Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => World Discussion => Topic started by: Nyr on May 09, 2014, 04:23:54 PM

Title: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 09, 2014, 04:23:54 PM
Discussion about this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47416.0.html) goes here.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: MeTekillot on May 09, 2014, 04:24:38 PM
what post
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 09, 2014, 04:26:42 PM
what post

dat post
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: MeTekillot on May 09, 2014, 04:28:06 PM
ok!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: valeria on May 09, 2014, 04:33:15 PM
Overall, I think this change is a huge step in the right direction.  Tuluk has always seemed like it is filled with vast swathes of empty space, and it definitely has too many taverns.  I have always loved Tuluk, but the walking time has always bugged me.

A couple of questions:

Is the Dasari herbalist going to be moved within the new city limits?  I sincerely hope so.  That shop is extremely useful (cures, perfumes), and it always bugged me that it was out in the middle of nowheresville.  It also seriously dampened my out of town characters when it was put behind tattoo checkers, because it limited access to perfume items.

I notice that in the list of taverns, the tea house is missing.  I hope that is staying?  I suppose it could be missing because it isn't really a tavern, but it is certainly a meeting place that has a flavor not met by the current taverns listed.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 09, 2014, 04:35:07 PM
Is the Dasari herbalist going to be moved within the new city limits?  I sincerely hope so.  That shop is extremely useful (cures, perfumes), and it always bugged me that it was out in the middle of nowheresville.  It also seriously dampened my out of town characters when it was put behind tattoo checkers, because it limited access to perfume items.

That's a good change to make that will likely occur.

Quote
I notice that in the list of taverns, the tea house is missing.  I hope that is staying?  I suppose it could be missing because it isn't really a tavern, but it is certainly a meeting place that has a flavor not met by the current taverns listed.

After long deliberation, the Lucky Ghaati has been zoned a tea house and not a tavern, to the dismay of the corporate interests hoping to hone in on that territory.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: valeria on May 09, 2014, 04:38:53 PM
Thanks for the clarification!  It doesn't quite answer my question (which was maybe not that clear)  Will the Ghaati be in the new Tuluk, or not?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 09, 2014, 04:42:21 PM
Fuck yes, this is a great idea.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 09, 2014, 04:43:45 PM
Thanks for the clarification!  It doesn't quite answer my question (which was maybe not that clear)  Will the Ghaati be in the new Tuluk, or not?

Oh, sorry.  Tea house will be in the remapped area.  And quite a bit closer.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 04:44:19 PM
I like it.

The Tooth always seemed a bit too "high class" in my opinion.

I'm glad that is getting knocked down and Tuluk will actually have a "rough" tavern for once.

I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: KankWhisperer on May 09, 2014, 04:47:23 PM
Firestorm?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: valeria on May 09, 2014, 04:49:16 PM
... I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

I would disagree for two reasons.  First, there is an area like that in Allanak.  It is pretty much dead, and therefore isn't fun for even nobles to visit.  Unless they're inviting another noble in, I suppose.  Since the purpose of the consolidation is throwing people together more, this change would seem to go against that purpose.  Second, segregated taverns feels more Allanaki than Tuluki.  It is more common in Tuluk to see Chosen kicking back with the commoners (which does not necessarily mean acting like the commoners, or being friends with the commoners).  While Chosen clearly have better blood, they don't feel the need to rub the commons' noses in it as much as they might in Allanak.  Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my perceptions of playing in Tuluk and reading the docs.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 09, 2014, 04:54:07 PM
Firestorm?

There will be a mid-tier tavern that fits the niche that Firestorm fits, but not where Firestorm actually is.  Details will be forthcoming in-game.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 09, 2014, 05:09:22 PM
This is both shocking, and awesome.

Alright, Nyr. Maybe the North really is worth playing in one day. I'm liking a lot of the new stuff you gab about recently. The reduction of travel time is such a good thing for getting players closer to each other, and making the area seem more like a city and less like a collection of villages in close proximity to each other.

Good job, staff, on this one. Good job.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Kismetic on May 09, 2014, 05:10:14 PM
Alas, poor Kiiren;  I knew him, Horatio.  *cough*  Nice changes, the walk times to the far side of Tuluk were always annoying.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 09, 2014, 05:17:24 PM
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. I hate that you're tossing away the pub and replacing it. There are reasons  that historically validate it's existence. I remember with my second pc, a bynner, being introduced to Flame. I think if you weigh one merchant house's contribution to to the city vs the others they have more right to a tavern.  I could cry, seriously.
 
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 09, 2014, 05:18:39 PM
The rest very nice. New pub in commons - complete travesty.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 09, 2014, 05:20:12 PM
Where do you people live? I want to come to your homes and try persuasion and failing that violence.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: palomar on May 09, 2014, 05:20:14 PM
Very interesting changes, and I like the shrinking part of it. I will miss the non-virtual Old Quarter if only because its direct historical importance. Standing on the Dragon's Pillar looking out across the Crater and the ruins... Knowing OOCly that so much has happened there since the first incarnation of the city is very cool.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 09, 2014, 05:20:54 PM
Hmmm. I think Barz has a point. You could always say that the Firestorm moved to the new location. It is a staple of Tuluk, though, and would fit right into that niche the new place would fill. I'm gonna hop in behind Barz on that.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: JustAnotherGuy on May 09, 2014, 05:21:11 PM
Really hope Firestorm is kept, because that place has history behind it and is it the typical bar my characters would play out of.

Otherwise everything is cool.  I  like the sound of it, just sad about Firestorm.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 09, 2014, 05:22:25 PM
I'd probably even keep the old Quarter, and just lock it behind a gate so that it can be used in the future. As someone said, it has historical value.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Cutthroat on May 09, 2014, 05:24:17 PM
This is kind of scary, having known and loved Tuluk as it is, extra rooms and all, but I can see the benefits to changing the layout around and I'm hopeful that problems will be fixed and everything will turn out nicely in the end.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 05:27:51 PM
... I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

I would disagree for two reasons.  First, there is an area like that in Allanak.  It is pretty much dead, and therefore isn't fun for even nobles to visit.  Unless they're inviting another noble in, I suppose.  Since the purpose of the consolidation is throwing people together more, this change would seem to go against that purpose.  Second, segregated taverns feels more Allanaki than Tuluki.  It is more common in Tuluk to see Chosen kicking back with the commoners (which does not necessarily mean acting like the commoners, or being friends with the commoners).  While Chosen clearly have better blood, they don't feel the need to rub the commons' noses in it as much as they might in Allanak.  Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my perceptions of playing in Tuluk and reading the docs.

I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

I would rather see the middle and low-class taverns become the default gathering places of Tuluk.

Besides, I think Tuluk is being revamped in general to be a bit more "harsh", I don't mind the concept of them being a little less, "We are a big happy family.", and a little more, "Get out of fancy tavern with your common trash filth."
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Thunkkin on May 09, 2014, 05:29:34 PM
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. I hate that you're tossing away the pub and replacing it. There are reasons  that historically validate it's existence. I remember with my second pc, a bynner, being introduced to Flame. I think if you weigh one merchant house's contribution to to the city vs the others they have more right to a tavern.  I could cry, seriously.
 

I'll always fondly remember Taur barfing to death in front of me in the private attic of the Firestorm. Many good times in that tavern. And yes - lots of work by one particular merchant house and cooperation with one particular noble house (at least when I was around up there).

Question: Is this something that one particular clan can react to ICly at all? I can imagine the shit hitting the silky fan over the loss of a tavern, particularly if another merchant clan will retain their association with their tavern. But it's been four years. Perhaps I'm mis-remembering the details of the degree that that tavern is associated with a clan?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: palomar on May 09, 2014, 05:30:00 PM
... I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

I would disagree for two reasons.  First, there is an area like that in Allanak.  It is pretty much dead, and therefore isn't fun for even nobles to visit.  Unless they're inviting another noble in, I suppose.  Since the purpose of the consolidation is throwing people together more, this change would seem to go against that purpose.  Second, segregated taverns feels more Allanaki than Tuluki.  It is more common in Tuluk to see Chosen kicking back with the commoners (which does not necessarily mean acting like the commoners, or being friends with the commoners).  While Chosen clearly have better blood, they don't feel the need to rub the commons' noses in it as much as they might in Allanak.  Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my perceptions of playing in Tuluk and reading the docs.

I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

Perhaps it could have a room where all citizens have access, and then Chosen/Faithful-only rooms. That would allow for partisans and other affiliates who aren't codedly clanned to seek out their patrons/employers.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 09, 2014, 05:30:04 PM
Also not in keeping with the flavor of the nobles. They're more accessible than their southern counterparts. Locking them up makes them less accessible.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 05:31:32 PM
I would rather see the middle and low-class taverns become the default gathering places of Tuluk.

Besides, I think Tuluk is being revamped in general to be a bit more "harsh". I don't mind the concept of them being a little less, "We are a big happy family.", and a little more, "Get out of my fancy tavern with your common trash filth."
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 09, 2014, 05:32:46 PM
If it's not possible to rethink this Firestorm thing, let me know. Because I'm holding out hope that it's not to late to fix this. Because really, you guys read the docs right? Yeah. Please reconsider?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 09, 2014, 05:33:07 PM
... I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

I would disagree for two reasons.  First, there is an area like that in Allanak.  It is pretty much dead, and therefore isn't fun for even nobles to visit.  Unless they're inviting another noble in, I suppose.  Since the purpose of the consolidation is throwing people together more, this change would seem to go against that purpose.  Second, segregated taverns feels more Allanaki than Tuluki.  It is more common in Tuluk to see Chosen kicking back with the commoners (which does not necessarily mean acting like the commoners, or being friends with the commoners).  While Chosen clearly have better blood, they don't feel the need to rub the commons' noses in it as much as they might in Allanak.  Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my perceptions of playing in Tuluk and reading the docs.

I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

I would rather see the middle and low-class taverns become the default gathering places of Tuluk.

Besides, I think Tuluk is being revamped in general to be a bit more "harsh", I don't mind the concept of them being a little less, "We are a big happy family.", and a little more, "Get out of fancy tavern with your common trash filth."

There also needs to be a place for people who want to be employed by the Nobility and Templarate to meet them, or wait to meet them.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 05:34:25 PM
... I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

I would disagree for two reasons.  First, there is an area like that in Allanak.  It is pretty much dead, and therefore isn't fun for even nobles to visit.  Unless they're inviting another noble in, I suppose.  Since the purpose of the consolidation is throwing people together more, this change would seem to go against that purpose.  Second, segregated taverns feels more Allanaki than Tuluki.  It is more common in Tuluk to see Chosen kicking back with the commoners (which does not necessarily mean acting like the commoners, or being friends with the commoners).  While Chosen clearly have better blood, they don't feel the need to rub the commons' noses in it as much as they might in Allanak.  Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my perceptions of playing in Tuluk and reading the docs.

I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

I would rather see the middle and low-class taverns become the default gathering places of Tuluk.

Besides, I think Tuluk is being revamped in general to be a bit more "harsh", I don't mind the concept of them being a little less, "We are a big happy family.", and a little more, "Get out of fancy tavern with your common trash filth."

There also needs to be a place for people who want to be employed by the Nobility and Templarate to meet them, or wait to meet them.

That can be the middle-class tavern.

The idea is if the nobility and the templarate WANT to be around the common filth they have that option, but they aren't FORCED to be around that common filth if they want to go to a tavern.

The real gain is just ensuring the high class and exclusive Sanctuary doesn't just default to the most frequented tavern again, because really, almost every commoner in that place shouldn't be in there.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Cutthroat on May 09, 2014, 05:34:59 PM
Quote from: Desertman
One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

How does having one upper-class tavern in Tuluk make Tuluk seem soft, while having one upper-class tavern in Allanak doesn't?
(Especially given that there will be increased prominence for the low- and mid-class taverns.)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: Desertman
One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

How does having one upper-class tavern in Tuluk make Tuluk seem soft, while having one upper-class tavern in Allanak doesn't?
(Especially given that there will be increased prominence for the low- and mid-class taverns.)

Because MOST commoners frequent the low-class tavern in Allanak. MOST commoners in Allanak roleplay being the sorts of people who would frequent such a low-class place. They get plenty of interaction and aren't expected to roleplay being anything but a commoner to do it.

I usually see MOST commoners frequent the extremely high-class tavern in Tuluk.

Most of them roleplay accordingly to visit the high class tavern, so in turn, you have a bunch of people spending a lot of their time in a place that forces them to act extremely high class and proper, thus you end up with a predominantly "higher-class" roleplay base for the city.

If you want to interact with people you go to the most populated areas. The most populated area happens to be the most expensive and fancy place in town. You are expected to act a certain way while there.

Thus, if you want to interact with people in Tuluk you better be ready to act the way most of them act while hanging out in the most highly populated place in the city.

Sippiest of the tea sippers unite, basically.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: valeria on May 09, 2014, 05:39:44 PM
I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

I don't think that your idea or points entirely lack merit.  I agree that some people go into the Sanctuary who maybe don't belong in there.  And the echo about the waitress cleaning up blood drives me absolutely insane, because it doesn't mesh with the environment when you read the room description, but that's probably for a different topic.

However, I do disagree with the underlined statement.  While I think that the this point may have been true in the past, I don't think that it's currently entirely accurate.  The Sanctuary currently has limited access (since other recent changes to Tuluk).  It may not be limited to only Chosen and Templars, but access is limited.  And it seemed in my semi-recent experience playing there that people have branched more into the other taverns because of the limited access, so that they can interact with people who are currently not allowed into the Sanctuary.  This has driven people who wouldn't fit in at the Sanctuary out into other taverns as well, since they're more likely to find interaction outside of it.

But again, I'm only going on anecdote here.  My perspective might be skewed just because it's limited to only my experience.  Edit to add: anyone playing there now might have a more updated perspective, but I have had a couple characters in Tuluk since the changes, and noticed a difference.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 05:42:06 PM
You may be completely right.

I haven't played in Tuluk in a few RL months, so the most recent change may have been more than enough.

Some folks in Tuluk would need to chime in.

I was just going off of past data.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 09, 2014, 05:42:50 PM
I agree. I wonder how accurate / up to date Desertman's opinions are, because i've actually seen the Tooth and Firestorm be the more popular 'water holes' in Tuluk.

People usually aren't hanging out in the Sanctuary for no reason, or for very long, while I see people as barflies more at the Tooth and Firestorm.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 05:44:35 PM
I agree. I wonder how accurate / up to date Desertman's opinions are, because i've actually seen the Tooth and Firestorm be the more popular 'water holes' in Tuluk.

People usually aren't hanging out in the Sanctuary for no reason, or for very long, while I see people as barflies more at the Tooth and Firestorm.

Fair enough, I just know for the last 10 RL years before the most recent change, when you went to Tuluk you looked in the Sanc to see who all was around, and you sometimes strolled past The Tooth of Firestorms to see if anyone happened to even be in there at all.

The most recent change may have "fixed" that.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Kismetic on May 09, 2014, 05:44:41 PM
Valeria is correct, the cutting off of the Sanctuary to outsiders has led to a lot more crowds in the other bars, heavily favoring the bar that was kept.  I expect the middle class bar to become the new most popular, and I don't see a single good reason to change the Sanctuary from what it is now.  It appears it won't even be the most accessible from the main gate, which was my only past concern about it.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: LauraMars on May 09, 2014, 05:45:14 PM
Awesome, my next PC is playing in Tuluk for sure.  TULUKI PICKPOCKET.  I WANT IT.  COME PK ME NOW, GAME.

The only thing that confuses me is the decision to get rid of the Firestorm and replace it with a "middle class tavern with a stage" Doesn't the Firestorm fit the "middle class tavern with a stage (outside)" bill already?  Why go to the trouble of writing a whole new one?  Why not just move the Firestorm?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: valeria on May 09, 2014, 05:46:02 PM
Also, I'd note that the change that made it so that the Sanctuary is not the default spawning tavern has probably contributed a lot to this.  When I was a newbie, I was really hesitant to move away from the Gaj because I wasn't sure how to get back.  This also may have been true of the Sanctuary in the past.

One of the things that makes this consolidation change really welcome to me, is because it was very tedious to search for interaction in Tuluk before because of the walking distances.  With the taverns nearer (about the same distance of the Gaj and Red's), it will be a LOT easier to find interaction if you want to find it.  Just the thought of walking to the Ghaati from the Tooth on the 'old' map was intimidating.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Blur on May 09, 2014, 05:46:08 PM
As someone who has often played in Tuluk I do like this change a lot.

I just have one suggestion though. Please remove all the NPC soldiers from the warrens. They would have needed to take the soldiers from somewhere with the war, and units wandering outside the walls . Really though I would like to see the warrens be devoid of npc solider presence to re-enforce the idea its more of a bad area. Not as bad as the rinth since the crime-code would stay the same in the day (of course being wanted shouldn't mean an entire unit suddenly comes down on your head any time soon in that particular area) but at night it should clearly be a more dangerous place to wander. Not to mention it would give unlicensed criminal elements just a bit more space to thrive in .
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 05:47:09 PM
I wish they would move the stables a bit closer to the middle-class tavern.

I always felt that the stables being so close to the Sanc had a lot to do with why it got so highly populated.

You come into town, you look in the tavern, see everyone there, you might as well join them, it is two squares from the stables anyways. Easy.

Would we build the most fancy tavern in town right next to the smelly stables anyways?

Kind of makes more sense to move it.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 09, 2014, 05:49:13 PM
The Firestorm reaction was part of the reason we put up a post more than a week in advance of the mapping and the tavern change.  That way if you are really annoyed by something that isn't clearly defined you can go ahead and get it out of your system.

One additional point to note is that not all of Tuluk is pictured in the map provided.  For instance, you don't see any of the Barrens or all of that stuff on the east side.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Kismetic on May 09, 2014, 05:51:16 PM
I just have one suggestion though. Please remove all the NPC soldiers from the warrens. They would have needed to take the soldiers from somewhere with the war, and units wandering outside the walls . Really though I would like to see the warrens be devoid of npc solider presence to re-enforce the idea its more of a bad area. Not as bad as the rinth since the crime-code would stay the same in the day (of course being wanted shouldn't mean an entire unit suddenly comes down on your head any time soon in that particular area) but at night it should clearly be a more dangerous place to wander. Not to mention it would give unlicensed criminal elements just a bit more space to thrive in .

Puh-LEASE do this.  :D
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 09, 2014, 05:52:48 PM
I just have one suggestion though. Please remove all the NPC soldiers from the warrens. They would have needed to take the soldiers from somewhere with the war, and units wandering outside the walls . Really though I would like to see the warrens be devoid of npc solider presence to re-enforce the idea its more of a bad area. Not as bad as the rinth since the crime-code would stay the same in the day (of course being wanted shouldn't mean an entire unit suddenly comes down on your head any time soon in that particular area) but at night it should clearly be a more dangerous place to wander. Not to mention it would give unlicensed criminal elements just a bit more space to thrive in .


This is a different project.  Not saying it is without merit, just that it is big enough on its own to be something to address with more than a remapping effort/scripting.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 09, 2014, 05:53:10 PM
I just have one suggestion though. Please remove all the NPC soldiers from the warrens. They would have needed to take the soldiers from somewhere with the war, and units wandering outside the walls . Really though I would like to see the warrens be devoid of npc solider presence to re-enforce the idea its more of a bad area. Not as bad as the rinth since the crime-code would stay the same in the day (of course being wanted shouldn't mean an entire unit suddenly comes down on your head any time soon in that particular area) but at night it should clearly be a more dangerous place to wander. Not to mention it would give unlicensed criminal elements just a bit more space to thrive in .

Puh-LEASE do this.  :D

We have code in place that lets NPC's walk on routes and schedules.

Why not have the soldiers dutifully patrolling this area in the daytime, but at night, the smart and sensible soldiers get out of the bad part of town and find a nicer and safer part of town to patrol?

Kind of makes IC sense too. It's like the cops IRL who don't patrol the third ward at night and somehow find themselves in the safer part of town ignoring the drug dealers. You can't blame them.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Thunkkin on May 09, 2014, 05:54:24 PM
The Firestorm reaction was part of the reason we put up a post more than a week in advance of the mapping and the tavern change. 

Other than my Firestorm-lurv, all these changes look fantastic.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bcw81 on May 09, 2014, 06:07:07 PM
I want to see that statue in the Sanctuary Artisan Area relocated. That shit is sick.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Is Friday on May 09, 2014, 06:10:25 PM
I really like the changes offered. More interaction, I like it. I've always liked the darker common class roles in Tuluk, but there was rarely ever anyone else to RP with.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 09, 2014, 06:24:40 PM
If it's not possible to rethink this Firestorm thing, let me know. Because I'm holding out hope that it's not to late to fix this. Because really, you guys read the docs right? Yeah. Please reconsider?

Have you thought that perhaps the Firestorm being replaced by something else might have something to do with IC stuff going on as well? Edited - (Oh, looks like Nyr answered that one already!)

Also, speaking of the herb lady being moved elsewhere, will we still be able to sell to the poopmeister and collect enough cottons to be allowed purchase of our freedom from the cotton fields, friend?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Tiernan on May 09, 2014, 06:43:43 PM
Where do you people live? I want to come to your homes and try persuasion and failing that violence.
Disturbing.

I wish they would move the stables a bit closer to the middle-class tavern.

I always felt that the stables being so close to the Sanc had a lot to do with why it got so highly populated.

You come into town, you look in the tavern, see everyone there, you might as well join them, it is two squares from the stables anyways. Easy.

Would we build the most fancy tavern in town right next to the smelly stables anyways?

Kind of makes more sense to move it.

It's not on the high-level map, but the stables and wagonyard got moved to the Southwest corner of the Red Sun Commons.   The nearest pub to the stables will be the Tooth.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bracken on May 09, 2014, 07:10:23 PM
Fuckin' Muks! First they take our firepits. Now they take our Pub!







 ;)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 09, 2014, 07:17:24 PM
I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: LauraMars on May 09, 2014, 08:13:21 PM
I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Molten Heart on May 09, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
Really hope Firestorm is kept, because that place has history behind it and is it the typical bar my characters would play out of.

Otherwise everything is cool.  I  like the sound of it, just sad about Firestorm.

Yes, the Firestorm goes way back.  I'm still a little miffed that whomever redid the Dasari estate removed the restored observatory that the original estate there was built around.  Removing interesting little quirks seems to make the game generic and foreign, removing the nostalgia and fond memories I've had in these virtual places.

Otherwise.  Great idea!  Tuluk is too big.  It needs to be "full", rather than be lots of empty roads that connect around inaccessible space that might as well be empty.  That's how it seems now, at least.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Twilight on May 09, 2014, 08:25:12 PM
Where do you people live? I want to come to your homes and try persuasion and failing that violence.
Disturbing.

I wish they would move the stables a bit closer to the middle-class tavern.

I always felt that the stables being so close to the Sanc had a lot to do with why it got so highly populated.

You come into town, you look in the tavern, see everyone there, you might as well join them, it is two squares from the stables anyways. Easy.

Would we build the most fancy tavern in town right next to the smelly stables anyways?

Kind of makes more sense to move it.

It's not on the high-level map, but the stables and wagonyard got moved to the Southwest corner of the Red Sun Commons.   The nearest pub to the stables will be the Tooth.

The reason Sanctuary is popular is the same reason the Gaj was popular.  It is on the road between the gates and the rest of the city.  Which it will no longer be, if I interepret "north side of the Red Sun Commons" correctly.  If another tavern is immediately after the stables rather than the Sanctuary, especially if it is one of the other two that lets foreigners in, it will be the popular one, would be my guess.

Overall I like it, but I have a couple of concerns:

Looking at the map, I do hope it won't be too confusing for newbies.  The smaller size will help.  But the North Road seems to let in directly (essentially) to the Red Sun Commons.  Rather than having a street lead into the heart of the town from gate, which is fairly easy to remember.

Having a road like that is also a standard defensive setup.  IC'ly, that looks completely indefensible, with three ways to go just inside the gates, one of which is into an internal, open area of the city with multiple ways out of it.  I hope some thought will be given to the IC defensiveness of the gates and city perimeter.

Criminals.  If each of those squares is a room, which I am guessing how that should be interpretted...oh my.  One of the few great things about the expansiveness of Tuluk currently was the ability to find a victim for criminal activity.  I hope you don't scrunch all the soldiers that currently exist into that space, and that it is designed with criminals in mind.  Nyr's response above gives rise to concern this might not be the case, as I had kind of assumed you would do a holistic zone design, rather than just move rooms around, cause I trust you guys like that.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Lizzie on May 09, 2014, 08:29:59 PM
I wish more historic stories of Freil's Rest were available for the public view. I think that'd take most of the sting out of the Firestorm's upcoming closure. For me, at least. Most of my characters rarely ever hung out in the Firestorm anyway so from an IC perspective I really won't miss it all that much. But the stories that won't be told IC, will make me sad from an OOG perspective. There's a lot about the world that some veteran players knew about, but no longer tell about ICly because they no longer play, OR they are playing characters who would have no knowledge of the information. And so - these stories get lost ICly and OOCly. So - I wish there was some way of preserving the *storytelling* aspect of the Firestorm's existence. But I feel that way about a lot of things in the game that aren't mentioned ICly anymore and aren't in the official docs.

My other concern is the proximity of the stables to Freil's, vs. the proximity of the stables to the new tavern, vs. the proximity of the new tavern to Freil's. Consider the average hunter/trader/traveller who carries just enough of their own stuff, that they need a couple more bags to also carry a carru hide, a couple of gortok hides, a couple of gurth shells, and a few blocky stones of onyx, plus all the other "body parts" that come with the carru, tok, and gurth.

It's already a bit of a trek to the market as it is now, if you're loaded down. But unless you're at "unbelievably heavy" it's totally manageable. If the new stables location is all the way at the southwest corner of the Commons though, it might not be manageable at all. Maybe if there were a couple more NPC vendors who buy and sell raw materials (including gemstones please) in the Commons - that might solve the problem.

Other than those two things, I think this is a great change. I remember when "New Tuluk" first was released, and it was even bigger than it is now. The ride from the Harzen and Reynolte gates to the Tribal market was ridiculous. It got trimmed quite a bit and it was a great improvement. But I think this new map will be an even bigger improvement, notwithstanding the two issues I already mentioned.

Lastly - I realize the Undertuluk won't be the Undertuluk again (RIP - funnest spot evar in the North, IMO), but maybe if the Warrens could actually reflect more of the atmosphere hinted at in the room descriptions and occasional echoes (which also dates back many many years to another era of Northern life), that'd be terrific.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 09, 2014, 08:31:12 PM
I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.


This is one of the big reasons why I haven't played a character based out of Tuluk in years - I hated how it took 1259871295687124 moves to get anywhere I wanted to go.  With this change going in, I might actually make my next character a Tuluki!


ps
Screw the Firestorm, BRING BACK FLINT'S
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 09, 2014, 08:48:43 PM
That's ok, when you realize you're wrong, you can retconn it back in.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 09, 2014, 08:53:36 PM
I haven't read this whole thing but I have a question about the Old City area.  Will it be still within the walls for grebbers to greb safely?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 09, 2014, 08:54:41 PM
That's ok, when you realize you're wrong, you can retconn it back in.

That's not a great attitude, Barz!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 09, 2014, 09:00:39 PM

I don't think throwing out game history like it means nothing is a good idea.They asked for comments.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Zoan on May 09, 2014, 09:11:46 PM
They changed it, now it sucks. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Molten Heart on May 09, 2014, 09:14:37 PM

I don't think throwing out game history like it means nothing is a good idea.They asked for comments.
+1
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Fathi on May 09, 2014, 09:15:01 PM
I'm not going to comment on the IC history behind the taverns because I'm viewing this change as mostly an OOC one but it did always bother me a little that a) Tuluk had so many taverns spread out over like 60 rooms and b) Kurac and Kadius both had their own taverns. In my experience it led to "this clan hangs out at this bar" and "this clan hangs out at this bar" and while that may be realistic from an IC standpoint I don't think it helped interaction much.

I remember back when I played my Chosen, the Kuracis and Kadians around at the time kept trying to insist my PC meet with them and do business with them in THEIR BAR and that always seemed really weird to me because I didn't think a noble would really want to be seen drinking in the Tooth.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 09, 2014, 09:18:02 PM

I don't think throwing out game history like it means nothing is a good idea.They asked for comments.

I don't think they are throwing out game history like it means nothing...It actually looked like a well put together proposal, that they put a lot of thought into, judging by the announcement post. Saying things like "When you are wrong, and you retcon it back in, i'll be thumbing my nose at you" aren't very productive contributions to a discussion. I'm all for discussing the change (there's parts I like, parts I don't), but I don't think that is the best way to go about it.

I do agree that getting rid of the Firestorm is a shame, but lots of things have disappeared for IC reasons from the game over the years, and OOC now that I think of it. Based on IC rumors, it looks like it dovetails nicely into this proposal. I'm fine with the change. I like the idea of three taverns in closer proximity with each other, and less distance in-between destinations in Tuluk.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Tiernan on May 09, 2014, 10:17:38 PM
Overall I like it, but I have a couple of concerns:

Looking at the map, I do hope it won't be too confusing for newbies.  The smaller size will help.  But the North Road seems to let in directly (essentially) to the Red Sun Commons.  Rather than having a street lead into the heart of the town from gate, which is fairly easy to remember.

Having a road like that is also a standard defensive setup.  IC'ly, that looks completely indefensible, with three ways to go just inside the gates, one of which is into an internal, open area of the city with multiple ways out of it.  I hope some thought will be given to the IC defensiveness of the gates and city perimeter.

Criminals.  If each of those squares is a room, which I am guessing how that should be interpretted...oh my.  One of the few great things about the expansiveness of Tuluk currently was the ability to find a victim for criminal activity.  I hope you don't scrunch all the soldiers that currently exist into that space, and that it is designed with criminals in mind.  Nyr's response above gives rise to concern this might not be the case, as I had kind of assumed you would do a holistic zone design, rather than just move rooms around, cause I trust you guys like that.

So, first off regarding this high-level map:

(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma04pxBG9f1r7rib5o1_500.gif)

I didn't have time to build it to scale or paint it.  :)

Actually, that's not true.  I can't show you the scaled, super-detailed spreadsheets I have which map out the current city grid and the proposed one, which I used as my guide for building all the scripts  that will do all the heavy lifting in a couple weeks.  This is not a 1x1 mapping grid by any stretch of the imagination, is it a high-level overview of the city.  In particular it shows the notable areas / landmarks and roads.  Please don't try to read more out of it than that.

The North Road entrance is unchanged, you'll still pass through but the North Road does open up into the RSC faster instead of skirting its northern edge.   As for defense, I can think of a few ways that the RSC could be turned into a giant kill box against invaders (or civil unrest), considering its got a few points of ingress and surrounded by walls which one can assume are fortified and patrolled by expert marksmen.   Assuming your army can breach the main gate and the ancient Scaien Wall first.

The goal of this proposal / effort is to minimize changes and maximize opportunities for interaction and roleplay.  Transit times are detrimental to the playability of the city.  Spread things too far out and folks will go to an area that is more efficient with their playtime. 

At the heart of this game the point is to interact with other players, and have fun doing it.   Player density drives interaction which fuels roleplay.   Tuluk's expansive geography dilutes player density.  This effort ought to help boost density and I hope increase the appeal for players to try it out.   I also believe that a lot of the changes we've been making in Tuluk are to create an environment that players want to play in. 

Change is necessary, folks.  Both in life and IC.   We're on a quest for continuous improvement in our game offering to players.  I think you'll like the new layout overall, finding it easier to navigate and faster to get things done.  And most importantly, find others to interact with.   Tuluk isn't a solo-instance dungeon, but sometimes it can feel that way.   I hope that you enjoy the work we do to keep this game around, enrich your experience with our storytelling and world-building efforts, and try to make it a community you like being part of.

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 09, 2014, 10:18:53 PM
I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

Okay, color me confused by this response... But isn't Allanak a LOT bigger than Tuluk already? At least it always seemed that way to me... Part of the reason I hated Allanak was because it was too big.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 09, 2014, 10:21:56 PM
I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

Sorry about the double post... It acted like it hadn't posted so I tried again and it did.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 09, 2014, 10:35:42 PM
I think it looks 90% wonderful. I'm sure it will have the desired affect. I just think you can have the same affect by moving the Firestorm to the new location rather than replacing it. Which is not as good as keeping it in the village but much better than losing it.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: ShaLeah on May 09, 2014, 10:43:25 PM
Wow.

I like the idea of the Sanc being nothing but rich affiliated folk and their guests, like the old time Trader's Inn was. Moar segregation!

I like the Tooth staying.

I really think Firestorms should stay historically. This makes me sad, seriously.

Glad for the majority of the changes.

I heart Natious the nauseous in my feelings place.

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 09, 2014, 10:54:34 PM
I really hope that the Firestorm is needed to stay as an artifact of the past and for the sake of memories is some sort of joke that I don't understand, because if you can't go along IC driven changes in the gameworld for the sake of keeping "historical memories" alive and well, that's pretty sad.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: LauraMars on May 09, 2014, 10:55:53 PM
I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

Okay, color me confused by this response... But isn't Allanak a LOT bigger than Tuluk already? At least it always seemed that way to me... Part of the reason I hated Allanak was because it was too big.

I don't actually know how many rooms there are in nak vs how many there are in tuluk.  But the frequently populated areas of allanak are MUCH closer together, and in Tuluk I always felt vaguely depressed whenever I needed to go anywhere because I knew it would take so long and require so much spamwalking.  In Allanak I don't feel that way.  So yeah..this is a great change.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: boog on May 09, 2014, 11:12:36 PM
How am I supposed to delay things in Tuluk now?

"Meet me in the Tooth."
"But I'm in the Circle. It's going to take a few hours."

Dammit. My (future/past) plans.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Yseulte on May 09, 2014, 11:18:38 PM
With the gardens, tribal-quarter and Poet's abreast one another as the map shows - how will that work to safeguard certain cultures from non-Citizens that may or may not currently be barred to them as is?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 09, 2014, 11:22:48 PM
I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

Okay, color me confused by this response... But isn't Allanak a LOT bigger than Tuluk already? At least it always seemed that way to me... Part of the reason I hated Allanak was because it was too big.

I don't actually know how many rooms there are in nak vs how many there are in tuluk.  But the frequently populated areas of allanak are MUCH closer together, and in Tuluk I always felt vaguely depressed whenever I needed to go anywhere because I knew it would take so long and require so much spamwalking.  In Allanak I don't feel that way.  So yeah..this is a great change.

I don't know, I guess 'nak has changed since I was last there, but it always seemed like you had to go a great distance to get from one thing to another... You had to walk more than twenty rooms to get from the apartment to the market... And the market was at least a dozen rooms from the stables... Just seemed like a lot of walking... But like I said that was a long time ago... Close to a RL year ago that I was in 'nak. So maybe things have changed... The size was always an intimidating factory... I don't mind size for wilderness purposes but learning a city that you're trying to survive in shouldn't be that tough. Tuuk even after the crater was gone it didn't take that long to figure out where I needed to go for food and water and the like...

Speaking of food and water, I'm not sure if they post talking about the changes mentioned this... But I know that the Firestorm has a place to cook and if that gets taken away is something going to be available for places to cook or is everyone just going to sit around the Sanctuary eating fruits and raw meat?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 09, 2014, 11:33:39 PM
Speaking of food and water, I'm not sure if they post talking about the changes mentioned this... But I know that the Firestorm has a place to cook and if that gets taken away is something going to be available for places to cook or is everyone just going to sit around the Sanctuary eating fruits and raw meat?

If your House doesn't offer one, I can think of two other firepits that will still be in the updated map and are available to anyone.

YOU SHALL PREVAIL.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 09, 2014, 11:43:55 PM
Aside from the Noble and Merchant Quarters being so far away from everything, and the Arena to a certian extent, Allanak is actually very compact. Moreover, with the exception of the routes to the Noble Quarter, there is stuff to see along the way, too.

I think Allanak could do with losing just a few rooms worth of road in the northern part of the city, where the Merchant and Noble Quarters are, but aside from that, Allanak is very close to perfect in terms of commute.

EDIT: I suppose you could shrink the Bazaar down too.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 09, 2014, 11:44:11 PM
Speaking of food and water, I'm not sure if they post talking about the changes mentioned this... But I know that the Firestorm has a place to cook and if that gets taken away is something going to be available for places to cook or is everyone just going to sit around the Sanctuary eating fruits and raw meat?

If your House doesn't offer one, I can think of two other firepits that will still be in the updated map and are available to anyone.

YOU SHALL PREVAIL.

Never mind I just re-read the staff announcement post and there's a cooking area off the middle-class tavern.

Where are the various apartment buildings going to be located... I mean the non-Warren's ones in particular... Like currently there are two south of the Tooth and one off from Dark Moon Road. From what this looks like is Dark Moon is going to be shortened or warped in some manner. Any sort of visualization for stuff like this would be helpful.

How long of a maintenance window are we looking at for Monday May 19? It will probably take longer than an hour for code hashing as well as walkthrough to make sure nothing is broken. Just wondering how long though.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bracken on May 10, 2014, 12:26:20 AM
I think it looks 90% wonderful. I'm sure it will have the desired affect. I just think you can have the same affect by moving the Firestorm to the new location rather than replacing it. Which is not as good as keeping it in the village but much better than losing it.


I'm totally with you there, Barz. I suppose we'll cry for a week and get over it.
My head's feeling twisted at the moment, trying to fit the whole recon....is it a recon? into my alternative reality.
Does it mean....oh heck....I can't work out what it means. That my PC never....
Help someone. What does it mean?

signed
outed Tuluki
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Old Kank on May 10, 2014, 12:33:11 AM
Somewhere, beneath the scrublands, some of my characters just shat in their unmarked graves.

Sure, this is going to be a positive change for the playerbase, but it sounds like you guys are unnecessarily sweeping a lot of the player-driven history under the rug.

PCs fought and died for the Firestorm.  And the Old Quarter?  Let's not even talk about the Old Quarter.  The best part about Tuluk was its history.

And why does the Tooth still have brawling in a city that abhors public displays of violence?  I've never understood that one.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 10, 2014, 12:45:19 AM
Well, I would guess that's because brawling might be unseemly, but it's still brawling. It's just not going to get you a lot of fans.

I do agree with the old areas, though. I'd love to see anything major kept. If you have to put it behind a gate, in the Old Quarter's case, do so, but keep it. You'll find a use for it.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bracken on May 10, 2014, 12:48:28 AM
Still thinking. The Red's still gets business, though it's a long way to walk, especially for its clientèle. Is a Pub in Friels truly out of the way? Close to the shopping.

No Barz. I don't want it shifted. That would warp reality and history too much.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 10, 2014, 12:54:12 AM
I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

Okay, color me confused by this response... But isn't Allanak a LOT bigger than Tuluk already? At least it always seemed that way to me... Part of the reason I hated Allanak was because it was too big.

I don't actually know how many rooms there are in nak vs how many there are in tuluk.  But the frequently populated areas of allanak are MUCH closer together, and in Tuluk I always felt vaguely depressed whenever I needed to go anywhere because I knew it would take so long and require so much spamwalking.  In Allanak I don't feel that way.  So yeah..this is a great change.

I don't know, I guess 'nak has changed since I was last there, but it always seemed like you had to go a great distance to get from one thing to another... You had to walk more than twenty rooms to get from the apartment to the market... And the market was at least a dozen rooms from the stables... Just seemed like a lot of walking... But like I said that was a long time ago... Close to a RL year ago that I was in 'nak. So maybe things have changed... The size was always an intimidating factory... I don't mind size for wilderness purposes but learning a city that you're trying to survive in shouldn't be that tough. Tuuk even after the crater was gone it didn't take that long to figure out where I needed to go for food and water and the like...

Speaking of food and water, I'm not sure if they post talking about the changes mentioned this... But I know that the Firestorm has a place to cook and if that gets taken away is something going to be available for places to cook or is everyone just going to sit around the Sanctuary eating fruits and raw meat?

Nak is bigger than Tuluk, especially if you consider the Rinth, but not by a massive amount. It's also a lot denser, where Tuluk has a lot of long roads with nothing in-between. This, from what I can tell from the OP, eliminates the sprawled out nature of the city.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nekhbet on May 10, 2014, 01:05:15 AM
For clarification purposes only, the Firestorm Pub closing down is IC.

The resizing of the streets is OOC.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 10, 2014, 01:19:09 AM
Thanks, Nekhbet, for a clarifying
FIRST!!!!
post.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dakota on May 10, 2014, 03:32:45 AM
Over / Under UnderTuluk gets put back in, in some fashion?

Am I understanding that the warrens will be changed a bit in a different update?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bracken on May 10, 2014, 03:42:06 AM
Thanks Nekhbet. Of course. I think Nyr mentioned that too. I'm sorry I overreacted at the thought of losing my precious realities.
If it's IC it's OK. I can use my daggers
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dakota on May 10, 2014, 03:46:42 AM
And why does the Tooth still have brawling in a city that abhors public displays of violence?  I've never understood that one.

b/c it gives some players hope that maybe one day a bar brawl in the ghetto will happen without the city going apeshit.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Evilone on May 10, 2014, 04:44:22 AM
Won't someone please think of the children!

Btw, I like the idea in theory. Can't wait to see if it works out IG. *fingers crossed*

Thanks for the work.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 10, 2014, 09:41:42 AM
I'm not too happy about the changes. I will mean completely re-learning Tuluk, which will take a bit of time. I've grown accustomed to here's how far and what direction I need to walk in to get from here to there. Now I'm going to have to re-learn it and that might take more time than just walking the distance. Comments and feedback seem mostly positive, which holds promise. I hope this change brings in new players to Tuluk because just shortening up the distances between people isn't going to fix the problem of seeing 50 some odd players logged in besides myself and my character walks the stretch between public areas and only finds 3 other PCs to RP with. The only fix for that is more players to play Tuluk. If there population isn't there no matter how many shrinking of streets you do isn't going to change the fact that the populations ISN'T there. Time will only tell. I'm still looking forward to knowing where essential buildings are going to be like apartments and how to get to and from them to other places. As far as the population increasing only time will tell if this causes that to happen. I'm hoping it does.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: ShaLeah on May 10, 2014, 10:02:00 AM
I know what will make Tuluk better!

The Highlord Tektolnes taking His rightful place again! Muahahahahaaaaaa!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Thunkkin on May 10, 2014, 10:09:39 AM
Righto! If the Firestorm is IC and the result of player plots and conflicts, then huzzah and onward! If it was an OOC thing, I was having trouble wrapping my brain around it.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 10, 2014, 10:30:13 AM
I know what will make Tuluk better!

The Highlord Tektolnes taking His rightful place again! Muahahahahaaaaaa!

NOT!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 10:35:07 AM
Removing interesting little quirks seems to make the game generic and foreign, removing the nostalgia and fond memories I've had in these virtual places.

We'll have nostalgia in a few spots I think.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 10:38:52 AM
Looking at the map, I do hope it won't be too confusing for newbies.  The smaller size will help.  But the North Road seems to let in directly (essentially) to the Red Sun Commons.  Rather than having a street lead into the heart of the town from gate, which is fairly easy to remember.

The Red Sun Commons will be the heart of the town.  Go north to get to your shops and the tribal market.  Go south to get to the Warrens.  And right down the north road, you'll see the Pyramid.  All roads lead to Utep, praise his name. 

Quote
Having a road like that is also a standard defensive setup.  IC'ly, that looks completely indefensible, with three ways to go just inside the gates, one of which is into an internal, open area of the city with multiple ways out of it.  I hope some thought will be given to the IC defensiveness of the gates and city perimeter.

Virtual and lore/city defensibility doesn't necessarily have to match up with PC playability and ease of movement from place to place.

Quote
Criminals.  If each of those squares is a room, which I am guessing how that should be interpretted...

Not at all, it's a generic visual representation.  Mentioned earlier, but it doesn't cover every possible room inside.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 10:40:09 AM
Lastly - I realize the Undertuluk won't be the Undertuluk again (RIP - funnest spot evar in the North, IMO), but maybe if the Warrens could actually reflect more of the atmosphere hinted at in the room descriptions and occasional echoes (which also dates back many many years to another era of Northern life), that'd be terrific.

Yep, mentioned above but that's a project requiring a larger amount of work and would be separate from this.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 10:44:22 AM
With the gardens, tribal-quarter and Poet's abreast one another as the map shows - how will that work to safeguard certain cultures from non-Citizens that may or may not currently be barred to them as is?

It's a top-level view, it does not show every room, chokepoint, or the existing tattoo checkers.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 10:52:05 AM
Speaking of food and water, I'm not sure if they post talking about the changes mentioned this... But I know that the Firestorm has a place to cook and if that gets taken away is something going to be available for places to cook or is everyone just going to sit around the Sanctuary eating fruits and raw meat?

If your House doesn't offer one, I can think of two other firepits that will still be in the updated map and are available to anyone.

YOU SHALL PREVAIL.

Never mind I just re-read the staff announcement post and there's a cooking area off the middle-class tavern.

Where are the various apartment buildings going to be located... I mean the non-Warren's ones in particular... Like currently there are two south of the Tooth and one off from Dark Moon Road. From what this looks like is Dark Moon is going to be shortened or warped in some manner. Any sort of visualization for stuff like this would be helpful.

There's only one apartment building that will have to be moved.  We'll find a good spot for it.

Quote
How long of a maintenance window are we looking at for Monday May 19? It will probably take longer than an hour for code hashing as well as walkthrough to make sure nothing is broken. Just wondering how long though.

This is why we have test ports.  We've already been testing the script to move stuff.  Honestly, from what I understand, we can do all of the back-end work before the date arrives and then do a maintenance reboot to put it in live.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 10:59:25 AM
PCs fought and died for the Firestorm.  And the Old Quarter?  Let's not even talk about the Old Quarter.  The best part about Tuluk was its history.

PCs found and died for the Battle of Tyn Dashra and all they got was a volcanic caldera.

The best part of Tuluk might have been its history, but the worst part was the unwieldy size of the city.  It gets wrecked, it gets ruins, great--and then what do you do with those ruins?  Expand more stuff into them, replace them with new nice stuff that is also pretty far from the city center?  Turning the Old Quarter (ostensibly a "ruin") into "virtual space that has either been reclaimed or made virtual" works fine for now.

There are several things not shown on the map that people think are part of the Old Quarter/the descs might even say that, yet they aren't being removed per the scripting I've reviewed.  The outrage over tons of history being removed seems to stem from Firestorm being touched in any way.  I can understand attachment to it, but...it'll be okay.

Quote
And why does the Tooth still have brawling in a city that abhors public displays of violence?  I've never understood that one.

God forbid a dive bar has a bar fight.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 11:00:35 AM
Over / Under UnderTuluk gets put back in, in some fashion?

Am I understanding that the warrens will be changed a bit in a different update?


To the first:  we haven't mentioned anything like that.
To the second:  all that I've said is that that would be a separate project.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 10, 2014, 11:02:02 AM
Speaking of food and water, I'm not sure if they post talking about the changes mentioned this... But I know that the Firestorm has a place to cook and if that gets taken away is something going to be available for places to cook or is everyone just going to sit around the Sanctuary eating fruits and raw meat?

If your House doesn't offer one, I can think of two other firepits that will still be in the updated map and are available to anyone.

YOU SHALL PREVAIL.

Never mind I just re-read the staff announcement post and there's a cooking area off the middle-class tavern.

Where are the various apartment buildings going to be located... I mean the non-Warren's ones in particular... Like currently there are two south of the Tooth and one off from Dark Moon Road. From what this looks like is Dark Moon is going to be shortened or warped in some manner. Any sort of visualization for stuff like this would be helpful.

There's only one apartment building that will have to be moved.  We'll find a good spot for it.

Quote
How long of a maintenance window are we looking at for Monday May 19? It will probably take longer than an hour for code hashing as well as walkthrough to make sure nothing is broken. Just wondering how long though.

This is why we have test ports.  We've already been testing the script to move stuff.  Honestly, from what I understand, we can do all of the back-end work before the date arrives and then do a maintenance reboot to put it in live.

Thank you for the response, Nyr. I was also wondering if any of the changes will affect pieces of art and if those will just go away or be moved to a new home? After all Tuluk is about art.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 10, 2014, 11:04:15 AM

And why does the Tooth still have brawling in a city that abhors public displays of violence?  I've never understood that one.

God forbid a dive bar has a bar fight.

Brawling code is just that CODE. Just because you can do it doesn't always mean you should or legally can... And like Nyr said the Tooth is a seedy bar and has always been such, full of rough and tough people in it. Hunters, Warren's Rats, etc cause for high emotions at times.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 11:13:26 AM
I'm not too happy about the changes. I will mean completely re-learning Tuluk, which will take a bit of time.

The Sanctuary is still in the same spot, generally speaking.  Friel's still has the same stuff in it.  The Tribal Market still has the same stuff in it.  Poet's Circle.  Warrens.  RSC gets changed somewhat.  The Noble Quarter is still southeast of RSC.  The Heart is still north of the noble quarter.  The Heart is still south of Poet's Circle.

The proportions are slightly different.  The unnecessary connective tissue will be excised.  The cool stuff that deserves to be linked will still be linked.

Quote
I've grown accustomed to here's how far and what direction I need to walk in to get from here to there. Now I'm going to have to re-learn it and that might take more time than just walking the distance.

You've grown accustomed to lengthy spamwalking.  You'll be okay.

Quote
Comments and feedback seem mostly positive, which holds promise. I hope this change brings in new players to Tuluk because just shortening up the distances between people isn't going to fix the problem of seeing 50 some odd players logged in besides myself and my character walks the stretch between public areas and only finds 3 other PCs to RP with.

Actually, there's fair likelihood that the new tavern location being a starting location and also being central to most of the city-state would actually cause more new players that point to the city to run into players, in general.  This, at least, was one major goal here:  helping out players both new and old.  The goal isn't to bring new players to Tuluk, it is to assist any players that choose to play there.

Quote
The only fix for that is more players to play Tuluk. If there population isn't there no matter how many shrinking of streets you do isn't going to change the fact that the populations ISN'T there. Time will only tell. I'm still looking forward to knowing where essential buildings are going to be like apartments and how to get to and from them to other places. As far as the population increasing only time will tell if this causes that to happen. I'm hoping it does.

Continual complaining about this isn't going to do anything, and also, increasing the playerbase in Tuluk isn't even the stated goal of this project.  People play where they want to play.  If anything, the sideways complaints about sponsored roles in Tuluk and the frequent complaints about the playerbase/lack thereof in Tuluk might well make people less likely to want to play there--because who wants to play around someone that complains about what they do or don't do?

I get that you have an issue with this but it has jack all to do with the remapping.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 11:15:02 AM
Thank you for the response, Nyr. I was also wondering if any of the changes will affect pieces of art and if those will just go away or be moved to a new home? After all Tuluk is about art.

Maybe.  Or probably not.  That's a pretty vague question.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 10, 2014, 11:41:10 AM
Thank you for the response, Nyr. I was also wondering if any of the changes will affect pieces of art and if those will just go away or be moved to a new home? After all Tuluk is about art.

Maybe.  Or probably not.  That's a pretty vague question.

I was trying not to go too in dept with IC information... From the looks of the restructuring, Dark Moon is pretty much going to disappear or most of it will. There's art work along Dark Moon that was recently made (Okay recently is subjective I suppose, but still its within the last RL year) Was wondering if that was going away as well. The whole idea of a possible shift of apartments and other things is frightening. I suppose I'll make sure my character is sleeping in their place before logging out on the 18th.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: LittleLady on May 10, 2014, 12:43:23 PM
I haven't been playing for very long, and as a new player, I can say that the size of Tuluk as it was, was very intimidating. It took a very long time, and the implementation of the directions command for me to really learn my way around.

I think the changes talked about will be a benefit to Tuluk. I think that you'll find it will be easier to adjust and relearn than some people think. I know that I'm looking forward to the decrease in time it takes to get everywhere. I think one of the biggest problems new people have is missing out on RP because by the time you got to wherever you were going, it was time to turn around and head back. In my opinion, I think streamlining the city will help to attract new players and returning players to Tuluk.

Besides, even if the city is smaller, the surrounding area is still huge and holds a lot to explore.

Thanks for the work on this admins. I'm looking forward to seeing what the new changes hold, and how they work out.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bracken on May 10, 2014, 01:19:11 PM

The Red Sun Commons will be the heart of the town.  Go north to get to your shops and the tribal market.  Go south to get to the Warrens.  And right down the north road, you'll see the Pyramid.  All roads lead to Utep, praise his name. 


In that sense the new bar is fairly central on the map. But in not so much in centre of PC population flow . One thing I like about the Pub on an ooc level is that it's handy to the shops, especially for new players out of chargen.  The Gaj always seems so far from the Bazaar, (and even further from  the Byn)
The shuffling of the Circle and the Tribal market looks great from an ooc perspective.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Old Kank on May 10, 2014, 02:06:39 PM
PCs fought and died for the Firestorm.  And the Old Quarter?  Let's not even talk about the Old Quarter.  The best part about Tuluk was its history.

PCs found and died for the Battle of Tyn Dashra and all they got was a volcanic caldera.

There's a pretty big distinction between the two, and you know it.  The game's history and players' ability to affect change are what separate ArmageddonMUD from any other hack and slash MUD, MMO, JRPG, or whatever.  Players fought and died for the Battle of Tyn Dashra.  They lost.  Sucks for them, but they lost because they were outgunned, not because of corporate restructuring.  If the staff had come out and said, "Hey guys, we're consolidating the playerbase.  The gypsies are now closed, and Tyn Dashra has been replaced with a volcano," I would have been pretty disappointed with that, too. 

If this IC closure of the Firestorm is the end result of months of plotting and scheming, and Zombie Aldebrand is going to rise from his grave to firebomb the place tomorrow, then... whoops.  My bad.  But I'd be really surprised that you announced its closure beforehand if that were the case.  As it is, it feels like a pretty soulless move.

And why does the Tooth still have brawling in a city that abhors public displays of violence?  I've never understood that one.

God forbid a dive bar has a bar fight.

But... but... Muk Utep is revered as a god throughout the Gol Krathu!  And in RPT #17 of 2006, Utep came forth to the people of Tuluk and did forbid violence in all forms in his city.  The only people who would go against Utep would be filthy heathens and non-citizens, who the Tuluki templarate would have a vested interest in quietly rounding up and re-educating!  And...!  And!  Eh, screw it.  I haven't even played in Tuluk in years.  I'm just going to keep playing in Allanak where the setting still matters!  Where elementalists are still called clerics, people still ride horses, Kadius sells steel-tipped boots, and you can buy sandwiches in the Rogues Dir- er, I mean, you can still buy felafels in the Traders - shit.  I mean, I'm just going to go hang out in the Bard's Barrel.   Oh goddamnit.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 10, 2014, 02:15:33 PM
... It gets wrecked, it gets ruins, great--and then what do you do with those ruins?  Expand more stuff into them, replace them with new nice stuff that is also pretty far from the city center?  Turning the Old Quarter (ostensibly a "ruin") into "virtual space that has either been reclaimed or made virtual" works fine for now.
Might I suggest that you reduce the size of the ruins as well, and lock it behind a gate so that for the everyday citizen, it is pretty much a none city, but for the sake of RPTS or templars or nobles that might want to wander them, it is there, and it exists. I know that there are a lot of rooms even in the ruins that had no real function or relevance, but there were things like the crumbling statue and the bridge and the altar/shrine thing, that did have function and could be used, by the right person, as a roleplay point of interest. (Note: I might be getting some of these landmarks wrong, because it's been RL years since I was in the ruins, but I remember there being at least three things I found interesting while walking through the ruins.)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 10, 2014, 02:19:01 PM
But... but... Muk Utep is revered as a god throughout the Gol Krathu!  And in RPT #17 of 2006, Utep came forth to the people of Tuluk and did forbid violence in all forms in his city.  The only people who would go against Utep would be filthy heathens and non-citizens, who the Tuluki templarate would have a vested interest in quietly rounding up and re-educating!  And...!  And!  Eh, screw it.  I haven't even played in Tuluk in years.  I'm just going to keep playing in Allanak where the setting still matters!  Where elementalists are still called clerics, people still ride horses, Kadius sells steel-tipped boots, and you can buy sandwiches in the Rogues Dir- er, I mean, you can still buy felafels in the Traders - shit.  I mean, I'm just going to go hang out in the Bard's Barrel.   Oh goddamnit.
Ok. This shit is funny as fuck.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: ShaLeah on May 10, 2014, 03:58:51 PM
But... but... Muk Utep is revered as a god throughout the Gol Krathu!  And in RPT #17 of 2006, Utep came forth to the people of Tuluk and did forbid violence in all forms in his city.  The only people who would go against Utep would be filthy heathens and non-citizens, who the Tuluki templarate would have a vested interest in quietly rounding up and re-educating!  And...!  And!  Eh, screw it.  I haven't even played in Tuluk in years.  I'm just going to keep playing in Allanak where the setting still matters!  Where elementalists are still called clerics, people still ride horses, Kadius sells steel-tipped boots, and you can buy sandwiches in the Rogues Dir- er, I mean, you can still buy felafels in the Traders - shit.  I mean, I'm just going to go hang out in the Bard's Barrel.   Oh goddamnit.
Ok. This shit is funny as fuck.

+1

Some of us STILL call it the Bards Barrel. In game.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 10, 2014, 04:27:29 PM
I know I do.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: solera on May 10, 2014, 04:42:12 PM
Old Kank, the Pub has had a bit of bad luck the last year or three.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Delirium on May 10, 2014, 06:27:48 PM
What about the crater, and the pillar? Is it just suddenly not going to exist?

I hope that you can find a way to sensibly tie together the game's rich history with the need to restructure, rather than sweep details under the rug for the sake of convenience.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 07:11:51 PM
What about the crater, and the pillar? Is it just suddenly not going to exist?

I hope that you can find a way to sensibly tie together the game's rich history with the need to restructure, rather than sweep details under the rug for the sake of convenience.

The cool stuff that deserves to be linked will still be linked.

I'm checking through the staff-side map to confirm things that people are worried about will actually be there and that we've actually already taken that into account.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 10, 2014, 08:17:30 PM
We've retained the cemetery and the plaza.  Part of the OQ wipe did mean outright stripping out the rooms surrounding the crater and the pillar.  However, both can still be referenced in what we are planning to do, so I'll make a note to add that to the plans and review that as we move forward.  If there are any other relevant historical pieces that we have missed in some way, we can also make sure those are present in a way that allows them to exist without creating tons of filler/clutter.

PCs fought and died for the Firestorm.  And the Old Quarter?  Let's not even talk about the Old Quarter.  The best part about Tuluk was its history.

PCs found and died for the Battle of Tyn Dashra and all they got was a volcanic caldera.

There's a pretty big distinction between the two, and you know it.

You're right.  One was big enough and important enough to back up with a major plot that drove tons of other things both IC and OOC, and one is small enough (but noteworthy enough) to back up with a minor plot that will help drive one or two things.  Since there's some mapping/tavern changes going on anyway, we're letting people know some of the details in advance.  As it is something people care about, they get their chance to vent here.  That's what you're doing and it is what others are doing as well.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: HavokBlue on May 10, 2014, 08:46:30 PM
I don't care a whole bunch either way because I generally avoid playing in Tuluk, but is there a particular OOC reason the Firestorm is being canned and replaced with a new tavern? If this was answered previously in the thread, disregard me. I haven't gone through all 5 pages yet.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Tiernan on May 10, 2014, 08:59:46 PM
I'll honest and say that I don't think we've missed anything.    We virtualized a few things which made sense to do so, but I want to firmly emphasize that we're not using the magick retcon wand and saying it never happened or never existed.

Some points to ponder:

We posted in advance to ask for feedback, and we're listening.  We'll consider your concerns and make any appropriate adjustments that we feel fit in with what and how we are designing and administering the world.   

End Tiernan the staffer

Start Tiernan the individual

As a personal observation, it's hard for me to keep an open mind while sifting through all the vitriol and snark.  This is a project 3 months in the making, soaking up a lot of my time and effort. Right now I'm feeling that if being open and transparent means having to deal with this every time, then perhaps it's time to do what I feel is best for the game and keep my communications solely among staff.   At least that way I can blissfully ignore the vitriolic angst on the GDB until it fades away.   I'd rather not, as I believe that our community has plenty of good ideas on how to improve the game.  But hey, since I'm being open about my feelings, that's my current mood.  The internet is full of trolls, I get it, I am hoping our community is different.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: KankWhisperer on May 10, 2014, 09:11:04 PM
Tiernan, we all have to deal with the GDB. It's not all that great as a powerless player either.

To me it seems like the upcoming closing of the Firestorm led to IC events and IC events did not lead up to the closing of the Firestorm.
I don't understand why the Firestorm can't be the mid-tier tavern. Why does the mid-tier tavern have to be in the Commons?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barzalene on May 10, 2014, 09:22:05 PM
I apologize if my responses count among those that felt unduly sharp.

While I think it's clear that my position aligns with kankwhisperer in this matter, rather than staff, I don't think disagreement needs to be acrimonious, or in this forum, personal. It was not my intention to be unpleasant.

And I promise, I'm not really coming over to anyone's house to beat anyone up.

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Is Friday on May 10, 2014, 09:41:29 PM
On that note: I think some players are getting too possessive of the IG content. Tribes have been destroyed, cities/villages wiped out of game, and plenty of crafts were never crafted again (oh the horror!)

I wonder, though: Is there a timeline or general idea on when/how the inactive Houses might be re-opened? Or has this just not been looked at since then? I'm sure it's at the bottom of a list, somewhere.....
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BleakOne on May 10, 2014, 10:05:01 PM
It's sort of a hobby for a lot of the jaded oldbies to feel persecuted by staff no matter what is going on. I tend to ignore it, to be honest. If this didn't happen, they'd complain about stagnation and Tuluk being too big, if it does happen, it's scary-bad change and Tuluk is too shrunken.

I can't see anything remotely bad in the coming change. I'd advise you have the new bar sell milk, however, as I think the Firestorm was the only place to get it in Tuluk.  :)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Delirium on May 10, 2014, 10:28:23 PM
I think this is a good change. I disagree with some of the ways it's being implemented but I can see the logic behind it.

I'm glad to hear that historical landmarks are not beig retconned.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dresan on May 10, 2014, 11:32:59 PM
Start Tiernan the individual

As a personal observation, it's hard for me to keep an open mind while sifting through all the vitriol and snark.  This is a project 3 months in the making, soaking up a lot of my time and effort. Right now I'm feeling that if being open and transparent means having to deal with this every time, then perhaps it's time to do what I feel is best for the game and keep my communications solely among staff.   At least that way I can blissfully ignore the vitriolic angst on the GDB until it fades away.   I'd rather not, as I believe that our community has plenty of good ideas on how to improve the game.  But hey, since I'm being open about my feelings, that's my current mood.  The internet is full of trolls, I get it, I am hoping our community is different.

I don't want to derail this thread but..

What you are experiencing here is what a number of people who've ever posted ideas on this forum sometimes experience. Some people in this community are very resistant to change, new ideas and even just simple debates over things. Unfortunately instead of having to make constructive agreements against another person's ideas most posters here often just resorted to snark and vitriol against each other.  Players do this to other players, staff do it to players, and of course as you see in this thread players do it to staff too.It is often under the guide of 'I know something you don't but its too IC to explain'.  When someone suggests an idea that isn't immediately popular, people on this forum shit on it, and then they shit on the person submitting it, often times without proper reasoning or argument but instead with mean spirited unhelpful comments and staff has allowed this to happen over the years. Whenever I want to post an idea on this forum, I have to ask myself if I really want to deal with the regular people posting on this forum and a lot of the time i don't. I don't think I'm completely alone in that  since 250~ people play this game, and most don't bother posting at all either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this forums are pretty toxic, even in comparison with other gaming forums. Mostly because in other forums you can't just be snarky and hide behind 'its too IC to explain' or just plain lies without being labeled a troll or idiot. It would be great if people could post ideas and their thoughts without having snark and vitriol thrown at them from all sides but hey that is just one of those crazy ideas, unfortunately one that might also require some work to achieve at this point.

Sorry for the derail.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 11, 2014, 12:49:48 AM
First, I wanted to apologize if any of my comments seemed snarky or rude or abrupt. I love Tuluk with a passion and sometimes that passion gets the best of me.

Secondly, the biggest thing I'm missing here is how this will all be acted out IC. I find it hard to believe that you go to sleep one day and wake up the next and boom, your apartment is moved, the streets you were used to walking on are gone and/or re-arranged, and you have no idea where anything is anymore.

I wanted to state I completely understand why this needs to be done and agree that it does need to be done. Today, well yesterday I had a great lesson in seeing how big Tuluk really is... Its freakin HUGE. And a lot of things cause a lot of wasted time. This can cause huge amounts of problems IG as I found out quite quickly. I took a walk through the current Tuluk and discovered to look at everything in detail it would take close to four IG days. That's just way to large.

I applaud the efforts of staff and the great work, time, and effort they are constantly putting forth to make this game that we all love and are passionate for better. They do this as volunteers, never getting paid for their hard work. The only way we really can pay them is to thank them for the work they do. I find I don't do this nearly enough. I'm sorry for that.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 11, 2014, 12:54:36 AM
I think you as the player need to take a step back from you as the PC you are playing --

The way ret-cons like this work is, you roll with it. It's only as awkward as you make it. It'll take some getting used to, but there have been dozens of changes like this over the years, and I can't even really remember them all as a player. Give it a couple of weeks, and you'll be right as rain (or sand?)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: CodeMaster on May 11, 2014, 01:35:22 AM
There is the 'directions' command too, which I sometimes use to slingshot my PC around even in places I'm familiar with.

Kudos to the staff for polishing the game world.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 11, 2014, 01:00:51 PM
I think you as the player need to take a step back from you as the PC you are playing --

The way ret-cons like this work is, you roll with it. It's only as awkward as you make it. It'll take some getting used to, but there have been dozens of changes like this over the years, and I can't even really remember them all as a player. Give it a couple of weeks, and you'll be right as rain (or sand?)

You're right on the many changes made in the past, however I don't recall a single one that was made without some sort of IG situation that caused it to happen. The destruction of the Crater and the ruins was created in an HRPT. This is whole sections gone missing and a apartment building *poof* getting moved. My character will just believe things have always been that way and that's the way it is, even though it lacks cohesion.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: MeTekillot on May 11, 2014, 01:04:46 PM
flash powder
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: manonfire on May 11, 2014, 01:33:33 PM
traps
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 11, 2014, 01:35:38 PM
I think you as the player need to take a step back from you as the PC you are playing --

The way ret-cons like this work is, you roll with it. It's only as awkward as you make it. It'll take some getting used to, but there have been dozens of changes like this over the years, and I can't even really remember them all as a player. Give it a couple of weeks, and you'll be right as rain (or sand?)

You're right on the many changes made in the past, however I don't recall a single one that was made without some sort of IG situation that caused it to happen. The destruction of the Crater and the ruins was created in an HRPT. This is whole sections gone missing and a apartment building *poof* getting moved. My character will just believe things have always been that way and that's the way it is, even though it lacks cohesion.

Dude, it's just a freaking game.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 11, 2014, 02:34:08 PM
flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Ouroboros on May 11, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
I don't have much to say on this really, outside of the fact I think the change is positive and will benefit the game in the long-term. I can understand why some players are feeling the loss of Firestorm harder than others, but in my experience it's simply a result of getting attached to fixtures of the game over years of gameplay. The loss of Trader's in Allanak still annoys me for example, even though I understand that it's for sentimental reasons and overall the game improved from its removal.

Speaking personally, and as objectively as I can, the only part of the tavern changes that I feel was more hindering than beneficial was the removal of the Burrow. I'm fully aware how little use it actually saw, but due to that, it's also the one tavern that I feel could have remained in place safely without impacting gameplay. It didn't serve to splinter the Tuluk pbase, since it was rarely used and never saw any active tavern-sitting. But it enabled occasional and sporadic meetings that were far more appropriately held there, then elsewhere. It was an area that visiting tribals could meet residents without feeling out of place, for the occasional trade or social rp, and even locals would sometimes use it when they desired a meeting place without much traffic and distractions. I actually think I've actively used it with just about every northern character I've had, and in those instances, it added a lot of flavor to the experience. So unlike all other removals, which I think will benefit the game long-term, it's removal to me is a negative. But it's a small enough negative, as small as the positive it offered, that it's not something worth fighting for either.

I look forward to seeing how these changes affect those playing in Tuluk, and I hope that in the long run they'll be as beneficial as I think they will be.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Lizzie on May 11, 2014, 05:49:02 PM
I agree with Ouroboros' sentiments (and sentimentality 8) ). His post sparks a thought - what do people think about this, in addition to the new tavern...

A new firepit, in the Red Sun Commons, with just a nice-looking wood and stone pergola with lattice-sided "walls". Sort of a hybrid pergola/gazebo, which would have to be open in the middle to the sky so that the heat from the firepit's flames have an easy escape. There'd be no NPC, no save-room stuff - but perhaps it might give a mini-boost to people who try to cook there. With a few sturdy polished granite benches, like the old firepit used to have, that could accommodate half a dozen people or 2 half-giants each, and form a circle around the pit. I think it'd be pretty awesome if a place like this could allow half-giants to *sit* at a table-object, since a solid stone bench wouldn't break under a HG's weight (or two, or hey maybe even three).

This would make for a great gathering spot for locals and tribals to meet and do trade. I used to love the firepit in Freil's Rest, I used it far more often than I ever used the Firestorm next door. The Commons seems like a perfect spot to build a new one, which would function the same as the old one did (minus the - what was it that came out en masse after the flooding? Rats? Spiders? Is it even in the docs? It should be if it isn't.).
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 11, 2014, 05:49:35 PM
flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.


A long time ago, in a Ginka far, far away, there was a tavern called Flint's in the centre of a city called Tuluk.

Flint's was the was the bestest tavern ever.  There, you could hobnob with halfling magickers, mantis raiders, hard-nosed templars, half-giants with steel swords and amour, maybe the odd J'Karr or two that wasn't busy spam-sparring and a mul at a table in the back with whom you could arm-wrestle.

One day, the staff decided they didn't want Flint's anymore.  There were a lot of things they didn't want anymore too, but Flint's was my favouritest tavern you see.  They made up some story about a stone mage who casted one too many earthquakes outside, and turned it into a pile of rubble.  (granted, there were many earthquakes casted in the square outside Flint's over the years I'm sure).

Much sad was had.

But things were made better.

Except when the day New Tuluk came, with it's kajillion needless rooms. 

So then again, much sad was had.

The day when Tuluk shrinks once more, is a day we should be happy for.  Change can be good.  Changes via IC are even better.  But Staff?  Staff is bestest - without staff there would be no better, ever.


Thank you staff old and new (and ageless as our Timelord), for being bestest, for all that you do.  If our Den Mother was still around, I'd be half-inclined to suggest we turn that OOC concept of Mother's Day into Staffer's Day..





Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 11, 2014, 06:02:08 PM
flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.

Agreed, but its a lot easier to IC'ly grasp the disappearance of some minerals or whatever flash powder was considered than say an apartment being moved over night because the road no longer exists that it was on. Especially in a city where magick isn't permitted or allowed. I understand the reasoning for this and my character will act like its always been this way since this is supposed to be an OOC change, but it greatly affect IC by things just being gone or moved. That's all i was trying to say. It is a game and its not a big deal really in the realm of all things that could happen. I'm just trying to make a point of how affecting this can be. I'm also concerned for players that don't read the GDB much that might be in Tuluk and I know there have been players in the past like this, I'm not sure if that's the case currently. What will these players think when they wake up to find their apartment just moved and the roads gone? Its going to cause some confusion, and possibly some thoughts of magick being at work for those player's characters.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: manonfire on May 11, 2014, 06:20:26 PM
flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.

Agreed, but its a lot easier to IC'ly grasp the disappearance of some minerals or whatever flash powder was considered than say an apartment being moved over night because the road no longer exists that it was on. Especially in a city where magick isn't permitted or allowed. I understand the reasoning for this and my character will act like its always been this way since this is supposed to be an OOC change, but it greatly affect IC by things just being gone or moved. That's all i was trying to say. It is a game and its not a big deal really in the realm of all things that could happen. I'm just trying to make a point of how affecting this can be. I'm also concerned for players that don't read the GDB much that might be in Tuluk and I know there have been players in the past like this, I'm not sure if that's the case currently. What will these players think when they wake up to find their apartment just moved and the roads gone? Its going to cause some confusion, and possibly some thoughts of magick being at work for those player's characters.

dude what
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 11, 2014, 06:22:06 PM
flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.

Agreed, but its a lot easier to IC'ly grasp the disappearance of some minerals or whatever flash powder was considered than say an apartment being moved over night because the road no longer exists that it was on. Especially in a city where magick isn't permitted or allowed. I understand the reasoning for this and my character will act like its always been this way since this is supposed to be an OOC change, but it greatly affect IC by things just being gone or moved. That's all i was trying to say. It is a game and its not a big deal really in the realm of all things that could happen. I'm just trying to make a point of how affecting this can be. I'm also concerned for players that don't read the GDB much that might be in Tuluk and I know there have been players in the past like this, I'm not sure if that's the case currently. What will these players think when they wake up to find their apartment just moved and the roads gone? Its going to cause some confusion, and possibly some thoughts of magick being at work for those player's characters.

(http://www.xojane.com/files/Screen%20Shot%202012-12-14%20at%2011.18.08%20AM.png)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Hicksville Hoochie on May 11, 2014, 07:22:56 PM
One thing to remember, that I don't believe is being mentioned, (forgive me if it has been and I missed it!) is that the city we codedly walk around in, is not the full city at large. While Tuluk is shrinking in coded rooms, the city itself still remains the massive stretch of land that it is.

When walking along random coded street in whichever city, there may only be a north and south exit, but virtually, what we're looking at is potentially multiple streets, buildings, crowds, etc, all there, but just not for the sake of game coding, and so we can go from a noble's quarter to the other side of the city in a couple of minutes, instead of a couple of hours.

For the things being moved around, such as apartments, shops, artwork, etc - it's not something you might want to look at as having changed. To make things less jarring for your own IC experiences, just consider perhaps, that you're now going down some of those virtual side-roads, while the old, non-virtual ones are no longer the optimal path.

You'll have much less of a headache for doing so, and enjoy yourself a lot more if you don't let something that's ultimately convenient get to you in a bad way.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 11, 2014, 07:32:32 PM
Agreed, but its a lot easier to IC'ly grasp the disappearance of some minerals or whatever flash powder was considered than say an apartment being moved over night because the road no longer exists that it was on. Especially in a city where magick isn't permitted or allowed.  I understand the reasoning for this and my character will act like its always been this way since this is supposed to be an OOC change, but it greatly affect IC by things just being gone or moved. That's all i was trying to say. It is a game and its not a big deal really in the realm of all things that could happen. I'm just trying to make a point of how affecting this can be. I'm also concerned for players that don't read the GDB much that might be in Tuluk and I know there have been players in the past like this, I'm not sure if that's the case currently. What will these players think when they wake up to find their apartment just moved and the roads gone? Its going to cause some confusion, and possibly some thoughts of magick being at work for those player's characters.

If anyone ignores the GDB, the news on the front page of the website, the news section in the game, the map helpfile, the directions helpfile, and the in-game rumor boards...and also chooses to believe that "gee, things moved around, must be magick"...they probably deserve all of that confusion, and all of those unrealistic thoughts of magick being at work.  If nothing else, it'll be good for a laugh.

The same always goes for anyone that logs into the game after any coded change/world change/etc. without paying attention.  We can only ever do so much to inform players when stuff changes, and trying to cater specifically to that (hopefully small) minority of players is a losing proposition.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: X-D on May 12, 2014, 12:47:31 AM
My 2 sids.

First, making Tuluk more compact...great.

Removing taverns...um, not so great. I do not believe that it actually does anything to get people together. If my PC would go to the Tooth...then well, he will, but if the tooth was gone would he choose another tavern...not likely.
The burrow is one at least that I think should have stayed, it had a use...sure, it might not have been used often but then, that was the point to using it.

Besides, some people or PCs avoid crowded taverns, be for IC or OOC (THE SPAM...MY EYES AAARRRGGGHH) Reasons.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: MeTekillot on May 12, 2014, 12:53:17 AM
I, for one, use taverns for target practice.

raise hood
throw spear man east
south
quit ooc Connection problems!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: solera on May 12, 2014, 01:42:20 AM
I agree with Ouroboros' sentiments (and sentimentality 8) ). His post sparks a thought - what do people think about this, in addition to the new tavern...

A new firepit, in the Red Sun Commons,

This would make for a great gathering spot for locals and tribals to meet and do trade. I used to love the firepit in Freil's Rest, I used it far more often than I ever used the Firestorm next door. The Commons seems like a perfect spot to build a new one, which would function the same as the old one did (minus the - what was it that came out en masse after the flooding? Rats? Spiders? Is it even in the docs? It should be if it isn't.).



But not stones to sit on (that's another place) The Firepit had logs! It was opposite the Firestorm doors I think,(?) which was good for the ooc purpose of watching other PC action. I think I'd prefer it more private though this time.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Old Kank on May 13, 2014, 12:06:18 PM
First, making Tuluk more compact...great.

Removing taverns...um, not so great. I do not believe that it actually does anything to get people together.

Exactly.  I love the plan to shrink Tuluk.

I don't understand removing taverns.  Maybe I missed the explanation, but what's the point of taking them out?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 13, 2014, 12:43:09 PM
First, making Tuluk more compact...great.

Removing taverns...um, not so great. I do not believe that it actually does anything to get people together.

Exactly.  I love the plan to shrink Tuluk.

I don't understand removing taverns.  Maybe I missed the explanation, but what's the point of taking them out?

The removal of the Firestorm is an IC event, Staff said so and as someone who played in Tuluk the last few months, I also sorta knew it was before even reading Staff announcement (Just read the IC board in Tuluk, there's been Firestorm news for the last 6+ months).

People arguing that they don't want the Firestorm removed is sorta like saying that you don't want the Gypsy lands changed/removed because it was part of the game for so long IF staff had told us before the HRPT that the gypsy lands would be transformed into a giant parking lot for Volcanozor the Turd.

Tuluk is in DIRE need of changes, I can't remember the last time the playerbase has been so low in that location and I play Tuluki like.. 89% of the time. I love the place but man, it's been hard to find/keep characters to interact with for a while before they disappear/store suddenly and without notice. So any changes is fine by me, really.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Old Kank on May 13, 2014, 01:21:00 PM
The removal of the Firestorm is an IC event, Staff said so and as someone who played in Tuluk the last few months, I also sorta knew it was before even reading Staff announcement (Just read the IC board in Tuluk, there's been Firestorm news for the last 6+ months).

I don't play in Tuluk.  I have no clue what's happening there.  So, a follow-up question:  IC events being driven by staff, or players?

Quote from: Nyr's Staff Announcement post
From Nyr:  Taverns

While we do not normally discuss things that touch on the in-character world, in this case, an exception is being made because it involves some IC stuff mixed with some OOC decisions...

(snip!)

This will hopefully solve a few issues we've seen that we feel are worth taking a look at.

That statement, the removal of the Burrow and the Punch, and the fact that it was raised on the GDB instead of being handled completely in-game makes it seem like there's some staff-driven OOC motivation leading to the IC action, and if that's the case, that's fine, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what could warrant throwing away a piece of the game's history.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 13, 2014, 01:33:54 PM
I don't play in Tuluk.  I have no clue what's happening there.  So, a follow-up question:  IC events being driven by staff, or players?

Well, that's very hard for me to say since even though I've played a lot lately in Tuluk, I'm not in some deep circle that would know many secrets.

Without revealing too much IC stuff, there's been a lot of "bad stuff" happening in the Firestorm in the last few months (most of it player-drive from what I can tell) that someone or something shutting it down doesn't come to a surprise to me.

My feeling says that it's probably an OOC decision but made easy to explain due to a lot of IC reasons regarding the Firestorm.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 13, 2014, 01:37:12 PM
The removal of the Firestorm is an IC event, Staff said so and as someone who played in Tuluk the last few months, I also sorta knew it was before even reading Staff announcement (Just read the IC board in Tuluk, there's been Firestorm news for the last 6+ months).

I don't play in Tuluk.  I have no clue what's happening there.  So, a follow-up question:  IC events being driven by staff, or players?

Staff and players both contribute to plots.  Sometimes players develop things that staff assist.  Sometimes players assist in things that staff create.  In the end, it doesn't matter too much except to people that won't be satisfied regardless of what staff or players do.

Quote
Quote from: Nyr's Staff Announcement post
From Nyr:  Taverns

While we do not normally discuss things that touch on the in-character world, in this case, an exception is being made because it involves some IC stuff mixed with some OOC decisions...

The OOC decisions:


Quote
(snip!)

This will hopefully solve a few issues we've seen that we feel are worth taking a look at.

Under each tavern there was something that indicated what those issues were.


Quote
That statement, and the fact that it was raised on the GDB instead of being handled completely in-game makes it seem like there's some staff-driven OOC motivation leading to the IC action, and if that's the case, that's fine

Sometimes things are done for more than one reason.  This was one of those times.  That's about it.

Plus, if you did play in Tuluk, you'd have the opportunity to see what we are doing with the new site and what is going on behind the scenes even if you don't like what is happening as a player.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Bogre on May 13, 2014, 01:53:00 PM
The Red Sun Commons always seemed much much blander to me than Freil's Rest. In Freils you have the amphitheater, murals, shops, gardens, windy little passageways - the RSC is just something people traverse to get between other places.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Twilight on May 13, 2014, 02:46:30 PM
Technically, RSC is supposed to be where most stuff gets crafted in Tuluk, even GMH goods, if I remember correctly.

It is an area of background vs. implementation disconnect, because the infrastructure (buildings like warehouses/tents, NPCs other than 1 now (used to be more like the wood seller/buyer)) to have PCs craft in the RSC was never really added, nevermind the merchant houses crafting there (unless that was a reference to them buying from other crafters rather than using their own?), the raw goods seller in Freils sells as much or more as the guy in RSC, and so a lot should be happening in RSC, it just doesn't seem like it does in game.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 13, 2014, 03:58:19 PM
Maybe RSC needs to be readjusted too, then, to become the place it is supposed to be. Friel's wouldn't have to change, but since that's local-only access (I assume it is), the RSC could be enhanced greatly.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 13, 2014, 04:08:15 PM
Where do you people live? I want to come to your homes and try persuasion and failing that violence.
Disturbing.

I wish they would move the stables a bit closer to the middle-class tavern.

I always felt that the stables being so close to the Sanc had a lot to do with why it got so highly populated.

You come into town, you look in the tavern, see everyone there, you might as well join them, it is two squares from the stables anyways. Easy.

Would we build the most fancy tavern in town right next to the smelly stables anyways?

Kind of makes more sense to move it.

It's not on the high-level map, but the stables and wagonyard got moved to the Southwest corner of the Red Sun Commons.   The nearest pub to the stables will be the Tooth.

Oh, you so sexy. So so sexy.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 13, 2014, 04:36:13 PM
Technically, RSC is supposed to be where most stuff gets crafted in Tuluk, even GMH goods, if I remember correctly.

You're right.

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Red%20Sun%20Commons
The Red Sun Commons is the largest supplier of raw goods ready for market in the city of Tuluk. A very large percentage of the city's crafted goods (including those by the Great Merchant Houses) are created in this crafter's district, which then transports the raw goods to the market districts of the region. The Commons also supplies a smaller percent of the arts and crafts created in Tuluk, coming in a distant second to the Bardic Circle. The Red Sun Commons is the lifeblood of Freil's Rest and (to a lesser extent) the Tribal Market, but is highly dependent on the Warrens for workers, the Vineyards for water, and areas beyond the Scaien which supply raw materials and food.

Quote
It is an area of background vs. implementation disconnect, because the infrastructure (buildings like warehouses/tents, NPCs other than 1 now (used to be more like the wood seller/buyer)) to have PCs craft in the RSC was never really added

However, I don't think it was ever something intended for PCs to do in a specific way.  The area does have all of that and more, virtually; it is mentioned in the descriptions.  Unless you're saying that there should be areas here intended for public crafting (arguably the whole place is for that, but I imagine you might be looking for something like a coded tent or something), I'm not sure what you are looking for exactly.  A place focused on a specific sort of roleplay?  Fair enough, that can be fleshed out in some fashion moreso than indicated by descriptions.

Quote
nevermind the merchant houses crafting there (unless that was a reference to them buying from other crafters rather than using their own?),

Largely virtual.  Not everything in a history/descriptive regional helpfile is coded, for what it's worth.

Quote
the raw goods seller in Freils sells as much or more as the guy in RSC, and so a lot should be happening in RSC, it just doesn't seem like it does in game.

I suppose it depends on what you are looking to do.  If you have a concept that relies on crafting, I would suggest joining a merchant House.  If you want to avoid merchant houses, I would suggest partnering up with someone to get you raw materials.  If you want to avoid other PCs for that purpose and wish to rely on shops entirely, that seems like a largely single-player gaming experience, but that still can be pursued to some extent (as you have pointed out, there are NPCs that sell raw goods).

Anyway, the RSC is going to get more stuff in it, regardless, because we are moving some coded things that used to be in the Old Quarter.  A warehouse, for instance.  A certain shop way out in the boondocks.  An apartment complex (more than likely).  It's a sprawl of commerce and activity virtually and these changes should make that seem at least a little more apparent in an IC and coded way.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: palomar on May 13, 2014, 05:28:35 PM
Anyway, the RSC is going to get more stuff in it, regardless, because we are moving some coded things that used to be in the Old Quarter.  A warehouse, for instance.  A certain shop way out in the boondocks.  An apartment complex (more than likely).  It's a sprawl of commerce and activity virtually and these changes should make that seem at least a little more apparent in an IC and coded way.

That's cool. With the area being more commercial and way less residential, I think the apartment complex would fit better off Dusk Road (south east of the Byn compound, east of the Tenneshi barracks) or Road of Merchants than in the actual RSC. Perhaps that'd still technically be the RSC, I dunno.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Delirium on May 13, 2014, 05:58:04 PM
A communal crafting area in the RSC might be neat, much like people occasionally hang out at the Freil's Firepit used to hang out at the Freil's Firepit.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 13, 2014, 05:59:08 PM
A communal crafting area in the RSC might be neat
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Lizzie on May 13, 2014, 07:03:03 PM
Back in reply #134 I suggested a communal firepit like the one we had next to the Firestorm, but the only response to that was one person saying they'd rather have it a more private area.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: solera on May 14, 2014, 01:46:22 AM
Back in reply #134 I suggested a communal firepit like the one we had next to the Firestorm, but the only response to that was one person saying they'd rather have it a more private area.


Sorry Lizzie , I was just musing on the possibilities. I liked it how it was, and was sad when I popped in Tuluk one time and it had gone.
Some people like privacy, some don't.
 
I'm sure it had logs, but I have no, um logs, from that time to prove it.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Lizzie on May 14, 2014, 06:19:40 AM
Could've been logs, and it really doesn't matter what they were. They're gone. The fact that the firepit existed as a communal outdoor gathering spot, a non-bar-area, is what I was trying to emphasize. And I added in the idea that half-giants would be codedly able to sit in it "table-talk style".
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 14, 2014, 08:56:44 AM
They were logs.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Harmless on May 14, 2014, 10:05:52 AM
The firestorm pub has a lot of history that nobody ever shared with any of my PCs. I therefore agree fully with the staff's changes and have no qualms with it.

This helps make a larger point. If there is history in game that never gets mentioned or shared except within a group of elite old timers or one house or something, does it matter? The answer is no. Not with a population of illiterates. It makes no sense for Tuluk to care about the pub as more than just a Kadian bar. To anybody but Kadians its history is many many generations old. Bars irl rarely last more than a few generations.

History is lost and meant to be so. Moreover Nyr is hinting that all the important stuff will be preserved and that we should trust the staff on this one. I for one fully trust them here.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Harmless on May 14, 2014, 10:18:15 AM
It's sort of a hobby for a lot of the jaded oldbies to feel persecuted by staff no matter what is going on. I tend to ignore it, to be honest. If this didn't happen, they'd complain about stagnation and Tuluk being too big, if it does happen, it's scary-bad change and Tuluk is too shrunken.

I can't see anything remotely bad in the coming change. I'd advise you have the new bar sell milk, however, as I think the Firestorm was the only place to get it in Tuluk.  :)

qft
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 14, 2014, 10:40:42 AM
Only history any of my characters know about the Firestorm is the history of how yummy its booze is. I hope that doesn't get lost.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Suhuy on May 14, 2014, 01:22:09 PM
Quote from: Malken
Tuluk is in DIRE need of changes, I can't remember the last time the playerbase has been so low in that location and I play Tuluki like.. 89% of the time. I love the place but man, it's been hard to find/keep characters to interact with for a while before they disappear/store suddenly and without notice. So any changes is fine by me, really.

What if, however, it's the nonstop changes that have resulted in a low playerbase? I don't remember the last time Tuluk wasn't changing. And while it could be argued that perpetual change is part of Tuluk's central theme, it's worth considering the possibility that leaving the city be for a while and letting it run as is might be a greater remedy than to keep slicing and dicing it into new and different forms over the years.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 14, 2014, 01:45:53 PM
Quote from: Malken
Tuluk is in DIRE need of changes, I can't remember the last time the playerbase has been so low in that location and I play Tuluki like.. 89% of the time. I love the place but man, it's been hard to find/keep characters to interact with for a while before they disappear/store suddenly and without notice. So any changes is fine by me, really.

What if, however, it's the nonstop changes that have resulted in a low playerbase? I don't remember the last time Tuluk wasn't changing. And while it could be argued that perpetual change is part of Tuluk's central theme, it's worth considering the possibility that leaving the city be for a while and letting it run as is might be a greater remedy than to keep slicing and dicing it into new and different forms over the years.

For what it's worth, leaving the city be in the state it was in was an untenable position for staff and an annoying position for the playerbase.  And we've already written about each point you've brought up here.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 14, 2014, 02:20:14 PM
Specifically:

What if, however, it's the nonstop changes that have resulted in a low playerbase?

Actually, I don't see where I've mentioned this one here, but people play where they want to play, and there are a lot of reasons for people to choose which places they play or what roles to play when they play there.  The fact that Tuluk has been in a stated period of internal flux absolutely could be a contributing factor.  Rather than handwave a ton of OOC changes and say "this is the way Tuluk is now," we've been rolling out things through planned plots that involve the players that have roles there (and more besides).  I can understand a perspective of not wanting to get involved in something that might cause your concept to be altered, your character to be (gasp) killed, or your character's way of life to be forcibly changed (though I don't really agree with it).

I wouldn't worry about it.  Players play where they want to play.  It'll all be fine eventually, whatever "it" is (not referring solely to this scenario, but any).

Quote
And while it could be argued that perpetual change is part of Tuluk's central theme,

It definitely isn't, and I don't think it could be argued that this is anything close to Tuluk's central theme.

Quote
it's worth considering the possibility that leaving the city be for a while and letting it run as is might be a greater remedy than to keep slicing and dicing it into new and different forms over the years.

That is the end goal.  To get there we are having to get rid of some things that were unnecessarily complicated, undocumented, or disliked from a staffing perspective. 
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 14, 2014, 04:57:18 PM
Walking distance between buildings isn't what makes Tuluk the "less populated" area of the game.

It is a matter of the overall theme of Tuluk in general.

I won't get too IC, but there was something in Tuluk that may or may not still exist (I believe it doesn't anymore) that made Tuluk almost impossible in terms of playing a criminal that lived there.

I don't mean the "criminals" that actually work with the private sanctioning of the Templarate. Those aren't criminals. Those are just Templar agents who happen to do criminal-like things.

You almost couldn't exist in Tuluk as a true criminal. You would be found out and disappeared almost instantly and there was no place you could hide, especially after UnderTuluk went away. The vets know what I'm talking about. If you don't, well, maybe the staff will talk about that one day.

So, everyone who wanted to play a true criminal learned quickly to play not-in-Tuluk.

That wipes out one group of people.

You ever play a Legion soldier in Tuluk? How much crime did you actually run around stopping? How many criminals not working for/protected by the Templarate did you actually have to track down through mundane means and deal with?

Even if you found them, what did you do with them? You reported them/escorted them to a Templar to be dealt with "quietly", because taking care of them through open violence was almost unheard of in Tuluk.

So, everyone who wanted to play a true hardcore soldier type that snuffed out illegal criminals and what not...played in Allanak.

There goes another group.

You ever play a T'zai Byn mercenary in Tuluk? Where did you do your brawling? Where did you get nasty and raunchy and gritty in Tuluk? The Sanctuary? Nope. You went to The Tooth, where you might be lucky to find a little bit of interaction, and even if you did want to start a brawl there or be nasty and gruff and horrible in general....you almost always got reported for it, for being "un-Tuluki".

So if you wanted to play a T'zai Byn mercenary, you played in Allanak. (Maybe fixed by the Tuluki rearrangement and tavern guards for the Sanctuary/additions to The Tooth and the new middle-class tavern.)

There goes a third group comprised of a lot of new players who might have otherwise learned to love Tuluk.

You know who played in Tuluk? Merchants, bards, and hunters.

You know who played in Allanak? All of the roles I mentioned above that don't/didn't play in Tuluk, plus merchants and hunters. Not so many "bards".

It seems like basic math to me. When your design naturally limits the number of people who will be interested, less people will be interested.

Just some thoughts from my own personal experiences with Tuluk and the game world in general. I'm open to admitting I could be wrong about some of my ideas/opinions, as they are directly influenced by my personal playing experience and I'm not on staff.

I do think some of the more recent changes are going to get "real" criminals back into Tuluk, plus the "artists" who work for the Templarate. This will attract back the soldiers who want to actually stop crime. Because crime will actually exist again. I think this alone is going to do wonders for making Tuluk more attractive to a lot of people, myself included.

I'm also seeing a "rougher" Tuluk slowly coming into play, and I think that is going to help Tuluk's numbers a lot.

In general, I think the direction Tuluk is currently going is going to fix a lot of the above issues. Let's just give it some time.


Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 14, 2014, 05:04:25 PM
I think a lot of your postulations are based on past experiences that are vague and grey area. I had a criminal PC in the last year or so in Tuluk and found it most agreeable.

Saying "Templar Sanctioned Crime" isn't crime is just your opinion. If you're allowed to murder people, rob people, and beat people to an inch of their life legitimately...

One could argue that it isn't crime if it isn't against the law, but culturally speaking, I would be afraid of a place that sanctioned murder, thievery, and brutal intimidation tactics. Would you want to travel to that country? Sort of reminds me of Juarez.

I played a long lived Legion Sergeant in Tuluk, and I spent plenty of time chasing around criminals and rogue magickers. Most of the 'criminal element' were Southerners or people not registered with the State, that had to be intimidated into joining the ranks of Artist, or be disappeared.

Taking care of things with open violence, while it does happen in Allanak, is more of the territory of Templars. Most Sergeants and even Lieutenants report, report, report. They can and have used open violence, but i've seen that more as the territory of Templars, in both city-states.

I played a long lived Byn Sergeant as well. Tuluk isn't the grittiest, but you can make it gritty in the Tooth without fear of losing face or being made fun of. People who wore silk and look prim and proper, I still see getting made fun of in the Tooth.

Basically, I think a lot of this is experiential opinion. Some people have experienced what you claim isn't possible in Tuluk -- So I question the validity of the argument stating "It's the overall theme of Tuluk in general".
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 14, 2014, 05:07:58 PM
Then what do you believe the issue is?

I'm willing to admit those are from my own personal experiences. In my own experiences, I have found it to be completely true.

I appreciate you had different experiences.

Zero sarcasm, I'm truly interested to see what you believe the problem is. If your experiences were so much different from mine, you probably have some pretty good ideas on "other" things I have never even considered.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Is Friday on May 14, 2014, 05:13:08 PM
From my own experiences, I generally agree with D-Man on this one. I know that Reiloth obviously isn't a liar, but I think his experience is more the exception than the rule. D-Man's sentiments are probably closer to the common experience in Tuluk.

Tuluk is hard, man.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 14, 2014, 05:15:49 PM
I'm not sure there is an issue. I think it's mostly personal preference.

I think Allanak is the favorite flavor of people who play ArmageddonMUD. It accomplishes much of the setting/roles in society/RP surrounding Zalanthas quite well. Totalitarian rule, Templars who wield magick, Gemmed Magickers who are their slaves, disparaging differences between commoners and Nobles, Arena where bloodsport is encouraged, etc.

Tuluk is the less popular counterpart -- It offers a different spin on the same setting, and because it is a different spin, will not appeal to the same people necessarily who really like what Allanak has to offer. Similarly, the people who like the setting of Tuluk may not be in love with what Allanak has to offer. I certainly wasn't for several years, while playing the game.

Different strokes, for different folks. I think we sometimes strive to find what is 'broken' about an area or aspect of the game because we do not enjoy it, and cannot sometimes realize that perhaps we may never enjoy that area or aspect of the game, despite any changes/fixes/perceived fixes. We will dictate that our experience proves the area is broken -- But all that it proves is our preferences.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 14, 2014, 05:20:37 PM
I'm not sure there is an issue.

Tuluk is the less popular counterpart.

Tuluk being the less popular counterpart and thus being less populated is the exact issue we are talking about.

Now, if you don't think that is an issue, we will just have to agree to disagree.

But my entire list of "things" was focused on reasons why "Tuluk is the less popular counterpart".
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Is Friday on May 14, 2014, 05:23:53 PM
Call me crazy, while I can enjoy most areas of the game for what they are, Tuluk has always been an elusive creature for me. I think that is why I consider it broken. I just can't enjoy it, except in rare circumstances.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 14, 2014, 05:25:05 PM
Why does it need to be as popular? We have a finite amount of players, and we cannot possibly have an even spread among all of the areas of the game.

With that same logic, why is the Tablelands not as popular as Allanak? Or Luir's Outpost?

Each area of the game fills a certain niche, and not all of them are equally populated.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Is Friday on May 14, 2014, 05:26:33 PM
It needs to be "populated" enough to "work". Tuluk often times just have a bunch of nobles staring at each other while indie hunters/crafters muck around in the apartments. That's not a working society, bro.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 14, 2014, 05:27:30 PM
It needs to be "populated" enough to "work". Tuluk often times just have a bunch of nobles staring at each other while indie hunters/crafters muck around in the apartments. That's not a working society, bro.

I don't think that's actually the case. I think that's speculation from afar -- I've recently seen more active Templars, Nobles, and their subjects in Tuluk since 2006. I think it's easy to say 'this is the way it is' if you do not actually play there.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 14, 2014, 05:27:50 PM
Why does it need to be as popular? We have a finite amount of players, and we cannot possibly have an even spread among all of the areas of the game.

With that same logic, why is the Tablelands not as popular as Allanak? Or Luir's Outpost?

Each area of the game fills a certain niche, and not all of them are equally populated.

I understand your sentiment but I was hoping for other people to give ideas on how to make Tuluk more populated.

I am fine with you thinking Tuluk doesn't need to be more appealing. I just disagree with you.

With that being said, I just don't think there is any reason for us to continue the conversation, because I can't think of anything else to say. We simply disagree with each other.



Is there anyone else out there who might shine some light on why they think Tuluk is less populated and provide possible solutions I haven't considered?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Is Friday on May 14, 2014, 05:32:50 PM
It needs to be "populated" enough to "work". Tuluk often times just have a bunch of nobles staring at each other while indie hunters/crafters muck around in the apartments. That's not a working society, bro.

I don't think that's actually the case. I think that's speculation from afar -- I've recently seen more active Templars, Nobles, and their subjects in Tuluk since 2006. I think it's easy to say 'this is the way it is' if you do not actually play there.
It's not speculation from afar.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Cutthroat on May 14, 2014, 05:42:03 PM
Ah, is this yet another thread where we try to prove that the plural of anecdote is indeed data?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Narf on May 14, 2014, 06:00:21 PM
Saying "Templar Sanctioned Crime" isn't crime is just your opinion. If you're allowed to murder people, rob people, and beat people to an inch of their life legitimately...


Keep in mind that people choose where to play based on their opinions. In this particular matter, opinions actually count for a lot more than facts.

I happen to come to practically identical conclusions of Desertman. As a result I never play characters with a criminal bent in Tuluk (or anyone that might develop a criminal bent).

I think you'll find that the opinion that crime is overly difficult in Tuluk is fairly widespread. It would be a simple hypothesis to validate too, as you'd simply need to count of criminal PCs in Tuluk versus criminal PCs in Allanak. Correct for the population difference, and compare. If Desertman is right, the criminal PC population of Alanak will probably be much larger than that of Tuluk, even after correcting for population differences.

I suspect that's exactly what you'd find.

You could do the same thing for all the other professions he mentioned (except Byn, there's IC reasons that are probably widely known why you wouldn't see as many Byn in the north). Gritty and poor PCs, Legionaires, rogue magic users, etc...

Or an even easier experiment: anonymous survey.

Keeping it anonymous and off the boards will prevent the usual avalanche effect of location-bashing that tends to feed on itself, and allows much more focused questions.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 14, 2014, 07:44:59 PM
Is there anyone else out there who might shine some light on why they think Tuluk is less populated and provide possible solutions I haven't considered?

People play where they want to play, the game is largely cyclical in terms of playerbase focus and has been for the entirety of its existence, there was a war in which the T'zai Byn sorta got on one side of things and only recently got re-allowed back in Tuluk, crackdown on citizens from opposing cities plus the aforementioned means a seemingly larger playerbase in Allanak, gemmers are more noticed in Allanak and are openly allowed so that provides an avenue for play that isn't present in Tuluk, Tuluki bardic roles are absolutely open for play but not pushed that much since players are allowed to join IC (and at the same time, active bardic roles involved in the machinations of politics and the Tuluki playerbase liven up the experience there), players are worried that if they play in Tuluk in a time of stated upheaval that they might lose their characters (gasp), some players hate Nyr and think not playing in Tuluk will annoy Nyr (lol), things are changing often enough that perhaps this discourages some players from playing there, players think that saying over and over that Tuluk has a low playerbase makes it true all of the time even though at this very moment the logged-in playerbase is evenly split between both city-states (16 in one, 18 in the other), the people that aren't fans of Tuluk tend to be more vocal than people that are either neutral or like it and therefore their views are weighted correspondingly higher in the eyes of the average observer, or maybe it's gith defilers.

Pick one or all of them.  It doesn't really matter.  Possible solutions:  stop making it a problem to fix, and play the game where you want to play it, eventually everything will work itself out.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Is Friday on May 14, 2014, 07:47:41 PM
some players hate Nyr and think not playing in Tuluk will annoy Nyr (lol)
Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Symphony on May 14, 2014, 08:05:52 PM
Is there anyone else out there who might shine some light on why they think Tuluk is less populated and provide possible solutions I haven't considered?
Pick one or all of them.  It doesn't really matter.  Possible solutions:  stop making it a problem to fix, and play the game where you want to play it, eventually everything will work itself out.

This, Is Friday, is QFT.

Have good day!  :D


- Symph


[Edited to Add] You folks make me laugh. Firestorm, firestorm, firestorm! Please, keep going, every day I find more ludicrously entertaining "reasons" and have a running tally.

[Edited to Also Add] How about, for once, saying THANK YOU instead of resorting immediately to the incomprehensible whining that -appears- is the purpose of this thread.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: valeria on May 14, 2014, 08:17:38 PM
Most of the thank-yous occurred on pages 1 and 2.  Usually by page 3 or so, any given thread devolves into pickiness.

I love that people care about these things so much, though.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Symphony on May 14, 2014, 08:18:32 PM
I love that people care about these things so much, though.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Bogre on May 14, 2014, 08:33:14 PM
Why does it need to be as popular? We have a finite amount of players, and we cannot possibly have an even spread among all of the areas of the game.


Because the other major population center needs to have more than 0 characters visible in the city when there are 62 players online.

You need a good place to play different characters, one that is full and vibrant to give contrast and conflict to the other side, so that things like 'war' and 'skirmishes' become meaningful. You need a place where players can rotate characters too, distancing themselves from previous IC circumstances. Some place where you can send spies to.

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 15, 2014, 10:41:42 AM
Pick one or all of them.  It doesn't really matter.  Possible solutions:  stop making it a problem to fix, and play the game where you want to play it, eventually everything will work itself out.

I can't help but read this and picture Nyr doing this....

(http://www.blackborder.com/q/sites/default/files/images/these%20aren't%20the%20droids%20you're%20looking%20for.jpg)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dakota on May 15, 2014, 05:13:39 PM
While I don't really mind these changes (only the -way- they have happened), it gives me hope that one day Tuluks criminal element will be fleshed out (like D-man said, it's not -really- about Shadow Artists...).

Tuluk reminds me (from its Documents and how its run) of any major city in the Soviet Union from 1970-1980. Everything was controlled by the state. Everyone had to join the Communist Party or be doomed. People often disappeared. Neighbors reported on neighbors yet everyone was all smiles with propaganda under the Red Star. Subtly was the way of life. If you spoke too loud about the wrong thing, you could get reported and bad things would happen. This was -real life-.

But know this. In that environment, criminals and subversive elements WITHIN THE SYSTEM did live in the cracks and shadows and had -zero- to do with the state or the party members.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Ender on May 16, 2014, 04:16:06 PM
Surely the closing of the Firestorm is just a plot hook to have a Goonies-esque adventure, downhill ski race, and/or a break dance competition to raise the money to save the youth center... err I mean Firestorms from the evil land developlers.. err I mean Imms.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: HavokBlue on May 16, 2014, 04:27:35 PM
Join the Levies, a fun-loving band of goofballs and misfits, as they come together to travel the perilous tunnels of Undertuluk to find the lost treasure of Precentor Kul and buy back their favorite tavern from the evil Qynar authority!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Lizzie on May 16, 2014, 04:55:37 PM
Join the Levies, a fun-loving band of goofballs and misfits, as they come together to travel the perilous tunnels of Undertuluk to find the lost treasure of Precentor Kul and buy back their favorite tavern from the evil Qynar authority!

You know, that would actually be a fun adventure.

Except...

there's no more Undertuluk

#stillbitter
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: ShaLeah on May 16, 2014, 04:59:28 PM
Surely the closing of the Firestorm is just a plot hook to have a Goonies-esque adventure, downhill ski race, and/or a break dance competition to raise the money to save the youth center... err I mean Firestorms from the evil land developlers.. err I mean Imms.

Way to fucking ruin a plot Ender!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 19, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
We're pushing this change back to tomorrow.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dakota on May 19, 2014, 02:46:04 PM
What time will this happen roughly and will their be much (if any) down time?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 19, 2014, 03:03:39 PM
What time will this happen roughly and will their be much (if any) down time?

Tuesday, May 20, with minimal (if any) downtime.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 19, 2014, 03:33:41 PM
Oh, quick question.  Will the cotton fields be in a safe place within the walls?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 19, 2014, 03:55:23 PM
The cotton fields are where they've always been.  That top level map provided by Tiernan does not show the cotton fields or any of the Barrens because that is not related to the city-state remapping.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 19, 2014, 03:58:40 PM
Stupid question but to check if I understand, will there be some places where grebbers can greb safely?  Those Barrerns?  For some reason, I have read those barrerns are the Old Quarter/City.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 19, 2014, 04:01:32 PM
will there be some places where grebbers can greb safe fully?

Are we still talking about Armageddon here?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 19, 2014, 04:06:04 PM
I can spell, I corrected it.  Or is it something else?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 19, 2014, 04:10:19 PM
Yeah. I find the idea of there being some safe spot to greb pretty ridiculous. Am I also understanding you right in that the cotton fields are fully enclosed in the walls? Tuluk just sounds codedly easier the more I learn about it.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 19, 2014, 04:10:44 PM
I can spell, I corrected it.  Or is it something else?

He's saying that you're not supposed to feel safe anywhere on Armageddon, but apparently he's never played in or around Tuluk, amirite ladies/
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 19, 2014, 04:18:11 PM
Oh, duh.  It seems that he never played Tuluk. ;)

Yeah. I find the idea of there being some safe spot to greb pretty ridiculous. Am I also understanding you right in that the cotton fields are fully enclosed in the walls? Tuluk just sounds codedly easier the more I learn about it.

It is.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 19, 2014, 10:41:31 PM
Stupid question but to check if I understand, will there be some places where grebbers can greb safely?  Those Barrerns?  For some reason, I have read those barrerns are the Old Quarter/City.

If we have a ton of northern players that are overly abusing the abiity to forage for certain stuff inside the city, then we can fix that.  You shouldn't be able to greb safely.  Greb cotton or clay or shit, sure.  If you're saying foraging for generic crap inside the city, bug the room.  We don't want that in Tuluk or necessarily inside the vast region that is the enclosed walls of Tuluk--it's already rumored to be an 'easy' place to play, and that rumor is something we hope to slightly adjust right alongside others.

Easy to navigate, yes.  Easy to scrape by a living without leaving the city or interacting with any other players or without having some sort of skill like you would in the rest of Zalanthas, no.

Yeah. I find the idea of there being some safe spot to greb pretty ridiculous. Am I also understanding you right in that the cotton fields are fully enclosed in the walls? Tuluk just sounds codedly easier the more I learn about it.

Well yeah, actually.  The cotton fields are actually fields owned by the city, and unlike Allanak they enclose their farming areas inside the walls.

The advantage to the PC:  wow, much safe, very ease.
The disadvantage to the PC:  wow, such bore, very lame.

If you want to play a super safe PC, stick with the dung selling, the clay digging, or the cotton picking.  You'll also be sticking with a poor PC.  Good luck (and if you do that, more power to you!).

(yes, we try to balance all jobs/IC work that way; the more dangerous it is, the more profitable it might be, and vice versa)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 19, 2014, 11:28:56 PM
If you want to make it a little harder for Tuluki to get mega rich pretty easily, I'd propose pushing the salt licks like 10 rooms east in the middle of cilops infested zombie-bahamets. That'd help greatly.

That or make the room it's in part of the bahamet patrolling cycle.

(I can't really think of anything you can greb easily from the inside of the city and that is worth something, so that's cool)

Also, poor PCs are awesome!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Harmless on May 20, 2014, 01:18:27 AM
I had often wondered how it'd be if salt foraging was revamped entirely. Instead of just a static room, which I don't think is really a fix, then some system where the wind or trampling bahamets or foraging herds of animals reveals tiny patches of salt in the grasslands or even in other areas occasionally, so that you can't always count on the same spot to go to.

Even if it was moved 10 rooms to the east like Malken proposes, then all it takes is for one PC to check that it's clear, or clear it, or lure away dangerous animals from it and then make it safe to spam forage enough salt to make hundreds of coins in a day.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 01:23:44 AM
To anyone who tells me that this spot can still be dangerous and is dangerous, I'd be very interested if Nyr could tell us when's the last time someone died on that spot, I bet it's very rare.

I know I have -never- had any trouble there myself (no raiding, no mugging.. Maybe a roaming bahamet or two..), and I must have logged 100000000 hours of foraging. (urgh, my life!)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 20, 2014, 01:24:19 AM
Unless dangerous creatures were to regularly patrol that area...
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Calavera on May 20, 2014, 04:19:52 AM
The environment around Tuluk and its relative danger levels vs. its relative profitability levels is a ratio I am paying personal attention to at the moment.

:)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bracken on May 20, 2014, 05:04:46 AM
Stupid question but to check if I understand, will there be some places where grebbers can greb safely?  Those Barrerns?  For some reason, I have read those barrerns are the Old Quarter/City.

If we have a ton of northern players that are overly abusing the abiity to forage for certain stuff inside the city, then we can fix that. You shouldn't be able to greb safely.  Greb cotton or clay or shit, sure.  If you're saying foraging for generic crap inside the city, bug the room.  We don't want that in Tuluk or necessarily inside the vast region that is the enclosed walls of Tuluk--it's already rumored to be an 'easy' place to play, and that rumor is something we hope to slightly adjust right alongside others.

Easy to navigate, yes.  Easy to scrape by a living without leaving the city or interacting with any other players or without having some sort of skill like you would in the rest of Zalanthas, no.




I have a bad feeling about this.


The Barrens are safe from wandering livestock apart from elves.
They are where I fell in love with this game. My PC spent his days safely grebbing for basics (and by night having a cookup at the Firepits.
There is a type of new player that likes to do these sort of things to their hearts content, without interacting with scary PC's. When I've got PC's playing in the north, I still like to chill out there without worrying about the "Don't go out the gates alone" rule.

This isn't what you were talking about is it, Nyr?

And if they haven't been through the wash already, please don't Shrink them!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dakota on May 20, 2014, 05:36:14 AM
Playing a poor Tuluki that RP's racial and social stereotypes and a real Warrener is Tuluk hard-mode.

I have too much experience in Tuluk. Maybe I should send in notes / suggestions from a players POV... (Excluding the Warrens bc I think everyone knows they need work).
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Lizzie on May 20, 2014, 07:33:37 AM
The part of Tuluk people are talking about, Nyr, is the area east of the Chaitra gate and west of the Plains gate. Everything between the two is forageable, though the difficulty level and what you'll actually find is somewhat limited. If you're a crafter character foraging for his own materials though, it's a solid place to find "starter crafting" materials. This area includes a sub-area, that actually has some pretty good finds, but involves a risk of falling and of course the inconvenience of having to be reasonably unencumbered in order to climb back out again. This entire area, and its sub-area, are free of animals, with the rare occasion of when someone leads something through the plains gate.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 08:31:20 AM
Yeah, it's that area.  Thanks Lizzie.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 08:38:28 AM
The Barrens are safe from wandering livestock apart from elves.

No problem with this part.

Quote
My PC spent his days safely grebbing for basics

This is where there's an issue.  Safely grebbing.

Quote
There is a type of new player that likes to do these sort of things to their hearts content, without interacting with scary PC's. When I've got PC's playing in the north, I still like to chill out there without worrying about the "Don't go out the gates alone" rule.

And you can absolutely chill out there. But getting raw crafting materials without effort or risk seems a little on the unrealistically unZalanthan side of cheesy, and that's one of the things we're going to review...eventually.

Quote
And if they haven't been through the wash already, please don't Shrink them!

That's not at all part of the plan, so no need to worry!

The part of Tuluk people are talking about, Nyr, is the area east of the Chaitra gate and west of the Plains gate. Everything between the two is forageable, though the difficulty level and what you'll actually find is somewhat limited. If you're a crafter character foraging for his own materials though, it's a solid place to find "starter crafting" materials. This area includes a sub-area, that actually has some pretty good finds, but involves a risk of falling and of course the inconvenience of having to be reasonably unencumbered in order to climb back out again. This entire area, and its sub-area, are free of animals, with the rare occasion of when someone leads something through the plains gate.

I'm familiar.  I had forgotten it was an easy-forage safe zone, so we'll review that part of it eventually (either the difficulty, the results, or the risks).
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: chuci on May 20, 2014, 08:41:26 AM
Just put a few critters down there that bite.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Delusion on May 20, 2014, 09:03:36 AM
The part of Tuluk people are talking about, Nyr, is the area east of the Chaitra gate and west of the Plains gate. Everything between the two is forageable, though the difficulty level and what you'll actually find is somewhat limited. If you're a crafter character foraging for his own materials though, it's a solid place to find "starter crafting" materials. This area includes a sub-area, that actually has some pretty good finds, but involves a risk of falling and of course the inconvenience of having to be reasonably unencumbered in order to climb back out again. This entire area, and its sub-area, are free of animals, with the rare occasion of when someone leads something through the plains gate.

I'm familiar.  I had forgotten it was an easy-forage safe zone, so we'll review that part of it eventually (either the difficulty, the results, or the risks).

The area you have to climb to is also, with a sole exception that I can think of (which involves braving swarms of monstrous creatures to get to), the only place to get a certain item. Mostly safe to get and almost a Tuluki exclusive, since others presumably can't bypass Chaitya's Gate to get there? Perhaps it could be redistributed somewhat?

I've never quite worked out where Tuluki farms are supposed to be. If it's actually all that land marked as 'Barrens', perhaps it could be updated to be farmland? I'm sure the slaves working there for the past few years have been up to something.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 09:53:59 AM
I've never quite worked out where Tuluki farms are supposed to be. If it's actually all that land marked as 'Barrens', perhaps it could be updated to be farmland? I'm sure the slaves working there for the past few years have been up to something.

Establishing that cohesive view of what goes where/what it does/etc is something we hope to achieve before staff rotations are complete.  One thing we'd discussed thus far and plan to make more clear is that Allanak and Tuluk differ in their farming strategies; one farms inside walls, the other has satellite villages that handle that (one could argue RSV and RSE also fit those categories for Allanak).

To answer your question, though, it's virtual at this time.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 09:55:06 AM
When will the next staff rotations happen, if I may ask?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 20, 2014, 10:27:58 AM
I've never quite worked out where Tuluki farms are supposed to be. If it's actually all that land marked as 'Barrens', perhaps it could be updated to be farmland? I'm sure the slaves working there for the past few years have been up to something.

Establishing that cohesive view of what goes where/what it does/etc is something we hope to achieve before staff rotations are complete.  One thing we'd discussed thus far and plan to make more clear is that Allanak and Tuluk differ in their farming strategies; one farms inside walls, the other has satellite villages that handle that (one could argue RSV and RSE also fit those categories for Allanak).

To answer your question, though, it's virtual at this time.
Could we possibly throw in more villages around Allanak, then, besides the one big one? Just tiny 2-3 room places like the ranch west of the city. I'd go so far as to suggest that each of those villages sell a specific food type, like roots for one, fruits for another, etc, so that they have reasons for people to go to them, and they are defined by their products? The ranch could sell chalton meat and hide and bones and horns.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 10:50:14 AM
I dig this idea, 7DV.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 11:15:54 AM
What time will this happen roughly and will their be much (if any) down time?

Tuesday, May 20, with minimal (if any) downtime.

So minimal that we had no downtime.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: QuillDipper on May 20, 2014, 11:22:40 AM
The crazy-haired, goggle-wearing Dasari is standing here, laughing manically.
-He is holding a Tuluki Shrinkinator.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 11:24:07 AM
What time will this happen roughly and will their be much (if any) down time?

Tuesday, May 20, with minimal (if any) downtime.

So minimal that we had no downtime.

It's done?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 11:28:26 AM
What time will this happen roughly and will their be much (if any) down time?

Tuesday, May 20, with minimal (if any) downtime.

So minimal that we had no downtime.

It's done?

Yep.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 11:34:31 AM
Awesome.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: manonfire on May 20, 2014, 11:53:24 AM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 20, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
I'd rather have more threats to Tuluki grebbers than a smaller Allanak.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 11:56:55 AM
Where is that Dasari Merchant now?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 12:19:37 PM
Where is that Dasari Merchant now?

Same area she's always been in.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Delirium on May 20, 2014, 12:28:39 PM
... bumfuck nowhere?

More seriously, I wonder if the graveyard and plaza that were in the Old Quarter made it through the shrinkray?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 12:30:41 PM
... bumfuck nowhere?

More seriously, I wonder if the graveyard and plaza that were in the Old Quarter made it through the shrinkray?

Yep, it did.

and bumfuck nowhere is not as bumfuck nowhere as bumfuck nowhere used to be heheh
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: JustAnotherGuy on May 20, 2014, 12:32:08 PM
I'm hoping a pass was made for the NPCs that roam about.  If a big chunk we taken out, I feel bad for the pickpockets of the city.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dresan on May 20, 2014, 12:40:10 PM
Good! Maybe now with all these changes to Tuluk I'll be able to find a better apartment in Allanak.  >:(
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 12:40:21 PM
I'm hoping a pass was made for the NPCs that roam about.  If a big chunk we taken out, I feel bad for the pickpockets of the city.

Tuluk has never really been generous toward pickpockets. Compared to Allanak, many of the Tuluki NPCs don't carry much coins or sheathed weapons, or backpacks to begin with. It's a bit of a shame. The warrens also definitely need a "black market" of sort, the same way the 'rinth has one.

The Red Sun Commons could also definitely used many more NPCs.. Too many rooms without a single NPC in it. It doesn't appear 'busy' the way the Allanak market appears busy.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dakota on May 20, 2014, 12:42:25 PM
What time will this happen roughly and will their be much (if any) down time?

Tuesday, May 20, with minimal (if any) downtime.

So minimal that we had no downtime.

Nicely done on that. Kudos when kudos deserved. Nicely done.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 12:52:19 PM
... bumfuck nowhere?

More seriously, I wonder if the graveyard and plaza that were in the Old Quarter made it through the shrinkray?

I think you asked this before and it was answered before, or at least, you asked a general question and had this answered before:

We've retained the cemetery and the plaza. 

Where is that Dasari Merchant now?

Is the Dasari herbalist going to be moved within the new city limits?  I sincerely hope so.  That shop is extremely useful (cures, perfumes), and it always bugged me that it was out in the middle of nowheresville.  It also seriously dampened my out of town characters when it was put behind tattoo checkers, because it limited access to perfume items.

That's a good change to make that will likely occur.

Moved to inside RSC.  Once we update the directions commands we'll put everything up for perusal.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 12:57:16 PM
Correction, moved to Dark Moon Road, north of the Sanctuary (so from the Sanc, south, east, north onto Dark Moon Road, and west from there).  For now.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 01:00:09 PM
Love the atmosphere and desc of the new tavern, as well as the fact that it's real close to apartments :)

There's also a firepit!

Hah hah! As well as a 'surprise' in the menu.

You can see that Nyr listened to all the 'worries'  ;D
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 01:04:45 PM
I'm hoping a pass was made for the NPCs that roam about.  If a big chunk we taken out, I feel bad for the pickpockets of the city.

Actually that was a very specific part of this; the roaming NPCs have all been given new locations and scripted into those.

If they had a brain (as in, they go to x location for resting, y for working, etc) then they have NOT been added back in yet (we're tweaking some of them to give them new routes based on the new map).  Should be done a bit later today.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bracken on May 20, 2014, 02:28:16 PM
Firepit? Marvellous  :D

The Barrens.
I don't like the smell of what people are planning at all.
It's an entirely walled area , as far as I know, with guards at both gates. The areas are governed by the Surif.
Putting presumably less lethal wildlife inside may make it a gamepark for newbie hunters, which I don't think Tuluk or anywhere needs!
I think the game needs a safe attractive grebbing area for newbies. The alternative for them is to "sneak " out the gates and off the road and
                                    
Code: [Select]
l n
l s
l w
em something in a hurry
forage food
l n
l s
l w

Because of my early experiences as a noob, I'd feel so sorry to see this area changed.
I emoted my heart out here, once I came to see this was a maybe safe place.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 20, 2014, 02:34:44 PM
Newbies shouldn't be given an unrealistic expectation of safety.

But then, I started in Allanak, where you can't take a shit without having three giant spiders attack you.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 20, 2014, 02:36:03 PM
From my experience, pickpockets are definitely not at a disadvantage in Tuluk. I've bugged a few NPCs because they carried an insane amount of coin, and one could just sit there and pluck them all day long.

Perhaps with the belt items/backpacks, I didn't really think of that.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 02:40:08 PM
From my experience, pickpockets are definitely not at a disadvantage in Tuluk. I've bugged a few NPCs because they carried an insane amount of coin, and one could just sit there and pluck them all day long.

Perhaps with the belt items/backpacks, I didn't really think of that.

Nah, I didn't really mean that pickpockets should be making a fortune but it'd be nice if more than just a very few of them carried weapons and more items in their backpacks.. (Most of the NPCs that actually have sheathed weapons usually carry Legion weapons..)

Interesting items of varying difficulties to steal are a lot more interesting than stealing a whole bunch of coins, that's for sure, since you usually don't play a pickpocket to become the wealthiest guy in town.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 20, 2014, 02:44:53 PM
Newbies shouldn't be given an unrealistic expectation of safety.

But then, I started in Allanak, where you can't take a shit without having three giant spiders attack you.

To elaborate:

Newbies should be given an interesting and challenging world. If you faced death walking outside of the gates, maybe people would be more willing to hang around Tuluk and search for friends, allies and employers instead of just going off to be indie hunters (edit: or grebbers, etc). My first character didn't know much of what was around Allanak, but he knew sure as hell that it'd probably kill him if he tried to go out alone and unskilled.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 20, 2014, 02:46:03 PM
From my experience, pickpockets are definitely not at a disadvantage in Tuluk. I've bugged a few NPCs because they carried an insane amount of coin, and one could just sit there and pluck them all day long.

Perhaps with the belt items/backpacks, I didn't really think of that.

Nah, I didn't really mean that pickpockets should be making a fortune but it'd be nice if more than just a very few of them carried weapons and more items in their backpacks.. (Most of the NPCs that actually have sheathed weapons usually carry Legion weapons..)

Interesting items of varying difficulties to steal are a lot more interesting than stealing a whole bunch of coins, that's for sure, since you usually don't play a pickpocket to become the wealthiest guy in town.

But...But...Shouldn't that be PCs?

I basically wish sneaky types weren't 'outed' the first time they fail a steal attempt on a PC. I think it'd encourage a little more PvP when it comes to theft.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 02:50:37 PM
From my experience, pickpockets are definitely not at a disadvantage in Tuluk. I've bugged a few NPCs because they carried an insane amount of coin, and one could just sit there and pluck them all day long.

Perhaps with the belt items/backpacks, I didn't really think of that.

Nah, I didn't really mean that pickpockets should be making a fortune but it'd be nice if more than just a very few of them carried weapons and more items in their backpacks.. (Most of the NPCs that actually have sheathed weapons usually carry Legion weapons..)

Interesting items of varying difficulties to steal are a lot more interesting than stealing a whole bunch of coins, that's for sure, since you usually don't play a pickpocket to become the wealthiest guy in town.

But...But...Shouldn't that be PCs?

I basically wish sneaky types weren't 'outed' the first time they fail a steal attempt on a PC. I think it'd encourage a little more PvP when it comes to theft.

When you mostly always see the same 10 PCs around, stealing from them isn't the smartest of ideas  :-\

It's not a large pool of PCs, so you kinda always know who the pickpocket is, or might be.. Unlike in 'Nak, where there's a lot more elves and guild PCs around.

It really wouldn't surprise me if some of the wealthy Tuluki PCs would buy a 1000 'sids license on my pickpocket because they somewhat know that I'm the only pickpocket around and their favorite sword is missing.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 20, 2014, 03:02:52 PM
From my experience, pickpockets are definitely not at a disadvantage in Tuluk. I've bugged a few NPCs because they carried an insane amount of coin, and one could just sit there and pluck them all day long.

Perhaps with the belt items/backpacks, I didn't really think of that.

Nah, I didn't really mean that pickpockets should be making a fortune but it'd be nice if more than just a very few of them carried weapons and more items in their backpacks.. (Most of the NPCs that actually have sheathed weapons usually carry Legion weapons..)

Interesting items of varying difficulties to steal are a lot more interesting than stealing a whole bunch of coins, that's for sure, since you usually don't play a pickpocket to become the wealthiest guy in town.

But...But...Shouldn't that be PCs?

I basically wish sneaky types weren't 'outed' the first time they fail a steal attempt on a PC. I think it'd encourage a little more PvP when it comes to theft.

When you mostly always see the same 10 PCs around, stealing from them isn't the smartest of ideas  :-\

It's not a large pool of PCs, so you kinda always know who the pickpocket is, or might be.. Unlike in 'Nak, where there's a lot more elves and guild PCs around.

It really wouldn't surprise me if some of the wealthy Tuluki PCs would buy a 1000 'sids license on my pickpocket because they somewhat know that I'm the only pickpocket around and their favorite sword is missing.

Yeah...Exactly. Probably a discussion for a different thread, but those are all very valid points.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 03:22:47 PM
I think the game needs a safe attractive grebbing area for newbies.

Quote
Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world, the one exception to this trope of harshness being this one city-state where they can pretty much forage in absolute safety inside the walls of the city.

Having a safe and helpful playing environment is fine--helpers, starter shops, walkthrough rooms, walkthroughs in general that assist the newbie, and other things like that.  Having a safe area in the game for newbies is not at all something that needs to be in the game.

Quote
The alternative for them is to "sneak " out the gates and off the road and
                                    
Code: [Select]
l n
l s
l w
em something in a hurry
forage food
l n
l s
l w

The alternative for them is to do what everyone in every other area of the game has to do:  actually inhabit a harsh world, where things aren't safe.

Quote
Because of my early experiences as a noob, I'd feel so sorry to see this area changed.
I emoted my heart out here, once I came to see this was a maybe safe place.

You can still emote your heart out there, but I don't think we really want you to greb your heart out there in safety.  So we'll do one of the things suggested, more than likely.  That's not to say we won't allow foraging there at all, just that there should be pretty dingy rewards for risk-free foraging for your own benefit (rather than for a job that wants you to do something for the city, like mining or clay digging or poopsmithing).
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 03:23:33 PM
And I don't have the right extension/add-on on this computer, so I lost about an hour and a half of mapping work for the new ASCII map.  I hate you so much right now, ASCII map.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bcw81 on May 20, 2014, 03:51:43 PM
Staff...

What the actual fuck.

Tuluk does not meet the grid properly. How am I supposed to map Tuluk if it doesn't follow a grid?!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 04:07:27 PM
Also the Sun King's Sanctuary is still the old one without the changes that you said that should be there.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 04:19:42 PM
Also the Sun King's Sanctuary is still the old one without the changes that you said that should be there.

Emphasis mine:

The tavern construction and associated tavern changes are slated around the same time, subject to building completion and walkthroughs and tweaks, but it may be implemented a few days later.

The important thing was to get the Blue Vestric completed and get the remapping scripted and done, which we did.  The associated changes to the Sanctuary and the Tooth were expected to happen around the same time or lag behind a bit depending on issues with the remapping.  We've been working on the rest of the live changes throughout the day, and everything should be to what we expect by sometime tomorrow, I think.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 04:22:31 PM
Oh.

:(
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 04:28:36 PM
This should help until I can wrangle the helpfile to show this properly:

Freil's
Rest _______________________________________________
    |Nk|_|    _  ___   4|_____Ka | |    ~           |
     |___  |9| | _|_|5 6|_|Ku         Tribal Market |
      _|  _   _  ~      __|      | |_____________  _|____             
     |_   _|    |_|7|  |_        | |   Poets' Circle     |
     |___|   11 |_10_  |Sa|      | |            @     %  | |
       __|_|_____8___   __| |____| |_______________  ____| |____
      |  ___________    _______   _______________________:  ____
      | |_________|1|  |  _    | |                       | |__
      | |   ___        |______ | |                       |  __|
      | |  |WB           TzB_| | |                       | |
      | |__|    Red      |_    | |         Heart         | |____
      :  __     Sun       2|___| |        of the         |  ____|
      | |! |  Commons       _    |         Ivory         | |
      | |  |             |TB_|%| |                       | |
      | |  |______   ____|     | |                       | |    __
      | |_________| |A_|_______| |__________|=|__________| |___|_ |__
      |________   ___________   ___   ___   _____________   __   ____
Commoner     | |  3___|      | |   | |   |=|             | |  | |
Warrens______|%|  %___|___   | |  Arena  | |             | |  | |
      |  ______   ______  |  | |_________| |_            | |  | |
      | |  ____| |____  | |  | |      _|  _  |_  Nobles  | | Silver
      | | |  ___   _  | | |  | |     |K| |T| |N| Quarter | |  Road
      | | | |___|  %| |_| |  | |    _|_  | | __|_        | | 
      | |_|  _  12|_|  _  |__| |   |U__      ___W|       | |
    __|  _  | |  __   | |  __  |      _|     |_          | |
   | _  | | |_| |__%| | | |  | |    _|  _   _  |_        | |
   WA | | |_______   _| | |__| |   |L__| | | |__D|       | |
      | |_________| |___|  __  |_________|=|_____________| |
      |________   _______________________________________| |
               | :_|                                     |=:
     Vineyard  |_:

Legend:
   1 Sun King Sanctuary
   2 Blue Vestric
   3 Tembo's Tooth
   4 Nenyuki Bank
   5 Kadius Fine Wares
   6 Kuraci Shop
   7 Kadian Clothing
   8 Salarri Shop
   9 Kadius' Luminous Luxuries
   10 Arkaya's Woodwork
   11 Amphitheatre
   12 Communal Pavilion
   @ Lucky Ghaati Teahouse
   T Tenneshi Estate
   N Negean Estate
   W Winrothol Estate
   D Dasari Estate
   L Lyksae Estate
   U Uaptal Estate
   K Kassigarh Estate
   ! Isar's Tree
   TB Tenneshi Barracks
   WB Winrothol Barracks
   Nk Nenyuki Compound
   Ka Kadian Compound
   Ku Kuraci Compound
   Sa Salarri Compound
   TzB T'zai Byn Compound
   A The A'jinn Academy
   WA Warehouses
   % Apartment Building
   :/= Gate
   ~ Water Seller
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bcw81 on May 20, 2014, 04:29:11 PM
Also the Sun King's Sanctuary is still the old one without the changes that you said that should be there.

Emphasis mine:

The tavern construction and associated tavern changes are slated around the same time, subject to building completion and walkthroughs and tweaks, but it may be implemented a few days later.

The important thing was to get the Blue Vestric completed and get the remapping scripted and done, which we did.  The associated changes to the Sanctuary and the Tooth were expected to happen around the same time or lag behind a bit depending on issues with the remapping.  We've been working on the rest of the live changes throughout the day, and everything should be to what we expect by sometime tomorrow, I think.
Mapable grid plz?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 04:32:27 PM
Also the Sun King's Sanctuary is still the old one without the changes that you said that should be there.

Emphasis mine:

The tavern construction and associated tavern changes are slated around the same time, subject to building completion and walkthroughs and tweaks, but it may be implemented a few days later.

The important thing was to get the Blue Vestric completed and get the remapping scripted and done, which we did.  The associated changes to the Sanctuary and the Tooth were expected to happen around the same time or lag behind a bit depending on issues with the remapping.  We've been working on the rest of the live changes throughout the day, and everything should be to what we expect by sometime tomorrow, I think.
Mapable grid plz?

no
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 04:34:17 PM
You forgot to mark the Garden.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 04:36:40 PM
Quote
mappable grid

That really goes against the whole thing we did here.  Surgical cutting of super long roads and stuff we don't need means that stuff won't line up in a spreadsheet unless you account for some rooms taking up a few rooms.

You forgot to mark the Garden.

Wasn't marked on the old map, either...should it be?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 04:37:10 PM
It should be since it's a major landmark of the city.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 04:41:54 PM
It should be since it's a major landmark of the city.

I suppose compared to the Allanak map it could use more stuff on the legend.  Once we can get it on the helpfile I'll see about updating that with other things, including the gardens.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 04:44:49 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 04:49:36 PM
Artisans Area/dorm delinked, by the way (thanks for the reminder note :)). 

For anyone that's unaware, the Blue Vestric name hearkens back to a tavern that used to be around in Old Tuluk.  The bartender should be someone everyone knows, though.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 04:55:47 PM
Artisans Area/dorm delinked, by the way (thanks for the reminder note :)). 

Not a problem.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 20, 2014, 04:57:37 PM
Just curious of the "directions" command for new players has been updated to reflect the new layout as well?

(Seems like the sort of thing that might have slipped people's minds. I just thought of it.)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 04:59:54 PM
It hasn't been updated yet; it resides in a database and that requires a coder to update.  For the most part it is fine--it can map to rooms, the vast majority of which have not changed--but there is a small handful of exceptions, like the Blue Vestric itself (a new location), or the Dasari shopkeeper (now in a different room, so the old database file is invalid).

Tiernan will be looking at that tonight or tomorrow for a quick update.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Rahnevyn on May 20, 2014, 05:13:39 PM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?

If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray? Unlike Tuluk was up until today, most of the most frequently traveled parts of Allanak don't involve walking down giant roads to nowhere. In the commoner's quarter, you can't really remove rooms easily off of Theyak's, Stonecarver's, or Miner's Road, since they mostly all have shops hanging off of them. Merchant's Road east of the Bazaar gets a little long, but it has to be so to match up with the Noble's Quarter. And if you're a noble or servant and complaining about the walk back and forth from your cushy estate... well, 1) take your cushy job with great pay and silks and suck it up, or 2) let Oleupata and I know and we'll gladly cut your PC's legs off to ease the pain.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 20, 2014, 05:18:21 PM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?

If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray? Unlike Tuluk was up until today, most of the most frequently traveled parts of Allanak don't involve walking down giant roads to nowhere. In the commoner's quarter, you can't really remove rooms easily off of Theyak's, Stonecarver's, or Miner's Road, since they mostly all have shops hanging off of them. Merchant's Road east of the Bazaar gets a little long, but it has to be so to match up with the Noble's Quarter. And if you're a noble or servant and complaining about the walk back and forth from your cushy estate... well, 1) take your cushy job with great pay and silks and suck it up, or 2) let Oleupata and I know and we'll gladly cut your PC's legs off to ease the pain.

I think it was a mild "Come give us some love too!" comment.  :D
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Delirium on May 20, 2014, 05:31:44 PM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?

If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray? Unlike Tuluk was up until today, most of the most frequently traveled parts of Allanak don't involve walking down giant roads to nowhere. In the commoner's quarter, you can't really remove rooms easily off of Theyak's, Stonecarver's, or Miner's Road, since they mostly all have shops hanging off of them. Merchant's Road east of the Bazaar gets a little long, but it has to be so to match up with the Noble's Quarter. And if you're a noble or servant and complaining about the walk back and forth from your cushy estate... well, 1) take your cushy job with great pay and silks and suck it up, or 2) let Oleupata and I know and we'll gladly cut your PC's legs off to ease the pain.

It *is* a little annoying that you are forced to take the long way around now that the gate into the noble's quarter from south of the Dragon Temple is closed off.

It's a looooong and time consuming hike.

Unless this has been fixed .... in which case, ignore me.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 20, 2014, 05:37:43 PM
Weren't there IC events recently about that, Delirium? Or am I just hallucinating tavern posts now?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Wish on May 20, 2014, 05:46:31 PM
It's fixed.  Allanak has been getting love.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: manonfire on May 20, 2014, 06:09:14 PM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?

If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray? Unlike Tuluk was up until today, most of the most frequently traveled parts of Allanak don't involve walking down giant roads to nowhere. In the commoner's quarter, you can't really remove rooms easily off of Theyak's, Stonecarver's, or Miner's Road, since they mostly all have shops hanging off of them. Merchant's Road east of the Bazaar gets a little long, but it has to be so to match up with the Noble's Quarter. And if you're a noble or servant and complaining about the walk back and forth from your cushy estate... well, 1) take your cushy job with great pay and silks and suck it up, or 2) let Oleupata and I know and we'll gladly cut your PC's legs off to ease the pain.

The west side of Allanak is fine. The east side is a monument to inefficiency.

Here's how you fix Allanak in three simple steps.

1) Rotate the entrance to the Noble's Quarters 90' clockwise so it's facing Arena Road. You'll cut down on a metric fuckton of travel time and still retain the relative inaccessibility of the Quarter, since it's away from the heavier population centers.

2) Delete that pointless stretch of Merchant's Road heading northward from the Merchant's Gate, and move the gate so that if you're traveling east on Merchant's Road, you'll dead-end at the gate.

3) Get rid of the offshoot that houses the GMH estates and attach those rooms to Merchant's Road as northern T-junctions.

I made a picture to illustrate!

(http://i.imgur.com/Tf8ZpuU.png)

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2014, 06:12:52 PM
2) Delete that pointless stretch of Merchant's Road heading northward from the Merchant's Gate, and move the gate so that if you're traveling east on Merchant's Road, you'll dead-end at the gate.

3) Get rid of the offshoot that houses the GMH estates and attach those rooms to Merchant's Road as northern T-junctions.

+1
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Thunkkin on May 20, 2014, 06:23:47 PM
Here's how you fix Allanak in three simple steps.

+1. This would be great.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 20, 2014, 06:32:04 PM
Where would you propose putting the salt yards and Merchant's Way apartment building? You'd also lose the positioning of the old Borsail Estate which is kind of significant given its Serious Find Out IC associations. So I'm not terribly sold on cutting the Noble Quarter off from the Templar Quarter by this huge-ass Arena.

I think there's room to work on Merchant's Way east of the Bazaar.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: manonfire on May 20, 2014, 06:36:07 PM
Where would you propose putting the salt yards and Merchant's Way apartment building? You'd also lose the positioning of the old Borsail Estate which is kind of significant given its Serious Find Out IC associations. So I'm not terribly sold on cutting the Noble Quarter off from the Templar Quarter by this huge-ass Arena.

I think there's room to work on Merchant's Way east of the Bazaar.

I don't know the answers to those questions. I just wanted to get a conversation going.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: manonfire on May 20, 2014, 06:41:03 PM
I mean, if there's some seriousface interest in rebuilding Allanak, I'm happy to address the minutia, but you understand this is just a preliminary mockup of the changes I'd like to see, not some AFC'ed construction drawing.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 06:42:30 PM
It should get its own thread too :)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 20, 2014, 06:53:08 PM
I was going to post something, but decided not to post it because it might be considered in-game. Suffice it to say some things I'm happy about. Other things are bearable. Others go completely contrary to what I thought certain things were about. Yet, others are quite troubling, upsetting and frustrating. Its a change that's going to take a while to adjust to. I realize it needed to be done, but I think things got lost for my character in particular that they held to one of which being some comfort. But it is what it is. I know staff worked really hard on it and applaud them for the effort and the work.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: FantasyWriter on May 20, 2014, 06:56:40 PM
To make the Barrens east of Tuluk proper more dangerous without losing the resources there, turn off the crimcode (assuming it is on) to allow for a little PvP fun.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 20, 2014, 06:57:58 PM
To make the Barrens east of Tuluk proper more dangerous without losing the resources there, turn off the crimcode (assuming it is on) to allow for a little PvP fun.

Wouldn't make sense since the area is supposedly populated and patrolled by slaves, slave masters and soldiers.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 20, 2014, 07:02:56 PM
To make the Barrens east of Tuluk proper more dangerous without losing the resources there, turn off the crimcode (assuming it is on) to allow for a little PvP fun.

Wouldn't make sense since the area is supposedly populated and patrolled by slaves, slave masters and soldiers.

And Nyr also said its okay to go there to chillax so that wouldn't be helpful to those who are using it to chillax in.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: FantasyWriter on May 20, 2014, 08:23:19 PM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?

If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray?

Move the jail closer to the criminals.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: manonfire on May 20, 2014, 08:25:28 PM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?

If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray?

Move the jail closer to the crimbimbals.

ftfy :)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 20, 2014, 11:46:26 PM
I was going to post something, but decided not to post it because it might be considered in-game. Suffice it to say some things I'm happy about. Other things are bearable. Others go completely contrary to what I thought certain things were about. Yet, others are quite troubling, upsetting and frustrating. Its a change that's going to take a while to adjust to. I realize it needed to be done, but I think things got lost for my character in particular that they held to one of which being some comfort. But it is what it is. I know staff worked really hard on it and applaud them for the effort and the work.

Really?

So you were going to post something in a thread for discussing these actual changes, but instead of identifying specific issues or even putting in a request to address issues that are related to your character, you vaguebooked (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Vaguebook) about it? Do you want your feedback to be taken into account and actually responded to, or do you want to complain about something with no accountability or expectation of anyone taking you seriously?  It really seems like the latter; if that is the case, please just preface future posts with that so that staff members interested in legitimate feedback don't spend too much time parsing it.  "I'm happy about some things."  "Other things are bearable."  "Others are very troubling."  "My character is totally lost...but oh, no, it's great."  I think we'd rather have someone say they hate the whole thing (explaining what they hate), love the whole thing (explaining what they love), complain about specific parts or praise specific parts...any of that would be much more preferable than seeing someone vaguely complain and vaguely praise it at the same time without addressing anything.  People have already addressed specific issues here and sometimes they don't get a response directly, but it is at least said, vented, or acknowledged in some regard.  Please take that into account for any future posts you make. 

That goes for anyone.  Vague complaints and vague praise serve no purpose.  If you love what someone is doing, send them a kudos.  If you hate what someone is doing and want them to absolutely stop, put in a complaint.  If it's not to either of those extremes, at least state your case--if it's too IC you have options for stating your case to staff directly.

To make the Barrens east of Tuluk proper more dangerous without losing the resources there, turn off the crimcode (assuming it is on) to allow for a little PvP fun.

Wouldn't make sense since the area is supposedly populated and patrolled by slaves, slave masters and soldiers.

And Nyr also said its okay to go there to chillax so that wouldn't be helpful to those who are using it to chillax in.

One man's chill pad is another man's murdering ground.  We don't care what you do in the Barrens as long as you aren't saying it needs to be a super safe area to get things for very little effort.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Twilight on May 21, 2014, 12:00:10 AM
I find the grid that it is on now much more intuitive.  No more remembering to go 2 west, interrupting your north or south commands here, 1 east there, etc.

I like that certain things are within 3 room range from where you would logically travel.

And as far as I know, the bugs I submitted were all fixed really fast, which is great.

I thought I would like it.  I like it more than I thought I would.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Twilight on May 21, 2014, 12:13:03 AM
Artisans Area/dorm delinked, by the way (thanks for the reminder note :)). 

For anyone that's unaware, the Blue Vestric name hearkens back to a tavern that used to be around in Old Tuluk.  The bartender should be someone everyone knows, though.

Was that the one right inside the gates?  Kind of with the Kohmar Estate behind it?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Zoan on May 21, 2014, 12:47:41 AM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?

If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray?

Move the jail closer to the criminals.

Damn it, you beat me to it.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Zoan on May 21, 2014, 12:50:31 AM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?
If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray?

Do we REALLY need a 40-room* walk from the bazaar to the eastern gate?

* I may be exaggerating but come on.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 21, 2014, 12:58:19 AM
Can we shrinkray Allanak now?
If this was a serious comment, what would you shrinkray?

Do we REALLY need a 40-room* walk from the bazaar to the eastern gate?

* I may be exaggerating but come on.

That's the only way to get you to walk during the day, fatty.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Zoan on May 21, 2014, 01:20:10 AM
Pressing the e key that many times burns more carbs than walking around the block once a day, that's how 'too much' the distance is.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: HavokBlue on May 21, 2014, 02:00:12 AM
I wish they'd move the jail closer to the criminals.




I actually don't mind Allanak's layout, it has a lot of nooks and hiding spots that I think add a lot, but if there's anywhere with superfluous rooms, it's definitely the Road of Commerce and Merchant's Way.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Molten Heart on May 21, 2014, 02:13:51 AM
Is Brisby the bard from the Firestorm gone too or has he relocated?

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Cutthroat on May 21, 2014, 06:19:08 AM
I think the changes are pretty intuitive. Obviously they'll take some getting used to, but it wasn't the oh-noes-everybody-panic change that a chunk of posters here seemed to expect before even giving it a chance. It's mainly changes that let you move 1-5 rooms instead of 10-20 to get to the same places.

It's more condensed now, similar in "design philosophy" (lacking a better way to describe it) as Allanak's west half.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 21, 2014, 08:10:01 AM
Artisans Area/dorm delinked, by the way (thanks for the reminder note :)). 

For anyone that's unaware, the Blue Vestric name hearkens back to a tavern that used to be around in Old Tuluk.  The bartender should be someone everyone knows, though.

Was that the one right inside the gates?  Kind of with the Kohmar Estate behind it?

Frankly...that's before my time, I could not tell you with certainty!

Is Brisby the bard from the Firestorm gone too or has he relocated?

Pretty much anyone there will be relocated.  I just ran out of time yesterday.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 21, 2014, 09:26:30 AM
Updates now that things are less hectic:

Directions commands now account for the new location of the dung scraper, the Blue Vestric, and the RSC stables.
This (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Map%20Tuluk%20%28New%29) is the current map for Tuluk (I had a couple of road names wrong in the overhead view).  The Academy is in a different spot as well.

The other tavern changes have also been implemented.  To specify:


For the sake of those that like grids, we could swap the eastern "dining area thingy" in the Sanctuary to become a western one, now that the Artisans Area is gone...
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 21, 2014, 09:45:48 AM
I just wanted to say I really like the new stable location in Tuluk as it relates to everything else. Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Blur on May 21, 2014, 11:03:52 AM
First off, good work on the changes they are a good step forward. I really look forward to seeing them at some point.

This is off-topic and almost old now in this thread but I just got to say:

As someone who has played in tuluk for a long time I totally agree with desertman. The type of roles you can play in tuluk feel really limited. If you aren't playing someone who is patriotic and wants to be a contributing member of society with a happy smile well then...you are either going to be bored to death or disappeared. Which is sad because when I read the docs once upon a time, I got the impression that the people of tuluk were like this in public, but in private they knew what was going on,they took steps and had methods to protect themselves from being discovered. Tulukis in private, behind closed door should able to talk, maybe even be able to make plans and to take more action.  This has not the case ICly unfortunately, regardless of what spies accomplished in the hrpt. Most of the conflict the city sees comes from the outside, the best conflict being when allanak decides to pay attention to tuluk. The legion, well my feeling on the legion are pretty much detailed on its the clan forums assuming those posts are still there though the leader at the times i've joined (he knows who he is) made it memorable. Personally for me though, it is unbearable to be in a tuluki clan that does not allow you to leave the city, at least in the scrubs there is a chance something interesting might happen. To the handful of people that have been able to play tuluki city bound roles for years and years, just wait til you get a chance to play again in allanak. :D I'm kidding, I respect the people who have the serious amount of patience needed to play those roles, since its not something I can do, luckily thanks to allanak, its not something I have to do.


Anyways sorry for the derail, most of what I said has been said before already.  I'm curious to see how this all turns out in the end. The changes so far seem awesome for what its worth.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 21, 2014, 12:02:15 PM
First off, good work on the changes they are a good step forward. I really look forward to seeing them at some point.

Glad you like them!  :)

Quote
As someone who has played in tuluk for a long time I totally agree with desertman. The type of roles you can play in tuluk feel really limited. If you aren't playing someone who is patriotic and wants to be a contributing member of society with a happy smile well then...you are either going to be bored to death or disappeared.

We're sorry you feel that way.  Tuluk has changed a lot in the past several months and one of the things touted is exactly what you say would result in people being bored to death or disappeared.

Quote
Which is sad because when I read the docs once upon a time, I got the impression that the people of tuluk were like this in public, but in private they knew what was going on,they took steps and had methods to protect themselves from being discovered. In private behind closed door were able to talk, maybe even take more action.  This has not the case ICly unfortunately, regardless of what spies accomplished in the hrpt. Most of the conflict the city sees comes from the outside, the best conflict being when allanak decides to pay attention to tuluk.

Huh.  That reminds me, we probably should get that history page updated with the most recent RPT in Tuluk and what it affected.  Regardless of who actually chose to get involved with any of the internal conflicts in Tuluk, the opportunity was there the entire time for players to take action.  When major things happen around your character, it is an opportunity for that to affect your character in a deep and profound way.  Even if you aren't around for the actual event in question (or even if you are around but feel like it's just happening around you and you can't do anything to stop it/help it/whatever), the fact that x happened can shape your character's goals in the future.

Quote
The legion, well my feeling on the legion are pretty much detailed on its the clan forums assuming those posts are still there. Personally for me though, it is unbearable to be in a tuluki clan that does not allow you to leave the city, at least in the scrubs there is a chance something interesting might happen.

Your posts are still there.  Do you remember the posts that were made in response to them?  Posts that would point out that the schedule (such that it is) is OOCly lenient, allowing for soldier PCs to assign themselves to tavern watch or city patrols if there is no other PC around to interact with during their schedule?  Posts that would point out that privates and above actually get time off that they can request from their PC bosses (or virtually, if no boss is around) in which they can do exactly what you are saying is unbearable?  All of that was before we even mentioned things like new documentation and complete restructuring of the clan.

I'd also recommend reviewing these (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47178.0.html) changes and also noting that Legion soldiers now get paid in a manner comparable to other soldiers rather than the pittance they were paid before.  Regardless of what issues you had or thought you had with the Legion, it is structured quite a bit differently now.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 21, 2014, 12:15:36 PM
God forbid an RPT happens in Tuluk that doesn't get on the history page  ;)

The city page for Tuluk itself (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluk) could maybe use some updating, too. There's nothing in it that's really inspiring when it comes to getting the flavor of the city or the roles you could play there.

As someone who has played in tuluk for a long time I totally agree with desertman. The type of roles you can play in tuluk feel really limited. If you aren't playing someone who is patriotic and wants to be a contributing member of society with a happy smile well then...you are either going to be bored to death or disappeared.

We're sorry you feel that way.  Tuluk has changed a lot in the past several months and one of the things touted is exactly what you say would result in people being bored to death or disappeared.

I'm a little confused. Nyr, are you saying that non-patriotic and non-contributing PCs are even more unwelcome in Tuluk, now? Or is it the opposite, Staff trying to inject some variability in to the character populace? I'm posting as someone who wants to play in Tuluk (if for no other reason right now than an obligation to give the other half of the Known its due) but am having trouble discerning from the publicly available documents just what other kinds of characters are acceptable, other than bards and soldiers.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Cutthroat on May 21, 2014, 12:32:05 PM
I could be wrong, but I think Nyr was referring to Tuluk's less welcoming stance on non-citizens after the Tyn Dashra HRPT and the rah-rah, love-it-or-leave-it atmosphere in Tuluk afterward. Which incidentally came about at a time when players were complaining Tuluk was far too welcoming of non-citizens and other assorted weirdos and that was boring and also the only way to play a Tuluki (not really the case then, but whatever). Now that it isn't welcoming at all, and you have to be, or at least appear, patriotic... that too is boring to some people.

You can't really please everyone, I guess.

You have a point about the city page, BadSkeelz. The Allanak page is more descriptive of the setting of Allanak, while Tuluk focuses more on history. History is nice and it puts things in perspective, but doesn't really describe the city itself, and where a PC can fit into things currently. It would be nice to see the Tuluk page become the "Tuluk history" page, and the Tuluk page describing the Warrens, the Red Sun Commons, Poet's Circle, etc., describing the most common professions people in Tuluk have, like hunting and soldiering and barding and being a criminal (of both the shadow artist and not-shadow-artist variety), describing patronage, and so on. Tuluk definitely isn't bards + soldiers * infinity. That could stand to be more clear.

Edit to add: I guess the ideal Tuluk page would be the Tuluk Details page, heh. http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluk%20Details
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 21, 2014, 12:34:57 PM
God forbid an RPT happens in Tuluk that doesn't get on the history page  ;)

The city page for Tuluk itself (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluk) could maybe use some updating, too. There's nothing in it that's really inspiring when it comes to getting the flavor of the city or the roles you could play there.

That really should just be called "Tuluki History up to whenever we felt like stopping."  The "What You Know (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluk%20Details)" page covers a whole lot more.  Ideally, I would like to make this page (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Culture) the "What You Know" page, with a summary at the top that links to the really detailed stuff.  Last time I talked to Morg about it, our thoughts were that a new player doesn't need to know the vast and deep cultural stuff for Tuluk OR Allanak on that What You Know page--they need Cliff's notes with references to the deeper stuff.

Quote
As someone who has played in tuluk for a long time I totally agree with desertman. The type of roles you can play in tuluk feel really limited. If you aren't playing someone who is patriotic and wants to be a contributing member of society with a happy smile well then...you are either going to be bored to death or disappeared.

We're sorry you feel that way.  Tuluk has changed a lot in the past several months and one of the things touted is exactly what you say would result in people being bored to death or disappeared.

I'm a little confused. Nyr, are you saying that non-patriotic and non-contributing PCs are even more unwelcome in Tuluk, now? Or is it the opposite, Staff trying to inject some variability in to the character populace? I'm posting as someone who wants to play in Tuluk (if for no other reason right now than an obligation to give the other half of the Known its due) but am having trouble discerning from the publicly available documents just what other kinds of characters are acceptable, other than bards and soldiers.

I'm saying that the kind of work we've done in Tuluk has been to help promote broader and deeper roleplay from people than blind faith in the Sun King.  It wouldn't hurt to know your place and know what to say, but behind the facade of "oh I am so patriotic and so loyal to Utep," there is room for quite a bit of depth.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 21, 2014, 01:00:16 PM
Thank you for the link to the "What You Know" page; I'd kind of forgotten that was a thing. It's much more helpful than the main Tuluki page, and (at least for me, personally) much more helpful and interesting than the Tuluki Culture page. I prefer a good narrative lead in than cliff notes, myself. A large part of the reason that my first character wasn't in Tuluk was because there seemed to be a lot more docs that were spread all around. So for me the "What You Know" page is a much stronger draw.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 21, 2014, 01:31:33 PM
As someone who has played in tuluk for a long time I totally agree with desertman. The type of roles you can play in tuluk feel really limited. If you aren't playing someone who is patriotic and wants to be a contributing member of society with a happy smile well then...you are either going to be bored to death or disappeared.

We're sorry you feel that way.  Tuluk has changed a lot in the past several months and one of the things touted is exactly what you say would result in people being bored to death or disappeared.

I'm a little confused. Nyr, are you saying that non-patriotic and non-contributing PCs are even more unwelcome in Tuluk, now? Or is it the opposite, Staff trying to inject some variability in to the character populace? I'm posting as someone who wants to play in Tuluk (if for no other reason right now than an obligation to give the other half of the Known its due) but am having trouble discerning from the publicly available documents just what other kinds of characters are acceptable, other than bards and soldiers.

I'm saying that the kind of work we've done in Tuluk has been to help promote broader and deeper roleplay from people than blind faith in the Sun King.  It wouldn't hurt to know your place and know what to say, but behind the facade of "oh I am so patriotic and so loyal to Utep," there is room for quite a bit of depth.

Since I was referenced here, and having experienced some of what "new Tuluk" has to offer and having seen some of the changes first hand I have a new opinion. (And I've only scratched the paint, so to speak.)

All I can say is go to Tuluk and experience some of what it has to offer now. Some of the IC things happening around there are just so "un-Tuluki" in terms of "old soft Tuluk".

I couldn't be happier with where things are going. I'm very interested to see more and to see this place six months from now. Thanks staff.  :)

(I may even play a villain up that way at some point in the future, since that seems to be viable now if I am guessing correctly.)





Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on May 21, 2014, 01:35:53 PM
Wow.

Much change.

Many tears.

Desertman.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 21, 2014, 01:48:02 PM
Wow.

Much change.

Many tears.

Desertman.

How I always felt about old Tuluk:
(http://www.weddingwindow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/TeaParty1.jpg)


How Tuluk is seriously starting to look: (Anyone who knows about drow warfare/politics and knows about new Tuluk knows that I mean. Very, Menzoberranzan lately, in some regards. )

(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/features/10e_rav_plains_moeller_lg.jpg)

I don't mean everyone is black elves with white hair running around being evil. Just, the overall feel of the political world in Tuluk now. I find myself wondering if staff took a little inspiration in that regard.

It's 1984 (mindset) meets Minas Tirith (visuals) meets Durzo Blint (shadow artists) meets Menzoberranzan (politics). That's how I would describe it. *nods*
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Blur on May 21, 2014, 02:51:41 PM
As someone who has played in tuluk for a long time I totally agree with desertman. The type of roles you can play in tuluk feel really limited. If you aren't playing someone who is patriotic and wants to be a contributing member of society with a happy smile well then...you are either going to be bored to death or disappeared.

We're sorry you feel that way.  Tuluk has changed a lot in the past several months and one of the things touted is exactly what you say would result in people being bored to death or disappeared.

This is a pretty bold thing to say.  Again in the past it felt that if you were not mundane, disappeared. Alright fair some might say, magickers beware. Murdered someone without permission, disappeared. Plotted something that didn't mesh well with tuluki happy go lucky ideals, disappeared. Didn't agree with what templars are doing, god forbid tried to plot against anyone in their circle of best buddies, disappeared. Was there really any surprise there was absolutely no real crime in the city back then? Heck what little crime there was state approved after all or was soon disappeared. I can't really call that 'crime'. Now if you are saying this problem was worked on and solved ( or will be fully solved in the near future), then really is a wonderful change.

Which is sad because when I read the docs once upon a time, I got the impression that the people of tuluk were like this in public, but in private they knew what was going on,they took steps and had methods to protect themselves from being discovered. In private behind closed door were able to talk, maybe even take more action.  This has not the case ICly unfortunately, regardless of what spies accomplished in the hrpt. Most of the conflict the city sees comes from the outside, the best conflict being when allanak decides to pay attention to tuluk.

Huh.  That reminds me, we probably should get that history page updated with the most recent RPT in Tuluk and what it affected.  Regardless of who actually chose to get involved with any of the internal conflicts in Tuluk, the opportunity was there the entire time for players to take action.  When major things happen around your character, it is an opportunity for that to affect your character in a deep and profound way.  Even if you aren't around for the actual event in question (or even if you are around but feel like it's just happening around you and you can't do anything to stop it/help it/whatever), the fact that x happened can shape your character's goals in the future.

To me the plots by sponsored roles and larger the plots you are working on definitely icing on a cake. Its really cool that you are taking the time to do all this work and keep the city alive. However, these are spaced out events, the actual cake for me is my own individual plots, my own goals, my own conflicts. Now as you said, this might have changed but until just very recently the tuluki setting has been very limited. When I was a solider, the most I could get away with is being an asshole to undesirables, which in turn made them go elsewhere leaving the place even emptier for me. The moment my character tried to stray from that path of a good happy soldier due to the events that were going on around him,  he almost got disappeared.  :-X As I said, I'm really glad this whole disappeared business is being looked at and hopefully the changes tone it down.

The legion, well my feeling on the legion are pretty much detailed on its the clan forums assuming those posts are still there. Personally for me though, it is unbearable to be in a tuluki clan that does not allow you to leave the city, at least in the scrubs there is a chance something interesting might happen.

Your posts are still there.  Do you remember the posts that were made in response to them?  Posts that would point out that the schedule (such that it is) is OOCly lenient, allowing for soldier PCs to assign themselves to tavern watch or city patrols if there is no other PC around to interact with during their schedule?  Posts that would point out that privates and above actually get time off that they can request from their PC bosses (or virtually, if no boss is around) in which they can do exactly what you are saying is unbearable?  All of that was before we even mentioned things like new documentation and complete restructuring of the clan.

I'd also recommend reviewing these (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47178.0.html) changes and also noting that Legion soldiers now get paid in a manner comparable to other soldiers rather than the pittance they were paid before.  Regardless of what issues you had or thought you had with the Legion, it is structured quite a bit differently now.

The schedule changes meant that my character was basically restricted to patrolling a city which was already feeling more or less empty and dead. I will agree that it was a vast improvement to being forced to solo train in the barracks the entire day under the old schedule. The legion's schedule slowly grew on me as I tested them out, and I'm hoping to see them one day being implemented in clans that might also be restrictive schedule wise. However, I'm not referring to just the legion when I that I will never join a tuluki clan that is restricted to the city. The reason is because in tuluk, there was a greater chance of conflict happening in wilderness surrounding it then there was in the actual city, whether it be magicker, raider, southerner or just shit hitting the fan. In allanak, you have gemmers, rinthers, aides, elves, southside, merchants, solders, nobles and templars. Everyone is very willing to fuck each other over the moment they get a chance too most of the time. Conflict just happens within in allanak as if were the most natural thing, and that is on top of the every day crime and conflict from redstorm. It also doesn't just get disappeared, not without making a big ruckus first at least. Granted a compromise was reached and some freedoms were given to my legionnaire so long as someone else was logged on, but personally for me it just didn't beat being able to roam around looking for trouble/fun. Afterall at the time, there was just very little to do within tuluk and that went double if you are off-peaker, and that was on top of all that i felt i there was very little I was allowed to do with my character plot wise anyways without getting disappeared. It hasn't felt that way in allanak.

 Also back then your argument was that there would be changes coming to the city that would improve the situation, thus giving us players a better setting to plot and play in. You were right, there have been a lot of changes since then, they all look in the right direction.  The shadow artist system look completely oppressive to me practically becoming a templar's pets/tools but I'm hoping that's the idea, you force people to take crime/dissent/corruption into their own hands without being immediately disappeared to accomplish their goals.  I'm looking forward to seeing how it all looks when its all set and done. Hopefully coming back, playing and heck, maybe trying a city bound clan someday again there. :)

Thanks again for all the work.
 

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Blur on May 21, 2014, 03:05:54 PM

(I may even play a villain up that way at some point in the future, since that seems to be viable now if I am guessing correctly.)



Now if this is possible, then the changes are really going to breathe new life into the place.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 21, 2014, 03:10:49 PM
I agree with Blur on his first point.

There is a certain element that will someday need to be addressed.. An element that many of us know about but that talking about it would be a big no no on the GDB. It's an IC element that makes all sort of criminal thoughts and misbehavior nearly impossible to play out, or the attempt of playing anything but the most of mundanes really hard, nearly impossible and I think it's a big shame that we can't complain openly about it/offer ideas/etc.. Y'all know what I'm talking about.

I like to think that this 'element' was changed with the IC changes from a few months ago, but I may be wrong. Tell me I'm right, Nyr :)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 21, 2014, 04:47:49 PM
This is a pretty bold thing to say.  Again in the past it felt that if you were not mundane, disappeared. Alright fair some might say, magickers beware. Murdered someone without permission, disappeared. Plotted something that didn't mesh well with tuluki happy go lucky ideals, disappeared. Didn't agree with what templars are doing, god forbid tried to plot against anyone in their circle of best buddies, disappeared. Was there really any surprise there was absolutely no real crime in the city back then? Heck what little crime there was state approved after all or was soon disappeared. I can't really call that 'crime'. Now if you are saying this problem was worked on and solved ( or will be fully solved in the near future), then really is a wonderful change.

Not mundane and get caught not being mundane, disappeared.  Murdered someone, unlicensed and without a contract to do so, and didn't have the clout to back it up, disappeared.  Plotted something that didn't mesh well with Tuluki happy go lucky ideals, no one gives a damn.  Didn't agree with what templars are doing, no one gives a damn unless you say something stupid to someone that'll report it (then, possibly, disappeared).  Plotted against a templar's best buddies and got caught, potentially targeted by a shadow artist and (if successful) disappeared.  There are key things that people in either city-state have to do, it is not limited to Tuluk.  Playing in Tuluk doesn't give you carte blanche to play a character in a dumb way and be able to blame your PC's death or negative circumstances on "the system".

Quote
To me the plots by sponsored roles and larger the plots you are working on definitely icing on a cake. Its really cool that you are taking the time to do all this work and keep the city alive.  However, these are spaced out events, the actual cake for me is my own individual plots, my own goals, my own conflicts. Now as you said, this might have changed but until just very recently the tuluki setting has been very limited. When I was a solider, the most I could get away with is being an asshole to undesirables, which in turn made them go elsewhere leaving the place even emptier for me.  The moment my character tried to stray from that path of a good happy soldier due to the events that were going on around him,  he almost got disappeared.  :-X As I said, I'm really glad this whole disappeared business is being looked at and hopefully the changes tone it down.

I've read over your reports and I really don't think you were ever squashed by staff or other players in your plans, and I think you're exaggerating some of this.  Even in your first report we said we are happy to see people being corrupt and stuff.  How you go about being corrupt is important, though.

Quote
The schedule changes meant that my character was basically restricted to patrolling a city which was already feeling more or less empty and dead.

But you could take off days when you wanted (within reason) or give yourself tavern watch if there was no one else on at the same time as you.  Restricted?  You mean "allowed", right?  If every other clan is more restricted than that, and you were allowed to spend a lot more time on your own than most players have in any other clan that is military-ish, your issue isn't so much with this group or with any group--it's a playtime problem.

Quote
The reason is because in tuluk, there was a greater chance of conflict happening in wilderness surrounding it then there was in the actual city, whether it be magicker, raider, southerner or just shit hitting the fan. In allanak, you have gemmers, rinthers, aides, elves, southside, merchants, solders, nobles and templars. Everyone is very willing to fuck each other over the moment they get a chance too most of the time. Conflict just happens within in allanak as if were the most natural thing, and that is on top of the every day crime and conflict from redstorm. It also doesn't just get disappeared, not without making a big ruckus first at least. Granted a compromise was reached and some freedoms were given to my legionnaire so long as someone else was logged on, but personally for me it just didn't beat being able to roam around looking for trouble/fun. Afterall at the time, there was just very little to do within tuluk and that went double if you are off-peaker, and that was on top of all that i felt i there was very little I was allowed to do with my character plot wise anyways without getting disappeared. It hasn't felt that way in allanak.

There was definitely a lot of chance to get involved in conflict recently, I'd say, and the internal conflict thing is something that has been pushed of late.  I mean, even now (before the history page update I am talking about) you can see that. 

Quote
The shadow artist system look completely oppressive to me practically becoming a templar's pets/tools

This isn't quite how it works or even quite how it could work.  We'll have a post up (maybe a thread up) for this soon with some examples.  Glad you are open to looking at it again, though!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 21, 2014, 05:02:36 PM
I agree with Blur on his first point.

There is a certain element that will someday need to be addressed.. An element that many of us know about but that talking about it would be a big no no on the GDB. It's an IC element that makes all sort of criminal thoughts and misbehavior nearly impossible to play out, or the attempt of playing anything but the most of mundanes really hard, nearly impossible and I think it's a big shame that we can't complain openly about it/offer ideas/etc.. Y'all know what I'm talking about.

I like to think that this 'element' was changed with the IC changes from a few months ago, but I may be wrong. Tell me I'm right, Nyr :)

You mean the thing that we specifically put in the documentation to stop this sort of silly beat-around-the-bush wink-wink-nudge-nudge stuff?

Key list of changes

Updated documentation for the "What You Know (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluk%20Details)" page for Tuluk to bring it more in line with the type of information provided on Allanak's page, and also to update it with the current paradigm.
  • Expanded on the oppression of Tuluk ("near-constant state of benevolent oppression"), explaining the dichotomy between loyalty/love for the Sun King and the possibility of fearing one's templarate and soldiers.
  • Matched up the same sort of verbiage used for describing Allanak's templars as being granted powers by Tektolnes; this was something of a poorly kept and annoying OOC secret in Tuluk that affected IC play in weird ways.
  • Brought the information on the page more in line with the AoD page, though less verbose.  As such, templar backing by the Sun King is made more visible.
  • Overall view towards templars/soldiers made a bit more clear to match up better with recent events.

To be utterly blunt, here's what Allanak's page says about their templars:

Quote
Templars are His Gloriousness's elite soldiers and spellcasters. Their power comes from Tektolnes Himself rather than from the elements, more deadly but with few applications aside from destroying people who pose a threat to Him. Templars basically have the power to act as judge, jury and executioner, and don't hesitate to use it whenever they desire.

Here's what Tuluk's page says about their templars:

Quote
In addition to slavery, the city-state of Tuluk's authority figures keep the citizenry in a near-constant state of benevolent oppression. Tuluki citizens tend to maintain fierce and true feelings of loyalty and almost love towards their Sun King. However, they may well simultaneously feel fear from His Faithful that are empowered with abilities of the mind and body that He grants them.

Here's what the AoD page says about its templars:

Quote
Their authority is backed up by the powerful magick they wield, gifted by Tektolnes to his greatest servants.

Here's what the USC page says about its templars:

Quote
The authority of the Templarate is backed by the Sun King and the abilities of the mind and body that He grants His Faithful servants.

We made a deliberate change to this with Producer approval precisely because of the kind of posting about it, the fact that it was this unspoken yet well-known "secret."  It makes sense to assume IC that if Allanak's templars have some powers given by their sorcerer-king, so also goes Tuluk.  We're explicitly stating it.  However, just like the helpfiles and docs don't say what Allanaki templars can do with their magick, neither do they say what Tuluki templars can do with their granted abilities of the mind and body.  Furthermore, we've made changes to the skills and abilities that they have and how they are granted and set, and we've come up with a way to balance things in a manner we feel appropriate, taking years of playerbase and staff concerns into account.

Find out IC, but for the love of God, you can stop pretending that you can't mention that aspect of Tuluki templars.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 21, 2014, 05:09:11 PM
Furthermore, we've made changes to the skills and abilities that they have and how they are granted and set, and we've come up with a way to balance things in a manner we feel appropriate, taking years of playerbase and staff concerns into account.

Find out IC, but for the love of God, you can stop pretending that you can't mention that aspect of Tuluki templars.

Hey now, I wasn't aware of that part in the docs and didn't want to be told that I'm revealing some major IC secrets, hence the 'hush hush' style of attempting to speak about something without getting spanked (damned if you do, damned if you don't), but from reading the bold part of your answer, that makes me very happy to read about the fair changes and whatever they might be, any changes there is much appreciated :)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 21, 2014, 05:12:17 PM
No problem.  I figured more people would see it when it first came up but apparently not, heh!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 21, 2014, 07:13:01 PM
Removed a few posts up here discussing events that probably shouldn't be brought up on the GDB.  I'll reiterate this post and elaborate...

Didn't agree with what templars are doing, no one gives a damn unless you say something stupid to someone that'll report it (then, possibly, disappeared).  Plotted against a templar's best buddies and got caught, potentially targeted by a shadow artist and (if successful) disappeared.  There are key things that people in either city-state have to do, it is not limited to Tuluk.  Playing in Tuluk doesn't give you carte blanche to play a character in a dumb way and be able to blame your PC's death or negative circumstances on "the system".

Don't get caught, or don't blab to people, or have better timing.  Any of those would work.  Stop assuming something vaguely nefarious when something you do IC results in negative IC action.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bcw81 on May 21, 2014, 11:27:13 PM
For the sake of those that like grids, we could swap the eastern "dining area thingy" in the Sanctuary to become a western one, now that the Artisans Area is gone...
While I just figured out how to map Tuluk and have finished doing so, and this would make me have to go back and rework the map a bit...

Please? There's only one other area that doesn't fit on the grid the way I see it anymore, and that's the Gaur Pandu road where it intersects with Chyata's Gate (Spelling be ignored). It moves one room too far north and blocks the gate on a gridmap.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Blur on May 21, 2014, 11:31:24 PM
Removed a few posts up here discussing events that probably shouldn't be brought up on the GDB.  I'll reiterate this post and elaborate...

Didn't agree with what templars are doing, no one gives a damn unless you say something stupid to someone that'll report it (then, possibly, disappeared).  Plotted against a templar's best buddies and got caught, potentially targeted by a shadow artist and (if successful) disappeared.  There are key things that people in either city-state have to do, it is not limited to Tuluk.  Playing in Tuluk doesn't give you carte blanche to play a character in a dumb way and be able to blame your PC's death or negative circumstances on "the system".

Don't get caught, or don't blab to people, or have better timing.  Any of those would work.  Stop assuming something vaguely nefarious when something you do IC results in negative IC action.

It doesn't really change the fact that in Tuluk it could be a snitch or something vaguely nefarious. I'm not exaggerating anything and in my report I didn't assume any one possibility.There is a key aspect in tuluk which isn't present in allanak, that goes well beyond simply saying something stupid or just playing dumb. It was/is a big part of that old is part of that 'system' which is find out IC for me.  It doesn't really matter if the risk is real or just perceived, the mere idea that it exists makes it feel a lot harder if not impossible not to get caught. Thus no real crime in the entire city. Coincidentally fanatical patriotism has been also been consequence of that 'system'. Its follow, obey or be disappeared.   It has been stated that hopefully changes will now allowing character a bit more depth in regards to unyielding tuluki love then in the past. Great!  

Anyways, I've derailed enough, this feels like another thread, one that I'm pretty sure already exists and had been already locked.

Again good job on the map changes.

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Knight of Knives on May 22, 2014, 11:50:32 AM
Removed a few posts up here discussing events that probably shouldn't be brought up on the GDB.  I'll reiterate this post and elaborate...

Didn't agree with what templars are doing, no one gives a damn unless you say something stupid to someone that'll report it (then, possibly, disappeared).  Plotted against a templar's best buddies and got caught, potentially targeted by a shadow artist and (if successful) disappeared.  There are key things that people in either city-state have to do, it is not limited to Tuluk.  Playing in Tuluk doesn't give you carte blanche to play a character in a dumb way and be able to blame your PC's death or negative circumstances on "the system".

Don't get caught, or don't blab to people, or have better timing.  Any of those would work.  Stop assuming something vaguely nefarious when something you do IC results in negative IC action.

It doesn't really change the fact that in Tuluk it could be a snitch or something vaguely nefarious. I'm not exaggerating anything and in my report I didn't assume any one possibility.There is a key aspect in tuluk which isn't present in allanak, that goes well beyond simply saying something stupid or just playing dumb. It was/is a big part of that old is part of that 'system' which is find out IC for me.  It doesn't really matter if the risk is real or just perceived, the mere idea that it exists makes it feel a lot harder if not impossible not to get caught. Thus no real crime in the entire city. Coincidentally fanatical patriotism has been also been consequence of that 'system'.


I think that at the current state of Tuluk, it is almost certainly a snitch or something vaguely nefarious. That key aspect which is continuously being alluded to I believe now allows for a huge range of things beyond fanatical patriotism - until, of course, you are gently 'corrected'. I think that playing a character who is criminal/malcontent in Tuluk is in parts easier and in parts harder than Allanak. You have to be a -lot- more careful with your friends and who you pick as enemies. You essentially have license to fuck up anyone elses business as long as you have the coin, and there's nothing stopping any criminal from working out deals with the Templarate: "My contract is 500 sid this year, for burglary rights to apartments on Poet's road, etc etc'. There's nothing from stopping you assuming a partisanship with nobles and templars to -do- those sorts of things. And unlicensed crime? I think it should definitely be viable - but the PC templars should not be spending their time chasing someone's lost daggers. That's for the PC soldiers to do - giving both types of characters fun things to 'do' in Tuluk rather than wander around. It also elevates the status of those who are actual 'artists', giving them a reason to be hired rather than the warren rats scraping together sid.

Moreover, Desertman's thoughts mesh entirely with my own: it's very Menzobarrazan. This gives a rich den of above-the-belt subterfuge and behind-the-back backstabbing between the noble houses, and a reason for the noble PCs to hire and promote plots for their underlings. Mix in the possibility of commoner families hoping to distinguish themselves in the Sun King's eyes and be raised to Surif (personal hope of mine), and you have a rich setting for plenty of craziness: a precarious balance of money/power between those in the same social circle as you, with the constant looking ahead on how to elevate and the constant checking behind for others to crawl over your corpse, with everyone presenting the best possible 'face' that they can to the Sun King and the Templarate, the arbiters of the conflicts.

My thoughts of Tuluk was always that it was supposed to be everyone fighting over Daddy Utep's favor: elbowing each other in the kidneys as you try to be the best. "I'm the best Tuluki- look at the gemmer I just killed!" "No I am- look at this contest I just won with this fantastic song I just wrote." "But I've been in the Levy for -six- years!"

"No, -we- are. Look how our House of such loyal and noble lineage has helped His Ivory by rooting out treason within -this- House and this is why we deserve this Qynarate."

For this to work, Daddy can't always be there watching everything, and can't be omnisciently ready to spank anyone who gets the barest fraction out of line. I think the recent changes support that.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 22, 2014, 12:59:39 PM
I was going to post something, but decided not to post it because it might be considered in-game. Suffice it to say some things I'm happy about. Other things are bearable. Others go completely contrary to what I thought certain things were about. Yet, others are quite troubling, upsetting and frustrating. Its a change that's going to take a while to adjust to. I realize it needed to be done, but I think things got lost for my character in particular that they held to one of which being some comfort. But it is what it is. I know staff worked really hard on it and applaud them for the effort and the work.

Really?

So you were going to post something in a thread for discussing these actual changes, but instead of identifying specific issues or even putting in a request to address issues that are related to your character, you vaguebooked (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Vaguebook) about it? Do you want your feedback to be taken into account and actually responded to, or do you want to complain about something with no accountability or expectation of anyone taking you seriously?  It really seems like the latter; if that is the case, please just preface future posts with that so that staff members interested in legitimate feedback don't spend too much time parsing it.  "I'm happy about some things."  "Other things are bearable."  "Others are very troubling."  "My character is totally lost...but oh, no, it's great."  I think we'd rather have someone say they hate the whole thing (explaining what they hate), love the whole thing (explaining what they love), complain about specific parts or praise specific parts...any of that would be much more preferable than seeing someone vaguely complain and vaguely praise it at the same time without addressing anything.  People have already addressed specific issues here and sometimes they don't get a response directly, but it is at least said, vented, or acknowledged in some regard.  Please take that into account for any future posts you make. 

That goes for anyone.  Vague complaints and vague praise serve no purpose.  If you love what someone is doing, send them a kudos.  If you hate what someone is doing and want them to absolutely stop, put in a complaint.  If it's not to either of those extremes, at least state your case--if it's too IC you have options for stating your case to staff directly.

I guess the two things that are most concerning are as follows:

1) The apartment that used to be said as being the safest in Tuluk is now left wide open to non-citizens. Was this an intentional thing to have this apartment chosen not to have a tattoo checker before it? If not, when can we hope for this mistake to be corrected?
2) It is a little difficult to figure out how to get around. When I wrote this things were changing and the Directions command still wasn't all that great. The Dasari Stand must have moved like 3 times, hopefully the new placement is going to be her permanent home.

I find it very frustrating that I did make compliments, however the only thing that stuck out to you was the complaint. I think the change is great, because there's a lot less walking from place to place. Long walks/rides got quite tiresome when going through the city and it did make it difficult to find others to socialize with. I also like the new tavern I guess I would make a suggestion about putting some tables or something to sit on in the fire pits area though, beyond that its beautiful and quite fitting. Once again thank you staff for all the hard work you have put into improving Tuluk.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 22, 2014, 01:20:51 PM
I guess the two things that are most concerning are as follows:

1) The apartment that used to be said as being the safest in Tuluk is now left wide open to non-citizens. Was this an intentional thing to have this apartment chosen not to have a tattoo checker before it? If not, when can we hope for this mistake to be corrected?

Yeah, we need to move a tattoo checker there.  Not a big deal.  Though keep in mind that when we do apartment revamps in Tuluk (similar to the ones in Allanak), these apartments and the ones in Poets' Circle are probably first on the list for lots of other reasons.  Eventually there will be a place for noncitizens to stay, too.

Quote
2) It is a little difficult to figure out how to get around. When I wrote this things were changing and the Directions command still wasn't all that great. The Dasari Stand must have moved like 3 times, hopefully the new placement is going to be her permanent home.

The directions command was correct for all but three locations for a period of about 24 hours.  When you wrote this things were not still changing, there were a handful of cleanup items to address and that was it..  The Dasari stand moved once--from where it was to where it was going.  Period.

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I find it very frustrating that I did make compliments, however the only thing that stuck out to you was the complaint.

Most of your post was a complaint.  If you didn't want it to be focused on then you shouldn't have made it, or you should've been specific (as you have been now) so that it can be addressed.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 22, 2014, 01:23:53 PM
Quote
I also like the new tavern I guess I would make a suggestion about putting some tables or something to sit on in the fire pits area though, beyond that its beautiful and quite fitting.

That's a possibility that could be added; we'll make a note!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on May 22, 2014, 01:38:11 PM
It's not a tattoo checker guy that's going to keep you from harm if someone wishes you harm. As long as it keeps non-citizens from renting apartments if/when they are not supposed to, it does the job it's supposed to.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: slvrmoontiger on May 22, 2014, 01:46:44 PM
It's not a tattoo checker guy that's going to keep you from harm if someone wishes you harm. As long as it keeps non-citizens from renting apartments if/when they are not supposed to, it does the job it's supposed to.

That's all I really ask for. To be honest I really got pissed off when I found there wasn't someone stopping non-citizens from renting in that apartment after the move of the apartment. I understand harm comes from citizens... Its the matter of non-citizens renting in an apartment that shouldn't be able to after an OOC change. It really could affect IG stuff. That wasn't what this change was about from what I understood. It was meant to be OOC change. One was to act like that's where the apartment always was and nothing changed from the norm IG.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on May 22, 2014, 03:15:22 PM
It's not a tattoo checker guy that's going to keep you from harm if someone wishes you harm. As long as it keeps non-citizens from renting apartments if/when they are not supposed to, it does the job it's supposed to.

That's all I really ask for. To be honest I really got pissed off when I found there wasn't someone stopping non-citizens from renting in that apartment after the move of the apartment. I understand harm comes from citizens... Its the matter of non-citizens renting in an apartment that shouldn't be able to after an OOC change. It really could affect IG stuff. That wasn't what this change was about from what I understood. It was meant to be OOC change. One was to act like that's where the apartment always was and nothing changed from the norm IG.

This is where you should take a moment to breathe and understand you're playing a game.  When things change, especially on a large scale, you're going to see some things that did not work as intended, were oversights, or just codedly didn't fit properly.  Accept that up front and you'll have much more fun playing this game.

This is a lot easier to do:

Quote
In the room outside, type this.

typo hey, looks like with the apartment move there's not a tattoo checker in place--this would allow non-citizens into an area of the public quarter that they previously have not been allowed in.

Don't vaguely rant on the GDB about it. Don't go in depth here about how this could really affect IG stuff, either.  It's a silly thing to be pissed off over.  The way you are writing this and the way you have written other things about this move makes it look like you have difficulty separating IC from OOC.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Desertman on May 22, 2014, 03:19:49 PM
(http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/3087-real-life-is-it.jpg)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on June 04, 2014, 08:36:51 PM
I feel like the tiny, copper-skinned, auburn-haired woman in the Sun King's doesn't belong, she should be in the Thooth or the other one.  A.lso the prices and the items that bartender is offering is still the old Sun King's?  Will this be changed?
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: long live miley cyrus on June 05, 2014, 03:01:48 PM
I feel like the tiny, copper-skinned, auburn-haired woman in the Sun King's doesn't belong, she should be in the Thooth or the other one.

I feel this way too. Apart from being the nicest tavern, the one nobles and upper to middle class citizens are more likely to frequent, and being the closest to the west gate and the nearest stables for those arriving by the most commonly taken route, this chick walks around in there offering the cheapest food and drink of any coded tavern. This while the Tembo's Tooth food is more expensive than Sanctuary food (main room anyway, but ginka pie is still cheaper than their soul food analogue), while drinks are slightly cheaper in the Tooth without the trader woman, arguably because of the beer/ale v. wine difference. I feel like the Tooth should be more attractive for subsistence and low-income players.

I'm excited about the atmospheric changes being implemented in Tuluk and look forward to how it will evolve in the future. I really like the idea of playing a non-legal criminal full-time, being careful, maybe getting caught by a corporal or private and being forced to pay them to keep quiet, always wondering when you're going to get caught. Really opens up the possibility for a spice smuggler too, which I imagine would be crazy profitable.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on June 05, 2014, 03:34:17 PM
I'm excited about the atmospheric changes being implemented in Tuluk and look forward to how it will evolve in the future. I really like the idea of playing a non-legal criminal full-time, being careful, maybe getting caught by a corporal or private and being forced to pay them to keep quiet, always wondering when you're going to get caught. Really opens up the possibility for a spice smuggler too, which I imagine would be crazy profitable.

It's not smuggling if the product you're bringing in is legal.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: shadeoux on June 05, 2014, 04:41:27 PM
Smuggling in jade emblazoned swords...
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Barsook on June 05, 2014, 07:57:34 PM
I think I would like to have the food of the Tooth for the woman in the Sun King's.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: bcw81 on June 05, 2014, 08:27:36 PM
I think I would like to have the food of the Tooth for the woman in the Sun King's.
Tuluk needs more food in their taverns. Period.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on June 05, 2014, 09:21:29 PM
There are find-out IC reasons for why Tuluk is lacking in tavern food.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: long live miley cyrus on June 06, 2014, 09:49:37 AM
There are find-out IC reasons for why Tuluk is lacking in tavern food.

Scariest thing I've ever read.

I'm excited about the atmospheric changes being implemented in Tuluk and look forward to how it will evolve in the future. I really like the idea of playing a non-legal criminal full-time, being careful, maybe getting caught by a corporal or private and being forced to pay them to keep quiet, always wondering when you're going to get caught. Really opens up the possibility for a spice smuggler too, which I imagine would be crazy profitable.

It's not smuggling if the product you're bringing in is legal.

Behind Kurac's back--- and making a big profit off of it, I mean. Taking enough of their profits for them to take notice. (not that I know if a single pc can pull this off... no idea what number profit would need to be hit for this)
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on June 06, 2014, 01:11:04 PM
It's pretty hard to profit off something that is legal and can be bought at mostly reasonable prices (From PC's at least).

Now if you were selling grains or something, I guess that's a possibility, but Kurac would find out about you pretty fast, and that'd be a hard beast to get away from.

Much easier in Allanak, I think.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on June 06, 2014, 01:25:42 PM
It's pretty hard to profit off something that is legal and can be bought at mostly reasonable prices (From PC's at least).

Now if you were selling grains or something, I guess that's a possibility, but Kurac would find out about you pretty fast, and that'd be a hard beast to get away from.

Much easier in Allanak, I think.

You'd have to be pretty retarded to forage for your own grains in the middle of fucknowhere Red Storm neighborhood and then get all the way to Tuluk to sell them at a small profit, but then, this is Armageddon and retarded things is what a vast majority of players specialize in.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on June 06, 2014, 03:03:57 PM
Agreed. Well, with the first part. No need to 'jaded veteran' everywhere you go!
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: rodic on June 06, 2014, 03:37:17 PM


You'd have to be pretty retarded to forage for your own grains in the middle of fucknowhere Red Storm neighborhood and then get all the way to Tuluk to sell them at a small profit, but then, this is Armageddon and retarded things is what a vast majority of players specialize in.

How is that retarded? Thats like the basic way you would under cut Kurac... which might be retarded... but That idea behind that is sound.

Kurac charges an amount for X amount of spice
PC trader charges less for X amount of spice.

As long as the PC is making more then if they deliver direct to Kurac, that's a perfect legit thing to do.

It's like going over a GMH and trying to under cut their profits.  You wouldn't buy GMH products at full price and sell them at a loss would you?  That would be retarded.

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: RogueGunslinger on June 06, 2014, 03:49:29 PM
Maybe because you'd get twice the profit from selling in Allanak and not have to travel nearly as far.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on June 06, 2014, 05:57:10 PM
Maybe because you'd get twice the profit from selling in Allanak and not have to travel nearly as far.

Yeah, mostly this. If you are trading something illegal/hard to get in Allanak, you are bound to make more money than in a place farther away, where it is also legal, and sold at reasonable prices. It'd be difficult to imagine it being more profitable to smuggle spice into Tuluk, than into Allanak and the Labyrinth.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: rodic on June 06, 2014, 06:06:17 PM
Maybe because you'd get twice the profit from selling in Allanak and not have to travel nearly as far.

Yeah, mostly this. If you are trading something illegal/hard to get in Allanak, you are bound to make more money than in a place farther away, where it is also legal, and sold at reasonable prices. It'd be difficult to imagine it being more profitable to smuggle spice into Tuluk, than into Allanak and the Labyrinth.

Well... except the risk of getting caught.

But I see the point.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: long live miley cyrus on June 08, 2014, 01:11:38 PM
We should have an elven tavern in Tuluk.

Too many taverns, I know, but I just really wish I could go into allanak or tuluk without needing to pass through Backstab Junction in order to enter a tavern for mostly elves, creating an atmosphere that is unique to them and would for me become a big draw to play elves, as long as echoes and such were set to keep it from becoming another "eight humans and a dorf" tavern.

or maybe turn the Tooth into an elven-dominant, but not weird for humans tavern, have the Akai buy it from Kurac or whatever. And then add an elves-only tavern southside in Allanak that has had a mild to moderate reputation of tossing out an unusual number of human bodies, something that might pass over human heads because they think they're the center of the universe, but to other races would send the message that humans are more in danger/not in as much control in and around that place. It'd be hilarious if it weren't more than a room in an abandoned building with a few tables and some barrels of booze behind a guard, with a pair of scissors on a sign outside or what have you, trying to masquerade as a real establishment. One can dream, I suppose. I just wish there was a tavern a law-abiding citizen can sit in, but be on edge the whole time they're in there.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Malken on June 08, 2014, 01:32:59 PM
We should have an elven tavern in Tuluk.

Too many taverns, I know, but I just really wish I could go into allanak or tuluk without needing to pass through Backstab Junction in order to enter a tavern for mostly elves, creating an atmosphere that is unique to them and would for me become a big draw to play elves, as long as echoes and such were set to keep it from becoming another "eight humans and a dorf" tavern.

or maybe turn the Tooth into an elven-dominant, but not weird for humans tavern, have the Akai buy it from Kurac or whatever. And then add an elves-only tavern southside in Allanak that has had a mild to moderate reputation of tossing out an unusual number of human bodies, something that might pass over human heads because they think they're the center of the universe, but to other races would send the message that humans are more in danger/not in as much control in and around that place. It'd be hilarious if it weren't more than a room in an abandoned building with a few tables and some barrels of booze behind a guard, with a pair of scissors on a sign outside or what have you, trying to masquerade as a real establishment. One can dream, I suppose. I just wish there was a tavern a law-abiding citizen can sit in, but be on edge the whole time they're in there.

Dude, we had an elven tavern a month ago for YEARS, but it got recently disappeared, do you really think they're going to add a new elf tavern now?

First of all we need elf PCs to make an elven tavern worth it and you need to give people a reason to play elves in Tuluk for that (the Akai ain't it, and we have a whole thread about this already).
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Morrolan on June 09, 2014, 12:30:11 AM
We should have an elven tavern in Tuluk.

Instead of separate taverns, separate tables in the same tavern has a lot to offer. It's the hell of the middle-school lunchroom all over again.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: BadSkeelz on June 09, 2014, 01:12:22 AM
Except in tuluk you'd have to throw all the food in hemotes.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Reiloth on June 09, 2014, 02:01:33 AM
I agree that separate tables really shows the class divide.

Perhaps Elven tables at bars are considered the Norm for Elves to sit at -- They aren't really welcome at the bar, because it's easy pickings for pick-pockets.

Reminds me of the segregation in America -- And that's a good source to draw from, when considering ignorant bigotry related to race.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Dresan on June 09, 2014, 10:09:51 AM
I agree that separate tables really shows the class divide.

Perhaps Elven tables at bars are considered the Norm for Elves to sit at -- They aren't really welcome at the bar, because it's easy pickings for pick-pockets.

Reminds me of the segregation in America -- And that's a good source to draw from, when considering ignorant bigotry related to race.

These are interesting and reasonable ideas in theory. However, is it really a good idea to make a race that is already seemingly gimped in almost ever possible way, code wise and rp-wise even more isolated from the bulk of the player-base? Wouldn't more segregation make elves even less enjoyable to play even for those few people who still find them fun to play?

Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: long live miley cyrus on June 09, 2014, 02:16:15 PM
I agree that separate tables really shows the class divide.

Perhaps Elven tables at bars are considered the Norm for Elves to sit at -- They aren't really welcome at the bar, because it's easy pickings for pick-pockets.

Reminds me of the segregation in America -- And that's a good source to draw from, when considering ignorant bigotry related to race.

These are interesting and reasonable ideas in theory. However, is it really a good idea to make a race that is already seemingly gimped in almost ever possible way, code wise and rp-wise even more isolated from the bulk of the player-base? Wouldn't more segregation make elves even less enjoyable to play even for those few people who still find them fun to play?



Sucks, but makes sense. But sometimes elves make their own temporary tables, if that helps any. You know when there's more than one in the room.

Stuff

I suppose I should have added that yeah, elves need to make up more than 8% of the pc count playing at anytime, but I didn't feel like the tribal market tavern was really an elven tavern. It felt more like a distant hole in the ground to wait for the sun to come up than anything. Somewhere deep in the warrens/commoners' quarter, brimming with elven echoes and npcs and serving elven food--- where a regular cadre of four elves, two others coming frequently and three others randomly showing up, go at anytime to chat in a uniquely elven environment and contemplate pickpocketing, scamming and mugging each other. Gambling where success is based on agility (correlating well with the average craftiness of pc races) and a priceless echo where a human steps into the room, the whole place goes quiet, they sit at the bar and order a drink, and then gradually the atmosphere returns to normal. One can dream, though, since I doubt this will be a viable idea for years.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on June 10, 2014, 10:48:28 AM
We should have an elven tavern in Tuluk.

Used to.  Got rid of it.  You can take your elf to the Tooth, though, probably the most appropriate place for that in Tuluk.
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Helloworld on June 11, 2014, 06:51:39 PM
Okay, I don't know if this has already been mentioned, this is the first time I've posted here and there's no way I combing 14 pages of info to check if it's repetition....

I just walked down Yasnia's way (or what ever it's called) and there are a couple other places that the roads glitch around and mean that you can't retrace your steps and room sizes which *really* don't add up. I realise that the grid is not uniform but this is to a degree that indicates that something is a little off. To me at least.

I have logs if needed ^.^
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Helloworld on June 12, 2014, 07:47:14 AM
*Correction,

thought I had logs....
Title: Re: Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion
Post by: Nyr on June 12, 2014, 08:49:15 AM
Please bug that or typo that in-game.