to than marauding and raping and pillaging.  They are an isolated clan, but not any more than particular groups of desert elves.  They have their own culture and back story.  And they are willing to trade for things they need in places such as the former Red Storm and the former <blank> nearby, because they had goods, and were willing to trade with Gith.

In their current state, Gith wouldn't fit.  But their current state is also completely based around being devoid of PC's, which could be peeled away from.  However, to reiterate...I do -not- think they should be opened for the reason the Original Poster stated, because I don't think the gith would have the desired effect.  But I am also not averse to the idea of PC gith.  That was my original statement.

I just nitpick at things, man, let me do it!

Instead of opening up a previously established NPC culture, I'd rather see (more) staff support for PC-led groups, whether antagonistic or no.

Especially those who aren't directly city-based. City roleplay isn't for everyone, supporting the indies out there would be nice too.

Quote from: Delirium on April 22, 2015, 04:01:51 PM
Instead of opening up a previously established NPC culture, I'd rather see (more) staff support for PC-led groups, whether antagonistic or no.

Especially those who aren't directly city-based. City roleplay isn't for everyone, supporting the indies out there would be nice too.

Woo! Ghaati should find there way into the Known and prowl the desert. C'mon you've all that documentation from Arm Reborn for the cat people!! :)

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/187/d/7/khajiit_theif_by_tigrestoku-d5698gt.png)

Quote from: Bushranger on April 22, 2015, 04:11:43 PM

Quote from: Delirium on April 22, 2015, 04:01:51 PM
Instead of opening up a previously established NPC culture, I'd rather see (more) staff support for PC-led groups, whether antagonistic or no.

Especially those who aren't directly city-based. City roleplay isn't for everyone, supporting the indies out there would be nice too.

Woo! Ghaati should find there way into the Known and prowl the desert. C'mon you've all that documentation from Arm Reborn for the cat people!! :)

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/187/d/7/khajiit_theif_by_tigrestoku-d5698gt.png)

Deez nuts?
HA! Ghaati, ha!

I'm sorry... Please forgive.

This seems like a decent spot for me to throw out my desire for halflings to be re-introduced into the game but for them to become more socialized with society so they can be played in cities by people.

Halflings are such cute little things and we have so many people who like to play cute little things. Most of them go with youths since dwarves don't count.

I don't even want to play one really. I just want other people to be able to play little halflings in my groups because entertainment.

Quote from: Desertman on April 22, 2015, 05:28:55 PM
This seems like a decent spot for me to throw out my desire for halflings to be re-introduced into the game but for them to become more socialized with society so they can be played in cities by people.

Halflings are such cute little things and we have so many people who like to play cute little things. Most of them go with youths since dwarves don't count.

I don't even want to play one really. I just want other people to be able to play little halflings in my groups because entertainment.

Nyr, you took my Tea-Folk, I demand Wee-Folk!!!

Rename Halfling as Ghaati. All the code is there. Midget cat people are so cute!!

Quote from: Bushranger on April 22, 2015, 05:39:08 PM

Quote from: Desertman on April 22, 2015, 05:28:55 PM
This seems like a decent spot for me to throw out my desire for halflings to be re-introduced into the game but for them to become more socialized with society so they can be played in cities by people.

Halflings are such cute little things and we have so many people who like to play cute little things. Most of them go with youths since dwarves don't count.

I don't even want to play one really. I just want other people to be able to play little halflings in my groups because entertainment.

Nyr, you took my Tea-Folk, I demand Wee-Folk!!!

Rename Halfling as Ghaati. All the code is there. Midget cat people are so cute!!

I....I.....agree.... :o

This is drifting into a realm of fantasy I dare not dream see.

Quote from: Bushranger on April 22, 2015, 05:39:08 PM
Rename Halfling as Ghaati. All the code is there. Midget cat people are so cute!!

To quote Guy Fleegman, "Have you guys even SEEN the show?!"

Quote from: Talia on April 22, 2015, 05:44:00 PM

Quote from: Bushranger on April 22, 2015, 05:39:08 PM
Rename Halfling as Ghaati. All the code is there. Midget cat people are so cute!!

To quote Guy Fleegman, "Have you guys even SEEN the show?!"

Giving a fanged cheshire smile the lithe, perky-eared ghatti youth purrs and snuggles up in Talia's lap, curling into a ball before drifting off to sleep.

From time to time the lithe, perky-eared ghatti youth's ears flick and she squirms about in Talia's lap, obviously caught up in a dream.


Tell me you don't want that as your sidekick. You damn right you do.

Quote from: Nyr on April 22, 2015, 09:14:34 AM

Quote from: X-D on April 22, 2015, 02:37:49 AM
Well, One thing gith have over RF.

It is a safe bet that most gith are actually sane.

They're also alive.

Tasteless, man, tasteless.

Heh, I thought it was pretty darn funny.

Quote from: Desertman on April 22, 2015, 05:48:10 PM

Quote from: Talia on April 22, 2015, 05:44:00 PM

Quote from: Bushranger on April 22, 2015, 05:39:08 PM
Rename Halfling as Ghaati. All the code is there. Midget cat people are so cute!!

To quote Guy Fleegman, "Have you guys even SEEN the show?!"

Giving a fanged cheshire smile the lithe, perky-eared ghatti youth purrs and snuggles up in Talia's lap, curling into a ball before drifting off to sleep.

From time to time the lithe, perky-eared ghatti youth's ears flick and she squirms about in Talia's lap, obviously caught up in a dream.


Tell me you don't want that as your sidekick. You damn right you do.

Ghaati were (are?) more like occasionally bipedal tigers with humanoid features instead of like, humanoid cats. Nothing close to cat people afaik.

You think that would stop Desertman?

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 23, 2015, 04:08:15 AM

Quote from: Desertman on April 22, 2015, 05:48:10 PM

Quote from: Talia on April 22, 2015, 05:44:00 PM

Quote from: Bushranger on April 22, 2015, 05:39:08 PM
Rename Halfling as Ghaati. All the code is there. Midget cat people are so cute!!

To quote Guy Fleegman, "Have you guys even SEEN the show?!"

Giving a fanged cheshire smile the lithe, perky-eared ghatti youth purrs and snuggles up in Talia's lap, curling into a ball before drifting off to sleep.

From time to time the lithe, perky-eared ghatti youth's ears flick and she squirms about in Talia's lap, obviously caught up in a dream.


Tell me you don't want that as your sidekick. You damn right you do.

Ghaati were (are?) more like occasionally bipedal tigers with humanoid features instead of like, humanoid cats. Nothing close to cat people afaik.

(http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/6279/1119411-kilrathi.jpg)

Good luck trying to convince any of us that cat people are not cat people!

Quote from: MeTekillot on April 23, 2015, 04:08:15 AM

Quote from: Desertman on April 22, 2015, 05:48:10 PM

Quote from: Talia on April 22, 2015, 05:44:00 PM

Quote from: Bushranger on April 22, 2015, 05:39:08 PM
Rename Halfling as Ghaati. All the code is there. Midget cat people are so cute!!

To quote Guy Fleegman, "Have you guys even SEEN the show?!"

Giving a fanged cheshire smile the lithe, perky-eared ghatti youth purrs and snuggles up in Talia's lap, curling into a ball before drifting off to sleep.

From time to time the lithe, perky-eared ghatti youth's ears flick and she squirms about in Talia's lap, obviously caught up in a dream.


Tell me you don't want that as your sidekick. You damn right you do.

Ghaati were (are?) more like occasionally bipedal tigers with humanoid features instead of like, humanoid cats. Nothing close to cat people afaik.

Sir, while I agree with you, what is being discussed is the possibility of a half halfing half ghatti hybrid cute mini-kitten-person sidekick race.

I think it would take less than two weeks before this was created:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Pussboots.jpg)

Srsly though, I need halflings back and more socialized for better roleplay experiences.

(https://roll4d6.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/halfling.png)

A tribe of Halflings, fleeing from some trouble outside the Known, manage to find Red Storm village on their silt skimmers. More civilized than their northern cousins they are allowed to settle into the village, some of them joining the Sand Lord's ranks of soldiers others integrating into the windmill crews or the markets. Those who choose to play a new Halfling have decided to adventure in this new land!

BAM! Would totally play one of these!

Quote from: Bushranger on April 23, 2015, 04:13:41 PM
A tribe of Halflings, fleeing from some trouble outside the Known, manage to find Red Storm village on their silt skimmers. More civilized than their northern cousins they are allowed to settle into the village, some of them joining the Sand Lord's ranks of soldiers others integrating into the windmill crews or the markets. Those who choose to play a new Halfling have decided to adventure in this new land!

BAM! Would totally play one of these!

Allofmywant.jpg

Why play a gith/mantis/halfling if you're just going to make them more boring/civilized. I'm playing one of these guys so I can shit on your stupid tea-parties and eat your dumb twitching corpse - not so I can trade gems for bone swords.

I will drop boulders on your wooden boxes and burn everyone inside.

I will swarm over your palisades and eat you and your friends while exalting in the will of the hive.

I will treat you like the cattle you are and hunt you for entertainment if my tribe needs your flesh.

Go back home, two-leg, smooth-skin, beast-that-speaks. Go home and leave the world for those who know how to live in it.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 23, 2015, 04:41:21 PM
Why play a gith/mantis/halfling if you're just going to make them more boring/civilized. I'm playing one of these guys so I can shit on your stupid tea-parties and eat your dumb twitching corpse - not so I can trade gems for bone swords.

I will drop boulders on your wooden boxes and burn everyone inside.

I will swarm over your palisades and eat you and your friends while exalting in the will of the hive.

I will treat you like the cattle you are and hunt you for entertainment if my tribe needs your flesh.

Go back home, two-leg, smooth-skin, beast-that-speaks. Go home and leave the world for those who know how to live in it.

Spoken like a true Tuluki.

play more desert elves

This is why we can't have nice things/cute tiny people in our groups.

I was corpse-camped by gnomes in Everquest for three hours. I was very disappointed to learn that halflings were no longer a thing in game since that was one less thing to hate.

The thing about the gith is that they were never and would never be a true isoclan.

Mantis and halflings were both tucked into obscure corners of the known world that you would need to have a death wish to go poking into. They were easily avoided, and had no real friction or conflict with anyone else.

Gith are centrally located in the red desert, and would have an immense impact on the world around them. It would create a lot of great RP and conflict.

So some people might die to gith PCs...Who cares? Would you rather die in a fight against gith PCs, or get one-shotted in some RPT by a massively strong NPC?

The main danger would be for the gith to not get wiped out by the Sun Runners, since they're apparently an unstoppable colossus of awesomeness that none dare stand against.

So anyone that equates gith with mantis and halflings, is really out of their depth. Gith are nothing like the gith or halflings, and are in many many ways as approachable and RPable as any delf tribe, and have a very real geopolitical contribution to make that would affect 95% of the playerbase.

I think it'd be great. But then I really don't subscribe to the philosophy of sitting around mudsexing until you die to an RPT NPC. I'd rather take my chances against other players who had a real reason to fight or defend themselves, with actual stakes. Fighting for survival and for the territorial right of your species.

I've never seen PC gith but they seem like they'd just be code spam and pvp based which doesn't sound totally rad to me.

Quote from: In Dreams on May 04, 2015, 11:09:59 PM
I've never seen PC gith but they seem like they'd just be code spam and pvp based which doesn't sound totally rad to me.

No more than delves are, or any gicker, hunter or mercenary is.

What seems to bother you most is them being pvp based. But again, I'd rather die to a PC than to an overpowered NPC.

The interaction between PC gith and non-gith PCs is strictly limited to murder, stabbing, murder, and the eating of flesh.

It's not PK to facilitate a plot, or interaction, or anything else except the killing of player characters, be they gith, or the victims of gith.

Since Gith have contests of merit can they literally have 'the biggest dick' contests.
Either metaphorically or physically.

That's more of a comparison, not a contest. You can't better yourself in that area (unless there are cantrips to extend penis size? future stone mage concept).

They may instead have a contest on who is better at using their dick, however.

I voted yes to karma restricted because I'd LOVE to see some real conflict in the Tablelands. Elves don't fuck with each other, humans are one tribe so they don't fuck with each other and everyone's always besties with Kurac because Kurac is awesome and got them they sweet drugs, word.

Like, gith don't give a fuck about preserving themselves at the level the elves and humans do. They're so much more chaotic and evil, which would encourage much more conflict in the forms of spear heads, not snarky remarks about inferiority and who is liked by the Blackwing more.

Quote from: Rathustra on April 23, 2015, 04:41:21 PM
Why play a gith/mantis/halfling if you're just going to make them more boring/civilized. I'm playing one of these guys so I can shit on your stupid tea-parties and eat your dumb twitching corpse - not so I can trade gems for bone swords.

I will drop boulders on your wooden boxes and burn everyone inside.

I will swarm over your palisades and eat you and your friends while exalting in the will of the hive.

I will treat you like the cattle you are and hunt you for entertainment if my tribe needs your flesh.

Go back home, two-leg, smooth-skin, beast-that-speaks. Go home and leave the world for those who know how to live in it.

Only staff get to play barbarian races. Holding it selfishly for themselves.

Staff are corrupt.

Quote from: HavokBlue on May 04, 2015, 11:16:34 PM
The interaction between PC gith and non-gith PCs is strictly limited to murder, stabbing, murder, and the eating of flesh.

It's not PK to facilitate a plot, or interaction, or anything else except the killing of player characters, be they gith, or the victims of gith.

Merely having a gith clan in the Red Desert would bring a whole new dimension, life and conflict to the world, and make travel between Allanak and Luirs actually somewhat risky, now and then.

I'd rather have PCs providing this tension, with just as much to risk losing, than random NPCs puppeted by staff.

And as Zoan said, the best thing about the gith is their 'not give a fuckery'. Everyone else is besties. And they'd better be, or else Kurac won't sell to them, or the SR will kill them. Gith are outside that daisy chain.

I am 100% in support of PCs who present a threat in the Red Desert, I just don't think Gith are the way to achieve it.

Raid more with hoomanz.

Quote from: Armaddict on May 05, 2015, 12:45:40 AM
Raid more with hoomanz.

A classic GDB response.

It's not really realistic to raid with humans, unless you're just a complete throwaway character. Raiding tribes/clans work, because you have a base of operations, and a group of people to RP with, and plan stuff with. A relatively safe place to store loot, and to train or sleep.

A human raider group that presents any kind of a threat, basically doesn't happen without several PCs with a reasonable amount of days on them, all together deciding to get killed. Because there are so few places for human raiders to coordinate or operate from. None, really. Red Storm comes the closest. But even then, you're easily found and on thin ice.

But you know all this.

I wish there were a human or delf tribe that did raiding.

Another good thing about gith, is that their victims can look at them all they want. It probably won't matter much.

Meh, with all the supernatural PCs floating around, your special snowflake gith wouldn't last a week. You'd be raiding in places that so many powerful characters would be waiting for you.

It would just take one Red Meso to ruin your little tribe's day. He'd stomp in, ignoring the ambient scenery, and hack the four PCs to death who are hakka'ing by the campfire.

I bet my gith would last at least a year.

Snowflake? I think a snowflake gith would get quashed rather quickly.

It's easy to survive as a gith.

Step 1: go to tablelands.

Step 2: change ldesc lopes here.

Step 3: wait for 2 day old delf hunter to try and kill you.

Quote from: X-D on May 05, 2015, 02:39:41 AM
I bet my gith would last at least a year.

Snowflake? I think a snowflake gith would get quashed rather quickly.

By snowflake I mean the minute someone identifies a gith that appears slightly different than others it would turn into a mega permanent hunt hrpt. There's also the fact that any gith pc encampment would be discovered within a week max.

To the first part, I do not believe that would be the case, I rather trust players and staff more then you it seems, but I believe they would treat them as gith, which have always been around.

As to the second part, Players and PCs already know where most if not all the gith emcampments are. Even if there was a new one, There are many ways to make them basically safe...not much an issue there.

Most gickers are so afraid of getting killed, that I doubt they'd risk tangling with even a bunch've newbie gith rangers and warriors. In reality, that uber-gicker rarely if ever appears, beyond the occasional mischievous whiran. In any case, I'd gladly assume the risk, for the chance to play a true raiding tribe/clan again.

I also trust that if staff had the foresight and wisdom to make gith playable, they'd handle any attempts to wipe them out appropriately. There are supposedly hordes of gith.

Those hordes of gith won't do a whole lot when a PC gith gets mon un ruin-your-lifed by Lord Templar Hardnose's gemmer gang. They won't do a whole lot when Generic Half Giant Ranger rolls up on PC gith while PC gith running around the salt flats. They won't do a whole lot when Ex-Bynner Amos puts a perraine arrow in them from three rooms away.

The challenges that a PC gith clan would face are pretty similar to the challenges a PC raider faces now, except the gith clan might have a few safe rooms to store all the climbing spikes and byn abas they loot off dead bodies?...

QuoteThe challenges that a PC gith clan would face are pretty similar to the challenges a PC raider faces now, except the gith clan might have a few safe rooms to store all the climbing spikes and byn abas they loot off dead bodies?...

That's what I was trying to get at, but it pretty much flew in the face of people, I think.  This can be done without a gith clan.  I am not averse to gith reopening, but the assertion that they need to be opened for raiding to commence is a silly one to me.  And there are safe rooms galore out there.

Quote from: Clearsighted on May 05, 2015, 12:39:57 AM
Merely having a gith clan in the Red Desert would bring a whole new dimension, life and conflict to the world, and make travel between Allanak and Luirs actually somewhat risky, now and then.

I'd rather have PCs providing this tension, with just as much to risk losing, than random NPCs puppeted by staff.

Travel between Allanak and Luirs can be made more dangerous by simply loading more of dangerous critters. And believe me there wouldn't be a real need for staff to puppet those NPCs to stop you travel. If you want to see and experience this first hand, I suggest you to go and explore the depths of the Grey Forest.  8)

Quote from: Armaddict on May 05, 2015, 04:09:37 AM

QuoteThe challenges that a PC gith clan would face are pretty similar to the challenges a PC raider faces now, except the gith clan might have a few safe rooms to store all the climbing spikes and byn abas they loot off dead bodies?...

That's what I was trying to get at, but it pretty much flew in the face of people, I think.  This can be done without a gith clan.  I am not averse to gith reopening, but the assertion that they need to be opened for raiding to commence is a silly one to me.  And there are safe rooms galore out there.

I understand exactly what you were saying, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Raiding clans/tribes have done fine in the past, and the reasons why they went under had little if nothing to do with player agency (krathis, half-giant rangers, peraine, whatever).

A real coordinated tribe and clan provides a gravitas and a center of gravity for conflict and politics to come into life around it, that a single dumbass human raider that will be dead in a couple days, doesn't. Or maybe one or two of his friends. It provides a nexus for other people to app into, without being some meta-organized OOC buddy.

Here's a fast fact. The only successful non-clan/non-tribe raiders that I can remember, in like the last ten years, have been gickers. And the best of them were gemmers raiding up in Tuluk. So what I find silly, is the somewhat condescending suggestion to 'be the change', when the reality of a human raider is basically suicide. And for it to even scratch at what I was getting at, it would have to be more than one human raider, but a whole group/clan of them, to where they could affect Kurac, Allanak and the tribes and provide some geopolitical intrigue.

No other tribes/indies can currently step in and do that. Only the gith.

QuoteI understand exactly what you were saying, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Well.  I've been told, and since I clearly have no idea what I'm saying and am referencing things I have no experience in whatsoever, I yield the floor of victorious reasoning to you.

I would give up my current PC for a gith....But I would have to ask staff for a week to make the PC as I would agonize of desc and class and sub for that long:)

lol this thread...

The stuff I want to comment on is about the casual off-handed remarks about other stuff that is just not accurate.

First of all, for someone without the right skillset, it is already sometimes unreasonably ridiculous and dangerous to make a trip from Allanak to Luirs, or anywhere in between for any character under like 5 - 10 days. We don't need more dangerous critters because the amount of cures needed and the incredibly short re-load times of the mobs as is now is crazy.

Second, X-D, I think you are right with the comment, some of us don't trust the PLAYERS. I've told a long story before about trying to side with the 'bad guys' during the whole 'thrall' campaign. After weeks of e-mails and storyline building, after me and the staff member pulled the trigger on it (And I was a noob so i played it bad and trusted ONE other player with it) the same day the AoD (I can still never talk about how this went down) came out of a portal into the room I was in and insta-killed me within seconds without a single talk, say, or tell. No I was not in the city of Allanak. They weren't concerned with a giant mekillot slaughtering gate guards and citizens at the time, they took the chance to use that super twink ability to draw into the room I was in en masse and shut down any chance at any developing plotline. (granted mine was just one of.... many at the time)

So yes, I think if some of the players noticed a particular gith, i'm either underestimating the honesty of bored players or you are underestimating the ridiculousness of bored players. They will do anything just to do it if it is unique. Anyone trying to play a gith is just going to be hunted after, and the reasons will get more and more ridiculous as the players have to justify it to the staff. Eventually staff might be like ... "Oh, so you found a pancake under a rock in the barracks and knew to go out there and find that gith...?" But we all know the resurrection policy doesn't help us at that point.

I'm voting no because most players aren't cool enough to handle this seriously. if I thought it would involve more RP than: "I've seen a white-skinned gith once and we'll talk about it until someone collects that bounty" I might change my mind.

Or if the staff said: "Hey, we're going to let you play a gith with the same s-desc as ALL the other gith." --> Then i'm willing to reconsider this perspective! Sorry players.

I'd be happy to play a gith, and I think people are dramatically overestimating the rest of the playerbase in thinking that gith PCs would be unfairly hunted down.

There's only one power in the game that could 'unfairly' hunt down another player, and I'm sure staff would take a dim view against it being used against random gith.

I love my current character, but what I wouldn't give for a real antagonistic clan to be back in the game somewhere.

Staff:

Please let like 3 players who won't walk into a pit do this and then send me the logs of their deaths so I can validate my claims. Even do it all sneaky and don't announce it is happening. Here's a preview.


A room in either the tablelands or the red desert with lots of sand and potentially gith nearby.
You are standing here.
An NPC half-giant is standing here.
A hard-nosed templar is standing here with a bunch of magick augmentations.
A couple of gemmers are standing here.
A couple PC militia soldiers are here.
ex: NWSEU

Look west: You see

[Near] Nothing

[Far] Nothing

[Very Far] A white-skinned gith crouches here, foraging for tasty poop. (Lets just be fair and even say it is the s-desc 'yellow-skinned gith lopes along here')

....

Lie to me, but not to yourselves about what happens following this scene over the next five minutes of any arm players lifetime.
That event was years ago, it is shared for experience. Everyone is constantly chomping at the bit to do something 'more exciting'. My role at the time was the equivalent of officially becoming a 'bad guy'. It officially lasted like 2 hours (Granted, nobody has ever had the same power Samos' generation and his minions in Allanak did so far as I know so I picked a bad time to be a villain).

This is advocating for opening up a race with no allies, no ways other than death or war to interact with any other race (except each other)-- And you will very much be the bad guy.

There's a whole clan of southern soldiers without a northern enemy to face them anymore so the next available mob for spam killing is gith and their own people, and we've already seen one of those.

There's not really an issue with opening them to play, except I think it is a waste of time and that nobody will ultimately enjoy anything from it but tears of frustration and a feeling of emptiness inside of you. That staff time could have been spent (hopefully) doing something like expanding the actual gameworld so I have new stuff to interact with.

Gith would be a terrible place to try and go now in my opinion, for the players who tried to make it interesting. Just play a tribal if you want that kind of a role, its the same thing minus having army-sized numbers and cannabalism (this varies). If I am coming off as insensitive it really isn't.

I don't think most people will enjoy this role as much as they think they will, and would very swiftly become frustrated in most cases. There is nothing for gith to do but die unless they stay in boring mob guarded rooms and iso play as far as I know. I could be wrong on this also.

For me, closing Tuluk made sense, because trying to maintain two large cities' political scenes made no sense to me at all. Opening the gith makes far more sense, as it is just a raiding clan. Give them a 'powerful ruler' to back them up, so that you don't get to Samos them with a non-Samos character, and open them as the new, more powerful Blackmoon.

Cap PC membership at like ... 6. They don't detract from anything, and add a raiding threat back into the game. Give them a couple rules. They only kill 1 in 5 victims, and they trade in Red Storm, like the days of yore.

Quote from: Aruven on June 20, 2015, 11:44:38 AM
Staff:

Please let like 3 players who won't walk into a pit do this and then send me the logs of their deaths so I can validate my claims. Even do it all sneaky and don't announce it is happening. Here's a preview.


A room in either the tablelands or the red desert with lots of sand and potentially gith nearby.
You are standing here.
An NPC half-giant is standing here.
A hard-nosed templar is standing here with a bunch of magick augmentations.
A couple of gemmers are standing here.
A couple PC militia soldiers are here.

I can't ever recall seeing a templar with the sack to go hunting gith in the wastes. NPCs at that, let alone PCs, and I don't recall staff being keen on letting them take half-giant NPCs walking along with them.

Baring a few seemingly legendary exceptions, it seems to take substantial staff encouragement or an RPT to encourage the vast majority of templars or militia to step outside the walls. I find it hilarious that anyone thinks they would go out without being forced to.

I know there are a couple anecdotes to the contrary, but I've been playing Armageddon for a very long time, and I have never seen a templar leave Allanak without it being part of a staff plot. I know the Jihaens were better at leading Legionary patrols. Gemmers are annoying, but if staff is fine with the templarate using their whirans to hunt down random gith, then so be it. I don't think it would realistically happen. If I'm playing a gith, I'm definitely staying hooded. And if someone is stupid enough to contact me in a scene to sniff my sdesc, I would eat them.

The real danger to the gith would probably be Sun Runners (more owing to their NPC support than their PCs) and bored, maxed out 50-day+ GMH hunters/soldiers. But the Allanak templarate/militia doesn't even rate in my top ten for anything that doesn't take place within spitting distance of the Gaj. lol.

Besides. I see the gith shaping up more like a hardcore Red Fang experience than anything else. The Red Fangs and Gith supposedly traded as well.

Well it won't be such a big issue if its happens, like I said! I'm not right about everything.

I'm advocating for players to get to try this since everytime I see the GDB people are apparently playing on a different version of Ginka than I am.

I guess I would also add:

Doing this hopefully prepares you for the waves of people who fought closures of their clans (Like the red fangs, and other small 'raiding groups'). What about those guys? Do they get their clans opened back up with a max cap of 6 since the only reason we are adding the gith back to the game is to have some more dangerous elements in the sands?

If gith PCs piss off the Sun Runners, it's gonna end reeeeal fucking badly for the gith, unless the Staff let you roll a gith defiler.

Gith PCs will be stomped out long before it comes to the attention of any templar, fairly certain. They have no connections with other PC organizations. They are the throwaway bad guys. It would be a hard role but here's how I think it could work anyway?


They already do have a little infrastructure to back them up:

• They have three(?) spots they could retreat to where groups of PCs would not rush into hastily (twice).
• Make their documentation acceptable for them to do that.

Give them a little coded support:

• Have them start slightly skill boosted. (climb/hide/sneak)
• Give them more movement than desert elves.
• Code in the anti-mount stuff for player use and then let them use it too. (Perhaps they have to return a scalp/head and then they are given one. Some kind of limit)
• Make these gith the kind that can vanish like the ones in the red desert. Some kind of psychic dimension door ability with a long cooldown.

High and Low expectations:

• Require two+ karma.
• Make sure the players knows going in that they are likely to die. Make sure they know it's more of a flavor role.
• Emphasize playing it smart. Attack weaker groups and lone travellers.
• -Or make it so they don't care about surviving or odds, they care about feats of battle. So the newbie gith's main concern is some feat for some cultural reason.
  
• Emphasize playing it realistically. No trading/friends with other races. No travelling outside their territory.

Honestly, I think people are dramatically over-estimating just how dangerous it would be to play a gith.

There are some neat things that would benefit them, like having a defiler PC and variants of kankbane. But I do not think they would need boosted skills, or any special ability to escape danger. It would have to depend, I suppose, on what the current justification is for some gith NPCs to randomly disappear. I was never sure if that was actual gickery, a racial 'flee hide' type deal, or a trinket-type thing.

But it honestly wouldn't be that difficult. Most PCs would be far more terrified of even a newbie gith than vice versa. The Red Fangs, for example, were never particularly bothered by gickers. Typically because gickers prefer to not get shot with poison arrows.

The real issue isn't that the gith would be unfairly abused, it is that people would complain too much from them being threatened by gith PCs. Armageddon has had raider/antagonistic clans for most of its existence until somewhat recently. And now even the North vs South element is largely gone. So having an antagonist clan out there might be a rude shock to some people.

I will note though, that historically, IC, the gith did carry out trade with other races.

QuoteGive them a little coded support:
•Have them start slightly skill boosted. (climb/hide/sneak)
•Give them more movement than desert elves.
•Code in the anti-mount stuff for player use and then let them use it too. (Perhaps they have to return a scalp/head and then they are given one. Some kind of limit)
•Make these gith the kind that can vanish like the ones in the red desert. Some kind of psychic dimension door ability with a long cooldown.

All I can say to that is, Remember, gith are a TRUE desert race...it is likely that they have plenty to represent that.

QuoteHigh and Low expectations:
•Require two+ karma.
•Make sure the players knows going in that they are likely to die. Make sure they know it's more of a flavor role.
•Emphasize playing it smart. Attack weaker groups and lone travellers.
•-Or make it so they don't care about surviving or odds, they care about feats of battle. So the newbie gith's main concern is some feat for some cultural reason.

•Emphasize playing it realistically. No trading/friends with other races. No travelling outside their territory.

2 karma, yes.
As to the rest, I can think of at least 20 players including myself who could, assuming reasonable docs, keep a gith alive pretty much as long as we wanted...I really do not see an issue there.
And after setting them up,  and docs, the only real staff support I see them needing would be to make sure that PCs like Templars etc, act in a realistic manner...Not that I think this would be a problem, it was not with the red fangs.

After all...
Lord Templar, There are gith Raiders!!

Where, the gates, inside the city?

No, the desert!

Templar looks at man like he is a complete moron.

Come with me citizen...let me introduce you to the cuddler...OF COURSE THERE ARE GITH RAIDERS IN THE DESERT FOOL.

Oh, as to trading, As to gith culture/mentality...trading is not out of the question, but it should be Very hard.

Gith used to have npc representation in Red Storm. I'd allow that. As for the rest ... yeah.

I would enjoy roleplaying in that culture.  Gith are damn cool.

If you're the staff, why would you throw support and effort into a clan of things whose interaction with others would mostly just consist of coded combat and growly noises?

To get a clan that for once doesn't just spend all their time mudsexing. (Hopefully)

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2015, 04:09:31 AM
To get a clan that for once doesn't just spend all their time mudsexing. (Hopefully)

If I get a gith, I'm totally exploring their sexuality.

I've staffed other games, where there was equal drama surrounding the possible introduction of an antagonist faction. In every situation, actual PvP or PK was fairly minimal. You're more likely to get kill-crazy scenarios from factions that have supposedly co-existed and interacted for centuries, but who turn on each other out of boredom (Sun Runners and Red Fangs). Also, most PKs happen intra-clan. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Factions for whom there is a historical animosity, also tend to treat each other, as weirdly as this sounds, with more respect and caution.

Which is why every time it resulted in a ton more RP for people to roleplay around along with relatively few deaths. Let's be honest. Players don't really care about NPCs, and even staff animated threats aren't much to talk about after the fact. But people will obsessively discuss and plan around other PC threats for hours.

This only works though, if there is a meaningful basis for competition. A 'basis for competition' can be as simple as geographic proximity.

Antagonistic clans like the mantis and halflings did not work because they were extreme iso. It took extreme foolishness for someone to either blunder into where mantis/halflings lived, or vice versa. That adds nothing to the game that staff animations/NPCs can't handle equally well. Tuluk and Allanak antagonism didn't work out because they were too far away to have meaningful competition outside the occasional RPT. They were never a threat to each other.

Gith work because both sides feel threatened. The Red Desert is a great location. This creates hundreds of cumulative hours of intense RP for every few minutes of actual fighting. And I think you would be shocked - SHOCKED - at how often 'antagonistic' or 'raider' PCs give their victims every excuse to escape alive. In fact, you're more likely to be PK'd as a rogue gicker than by a raider. But everyone is fine with rogue gickers.

The reason why raiders kill people, 90% of the time, is owing to people looking at them/contacting them, to get their description. It's deeply unfortunate but the only one to blame is Armageddon's code. If 'contact' didn't give someone's sdesc, and if people could conceal their mdesc, PKs would go *way* down.

I could even see a situation where Gith in the Red Desert manages to revitalize the trade routes through the Tablelands, creating more RP for desert elves as well, since people are going to want to use the Dol Takar to take the long way around to say, Luirs or such.

I don't think basing the Gith PCs in the Tablelands would work well.

Quote from: Clearsighted on June 22, 2015, 12:52:50 PM
Gith work because both sides feel threatened. The Red Desert is a great location. This creates hundreds of cumulative hours of intense RP for every few minutes of actual fighting. And I think you would be shocked - SHOCKED - at how often 'antagonistic' or 'raider' PCs give their victims every excuse to escape alive. In fact, you're more likely to be PK'd as a rogue gicker than by a raider. But everyone is fine with rogue gickers.

The reason why raiders kill people, 90% of the time, is owing to people looking at them/contacting them, to get their description. It's deeply unfortunate but the only one to blame is Armageddon's code. If 'contact' didn't give someone's sdesc, and if people could conceal their mdesc, PKs would go *way* down.

I would say that "PK as a first resort" is a playerbase problem more than a code problem. As a longtime militia PC, I learned that it's generally just better to kill PCs who cause you trouble because it's less trouble for you down the road. Most PCs don't really appreciate being left alive enough to justify it.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2015, 01:05:38 PM

Quote from: Clearsighted on June 22, 2015, 12:52:50 PM
Gith work because both sides feel threatened. The Red Desert is a great location. This creates hundreds of cumulative hours of intense RP for every few minutes of actual fighting. And I think you would be shocked - SHOCKED - at how often 'antagonistic' or 'raider' PCs give their victims every excuse to escape alive. In fact, you're more likely to be PK'd as a rogue gicker than by a raider. But everyone is fine with rogue gickers.

The reason why raiders kill people, 90% of the time, is owing to people looking at them/contacting them, to get their description. It's deeply unfortunate but the only one to blame is Armageddon's code. If 'contact' didn't give someone's sdesc, and if people could conceal their mdesc, PKs would go *way* down.

I would say that "PK as a first resort" is a playerbase problem more than a code problem. As a longtime militia PC, I learned that it's generally just better to kill PCs who cause you trouble because it's less trouble for you down the road. Most PCs don't really appreciate being left alive enough to justify it.

The militia/rinth/allank dynamic is much different from the wastelands.

In the wastelands, you're virtually always dealing with players who have a significant amount of time and effort invested in their PCs, or else they wouldn't be in the wastes.

In Allanak, you're much more often to be dealing with throwaways or cretins. There's also the whole law enforcement aspect. When one side (the militia/templars) have all the power, and are in fact, the only ones allowed to even initiate combat most of the time, and with tons of powerful NPCs as support, combined with how boring a city-bound role usually is...There's less incentive to not just hammer anyone even remotely asking for it.

It can't be compared, really.

Long-lived cretins in the city are especially worth killing. More troublesome and worth double the points.

Things aren't so stacked in Law Enforcements favor either, if you're smart about how you engage.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2015, 01:18:10 PM
Long-lived cretins in the city are especially worth killing. More troublesome and worth double the points.

Things aren't so stacked in Law Enforcements favor either, if you're smart about how you engage.

Both points are true. But I hope you'll agree that the PvP dynamic is very different in Allanak (specifically) as opposed to the rest of the game in general.

Void of conflict?

I just play a merchant, so I get to see several conversations in the same week from different perspectives. I can see there is quite a bit of conflict now just in Allanak alone.
Also while I am in no way against the gith race, they are a PK race if nothing else right now. If you are looking to create conflict through sole PK, that is not that great of a plot and people will just ignore the areas. If you're looking to create conflict from some group of desert raiders... Well there are several D elf and Human tribes available already that have their own conflicts active at this very moment and they could use more players. Instead of closing an area to consolidate rp, and then opening a new race to separate everyone, use the closing of Tuluk to strengthen the smaller clans in the desert if you want desert conflict rp, or strengthen some of the nobles families in Allanak to strengthen in inter-noble conflict

Problem with Allanaki nobles is that they're so entrenched in their specific niches that it's hard for them to have anything meaningful to compete about, without basically affecting it.

There's too many things in Arm that need to be affected or pretended, instead of having a real driving impetus for practical/pragmatic reasons.

To include a good thing in this post...It's awesome when you desperately need a staffer, and you wish up in a life or death situation (where the code is an obstacle, even if the solution would be ICly simple) and they show up right away to help out, and toss in a few colorful emotes. I don't know who it was, but I loved that.