Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => World Discussion => Topic started by: James de Monet on July 09, 2014, 11:49:38 AM

Title: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 09, 2014, 11:49:38 AM
Broken out from RAT.

I think the problem is actually not with clan pay. You're in a clan, it costs you a month's pay to get a decent sword? That sounds reasonable. Half a year's pay to buy a mount? A year's pay to buy a badass piece of armor? That all seems fine to me.

The place where I see it falling apart is recreation.

You have to kind of assume that a lot of people on this terrible world would drink their pay away.  It doesn't seem unreasonable that a soldier or clanned hunter would be able to afford two slightly-better-than-piss drinks every night when they get off work. If most players don't see more than 2-3 nights in an RL day of play:

2 (drinks per night) * 2.5 (nights per RL day) * 14 (RL days in an IG month) = 70 (drinks a clanned should reasonably be able to afford in an IG month)

300 (average monthly clan income) / 70 (drinks) = 4.3 'sid (what a mug of swill would have to cost to make that a reality)

If you consider that your base level drinks cost what, five times that? I think that's where the model really falls apart for me.


I get all the arguments about desert world, etc, etc, but I think if drinks were made cheaper, clanned characters could drink to a more realistic level, and would spend less time feeling abominably poor.  Additionally, there are parallels to RL places where beer is cheaper than water. And if its a concern about "thirst", perhaps we could make new cheap drinks that don't quench it at all (or so little as to be essentially worthless)?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 09, 2014, 11:57:23 AM
Since the RAT thread said feel free to quote yourselves, I'll toss this out there with no context, then read the original post in a moment...
Also, don't forget the protections that clans afford their members, the free food, the gatherings and increased social standing, the opportunities for interaction as part of a group, training facilities, discounts on goods and services. When you really think about it, as an indie you have to handle all that yourself, and that coin you make won't get you too far once you start adding up time, effort, expenses, but on the upside you get freedom with your coin (even if it ends up ruining you in the end), freedom to decide your own schedule...

Let's also not forget the benefit those indies provide to the player economy, purchasing goods and services, opportunities for blackmail, ransom, "protection money" abound. I'm sure there's a way we can all work this out so it smoothly runs together.

Also, indies offer outside clan opportunities for interaction, positive or negative, unconventional means of getting things done. Let's not ignore the value of a good wild-card just because we get stuck in certain ways and manners of solving problems.

In the end, clans provide plenty of incentive for people who want certain things out of their gaming experience. Not being in a clan should be difficult, yes, there's no one there handling for you the things a clan -would- be doing, and there's a chance you get your priorities even just subtly unbalanced and it gets you killed. Personally, I like the way things are, with the exception of clan pay.

That said I've playyed games where the only influx of currency was newb money. Starts off good, but when that starts to run dry... it's just no fun anymore.

Although, I do see Dman's point.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Reiloth on July 09, 2014, 12:21:20 PM
I agree that food/drink prices in particular areas are high.

I think that free room/board/storage/food/water is pretty easily discounted in the scheme of things. When you don't have those things, you are grinding pretty much all the time to make money enough to get those things. Or at least I am. I'm not the best at the pyramid scheme of 'indy hunter that makes 50k', but I like clans because it takes care of that aspect for the PC, and I think it's realistic that people would join clans mainly for that reason.

From what I have seen, pay-scale in clans seems fine. I think that Nobles and Templars could always get paid more (and probably are/have been due to IC events in places like Tuluk), and that trickles down to the plebeians (American Economy anyone?). If recreational drugs/alcohol were a little cheaper, that'd be nice too.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: senseofeven on July 09, 2014, 12:36:46 PM
Would it be game breaking if the militia in each city could pay a little lesser for things in their respective city states? Since they get paltry pay, of course in some shops the discount does not apply or perhaps a even smaller discount compared to the rest of the populace.

Since they are lifesworn and all that - shop NPCs could give the discount on certain random times to coded militia members because they felt like, "Hey, you're doing a good job. Here have a discount.". Would be fun to listen to recruits/soldiers sharing in the barracks about that nice bazaar lady who shaved off some coin on an item he was eyeing.

It'll scale a little better to the pay scheme, possibly. And our soldiers can drink til they're merry and ease off the stresses of their jobs.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Reiloth on July 09, 2014, 12:47:38 PM
Would it be game breaking if the militia in each city could pay a little lesser for things in their respective city states? Since they get paltry pay, of course in some shops the discount does not apply or perhaps a even smaller discount compared to the rest of the populace.

Since they are lifesworn and all that - shop NPCs could give the discount on certain random times to coded militia members because they felt like, "Hey, you're doing a good job. Here have a discount.". Would be fun to listen to recruits/soldiers sharing in the barracks about that nice bazaar lady who shaved off some coin on an item he was eyeing.

It'll scale a little better to the pay scheme, possibly. And our soldiers can drink til they're merry and ease off the stresses of their jobs.

Hah, that's actually a really good idea. Combats the low pay with much lower prices, and it'd be hilarious if they got 'free coffee' from the bars. Maybe free water?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 09, 2014, 12:51:27 PM
I call it the "Please go away and leave me alone, you're frightening off my business." discount!
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dakota on July 09, 2014, 12:58:39 PM
Frankly...

I think it's fine the way it is and TOO FEW PEOPLE... are actually ever poor in this game (kudos to those who RP destitute and poor). Also if you have a city-based PC and are NOT clanned... you tend to spend a tonne on water and food over time. Free water and food tends to go a long way.

Perhaps -higher- ranking PC's (Corporal and above?) should get good pay, but I've never met a Kurac Corporal / Salarri who didn't have gear in spades and loads of coin to go around.

SO I think if you're in a clan and (aside from a Sergeant or above) are bitching about sid? You're doing it right.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: senseofeven on July 09, 2014, 01:05:04 PM

Perhaps -higher- ranking PC's (Corporal and above?) should get good pay, but I've never met a Kurac Corporal / Salarri who didn't have gear in spades and loads of coin to go around.


Good idea. Since mid and upper leaderships are somewhat running the ground in the clans now - they will need extra sids to throw around, get stuff, or to pocket it all and be corrupt.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 09, 2014, 02:23:32 PM
What if clan pay paid a base salary but then offered a bonus based on the amount of time played for being logged in?  Just an idea.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Desertman on July 09, 2014, 02:41:31 PM
House Hunters.

They get...

400coins a month. - If the hunter is worth anything, this means if they go on more than two or three hunts and give the materials to the House, they are now losing money.

Free water - If the hunter is worth anything, this is nothing. They already can and do get their own water for free.

Free food - If the hunter is worth anything, this is nothing. They already get so much food for free just from doing their job.

Free Storage/A Room - If the hunter is worth anything, they can easily afford to rent a place. With that being said, one perk here is the House "place" is behind guarded gates, so, I can see this as a perk.


The only IC perk to joining a House as a hunter is guarded storage, and being "affiliated".

Economically it makes zero sense and any Hunter worth actually having would lose a ton of money being employed by a House, but, they just might live longer. Then again, that argument goes back to them being worth anything. If they need to be guarded by other House members while out hunting, they aren't worth having anyways as a hunter.

I find I only ever join Houses as a hunter for OOC reasons. Usually that reason is I OOC'ly like a current clan leader, or OOC'ly just want the RP interaction within that House. I make up IC excuses to fit my OOC motivations.

"Well, I know I'm losing a ton of sid being here, but, I am here because of blah blah blah blah blah a gith killed my mum."



Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Desertman on July 09, 2014, 02:46:22 PM
Oh, I kind of got off on a tangent.

The point to my above post is that as it stands, being a House hunter is really great if you are a newb and need to be taught how to hunt/can't hunt already/aren't a vet player/are playing a character who is roleplaying not being a good hunter.

For vets/capable hunters, the incentives to join a House as a hunter really are not there IC'ly in terms of the economics surrounding IC'ly taking on that employment.

"You want to pay me 400 coins a month, after a year of working for free, to hunt for you? The materials I'm going to bring you in the first two weeks are going to be worth more than 400 coins. LMFAO no, bye."

I would really like to see some new incentives thrown in to being employed by a House that truly reflect how important/awesome such a job would be in the IC world.

Being valuable enough to be employed by one of the greatest Houses in the Known's economy should be a pretty sweet gig, and it really isn't.



Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Desertman on July 09, 2014, 02:55:49 PM
Adding this tidbit...

I don't think increasing clan pay is the solution. You could jack it up to three times what it is currently and good hunters would still lose money easily every IC month by giving all of their materials to the House.

I think there needs to be more coded and roleplayed benefits actually in the game world as a whole to better reflect the importance/value of such a job on an IC level.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: QuillDipper on July 09, 2014, 03:40:04 PM
Brief contribution - I think militia in both cities are fine not making much through pay, because they have the ability to make a lot more via "bonuses" from shakedowns and criminals. I think I've read before that people know militia don't make much, yet they still end up in expensive apartments, because that's how the cities work. You don't join either militia because you wanna clean the streets you join because you're a power hungry dick.

If a soldier isn't satisfied with their pay they need to shake more rinthis down and get more 'taxes' from indies. Are there potential IC consequences? Yes, but as always one should remember those are not OOC angers.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 09, 2014, 10:32:25 PM
For one thing, I think that hunters should be able to sell the stuff that the House doesn't need (or usually doesn't need). Kadius isn't going to need many pelts or skulls or bones, so aside from those pelts that they need for a exquisite neon backpack, their hunters should be free to sell those off, either in the markets or to other PCs. Salarr probably doesn't need a chest full of rubies, so aside from the rubies the House asks for, maybe their hunters should be able to sell off those rubies.

For crafters in either house, I think it falls on their Mercantile Leadership to make sure they are well compensated for their time. For instance, if I were playing a leader in a GMH, I might give bonuses for 25-50-100 sid for helping me with a task, with this of course dependent on things like how much coin I was raking in anyway. This isn't a lot at first glance, but it adds up so that your crafters are doing well. Add that to the bonuses I'm sure crafters get for having their stuff sold, House specialty or not, and those crafters should have some bux in hand.

And all of that is aside from good food, water, storage, resting area.

For Noble Houses, I simply think the pay rate should be stupidly luxurious. They're Noble Houses. No, you're not scraping by these days - you work directly for Lady Stickem Borsail.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 10, 2014, 01:04:19 AM
I don't think throwing sid at the problem works either. Mostly because after a certain amount of time, you got all the gear you need, and unless you are renting your own apartment you have money piling up in the bank since the house should be covering almost all your needs.I think pay should cover a decent apartment and it already does in most places.

militia- Everything in the city should be 50 percent off. Everything. Even when buyiing from a merchant house from a PC, i'd sayl. Tavern in particular should practically be giving them 90% discounts. Militia do get alot of other interesting and at times powerful perks in the city already though.

noble houses-Bonuses, pay and benefits should be decided by the sponsored noble, they've been given the tools to make the job of aide very rewarding i think.

kurac- I really feel they need to build apartments in luirs, allowing only lifesworn to rent them, let their family/mates stay with them while they live. Other then that lifesworn should get kurac things at 90 % off, if not utterly free at kuraci establishments.

I think kadius and salarr are alright, maybe a tad bit more pay but considering the schedule(or lack there of) and the fact that you can just do contract work for them for a while, I think what they get now seems to fit. I am not really sure what I would give lifesworn of the these two houses that they wouldn't already get. I like the idea of hunters being able to sell the excess stuff the house might not need, for example the meat from the hunt. Some places/people besides the hunters would probably even benefit from this too i think.

Byn- No idea. Though it would be nice if I could hire a trooper to watch my back while grebbing or escort me from one place to another without having to talk to the sergeant, since i just want one trooper, not the entire unit. I think troopers should be allowed to take on very small solo contracts at their own discretion. Not sure if that would work out given their schedules. I'm sure other people have better ideas for them, assuming they need anything at all. Being in the byn isn't really luxurious sought after work after all.

The thing is the major reason for joining a clan is for the plots. If everyone who joined a clan was rich it would become harder to bribe people . In fact, making people in clans poorer then they are now would probably have more interesting consequences in terms of corruption then making them richer to match independants.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: QuillDipper on July 10, 2014, 01:12:10 AM
I disagree slightly on the militia discount. I think that various NPC shops in Allanak -should- do it, in the Commoner's Quarter, but the Merchant Houses, both NPC and not, wouldn't offer that. They have their own relationship to the militia and the templarate and their prices are one way of being an absolute dick back to the people who are rude to them.

It's important to remember that even the militia rely on the GMHs for certain supplies, because if someone like Salarr bailed then no one would make such high quality weapons in the city. They have a monopoly on quality.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Riev on July 10, 2014, 01:38:56 AM
Really, this all plays in to Extrinsic vs Intrinsic motivation.

Extrinsic -
    Throw coin at the problem. If we pay them more, they'll want to stick around.
    Give them some extra coded benefits. If we can't pay them more, maybe they like discounts!


Intrinsic -
    A sense of challenge, comparable to the risk vs reward.
    Positive Praise from your higher ups.
    Competition with yourself, or those around you.



There's obviously a ton more between them, but think of that a bit before posting. If we pay them more, its an extrinsic reward. Its quick, its messy, but it gets the job done in the short term. If you make people WANT to work for you, even if you paid them NOTHING EVER? You probably have a pretty rad company to work for.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: CodeMaster on July 10, 2014, 02:51:01 AM
Make drinks cheaper, sure.

I want to say that money isn't the best way to incentivize PCs in a MUD, though.  Why?  You want the game to be playable, so you don't saddle the player with the pain in the ass of replacing her armor, boots, or camping gear every month...

...By the same token (heh), mounts appear to be immortal ('cept kanks), and moreover even the most exotic variety costs a piddly 20 coins to stable...

...Food doesn't rot, backpacks don't carry the stench of all the stinking garbage we put in them, cure tablets don't crumble away, etc. etc.

Apartments offset this a little, giving the veteran something to spend her coins on, but as soon as her income (or her combined roommates') exceeds the rent by something like 10 coins, we run into the same problem anew.

Coins are really nothing, once you get going.  I'd be surprised if 90% of the player base didn't choose his/her clans (or to be an indie) because that role offered them the opportunity to explore themes (conflict, power, creation, whatever) that they found interesting, especially with a leader PC and peers who are fun to play with.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 10, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
That is how I choose the clan/role.

Besides...rules are meant to be broken...especially sillier ones like "everything you hunt belongs to the clan".
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2014, 07:42:26 AM
Once you're in a clan, you no longer need coin for anything at all. You don't have to worry about having an "off-day" hunting/grebbing/crafting, because even on an "off-day" you are fed, watered, sheltered, and have a place to store your shit. You have no -need- to amass wealth, because even if a templar needs a bribe from you, your clan boss would have it covered (unless you do something monumentally stupid, in which case you should be submitting a new app anyway).

You only -need- sids if you have no clan. By the time the Red Fang camp was destroyed, there was around 120,000 sids sitting on a rug in one of their tents. Why? Because they didn't need it, and desert elves don't have bank accounts.

If "I can make more sids going solo" is your reason to not join a clan, then you're playing a different game. You're playing a code game, not a RP game. The reason to want to join a clan would be because your *character* would want prestige, protection, the opportunity to shake things up, make new rules, stir some pots, make world changes, make clan changes, become the boss of a place that's got built-in street cred.

The reason to want to NOT join a clan is to create all the above yourself from scratch, knowing full well that it's already been done so you wouldn't be doing anything unique. You'd just be doing it harder.

My characters' reasons for NOT joining clans: They're secretly a mage and don't want to get caught. They're a breed and don't feel they deserve the right. They have mental issues. The clan boss is a dick and they will consider working for the house once that clan boss is replaced. They lack the aptitude for the jobs being advertised. They're rinthis/elves and that makes them automatically ineligible.

Those are the kinds of reasons to NOT join a clan.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barsook on July 10, 2014, 08:20:34 AM
For one thing, I think that hunters should be able to sell the stuff that the House doesn't need (or usually doesn't need). Kadius isn't going to need many pelts or skulls or bones, so aside from those pelts that they need for a exquisite neon backpack, their hunters should be free to sell those off, either in the markets or to other PCs. Salarr probably doesn't need a chest full of rubies, so aside from the rubies the House asks for, maybe their hunters should be able to sell off those rubies.

I agree with this point and it allow the GMH to not lose money because of their hunters being in unneeded items.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 10, 2014, 08:24:30 AM
Reasons not to join clan: Don't want to be blindsided by sudden sponsored role that ruins everything you (personally, maybe everyone else hated it and it's better the new way) enjoyed about the clan and turns it into something you'd rather have nothing to do with, without a gradual cooperative shift by clan PC population. Don't like being told when to do things, how to do things, or what to do, for whatever reason. Don't like mandatory activities or schedules. Don't like that for whatever reason, you're always passed up for promotion. Just like to be your own damn boss. Don't want to be stuck doing crap you hate over and over again because rules, because I said so, because yearly contracts or lifeswearing. Don't want to be forced into the role of a posturing, pompous buffoon who's utterly inflexible on anything and continually rammed against the same sort of mentality.

Do I currently find the idea of joining a clan an attractive option? No, not for me personally. Did I always dislike the idea of joining a clan? Also no. May there be some point in time where I am interested in joining a clan? Depends. Currently, a few things would have to change. Is it the coin? No, but my PC is going to want some booze, maybe some workable armor, maybe a decent, serviceable weapon, maybe wants to purchase services from another PC, maybe wants a private place to go for activities best removed from the public eye where some shiv-happy rinthi taint-master is a little less likely to drop in any time, as well as store some personal items behind a semi-reasonably secure lock. I'm not asking for one-time mastercraft horror-plated salt-worm leather here. Just asking for a few things that would help my PCs do their job a little better as well as keep their morale up.

If the clan can't provide these things for my PC, as well as gaurentee the rug won't be whipped out from under them and the whole world flipped turned upside down on them because of a surprise management changeup, then no, not really inspired to join. I can manage these things on my own, with a bit of work, and the extra challenge is kind of a fun exercise to figure out. Maybe it will get boring for me in the future. If any of this came across as snippy, I apologize, I haven't slept in a while, and I might be a little grouchy and not realize it.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 10, 2014, 08:26:59 AM
For one thing, I think that hunters should be able to sell the stuff that the House doesn't need (or usually doesn't need). Kadius isn't going to need many pelts or skulls or bones, so aside from those pelts that they need for a exquisite neon backpack, their hunters should be free to sell those off, either in the markets or to other PCs. Salarr probably doesn't need a chest full of rubies, so aside from the rubies the House asks for, maybe their hunters should be able to sell off those rubies.


I believe this is happening in some form in at least one GMH at least in theory.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Desertman on July 10, 2014, 10:03:46 AM

Byn- No idea. Though it would be nice if I could hire a trooper to watch my back while grebbing or escort me from one place to another without having to talk to the sergeant, since i just want one trooper, not the entire unit. I think troopers should be allowed to take on very small solo contracts at their own discretion. Not sure if that would work out given their schedules. I'm sure other people have better ideas for them, assuming they need anything at all. Being in the byn isn't really luxurious sought after work after all.


The reason The Byn doesn't do this is because The Byn ends up with a lot of enemies, for some reason. People really seem to lack the ability to grasp the concept that they are mercenaries and even if they kill your brother, it isn't personal, they should go after whoever hired The Byn to kill him. The reason this matters is because if Troopers were allowed to take jobs alone, even small ones, you would end up with this.

"Hey Trooper, I need you to guard me today while I dig salt."

"Sure, no problem, that will cost you X amount of sid."

Off they go to dig salt.....

While digging salt.....

"Hey Trooper, The Byn killed someone close to me five years ago and now I am taking it out on you! CAST ULTIMATE FIREBALL MON TROOPER DEATH!"

Dead Trooper....

The next day the guys walks into a bar....

"Hey other Trooper, I need someone to help me dig salt."


The Byn is already the best setup clan in the game in my opinion in terms of reflecting exactly what they are. I don't think they need any love.


Salarr and Kadius, especially their hunter branches....especially Kadius....they need some love.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Reiloth on July 10, 2014, 01:51:53 PM
The other thing to consider is longevity within a role (when it comes to seeing Corporals decked out in gear, etc.)

Some of these PCs have been in the role for over a RL year, sometimes longer, and when that is the case, they just accumulate crap. Sometimes it's cool crap, like the Spear from Hell and the Ridged Pectorals of Awesome, and for the most part the cool crap is what they are wearing. I don't think that means anything besides they've been around for a while, saved up money/blew some people who had money, and made it happen eventually.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 10, 2014, 02:16:00 PM
I do think I see your point, D-man. It makes sense and besides I did say other people probably have a better grasp about the byn than me. However, I just got to say, for some reason your example makes me like my idea more, not less.  :D Though you know, maybe its just the blood lust talking though. :-[

I don't think kadius and salarr are that bad off. They are really two of my favorite clans to join. You join a clan but you are still given such vast amounts of freedom. It almost feels like you are still an independent in some ways but with clan backings should you need it.

This is a bit of a derail but I think the only problem with kadius and salarr is they both compete for the same type of player. They are looking for hunters, crafters , some guards etc etc. I know they both have their own theme and history, and they are often doing their own thing but if kadius and salarr merged for example, you would probably have people competing for the positions it offers. Then again the benefit of having both is being able to alternate between these two clans and enjoy them more frequently especially if your character are prone to dying.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 10, 2014, 02:23:27 PM
I'm not saying "nerf indies", but I think applying bigger consequences to Indies getting rich would solve a lot of problems. The only reason why clanned hunters seem poor is because some Indies get disproportionately rich. As it stands now, I can spend newbie coin to join the Byn,  train a bit, go solo hunt til I make other Rage Against the GMH friends, and then make a killing without trying.

Indies just getting by is just fine imo. Indies accumulating wealth and scoffing at GMH power is not, and can/should be dealt with by those GMH players. I know I do my part.

Suck it, indies.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 10, 2014, 02:48:18 PM
I would not mind if they merged. Especially if the sorry line was cool and there was an effort to hold on to some history.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: i like me some ham on July 10, 2014, 04:19:01 PM
Clan invisible variability scares me, is why clans usually don't hold much appeal for me. Once upon a time, I could join Kadius as a crafter, spend whatever time I wanted crafting or goofing off so long as I had something decent to show for it in my chest at the end of the month, and it doesn't take that long really, unless you're looking to impress. A RL year later, I join in the same exact role and I get a Byn schedule, but fro crafting. *shudder.* Another time, when I joined a clan, they shipped me off to the Byn for a game year and I had absolutely no choice in the matter if I wanted to stay on. As a crafter. My patience is not so zen and I eventually didn't make it.

I don't mind that different clan leaders have different ways of going about things but when I can't see it until after I sign my soul off to the devil that kind of turns me away. Also, I'm a picky bitch who doesn't want much, but if I see a 100 sid whateverthing in the store and I NEED IT NOW but I can't afford it until payday, you know. And it would seem sensible OOCly to get an indie to buy it for me and I'd pay them off later.

I think indies are fine if you're not going to change the costs of byn fees, silt skimmers, etc Just maybe have it set so, depending on the local political climate, Kaidus people get a 20% discount at Salaar, 90% at Kadius, keep coded tuns full of booze in the in the compounds so they can go drink whenever they want and start getting drinking problems, I know the water barrel in the Byn is impossibly full at all times, you can bring this to the merchant houses in the form of booze. Decent stuff, too, wave it over the pittance of shit ale that dung sweeper can afford. Might not fix the disparity 100% but it'll get people to shut up for about a year.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 10, 2014, 04:55:50 PM
If you are playing in a GMH, staff will probably cheer you on if you want to make indies miserable.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2014, 05:06:19 PM
I like that Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac are all separate entities. I think the "hunter issues" that crop up often enough that they're issues, and not just perceived issues.

Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

This way, if Salarr and Kadius both need hunters one month, the hunters would all work together to get whatever is needed for both. If Salarr doesn't need anything one month, no reason for the hunters to sit on their asses being bored - because they can still do some stuff for Kadius without being "traitors" to anyone.

There could be a northern and southern branch of the pool, exclusive to those areas, OR there could be one branch that travels as needed to fill out the existing Salarr or Kadian hunters who don't join the pool.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 10, 2014, 05:10:58 PM
I like that Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac are all separate entities. I think the "hunter issues" that crop up often enough that they're issues, and not just perceived issues.

Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

This way, if Salarr and Kadius both need hunters one month, the hunters would all work together to get whatever is needed for both. If Salarr doesn't need anything one month, no reason for the hunters to sit on their asses being bored - because they can still do some stuff for Kadius without being "traitors" to anyone.

There could be a northern and southern branch of the pool, exclusive to those areas, OR there could be one branch that travels as needed to fill out the existing Salarr or Kadian hunters who don't join the pool.


I hate the pool idea. When you hire an employee you're looking for  loyalty. There's no loyalty in a pool. People join clans for plots. You can't give them plots til there's trust.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 10, 2014, 05:35:04 PM
The Black Scrabs kinda filled that pool role when they were active. They called themselves mercenaries, but they were primarily grebbers and hunters for hire. I took a couple of contracts from Salarr and others while playing with them that amounted to X amount of material Y.

It didn't matter that they weren't loyal to a house, their plots came from being what they were, the same as the Byn's do.  Other grebbers didn't like them. Red Fangs didn't like them. It worked pretty well, actually.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2014, 06:10:07 PM
You're missing the point Barsook. Some people don't WANT to be members of Salarr, just to fulfill their adventure desires, but they DO want to be part of a group, based out of a city. They want to be hunters, they're not necessarily interested in getting involved in city-based plots, or GMH-based drama and all the baggage that goes with it. Salarr wouldn't want to hire them as employees with access to their estate. But those hunters would be loyal to the pool. The pool that exists to serve the two main "hunter-based" GMHs: Salarr and Kadius. They don't compete all that much in the first place, so there's no real worry about "disloyalty" anyway, with regards to hunters who are only hired to be hunters. The only time there -can- be "disloyalty" is if you make those hunters exclusive to one house or the other.

And that's where you have the exclusive hunters who actually WANT the drama and politics and prestige. In fact, newer hunters who want to become Salarri hunters, could be required to start out in the pool and earn their place in the House. The same with new crafters. Let them learn how to BE crafters - codedly and RP-wise, and THEN they can vie for a spot in one of the GMHs. Until that point, they could be members of the pool, who don't have access to the clan-specific crafts, and therefore have nothing to be "disloyal" for.

If Salarr's hurting for low-level grebbers, and don't really need experienced hunters right now, why should they put their Senior Officers out foraging for twigs? Why should they hire someone who WANTS to be a Senior Officer, when all Salarr needs is someone who's available this week, and has the House's sanction, to do some grebbing for them? And then the next week they could help get whatever herbs Kadius needs to make dyes for their master crafters. And then maybe the week after they can help fill out the order for a dozen tanned carru hides, helping to hunt, skin, and tan, for those 2 available Salarris. Why should Salarr have to wait 6 RL days for the four full unit's worth of employees to happen to all log on at the same time, when they can draw from a pool of 10 eager beavers just itching to get out and do something productive - but don't want to be members of their house?

They don't HAVE to be loyal, because they're not employees of the individual House. They're employees of the collective hunters' pool which is funded by the GMHs as a whole, which means those employees can't be conscripted, they can't become nobles' aides, they can't join the Byn - until they leave that pool officially.

It gives "indies who don't really want to be indies but don't want to join a GMH" a place to be, something to do, and a group to belong to.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2014, 06:13:36 PM
The Black Scrabs kinda filled that pool role when they were active. They called themselves mercenaries, but they were primarily grebbers and hunters for hire. I took a couple of contracts from Salarr and others while playing with them that amounted to X amount of material Y.

It didn't matter that they weren't loyal to a house, their plots came from being what they were, the same as the Byn's do.  Other grebbers didn't like them. Red Fangs didn't like them. It worked pretty well, actually.

And yes I think a lot of the "independent crews" that form so often, are trying to be one of two things: The next GMH, or some kind of pool from which the GMHs draw from. That's part of what inspired my idea.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Maker on July 11, 2014, 08:49:29 AM
Essentially, sounds like a push for a hunter's guild.  Not sure if that or a union would be the better analogy.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 11, 2014, 09:22:31 AM
Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

Wouldn't a simpler and less contrived solution be for any group that needs unskilled, not necessarily loyal labor for some task...to simply ask for it, provided it is acceptable in their documentation?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 11, 2014, 10:09:49 AM
Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

Wouldn't a simpler and less contrived solution be for any group that needs unskilled, not necessarily loyal labor for some task...to simply ask for it, provided it is acceptable in their documentation?

"Sorry, but my House provides all I have need of." *snubs you to either stare at a wall or makes small-talk, never mentions, oh, I don't think we need those, but you should speak with my supervisor*

"We need large chunks of obsidian, we'll pay handsomely for them!" *so exciting!*
After much exhausting labor, terror, and heartache, grebber McGee drags his near bloody stump of a leg down the road, leaving an easily followed trail of blood, huge bag of obsidian chunks tinkling loudly with each tug. He weeps, and although covered in what look like tarantula and raptor fang marks, the way he keeps stopping and almost collapsing every time he looks at a ring on one of his still-attached fingers gives a clue the physical wounds are the least of his worry. He drags himself to the compound, a withered, bloody, simpering husk barely clinging to life, and finds the agent's mind, his commitment to the task at hand perhaps the only thing staying the icy hand of Drov.
"You have large chunks of obsidian? Great. We'll pay fifteen obsidian pieces per chunk. Well, no, we don't pay much because they take up a lot of space and aren't really used for much. Well if you want that much, why didn't you just go to the office of the mines in the first place? I'm sorry to hear of your loss, but quite frankly, I don't give a squat."
"If yer so poor ye gotta haggle like that, well uh, just take the shit free." and thus ends the tragic tale of grebber McGee, as he slowly drags himself to a nice, quiet spot to bleed to death.

Sorry about the dramatic tale there, I made all that up, but I've encountered both vague scenarios. Neither is good for business between unskilled labor and the GMHs. I'm sure there's more, and there's a few things I'd mention loosely related, but it would be too much IC info, so nope.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 11, 2014, 11:11:54 AM
Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

Wouldn't a simpler and less contrived solution be for any group that needs unskilled, not necessarily loyal labor for some task...to simply ask for it, provided it is acceptable in their documentation?

"Sorry, but my House provides all I have need of." *snubs you to either stare at a wall or makes small-talk, never mentions, oh, I don't think we need those, but you should speak with my supervisor*

In this case, the group obviously does not need unskilled/not necessarily loyal labor, and therefore this situation doesn't apply (after all, you are asking them, not the other way around).

Quote
"We need large chunks of obsidian, we'll pay handsomely for them!" *so exciting!*
After much exhausting labor, terror, and heartache, grebber McGee drags his near bloody stump of a leg down the road, leaving an easily followed trail of blood, huge bag of obsidian chunks tinkling loudly with each tug. He weeps, and although covered in what look like tarantula and raptor fang marks, the way he keeps stopping and almost collapsing every time he looks at a ring on one of his still-attached fingers gives a clue the physical wounds are the least of his worry. He drags himself to the compound, a withered, bloody, simpering husk barely clinging to life, and finds the agent's mind, his commitment to the task at hand perhaps the only thing staying the icy hand of Drov.
"You have large chunks of obsidian? Great. We'll pay fifteen obsidian pieces per chunk. Well, no, we don't pay much because they take up a lot of space and aren't really used for much. Well if you want that much, why didn't you just go to the office of the mines in the first place? I'm sorry to hear of your loss, but quite frankly, I don't give a squat."
"If yer so poor ye gotta haggle like that, well uh, just take the shit free." and thus ends the tragic tale of grebber McGee, as he slowly drags himself to a nice, quiet spot to bleed to death.

So the group does need unskilled/not necessarily loyal labor, is able to ask for it according to their documentation or the allowance of staff for the group, and is also willing to (on an individual basis) be a dick to said indie that doesn't want to commit to being part of the group, an indie that also has no backing anywhere else to keep him or her from getting screwed over...an indie that is unwilling to engage in haggling with someone that clearly holds the superior position.

Sounds like Armageddon to me.  You aren't going to be able to dictate terms too well as an independent like that latter scenario.  That grebber seems a bit like a dumbass anyway, seeing as how he'd give up a chance at getting paid even a paltry amount for his labor and wouldn't haggle with the guy, and the Agent seems like a run-of-the-mill GMH bastard that just got free obsidian from someone they didn't even have on the roster.

To pick on another example provided above about a hypothetical player:

They want to play a character that isn't involved IN a merchant house, but gets to also do merchant house type stuff as an indie, being involved with those merchant houses.
They want to be a hunter, but they don't want to get involved in the city-based plots or GMH-based drama.
They want to be indies but also not really be indies and not join a GMH.

So they want to play a unicorn.  

I'm usually one to say "play what you want to play, where you want to play it, provided it fits the game/documentation," but when what they want to play is such a specific type of role, I have to question whether they could just deal with what is actually available.  They don't like GMH drama (whatever that is)?  Don't play in the GMH instead of expecting it to change to suit what you want.  They want to be a hunter and don't want to get involved in city-based plots or GMH-based drama? I guess play a solo hunter role outside of Red Storm, no one will bother you.  They want to be an indie?  Be an indie.  They want to not be an indie?  There are several options (see:  clanned roles).  You want to do both, there are still maybe a couple of options (see:  partisanship, or just plain out bugging x or y leader to let you do whatever without being on the explicit above the board payroll).

They don't like those options, and they are an actual player and not a hypothetical player, well, then there's something else going on here...and maybe that should be discussed instead.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Harmless on July 11, 2014, 11:31:25 AM
The benefits of joining a clan are the roleplaying and plot perks, the guarded storage, the promise of future promotions, and a little extra coin as a bonus. Altogether a great package, the pay is fine as is.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 11, 2014, 12:15:33 PM
Yep, I see your point. Can't argue with any of that, myself. Guess I have to admit part of the attraction to such roles is the need to be able to adapt to ever-present dangers and attempt to thwart them at any cost, up to and including, heaven forbid, actually accepting that, hey, this over here is something I -can't- do, but if I compromise on this, despite my compulsion otherwise, I might get away with it. Sometimes you get screwed, just how it is. Sometimes you screw someone else and get away with it, sometimes you don't. A cautious approach respectful of the degree of potential danger can go a long way toward getting away with it. Too much coffee, imma shaddup now.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2014, 02:30:24 PM
I've been thinking about it. I like the idea of GMHs only hiring skilled hunters, but generally doing business with a Hunter's Byn. It would pool hunters, allow them to be independant but also together, and give them a resume if they decided that they wanted those life-term benefits such as contant pay, deep discounts or free merchandise, and status, each GMH might provide. It resembles what seems to be happening in the North with the Noble Houses, where they have moved to a patron systems.

I don't know. I like the idea, but at the same time, I like the idea of the loyal might each GMH employs, too. I might need to think on it longer.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: QuillDipper on July 11, 2014, 02:37:42 PM
Pool hunters sounds kind of cool. GMHs could release broad contracts for specific huntables and such, give it an element of competition with the other 'indies'.

I'd say theres a place for lifesworn and loyal hunters, though. It'd make sense if clan pay for loyal hunters got a decent boost, while these indepenedant pooled ones got paid a heavy portion less. The clanned ones would need a constant source of income (no by-the-need hunting like the indies would have, just general bounties for items and coded pay), and they'd keep all the benefits you'd expect of a clan.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2014, 02:41:16 PM
Yeh, I need to think about it, but I kind of think the idea has merit. It's how it is implemented and how it interacts with the world at large that needs to be smoothed out. You don't want the hunters having a compound and such, for instance ... then it's like the Byn, and 'leaders' feel the need to put restrictions on you and such ... killing the idea of being an independant in a coalition, not a company, of hunters.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: QuillDipper on July 11, 2014, 02:44:23 PM
You couldn't stuff them in a compound, I think. The idea behind it is they're flat on their ass alone. It should technically be like the Tribal Levies - You're vaguely part of this larger organization as a reserve. You lack the benefits of being a full member but you still retain your independence and ability to do whatever the hell you want.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 11, 2014, 02:50:06 PM
The levies are awesome. I secretly badly wish the south would make one, and also boast a few game years in that the north copied their awesome idea.

Idea: big fucking chests filled with shit for clannies that have graduated their recruit year and are staying in, with stuff that they may WEAR and USE, not sell or give away. Once they are done wearing them, they have to put it back.

Be a little weird if all three merchant houses did this but I could say one or two clan leaders doing this every so often. Perks, perks, perks. Shiny, silky, pretty, kryl armor badass. Indies should be fucking jealous.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2014, 03:22:22 PM
It could be a token, or a tattoo, that all of the Hunters in the coalition wore - the hunter pays a fee to belong to that coalition, basically entitling you to do work for the GMHs. Hunters who weren't in that coalition would have to do work with either GMH agents who didn't care, or other indies. A member of that coalition could invite someone else also in the coalition to hunt with them, and get a split of the proceeds, or hunt with a indie, who would just be along for the ride. Basically all the tat or token would give you is standing in the coalition, and you would have to build your own rep.

GMHs would stop hiring newb hunters, and point them at the coalition, but would still be open to hiring hunters that impressed them enough. Perks for being an actual clanned GMH hunter would be the free or reduced price goods you were able to recieve, steady pay, food and water, storage, and the House plots, etc.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 11, 2014, 03:24:21 PM
This all sounds kind of complicated and unnecessary?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 11, 2014, 04:05:41 PM
1. Armageddon is complicated and unneccessary. The point is moot.

2. The notion of a hunter's pool is along the same lines as the levies. The levy members are obligated to serve the North if/when the time comes, but otherwise they're free to come and go, do their thing, make money or not, work together, etc. etc. A hunter's pool would be obligated to serve Salarr and/or Kadius if/when the time comes, but otherwise they're free to come and go, do their thing, make money or not, etc. etc. While they are members of the pool, they *cannot* also be members of Salarr or Kadius. If they want to be members of Salarr or Kadius, they'd still have to request entry, be accepted, and then they're no longer members of the pool - they're employees of a GMH.

They wouldn't need a clan compound, or food/water, etc. However, maybe they might have reduced costs for food/water at specific shops in the specific cities. They'd still need to make use of their haggle skill, if they have it, to *sell* anything at a better price, or buy anything other than that specific place's food/water at a better price. Perhaps also pool members would be entitled to reduced prices on low-end gear from Salarr, and low-end accessories from Kadius (think empty bags, cure tablets, mul mix, packs and satchels of various non-silk types, sandcloth clothing, etc.) The GMH PC traders/merchants would offer pool members those discounts, and of course they could offer additional discounts for "jobs well done" as they see fit.

They'd get paid a stipend (we're talking something like 100 sids per RL week) to cover stable fees and waterskin refills, and there could be a pay scale for actual work performed (maybe a minimum of 50 sids per job, maximum of 500 sids per job). Since they're not employees and only members of a pool, anything they bring in that the task doesn't require, is for the pool member to keep, use, give, trade, or sell as they please.

And again - if they choose to eventually become an employee of the GMH, they'd go through the same process they go through now. EXCEPT - they would have already proven themselves useful and worthy, because they'd already been in the pool.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 11, 2014, 04:16:53 PM
This is veering a little OT, but I'd really rather see staff-supported antagonists and player initiative than a bunch of effort devoted to what is basically a hunter and grebber's union. Aren't we supposed to be making life harder for indies, not adding to the easy street life? The money issue for indies isn't that big of an issue, because indies have a far higher cost output than clannies - but if they also had food/water/a place to stay that would just get ridiculous. Lower the cost of booze and toss clannies a few more bones and perks, sure.. but indies can suck it. You want perks, join a GMH, don't whine about how you should be getting perks for your grebbing.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 11, 2014, 04:30:07 PM
It seems like a localized partisanship-style thing would work better.  Though...only if needed or necessary.  So far, I haven't seen a decent argument for why it is needed or necessary.

On an unrelated note (and more related to the thread), clan pay and perks are things we've been looking at.  By the time we are done, in general, one should expect that nobles and noble houses get the most money, GMH next with militia coming in on the middle to lower end of that, T'zai Byn, then templars.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 11, 2014, 04:40:14 PM
I like that.

It was weird in the past to run into situations where certain noble houses had access to really very little money.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2014, 04:43:48 PM
The need as I see it would be filling hunter roles in GMH houses while avoiding a need for actually being clanned. Much like the merchants token in Allanak, the marking would be about being part of a collective that the GMHs would support with patronage, as well as being a breeding ground for GMHs to recruit from for the coveted roles of House Hunters.

Salarr wouldn't have to wait for thier best hunters to evolve the skills to do stuff, while Kadius could use the same hunters to get thier gems from the Deep Sea. It would be a loosely organized coalition that would known to work collectively for the GMHs, while not being mercenaries like the Byn.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 11, 2014, 04:46:54 PM
The need as I see it would be filling hunter roles in GMH houses while avoiding a need for actually being clanned.

Seems like a want, not a need.  A want to do stuff for GMHs without being in the clan.  Get over it, indies.  You suck.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 11, 2014, 04:50:26 PM
Hooray! More coins for clanned people. Or I hope it's more, he just said, they're looking at it... could be cuts.

And I agree with 7DV there... but my opinion means squat, so... plus, a coalition of hunters working for GMHs would hurt indie merchants something awful (even more than GMHs and such already do), so, maybe not so good for anyone non-GMH, or that wishes to use a non-GMH merchant, unless the coalition also took contracts from non-GMH sources, I don't know... complicated.

EDIT: Yeah, don't make a coalition, indie merchants would never again have materials for anything, except for the oddball weirdo hunters with beef with the hunter's union.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 11, 2014, 05:52:00 PM
This is veering a little OT, but I'd really rather see staff-supported antagonists and player initiative than a bunch of effort devoted to what is basically a hunter and grebber's union. Aren't we supposed to be making life harder for indies, not adding to the easy street life? The money issue for indies isn't that big of an issue, because indies have a far higher cost output than clannies - but if they also had food/water/a place to stay that would just get ridiculous. Lower the cost of booze and toss clannies a few more bones and perks, sure.. but indies can suck it. You want perks, join a GMH, don't whine about how you should be getting perks for your grebbing.

I wasn't really even considering the convenience for the hunter/grebber player. I was thinking more of a convenience for the GMHs. So often, you'll see one of the two houses dominate the market of hunters/grebbers, while the other one has just one hunter, no crafters, and that hunter sits there frustrated because he can't go hunting alone and no one else in his clan is around. And then a month later, he dies off, so does half the OTHER GMH's crew, and they all switch places. In other words, one always has all the hunters, and the other always has people who are frustrated.

It'd be more convenient for BOTH sides, GMH and hunters, if there existed a pool the GMHs could draw from *IN ADDITION TO THEIR EXISTING EXPERIENCED AND POSSIBLY VERY LIMITED IN NUMBER CREW*.

Nyr, no there is no need or necessity for this. But as I said - there's no need or necessity for Armageddon either. This has nothing to with need or necessity. It's presented as a possible solution to what is an actual (and not merely perceived) issue.

The issue: It is common for players to congregate to one or another GMH, leaving the other in the dust. ICly, that makes no sense. Therefore, it would be useful (not needed or necessary, but useful) to have a solution that would allow both GMHs to have access to a cooperative of hunters who serve only them as a cooperative.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2014, 05:58:56 PM
Yes, it's the issues that Liz brings to bear that fuel the interest, at least OOCly, for such a thing. Obviously, it would be ICly better to maintain a cadre of House-only Hunters, and I'm just fine with that - it's the flip-side of having a certain player population and only so many players to fill many roles that causes one to speculate about possible solutions. In this case, a Hunters' Coalition.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 11, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
I do dislike the times when House Kadius appears to run the world and inevitably gains some political leverage just because they have twelve pcs and four leader/subleader ones... agreeing now with Hunter's Union.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 11, 2014, 07:18:40 PM
I don't know if i like the idea of a pool of hunters. The houses already buy raw good from independents. If independents want to work without belonging to the house, they can make their own group, rent a warehouse,  and sell the raw good to the houses.

Right now there is salarr north, and south, and then kadius north and south. These guys haven't really operated like the byn or even kurac. Within these two clans it feels like north and south are two separate entities. At any one time, one side or the other in either clan is suffering too. Again not only do they compete with each other for the same type of players but often there are other houses/clans looking for a hunter or two to work for them as well so they compete with them for players too.

With the war going on, with the pressure of neutrality from either city state, its almost a perfect time for a merger in order to bring resources together. 'Kadius Salarr' can be born. Sure they make deadly bows and swords, but they also make silk dresses and perfume. The hunters would be free-ranging bringing good, traveling as they see fit in order to bring what they can find or they can operate from one location as well.  Merchants, crafters, agents would be more localized to the area most of the time, sending out calls to the hunters from wherever they might be to bring them specific goods. Guards, aides or whatever else they feel like hiring would stay with them to do their thing.

The pros of this would be less competition for the same kind of player. More like minded players being lumped together increasing interaction, rp and plots. I feel like making it a larger more robust clan will make it easier to start more epic plots.  There is a war going on, their hunters and employees are the best source for information, spying, even assassination on the other sides especially since they can travel from one city state to another with greater easy then anyone else right now. There should be pressure, bribes, and backlashes from both city states not only on the over all clan but individuals themselves.


My idea is to increase interaction, rp and overall epic plots, not really sure if a pool of non-loyal group of semi affiliated hunters can really achieve the same thing.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 11, 2014, 08:15:52 PM
The geek in me is screaming, "No, I'm going to kill you," but to be honest this is a good idea, which staff isn't going to do in favor of closing one of those two houses down.

I wonder if they will. I'm sort of guessing they won't until player spreadout is worse, but it honestly seems like its getting there lately.

The reason I say that is because the upper, never-player members of the GMH families would skip the preliminaries of trying to negotiate over who is going to screw who over worse and start killing each other the moment anyone even mentions this shit behind closed doors. It'd be pandemonium.

I like it. It should try to happen.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 11, 2014, 08:23:18 PM
As a player who has played a few GMH leaders and leaders in general, pooled employees as a policy is probably the worst idea I've heard in a while. It'd just faction out and be the same as it is currently. Nothing would change. It doesn't fit the game world documentation.

There are organizations that take conscripts and in the case of the levies, well... that's different. Partisanship exists. That's similar. Making GMH a bunch of partisans is just silly. Most folks don't lifeswear anyway, so they're welcome to rotate through the different GMH houses as they please after 1-2 years of service.

I feel like this all stems from the "entitlement" of the little man. "I should get to have fun on my terms all the time". "I should get these perks because I'm awesome and shouldn't have to follow rules". Whelp, if that's you, then don't join a GMH. And if you don't join a GMH, don't be surprised if you get stomped for being successful and trying to compete with them. This is how monopolies work and it fits right within the game world.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 11, 2014, 08:23:41 PM
I don't like the pool idea myself. You'd be basically giving those two clans even less to do. Having played a clan leader, sometimes it's nice to have some tasks to get done and fill in the gaps rather than having to invent plotz and rp for everyone. With the pool, why hire hunters? So everyone in the clan is just a vending machine now?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 11, 2014, 08:31:48 PM
I'll also add that family leadership within the GMH, whether or not you realize it, is meant to be there for cultural representation. GMH family will build their crew and develop their minions into loyalists who "drink the kool-aid", for that fateful day when they must ask their minions to do something horrible in the name of the family business. GMH has a "culture" and that culture is: cutthroat business. You don't give the most important tasks to amos saltgrebber random indie hunter.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 11, 2014, 08:44:44 PM
IsFriday, you are one of the people who should understand from the GMH's side of things what I'm talking about. I'll try to be clearer:

There are 10 PCs who are hunters, who have at least a passing interest in being hunters for either Kadius or Salarr. Might be new players, might be veteran players, might be a little of both.

The Salarr recruiting PC can only log in 4 hours per week. During peak time, but only 4 hours. The Kadian recruiting PC can log in 2 hours every single day, during peak time.

Salarr nabs eight of those hunters, three are new players.
Kadius gets two. One of them is a new player.

Kadius's new player doesn't understand the seriousness of "don't leave the gates without an officer in your first recruiting month of employment with the House" and promptly dies to a scrab in his fifth hour of play, leaving Kadius with one PC.

Salarr's new players have more of a chance to actually meet up with the other Salarris, so they'll only lose one of those new players, leaving the clan strong with 7 members - two of whom are new, but having plenty of interaction with the other clanned players.

Kadius's hunting crew flounders - since there's only one of them, and the recruiting PC isn't around for another 3 RL days.
Salarr's unit is thriving - except the warehouse can't store any more hides and their crafters can't keep up with the massive amount of supply coming in. So the hunters are ordered to stop hunting. There just isn't any room for anything in the compound anymore, codedly.

Kadius needs fresh meat but can't get any, because Salarr already has it, and the one who just died is now playing a warrior in the Legion, and the other dead recruit in Salarr is now a half-elven rinthi assassin/thug.

If there was a pool -

The recruiting PC from Kadius could go to the pool, announce that he needs two hunters to help his employee collect 2 duskhorn horns, a dozen amethysts, and a pouch of various herbs in the next half-month. The three make arrangements and head out. If one's lost, there's a replacement standing by in the pool.

Meanwhile, Salarr has the recruiting PC, one lifesworn Second Hunter, and two full hunters. They don't need eight hunters, because - there's a pool. Those four can handle most of the stuff needing to get done, and any time they need more bulk they can draw from the pool. And when the bulk-work is over, they revert back to the four. Less salary paid out, less food and water to supply to the employees, more stuff for fewer people to do, giving them more of a chance to make an impact than when the playerbase of that one clan was so diluted with people who really weren't needed.

This is how I see the pool. Not as a convenience for independents to not be clanned and still be in a clan. But rather for GMHs to not have to deal with the all-or-nothing OOC-created mess that they often have to deal with ICly.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2014, 08:58:35 PM
Yeah. I like what Lizzie is saying. However in the game world, a merger would obviously make more sense. There's both good and bad to both ideas and I'm not necessarily supporting either idea. I'm just rambling.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 11, 2014, 09:22:37 PM
Yeah. I like what Lizzie is saying. However in the game world, a merger would obviously make more sense. There's both good and bad to both ideas and I'm not necessarily supporting either idea. I'm just rambling.

Oh I'm totally up for a merger, but I'm looking more at the "this is the kind of stuff the players have already been doing, we could just make it more staff-supported" aspect. Players have been, and are, already forming "collectives" from which the two main GMHs draw some of the raw materials. They -should- be getting them exclusively from their hunters, but they don't always have hunters available. That is WHY the collective makes sense. The two reasons: 1) They already exist unofficially and 2) GMHs should never have to draw from non-GMH-sanctioned people for most raw materials.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 11, 2014, 09:28:28 PM
I think part of the fun for pc leaders is figuring out who they will and will not do business with and why. In my opinion, who is and is not a sanctioned resource is not really something to be decided on the boards.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 11, 2014, 09:38:51 PM
I think part of the fun for pc leaders is figuring out who they will and will not do business with and why. In my opinion, who is and is not a sanctioned resource is not really something to be decided on the boards.

Erm, a GMH PC leader having to get a non-GMH employee to chop logs for him because he is out of PC hunters and the VNPC hunters can't bring in coded logs, is not something that should be happening IC. It's not an IC issue. It's an OOC issue, that is causing IC problems. That's why some of us are considering solutions on the board.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 11, 2014, 10:19:08 PM
I never saw any particular Corporal or Sergeant Hunter crew leader in GMH to represent the whole org. They are just a team amongst many that exist virtually. I don't see it as a problem except an IC one to recruit more hunters, because it's that leader's team that is failing, not the GMH as a whole.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 11, 2014, 10:24:30 PM
I agree with IsFriday that this seems like one of those issues that can be worked around entirely IC. Poach hunters from other companies with threats or bribes. Delegate other people to do the interviewing/searching if you have trouble logging in the time you need to find proper employees. If there's someone independent that's able to go get you logs, force him into your service by kidnapping their mate.

How is this problem any different from any other playtimes/lack of players issues? I like the idea of merges, consolidation, but not focused so specifically on hunters. That seems more like trying to alleviate the symptoms than cure the disease.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 12, 2014, 07:33:27 AM
This is a relative non-problem based on my experience.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 12, 2014, 08:19:49 AM
Well it would be a merger of the entire two organizations. It wouldn't be closing the clan so much as bringing its crafters, hunters and sponsored roles under one estate instead of two. You could still have crafters that specialize in making clothing while, some making weapons. I suspect merchants would now have access to selling both weapons and luxury goods. Everything kadus does would still happen, and everything salarr does would still happen, it would just be happening in one estate.

Some compromises would have to be found, probably ICly but still they are similar enough that they would merge without much hassle. There wouldn't even be much coding to do, ICly one estate is where all the important people would go stay (virtual people), and the other estate (the better/bigger estate in each citystate) would be used for the low level merchants, crafters agents as training facility(PC). Again the only difference would be everyone is under the same roof, and merchants would be selling both inventories from both kadius and salarr instead of just one.

In my ideas the amount of sponsored roles and merchants stay the same as if there were two clans. Just they are given more variety to sell, sponsored roles would probably find a larger amount of people wanting to join. My only fear would be that by consolidating the two clans, staff would also reduce the amount of sponsored roles and the number of people available to sell to the numbers of one clan. This is a merger so I would love to see the number of sponsored roles and leadership around reflect the two large organization coming together.

If this had happened in the past, every cool plot that occurred to kadius or salarr would have been affecting all the players that enjoy the same type of roles they offer these two clans offer. In terms of plot, I just feel you can't focus on one house's group of hunters without making the other group of hunters in another house feel left out, the same with politics. As I've said, i know they have different themes but they are still similar enough in the type of players/roles they attract that if these two houses merge the plots from both staff and players would just skyrocket.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 12, 2014, 10:02:42 AM
Ten years or so back a certain Kuraci leader (maybe a visonary, maybe a con man, maybe both) tried to bring the merchant houses together to form an alliance.  IIRC When they got together to discuss the idea, someone tried to kill someone else for some stupid personal reason and the whole thing fell apart.  Sometimes putting aside personal issues can be hard.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 12, 2014, 10:37:45 AM
One of the reasons I would not suggest something such as kurac merging with salarr or kadius is because if you look at kurac its in an extreme unique position. If we look at the militia, the byn, and kurac...all these three clans attract soldier type roles. However in each of these clans, structure,location, travel, benefits and more importantly the plots affecting these clans are so completely unique to them that players going into them are seeking unique roles/experiences despite playing soldiers.

I've always felt that the same plot/events that occur in salarr could easily affect kadius too, and vise versa. I cannot say the same thing about kurac and anyone else. Even if there were 12 hunters in both clans, I'd still argue for a merger because at their core they basically do the same thing, hire hunters, hire crafters, hire merchants, make stuff and sell it to both city states. So why not double up the fun, with both people and plots with a merger?

So at this point someone might be asking themselves, if this is the case, why not change up the two clans so they are as unique to each other as kurac is to every other clan. Well my only argument to that would be that these two clans current work. They work really well and they are fun when they have people in them.   The way they operate also makes a lot of sense in the IC world and I think coming together would make them a much more awesome clan which would preserve their history, themes and structures then changing either one at this point which would alienate the people that have come to enjoy them over the years.

Well...I've certainly derailed this thread enough. Sorry about that :(
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 12, 2014, 01:12:15 PM
There's not any IC reason for a merger.  The only thing brought up is that at times, one of two GMH clans may have more people than the other.  That's hardly a reason to suggest a merger.  That's also not a good reason for this pool.

Pool:  aims to fix a problem that largely doesn't exist, and when it does, it is the result of IC action and can be fixed by IC action (poach/kill/aggressive recruiting/ignoring), and could probably be eased by a few minor tweaks to documentation for the lower ends of those two clans.

merger:  aims to fix a problem that (again) largely doesn't exist...with a solution that flies in the face of the IC world, because "merger"

For that matter, there remains a static need for Salarr and Kadian goods at the top that can (or will) be filled regardless of the amount of PCs in the lower reaches of the clans, given the existence of item order requests that merchant PCs in those clans file.  In large part I think there may be an expectation in some quarters (I've thought this before, too) that every clan should have a ton of players in it.  In reality, only a few clans can actively support a certain range of player numbers because there's simply not enough for them to do.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 12, 2014, 02:19:29 PM
There's not any IC reason for a merger.  The only thing brought up is that at times, one of two GMH clans may have more people than the other.  That's hardly a reason to suggest a merger.  That's also not a good reason for this pool.

Pool:  aims to fix a problem that largely doesn't exist, and when it does, it is the result of IC action and can be fixed by IC action (poach/kill/aggressive recruiting/ignoring), and could probably be eased by a few minor tweaks to documentation for the lower ends of those two clans.

merger:  aims to fix a problem that (again) largely doesn't exist...with a solution that flies in the face of the IC world, because "merger"

For that matter, there remains a static need for Salarr and Kadian goods at the top that can (or will) be filled regardless of the amount of PCs in the lower reaches of the clans, given the existence of item order requests that merchant PCs in those clans file.  In large part I think there may be an expectation in some quarters (I've thought this before, too) that every clan should have a ton of players in it.  In reality, only a few clans can actively support a certain range of player numbers because there's simply not enough for them to do.

I don't know,ICly merchant houses that banding together compliment each others strengths, reducing their weaknesses while also reducing overhead costs by sharing resources seems like a great way to maximize profits.  Merchant houses seem to care most about profits.   Not to mention they'd expand their collective political reach and power all over the known. A combined trade union could work if they could work together, but internal politics would be their greatest challenge.  All those people working together in groups with their own agendas is sure to cause some conflict.

Edited to add:
OOCly they'd compete less for players and would be able to maintain a more consistent presence in the game world.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 12, 2014, 02:40:48 PM
There's not any IC reason for a merger.  The only thing brought up is that at times, one of two GMH clans may have more people than the other.  That's hardly a reason to suggest a merger.  That's also not a good reason for this pool.

Pool:  aims to fix a problem that largely doesn't exist, and when it does, it is the result of IC action and can be fixed by IC action (poach/kill/aggressive recruiting/ignoring), and could probably be eased by a few minor tweaks to documentation for the lower ends of those two clans.

merger:  aims to fix a problem that (again) largely doesn't exist...with a solution that flies in the face of the IC world, because "merger"

For that matter, there remains a static need for Salarr and Kadian goods at the top that can (or will) be filled regardless of the amount of PCs in the lower reaches of the clans, given the existence of item order requests that merchant PCs in those clans file.  In large part I think there may be an expectation in some quarters (I've thought this before, too) that every clan should have a ton of players in it.  In reality, only a few clans can actively support a certain range of player numbers because there's simply not enough for them to do.

Am I reading too much into it, or could this be implying a possible tweak to the racial allowances for these clans?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 12, 2014, 08:25:57 PM
God help me, I'm with Nyr on this. There goes my street cred. Wait...

This all sounds kind of complicated and unnecessary?

So yeah as I was saying, I'm with Delirium on this!

Having been on both sides of this (non)issue in the past, I'm not sure there's anything to solve here.

If and when a GMH has need of goods and can't support those needs themselves, there's nothing to stop them from offering contract work to indies (be they lone rangers or organized groups). There's no written law in any GMH that specifically states they aren't permitted to offer contract work. One GMH offers contracts as a matter of policy in fact, while the other two have always offered contracts to outside hunters when they had needs they couldn't deal with in-House. Sometimes those contracts are under the table, sure, but they still happen all the time. Could this be made clearer in the documentation of those two GMH's that will remain unnamed? Sure, but only in the spirit of protocol. In practice it's always happened. I bet you good 'sid it's happening right now.

What does this mean for a GMH? If you don't have enough hunters, either be a better/cooler leader than your competition or otherwise feel free to outsource your needs. Yes, that means you're actually going to be paying for materials (*gasp*), but then again it's more or less the same coin than you'd be spending on the hunters you don't have. I imagine GMH staff won't have issue with such coin coming the clan account for contracts, since a) it means there's an actual need of these materials for pending orders  that can't be otherwise filled and b) as already stated, they're saving coin that would otherwise have gone to hunters. And this in turn helps indies along by providing them with funding, and more important interaction, which keeps them alive and interested. And that means when you need 10 more thingamabobs, they might still be around and available to help. Can't find an indie to work with, don't know of one, or know anyone else that knows of one? Nothing a simple tavern post can't fix, honest. Once "it is known" you're offering contract work, you'll have hunters and grebbers coming out of the woodwork.

What does that mean for the lone indies? For one, you don't suck anywhere near as much as Nyr would have you believe. Really, he's just being mean. You have options, but you still need to be smart about it. Don't expect anyone to come flocking to you because you have a rep as a hunter or grebber, and definitely don't expect them to roll out the red carpet for you. They're probably not happy to have to come to you, and sometimes that's going to show. Other times it's going to show a lot. Either suck it up, or... well, that's your only option really if you want to do business with them. And without the backing of a group, you've got to work twice as hard to keep your clients pleased.

What does this mean for indie groups and their leaders? You're not the first or last, understand that. Indie hunting groups rise and fall constantly, and are hinged on two things... the ability and charisma of their leadership and a need for their services. Unlike a GMH where staff can keep putting out requests until they get a half-way competent applicant, an indie group usually gets one, maybe two at best, shots at it. If the leader can't keep its members organized, happy, and alive, the group won't last. Also, if there's no demand for the services of the group, they won't last either. Both of those should be common sense. In my experience such groups will form when there's a void to fill (such as a GMH not having enough hunters) and will dissipate when either its leadership dies or there's no longer a need for them to exist. And that's probably as it should be.

The pool idea? It happens in part already, when there's a need for it to happen. I don't think it needs any real formality or rules placed on it though, and is best left organically formed IC as it has so far.

The merger idea? For once I think Nyr was too gentle. The idea is simply ridiculous... Mergers don't happen in a cut-throat world like Zalanthas. Hostile take-overs? Sure. But not mergers. Beyond the IC silliness of the idea, it would also fix a very minor problem that already has other solutions, and create a ton of far more serious new problems. And in the end the game would have suffered the loss of whatever the clans involved brought to the table in terms of unique flavor and diversity.

I'd share more, but I think it's a non-issue to begin so... I've probably said too much already.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 12, 2014, 09:24:00 PM
The merger idea? For once I think Nyr was too gentle. The idea is simply ridiculous... Mergers don't happen in a cut-throat world like Zalanthas. Hostile take-overs? Sure. But not mergers. Beyond the IC silliness of the idea, it would also fix a very minor problem that already has other solutions, and create a ton of far more serious new problems. And in the end the game would have suffered the loss of whatever the clans involved brought to the table in terms of unique flavor and diversity.

I'd be interested to hear your reasons for calling it silly and ridiculous.  While there's no problem to fix, I think it'd be plausible and entirely within the realm of possibility if there were an IC desire to peruse something like this.  ICly the benefits are many and the drawbacks are few.  Not that it'll ever happen, staff are overworked as it is and this would be a huge undertaking, but to experience this level of change in game would be something on the level of destroying Tuluk, the Naki invasion of Tuluk and the resulting rebellion and rebuilding of Tuluk.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 12, 2014, 09:45:59 PM
First of all two different clans or organization coming together is not so strange lately IC if you ask me. The reasons for their 'merger' for lack of better word, or hostile take over is pretty much the same reason for most things in the game happen at all.  Someone thought it would be fun OOCly to do, achieve and make the game better and more fun. I mean if everyone single person including staff sudden liked an idea, i'm sure some ic reasoning would occur almost out of the blue. Firestorm anyone?  Anyways point is I'm not too fixated with ic reasoning, but at the end of the day I do think there is already precedence for it....and even if you really believe there isn't, well there is always a first time for everything.

I don't think being in a clan that feels dead is a good thing especially when you could have just easily joined another very similar one that has a lot more people in it. However your character is stuck where they are for a while or need to store, just seems like a bit of a waste. Truthfully even if there were 12 people in one clan and other 12 in the other, I'd probably still suggest the idea, again the more the merrier especially in these two clans. This isn't always the case though because again the clans compete for people looking for similar roles/experiences. So why have them compete at all? It might not be a problem or something even needing a fix but i still think it might be a fun worthwhile improvement . The idea that joining these two clans would lose any flavor is bogus, since again they are similar enough in structure and what they do that they can pretty much keep all their awesomeness despite being all under one roof. The thought that bringing them together would make more problems is a vague statement at best, which I don't think is true.

All that said,  kadius and salarr are still my favorite clans to join.  I don't think they are broken, bad off or anything. I just love them when they are full of people but then again every clan is that way. Changing something doesn't always turn out how you expect it and no guarantee it comes out better once you are done so probably best to just keep them as they are. :)
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 13, 2014, 07:11:26 AM
Well, clearly not everyone is on the same page as to how plausible or realistic a merger of this sort would be. My sentiments, since you asked, are based on the following...

There's no precedent for the concept of a corporate merger in Zalanthas, period. Clans have been taken over by other clans, by force of various types, but never have two clans sat down, set their differences aside and engaged in peaceful negotiations as to how they might be better as a team by letting go their identity; by erasing their family names or relinquishing assets that have been fought over and won after hundreds of years of struggle. The setting that a merger would require just isn't present in the culture of Zalanthas. If a clan wants what another clan has, and is in a position to do something about it, they obliterate them and take over their assets as their own. Unlike mergers, hostile take-overs do have precedent in both past and recent times, and both amongst Noble and Merchant Houses.

There is absolutely nothing that a GMH would gain by merging with another from an IC perspective. It would be a loss for either one, not a gain. Each GMH has its own monopoly, and thus has no market share to compete over that might bring them more profit if they stopped competing for it. They each have their own holdings in most cities and would have very little gain in terms of land assets. They'd also have no benefit from downsizing, since each has very different needs from the next and pretty much all employees would have to be retained. So no benefit there either. Remind me why anyone felt this was plausible IC?

If it were to happen, it would be entirely for OOC reasons, and would by flying in the face of everything IC. And while changes can often happen for OOC reasons and have weak IC justifications, they usually happen when there's a damn serious need for it OOC. I'm sorry but having a couple more players to hunt with when someone decides to play in a GMH doesn't feel like the earth-shattering reason a change like this would need to justify it.

I get that it can suck sometimes when a clan isn't absolutely hopping, but it happens. The game itself can suck when not a lot of players are on. It happens. Get over it. It's not a permanent situation, never has been. Looking to destroy one or two clans in a fashion that completely defies IC logic over this issue is like calling the White House and asking for a nuclear tactical strike because you saw a roach. In your neighbour's kitchen. Across the street. When you were a child, ten years ago.

So yes. Forgive me, but I find the idea silly and ridiculous, just as I find silly and ridiculous the length at which it's been discussed already. But it's the GDB, and we can go on for days over which should be spread first, peanutbutter or jelly. So I shouldn't be surprised.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 13, 2014, 07:14:46 AM
Ouroboros is really good at explaining my thoughts on most topics better than I am
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 13, 2014, 07:57:58 AM
For those of you that were playing back then, did the Byn feel unnecessary when GMHs all had their own guard/military PC units?
This sounds like it might evolve into something like that if tried in game.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 13, 2014, 08:18:47 AM
There is precedence, but not for a merger in the sense you're referring, Ouroboros. More like a joint venture, the creation of a conglomerate cooperative. So there would be the corporation: The GMH Houses. There would be subsidiaries: Salarr, Nenyuk, Kadius, Kurac. Each would continue to exist as their own families and entities with their own specialties, but they would be clanned members of the Cooperative.

They would strive toward the same end, as a cooperative: For the GMHs to become the Ruling Entities of the Known. This isn't even anything novel or new in Armageddon. Some of us have actually attempted to do this ICly in the past with our GMH-clanned sponsored and/or promoted ranked roles. Usually it would fall apart because one PC couldn't ever log in when the others were logged in to even get a discussion going. Or there would be a discussion started, and then one of the key people would get killed/stored.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 13, 2014, 09:38:09 AM
I'm still waiting to hear about all these amazing IC benefits this would bring to the table for GMH's, and so far I've only heard IC justifications for perceived OOC benefits of minor (in my opinion) worth. If someone really wants to pitch this as sound from an IC stand-point, I'd like them to do the math.

Edit: Also two things. One, I didn't use the term merger, others did. If those that used it meant something other than a merger, then they probably shouldn't have labeled it as such. Two, precedence by definition means something has happened before. Unless I'm off my mark, you're referring to things that have been attempted, not actually have happened. If that's the case, there is no precedence. Just players who have tried something and failed for various reasons. At the end of the day you can't be sure that if all else worked out it would have happened to begin with, since without staff's approval all attempts are moot. Staff just tends to be generous sometimes and lets players ride out improbable scenarios just to be nice and for the sake of roleplay freedom. If they honestly backed every PC endeavor they've let players run with, the world would look very different.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 13, 2014, 10:38:12 AM
Moving back to clan pay.

If clan play is being looked at then I think the change should allow the players within clans to afford food, water, moderately sized apartments, and gear from the shops easily. In short, they would be doing rather well for themselves. However at the same time I think the good stuff salarr, kadius and kurac (except maybe basic spice) should be raised a very significant amount. You can afford that decent set of armor, but if you want the uber armor of death that will hopefully poke carru in the eyes when they charge you, you'll probably need to do something more then just do your job. You will either need to be corrupt, take bribes, or just earn bonuses. Heck maybe stab someone who owns that armor so you can get it for yourself. Everyone in a clan should be able to afford the basics and stuff sold in shops easily but they still shouldn't feel filthy rich.

As for independents, current jobs need to be changed to give the necessities of life. Instead of coin they should just really pay in food and water, and instead of 100 or 200 sid a bag of salt perhaps just enough additional coins to cover stabling fees. The very basics to keep a character going until they level up other skills and find something more profitable to do. This is an issue of playability vs realism. It should be easy for players to survive, as in keep their characters fed and watered but it shouldn't be easy for them to become filthy rich.Again you want food and water, join the levies, you need stabling fees, dig clay.   Even if this changes, some players will eventually become rich anyways. I think the coins coming from easy to kill prey such as chitin from skeet need to be lowered a tad to reflect how easy they are to kill but I mean ranger/crafter and merchant classes are built to be rich characters. I think that is fine. However, unless you have backing from a clan, noble or templar I think the bank should be taking 10% of whatever coins are in your account every month.

If you are poor and have 100 coins that would only be 10 coins a month but as you get richer it will hurt more. Newbie accounts should be exempt for the first month or two of playing. The need for coins will always be there thus fueling, corruption,theft and murder even for independents who might have a couple thousand in the bank. I don't think these ideas are new or even mine, I'm mostly repeating what other people have thought up over the years. I just think they are good ideas that should be considered when adjusting clan play. It still feels awfully hard to bribe someone at the moment. I feel its harder then it should be, mostly because the incentives to take coins aren't there after a while.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 13, 2014, 11:09:56 AM
I'm still waiting to hear about all these amazing IC benefits this would bring to the table for GMH's, and so far I've only heard IC justifications for perceived OOC benefits of minor (in my opinion) worth. If someone really wants to pitch this as sound from an IC stand-point, I'd like them to do the math.

IC justifications for perceived OOC benefits is basically why a lot of things happen in the game. Lately, a lot of the things that have changed and happened have had the OOC benefit of making the world more enjoyable for the player-base. Not to say there are no IC consequences for IC action but whether it be war suddenly brewing or a tavern closing down, its all basically for the same OOC reasons, the justifications come afterwards.   It is all the reasoning you need anyways since you can come up with many really good reasons for things happening IC that would still make sense. Its a fiction setting after all, so it just takes some creativity. Whether those benefits are minor or not, are indeed just an opinion.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 13, 2014, 11:22:20 AM
If we're back to discussing the original topic, which actually stated there was no major issue with clan pay to begin with except where recreational drinking was concerned, then...

Surprise, but I don't think there's much to discuss there either. Staff has already stated they're in the process of adjusting the pay of clans, and already have in some cases, so clan pay is addressed.

If anyone is looking for balance in this game though, you're playing the wrong game. A GMH will never be able to (or care to) offer the same amount of coin an indie can potentially earn. They haven't in nearly two decades the game's been alive, and they won't start now. This is both due to the fact enterprising indies will always look for ways to make coin (and who wouldn't really) and the fact that it doesn't make sense for a GMH to spend that much on labor. It would cut into their profits without reason. What the GMH offers in lieu of coin, are various privileges. Those cost the House little-to-nothing but offer its employees benefits they might otherwise be unable to enjoy (or have a hard time achieving).

Over time staff has, with the assistance of players and staff members alike, corrected most of the truly game-breaking economy issues. I won't go into details on that point. Beyond that though, any attempt to penalize the few will have a negative effect on the many. What can be pushed though are the benefits a clan offers to its members outside of coin. And even on that department changes are still happening these days which benefit clanned individuals. See the recent apartment changes as one example of privileges clans can now offer to their members.

In short, if you're looking to make being in a clan more meaningful, don't look at the economy. Tossing more coin to clanned members or less coin to indies isn't going to fix that. Look at what benefits a clan can offer outside of pay. And keep in mind that the single most important reason a player wants to be a part of a clan is the interaction. You could offer silk-lined beds and bags of coin to your hunters, but if the clan's leadership sucks or the player is more content in isolated roles, nothing's going to get them in there. Likewise, if a clan is the right fit for a player and their character, and/or the leadership of said clan is doing a good job, it'll find itself full of members regardless of how little or how much the salary is. Don't believe me? Two decades worth of clans that have at various times been full of members can back me on this.

As for the merger idea, since we haven't moved from it clearly...

It is all the reasoning you need anyways since you can come up with hundred of really good reasons for things happening IC.

If it were to happen, it would be entirely for OOC reasons, and would by flying in the face of everything IC. And while changes can often happen for OOC reasons and have weak IC justifications, they usually happen when there's a damn serious need for it OOC. I'm sorry but having a couple more players to hunt with when someone decides to play in a GMH doesn't feel like the earth-shattering reason a change like this would need to justify it.

You need at least one of your reasons to be strong when discussing game-wide changes like this. If there's a very serious OOC need, the IC justifications can be weaker. If there's very good IC reasons for a change, the OOC benefits don't have to be as substantial. Right now both are weak. The OOC reasons have already been stated (more player interaction in clans) and I'm not the only one who finds them a minor nuisance. Even those supporting the idea acknowledge that. Which is why I'm waiting to hear how this makes sense IC. If there's a strong enough case for it IC, then perhaps an OOC benefit as minor as this makes the proposal worth consideration.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 13, 2014, 11:29:03 AM
I'm still waiting to hear about all these amazing IC benefits this would bring to the table for GMH's

IC:
Lower overhead (no/fewer resource-gathering employees to have to feed/cloth/shelter).
Merchants and political agents could do their jobs without having to micro-manage employees.
Being able to vet possible skilled laborers or trustworthy minions without risking bringing in unknown thieves/troublemakers/dramaqueens.
Larger pool of hunters/grebbers to task with something would likely bring quicker and greater yields of what is needed.
Larger pool of hunters/grebbers increases the chance of specialized skills that may be needed to reach certain places or tackle certain challenges.

OOC and IC:
All GMH/Cooperative employees/leaders would likely have more incentive and opportunity for interaction. Instead of three groups segregated into their compounds, they are all gathering at the same tavern/warehouse to talk shop and discuss business deals.

I would certainly be against this being thrown in OOCly (OOC changes to the game world always leave me feeling resentful when it is something that COULD be done ingame with the right character/player/staff effort), but it would certainly be an interesting venture to tackle in game.  Good luck to anyone who tries!
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 13, 2014, 11:32:31 AM
I do think drink in most taverns could be lowered to a few sids. Even a runner in the Byn should be buy a cup of piss-ale after a log day of cleaning out the shitter.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 13, 2014, 12:37:25 PM
Responses in bold below, inline.

IC:
Lower overhead (no/fewer resource-gathering employees to have to feed/cloth/shelter).
Pretty much the same amount of employees would be needed to support the needs of each House individually as they would if combined, given the very different needs each House has in terms of materials and the rate of production of said materials remaining the same. Speaking virtually at least, since this is mentioned as an IC benefit. Further, this actually goes against the OOC benefit being asked for, which is increased interaction. Cutting down the number of PC would lead to less interaction. Lastly, it would have a negative effect on the game due to less GMH positions being available to players as a whole. So it sucks from an OOC standpoint and seems unrealistic from an IC one.

Merchants and political agents could do their jobs without having to micro-manage employees.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. If reading it correctly, there would actually be more micro-managing involved in order to ensure each employee is properly seeing the needs of a given House addressed (and not overlooking them for the needs of another House). The more complex an organization, the more need for micro-managing. If you mean because there would be less employees to manage, see above response. Feel free to elaborate though.

Being able to vet possible skilled laborers or trustworthy minions without risking bringing in unknown thieves/troublemakers/dramaqueens.
I fail to see how a merger accomplishes this any more than it can be accomplished right now. Elaborate if you like, but as stated it makes no sense.

Larger pool of hunters/grebbers to task with something would likely bring quicker and greater yields of what is needed.
You forgot the caveat to that, "at the cost of other needed resources." If there's 30 hunters in the merged House, which were once 10 per House, those hunters either need to continue bringing in House-specific materials for the needs of each House or production of one House will suffer for the benefit of another. Beyond which, urgent needs can and have been addressed in the past by outsourcing. You don't hire on more hunters that you expect to pay for a lifetime (or their lifetime at least) just because you need a bit more resource x for that month. Also if you entirely eliminate outsourcing, you take away whatever GMH-to-indie interaction existed, which hurts the game as a whole. Essentially taking away interaction in order to promote interaction.

Larger pool of hunters/grebbers increases the chance of specialized skills that may be needed to reach certain places or tackle certain challenges.
Sure, why not. Though at the same time, proper training and/or outsourcing can still see those needs addressed when really specialized challenges come along. Training having the benefit of a stronger force and outsourcing having the benefit of less pay. It would also mean less contracts to the Byn, which means less interaction there. But let's say that no one cares about the Byn, right? I'll give you this one.

OOC and IC:
All GMH/Cooperative employees/leaders would likely have more incentive and opportunity for interaction. Instead of three groups segregated into their compounds, they are all gathering at the same tavern/warehouse to talk shop and discuss business deals.
Yay for interaction, but that's an OOC benefit not an IC one. If members of different Houses have IC reason to interact, they already do. Or should. A merger in order to force them to interact for IC reasons seems... silly. Is the reasoning here, "We're going to merge the Great Merchant Houses because you all need to learn to be more social?" And why would that even matter in most cases? Does Amos Salarr care if Malik Kurac sold a pinch of spice to Joe Indie? They'd also have IC cause to interact because of the merger, which is an after-effect. They wouldn't have cause to interact any more than they do already if the merger never happened. So that can't be one of the IC reasons for the merger to happen, unless we're bringing Inception into this.

I would certainly be against this being thrown in OOCly (OOC changes to the game world always leave me feeling resentful when it is something that COULD be done ingame with the right character/player/staff effort), but it would certainly be an interesting venture to tackle in game.  Good luck to anyone who tries!
Good luck to anyone who tries indeed, because it seems like they have a lot of explaining to do to their Seniors on how this makes sense for their House. But if it happens via IC means, I'm all for it. It means both players and staff is on-board with the plan, and it makes sense IC for it to happen. So far though, it seems like the only way this is going to take off the ground is if it's enforced OOC from staff. Which will need much better reasoning than what's been offered here so far. That's not my opinion, that's been stated plainly by Nyr.

And...

I do think drink in most taverns could be lowered to a few sids. Even a runner in the Byn should be buy a cup of piss-ale after a log day of cleaning out the shitter.
Completely agree. It's an easy fix with minimal impact for a minimal issue. Those are the best kinds of tweaks, which little by little help bring about a better game.

Hope that helps. I'm not trying to burst any bubbles here, I'm just not seeing any IC rhyme and reason to this proposal.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 13, 2014, 12:45:49 PM
I'm still waiting to hear about all these amazing IC benefits this would bring to the table for GMH's

IC:
Lower overhead (no/fewer resource-gathering employees to have to feed/cloth/shelter).
Merchants and political agents could do their jobs without having to micro-manage employees.
Being able to vet possible skilled laborers or trustworthy minions without risking bringing in unknown thieves/troublemakers/dramaqueens.
Larger pool of hunters/grebbers to task with something would likely bring quicker and greater yields of what is needed.
Larger pool of hunters/grebbers increases the chance of specialized skills that may be needed to reach certain places or tackle certain challenges.

There are political advantages too.  If they're able to all get along under one roof, they'd be a political powerhouse, an effective monopoly over everything.  If Kurac were willing to share Luir's Outpost, they'd also have the sovereignty of having a home base that they'd control outside of the City States, giving them some freedom to do what they want without having to worry as much about Allanak/Tuluk.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 13, 2014, 12:46:36 PM
nevermind
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 13, 2014, 01:02:47 PM
Ouroboros, I don't think you ever will either find good IC justification. You don't like the idea of bringing the clans together at all, despite being some benefits (more plots and interaction with people looking to play similar type roles) which you believe is minor. I disagree with you but that is okay. However from an IC mean there is a war. You have two clans that are sending resources back to the enemy. Resources that yes you need but the enemy does as well. Obsidian coins mean shit at the top levels, its all about resources and power. It might just be me but I think I can come up with at least a couple of reasons why the houses might feel the need to bring their resources together stuck in between two gigantic enemies.  

Still its a fool errand to try to justify all this ICly in any way, because for ever IC justification someone can create, you can just as easily make up several IC counters to why that should not happen. I'm not really arguing for the idea of a merger anymore mind you, again the benefits vs the OOC cons of that idea (which I haven't heard many if any of) are subject to debate. I just think its silly that any idea with the OOC benefit of improving the game and the player experience experience needs strong IC justification to do. Again it would be easy to create an amazing story justifying it ICly after all.  If this was the case all the time, nothing would change or happen in the game at all. We'd still have the firestorm around, and I for one like the new tavern and its location.

Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 13, 2014, 01:06:59 PM
 If Kurac were willing to share Luir's Outpost, they'd also have the sovereignty of having a home base that they'd control outside of the City States, giving them some freedom to do what they want without having to worry as much about Allanak/Tuluk.

 :-*
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Reiloth on July 13, 2014, 02:04:38 PM
I think 'mergers' haven't happened as much as absorption, like with House Delann getting absorbed into House Kurac.

I agree that merging clans would be more of an OOC construct, and unless one of the GMH's were floundering and about to 'go out of business' in a sense, the separate entities wouldn't think of forking over even an iota of their monopolies.

I remember playing a Kuraci Agent and spending some time trying to buy riding boots designs from Kadius -- It was hellish, as it should have been. Kadius didn't want to let go of the design, and Kurac wanted it. Kadius knew and understood that Kurac wanted it, but that just gave them more bargaining power, etc.

So I just can't see a situation where Kadius and Kurac would sit down and hash out terms to 'join forces'. There is no company going public and commoners buying stock, there is no real benefit to combining forces beyond creating more headaches. Part of the reason these GMH are in different monopolies that are so niche, is they don't compete with each other. Clothing/Luxury Goods, Weapons/Armor, Desert Survival Gear/Spice. There's some crossover, but not enough to warrant getting up in arms about. Forking over designs (which is what would happen if the GMH merged together) is like flushing their 'power' down the toilet. And for what?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 13, 2014, 02:07:32 PM
There are political advantages too.  If they're able to all get along under one roof, they'd be a political powerhouse, an effective monopoly over everything.  If Kurac were willing to share Luir's Outpost, they'd also have the sovereignty of having a home base that you control outside of the City States, giving them some freedom to do what they want without having to worry as much about Allanak/Tuluk.

They already have an effective monopoly over everything, shared amongst themselves alone. What makes you think that the GMH's currently don't support each other when it comes to the political arena?  What makes you think Kurac would be willing to share the Outpost? What makes you think either city-state would let this merger happen? Do you know what happens behind closed Senate meetings? Do you know how little or how much cooperation GMH Seniors offer to each other?

These are some of many questions I would hope someone truly interested in seeing this happen would try to have answered IC. There's no point in speculating on the political aspect though, as none of us besides staff has any concrete information on such. Those questions are just food for thought.

Ouroboros, I don't think you ever will either find good IC justification. You don't like the idea of bringing the clans together at all, despite being some benefits (more plots and interaction with people looking to play similar type roles) which you believe is minor. I disagree with you but that is okay. However from an IC mean there is a war. You have two clans that are sending resources back to the enemy. Resources that yes you need but the enemy does as well. Obsidian coins mean shit at the top levels, its all about resources and power. It might just be me but I think I can come up with at least a couple of reasons why the houses might feel the need to bring their resources together stuck in between two gigantic enemies.  

Still its a fool errand to try to justify all this ICly in any way, because for ever IC justification someone can create, you can just as easily make up several IC counters to why that should not happen. I'm not really arguing for the idea of a merger anymore mind you, again the benefits vs the OOC cons of that idea (which I haven't heard many if any of) are subject to debate. I just think its silly that any idea with the OOC benefit of improving the game and the player experience experience needs strong IC justification to do. Again it would be easy to create an amazing story justifying it ICly after all.  If this was the case all the time, nothing would change or happen in the game at all. We'd still have the firestorm around, and I for one like the new tavern and its location.

Dresan, don't mistake my arguments for bias and don't confuse me with the average GDB poster. While I've played on an off since 2002 and I follow the boards regularly, there's a reason I rarely post. I don't like arguing for argument's sake, as many here tend to enjoy. If I'm posting it's either because I feel strongly about an issue and think it needs vocal support, or because I'm trying to help other players. In this case I'm asking questions that need to be asked, and I'm offering those seeking to support a given proposal the chance to debate their stance in a much more open fashion than they would receive from staff. Whether I like the idea has no bearing on whether it will happen or not, I'm not a staff member. I just happen to agree with staff's opinion on this so far. It happens now and then.

Yes, I believe the OOC benefit of a merger, increased interaction, is minor. That's because the interaction is there already, and the times when it isn't are intermittent and often attributed to more than how many players are active. As I've said before in this discussion, a good portion of the blame for an empty clan falls on the shoulders of its leadership and another good portion falls on the fact not all players enjoy clan interaction. I've tried not to highlight the former too much because no one likes to hear they're not a good leader, but unfortunately not every player is cut-out for it. There's also nothing that can be done about the later, because some players simply prefer isolationist roles. And there are players who might not mind being in a clan, but a GMH isn't their cup of tea. They might prefer one of the various other clan styles, such as the tribes, the respective militias, or the many Noble Houses.

I don't think that forcing a merger via artificial means is the solution, if one is even needed, and I believe it has the potential for more harm than good. Consider for example the scenario where the PC leadership of the conglomerate sucks. It happens in every clan and there's no reason to think it wouldn't in this scenario either. At that point as a potential employee you're screwed. Where you used to have three different options available to you, you're now stuck with one. Whoever is in charge there is it, no avoiding them. And that's just one of many potential issues, off the top of my head.

That's my opinion though, and each is entitled to theirs. I've done my best to support my opinion with facts instead of speculation, and have asked the same of others. I know it must seem like it at times but my goal isn't to argue you to death. It's to force you to either realize you're wrong by discussing various aspects of an issue you might not have thought of, or realize you're right and support your argument in a stronger fashion. One that might be better heard by staff and other players alike.

As far as justifications go, there's weak ones and strong ones. I already shared my feelings on what the ratio of that should be, across an OOC need. And I wasn't the first to say so by any means. Nyr himself clearly stated this in saying, "There's not any IC reason for a merger.  The only thing brought up is that at times, one of two GMH clans may have more people than the other.  That's hardly a reason to suggest a merger.  That's also not a good reason for this pool." I've simply tried to explain why that might be, and hoped that if there was a stronger defense for this idea, that it would surface through discussion. So far it doesn't seem to have.

In any case... I think I've said enough here already, and I don't want anyone to feel I'm bullying them. So I'll step away from the discussion and let folks ponder what's been said and how they might want to proceed. My reason for saying anything here wasn't because I felt strongly about the issue, I stated I felt it was silly and unrealistic to begin with. I only continued with it to help the discussion progress in case something interesting came of it.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 13, 2014, 02:31:29 PM
To be honest I can't get my head to wrap around the idea that the upper dozen or so of the two merchant houses would most of them agree to this, I keep thinking of them as a tribal, isolationist, inbred bunch of soulless powermongers who marry each other off for the politics and have shadow artists on the naki payroll. The merchant houses don't share anything but the fact that they are both merchant houses, something I feel works against them because of the above. Anyone feel like wasting some time explaining to me why folks think a merger would work from the eyes of the 0.1%? I know nothing of economics.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 13, 2014, 02:46:35 PM
It looks like we may have gotten our wires crossed. I was not meaning to support a merger of the GMHs but having a common pool of indie hunters and grebbers that worked together on contract. We have the Byn when we need to hire muscle. Tuluk has Shadow Artistry when you need people eliminated or pressured.  Merchant houses use both of these established systems with good success at times.

Lower overhead (no/fewer resource-gathering employees to have to feed/cloth/shelter).
Pretty much the same amount of employees would be needed to support the needs of each House individually as they would if combined, given the very different needs each House has in terms of materials and the rate of production of said materials remaining the same. Speaking virtually at least, since this is mentioned as an IC benefit. Further, this actually goes against the OOC benefit being asked for, which is increased interaction. Cutting down the number of PC would lead to less interaction. Lastly, it would have a negative effect on the game due to less GMH positions being available to players as a whole. So it sucks from an OOC standpoint and seems unrealistic from an IC one.
This is incorrect. Any business has ups and downs, even monopolies.  If your sales are down, you are still paying benefits such as food/clothing/shelter/water (this is part of what makes up overhead) at the same cost as if business were booming, even if you do cut their pay. They will also keep bringing in unneeded materials (inventory is also what makes up overhead).  Your crafters will also keep making more inventory that the market can support (more inventory overhead).  Eventually you are going to get desperate for cashflow (cause you need this to keep your bosses and employees from cutting your throat, literally in this game) and lower the price of your surplus goods which lowers the value of your product.  Generally speaking, once this happens a business is going to fail or spend years trying to recover speaking virtually at least, since this was mentioned as an IC benefit.

Also, we are not cutting down on the number of PCs, instead of the merchant houses having three resource-gathering employees each, they have access to nine.  Instead of three groups of four PCs (leader and three grebbers) you have twelve people that play off each other's strengths and make up for each other weaknesses without being bound into any kind of long term contract.  GMHs can still hire people they find particularly useful, but they don't have to hire three BillyJoeBobs off the street just so that they can get someone to gather some branches and tregil hides or depend on solo hunters who MIGHT live through the week.  If PC leaders weren't forced into hiring the PCs they need to get coded materials in, they can instead, save those slots for people with who they have built up a mutually beneficial relationship with and who can better further plots. (Again, the Byn and shadow artistry systems in place have already showed us that this works.)


Merchants and political agents could do their jobs without having to micro-manage employees.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. If reading it correctly, there would actually be more micro-managing involved in order to ensure each employee is properly seeing the needs of a given House addressed (and not overlooking them for the needs of another House). The more complex an organization, the more need for micro-managing. If you mean because there would be less employees to manage, see above response. Feel free to elaborate though.

Business use temp services (no and low-skill labor pools like the idea I am supporting) because instead of having to vet and hire people and provide them with the already mentioned benefits, you can make a call (way message) and say, "I need three people to come do this job for me and I am willing to pay this much for it." Once the job is done, they go back into the pool until they are needed again, or if one or more seems particularly useful and drama/trouble free, you can offer the job.  I have always seen GMH leaders pleading for employees on city boards to look particularly jarring from an IC standpoint.  These should be coveted positions not places for inexperienced noobs (meaning IC noobs, not new players!) to train up.  And GMH leaders should be begged for employment, not begging for employees.

Labor-pool employees don't require baby sitting, you don't have to deal with their drama or baggage, you don't have to listen to their OMG my life sucks stories, and when they fuck up, the templars don't come looking for you for an explanation or restitution.  You tell them what to do, and they do it or they don't and you get someone else form the pool, end of story unless you WANT to hire them. Again, I don't think that GMHs should HAVE to take on the responsibility of full-time employees unless they desire such, and I remember one kadian who did very well by choosing -not- to have a crew at all *eyeballs Lizzie*.  If you don't think this kind of system can be successful, again, look at the Byn, Shadow artists and patron/partisan systems. YOu can OOCly and ICly still be a good leader, plot driver and keep PCs busy without hiring them.  People will never OOCly or IC look at GMH employment as "elite" when people are being hired straight out of character generation without first proving that they are worth the time, effort, and coin.

Being able to vet possible skilled laborers or trustworthy minions without risking bringing in unknown thieves/troublemakers/dramaqueens.
I fail to see how a merger accomplishes this any more than it can be accomplished right now. Elaborate if you like, but as stated it makes no sense.

With a semi-organized labor pool, you know longer have to hire someone without them proving that they are worth it, and they have a way to skill up and DESERVE and merchant house job without going out alone and getting killed.
I think the above should clear that up, let me know if it doesn't. Sorry that it looked like I was supporting some kind of merger.


Larger pool of hunters/grebbers to task with something would likely bring quicker and greater yields of what is needed.
You forgot the caveat to that, "at the cost of other needed resources." If there's 30 hunters in the merged House, which were once 10 per House, those hunters either need to continue bringing in House-specific materials for the needs of each House or production of one House will suffer for the benefit of another. Beyond which, urgent needs can and have been addressed in the past by outsourcing. You don't hire on more hunters that you expect to pay for a lifetime (or their lifetime at least) just because you need a bit more resource x for that month. Also if you entirely eliminate outsourcing, you take away whatever GMH-to-indie interaction existed, which hurts the game as a whole. Essentially taking away interaction in order to promote interaction.

I believe this has been answered already, let me know if you don't think so.

Larger pool of hunters/grebbers increases the chance of specialized skills that may be needed to reach certain places or tackle certain challenges.
Sure, why not. Though at the same time, proper training and/or outsourcing can still see those needs addressed when really specialized challenges come along. Training having the benefit of a stronger force and outsourcing having the benefit of less pay. It would also mean less contracts to the Byn, which means less interaction there. But let's say that no one cares about the Byn, right? I'll give you this one.

They Byn are not hunters and grebbers, they are mercenaries, paid -soldiers-.  Some sergeants will make exceptions when times are tough but there it is.  Also, these two groups would clash from time to time with contracts, which is great because Conflict is one of the main drivers of Story.


OOC and IC:
All GMH/Cooperative employees/leaders would likely have more incentive and opportunity for interaction. Instead of three groups segregated into their compounds, they are all gathering at the same tavern/warehouse to talk shop and discuss business deals.
Yay for interaction, but that's an OOC benefit not an IC one. If members of different Houses have IC reason to interact, they already do. Or should. A merger in order to force them to interact for IC reasons seems... silly. Is the reasoning here, "We're going to merge the Great Merchant Houses because you all need to learn to be more social?" And why would that even matter in most cases? Does Amos Salarr care if Malik Kurac sold a pinch of spice to Joe Indie? They'd also have IC cause to interact because of the merger, which is an after-effect. They wouldn't have cause to interact any more than they do already if the merger never happened. So that can't be one of the IC reasons for the merger to happen, unless we're bringing Inception into this.

Interaction and building a larger web of influence is not an IC benefit? Sure, if you are some kind of evil abomination.  Humans and humanoids are generally social creatures and the desire to interact with one another is a very strong driving force in your average sapient psyche.  People already use the taverns as places for business meetings, "having the hunter/grebber guild" meet up at a certain time each day if they aren't working to shoot the ship and share/exchange contracts seems natural.
"Hey, Amos Saltfeet, man... you have any salt on you or going out next week? Foofoo Kadius wants a sack of different kinds to try with a new recipe, and I fucking hate getting salt in my asscrack."
"Nah man, but Takki does.... Hey, Takki, head over here when that whore gets done and crawls out from under the table, eh!?"


I would certainly be against this being thrown in OOCly (OOC changes to the game world always leave me feeling resentful when it is something that COULD be done ingame with the right character/player/staff effort), but it would certainly be an interesting venture to tackle in game.  Good luck to anyone who tries!
Good luck to anyone who tries indeed, because it seems like they have a lot of explaining to do to their Seniors on how this makes sense for their House. But if it happens via IC means, I'm all for it. It means both players and staff is on-board with the plan, and it makes sense IC for it to happen. So far though, it seems like the only way this is going to take off the ground is if it's enforced OOC from staff. Which will need much better reasoning than what's been offered here so far. That's not my opinion, that's been stated plainly by Nyr.

Good, I don't want them to merge either!
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 13, 2014, 03:17:20 PM
There are political advantages too.  If they're able to all get along under one roof, they'd be a political powerhouse, an effective monopoly over everything.  If Kurac were willing to share Luir's Outpost, they'd also have the sovereignty of having a home base that you control outside of the City States, giving them some freedom to do what they want without having to worry as much about Allanak/Tuluk.

They already have an effective monopoly over everything, shared amongst  themselves alone. What makes you think that the GMH's currently don't support each other when it comes to the political arena?
You make a good point.  They each have their -own- individual monopolies, but they don't have a monopoly over "everything".  Let me try to illustrate this point with a common situation that might arise in game.  Lets say Warlord Tor gets his panties in a bind over Lady Oash's birthday gift being late or wrong because Kadius just screwed up and this has hurt his chances at get into her pants/skirt.  He's mad and he works to convince House Tor to boycott buying any and all servant livery, food and other luxury goods from House Kadius and instead goes with the option to do it in house or use independents or lesser merchant houses.  If Salarr and Kadius were joined together in some kind of merchant house trade union that's been suggested, Tor wouldn't even think to put the quality or  supply of the armor and weapons they buy from the same group.

What makes you think Kurac would be willing to share the Outpost?
Nothing is impossible.  This is a unique sacrifice that the other houses wouldn't be making but Kurac would be gaining from this too.  I'm not suggesting Kurac share all their super sekrit Kuraci stuff, there are degrees of sharing that they may be willing to accept.   I'm not staff and I don't determine the aspects of the virtual world but I don't think it's implausible that Kurac couldn't be convinced to allow other merchant houses to operate in Luir's.  What if Luir's were to become the merchant house capitol?  As masters over Luir's, that'd give Kurac a lot of power over those inside the walls.

What makes you think either city-state would let this merger happen?
I'm sure the city states wouldn't like the fact that they'd lose a lot of leverage if something this happened, but would they really care that much?  In a situation where they did care, what would they be prepared to do?  Destroy them?  If they do something like that they'd be shooting themselves in the foot, cutting off their supply of whatever those merchant houses supply, at least until someone else moved in to fill the gap which would take a long time.

Do you know what happens behind closed Senate meetings?  Do you know how little or how much cooperation GMH Seniors offer to each other?

These are some of many questions I would hope someone truly interested in seeing this happen would try to have answered IC. There's no point in speculating on the political aspect though, as none of us besides staff has any concrete information on such. Those questions are just food for thought.

While the details do make things much more complicated, my points are still valid.  This would could be a profitable venture for the merchant houses, both economically and politically.  They'd have to get along, which might be a problem but ultimately they'd be better off.   Would the personalities that make up the houses want to do something like this, individuals that are grounded in tradition, greedy rich individuals that don't want the hassle?  Probably not.  But is it icly implausible or even impossible?  Stranger things have happened.

I'm not aware of any IC push to do this and staff seem to be happy with the way things are so I  wouldn't worry that any change like this might happen.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 13, 2014, 04:00:02 PM
I already specified the #1 IC reason why the GMHs would consider wanting a merger: world domination. Remember, Nenyuk is also a GMH. You get Nenyuk, Kurac, Kadius, and Salarr to join forces, and they can dictate the laws in any place they do business. They could tell the Nobility to sit there and beg for their silken underwear, they could tell Lord Tor exactly where he can put his Deadly Death-Axe of Doom. They could tell the Templarate that no, they won't be paying any taxes this year and in fact they're raising the prices of all goods and services, and rent, to the Templarate, the Legion, and the Militia and how about we just have Lord Vader Highlord Tek come out of his hidey-hole and entertain us with his little cantrips while we have ourselves a nice hot mug of I Don't Give A Shit. Oh and by the way, we've depleted your bank account, Lord Templar Trade Minister, you'll have to borrow from us if you want a mug of your own. We'll give you good rates. Just stand out on Hrathor's Way and ask for Quick.

Which independant is going to make all that armor, all those weapons, all those clothes, import and process all that spice, and so on, for two entire cities? Johnboy Klestion? Good luck with that.

Once again, this notion isn't new, and it HAS been attempted in the past. OOC logistics is the only reason most people haven't ever heard about it. Players store characters, characters get assassinated, other players just quit playing for whatever reason. And so plotlines die. This particular plotline has been in the game, in various incarnations, led by different PCs, for over a decade.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 13, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Tek/Muk would just send in the Blacks/High Templars to execute/disappear the top twenty or so heads of each House.  Their replacements would put shit back like the -god- -kings- want it.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 13, 2014, 05:29:39 PM
I think the new clan pay standards if/when they happen as explained by Nyr should signal a decrease in the overall political power of Merchant Houses. In game, it felt like GMHers often had more cash to throw around than the nobility, and it appears staff don't want that to be the case?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Rahnevyn on July 13, 2014, 05:38:53 PM
I think the new clan pay standards if/when they happen as explained by Nyr should signal a decrease in the overall political power of Merchant Houses. In game, it felt like GMHers often had more cash to throw around than the nobility, and it appears staff don't want that to be the case?

Some of the changes have already happened, as the Weekly Update shows. Still, I wouldn't take the size of in-game bank accounts, how much cash can be thrown around by a PC, or how much employees get paid as a full measure of political power of a House either way. Whether Salarr or Kadius can outmuscle Oash or Borsail or Winrothol in the arena of politics is definitely a question best answered in game.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 13, 2014, 05:51:24 PM
Have the people who are claiming there is mostly minimal IC justification forgotten the redesign of Tuluk? I'm not for any merger or pool but that argument seems baffling considering other things that have been done for OOC reasons, recently even.

And we PCs are just too low level to accomplish any merger. The glass ceiling effectively makes it impossible for PCs to do. The people in charge like it the way it is. Say you are in House A and you want to wipe out House B, your superiors will say "Just get along.".

Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 13, 2014, 05:53:24 PM
I think the new clan pay standards if/when they happen as explained by Nyr should signal a decrease in the overall political power of Merchant Houses. In game, it felt like GMHers often had more cash to throw around than the nobility, and it appears staff don't want that to be the case?

Some of the changes have already happened, as the Weekly Update shows. Still, I wouldn't take the size of in-game bank accounts, how much cash can be thrown around by a PC, or how much employees get paid as a full measure of political power of a House either way. Whether Salarr or Kadius can outmuscle Oash or Borsail or Winrothol in the arena of politics is definitely a question best answered in game.

I didn't mean to imply it WAS that way, just that it could feel that way on the ground, since PC interactions between GMHs and noble houses are largely limited to the lower echelons where money has more clout.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 13, 2014, 08:36:03 PM
You get Nenyuk, Kurac, Kadius, and Salarr to join forces, and they can dictate the laws in any place they do business.

I promised not to say anything else in this discussion, but I just wanted to thank you for this line. Funniest thing I've read in a while. It made me think of Borsail sending a postcard to Kurac with their old estate as the return address and a big ol' "Wish you were here!" on the front.

Carry on!
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 13, 2014, 11:51:00 PM
Yes, let us not forget. The merchant houses are allowed to operate in either city state by the grace of the actual rulers of said city states.

Some have been tossed from said areas in the past with ease. Luirs in fact has been controlled by Nak and only won its freedom with the help of Tuluk. Hell, Some upstart Sorc took control of it and again, only lost it because another citystate decided they would rather have Kurac there then a bunch of mantis.

If you merged all the GMH together they would wield no greater power then they do already in either citystate...the difference in power between all of them together and even a single black robe is akin to that of a tregil verses a silt giant.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Riev on July 14, 2014, 01:02:04 AM
I really tried to read all 5 pages, but by the time I hit page 4, I realized the entire thread was boiling down to:


I have an interesting idea. Lets see if it works.

I hate your idea, because I have an OOC prejudice against <clan> or <job type>.

Alright, well, this IS a discussion, right?

No. Indies suck. Join a clan for plots, thats why they are there.

Rinse, and repeat.




I remember when this was a discussion board. Originally, the discussion was clan pay and benefits (which has been discussed, and has been gone over by staff numerous times, with the typical slow, creeping-death changes that come about after months of discussion and plotting) but then it turned into "Well what if, the benefit of clans was, indeed, for the plots. Having 3 different clans, who all operate worldwide, competing for the same 12 players that play hunters is starting to be less "exciting" and more work with little returns. What if there was <implementation> instead?"

And everyone turns to "Indies suck too bad". "We don't need this." "Seems like you want to be a snowflake." "Stop trying to change the gameworld, you are just a player." Or perhaps my favorite:

merger:  aims to fix a problem that (again) largely doesn't exist...with a solution that flies in the face of the IC world, because "merger"

While I agree the problem doesn't exist as described, tossing out the idea of a merger, "because merger" is probably THE most childish thing I've seen. This isn't argument topics, this is just plain "Your idea is dumb, and also its dumb because you used an anachronistic word. So. Ended."

On the ACTUAL topic, if clans are for plots, and the only way to get "access" to "the plots" is to be part of a clan, then shouldn't there be more plots in the clans? This is mostly a leadership issue, but I mean, people are saying the draw of clans is not pay, benefits, armor, or expenditures, but in fact the ability to participate in plots. I havn't seen a good plot since a particular GMH Merchant really pissed off <nasty organization> and so <nasty organization> literally went around killing every employee that Merchant hired. I was one of the people killed, I still hate it, and I STILL think it was a great plot point.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 14, 2014, 07:47:42 AM
Clan=Plots to me has always sounded just plain wrong. Not wrong (it shouldn't be like that) but wrong (this is totally untrue).

I've played in clan where there would be RL months between doing anything that wasn't on the weekly schedule, and I've played independence who were involved in world-changing events.  If one happens to have short playtimes, you could play a real-life year in the Byn without ever getting to leave the compound because you can't make the peak RPTs and you're always seem to miss the days off (not to mention missing out on promotions and recognition of your efforts and time given to the game), so you are never exposed to anyone outside those who are both in your clan and share your play time with and you only get to experience .05% of the game world.  That is an extreme example, but it is far from unheard of.  Ask anyone who has ever played a Kuraci in Luir's when there weren't a lot of tribals and traders passing through.  Playing in a clan can be even more isolating than playing a rogue sorcerer hidden deep beyond the reached of the Known at times.  Plots happen where people and conflict come together. Sometimes this will involved affiliated PC, sometimes indies, sometimes both, but Clans=Plots is far, far from an absolute.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Cutthroat on July 14, 2014, 08:22:45 AM
I don't think clans are the only way to get access to plots, but it certainly makes access to certain kinds of plots and deeper involvement within them easier. Membership isn't even necessary, just affiliation (contract work, patronage, or knowing a guy who knows a guy who's in the House...) But timing is another factor. Sometimes there isn't a lot going on.

Regardless, the economy of the game should focus on reflecting that the vast majority of the wealth is controlled by GMHs, noble houses, and the templarate. I don't agree with the idea of a merger not only because GMHs wouldn't let it happen themselves, but even the government of the cities would dislike it. Four merchant houses fighting each other for profit is better for the government than a single unified front of merchants. The economy of the game should be more player-driven, and the main money sources should be clanned people with fat purses that use the money they get from their inflated salary to buy goods and services from each other and from independents. More items (ideally, and I realize it would be an immense undertaking, every not-raw item in the game) should be craftable. Don't take away automated jobs or make it harder to sell goods to NPC shops, just make those things the less-profitable alternative to dealing with players.

Being an indie should be a tough experience, not a boring one, and being clanned should give you an automatic incentive to interact with people. Money and desire are natural plot-starters.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 14, 2014, 08:57:36 AM
I remember when this was a discussion board.

Good lord, you've a long memory.


While I agree the problem doesn't exist as described, tossing out the idea of a merger, "because merger" is probably THE most childish thing I've seen. This isn't argument topics, this is just plain "Your idea is dumb, and also its dumb because you used an anachronistic word. So. Ended."

In Nyr's defense (did I just write that?) I'll agree that the wording could have been more eloquently stated but the message was fairly accurate. And it's not as much about the word itself being anachronistic, as it is about the meaning of the word being anachronistic and out of place in the setting. That's what I was trying to explain along various points in the discussion, in hopes that someone would get it. Yes, apparently players have been trying to see a merger happen for a decade now. And apparently after a decade of it not happening, it still hasn't clicked why that is, with the blame resting on poor play-time scheduling and folks dying. It doesn't seem to have crossed the minds of the participants of these various attempts that they might be trying to bring in a concept that's entirely foreign to the setting.

One can play armchair economist all day long, and who doesn't love to, but at the end of the day we have to realize many of the modern business models go out of the window when it comes to Zalanthas. Why? Because disputes are settled by muthafuckaz with bone swordz, not in court or a board room. Because terms like "survival of the fittest" and "law of the jungle" aren't just motivational posters in a Wall St. office next to a pristine copy of the Art of War, but very, very literal and when someone says "work is killing me" they probably mean it. Because you can think you've all the money and power in the world, until you're staring at the maw of a Dragon and he's wondering what in Drov made you think you mattered more than kank-shit. There's no business model in our society that accounts for magick and psionics.

As for your sentiments on clans needing more plots, and that being largely a leadership issue... Sure. You know what's going to follow that though, right? Be the Change ô.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delusion on July 14, 2014, 10:04:00 AM
My independent PCs have gone and seen and done as much cool and interesting stuff as my clanned PCs, if not more. They have also been far wealthier than my clanned PCs. I did have a clanned PC with around 30k in the bank and a lot of personal belongings, but that was the exception rather than the norm. 30,000 isn't even that much compared to the earning potential of an independent, besides.

That's fine by me - I can just avoid clans unless they really seem to fit what I want to do with a PC. It seems backwards, even so.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 14, 2014, 10:35:45 AM
While I agree the problem doesn't exist as described, tossing out the idea of a merger, "because merger" is probably THE most childish thing I've seen. This isn't argument topics, this is just plain "Your idea is dumb, and also its dumb because you used an anachronistic word. So. Ended."

Well, firstly, I don't really mind if people want to spend their time discussing something to fix a problem they feel exists (I haven't jumped into a few threads for that reason).  Discussion is good for identifying a problem, or at the very least, those that feel there is a problem.  So far I have seen some stuff discussed here that hints at a singular problem (hunters/crafters), but it is a minor issue, and quite cyclical as well.

Secondly, I do think it's worth discussing the dichotomy between independent roles and clanned roles, how to make them different, how to make clanned roles rewarding, how to make the independent role something to play while at the same time making it the less desirable option from an OOC and IC standpoint.  That's because that sort of thing needs to be brought up and reinforced:  there will be a divide between them.  There are multiple meta-clan groups and only one independent clan staff group; if staff wanted more focus to be on independent roles then there would be more than one team handling unclanned and independent characters.  We on staff don't hate players that play indie roles and we don't hate independents--whenever that is stated (jokingly, tongue-in-cheek, or bluntly), it is in response to any notion that independent roles should have equality beside those that are affiliated (in any fashion).  There will be drawbacks, whether coded or IC.  Play what you wish to play with the understanding that independent, unclanned, unaffiliated roles are not supported to be able to do as much as the ones in clans; the things you will be doing may be different things, maybe they will be similar but on a smaller scale, etc., and you will have to deal with the differences. Take that as a challenge or as a statement of fact, whichever you wish!  I don't know who started saying clans are for plots; people can get in plots everywhere.  The type of plot may be different.  It may be the same, it depends on what you do.

Thirdly, I don't think merger is an anachronistic word or anything.  Sure, it's not exactly normal for Zalanthas, but I wasn't scoffing at the word itself.  I was scoffing at the idea being touted as a grand solution for a relatively minor problem.  I'm trying to come up with an analogy for it.

Here's the problem:  we have a house.  We have a small hole in the roof.  At times, when it rains, the carpet beneath the hole gets wet.  Now, it doesn't downpour in torrential amounts, so it will dry on its own, but it is annoying and it could be fixed, no?

Solution 1:  patch the hole.
Solution 2:  let's encase the building inside a much larger building, or at least beneath a much larger roof.  We'll rip up the carpet and put down tile so in case it ever rains again and the big roof fails, we'll be fine and won't have to wait for the carpet to dry.

Both solutions get the problem (as perceived) addressed, but one is needlessly complex.

It seems like people are suggesting a merger because it's something new, it's big, and it would (technically) "fix" the problem.  That's why I said "because 'merger'".  I could've just as easily said "because 'shiny things'".  Several times here I've chimed in to say that any issue raised here about a lack of hunters/crafters in one of two clans isn't a very big deal.  I've also followed that up with much simpler suggestions that are much more grounded in previously applied solutions (make the lower ranks more fluid, or consider partisan-style arrangements for such unskilled needs if they exist).  Neither of these requires a major IC change and staff building work.  But somehow, every time, we get back to "let's do a merger" or "let's have a hunters pool!" and there's not really a good explanation for why the simple suggestion isn't applicable.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 14, 2014, 11:42:55 AM
Well said Nyr.


And I don't really understand the hunters pool idea anyway...I thought we had one...called indy hunters?

The only thing I can figure is that it is an idea for lazy players that don't want to actually go out and meet anybody.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: racurtne on July 14, 2014, 11:57:00 AM
Everybody seems to be becoming a little entitled after the Levies and Tuluki reshuffling happened. I see a lot of "But the LEVIES!" and "But Tuluk!" as rallying cries for further changes that dwon't have near the same level of impact.

Give an inch and they'll take a yard. (The American in me is showing in my use of the Imperial system.)

Edit:Not to say that it's not worth discussing, but I'm not going to hold my breath for more sweeping changes anytime in the near future.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 14, 2014, 12:13:59 PM
Let non-humans, non-giants train with the AoD as part of a volunteer squad, sometimes utilized for volunteer black-ops suicide missions, that's what I want to see.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 14, 2014, 12:37:30 PM
If we're addressing a problem.  The problem I have with clans is clan leaders and staff generally could be more proactive in creating interesting roleplay.  Basically, if a clan isn't actively involved in doing something, I'd rather be playing on my own.  The underlings of a clan have basically made a commitment to play in a clan, if they aren't supported by the virtual resources and people that they wouldn't otherwise get by playing an indy, they might as well be playing an indy because indy's aren't subject to the same limitations.  Basically the limitations of a clan are always there by default, but the perks are not always there.  Free food/water, a safe place to store things and a couple hundred coins ever once in a while are negligible in a game where the goal is to have fun.  Playing an indy has more opportunity for fun roleplay than playing in a clans are too dependent on clan leadership and staff which isn't consistent.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Rahnevyn on July 14, 2014, 12:42:56 PM
What clan limitations do you find the hardest to cope with?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 14, 2014, 12:48:40 PM
All this thread has taught me is that I need to PK more indies.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 14, 2014, 01:05:26 PM
Ooh, pick mine.

Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 14, 2014, 01:14:19 PM
If we're addressing a problem.  The problem I have with clans is clan leaders and staff generally could be more proactive in creating interesting roleplay.  Basically, if a clan isn't actively involved in doing something, I'd rather be playing on my own.  The underlings of a clan have basically made a commitment to play in a clan, if they aren't supported by the virtual resources and people that they wouldn't otherwise get by playing an indy, they might as well be playing an indy because indy's aren't subject to the same limitations.  Basically the limitations of a clan are always there by default, but the perks are not always there.  Free food/water, a safe place to store things and a couple hundred coins ever once in a while are negligible in a game where the goal is to have fun.  Playing an indy has more opportunity for fun roleplay than playing in a clans are too dependent on clan leadership and staff which isn't consistent.

How actively should a clan be involved in doing something in order to garner your attention?  (What does that mean exactly, for that matter--what is "something"?)  What support should the underlings of a clan get, in your estimation?  Do they often not get that support?  What limitations are imposed upon clanned PCs that are untenable?

And related, perhaps a bit of a rebuttal, but why is the onus on staff as well as sponsored leaders within clans to make things interesting enough for you to play in them?  You agree that you should also contribute as well, yes?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 14, 2014, 01:21:44 PM
And related, perhaps a bit of a rebuttal, but why is the onus on staff as well as sponsored leaders within clans to make things interesting enough for you to play in them?  You agree that you should also contribute as well, yes?

Thank you for saying politely what I've typed and erased several times now without posting, in a far less polite fashion.

Times like these I'm reminded why I rarely post.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 14, 2014, 02:34:13 PM
Having played a clan leader, the roles of some are so suffocated by 'docs' that it really makes it hard to start anything interesting. Really it feels like you suceed in game and in fun when you are ignoring or going against them. At least in my experience clan uppers always want to play it safe and keep you in your box. It is tedious to always trying to find something to do that also aligns with the clan docs.

One of my favorite times as a clan leader was chasing my renegade Runners around Allanak with my assassin Trooper stabbing them. Me being visible (and chasing after the Runners) pretending to wonder to the Arm what was going on.  Obviously bad but fun.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 14, 2014, 02:38:02 PM
What clan limitations do you find the hardest to cope with?

It isn't the clan limitations that are hard to cope with, it's hard to cope with a lack of benefits from a clan that fails to deliver on my expectations of roleplay interactions that would normally make up for the limitations so I'm then just left with those limitations that are always present.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 14, 2014, 02:40:39 PM
Times like these I'm reminded why I rarely post.

Thank you for your contributions to our community, rare as they are.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Rahnevyn on July 14, 2014, 02:43:58 PM
If you could elaborate both on what limitations are always present and what benefits you wish were more available, it'd be helpful. I'm not asking to try and prove you wrong; actually it's just to gain perspective. Maybe there are things we can look at?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 14, 2014, 03:36:53 PM
Personally, I feel that unless it's a strictly military or mercenary clan, "clan schedules" should go the way of the dodo. On top of that, I remember that even in the military clans, it was nice to try and work the schedules so that there was a sensible balance of coded vs non-coded duties vs free time, etc. Realism should not be getting in the way of pushing plots and interacting with the playerbase.

This is a bit tangential, but the schedule issue (both military and non) is one reason I miss the partisan's arena; even if it wasn't being used for its original purpose, all those clans and indies coming together to interact for sparring instead of being locked away in a clan hall? It was a hotbed for fostering interaction and conflict, both long and short-term, countless contacts, friends, and rivalries were born out of that place, and in general, it combined coded skill progress with the ability to interact with the playerbase at large, instead of being stuck in a clan hall alone or with the same rotation of 2-6 PCs, or out in the wilds hunting down gortok #24389 and skeet #978.

On the flip side of the same token, I don't feel like we should be forcing people to interact. I want to see more opportunities for people to come together without forcing them down that road. Sometimes, players just wanna rock the indie or ISO side of the game, and there's really nothing wrong with that.

So, all that said, I can see where the desire for "clan pools" came out of, but I don't agree with that as a solution. I think a better solution would be to offer the equivalent of what the partisan's arena became - for both combat characters and crafters. Similar to the firepits in taverns, it's a place where PCs can gather if they choose to do their coded "chores", and interact at the same time.

Basically, give people a reason to congregate, and they'll do so; the structure of the way things are now tends to segregate the playerbase. However, I want to reiterate that care should be taken to avoid forcing that interaction because in the end, this is a game we all play to have fun. The idea is to offer options, not limit them.

(Sorry if this was a bit rambling, I had to type it up pretty quick during a break at work.)
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 14, 2014, 03:50:21 PM
Personally, I feel that unless it's a strictly military or mercenary clan, "clan schedules" should go the way of the dodo. On top of that, I remember that even in the military clans, it was nice to try and work the schedules so that there was a sensible balance of coded vs non-coded duties vs free time, etc. Realism should not be getting in the way of pushing plots and interacting with the playerbase.

Should already be the case, across the board, IIRC.  I am pretty sure that the only clans with formalized schedules are military-esque (so...four clans?).

As for coded vs. non-coded duties and free time, that was addressed in the Legions at least.  Here's what we laid out for that experiment:

There's a schedule; if no one is around, patrols or tavern watch or other public-facing duties supersede schedule.  If someone is around, a superior can supersede the schedule (this also means superiors can supersede your time off; take note).  For every 1.5 hours of play there are 30 minutes of time intended as time off or rest time or standby or get drunk time or mudsex time or whatever you want to call it.  If a PC wants extra time off they can take it from a certain rank up.  If they abuse that, then that gets addressed at that time.

On paper I think that works out okay.  I do not personally believe that any other clans should have schedules, but that's easy to say when I'm pretty sure they don't.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 14, 2014, 04:01:19 PM
Well... good! That was my only real complaint with the way clans are set up.

Other than the "sequestering characters away in clan halls" thing, but I've already expounded on that one.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 14, 2014, 04:28:21 PM
If you could elaborate both on what limitations are always present and what benefits you wish were more available, it'd be helpful. I'm not asking to try and prove you wrong; actually it's just to gain perspective. Maybe there are things we can look at?

When one joins a clan, one is committing oneself to a side, accepting the limitations and advantages that come with being in that clan.

Most of the limitations are always present like: Kadians don't sell/craft armor/weapons and Salarris don't sell/craft clothing/jewelry.  Soldiers of His Arm don't hunt or sift spice.  Soldiers of His Legion aren't lumber jacks.  Lady Borsail's aid is expected to uphold the standards of Borsail and be her lacky/spy etc, others expect this of her aid too and treat her accordingly.  Each role is basically a job with certain expectations.

The thing that clans offer me and my characters is the opportunity to be a part of something bigger.  The structure and organization is all there but it needs someone there to be a driving force, either a staff member or a clan leader(s) that can give their clan direction, something for people to join.  Without the ability to be a part of, or create a direction for the clan I'm in, I'm better off on my own enjoying the freedom of being unaffiliated without the limitations that come with being a part of a clan.  Joining a clan is a commitment that comes at the cost of certain opportunities one expects without the guarantee of other opportunities one hopes for.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 14, 2014, 04:34:49 PM
So more suicide missions, got it.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Law&Order on July 14, 2014, 05:00:57 PM
 Clans are only as strong as the active clan leaders are.  Clan leaders, by and large, generate their own revenue which trickles down, as necessary, to the underlings.  If you've got an active clan leader who appreciates what your character is bringing to the table, then there will always be enough money for booze and wenches, no matter if you only get 150 coins every couple RL weeks.  However, if you almost never see your active clan leader and it seems like they aren't really doing their job, you know, guiding the clan, then this is when things get stagnant and risks get taken.  Which in turn hurts the clan at large, and the active playerbase, because it limits options.  So my point is, it all comes down to clan leadership, not the coded benefits that come from being in the clan.  Get good leaders who are active, you'll find a clan with good numbers, good activity and good economics.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 14, 2014, 05:35:24 PM
My most recent experience with the clans in question was pretty positive. I felt like staff were receptive to plots and goals I wanted to pursue. The biggest limitations I ran into were personnel issues, and they resolved themselves with a bit of time and effort.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: bcw81 on July 14, 2014, 05:52:44 PM
I would like to say that being a clan leader is extremely tiring at times. Over the past two years or so I've played a fair number of leaders, and while yes, it is super fun when one of your plots takes off, it's hard to actually -get- a plot to take off. You can't just tell your minions 'Hey! Let's go kill all the raiders and get paid for it.' There needs to be raiders to kill. You also can't say 'Hey, lets go attack the other city's fortifications' because, firstly, you need staff support - which takes about a week or two to set up and then they normally tell you you need to do a few things first or risk going in blind against overwhelming odds - and secondly you need an active minion pool, which seems to die down the moment something big isn't happening. Most of the -big- plots require help from other leaders outside the one clan. The Byn needs people to hire them before they can be ambushed by a huge army of gith. The Akai needs someone to hire them to make awesome stonework crap. The merchant houses need someone to have a need for their wares before they can order the awesome crap. The Templarate needs to gather enough support among the nobility (Or at least the staff acting as other, higher ranking, templars) before they can move on with their plan.

You can do small things, though, which can be fun - but they tend to not encompass your entire clan. Ordering your trusted troopers to pass word around, sleeping with the hot runner whom you expect to cause unrest in the rest of the unit as they try not to piss her off in hopes they wont piss you off, form a division in your ranks like the Cavaliers or something for special people,ect. But none of that really gets the same fun as the big plots it seems people are looking for.

Aside from that, there are the other activities that just happen on random chance. You can't promise they're going to happen until they happen. Half of the time, you don't even know they're happening until they're already midway to completion, which means that you can't really involve your clan unless they are actually on at time time - which again brings me to the point that they tend to drop off activity unless something big is already happening.

In summery: If you want to have your clan leaders be active, help by being active yourself. There's nothing that says you can't try to start plots yourself. Try bringing ideas to your leaders, I know for a fact when I'm playing a leader I'd love to do things I know others would enjoy rather than shooting wildly in the dark with potential ideas.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 14, 2014, 07:17:25 PM
Personally, I feel that unless it's a strictly military or mercenary clan, "clan schedules" should go the way of the dodo. On top of that, I remember that even in the military clans, it was nice to try and work the schedules so that there was a sensible balance of coded vs non-coded duties vs free time, etc. Realism should not be getting in the way of pushing plots and interacting with the playerbase.

Should already be the case, across the board, IIRC.  I am pretty sure that the only clans with formalized schedules are military-esque (so...four clans?).

As for coded vs. non-coded duties and free time, that was addressed in the Legions at least.  Here's what we laid out for that experiment:

There's a schedule; if no one is around, patrols or tavern watch or other public-facing duties supersede schedule.  If someone is around, a superior can supersede the schedule (this also means superiors can supersede your time off; take note).  For every 1.5 hours of play there are 30 minutes of time intended as time off or rest time or standby or get drunk time or mudsex time or whatever you want to call it.  If a PC wants extra time off they can take it from a certain rank up.  If they abuse that, then that gets addressed at that time.

On paper I think that works out okay.  I do not personally believe that any other clans should have schedules, but that's easy to say when I'm pretty sure they don't.

Not sure if this is still allowed but if no one is around they can get time their day off a virtual sergeant which is really huge imo.

I keep hearing about clan leadership and how whether the clans are good or not is their fault. This is bullshit. Everyone here is playing for their own enjoyment primarily and its no one responsibility to make the game fun for anyone else. Please do not put the responsibility on making the game enjoyable on the few sponsored people in the clan. Every player has ideas, every player can create plots and we all know at this point none of us, not even staff it seems can suddenly says I have this great epic plot idea and sudden it happens.  The people who have done so in the past, did so in the -past-, great shit can happen but takes time, work and dedication from from a number of staff and players.  That is unfortunately in some cases but that is the nature of the beast.It is also because it isn't solely up to the clan and leader to create fun for you, that the damn clan shouldn't be completely restricting you from creating your own fun. I have felt in the past military clans are way too restricting and dependent on a leader to break out of a very very boring routine. I think the legion struck a good balance of realistic training/routine and giving players the freedom to go do their own thing once in a while. Those changes would probably work even better in other clans.

There seems to be a war with independents OOCly that has been extending ICly. You want these people to be rarer, then you simply got to make joining a clan a more enjoyable experience. The greatest benefit to joining a clan is suppose to be plots and increased interaction, if a clan if failing to improve both these things then there is a problem. Pay and every other IC perk is just icing on the cake. You log in and are bored out of your mind because you aren't allowed to do shit and it wouldn't make sense ICly for you to do so anyways, because you are supposed to be lucky to be where you are.  Heck instead of being able to go to a location where you can interact with people (the selling point of this game), umm, no schedule says solo RP for the foreseeable, you are a twink if you skip it not to mention it might be unrealistic for your character concept to do so but then again boredom.  Again the changes with the legion helped a lot in that regard I think.

I've kinda said my peace with kadius and salarr, at their core they offer players the same time of experience. Do we really need two of them right now especially consider how enjoyable these two clans are when completely full? I would say no. Then again I got to ask myself if both clans, heck every clan was filled to the brim right now would I even be bringing this up?I keep thinking yes, because I believe in my heart it would make epic plots easier by merging these two clan with similar goals, instead of just splitting the plots between them. However, it is probably misguided of me to think this might be true since at the end these two clans simply offer the most freedom to go do your own shit as a perk more then anything else. That is really good in its own way.  The thoughts and comments were probably also inspired by what occurred with the tuluki noble houses too, somewhat making the experience in each more unique.  That said I rather not see anything change with the core experience kadius and salarr both offer.

There is also the idea that these things go in cycles, as if its okay that a player or two are stuck in a place or clan where they are bored out of their mind and have very little in the way of plots and/or interaction because someday it might change and things will liven up again. I really think that this type of thinking hurts the game in the long run because people get bored and probably find other more enjoyable ways to spend their time. That doesn't always mean they decide to potentially gamble their time again, store and create another character in a new location.  I don't know if there is anything that can be done about it at the end though and it isn't any person's fault when it happens but the game should try to find ways to minimize horrible experiences like that.

Editted: Due to gammar, and to add the last paragraph.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 14, 2014, 08:17:08 PM
I disagree, leaders can really make or break an experience. Yes, it's up to all of us to shoulder some weight, but the burden of leadership is greater than that of the lower ranks. I know, on other games, when I've found myself in a leadership position, I've taken it as my personal responsibility to insure the enjoyment of my employees, and I've taken it as a serious failure when I couldn't deliver. It seemed to work well, my groups would swell to pretty decent size. Eventually I would lose interest and turn it over to some other charismatic personality, but it just wouldn't be the same, I'd give it a RL month or two or three to see what happens, and sadly, it never becomes self sustaining, despite the time and effort I put into selecting and promoting people with ideas in line with mine.The new leadership becomes kind of bored or something and stops logging in so much and slowly things sink into anarchy, the group dynamic dissappears and trickles down, and the next thing you know, your organization has been robbed blind and has no members.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Law&Order on July 14, 2014, 08:37:39 PM
I keep hearing about clan leadership and how whether the clans are good or not is their fault. This is bullshit. Everyone here is playing for their own enjoyment primarily and its no one responsibility to make the game fun for anyone else. Please do not put the responsibility on making the game enjoyable on the few sponsored people in the clan. Every player has ideas, every player can create plots and we all know at this point none of us, not even staff it seems can suddenly says I have this great epic plot idea and sudden it happens.  The people who have done so in the past, did so in the -past-, great shit can happen but takes time, work and dedication from from a number of staff and players.  That is unfortunately in some cases but that is the nature of the beast.It is also because it isn't solely up to the clan and leader to create fun for you, that the damn clan shouldn't be completely restricting you from creating your own fun. I have felt in the past military clans are way too restricting and dependent on a leader to break out of a very very boring routine. I think the legion struck a good balance of realistic training/routine and giving players the freedom to go do their own thing once in a while. Those changes would probably work even better in other clans.

Sponsored leaders are in such a position because there is an expectation of the mentoring, guiding, moving and mobilizing the playerbase they are directly responsible for.  Yes, you're playing for you...but you're also playing for the role/concept/design set out before you.  Don't apply for the special role call if you don't want all of the drawbacks that come with the perks, there will always be someone else interested and in line.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 14, 2014, 10:40:11 PM
I just don't know if I'm capable of writing this response in a way that will retain its poignancy, yet magically not be horribly offensive to anyone.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 14, 2014, 10:50:10 PM
Let 'er rip.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 14, 2014, 10:59:34 PM
I feel like this "concern" that the clan is boring is really just indicative of how the game as a whole works. I've played plenty of indies that had incredibly boring spurts, too. Sometimes things come together and you have that "golden age" in a clan. Sometimes it's short lived and other times it lasts a while. It's a d20 roll, dudes. There are too many factors to really narrow it down to one or two "solutions" to make clans better. There is no silver bullet.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: CodeMaster on July 15, 2014, 01:19:03 AM
Too many factors, but I propose we use some space in this thread to construct a list of the elements we know are correlated with successful clans that people want to be in.  Chime in if you disagree (or have more to add)!:

Things that I think are high on the list:


Next... things that I (maybe contentiously) think are low on the list:


Footnotes:

Some folks above suggested mergers to create larger player populations.  But you could achieve the same effect if you temporarily closed one or two of the merchant houses to play, or "discouraged" joining one of them over the other, maybe in two or three month rotations.  Every clan has its niche, though, so this would be tricky.

Also, if clans had more things along the lines of archery lanes, obstacle courses, climbing walls - i.e. places to practice skills that are a little harder to practice safely as an independent - that would be a way to differentiate the clanned experience from the indie one.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: bcw81 on July 15, 2014, 01:27:55 AM
Too many factors, but I propose we use some space in this thread to construct a list of the elements we know are correlated with successful clans that people want to be in.  Chime in if you disagree (or have more to add)!:

Things that I think are high on the list:

  • A large population of other players to roleplay with
  • Opportunities to advance your character (skills, rank, membership to an elite squad, artifacts)
  • Leaders with inspiring roleplay
  • An opposing force (another city-state, or raiders, elves, or some other group) with a clearly delineated battlefield (the desert, the bazaar, the senate...)
  • A safe place to stow your gear like a packrat

Next... things that I (maybe contentiously) think are low on the list:

  • Free food/water (I guess it doesn't hurt, especially in the case of newbies)
  • High pay (harping on an earlier point)

Footnotes:

Some folks above suggested mergers to create larger player populations.  But you could achieve the same effect if you temporarily closed one or two of the merchant houses to play, or "discouraged" joining one of them over the other, maybe in two or three month rotations.  Every clan has its niche, though, so this would be tricky.

Also, if clans had more things along the lines of archery lanes, obstacle courses, climbing walls - i.e. places to practice skills that are a little harder to practice safely as an independent - that would be a way to differentiate the clanned experience from the indie one.
The one thing I really agree with here is the ability to be a part of an 'elite unit'. I think this was lost over the years, and not for the better.

Units like the Ivory Guard, the Kuraci Outriders, the Salarri Expedition Group (probably going by a similar, but different name) and all the other supergroups that were created back in the day were awesome. I know when I was playing my first real PC that didn't die in a month I wanted to be a part of one of them. I asked staff, I played for a long while, and I was told no - That spot in the clan was diverted permanently to the virtual world. It was a bit of a disappointment. I didn't want to be leadership - I knew I was too new for that - but I also didn't want to permanently be stuck in my current role. I know staff have been working on more lateral opportunities recently, and that's well and good, but there's always something that just feels good about being a part of a super awesome group of awesomeness.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 15, 2014, 02:45:56 AM
The first thing in this thread I fully agree with.

Quote
The one thing I really agree with here is the ability to be a part of an 'elite unit'. I think this was lost over the years, and not for the better.

Units like the Ivory Guard, the Kuraci Outriders, the Salarri Expedition Group (probably going by a similar, but different name) and all the other supergroups that were created back in the day were awesome. I know when I was playing my first real PC that didn't die in a month I wanted to be a part of one of them. I asked staff, I played for a long while, and I was told no - That spot in the clan was diverted permanently to the virtual world. It was a bit of a disappointment. I didn't want to be leadership - I knew I was too new for that - but I also didn't want to permanently be stuck in my current role. I know staff have been working on more lateral opportunities recently, and that's well and good, but there's always something that just feels good about being a part of a super awesome group of awesomeness.

To expand on that, if you are not going to have elite units, get rid of life oath.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barsook on July 15, 2014, 08:22:27 AM
Same here, with the elite group and getting rid of the life oath.  This will allow players to have reason to join a clan as a hunter.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 15, 2014, 08:30:23 AM
The first thing in this thread I fully agree with.

Quote
The one thing I really agree with here is the ability to be a part of an 'elite unit'. I think this was lost over the years, and not for the better.

Units like the Ivory Guard, the Kuraci Outriders, the Salarri Expedition Group (probably going by a similar, but different name) and all the other supergroups that were created back in the day were awesome. I know when I was playing my first real PC that didn't die in a month I wanted to be a part of one of them. I asked staff, I played for a long while, and I was told no - That spot in the clan was diverted permanently to the virtual world. It was a bit of a disappointment. I didn't want to be leadership - I knew I was too new for that - but I also didn't want to permanently be stuck in my current role. I know staff have been working on more lateral opportunities recently, and that's well and good, but there's always something that just feels good about being a part of a super awesome group of awesomeness.

To expand on that, if you are not going to have elite units, get rid of life oath.

Yes these elite. limited supergroups were what made being in a GMH clan so exciting. Not even just being in them, but rather, knowing that they existed, and were available for PCs to get in, and knowing that your character might not earn the right to get in it, but could try.

It was something "other" than just being promoted to Sergeant because the last Sergeant got killed on a field expedition, or assassinated in town, or their player joined the Navy and had to store, etc. Promotion by default is okay, if you don't mind being -put- in a leadership position you didn't specifically apply for, and only because you're the only one available with enough rank to promote. But those supergroups were something you as a player AND your character could vie for, something that was extra-special and something only the cool kids could claim.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 15, 2014, 08:33:31 AM
Not so sure about the join part, but more reason to stay.

Although, I am on the fence about if the elite clan groups should be life oath or not.

Leaning more towards not, because life oath is silly all the way around...Oh, it is so you can trust your employee you say...I say I trust those less.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 15, 2014, 08:50:44 AM
Not so sure about the join part, but more reason to stay.

Although, I am on the fence about if the elite clan groups should be life oath or not.

Leaning more towards not, because life oath is silly all the way around...Oh, it is so you can trust your employee you say...I say I trust those less.

I think Barsook's point was more about the player motivation, rather than the character motivation. The players would want to join the clan, because of the existence of a supergroup their character might earn the right to be part of, some day.

Not that the character would join so they can be elite. The character might not even know about a particular elite group (such as the Archives of a decade ago).  This would make it more attractive to the -player-. So his character could have the "Hey this is Kadius, how awesome!" mentality, and their player wouldn't think "oh jeez, not another Kadian."
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barsook on July 15, 2014, 08:58:37 AM
Not so sure about the join part, but more reason to stay.

Although, I am on the fence about if the elite clan groups should be life oath or not.

Leaning more towards not, because life oath is silly all the way around...Oh, it is so you can trust your employee you say...I say I trust those less.

I think Barsook's point was more about the player motivation, rather than the character motivation. The players would want to join the clan, because of the existence of a supergroup their character might earn the right to be part of, some day.

It was.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 15, 2014, 09:06:23 AM
I wrote about this already before (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47178.0.html) and here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47179.0.html)). It has been a bit, so we can reassess and see if it is working and then (as some have suggested elsewhere (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47179.msg810650.html#msg810650)) see if it would be a good idea to export the core ideas (not just copy/paste, but come up with local versions/local flavor) to clans that may need it.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 15, 2014, 09:49:35 AM
Quote
Also, if clans had more things along the lines of archery lanes, obstacle courses, climbing walls - i.e. places to practice skills that are a little harder to practice safely as an independent - that would be a way to differentiate the clanned experience from the indie one.

On paper, I love this idea, because it's an unspoken formality a lot of the time that if you are joining a clan, you are saying goodbye to a lot of opportunities to raise certain skills - scan, climb, archery, and occasionally sneak and hide.

In practice, I'd like to see those obstacle courses exist - but for members who have proven themselves at least semi-loyal to a clan - the version of a Kuraci mercenary. Not a shit-kicking recruit, but not necessarily lifesworn, either.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Cutthroat on July 15, 2014, 10:07:04 AM
As tempting as it is to blame one of the smallest groups of players for problems with the game as a whole, I don't think players of sponsored leaders have total control of any problems with clans. For every "bad" sponsored leader who is ineffective or uninvolved, there are at least as many "bad" employee players who get bored, go into the Labyrinth/Grey Forest/Silt Sea and die or store or, in general, starts playing a troublemaker thinking it will at least make something happen in the clan, but in the long-term ends up being destructive and crippling for activity. I put "bad" in quotes because these are not necessarily bad things for a player to do since there are possible IC justifications, and storing is never actually a bad thing. My overall point is that enjoyment of clans comes with a stipulation or two  - patience, and/or willingness to make fun for yourself at least sometimes. And while I can understand being bored, giving up halfway through your recruit period to kill poor people and gigantic animals because you don't want to RP latrine duty anymore is questionable when there are other ways to leave a clan and other ways to have fun, even if you feel that takes making a new character to do so.

But I'm not even going to pretend that even that is a big problem, when there are players who don't join clans at all because of a perception from the outside that clans are boring and/or not worth the effort. A good clan experience counts on active leadership, active minions and active players outside of the clan. I would say that most of the time, the conditions in the game are perfect for a good clan experience but that players sometimes seem reluctant to give it a try when it is safer to not take the plunge. A lot of the perceived problems in the game can be solved by more players trying new things and taking some risks, not avoiding clans/play areas/sponsored roles because it didn't work out one time.

As for life oaths, those are tricky because there is very little IC reason to reject an offer of one, and in the clans that have life oaths, they are basically the hurdle to get over before your clan leader starts to "trust" you with the important stuff. It shows not only that your character is capable, but that you the player can play a consistent character for 4-6 weeks. I say "trust" because it's part-actual trust and part-just knowing your character will likely be around long enough to do things with. Also, a life oath offer is basically the leader saying to the clan member, "Hey, you've been a great employee - do you want this awesome job for the rest of your life or would you rather go back to being a poor unknown commoner?" 99.9% of people who got that far in a House would take that, given that ideals like freedom of choice and high-paying jobs are not usually a luxury that people have in Zalanthas. I guess it ties back into the problems with unrealistic expectations and entitlement, which goes back even further to the game economy and wealth and power not being special or particularly difficult to get.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 15, 2014, 10:34:53 AM
I agree completely and I'd also like to add that the pressure on clan leaders to be leaders, rather than characters who happen to lead, is destructive to the fun of the role, and a definite cause for burnout. Please, please don't treat your clan leaders like plot and item dispensers.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: manonfire on July 15, 2014, 11:02:38 AM
As one of the players that had a PC in the Salarr Expansion Division, I can tell you unequivocally that it worked, it was amazing, and it was the most enjoyable experience I've ever had as a player in 12 years of dicking around here.

So, you guys should bring it (and another specialized divisions like it) back to the game, cause honestly, we're all here to have fun. Wanna make clans a unique, awesome experience for players? The answer is wagons. Or argosies. Or whatever.

Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 15, 2014, 11:05:48 AM
There's only one sure way to regard independent wealth without twisting the game into knots. Do away with bank accounts for non clanned pcs. As tough as that sounds, it would effectively remove the ability to retain massive amounts of liquid coin. It wouldn't keep it from being possible ... just way harder. Since your clanned pcs would have those bank accounts, that would prove a ginormous benefit of joining a clan.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: racurtne on July 15, 2014, 11:22:17 AM
There's only one sure way to regard independent wealth without twisting the game into knots. Do away with bank accounts for non clanned pcs. As tough as that sounds, it would effectively remove the ability to retain massive amounts of liquid coin. It wouldn't keep it from being possible ... just way harder. Since your clanned pcs would have those bank accounts, that would prove a ginormous benefit of joining a clan.

I do like this. Poor Nenyuk probably wouldn't though! They love unclaimed indy coins.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 15, 2014, 11:33:31 AM
There's only one sure way to regard independent wealth without twisting the game into knots. Do away with bank accounts for non clanned pcs. As tough as that sounds, it would effectively remove the ability to retain massive amounts of liquid coin. It wouldn't keep it from being possible ... just way harder. Since your clanned pcs would have those bank accounts, that would prove a ginormous benefit of joining a clan.

I do like this. Poor Nenyuk probably wouldn't though! They love unclaimed indy coins.

Introducing Amos's First Half-Giant Bank of Red Storm.  Not as secure as Nenyuk but at least you don't have to carry it around yourself.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 15, 2014, 11:41:12 AM
There's only one sure way to regard independent wealth without twisting the game into knots. Do away with bank accounts for non clanned pcs. As tough as that sounds, it would effectively remove the ability to retain massive amounts of liquid coin. It wouldn't keep it from being possible ... just way harder. Since your clanned pcs would have those bank accounts, that would prove a ginormous benefit of joining a clan.

While I see the spirit behind the idea, the IC reality is that Nenyuk is gonna take anybody's coin who's got coin. When is a clan a "clan" and when is a clan not a clan?

Does a tribe count? What if you have a virtual tribe? What about a merchant group that isn't a GMH but still deals in tens of thousands of coins? Etc, etc.

Automating the ability for Templars to demand the balance of someone standing in the bank with them, though, that could be handy.

>check account amos
The Nenyuki clerk looks over the tall, muscular man, checks a ledger, then eventually nods.
The Nenyuki clerk says, in sirihish:
     "Amos has 30,000 obsidian in his bank account."

"Oh, you've got 30,000 sid in the bank? How fortunate for both of us. You get to live a little while longer, and I get a 20,000 donation to my Fund the War collection. Your contribution to society is noted and appreciated, citizen."
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 15, 2014, 11:43:17 AM
YAAAARRRR....Yes, ED was great fun, even through a few waves of players, it kept being fun.


Life oath, See now, that is my problem...how does that equal trust? To me a life oath PC is MORE likely to betray...partly because they have nothing better to do, partly because they are above suspicion. I can name MANY PCs that took advantage of that, some of them are VERY well known.

My leaders trust the contract PCs more...least they know they are walking a line. And it does not take much to make sure that the PC, should they betray the clan, never gets another job...and meanwhile put a bounty on them for shits and giggles.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 15, 2014, 12:10:53 PM
I also wish they brought back the elite groups. It adds some room for people to move up and not be stuck in the same job forever, allowing natural trickling up of ranks. Especially in certain clans where the Sergeant levels are alive for years rl. And just good for the type that covet that kind of thing.

Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 15, 2014, 12:18:55 PM
I really agree with the skills. Arguably warrior, ranger and assassin are some of the most popular mundane classes too. Warriors of course get to train disarm so that is a nice perk of joining a clan.

With scan, i can see hidden guards in the barracks to help. And also special dummies  that would allow you to train archery and throw to max if you got the rank for it, that would make a life oath definitely worth it.

With assassins, your options for training backstab and later sap have always been pretty bad I felt, you got animals on one side, and stabbing innocent people on the other. You would think the clan like the militia would have masters who would be happy to train the next generation of assassins. Just like a hunter could go out backstab an animal once or twice a RL day, perhaps there could be teachers in these clans that are willing to teach these skills in the barracks once or twice a RL day. That would be a huge incentive for a lot of people to join these clans. I can see this making sense for militia on either side, perhaps kurac and noble houses too.

Again not having to risk your life training you skills, not having to train as long to get as good as an independent and being much more efficient sound really good to me while improving the quality of RP and helping interaction seem pretty great to me.  


As for elite groups....kuraci outriders, i miss thee.  :'(

Editted to add: So long as the elite positions are earned in the game. They should almost be an award within the clan. There should never really be any reason to role call people in order to roll characters that would start off in those elite groups.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: bcw81 on July 15, 2014, 01:57:31 PM
I wrote about this already before (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47178.0.html) and here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47179.0.html)). It has been a bit, so we can reassess and see if it is working and then (as some have suggested elsewhere (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47179.msg810650.html#msg810650)) see if it would be a good idea to export the core ideas (not just copy/paste, but come up with local versions/local flavor) to clans that may need it.
I really like what's happening with the legion and the Levies. That said, it's not the same as being told to come into the pyramid with the templar, slice your hand open with the blade all your forebearers used, and dedicate yourself to the Sun King. It is the specialness of those divisions, and the bragging rights to getting in, that make them sound super fun. The way the Legions have been set up now to allow new 'perks' to the ranks is awesome, but they can never hope to live up to the name of the Ivory Guard.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: solera on July 15, 2014, 03:18:31 PM
YAAAARRRR....Yes, ED was great fun, even through a few waves of players, it kept being fun.


Life oath, See now, that is my problem...how does that equal trust? To me a life oath PC is MORE likely to betray...partly because they have nothing better to do, partly because they are above suspicion. I can name MANY PCs that took advantage of that, some of them are VERY well known.

My leaders trust the contract PCs more...least they know they are walking a line. And it does not take much to make sure that the PC, should they betray the clan, never gets another job...and meanwhile put a bounty on them for shits and giggles.


Why share an apartment when you can kank in a Kuraci booth?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: JustAnotherGuy on July 15, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
Byn- No idea. Though it would be nice if I could hire a trooper to watch my back while grebbing or escort me from one place to another without having to talk to the sergeant, since i just want one trooper, not the entire unit. I think troopers should be allowed to take on very small solo contracts at their own discretion. Not sure if that would work out given their schedules. I'm sure other people have better ideas for them, assuming they need anything at all. Being in the byn isn't really luxurious sought after work after all.

Man I love this idea so hard.  I would be playing Byn a lot if I could do things like this.  I mean, with the permission of the Sergeant of course and I toss up a percent of pay to the Sergeant.  This would make the Byn so much more accessible and give off peakers something more to do.

EDIT:  I came into this thread WAY late and didn't read anything but the first page of threads.  SO yeah....
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Riev on July 15, 2014, 07:13:51 PM
Ahh, the hoops I jumped through to be an Ivory Guard, up to and including currying favor with about 20000 different PC Jihaens (during one of those heavy rotation periods). Alas, it was not to be.


In regards to Life Oaths and benefits, Slavery/Life Oaths are great in theory, but in practice they have not and anecdotally are not proving to be a useful addition. I remember when a year in the Byn, and a recommendation from them, meant more than an ENTIRE YEAR'S worth of recruitment. I remember when serving in Salarr for a full-term contract meant they would support your decision to move on, if you did, and that recommendation meant a lot so far as pay and responsibilities in your next endeavor.


Some people don't need the coded benefits of joining a clan, they're looking for what that clan brings them. A 20 year veteran of the Legion should be able to leave the military's service, on good conditions, and be able to get a job most ANYWHERE (with proper Templarate scrutiny). Same as a 10year Salarri Hunter. 10 years as a hunter is a long time to stay alive, that IC "commendation" should mean a lot. And if you don't know what I mean, how many have gone through:

"Oh so you're a 5year GMH veteran, huh? Looking to join <Noble House>? Well. By the docs, you're just a Recruit, but MAYBE if you do good I can make you a full member in one less month than normal."

"Yeah, but I spent five years working towards this end, I am the perfect, loyal employee."

"No, by the docs you are no better than a Recruit, your experience and recommendations mean nothing, but you get free food/water so why are you bitching?"
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 15, 2014, 07:23:18 PM
Some people don't need the coded benefits of joining a clan, they're looking for what that clan brings them. A 20 year veteran of the Legion should be able to leave the military's service, on good conditions, and be able to get a job most ANYWHERE (with proper Templarate scrutiny). Same as a 10year Salarri Hunter. 10 years as a hunter is a long time to stay alive, that IC "commendation" should mean a lot.

Any soldier PC who has managed to put 20 years in to the role and not been a total flake has probably learned enough sensitive shit that they should be fireballed/karate-chopped if they ever seriously pursue leaving their respective militia. Same for other clans: your PC should know enough about your employers and their business that you're too dangerous to let loose on the Known.

In conclusion, people who can't handle being life sworn are pussies and are probably breeds.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on July 15, 2014, 07:59:31 PM
In conclusion, people who can't handle being life sworn are not only pussies and are probably breeds or breed lovers, but positively without a doubt shouldn't be working for Templars much less Sorcerer Kings (and Muk).

FTFYNooB

Choosing not to be in a clan should be a death sentence. That would change EVERYTHING.

Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 15, 2014, 08:10:46 PM
I kept trying to think of a way to phrase a response, but I can't, so I'm just going to go with a loose equivalent of my expression.

(http://filmfixx.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/filmfixx.jpg)
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 15, 2014, 08:37:14 PM
It should be entirely dependent on the IC circumstances. I can see exceptions to both sides.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 15, 2014, 08:38:49 PM
I'm pretty sure they're (mostly) joking, D.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fathi on July 16, 2014, 01:26:00 AM
"Oh so you're a 5year GMH veteran, huh? Looking to join <Noble House>? Well. By the docs, you're just a Recruit, but MAYBE if you do good I can make you a full member in one less month than normal."

"Yeah, but I spent five years working towards this end, I am the perfect, loyal employee."

"No, by the docs you are no better than a Recruit, your experience and recommendations mean nothing, but you get free food/water so why are you bitching?"

To be fair, from the perspective of someone hiring a dude like that, you also have to take into account that the world our characters inhabit is full of really shady, shifty people. So you're running a crew of Tor Scorpions, and a guy comes to you who worked for House Salarr for 10 years.

"So, can you tell me why you left House Salarr?"

"Well I spent ten years working toward this end and I am the perfect, loyal employee, but I just didn't want to work for them anymore."

"After ten years you just decided you didn't want to work there anymore?"

"Yeah, I'd rather be a Scorpion."

Now that PC may be perfectly honest--maybe he got sick of hunting, maybe he recently got a new boss in Salarr and the new boss sucked, but the clan leader hiring you is not thinking about those things. The Tor Warlord doing the interview is thinking about how cozy Lady Oash is with Salarr or maybe he's thinking about the time he pissed off a Salarr Agent a couple years ago, and he's wondering if this potential recruit is really as innocent as he seems.

So we end up at:

"No, by the docs you are no better than a Recruit, your experience and recommendations mean nothing, but you get free food/water so why are you bitching? because I have no reason to trust your ass and possibly several reasons NOT to."
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 16, 2014, 02:14:55 AM
Um...alrighht...that is cute, now let us do a real scenario.

Lord tor does not even consider if he pissed off some salarri commoner in the past...he has pissed off many commoners. A commoner is a commoner...the risk with one is as good or bad as the risk with another. Now if this guy worked for a different noble house there might be an issue.

Then there is the player behind lord tor...let us assume he "lord tor" has been around a while. He has hired many people.....mostt of which quickly died...stored...stole..sucked...whatever. and here he gets a proven pc...already skilled..outfitted and able to follow the rules.

Rather a no brainer and worth the risk.

Not to mention...there was a time nearly everybody had to do at least a byn stint to land the good jobs...and after that many had to spend time in the tor academy.
No real difference.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: LauraMars on July 16, 2014, 02:26:59 AM
Fathi's scenario was hypothetical but logical.  Ten Year Salarr Employee may only be a commoner...but he's a commoner with a lot of deep ties to a powerful organization - maybe he has contacts and friends in the north after so long as a GMH employee.  Maybe a lot of things.  I wouldn't immediately promote the fellow to Tor Scorpion just because he'd shown he could be trusted by another organization, because the very fact that he WAS trusted so well by this other organization would raise red flags with me.

This could be an asset or a drawback, but either way, probably best to stick with the regular initiation period until you find out.  That's how I'd play it, anyway.

In my opinion, I'd say there is a pretty big difference between training in the Byn for 1 year and working for a GMH for a decade.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 16, 2014, 02:38:42 AM
Seems I missed that one point...of course they go through normal recruit period...that is evaluation and silly to bypass.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fathi on July 16, 2014, 02:45:35 AM
Seems I missed that one point...of course they go through normal recruit period...that is evaluation and silly to bypass.

Then we completely agree.  ;D
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 17, 2014, 06:49:06 AM
I wrote about this already before (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47178.0.html) and here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47179.0.html)). It has been a bit, so we can reassess and see if it is working and then (as some have suggested elsewhere (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47179.msg810650.html#msg810650)) see if it would be a good idea to export the core ideas (not just copy/paste, but come up with local versions/local flavor) to clans that may need it.

While it would make sense to create those separate discussion threads in the respective clan forums, I'm hoping you'll consider placing them on the general discussion forums instead after reassessing. I do think the other clans need some of the love the legion got, especially in terms schedule changes at the very least. Again just being able to request a day off is huge. However giving each their own flavor is a really good idea, so it would be great to see the entire community participating on what would really make these clans shine and a pleasure to be involved in, instead of the discussion being restricted to the few people who might currently be members of the clan.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Riev on July 17, 2014, 11:12:01 AM
My point was not that people should be, automatically, some high-ranking official in a clan just based on time spent in another. My point was that IN MY ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE, the only thing that experienced person gets is the POSSIBILITY of a reduced recruitment (which leader PCs have even said might not happen, and offhandedly mentioned it was a House Rule). And then once you ARE a "full" clannie, there's no "fast track to Officer" or anything, because you still have to spend a requisite amount of time.

I get that the world is full of shady people, but who wouldn't want a 3year Byn Veteran, 5 year Salarr veteran, etc in their ranks? If you can't trust them, kill them. The point is that if you hire someone that has been in the Byn for a while, they have credentials. They have a reputable clan saying "They are good at their job". That was my point. That maybe joining a clan that DOESN'T require life oaths, is a way of building your reputation and if you do a good job, they will give you a recommendation. It was even in the Salarri docs (if it isn't still) that "those employees that fulfill the maximum term contract can leave the House with a full recommendation from their leadership".
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 17, 2014, 11:53:03 AM
Basically how I feel Riev.

To me, hiring an unknown is more risky then hiring a known.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Riev on July 17, 2014, 01:11:42 PM
So then perhaps that can be something looked at, insofar as documentation for clans, to help increase the "playability" and "benefits" of joining a clan?

I get that people are shady, and the tagline for the game includes the oft-underused "betrayal". But like X-D said, some Noble isn't going to give a shit that a piddly commoner is being a jerkwad. A commoner is a commoner is a commoner, unless that commoner comes with some MILDLY respectable recommendation. I just feel like credentials should be a thing, not "I want to join Salarr because they have a good Merchant right now" but "I want to join a GMH because after a term of service there, I can get hired ANYWHERE."

This might also stop the "clans hire every PC they see because numbers are low". People would WANT to join a Levy situation, or a GMH, or the Byn because of what it OFFERS. Does anyone remember when people would join the Byn for the SOLE PURPOSE of a year's worth of training? Nobles paying for their employees to go through a year, because 300 coins is a pittance compared to the water, food, and dumbassery they'd have to put up with from an untrained idiot?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 17, 2014, 01:18:26 PM
So then perhaps that can be something looked at, insofar as documentation for clans, to help increase the "playability" and "benefits" of joining a clan?

I get that people are shady, and the tagline for the game includes the oft-underused "betrayal". But like X-D said, some Noble isn't going to give a shit that a piddly commoner is being a jerkwad. A commoner is a commoner is a commoner, unless that commoner comes with some MILDLY respectable recommendation. I just feel like credentials should be a thing, not "I want to join Salarr because they have a good Merchant right now" but "I want to join a GMH because after a term of service there, I can get hired ANYWHERE."

This might also stop the "clans hire every PC they see because numbers are low". People would WANT to join a Levy situation, or a GMH, or the Byn because of what it OFFERS. Does anyone remember when people would join the Byn for the SOLE PURPOSE of a year's worth of training? Nobles paying for their employees to go through a year, because 300 coins is a pittance compared to the water, food, and dumbassery they'd have to put up with from an untrained idiot?

I remember the Byn used to be completely different than it is now, sure didn't take long. Maybe that has something to do with it... I doubt it, but it may play a small role in the decisions of those who would consider having the Byn train their potential recruit/servant/what have you.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 17, 2014, 02:11:07 PM
I remember when everybody who wanted to be anybody had to do Byn time and often Tor academy time. At least in the south.

For instance...back around 1999, I had a dwarf, he wanted to join Tor...So he met with Gold, if anybody remembers him. During the interview it came out that my dwarf had no references...So Gold paid for him to join the Byn for a year.
I put in that year, had a good time, then went back to Gold who recruited my dwarf too Tor. My dwarf was in Tor for more then 15 game years, eventually making LT and having his own crew...ALL of which he sent to the Byn. During those years he  met many people. Some you have heard of because often, at the time, to join Oash or Borsail not only did you have to do Byn time, you also had to do Tor academy time. I rather doubt Pearl would have done all the things she did without her Tor time.

Then, Pearl started the Atrium...I suppose her thinking was, Tor should be training guards and other bloody types and not Aides, A good idea I guess.

The odd thing to me is...though I understand why all this went away back when our player numbers were much lower...I really do not understand, with the current almost double player count and half the clans...it has not come back.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barsook on July 17, 2014, 02:23:33 PM
I was wondering the same thoughts about the Atrium.  And also on the sponsorship should be more common for these combat-based clans, even the milliata.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 17, 2014, 03:04:07 PM
I think part of the problem currently being discussed is that the PC leadership of any clan has gotten too possessive.

Clans that have a lifeoath as an option and not a requirement seem to (ab)use it in order to secure every single member that might have proven useful, instead of only offering it to truly proven and exceptional individuals who themselves have expressed a desire to serve a clan in such a capacity. A lifeoath used to be a momentous occasion in a character's life, and for the clan as well. And while it was often (but not always) a requirement for certain high-level promotions, it was more akin to receiving a medal of honor and less like signing your life over in blood on the dotted line. Today it seems like it's a requirement before even the slightest measure of trust can be offered. And God help you if you seem to even give pause to such an offer from a clan, you can become a potential spy or enemy to be hawked over day and night for the slightest misstep.

In a Noble House the above behavior is a bit more justified, but in a GMH that kind of pressure shouldn't usually exist. In parallel, even clans such as the Byn seem to be more possessive of their membership. Once it was understood that for 99% of cases the Byn was a stepping stone to the next stage of a character's life, akin to honored credentials as others have stated. Instead of taking every half-decent poor sap with coin in their hands, the Byn today seem to give more consideration to the long-term benefits they might receive from someone and less to the fact most of their Runners are simply coin pouches to be had before they fall off the Shield Wall. This could be a result of hiring caps as well, but if that's the case I would hope staff would consider the nature of the Byn and what its meant to serve in the game's ecosystem. At least where the hiring of Runners is concerned, such a cap is detrimental if it exists.

In addressing this, having the option to retire honorably from a lifeoath in just about any clan would likely help the situation. Not only in the sense that such characters could still continue their life's story outside of a clan they've served with dedication, but also in enforcing the idea to current and future PC leaders that a lifeoath in and of itself isn't just a tool to ensure trust or participation. But rather an award for those who've already displayed such.

This is all of course anecdotal opinion, and the treatment of lifeoaths does vary from PC leader to PC leader, but it's a trend that at least I've personally noticed over the past few years. It's also not the sole cause that's led to some of the problems discussed here, but it's one piece of the puzzle in my opinion. The pushing of the idea that prior experience should be taken as a beneficial thing instead of looked at suspiciously is definitely another piece of the puzzle.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barsook on July 17, 2014, 03:07:11 PM
I agree with the honorable retirement and it's already happening in the Legions.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: bcw81 on July 17, 2014, 03:52:50 PM
Exactly how many people have ever had a non-noble PC live longer than the 30 odd years you'd expect to put in a clan before retirement? I see this as so much of a non-issue to everyone who isn't X-D that I guess I'm not properly seeing why its a problem to begin with.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 17, 2014, 03:59:11 PM
Exactly how many people have ever had a non-noble PC live longer than the 30 odd years you'd expect to put in a clan before retirement? I see this as so much of a non-issue to everyone who isn't X-D that I guess I'm not properly seeing why its a problem to begin with.

You're assuming that people think 30 years is a reasonable number. I'd be curious to hear what the pro-retirement folks think is a "Reasonable" amount of time to spend in a clan before being let out. From people's examples it sounds like it's less than ten.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 17, 2014, 04:14:59 PM
If I'm Joe Kadius and First Hunter Amos wants to jump ship because he's tired of working for me I'm going to thank him for his service, and politely tell him to fuck off (figuratively).

Clans don't require you to life swear immediately. Don't life swear if you don't want to commit to that clan.

It's a huge blow to a clan leader a when long-time trusted/skilled PC disappears/leaves/dies/stores/whatever.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 17, 2014, 04:16:49 PM
I don't think the 'byn is too possessive. It's just got big numbers and interaction and fun. Built in conflict.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 17, 2014, 04:28:47 PM
But everything true today will be different tomorrow,  when the current leaders are replaced by the next ones, no?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 17, 2014, 05:35:07 PM
You're assuming that people think 30 years is a reasonable number. I'd be curious to hear what the pro-retirement folks think is a "Reasonable" amount of time to spend in a clan before being let out. From people's examples it sounds like it's less than ten.

I don't think that's something you can put a number to in stone, as it's going to vary between the organization and individuals in question. As far as rule-setting goes, I think simply stating that lifesworn members have the option to honorably retire from their position/clan is enough. Context matters in this situation, and generally speaking the more freedom placed in the hands of PC leadership the better. An AoD or Legion Sergeant retiring after 30 years of service has different implications than a lifesworn Salarri Corporal retiring after 10 years. Especially when the actual years spent lifesworn will vary from character to character.

It's a huge blow to a clan leader a when long-time trusted/skilled PC disappears/leaves/dies/stores/whatever.

I agree that it's a blow, particularly on the OOC end. Because realistically on the IC end that member is just one face in a sea, no matter how talented they are. That said, currently for a lifesworn character who's reached the end of his career in a clan, the only viable options are to die or store. So while I appreciate the sense of loss for a leader, and believe me I've been there as well, I think refusing to let a character move on with their lives comes down to, "If I can't have you, no one can." And that's a fairly negative and "meta" approach to this.

But everything true today will be different tomorrow,  when the current leaders are replaced by the next ones, no?

In some cases, yes. But trends form and can have long-term effects. Someone who's a follower today might be a leader tomorrow, and they're just as likely to emulate what they saw from the leadership above them, as they are to rock the boat. In that sense PC leaders are always responsible for the effect they have on the game.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 17, 2014, 05:54:55 PM
I'd be all about treating employees like faceless minions until they've been around for 6+ years and are super amazing, but that's not the world we play in. It's a leader's prerogative to treat their employees as they see fit to their own and staff's current desires. Leadership PCs are just a cog in the wheel and should theoretically "stay in their lane". Running their own crew is their "lane", so I say a leader can do whatever-the-fuck they want so long as staff is happy with how docs are being represented.

You can't just expect leadership players to want to pour all this effort into folks without an expectation of return in some way. I've gotten to the point with my leadership PCs where I don't hire people that are even "iffy". I just don't have the energy for poor player behavior, dying to scrabs, or whatever's on my pet peeve list for the week. And that's how I run things. If you don't like it, there's other places to go.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 17, 2014, 06:37:04 PM
In parallel, even clans such as the Byn seem to be more possessive of their membership. Once it was understood that for 99% of cases the Byn was a stepping stone to the next stage of a character's life, akin to honored credentials as others have stated. Instead of taking every half-decent poor sap with coin in their hands, the Byn today seem to give more consideration to the long-term benefits they might receive from someone and less to the fact most of their Runners are simply coin pouches to be had before they fall off the Shield Wall. This could be a result of hiring caps as well, but if that's the case I would hope staff would consider the nature of the Byn and what its meant to serve in the game's ecosystem. At least where the hiring of Runners is concerned, such a cap is detrimental if it exists.

Here is a letter in reply from staff that I got for expressing this exact or almost exact concern.

The Byn has not been restructured; off-peakers can still become Troopers. For some background, we recently introduced (well, it was around before, but we re-iterated) a regulation that Byn units should not grow larger than about 5 or 6 Troopers and Runners per Sergeant. 300 sid buys your way in to the Byn, but to stay around past that you must prove you will be useful to the Company in some capacity. Typically this means playing actively and attending contracts. We understand for off-peak that can be difficult, but that's why we try to have multiple units/Sarges and make sure some Byn work happens off-peak too. If we had a situation where an off-peak Bynner was playing regularly and just wasn't able to make any contracts or connect with a Sergeant because of playtimes, staff will step in to bridge the gap. So have no fear, if you ever decide to join the Byn again in the future!

I wanted to add in that these were Rahnevyn's words, but I imagine its still the opinion of all the Byn staff.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 17, 2014, 06:38:45 PM


It's a huge blow to a clan leader a when long-time trusted/skilled PC disappears/leaves/dies/stores/whatever.

I agree that it's a blow, particularly on the OOC end. Because realistically on the IC end that member is just one face in a sea, no matter how talented they are.


Where I disagree with you is here. I don't think treating the people with whom your pc works most closely on a daily basis like a face in the crowd sounds like a much fun for either leaders or minions. I think it's a lot more fun to take them as you find them. If they act like a nobody face in the crowd, I don't want them to swear. I'm more than happy to let them move along. The sooner the better. You may feel differently. But I've never enjoyed working with that type of leader. I don't want to be one.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 17, 2014, 06:54:28 PM
You can't just expect leadership players to want to pour all this effort into folks without an expectation of return in some way.

I think the characters we're discussing already have returned the efforts of their leadership with their own efforts at contribution. Someone isn't (or shouldn't be) lifesworn or given rank in general if they haven't proven themselves valuable contributors. Someone who's invested years and years of IC service to a clan has met and exceeded the expectations of leadership, by sticking around and being valued members of the clan, instead of going off and dying to scrab or exhibiting poor behavior or whatever else might be on the pet peeve list of PC leaders that week. As it stands being lifesworn is rewarding such exceptional players with, "Thanks for all you've done. In fact, you've done such a good job, you can forget about ever leaving. If you ever reach a point where this clan no longer feels right for your character, whatever your reasons, go fall off the Shield Wall or store."

...For some background, we recently introduced (well, it was around before, but we re-iterated) a regulation that Byn units should not grow larger than about 5 or 6 Troopers and Runners per Sergeant.

Well, that definitely sounds like something that could stand being re-examined. I think it's a reasonable policy for Troopers, but far too limiting for Runners. There are periods where there's only one active Sarge, and that policy would effectively block characters who aren't looking to stay on-board as a Trooper but want to serve their year in order to become a more valuable asset to another clan.

Where I disagree with you is here. I don't think treating the people with whom your pc works most closely on a daily basis like a face in the crowd sounds like a much fun for either leaders or minions. I think it's a lot more fun to take them as you find them. If they act like a nobody face in the crowd, I don't want them to swear. I'm more than happy to let them move along. The sooner the better. You may feel differently. But I've never enjoyed working with that type of leader. I don't want to be one.

I don't think we're in disagreement. I wasn't implying you can't or shouldn't treat employees under you as individuals on a day-to-day basis. I was saying that when faced with special circumstances such as the ones we're discussing (a lifesworn retiring), that character is often an OOC staple of the clan and thus their retirement might be painful on an OOC level, but from an IC standpoint they're still one among others. The Sarge of a GMH retiring for example can be painful to the PCs of the clan because they might be the only Sarge, but IC that's just one unit. A high-level PC leader should always try to look at the bigger picture of the clan they're running.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 17, 2014, 07:27:42 PM
Gotcha. Fair enough.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 17, 2014, 08:20:24 PM
I think maybe one of the reasons the Byn is like this now is because, during the first war HRPT and for a good while after, the Byn was so fucking packed it was ridiculous. Maybe staff felt like the Byn offered -too- much while other, equally good for combat skilling clans went empty or one-and-twos, its just that everyone's forgotten those clans can offer the skilling and company and safety and danger with how much more relatively and in-your-face available the Byn is. So, they think to themselves, what's a rational way to cut down on numbers that won't cut down by themselves in the near future? And voila.

Course, I'm not a mind-reader, but you know. I'm just sure staff wouldn't make things more restrictive without a good reason.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 17, 2014, 09:07:53 PM
I imagine that's something easily solved by keeping a cap on Troopers and lifting it from Runners. If the cap has been met, Runners could have the option to either remain in their current rank past their first years until an opening exists, or can graduate and move on from the clan. In the context of something like an HRPT, I imagine the clan's participation would be limited to Troopers if it was found disruptive.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Harmless on July 17, 2014, 09:33:23 PM
It's a huge blow to a clan leader a when long-time trusted/skilled PC disappears/leaves/dies/stores/whatever.

PC clan members' being lost is often a huge blow. Threatening your clan members with negative consequences of leaving, to create a feeling of being trapped, often leads to recklessness and not caring. If you let your employees feel like they were the masters of their own fate, and that unless they betrayed their current masters that they won't be unreasonably hunted down, so that they can leave whenever they want, will not make them feel trapped. They'll be more dedicated to their cause, eagerly looking forward to a time that their PC isn't a Salarri, for example, and therefore be more likely to survive to see that day come.

I'm sure this has already been said in effect but I can't state it enough. I know for a fact that some GMH do not allow promotion past a certain point without a life oath. I haven't posted much on this thread but I will say it with certainty, especially based on Ouroboros' posts and my own experiences with GMH: the GMH have got to raise the promotion cap for non-life oath, or change their approach to it as Ouroboros is describing.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 17, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
It strikes me as nonsensical to train someone to be an officer and then let them go take that training to get a job with a Noble House. Not buying it.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 17, 2014, 10:25:25 PM
It strikes me as nonsensical to train someone to be an officer and then let them go take that training to get a job with a Noble House. Not buying it.

They've probably paid off that training you gave them by spending years training all the other idiots you didn't have to train, either because you delegated to the officers you trained to do just that or died or stored. And I don't mean you personally, of course. Speaking of officers though...

It bears stating that GMH's in particular are the most ambiguous with regards to life-oaths. Every GMH to my recollection has ranks that require a life-oath clearly outlined in documentation, and they tend to be high up on the list. Often a step below or near the point one might be offered a family name. Over time, and between leader to leader and staff to staff, what's considered appropriate for a life-oath has often reached ranks far below those documented as requiring them. Policy in this regard has generally always been to leave a life-oath requirement up to the PC leadership, with guidance from staff as required.

This results in situations where a hunter might be promoted to a Sergeant without an oath required in one regional branch of the clan and at the very same time in the other end of the Known, a hunter might be required to swear just to reach Corporal. While on one hand that leaves room for players to establish their personality as leaders by being as heavy or light handed as they see fit, this could be one of the few areas where freedom has done more harm than good. This freedom has in some cases diminished the meaning of a life-oath, by making it a carrot or stick in the hands of some players.

Further, the concept of a life-oath in a GMH used to have a lot more meaning when specialized units existed. It was a requirement before one could say become a Kadian Falcon or similar role, and it made sense because of the expectations placed on such roles. Eventually, those very expectations in part (arguably a small part) contributed to those roles being deemed inappropriate for players. That left a rather large gap in place on how a life-oath could be utilized, and I think is one of the reasons it begun to be used for less restricted or high-ranking roles.

In contrast, Noble Houses are generally considered "end-game" destinations, and due to the IC implications of working for such a clan I think they're in a better position to rationalize a life-oath being requested. Yet oddly enough, and this is my anecdotal experience, life-oaths become an issue far more frequently in a GMH than in a Noble House. Sometimes because when it's asked of a character it makes perfect sense, but just as often because it simply doesn't have to be asked at all. If you cross a Noble House, a life-oath is the last thing you usually need to worry about.

Before every GMH leader jumps down my throat, I don't know if it's the sole answer to the problem, or even the right one. But perhaps having ranks requiring life-oaths clearly outlined in documentation and limited to just those ranks could at least solve some issues. It might make life-oaths more rare, but will also make them more meaningful.

Just food for thought.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 17, 2014, 10:27:31 PM
The problem you run into with not having lifesworn PCs being leadership is that the organization doesn't give enough fucks to retaliate against whoever if that guy gets killed off. I've seen that happen more than once.

Also: No they haven't paid off their "debt" to the GMH, because the status and protection afforded a lowly common whelp cannot be bought by an independent.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 17, 2014, 10:29:17 PM
I think no one is asked or forced to swear, (unless they express interest in a promotion that requires it) but once you have chosen to swear, you're sworn. That's your bed. Sleep in it.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 17, 2014, 10:29:50 PM
GMH that is. Militia, no. You're in if you're in. Unless something special happens.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 17, 2014, 10:34:06 PM
I'll also add that I think it's a non-issue about the lifeswearing. Do people really complain about that seriously?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 17, 2014, 10:41:07 PM
I'll also add that I think it's a non-issue about the lifeswearing. Do people really complain about that seriously?

Mostly on the GDB
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 17, 2014, 11:59:11 PM
The problem you run into with not having lifesworn PCs being leadership is that the organization doesn't give enough fucks to retaliate against whoever if that guy gets killed off. I've seen that happen more than once.

So... It's there to protect them... after they've died? Losing me there.

Also: No they haven't paid off their "debt" to the GMH, because the status and protection afforded a lowly common whelp cannot be bought by an independent.

Losing me here too. Isn't that the benefit of joining a clan in general? You get that status and protection by being a member of a clan in general, in exchange for your paid (or underpaid some might argue) service. How is that a privilage for those that life-swear?

GMH that is. Militia, no. You're in if you're in. Unless something special happens.

No longer the case with the Legion, which is partly what brought up the issue of being able to retire from being life-sworn to begin with. You're "in" if you're in, unless you're just a bit in, and can now retire from being in even if you're "in".

Also, "something special happening" happens a lot more frequently than it should, in every clan. To the point it's become a joke to many. Having some guidelines set down on the proper use of a life-oath and permitting one to retire from it would at least make it less of a joke when folks do get out of their life-oath. As it stands it's the most commonly-broken unbreakable rule.

I'll also add that I think it's a non-issue about the lifeswearing. Do people really complain about that seriously?

Usually depends on who's asking for and/or offering the oath from whom, why, for what rank, and in what clan. How often that happens depends on who you ask, as evidenced in this thread. Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: racurtne on July 18, 2014, 12:06:09 AM
The nice thing for clan leaders in the Legion now is knowing who is in it for the long haul and who is doing a 'stint'. This can help them keep those members in the dark about more sensitive things. Being able to just up and leave when your leaders fully expected you to stay with them is kind of iffy, though.

In terms of economy, I could see people getting more perks for staying on for the long haul. I imagine it's mostly like that now anyway, though.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Italis on July 18, 2014, 01:27:13 AM
Some thoughts, specifically on the topic of GMHs - Militia and Noble House organizations probably take different views on the subject.

1. As a term and concept, "lifesworn" is largely a player-instituted construct, based on PC traditions that have been passed down over many years. With Merchants in particular, it wouldn't have been originally intended as a formal oath, but more like a "do-not-compete" contractual clause to stop folk from the inner circle running off to join their competitors, or starting up a competing outfit.

2. On reviewing the GMH documentation (as per the 2012 update), there has been a bit of "lifesworn-creep", having become attached to positions that shouldn't strictly require it - again, most likely as a result of player tradition. For comparison, the original Kadius documentation only ever mentioned the term 'lifetime loyalty' once, for one specific rank. This is definitely something we could look into.

3. Even so, it's still possible to function perfectly well in all three Great Merchant Houses without ever signing up on a permanent basis.

4. Ideally, the choice of serving for life should be an option extended to long-time employees as a reward and a show of trust, rather than an absolute requirement used to keep employees firmly under your thumb. Although PCs may not see it the same way, your average Zalanthan would absolutely jump at the chance for guaranteed employment for life!
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Riev on July 18, 2014, 02:04:50 AM
Some thoughts, specifically on the topic of GMHs - Militia and Noble House organizations probably take different views on the subject.

1. As a term and concept, "lifesworn" is largely a player-instituted construct, based on PC traditions that have been passed down over many years. With Merchants in particular, it wouldn't have been originally intended as a formal oath, but more like a "do-not-compete" contractual clause to stop folk from the inner circle running off to join their competitors, or starting up a competing outfit.

I remember being in a GMH clan semi-recently, and coming up with the idea that "I"ll be your Merchant, because you need one, until you find someone more capable. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon." and I was told "You have to swear your life to us, before we trust you with any of our secrets." Non-compete clause nothing, my PC saw an opening and tried for it, and it OOCly felt like I got Doc-Blocked.


2. On reviewing the GMH documentation (as per the 2012 update), there has been a bit of "lifesworn-creep", having become attached to positions that shouldn't strictly require it - again, most likely as a result of player tradition. For comparison, the original Kadius documentation only ever mentioned the term 'lifetime loyalty' once, for one specific rank. This is definitely something we could look into.

Even if its just an IDB discussion on what Lifeoath means, clan dependent or not, would be nice.

3. Even so, it's still possible to function perfectly well in all three Great Merchant Houses without ever signing up on a permanent basis.

Yes. As a Salarri, you can be a Contracted Hunter, or a Contracted Crafter. Pretty damned good positions, but if a Lifeoath is dangled as "You've done good. Swear your life to us, and the Family, or you will never have anyone's trust" is kind of heartbreaking. More on that later...

4. Ideally, the choice of serving for life should be an option extended to long-time employees as a reward and a show of trust, rather than an absolute requirement used to keep employees firmly under your thumb. Although PCs may not see it the same way, your average Zalanthan would absolutely jump at the chance for guaranteed employment for life!

This is the meat of it, in my opinion. Being offered a Lifesworn position isn't just "Well I've been a Recruit for a year, and a regular Clannie for a year. Give me secrets and plots". But more of a "Listen. We've vetted you. We like you, you've made us a LOT of money, would you like to be brought into the fold? If you do, there are untold riches and knowledge at your fingertips. If you don't, you will continue to make the coin you always have, but some jerkwad Officer might come from another unit and screw it all up."

Being offered lifesworn should be MOMENTOUS, and should OPEN UP OPPORTUNITY, not be something dangled as in "Join us or leave" or "Offer yourself to us, and us alone, because otherwise you never had the heart and we don't want you around."
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 18, 2014, 02:21:22 AM
The lack of specialized units in the GMHs doesn't mean trusted PCs aren't called on for the same things, and besides that, I think staff give leaders a bit of leeway if they want to assign made up titles and names to their minions, with the understanding that this made up role dies with the characters and isn't official.

I think if your PC feels trapped in their job after a life oath they should talk to their boss about changing their situation, or if you are really worried about it, don't take the life oath. You can still be a trusted Kuraci mercenary or Salarri cadet or Kadian whatever, but don't be upset when you aren't called on for the top secret mission to infiltrate Chosen Lord Fuckwood's estate and steal his tarts.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 18, 2014, 07:45:28 AM
The problem you run into with not having lifesworn PCs being leadership is that the organization doesn't give enough fucks to retaliate against whoever if that guy gets killed off. I've seen that happen more than once.

So... It's there to protect them... after they've died? Losing me there.

No.

Also: No they haven't paid off their "debt" to the GMH, because the status and protection afforded a lowly common whelp cannot be bought by an independent.

Quote
Losing me here too. Isn't that the benefit of joining a clan in general? You get that status and protection by being a member of a clan in general, in exchange for your paid (or underpaid some might argue) service. How is that a privilage for those that life-swear?

Not to that extent. Lifeswearing comes with the privilege of leadership or extended service, which implies that the person is valuable. Lifeswearing isn't required for anyone, it's voluntary.

What's the complaint here, again?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 18, 2014, 07:56:15 AM
Quote
What's the complaint here, again?

i can't commit to an exclusive relationship right now and i know we've been married for years but really don't you think it's better if we take some time off to see other people
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 18, 2014, 08:10:43 AM
The whole lifeswearing issue is such an issue that PCs were killed by sponsored bosses as a result of the issue, much OOC drama was created over it, plotlines wrecked because of it. And that was just one year, in one clan.

I remember at one point, one GMH was actively recruiting, and as soon as someone got in, they were instructed they couldn't get out unless they were kicked out. This was an on-going thing for a couple of RL months, during which the staff was well aware of what was going on. When someone from another GMH "courted" a recruit from that GMH hoping to get them to switch, that recruit was summarily PKed, and the other recruits told that it was a lesson to them if they ever dared attempt to leave, the same would happen to them.

And that was just a recruit.

Thankfully, there's been a changing of the guards since then, but it has set up a very unhappy precedent, and people DO remember this period of time. That event really gave the notion of "lifeswearing" a bad name and some of us are still hesitant to accept such a "promotion" when offered, and even go out of our way to prove ourselves UNworthy so we never have to be put into the position of turning it down.

Personally I like how Kurac has it set up. You can be a Mercenary indefinitely, you never have to swear an oath, you'll still get paid, you'll still be expected to work on an "as-needed" basis, you're still expected to base yourself out of Luir's, you're still expected to show up for meetings. Otherwise, you're on your own and free to come and go however it suits you. If you accept a promotion beyond mercenary, it means both you and Kurac have agreed that you are part of the Kurac family, trusted with "stuff" and trusting Kurac to watch your back.

A trend I've seen though, in all three GMHs and even in noble houses, is when "lifesworn" people are allowed to leave employment. Either you're lifesworn or you're not. By allowing lifesworn to leave employment, the employers are basically turning the whole concept into a joke.

If we're now shifting to "lifesworn, sort of, but we don't really mean it," how about we just get rid of the lifeswearing concept entirely. Make it so that the only people who are "lifesworn" to a clan, are people who were born to that clan. Everyone else is just an "at-will" employee.

If you want to keep the lifeswearing, then get rid of the "but" at the end of it. No more "lifesworn, but you can leave now because you've done such a bang-up job."

If someone is retired from service, they're retired. They're not quitting one job so that they can take another. That's not what retired means.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 18, 2014, 08:17:48 AM
So far as I understand, each clan has a tier at which you can leave at any point without real repercussions. Of course, you'll have to let your boss know... but you're not lifesworn or anything. You just won't be a leader in that clan if you don't lifeswear. Who wants to be a leader in a clan, anyway? There's few players that even want that for themselves, so I see this as a small demographic to begin with.

This complaint as an example of "I want all the bennies with none of the drawbacks, plz"

similar to: "I wanna play a powerful mul and not roleplay racial docs".
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 18, 2014, 08:25:30 AM

I remember being in a GMH clan semi-recently, and coming up with the idea that "I"ll be your Merchant, because you need one, until you find someone more capable. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon." and I was told "You have to swear your life to us, before we trust you with any of our secrets." Non-compete clause nothing, my PC saw an opening and tried for it, and it OOCly felt like I got Doc-Blocked.


I can see that for some positions. I just can. Merchant being one of them. Last time I took a role in a GMH one of the first things I was told was don't bring people into the warehouse.  I assume that means don't bring outsiders into the warehouse, don't let random employees muck about in there. So, I can't see taking some guy off the street and trusting him with all your merchandise and vast amounts of money. I'd like to see a great level of commitment before we get to that part. Sort of like waiting til after the wedding you spread your legs.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 11:25:20 AM
Good to see some staff input on this, thank you Italis. :)

1. As a term and concept, "lifesworn" is largely a player-instituted construct, based on PC traditions that have been passed down over many years. With Merchants in particular, it wouldn't have been originally intended as a formal oath, but more like a "do-not-compete" contractual clause to stop folk from the inner circle running off to join their competitors, or starting up a competing outfit.

That definitely would have made sense in the days the GMH's first begun, so it's an understandable tradition. Perhaps as far as a GMH is concerned, the meaning of life-swearing as a coded effect could be re-examined and brought up to date with today's reality? Today the GMH's have an absolutely monopoly in their respective trades, and have no major cause for concern in a merchant or artisan leaving to join a competitor. They have no competitors. Any that might surface are squashed or absorbed appropriately, and any that aren't clearly don't pose enough of a threat to be dealt with.

Whatever secrets of the craft a merchant might learn in their time in a GMH are largely useless to them outside it, since they don't apply to the trades of another GMH and they can't be much employed without the backing of a large organization (as reflected by clan-restricted recipies).  Sharing with someone outside the House on whether there's five or ten scrab shells in storage has zero impact on that House. The only thing they could take with them in leaving a GMH are... a) House property, marking them as thieves to be dealt with. b) Internal gossip or strategies, which can often be acquired without being lifesworn and often useless outside the House (and if not useless, can bring about Murder, Corruption, Betryal). c) Any reputation they've earned, good or bad, which follows every character regardless.

Perhaps retirement from a life-oath position in a GMH could stipulate a non-compete clause as far as working for any other GMH, mostly just on principle, but that's about all I can see as meaningful for such positions. Even someone wanting to continue to tinker with their chosen profession after retiring from a GMH makes sense, as is common with most craftsmen who retire in RL as well, and shouldn't pose major issues. If it comes to the point there's an issue, it would be dealt with just as it would with any indie who's come to pose an issue.

2. On reviewing the GMH documentation (as per the 2012 update), there has been a bit of "lifesworn-creep", having become attached to positions that shouldn't strictly require it - again, most likely as a result of player tradition. For comparison, the original Kadius documentation only ever mentioned the term 'lifetime loyalty' once, for one specific rank. This is definitely something we could look into.

I can see life-swearing as a requirement for any position in the Agent branch of a GMH, assuming a non-family member is brought into it. Being made family usually follows such cases. And I can see it as a requirement for high-level Mercantile or Hunter positions, particularly those where the characters have no direct PC above them but report to staff directly. For such characters, accountability is a lot more important as they've essentially risen through the ranks to the equivalent of a sponsored role. But for ranks below such, a life-oath makes little sense today.

Over the years "lifesworn-creep" has reached as far down as second-tier ranks, meaning the next rank following a regular full member (a Corporal in most military structures for example). Sometimes it's even offered to first-tier regular members, and while in such instances it's meant to serve as a way to fast-track a character, I'm not quite convinced that a first-tier character should even be offered that opportunity. Especially without the option of retirement, you're essentially taking a character at the beginning of their career and pigeonholing them for life just to speed them along a promotion that might not even require an oath to begin with. If someone shows that sort of promise, the leadership should simply keep a close eye on them and promote them as they see fit. It's a risk they should be taking, if there's a risk at all, until the character comes to a position that stipulates an oath.

One of the negative effects the above has, is creating an atmosphere that states, "If you want to be treated right, swear." Letting a first or second tier member take an oath they're not required to leads other PCs in that clan to feel pressured into doing the same. That in turn becomes the norm, and this is partly what's contributed to the "lifeoath-creep" that we've witnessed so far. By restricting it to specific ranks only, it keeps things on the level for everyone involved in a clan, present and future.

3. Even so, it's still possible to function perfectly well in all three Great Merchant Houses without ever signing up on a permanent basis.

While I agree on paper, the fact is that unfortunately really depends on the PC leadership in charge. With leaders that follow the documented guidelines as per which ranks require an oath, it rarely becomes an issue. With ones that don't, it can and has become a problem for many over time. Having the use of a life-oath regulated instead of up to PC leader's discretion would if nothing else ensure that your statement rings true. Characters would be able to function perfectly well without an oath, until such time as their aspirations brought them to a promotion that would require one.

4. Ideally, the choice of serving for life should be an option extended to long-time employees as a reward and a show of trust, rather than an absolute requirement used to keep employees firmly under your thumb. Although PCs may not see it the same way, your average Zalanthan would absolutely jump at the chance for guaranteed employment for life!

As Riev said, this is key. That's definitely how it should be viewed, both from an IC and OOC fashion. It isn't always viewed as such though, and that's mainly why this discussion is taking place. Some of the changes discussed so far are meant to address that, so that it becomes more of a reward and less of a penalty.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 18, 2014, 11:34:41 AM
I, too, support having non-lifesworn employee ranks in particularly the GMH clans. I do not support having further roles open up that are not life sworn. Within the basic actual employee guidelines, the leader can twist things so that their employees can fill all sorts of roles.

Reiv, your leader probably could have done this for you, but how they could have might not have crossed their minds at the time. I'm sorry that they were not able to figure it out.

What I really want to see happen is swearing life made more OOC glorious. And that's hard without inflating stuff like pay, etc, etc.

I still think that not allowing independents to have bank accounts would be a super way to do this. Maybe in-House fitters and tailors, too, that provide that service free of charge. I could see free private quarters for life-sworn employees. I think the current Allanaki apartment revamps going on will help some with this - while not free lodging, it's specialized to members of certain clans in some cases, which is darned cool and brag-about-able.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 11:36:33 AM
Quote
What's the complaint here, again?

i can't commit to an exclusive relationship right now and i know we've been married for years but really don't you think it's better if we take some time off to see other people

I see it more as... "Look we've been going out for a couple years and it's been great so far, but I'm not sure I'm ready to marry you. We could be engaged if such an option existed in this world, but it doesn't. And your family has some very troubling views on divorce, so... Yeah, can't we just see where this goes?"
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 11:50:16 AM
I, too, support having non-lifesworn employee ranks in particularly the GMH clans. I do not support having further roles open up that are not life sworn. Within the basic actual employee guidelines, the leader can twist things so that their employees can fill all sorts of roles.

I don't think anyone's asked for more non-oath roles to be opened outside of documentation. Problem is many of the roles that currently "require" it, depending on what day it is and which way the wind is blowing, were never really meant to. Personally I'm asking for which roles require it and which don't to be set in stone and adhered to. I'd like to see less twisting of the guidelines by leaders and more adherence to them.

I still think that not allowing independents to have bank accounts would be a super way to do this. Maybe in-House fitters and tailors, too, that provide that service free of charge. I could see free private quarters for life-sworn employees. I think the current Allanaki apartment revamps going on will help some with this - while not free lodging, it's specialized to members of certain clans in some cases, which is darned cool and brag-about-able.

I still think that penalizing indie is rarely the solution to anything, oft-touted as it might be. Yeah, we all hate them and they suck and should die slow and painful deaths, but them doing so isn't going to magically improve things for clanned individuals. However, further benefits to clans will, such as the step staff took with apartments and other benefits you mentioned.

In essence... I really don't think that being life-oathed should bring any perks at all. I think it should simply be a contract to be signed for certain ranks, clear and simple. Those ranks already come with perks embedded, so essentially those are the rewards of a life-oath. In my opinion though there should never exist two characters of equal rank, where one is sworn and the other isn't. Controversial, I know.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 18, 2014, 12:37:18 PM
Not allowing indies to have bank accounts may lead to money taking other forms and still being traded in ghastly amounts, like mount tickets.

Maybe staff that are interested can start researching lifesworn and comparing their experiences to that of other players and maybe coming up with an alternative if storing and lifespan rates are really that bad. I like lifeswearing being an option, though. Playing someone who legally bound themselves for life to a merchant house sounds like fun in the right circumstances.

Make leaders able to give a flag to lifesworn people making it impossible for them to quit without rebelling.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Riev on July 18, 2014, 12:51:06 PM

I remember being in a GMH clan semi-recently, and coming up with the idea that "I"ll be your Merchant, because you need one, until you find someone more capable. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon." and I was told "You have to swear your life to us, before we trust you with any of our secrets." Non-compete clause nothing, my PC saw an opening and tried for it, and it OOCly felt like I got Doc-Blocked.


I can see that for some positions. I just can. Merchant being one of them. Last time I took a role in a GMH one of the first things I was told was don't bring people into the warehouse.  I assume that means don't bring outsiders into the warehouse, don't let random employees muck about in there. So, I can't see taking some guy off the street and trusting him with all your merchandise and vast amounts of money. I'd like to see a great level of commitment before we get to that part. Sort of like waiting til after the wedding you spread your legs.

In this specific instance, it was someone who had served three IC years of their contract, still had two more to go, had no outward (or inward, for that matter) hopes of leaving, just wanted to "help out" and maybe "get a transfer out of this shit hole". Even at Junior Merchant status, someone who can take orders, after 3 years where they COULD QUALIFY if they were lifesworn. The trouble isn't that it WASN'T given to me, the trouble is the Doc-Block, if it so existed. The idea that a risk couldn't even be ATTEMPTED, even though the risk was likely less than the reward of having an active Vending Machine around, because by the docs its assumed they cannot have one until they are lifesworn. The risk of Kadius allowing a 3 year non-lifesworn crafter/hunter do some orders on the side to get business rolling in an area that hasn't seen it MUST be less than the actual business they'll do, before that employee goes rogue and steals the entire warehouse.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on July 18, 2014, 01:26:48 PM
In conclusion, people who can't handle being life sworn are not only pussies and are probably breeds or breed lovers, but positively without a doubt shouldn't be working for Templars much less Sorcerer Kings (and Muk).

FTFYNooB

Choosing not to be in a clan should be a death sentence. That would change EVERYTHING.



I'm pretty sure they're (mostly) joking, D.

I wasn't kidding. I probably should have elaborated.

I think pay -could- be better in some places, definitely. Sid makes the world go round.
I also think that being independent in a place of such oppression would be less the norm than it is now. I don't think it should be this easy to gain wealth and autonomy on Zalanthas and indies BY FAR get much much more in the sid department than GMH players do. In a clan it seems you always have to figure out a way to supplement your income. That's what I mean by not being in a clan being a death sentence. People should be afraid to hunt alone, not spend weeks in the wastes (without a tent!?!?).

I'd like to see being in a clan the norm instead. Survival outside their protection minimal.
As Nyr said so eloquently here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46879.0.html):
Quote from: Nyr
If your goal is to play an independent then you should have to work hard at it.  Suck it, indies.  ICly, I mean.  OOCly you have support from independent staff.

Unfortunately, the game world doesn't reflect that.


Lifeswearing, I'm for it, in clans and outside (for indie groups). I think Italis said it well:

Although PCs may not see it the same way, your average Zalanthan would absolutely jump at the chance for guaranteed employment for life!

I'm not giving anyone access to my shizzle without proven loyalty. Besides, it's fucking Zalanthas, betrayal is part of the shindig! Why wouldn't people "swear" only to double cross? So much delicious plotz to be had.

One last thing I needed to throw my 2 sids into.

I already specified the #1 IC reason why the GMHs would consider wanting a merger: world domination.

Dear Lord, please no. We don't need a Walmart on Zalanthas. I think all those organizations ALREADY have world domination within their respective fields. What next? Winrothol and Borsail "collaborating"?

No.

Just.... no.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 18, 2014, 01:37:57 PM
Alright, I know  much of this seems off topic, in that the thread is titled clan pay...But from the OP and others, it seems what the title should be...yet again, How to make clans more attractive.

SO...that being said, here is what I would do if I had control..

First off, I would get rid of life oath or the possibility of life oath for EVERY clan....GMH, Noble, militia, legion....For rank and file. I would then instate/reinstate any and all elite ranks in all of those clans. The elites of course Would be life oath...sorry, but if I am a clan leader of some kind I want my elites to be fanatics. I would put a hard cap on all the elites of all clans...That being 4-5...likely 5, 1 officer and 4 lower...cepting Militia and Legion, which would have a cap of maybe 7.

The elites of course would be the highest paid, best equipped best taken care of but also held to the highest standards.

I would also get rid of "contracts" 1 year, 2, 5...whatever...screw that, you are not  elite and oathed...you don't want to be here any more? Well, we don't want you...go, have a happy life...NEXT!

This I think would go the farthest to making clans, all clans more attractive to a majority of the players.

PS
Would this mean there would be elite groups lording status over everybody else? YES...least I would hope so.

PPS
I base these ideas on Kurac actually...Back when the outriders were playable, the press to join Kurac just to have the chance to become an outrider was quite high...no reason why that should not apply to any clan....Oh, you are legion you say...well, that is nice, serve the sun king...Cool...Oh wait, Ivory guard? Wow!

PPPS
I would also return to the practice of sending prospective people to employ, at least in a military/hunting role to a clan to the Byn for a year.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 03:23:52 PM
So... X-D for President? Where do I vote (http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=sanvean)? Do I need to sign something?
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 03:59:45 PM
On a more serious note, if staff is planning on re-examining which ranks currently require an oath and seeing if some of the oath-creep that's occurred over the years can be pulled back a bit... My personal feeling is that no second-tier rank should be taking an oath. Ranks such as Corporals or Second Hunters, Merchant Trainees of any GMH, Full Crafters of Salarr, and so forth, are all ranks meant to train a member towards further future responsibility. Some are even named according to that; Trainees. I'm excluding Kuraci Regulars because while technically a second-tier rank, the structure and feel of the Fist is different for many reasons and seems to function perfectly well as it stands.

One doesn't often rise to such ranks without having exhibited a desire to do so and an according aptitude, but just the same, they're mid-grade ranks where you still report to a PC superior (if one exists) and are meant to both assist that PC and learn from them. It's a period of both training and evaluation by the House. As such, it makes little sense to require a life-long commitment from someone who's yet to prove themselves capable in such a role.

What happens if they don't turn out capable for the role? The only options left for the House are to either keep them in their position and put up with someone incapable, kill them, or demote them. And the later instance that's unfair to the character, who's now stuck in a first-tier position for the rest of his life, just because he couldn't cut it as something more.

My two cents on that bit.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 18, 2014, 04:02:31 PM
What happens if they don't turn out capable for the role? The only options left for the House are to either keep them in their position and put up with someone incapable, kill them, or demote them. And the later instance that's unfair to the character, who's now stuck in a first-tier position for the rest of his life, just because he couldn't cut it as something more.

If you don't want your lifesworn character to get demoted down to a position of lessened responsibility, stop being a fuck up.

Edited for page roll.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Rahnevyn on July 18, 2014, 04:04:16 PM
I feel like I'm coming late to the party, but I feel as though the topic of life-oaths and clans demanding them veers a bit away from clan pay and the economy and probably deserves its own thread.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 04:09:33 PM
Split us off at will, Rahnevyn. I think we stopped discussing the OT, that of being the cost of drinking in relation to clan pay, somewhere past the first or second page. Though in our defense I'm not sure how much more could be said on that topic, and everyone seemed to agree drinks could stand to be made cheaper. :)
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Rahnevyn on July 18, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
You know what, you're right. I just renamed the topic to be more inclusive. Viola.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 04:21:49 PM
You know what, you're right. I just renamed the topic to be more inclusive. Viola.

(http://i62.tinypic.com/35he45z.jpg)
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: valeria on July 18, 2014, 05:50:10 PM
What happens if they don't turn out capable for the role? The only options left for the House are to either keep them in their position and put up with someone incapable, kill them, or demote them. And the later instance that's unfair to the character, who's now stuck in a first-tier position for the rest of his life, just because he couldn't cut it as something more.

If you don't want your lifesworn character to get demoted down to a position of lessened responsibility, stop being a fuck up.

Edited for page roll.

Conversely, if your lifesworn character is really such a fuckup and you're really bored as a player... just go ahead and desert.  You know you want to.  And you know it's better than a slow roll-toward-storage through player boredom.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 06:41:17 PM
Or, you know, we could actually address a problem in a realistic and responsible fashion.

As opposed to asking players to grow a pair, or man up, or whatever other "tough love" sentiment might make us sound cool on the GDB... in our minds.
Title: Re: The Clan Pay / Economy Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on July 18, 2014, 06:47:16 PM
Alright, I know  much of this seems off topic, in that the thread is titled clan pay...But from the OP and others, it seems what the title should be...yet again, How to make clans more attractive.

SO...that being said, here is what I would do if I had control..

First off, I would get rid of life oath or the possibility of life oath for EVERY clan....GMH, Noble, militia, legion....For rank and file. I would then instate/reinstate any and all elite ranks in all of those clans. The elites of course Would be life oath...sorry, but if I am a clan leader of some kind I want my elites to be fanatics. I would put a hard cap on all the elites of all clans...That being 4-5...likely 5, 1 officer and 4 lower...cepting Militia and Legion, which would have a cap of maybe 7.

The elites of course would be the highest paid, best equipped best taken care of but also held to the highest standards.

I would also get rid of "contracts" 1 year, 2, 5...whatever...screw that, you are not  elite and oathed...you don't want to be here any more? Well, we don't want you...go, have a happy life...NEXT!

This I think would go the farthest to making clans, all clans more attractive to a majority of the players.

PS
Would this mean there would be elite groups lording status over everybody else? YES...least I would hope so.

PPS
I base these ideas on Kurac actually...Back when the outriders were playable, the press to join Kurac just to have the chance to become an outrider was quite high...no reason why that should not apply to any clan....Oh, you are legion you say...well, that is nice, serve the sun king...Cool...Oh wait, Ivory guard? Wow!

PPPS
I would also return to the practice of sending prospective people to employ, at least in a military/hunting role to a clan to the Byn for a year.

I like it.

Though I'd add that the promotion cap needs to be lifted across the board, not just for the elites in organizations. The sky could be the limit, provided that one earns it. Maybe not a PC BLACK robe, but Master Agents, Master Merchants, Lieutenant Commanders, promotions from officers to Templars, Blues to Reds, Junior Nobles to forces to be reckoned with, you get the drift. Fear of abuse? Meh, storage, demotion. I mean, how would these people even get close if they weren't trusted in some way? If they haven't done everything (mostly) right?

It's disheartening, the cap.


Did I mention to make it harder to be indy out in the wild? Aye, think I did.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 18, 2014, 06:56:01 PM
promotions from officers to Templars

That's...not how that works.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: valeria on July 18, 2014, 06:57:34 PM
Or, you know, we could actually address a problem in a realistic and responsible fashion.

As opposed to asking players to grow a pair, or man up, or whatever other "tough love" sentiment might make us sound cool on the GDB... in our minds.


Your premise is that there is a problem and we need to solve it.  My premise is that if there is a problem, there are already solutions available.  I chose to point this out in a way that amused me, you choose not to be amused.  That's fine.  But we don't all have to agree with your premise to contribute to the conversation.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barsook on July 18, 2014, 07:02:56 PM
promotions from officers to Templars

That's...not how that works.

Yes, because you must be a Noble to get that promotion.  And that would require a staff role call for a character like that.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 18, 2014, 07:07:05 PM
promotions from officers to Templars

That's...not how that works.

Yes, because you must be a Noble to get that promotion.  And that would require a staff role call for a character like that.

but that's still not how that works
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on July 18, 2014, 07:09:41 PM
promotions from officers to Templars

That's...not how that works.

Yes, because you must be a Noble to get that promotion.  And that would require a staff role call for a character like that.

Maybe not that specific scenario but something similar has in the past (non "noble" templars in the south) I was just using that as an example. Why -wouldn't- the Highlord/Mukky reward service by way of moar powah?

These are staff implemented limitations. I think some of them should be lifted. I also think Templars/Nobles should be able to enslave any commoner on the slightest whim, that there should be more murder, that dorfs shouldn't be as socially accepted as they are and tons of other things that don't (and likely won't ever) happen.


Anything that a player can shoot for that they can only get through joining a clan and working like a 'tok would be good for the game world I think. More people wanting to join clans would reduce indies and pump more wealth into the already wealthy rulers of the world.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 07:17:35 PM
Or, you know, we could actually address a problem in a realistic and responsible fashion.

As opposed to asking players to grow a pair, or man up, or whatever other "tough love" sentiment might make us sound cool on the GDB... in our minds.


Your premise is that there is a problem and we need to solve it.  My premise is that if there is a problem, there are already solutions available.  I chose to point this out in a way that amused me, you choose not to be amused.  That's fine.  But we don't all have to agree with your premise to contribute to the conversation.

You suggested a solution to this (non?) problem. It was an amusing one. I laughed. Then I figured that instead of expecting players to stop being fuckups as BadSkeelz suggested, which is as likely as expecting Byn Sergeants to never fall off the Shield Wall, or asking players to rebel from a clan that made them swear a lifeoath before being sure they were cut-out for it, there might be a better solution somewhere out there that's more realistic in its expectations and a bit responsible towards players.

Don't read too much into it. Have a smiley face in fact, they're good for the soul. :)

Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 18, 2014, 07:22:56 PM
I hear what you mean about trends Ouroboros, and I think you do have a point. There are trends. But I also think they self correct in time.
I mean it's like this - I take a sponsored role. I have minions. The players of my minions either think my pc is great or they don't. The ones who do may go on to run things the way I did. (They would do this, because they enjoyed themselves.)
Other players will not enjoy playing in the clan they way I lead it. They will go on to play leadership roles. they will do things differently.

You and XD will play leadership roles. You'll inspire some to do it your way. You'll inspire others to be sure not to do it your way.

And too, the people who don't like those leadership styles will play in other clans or play independents.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 18, 2014, 07:31:38 PM
I'll stop telling people to stop being fuckups when people stop saying leaders owe them more fun. Still irked about that.

On a more reasoned note, I remain deeply skeptical that seasoned employees privy to an organization's secrets would just be allowed to walk away whenever the character/player grows bored with the role. An answer would be to increase the distance one has to travel to get to that point of trustworthiness by adding new ranks or such, as others have suggested. I would be more open to that so long as it doesn't become ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 18, 2014, 07:53:18 PM
Thing is Barz....We really cannot do it another way unless staff makes changes....The rank ceiling is still nearly ground level, Life oath is still in every clan docs and most do not state Only Sarge+ etc, all of the elite groups are closed...many clans are closed and of the ones that are open, almost half of them are allowed to have like a noble...who can have an aide and be a patron.

Again I state, in 2000 we had half the people we do now...during peak you were happy to see 30, and most the time the numbers were under 20...and yet,  In the south alone, you had 4 noble houses to choose from, Militia, Byn, And 4 GMH...10 clans in nak, (and that is not even counting the rinth, which also has seen clan reduction) and most everybody was clanned...I would estimate 80-90%. The recruiting drive for brand new PCs as they entered the game was at times comical.

Today we have...Um, no noble houses or one...not sure, Oash does not count, 3 merchant houses...Oh wait, sorry, in nak, 2, the byn and militia...So, 4, maybe 5 total clans that PCs can join in nak...Yet, fully half the PCs I see are unclanned...Sure, I can not see it staff side so that could be skewed, so let us call it 40%. And for the most part, I do not think the clans that are open are even full.

So, what almost every post I have made on this thread try to address is, What has changed?

I mean people constantly complain, Not enough clanned PCs, too many indies...Make life harder for the indies or Pay clan members more....And none of that is the reason things are the way they are.

Hell, used to be that clan pay REALLY sucked, I mean, like a Tor private made 50 coins a month...and yet people were WANTING into that clan...when I had my LT I think at one point I had 12 other players in the red scorpions alone.

And sure, PC leadership accounts for the short term cycles of course, but it does not account for the over all cycle...there has been no clans good, clans bad cycle in the last 14 years, it has been just a steady decline in clans and clan membership % wise.



Oh, and you all want to know how to make life hard for indies?

Take away all clan unending water sources.

But XD...That hurts clanners!

No, it makes the clanners have to go get water, either by draining all the free water sources or going out and collecting up resources and selling them to buy water. And on that point Clanned PCs have a real edge, because 6 salarri can go out, kill, forage, collect everything in an area, come back, fill the npc merchant inventories and get all the coin.

Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 18, 2014, 08:02:37 PM
I don't feel like that's wholly accurate.

Sure, the Golden Age of Kadius may have been around '99, but the Golden Age of Kurac was from like 2004-2007.

I can't really speak to Salarr, but weren't they party rocking about the same time?

The Red Fangs were taking names from like 2008-2010?

And the two militias are always an on-again off-again kind of affair.

I don't feel like its fair to say clans have sucked since '00.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 18, 2014, 08:07:06 PM
I'm probably about to get a hail of date corrections. Let me preempt you.


*all dates are approximate
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 18, 2014, 08:10:35 PM
I purposely did not include tribes, though they are considered clans, one cannot be recruited in so they do not count for this thread.

As to Kurac, Heh, the golden age of kurac was pretty much from when they opened for play to the closing of the outriders.


But as I also said, leaders do cause rises, there is no doubt of that, the really bad ones also cause falls. But just because the byn might have 60 players right now does not mean that overall clan membership per capita is not on the decline.

As to any of them, including Salarr, that was a combination of fun leaders and a special "elite" Group...which is now closed as well.


Never said they sucked, but they surely are not nearly as fun or fulfilling to many people.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 18, 2014, 08:12:59 PM
I think I get it now.

There's not enough chance for people to play snowflakes in clans. But every indie is a snowflake. So people play indies.

Solution: people in clans get to design their own ranks, uniforms, schedules and privileges.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 18, 2014, 08:25:42 PM
I think I see a common thread that people think the golden age was when -they- played and when -they- were the leader.
Nice backhanded way to say leaders now or at other times are no good.

Anyhow, I agree. Get rid of the very low ceiling. What's the worst that could happen? Players could cause plots and change?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 18, 2014, 09:05:39 PM
Eh, I do not see that thread.

And when they played what, in clans? The game?

Personally, I prefer to play a minion, and have had great times in clans as such...but even a minion likes to advance in the minion ranks...eventually being rewarded for being such a good minion and being invited to join the minion elite.

And BadSkeelz...I am just going to have to call your initials on that post.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 18, 2014, 09:13:29 PM
Rightly so: it makes about as much sense as telling clans they should start grinding for water.

I'd be more interested in seeing substantiated numbers of how many people are in clans, and other theories about why they are or are not joining them. It's just as plausible to me that "Back in the day" of low player numbers people would join clans because it guaranteed interaction, instead of being spread across the Known world. Now that we have about twice the number of peak players, it seems more likely that people can play an independent with decent chance of interacting with others (clanned or not) just because people are thicker on the ground.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 18, 2014, 09:21:52 PM
As far as the perception that "elite clans like the Outriders are no longer allowed, so people don't want to play in a clan," I think that's a viewpoint  problem. For me at least, every GMH, noble, or militia clan is elite, compared to the masses of unwashed (V)NPCs our characters are usually struggling to rise above. Even a standard no-frill artisan in a GMH is worlds above an unaffiliated crafter-grebber in terms of resources, prestige, and safety. We as players shouldn't forget that.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 09:44:46 PM
Lots of good things.

I agree, they do often self-correct. Sometimes they don't though and they become policy or "tradition". Such as the life-oath creep Italis mentioned, where Kadius went from a single reference of life-oaths in documentation to the x amount of ranks it's required for today, likely as a result of PC traditions in his words.

It's not really about playing styles though. Every leader has their own personality and preferences, and that's what makes the game unique and interesting. You have yours, I have mine, X-D kills everyo- I mean.. has his, and it's great. Some will enjoy their time under one leader, some under another, and each will walk away with whatever they felt makes a good leader and hopefully try to emulate it.

The problem happens when the decisions a PC leader makes start to be taken as scripture because they relate to policy. In the case of a lifeoath for example, how you (not you personally) like to play a leader isn't the issue. The issue is that if you today start requesting a lifeoath for rank "x" when it didn't need one, even if it's in your purview to do so as a leader, it sets precedent. And someone subjected to that, especially if they're new and might not know better, could think it's how things are supposed to be done. So when it's their turn, they might already take for granted that "x" rank really should be oathed. And they might think to themselves, "Why not Y rank too though, I mean that dude I'm considering promoting is a bit shifty... Eh, let's have him swear, just to be sure." Then that dude that was sworn into Y comes along in a leadership position a year later and thinks, "Hey, X and Y require an oath. And that dude I'm considering promoting to a Z is kinda shifty..." And thus we arrive to today. It's a generalization, but I think you can understand my point.

I'll stop telling people to stop being fuckups when people stop saying leaders owe them more fun. Still irked about that.

I feel ya. Preaching to the choir though.

On a more reasoned note...

Reason is good. As for being skeptical, you're not alone. Staff are currently testing that with the Legion, so eventually at least they'll know if it's a safe approach or needs adjustments. In the mean time, and in the humorous spirit of telling people to stop being fuckups, here's a thought... How about leaders stop feeling the need to share all these world-devastating secrets that they'd have to kill someone if they ever left a clan? How about the next time an employee with the slightest questionable aspect to them asks something sensitive they be responsible and say, "I'd tell you, but I'd have to kill you!" Sheesh. TMI leaders, TMI.

So, what almost every post I have made on this thread try to address is, What has changed?

Honestly? They took the cool factor out of clans, that's what changed. The glass ceiling currently in place keeps players from anything truly great or cool to aspire to. The closing down of elite units did the same. The closing down of entire clans pushed that further. And it's not just clans. The cool factor was removed from numerous aspects of the game, in lieu of balance and realism or in retaliation to abuse. Commandable pets and NPCs that could be purchased... Objects like masks and scripted armor or weapons... The list is long, but would derail the thread.

I won't argue whether the changes improved the game or not, but I don't think anyone can argue against the fact these things were cool. Point is most of the changes players had to simply suck up and deal with. But they still have a choice in whether to join a clan. And as an indie, you have a lot more options. It's one of the few areas where you can be as cool as you can pull off. And with patience and ability, you can have an effect on the Known that even a Senior Agent or Noble can only dream of.

Players keep coming back to the issue of how much coin you can or can't earn, thinking it's what makes being an indie attractive. Truth is coin loses meaning quickly, and the point it loses meaning can be reached whether you're clanned or indie. And if it's your character's goal to reach that point, trust me, you can get there almost as quickly in a clan as outside it. What happens after that though is what makes or breaks a role. It's why I've consistently said the problem isn't with indies, it's with clans, and it isn't about coin.

If the word "cool" bothers someone, replace it with "wow factor" or "bling" or whatever suits them. What you call it doesn't matter so long as you understand the intent. But that's what's missing so if you want clans to thrive? Start bringing sexy back.


...No, ShaLeah, that's not what I mean.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on July 18, 2014, 10:01:50 PM

...No, ShaLeah, that's not what I mean.


Liar.
/me rawrs a soft purr of a roar, waggling ^me brows at ~ouroboros.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 18, 2014, 10:08:10 PM
I don't think we need to completely return to "how things were," to get some of that excitement back. There could be new, but similar things. Previously there were the Archives, the Expansion, the Conclave, the Red Fangs, the ALA (going back a LONG-ass way), the ability to roll up a desert elf that wasn't part of a coded tribe, the ability to roll up a desert elf that was part of an existing tribe that didn't have a coded camp, the *open* hiring of "war-mages" by Tor, the Ivory Guard, the Black Somethingorother of Kadius, gith spoke Heshrak, mantises terrorized the Red Desert in mini-clutches, halflings hung out on treetops in the Grey Forest...

Again, I'm not suggesting that the game suffers without this specific stuff. I'm saying it could be made better if more of this -kind- of stuff were returned.

Such as the "snowflake" clans and sub-clans (to use the example in a previous post about players wanting to play snowflakes). Players shouldn't have to feel like they need to play indies, in order to "be that snowflake." they could play in a clan where - if the player is lucky and the character is clever enough - they might be recruited into the secret society, or onto the Party-Argosy. Or into the Special Forces unit of the GMH. And maybe just one more desert elf clan - one that doesn't feel the need to stay in the tablelands, never interacting with anyone else, but who also isn't going to be hanging out in cities any longer than absolutely necessary, if ever. Something *like* the Red Fangs, even if it's not the same thing.

Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 18, 2014, 10:15:48 PM
Reason is good. As for being skeptical, you're not alone. Staff are currently testing that with the Legion, so eventually at least they'll know if it's a safe approach or needs adjustments. In the mean time, and in the humorous spirit of telling people to stop being fuckups, here's a thought... How about leaders stop feeling the need to share all these world-devastating secrets that they'd have to kill someone if they ever left a clan? How about the next time an employee with the slightest questionable aspect to them asks something sensitive they be responsible and say, "I'd tell you, but I'd have to kill you!" Sheesh. TMI leaders, TMI.

Now you're just stuck in a Catch-22 of not involving players deeply enough in "plots" by keeping them in the dark, but a lot of plots need players to know what's happening so they can go farther.

I'll also take this time to say that the changes to the Legion (loose schedule, retirement) do nothing to dispel my idea that Tuluk is an effete, soft-core, drum-circle-filled coddled version of Armageddon. But that's just my limited perspective.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: rodic on July 18, 2014, 10:33:28 PM
Err I know I'll just get "STFU NEWB" but whatever some sentiments in the thread piss me off.

As I guy who can't play all the time... or can't dedicate 4 hours consecutively to the game...

Being Clanned sucks.  Like it really sucks... sometimes if I know that no one is on, or if leadership is on and going to demand I "train" or whatever.  I just won't log back on.  Fuck it, I go play something else... even though I really like to play Armageddon.  

Can't leave the gates, can't make your own fun, can't find people on off peak/off usual play time, don't bother logging in on my day off at noon, cause no one in my clan... can't leave the gates, etc, etc.

Yet here I see in this thread... "MAKE IT HARD ON INDIES MWHAHAHAHAHHA"

Seriously... stop trying to restrict other people's play.  Like Just stop.
You don't know why some characters choose to be indie, you really have no clues IC or OOCly.  And for a player like me, its about the only damn way I can have fun.  I can't wait for the group to get together, get out the gates, following around the leader bored.  Can't quit out when I need too or do  shit if there is an emergency with kids or if I gotta run and grab a bottle for the baby.  
No one wants to deal with a person who constantly has to go AFK every 20/30 minutes.  Holding up the group.  I abuse the hell out of ranger quit, part of the reason I like it, and I got no shame about it.  IF I need to grab toddler escaping bedtime, make my newborn a bottle or if i wanna step out and smoke, or make myself a coffee.  

I hate being stuck, or abusing GONE all the time, just because I gotta put up with a clan schedule, missing Clan stuff because I HAD to go AFK. Or really really wanting to go grab a coffee or smoke, but can't cause I've gotta pay attention and throw out few emotes.  That shit can be work some days, its not FUN.
I rather just not log in, and honestly, that's a really bad sign.  I want to log in, I want to add another character to the world but I can't, because the "clan play" doesn't suit my RL responsibility/life.  And that sure as hell doesn't mean I should completely excluded from the game because I rather be able to take care of my kids, or fix myself a cup of coffee while I play.

Also I'm not going to take what little play time I have, waiting for whoever get their thumb out their ass so  I can hunt/train/whatever.  If I bound by the restrictions and rules of that clan/role, that a big problem if I've gotta perform some mental gymnastics to convince myself I'm having fun.

I'm not going to log in and pretty much unable to go to the tavern and interact because herp derp "Clan schedule", or log in with intent to do something but get held up cause a "meeting" or "training".  I have a real boss already, I don't need some nerd on a power trip dictating my text game time as well.

Shit sucks, shit is boring, and players like me will simply pack up and leave.  Why? Because we don't want to play those roles, so stop trying to "fix" clans by shitting all over the alternative play style.  IF indies are too rich/easy? Maybe they should stop abusing all that decades of OOC knowledge.  Believe me, a lone newbie hunter is EXTREMELY difficult in its own right.  Only reason indies are problem is because players in the know, abuse every single watering hole, map, and little secret they know to get ahead.  Wanna struggle as an indie? Stop abusing that OOC knowledge and actually role play out the struggle.  Stop demanding staff change the damn game, which is hard enough honestly, because YOU want a challenge.  Stop being so myopic that clan play is SOOOO much better, because if it actually was better, this thread wouldn't exist.

Maybe you should look at why people aren't joining the clans...  
Clan's can often be extremely restrictive and boring, I don't work all day, take care of my kids, clean the house and sit down to role play out more "work".  I play to have fun, don't take away what fun I CAN have because you got sour grapes that no one wants to sit around in the barracks all day grunting.

Basically Clans can be fun, but there are times... they aren't at all.  You can't expect people to play a game, or play the game YOU want if it isn't fun.  Make clans a more fun experience, and you'll have people clamoring to get in.
Also going after other players "fun" or making it harder to play the roles they like, screams "sour grapes" and immaturity.  Your clan sucks, deal with it, that's why people rather go solo hunt.  Yet I hear in this thread that "clans are oh soo great! so great in fact, we have to make it HARDER to be indie because clans are so great!"


/rant
With love, a Guy who rather play an indie hunter because its more FUN.
No hard feelings.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: racurtne on July 18, 2014, 10:46:49 PM
I haven't really posted in this thread, but I do agree with Rodic's general sentiment. Some people don't like clan play. Some people don't have the time for clan play. I'd rather have more players whether they are in a clan or not. Indies do have a place in the world and I think that it should be up to players to police themselves as far as their RP is concerned. With that and staff oversight, I don't think we need to punish indies much more harshly.

I personally haven't played an indie since the beginning of 2010. I like clan play. Some don't. I think we should concentrate on making clans attractive while still maintaining a clanned feeling, rather than spoiling the indie scene (heh) entirely.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 18, 2014, 11:00:41 PM
Yeah I've gotta say... Take away the likely warranted rage and Rodic has a point. Being in a clan does require having the time for it, and it's possible part of the drop in clan participation is due to folks having lives (with spouses, kids, dogs, cats, bills, jobs).

Of course that just means clans need to be made attractive enough to convince folks to drop all that nonsense and focus on the game, which brings us back to the issue at hand.

Sidenote to Staff: When you do begin the surveys eventually, questions like these would get interesting statistics.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on July 18, 2014, 11:11:02 PM
With love, a Guy who rather play an indie hunter because its more FUN OOC'LY CONVENIENT.

FTFY :)

Ranger quit works clanned or not too! Also, I know people who are in clans who play two hours a day, or log in once a week. So that's kankshit right there.

In all seriousness, it sounds like you can't be bothered with the roleplay aspect that involves OTHERS. To each their own.

rather than spoiling the indie scene (heh) entirely.

I didn't say make it UNPLAYABLE. No character should be self sustainable out of char gen WITHOUT RISK.


Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 18, 2014, 11:11:34 PM
I didn't get that from Rodic's tirade at all. What I got from it was: Rodic's life is so hectic that he's frustrated with his real life, angry and bitter about it, and wants to escape reality by parking a fictional character in one spot for an indeterminate length of time, and not have to worry about whether or not he has to actually interact with other characters while his is there.

Sounds like he needs either a first-person shooter, or a turn-based MUSH instead of an RPI. RPIs require interaction, and they require that you are actually paying attention to what's going on, because at any moment, something can happen that'll be the end of your character permanently. I'm sorry Rodic is going through such turmoil but really, Armageddon has no responsibility to fix it, and playing an indie just so you can step away from the computer to make coffee and have a cigarette or yes - even take care of your children - does not correlate with Armageddon needing to accommodate your "away from the keyboard" life.

Armageddon shouldn't be easier OR harder on players just because players want to get away from the keyboard. That shouldn't even be a consideration. That's a player-side concern, not a game-side concern, and you should have absolutely zero expectations to that end from the creators of Armageddon (or any other game for that matter).

Some people don't like clan play. That's the only useful information you can get from Rodic's post. And it's true. Some don't. The question is - how can clan play be made more attractive to those people who MIGHT play in clans? If you have no intention of playing in clans because they're clans - then this entire thread doesn't even apply to you at all.

But for people who WOULD want to play in a clan, if clan play was made more attractive - there have been several ideas to do that here on this thread, and others.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 18, 2014, 11:18:30 PM
FUCK KIDS

RP WITH MEEEEEEEEEE
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Cutthroat on July 18, 2014, 11:21:28 PM
Clans being appealing or not appealing seems largely a matter of taste, and will depend on how or why you play the game at all in the first place. Clans are more restrictive and offer better access to certain kinds of plots (depending on the clan), while independence is less restrictive and offers less access to the plots clans usually get into, but they can still have plots of their own. That's pretty much the basis of Arm, and frankly any of the few RPIs out there. That's not really going to change, and there's nothing wrong with preferring one or the other. But if you've already decided that you dislike all clans, then there isn't really a point in discussing how to improve them, unless you are open to trying a clan sometime.

The latest set of problems discussed in this thread seems to arise not from anything strongly represented in-game currently, but past impressions of the game and experiences coloring people's current view. To those who clans appeal to, they are in a pretty good state at the moment, with some having changed recently and some others possibly in the process of changing. Like anything in the game, exact numbers tend to fluctuate with people's willingness to try or not try something different after their character dies or goes into storage. But people tend to be nostalgic and/or let perfect be the enemy of good. Life oaths, indies, clans, etc. aren't bad all the time or good all the time.

I'm not saying that things shouldn't be improved where possible, and there could always be improvements to be made with stuff like clan documentation to handle things like clan pay and instances of when life oaths are offered, or matching the the difficulties of areas outside cities with the documentation that says that citizens of the city-states fear going outside of their protection, but some of the perceived problems are definitely being overblown.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: rodic on July 18, 2014, 11:38:59 PM
I didn't get that from Rodic's tirade at all. What I got from it was: Rodic's life is so hectic that he's frustrated with his real life, angry and bitter about it, and wants to escape reality by parking a fictional character in one spot for an indeterminate length of time, and not have to worry about whether or not he has to actually interact with other characters while his is there.

Sounds like he needs either a first-person shooter, or a turn-based MUSH instead of an RPI. RPIs require interaction, and they require that you are actually paying attention to what's going on, because at any moment, something can happen that'll be the end of your character permanently. I'm sorry Rodic is going through such turmoil but really, Armageddon has no responsibility to fix it, and playing an indie just so you can step away from the computer to make coffee and have a cigarette or yes - even take care of your children - does not correlate with Armageddon needing to accommodate your "away from the keyboard" life.

Armageddon shouldn't be easier OR harder on players just because players want to get away from the keyboard. That shouldn't even be a consideration. That's a player-side concern, not a game-side concern, and you should have absolutely zero expectations to that end from the creators of Armageddon (or any other game for that matter).

Some people don't like clan play. That's the only useful information you can get from Rodic's post. And it's true. Some don't. The question is - how can clan play be made more attractive to those people who MIGHT play in clans? If you have no intention of playing in clans because they're clans - then this entire thread doesn't even apply to you at all.

But for people who WOULD want to play in a clan, if clan play was made more attractive - there have been several ideas to do that here on this thread, and others.



Again I never ask for anything then others to stop with the make harder on indies because their clan sucks and no one wants to play in it.

I was tired of hearing "Indies need it harder" when clearly its hard enough.  Yeah I raged a little. Deal with it.  Clans can suck, and I would like to play the game too, so trying destroy indie play style is so grossly myopic and functionally wrong from design point. That I decided to speak up.

As well there is no turmoil in my life, don't pretend you know me as a player or as person, it was insulting and uncalled for.  



Your Ad hominem attacks speak volumes though, mainly about you.


How's them sour grapes?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: racurtne on July 19, 2014, 12:15:22 AM

rather than spoiling the indie scene (heh) entirely.

I didn't say make it UNPLAYABLE. No character should be self sustainable out of char gen WITHOUT RISK.


I'm on board with that.  I just don't think the solution is to pile on indie hate. I think the solution is to make clans more attractive. The first option just leaves some people feeling bitter, whereas the second option is good for everybody. That's all I'm talking about.

edit:Indies should still have it hard IC, don't get me wrong. We just don't need to push too far in that direction. I'm advising caution is all.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 19, 2014, 12:52:08 AM
I think there are times when indies will be more attractive for the same reason that clans are more attractive. Someone wonderful will make all those hardships feel exciting. They'll be charismatic enough to care out a place for them. And if the established clans have an issue with it they can play the part of antagonist.

Some day Kadius will be the best place to play. Because someone amazing will find amazing things for everyone to do. And the issues of pay and curtailed freedoms will be non-issues. Later it will be Kurac. The Byn.

I think elite units and better pay are worth considering.

I just don't think things are that broken.

Rodic, I in no way think you should stfu or are less entitled to an opinion because you are new. I do think that you shouldn't be too quick to give up on clans. You may find that sometimes they suck. Sometimes they rock. You have to be in the right place at the right time. Also, don't be too quick to want to make indie life easy. Once you're on the other side of the learning curve you might find the challenges really enjoyable.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fathi on July 19, 2014, 01:58:58 AM
I feel like people make such a big deal on the GDB about swearing oaths compared to the actual game.

I've played a few PCs that eventually rose up to leader-level in their respective clans. Two of them were required to swear their blood to their organisation and/or go through arcane promotion rituals and blah blah.

Both of them were able to finagle a way out of the clan without dying eventually. One was offered the ability to buy her oath back and receive the equivalent of an honourable discharge. The other was given a couple plot specific tasks to fulfill and was allowed to take her leave.

I've found staff very willing to work with me on this issue in the past. PC leaders took more buttering up and bribing, but it worked on them, too.

The shift toward requiring everybody and his mum to swear an oath seems to be a recent development, since I certainly didn't force that on anyone back when I ran Salarr in 07-08 or Kurac in 08-10. It was an option if people wanted it and it came with extra perks and a lot more trust from the boss, but it was by no means required. I viewed it like the difference between hiring contractors vs. hiring an employee and training them up from scratch.

It's important to remember that if you're a good enough employee and you butter your boss up nicely, they will likely be OK with trying to break the rules for you in the future.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 19, 2014, 03:09:12 AM
I think I see a common thread that people think the golden age was when -they- played and when -they- were the leader.
Nice backhanded way to say leaders now or at other times are no good.

That's actually not what I was saying at all, and I certainly wasn't leading all those clans at the times mentioned. These "Golden Age" periods come more from the preponderance of GDB posters who look back on them fondly.  That doesn't mean other eras (including the present) in those clans didn't rock. It also doesn't actually mean it was the best that clan ever was. Just that it was the best that clan ever was as remembered by veteran players who also still post on the GDB and had first hand knowledge of the clan in question at the time of the awesomeness.

In no way, shape, or form should anyone take that as dispersion on their own clan contributions or experiences.

And if someone feels bad because they weren't around for these fabled "Golden Eras"? Simple solution. Turn NOW into gold.. Be the next Berlian. The next Shatuka. The next Malenthis.  Is that actually simple? No. It's a combination of good ideas, well planned characters, timing, allies, and game events. But it is in everyone's power to try, to contribute.




Also, Lizzie, there's no need to piss in Rodic's Cheerios.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the game as it is based on your life and habits, as long as you aren't twinkling or docs breaking.  Granted, we can't always keep those aspects of the game that we love. Sometimes they change for the greater good. But there's no need to bust someone's balls for enjoying them now.  :P
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 19, 2014, 03:26:14 AM
The latest set of problems discussed in this thread seems to arise not from anything strongly represented in-game currently, but past impressions of the game and experiences coloring people's current view.

Considering past and present are being compared in those parts of the discussion, I think those impressions and experiences are valid in context. Just because something in the present is good, doesn't mean you can seek to improve it, especially when you've experienced it in a better fashion. You can't move forward without knowing your past, as the saying goes.

I'm not saying that things shouldn't be improved where possible, and there could always be improvements to be made with stuff like clan documentation to handle things like clan pay and instances of when life oaths are offered, or matching the the difficulties of areas outside cities with the documentation that says that citizens of the city-states fear going outside of their protection, but some of the perceived problems are definitely being overblown.

Things being improved where possible is usually the driving force of discussions like this. And as a forum vet I think you know well enough that when we place specific problems under the GDB microscope, they often come out looking bigger than they are. That doesn't invalidate them, it just means they should be taken with a grain of salt. If through such heated discussions though we manage to fix even a minor issue here and there, I think the game is healthier for it. It certainly beats not mentioning a problem at all, however minor, if it could be addressed.

I was tired of hearing "Indies need it harder" when clearly its hard enough.  Yeah I raged a little. Deal with it.  Clans can suck, and I would like to play the game too, so trying destroy indie play style is so grossly myopic and functionally wrong from design point. That I decided to speak up.

Rodic, don't stress over the indie hate. It can be hard, especially when every other thread someone's telling indies to suck it, but it's harmless. Indies are just the bogeymen of the GDB, the group that everyone loves to hate. They're responsible for just about everything wrong in the game, even when they have nothing to do with something. From economy issues to clans to combat balance to foul weather and cows drying up to you name it. Something sucks because... indies.

Just smile and nod and keep playing what you enjoy playing, whatever that might be. Now and then try to get out of your comfort zone, just to test the waters and keep things interesting. But definitely don't let yourself get riled up over this, and don't think that staff is in the habit of making sweeping changes just because someone used caps and asked a lot. Next week it'll be North vs South, then magickers, after that warriors, then rangers, and from rangers naturally back to indies since we all know every indie is a ranger, right?

Both of them were able to finagle a way out of the clan without dying eventually.

Sadly you're not the exception in that, Fathi. It's something both Lizzie and I raised earlier, as one of the issues with oaths. They can be anything but life-long often enough that it's taken away from their meaning. On paper they should be as hard to get out of as prying a gem off your neck. Since reality differs though, at least if the option of retirement is integrated across the board it gives a way out that's justified. And that would not only address a few other issues with life oaths, but make them less of a joke when a character inevitably gets out of one.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 19, 2014, 07:28:50 AM
As far as the perception that "elite clans like the Outriders are no longer allowed, so people don't want to play in a clan," I think that's a viewpoint  problem. For me at least, every GMH, noble, or militia clan is elite, compared to the masses of unwashed (V)NPCs our characters are usually struggling to rise above. Even a standard no-frill artisan in a GMH is worlds above an unaffiliated crafter-grebber in terms of resources, prestige, and safety. We as players shouldn't forget that.

You shouldn't underestimate viewpoint then and more specifically how people perceive a certain concept. Do you know how horrible it is to be stuck at luirs with no one to play with and a schedule to follow for almost a RL month? Once upon a time I did that though after I read the gunslinger by stephen king. It was either the gunslinger or watched a marathon of clint eastwood western movies.  Mind you, Kurac was a different clan then it is now. Still, every time i see a clint eastwood western I just think of outriders and wish I could play one.

To be honest, I don't know what it is about outriders specifically that I find so appealing. They just seem like the pinnacle of desert badassery. If you are surrounded by tons of gith, your wagon is down, you got people hurt and dying all around you and suddenly a single outrider shows up....you're saved!! Its ridiculous but these silly ideas drive people to endure so much mundane boring shit within the clan for so long, just for a chance to achieve that raging concept and image in their heads.

Sorry you can't really get the same feeling with positions anyone with the right shape of ears and a pulse can join. I know joining a clan is supposed to be considered amazing in game but from an ooc point of view its not a huge deal. Becoming an outrider in-game was a big achievement. That said, the people who applied for sponsored outrider roles don't count (they should have left it an in game achievement anyways).  
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 19, 2014, 08:02:32 AM
I get where Rodic's coming from, I've largely avoided posting in this thread because I already said my piece and that's that, however, sayying one's piece once doesn't seem to be enough for a good segment the "suck it, indies" crowd, no matter how many times they say it. I just assume they're trolling, me being trolled, yeah, wow, not a big deal, considering I post things just to irritate some of them, but it's obvious it's not just me. I agree that shitting all over someone else's playstyle is not productive, and certainly not a good way to increase player count. Don't run off the newbs, damnit.

We get it, you don't like indies, or them having coin, being able to survive, make things or even make cool shit happen. That's fine, that's your individual take on the game. It stops being fine when it starts seeming like an outright and continuous attack on anyone who doesn't think exactly as you do. Granted, there are IG rules to follow, and concepts to adhere to, but for the most part some of us think your clan sucks, and it's quite possibly because of the way it's being run, which might possibly be taken personally. There's two solutions, 1) bitch on the GDB about how indies have it too easy or 2) buck up and accept that hey, maybe there's something I can do to lure these players to my clan. I'd like to think the latter more productive, though the former certainly seems to hold more appeal to some.

I for one enjoy making my own schedule, deciding for myself who my enemies and allies are, and picking which expenses are of importance to me. I like the added risk that comes with playing an indie and managing it however I choose to. It can feel a little isolated at times, but I mostly take this as a sign that there's something that could use improvement on my part, not something that everyone else is responsible for. If put in a leadership position in a clan, I think we could all have fun, but I always hit a barrier with people who take things just a tad bit too seriously, so I don't even bother. You may have your reasoning for it, but I don't have to agree, so I'll take my ball and play elsewhere.

Meanwhile, the gist of the current conversation seems to be, open up the cool units, which, I can get behind that. I think it would really add a bit of appeal, as well as rethink the life oath, which that is another concern, as who wants to be life-oathed when some "suck it indies" denier of personal responsibility steps in with a sponsored role and makes everything double-plus unfun? Rather than choose to see indies as a potentially useful and productive niche, some elect to view them as an enemy and would rather the entire ecosystem stagnate than admit that yes, maybe something could be done to improve clans. I make this assumption because all efforts to suggest making clans more appealing are either shot down or ignored entirely in favor of useless bitching. I'm usually quite hesitant to deliver such criticism, and it's quite likely I've just let myself be trolled, but it grates on my nerves.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 19, 2014, 08:15:03 AM
I play a LOT of indies because I generally don't like clanned play anymore. So anyone who's thinking of *me* as one of those "suck it indies" people need to take a few steps back and calm the fuck down.

My opinion comes from my experiences, based on over a decade of playing, back when playing in a clan was BIG DEAL and there were "secrets" to "unlock" in each clan. Those secrets have either been completely retconned or made virtual, and are no longer available for players to learn about IG, and aren't on the history pages of the official game docs.

I see coded risk in playing an independent who leaves the city, but the risk is minimal once you've experienced it a few times. You know where all the mobs spawn, you know how to avoid them, you know how to kill them, you know how to get past them. Knowing where they ARE makes it EASY to play an independent. It doesn't need to be made difficult to play one, but it does need to be made less easy. It used to be ridiculously difficult, and I don't think anyone wants to have to return to that.

But looking at how quickly the shops are filled up with 5 of each, how many characters prosper, how difficult it is to hire - and keep - clanned hunters - tells me that SOMEONE is having a much easier time of it than they should.

If you want it easy, make an aide role that sits in the taverns all day. That's easy. If you want to go out hunting and killing dangerous creatures without a crew of hunters you trust to watch your back, then accept that it isn't, and shouldn't, be easy. It is, and should, be a challenge. I think it should be more challenging to solo-hunt. Not to be an indie, but to be one - without friends. No one should be able to walk out of the city gates, go into a common hunting area, and then go AFK while they make a cup of coffee, and expect their character to still be there when they get back.

That is an unreaslistic expectation. And by "unrealistic" I mean in an OOC way, not an IC way. The player should not be able to expect safety with their "gone" character. That was what Rodic was harping on, and why I shot back as I did.

If he has been able to expect safety when he does this, then there is something WRONG with the game. The game should NOT be offering him this expectation.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: racurtne on July 19, 2014, 08:23:15 AM
I think you misread then. When he said that stuff he was talking about using ranger quit.

Also, he mentioned using GONE if he was playing in a clan, forcing people to wait on him to continue RPing with him in certain circumstances.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 19, 2014, 08:35:16 AM
I think you misread then. When he said that stuff he was talking about using ranger quit.

Also, he mentioned using GONE if he was playing in a clan, forcing people to wait on him to continue RPing with him in certain circumstances.

Ah I did misread, you're right. I apologize to Rodic. However, the point still stands, in general: I don't think people are trying to make the game _harder_ for indies, because I don't think it's all that hard in the first place anymore. I think people want to return *some* of the challenge that used to exist, that no longer exists, to give players more of a reason to WANT to "group up" (as it's called in other games). And I still maintain that if you need to log out that often, then you should have your smoke and make your coffee before you log on. That way, you'll need to go "gone" or use your ranger quit less often, to take care of your family when/as needed.

If you're in a clan, and you're playing a ranger, you can STILL do that, and no one expects anything from you, and no one will have to wait for you to be "ungone." Just ooc to them that you have to leave, and then leave. And when you log back in, catch up with them wherever they are. If you are playing a ranger, you can track them.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Cutthroat on July 19, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
The latest set of problems discussed in this thread seems to arise not from anything strongly represented in-game currently, but past impressions of the game and experiences coloring people's current view.

Considering past and present are being compared in those parts of the discussion, I think those impressions and experiences are valid in context. Just because something in the present is good, doesn't mean you can seek to improve it, especially when you've experienced it in a better fashion. You can't move forward without knowing your past, as the saying goes.

I'm not saying that things shouldn't be improved where possible, and there could always be improvements to be made with stuff like clan documentation to handle things like clan pay and instances of when life oaths are offered, or matching the the difficulties of areas outside cities with the documentation that says that citizens of the city-states fear going outside of their protection, but some of the perceived problems are definitely being overblown.

Things being improved where possible is usually the driving force of discussions like this. And as a forum vet I think you know well enough that when we place specific problems under the GDB microscope, they often come out looking bigger than they are. That doesn't invalidate them, it just means they should be taken with a grain of salt. If through such heated discussions though we manage to fix even a minor issue here and there, I think the game is healthier for it. It certainly beats not mentioning a problem at all, however minor, if it could be addressed.

I don't have a problem with the problems in the game being addressed and worked on, and like I said, I also think the game could stand to be improved by threads like these. Even if staff don't necessarily change the game on their own, players who play or will play leader PCs can draw ideas from threads like this in their effort to make their clans better. Not to go too much on this particular tangent that was in this thread earlier as well, but this is also a good reason not to blame leader PCs for clans not being "fun enough" - it detracts from the fact that players of leader PCs are generally testing the water how they can, to figure out if what they are doing is enjoyable to others.

I just think that when people are starting to say that the "Golden Ages" were the times clans were at their most fun, their own limited viewpoint (due to being a player, and not an omniscient staff member) may have caused them to miss fun stuff going on elsewhere, and ultimately assume those other clans were not fun. Getting inspiration from past experiences to improve on clan experiences today is a good idea, but we should also accept that different experiences are going to be, well, different. That's part of what makes the game fresh enough for people to continue playing it.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 19, 2014, 10:34:17 AM
I believe that all the clans were fun...I do not pick one over the other.

But here is another thing that has, in my experience, gone missing. Rivalry. Again, going back 8-15 years, during that time, all the clans were rivals...Oh sure, the GMH would close ranks verses the other clans and the nobles would close ranks verses GMH and northern noble clans etc, but there was tons of interclan rivalry.

It was great fun...as example...sometime between 2002 and 2004 I played in winrothal, worked up from recruit to LT over the course of many game years....Now Winrothal just hated Tenneshi...and likely Tenneshi hated us. We in Winrothal were always doing whatever we could to undermine Tenneshi. My LT and his two sarges had quite the game going, and that game was, Get Tenneshi to recruit all the fuckups...we became quite successful with that.

Or playing in salarr and considering Kadius to be a second rate house and Kurac  and its "snort" outriders to be a bunch of self inflated spice addled blowhards.

Now, this type of thing could easily come back with simply players...no need to change docs or have staff change anything.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Red Ranger on July 19, 2014, 10:38:35 AM
Becoming an outrider in-game was a big achievement. That said, the people who applied for sponsored outrider roles don't count (they should have left it an in game achievement anyways).  

This is an important (derailing!) detail that I'll echo: one of the many things that made the Outriders so awesome was that once upon a time it was something that could only be achieved through IC toil, which made playing one much rarer than playing a noble or templar.

Back on topic (sort of): I'm personally very much in favor of moving away from "life swearing" for low level peons and killing them if they try to leave the clan after a week. IMO this is a result of an OOC contest for recruits, whereas IC'ly recruits shouldn't be scarce at all.

There is an OOC vs. IC supply/demand mismatch when it comes to clan recruits. It leads to this behavior here:

So yeah, I can understand recruiting every PC you can grab.  Because you have to hope that somewhere in there you've got that one lump of gold - if you can sift it out before someone steals your pan.

Snapping up every recruit totally makes sense within the context of the internecine conflict of Zalanthas where clans and individuals compete for scarce resources. Except ICíly recruits arenít a scarce resource. Itís only OOCíly that theyíre scarce.

Iím with IsFriday on this:

I'm of the opinion that hiring "just anyone" is harmful to most organizations (you can debate which ones on your own time/in a diff thread). Here are some reasons/examples:
1.) When your employees mess up, even your "recruits", it brings upon consequences for your organization. Leaders, especially those that worked hard for their position, don't want their gravy train/next promotion on the line because random douchebag recruit decided to start a fight with AoD. Oh yeah, that's the 3rd recruit you've had that started trouble with the law. Oh yeah, because of that, the Templar just cancelled his orders for X and X--instead he's going to go with someone else for weapons, just to spite you.

Or there should be consequences for the leaders when the peons crap the bed, at least for image conscious clans.

Iíve shared my opinion on this before:

I think there is a distortion of the supply and demand for potential hirelings in the eyes of leader PCs.  In my opinion, to a leader PC in a given city there is often a limited pool of hireling PCs compared to the large number of positions that multiple PC clans are trying to fill.  Thus OOC'ly the hiring scene can often play out like a "sellers' markers" where the potential PC hirelings shop around to get the best deal, which can include shopping around for a coddling and nonjudgmental employer PC who is willing to overlook many flaws in their PC employees and who may also go to war to protect their low level PC "snowflakes."

But there are additional ways to help correct the current situation of OOC hiring concerns directly contradicting and trumping IC hiring concerns.  This is a roleplaying game after all, and weíre all supposed to be acting ICíly based on IC concerns.  After all, isnít the OOC incentive for elves to ride mounts?  OOCíly it costs the riding elf less stamina when they travel around, so whatís not to like?   Isnít the OOC incentive for leader PCs to have magickers on the payroll?  After all, magickers are powerful and one magicker might be able to do the specialized work that any number mundane PCs canít.  Fortunately I havenít heard of a riding elf in many many years, and in my view the exceptions made for magicky PC employment in major clans have dramatically declined (though I guess maybe the exceptions made for magicky PC mudsex havenít declined (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43552.msg685109.html#msg685109)).

My preferred solution to the problem that I see in the OOC versus IC supply/demand mismatch in PC hirelings isÖ more conscientious RP.  ICíly hirelings donít have any rights, nor should they have a sense of entitlement to a good job with reasonable working conditions, those are silly RL notions that literally donít exist in Zalanthas.  Similarly employers shouldnít (typically) feel pressured IC to hire folks just to fill the ranks.  Having hirelings shouldnít be an important end in itself for most clan leaders, but rather Doing Something ImportantTM should be the end that is sought by PC leaders and ICíly rewarded.  If Doing Something ImportantTM requires making exceptions when hiring PCs and then coddling those PCs (which could be often!) then great, but there should also be an IC downside to nobles hiring mumbly mouthed dwarves who canít even speak the Kingís Sirihish properly, to merchants that employ halfbreeds, or to any leader who has a reputation for flying off the handle over trivial injuries to their mek-fodder peons who will be dead in a month.

Align the OOC and IC incentives, people!  Letís RP!

The gold sifting recruiters might be a bit more careful about scooping up everything they find if instead of mostly mud they occasionally get a venomous snake.

Also, this whole 2-page thread is worth a read: Are clans too nice to their minions? (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,43542.0.html)

edit: typo
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 19, 2014, 12:24:26 PM
I believe that all the clans were fun...I do not pick one over the other.

But here is another thing that has, in my experience, gone missing. Rivalry. Again, going back 8-15 years, during that time, all the clans were rivals...Oh sure, the GMH would close ranks verses the other clans and the nobles would close ranks verses GMH and northern noble clans etc, but there was tons of interclan rivalry.

It was great fun...as example...sometime between 2002 and 2004 I played in winrothal, worked up from recruit to LT over the course of many game years....Now Winrothal just hated Tenneshi...and likely Tenneshi hated us. We in Winrothal were always doing whatever we could to undermine Tenneshi. My LT and his two sarges had quite the game going, and that game was, Get Tenneshi to recruit all the fuckups...we became quite successful with that.

Or playing in salarr and considering Kadius to be a second rate house and Kurac  and its "snort" outriders to be a bunch of self inflated spice addled blowhards.

Now, this type of thing could easily come back with simply players...no need to change docs or have staff change anything.

This happens constantly now.

I think I'm taking this thread too personally. GDB gets me again.

It is a struggle to read docs and traditions as a leader and be taught ICly certain things and then have players constantly want special treatment.
Stay independent if you didn't want any rules or schedules and want to explore. No matter how much you bend or make interpretations it seems
that a percentage of the player base is not happy and will store or suicide because they in particular weren't the special one who gets to have
the rule ignored. First of all I just met you and you are as likely to be a thief or spy as you are a productive employee. MAYBE after the evaluation
period we'll talk. Perhaps it is a matter of perception. What do they think exactly is supposed to happen when they join a clan?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 19, 2014, 12:43:28 PM
Quote
This happens constantly now.

If so, good, though that was not the case in the last few clans I played...course I admit that was around 3-4 years ago for the last one.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Harmless on July 19, 2014, 12:54:02 PM
This discussion was really good. Seeing Italis make the astute observation that GMH have been having "life-oath" creep in particular was really good. I am optimistic that GMH will make changes in the right direction and I look forward to my next GMH PC now.

Once again, my stance: The very lowest level of "leadership role" should be available to those who are not "life swearing." In most GMH this refers to the rank of Corporal, Merc, whatever. Maybe even sergeant in exceptional cases. Anything higher than that, or special units, etc, are fine to have a life oath requirement as the responsibility rapidly does increase.

A change towards this direction will be helpful to GMH.

Noble houses probably don't need to be much different than they are. This applies only to Salarr, Kadius, and to a lesser extent, Kurac, because the culture of Kurac has always been this way. Salarr and Kadius had no reason to become so "elitist," and a move in the reverse direction will greatly benefit the community.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 19, 2014, 01:02:25 PM
Yeah, well, post evaluation period is what I'm talking, Kankwhisperer. Somehow I believe people read the documentation and interpret it a certain way, and in some cases at least, it's not conducive to good ol harmless fun. In fact, if the crackdown on fun is so systemic, and I can only speak for myself here, but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, I'm going to pull up my roots and set off for untainted lands. I'm pretty sure a good deal of us wouldn't ask for or want special treatment, the challenge for your PC to prove itself to others is part of the fun and a great aid in defining your PC, it's just when these goals turn impossible, become unfun, take too much out of us, as players of a game, that we grow frustrated.

This is for everyone in a leadership position, btw, not just Kankwhisperer.

You only want a certain type of person in you clan, well, that's fine, but I don't want to hear any bitching when the other types look elsewhere, besides, you'd readily admit you neither need nor want them mucking up the works, so why the complaints, anyway? Schedules and such are a pain, yes, but one that will readily be endured under the right conditions. Constantly struggling to prove your worth and find ways to contribute, even above and beyond the expected amount while someone continues to piss in your ale is one of those big turn-offs that really, why do I put myself through this rigorous training, put up with this grouch that likes to constantly find fault, and toss my PC's life on the line at every turn to achieve some goal when it's about as appreciated as a great big turd on an expensive rug?

Just my experience, likely an effective leadership style, just, some of us would rather not deal with that.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 19, 2014, 01:11:37 PM
I have been playing this game for 15 years. There are people who have been playing longer than me. I have absolutely no desire to troll independents. But I have no issue at all suggesting what I consider to be realistic additions and subtractions to the world. It makes no sense to me that Nenyuk keeps records for Joe Smoe and his 300 sid across the Known, which is the only thing I have suggested at all.

This thread is full of suggestions and conceptions. Don't take them personally.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 19, 2014, 01:22:00 PM
Add in Minimum deposits and a handling fee for withdrawals. 
Make them both Zalanthan-level harsh.


Code: [Select]
>Deposit 200
The portly banker says to you in Southern-accented Sirihish,
   "Come back when you have a large, pissant."

(which means that any given PC may have up to a large in coin on them at any given time. HELLO, Pickpockets and thugs!

Code: [Select]
>withdraw 200
The portly banker says to you in Southern-accented Sirihish,
   "Quit wasting my time, pissant."
250 coins have been deducted from your account. (25%)

>inventory
200 Allanaki coins

Code: [Select]
>Deposit 1000
The portly banker says to you in Southern-accented Sirihish,
   "Thank you for you business."

>withdrawl 1000
The portly banker says to you in Southern-accented Sirihish,
   "May they bring you many more coins in return!"
1050 coins have been deducted from your account. (5%)
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 19, 2014, 01:42:28 PM
For all the indy haters...  if you build it, they will come.

I could be wrong here but for whatever their specific reasons are, indys don't join clans because playing any indy is more fun.  Rather than making playing an indy less fun, if we make clan play more fun the game becomes more fun over all (rather than less fun).   Think about it.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: rodic on July 19, 2014, 01:49:00 PM
PAGE ROLL
I think you misread then. When he said that stuff he was talking about using ranger quit.

Also, he mentioned using GONE if he was playing in a clan, forcing people to wait on him to continue RPing with him in certain circumstances.

Ah I did misread, you're right. I apologize to Rodic. However, the point still stands, in general: I don't think people are trying to make the game _harder_ for indies, because I don't think it's all that hard in the first place anymore. I think people want to return *some* of the challenge that used to exist, that no longer exists, to give players more of a reason to WANT to "group up" (as it's called in other games). And I still maintain that if you need to log out that often, then you should have your smoke and make your coffee before you log on. That way, you'll need to go "gone" or use your ranger quit less often, to take care of your family when/as needed.

If you're in a clan, and you're playing a ranger, you can STILL do that, and no one expects anything from you, and no one will have to wait for you to be "ungone." Just ooc to them that you have to leave, and then leave. And when you log back in, catch up with them wherever they are. If you are playing a ranger, you can track them.



Apology accepted, I tend to rage so I can understand your response.

I avoid clans because honestly, as player... I'm in the way.  If I happen to tag a long, people will be waiting for me at SOME point.  I might not even be able to come back.

As well, when I do log on, I'm not going to have the patience for a schedule, when I really wanna do is X but the schedule is Y.

Whether that's solo hunting or tavern interaction, I don't have the ability for an initial time investment that other players do.  Nor do I want my play to be restricted.

My anger comes from this "harder on indies".  which is such a non-solution its not even funny.  If clans where really all that great, then why do indies need nerf/hurt/whatever?  Makes no sense.

People don't play clanned, and often its punishment in its own right in terms of what available to them. 
I fail to see making it harder on the folks who don't wanna clan is going to make clans any better, you'll just make part of player base angry, and you might lose some players.  And thus nothing was solved because now there are even LESS players to interact with.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: valeria on July 19, 2014, 01:50:51 PM
And I don't usually play indies because I find playing in clans more fun.  I think it's really just a matter of perspective.  But if the idea is that indies are more fun because you have no rules, you can go anywhere, you can do anything you want, and you can make a bunch of money, let's not turn clans into that.  Then we wouldn't have a place for people who like structure, tradition, prestige, and a different type of conflict.

I just don't think that we need to make clans appealing to people who like to play independents, or to make playing independents appealing to people who like to play clanned characters.  Different people are going to have different things that they like to play.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 19, 2014, 02:13:56 PM
For all the indy haters...  if you build it, they will come.

I could be wrong here but for whatever their specific reasons are, indys don't join clans because playing any indy is more fun.  Rather than making playing an indy less fun, if we make clan play more fun the game becomes more fun over all (rather than less fun).   Think about it.

I, too, find indies more fun to play on the whole.  Different strokes and all that.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 19, 2014, 02:37:39 PM
I like my discussions with less vitriol if possible, please.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Hicksville Hoochie on July 19, 2014, 03:01:49 PM
I think one thing that could be done to bridge the clan/indie gap is to add more synergy between the two. I can't really say HOW I would do that, but when a Noble's stipend for a month is outdone by someone who visits the salt flats daily, buys the best he/she can in a week, and no longer has any need of anything, the balance is a bit skewed, and in my opinion, kind of kills the 'prestige' that a clanned role should have when such a person is being looked at from the outside-in.

That isn't saying to start dumping coins in the laps of clanned folks, though. It was mentioned way earlier in the thread that jobs (salting/dung sweeping/cotton picking/etc) should pay in resources other than flat coin, such as food/water. I found that to be a pretty enticing idea (at least imo), and would bring the economy more in line with the docs, in which most independents aren't exactly well-to-do. Shops having limited coin and only accepting so many of a particular item seems fine to me, as I imagine if a shop owner has a ton of one thing, and it isn't selling, he'd not give up his food/water money on a gamble when he can't say it will sell.

This would push open more interaction as well, for grebbers/hunters being needed by other pcs who actually need the wares they're snagging in the wastes and bringing back to that already-loaded shopkeeper. Those wealthy salters would actually have to get their hands dirty and interact in order to buy that mek-hide armor and Tor-hair-strung shortbow.

The more difficult banking ideas seemed nice to me as well. If you're not wearing any sort of livery, taking you to the cleaners isn't going to attract the ire of any important people, so why not charge a stabling fee for that five large you just brought in? That's a lot of space to take up in a vault for someone who is actually no one. This would in-turn make the thievish classes more enticing to play as well, because those not wanting to pay the piper would be in charge of protecting their miniature fortunes.

Not just to harp on indy-ease though (As I'm sure it's a little more difficult than I'm making it sound, I play about a 3-1 ratio of clanned to indy myself), but having a little standout perk or two to most clans could also be enticing. Not exactly something to say 'play here or you're screwed', but something to add flavor to the role, whatever it may be? Give militia officers those old clawed bracers/gloves that would sneak in an occasional attack, give GMH hunters/crafters something that gives a little skill bonus to archery/crafting perhaps, add that discussed discount to food/drinks to any aides wearing a cloak of their House's livery, etc.

Not to say I'm unhappy with the state of the game or anything, I've had a blast over the past couple of years, and this last year especially. I just figured that with all the time I'm spending reading the thread, I should at least contribute an opinion.  :P

(Also, imms, open Tor and let me play a noble with a pet Mekillot mount that comes with a mounter rapid-repeating crossbow on one shoulder, and a greek-fire cannon on the other. I promise I'll only abuse it when anything with a pulse crosses my path!)
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 19, 2014, 03:13:24 PM
Yeah, well, post evaluation period is what I'm talking, Kankwhisperer. Somehow I believe people read the documentation and interpret it a certain way, and in some cases at least, it's not conducive to good ol harmless fun. In fact, if the crackdown on fun is so systemic, and I can only speak for myself here, but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, I'm going to pull up my roots and set off for untainted lands. I'm pretty sure a good deal of us wouldn't ask for or want special treatment, the challenge for your PC to prove itself to others is part of the fun and a great aid in defining your PC, it's just when these goals turn impossible, become unfun, take too much out of us, as players of a game, that we grow frustrated.

This is for everyone in a leadership position, btw, not just Kankwhisperer.

You only want a certain type of person in you clan, well, that's fine, but I don't want to hear any bitching when the other types look elsewhere, besides, you'd readily admit you neither need nor want them mucking up the works, so why the complaints, anyway? Schedules and such are a pain, yes, but one that will readily be endured under the right conditions. Constantly struggling to prove your worth and find ways to contribute, even above and beyond the expected amount while someone continues to piss in your ale is one of those big turn-offs that really, why do I put myself through this rigorous training, put up with this grouch that likes to constantly find fault, and toss my PC's life on the line at every turn to achieve some goal when it's about as appreciated as a great big turd on an expensive rug?

Just my experience, likely an effective leadership style, just, some of us would rather not deal with that.

Really I'm not bitching about getting people to join. My clan has 10 people online at times. I just hate the bitching about how nothing is fun and I tend to take it personally. Sometimes it is not fun trying to "stay in your lane" and true to your character while also making things interesting for everyone. It's not as easy as some people think to actually get a meaningful plot going in those constrictions. The clan docs are there so the leader doesn't have to watch you 24/7. You should be doing this unless you have a good reason to do that. Being bored and used to being an indie is not a good reason. I feel like a lot of people have unreasonable expectations about how much fun a leader can force you to have.

My main complaint is that the ceiling for players in clans is too low. Let us go higher until we fuck up and die. Open the elite sections so you can have a carrot for your long lived elite players. They are already coded and they already exist along with gear, so why not? You can order people to basically do exactly the same thing as an elite but the title is what attracts some people, just like in real life. It doesn't change that much but it keeps the players striving for something. It gives them a little feather in their cap.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 19, 2014, 03:31:50 PM
+1 to elite sub-organizations. We all wants it.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 19, 2014, 03:33:45 PM
Kankwhisperer makes a lot of good points.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 19, 2014, 03:39:06 PM
I'll also add that as KankWhisperer says, I don't think people realize just how restricted leadership is by the docs/staff on purpose.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 19, 2014, 03:50:04 PM
Indie lovers, the reason clan lovers are saying its too easy to be an indie is not because they are trying to force you to be in a clan. They are saying the gameworld should make you want to be in a clan.  That if it doesn't make you want to, there is probably something wrong with it.

There is also a long history of indies having more money than anyone except maybe nobles. Again, that probably isn't realistic, and means that something may need changing.

Also, clan schedules are not there to limit your fun. They are there to help you RP what being in a clan would realistically would be like.  All of this is about realism. Not about trying to make you play the way they want you to. If it sounds like that, it is probably because they believe the world should make you want to, not that they do. 98% of these opinions aren't personal attacks.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Patuk on July 19, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
I agree with the sentiment of clans needing something extra to draw in people. As-is, a clan can't offer much that a person couldn't get if they did well as someone playing independent. For clans to get fuller, ramp up the benefits.

The whole 'bring back elite units' is a step in the good direction, but we can do better than that; if your supposedly elite pc ends up with the exact same gear and skills as someone who's stayed on their own all their life, the status of elite is meaningless. We could up the benefits instead.

Give elite units ways to back up their supposedly elite status; I'm not talking about social or political status or anything in that general area, I think an elite unit would need some actual way to discern itself. The old fighting style docs, for example, state that Zalanthas' various elite units may or may not have tricks of their own: if an old Kadian falcon warmaster would teach every new falcon his way of feinting, and if every Kuraci outrider would receive a badass glaive and get the polearms skill for free because that's just how they fight, we're taking a step in the right direction.

Another issue is gear. I haven't the time or even the inclination to meaaure how every sword in the game measures up to the other, but I do think that what clanned people get should outclass the more common gear by some margin. I know for a fact the game has kryl acid resistant armor; why this kind of thing isn't standard issue for northern officers is beyond me. Similarly, trusted salarri employees should end up owning gear no unaffiliated person could ever attain, by sheer virtue of it being too scarce to sell. That such things are not happenimg already is a deep shame.

Tl;dr if you want to make clans more attractive, don't half-ass it, but up the ante instead.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 19, 2014, 04:10:39 PM
The thing that gets me the most about this thread is that like half the complaints are either stating things that do happen don't happen, or complaining that something that can easily be changed or handled by PCs in game is no longer possible.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 19, 2014, 04:12:32 PM
I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 19, 2014, 04:14:36 PM
It already exists.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 19, 2014, 04:16:23 PM
I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

One thing I'd say is, I'd love if all clan cloaks had pockets. It's such a small thing. It would be good.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 19, 2014, 04:20:11 PM
I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

One thing I'd say is, I'd love if all clan cloaks had pockets. It's such a small thing. It would be good.

File a staff request saying "It'd be nice if our cloaks had pockets." It worked for my clan.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 19, 2014, 04:20:47 PM
I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

FOR IT.  Getting sweet, rarely seen gear is one of the best things about being in a clan.

When I swore my oaths on my Red Scorpion PC, the current Lord Tor gave me some rocksauce gear I have never seen before or since.  My PC was constantly getting questions about it.  It was sweet.

The problem is, I don't know where he got it.  Most non-merchant leader types don't necessarily have access to that stuff.  More access to more sweet gear equals more better, IMHO.

Staff, if you are interested in this path, I will absolutely volunteer to sift the database and find a list of stuff for individual clan shops that only leaders can access.  I will even write the NPCs.

100% for it.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 19, 2014, 04:24:34 PM
I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

I won't go as far as saying every clan has great gear floating in the database, but Salarr, for example, has a variety of amazing clan specific items that they are encouraged to distribute to proven employees.

Many of the regularly played noble houses have fancy gear that's not noble specific, and I'm sure Kadius and Kurac have a lot of hot duds too.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 19, 2014, 04:28:02 PM
It already exists.

To some extent it exists.  Merchant Houses, obviously, have tons of stuff they could give, if the guard wing gets together with the mercantile wing, to give some bonuses.

Militia have access to militia weapons.

But for the rest, the problem is, even if coded House gear exists, the PCs have no direct access to it.  They can request it from clan staff, who are usually glad to help, but they don't always want to bother staff, and they don't always know what they want/need without looking at a list.

I am referring to this largely on the context of "give cool stuff with important promotions" Not just "get access to stuff for being in a clan."  The lists usually arent that large, which means if they are readily or frequently available, they will become commonplace, which kinda defeats the "cool" part.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 19, 2014, 04:30:14 PM
You know what? I've only been playying a year, and I've seen leadership styles change -so- much over the course of that year in one particular clan. Yeah, there's not a lot you can do about certain things, but there is a FUCKTON you can do about how you treat your subordinates, and people outside your sphere of influence, your customers... I've seen it change in a drastic manner, so obviously, there's more than a little wiggle room in there. Maybe if you'd evaluate what you punish people for, what you give them a pass on, what you reward them for, what you do or do not promote them for, then you may be able to stave off the whole "your schedule and rules suck" by just being awesome to work for, but if that's a problem for you, if the documents are SO restrictive you can't bend or break the rules on occassion, then, well, all the more reason to speak with your feet.

And I've said it before, indies are in a precarious situation, they aren't afforded the same protections, and if they want them, they have to work out the deals themselves, which, coin being meaningless, is actually pretty difficult to do. This, strangely, costs a bit of meaningless coin, but it's not about the coin, the coin is simply a symbol of appreciation, living another day is priceless, the coin doesn't do this, the player does by not being a douchewad and properly negotiating the deals they need. Clans do this for you, they also cook you up fancy food, give you a place for storage, etc. These are not to be sneered at, they are good rewards, but just as easily rendered meaningless by a boss that makes you miserable. All that coin the indie gets? Yeah, that needs to get taxxed, if it's not already, by various criminal organizations and militias, if you're not fricking bribing someone, you're taking a huge risk.

Amos salter's job may seem boring and ho-hum, until a raider or mekillot or rogue mage happens upon him, and then, well, it just got exciting real fast, though, it may not last long, on account of him being eaten. I don't care if he's decked out in horror plate, if he's not payying attention, Amos gets et. Enough ho-hum hours, days, weeks on the flat? Eventually a salt worm is going to eat him or something. So much for wealthy Amos. Alas, time to find a new indie to pump for the coin we need.

In the end open elite units, pay clannies more, some kind of clan apartment system for lifesworn, blah blah blah, basically all the great suggestions I've read so far. Because, the whole point in the beginning was, WE CAN'T EVEN AFFORD ALE ON THIS AMOUNT. It's entirely reasonable to expect the Merchant Houses and perhaps the Byn to make booze allowances. Oh, and clan specific gear for promotions. You KNOW how awesome this would be. Why not?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: valeria on July 19, 2014, 04:31:57 PM
I'm all for elite units delineated by specific gear.  The only thing is, I'd rather have it progress organically in the game world, such as being pressed for by Guard Amos's noble when Guard Amos has been around for 2 RL years or whatever, than have staff just announce that such positions are now available and suddenly having everyone strive for it.  More like staff says sure we'll support that, it's possible; rather than staff says House Nipchik is suddenly allowing players obtain the role of Pink Guardsman.

And as I've mentioned elsewhere (I too lazy to search and link), I think being a long-term member of a clan should come with some sort of clan-based housing.  Maybe a shitty room, but a shitty room at a very low cost that clannies can easily afford, and can decorate and bring their friends/conspirators/mudsexx buddies/whatever to.  Everybody like having a room.

The main reasons why I'm against ideas that boil down to nerf indies/make indies more integrated is that a lot of times, someone--let's use the example of an off-peak player--is playing an indie exactly because she can't easily integrate anywhere given her playtimes.  And I don't want to make things even harder on off peak players.  Sometimes you just really can't find anyone to interact with.  And frankly, you shouldn't have to be forced to.  Different people like playing different things and Arm should support that.

As for the wealth divides, I've never made nine jillion coins with my indies.  Let's not confuse 'playing an independent' with 'twinking an independent 20 hours a week'.  Anyone is going to be able to break a system if their try.  But maybe if you see an exploit, you should notify staff.  I have noticed that one thing I accidentally found out that you could sell in X location for a buttton of coins, you're no longer able to do that, so I do think they fix those things.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 19, 2014, 04:32:24 PM
 Why do people care if they've got you in their clan to the point of acting unrealistic to get you in? There's plenty of clanned people at any time who don't need to be restricted in their schedules. If anything I would think that would be more interesting than being on a serious mission to get two more people to chat with in the crafting room. To hunt with, sure. But things have been for a long time that some person in Salaar could hunt with Kadians and it wouldn't matter. Not everybody, but almost so.

Anyone who tells me that they don't get accousted to join the clan from every clanned person they see during their first RL week of play is playing a breed rinthi or is playing somewhere I would kill to go play in. Getting a new pc used to be like opening a shiny new present; now I just go into waiting mode and don't plan on a full experience until after a week of play. The HRPT is over, fellow armers, you can stop recruiting like your life depends on it.

I bet more people would be clanned a lot more often if there were more close to poverty, socially gritty clans. Byn's the only one that's open, and as far as I can tell staff are trying to keep people out of it. Would help reduce the Byn's importance as a stepping stone from nothing to possibly considered for employment too.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 19, 2014, 05:09:43 PM
The thing is Valeria, it has been pushed in certain clans. Just been told no.

If everyone in the clan isn't of a high enough rank -to- push it, then it becomes a frustration.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 19, 2014, 05:11:51 PM
Here's how a merchant house boss could get extra coin to pay subordinates in need of a reward:

GMH boss: "We've heard you've been making and selling X for lower than the amount we charge, this is infringing on our market share. I'm sure you know which options that leaves me, however, I might be tempted to look the other way if you make it worth my while."

Indie merchant: "But it's just a pair of chopsticks/nunchaku/garden hoe! How is that infringement?! I don't understand!"

GMH boss: "It's infringement because now my crafters can't make the extra coin to fund their silk-burning habit, that stuff's expensive, you see? Basically, it is because I say it is, and who do you think they'll believe, anyway? I want one large on my desk by sundown, and we won't bother you for X amount of time."

Easy peasey. If Derpina doesn't fork over the dough, start having her tailed and harassed, if she still doesn't get it, well, an example needs to be made, easily accomplished with a well timed knife in the back. The next one WILL pay more attention to the sword hanging over their head.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: valeria on July 19, 2014, 05:16:01 PM
The thing is Valeria, it has been pushed in certain clans. Just been told no.

I know.  What I said is, if staff is open to the idea, I'd rather have staff say "this is a possibility" than say "House Nipchik's Pink Guard is now open if you've played a really long time in that House."  I think the second option would unfairly push a bunch of goal-oriented types into House Nipchik to the disadvantage of other clans.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Patuk on July 19, 2014, 05:19:31 PM
The thing is Valeria, it has been pushed in certain clans. Just been told no.

I know.  What I said is, if staff is open to the idea, I'd rather have staff say "this is a possibility" than say "House Nipchik's Pink Guard is now open if you've played a really long time in that House."  I think the second option would unfairly push a bunch of goal-oriented types into House Nipchik to the disadvantage of other clans.

Right. So you open up every clan's elite unit. Most every clan open now has one, and it makes sense for them to be as well. It's not an unfair advantage if it applies across the board.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 19, 2014, 05:23:41 PM
First, I am always amused by the "Indies have more Lootz!"

Now, least for me, sure, when I play indy I can keep them easily with a respectable bank account...but when I play long term clan that bank account is almost always silly...stupidly rich. And I cannot be the only one.
Course now days I keep a PC at the wealth level I think that PC should be at...IE, coins are meaningless, I have other things to do.

Now Patuk wrote:
 
Quote
but we can do better than that; if your supposedly elite pc ends up with the exact same gear and skills as someone who's stayed on their own all their life

All the elite groups have gear specific to that group, and it is rather elite as well. The only way you would be able to get that gear is to be an elite member of that group or to kill one of them and take it...Of course, once somebody saw you in said gear, your days would be numbered.

On the subject of skills...now that is one nobody has brought up.
My take on that would be, since if you are in one of those groups, it would be cool if staff was willing to let those members learn say, up to 3 more skills off an approved list assuming you had teachers IG etc. I mean after all, if you are an outrider, you are life oathed fanatic and not going anywhere.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Patuk on July 19, 2014, 05:26:34 PM
I have no issue with an elite-level salarri being targeted by a crewof elves because they think that sword of doom could be put to better use. Bring it on, bitches.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 19, 2014, 05:30:55 PM
Grin, we are in agreement there.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: valeria on July 19, 2014, 06:30:00 PM
The thing is Valeria, it has been pushed in certain clans. Just been told no.

I know.  What I said is, if staff is open to the idea, I'd rather have staff say "this is a possibility" than say "House Nipchik's Pink Guard is now open if you've played a really long time in that House."  I think the second option would unfairly push a bunch of goal-oriented types into House Nipchik to the disadvantage of other clans.

Right. So you open up every clan's elite unit. Most every clan open now has one, and it makes sense for them to be as well. It's not an unfair advantage if it applies across the board.

Patuk says what I was trying to say better than how I said it.  With one addendum: The other thing I was trying to say (badly) was that getting into an elite unit should as always depend on how hard a sponsoring character pushes for it for their underling.  There should be no entitlement to get into one after X years or whatever.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 19, 2014, 06:37:29 PM
YES! no promotion by attrition. If you want more than than the basic you should have to strive.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Ouroboros on July 19, 2014, 07:21:21 PM
Fair Warning: This is going to be a long one, even for me, so consider yourselves forewarned. I'm starting off with a small response to 7D, but that's not what the majority of the post relates to. It relates to clans vs indies, as well as things that could improve clans. If you've the patience to read through, go for it. If you opt for the TL;DR; route, no hard feelings either. That said, it would likely serve you well to read through if you're at all invested in this discussion.


It makes no sense to me that Nenyuk keeps records for Joe Smoe and his 300 sid across the Known, which is the only thing I have suggested at all.

It's kinda their job man, and they're quite good at it. They bank, pun intended, on the fact that Joe will eventually bite the dust and leave them with a 300 sid profit. This being Zalanthas, much sooner than later. And that profit practically cost them little to nothing in and of itself, they're essentially holding money that long-term is likely to be their own. The desert is filled with as many bones of wealthy indies as there are coins in Nenyuk's coffers.

Compare that to Salarr or Kadius who are just as interested in taking Joe's coin but have to offer in return something that costs them. By your reasoning no GMH should be interested in dealing with commoners, but the fact is every GMH's bottom line is profit and it rarely matter where it comes from.

I can see any number of OOC arguments against indie having access to banks, and while I'll never agree with them because I feel it would destroy the game, I can respect them. From an IC stand-point though, I really can't see any valid arguments for such a change. Just my view though, and each is entitled to their own.


Related General Note: The biggest misconception in the game is that wealth matters, likely because it plays such an important role not only in the real world but in most games as well. In Armageddon it really doesn't. A highborn with 100 'sid in his pocket is still a highborn, with the full social, political and financial backing of his Noble family behind them. A GMH employee with 500 'sid in his pocket still wears the colors of a House that can financially crush anyone but another GMH and has all the perks that come with it, as well as knowing exactly when and how much his next paycheck is going to be. An independent commoner with 1,000 'sid in his pocket is a walking, talking target for every pickpocket and burglar, raider, corrupt militia member, or any Templar he crosses paths with. He knows where today's meal is coming from, and that it might be tasty, but doesn't know when next week's meal will come from. And if he can afford decent gear he should damn well buy it and use it, because there's nothing else that's got his back in this cold harsh world.


Since the topic keeps coming back to making things harder for indies though, as it always does, let's talk about it. Many players have said that it's too easy to hunt as an indie, often citing that once a player knows how the world reacts they have an advantage. Oddly enough, the answer is rarely, "Let's make the world more dangerous as a whole!" Because that would affect everyone, and we just want indies to have it harder. So let's keep throwing hurdles in their way to make the world seem harder for them, while those in clans continue to enjoy the same experience they did before. Because their paycheck is lower and it sucks to be them, right?


Fun Fact: The knowledge and experience that can make the world less dangerous for someone playing an indie doesn't just go away when they're playing a clanned member. Now they just have the knowledge and a few more buddies along with them, which makes the world even less dangerous. To the point staff sometimes have to jump in and balance the odds! Yet no one seems to cry, "The clan hunters are too powerful because they have all this knowledge along with the backing of a trained group alongside them!"


I get the feeling I'll still be saying this ten years from now, but the problem isn't with indies. Mainly due to one reason... Every single issue someone has with an indie is an issue they could potentially have with a clannie as well. We're not playing on different servers, everyone gets that right? Indies have no special powers granted to them in char-gen. They're playing the same game as everyone else, and outside of rare exceptions (like X-D), they're playing it in hardcore mode. The fact clans restrict some of the things one can do is a PURELY IC EFFECT. Staff isn't parked invis at the city gates to stop your character from leaving without permission if you're in a clan. You can choose to follow or ignore those rules as your character would, and reap whatever repercussions come from that. In fact if your character is a shady and self-serving sort, as most Zalanthans are, you're probably doing them an injustice by following those rules in the first place.

So what exactly are you complaining about? Is your clan restricting your character's motivations? Why is he or she even with them. Is there a benefit you're receiving from being with a clan that outweighs the loss of freedom? Then what gives you the right to complain? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'm sorry, that's just life. It's realistic, if anything. The only thing an indie has at their disposal that a clanned character doesn't, are certain freedoms that a clanned character chooses to forgo to gain other benefits. And that freedom comes at a cost that's paid for regularly, believe me. Yet time and time again, players sit with their characters in a clan, enjoying their safe sparring, readily available food and water, safety for their often free gear, resources for their crafting, steady paycheck, elevated social status, and whatever other perk staff and PC leaders might see fit to throw their way like clan-only apartments, and.... They bitch. Man, do they bitch.

Sorry, no, that's not how the world works and it's not how the game works either. You made a choice and are reaping rewards, you've no right to bitch about your indie neighbours rewards too. Especially when the only thing standing between you and having the rewards of both clan life and indie freedom is your decision to play your character in a (hopefully) IC-accurate fashion.

There's an old parable about two neighbours, one of which had a goat and the other didn't. The one that didn't would pray every day to God about it, and finally God appeared and asked, "You've been passionately praying for many years now, how can I reward you? Would you like a goat as well?" And the inevitable response was, "No God, I just don't want my neighbor to have one either." This is how half the arguments against indies sound to me, year in, year out.

That's not to say the clan experience shouldn't be improved, because I firmly believe it can and should be. But because it will improve someone's experience, not because it will diminish someone else's experience. Yes, clans could use some TLC now and then. And they sometimes receive it, lately more so than in past years. And many great suggestions have been made even in this thread that could improve the experience for players in clans. Some are minor, some are major, all stand valid for examination by staff.

Seeing the elite clans re-open would be an amazing and positive experience, especially for those who never had the opportunity to experience them before. It feels like the current staff administration isn't overt to re-considering past policies, so long as it's ensured the effects are positive. We've seen that in their treatment of slave roles among other things.

Right now a lot of attention has been given to the North, and more recently to the Legion. It's been great to see, as it gives me hope the South and other areas of the game might be given the same attention in the future. Right now though there's a situation where the Legion has been made a lot more accessible to players, and offers a wonderful way to honorably retire from service should one choose to opt out down the road. So perhaps the perfect balance to that would be to also give players a reason to stay in as well. Re-opening the Ivory Guard would not only serve as a decent test-subject for the return of elite clan units as a whole, but play nicely off the recent changes in the Legion as well. Something for Nyr and the Northlands team to consider perhaps.

As for gear and other such perks, they're always a nice touch. While we can springboard ideas on the GDB about that all day long though, it's something that's well within the power of PC leaders to push for. So I'd urge those in such positions to take it up with their clan staff and see what might be done about it, especially if it can evolve due to IC events and efforts instead of staff waving their magick wand.

And that's all I have to say for the foreseeable future or at the very least tonight. This discussion has been fruitful. Carry on. And for God's sake, if someone wants to respond to something I wrote above, don't quote the whole damn thing and make everyone's eyes bleed all over again. ;)
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Patuk on July 19, 2014, 07:56:55 PM
You're focusing on the negative a lot there, Ouroboros. Many of the suggestions in this thread have been along the lines of alcohol discounts, improved gear, better ranks, and less restriction in leaving clans. None of these things affect independent players at all.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 19, 2014, 08:10:52 PM
You're focusing on the negative a lot there, Ouroboros. Many of the suggestions in this thread have been along the lines of alcohol discounts, improved gear, better ranks, and less restriction in leaving clans. None of these things affect independent players at all.

It's not so much that there's been a lot of positive suggestions, just that the negative keeps coming up, again, and again, and again...
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 19, 2014, 08:13:06 PM
I can always pass out Hurt Feelings Reports to the needy.  ;D
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 20, 2014, 04:35:20 AM
I think what it is is that IC rewards/superperks/best clothes/tuns of free booze once a month/protection no money can truly buy simply don't translate equally to the OOC conception of these rewards and what they mean for players versus pcs. Therein, the massive to mild cycle of clan bitching. I have nothing useful to say about it because when I felt a clan wasn't delivering what I wanted on a silver platter I simply left instead of trying on the new boots. I imagine other people might, though. Let me ask: what OOC rewards might be given to clannies that would drain enough of the bitching out?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Rahnevyn on July 20, 2014, 03:09:45 PM
We've been making clan-related changes to noble houses in the south as well lately, so it's not just the north that's been getting love. A few months back we raised stipends for nobility in Allanak across the board. We've also already increased pay for Borsail and Fale servants and updated their clan ranks and documentation. (Oash, don't worry, your changes are coming soon -- those dirty gemmed just make things a bit more complicated in your case.)

One goal of that effort was to make sure servants of the nobility have a promotion ladder they can climb if they choose to and are able. A long-serving and devoted aide has the ability to rise above just being an aide to a single noble and can be promoted to a more senior role where they're able to wield some of their House's influence independently by virtue of their own rank, rather than only being an extension of a PC noble as an aide. I wanted to mention this because I saw some comments saying more ability for promotions would be good, so I can happily say at least in this case your wishes are being answered.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: slatefox on July 20, 2014, 03:23:01 PM
I've been waiting a while to pitch in on this topic, but I feel the issue has been mulched over enough without ever bringing up a few key points that I want to share, so here goes --


The idea that coin is meaningless is wrong, and here's why:

I feel that the only people who are going to be saying that money is worthless in this game are older, veteran players who know where all the secrets are at and how to abuse them regularly.  To make matters worse, they likely fail to find an effective plot-driven money-sink, so they spend all their time in-game buying up a ton of useable resources and then complaining that the staff don't run enough RPTs or something.  Those of us who play the game moderately, do not worry ourselves over time-out triggers, aren't zerg-rushing the NPC merchants every time there's a reset, are newbies, play short hours, or strictly rely on clan play are not drowning in money and may find that the economy is either right where it should be OR may actually even pose a challenge.

Playing an indie, without all the twinking and grinding and BS, is hard.  

If people feel there is a problem with there being too many people running around with 10k in coin and max gear, then it's because there is a problem with ABUSE, not necessarily 'indies'.


Getting back to the OP, there are pricing issues with BASIC goods.

Nobody should be able to just waltz out their front door and buy a very effective, well-crafted blade with just a week's worth of pay.  

But what I believe the OP in this thread was discussing is how illogical it is that a clansman can't go blow a bunch of his sid on enough alcohol to get him actually drunk every game-night that he plays, because there is no easy-to-get equivalent to a six-pack of beer.  Too many BASIC goods, like alcohols and non-glamorous foodstuffs, look like they suffer from American-esque inflation, and cost in the double-digits.  Things that don't cost in the double-digits are usually not worth buying except as RP flair.

The overall theme of Armageddon lends to this idea that the general populace is grindingly poor.  Everyone is either subjugated, oppressed, or they're some kind of outlaw.  Everyone works and life is short.  That means that commoners are highly unlikely to have the coin to go in to a bar at the end of the day and pay 15-30 sid for a drink.  They probably don't even make that in a week (in theory), and this is pretty well represented when you look at clan pay.  Where is this game's equivalent to cheap beer, ale, rice, and potatoes?

A mug of basic beer or ale should cost something much closer to 1-3 sid.  A bottle of cheap alcohol should cost closer to 7-9.  'Poor People Food' -- ugly but very filling foods like 'don't-ask-what-it-is stew' and unseasoned roasted giant cockroach, should be in the same cost category.

Currently, though, you're going to find things as simple as an unidentifiable gloop of slop going for 30-40 coins.  

And yes, this is all just an opinion.


Higher class goods are jaw-droppingly cheap.

First thing to come to mind is the stables.  It's fine that mounts cost as much as they do, but they have -NO- upkeep, which makes buying the most ridiculous and largest mounts the most attractive.  If you were an enterprising salt grebber, would you pay for a war beetle or an inix if you had to feed the thing?  No, you wouldn't.  Same reason why back in the day people would rather use an old donkey or a multi-use cow than getting a healthy, trained horse.  Stabling animals should cost something a lot more rational, especially if you're expecting some poor stablemaster to foot the bill for feeding your two-ton garbage disposal for a few weeks.  On the flip side of that, the only small mounts available are absolutely useless since they can't support most people's weight.

While I won't point out specifics in a GDB thread, I've often felt that 'classier' goods, like fine merchant silks, go for way too little.  A fresh-out-the-gate character can afford an entire wardrobe of delicate, jeweled crafts if they're OCD enough about it.  This just seems bizarre when a basic weapon -- crafted out of some modestly common material -- costs just as much if not more.



And lastly...


heh heh, Rahnevyn posted while I was writing this.  I read over what he wrote and have to say I'm very glad and appreciative that work is going into Allanak as well as Tuluk, and you're opening up more opportunities for aids!
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: flurry on July 20, 2014, 03:27:01 PM
The biggest misconception in the game is that wealth matters, likely because it plays such an important role not only in the real world but in most games as well. In Armageddon it really doesn't. A highborn with 100 'sid in his pocket is still a highborn, with the full social, political and financial backing of his Noble family behind them. A GMH employee with 500 'sid in his pocket still wears the colors of a House that can financially crush anyone but another GMH and has all the perks that come with it, as well as knowing exactly when and how much his next paycheck is going to be. An independent commoner with 1,000 'sid in his pocket is a walking, talking target for every pickpocket and burglar, raider, corrupt militia member, or any Templar he crosses paths with. He knows where today's meal is coming from, and that it might be tasty, but doesn't know when next week's meal will come from. And if he can afford decent gear he should damn well buy it and use it, because there's nothing else that's got his back in this cold harsh world.

If wealth doesn't matter, why do some characters go to such lengths to attain it? And if it doesn't matter, why is it controversial to suggest that it should be more challenging to become wealthy?

I don't believe that the indie experience has to be worsened to make clan experience better. But I definitely do think there is an overall negative effect when it's too easy to obtain unreasonable amounts of coins. As much as people say wealth can encourage plots, I've seen the opposite happen, where wealthy characters throw money at problems to make them (and the associated plots) go away. Often wealth has a bizarro effect on recruiting, where indies explain how the quality of life in a clan would be too much of a downgrade. And these are people who had sought me out to get hired, but only if I'd be willing to make numerous exceptions to the rules for them. Playing in GMH, it was hard not to notice that the indie customers often had much deeper pockets than the nobles did. Maybe that's changed in the past few years, but it was unmistakeable at the time.

I want indie roles to be as viable as ever, but I'd like to see it be more difficult for characters to accumulate large amounts of coins.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Kismetic on July 20, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
relevant stuff

(http://www.sharegif.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/tumblr_ml87q0tkrp1re3x32o1_.gif)
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 20, 2014, 05:33:30 PM
Playing in GMH, it was hard not to notice that the indie customers often had much deeper pockets than the nobles did.

QFE

I think part of this may be perception and scale, since nobles are constantly having to throw large gobs of money at plots, where indies don't, but it still seems wrong.  Additionally, when you are playing a leader, the amount of coin you need to offer an indie to make even the simplest task worth their while is ridiculous. Like multiple year's wages for a clanned person.  That does nothing to help the appearance of economic normalcy.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 20, 2014, 05:48:38 PM
Playing in GMH, it was hard not to notice that the indie customers often had much deeper pockets than the nobles did.

QFE

I think part of this may be perception and scale, since nobles are constantly having to throw large gobs of money at plots, where indies don't, but it still seems wrong.  Additionally, when you are playing a leader, the amount of coin you need to offer an indie to make even the simplest task worth their while is ridiculous. Like multiple year's wages for a clanned person.  That does nothing to help the appearance of economic normalcy.

Well, lets consider the cost of food, water, stable fees for the indie to journey out and aquire these goods, as well as the multiple people they have to pay for "protection", the money you have to pay for the rest of your crew, the money for your over-priveleged butt to sit and sip and ale, and have enough stored up for contingencies.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 20, 2014, 05:55:33 PM
I want indie roles to be as viable as ever, but I'd like to see it be more difficult for characters to accumulate large amounts of coins.
Pretty much my thoughts.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 20, 2014, 06:08:39 PM
I'm not really sure I understand what's wrong with indie characters having a lot of coins(not all of them do), other than clanned folks have disproportionately less(not all of them do either).
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 20, 2014, 06:48:31 PM
Quote
I'm not really sure I understand what's wrong with indie characters having a lot of coins(not all of them do), other than clanned folks have disproportionately less(not all of them do either).

I don't either.

Quote
I feel that the only people who are going to be saying that money is worthless in this game are older, veteran players who know where all the secrets are at and how to abuse them regularly.  To make matters worse, they likely fail to find an effective plot-driven money-sink, so they spend all their time in-game buying up a ton of useable resources and then complaining that the staff don't run enough RPTs or something.  Those of us who play the game moderately, do not worry ourselves over time-out triggers, aren't zerg-rushing the NPC merchants every time there's a reset, are newbies, play short hours, or strictly rely on clan play are not drowning in money and may find that the economy is either right where it should be OR may actually even pose a challenge.

I do not think anybody said money is worthless. But Many Vet players have realized that it is not all that important...at least not all the time and not all PCs. I don't know what these secrets might be to abuse so I will leave that one be. Zerg rushing the NPC merchants is newb tactic anyway...especially now that NPC merchants sell stuff over time.  Plot driven money sink? Mind explaining?

As to prices...most if not all of us agree that pricing is rather skewed...Sure, food can be high, water too, Booze though, Meh, it should be lower, at least things like ale, mead...commoners type crap booze...But sadly there is no arm version of Bud lite or keystone...well, there is, but damm, it is priced like hennessy XO
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 20, 2014, 07:33:17 PM
I'm not really sure I understand what's wrong with indie characters having a lot of coins(not all of them do), other than clanned folks have disproportionately less(not all of them do either).

Agreed. My assumption has always been that people who prefer to play in clans want their cake (the cash that indies make but have to spend on food/water/supplies/protection) and eat it (get all of said stuff for free from their clan), too.

Edit to add: Also, If you are working for a clan and your only source of income is your salary, you aren't being very creative... or Zalanthan.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Evilone on July 20, 2014, 08:05:17 PM
Easily keeping so many coins comes back to a problem with the banks I think. With one of my wealthy characters id try to keep a chest of coins... as well as use the bank... that way it presented an opportunity for thieves and such too.. but maybe Amos the indepedant shouldnt be able to store 5k+ in the bank... maybe he has to keep it locked in his apartment or warehouse or something?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: James de Monet on July 20, 2014, 08:17:25 PM
I'm not really sure I understand what's wrong with indie characters having a lot of coins(not all of them do), other than clanned folks have disproportionately less(not all of them do either).

I don't think anyone is saying anything is wrong with it other than that.  Just that the whole wealth scheme of the world is...wonky.

I guess the reason people want to go after indie hunters because of it is simply that indie hunters seem to generally be the furthest outside the documented paradigm in terms of expendable wealth.

I imagine ICly, most people would expect the wealth distribution to look something like this (increasing in personal, expendable wealth from top to bottom):

[The Broke]

[The Poor-Average]

[The Above Average]

[LARGE WEALTH DISPARITY]

[The Wealthy]

But in reality, on the noticeable average, it seems that indie hunters have completely jumped the shark, out of the "poor-average" category of wealth, up two levels to "the wealthy".  Again, this is based on the perception of discretionary income.  It has little to do with how much they have in the bank, or how much total coin they are spending.  Just what they seem to be dropping on their average large purchases.  It is possible that that system of measurement is totally flawed, but it's what people see.


*Some may take issue with my ordering.  And I think we all know "Indie Merchants" can really fall anywhere along that scale, depending on what they sell, where, and to whom.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 20, 2014, 10:17:17 PM
I thought staff said that Templars were going to be given the least, in what I've theorized is like an analogue of how the timekeepers are paid in the movie In Time if anyone's seen it. Probably off, but I'm thinking not too far off. Spoilers for the analogy in white.

Basically, the timekeepers do a templar's job in a society about as poor as our own in some parts but money is actually time people use to survive. To keep timekeepers from being constantly mugged and killed in the more dangerous zones, they are given very little time that must be constantly replenished so they don't die. I was thinking maybe pc templars are considered foot-soldiers in the more powerful world of politics, to be reminded of their place, since while they have ultimate power over most civilians, they are barely-trusted bottom rankers in the pyramid of power, where trust is the single most valuable asset apart from the personal ability to tear other peoples' throats out with your teeth faster than they can do to you.... course I haven't played a templar so I don't know.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: williamson on July 20, 2014, 11:02:50 PM
I've finally read all these posts and I thought I'd make a few comments. Before you can fix a problem, you need to determine exactly what the problem is. I'm going to define the problem as this: "Over the last several few years, clan membership has decreased and independent play has increased. The playerbase and staff wish to change this." Now that we've identified the problem, we need to try to figure out why this is and what's causing it. Compared to last year, I've noticed that one problem is there are simply less players during "primetime" when compared to last year. I frequently noticed player numbers in the 70s last year, this year it's typically around 50. So one factor might be that less people are playing which effects both groups. Adding new players and retaining players that have quit will help.


Overtime, magick has been forced out of nearly all clans. Of the current guilds available for play, 9 of the 16 guilds are magick guilds. The magick system of Armageddon is spectacular and one of the most fun aspects of the game. However, for 56% of all guilds the game offers there is only one clan for them to join. Thus everyone that wants to play with and use this fantastic system will likely be playing as an independent. Compound this with the negative stigma and prejudice of playing a magicker in Allanak and it makes it even more likely that these players will be playing independents. Next, these roles require karma which means that we are forcing players that have proven themselves capable leaders and have developed staff trust out of clans and into playing independents. Over time, these rogue magickers find each other and form various groups. These groups composed of veteran players with proven leadership abilities attract followers and drive interesting plots which compound the effects of attracting more people to play independents. Additionally, there is a chance that Amos the super-independent hunter that everyone thinks is a twinked out independent ranger might actually be one of these 9 guilds with a carefully selcted subguild, and he/she is fooling everyone. This also adds to the misconception of the successful independent. Thus, a side effect of forcing magick out of clans has resulted in more independent players.


Another problem is that most of the open clans are not adequately filled. I counted 22 open clans. There simply aren't enough players to adequately fill all these clans. This is why every new human gets six job offers within one week of play. It's even worse if you're a half-giant. I think we need less open clans. The clans left open need to have larger playerbases. One reason I feel the Byn is currently successful is because it has a large playerbase. At one point, there were three active Sergeants in the Byn who played heavily. The result was it attracted a lot of players. There was always a leader to "take you out" and frequent contracts that needed to be filled. I theorize that if you took all the players in the Byn and dropped them into House Borsail that House Borsail would become "the cool clan." If there are about 50 players during "primetime," even if everyone played in a clan that leaves only 2-3 players per clan. When you consider the number of independents, there actually many clans that often have no one or only one player online at a time. This results is difficultly with developing plots, difficulty recruiting, and increased boredom. These factors lead to players leaving clans or storing. Independents with more freedom are free to follow the playerbase to where the players are. Since independents can simply move instead of store, they retain their wealth and skill without having to start from scratch.


Someone mentioned the idea of a hunter's guild. Personally, I feel this is a bad idea because it's likely to draw players out of existing clans such as the Byn and split them into small group with less and less players online together. Additionally, you can currently hire the Byn to hunt for you. To a certain degree, they can already function as a hunter's guild. I see little value in duplicate clans.


Someone mentioned that clans need to offer better gear and elite groups. However, I find that elite groups offer little more than a title. Once people are in these groups, they'll lose their allure and people will play elsewhere. If each clan has an elite group, then there aren't enough players to adequately fill all the roles and the group would stagnate. As far as gear, I've noticed that "special gear" is usually as valuable as a fancy coat of paint. It looks nice and fancy. However, if you can't kill a carru with a regular sword, you're unlikely to suddenly kill one because you just bought a fancy sword from House Salarr. That's just my opinion, maybe I'm just buying the wrong sword.

Someone mentioned that we need to eliminate banks and that would force wealthy and successful independents into clans. I disagree with this idea. OOCly the bank functions as an important way to remove wealth from the game. When a character dies, the wealth vanishes into House Nenyuk instead of into the hands of the killer of the PC. Additionally, there is no bank in Red Storm. Despite this, most characters in Red Storm are independents. A previous character of mine was a wealthy independent based in Red Storm, he accumulated an enormous fortune. He didn't use the bank and avoided Allanak, Tuluk, and eventually even Luir's. You can make a lot of money by simply selling things to PCs that they want, especially if it's difficult to obtain. If indys couldn't use banks, there would simply develop an alternative currency. It might be gems, mount tickets, magickal things, or written vouchers. Some people would just keep their money in their apartments. Unfortunately, when these people died, their wealth would remain in game and inflation would develop. As long as there is supply and demand, there will always be ways to make coins for the clever and hard working.


Here are my suggestions about changes that I think would attract more people into clans:

1) Close some of the dead open clans while at the same time remove player limits on the clans that remain open. Only have two open noble houses in each city. The noble houses that are open should have a minimum of two active nobles and at least one trusted non-noble leader. Lots of active leaders means not waiting around for the boss to log into the game. More leaders means more plots and more stipdends to spend on minions. The GMHs should have four to six leaders for the same reasons.

2) I think the GMHs should function as one group instead of a northern and southern group. One of the perks of being in a GMH is that you should be able to freely travel between the cities without the prejudice and persecution that independents face. You should be able to sit in the Gaj with your northern accent and easily seen Tuluki caste tattoos and be left alone as long as you're wearing your GMH colors. Merchants in the GMHs should be allowed to trade their wares to their House NPC merchants and keep all the profits just like independents can. They should be allowed to haul their goods between the cities in caravans or wagons and keep all their profits just like independents can. If this happened, GMH employees would quickly become the wealthiest characters just like they should be.

3) I feel that clans also need some additional perks for their long term members. For example, GMH employees of appropriate rank could give large donations (such as 25k) to their clan's bank account. In return, these employees would earn a point of influence. These characters could then spend their influence points to purchase things only available to important members of their House. The options for spending these influence points would be specific to each clan. For example, Kadians might be able to purchase a rank of virtual training for new skills such as cavilish, clothworking, jewelrymaking, stonecrafting, or leather working. Other options might be purchasing an extra mastercraft for the month or learning cavilish literacy. The point being that you could spend your influence to obtain things that you normally couldn't outside the clan. Noble Houses, tribes, military clans and would need different criteria for earning influence and likewise offer different clan specific rewards. I think things like this would do a good job of attracting and retaining clanned PCs.

Once upon a time House Tor asked a beautiful damsel "Will you lifeswear to me?" and the beautiful damsel said "NO!" and the beautiful damsel lived happily ever after and rode silt skimmers and mud sexed handsome Benjari tribals and hunted and raced erdlu sleds and went to naked gypsy parties and seduced men half her age and smoked Melem Tuek, Thodeliv and Zharal and drank Sejah from the keg and never waited for a missing leader and went to parties in both city states and kept an apartment full of souvenirs and all her family and friends thought she was fucking cool as drov and she had tons of coins. The End.

I think there is a certain measure of truth to Bushranger's humorous story. Clans need to offer better attractions to seduce the players away from the wonders independence. That's just some of my thoughts on the matter...


Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: racurtne on July 20, 2014, 11:06:53 PM
Templars are expected to supplement their income creatively. Bribes, merchant tokens, 'taxes', or anything else they can think up becomes their pay.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: FantasyWriter on July 20, 2014, 11:23:32 PM
Nice post, Williamson.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Harmless on July 21, 2014, 01:53:35 AM
maybe clan pay just doesn't scale appropriately. I think recruit wages (i.e., 0), starting wages (100-400 a month or so is what I see on average for GMH), and the first promotion wages (200-500 or so a month) are fine, but maybe after that the pay should take a huge jump to truly reflect the increase in trust. 1000. 2000 a month. Something so large it clearly will stimulate plots and be a true cash reward.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 21, 2014, 02:01:56 AM
I think in regards to open and closed clans, the game is already running a bare minimum.

These days Noble houses on each side only hire a very small amount of people, an aide or two at the most. They take on a couple partisans up in the north if available. Not to mention noble houses are supposed to be one of the main engines that creates plots in the city and world wide. If anything what they need is not so much sponsored people, but I would say some more open sponsored goals and plots that staff and noble players are willing to see through. Regardless it shouldn't hurt to have a number of nobles running around, hopefully trying to make cool stuff happen.

The militia are staples clan on either side of the map, who would the templars order around if not them. I can't see any of these closing, they are clans that have some pretty defined purposes especially in the south where crime would run rampant without any militia pcs following up on reports (yes i would stab you in the middle street and no crim-code wouldn't help you as much as you think).

Byn is more active in the south but technically they also hire in the north and take jobs there too. They could be closed down but I see that costing the game more players, a lot of people really enjoy playing in the byn. They do their thing and people love them.

The three active GMHs are kurac, salarr and kadius. These three clans provide much needed goods to players.   I already suggested merging kadius and salarr since its a similar experience, might as well have all the players under the same roof. There is no real need to discuss all that again though, everything that needs to be said has been said i think.  Its not really fair to just have a single merchant in the entire clan just to fill people's orders either. Kurac is also the gateway to the tablelands and desert tribes there, or at least should be. They have a distinct role to play at luirs and to be honest I feel you can't look at them without looking at all the clans in the pah as well. It is probably something that can be looked at though, in terms of better integrating them all with the rest of the world but its probably a bigger project then just closing them and probably another thread all by itself.   I suppose with all the GMH's you can make a store selling absolutely all they have to offer and then close one of them down but I don't know just closing any of the remaining clan down, even temporarily is a good solution.

For what its worth I think the player numbers will increase again in time as they always do with time.  The moment another hrpt and major code change happens is announced they skyrocket. However I still think we need to take this opportunity to look at the game and ask ourselves, "How can we make this game enjoyable for with the least amount of players" and do it in a way that when the population does go up, the fun will just increase in proportion. Again i feel just closing the clans down isn't the solution, but instead making sure they are promoting as much interaction between characters and other clans as possible instead of isolating players in remote areas or just keeping people from interacting with others. That they are not restricting players to the point they need a leader to be able to do anything other then the same old routine. That players have time to go out and do their own thing even within reason even if they are in a clan.  As it has been said the legion is a good example of this in terms of schedule and other changes, but that is already being looked at, so that's great. Other then that making people want to join clans by offering them benefits, perks and titles to achieve, and a lot of other good ideas mention in this thread is a good way to go. I want to see clans being more fun to play in, rather then making the independent experience more shit.

Though on a side note, anything that makes coins more scarce and thus more valuable for everyone is something I want to see in general. Its not just a snub against independents.  Again I already think its too hard to bride people as it. I've already said this but I'm okay with people affording drinks and the basic stuff from stores, but you want the fancy shit salarr, kurac or kadius sells you should probably be taking bribes, killing people for it or something.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Harmless on July 21, 2014, 02:19:36 AM
The idea of permanently closing clans scares me too. "temporary closing" is a slippery slope to permanently closing. Some degree of this is fine but unless something new and exciting comes along to replace it isn't worth it in my opinion. People miss these clans over time and eventually it just feels like "the game ain't what it used to be."

The same applies to closed down races. Is it really "fun" for there to be so much content that this game used to have that has been gone for so many years? I don't know that the same old content should be recycled or that new content should replace it, but content is content, and the game lacks it now in some areas that have had stagnation lately. New frontiers and changes to the landscape of PC faces could go a long way to stimulate intrigue.

If a new/old race was (re)opened up I bet you'd see a bump.

A good recent example is the levies. Huge boost and boon to Tuluk in my opinion. Why? It's a new clan, new content. Big positive feedback from that. Taking away X and Y and Z from the same city? Look at all the backlash it got on the GDB.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 21, 2014, 03:44:52 AM
I don't know if levies are a clan in the traditional sense. They were introduced in such a way that it adds content without taking players away from the other clans. You can join whatever clan you want and still be in the levies.

I don't think adding new races is a good idea....just right now. Since at best adding something a couple gith or mantis will just give people something to hunt/kill for a while. Its nice when it happens but its really more of an event/plot sort of thing.  I don't think you need an entire clan of gith for example. There is also the issue with elves. This was discussed iin another thread so I'm not going to  into detail about it. Kudos to those people trying to play an city elf right now but I personally still think they need to be changed to bring them in line with dwarves, half-elves and half-giants thus allowing them to join more clans. Again more people in the clans we currently have, the better.


Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Evilone on July 21, 2014, 05:35:56 AM
Umm... that's not actually true. Don't think you can join the levies and be in any clan you want (normal recruiting restrictions aside). I don't believe it was in the FAQ either, so I found out the hard way.

I don't think adding any new playable races will help, that would only further dilute things the way they are? Unless it's something that becomes common place acceptable, and doesn't need its own special living place etc. but that seems unlikely. Oh wait.. lets have a panda race! That will work :D Jks. City elves need loving I think.

 I think the clans need more purpose to their role and what they can actually do... I'm not talking drama RP stuff, but actual work. E.g Tenneshi - There main focuse is water and building right? Water is just loaded for most clans and people never really need to deal with Tenneshi to actually get it, and building is only capable by the admins currently, so its rare, not impossible, but rare. Nobles now don't have qynar authority? so what to do besides just try and snoop the other nobles, and hurt his reputation and business? I know there's so much more to do, but that only works then too if the PC's are around to influence. If water in Tuluk had to be bought by the GMH and noble houses I think that could create some more interest for the noble house, plus stir many other possibilities. Obviously there would always have to be an NPC seller, just like Kurac has a NPC spice seller in Tuluk, but, if you dealt with a Tenneshi supplier directly, you could save a lot of the cost (also Vivaduans everywhere rejoice haha). Same sorta thing could apply to Allanak.

Winrothol - Well slaves don't really exist anymore, so... I've never heard of Winrothol actually selling slaves apart from a fighting Mul once to a Templar, and that never actually went ahead. Does that just leave the typically RP drama for them? The Cavaliers use to be nice, but they only just sorta did what the Legion should just be doing anyway? But they don't matter too much now anyway.

Dasari - To me they seem the most usable in the game to other PC's, knowing all about poisons, healing, plants and such, but over the last couple RL years it looks from the outside to be hard to get the clan running strong. Maybe they need something more solid that will draw PC's to them.. potions of 'strength', potions of 'quickness', potions of 'toughness'... something to compete with spice effects? There's a good rivalry that could spring up... but not be something that is just loaded by an NPC, created by actual plants that have to be foraged, and special only recipes to Dasari?

Kassigarh - I've not much experience with them and what direction they are taking. Loan sharks? It has potential... I don't see much RP to do with accounting, and taxing. Unless theres a new system set up to start it.

Bardic Circle - Seems to work okay, but I don't know if it's just because I haven't been in Tuluk as much lately, but there's not many getting around? Is it too hard to join? Just gets boring cause there is not enough work? That might come back to a low middle-upperclass population who don't hire them? Personally I think the step the admins were taking in increasing GMH family and having more than 1 noble family member in each clan is a great thing. I think at all times there should be no less than 3 GMH family PC's for each clan. Those people really are the drive in the game, and no less than 2 nobles for each family at all times.

Sun Legion - I think the Legion are only as good as the Templar PCs at the time. As for crime watch, during my period it was basically just reporting, and even during the very rare chance to actually witness or get involved with a crime, it's meant to be the Templars job. If your lucky, you get to be included then, in whatever the outcome is. But, that could have just been different leadership at the time as well. You are a soldier, so you expect combat and fighting, but what menaces do you really encounter? The biggest threat around Tuluk is the Kryl, but the general thing is don't mess with the Kryl... so it only just leaves the occasional random creature that will attack you. There's no Gith to go and slaughter to 'help keep the Gol and surrounding areas safe', or nests of spiders to clear out every now and then which seems common place down the south for clans like the ARM and the Byn. When the admins come up with a RPT it's great, but I'm talking more day to day excitement, fun, hardship, would be more enjoyable to be in the clan. There's lots of tribes in and around the Gol? Surely there's conflict to sort out between them, and stop them fighting each other, or when tribes break and revolt against Tuluk to handle? It shouldn't be an easy trip in the park, I wouldn't want easy slaughter for loots, but the sense of feeling your actually helping to defend the Gol, and not just hope for a rare occasion that you might catch a southern patrol, which the North would probably loose against anyway due to a shorter number of PC's...

I've been wondering if only having 2 GMH would be better, to combine people together so there's more interaction, but I don't think that's the way to go... as each GMH currently seems to have it's own really good niche.

Akai Sjir - I think they need to go and be replaced by a clan that takes ALL races, and is... outlawed and hunted by the city? They aren't professional artists, but scum, or really smart people looking for an easy buck who aren't afraid of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal". It could certainly be that opposing force the Sun Legion need, but such a clan needs a sizeable space to be able to explore and hide... *Underground/sewers/warrens made bigger/whatever*.

Byn - From what I've seen they are doing really great atm, kudos to them. What I would love to see though is another mercenary clan for the north that isn't the Byn. The Byn doesn't work in the North much, that has seemed apparent over the past couple years, but maybe something else would work, and I'd like to see the conflict that could happen between the Byn and this other mercenary clan drinking together or fighting for prices etc. Travelling between Luirs and the North is much different to travelling from Luirs to the South... maybe that needs to change... this other clan that is outlawed and hunted by the city could be that solution, for those game enough? Sure it could be done now, but without the real support of admins with base, npc's, clan board to organise things, it'd be much harder, and more easily squashed. There'd be more need of mercs in the North... What are some other reasons mercs would need to be utilised more in the North? Why are they used more in the South? Gith contracts? Spider Contracts? That's fun stuff really.

I can only speak from personal experience with what I've seen, but I've been mostly a Tuluk player for the past couple years, but I've gotten around since returning after a long gap away from the game. This sorta thing will most likely be discussed at the new player/staff meeting, so I think we need to figure out what people like and don't like with the clans, so the imms can walk away with hopefully something helpful. The more people the better!
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Cutthroat on July 21, 2014, 06:09:45 AM
A lot of the stuff in this thread with regards to clan pay, the attraction and "purpose" of clans will slowly become a non-issue as staff update clan documentation and sponsored leaders help introduce it to the population, presumably with an eye on discussions like these.

IMO, closing clans shouldn't even be a consideration. Closing clans historically doesn't help with consolidation, but seems to just limit player options, and players who don't like any of the options will prefer not joining a clan. On the contrary, opening more clans up and making them palatable to the players who prefer indies but really want to try a clan again should be the goal. Being mindful of things like clan schedules in the process. Since we can't magically create new players, only slowly attract them by voting and so on, the goal should be to make the clanned:indie ratio more in favor of the clanned by adjusting clans in a way that accommodates at least some of the indie-preferred players.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Lizzie on July 21, 2014, 08:22:48 AM
Some of the concerns Williamson brings up make sense, but are based on flawed logic. Cutthroat's most recent post is important to read. Limiting clan availability doesn't condense more people into clans. It creates more independents, because players hate being limited. It does exactly the opposite of what you are trying to do.

Some things addressing Williamson:

Flawed logic:
9 of 16 guilds are magick guilds, equaling 56% of all guilds only having one clan to join.

Nilaz and Sorcerers were never allowed to join clans (with a couple of "secret" exceptions that no longer exist).  So now it's only 7 of the 16 guilds that might otherwise be *eligible* to join clans, if you opened up that option again.

The roles require karma and therefore only veterans and players who have lots of trust with staff will play them: Not even close to being true. ANY player past their first character in Armageddon can special app a ruk or vivadu mage, and it doesn't take all that much effort to earn enough karma to not have to special app it at all. I notice when I'm playing a mage, that most mages don't last very long at all. Especially ruk and vivadu mages. No idea of the actual numbers, or if I'm only seeing a limited perspective here. But in my observation, the average vivaduan is either stored or killed within their first real-life month of chargen. Why? Because they are NOT proven leaders, they have NOT proven that they're able to handle a role that is designed to be primarily independent. They get bored and do stupid things, or they roleplay their characters into a store or flounder position. In my observation, the lifespan of a lower-karma mage is about the same as the lifespan of a Byn recruit with a bad Sergeant.

50 players average during prime time and 22 open clans = too many clans, too few positions each: Many of those clans are not intended to be filled by a lot of people. Most of the noble clans should only have a sponsored leader role, plus 1 or 2 aides. Also, those 50 players average during prime time, are not the same 50 that log in every day during prime time. On Saturdays and Sundays, 5 of those 50 might be people who only play on Saturdays and Sundays, replacing the 5 people who never play on weekends but are always there on Tuesdays (for example). So you have a lot more than 50 players, making up that "average." There are plenty of people to fill out those clans. The distribution tends to vary depending on the quality of the leader AND the quality of the leader's minions. If I have a new PC, and I'm looking for a clan, and I see a clan with a bunch of characters that I don't think I'd want to RP with on a regular basis, I won't want to join that clan. I'd rather play an independent, or join a clan where I'm the only minion in it. If you eliminate clans, you'll limit my options. I'll start to feel "stuck" with only two options: join a clan that has lots of people that I'd be required to interact with, some of whom I would want to avoid RPing with, or be independent and pick and choose who I want to RP with. I'll take the independent role. I'd rather even play an iso role than be stuck with characters that my character wouldn't get along with on a regular basis.

Too many cooks spoil the stew. A clan with multiple leaders equals a very few minions all taking conflicting orders most of the time. That makes for OOC resentment and frustration, not fun. A clan with one or two leaders makes for interesting dynamics, the potential for frustration but MORE potential for fun.

GMHs functioning as one group: it doesn't matter if they're one or two groups, if you're trying to "solve" the "problem" of prejudice and persecution of characters from one or another city. If your group is in the north, and has southern hunters, your group WILL experience prejudice and persecution. If they're in the south, and have northern hunters, you'll experience the same.  Those PCs have to be *from* somewhere, and the family member PCs can't be from anywhere other than one of the two cities (or Luir's if you're with Kurac). The moment those PCs step out of those cities, they become outsiders to their current environment, and will likely be treated as such, and have to work harder to prove their merit in the foreign locale. Yes, they're Salarri. But that particular agent is a Northern Salarri, coming to Allanak and expecting everyone to treat him how he's treated in Tuluk. It just ain't gonna happen. And it shouldn't happen. He's a foreigner. They'll go to him for ordering stuff, and make a cursory attempt at being civil and polite to him, but the moment that Salarri starts expecting the same prestige and respect that he gets from Lord Tenneshi in Tuluk, is the moment he loses his street cred in Nak. Vice versa with a Nakki-born, uninked Kadian showing up in Tuluk and expecting red-carpet treatment from the locals.

Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 21, 2014, 08:43:25 AM
Economy -
A few people above (I apologize for not doing the scroll up and citing you by name) mentioned things like the disparity of pricing and inflation. I think they make a really good point. I think basic things should cost less. Luxurious things should cost more. (Yes this does nothing to address who holds the sid in game. But we're already talking about that.)

The problem with this is that the entire burden of fixing this falls on the staff. It's a huge undertaking and probably not an exciting one.

Food indigenous to an area, ale, low end wine, glow crystals, basic tools, low end clothing and weapons should be cheap. (Some clothes and weapons already conform.) High end weaponry, great armor, lace, silk, imported edible treats, candy, glass, great wine - those prices could be lifted and make them feel more like luxuries.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 21, 2014, 10:13:05 AM
I will be editing this as I go to  address all the good posts.

First, As lizzie and others touched on. Closing clans does not increase clan play, it decreases it. I will use desert elves as an example. Used to be there was  8 tribes, 1-3 of them virtual but open for backround and play, and 3 coded...later the virtuals were not allowed for play and one coded tribe was closed for play but the coded tribes increased to 4. During the time that the 4 were open, there was actually a good number of delves, I estimate at any given time each tribe had at least 4 players...not a huge number per tribe of course...but fun because you had plenty of interaction. Today you have 2 open tribes and I doubt if they have an average number of 4 each. Now...you say yes, but with those tribes closed people get to play other clans. Well, that simply is not the case...as to the delf players, many have simply stopped playing delves, either because they do not like either of the open tribes or they simply hate being limited to 2 tribes. Several of those people have stopped playing altogether as a result...but that is more a side note.

Alright, now let us touch on clan numbers....I do not feel like going and counting the open clans so I will assume that 22 is a good number. Now, out of that 22,  at least 7 are tribes and you cannot recruit into a tribe so....we have 15...out of those 15, at least 7 are noble and other then oash, have a REAL hard cap on employ, being essentially sponsored PC and an Aide....I do not really count those myself since all in total that means they only suck up 14 players.. So, 7 open clans...Let me see here...maybe I am missing a noble house or something because I count only 5 remaining clans.....Byn, 3 gmh and the guild. Ah, I found the 2 missing clans, militia and legion..All of those are very specific in what type of PC plays them....So, having only those, ANYBODY making a PC outside that means they will be unclanned. And from player perspective, there are many PC concepts that simply do not fit into those clans. Or the players don't want to play them. Oh, and as to 6 job offers in a week...Dude, that is like getting none at all compared to say 2002. From 1998 -2004, every PC I and most anybody made got 6 job offers inside the first 10 minutes of play.

As I stated before, back when we had many open clans and a lower pbase...clan enrollement % was higher.

Now, Elite groups.
Quote
Someone mentioned that clans need to offer better gear and elite groups. However, I find that elite groups offer little more than a title. Once people are in these groups, they'll lose their allure and people will play elsewhere

I have to believe you were not playing back when the clan elite groups were open. Believe me, people did not lose interest and move on...In fact, many of the longest lived, most known dynamic PCs were in those groups...and they got a LOT more then simply title.

Now, the idea of merging GMH...this is the same as closing clans, and would result in lower numbers in clan. If you had 2 GMH then you would have the numbers of 2 GMH...that simple.  One reason being as Lizzie mentioned. Maybe I don't like the PCs in kurac right now...and kadius...Oh, I will join salarr....What, no salarr...I will stay indy.


edit
jaxa pah
Code: [Select]
Status: Closed
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 21, 2014, 10:33:16 AM
Jaxa Pah.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Patuk on July 21, 2014, 11:14:54 AM
Celf tribes are Arm's half-life 3.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 21, 2014, 12:27:30 PM
A note on elite units:

People seem to be saying they want elite units.  Like, something at the top end to aspire towards that is an extra thing or whatever in a clan, showing you've done your part.

So for the most part, all of the elite units had problems which led to their closure IC.  Some had more, some had less, but all had at least one.  I'm posting this to point those problems out to those that have rose-colored glasses.

If a group has an elite level or an elite tier of some sort, it must be balanced.


That's why we can't "open up the elite sections and let players just do it like they used to do it."  They were closed for a reason.  I know that keeps getting overlooked in favor of the chanting of "elite groups rock", but you can't ignore the bad.  The good news on this is that this may not always be the case.  Extensive clan revamps means that in some fashion...once documentation is addressed and solidified, and assuming it makes sense for the clan to have it from a staff perspective...those things will return.  They won't be like they were before, but elite status (in general) seems to make sense (it certainly passes staff muster in laying out documentation).

In fact, there is at least one area in which players can do something they couldn't do before as far as vertical advancement.  I hate to continually bring up Tuluk, but it's my most recent area of work, so that's where I am familiar with specific change.  

You can be a Masterbard PC now.

Until the bardic revamp, there was no chance of hitting higher than Seeker, occasionally Bard if your staff was especially nice (and they'd have to be, seeing as how there weren't docs for the clan) or you were especially long-lived and prolific.  To make that work, though, the overwhelming social power that a Bard (or Masterbard) could achieve could completely amplify and overshadow any particular PC's efforts.  In other words, if you had a Masterbard that was working directly for a noble, well, that'd mean that noble was pretty damn important, no?  We had to fix that and create a shift--as the social influence increased, so did the reliance and association with patrons decrease.

The same sort of thing can be applied to clans, in some cases, to provide vertical advancement at some cost.  The same sort of ideas that went into making that a possibility also power any thought towards clans and hierarchies and perks and the like.  Being in some sort of elite group or rank is a perk.



On permanently closing clans:  unless it is wiped out IC it is never permanently closed.  Not sure what this thing is all about.  The clans are open that staff want open.  If a clan is closed for play it is temporary, almost always.  I'm not sure of a time in which we've said a clan is permanently closed.  



On desert elf tribes:  most of them weren't fleshed out that much, and some had documentation that was more than a little crazy and un-Zalanthan.  Perhaps one day there will be other options here or a different approach taken, but given that desert elves require one karma and have been misplayed even at that, having a gate for them in some fashion is at least likely to continue in the future.  Whether that changes isn't something I'm aware of now.



On city elf tribes:  When we have one that works, you'll be the first to know.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 21, 2014, 12:38:39 PM
Quote
If a group has an elite level or an elite tier of some sort, it must be balanced.

ēyou only get to this through IC work, no exceptions
ēyou can't just join up (due to availability or luck), you have to go through the same sort of training everyone else does (essentially, no bifurcated entry process, where if you go to one person you get into X group but if you go to Y person you get into Y lesser group)
ēthe elite group must be part of the rank structure of the clan in a solid, specific way
ēthe elite group can have perks, but cannot exist on its own, separate from the rest of the clan entirely

That's why we can't "open up the elite sections and let players just do it like they used to do it."  They were closed for a reason.


Actually Nyr...I doubt anybody would argue against your points.

Firstly, pretty much everything has problems...sadly, the tendency has been to close rather then fix.

Now, as to your points...my bet is that anybody posting on this thread would be in full agreement with you...hell, I personally think getting into an elite group in a clan should be even harder then it was when they were open. I think any elite group should have a solid and low cap...which I have stated before. Part of this is simply the laws of supply and demand, but part is to stop said groups from overtaking/overpowering said clans, which has happened in the past (something that was broken).


So anyway yes, I personally agree with all your above points to having them back in game.

Quote
On desert elf tribes:  most of them weren't fleshed out that much, and some had documentation that was more than a little crazy and un-Zalanthan.  Perhaps one day there will be other options here or a different approach taken, but given that desert elves require one karma and have been misplayed even at that, having a gate for them in some fashion is at least likely to continue in the future.  Whether that changes isn't something I'm aware of now.

Oddly, I am in agreement there too....though I have to go back to what I posted above in that it has been the tendency to close rather then fix. And everything is, at one point or another "misplayed" I consider that "reason" rather a copout...as if it was a valid reason then the only thing that would be playable would be indy human warriors...and even they could be misplayed.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 21, 2014, 12:47:41 PM
Once upon a time House Tor asked a beautiful damsel "Will you lifeswear to me?" and the beautiful damsel said "NO!" and the beautiful damsel lived happily ever after and rode silt skimmers and mud sexed handsome Benjari tribals and hunted and raced erdlu sleds and went to naked gypsy parties and seduced men half her age and smoked Melem Tuek, Thodeliv and Zharal and drank Sejah from the keg and never waited for a missing leader and went to parties in both city states and kept an apartment full of souvenirs and all her family and friends thought she was fucking cool as drov and she had tons of coins. The End.

I think there is a certain measure of truth to Bushranger's humorous story. Clans need to offer better attractions to seduce the players away from the wonders independence. That's just some of my thoughts on the matter...


Thanks for including this post in this thread.  Well said.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 21, 2014, 12:48:19 PM
Firstly, pretty much everything has problems...sadly, the tendency has been to close rather then fix.

Barring one or two cases, the problem was endemic.  It could have been fixed close to implementation by adjustments, but after years go by and the problems remain manifest, it is left to staff to determine whether it is in the cards to fix it now (meaning a full clan revamp/reconstruction of documentation) or selectively nix the part that is creating the heartburn until it the former fix can be applied.  As you say, the tendency is towards closing rather than fixing, but that's just a nature of the amount of time we have.  We do set aside time for projects and the like, but with limited resources...when a problem presents itself, the first response tends to be towards mitigating the problem temporarily and continuing with current efforts until that problem can be addressed with more time and effort.

"Temporarily" is relative, of course.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 21, 2014, 12:52:55 PM
Quote
(meaning a full clan revamp/reconstruction of documentation)

Something that the player community is always willing to help on....an untapped resource most the time if you ask me.


Of course, hearing that many of these things might still be under continued staff review actually makes me happy.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 21, 2014, 01:08:42 PM
Given some of the "ideas" in this thread, I think we're a resource best left untapped.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Rahnevyn on July 21, 2014, 01:12:23 PM
Be nice. :P
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barsook on July 21, 2014, 01:12:54 PM
Time is always an issue in every community.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on July 21, 2014, 01:14:11 PM
Given some of the "ideas" in this thread, I think we're a resource best left untapped.

I think many of the ideas in this thread have great potential.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barsook on July 21, 2014, 01:15:38 PM
Given some of the "ideas" in this thread, I think we're a resource best left untapped.

I think many of the ideas in this thread have great potential.

+1

We just need lab rats to test on.  ;)
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 21, 2014, 01:20:57 PM
LOL...Ideas are not exactly the point.

Staff can have the ideas, just tap some of the good writers in the player base to do the grunt work on the docs...here Is what we want...make it happen!
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 21, 2014, 01:44:51 PM
Absolutely in agreement with X here. In the past, there were a number of calls for material for 2.0. Being that 2.0 was a fairly maligned project, and that you still were able to reap copious amounts of material from the PB, I think it's fair to say that we are very eager to donate time and imagination to helping flesh out many aspects of the world.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Patuk on July 21, 2014, 01:45:25 PM
Not having been around at the right time, I'm curious to know what the problem with elite units used to be.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 21, 2014, 01:47:50 PM
It is a little discouraging wondering if your clan docs will ever get their turn. I thought my clan was possibly getting docs looked at late 2012 and nothing yet. Of course I really hate trying to sift through various clan forum posts but some people seem alright with it.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 21, 2014, 01:51:17 PM
Absolutely in agreement with X here. In the past, there were a number of calls for material for 2.0. Being that 2.0 was a fairly maligned project, and that you still were able to reap copious amounts of material from the PB, I think it's fair to say that we are very eager to donate time and imagination to helping flesh out many aspects of the world.

Agreed.

Not to mention that (no offense, but it's true) some of us players have been playing this game for longer - and thus have more extensive memories and knowledge of past documentation - than current staff.

For example, the documentation and standards for the Tuluki templarate have gone through an insane amount of permutations (and occasional retcons, evidently) since I played a Lirathan back in the early 2000's. Knowing how things were and knowing how things are today are two different things, but can definitely help when trying to write up documentation that makes sense and fits in with the lineage and history of the gameworld.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 21, 2014, 01:58:36 PM
Actually, Nyr stated what some of the problems were.

Elite units...Now it will seem I am picking on Kurac here, but I am not, they were simply one of the last to have such.

Anyway...First off, in the beginning, it was something you had to earn, and it was tough to get in...there were few outriders and they were part of the clan.

Towards the end, there were people recruited directly to the outriders, it got to a point where almost all the clan was outriders and really, they did whatever they wanted, basically separate from the clan. Also, the clan rankings were muddled when it came to outriders verses any other clan member.


Other clans had the same problems or different ones as well. Of course I feel almost, if not all these problems were rooted in docs that were not totally clear on these subjects. Elite units are something I think should have documentation that, if not set in stone...be damm close too it.

Leave the grey areas to the lesser units...This is why I already stated that any elite unit or unit member should held to higher standards then normal.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that should a PC clan leader think your PC could become part of an elite unit that it should then become a sponsored role...IE, PC leader needs run it past staff and get approved and the Player of the prospective elite be given the docs by staff and such rules as be needed by a sponsored role.

(edit, disclaimer) I use outriders as example though such problems may or may not have happened in that clan, but  it was simpler to simply group everything together for example.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 21, 2014, 02:00:09 PM
Actually, Nyr stated what some of the problems were.

Elite units...Now it will seem I am picking on Kurac here, but I am not, they were simply one of the last to have such.

Anyway...First off, in the beginning, it was something you had to earn, and it was tough to get in...there were few outriders and they were part of the clan.

Towards the end, there were people recruited directly to the outriders, it got to a point where almost all the clan was outriders and really, they did whatever they wanted, basically separate from the clan. Also, the clan rankings were muddled when it came to outriders verses any other clan member.


Other clans had the same problems or different ones as well. Of course I feel almost, if not all these problems were rooted in docs that were not totally clear on these subjects. Elite units are something I think should have documentation that, if not set in stone...be damm close too it.

Leave the grey areas to the lesser units...This is why I already stated that any elite unit or unit member should held to higher standards then normal.


Yeah, if outriders were recruited directly into, that's a problem. I remember Shatuka trying insanely hard to get into the Outriders, and trying to train up the person who would be her partner, only to have them keep dying on her, and so she was still wearing a Sergeant's patch by the day she died. And I liked that. It gave me something to continue striving for, instead of going "well gee, wearing a patch now, end of the road"!
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Patuk on July 21, 2014, 02:02:15 PM
I.. See, and I can see why it would be a problem if, say, you had 5 Ivory Guard pc's and only 2 normal soldiers, or if a Corporal let into the Ivory Guard would decide to skip all duties, only listen to his templars, and completely dissociate himself from their clan, but surely these things can be fixed by quotas and better documented hierarchies? Or are there more issues, ones I'm not aware of.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: X-D on July 21, 2014, 02:08:39 PM
Well, Patuk...some of what I said might not have been an outrider issue, but was surely issue at some point in some elite...still, what I posted essentially covers all the major problems...

Some clans  had elite units but since they are little known I will not mention them. As to the well known ones, IE, Kadius, Salarr, Kurac and Legion..

I do not see any reason why Ivory guard could not come back basically unchanged, I thought the docs on such quite clear cut. Outriders would need some cleaning and expanding, Kadius  and salarr need complete rework.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 21, 2014, 02:23:53 PM
Elite should have prestige, it should have some tangible reward - it should not take you out of the workings of clan life. If less interaction results, it's broken.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 21, 2014, 02:35:50 PM
Yep.  Surely these things can be fixed by x and y. Basically, just x, then y, where everything after the word "just" is actually quite a bit more work and brainstorming than you might think.

Here's the problem.  It requires more than people willing to write (players and staff) or people willing and authorized to write it (staff).  I assume you aren't just saying that the bottleneck we have here is splattering some words down on a piece of internet paper and calling it done.  The actual work of writing the documentation isn't that big of a deal.  The decisions that go into the rough draft, the places to make the hard calls...that's a big deal, and it's tough, and that is where most of the work is involved.  Sometimes an idea might sit there for a few days or weeks before getting another hack at it because it needs to be mulled over.  It's better to have an idea that had a lot more thought in it than a quick fix that just touches on the problem itself and none of the things linking to it.

The Ivory Guard was never an actual part of the clan, either.  Just a thing you called someone, and they wore stuff.   It wasn't part of the coded clan structure--it was more like a lateral promotion position (nothing wrong with that, intrinsically) and the documentation for that subsection is also quite dated given recent changes.  Luckily, given the recent changes in the clan and the city, it's actually not that difficult to add that in and improve it by doing so if we were ever to do that...which was sort of the point of the changes there anyway.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Fujikoma on July 21, 2014, 02:57:03 PM
I see, yeah, statement misworded, misinterpreted could cause a good deal of confusion and conflict. Sounds difficult, glad I get to just play the damn game as opposed to having to pour over such things. Huh, hadn't even thought about that until now, suppose I should have.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 21, 2014, 05:10:31 PM
It would still be nice if, when sweeping changes are made to the game and documentation, players could genuinely contribute to the discussion.

I'm not even remotely the most veteran of vets that we've got here, and there are still issues I've noticed with retcons and doc changes, especially that are either made silently (confusing players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucking over their PCs) or that are flat-out surgical removals of long-standing icons of the gameworld (hi, Firestorm).

While staff is updating these clan documentations, I hope that there is conversation going on between the players involved and the staff involved, and maybe even conversation with players who have been heavily involved in that clan in the past. Because they have actual perspective on what it's like to play in the clan. Instead of deciding "this is how it should be" and relentlessly forcing the documentation in that direction, maybe we could stand to use a more organic approach that genuinely involves players as well as staff. You (general you) have the benefit of birds-eye view, but what you often lack is the perspective of what it's like down in the sandbox. Sometimes the things that staff might think is fun to play ends up being very limiting, confusing, and/or unfun in actual reality, despite players giving it their best shot. And vice versa.

So no, polling players for documentation updates might not make the workload any lighter, but I can pretty much guarantee that it'd make things more cohesive and result in a few less ruffled feathers and bad feelings. Players invest a lot into this game as well, I would like to think that our perspective might be genuinely considered, and our willingness to contribute be capitalized upon.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 21, 2014, 06:45:44 PM
In every case so far, we've involved players (you remember the shadow artist stuff maybe?), usually in reviewing the rough draft part of the documentation.  More often than not, this has resulted in better documentation as questions were answered and things we hadn't considered were brought up. Sometimes, the feedback offered has differed drastically from what we were planning to do; in those cases it is unfortunate, but the opportunity was there to present an opinion at least.

The only noteworthy exception was with the Legion, when most everyone was new to it at the time, though even then the templar PCs at the time had already had their say in the templar part of the same documentation.

What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Barzalene on July 21, 2014, 06:50:46 PM
I wonder if we could have more discussion before changes hit, rather than after staff does a lot of work. You mention that sometimes the feedback is drastically different than your plan, but would you consider including us in the planning process?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: valeria on July 21, 2014, 06:56:01 PM
Maybe this is really weird but... I like focus groups.  I get invited to lawyer focus groups all the time (and am rarely selected), but as a process for finding loopholes, answering previous unasked questions, and brainstorming, focus groups are pretty awesome.  Within limits of course.  If there was ever a city elf focus group I'd be on that like white on rice.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Dresan on July 21, 2014, 06:59:09 PM
That is really odd about the levies. I was just asking about them recently in game too and I did get the impression they were something you could join much like shadow artists (are/used to be?). I mean you could be one and still join other clans. I guess you would really need to buy your way out if you wanted to join a clan later on if what evilone is saying is true.  ???


Hrm. Oh well, maybe I'll go review the threads about tuluk changes and levies more in depth, if its true though I guess the levies still work for people who want to always remain independent/partisans.  
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 21, 2014, 07:10:42 PM
In every case so far, we've involved players (you remember the shadow artist stuff maybe?), usually in reviewing the rough draft part of the documentation.  More often than not, this has resulted in better documentation as questions were answered and things we hadn't considered were brought up. Sometimes, the feedback offered has differed drastically from what we were planning to do; in those cases it is unfortunate, but the opportunity was there to present an opinion at least.

The only noteworthy exception was with the Legion, when most everyone was new to it at the time, though even then the templar PCs at the time had already had their say in the templar part of the same documentation.

What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

The way elementals evidently respond to player characters. Tuluki documentation. I'd go into more detail, but obviously I'm tongue-tied on the GDB. I've been considering the idea of writing in a request so that I can go into more detail, so perhaps I should, but honestly, I think we've already discussed most of this, and you've said your piece, and I've said mine, and we agree in some areas and I respectfully disagree in others, but haven't felt it was worth arguing over.

I'm not claiming that player input (especially not mine) is going to be perfect - but, Barzalene put it pretty well a few posts prior to this one.

That said, this is the tip of the iceberg of a pretty big debate and I don't want to end up derailing an otherwise focused discussion.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 21, 2014, 07:16:38 PM
I think the current stage at which players are involved is reasonable.  Rough draft is (probably?) a lot more basic than what you are thinking.  It means (at minimum):


It might be more in-depth than that and there might be a lot of really specified stuff.  Some clans require a lot more feedback.  Some don't.  For instance, there's a thread for templarate changes on the clan board for that clan.  It's 11 pages long.

We aren't going to put up a proposal to other staff that essentially says "work with players to develop documentation towards this end."  The proposal itself would need to either incorporate player ideas previously proposed, or seek out player input on a specific part of a proposal that might well have staff flummoxed.  It's rare, but it happens, and it happened as recently as a few weeks ago.  And that's the rough draft part of it, so...that works out pretty well.



That is really odd about the levies. I was just asking about them recently in game too and I did get the impression they were something you could join much like shadow artists (are/used to be?). I mean you could be one and still join other clans. I guess you would really need to buy your way out if you wanted to join a clan later on if what evilone is saying is true.  ???

I'm not sure most of it is true or accurate.  There's a post I made that specifically addressed each clan in the role call, there has been recent activity in all of those cases, and recent changes across the board that weren't accounted for by the post made.  It's fair to say that some clans won't want to get involved directly in the levies, which was the intended action; clans do have influence. 
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Nyr on July 21, 2014, 07:29:11 PM
What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

The way elementals evidently respond to player characters.

Yep, we got tired of them being spammed up for awesome accents and treated like quest vending machines.

Quote
Tuluki documentation.

If it's what we've talked about before (it seems like it is) then that wasn't a result of changes to documentation done silently.  The docs were always that way, they always said that, they weren't changed.  They might be in the future, but...we went over that already, no?  I just don't see this as an example of a retcon or a doc change that was pursued silently.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on July 21, 2014, 07:39:52 PM
What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

The way elementals evidently respond to player characters.

Yep, we got tired of them being spammed up for awesome accents and treated like quest vending machines.

Quote
Tuluki documentation.

If it's what we've talked about before (it seems like it is) then that wasn't a result of changes to documentation done silently.  The docs were always that way, they always said that, they weren't changed.  They might be in the future, but...we went over that already, no?  I just don't see this as an example of a retcon or a doc change that was pursued silently.

I've seen a few things crop up over time in my clans where Staff and the players seem to have different view points on a matter of character (rank responsibilities, life-swearing, etc). However, these appear more like instances where players were left to their own devices when filling a grey area in a clan's character, and their decisions propagated themselves over generations of characters and become "fact." Then Staff come and say no, that's not how this clan works.

So it seems more like an issue where Staff have documents on the clan that the people playing the clan's characters do not have access to.

((Cripes these page rolls))
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Delirium on July 21, 2014, 07:42:30 PM
What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

The way elementals evidently respond to player characters.

Yep, we got tired of them being spammed up for awesome accents and treated like quest vending machines.

Then... why not set out some documentation on how they should be approached and used (with a staff and player version) rather than make sweeping changes behind the scenes? Why not at the very least let some sort of IC explanation leak out, or hint at it in future interactions with those elementals? If, in the past, you have dealt heavily with an elemental with one character, and then on a separate character, you have two entirely different encounters (one, evidently pre-change) with the same type of elemental, it is jarring and confusing and throws you for a loop. It's not a whole lot of fun.

Quote
Quote
Tuluki documentation.

If it's what we've talked about before (it seems like it is) then that wasn't a result of changes to documentation done silently.  The docs were always that way, they always said that, they weren't changed.  They might be in the future, but...we went over that already, no?  I just don't see this as an example of a retcon or a doc change that was pursued silently.

Heh, no, that's not entirely what I'm talking about (though I do have my own quibbles with that scenario as well, but we went over that). I do seem to recall that it was actually possible for what you assumed she was planning on to work in the reverse, in old documentation, but obviously I don't have access to that to prove anything. My issue with that was being OOCly forbidden from pursuing a plotline, rather than letting it resolve in-game. But I'm over that. It wasn't a big deal.

What I am referring to is the fact that when these documentation changes went on in Tuluk, nothing the players who were involved did could actually affect the outcome at all. They could write in the little in-between details, but none of those mattered. They were essentially meaningless. So they were being carried along on a script, and there was nothing they could do to affect the outcome of that story.

It isn't about winning or losing - it's about feeling like you are a part of a living, breathing world, that actually evolves based on what you do -- and there were more than a couple PCs involved who should absolutely have been able to affect the outcomes, but were not, because "that's not how it's going to end up".

That's what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 21, 2014, 07:50:12 PM
That is really odd about the levies. I was just asking about them recently in game too and I did get the impression they were something you could join much like shadow artists (are/used to be?). I mean you could be one and still join other clans. I guess you would really need to buy your way out if you wanted to join a clan later on if what evilone is saying is true.  ???


Hrm. Oh well, maybe I'll go review the threads about tuluk changes and levies more in depth, if its true though I guess the levies still work for people who want to always remain independent/partisans.  

You can be a member of the levies and a member of a clan. This is the point of the levy tax.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 22, 2014, 01:08:00 AM
That is really odd about the levies. I was just asking about them recently in game too and I did get the impression they were something you could join much like shadow artists (are/used to be?). I mean you could be one and still join other clans. I guess you would really need to buy your way out if you wanted to join a clan later on if what evilone is saying is true.  ???


Hrm. Oh well, maybe I'll go review the threads about tuluk changes and levies more in depth, if its true though I guess the levies still work for people who want to always remain independent/partisans.  

You can be a member of the levies and a member of a clan. This is the point of the levy tax.
Maybe if your clan works Luir's and northwards almost exclusively. If you have to go into Allanak from time to time, why bother with levi members?
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: HavokBlue on July 22, 2014, 01:14:28 AM
I don't imagine it's an optimal scenario for merchant houses who send people south, but if I were an enterprising Templar I probably wouldn't care and I'd be slapping extra taxes on offending agents and merchants to make up for my diminished income.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: a french mans shirt on July 22, 2014, 01:16:38 AM
The levy. Is Awesome.

Do Kadian, Salaar, those sort of clan leaders you think resent the levy sometimes if it'll keep their minions in the north? I feel like, OOC maybe, but ICly this is something to put on the resume and it supercedes the OOC enough to blanket it out. Obviously I'm not playing a sponsored family member right now... and I know there's frustration, I don't know how much.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Patuk on July 22, 2014, 02:06:04 AM
After recent-ish events, I think it's safe to assume that leaders are cautious about sending personnel north and south too much.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 22, 2014, 04:20:01 AM
Maybe, but the weapons and armors and silks and spice and wooden dressers and wagons must flow. The Templars of both cities understand that, and it's not honestly good for the cities to kill off too many of the merchantile persons they have to deal with to get anything neat they might need. That's not to say that there's not going to be those moments where that shit hops out the door, but a Northron Kadian in Allanak isn't the same as a northron independent in Allanak.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Asanadas on July 22, 2014, 04:30:14 AM
I'm here to talk about drink prices in bars. Think this might be on topic.  ::)

From my experience, I feel that the prices I've seen for pissale and other brews o' spirits in bars is way too high, on account of a couple of things. The first reason is, due to the way drinking works, drinking beer will make you less thirsty, which means you don't have to shell out for water. The second reason is, when you are buying the drink, you're also buying the cup it comes in (technically).

If anyone's ever gotten #halfelfwasted before, they'd soon realize that alcohol is not a hydrating liquid. Indeed, alcohol robs water from the body while filtering through your system. Although a bladder/urine system being implemented would be too overreaching, this could be clipped by either near-zero-ing the amount of thirst that ale relieves, or causing thirst gain to increase dramatically as the drink metabolizes through your character, growing more noticeable depending on how drunk you were. I don't have access to code, but I'm pretty sure that alcohol of all sorts offers less thirst-quenching than water, but still enough to justify high booze prices. Taking care of that would knock down that barrier.

The other problem are the cups you get your drinks in. These containers have intrinsic value (though very little) that is reflected in the high prices of spirits the Known over. Though that value is borderline worthless to the average player, it's still there. If you've ever gone to a bar, you know that they don't let you "buy" the glass that your draft comes in, though this may be different in the world of Armageddon where taverns are too rough-n-tumble to keep track of who owns what cup. I can think of two solutions to this. Either we are allowed to "sell" back the cup/mug/bottle/githskull for a fraction of the drink cost (which would also lead to bars being pristine and completely clear of all cups!), or we can implement water-seller code in bars to allow for drafts of drinks, after a fashion. Here's my example.

Code: [Select]
The tavern around you swelters with activity.
A bored bartender is standing here.
A tavern wench is here, watching over a collection of barrels.

>list bartender
[insert scroll of drink / cup options, along with "an empty mug" at around 3 'sid or so]
[ideally these prices would be lower by comparison to current prices anyways]

>buy #1
You purchase an empty mug, for 3 obsidian coins.

>list wench
The wench coos at you,
"I'll letcha have pissale, brawler's brew, or the good stuff."

>offer mug wench pissale
The wench coos at you,
"I can fill this up with that for 1 'sid."

etc.
Not only would this remove the value of the container from the drink prices in general, it would allow for much, much more drunken shenanigans and roleplay for players; they'd be able to portray an alcoholic without having to give up ever owning anything decent. The masterwork creation of custom drinking tankards would shoot through the roof. Alcohol should flow freely, to those that can stomach it. I feel it'd be both an improvement by IC and OOC measures.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: senseofeven on July 22, 2014, 05:04:31 AM
I can dig that refill idea. Vennant goes through so many mugs that break on a daily basis cause people brawl nearly everyday in there. Bring your own cup, pay only for the liquid within.

Very soon we'd see people carrying casks/barrels/cisterns to refill from Vennant's brews.  :P
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 22, 2014, 05:28:05 AM
I'm good with that idea - in fact, I really like it. And I don't have a problem with folks getting a barrel of swill for that long ass hunt.

I really like this idea.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Cutthroat on July 22, 2014, 06:38:05 AM
Refilling is a nice idea, and since it just uses the water buying code it should be easy to implement too.

With respect to other things, it's probably easier to give clanned people more money than it is to reduce the prices of every strangely overpriced item or service. (It also has the added benefit of facilitating more relationships between members of different clans as well as between clanned and indie people).
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Zoan on July 22, 2014, 07:52:00 AM
Staff implement alcohol not hydrating any more.

And that was the day in which one of the largest elf tribes in the Known all died a week later.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: valeria on July 22, 2014, 08:37:56 AM
Hasn't the price of alcohol already been reduced?  I seem to remember tankards of whatever costing more in the past than they currently do.

I do love the refill idea, though I'm not sure whether it's possible to have a liquid merchant sell more than one type of liquid.  I'd hate to see the available variety of cheap ale/spirits decrease.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Is Friday on July 22, 2014, 08:57:52 AM
Maybe, but the weapons and armors and silks and spice and wooden dressers and wagons must flow. The Templars of both cities understand that, and it's not honestly good for the cities to kill off too many of the merchantile persons they have to deal with to get anything neat they might need. That's not to say that there's not going to be those moments where that shit hops out the door, but a Northron Kadian in Allanak isn't the same as a northron independent in Allanak.
>login templar
>kill merchant
>kill 2.merchant
>psi 3.merchant Why aren't my tregil-embroidered pants ready yet? I've been waiting AGES. You better turn out better than the last merchant.
Title: Re: The Clans and Economy Thread
Post by: Asanadas on July 23, 2014, 05:26:25 PM
From just surface experience with water-seller code, it seems to me to be modular enough to allow for  multiple types of liquid to be sold at different price ranges.

If it's not, then a progbit and 24 code monkey hours should be able to fix it to do so.  :P