Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: BleakOne on December 23, 2013, 11:00:46 PM

Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BleakOne on December 23, 2013, 11:00:46 PM
Double post, but just wanted to say that although I'd usually complain about parts of RP being banned, I have no problem at all with that particular RP type being banned totally.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 23, 2013, 11:03:14 PM
It isn't even a topic I really want to talk about. Never really understood the mindset behind someone who would want to roleplay.....


Oops there I go talking about it.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ShaLeah on December 23, 2013, 11:04:31 PM
Double post, but just wanted to say that although I'd usually complain about parts of RP being banned, I have no problem at all with that particular RP type being banned totally.

Ditto. I'm actually surprised anyone would roleplay that out. The most horrific of sides to the many nuances of rape that is.

Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 23, 2013, 11:37:57 PM
Can we still play rapists who don't actually roleplay raping PC's?

I have never roleplayed a rape on either end, but I have played a few PC's who used "being a rapist" as a way to gain instant villain status, even though the rapes were virtual and no pc's were ever actually involved.



Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Refugee on December 23, 2013, 11:49:05 PM
I'm glad rape is gone.  Good decision.

Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 23, 2013, 11:49:13 PM
For the sake of making it easy on staff and players alike I will say no.

You can put that your pc was a rapist in the background. You can't play out being a rapist in game, even if it's purely in mindset and not action.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Kronibas on December 24, 2013, 12:04:52 AM
I'm glad rape is gone.  Good decision.


Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 24, 2013, 12:23:37 AM
(I've never had the desire to play out an act of rape, nor am I saddened by the loss of those possible plots - please don't assume that by me asking these questions, I've suddenly taken a blow to some would-be rapist character) So just to sate my curiosity:
 - I've taken note of what Adhira just said, and am curious as to whether or not characters can think about the act of rape on a passing whim after 'dislikable man/woman irks them greatly,' but not actually partake in it.
 - If there are any characters currently out there that have been involved in rape plots, such as those who might know a victim, the victim himself/herself, or the rapist, is the plot entirely scrapped and forgotten about by all? Retconned?
 - I'm 99% sure of the answer, but can you still discuss rape with others IC, or has it become a forbidden topic among PCs?
- Let's say two sexual deviants decide like to role-play during intercourse, and they've decided to go at it by pretending one of the two is raping the other. Do you allow this?

P.S. Again, I don't actually commit to any of this - never have, never will - but with a major policy change to a game that's been around for twenty years, my curiosity does tend to get the better of me. 
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 24, 2013, 12:33:54 AM
For the sake of making it easy on staff and players alike I will say no.

You can put that your pc was a rapist in the background. You can't play out being a rapist in game, even if it's purely in mindset and not action.
In certain lines of work - Soldiering specifically - History has said rape is a common occurrence.

Now, with that in mind, is it a storable offence to have a soldier character in one of the cities say he/she wants to go (insert opposite geographical direction here) and murder, rape, and pillage said enemy soldiers/citizens on a broad level?
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Ourla on December 24, 2013, 12:49:13 AM
I'm surprised this is even an issue. I had no idea.  Never in my 7+ years of playing have I ever encountered RP even coming close to rape.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 24, 2013, 01:15:28 AM
I've seen it alluded to (never first hand, blech) a few times in my almost-two years here. Most of the time it was something of a mess.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: slvrmoontiger on December 24, 2013, 01:22:42 AM
I've seen it alluded to (never first hand, blech) a few times in my almost-two years here. Most of the time it was something of a mess.

Blechy mess that's for sure.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 24, 2013, 01:45:23 AM
For that matter, would alluding that a stupid idea would get someone raped be against the rules now?

Example:
The scantily dressed fme merchant says, in Sirihish, doing fme poses and flopping her generous assets about:
        "I'm going to go see my friend in the 'Rinth and we're going to get drunk!"

Everyone at the Gaj and Gladiator tavern says, in crowd-accented Sirihish:
        "Gur, you goin' ta' get raped doin' stupid shit like that."
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Delirium on December 24, 2013, 01:59:42 AM
While I think it should always be a potential threat to be considered by PCs (even if only virtually, just as we assume that death by chest decay or childbirth is possible), I understand the reasons for not wanting to deal with it in the non-virtual world, and support the decision to ban that avenue of roleplay. 

That said, how hard-line are we being? Would allusions to the potential of it happening (as opposed to actual threats) be treated as a rule-breaking action?

Unfortunately, this seems a bit muddy/awkward to enforce in the kind of gameworld we have, where such actions are commonplace and a very real threat (and with an entire sub-race, half-elves, often born of the act). There is going to be a grey area no matter what, and honestly I liked where we had it before; it existed, but you weren't forced to participate in such a storyline if it wasn't something you were able to stomach playing out (nor would I, personally, ever want to).
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 24, 2013, 02:06:10 AM
While I think it should always be a potential threat to be considered by PCs (even if only virtually, just as we assume that death by chest decay or childbirth is possible), I understand the reasons for not wanting to deal with it in the non-virtual world, and support the decision to ban that avenue of roleplay. 

That said, how hard-line are we being? Would allusions to the potential of it happening (as opposed to actual threats) be treated as a rule-breaking action?

Unfortunately, this seems a bit muddy/awkward to enforce in the kind of gameworld we have, where such actions are commonplace and a very real threat (and with an entire sub-race, half-elves, often born of the act). There is going to be a grey area no matter what, and honestly I liked where we had it before; it existed, but you weren't forced to participate in such a storyline if it wasn't something you were able to stomach playing out (nor would I, personally, ever want to).
Thank you for wording that better than I ever could have. A hard line against this is a bit... Aggravating in the world we play in. If anything, I think instead of a hard line, this should just require the same type of consent dismemberment requires - In that if someone says no, it's not happening. Not virtually, not faded, just not happening. And that should extend to any form of accusations of rape or the like (maybe sent through staff in occurrences where you might not want to let the person know you're accusing them.)

A hard line really does muddy the waters.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 24, 2013, 02:55:35 AM
I believe that what was stated was rape-related plotlines are banned. Saying you're going to get raped if x (like walking into the rinth with a soldier's cloak on) isn't going to get you stored.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Delirium on December 24, 2013, 03:07:59 AM
I'd hope not. One of my more memorable moments from a past character (a certain overly-emotional half-elf) included a reference to rape (as well as very strong language and a bloody beat-down). Heck, I was asked to submit the log ("A Brawl at the Post"). I would hate for scenes like that to disappear from Armageddon.

That being said, I do want to reiterate that otherwise, I fully support the decision. No one should have to roleplay that.
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Inks on December 24, 2013, 03:11:31 AM
While I have never and will never pursue this type of plotline, and I don't really mind it has been banned. I would prefer an enforced ftb if consent is given.
Bcw is spot on here.  You can't even talk about ot now?
Title: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Eurynomos on December 24, 2013, 03:18:48 AM
No, you cannot use it as a plot point for your PC or other PC's.

Mentioning that 'rape happens in Zalanthas' is of course true, or that 'you shouldn't go into the Labyrinth because you might be raped and murdered', but saying 'Amos over there, I heard he raped someone' is not allowed any longer, nor is 'Hey imma rape you, ooc consent to rape?'. You can include rape as a part of your PC's background, because let's face it, half-elves.

Rape is now a virtual part of the world.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 24, 2013, 03:27:07 AM
I too have never had any encounter with rape but I'm appalled it's even a thing that existed to the point we needed to make a PSA about it here.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Scarecrow on December 24, 2013, 03:28:44 AM
I think it's for the best.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BleakOne on December 24, 2013, 03:34:16 AM
I'd like to point out that I didn't actually make this a topic of its own, mine was just the first post of the derail on the other thread (whoops).

Also, I'm with Scarecrow.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 24, 2013, 03:37:12 AM
For the last several years we had a consent rule around this issue.  What we found is that this didn't help. It didn't stop situations arising in game that ended up dragging in a lot of people who were unhappy to be part of said storyline. It didn't help make a safe situation for players at all times, with regard to this topic. It DID result in staff having to handle, on a fairly regular basis, complaints and other issues based on these kinds of storylines.

Modern sensibilities and a sensitive topic make for a hard to contain storyline.  Rape in our real world is a heinous crime. It's vile and traumatic. It can be traumatic for many people to consider being faced with anything regarding this issue in our game.  Rape and sexual assault in the Zalanthan landscape, where assassins can be licensed and murder is a day to day occurence, is likely something quite different.  Yet it can be hard for our playerbase to put aside their own reaction to this topic and treat a storyline involving this situation similarly to a storyline where Amos got his apartment robbed.  We do not feel that this is something that we should be asking people to do.

The whole area is hard for staff to manage.  We do not wish to manage this.  This new policy has arisen from our experience in dealing with this in a consent based system over the last few years.

We do appreciate that there may be some grey areas, and some mis-steps that happen.  On the whole we don't predict that this will be something widespread, or that we will have to step in to deal with in any manner.  What we are asking is that you do not pursue rape plotlines in game.

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.

We understand that some of these things have been acceptable in the past. We ask that you work with us in removing these storylines from our game.  
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Jingo on December 24, 2013, 03:50:45 AM
I'd be fine if the consent rule was strictly adhered to. But too many idiots pushing too many boundaries warrants a change. This is really, honestly for the best.

Also should be on the list:

Mindbenders trying to mindbend people into sex. (Hi Rathustra)

Sex with dead bodies. Beyond the squick factor, I imagine it could become another way of twisting the boundaries also.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Jingo on December 24, 2013, 03:51:38 AM
dubble post

2pro
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: slvrmoontiger on December 24, 2013, 03:57:26 AM
Just wanted to make sure that Help Consent gets corrected completely so its not confusing. This is what I found on the website. I believe the bolded line should be removed to make it correct.

Quote
Consent
(Rules)
There are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, please OOC to make sure that the role play is consented to. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape death/torture/etc. Perhaps a good analogy is the movie ratings system: some people may wish to see the details acted out in a way which would deserve an R rating while another, younger player might prefer that the details be communicated in an OOC fashion and left offstage.

Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. You may choose to place such a storyline as background to your pc at creation, however, this cannot be played out in the actual game world. This extends to accusations of rape, as well -- You may not accuse another PC of raping your PC or another PC (or NPC/VNPC for that matter). If you do so, your character will be stored and a discussion will be opened via the request tool as to further action. You may not ask for consent to rape another PC, as these plot lines cannot be pursued in ArmageddonMUD.

In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the precedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision.

If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be banned. If you fail to get consent before a rape plotline or an act of rape, you will be banned. In either case, You will be banned for thirty (30) days for the first offense, permanently for the second offense. If the Producers deem an act that is a first offense especially egregious, you will be permanently banned. Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities.

See Also:
rules, Producer

I believe that would be the correction that needs to take place. The "you" should then be capitalized to make it the first word of the sentence as I have put above.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 24, 2013, 03:58:45 AM
Thanks slvrmoontiger, good catch. Will fix that.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Calavera on December 24, 2013, 04:06:31 AM
I'd like to note that for the record, this was not a unanimous decision and there was a lot of consideration put into it. We're aware that discussion around plotlines of this nature in the past has resulted in a lot of interesting and character-developing roleplay for the people involved, such as the log Delirium is referring to. A blanket policy change is always the last resort when people continue to push the envelope because nobody wants to enact a change that affects all players on account of the actions of a few.

Unfortunately it was an issue that was cropping up often enough that it became evident the measures we had in place were not enough.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yummri on December 24, 2013, 04:06:58 AM
No, I have read everything and I am fully relieved that this has been removed from play. In my 3 months here I've had to deal with this a few times. So I can only imagine what staff go through.

But I would like to clarify something. Because while against rape I've never really minded torture as a whole. It fits the setting. So when you say you can't rp sexual torture. Do you mean?

Torture that involves violation of the various sexual organs or just penetration?
Can you rp castration or severing someone's chest so long as it is not an act of rape.

Basically I would like a clear definition of sexual torture (assuming normal torture is still under the consent rules) so that I'll know if people are crossing the line and whatnot.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: HavokBlue on December 24, 2013, 04:27:41 AM
I'm not a fan of closing this off to consenting people, but in my time playing the game I don't think I've even heard the word 'rape' mentioned, so it doesn't really affect me.

I understand that rape is a horrible thing and that it's shitty to live with and that we may have players living with the awful consequences of such acts... murder and violent assault are equally horrible and shitty and we may have players who have dealt with those things too. I guess I just have trouble understanding the mindset that most people seem to have that rape is the single worst offense you can commit.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: tiptoe on December 24, 2013, 04:39:02 AM
This:
I understand that rape is a horrible thing and that it's shitty to live with and that we may have players living with the awful consequences of such acts... murder and violent assault are equally horrible and shitty and we may have players who have dealt with those things too. I guess I just have trouble understanding the mindset that most people seem to have that rape is the single worst offense you can commit.

I understand the reasoning behind banning it, but I don't necessarily agree with the decision. I've had characters that were raped in game. While it's not something I really enjoyed, it made for some real character-defining roleplay. I feel like taking out the chance that it could happen to your character completely eliminates an entire aspect of character growth/regression. I suppose it had been happening more than I realize, but in the time I've played it's happened only twice to my characters. And both instances were years ago.

Maybe it's just me, but I've definitely been more upset when my characters were murdered than when they were raped.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: James de Monet on December 24, 2013, 04:45:48 AM
I guess I just have trouble understanding the mindset that most people seem to have that rape is the single worst offense you can commit.

It's viewed that way because of how personal it is.  It's psychologically awful for the victim in a way that simple violence could never really be.

I'm all for this change, even though I think the preponderance of rape in a world like Zalanthas, where there are few consequences, would be much greater than ours, where the consequences are very high.  Even recognizing the realism and likelihood of it, I just couldn't want to do that, IG.  I don't need that level of realism.  It makes me uncomfortable.

That being said though, I just realized that this means I lose the very best threat off my list of threats to use if I ever play a crime boss IG.  Nuts.  It was a jaw dropper.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 24, 2013, 04:48:07 AM
In nearly four years of play the only time I have heard of rape once. And that was between two very consenting PC's. I can see the reasons behind banning this, but at the same time I can't see how this is a problem. If there's no consent, ban the asshole who broke the rules. If this has to deal with bringing people into the plotline... Well, like Havok said, how is that worse than murder or torture? At that point in the story the act is done and all that's left is the cleanup.

And again, I need to ask staff for an answer on this:
As a soldier type PC, is saying "I want to go murder, rape, and pillage the enemy holdings and citizenry!" against the rules?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 24, 2013, 05:02:16 AM
bcw81 - if a soldier type PC is saying that then we probably aren't going to ban them. But then, it's really not that hard to just say  "I want to go murder, and pillage the enemy holdings and citizenry!", is it?

Again, this wasn't a quick decision.  It is primarily based on the fact that we as staff do not wish to deal with the issues that arise in this area.  We have tried other ways to deal with it, they are not working. I'm sorry that some people are feeling we've removed something from the game that they did not wish to see removed.   You will find staff in some agreement with many of the assessments here. Yes, murder is horrible too. However, murder in this game does not result in the amount of player angst and staff time that this topic does.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Qzzrbl on December 24, 2013, 05:13:38 AM
Whelp.

The gith sure got a lot less scary.

Are we still cool with taking advantage of corpses/critters?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: jstorrie on December 24, 2013, 05:51:50 AM
We already make many compromises that favor fun gameplay over 'muh realism,' and this one makes more sense than most of them. Good policy change.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Patuk on December 24, 2013, 07:52:27 AM
Even if I'm not someone who'd ask for the banning of storylines of these myself, I can see why the decision's been made, and I'm not really going to miss it.

On the other hand, one of my characters has been accused of rape before, and it lead to ridiculous IC silliness to the point where staff told me to send in a character report on the spot explaining what went on. I can see how, should such cases be more common, staff would get tired of dealing with it.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 08:49:32 AM
While I think it should always be a potential threat to be considered by PCs (even if only virtually, just as we assume that death by chest decay or childbirth is possible), I understand the reasons for not wanting to deal with it in the non-virtual world, and support the decision to ban that avenue of roleplay. 

That said, how hard-line are we being? Would allusions to the potential of it happening (as opposed to actual threats) be treated as a rule-breaking action?

Unfortunately, this seems a bit muddy/awkward to enforce in the kind of gameworld we have, where such actions are commonplace and a very real threat (and with an entire sub-race, half-elves, often born of the act). There is going to be a grey area no matter what, and honestly I liked where we had it before; it existed, but you weren't forced to participate in such a storyline if it wasn't something you were able to stomach playing out (nor would I, personally, ever want to).
Thank you for wording that better than I ever could have. A hard line against this is a bit... Aggravating in the world we play in. If anything, I think instead of a hard line, this should just require the same type of consent dismemberment requires - In that if someone says no, it's not happening. Not virtually, not faded, just not happening. And that should extend to any form of accusations of rape or the like (maybe sent through staff in occurrences where you might not want to let the person know you're accusing them.)

A hard line really does muddy the waters.

Except for consent for accusations, that already was the rule. Looking at it from a plotline generation perspective, while it was technically IC to rape someone, or sic a mob on someone by accusing them of rape, or ruin someone's reputation, etc., it really brings things down in terms of what is possible for plotting. Staff gave people in Allanak and Tuluk a wide variety of tools and methods for PCs to act out against each other (and recently improved that in Tuluk with the new shadow artist system). Why should we have access to this lowest common denominator of plots, which is frankly uncreative and more OOCly disturbing, when there are simply more interesting things to do?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Pale Horse on December 24, 2013, 09:34:23 AM
My first impression was that in a supposedly "harsh world" eliminating one of the possibly more pervasive acts of harshness from the hands of the player-base will, by the act-ban alone, take away from the "harshness" just by removing even the possibility of fear of it happening to "them/their character."  It was the freedom and even the option to have to deal with harsh consequences that was one of the reasons that drew me to the game in the beginning; that someone respected us enough to handle it and leave it open.

That being said, almost anyone in the military can tell you that any of the "stupid rules" we commonly have to comply with are due to the actions of a few that became enough of a problem for leadership, beyond the measures put in place that the majority found to be acceptable and so lived with, that they had to institute a blanket ban.  Someone ruined it for everyone.  I am not a fan of blanket bans, but I understand them and have sat in on meetings where the decision was made.  It is never an easy thing and I will respect our Staffs' decision.

I'd like to go on the record and state that I consider rape to be an enormously vile act, and I am glad I have not had an experience where another player asked to role-play the scene.  If in reality you and another consenting adult enjoy the role-play, that is your business.  I will (or would have, before the ban) exercise my own option of declining such.

Edited for grammar and typos.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 24, 2013, 09:47:12 AM
 :'(I'm glad. Lately its been pervasive, inspiring (in me) anger, eye rolling and feelings of general ickiness.

It happened, recently, with such frequency that I wondered if there wasa sadistic pay off. I think there was. I'm glad it got shut down.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: joyofdiscord on December 24, 2013, 10:00:58 AM
This is fantastic news and a great Christmas present!  Explaining Arm to friends just got a whole lot easier.

I'm not worried about the pervasive harshness because this particular type of harshness was so heavily gender-colored in a world where we're supposed to have equality of gender.  I almost always witnessed plotlines like this as the last resort of a male PC to put a female PC in her place, and it usually comes across as a cheap way to add drama.  We have no shortage of harshness and cruelty to unleash on each other.

Has no place in the game, adds very little or nothing, and the few plotlines that may have been enriched by it are a small price to pay.  The consent compromise, while well-meaning, can come across as extortion because it sounds like "let me do my rape emotes or I'll kill your PC."

Thank you staff for this great decision!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 10:20:18 AM
Gage Gritshaw was a hardcore rapist to the point that it was the only way he could get his jollies.

Never once roleplayed a rape. Never sexually assaulted a PC other than this one time I put my junk on some dame's face in a sparring match. But that was more for comedic relief for a group and nothing sexual.

But a lot of virtual NPC dames got the raping from Gage Gritshaw.

Why? Because Gage Gritshaw was the UGLY side of things manifested from the virtual vnpc world into the PC world.

He was the reason you don't let your kids go out at night. Because there are worse things than death.

Death is so common place in Zalanthas, killing people doesn't get you villain status. It gets you criminal status. It isn't the same thing. Murderers are a dime a dozen.

Theft is such a low end crime on the morality scale as the be laughable.

I suppose betrayal can still garner up the sort of emotions needed to make someone truly disgusted by your PC, but, it isn't the same. But still, in the PC world, it is the norm, it isn't the exception. Most of the time it is yawn inducing at best.

Torture is possibly on the same villain scale as rape, but only if the torturer is truly good at what they do, and even then, you would have to do it in front of an audience to get the sort of lasting affects you want on the general population's psyche. Most of the time if you tell someone you tortured someone and you are a torturer, it is again so common place on Zalanthas as to make them take another drink and ignore you.

You know what makes people truly fear you/disgusted by you/really hate your PC on an OOC level? The kind of reaction you want from the person behind the keyboard when you are playing a villain?

Tell them you are that part of society that not even most hardened murderers will back up.

I did a fair amount of psychology research into the mindset of real life villains before I wrote up that character and decided to play him. You know the one group of psychos that even the other psychos are disgusted by in prison?

The rapists.

I'm not even sure which side I'm arguing for here to be honest. I just wanted to throw out the idea that "censoring" things is a slippery slope, especially when they are universally censored.

Gage Gritshaw could not exist without me being banned in this new system. You will never see that sort of villain again. They are no longer allowed in the game. And that PC never once roleplayed a rape or anything related to a rape. Not once.

Then again, when I tell you I researched the psychology of how to truly disgust even the most disgusting of individuals to make the people behind their keyboards at home have an emotional response to my PC.....it might be a good thing that I can't do that anymore. Maybe I was going too far.

I do think that saying, "Well, you can't even reference the idea that your pc was raped in the virtual world or that your pc was involved in a rape in their past in the virtual world." Is a bit too much.

In the end I don't suppose it has much to do with rape. It has more to do with the idea that my roleplay is being censored, when no pc's are even involved and I'm not even doing anything to anyone else's characters.

I am 100% on board with banning rape from the game in the sense that it can no longer happen between two PC's. That wasn't going to affect my roleplay anyways. Ban the crap out of it. I don't want to be involved in that, and I really don't think most other people do either.

The whole, "You can't even reference rape in a virtual sense now to play certain types of PC's.", is just sort of "soft-core" to me. That doesn't feel like Armageddon or Zalanthas.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 24, 2013, 10:29:40 AM
There is still cannabalism, infanticide and (what I liked best about GG) a general willingness to step past people's boundaries and be mean. It doesn't sound as horrifying. It actually does make people uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 24, 2013, 10:40:38 AM
There is still cannabalism, infanticide and (what I liked best about GG) a general willingness to step past people's boundaries and be mean. It doesn't sound as horrifying. It actually does make people uncomfortable.
Even I will admit this sounds a bit wimpy when you say it out loud. But it really can be disconcerting when someone violates the norms that are taken for granted.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Inks on December 24, 2013, 10:43:43 AM
I'm for banning PC rape plots,  but against banning it and being able to mention it in a vnpc way, as desertman said. I am really worried soon we won't be able to cut out someone's eye and such.

I have never played a rapist and it doesn't interest me but I dunno,  I guess imms have been seeing a lot of rape lately and they see the big picture, I am a bit worried about the world seeming less scary though.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Lizzie on December 24, 2013, 10:45:00 AM
There is still cannabalism, infanticide and (what I liked best about GG) a general willingness to step past people's boundaries and be mean. It doesn't sound as horrifying. It actually does make people uncomfortable.

There's still cannabalism, infanticide, and the willingness to be mean, until the next wave of over- and under- sensitive players shows up and butt heads. This didn't used to be a big issue. Sometimes change is a good thing. Sometimes, it's nothing more than the slippery slope to Disneyfication. I think we're right on the edge of that slope. I really hope we don't spiral down.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 24, 2013, 10:47:52 AM
I am usually the first to poo poo such changes but considering I've never seen a rape in 10+ years and only heard about it maybe three times I can barely muster a "meh".

From recent experience I blame us players for doing it then treating it with our Western values. "OMHL he's a rapist, do something!" Mob ensues and hijacks all other role play while filthy witches run free, slaves are maimed and beaten bloody, murderers stack up the pile, and everyone ignores the small children with bloated bellies starving in the blazing sun.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 10:55:10 AM
Slippery slope is a fallacious argument in this case. There is a "middle ground" in that staff isn't seeking to ban other types of plots or actions, nor do they have a habit of doing so. They are not even focused on rape per se, just in eliminating the abuse of rape as a plot device in the game. If the only sure way to do that is to ban its use then that is how it should be.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 10:59:30 AM
Slippery slope is a fallacious argument in this case. There is a "middle ground" in that staff isn't seeking to ban other types of plots or actions, nor do they have a habit of doing so. They are not even focused on rape per se, just in eliminating the abuse of rape as a plot device in the game. If the only sure way to do that is to ban its use then that is how it should be.


- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.


I bolded the areas that are being eliminated from the game regardless of the fact they wouldn't be PC to PC plot devices. They would be PC to VNPC/NPC plot devices, and atmospheric at best.

I suppose I could sit around roleplaying my entire storyline with my VNPC rape offenders/victims, but, I doubt I would be submitting requests to have resolutions put in place to keep my VNPC and NPC offenders from offending me further, since I sort of control them.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: boog on December 24, 2013, 11:08:28 AM
I can see why it was stopped, staffwise. I admin(ned) on other games that don't EVER allow this sort of thing and when it crops up once every half a decade, it's a PITA to deal with.

But, then, I can also see the players' views, that is has eliminated a facet of a harsh world and that it stifles character development and the fact to be scared of a certain part of the world.

Being a victim of this IRL has never made me reluctant about it happening in game, but I can certainly see how it would for other players. I most certainly could.

So, I dunno. I'm on the "I don't know what I'm fighting for," argument with D-man here.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 11:12:38 AM
So, I dunno. I'm on the "I don't know what I'm fighting for," argument with D-man here.

Yeah. I'm not fighting for being able to rape pc's. I would actually fight for not being able to rape pc's. I'm not sure why that wasn't removed a long time ago.

Removing references to rape from the game world all together even when pc's aren't involved seems like our own version of book burning for the purpose of removing an idea, and not removing a unsafe situation for the purposes of protecting a player.

Someone used the term "Disneyfication" earlier. Which is a new one for me. But, it seems to fit.

I can't see how eliminating VNPC/NPC references to rape from the game is going to further lighten the staff's workload. How can someone submit a complaint when they aren't even involved in the rape to begin with, because the rape never happened to them, and never included their PC in any way?

That isn't a practical application for the purpose of a defined measurable result. That is a witch hunt/the thought police.

(Unless staff gets a lot of complaints from players who don't want those VNPC's and NPC's to be raping/being raped. If that is the case. Then I'm completely wrong.)

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 24, 2013, 11:20:44 AM
If playing a good villain was merely who can be the most "shocking" personality, then we'd have a lineup of weirdo child molesters every time you walk into the Gaj.  Thankfully, it's not.  We don't.

The vast majority of art, literature and media have never included rape, or only use it as an impetus for conflict, while fleshing out greater issues.  There's a reason for that:  most of us just don't need that in our lives.  A rare few might even be psychologically disturbed by it.  The occasional jollies of being a true disgustoid doesn't make an equal case against human suffering, sorry.

I'm glad this has been banned.  I was never directly involved in these plots, but I heard of them on occasion, and I can't say I understood the appeal.  If all we're losing is a character or two pretending to be Alex from A Clockwork Orange--  so be it!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 24, 2013, 11:23:29 AM
To add to the more recent discussion of "why can't we reference rape?"  One has to think that, simply by the odds, there are players of this game who have been raped in RL.  You wouldn't be that douche who walked up to them, and said, "Hey, I heard you got raped!"  I think it would be just as rude to subject them to similar feelings while they're enjoying a game.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 24, 2013, 11:24:36 AM
What's staff position on threatening to sell someone to one of the  slaver houses for the purposes of mul creation? While the exact mechanics are something of an IC mystery, nothing I've heard or read about them suggest being made a mul mother is anything pleasant.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 24, 2013, 11:27:39 AM
I don't think I like the way rape is becoming a forbidden topic IC due to this change. At first, I assumed the act itself was forbidden, then accusations were to be forbidden because of that, but I didn't realize we would have rape become an entirely virtual affair on Zalanthas that doesn't exist around us. You can say it exists in the virtual population, but you'll never be faced with it, and it'll slowly become something that just doesn't come into play for you and others while in this gritty, murderous, corrupt world that we call Zalanthas.
I doubt many players will be willing to push the envelope with threats and such these days. And if you were going be to raped, wasn't Fade to Black an option that took away the gritty details, and just left you with, "You've been raped. Role-play accordingly."

From recent experience I blame us players for doing it then treating it with our Western values. "OMHL he's a rapist, do something!" Mob ensues and hijacks all other role play while filthy witches run free, slaves are maimed and beaten bloody, murderers stack up the pile, and everyone ignores the small children with bloated bellies starving in the blazing sun.

+1
Crime is commonplace, children starve to death in the streets, and rape is a common occurrence, but people have allowed rape to become the single most vile act there is in this game because of RL feelings on the subject. I've never understood, even in RL, how rape is considered so much more vile than that of a child starving to death, torture of another human being, or generalized murder. These are all just as painful, and just as mentally debilitating, in my opinion. We've become so desensitized to these things that murder, torture, and children starving in this game doesn't bother anybody, but rape is crossing the line and that's what makes you cringe.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 11:31:50 AM
Disneyfication

"Disneyfication"

Armageddon, the game that allows characters to be thieves, alcoholics, prostitutes, corrupted officials, political schemers, gang members, drug dealers, raiders, torturers, traitors to the government, defilers and murderers is suddenly a Disneyfied game for wusses because it scrubbed rape out of the picture. You'll excuse me if I don't think that even merits a response beyond  ::).

There's so much to do in this game that is considered "bad". The vast majority of players are creative individuals who can make those activities work for themselves and other people in this game, which still remains true to its tagline. Can we focus more on "murder, corruption, betrayal" and less on cheap shock value to make this a better game overall? I personally think we can.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 24, 2013, 11:32:41 AM
"You've been raped. Role-play accordingly."

I think exactly the problem is that some people do NOT want to roleplay a rape victim.  That is why you've always been able to flat out decline it--  just like torture and dismemberment.  I have to say, though, I read that in your avatar's voice, and I snickered.

The question here, though, has to be:  are we really losing anything?  I mean, c'mon ...
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 11:33:34 AM
Disneyfication

"Disneyfication"

Armageddon, the game that allows characters to be thieves, alcoholics, prostitutes, corrupted officials, political schemers, gang members, drug dealers, raiders, torturers, traitors to the government, defilers and murderers is suddenly a Disneyfied game for wusses because it scrubbed rape out of the picture. You'll excuse me if I don't think that even merits a response beyond  ::).

There's so much to do in this game that is considered "bad". The vast majority of players are creative individuals who can make those activities work for themselves and other people in this game, which still remains true to its tagline. Can we focus more on "murder, corruption, betrayal" and less on cheap shock value to make this a better game overall? I personally think we can.

 ::)

I've already touched on this idea. So I don't feel a need to respond to it further.

I've said everything I can here. So I will leave the post be.

In five years maybe we will ban torture or references to torture. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

Five years after that we might be able to ban genocide. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

Eventually we can be "better" than that so much, that we will be better in ever regard to western ideas of morality.

So on and so forth.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: i love toilets on December 24, 2013, 11:35:52 AM
I've never seen a rape in 10+ years and only heard about it maybe three times

I knew about a serial rapist who played out that plotline with at least four people, most likely more, caused quite a stir in a particular pc community with a disproportionate number of victims, I knew about one other who trapped a woman in his apartment with the idea that the other player could either die or live and be raped, and there was this one player who tried stuff on me without consent--- didn't back off after one comment from me that meant stop which I guess they identified as not actually meaning stop, and then I told them to stop again and they backed down. I didn't report them, given the situation I think I should have, and I'm somewhat sure they are now in a leadership role.

Given what I've seen of it, in initial and further backgrounds and being in circles with victims and rapists alike, rape isn't even really a good plot tool. Its a plot tool, sure. But it has never been played as a good one, except in the case of supreme revenge (which can be stirred through several other means), but it still isolates the rapist with every incident, even from the circle which would think of him as on their side. The more I think about it, the more I'm glad that its gone.

Question. Say that a Kuraci family member or whatever says, if anyone takes these rubies out of the house vault, I'm going to cut your heads off, spike them on my spear, and then take an actual spear and plant it outside the Gaj. And say those rubies are still there, or some of them are, as of this writing. Do we pretend they didn't say that? Or do we accept that they said that before, and now don't mean it or mention it anymore?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 11:39:18 AM
Disneyfication

"Disneyfication"

Armageddon, the game that allows characters to be thieves, alcoholics, prostitutes, corrupted officials, political schemers, gang members, drug dealers, raiders, torturers, traitors to the government, defilers and murderers is suddenly a Disneyfied game for wusses because it scrubbed rape out of the picture. You'll excuse me if I don't think that even merits a response beyond  ::).

There's so much to do in this game that is considered "bad". The vast majority of players are creative individuals who can make those activities work for themselves and other people in this game, which still remains true to its tagline. Can we focus more on "murder, corruption, betrayal" and less on cheap shock value to make this a better game overall? I personally think we can.

 ::)

I've already touched on this idea. So I don't feel a need to respond to it further.

I've said everything I can here. So I will leave the thread be.

In five years maybe we will ban torture or references to torture. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

Five years after that we might be able to ban genocide. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

So on and so forth.

Well, I already said why the slippery slope argument is bullshit. But I can agree to disagree with you on this point.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 11:40:26 AM
Disneyfication

"Disneyfication"

Armageddon, the game that allows characters to be thieves, alcoholics, prostitutes, corrupted officials, political schemers, gang members, drug dealers, raiders, torturers, traitors to the government, defilers and murderers is suddenly a Disneyfied game for wusses because it scrubbed rape out of the picture. You'll excuse me if I don't think that even merits a response beyond  ::).

There's so much to do in this game that is considered "bad". The vast majority of players are creative individuals who can make those activities work for themselves and other people in this game, which still remains true to its tagline. Can we focus more on "murder, corruption, betrayal" and less on cheap shock value to make this a better game overall? I personally think we can.

 ::)

I've already touched on this idea. So I don't feel a need to respond to it further.

I've said everything I can here. So I will leave the post be.

In five years maybe we will ban torture or references to torture. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

Five years after that we might be able to ban genocide. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

So on and so forth.

Well, I already said why the slippery slope argument is bullshit. But I can agree to disagree with you on this point.

I'm fine with that.

(Also I appreciate that you can have an objective conversation about this sort of thing without getting bent out of shape. I think this thread is a shining example of our playerbase's ability to have a rational discussion even when potentially inflammatory topics are at hand, so far.)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: williamson on December 24, 2013, 11:54:10 AM
I guess I'm in the minority. It's kind of sad that the staff has been forced to do this. In twenty years of play, I've never had a PC raped or raped another PC. I can recall being ordered by a PC templar to hold down a criminal that was tortured with some PG sexual tones. I really don't care about rape being banned. My main objection is that it now seems illegal to threaten someone with rape or sexual torture. The libertarian in me is strongly against limitations in speech. When you ban speech, it creates a huge gray area. What if you contact your nemesis and psi "You bastard! I'm gonna fuck you up." That statement could mean different things to different people. Additionally, "sexual torture" is a pretty broad term.

Here are two examples that come to mind that may or may not be illegal now. You be the judge.

1) My PC and another guy kidnap an Allanaki noble. We ask her to give us all her belongings and she refuses. We beat her unconscious, strip her naked, cut off her ear, and leave her alone in the tablelands without any possessions. She survives and returns to Allanak. There was no sexual abuse or mention of it. Is being involuntarily stripped naked sexual abuse?

2) While playing a noble, my annoying aide says he wants to go and work for someone else after giving a life oath to the House. I summon my underlings and we drag him into the elementalist quarter where we involuntarily tattoo him with elementalist tattoos on every possible tattoo location. Afterwords, I tell him he's free to work for whomever he wants and dismiss him from the House. Is being involuntarily tattooed all over your body sexual abuse?

Victim #1 survived and ended up putting bounties on us. Conflict, drama, and fun ensued. Victim #2 stored, perhaps he would have filed a complaint?

Hopefully, this ban will reduce the number of player complaints and staff workload dealing with it. I'd like to remind everyone that the staff don't volunteer to their time to police the game. They do it to have fun like everyone else. Please don't ruin their fun, because like a lot of things, fun-busting runs downhill. If someone is violating the rules, try a friendly OOC or OOC psi reminder. They may be new or forgetting to ask for consent. I'd wager that this simple step could eliminate a lot of staff and player headaches. If this doesn't work AND it's a big deal to you, log the event and send it to the staff. If you find that you're sending in a lot of player and staff complaints (and by a lot I mean more than one every five years), I have some advice. You might want to try some of the other muds out there. Maybe they're more your speed? I hear there is one where you can fight smurfs.

(http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110823233611/smurfsfanon/images/d/da/Papa_Smurf_Vic_George.jpg)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: valeria on December 24, 2013, 11:56:44 AM
For various reasons already discussed by other players in detail, I'm not really in support of this change.  I feel that it takes away from the harshness of the game world.  However, I can see why staff might not want to put more time and energy into policing something that has, for the reason of the immaturity of a small portion of the player base, turned into a disproportionate problem.

My understanding extends to banning rape plotlines and PC on PC accusations of rape.  I can see how those could create too much drama to be worth it.  But I don't see the reason for extending it to saying that my character can't be virtually prowling dark alleys to virtually victimize vNPCs, or saying that I can't talk about the rape that occurred in my character's background.  To me that's taking it past the point where the benefits to staff justify the censorship to character development.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 24, 2013, 11:59:30 AM
I've never seen a rape in 10+ years and only heard about it maybe three times
Given what I've seen of it, in initial and further backgrounds and being in circles with victims and rapists alike, rape isn't even really a good plot tool. Its a plot tool, sure. But it has never been played as a good one, except in the case of supreme revenge (which can be stirred through several other means), but it still isolates the rapist with every incident, even from the circle which would think of him as on their side. The more I think about it, the more I'm glad that its gone.

I can't say that I've ever seen a plotline improved by accusations of rape, much less an actual act. Whenever it came up the same life-disruption, vileness and dread could have been (and indeed, was) conveyed through plenty of other non-sexual behavior. The accusations unfortunately only became an OOC distraction, requiring some staff back-and-forth.

Then again, I remember someone on the board recounting the fate of their hapless Borsail aide, who was turned over to the mul-birthing division (and presumably stored) as a punishment of  their lord after he botched an assassination plot. That's always stuck with me as the most horrifying and Zalanthan ending to a character I've heard of.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 24, 2013, 12:03:41 PM

My understanding extends to banning rape plotlines and PC on PC accusations of rape.  I can see how those could create too much drama to be worth it.  But I don't see the reason for extending it to saying that my character can't be virtually prowling dark alleys to virtually victimize vNPCs, or saying that I can't talk about the rape that occurred in my character's background.  To me that's taking it past the point where the benefits to staff justify the censorship to character development.

Yes, I also wonder why the ban extends go the virtual world. I wonder if there was more going on than we saw that made this nessesary.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Eurynomos on December 24, 2013, 12:05:08 PM
I never thought banning rape would be 'Disneyfying' the game.

C'mon guys -- We aren't going to ban you scooping out people's eyeballs, or torturing them in jail cells. The game isn't getting any less 'harsh' by us making rape virtual.

I'll gladly say this as well - If you want to play out rape scenes and be a rapist, or gladly talk about rape and 'need your rape', here is a great website:

www.mudconnector.com
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:07:34 PM
I never thought banning rape would be 'Disneyfying' the game.

C'mon guys -- We aren't going to ban you scooping out people's eyeballs, or torturing them in jail cells. The game isn't getting any less 'harsh' by us making rape virtual.

I'll gladly say this as well - If you want to play out rape scenes and be a rapist, or gladly talk about rape and 'need your rape', here is a great website:

www.mudconnector.com

The people who said it was "Disneyfying" never said they were against banning rape.

They said they were against banning the idea and concept universally from the game as an atmospheric which had nothing to do with pc on pc rape bans.

I believe all parties on the "Disneyfying" train were actually pro-rape ban.


Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: boog on December 24, 2013, 12:07:48 PM
But rape can't be virtual, as I'd read it?

Maybe it's just my speed reading of what's been added as policy, though. Kids, illness, and all.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yummri on December 24, 2013, 12:08:42 PM
I've played other games where rape has been outright banned. You could not play the victim, you could not play the rapist and accusing others of it would get you banned. And they advertised brutality, murder and corruption and the game was extremely harsh.

Do I think it should become taboo to mention it? No, but accusing others and taking part in it most definitely.

The world as a whole has become desensitised to things like murder, torture, theft simply because of media and other conditioning. Rape is much more personal. A theft isn't violent usually. Once dead the victim of a murder feels no pain and video games, books and other such things have featured it for years. It is the same with torture. Since the medieval times and before torture has been a part of culture and a way to extract information then glorified in films like SAW.

These things can make the game harsh and have their place in the game world. I don't see rape as having its place beyond background noise. Should you as players pretend you are suddenly safe? hell no because it is possible, you just don't hear of it happening. Maybe the Templars have a way of knowing and silencing the talk. its bad for staff, its bad for players. There are plenty of other ways to be a villain without sinking to this level. Be the guy/girl who murders not the person you hate, but instead destroys everything they cherish till it breaks them. Anything is better than rape.

I fully agree with Cutthroat. This is now slippery slope. There will not be future plot bannings for murder and torture. In 3 months I've seen and heard of this a good few times. That is more than I ever wanted to have to deal with it. Does that make me over-sensitive or a wus? No it doesn't. I rather enjoy graphic violence. The more detail the better. But its a game and that is vile even in game.

Could staff clear up my original question. If not in this thread than in a PM please? Thank you.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: i love toilets on December 24, 2013, 12:09:19 PM
Then again, I remember someone on the board recounting the fate of their hapless Borsail aide, who was turned over to the mul-birthing division (and presumably stored) as a punishment of  their lord after he botched an assassination plot. That's always stuck with me as the most horrifying and Zalanthan ending to a character I've heard of.

Holy crap, that's right.

What are we going to say about mul birthing?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:11:24 PM
Then again, I remember someone on the board recounting the fate of their hapless Borsail aide, who was turned over to the mul-birthing division (and presumably stored) as a punishment of  their lord after he botched an assassination plot. That's always stuck with me as the most horrifying and Zalanthan ending to a character I've heard of.

Holy crap, that's right.

What are we going to say about mul birthing?

You won't say anything about it. Ever.

Unless we are going to put in some "acceptable sex that leads to death but isn't rape" disclaimers.

Which is so Twilight Zone as to be comical.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Eurynomos on December 24, 2013, 12:11:56 PM
But rape can't be virtual, as I'd read it?

Maybe it's just my speed reading of what's been added as policy, though. Kids, illness, and all.

You cannot use rape as a plot device.

The topics Williamson mentioned above (#1 and #2) are not rape.

If you are are selling someone off to Slavery, they are going to be stored (Akin to killing them, in that their life as a PC is ending and becoming virtual). As they are entering the virtual world, whatever happens behind the scenes happens behind the scenes. Threatening someone with sending them to the mul-birthing program is vague enough that I think it's fine (It's slavery too after all).
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:13:37 PM
My assumption is that pleasure slaves are no longer a thing.

I would also assume that all references to rinth prostitution must now be wholesome and on the level with all parties enjoying the interaction and the correct payment always being administered regardless.

I would also assume all parties have to be sober.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Eurynomos on December 24, 2013, 12:19:03 PM
Not paying for sex /= rape. Pleasure slaves /= rape. I think you guys can figure out what is actually rape, and what is not rape. If you have a question of 'what is rape' when you are in a situation in game, you can wish up and ask for clarification.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 12:19:23 PM
I think you are still allowed to discuss your background IG even if it contains themes of rape in it. It looks like what is specifically being banned is:

- The act of rape (which previously required consent for both the RP and the actual plotline having taken place)
- Accusing other people of rape (which was previously allowed)

That's it. As such, the concept of rape as a plot device (specifically to target other v/N/PCs with rape or the accusation of rape) is gone. Rape still exists in the virtual world. It exists in backgrounds, to say that one of your PC's parents raped the other, to say that your PC was a rapist in the past or that your PC was raped in the past. But that background information can't then be used to create a plot, e.g. by putting in your background that a templar raped you and now your dwarf focus is to kill all templars.

Discussing a background with themes of rape is still okay, so long as you don't use your background to start a plot related to rape.

At least that is how I understand everything said by staff so far. Correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Eurynomos on December 24, 2013, 12:21:15 PM
That is 100% correct, Cutthroat.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yummri on December 24, 2013, 12:25:37 PM
*sighing* I'm sure I'll figure it out if it comes up.

*gives everyone a piece of birthday cake* I is my birthday. I would share my real cake if it would make everyone happy.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:26:21 PM

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.


I think you are still allowed to discuss your background IG even if it contains themes of rape in it. It looks like what is specifically being banned is:

- The act of rape (which previously required consent for both the RP and the actual plotline having taken place)
- Accusing other people of rape (which was previously allowed)

That's it.

That is 100% correct, Cutthroat.

........

(http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/diy-turbo-discussion-14/96179-fic-injector-black-friday-sale-maybe-futurama-fry-not-sure-if-jpg?dateline=1386010780)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 24, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
To add to the more recent discussion of "why can't we reference rape?"  One has to think that, simply by the odds, there are players of this game who have been raped in RL.  You wouldn't be that douche who walked up to them, and said, "Hey, I heard you got raped!"  I think it would be just as rude to subject them to similar feelings while they're enjoying a game.

I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 24, 2013, 12:31:02 PM
Some would consider being told to stop, or being told no and doing it anyway would be rape. In that case, about a third of the mudsex my characters have found themselves in, they were being raped... Although, huh, after a minute or two they quickly changed their minds on the whole "no" thing, so I guess there's that. Yeah, the whole concept of what can willingly consent and cannot gives me pause, can you accuse someone of kanking their mount, even in jest?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 24, 2013, 12:31:37 PM
if a soldier type PC is saying that then we probably aren't going to ban them. But then, it's really not that hard to just say  "I want to go murder, and pillage the enemy holdings and citizenry!", is it?

A vicious snarl, spittle flying from his lips as he turns, his voice just barely audible over the roar of the surrounding armies, the scariest motherfucker you ever done seen shouts, in southern-accented sirihish: "We are going to charge these motherfucking gates! We are gonna kill these motherfuckin' Tulukis, we are gonna put Utep's head on a fucking pike, and we are gonna burn their motherfucking city to the motherfucking ground! And to celebrate, we're gonna ravage the buttocks of every fuckin' survivor! Anyone who runs will need t'prepare for the ultimate skull pillaging of a lifetime! Have I made myself clear, motherfuckers?

It's not hard, but I'm curious as to whether or not this kinda thing is still allowed, and are we allowed to switch out 'ravage' and 'pillaging' with 'rape the *naughty-parts*,' and then 'ultimate skull pillaging' with 'ultimate skull f@#&ing' as we see fit?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: boog on December 24, 2013, 12:33:04 PM

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.


I think you are still allowed to discuss your background IG even if it contains themes of rape in it. It looks like what is specifically being banned is:

- The act of rape (which previously required consent for both the RP and the actual plotline having taken place)
- Accusing other people of rape (which was previously allowed)

That's it.

That is 100% correct, Cutthroat.

........

(http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/diy-turbo-discussion-14/96179-fic-injector-black-friday-sale-maybe-futurama-fry-not-sure-if-jpg?dateline=1386010780)

Okay. Good. I'm not insane for/alone in thinking the same thing.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: lordcooper on December 24, 2013, 12:33:43 PM
While I agree that a rule like this might be necessary for the comfort of a few players, I do find it a bit sad that this is the case.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:34:08 PM
While I agree that a rule like this might be necessary for the comfort of a few players, I do find it a bit sad that this is the case.

I know of one player who had a family member who was brutally murdered, with a bludgeoning weapon.

I wonder what would happen if they sent in complaints about seeing murder in the game.

If they did I wonder if we would give them the same emotional backing and implement rules to make the game "for them".  

Of course the answer is no. I'm just making a point. At what point do we decide one group should be protected from volunteering to be involved in something and when another group shouldn't?

I wonder how many war veterans we have playing who really wouldn't care to see the torture scenes or references to torture? That one probably hits closer to home.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 24, 2013, 12:35:58 PM
Quote
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.

Let me modify this a little. If it's in your background you can use it as internal motivation, the moment you externalize it, it becomes an in game storyline.  Let's say you talk to Amos about your PCs rapist/rapist father etc. You give some vague description that happens to fit Malik.  Next thing Malik becomes part of a smear campaign. Others learn of it, Malik becomes a target, Malik is now not only confused and a target, he's been made a part of a rape storyline that he did not agree to.  Malik has an issue with this. Staff spend copious hours trying to work out what is happening here,.  Sounds like bullshit? No, this has happened.

Dealing with this stuff is annoying.  We don't like to do it.  We have been doing it for years with the consent rule.  Personally, I don't care at all if you have played this kind of storyline, have it in your background, whatever.  What I do care about is the time it takes for staff to sort out issues and the fact that several staff members asked for this policy to be reviewed. We reviewed it, we discussed it, a consensus was reached that it is easier to just ban this outright. Producers backed this consensus.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 24, 2013, 12:38:21 PM
Please stop fearmongering about other forms of 'harshness' being removed from the game.  This is a very specific incidence that has become an issue for more than the reason than that people have RL trauma over it.

This is a staff management issue.  This is a decision to help the staff. 

On the other hand staff are more than happy to kill your PCs over and over and over again and we will continue to be happy to do so.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: DxGrief on December 24, 2013, 12:40:00 PM
Wow... I can just say wow.  What the heck did I come back to? :-\

I haven't played in a while but it seems like ARM upped it's degenerate scale.  As a female gamer, it seems the default form of abuse males dish out is rape across all platforms.  I've been threatened more times with it on CoD and Halo than I care to count and I assume some of these pervs were under 16.  I've never encountered a rape instance in any of my characters.  As an rp tool, I would request a fade to black or just walk away from the screen until it was done if I wasn't allowed to (yeah, let me know when you're done..am I going to live or am I seeing the mantis head?)

I'm torn because if a PC wants to be all pervy and solo emote raping an NPC, other than the disgust factor of the staff watching said PC, I have no issue with NPC or virtual raping.  I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that most of the rapists are male and that their targets were most likely females and not other males.  Just sayin'

As far as PC vs PC rape, was consent not given?  Was FTB not allowed?  I think the staff should absolutely step in and BURN offending PC if the rules were violated.  I'm lending to the belief that some PCs were doing this way too often for comfort.  I love toilets already alluded to a PC doing just this and still being allowed to play (sorry bastage...you should have lost your character and right to play).  Also, there seems to be alot more minor (read: under 18) players in the game.  With minors playing rapist and victim is just ick...ick.. ick..  As a parent, I would have big issues with a game my minor kid plays where they are taking on these roles repeatedly.  

Creative PK and general beat downs/torture should be du jour in ARM. Oh yeah and make the game rated M for mature and 18+. Just my 2 sids.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:41:00 PM
(In reply to Adhira.)

I'm saddened the playerbase has reached the point they would actually send in player complaints about something like that.

But I believe you, and I actually understand where you are coming from.

Thanks a lot jackholes.

I still think it is Disneyfication for the purpose of coddling those souls who actually sent in complaints about the sort of thing you referenced above.

I'm sad we have got to a point where we will make changes to keep those sorts of people around, instead of tell them,

"Armageddon is harsh. Sorry friend. Please don't submit needless complaints like this because they are a hassle for staff and aren't needed."
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: armandhammer on December 24, 2013, 12:43:35 PM
A more elegant solution may have been to deny audience to any rape-related requests/complaints, in the same way most PK-related requests/complaints are handled (or not handled)

If fear of being accused of rape (in a player complaint) manifests itself the way it does in real-life, for me, my PCs will be unable to do the dirty. Plain and simple, and based on an OOC fear.

Fear of rape-related lawsuit is too real, for me. Too real.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Refugee on December 24, 2013, 12:43:52 PM
Just for all you guys saying in many years, you've not heard of rape, in just the last, oh, 5 or 6 months, I've had to deal with 3 PC on PC "alleged" rapes so far.  Not as one of the primary players but as a periphery actor after the fact.  That's just what one PC sees.  Imagine the world over.

I don't like the spot it puts me in as a player.  I don't enjoy watching the victim RP suffering, especially if she does a good job of it.  I don't want to watch it.  There's nothing fun about it.

The primary players seem to store or suicide very soon thereafter, so I think the consequences are not very enjoyable either.  There must be a lot of frustration, anger, and confusion on the part of the players of both parties.  Staff would have to try to deal with a situation where it's impossible to resolve it satisfactorily.

I don't blame them for getting rid of it.  I'm glad it's gone.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:47:23 PM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: lordcooper on December 24, 2013, 12:47:47 PM
I still think it is Disneyfication for the purpose of coddling those souls who actually sent in complaints about the sort of thing you referenced above.

Or maybe it's Disneyfication for the purpose of getting those souls to STFU?  If a few generally good players bitched every time they got something pinched in my D&D campaigns I might be inclined to just drop a blanket ban on thieves after a while.  Not that it really matters either way.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 24, 2013, 12:48:27 PM
Personally, I would never pursue such a plotline against someone else. If it happened to my PC I probably wouldn't complain or ftb (I also wouldn't consider it enjoyable), but that's just me. I understand some have very difficult real life issues involving such activity, and so am in support of such activities being highly discouraged. Removed outright, however, concerns me. Guess someone abused the privileges given to them.

I've heard about such plots IG, really disgusting, disturbing stuff that just made me sick inside, but, it is what it is. Suppose we're all better off without that crap.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:48:51 PM
I still think it is Disneyfication for the purpose of coddling those souls who actually sent in complaints about the sort of thing you referenced above.

Or maybe it's Disneyfication for the purpose of getting those souls to STFU?  If a few generally good players bitched every time they got something pinched in my D&D campaigns I might be inclined to just drop a blanket ban on thieves after a while.  Not that it really matters either way.

If I had those sorts of players. I would find new players.

But, I don't tend to pander to bullshit either.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Malken on December 24, 2013, 12:49:11 PM
Why would you store or suicide a PC after being part of a "rape plot" if you need to consent to it beforehand..?

Don't really care either way about this, by the way, just curious..
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: williamson on December 24, 2013, 12:50:38 PM
I've never seen a rape in 10+ years and only heard about it maybe three times

I knew about a serial rapist who played out that plotline with at least four people, most likely more, caused quite a stir in a particular pc community with a disproportionate number of victims, I knew about one other who trapped a woman in his apartment with the idea that the other player could either die or live and be raped, and there was this one player who tried stuff on me without consent--- didn't back off after one comment from me that meant stop which I guess they identified as not actually meaning stop, and then I told them to stop again and they backed down. I didn't report them, given the situation I think I should have, and I'm somewhat sure they are now in a leadership role.


If rule-breaking happens again, this seems like a great place to use the new quit ooc command.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 24, 2013, 12:52:02 PM
I didn't know there were so many rapists.  Maybe because I play ride around adventurer types.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:53:18 PM
Why would you store or suicide a PC after being part of a "rape plot" if you need to consent to it beforehand..?

Don't really care either way about this, by the way, just curious..

Apparently this had nothing to do with PC's actually being raped. This had to do with people who were never raped by someone being involved in rape plots, and submitting complaints about it.

This caused a lot of staff side work for no reason.

So we wiped the concept from the game.

Sadly the sorts of people who would send in complaints about something like that are probably the sorts who will just go on to complain about something else that doesn't justify a complaint.

I wonder if it will even fix anything.

This sounds like a problem with some players submitting complaints just to complain, and the rape complaint was the one they defaulted to.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 12:54:07 PM
This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: boog on December 24, 2013, 12:55:55 PM
Cheap way to kill PCs?

I mean, we could argue that about a lot of PKs. :/
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Malken on December 24, 2013, 12:57:46 PM
This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.

When most PKs are done "because my PC can use the 16 sids this pair of pants will fetch to feed himself" excuse, I don't buy your "cheap ways to kill PCs" reasoning.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 12:59:28 PM
I would love see some of the complaints that actually led to this rule.

"But, your PC wasn't raped. You can't use the rape complaint if you weren't raped."

"But now people think I might have raped! That isn't fair! I feel violated personally and sort of raped!"

And thus, a rule was born.

Can I call those people stupid and not be labeled as insensitive to rape victims?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ale six on December 24, 2013, 01:00:34 PM
Then again, I remember someone on the board recounting the fate of their hapless Borsail aide, who was turned over to the mul-birthing division (and presumably stored) as a punishment of  their lord after he botched an assassination plot. That's always stuck with me as the most horrifying and Zalanthan ending to a character I've heard of.

That was me. And that death, traumatic though it was at the time, is actually one of the reasons I got hooked on this game. Remembering moments like that is what convinced me to come back after a five year break. But in Reneli's case, nothing about the mul-birthing was roleplayed out at all. They told her what was going to happen, she was led out of the room, and it was curtains/storage. I wouldn't have been comfortable with much beyond that anyway. I think (I hope!) that such things wouldn't be considered off limits under the new policy. (And in the 25 some posts that happened since I started replying, JESUS,, Eurynomos confirmed this is still okay. Cool.)

Another time on the templar I played, I emoted grabbing the ass of an aidey type I was on familiar terms with. I didn't ask for consent beforehand, which was my mistake, and the player I groped took exception to it. Staff shot me a message and asked me to send an apology to the player through them, which I did, and I did genuinely feel bad. I don't get the feeling this would be handled any differently under the new policy, but I just want to mention it because there are grey areas, and what seems okay to some won't be to others. Asking for staff to list out a bunch of okay/not okay activities is going to get messy, so we need to trust them to handle things like this carefully and delicately.

Armageddon is the only game I can think of where the admins will say "Hey, you can't rape people under any circumstances", and it would stir debate. That's a testament to the maturity level and the mindset you need to play here. Disneyland this is not. I won't shed any tears over rape being flat out of bounds between characters.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 01:00:53 PM
Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

That is what I mean. Other RPIs have similar rules about rape, probably for the same reasons. It generates less of a headache for staff trying to sort out what just happened and, again, leaves open other avenues where PCs can act out against each other to achieve the same overall result (maintaining the atmosphere of the game and some end result of a plot).
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yummri on December 24, 2013, 01:01:04 PM
Quote
This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.

This is exactly why it was done to my mind. Everyone just needs to let this go now. What's done is done and the admins already said they weren't blanket banning anything else.

*dusts off his hands*
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: williamson on December 24, 2013, 01:03:15 PM
This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.


"Amos is a rapist magicker."
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 01:03:50 PM
Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.


This deserves a complaint. Not because of rape. Because rape didn't happen.

This deserves a complaint for poor RP/poor player sensitivity to the OOC rules of the game.

It should go this way:

Played 1 OOC: My PC intends to kill yours. You are going to die. You can roleplay the before rape, or fade to black. I am fine either way.
Player 2 OOC: Fair enough. I would prefer to fade and go to the combat.
Player 1 OOC: No problem.

That isn't a rape complaint issue. It should never be filed as one. It does not back this rule.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: allieday1 on December 24, 2013, 01:04:25 PM
Soon we can go in taverns and see npc there with a ? over their head and we can do quest
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Malken on December 24, 2013, 01:04:35 PM
Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

That is what I mean. Other RPIs have similar rules about rape, probably for the same reasons. It generates less of a headache for staff trying to sort out what just happened and, again, leaves open other avenues where PCs can act out against each other to achieve the same overall result (maintaining the atmosphere of the game and some end result of a plot).

10 years ago I would have laughed at you and say that our playerbase would never stoop so low, but I've long lost confidence in the maturity and savoir-vivre of most of them so I buy your reasoning and accept it.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 01:04:46 PM
This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.


"Amos is a rapist magicker."

Summoning the pitchfork mob isn't what I meant, but I should have been more clear, though I tried to clarify that in my previous post.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 24, 2013, 01:05:15 PM
Rape is also definitely an easy way to drum up animosity against a character (which can easily lead to PK). Not that I'll ever apologize for such animosity, I just have a deeper appreciation for other forms of evil-doing roleplay in this game.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: williamson on December 24, 2013, 01:05:24 PM
Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

That is what I mean. Other RPIs have similar rules about rape, probably for the same reasons. It generates less of a headache for staff trying to sort out what just happened and, again, leaves open other avenues where PCs can act out against each other to achieve the same overall result (maintaining the atmosphere of the game and some end result of a plot).

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape torture?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

These problems still exist.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 24, 2013, 01:11:29 PM
Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

That is what I mean. Other RPIs have similar rules about rape, probably for the same reasons. It generates less of a headache for staff trying to sort out what just happened and, again, leaves open other avenues where PCs can act out against each other to achieve the same overall result (maintaining the atmosphere of the game and some end result of a plot).

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape torture?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

These problems still exist.

Nope.

In the case of asking for consent for torture you're asking specifically to RP out the scene of torture. If they don't give consent, they've still been tortured after the FTB is over.

However, in the case of asking for rape consent you are asking to carry out the plot as a whole. If they deny to give consent you've revealed your PC's designs on them and might be inclined for your PC to deal with that somehow, even if such motivations are OOC. At least that was before this new rule. Now this problem is eliminated entirely. With rape being out of the picture, your PC is only allowed to do things to other PCs that don't require advertising that intent beforehand.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Refugee on December 24, 2013, 01:14:07 PM
Why would you store or suicide a PC after being part of a "rape plot" if you need to consent to it beforehand..?

Don't really care either way about this, by the way, just curious..

I can only guess, but I think it probably has to do with consequences on either side being unexpected.  From watching these things play out, I'd guess that people considered the PC thereafter to be unplayable?  Especially for the accused who might not have considered the consequences (and maybe didn't even do the deed).

I'm surprised about D-man's statement that it's not the primary players themselves that have complained.  That's not what I'd've expected.  Although now I think that it's probably clan leaders, who have to deal with this frustrating stuff over and over again.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: flurry on December 24, 2013, 01:14:32 PM
Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

This exact scenario happened to me, but I did not send in a complaint, because I can't know what the Player 1's intent was. (I debated about reporting it anyway, just in case that is Player 1's m.o., and there's a pattern. I didn't though.) I was creeped out, however, by the fact that Player 1 chose to lead off the scene with that consent request, when there was practically no history between the characters, and apparently no plot line being advanced in any way. I still wonder if my character was killed because I didn't indulge Player 1 in a gratuitous rape scene, but only that player knows if that's the case or not.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 24, 2013, 01:18:16 PM
I think this is weak and I don't agree with it, but I will unfortunately have to deal with it.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 01:20:51 PM
I'm just so very disappointed that our playerbase is now the sorts of people who would send in enough complaints about this sort of thing to even warrant the staff to have to take this sort of action.

I have bragged I don't know how many times to people I have introduced to the game that we have the best, most mature, and intelligent playerbase of any game I have ever played.

I won't be able to do that anymore because we apparently have enough people filing false rape complaints, not getting the proper OOC consent ahead of time, and filing other silly nonsense that the staff is having to do universal blanket rules and thought policing/wide scale RP censoring just to keep us from being morons.

I want to apologize to staff on their behalf. Ten years ago, this wouldn't have happened. The game hasn't changed. Only the players.

And with that, I am done with this thread.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: flurry on December 24, 2013, 01:22:29 PM
How are you able to evaluate the merits of the complaints if you aren't privy to them, Desertman?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 24, 2013, 01:23:00 PM
How are you able to evaluate the merits of the complaints if you aren't privy to them, Desertman?

Adhira posted an example of them.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: valeria on December 24, 2013, 01:23:19 PM
You can put that your pc was a rapist in the background. You can't play out being a rapist in game, even if it's purely in mindset and not action.

Just to clarify, the bolded part is where I started to feel like the censorship was taking too much of a turn.  I feel that it removing some of the harshness from the game is simply a fact, because the most evil of evil villains are rapists.

However, I feel that this next part clarified it:

Quote
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.

Let me modify this a little. If it's in your background you can use it as internal motivation, ...

What I feel is fine is not having any PC on PC rape or accusations of rape, and I can see that causing too much trouble for staff.  But banning even having your character thinking about being a rapist, or thinking that one of the benefits of going to war with the neighboring City state might be raping/pillaging, or joking at the Gaj about how it might be a good way to spend the day off by going into the 'rinth to rape some nonspecfic vNPC elves, or whatever... that just seemed like too much censorship to me.  I think under the clarification that is not a problem, though, so, I am relieved.

Having played a character that was in background a rapist (while never involving or even telling other PCs or even doing much more than occasionally thinking about it), I can tell you that I would find not even having the option to even think about rape would be too restrictive.

But, that having been clarified, I can understand the new policy.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 24, 2013, 01:30:12 PM
I'm just so very disappointed that our playerbase is now the sorts of people who would send in enough complaints about this sort of thing to even warrant the staff to have to take this sort of action.

I have bragged I don't know how many times to people I have introduced to the game that we have the best, most mature, and intelligent playerbase of any game I have ever played.

I won't be able to do that anymore because we apparently have enough people filing false rape complaints, not getting the proper OOC consent ahead of time, and filing other silly nonsense that the staff is having to do universal blanket rules and thought policing/wide scale RP censoring just to keep us from being morons.

I want to apologize to staff on their behalf. Ten years ago, this wouldn't have happened. The game hasn't changed. Only the players.

And with that, I am done with this thread.



I think you missed out on some of the suspected (to clarify what -I- suspect) asshattery that probably lead up to this. Which is a good thing.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Eurynomos on December 24, 2013, 01:34:57 PM
We are not going to publicly post any requests related to rape/rape complaints.

Discussion has taken place on this topic -- It seems most of the playerbase is content and glad to see this blanket ban go into effect. Those that aren't, we're sorry. This decision wasn't made lightly, as Calavera pointed out. There are plenty of games out there that allow you to rape/play rapists/people with rapist mindsets. This will not be one of them.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Rathustra on December 24, 2013, 04:13:08 PM
I've re-opened this thread as obviously we need a space for people to work out their frustrations to this change.

I must ask that we keep fear-mongering, 'what-ifs' and hypothetical scenarios to the minimum as there isn't enough staff around during Christmas Eve to address much of these at all. All you'll be doing is creating an echo chamber wherein any lines of discussion will be lost entirely.

I would appreciate everyone also tries to be as courteous as possible to each other. I don't care what a person's opinions are on this change - whether they're for or against - this thread is for both sides to talk it out. But that requires a bit of (gasp) self-censorship and responsibility.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Rathustra on December 24, 2013, 04:31:56 PM
Ok actually now the thread is unlocked because I guess I didn't unlock it properly!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 24, 2013, 04:42:43 PM
I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.

I don't believe these things are congruent.  Death is inevitable, and to an extent, so is prejudice.  Rape and child molestation are the product of a sick individual.  It doesn't matter how you frame it, they're always sickos, and there's no rational explanation for that behavior.  However, murder and prejudice are often necessary in the gameworld of Zalanthas, and that's why we deem it harsh.

Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 24, 2013, 04:45:19 PM
I do believe, though, that those things are part of the world, and that while the ban on roleplaying these things is probably good for the game, perhaps taking any notion of them whatsoever away is taking away from the atmosphere.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 24, 2013, 04:45:42 PM
I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.

I don't believe these things are congruent.  Death is inevitable, and to an extent, so is prejudice.  Rape and child molestation are the product of a sick individual.  It doesn't matter how you frame it, they're always sickos, and there's no rational explanation for that behavior.  However, murder and prejudice are often necessary in the gameworld of Zalanthas, and that's why we deem it harsh.

Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary.

My point to you is that banning it because it makes people uncomfortable with real life experiences doesn't make sense. Why are they playing -this- game? However, the staff has said that it just causes too many problems OOCly. The Staff's stated reason seems well reasonable.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 24, 2013, 04:52:11 PM
I think I was more concerned with the censorship about what you could talk about before the clarification. And personally I don't think censoring people from talking about if it's a slippery slope relieves people's concerns about further censorship.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Majikal on December 24, 2013, 04:54:18 PM
I feel the maturity of the playerbase definitely just took a hit. More kid gloves. I've played rapists and I've played folks that have been raped. Both times were enjoyable experiences in the effect of storyline. If you can't roll with the punches on a mature RPI mud and you feel that ooc consent/ooc quit and the wish command isn't enough to protect your delicate mind from offensive storylines, then you settled on the wrong one.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 24, 2013, 04:54:36 PM
re:  KankWhisperer

Ah, right.  Perhaps.  Let's just say, then, that it's a benefit of this ruling.  Censorship is a different beast, of course.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: slvrmoontiger on December 24, 2013, 04:59:13 PM
I'd like to make a suggestion that a new help file go into place that is referred to in the Consent one. It would go along these lines.

Rape                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Rules)

Rape is information that can only be included in a character's background. Its is not allowable for In Character Roleplay.

Rape is to be considered any sexual action towards another character (be it PC, NPC, or VNPC) that is considered to be of sexual nature.
This is to include, but is not limited to: kissing, fondling, groping, and penetration.

Any instances of rape will result in character storage and a request being opened to discuss things with the instigating player.

See Also: Consent

Of course wording probably needs to be worked on. My point however is I as do a few other players from what I am seeing in the various posts in this forum and others related suggest that it would be a better idea to come down on a hard definition. I believe doing this will also save a lot of stupid requests going in and wasting staff's time to figure out what is what.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Patuk on December 24, 2013, 05:00:53 PM
It just really, really, really irks me that this ban is necessary, and that those responsible for it might 'get away,' so to speak.

Somewhere out there, there's people who RP'd rape without according to even the previous, more lenient rules. I don't like that, and I really hope they got banned for all their worth.

But also out there is a bunch of whiteknighting douchebags who had nothing better to do than clog staff with reports about allegations of rape, giving them far more work looking into situations than they might be comfortable with.

Don't tell me I don't know about the second group: I know for a fact that such a situation has happened once before, and I very much doubt it was an isolated case. I also very heavily doubt that such extreme measures are going to help in the case of such inconsiderate people.

At the end of the day, what I resent is good people being barred from RP they may or may not wish to participate in, with the people responsible for it none the worse for wear and not held back from their silliness at all.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Refugee on December 24, 2013, 05:01:06 PM
Quote from: 26 Dollars
"Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary."
Hear hear, 26 Dollars!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 24, 2013, 05:02:57 PM
After a bit of thought this is why I fear a slippery slope. Staff has stated that they didn't ban this activity because it violated personal principles or principles of the setting. They are banning it because it takes up too much Staff resources better spent elsewhere. Who knows what thing we players will start doing that takes up more than its fair share of resources next? It seems in the realm of possibility that something else could be next.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 24, 2013, 05:07:21 PM
I get that taking the actual playing out of such scenes solves a lot of OOC drama for the staff caused by a loud and idiotic minority of players. I don't get why we need to get rid of rape and sexual torture as things that can be so much as discussed, used as a threat, or hell, even played out virtually. That just seems to soften the world to a point that makes Armageddon feel much less like Armageddon to me. I remember a 'tough-girl' sort of character of mine musing with another about Nobles who have more power than them, but are physically weaker as well. The conversation got rather lewd, as conversations on Zalanthas have a way of doing, and specific PC nobility were mentioned, although everything was entirely hypothetical and understood as such. I suppose now such a discussion would get me stored? That seems oddly un-Armageddonlike, to me.

Anyway, just my two 'sids. I'll play by these new rules, of course, but I feel like censoring what sort of mindset my character can or cannot have or what they can or cannot talk about (even when the mindsets or discussion topics follow logically from the world and events around them) is something I may be unable to do. Though I've never played out or even faded a rape scene, I fear violating these rules entirely accidentally, since staff posts are somewhat contradicting themselves at this point and are setting rather blurry lines.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 24, 2013, 05:09:40 PM
Honestly, I've never had the desire to pursue a scene involving rape, and it kind of turns my stomach, but it gives my characters an excellent reason to hate other characters, which is something I struggle to find while playing. I personally wouldn't fade such a scene if it were happening to my character, though I probably wouldn't enjoy it. There have been some, uh, questionable things which have happened to my characters, who may have been unwilling but it happened anyway, and just maybe they weren't so unhappy with it afterwards, I would support a person's right to object to such treatment of their character, though I would not myself, as it becomes another important experience in my character's existence, something they remember the next time Amosa, Malik and/or Derpina try to lure them away somewhere quiet. I guess it all depends on where you draw the line and say, "This here is allowed, and this isn't.", as there seem to be many, many shades between black and white.

Another concern, previously voiced, that gives one pause is, where did the half-elves come from, then? (this is more a recommendation for a fix should rape continue to be a bannable offense and has little to do with my opinion on the matter) I suppose the documentation on taboos could be loosened a little to allow for it to happen very rarely, make it so elves, humans and breeds get along better, but then, where's the fun in playing a breed? Where's the fun in your elf and their human mate trying desperately to hide a relationship when they can't stop eying the other in the bar and blushing? Well, I guess if the documentation allowed it to happen willingly slightly more often, there wouldn't be the added fear that you're doing completely the wrong thing by playing out these scenarios. I personally report all my improper doings, but I worry staff will tire of me -always- doing the wrong thing. If more than one person is doing it (and trust me, it's not unique), then it isn't a unique snowflake situation, though it is somewhat rare. I guess the social consequences needn't change, but perhaps it could be a more accepted way of playing from an OOC perspective.

I know it works on Prpi, with few problems (other than no one really plays anymore), but again, it depends on how you define what is, and isn't against the rules, I think.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 24, 2013, 05:14:29 PM
After a bit of thought this is why I fear a slippery slope. Staff has stated that they didn't ban this activity because it violated personal principles or principles of the setting. They are banning it because it takes up too much Staff resources better spent elsewhere. Who knows what thing we players will start doing that takes up more than its fair share of resources next? It seems in the realm of possibility that something else could be next.

Maybe the problem is the player complaint tool (and by proxy, the players who abuse it).  I've never once had to use the complaint tool, though I've felt justified at least once (and received communication from staff to let me know I was within rights).

One wonders if the same subset of players will continue to abuse the complaint tool, or if this was merely a matter of rape being too sensitive for this group dynamic (we are getting a lot of newer players, these days).
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 24, 2013, 05:17:47 PM
I remember a 'tough-girl' sort of character of mine musing with another about Nobles who have more power than them, but are physically weaker as well. The conversation got rather lewd, as conversations on Zalanthas have a way of doing, and specific PC nobility were mentioned, although everything was entirely hypothetical and understood as such. I suppose now such a discussion would get me stored? That seems oddly un-Armageddonlike, to me.

Anyway, just my two 'sids. I'll play by these new rules, of course, but I feel like censoring what sort of mindset my character can or cannot have or what they can or cannot talk about (even when the mindsets or discussion topics follow logically from the world and events around them) is something I may be unable to do. Though I've never played out or even faded a rape scene, I fear violating these rules entirely accidentally, since staff posts are somewhat contradicting themselves at this point and are setting rather blurry lines.

I don't think you have anything to worry about, Vestric. From Adhira's post:
Quote
Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. You may choose to place such a storyline as background to your pc at creation, however, this cannot be played out in the actual game world. This extends to accusations of rape, as well -- You may not accuse another PC of raping your PC or another PC (or NPC/VNPC for that matter). If you do so, your character will be stored and a discussion will be opened via the request tool as to further action. You may not ask for consent to rape another PC, as these plot lines cannot be pursued in ArmageddonMUD.

Don't try to rape PCs, NPCs, or VNPCs. Don't say a PC has raped you or another PC, NPC, or VNPC.

Lewd conversations sound like to be completely fair game.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: SmashedTregil on December 24, 2013, 05:18:33 PM
To be entirely honest. Someone had to be very seriously ridiculous in their thinking to file complaints of this nature. And yet, you cannot really censor complaints, or let people second guess themselves on what is worthy of a complaint and what's not. If that happens, people would allow too many things to go past them, that they really shouldn't. Very unfortunate. I understand rape was always a touchy subject. Someone who experienced it, would never ever want to be part of any plotline that involved it in any way. It might be a real horror for them to end up experiencing a plotline, on the 'giving' end, as running a character who got accused of rape.

Would've been better if Imms just made creation of 'new' plotlines that involved an act of rape to be forbidden. So any performance that a player would potentially feel they should ask a request a consent for, if it involves rape, the answer is always 'no'.  Yet leaving any virtual rape concept, as well as storytelling stemming from such things to be viable and permissible. People would not be afraid to 'discuss' rape of the past. While threatening rape would become something similar to threatening enslavement. Always a possibility, but the real result is the end of the character and usually reserved to virtual characters, or organizations.

As long as it is well written in the docs and absorbed by the playerbase, most people would understand that any talk of rape, is a talk of a 'virtual' act. It wouldnt stop people from using these plots to bring harm to other characters, but it will always be understood on an OOC level, that such accusations always have other factors playing part. If your enemy cant accuse you of being rapist, he'll accuse you of being a mind bender, or a secret breed, or a magicker, or a damned red head.


PS: I once asked a southron noble if they can ask their guard to leave the room, so I could do ...  things with her, while being a northerner breed myself. Is that illegal now? :D.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 24, 2013, 05:24:50 PM
I'm inclined to think the "Someone complained to much" line of reasoning is a myth. Partly because I find it a kind of distasteful reasoning, but largely because I was part of a rape plotline tangle, and the only report I had filed was one noting its existence. I think the real weak point was in the Consent documentation: I'm not sure it was ever spelled out that accusing a PC of rape was tantamount to that PC being raped, and required the same level of consent. That is where I saw trouble arise.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 24, 2013, 05:29:22 PM

I don't think you have anything to worry about, Vestric. From Adhira's post:
Quote
Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. You may choose to place such a storyline as background to your pc at creation, however, this cannot be played out in the actual game world. This extends to accusations of rape, as well -- You may not accuse another PC of raping your PC or another PC (or NPC/VNPC for that matter). If you do so, your character will be stored and a discussion will be opened via the request tool as to further action. You may not ask for consent to rape another PC, as these plot lines cannot be pursued in ArmageddonMUD.

Don't try to rape PCs, NPCs, or VNPCs. Don't say a PC has raped you or another PC, NPC, or VNPC.

Lewd conversations sound like to be completely fair game.

That seems to indeed be the case, going by that post. But as another posted (on around page 4), there seems to be a discrepancy between that and the idea that you cannot 'sit at a tavern and tell a story about rape,' as was stated in another staff post. I also take issue with the idea that you cannot have your character virtually raping (not even in 'faded' scenes, but in ones that occur 'off-camera,' as it were, when you're logged out) virtual game characters. Who is that helping, exactly? It just seems to be a needless limitation on the sorts of vile characters that we are able to play, which goes against my concept of this game.

The lines just seem unclear to me, at this point. Maybe that's just the nature of the beast the rules are in relation to, though. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: A Large Bag on December 24, 2013, 05:29:37 PM
I don't care about this either way really other than I am disappointed in the playerbase for making it an issue for staff and to cause this to even have to be done. I witnessed the aftermath of rapes in game a few times, did not have a character directly involved in them in my time here so I don't think we're missing much. There are plenty of alternatives of "bad stuff" you can do to other pcs here if necessary and IC.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: A Large Bag on December 24, 2013, 05:31:13 PM
Oh and is necrophilia still okay to rp? Just checking...
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 24, 2013, 05:32:24 PM
I'm inclined to think the "Someone complained to much" line of reasoning is a myth.

Yes, but we don't really know.  All we know is that it was becoming too much of a mess for staff, and it's not hard to follow that their energy could be spent better elsewhere.

Anyway, this doesn't affect me.  I never encountered it, and if I had, my characters would've ignored it as commonplace.  OOCly, I'm glad it's gone.  I would argue that people should be able to say abusive remarks like, "I'll rape your mother, you jerk!"  But it's really whatever.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 24, 2013, 05:45:49 PM
I feel like it's unfair to say that those who complained were not recognizing the harshness of the game. From my limited perspective I can imagine complaints that were not about excess harshness.

I personally, will not miss being knocked down in the middle of the bazaar and being asked to consent to rape. I didn't complain. I did find it skeevy.

I also think that protecting the vnpc population is an odd choice. I'd love to hear more about just that part of the decision.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 24, 2013, 05:55:18 PM
That seems to indeed be the case, going by that post. But as another posted (on around page 4), there seems to be a discrepancy between that and the idea that you cannot 'sit at a tavern and tell a story about rape,' as was stated in another staff post.

If push comes to shove, I'd cite a Staff Announcements post by a Producer (and subsequent Document changes) over a post that went up at like, 2am. Or at least ask for the reasoning in the post to be made more official.

Also, as I recall from Adhira's "rape story at the bar" post, the issue was that PCs were being mistaken for the (virtual) rapist in the story, which amount to a rape accusation even though the "reporting" party didn't even mean it as such. All of a sudden you get players noting that "Some person said someone fitting Amos' description is a rapist" in character reports, Staff have to investigate, time and energy need to be diverted... At the worse case scenario (that a PC-to-PC act never happened and someone has been accused of rape without consenting to such), roleplay gets disrupted as people need to change gears in their reactions or see things be retconned entirely... I can totally see why Staff have nixed PC-to-PC rape and rape-related scenarios.

However...

I also take issue with the idea that you cannot have your character virtually raping (not even in 'faded' scenes, but in ones that occur 'off-camera,' as it were, when you're logged out) virtual game characters. Who is that helping, exactly? It just seems to be a needless limitation on the sorts of vile characters that we are able to play, which goes against my concept of this game.

I also think that protecting the vnpc population is an odd choice. I'd love to hear more about just that part of the decision.

I agree that this is a rather debatable point and wouldn't mind further elaboration from staff, if they feel it's appropriate.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: mansa on December 24, 2013, 05:59:17 PM
- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation. If it's in your background you can use it as internal motivation, the moment you externalize it, it becomes an in game storyline.

I was also hoping we could make these examples into a rape helpfile.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 24, 2013, 06:14:09 PM
Also, I'm kind of wondering what sexual torture involves. This is not very clear to me.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Narf on December 24, 2013, 06:16:57 PM
I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.

I don't believe these things are congruent.  Death is inevitable, and to an extent, so is prejudice.  Rape and child molestation are the product of a sick individual.  It doesn't matter how you frame it, they're always sickos, and there's no rational explanation for that behavior.  However, murder and prejudice are often necessary in the gameworld of Zalanthas, and that's why we deem it harsh.

Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary.

My point to you is that banning it because it makes people uncomfortable with real life experiences doesn't make sense. Why are they playing -this- game? However, the staff has said that it just causes too many problems OOCly. The Staff's stated reason seems well reasonable.

I imagine it's a matter of degree. We live in a society where rape is ... felt to be worse than murder. In fiction if you really want your main character to be hated by the audience, you have him (gendered intentionally) commit rape.

It doesn't make sense from an objective standpoint, it seems like murder /should/ be far worse than rape, but in our culture it isn't. There's a lot of reasons for this: puritanical views of sex, and the idea that sex can 'despoil' someone, first world senses of empowerment for individuals, and the very fact that people survive rape and thus the impact it has on them is felt for their lifetime... Not a problem for murder.

As a result people are psychologically more affected by issues of rape than they are for murder. In other societies this isn't the case.

If you try to make sense of why rape is worse than murder without a massive amount of cultural context, it's tough or impossible to understand. But the fact remains, for whatever reasons rape has a greater emotional impact on people than every other objectively worse fate.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Patuk on December 24, 2013, 06:19:56 PM
I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.

I don't believe these things are congruent.  Death is inevitable, and to an extent, so is prejudice.  Rape and child molestation are the product of a sick individual.  It doesn't matter how you frame it, they're always sickos, and there's no rational explanation for that behavior.  However, murder and prejudice are often necessary in the gameworld of Zalanthas, and that's why we deem it harsh.

Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary.

My point to you is that banning it because it makes people uncomfortable with real life experiences doesn't make sense. Why are they playing -this- game? However, the staff has said that it just causes too many problems OOCly. The Staff's stated reason seems well reasonable.

I imagine it's a matter of degree. We live in a society where rape is ... felt to be worse than murder. In fiction if you really want your main character to be hated by the audience, you have him (gendered intentionally) commit rape.

It doesn't make sense from an objective standpoint, it seems like murder /should/ be far worse than rape, but in our culture it isn't. There's a lot of reasons for this: puritanical views of sex, and the idea that sex can 'despoil' someone, first world senses of empowerment for individuals, and the very fact that people survive rape and thus the impact it has on them is felt for their lifetime... Not a problem for murder.

As a result people are psychologically more affected by issues of rape than they are for murder. In other societies this isn't the case.

If you try to make sense of why rape is worse than murder without a massive amount of cultural context, it's tough or impossible to understand. But the fact remains, for whatever reasons rape has a greater emotional impact on people than every other objectively worse fate.

This page is related. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Lutagar on December 24, 2013, 06:24:17 PM
Is this policy something that's a test to see if it resolves issues, or one of those things that is set in stone and not likely to ever change?


Also this change makes me  :'(
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Malken on December 24, 2013, 06:25:39 PM
Also, I'm kind of wondering what sexual torture involves. This is not very clear to me.

Dude, if you're going to be torturing somebody and they consent to it, I'm pretty sure you can think of a torture that doesn't involve anything remotely sexual, and if you can't, maybe you shouldn't be torturing anyone to begin with.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 24, 2013, 06:31:10 PM
I think it's a fair question. Castration, despite being an attack on the sexual organs, was said to be OK (I think?). Sodomy should probably be avoided. Nipple attacks? Hmmm....
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 24, 2013, 06:34:22 PM
I don't get why people are so comfortable with torture.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Malken on December 24, 2013, 06:35:43 PM
I think it's a fair question. Castration, despite being an attack on the sexual organs, was said to be OK (I think?). Sodomy should probably be avoided. Nipple attacks? Hmmm....

To normal people, castration is not a sexual act.

As I said, I'm sure you can think of a torture act or two that doesn't involve breasts, nipples or penis.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 24, 2013, 06:40:55 PM
Also, I'm kind of wondering what sexual torture involves. This is not very clear to me.

Dude, if you're going to be torturing somebody and they consent to it, I'm pretty sure you can think of a torture that doesn't involve anything remotely sexual, and if you can't, maybe you shouldn't be torturing anyone to begin with.

Oh, no, the problem is not being unable to think of non-sexual torture, I can think of plenty of those. The problem is being unable to tell where the line is drawn, some activities that others would find at best uncomfortable or at worst emotionally scarring may appeal to a certain type of character. Honestly, if I wanted to torture someone, I don't think I would do so sexually, it would probably involve removing toes, then fingers, then maybe an eye or an ear, maybe force them or one of their children to eat them, but I'm really not the type to engage in that kind of roleplay unless someone has done something very wrong to one of my PCs or their loved ones.

I mean, I've seen some questionable activities my characters would rather not have happened, although they reluctantly allowed it, but the character wasn't completely bothered by them and maybe even enjoyed it a little, and went back for some more of this new, interesting thing. I would rather have a clear idea of what this involves so I don't accidently get someone banned in the future.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: HavokBlue on December 24, 2013, 07:47:38 PM
I don't get why people are so comfortable with torture.

Probably because it's a text based video game on the internet and any torture that takes place, just like rape or murder or theft or assault or racism is a fictional act taking place in a fictional world that has no effect on real life.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 24, 2013, 07:56:59 PM
I don't get why people are so comfortable with torture.

Probably because it's a text based video game on the internet and any torture that takes place, just like rape or murder or theft or assault or racism is a fictional act taking place in a fictional world that has no effect on real life.

Yes, here we are on page 7 for another one of those things.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FantasyWriter on December 24, 2013, 10:11:44 PM
I'm surprised this is even an issue. I had no idea.  Never in my 7+ years of playing have I ever encountered RP even coming close to rape.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 24, 2013, 11:13:30 PM
Think of it this way: this policy change now eliminates the silly drama of tressy-tresses who cry wolf to get someone vindicated.

You know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: SmashedTregil on December 25, 2013, 12:07:24 AM
I doubt many people really give a toss about the actual concept. It is such a rare instance in many player's usual storylines. It is the sheer blanketness of it that troubles, at least me. I mean in a sense, it invalidates the majority of an entire half-elven race.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 25, 2013, 12:55:16 AM
Can we still play rapists who don't actually roleplay raping PC's?

I have never roleplayed a rape on either end, but I have played a few PC's who used "being a rapist" as a way to gain instant villain status, even though the rapes were virtual and no pc's were ever actually involved.


For the sake of making it easy on staff and players alike I will say no.

You can put that your pc was a rapist in the background. You can't play out being a rapist in game, even if it's purely in mindset and not action.

It bothers me a little that it appears it took one staffer 11 minutes to decide this for the entire game. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that there wasn't a pool of staff standing by to have an 11 minute conversation on Christmas Eve morning and determine this for the entire game as a whole after a full discussion and a vote.

It doesn't appear the idea of doing away with "virtual" rape as a concept was discussed fully on staff side and this short answer was pulled up on short notice and replied to almost immediately by a single person.

I would like to request that the idea of no virtual/non pc to pc rape and atmospheric rape overtones be reconsidered and discussed staff side at length before an answer is given.

I find that most people have no problem with banning pc on pc rape.

Most people, including myself, seem to have a problem with making it so you can't even mention it, or ever play anyone who would be prone to it, even in a virtual sense that doesn't affect other players or put them in dangerous situations.

Eleven minutes.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 25, 2013, 01:23:25 AM
It was very likely not resulting in an 11 minute discussion, and more spending hours poring over logs to sort out a complaint and deciding they've had enough.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 25, 2013, 01:29:12 AM
It was very likely not resulting in an 11 minute discussion, and more spending hours poring over logs to sort out a complaint and deciding they've had enough.

Please re-read my quotes and my question. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: LittleLady on December 25, 2013, 01:36:11 AM
I'm a new player, who has been playing for a little over two months now. In my time playing Arm, I have heard of two instances/accusations of rape. My character wasn't involved in the scene, but only heard about it afterwards.

I can tell you right now, that I will not miss the added stress this puts on players and staff a like. I don't think it does anything to lessen the harsh reality of the game, as there are still so many harsh gritty aspects to the game. Murder, Torture, Kidnapping, etc. are all still things that exist. Work with them.

Personally, had I been involved in a scene like this, I would have consented but asked to fade and not be forced to role play the event. Is that for everyone, absolutely not. I don't think that any player should have to deal with that, as it isn't fun. It isn't fun in real life, and it isn't fun in movies or games.

I think that players should have some ability, however to keep their creative freedom in the back stories. They should even be allowed to discuss it if they choose. It should be clear though that this happened "a long, long time ago, in a galaxy far far away.." meaning not in the game world at the current time but in the past and the person that did it is long gone and out of existence. It isn't hard to imagine that is the case.

Just to save from having to post in multiple threads about the same issue, I think people are nit-picking this a little hard. It isn't rape to attempt to smack someone on the ass, especially if you don't take their choice out of it. It isn't rape to eye someone up and down and hit on them or make lewd suggestions. The minute suggestion turns to action, then the problem starts.

If this resolves issues for staff, and for players alike, then I say move on and give it a go.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Culinary Critic on December 25, 2013, 02:03:54 AM
I admit that I have not read all 7 (yes, seven pages...in one day...on December 24th!!!  You people are incredible.) pages of discussion on this topic, but will.

I admit that this is a horrifically evil twisted disturbed topic.

I admit that I am very, very glad that this has ban has been implemented.

I'l also admit to some very serious BDSM role play (in Arm) on occasion.

But...

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.

I recognize that the sexual urge (non-gender specific) is one of the most dominant in our race.  Sex is a key driver in many, many aspects of our society.  Politicians are impeached, kicked out of office or imprisoned for sexual acts.  We (humans) use sex to get the things we want, we use the things others want to get sex (shit, in North America we have an entire industry based upon it) and we TAKE sex.  It happens.  It happened to my wife.  I believe it happened to me when I was very, very young (luckily young enough to not remember).  And it is horrific.

I applaud staff for removing the ACT of rape from the game, with no judgement against players of characters that have raped or been raped because it is a crazy strong method of character development.  This is long overdue.

BUT to say that I can't discuss the history of my character being raped and how it shaped the course of his or her life makes the ACT of my character being raped insignificant.  Well, that is just wrong.  She/he can't even talk about one of the most disgusting and life-changing experiences of their lives?  He/she can't explore the emotional trauma of a physical act?  Sorry, don't agree with that.

And being raped in your background can't influence the way you RP?  Nope, not buying in to this one.  Look at current news in just about any city.  People are damaged in more than a dozen different ways each and every day.  The act of being damaged (in any way) causes a change in the way a person behaves.  It could be that they become very introverted.  It could be that they never buy Cheetoz again.  It could be that they shun sex in all manner.  It could be that they become homo/heterosexual.  It could be that they want to kill every left-handed, ebon-tressed, crimson-eyed, club-footed, big-nosed man/woman/stump they meet.  Who knows?

I have a character idea that I am have been thinking about for a RL YEAR and am dying to play.  But one of the most significant events is that the character WAS raped.  It changed the course of his/her life.  Suddenly this becomes a "oh...something happened..."?  The entire character concept becomes shit.  I can no longer even app this character.

Ban the act, yes.  Ban the existence?  Hell no.  Do we ban murder next?  How about betrayal?  When does corruption come up?

When does "Armageddon.  Murder, corruption & betrayal." become "Armageddon.  Puppies, rainbows and unicorns."?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 25, 2013, 02:20:02 AM
Like I said. This is weak. There are better ways to go about this. It's a change I highly disagree with because it detracts from the facet of wickedness that some people were able to portray very well, and "might" have gotten away with if they were more careful. It also destroys the concepts of certain characters, and removes potential plotlines. All in all, a -1 to the severity of harshness.

What I find even funnier is staff is really fast to pull the "just because you're talking on the GDB and other guys are talking doesn't mean anything" when there is something being discussed and they shut it down, but this rule has come into effect, there is some vocal support, and some vocal dissent, and they're just instantly siding with the dissent. You guys have gotta just straight up say "We don't CARE what you think on this topic, the rule is the rule, and that is final".
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 25, 2013, 02:54:09 AM
It was very likely not resulting in an 11 minute discussion, and more spending hours poring over logs to sort out a complaint and deciding they've had enough.

Please re-read my quotes and my question. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying.

In context with reading my note, I wasn't actually disagreeing with you. I was backing up what you said. I think I just said it really bad as I typed it out blearily before falling into bed with a headache. :P
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 25, 2013, 02:57:30 AM
BDSM isn't rape, it's kinky sex. That's cool. Just no rape-play, man.

Staffies would have probably been fine with us consenting to rape plotlines until they needed to pore through logs for hours in response to what was, probably, non-consentual rape roleplay (or something that got out of hand, man I don't even know, if you're uncomfortable with something that's happening wish up or quit OOC or something).
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Culinary Critic on December 25, 2013, 02:58:47 AM
I'm inclined to think the "Someone complained to much" line of reasoning is a myth. Partly because I find it a kind of distasteful reasoning, but largely because I was part of a rape plotline tangle, and the only report I had filed was one noting its existence. I think the real weak point was in the Consent documentation: I'm not sure it was ever spelled out that accusing a PC of rape was tantamount to that PC being raped, and required the same level of consent. That is where I saw trouble arise.

We have long had very specific rules on sex/rape in the consent files.  Someone submits a complaint, fine and dandy.  Investigate.  Review file...did victim player consent to rape?  

Yes = shut up.  You consented to this crazy shit.  Watch what you're doing because your next complaint will cause you some serious trouble.

No = (to rapist) You are a dumb player and will be sanctioned.  You are on the naughty step and this is some serious shit.  If you do anything (I repeat ANYTHING) even remotely close to resembling this again, you will be banned for life.  You get one warning and this is it.  Don't go be a dumb ass no more or you will be off in some B level RPG.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 25, 2013, 03:39:42 AM
Except the rules weren't specific, at least in the area I highlighted ("being accused of rape" needing as much consent as  "actual participation in an act of rape"). I haven't looked at the Consent file in a long time, and it's been changed since, but I'm pretty sure it was never made clear that, even if your'e going to accuse someone of being a rapist, you need to ask that person first. That's where I've seen troubles.

"Investigating" is a problem. It takes time, time in which other PCs may have already heard the accusations and begun acting on. The game world may become irrevocable altered by PC reactions in the time it takes staff to sort out just what the heck happened (if they ever sort it out; I doubt investigating is so easy as opening a log file and searching for "rape").  It'd become especially problematic in situations where the alleged-rapist and alleged-victim PCs may never had even shared a room together, with the accusations having been invented by a third party for their own motives.

What do you do if the answer to your scenario is "No, a rape never occurred, and the accused party never gave consent to even be accused of it", but the accused's minions have already deserted/betrayed him, or even just spread the word wide and far across the Known? Do you attempt to roll things back, which will be awkward at best?  Or do you leave events to stand as they are, which would mean a consent-breaking action was still allowed to affect the roleplay.

"Rape plotlines" encompasses a whole lot more than just one PC raping another. I imagine that's the most straightforward and easily monitored scenario.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 25, 2013, 03:49:18 AM
It does occur to me based on U.S. penal code systems...

If the characters are drunk, can they legitimately give consent? What if they feel bad about it afterwards? What if one decides that, because they were drunk, they didn't properly consent to have sex? NOW what?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Jeshin on December 25, 2013, 05:04:42 AM
I appear to say this one example...

I am a Tuluki bard... Lets say Driamusek.

I kank a dirty dirt Akai Sjir Necker... Lets say a devilish charmistic one with a really cool hat.

Anyone who is aware that incident MUST presume my completely outwardly upstanding Tuluki bard is in love with an elf and isn't being raped or abused or forced into it by blackmail or gicker wriggling...

I mean it was all probably consenting anyway, but it means PCs must assume that all taboo relationships are products of love and nothing nefarious.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: greasygemo on December 25, 2013, 05:27:10 AM
Sooooooo if my PC gets drunk / high / is a retard with an IQ of 5 and does unspeakable, deviant things with a dwarf/elf/gicker/breed/half-giant(...not sure even even possibly could work but you get the idea..) and gets caught, it can no longer be assumed that it was non-consensual and that PC can't go UH UH UH ..NO IT WAS TOTALLY RAPE I WOULD NEVER DO THAT! *shifty eyes* Because.. rape doesn't.. exist?

Also, what about if you're PC is really violent and eating the flesh of his/her enemies is akin to a sex act for them as it makes them all aroused on the inside, as some psychos get off on pure, terrific violence.. does that count? Bloodlustiness? Even if no boobies or wee wees are shown or touching of ones self occurs?

Oooooor what about gelding someone for torture / revenge purposes? Or stabbing someone in the boobs to disfigure them? Is this all considered "rapey" because there are boobs / testicles being referenced though not in a sexual way? Because let's face it, the motherfucker that stole your mate by the Highlord he is not going to foster any children by them, and that wench-gortok-face-whore is never going to be desired by another man as much as you, so lopping off her tah tahs so she'll come crawling back like the titless dummy she is seems poetically fitting, not at all insane, as you are a jealous, cruel and vicious bastard, etc

And I haven't read the whole thread yet but ... are all half-breeds now born of loving elf and human parents who defied traditions and expressed their passion for one another through a lovechild?

I can still get drunk, high and swear while pissing myself, in a bar, followed by puking on someone, then be disembowled publicly by the milita and crap myself when I die, as long as I don't have a nip slip right? So long as consent is provided for graphic, terrible, disgusting, clockwork orange levels of violence by parties present?

EDIT: What a weird xmas thread we've got going on here..

EDIT #2: As I'm thinking about it, it's mostly the fact that it's now no longer open as a thing that happens virtually which can shape a PC's RP and mindset, as they were a victim or their VNPC brother was molested by elves, etc, etc. that bothers me.. The banning of the actual action itself is fine, and anyway, FTB happens all the time in situations of extremely graphic violence and gore, or otherwise traumatizing events. So whatevs on making rape a thing you can't act out physically.

The second thing that concerns me is how we are going to actually label it as it's been mentioned several times that there are a number of definitons for the act. Withdrawn consent post-act, drunkeness / high on spice, indecent exposure (accidental or purposefully), grabbing someones boob in the Gaj, squeezing someones balls in an inflict pain not for sex kind of way, saying "NO" mid-sex and changing your mind, and so forth. We need to be awful careful about how we label what "rape" means if we intend to start dropping ban hammers.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Inks on December 25, 2013, 05:35:30 AM
Edit: Was being crude. But what about animals and corpses?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: greasygemo on December 25, 2013, 05:38:07 AM
***withdrawn as he edited it in previous post****

LOL. Can corpses be considered non-consenting in all cases? What if they would have totally be down while alive and you have it on good authority?

...Man such a weird christmas thread. I feel like a heathen. xD
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 25, 2013, 05:48:31 AM
Sooooooo if my PC gets drunk / high / is a retard with an IQ of 5 and does unspeakable, deviant things with a dwarf/elf/gicker/breed/half-giant(...not sure even even possibly could work but you get the idea..) and gets caught, it can no longer be assumed that it was non-consensual and that PC can't go UH UH UH ..NO IT WAS TOTALLY RAPE I WOULD NEVER DO THAT! *shifty eyes* Because.. rape doesn't.. exist?

Also, what about if you're PC is really violent and eating the flesh of his/her enemies is akin to a sex act for them as it makes them all aroused on the inside, as some psychos get off on pure, terrific violence.. does that count? Bloodlustiness? Even if no boobies or wee wees are shown or touching of ones self occurs?

Oooooor what about gelding someone for torture / revenge purposes? Or stabbing someone in the boobs to disfigure them? Is this all considered "rapey" because there are boobs / testicles being referenced though not in a sexual way?

And I haven't read the whole thread yet but ... are all half-breeds now born of loving elf and human parents who defied traditions and expressed their passion for one another through a lovechild?

I can still get drunk, high and swear while pissing myself, in a bar, followed by puking on someone, then be disembowled publicly by the milita and crap myself when I die, as long as I don't have a nip slip right? So long as consent is provided for graphic, terrible, disgusting, clockwork orange levels of violence by parties present?


I'm going to try and sum up what staff said so far in answer to your questions, at least, to the best of what I'm seeing on this topic:

No, you can't say it was rape if you fucked a breed because rape is no longer a thing in the PC-world. It doesn't happen. You don't talk about it. Done.

I think Eurynomos has made a point saying that things like bloodlust, gelding, stripping someone nekid and leaving them out in the sands, ect. is not considered rape... On a case by case basis that you should wish up before you do something in the heat of the moment to make sure is okay.

As for the half breed thing - Rape is still a thing in the vNPC world, just not something anyone ever has to worry about as a consequence in the PC world. Also, you can't talk about it. So you can say your breed was a rape-baby in your bio, but you can never say it in game. Your parents were loving, dammit!

A nip slip wouldn't be considered rape, I don't think, and while I get the basis of the facetious question yes - Basically you can have every other bit of gruesome, curmudgeon, spratling-genocide, cock-mongering-idolitor, shit-drenching-horror, bloodbathing sadist, pedophilic, inix-kanking scene you want, but if there's non consent you're banned. Also: You might get a link to The Mud Connector and told to look elsewhere for your raping ways.

I don't like this change, I think it could be worded better and made more appropriate if it absolutely needs to be put in. As it is, it's -way- to broad and it's way too constricting. Adhira has said that, while yes, you can talk about rape on a broad scale (Such as soldiers from the south saying the want to rape, pillage, and burn the north.), but staff would rather you didn't. (At least, that's what I took from it, feel free to read back on page three or so for direct words) This just feels like too much legislation over what doesn't need to be legislated.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: lordcooper on December 25, 2013, 06:02:43 AM
Guys, it's Christmas.  Focus on something other than fictional rape for today, yeah?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 25, 2013, 06:03:33 AM
Some of us aren't having a good christmas.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: greasygemo on December 25, 2013, 06:07:24 AM
Well, epic, critically acclaimed works of fantasy and drama in literature have been written and read by consenting adults and they and their characters never mention or are influenced by ra-.. er, well... hum.

Yeaaaaah, I don't know how to not allow a view of the world to be shaped by a past action as severe as rape. It seems really weird and too restrictive to be a rape-baby breed and then never be affected or ever cry about it to a friend in a hysterical / needy fit (before you reject their condolences and flee to the wilds to reassert your independence that is, of course!)

Iunno, I'm probably just over thinking it, it's not something that comes up too often or that I've dealt with all that much, though I've played a few PC's who were like, "I will shave my head and attempt to be ugly, smear poop on myself and be as unscrewable as possible because I was virtually raped before and never again!" or something to that effect. It was just a personality point that developed the character more, gave them an extra layer of action/thought/behaviour, but it would be absolutely unexplainable in the new setting. I don't see what the harm is in just being like, "Got raped once. So now I wear heavy clothes and make myself look disgusting all the time so it maybe doesn't happen no more."

Also, I have heard of dudes being raped ICly by other dudes. This is a sexism free society after all. We do have dudes who like to go cowboy on other dudes.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: greasygemo on December 25, 2013, 06:08:41 AM
Some of us aren't having a good christmas.

Christmas is being a jerk. True Story.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 25, 2013, 07:19:03 AM
No longer being able to RP the act out, ask for consent to rape a PC, and no longer being able to accuse someone of raping a PC are all a good place to start. Why don't we revise the changes to just start there, and see how the community handles it? Why do we have to do everything in one step?

I'm not saying that it isn't possible that the other censorship rules would be useful and helpful, too, but as it is so far, this is a very poorly-designed experiment. If you want to know which parts of the changes are having a beneficial effect, it makes the most sense to implement them in a stage-wise fashion.

The community here has spoken and quite clearly, there is a lot more agreement on the rules I stated first here than the ones bolded in Culinary Critic's post, for example.

I know staff doesn't discuss their future actions on the GDB, so I don't need nor want a reply. (I speak to Desertman's complaint that a response came to his post in 11 minutes.) Instead, my one post on this thread is a plea to you. Reconsider implementing everything at once. Censorship is new to the community. I think the community is willing to apply it to the physical scenes they RP starting today and to change their consenting habits immediately. But I don't hear willingness to go forward with everything.

I ask you all to redact or place some of the less popular moves on hold and give the community some time to see if this has a positive effect. The staff may be sure we need every rule, but the community isn't, so let's see together if they all are.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 25, 2013, 07:33:32 AM
I'm against all of them. If I'm a player who wants to rp out a sick twisted individual, and another pc wants to be part of that, I don't feel like I should be hogtied and forced to change how my character might have been just because some people don't want to deal with the situation.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 25, 2013, 07:49:15 AM
To weigh in one more time before this inevitably gets locked, and before I get to my holiday shenanigans:

From my humble player's perspective, entirely OOC restrictions on our creativity are 100% always a bad thing. This and the ban on PC slavery come to mind. One of the reasons Armageddon is so endearing to me is because anything that seems like it would be possible in the game world actually is possible for me to do as a player, or at least has some illusion of possibility. This and the previous example emphatically break said illusion. Now, I'll admit to not being quite a twisted enough bird to have any really good concepts floating around that are stopped by this ban, but as the d-elf/templar thing someone brought up shows, they certainly exist. Both this and the previous example stop concepts and in character events in a way that is entirely out of character, which doesn't sit well with me.

On an entirely related note, Merrrry Christmas to all my fellow Armagedonners.  ;)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Kalai on December 25, 2013, 10:54:08 AM
I'm quite happy with a blanket ban on rape plotlines. I am entirely uncomfortable with not allowing background events to shape a character's actions, and in fact have no idea how to even do this if such a thing happened to a character. It ... it doesn't not impact people. Primary or secondary survivors. If rape's virtually not uncommon most characters are going to be impacted by it in some way. Men, women, and otherwise equally since it shouldn't be tied to gender. I'm fine with refraining from giving any description that could accidentally tie someone to a virtual rapist ... glad to prevent confusion but ...

... would any of the following would be unacceptable?
- Sexual reservation, hang-ups, promiscuity, lack of self-respect due to prior trauma.
    - Talking with a sexual partner about this? I mean ... yeah. That's kinda necessary.
- Flashbacks triggered by specific circumstances: smell of spice, particular phrase, etc ...
    - Letting someone know this disturbs you and they shouldn't get you sweet as a gift or trade.
- Difficulty trusting a (nongendered) subset of the population due to past trauma, or difficulty trusting in general? (Without any accidental accusation)
- Fear they'll do something like that, or indeed they have done something like that, potentially to someone they care about, and later agony over what effect that had on life of (background vNPC)?
- Admitting the experience at all, as part of a test of trust, because you're close enough to someone that it's part of being honest about yourself, or reaching out to try and get help with the impact on you?

If any of these are unacceptable (and probably a few more, but this is a decent representative subset), I will feel really uncomfortable with actually playing someone with rape in their background, because, well, I would have to basically treat it as a lot less serious than it is, and that's a dark road in itself. I am only a secondary survivor, but sweeping under the rug the experience of someone I am close to would not in any way fix that it happened in the first place. That's where they lived for years and talking about such is healing them. Including a bit of sexual trauma, gender dysphoria, violent tragedy, nonconforming relationship orientations, and so forth in the background of my written or roleplaying characters is sometimes part of how I safely explore such concepts and their effects on someone's psyche and behavior when I, myself, am struggling to deal with understanding such.

I really wouldn't be comfortable with being dishonest with such an attempt in any way.

Kind of hoping I just misunderstood the clarification. But, that's why I'm asking.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: LittleLady on December 25, 2013, 11:21:18 AM
Kalai's post summed it up really well. I don't think the losing the ability to accuse or commit the act is a bad thing, but I feel that it could be an important part of a background. It would impede character development to have such a big event in your past, and not be able to work through it in game to resolve it/heal from it. I think it's important to curb the accusations and the act if it is effecting players and staff. I don't think it needs to be stopped and blanketed in a virtual, this is my past, kind of way.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Lizzie on December 25, 2013, 11:26:22 AM
It sounds like the entirety of half-elves would be missing out on on, very defining, very significant behavioral, personality, and social roleplay. That is, the circumstances which led to their existence.

It sounds like no one is allowed to ask a half-breed anything about their parentage, and the breeds are not allowed to bring it up in conversation. A half-elf is not allowed to act out or discuss anything related to the trauma of their birth. No one is allowed to act disgusted around a breed, if that disgust is because they know the breed was the result of rape.

Or is half-breed roleplay the exception? And if it's an exception, why would it be? Either people are allowed to RP this kind of thing, or they're not. If they're not, and if the reasoning is staff issues, then it should extend to ALL roleplay, and not just "all rape and discussions of rape except for half-elves, who are exempt." Because if you exempt half-elves, then you're inviting the exact same issues that you're saying you don't want.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 25, 2013, 12:04:18 PM
Rape can still be an important part of your PC's background. The staff aren't stopping anyone from making that the case.

What staff are very specifically stopping players from doing now is turning your background into a plot by externalizing it. Adhira gave the example of giving a vague description of a vNPC rapist that happens to match a PC.

For the example of a half-elf, the idea that one parent raped the other can still be in the background. It's still common knowledge that half-elves are typically born from rape. I would imagine that the half-elf PC can still say as much, because it is common knowledge. No plot comes of it because saying "yeah, that happened" doesn't actually start a plot, it in fact signals the end of an event that happened previously in the character's life. What the PC can't do is describe the tall, muscular elf with purple eyes and a mohawk that raped his caring mother or give other people some sort of bait that would allow them to pursue a character for one reason or another.

Ultimately, I'm for this change not because rape is heinous or offensive, and even though it is I was not personally affected or bothered by such things. What irks me is that based on this thread and staff commentary alone (nevermind what I may or may not have seen IG), it was starting to become a theme in the game where rape-related plotlines were pursued to the exclusion of other kinds of plots and activities in game. I realize that not everyone has the same perspective and some will actually find this premise ridiculous but it seems likely that different parts of the game were experiencing different events. I genuinely think that this rule will actually make the game more "harsh" because it will return the focus of the game to the kinds of plots that were a mainstay in the game for years. It also incidentally brings us in line with other RPIs, though there are not a lot of them, just about all of the others ban rape related plots anyway.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: manipura on December 25, 2013, 12:11:59 PM
Hmm, I had intended to post in this thread yesterday morning when it was still on page two of replies...but then Christmas stuff took over and schedules got changed and I never got a chance to post.  Twenty-four hours later the thread has exploded into eight pages of discussion.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, just skimmed over it, but I'm fairly certain the issues I have with this ban have been touched on already by a number of folks.

Even though I personally never had an issue with PC on PC rape plotlines, if it fit the characters involved, I can see how banning this won't be a particularly bad thing.  I always thought that the consent rules took care of the problem of someone having to RP something they didn't want to be involved in, however I guess these rules were problematic for some people?

The way I always saw it was this:
Player 1 (the villain) : OOC s/he is making the choice to rape your PC, do you consent to this?

Player 2 (the victim) has a couple of options at this point:
option 1 OOC Yeah, I consent and we'll RP the whole thing out.
option 2 OOC I consent, but let's FTB all the details and get to the aftermath.
option 3 OOC No, I don't consent to that in any way.

If player 2 chooses the last option, then a rape scene is off the table.  Also, player 1 is not able to change their tune and decide "Alright, then my PC will just kill yours then."  If they were not planning to try to kill the victim, they can't decide that they're going to do that now as a result of consent not being given.  And if this is the course of action that player 1 tries to take, this warrants wishing up for staff assistance, or filing a complaint.  It always seemed pretty clear-cut to me.

That being said, I can understand how banning rape plotlines between PCs alleviates any sort of issues that are caused by people either not following or not understanding the consent guidelines.  What I do have a problem with is rape being banned virtually.  For one thing, this presents a huge problem for half-elves and their character development.  Rape is allowed to be mentioned in a background, but is not to be discussed in game in anyway, even if in reference to one's past?  

So my breed can have rape in their background, but they can't properly react to this event in game?  When my breed is sitting alone in a tavern and someone finally comes to talk to them, what does s/he say when the discussion turns to my upbringing and my life thus far?  "Oh, well my mother knew my father and then uh...a few months later I was born.  So uh...how 'bout those sandstorms, huh?"

Or when another PC wants to know why I won't travel to a certain place anymore or why I don't like being out at night or why I hate the smell of spiced mead or why I've always got my guard up or why whatever other triggering sort of thing you can imagine is a problem for me...what does my character say then?  "I just don't like going to that bar, because of stuff and things and yada yada yada.  So, did ya see the Arena games last week?"

Not only does extending this ban to the virtual world essentially wipe out a lot of opportunity for the personal development of PCs of a whole race, it makes it even more difficult for those PCs to RP accordingly when it comes to relationships with others.  Not just sexual relationships, but relationships in general.

Anyway, sort of a random post with random thoughts.  Like I said, I had a better post in mind yesterday and then the thread exploded :)  
I'm sure most of what I said has been touched on already, in fact now I'm going to go back and better read these last six pages or so of discussion.

Oh, and Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays, fellow Armers!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 25, 2013, 12:56:27 PM
Geez. Merry Christmas everyone.

The rule banning rape from in game play is going to stand (I saw someone ask for staff to make a statement on this). It's likely that some of the wording around what you can say, or how your virtual backgrounds can be played out by your character might be refined.  Some things are lost in translation (or my wording).  As to half-elves, sure, feel free to say they're rape-spawn to your hearts content.  

For a more definitive answer on this you'll need to wait till after the holiday day. Sorry, staff aren't that inclined to spend their holiday sitting around discussing rape in a game world. Feel free to keep on discussing, you will notice we've left this thread open for you to discuss your feelings on this. Several people have commented on staff not wanting to hear what you're saying, untrue, that's why this thread is open, but please play nice, you've asked us not to police your threads so much, we ask that you return the favor by keeping things civil. (To add - I think things are civil so far, I just want to state this so it doesn't dissolve into more chaos while I'm off eating turkey).

Happy Holidays.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 25, 2013, 01:04:25 PM
I think more than just allowing the thread to stay open, we would like minds to remain open and the question of refinement to remain open. Clearly nothing needs to be decided today or tomorrow. Ultimately you may decide to go with this as it stands.

If I were in charge of the game, the gdb, the universe I'd table all discussion till Friday then have everyone come back to the conversation with some cool down time.

People keep telling me I am not in charge.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 25, 2013, 01:24:38 PM
It's likely that some of the wording around what you can say, or how your virtual backgrounds can be played out by your character might be refined.  Some things are lost in translation (or my wording).  

For a more definitive answer on this you'll need to wait till after the holiday day.

Yup, that's what I was trying to say.  We're going to post after the holidays when we have had a chance to talk things over and give you all some more info. The rule in and of itself isn't going to change, sorry. But hopefully we can word things in such a way that it's a little clearer and you aren't all hating on us for taking away your freedom etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: lordcooper on December 25, 2013, 01:27:41 PM
It's likely that some of the wording around what you can say, or how your virtual backgrounds can be played out by your character might be refined.  Some things are lost in translation (or my wording).  

For a more definitive answer on this you'll need to wait till after the holiday day.

Yup, that's what I was trying to say.

I'm glad you could reach a consensus on this ;D
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Dakota on December 25, 2013, 01:48:16 PM
Frankly I never understood why ppl made such a big deal about X PC got raped by Y PC in a world such as Arm.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 25, 2013, 02:01:14 PM

The rule banning rape from in game play is going to stand (I saw someone ask for staff to make a statement on this). It's likely that some of the wording around what you can say, or how your virtual backgrounds can be played out by your character might be refined.  

I think this is all everyone really wants.

I think I saw one person who didn't want rape to go away at all.

Most people just want pc's to still be able to talk about rape, reference rape in general, and play out the atmospheric existence of rape in the world, without actually raping anyone or accusing anyone of rape on the PC to PC front.

So long as PC's aren't getting raped, and so long as PC's aren't accusing other PC's of rape, there is no extra staff workload.

Everything beyond that bothers people because then we are thought policing the game and censoring just to censor without a measurable payoff. (The decreased staff workload.)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yasbusta on December 25, 2013, 02:07:47 PM
This bothers me right now, why, not because I can't deal with it being removed, but well.

My current char is involved in a rape plot.

So am I just supposed to forget it happened? Cease the plot entirely?

*pulls his hair out in frustration*
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Rathustra on December 25, 2013, 02:10:02 PM
This bothers me right now, why, not because I can't deal with it being removed, but well.

My current char is involved in a rape plot.

So am I just supposed to forget it happened? Cease the plot entirely?

*pulls his hair out in frustration*

Concerns like this should be put into a request. We'll work with you to resolve everything. We don't want to 'trap' anyone who might be involved in stuff like this at the moment.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 25, 2013, 02:24:58 PM
I'm fairly sure Staff are going to resolve any outstanding plots as well, they just also don't want any NEW ones to start.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Incognito on December 25, 2013, 02:37:48 PM

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.


For the sake of clarity and to avoid any storage or stricter actions against players, could a similar guideline of what IS allowed in reference to rape be posted in a sticky and possibly in the helpfiles too?

For example:
Yes - you can allude to getting raped if you do something stupid (walk into the rinth, attack a mek, spit on a templar etc etc)
Yes - you can use the term in a humoresque or jocular manner without alluding to an actual PC, NPC, VNPC, event etc.

I dont wanna sound childish or anal, but if we're taking the step to do away with this concept once and for all, we might as well just lay out the guidelines of what's allowed and what's not allowed, so everyone is aware of them, and there are no grey areas. That's all.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Mood on December 25, 2013, 03:02:19 PM
can my gypsies still fuck gwoshi? it's 100% consensual, man, stay out of my bedroom.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 25, 2013, 03:55:28 PM
99% of the Arm playerbase never wanted to engage in a rape plotline before this announcement, now they all want to.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: slvrmoontiger on December 25, 2013, 04:03:28 PM
I'm still having trouble figuring out exactly what the staff terms as rape. *shrugs*

Here in the United States - Rape and Sexual Assault are used as like terms.

Sexual Assault could be something such as groping a woman that doesn't want to be groped. Or groping a man that doesn't want to be groped.
Rape is a crime of control. Rapist seek to control their victims so in those terms anything that takes control away from a victim could be considered rape. This could be as simple as getting someone drunk so they can do things to them while they aren't in their proper mind.

I think to have rules on Rape would need a clear cut definition of what is considered Rape on Zalanthas. That is why I suggested a help file and put some information in it a while back in this forum. However, it received no mention and no one really commented on it either way. I believe such a help file would save a lot of work for players as well as staff.

Furthermore, while we are on this topic. What is the rule of consent? Does consenting once just give someone open rein to you time and time again until you specifically OOC them saying I don't consent anymore? How I've always played this is that I will ask consent EVERY time I am to do anything sexual. Unless I have asked in the past for consent until it is specifically taken away. It would appear, based on past events, that staff believes once consent is given it is valid no matter when you come back to the same person again. This I don't agree with. I will continue to treat consent as I have always done in the past until something clear and concise is brought forth in the form of help file documentation.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: SmashedTregil on December 25, 2013, 04:06:19 PM
99% of the Arm playerbase never wanted to engage in a rape plotline before this announcement, now they all want to.

While I'm guessing this is more of a joke. Personally, I would caution against thinking like that. Making it look like anyone who finds this new ruling troublesome are just upset they dont get to rape people anymore. Lots of people said that that's not what worries them. It's the inability to deal with the concept in any way.

Not being able to rape anyone = either people support that, or dont care.
Not being able to externalize rape as a concept to rp about and base their character motivations on = some people are against that.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 25, 2013, 07:57:58 PM
Absolute, forced penile or vaginal infiltration into another person - I'm fine with that being banned.

But saying "Rape" is banned is just... Well... A -lot- of things. In the broadest terms I'm going to talk about an example that happened to me earlier this year. My character was a working man, and he was content working, drinking, smoking, and fucking. Now, another character that he'd been hitting on came to him one day after work, stuck sex spice in his mouth, and told him to smoke. He did. Things got sexual. She then decided to tell him this was never happening again. Cool. There's some story behind that - Plotline created!

I later find out that she was doing it only to try and get a baby out of it. That made my character feel used and abused. He didn't like talking about the thing that happened to him afterwards. -I- wouldn't coin that as rape, but I could definitely see people saying it was. In the future with this new rule - Things like that either wouldn't happen, or couldn't happen. Maybe staff say a situation like that is okay, but because of the wording now (and thank you Adhira for saying you're going to reword it) no one is going to want to chance their character getting stored for doing things even close to this.

If I were to word a rule like this in one sentence, it would be as follows: "Rape (direct genital contact of an unwanted nature [not through clothing]) is hereby banned, as is the ability to accuse others of such actions."

The fact you can't -accuse- anyone of rape is really nagging me too. Simply for the reason that there are a -lot- of mindsets in the world. What if my character -did- start saying he'd been raped after the fact? I'd given consent for sexual actions to occur on any level, and I'm fine with the consequences. But now I the player can't go down that side road in the plotline because staff laid a heavy ban over anything to do with it. (And yes, this comes before the possible rewording of the rules.) Sure, I can say she's a bad person who was using me - But what if my character wanted to lie to his friends to invoke the most primal response on the matter and have her eliminated?
"She's a bad person!"
"Alright. So?"
Yes. There are work around. Yes, I could have gone and hired an assassin. Yes, there are a hundred things I could have done. But what if I thought my character would rather abuse his friends trust in him to try and get her killed? I can't evoke the same reaction without a full blown lie that had nothing to do with the story. Lies are best when they're closest to the truth, and to get a reaction like that I would have to make up something unconvincing and untrue. Maybe I say she's a baby-molester? Nope, can't say that either. Maybe I say she's a murderer? Sure, that might work - But it's so far from the truth it has just as much a chance of being seen through.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Patuk on December 25, 2013, 08:04:13 PM
I think this issue could be solved easier if staff were to say 'we won't pour over the logs from third-party accusations anymore.' I really don't see how that'd be a bad thing.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 25, 2013, 08:31:25 PM
The rape thing affects more than just one player, is the issue. It affects a lot of people, and I've seen examples where the plots that spawn from this are very negative. Not getting consent for it can ruin somebody in a manner -far- too unfair to be legitimate even in Armageddon.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 25, 2013, 08:35:26 PM
Are we ever going to be allowed to know what events led up to this decision? I really can't see what could cause so much hassle that it would be worth banning an entire concept from the gameworld. You would think people plotting to overthrow city-states and such would cause much more 'hassle' than scenes that are for the most part between two characters and nothing further. Was this issue so pervasive without my noticing that it was worth dealing with in this blanket way, rather than just dealing with specific players who are causing the problems?

I still remain wholly unconvinced that this is the correct direction for the game to go into. As strange as I feel going all Braveheart to defend fictional characters forcing each other into sex, and although I've never been involved in any 'rape plots,' as it were, I think this is a step in a very dangerous direction. It takes away player agency, which to me is the draw of this game, in an entirely OOC fashion. The way I see it, this is a case of a mature game pandering to players who were (I'm going off assumptions, since we haven't been told what issues caused this) being incredibly immature, rather than simply ignoring whatever sort of hassle they were attempting to create for the staff, and perhaps even throwing around bans if it was such a severe situation. Will this increase our 'Who' count by a couple numbers every night? Sure. But I'd take a lower number of mature players over playing to the lowest common denominator, myself.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: lordcooper on December 25, 2013, 10:14:52 PM
Furthermore, while we are on this topic. What is the rule of consent? Does consenting once just give someone open rein to you time and time again until you specifically OOC them saying I don't consent anymore? How I've always played this is that I will ask consent EVERY time I am to do anything sexual. Unless I have asked in the past for consent until it is specifically taken away. It would appear, based on past events, that staff believes once consent is given it is valid no matter when you come back to the same person again. This I don't agree with. I will continue to treat consent as I have always done in the past until something clear and concise is brought forth in the form of help file documentation.

IIRC you have to ask for consent on each separate occasion.  This makes sense, because there may be people in the room that you are unaware of.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 26, 2013, 12:29:20 AM
Ok, I have gone back and forth in my own mind, largely ambivalent to the idea. While I would never have a PC of mine pursue such a plot, if it happened to mine I would allow it, and not FTB... But that's just me, some don't want to deal with it, or the resulting problems, and if consent is not granted then the plotline shouldn't take place even faded, unless the other party specifically would like it to, and murder for lack of consent should not be an option. If your PC was planning for that from the beginning, they should say OOC: My PC plans to murder your PC, whether or not certain violent actions of a sexual nature take place or not, do you consent to a scene involving sexual violence beforehand, would you rather it be faded, or not take place at all?

I don't like such plotlines, they hurt me somewhere deep inside OOC, but do I think that Zalanthas would be a believable place without them? No, I do not. Murder makes me sick too, as do corruption and betrayal, am I playing the wrong game? No. I'm playing the right game, I'm just not conforming. It still makes me feel ill, but it fits the setting. I think responsible players can sort it out for themselves, and maybe have a bit of OOC sympathy to go with it and not push the issue.

While I can't know what happened, I am disturbed that a few problem players could generate such a mess, but thankful that at least they are attracting attention away from my snowflake mary sue character so I can continue defiling the setting as I see fit. Blanket bans seem a bit extreme. Again, I would never pursue such a plotline, but I am not everyone and I think limiting the freedom of others to RP as they would choose to would be detrimental to the game. I have encountered PCs with rape or potential rape in more than their stories, and these PCs and their stories were very interesting. While they would have been interesting without that additional brush stroke, I think that's part of what I identified with within them OOC, it sort of added another dimension. Would there have been a connection without this element? Oh, yes, of course, but it's what really tugged at my strings and made me feel.

In conclusion, I ask that you strongly reconsider the blanket ban on these sorts of plotlines.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: slvrmoontiger on December 26, 2013, 02:52:28 AM
Are we ever going to be allowed to know what events led up to this decision? I really can't see what could cause so much hassle that it would be worth banning an entire concept from the gameworld. You would think people plotting to overthrow city-states and such would cause much more 'hassle' than scenes that are for the most part between two characters and nothing further. Was this issue so pervasive without my noticing that it was worth dealing with in this blanket way, rather than just dealing with specific players who are causing the problems?

I still remain wholly unconvinced that this is the correct direction for the game to go into. As strange as I feel going all Braveheart to defend fictional characters forcing each other into sex, and although I've never been involved in any 'rape plots,' as it were, I think this is a step in a very dangerous direction. It takes away player agency, which to me is the draw of this game, in an entirely OOC fashion. The way I see it, this is a case of a mature game pandering to players who were (I'm going off assumptions, since we haven't been told what issues caused this) being incredibly immature, rather than simply ignoring whatever sort of hassle they were attempting to create for the staff, and perhaps even throwing around bans if it was such a severe situation. Will this increase our 'Who' count by a couple numbers every night? Sure. But I'd take a lower number of mature players over playing to the lowest common denominator, myself.

Staff has already said that they will not give out the information on what led up to this. I think its like beating a dead horse to continuously ask for this information.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: DustMight on December 26, 2013, 08:35:24 AM
Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 26, 2013, 08:55:02 AM
Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.

I can think of tons of incredible fiction that have included this, even in ftb scenarios.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: DustMight on December 26, 2013, 09:29:35 AM
Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.

I can think of tons of incredible fiction that have included this, even in ftb scenarios.

Right.

The point stands though. It's not needed and with all the negative issues and problems it brings it is not worth it.
It's good to have it gone.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 26, 2013, 10:53:49 AM
Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.

I can think of tons of incredible fiction that have included this, even in ftb scenarios.

Right.

The point stands though. It's not needed and with all the negative issues and problems it brings it is not worth it.
It's good to have it gone.


That's not why it was removed, and that's an invalid argument to having it removed. A lot of things we play with have negative issues appended to them. Rape simply has a very primal response built in to itself. That said - Staff banned it because people kept sending in complaints and they were tired of dealing with that shit. Hell, I'd get real tired of dealing with that shit after the first one.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 26, 2013, 11:23:01 AM
Yup, no moral issues were taken into consideration when this decision was made.

It was made for one reason and one reason only. Because the staff workload associated with player on player rape plotlines, or player on player rape accusations was getting out of hand.

The only outcome that is being taken into consideration in this discussion is the best way to reduce the staff workload while still allowing the playerbase freedom from censorship as much as possible.

That is the goal.

There is no, "Make the game a better place" goal, that was never even a factor in considering this new rule by staff.

(Though initially I thought it was. I'm glad that isn't the case.)

Plainly put, there is no PG13 fear mongering or backing on either side of the argument. You can't say, "We are trying to make the game PG13." because that isn't true. You also can't say, "This makes the game a better place." Because that isn't the goal.

The goal is decreased staff workload with as little censorship as possible to the playerbase.

(If anything beyond decreasing the staff workload was taken into consideration when implementing this rule, then it would be a direct move towards making the game more PG13 friendly, and a step in that direction. So, that can't be the case.)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 26, 2013, 12:14:10 PM
But is having a new rule to enforce truly going to reduce staff workload? That seems backwards to me.

After all, there are almost certainly going to be disputes over what is acceptable under these new rules in the future. Despite having never been involved in what I'd consider a 'rape plotline,' I find myself wondering if things I was involved in will still be acceptable. Without getting into too much IC detail, things like unhealthy (abusive, maybe) relationships and authority figures abusing power to seduce someone who is none too fond of them seem to be natural parts of the world. Both led to interesting character development for me, besides that, and it seems to be rather blurry in both cases whether or not they will be allowed still.

I don't think there's a way to just remove an entire aspect of evil without 'softening' the game world, as it were. Particularly if the virtual and NPC populations are protected by these new rules, doesn't it mean its by definition impossible to make a character with zero moral scruples now?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FantasyWriter on December 26, 2013, 12:19:32 PM
Yeah, rape plotlines are likely on the extremely wasteful end of the value-added versus work-involved scale.
Up there with a lone PC who never interacts with anyone expecting to have his own permanent tent camp added to the game.

But is having a new rule to enforce truly going to reduce staff workload? That seems backwards to me.

Old way: Multiple emails back and forth to players and other staff to see who was in the wrong in a rape plot once a complaint is filed. No one is happy with the result so dealing with multiple staff complaints after the fact.

New way: One email: You violated the rulz expressed <here> concerning rape plotlines. Do it again and you will be banned for <x time period>. Again after that and you will be permanently banned from ArmageddonMUD.

It seems much easier to enforce to me.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 26, 2013, 12:31:23 PM
After all, there are almost certainly going to be disputes over what is acceptable under these new rules in the future. Despite having never been involved in what I'd consider a 'rape plotline,' I find myself wondering if things I was involved in will still be acceptable. Without getting into too much IC detail, things like unhealthy (abusive, maybe) relationships and authority figures abusing power to seduce someone who is none too fond of them seem to be natural parts of the world. Both led to interesting character development for me, besides that, and it seems to be rather blurry in both cases whether or not they will be allowed still.

Staff are just going to have to come out and make it clear what they mean by "rape," as has been asked  of them and (I'm sure) will probably happen after the holidays. Right now you can read rape as everything from violent "subdued in the bazaar and asked for consent" sexual assault to an authority figure coercing someone in to a relationship. If an employer or police officer was using their position to gain sexual favors in real life, I wouldn't view it as very far from rape at all, but in Zalanthas... I'd be kind of sad to see that flavor of corruption gone (even if I can't really say why I'm less bothered by that than the violent stuff. More subdued, less visceral?). I've certainly seen a lot more unequal relationships get played out than sexual violence, and with less apparent trouble.

Do Staff intend for "rape" to be read so broadly? That's another question I'd really like to see answered.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ale six on December 26, 2013, 01:50:33 PM
Malken said it best (gogo House Kawaii, GDB Voice of Reason =^_^=) when he said:

Quote from: Malken, paraphrased because I can't be bothered to find his post way back in this thread
I'm just going to play the same way I always have. If I get banned, I won't even be mad, I'll be amazed.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: slvrmoontiger on December 26, 2013, 02:00:58 PM
I don't believe the workload is going to be any less until staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses. The things that need to be defined are as follows:

1) Define Zalanthian rape. Just say what it is that isn't so hard. Everyone has their own concept as to what rape is. Mine could be completely different than staff's. Its not a matter that I'm calling people stupid or ignorant, its the matter that everyone has a different concept of things. Especially since this game is played by people from around the entire world. This should be defined, in fact it should have been defined long long ago.

2) Does one acceptance of OOC consent make it valid for follow up sessions if it isn't stipulated. Is that consent removed if the IC'ly a character tells another they don't want sex with them anymore? Again I'm looking for staff response on this because again everyone's opinion could possibly differ.

Beyond these two things being defined I don't care one way or another for the banning of rape either in action or as a plotline. I just care about getting definitions straight so I'm not wasting staff's time in the future and I don't wind up with a stored character and possible permaban in the future. I think everyone would want to know this information for the same reasons.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 26, 2013, 02:04:04 PM
staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses.


December 25th was Christmas.

In the US, which is the country most of our staff members are currently citizens of, this is a holiday.

To further expand on that concept. This means they aren't replying to you, or really much of anyone/anything right now because they are taking a holiday break.

If I need to expand that further, it is a lost cause and I decline the acceptance of that responsibility.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 26, 2013, 02:24:48 PM
House Kawaii, GDB Voice of Reason =^_^=

Get outta here, ya crazy varmint!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 26, 2013, 02:33:14 PM
After all, there are almost certainly going to be disputes over what is acceptable under these new rules in the future. Despite having never been involved in what I'd consider a 'rape plotline,' I find myself wondering if things I was involved in will still be acceptable. Without getting into too much IC detail, things like unhealthy (abusive, maybe) relationships and authority figures abusing power to seduce someone who is none too fond of them seem to be natural parts of the world. Both led to interesting character development for me, besides that, and it seems to be rather blurry in both cases whether or not they will be allowed still.

Staff are just going to have to come out and make it clear what they mean by "rape," as has been asked  of them and (I'm sure) will probably happen after the holidays. Right now you can read rape as everything from violent "subdued in the bazaar and asked for consent" sexual assault to an authority figure coercing someone in to a relationship. If an employer or police officer was using their position to gain sexual favors in real life, I wouldn't view it as very far from rape at all, but in Zalanthas... I'd be kind of sad to see that flavor of corruption gone (even if I can't really say why I'm less bothered by that than the violent stuff. More subdued, less visceral?). I've certainly seen a lot more unequal relationships get played out than sexual violence, and with less apparent trouble.

Do Staff intend for "rape" to be read so broadly? That's another question I'd really like to see answered.

hi i am an evil cabbage and this is what rape is:

not consenting to sexual conduct.

solved.

"I want sexy times with you." "I do not consent."

Pursuit: Rape. End of discussion.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 26, 2013, 02:35:35 PM
I don't believe the workload is going to be any less until staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses. The things that need to be defined are as follows:

1) Define Zalanthian rape. Just say what it is that isn't so hard. Everyone has their own concept as to what rape is. Mine could be completely different than staff's. Its not a matter that I'm calling people stupid or ignorant, its the matter that everyone has a different concept of things. Especially since this game is played by people from around the entire world. This should be defined, in fact it should have been defined long long ago.

2) Does one acceptance of OOC consent make it valid for follow up sessions if it isn't stipulated. Is that consent removed if the IC'ly a character tells another they don't want sex with them anymore? Again I'm looking for staff response on this because again everyone's opinion could possibly differ.

Beyond these two things being defined I don't care one way or another for the banning of rape either in action or as a plotline. I just care about getting definitions straight so I'm not wasting staff's time in the future and I don't wind up with a stored character and possible permaban in the future. I think everyone would want to know this information for the same reasons.

the general rule of thumb is ALWAYS ASK FOR CONSENT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT EVER EVER KNOW WHO IS WATCHING AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yasbusta on December 26, 2013, 03:21:50 PM
I don't believe the workload is going to be any less until staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses. The things that need to be defined are as follows:

1) Define Zalanthian rape. Just say what it is that isn't so hard. Everyone has their own concept as to what rape is. Mine could be completely different than staff's. Its not a matter that I'm calling people stupid or ignorant, its the matter that everyone has a different concept of things. Especially since this game is played by people from around the entire world. This should be defined, in fact it should have been defined long long ago.

2) Does one acceptance of OOC consent make it valid for follow up sessions if it isn't stipulated. Is that consent removed if the IC'ly a character tells another they don't want sex with them anymore? Again I'm looking for staff response on this because again everyone's opinion could possibly differ.

Beyond these two things being defined I don't care one way or another for the banning of rape either in action or as a plotline. I just care about getting definitions straight so I'm not wasting staff's time in the future and I don't wind up with a stored character and possible permaban in the future. I think everyone would want to know this information for the same reasons.

the general rule of thumb is ALWAYS ASK FOR CONSENT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT EVER EVER KNOW WHO IS WATCHING AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME.




Pfftt, not really in line with the topic. But if I so choose to do naughty scenes with another char, I will ask for consent and if it becomes a repetitive thing
I ask for a blanket consent, noting that ftb is always wonderful. If accepted no more consent ooc's. If you follow my char without my knowledge, to my apartment with another char, I couldn't care less whether you consent or not, you knew what was happening, its your own damn fault.
Besides if you don't consent you can always OOC I don't wish to watch your fabulous nekkid times, would you open the door so I can leave.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ShaLeah on December 26, 2013, 03:58:55 PM


Pfftt, not really in line with the topic. But if I so choose to do naughty scenes with another char, I will ask for consent and if it becomes a repetitive thing
I ask for a blanket consent, noting that ftb is always wonderful. If accepted no more consent ooc's. If you follow my char without my knowledge, to my apartment with another char, I couldn't care less whether you consent or not, you knew what was happening, its your own damn fault.
Besides if you don't consent you can always OOC I don't wish to watch your fabulous nekkid times, would you open the door so I can leave.

I laughed so hard. My consent messages (especially if I'm playing a whore) are legendary and I always add watchers auto consent. It's already been established that watchers auto consent but I do it anyway. I also establish that between the two or more characters involved in that scene there doesn't need to be consent asked every time.


On topic?

This one's tough. One of my characters got "date raped". I was going to kudos the player but my real world sensitivities stopped me.

The biggest problem is that it's NOT a black and white issue. It's an entirely personal issue. For X # of my characters anal isn't shit (no pun intended) but for that ONE character who was raped, it was NOT okay.


Maybe the problem lies in the illusion that "playing a rape out in text format" isn't going to affect YOU the person in the same way a real rape would, but sometimes detachment from Armageddon situations is impossible. If there are staff having to deal with aftermath of rape scenarios you can bet your ass it's a result of OOC issues, not in world issues and that HAS to be difficult.

I would hope, because it IS a character changing life event, you wouldn't ban the use of the concept, however, between forcing someone to play it out and banning it, I'd choose banning it.

Personally, I'd choose banning playing it out, not happening.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: HavokBlue on December 26, 2013, 04:30:15 PM
I think every time someone has a new question about this topic they should post it in a new thread instead of the thread already devoted to this topic

Yeah

That's a good idea
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Delirium on December 26, 2013, 04:31:12 PM
I think every time someone has a new question about this topic they should post it in a new thread instead of the thread already devoted to this topic

Yeah

That's a good idea

(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/thumbs_up_matt_leblanc.gif)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Eyeball on December 26, 2013, 04:59:15 PM
An alternative approach would be for new players to have to click a button explicitly accepting that rape of all degrees, including false accusations, might happen in game, since Zalanthas is a violent and dark place. The same way you have to "accept" terms and conditions before downloading software.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yummri on December 26, 2013, 05:05:22 PM
Quote
An alternative approach would be for new players to have to click a button explicitly accepting that rape of all degrees, including false accusations, might happen in game, since Zalanthas is a violent and dark place. The same way you have to "accept" terms and conditions before downloading software.

Wait...you read those before you just click accept blindly?

Who knew.
In all seriousness, I don't see that working, in the same way as it doesn't really work now.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 26, 2013, 06:17:54 PM
EDIT: Nevermind...
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Shik on December 26, 2013, 06:40:13 PM
I haven't read through all the posts yet, but I wanted to throw in my two sids.

During my time, I have personally experienced two scenerios of rape. It didn't traumatize me as much as the harrowing time on another mud. I was tormented everytime I logged in for two days. I had it in my mind that one day I would be free again since other characters had access to my cell, but then I was strangled by the one character I trusted after revealing my plan to try to bring my assailant to justice after feigning submission. Never-ever saw that one coming.

Jeez.. It is hard, and I have this vague miserable sensation just while typing this up. Rape is horrible. Betrayal is terrible. Both were too much, and I wept. You know that aching feeling, the writhing in your gut, after brutally losing your favorite character? You may have felt sick. Well, this made me feel very sick.

I believe that staff having to get involved in any sort of sexual situation would be loathsome. I understand why the new rule is in place, and the pain these situations can cause. Better yet, this may also save drama by preventing innocent characters being accused of rape and being swiftly slaughtered.

I agree with ShaLeah in that this could go into fade territory. Even still, I prefer the old consent rule to "You shall not pass!" rule where the smoky rape demon falls into deep pit to be forgotten as a plot device and game element. Maybe I am weird. But people can just murder your ass if feelings are unrequited or they need a sense of dominance and power.

Despite having a mature community and benevolent staff, there will always some grief and pain. I am not certain how I feel about it the new rule, for Zalanthas is a harsh world full of pitfalls and pain. Maybe this wil be better for the game as a whole, but it will certainly change things.

Quote from: Half Elves Documentation
If you are a new player to Armageddon, you should be aware that half
elves are often a product of rape sexy elves stealing human sperm through clever and consentual seduction
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ShaLeah on December 26, 2013, 07:05:57 PM
I agree with ShaLeah

You are not alone. Welcome./me opens ^me arms wide, invitingly.

Quote from: Half Elves Documentation
If you are a new player to Armageddon, you should be aware that half
elves are often a product of rapesexy elves stealing human sperm through clever and consentual seduction

I never even thought about that! Whoa... BUT!

Quote from: Half Elves Documentation
If you are a new player to Armageddon, you should be aware that half
elves are hypothetically a product of rapesexy filthy, disgusting elves stealing the supreme goodliness that is human sperm through clever abominable and consentual seduction magicks. Open speculation about these happenings will be cause for immediate storage.

FTFY YW
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: slvrmoontiger on December 26, 2013, 07:07:12 PM
staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses.


December 25th was Christmas.

In the US, which is the country most of our staff members are currently citizens of, this is a holiday.

To further expand on that concept. This means they aren't replying to you, or really much of anyone/anything right now because they are taking a holiday break.

If I need to expand that further, it is a lost cause and I decline the acceptance of that responsibility.

Sorry D-Man and to any staff that took my post as something that they were ignoring me or simply not responding. I'm just sick of the same thing going over and over again and people adding their comments to things that I asked from staff. As far as I care people commenting on my posts that are no staff means very little to me as those people don't decide punishments for others. So I am just waiting for staff to have time to review and respond and create official help documentation. If other's would like to comment on what I have requested that's fine and up to them, for me it is just a waste of time to read what they think as in the long run it doesn't answer my question.

Once again I do appreciate the time and energy staff does put into reading things and working on things to make Armageddon the best MUD there is. I hope everyone had and has a happy holiday season and has time to spend with their family, friends, and loved ones.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 26, 2013, 08:48:58 PM
I remember a time when armageddon wasn't a place for over-sensitive, politically correct do-gooders.

I recall a general policy that pretty much stated: We have permadeath. You may be robbed, tortured, raped, enslaved, teleported into a wilderness you can't get out of, eaten(by creatures OR people), or killed in any number of ways. You will die, a lot. It won't be "fair". If all of this doesn't sound like a good time to you, perhaps armageddon isn't the place for you.

I feel like armageddon was the last bastion of true roleplaying to be had in MUDs. I believe that limiting RP topics between consenting players damages that roleplaying dynamic.

I don't agree with this change, and would like to see a shift back towards the roots of arm, when admins told people to stop being a crybaby.




Possible Solution to staff being overworked by this topic:

Why not just take a hard line stance on the consent rule, and ban people who break it? Consent is only needed if engaging in the act yourself. Simple rule. No consent, it doesn't happen. That, IMO, is already overly catering. Consent for scene or FTB is fine imo, but I understand that I'm old school. So, what's wrong with two consenting players playing a scene they both want to partake in?

If people are sending in requests and creating staff workload over hearing someone tell a story in the bar about a character being raped, and the story bothers them, they can be told by staff to ICly excuse themselves, or OOCly get over it. If they continue to whine about it, take disciplinary action against the whiner for creating unnecessary workload.

If arm staff has arrived at the point where they're bending over backwards to ensure they OOCly don't hurt any feelings, I'd say that's the beginning of the end.

Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ShaLeah on December 26, 2013, 09:05:41 PM
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1381764_10151994560289257_1149101044_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Lizzie on December 26, 2013, 09:27:53 PM
Why not just take a hard line stance on the consent rule, and ban people who break it? Consent is only needed if engaging in the act yourself. Simple rule. No consent, it doesn't happen. That, IMO, is already overly catering. Consent for scene or FTB is fine imo, but I understand that I'm old school. So, what's wrong with two consenting players playing a scene they both want to partake in?


Because according to the staff's posts about the issue, it stems not from unconsented RP of rape. It stems from a combination of the staff having to deal with consent vs. non-consent, complaints on a more regular basis than the staff has energy to expend on this one specific subject, plus someone *accusing* someone else ICly of a rape that never happened and then subsequent complaints to staff about it, and the staff having to get in the middle of it.

Just way too much shit about too little of a subject.

My issue with it is only with regards to the whole VNPC thing, that characters aren't allowed to reference rape in their roleplay, like "The reason my character genned in the Firestorm this particular day is - she was left for dead outside the city after being raped by elves, has nothing to her name except the few hundred sids she saved up over the last four years, which she just took out of the bank, and the clothes on her back. Those nasty elves would've made off with her clothes too but they ran off when a non-descript hunter rode by. This explains her absolute loathing of elves, an odd fear of half-elves, and a particular attraction to hunters."

That scenario - is no longer allowed to exist. It is not allowed to have happened. Sure it's far fetched, and it's not the best creative construct I could have come up with, but I made it up just this moment without giving it much thought. No one is allowed to give it any thought at all. And that is the issue I have with it.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Malken on December 26, 2013, 09:28:06 PM
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1381764_10151994560289257_1149101044_n.jpg)

* rape and batteries not included.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 26, 2013, 09:32:18 PM
As an addendum to my previous post, if staff's entire reason for doing this is because the staff workload is out of hand due to requests related to this, I'd be willing to volunteer my services as insensitive administrator of OOC rape requests. My admin name will be IAORR. I will ban those who break the consent rule, and send everyone else an identical form letter:

"Dear Arm Player,

Grow a thicker skin, and welcome to armageddon. If you need further assistance from a certified professional, you may contact the free rape hotline at: 1-800-656-HOPE

Sincerely,

IAORR"


Staff isn't here to be rape counselors. They're not here to stroke egos, or babysit feelings. They're here to facilitate a coded roleplaying environment that boasts an unprecedented amount of roleplaying freedom. One man's freedom hurts another man's feelings. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Malken on December 26, 2013, 09:34:08 PM
As an addendum to my previous post, if staff's entire reason for doing this is because the staff workload is out of hand due to requests related to this, I'd be willing to volunteer my services as insensitive administrator of OOC rape requests. My admin name will be IAORR. I will ban those who break the consent rule, and send everyone else an identical form letter:

Staff, you need to change Heade's title to "Senior Armageddon Raping Expert"
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 26, 2013, 09:35:03 PM

hi i am an evil cabbage and this is what rape is:

not consenting to sexual conduct.

solved.

"I want sexy times with you." "I do not consent."

Pursuit: Rape. End of discussion.

I expanded further on the examples I brought up to try to show you that what you're saying is a vast oversimplification, but I fear they had too many inferable IC details included, so I decided against posting it. I really don't believe it is always, or even usually, as simple as you're putting it however.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 26, 2013, 09:38:25 PM
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RAPE RAPE RAEP

Of your "good ol' days" list, the only thing that can't still happen is being raped. Everything else still happens on a daily basis. You can even still be enslaved, it just amounts to storage/unorthodox PK because you can no longer play that character. Sure, this rule change was a shock, but it's not like the list of horrible things that can happen to our PCs has been gutted.

I thought it'd be interesting to go look at the old consent rules. As I suspected, accusation plotlines (which seemed to require far more staff resources to investigate and monitor) weren't very well accounted for; certainly it was never clearly spelled out that if you even tell Malik that Talia raped Amos, you have to get consent from Talia's PC first.

Quote from: http://old.armageddon.org/general/rules.html
Apart from the requirement that people roleplay realistically here, there are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, please OOC to make sure that the roleplay is consented to. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you (the player) uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape death/torture/etc., but is intended for adult situations, such as torture or rape, which some players and staff may not wish to witness. If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be permanently banned.

 Specifically in the case of roleplaying through a rape, the instigator takes on added responsibility. In this case, the instigator absolutely must OOCly ask for and must obtain explicit consent from the victim's player prior to involving their character in any emote specifically indicative of the act of rape, no matter how non-graphical you believe it to be.

I feel like those rules could have and should have been clarified. However, I also feel that if Staff thought that would solve all their problems stemming from Rape plotlines, they would have done that instead. Lizzie's probably right, it was a combination of problems that led to this change.  For all I know, for every accusation plotline gone awry that I'm aware of, there were a thousand idiots not adhering to consent. It's still important to remember that the solution wasn't as easy as banning peeps.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 26, 2013, 09:53:58 PM
Of your "good ol' days" list, the only thing that can't still happen is being raped. Everything else still happens on a daily basis. You can even still be enslaved, it just amounts to storage/unorthodox PK because you can no longer play that character.

Being forced to store if you're enslaved, and being banned from playing a slave does not = being able to be enslaved. You get absolutely zero RP out of storing or being banned from playing something.

I thought it'd be interesting to go look at the old consent rules. As I suspected, accusation plotlines (which seemed to require far more staff resources to investigate and monitor) weren't very well accounted for; certainly it was never clearly spelled out that if you even tell Malik that Talia raped Amos, you have to get consent from Talia's PC first.

I don't think you should have to get consent to accuse someone of rape. It's no different than accusing someone of murder, or theft, or whatever. If it's true, you're doing nothing at all wrong IC, and if it's not, then you're trying to get them in trouble, and no distinction need be made between accusing someone of murder, or the lesser crime of rape.


It's still important to remember that the solution wasn't as easy as banning peeps.

It absolutely is. Years ago, when Halaster was around, staff gave one-word responses to page-long requests. If you make your playerbase aware of the fact that personal, OOC boo-hoo requests are going to be largely ignored, your email box won't be full of them. It all starts with a "No. Deal with it."


It all boils down to the world thinking everyone needs to be sensitive and understanding. We don't. The world doesn't need more whiners. When everyone is sensitive and understanding, it creates more whiners. Whiners always mess up a good thing. So, to get whiners to stop messing up good stuff, stop being sensitive and understanding. This politically correct cesspool of a planet where no one speaks their mind already has enough of "sensitive and understanding".


EDIT: I'm all for the consent rule. But the consent rule should only protect someone from having to RP through rape, or have to play a victim. It should not be blanket protection from ever having to hear the word. If the word alone is that destructive, that simply hearing it causes someone problems, then they really should be seeking professional help, and not roleplaying in a harsh landscape like armageddon.

Seeing people get murdered is traumatic too. But you don't see people joining a game like arm, then lobbying to have all killing removed from the game, or have a "consent" rule for murder because they had a traumatic past. People who that topic is too sensitive for simply avoid games with that topic included, or they accept the reality that it is a part of a game they otherwise love. It really irritates me that something like rape is singled out as being abhorrent when there is so much worse that can be done to people.

I also find it hilarious that many people who have spoken out against the blanket rule change have felt the need to add qualifiers like "I've never played through a rape scene, and don't pursue those storylines, but....".

As if by not adding these disclaimers they're going to be labelled rapists and deviants. It's a game. It takes place in a rough world. In similar times, on earth, rape was considered part of the spoils of war. It was part of a soldier's prize for victory. I understand that some people have had horrible experiences with rape. Just like others have had horrible experiences with witnessing murder. If being reminded of such situations is too traumatic for either of them, they probably should not RP in a world like arm.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: flurry on December 26, 2013, 10:04:02 PM
Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

Probably a good thing to remember, even for policy changes.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Delusion on December 26, 2013, 10:04:42 PM
Haven't ever encountered an incidence of rape in-game, myself. It's a little startling to hear that it was common enough to create a substantial workload for staff.

Personally, I'm quite happy to see it gone. Not that I realised it was there to begin with. I've never met anyone in real life who has been murdered or tortured, nor even heard of an attempt at such. I've met a few who have been raped or sexually assaulted. Thankfully, it's never happened to me, but it's still a distressingly common occurrence worldwide, especially relative to various other heinous acts, and one where overt references to it, even fictional, may hit uncomfortably close to home for some.

Anyway, I'll go on doing what I've always done, and can't imagine I'll break any rules in the process. Common sense prevails.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FantasyWriter on December 26, 2013, 10:17:41 PM
Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

Probably a good thing to remember, even for policy changes.
I laughed.... very nice. :D
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 26, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
If you guys want to play a game where you can wantonly cross the moral boundries of other players without their consent, I suggest going to play HellMOO.

Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

Probably a good thing to remember, even for policy changes.
(http://i.imgur.com/cLbQP1D.gif)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 26, 2013, 10:26:23 PM
If you guys want to play a game where you can wantonly cross the moral boundries of other players without their consent, I suggest going to play HellMOO.

No one said anything about doing away with the already in place consent rule, so please stop trying to frame our arguments against this rule as such.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 26, 2013, 10:29:53 PM
I'm all for the consent rule. But the consent rule should only protect someone from having to RP through rape, or have to play a victim. It should not be blanket protection from ever having to hear the word. If the word alone is that destructive, that simply hearing it causes someone problems, then they really should be seeking professional help, and not roleplaying in a harsh landscape like armageddon.

If you read the as-of-yet undefined ruling, it doesn't say you can never use the word "rape".  It does say that we can no longer roleplay out rape or accuse someone of rape.  From what I can tell, you can't threaten rape, such as:  "Ooh, I'm a scary bad guy, I'ma rape you with this here stuffed gith penis *fearsome gaze*".  There will be clarification, obviously.

For my own part, I'd rather not be the one who causes someone psychological pain, and I don't think that's a sensitivity issue, it's a human decency issue.  Just because we play murderous, vile assholes on a game, it definitely doesn't mean you have to be one in the real world.  There is no parallel, sorry.

The crux of the matter here is that rape is too mature for a troublesome portion of this playerbase.  Sorry for the rest of us who simply don't care, never had a problem, or were handling that RP responsibly.  Some minority group has made it too much a pain in the ass, and now it's gone.

So far, I've only seen a few people say "omg, all my rapez" over this being gone.  The main concern is a question of either a slippery slope of censorship (contradicted plainly by staff) or worries about limiting character development (hopefully amended in the near future).

This game still has murder, corruption and betrayal.  Those are truly the best parts of it.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 26, 2013, 10:32:49 PM
Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

Probably a good thing to remember, even for policy changes.

No doubt. I will get over it either way. But this situation brings to mind:

    First they came for the Communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.

    Then they came for the Socialists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.


There will always be someone to complain about something. If you continuously remove elements of the game when over-sensitive people complain that it hurts their feelings, eventually nothing will be left of the game. And when it comes time for them to remove the elements of the game that you like, others who might have argued in defense of that may no longer be there, having lost interest in the game several issues before that. You remember, back when you didn't speak up, because it wasn't an issue you cared about.

The solution isn't to remove the ability for consenting players to play scenes they both want to. The solution is to remove complainers who generate too large a workload over an issue that they have the option to ignore, and not RP.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 26, 2013, 10:38:48 PM
That was pretty deep... I think you're winning the thread.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 26, 2013, 10:40:25 PM
For my own part, I'd rather not be the one who causes someone psychological pain, and I don't think that's a sensitivity issue, it's a human decency issue.  Just because we play murderous, vile assholes on a game, it definitely doesn't mean you have to be one in the real world.  There is no parallel, sorry.

If people who had relatives murdered in front of them were sending tons of requests in to the staff about character death being too traumatic on them, and staff responded by eliminating character death from the game, do you think that would be ok? That is the parallel here.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 26, 2013, 10:45:51 PM
For my own part, I'd rather not be the one who causes someone psychological pain, and I don't think that's a sensitivity issue, it's a human decency issue.  Just because we play murderous, vile assholes on a game, it definitely doesn't mean you have to be one in the real world.  There is no parallel, sorry.

If people who had relatives murdered in front of them were sending tons of requests in to the staff about character death being too traumatic on them, and staff responded by eliminating character death from the game, do you think that would be ok? That is the parallel here.

There is no parallel, because these two things are not congruent.  Staff may say this is a workload issue, but why do you think that is?  Because it's an issue that is too sensitive and mature for some people to handle.  That's it, pure and simple.  And why is it seemingly more sensitive an issue than murder?  Look at the numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States

In turn, if you look at murder statistics, you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than being murdered, much less witnessing a murder.  Even in America.  In fact, many of us play this game (myself included) to chop up mothafuckaz with bone swordz.  It's a fantasy.

Anyway, if you were psychologically traumatized by witnessing murder and torture, would you come to a game that has Murder in the tagline?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 26, 2013, 10:59:49 PM
I should clarify, though, that I'm in the camp of "why the vNPCs?"  They can't make staff complaints.  In fact, it seems perfectly fine to just take out the PC-to-PC action of rape, and leave it at that.  No mess, no fuss.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 26, 2013, 11:02:21 PM
Anyway, if you were psychologically traumatized by witnessing murder and torture, would you come to a game that has Murder in the tagline?

No, and that's my point. People are making the rape thing an issue because it's being allowed to be made an issue. If staff just said,

"Look, rape happens. If you don't want to play a victim, you have the right to deny consent to play a victim. If the other party tries to make you a victim anyhow, log it and send a request, and they will be punished. Beyond that, we don't want to hear about how it hurts your feelings to hear about it at all. If you send us frivolous requests regarding this issue, in which you are not specifically being forced into a victim role, the punishment will be handed out to you for wasting staff's time. Have a great day."

This would weed out those too sensitive to deal with that type of mature content in any way, while maintaining the integrity of the game. I haven't seen a lot of rape in the game, but I certainly believe that it should have a right to exist.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 26, 2013, 11:09:31 PM
I'm inclined to think that in a perfect situation of a cut and dry rape scene, that 60% of the time, that works every time.  But the problem is the grey areas that required staff input, not once, not twice, but many times from different parties.  Ultimately, because of the complexity and sensitivity of the issue, that appears to be what has happened.

I don't think saying, now, that we'll be good kids is gonna get that particular toy back.  I'm hoping staff will continue to let it be a part of the game's atmosphere, though.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 26, 2013, 11:11:34 PM
I feel like the negative energy that rape presents when it becomes the focus of plotlines is a lot more than what it contributes to the game when it becomes involved in a plotline whatsoever.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 26, 2013, 11:29:03 PM
I roleplayed with someone who's character had been raped in her backstory, and it totally shaped her playstyle. I enjoyed RPing with that character, probably moreso than any other character I've ever interacted with, and this new rule would have made that character not exist, at least in the form that she did.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 26, 2013, 11:33:52 PM
I roleplayed with someone who's character had been raped in her backstory, and it totally shaped her playstyle. I enjoyed RPing with that character, probably moreso than any other character I've ever interacted with, and this new rule would have made that character not exist, at least in the form that she did.

Yeah, I'm honestly getting tired of talking about rape, but as a closing remark, I do hope we get to keep things such as this.  It's been said you can still include rape in your backstory, but you can't talk about it.  I hope the rules are amended so that it can still be a subject of discussion, and even a viable threat.  I never used it, myself, but I'm sure someone, somewhere has done it, and done it well.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: DustMight on December 26, 2013, 11:56:47 PM
Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.

I can think of tons of incredible fiction that have included this, even in ftb scenarios.

Right.

The point stands though. It's not needed and with all the negative issues and problems it brings it is not worth it.
It's good to have it gone.


That's not why it was removed, and that's an invalid argument to having it removed. A lot of things we play with have negative issues appended to them. Rape simply has a very primal response built in to itself. That said - Staff banned it because people kept sending in complaints and they were tired of dealing with that shit. Hell, I'd get real tired of dealing with that shit after the first one.

I wasn't stating why it was removed - I was stating why I was glad it was removed.  I'm glad. I didn't like it, don't think it's needed.  That is all.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Riya OniSenshi on December 26, 2013, 11:57:26 PM
The only thing I want to know, if staff has time, is can we still use "rape" in its non-sexual form?

I've known more than one PC that could be called a "rapist of the natural world", and whose actions when in the wastes could only be described as "raping the environment for profit". Some of them were talked about in-game this way.

Is this too banned?

And for clarification, I'm using the definition of rape found on dictionary.com, specifically definitions #4 and #7 (and possibly #5 and #8):
Quote from: The Dictionary
rape   [reyp]
noun
1.
the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3.
statutory rape.
4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5.
Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
verb (used with object), raped, rap·ing.
6.
to force to have sexual intercourse.
7.
to plunder (a place); despoil.
8.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.
verb (used without object), raped, rap·ing.
9.
to commit rape.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: DustMight on December 27, 2013, 12:05:05 AM
I've known more than one PC that could be called a "rapist of the natural world", and whose actions when in the wastes could only be described as "raping the environment for profit". Some of them were talked about in-game this way.

I've known real-life friends who use the word "rape" in a non-sexual form; "I'm so hungry I'm going to rape the fridge" being one example and of course "raping mother earth of her minerals" or what-have-you.

I've always found it, like wanton RL use of vulgarity, to be weak, pedestrian and generally an indicator of the lack of imagination on the part of the one speaking so.  Judicious use could certainly be useful - but few seem to use it this way.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 27, 2013, 01:32:41 AM
Well. I guess I'll just join the House Kawaii "Keep playing how I was, and be shocked if I get banned" camp and call it a day. No use fighting a battle I can't win. If I get stored because my character is sleeping with someone out of fearing them or some other less honest motive rather than some old-fashioned monogamous, missionary-style Zalanthan love, or for a particularly crude one of mine mentioning that she would do some less than honorable things to someone, or even saying that such threats exist in a harsh world like the one we've created, I'm not so certain I want to keep playing them anyway. I don't think I was involved in any of the things that led to this decision being made, so hopefully I'll be safe from the rules that were designed to stop them.

And with that, I bow out of this thread...Though I did that before and my need to argue drew me right back, so we'll see how it goes this time!  ;)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Lutagar on December 27, 2013, 02:17:16 AM
Well. I guess I'll just join the House Kawaii "Keep playing how I was, and be shocked if I get banned" camp and call it a day.

This.

I don't think anything we can post in this thread could make staff change their minds. I'm probably going to martyr and not heed this new rule, then go play elsewhere if/when I get banned for it. Anyone else who disagrees or is considering leaving over this should do the same.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Potaje on December 27, 2013, 03:07:23 AM
If the workload on the subject is so heavy, does that mean there are that many unprecedented numbers of players acting out non-consenting rapes and or tortures?

I for one have sexualized torture, without having to actual rape, but eluded to such possibilities to create edge. I have stroked victim's hair in a toying fashion while deciding their fate. Such things that I could be banned for now, if I have the right of it.

Nothing I have done was without consent first, I must include. Nor had I ever received a complaint or warning. Surely their are those of use that are responsible in our approach that the new rule is a bit.. mystifying.

I too remember a time when I thought something harsh, to harsh in my first year of playing and staff said, grow a thicker skin.

I would think that the work load for complaints of unfairness in other ways, including being murdered would out number that of the topic, but if it doesn't I am a gawk of surprise.

I also had to stop an ponder the whole -being accused falsely-. At first I thought this might of referenced in game, ad to that I thought, Shit happens, people get accused of all sorts of things that get them killed.

Then I stopped to consider maybe the false accusation was on an ooc level. That I could see being harsh to deal with.

All I can say is that there are so many questions and things simply unanswered for me to take a hard line stance on it. But I currently don't agree with loosing the edge  for concern of where it will continue to draw Arm to.
 
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: thewolfen3 on December 27, 2013, 03:15:44 AM
Maybe, with them freeing up a bit of their staff management, we can have nice things with their focus on different matters.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BleakOne on December 27, 2013, 03:51:56 AM
Wow, I spend a few days off the internet for Christmas and come back to eleven pages of this...

Jeez...

The staff of Arm a pretty damn awesome. I have no doubt this new rule will be enforced with the care it is due, and they won't be tossing permabans around for any vaguely related slip-of-the-tongue (or text, as the case may be). I think people might need to stop freaking out about it like it's the end of the Known.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: spicemustflow on December 27, 2013, 04:34:12 AM
I wish people would stop whining about Christmas in this thread, it's fucking annoying.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 27, 2013, 04:40:07 AM
but joke. . .and. . . juxtaposition. . .
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: spicemustflow on December 27, 2013, 04:53:01 AM
I don't see any joke, just people complaining how all this rape is polluting their wholesome holiday.

 
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Lutagar on December 27, 2013, 05:00:55 AM
Their wholesome holiday is polluting our rape thread. They can go make another thread to wish one another a merry Christmas or whatever.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 27, 2013, 07:28:30 AM
I'm thrilled not to even be asked any more. It always felt like the text equivalent of being groped in the subway. Maybe nothing particularly damaging took place, but it still leaves you feeling icky.

Does that make me an oversensitive whiner? Maybe. Don't care.

For me the only issue on the table is the vnpc world. I think they are imaginary and don't need to be spared from harm. Is this a huge issue for me? No. But I see what people are saying about villains. And I don't think that on most days much damage will arise from the wholesale abuse of the entirely imaginary virtual population.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 27, 2013, 10:13:18 AM
My greatest issue with this whole thing from a playability standpoint....

Every single villain I play now will have to be asexual, or for some reason be rotten in every single aspect of their existence, except their sexual desires.

EVERY SINGLE VILLAIN WILL ONLY WANT LOVING CARING CONSENSUAL  SEX.

With the rule the way it is now, you aren't even allowed to THINK horrible rotten things in regards to your sexual psychological makeup.

That is so jarring to me I can't even imagine playing a villain if I am forced to follow that mindset. Being wicked and evil means I am not ABLE to feel caring loving emotions towards other people. That is what makes you a villain. The inability to empathize with the fears or pain of others.

So, every single villain I play will be forced to be asexual, or have an extremely IC'ly jarring weak spot for caring how people feel when it comes to the sex.

"So Evil Amos, you want to go down to the tavern and see about gettin' some tail tonight?"

"Ummm, well I would really like to, but I don't care for the sex."


Or...

"So Evil Amos, you want to go down to the tavern and see about gettin' some tail tonight?"

"Sure, but only if she is up for it. I can't bring myself to force myself on anyone. It isn't right."



If you take rape out of the virtual world, or out completely to the point you can't even play a rapist (even if you don't rape PC's), then suddenly, the two above scenarios are the ONLY way a villain can answer sexual questions.

They either have to be pure when it comes to their sexual desires, or have no sexual desires.

Which is jarring no matter how you put it, and pretty damned stupid really.

In the past it would go like this....

"So Evil Amos, want to head down to the tavern and get some tail?"

"Sure fella', you go in and get ya' some tail after payin' for drinks. I'll be tha' guy knockin'm in tha' skull for free when they stagger out later."


Then of course that wouldn't happen. But it allowed me to illustrate the sexual psychology of my psychopath. With the new rules, I can't even do that, even though not a single PC was ever raped.

It is at this point we enter into the field of censoring just to censor with no measurable payoff, and it is at that point, it is an obvious push to PG13, because it is no longer about limiting the number of player complaints for staff workload, and it is at that point it is really just about thought policing the playerbase to make it more user friendly for everyone.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 27, 2013, 10:21:58 AM
I think you can have a villian who is not a rapist. There are a lot of ways to be dysfunctional that are not rape.
Have abusive relationships. Get into their pants then lose interest in them. Insult them. Betray them. Kill them after. Or yes. Be asexual.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 27, 2013, 10:23:46 AM
I think you can have a villian who is not a rapist. There are a lot of ways to be dysfunctional that are not rape.

Sure, I can, I illustrated above how to do that.

It is just jarring.

When I play villains, I play VILLAINS. People who are rotten beyond rotten. They lack the ability to feel anything good in life. The pain of others is their only payoff. They are the reason your kids hide under the blankets at night.

But now I have two options, asexual, or for some reason they have a jarring weak spot when it comes to other's feelings in regards to sex.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Dakota on December 27, 2013, 10:38:04 AM
Anyway, if you were psychologically traumatized by witnessing murder and torture, would you come to a game that has Murder in the tagline?

No, and that's my point. People are making the rape thing an issue because it's being allowed to be made an issue. If staff just said,

"Look, rape happens. If you don't want to play a victim, you have the right to deny consent to play a victim. If the other party tries to make you a victim anyhow, log it and send a request, and they will be punished. Beyond that, we don't want to hear about how it hurts your feelings to hear about it at all. If you send us frivolous requests regarding this issue, in which you are not specifically being forced into a victim role, the punishment will be handed out to you for wasting staff's time. Have a great day."

This would weed out those too sensitive to deal with that type of mature content in any way, while maintaining the integrity of the game. I haven't seen a lot of rape in the game, but I certainly believe that it should have a right to exist.

+

I roleplayed with someone who's character had been raped in her backstory, and it totally shaped her playstyle. I enjoyed RPing with that character, probably moreso than any other character I've ever interacted with, and this new rule would have made that character not exist, at least in the form that she did.

Both of these points are dead on.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Delirium on December 27, 2013, 10:44:45 AM
In Zalanthas, it's extremely unlikely that rape would be treated as more than violent assault. It would not carry the same sexual stigma and shame and issues as it does in the real world. Since this thread has done little but prove that the playerbase as a whole is not capable of thinking in those terms, I'm glad that rape plotlines have been removed. No one has said that you can't keep the virtual gameworld and its consequences in mind, or reflect that they exist.

edited for less pre-coffee snark.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 27, 2013, 10:48:04 AM
Haede is right. But being right doesn't matter. You can be right all day long, and it won't matter because you don't have the power here.

Staff has already said the rule is going to stick. Even if they decided they felt differently at this point, the rule would stick regardless because that is just how it is. The rule HAS to stick at this point because that is the stance that has been taken. You can't back down off of your stance once you have taken it.

So let's let that go.

At this point they have said they may be willing to re-word some of the rules in a way that would allow us to keep rape in at least the virtual world and in our mindsets/backgrounds and for roleplay purposes that aren't PC to PC.

Let's focus on not having that taken away from us for no reason at this point.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Lizzie on December 27, 2013, 10:52:37 AM
In Zalanthas, it's extremely unlikely that rape would be treated as more than violent assault. It would not carry the same sexual stigma and shame and issues as it does in the real world. Since this thread has done little but prove that the playerbase as a whole is not capable of thinking in those terms, I'm glad it's been removed from the (non-virtual) game. No one has said that you can't keep the virtual gameworld in mind. That's called roleplaying.

Yeah, they have said you can't keep it in mind, to the extent that you're not allowed to RP your character's behavior as a result of the virtual background. In other words -

If Lady Templar asks the city elf, "Why do you keep shoving my pet human aide's attempts to feed you away from you?"

You're not _allowed_ to tell her it's because you and your mother were both raped by humans and as a result, you reject human assistance.

At that point you'd probably need to just go OOC and tell them that the game rules don't allow you to consent to the discussion that might normally take place, and therefore the templar needs to just drop the subject.

That's roleplaying huh? No. It isn't. It's avoiding roleplay.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 27, 2013, 10:54:29 AM



You can put that your pc was a rapist in the background. You can't play out being a rapist in game, even if it's purely in mindset and not action.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Delirium on December 27, 2013, 10:55:57 AM
As I understand it via reading the rest of the thread, you are allowed to say so, you just aren't allowed to finger a PC as the culprit (therefore creating a plot that brings it into the non-virtual, non-backstory world). You people have made fearmongering and overreaction into an artform.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 27, 2013, 10:56:47 AM
- You cannot accuse a VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot persecute a VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  

(Not disagreeing with you Delirium, trust me I WANT you to be right. I'm just quoting the guidelines that make us both disappointed.)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 27, 2013, 11:21:33 AM
In Zalanthas, it's extremely unlikely that rape would be treated as more than violent assault. It would not carry the same sexual stigma and shame and issues as it does in the real world. Since this thread has done little but prove that the playerbase as a whole is not capable of thinking in those terms, I'm glad that rape plotlines have been removed.

Me too, and for the same reasons.

Only in this community can staff put more of a focus on genuine "murder, corrpution, betrayal" plots and get this vitriolic response where players are screaming that other players are too sensitive for this game or that they will simply disregard the rules and let the chips fall where they may.

The actual wording of the rule is a valid concern but that is something that will be worked out over time. It doesn't really help that people are setting up laughable strawmen that wouldn't pass muster in a middle school debate club as arguments entirely against the rule, though.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 27, 2013, 11:57:45 AM
- You cannot accuse a VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot persecute a VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  

(Not disagreeing with you Delirium, trust me I WANT you to be right. I'm just quoting the guidelines that make us both disappointed.)

Dude.  As I later said we're going to be reworking the wording.  I just haven't gotten too it because you know. Xmas, Birthday and other stuff.  Please give us a couple of days.  We should have some helpfile updates by then.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 27, 2013, 11:58:13 AM
Happy birthday Adhira!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 27, 2013, 11:58:34 AM
And FYI, Delirium and Cutthroat are both right.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 27, 2013, 11:58:52 AM
Happy birthday Adhira!
Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 27, 2013, 12:00:11 PM
- You cannot accuse a VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot persecute a VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  

(Not disagreeing with you Delirium, trust me I WANT you to be right. I'm just quoting the guidelines that make us both disappointed.)

Dude.  As I later said we're going to be reworking the wording.  I just haven't gotten too it because you know. Xmas, Birthday and other stuff.  Please give us a couple of days.  We should have some helpfile updates by then.

I'm right there with you (and many thanks for that btw). My previous posts pointed out exactly that. I was more just pointing out WHY people are up in Arms with the initial wording. I should have thrown in a line that it has already been said it will be looked at again.


At this point they have said they may be willing to re-word some of the rules in a way that would allow us to keep rape in at least the virtual world and in our mindsets/backgrounds and for roleplay purposes that aren't PC to PC.



Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 27, 2013, 12:01:04 PM
I didn't bother reading all the other posts, I admit. I just read the last like... 3.   ;D
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 27, 2013, 12:24:51 PM
Doesn't matter. Thread's pretty much become...
(http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif)
Everybody just wants to voice their opinion.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: boog on December 27, 2013, 12:26:34 PM
In Zalanthas, it's extremely unlikely that rape would be treated as more than violent assault. It would not carry the same sexual stigma and shame and issues as it does in the real world. Since this thread has done little but prove that the playerbase as a whole is not capable of thinking in those terms, I'm glad that rape plotlines have been removed. No one has said that you can't keep the virtual gameworld and its consequences in mind, or reflect that they exist.

edited for less pre-coffee snark.

It's been mentioned, or at least touched upon by others.

This holier than thou attitude held by some players is disheartening. Calling others immature or otherwise insulting their arguments is, to me, worse than discussing fictional rape around the holidays.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Patuk on December 27, 2013, 12:38:06 PM
I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Kalai on December 27, 2013, 01:05:45 PM
I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

Not up for expressing exactly why right now, but you should know the second sentence of this makes my skin crawl, for callousness on an OOC level. :-\
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 27, 2013, 01:07:10 PM
I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

Considering all the other forms of murder, corruption, and in-character asshattery we get up to, I doubt there's a serious inability of the playerbase to "detach from earth's morality." The change isn't about pandering to those who can't, it's about putting a stop to an issue that was sucking up a disproportionate amount of staff attention and energy.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Patuk on December 27, 2013, 01:10:32 PM
I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

Considering all the other forms of murder, corruption, and in-character asshattery we get up to, I doubt there's a serious inability of the playerbase to "detach from earth's morality." The change isn't about pandering to those who can't, it's about putting a stop to an issue that was sucking up a disproportionate amount of staff attention and energy.

The reason staff end up putting this much time into it is that, in the end, the playerbase seems unable to deal with rape in a Zalanthan manner. If accusing a person of rape didn't equate to social murder, this ban, or the issue of having to consent for rape accusations, would end up being not necessary at all.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Kalai on December 27, 2013, 01:13:14 PM
I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

Considering all the other forms of murder, corruption, and in-character asshattery we get up to, I doubt there's a serious inability of the playerbase to "detach from earth's morality." The change isn't about pandering to those who can't, it's about putting a stop to an issue that was sucking up a disproportionate amount of staff attention and energy.

The reason staff end up putting this much time into it is that, in the end, the playerbase seems unable to deal with rape in a Zalanthan manner. If accusing a person of rape didn't equate to social murder, this ban, or the issue of having to consent for rape accusations, would end up being not necessary at all.

All right, I can get behind being upset about treated in a heavily gendered / sexual stigma associated / non-Zalanthan manner being bad. Just ... sometimes the rhetoric skirts to a really unfortunate side of RL perspective, and that's OOCly upsetting.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 27, 2013, 01:23:08 PM
I guess the staff can change the game as they see fit, and expect to see resulting changes in the playerbase (*cough* especially in the age and maturity level of its players *cough*). If that's what they want to do, they obviously can do it.

I'm paranoid, though, and wonder if staff have been getting some kind of external pressure to modify this game. For example, is some player out there threatening to sue the game staff over something that happened IG?

----

Another thought on this topic. I've been partly involved in "rape plotlines" before. The most notable example was when one of my PCs was falsely accused of accusing someone of rape. The accusation stemmed from things my PC had said after a sexual encounter. From that experience, I learned how to do better, how not to say things that suggest that I am accusing someone of rape, when it wasn't meant. From that experience, I learned more about sexuality in the real world than I will ever be able to learn IN the real world. I grew as a person from it, basically, even IF at the time I was being a real baby about it.

The real world prohibits discussions and experiments in sexuality so strictly that people in the real world are becoming more and more infantile about sex. Now, that censorship has spread into my game -- my damned computer game -- and one of the last precious ways I had to explore sexuality in a safe environment is now being restricted by censorship.

With these rules, I would have been unable to have that experience. This is a damn shame, because I am really thankful for those experiences I had. I am glad I had them when I did, and I pity the entire playerbase for now losing the opportunity to learn about it, to explore those grey zones.

---

Maybe, in the future, this playerbase will change. But, that would require the world to change. They will have to have entered the game with, as a whole, more maturity than we do now.

However, players of MUDs aren't getting older or more mature. I think it's more likely the opposite, that our playerbase's average age is getting younger. That makes the likelihood of these rules ever being reversed VERY low indeed.

This makes me feel better, because I now feel like these rules are the inevitable consequence of a trend in roleplaying. However, I feel like it's pretty lame that the portion of us who can handle these topics are not allowed to play them out because of an overall trend in the playerbase that I admit exists. I would be much happier if there was a way we can restrict the roleplay of these actions to players who have proven their ability to handle it.

I will be the first to suggest that we make rape roleplay karma-required.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 27, 2013, 01:28:19 PM
I guess the staff can change the game as they see fit, and expect to see resulting changes in the playerbase (*cough* especially in the age and maturity level of its players *cough*). If that's what they want to do, they obviously can do it.

I'm paranoid, though, and wonder if staff have been getting some kind of external pressure to modify this game. For example, is some player out there threatening to sue the game staff over something that happened IG?

----

Another thought on this topic. I've been partly involved in "rape plotlines" before. The most notable example was when one of my PCs was falsely accused of accusing someone of rape. The accusation stemmed from things my PC had said after a sexual encounter. From that experience, I learned how to do better, how not to say things that suggest that I am accusing someone of rape, when it wasn't meant. From that experience, I learned more about sexuality in the real world than I will ever be able to learn IN the real world. I grew as a person from it, basically, even IF at the time I was being a real baby about it.

The real world prohibits discussions and experiments in sexuality so strictly that people in the real world are becoming more and more infantile about sex. Now, that censorship has spread into my game -- my damned computer game -- and one of the last precious ways I had to explore sexuality in a safe environment is now being restricted by censorship.

With these rules, I would have been unable to have that experience. This is a damn shame, because I am really thankful for those experiences I had. I am glad I had them when I did, and I pity the entire playerbase for now losing the opportunity to learn about it, to explore those grey zones.

---

Maybe, in the future, this playerbase will change. But, that would require the world to change. They will have to have entered the game with, as a whole, more maturity than we do now.

However, players of MUDs aren't getting older or more mature. I think it's more likely the opposite, that our playerbase's average age is getting younger. That makes the likelihood of these rules ever being reversed VERY low indeed.

This makes me feel better, because I now feel like these rules are the inevitable consequence of a trend in roleplaying. However, I feel like it's pretty lame that the portion of us who can handle these topics are not allowed to play them out because of an overall trend in the playerbase that I admit exists. I would be much happier if there was a way we can restrict the roleplay of these actions to players who have proven their ability to handle it.

I will be the first to suggest that we make rape roleplay karma-required.

Fuck, I have to have karma to roleplay a certain way now? Well shit, I guess it's a good thing you're not on staff making decisions like that.

Guys, let the damn staff get their thoughts coherently in order amongst the Collective so they can present clearcut things for us. Stop ragging on them.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Narf on December 27, 2013, 01:31:53 PM

I will be the first to suggest that we make rape roleplay karma-required.

Interesting idea. How would you propose enforcing this sort of restriction? Keep in mind players don't get to know each other's karma levels. Say I wanted to falsely accuse a rival of rape, how would this play out with a karma restriction when I didn't know if they had karma or not and couldn't obtain that information in any way?

New policies have to be implementable, and it doesn't matter how good your policy would be if it worked, if it can't possibly be made to work.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 27, 2013, 01:56:16 PM
thanks for the reply, evilcabbage. If anything, your reply makes me feel better about my suggestion.

Narf: I'm suggesting it, but I admit I haven't gone through and thought out the details, because I am not that invested in whether or not it happens.

I open it to those in this thread who have stated they want to have the freedom to roleplay these things out, to think of a workable system using karma to allow mature sexual RP. If nobody has posted a suggested system by the time I get back from my three-hour Hobbit #2 watching holiday experience, then I'll see if I can think of something.

Toodles until then.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Mood on December 27, 2013, 02:53:03 PM
I will be the first to suggest that we make rape roleplay karma-required.

exploding_head.gif
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Kaineus on December 27, 2013, 03:19:31 PM
Here's my belated 2 cents on this:

I am not surprised by this change. About two years ago, I played a half-elf dude who decided to get skeezy on a human chick. At one point, he grabbed said chick's arm in a scene, and let go of her arm in the very next emote. Even so, the other character reported it or some such, and I got a message from the imms titled "Rape Plotlines On Armageddon." It included this detailed list of events (an Imm had to grep logs for this apparently) and included the help doc on consent with the paragraph about Rape in bold. It was literally the longest, scariest message I have gotten from the imms, and ended with the statement, "Please be cognizant of this and be sure to ask for consent if you move forward with this.  Otherwise, your account will be banned per policy.  The event in question in the log is borderline as it is, but as you are a relatively newer player, you'll be given the benefit of the doubt for this for now."

Given that [1] an arm grab could constitute the start of a rape plotline in the eyes of the imms and [2] that it apparently created so much work for the Imms, that was the first and last time I even verged on pursuing a plotline like this.

I really don't see this announcement as much of a change in policy; I just think the imms are establishing more of a hard-line over a grey area that was creating a lot of player complaints and work for them. I am hoping that this change has the intended effect rather than generating even more interventions like the one described above.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 27, 2013, 03:36:04 PM
Here's my belated 2 cents on this:

I am not surprised by this change. About two years ago, I played a half-elf dude who decided to get skeezy on a human chick. At one point, he grabbed said chick's arm in a scene, and let go of her arm in the very next emote. Even so, the other character reported it or some such, and I got a message from the imms titled "Rape Plotlines On Armageddon." It included this detailed list of events (an Imm had to grep logs for this apparently) and included the help doc on consent with the paragraph about Rape in bold. It was literally the longest, scariest message I have gotten from the imms, and ended with the statement, "Please be cognizant of this and be sure to ask for consent if you move forward with this.  Otherwise, your account will be banned per policy.  The event in question in the log is borderline as it is, but as you are a relatively newer player, you'll be given the benefit of the doubt for this for now."

Given that [1] an arm grab could constitute the start of a rape plotline in the eyes of the imms and [2] that it apparently created so much work for the Imms, that was the first and last time I even verged on pursuing a plotline like this.

I really don't see this announcement as much of a change in policy; I just think the imms are establishing more of a hard-line over a grey area that was creating a lot of player complaints and work for them. I am hoping that this change has the intended effect rather than generating even more interventions like the one described above.


This sounds fucking absurd.

Maybe you're not giving the full story, but as it is, that gives me little to no in faith in the staff. If something as simple as that can be considered borderline rape scene then all of the posts people have been making fun of asking "what the definition of rape" seems incredibly justified.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Narf on December 27, 2013, 03:40:41 PM

I really don't see this announcement as much of a change in policy; I just think the imms are establishing more of a hard-line over a grey area that was creating a lot of player complaints and work for them. I am hoping that this change has the intended effect rather than generating even more interventions like the one described above.


I can see where staff is coming from on this. One issue that they're going to face though, is that a new policy on this has a good chance of, instead of eliminating the grey area, just moving it to a new set of parameters.

I'd predict that the listed policy would actually increase Imm workload.

Of course that's neither here nor there because it's currently undergoing revision.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Timetwister on December 27, 2013, 03:46:35 PM
If you think this will stop characters (players) from doing it I think that is misguided. The war on drugs has proven that you can't ban something and expect everybody to play by the rules. Rape is still going to happen and get talked about.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 27, 2013, 03:52:32 PM
The war on drugs isn't being waged on fifty or so people that are constantly being monitored in a virtual world.  :-[
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yam on December 27, 2013, 04:00:12 PM
This has kinda ferreted out the creepier portion of the playerbase.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 27, 2013, 04:04:58 PM
This has kinda ferreted out the creepier portion of the playerbase.

I dunno, I just figure most people are like me and very anti-authoritarian, more so than a bunch of rape-happy neckbeards.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Patuk on December 27, 2013, 04:05:15 PM
Zalanthan rape is drugs?

That's it. I'm going to kill a person.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 27, 2013, 04:05:46 PM
I think the real question on everyone's mind is this, staff:

If you apartment-gank someone, can you then molest their corpse? Is this rape?

I'm pretty sure this is the unspoken question on these boards, right? Anyone..?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 27, 2013, 04:06:32 PM
I believe necrophilia was queried about on page 2, yes.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 27, 2013, 04:07:42 PM
My real question has a lot to do with my signature.

I know LC has been wanting to ask, so I will ask for him. (Just kidding, LC you are a cool dude.)

Can my ox consent and would they ideally most likely be up for it?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 27, 2013, 04:08:29 PM
If I rape a gith, are they people? Or do I need to take him on a date first, ply him with wine?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 27, 2013, 04:10:21 PM
If I rape a gith, are they people? Or do I need to take him on a date first, ply him with wine?

Gith r peepul 2.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: HavokBlue on December 27, 2013, 04:18:28 PM
Captain, thread moderation spotted off the starboard bow!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Scarecrow on December 27, 2013, 04:51:05 PM
Jesus guys...you're still talking about this? Let it go. I'm sick of this topic, I really am.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: HavokBlue on December 27, 2013, 04:56:05 PM
Then don't read the thread?

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 27, 2013, 05:02:53 PM
Jesus guys...you're still talking about this? Let it go. I'm sick of this topic, I really am.

Nobody is forcing you to be here.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Narf on December 27, 2013, 05:16:45 PM
Jesus guys...you're still talking about this? Let it go. I'm sick of this topic, I really am.

Nobody is forcing you to be here.

I actually am. I'm behind him right now with tweezers and a pair of pliers...




... He hates it when I bang those two things together. Creates an awful racket.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ghostymudy on December 27, 2013, 05:54:22 PM
Code: [Select]
Remember, Remember,
The 23rd of December,
The end of your anal rape plot.

I see no reason,
the end of rape and arse squeezin',
should ever, be, forgot.

Code: [Select]
Here lies Armageddon rape plotlines, lest we forget.
1991-2013.
Jimmies were rustled, Drama was created,
and a good portion of people on the GDB said things that made them look VERY creepy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygr5AHufBN4


Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: HavokBlue on December 27, 2013, 06:01:53 PM
Everyone who disagrees with rape being censored is creepy and everyone who PKs is a sadistic murderer IRL and everyone who plays an elf burglarizes homes and everyone who plays a breed has severe social issues!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: thewolfen3 on December 27, 2013, 06:05:07 PM
happy birthday
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: boog on December 27, 2013, 06:12:37 PM
Everyone who disagrees with rape being censored is creepy and everyone who PKs is a sadistic murderer IRL and everyone who plays an elf burglarizes homes and everyone who plays a breed has severe social issues!


Amen.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Rathustra on December 27, 2013, 06:22:05 PM
Please refrain from posting your opinions on particular posters because of their stance on this subject. It is not conducive to the discussion at hand.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 27, 2013, 08:17:27 PM
This has kinda ferreted out the creepier portion of the playerbase.

Or, perhaps, it has ferreted out the same people who'd defend the KKK's right to public assembly. And no, I'm not talking about the racists.

Armageddon has always been about enjoying RP with other people in a gritty, mostly uncensored world. This move is a move away from that, much as a government crackdown on a peaceful protest is a move against freedom of speech/assembly.


I am not completely insensitive. And that is why I agree with the FTB and/or Consent rules when it comes to issues like these. But I am also all for a harsh world, where mature content exists, and isn't a ban-worthy offense between consenting players.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 27, 2013, 08:41:49 PM
This has kinda ferreted out the creepier portion of the playerbase.

*sigh*

Maybe it's time I took another extended break from this game. This whole thread was just depressing.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 27, 2013, 08:46:06 PM
Don't leave! I've just recently been thinking of coming back.

Although, it was sad to come back and find this announcement and subsequent thread. I don't like seeing my great, wonderful arm changing to become more restrictive and unrealistic when it comes to RP.



I think this thread could use some input from 7deadlyvenoms, synthesis, and LoD. They all still active?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Jengal on December 27, 2013, 09:13:09 PM
This has kinda ferreted out the creepier portion of the playerbase.

Or, perhaps, it has ferreted out the same people who'd defend the KKK's right to public assembly. And no, I'm not talking about the racists.

who defendin the kkk
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 27, 2013, 09:19:05 PM
You're right. I can't take a break from the game unless RL forces me to. Nothing in here makes me want to play the game more, though.

I'm sure as fuck done with the GDB though.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 27, 2013, 09:26:03 PM
This has kinda ferreted out the creepier portion of the playerbase.

Or, perhaps, it has ferreted out the same people who'd defend the KKK's right to public assembly. And no, I'm not talking about the racists.

who defendin the kkk

Anthony P. Griffin(an african-american attourney), Me, the ACLU, and you, if you're smart enough to care about the first amendment.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Mood on December 27, 2013, 09:30:22 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/730j5C5.gif)

imms should ban rape more often imo. a+ thread, would read again.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 27, 2013, 09:43:57 PM
I don't like all this profanity - I prefer a child friendly environment.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: spicemustflow on December 27, 2013, 09:51:29 PM
It has also ferreted out sanctimonious assholes.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 27, 2013, 09:53:29 PM
Well, the thread was kept open on the condition that we kept it civil. And it no longer is in that place.

Locking this thread.  We will be posting revised content in the next couple of days regarding this policy.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Morgenes on December 29, 2013, 11:12:51 PM
Re-opening this again for discussion of the revision. (See 'help rape (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rape)' and 'help consent (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent)')

Note that at this point (apart from typos and answering questions) we have firmed up our position on this situation and this is the way it will be.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 29, 2013, 11:27:50 PM
I very much appreciate the clarification. I have but one or two questions.

Who or what is incapable of consent? Well, obviously the unconscious (fell off the shield wall, drank too much, over-wayyed, other mysterious forms) or the incapacitated (poison or otherwise paralyzed). Also, no abusing positions of power without consent. But say, in the case of a very low wisdom score? What if it's a mount, or even a corpse? Also, I'd ask about the limitations placed on mindbenders, but I don't know anything about them (yet, anyway). I'm sorry if I read the new rules wrong, but I think it would be nice if these were explained.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Morgenes on December 29, 2013, 11:33:29 PM
I very much appreciate the clarification. I have but one or two questions.

Who or what is incapable of consent? Well, obviously the unconscious (fell off the shield wall, drank too much, over-wayyed, other mysterious forms) or the incapacitated (poison or otherwise paralyzed). Also, no abusing positions of power without consent. But say, in the case of a very low wisdom score? What if it's a mount, or even a corpse? Also, I'd ask about the limitations placed on mindbenders, but I don't know anything about them (yet, anyway). I'm sorry if I read the new rules wrong, but I think it would be nice if these were explained.

Mounts (and any other sentient creature in the game) are NPCs and as such you may not rape them.

In the case of necrophilia it is no more rape than having sex with a sock or a pillow.  There is no longer a victim.

Mindbenders are an eight karma class and are expected to adhere to the rules expressed in 'help consent' and 'help rape'
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Yam on December 29, 2013, 11:51:34 PM
I very much appreciate the clarification. I have but one or two questions.

Who or what is incapable of consent? Well, obviously the unconscious (fell off the shield wall, drank too much, over-wayyed, other mysterious forms) or the incapacitated (poison or otherwise paralyzed). Also, no abusing positions of power without consent. But say, in the case of a very low wisdom score? What if it's a mount, or even a corpse? Also, I'd ask about the limitations placed on mindbenders, but I don't know anything about them (yet, anyway). I'm sorry if I read the new rules wrong, but I think it would be nice if these were explained.

Mounts (and any other sentient creature in the game) are NPCs and as such you may not rape them. =

So.... consensual mount sex is still okay?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Morgenes on December 30, 2013, 12:00:10 AM
Yes, if you can get the mount to ooc consent (through staff intervention), it is ok.  But I wouldn't expect you to ever get that.

Also, while humor is appreciated (assuming that was a joke), I'd rather not have to sift through it on this subject.  Please only post if you have a serious question on the subject, or would like to comment on the new policy.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 30, 2013, 12:02:33 AM
Yes, if you can get the mount to ooc consent (through staff intervention), it is ok.  But I wouldn't expect you to ever get that.
wish all Hey, I wanna sex Steve my inix. He's giving me a sultry eye and it looks consensual. Can staff have him ooc his consent?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 12:03:48 AM
I'm presuming that sex with PCs who are, what, 16 or under is allowed? Is the age of (in-game) consent for Armageddon the youngest character age possible?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Morgenes on December 30, 2013, 12:05:17 AM
I'm presuming that sex with PCs who are, what, 16 or under is allowed? Is the age of (in-game) consent for Armageddon the youngest character age possible?

All PCs are considered adult, therefore age of consent is not an issue with PCs.

And before it is asked, if you have a question about an NPC's age and consent, submit a request about it.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 30, 2013, 12:06:21 AM
I like this better than the originally set out guidelines, even if I'm still far from in favor. It seems rather peculiar that the rules are now basically, "You can rape another character, as long as your character has power over them in some way other than purely physically, and you have OOC consent from both parties (which was always the case.)" I do like that these possibilities (coercion and the like) were left open, of course, I just don't see the essential difference between the two cases that led to one being banned and the other being allowed.

Still, I do appreciate that the concerns we voiced were clearly taken into consideration. So thank you for that.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: QuillDipper on December 30, 2013, 12:08:23 AM
I think that the system laid out now should suit everyone, people for and against it, suitably. It covers a lot of concerns while still keeping the main issue presented.

10/10 would ban again
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 30, 2013, 12:09:30 AM
Yes, if you can get the mount to ooc consent (through staff intervention), it is ok.  But I wouldn't expect you to ever get that.
I can be pretty persuasive.

Why was it decided you could talk about raping somebody, but you couldn't threaten to rape somebody directly? And is it not cool to say, "The las' thing you're gonna remember is my [genitals] going straight through your [flipping] head." That is skullfucking, and thusly, the person would likely be dead beforehand - I hope.
 
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Morgenes on December 30, 2013, 12:12:11 AM
Yes, if you can get the mount to ooc consent (through staff intervention), it is ok.  But I wouldn't expect you to ever get that.
I can be pretty persuasive.

Why was it decided you could talk about raping somebody, but you couldn't threaten to rape somebody directly? And is it not cool to say, "The las' thing you're gonna remember is my [genitals] going straight through your [flipping] head." That is skullfucking, and thusly, the person would likely be dead beforehand - I hope.

You can talk about it if you did it, and by our definition and rules, you must have done it to an vNPC.  Threatening someone with rape (per our definition laid out in the help file) is not allowed as you can never carry it out.

Saying you are going to do it to their corpse, is fine.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 30, 2013, 12:12:41 AM
I like this better than the originally set out guidelines, even if I'm still far from in favor. It seems rather peculiar that the rules are now basically, "You can rape another character, as long as your character has power over them in some way other than purely physically, and you have OOC consent from both parties (which was always the case.)" I do like that these possibilities (coercion and the like) were left open, of course, I just don't see the essential difference between the two cases that led to one being banned and the other being allowed.

I imagine that exception was made to allow for Allanaki concubinage to stay, though I guess there are other reasons too.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Narf on December 30, 2013, 12:24:47 AM
I like this better than the originally set out guidelines, even if I'm still far from in favor. It seems rather peculiar that the rules are now basically, "You can rape another character, as long as your character has power over them in some way other than purely physically, and you have OOC consent from both parties (which was always the case.)" I do like that these possibilities (coercion and the like) were left open, of course, I just don't see the essential difference between the two cases that led to one being banned and the other being allowed.

I imagine that exception was made to allow for Allanaki concubinage to stay, though I guess there are other reasons too.

Yeah, 95% of prostitution would be impossible without some degree of of gray area coercion (is the threat of starvation if you don't bang this person coercion? Is the chance that my pimp will smack me around if I try to work elsewhere coercion?)

I mean you could have only prostitutes with great relationships with their pimps, who don't really need to prostitute themselves out but chose to do it anyways... but they'd be kinda boring, and eventually after the 57th one, immersion shattering.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ale six on December 30, 2013, 12:39:38 AM
I like this better than the originally set out guidelines, even if I'm still far from in favor. It seems rather peculiar that the rules are now basically, "You can rape another character, as long as your character has power over them in some way other than purely physically, and you have OOC consent from both parties (which was always the case.)" I do like that these possibilities (coercion and the like) were left open, of course, I just don't see the essential difference between the two cases that led to one being banned and the other being allowed.

I imagine that exception was made to allow for Allanaki concubinage to stay, though I guess there are other reasons too.

Concubines are in a whole different class of relationship that's generally very consensual. A noble wouldn't be forcing themself on their concubine - the concubine is probably going to be willing and eager in most cases.

A better example might be a lecherous templar. "Well, cute little thief, the fine for your crimes is normally 500 coin, but there might be other alternatives..." at which point it seems you'd want to ask for consent immediately afterward. Ditto a Sarge who's willing to forgive the tressy-tressed Runner's rule breaking if she.... or the merchant who'll sell you that awesome uber axe if you just... or even the breed hunter who caught you secret-magicking in the sands and is gonna tell the authorities unless you...

All in all, I think the changes are clear, and will be fine. Besides the "no false accusations of rape" rule, I don't think much will change at all.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 30, 2013, 01:11:09 AM
Overall, I feel much better about how it's presented. However, I do agree that it seems like a silly distinction. You can still rape through coercion/abuse of power, but not through threats of violence? So I can threaten someone with releasing their dirty secrets to the templarate(which will get them killed), but can't just threaten death myself.

Speaking of which, does being armed while someone else is unarmed constitute a "power imbalance" as per the aforementioned rules? Not trying to be funny. Just pointing out a possible interpretation of the rules that could potentially go against the spirit of said rule. What about being an experienced warrior and knowing someone else can't defend themselves? Is that a power imbalance that would fall under this rule, or only social power balances? Does one commoner who has managed to start his own business and employs a different commoner then create a power imbalance between them, even though they're the same caste?

I am getting the feeling that the primary issue here is that false accusations of rape caused PC deaths because players overreacted to the false accusations in a lethal manner, which wouldn't really be the zalanthan way. If that is the primary driver behind these changes, why change the entire system? Why not just make the rule: "You cannot falsely accuse someone of rape." ???
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 01:25:43 AM
Armed sexual coercion is basically using physical force to rape and is thus, not allowed.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 30, 2013, 01:31:30 AM
As you point out there are many possible interpretations here, and if you search for them I'm sure you can keep coming up with new situations.

At the end of it all the base takeaway is that you cannot play out rape plotlines in Armageddon. Sex that is coerced through power being exerted over another must be consensual. It cannot be classed as rape and someone cannot be accused of raping another.

If you have questions about a situation that arises when in game feel free to wish up to ask for staff input.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Narf on December 30, 2013, 01:35:56 AM
... why change the entire system? Why not just make the rule: "You cannot falsely accuse someone of rape." ???

I got the impression from reading all the help files in Morgene's links that 'changing the entire system' consisted of exactly two actual changes.

No rape accusations.

No physical force (direct or indirect) to initiate sex.

I mean there was a litttttle more than that, but not much. The overwhelming amount of added verbage was clarification rather than creation of new policy.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 01:37:04 AM
The recent (that is, IRL) debate of what consent is is probably the reason you're going to get a lot of questions on what you guys mean by "consent". From what I see, it's just "yes" from a conscious person who isn't being ACTIVELY physically threatened, even if they are drunk/poor/on the low end of the power scale/being coerced. Could you guys maybe think of a different word for consent, or maybe just give us YOUR definition of consent for the purposes of the rules?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 30, 2013, 01:40:28 AM
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 01:41:20 AM
I mean like, IC consent to sex.

My IRL definition of consent is an enthusiastic, sober yes (or some other representation of such) without something being held over their head if they are not interested in the sex.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 30, 2013, 01:45:20 AM
As you point out there are many possible interpretations here, and if you search for them I'm sure you can keep coming up with new situations.

At the end of it all the base takeaway is that you cannot play out rape plotlines in Armageddon. Sex that is coerced through power being exerted over another must be consensual. It cannot be classed as rape and someone cannot be accused of raping another.

If you have questions about a situation that arises when in game feel free to wish up to ask for staff input.

What Adhira is saying is at the end of the day the person being coerced can -still- say no. "I'll kill you unless you..." is probably a coercion extreme that wouldn't be accepted, but, "I'll forgive you running out the gates as a runner if you..." is probably more acceptable.

Holding a weapon over somebody... is like giving them the choice of do or die. That's rape. Holding a job or position or item of importance or less jail time isn't rape.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on December 30, 2013, 01:48:47 AM
Consent, as per our rules, is an OOC concept. It doesn't matter what type of RP is being consented to. If it falls within the area of needing consent then it needs to be asked via OOC and replied to via OOC. In general it is better to be specific about what is being consented to, rather than just 'OOC do you consent'.  Instead it should follow the lines of 'OOC do you consent to roleplayed torture' or 'OOC do you consent to roleplay of a sexual nature'. 

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 01:54:00 AM
Sex that is coerced through power being exerted over another must be consensual.
Is your reference to the consensuality right here referring to IC consent or OOC consent? That's what I'm meaning. I completely understand the OOC consent rules.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 01:57:25 AM
Like are you guys defining rape as "hold you down and have sex with you while you're kicking and resisting" or is raping someone via giving them drugs that make them horny against their will or getting them drunk or otherwise having them have sex with you without physical force or what I'm a bit confused here
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 30, 2013, 02:01:10 AM

At the end of it all the base takeaway is that you cannot play out rape plotlines in Armageddon. Sex that is coerced through power being exerted over another must be consensual. It cannot be classed as rape and someone cannot be accused of raping another.


That seems to me to be a contradictory set of statements, however. If you're exerting power over another person to get consent for sex, that is rape. A person who gets a dagger held to their throat and gets told to have sex or die is consenting through coercion in essentially the same way a person who agrees to sex because they don't want to piss off Lord Templar Fancypants/the scary person they mated up with, in my opinion, or at least the only differences look to be rather arbitrary to base rules off of.

Again, I'm glad that staff saw fit to keep coercion and power abuses in the game, as I feel they're good components for displaying how corrupt the world is. I just still don't see the essential differences that make one sort of rape okay by the rules and another not.


Holding a weapon over somebody... is like giving them the choice of do or die. That's rape. Holding a job or position or item of importance or less jail time isn't rape.


So by that definition, a shadowy figure approaches in the alleys and says, "Give me all your 'sids, or we're doing the naughty right here." That seems about as rape-y as it gets, but since the threat of death has been ruled out, it's just 'coercion?'
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 30, 2013, 02:23:20 AM
If someone fails a pickpocket attempt, is it ok to look around and ask "Who grabbed my ass? Was it you? Did you grab my ass? I mean, it's ok if you did.", or do you need to get OOC consent first?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 02:28:35 AM
Please don't be a cheeky fuck until my question is answered then I don't care.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 30, 2013, 02:52:11 AM
Please don't be a cheeky fuck until my question is answered then I don't care.

If you're talking to me, it's a serious concern of mine, even if it is a quote from "Night at the Roxbury", I mean misinterpreting "You feel hands in your cloak, but are unable to determine the culprit" and turning to accuse someone of touching you, likely as a joke with no malicious intent. Some could view this as being accused of unwanted contact...
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Lizzie on December 30, 2013, 07:30:25 AM
Thanks so much to Adhira, Morgenes, et al for listening to our "devil's advocate" rants and taking the issues as seriously as we intended for them to convey!

The result - I for one am very happy with, since my primary issue was the whole "you can't discuss that your character was raped even by a VNPC" which would have left out most half-elven roleplay/discussion of their character backgrounds. Here's the change for those who don't want to link:

Quote
Your character can be a rapist, or a product of rape. However, as per the rules outlined above, you can never rape a PC or NPC character. You may do so to VNPCs, as well as have thoughts of raping others, but you may not act on it as outlined in the definition of rape given above.

You may speak of rape, or being raped, but it can never lead to a PC or NPC being accused of that rape or being raped by anyone. You can assume that if someone is talking about being raped or raping someone, that it was with a VNPC.

So - my character can be a victim of virtual rape, by a VNPC, and it can be part of her backstory. "No Lady Templar, I'm not really a rinthi. You caught me on Hathor's coming out because I was dragged in and raped. Someone in there took pity on me and dragged me off the road until I could heal, then let me go. That's why I have only the clothes on my back and a waterskin to my name."

The templar's player knows that it had to have been a virtual rape, that it didn't involve any players, and so he doesn't need to dig too deeply into the investigation. I know that I shouldn't attempt to turn it into a serious investigation, because the whole thing happened off-camera, but that I -can- use this type of RP to explain an incident in my character's virtual life.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: valeria on December 30, 2013, 07:57:44 AM
I'm much more comfortable with these clarifications.  Thanks for the quick consideration and update on this!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Inks on December 30, 2013, 08:13:55 AM
This pretty much solved the problems I had with this. Vnpcs you are going to get it!
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoltan on December 30, 2013, 09:22:19 AM
I've been lurking, but just want to chime in that I'm pleased with this change and the clarifications made. Like Metekillot, my definition of consent IRL is probably more precise than what is mainstream (sadly), which gave me a lot of concerns about this new ruling. I think the helpfile is sufficient in its explanation, though, and a lot of this gray area stuff can be taken care of by good reporting to staff, timely wishes, and immediate, up-front OOCs when necessary.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FantasyWriter on December 30, 2013, 10:01:09 AM
If the character says, "No," or "Stop" ICly, pursuing it further is rape. You cannot continue regardless of OOC consent.
If the character feels pressured but never refuses the advances, it is coercion, not force. You may ask for consent and continue.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Jengal on December 30, 2013, 10:03:06 AM
How often do all you guys get into situations where you almost rape people IG like jeez
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: A Large Bag on December 30, 2013, 10:14:59 AM
I am perfectly satisfied with the clarification/adjustment to this change as it stands now. No problems here. Thank you staff.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 30, 2013, 10:20:22 AM
Just dropping in to give my support of the new guidelines.

While I don't like the idea of having to censor anything in the game, our playerbase IS growing. Which is a good thing. We aren't the same core group of 50 vets and a newbie or two coming along every now and then that would adapt or leave.

It looks like we get a lot of new players on a fairly regular basis these days, and I like to think of this as just a growing pain.

In a lot of cases we have newbs teaching newbs out there. That wasn't the case ten years ago. It is the case now. We have newbs trying to do rape roleplay plotlines with other newbs. People who don't "understand" or "get" Armageddon yet.

That of course results in people submitting a ton of player complaints about adult situations in game they just weren't ready for. They aren't seasoned enough in Armageddon yet to separate the reality from the virtual reality.

Ten years ago, when we were a relatively small core of veteran players, this problem didn't exist.

It does exist now.

But, isn't it a PRETTY GOOD thought to think that it only exists because we are GETTING BIGGER as a playerbase?

I like having people to play with. Even if it's nubs.

We needs them boots.  :)

Anyways, the new rules allow me to continue to play truly evil villains to the same extent I would have in the past, more or less, and I give my support.

Thanks to the staff for being open minded enough to have a second look at this and work with the playerbase.


Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 30, 2013, 11:04:51 AM
After reading through the new revisions, I also agree that they are well suited to the goals of the original change as well as addressing the community's concerns about backstories. I think they fit well with the theme.

Others here are asking about the "how" of the consent process, and I just wanted to say as I read the rules, I didn't have any such questions. In my mind, consent is consent. If the character says "yes," and the player oocly says "yes," then the nature of the sex -- if there's holding down, or even drugs or what have you -- doesn't really matter. It was no longer rape when the two parties were willing to go into it.

As long as both sides can OOCly ask at any time to stop the scene, that consent is no longer given, then this system feels very safe. Maybe it isn't foolproof, but we already discussed that -- the goal of the rule changes was to remove some workload and reduce hurt feelings, and this will do that as well as any rule change can without stifling the roleplay of those who wish to pursue these plotlines. 10/10.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Synthesis on December 30, 2013, 01:10:55 PM
I mean like, IC consent to sex.

My IRL definition of consent is an enthusiastic, sober yes (or some other representation of such) without something being held over their head if they are not interested in the sex.

Hope you're never getting married, then.

*ba-dum tsh*
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 30, 2013, 02:10:44 PM
"Consent?"

"No, I've got a headache...long day of work tomorrow...just wanna sleep..."
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: bcw81 on December 30, 2013, 02:13:08 PM
And we've already got people walking around cities naked because they can't be hit with the rape-bomb anymore...
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 30, 2013, 02:25:08 PM
And we've already got people walking around cities naked because they can't be hit with the rape-bomb anymore...
(http://www.gq.com/images/entertainment/2012/01/archer-excerpt/archer-628.jpg)

A solution to this, m'boy? We kill them and defile their corpses in whatever twisted way we desire. They wanna tease us, they'll be gettin' what's comin' to 'em.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoan on December 30, 2013, 02:27:34 PM
Everything you post, I read in Archer's dry tone.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 30, 2013, 02:51:15 PM

At the end of it all the base takeaway is that you cannot play out rape plotlines in Armageddon. Sex that is coerced through power being exerted over another must be consensual. It cannot be classed as rape and someone cannot be accused of raping another.


That seems to me to be a contradictory set of statements, however. If you're exerting power over another person to get consent for sex, that is rape. A person who gets a dagger held to their throat and gets told to have sex or die is consenting through coercion in essentially the same way a person who agrees to sex because they don't want to piss off Lord Templar Fancypants/the scary person they mated up with, in my opinion, or at least the only differences look to be rather arbitrary to base rules off of.

Again, I'm glad that staff saw fit to keep coercion and power abuses in the game, as I feel they're good components for displaying how corrupt the world is. I just still don't see the essential differences that make one sort of rape okay by the rules and another not.


Holding a weapon over somebody... is like giving them the choice of do or die. That's rape. Holding a job or position or item of importance or less jail time isn't rape.


So by that definition, a shadowy figure approaches in the alleys and says, "Give me all your 'sids, or we're doing the naughty right here." That seems about as rape-y as it gets, but since the threat of death has been ruled out, it's just 'coercion?'


You cannot use rape as a threat.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 30, 2013, 03:10:46 PM
You can think it, then you can enact it on their corpses. It says so in the r0lz.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ShaLeah on December 30, 2013, 03:21:40 PM
And we've already got people walking around cities naked because they can't be hit with the rape-bomb anymore...
(http://www.gq.com/images/entertainment/2012/01/archer-excerpt/archer-628.jpg)

A solution to this, m'boy? We kill them and defile their corpses in whatever twisted way we desire. They wanna tease us, they'll be gettin' what's comin' to 'em.

There you go. If you think someone is oocly doing things because ICly they can't be raped you can IC kill them and have sex with a cushion like Morgenes said. Dead bodies not counting and all that.

It's disappointing to think already people are blaming things on this new rule. What does that say for the roleplayer in question?


Player complaint is what I'd suggest. You better be damned sure about that accusation though.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Narf on December 30, 2013, 03:24:45 PM

There you go. If you think someone is oocly doing things because ICly they can't be raped you can IC kill them and have sex with a cushion like Morgenes said. Dead bodies not counting and all that.

It's disappointing to think already people are blaming things on this new rule. What does that say for the roleplayer in question?


Player complaint is what I'd suggest. You better be damned sure about that accusation though.

I am like 90% sure he was joking.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Synthesis on December 30, 2013, 03:38:09 PM
I'm not sure allowing post-assault necrophilia is consistent with the spirit of the rule, if the intent is to avoid psychic trauma to IRL survivors of sexual assault.  While the target of the assault may no longer be present, there may be other witnesses, word may get out, plotlines may ensue, etc. etc., all of which have just as much potential (I suppose) to trigger the sort of response the rule is intended to prevent.

And having everyone in the room consent isn't a complete solution, since I'd say that most people in stealth mode aren't fond of revealing their presence by communicating OOC.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 30, 2013, 03:42:27 PM
You can hint at the possibility of the universally accepted fact rape is common place in Zalanthas, even in a PC to PC situation, you just can't say, "Look, hand over your coins, it is rape time Honey."

Examples:

This is ok:

"Look'ere Darlin, ya' got ya' a nice supple look about ya'. Ya' also got ya' some nice coins in that pouch on yer' hip. I propose we go tha' coins route. Whatta' ya' say?"

This is acceptable because you never threatened them with rape. For all they know you meant they look mighty supple in terms of, "You sure look easy to cut with my knife." It is up to the victim to play that however they want so long as you as the aggressor never mentions rape or tries to physically force them sexually.

Now, are some people possibly going to submit complaints about that? Yes. But those are the sorts of people who really aren't thick skinned enough for Armageddon anyways, and the staff will deal with them.

Now, on an OOC level, we all know the overtone that was being presented there. But, no one was threatened with rape, however the victim can still see, "Wow, this guy is evil, he means business, he is as rotten as they come."

This is not ok:

"Look'ere Darlin, ya' got ya' a nice supple look about ya'. I'm gonna' rape ya' if ya' don' give me them coins. Whatta' ya' say?"

For obvious reasons, not acceptable.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 30, 2013, 03:43:14 PM
I'm not sure allowing post-assault necrophilia is consistent with the spirit of the rule, if the intent is to avoid psychic trauma to IRL survivors of sexual assault. 

This is not the intent.

This was never taken into consideration when making a determination about this rule.

The ONLY consideration was staff workload.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: TheWanderer on December 30, 2013, 03:52:30 PM
I'm not sure allowing post-assault necrophilia is consistent with the spirit of the rule, if the intent is to avoid psychic trauma to IRL survivors of sexual assault.  

This is not the intent.

This was never taken into consideration when making a determination about this rule.

The ONLY consideration was staff workload.



^/+1/yes/totes/readthethreadagainifudon'tbelieve/sexwitdeadbodiesisokay/#whyamiusinga#

EDIT: Oh, and as for the stealth thing, it was to my knowledge that you automatically consent if you're hiding in the room. Is this no longer true? Even so, why not just go read a book or something until they're done?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: ShaLeah on December 30, 2013, 04:04:53 PM

There you go. If you think someone is oocly doing things because ICly they can't be raped you can IC kill them and have sex with a cushion like Morgenes said. Dead bodies not counting and all that.

It's disappointing to think already people are blaming things on this new rule. What does that say for the roleplayer in question?


Player complaint is what I'd suggest. You better be damned sure about that accusation though.

I am like 90% sure he was joking.

I'm sure he was. :)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Synthesis on December 30, 2013, 04:28:39 PM
I'm not sure allowing post-assault necrophilia is consistent with the spirit of the rule, if the intent is to avoid psychic trauma to IRL survivors of sexual assault. 

This is not the intent.

This was never taken into consideration when making a determination about this rule.

The ONLY consideration was staff workload.



For the last several years we had a consent rule around this issue.  What we found is that this didn't help. It didn't stop situations arising in game that ended up dragging in a lot of people who were unhappy to be part of said storyline. It didn't help make a safe situation for players at all times, with regard to this topic. It DID result in staff having to handle, on a fairly regular basis, complaints and other issues based on these kinds of storylines.

Modern sensibilities and a sensitive topic make for a hard to contain storyline.  Rape in our real world is a heinous crime. It's vile and traumatic. It can be traumatic for many people to consider being faced with anything regarding this issue in our game.  Rape and sexual assault in the Zalanthan landscape, where assassins can be licensed and murder is a day to day occurence, is likely something quite different.  Yet it can be hard for our playerbase to put aside their own reaction to this topic and treat a storyline involving this situation similarly to a storyline where Amos got his apartment robbed.  We do not feel that this is something that we should be asking people to do.

The whole area is hard for staff to manage.  We do not wish to manage this.  This new policy has arisen from our experience in dealing with this in a consent based system over the last few years.

We do appreciate that there may be some grey areas, and some mis-steps that happen.  On the whole we don't predict that this will be something widespread, or that we will have to step in to deal with in any manner.  What we are asking is that you do not pursue rape plotlines in game.

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.

We understand that some of these things have been acceptable in the past. We ask that you work with us in removing these storylines from our game. 

Relevant parts bolded.  I admit that "IRL survivors of sexual assault" was an irrelevant limit.

To paraphrase Adhira's thoughts:  post-assault necrophilia still has the potential to draw in a lot of people who are unhappy to be part of that storyline, it still has the potential to make players feel unsafe, it still has the potential to trigger the kind of response in players that is viscerally different than being robbed, etc.

Anyway, I suppose being pedantic is unnecessary, since it's amenable to empiric validation.  Allow post-assault necrophilia for now, and if it results in undesirable levels of staff workload (secondary to player psychic dissonance/trauma/whatever) a la rape, then it can be banned later.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: slvrmoontiger on December 30, 2013, 05:06:08 PM
Re-opening this again for discussion of the revision. (See 'help rape (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rape)' and 'help consent (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent)')

Note that at this point (apart from typos and answering questions) we have firmed up our position on this situation and this is the way it will be.

Morgenes,

First I want to thank you and and the rest of the staff that took the time during the holiday season to put together so more definitive stances and definitions on rape and consent in such a short period of time. I know it couldn't have been easy to do.

The question I still have is according to the new Zalanthian definition of rape, I wanted to make sure I was clear in my understanding. The definition states it is a form of sexual assault, usually sexual intercourse. Further on you give a definition of what sexual intercourse is. That definition goes into describing acts such as oral sex that usually lead up to sexual intercourse. So just to clarify are these act considered rape, or not? Are acts of any sexual nature unwanted by any party considered part of rape? If so where exactly does the line get drawn? Can you possibly post some examples in the definition to make it absolutely clear?

I ask this just so everyone continues to be on the same page. I also believe setting this stuff up now and defining completely right now will stop a lot of unnecessary complaints.

Again thank you and the rest of the staff for working on this and addressing this so quickly.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 30, 2013, 05:09:15 PM
I can't imagine how that could be made any more clear.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Twilight on December 30, 2013, 05:14:06 PM
Part of the helpfile for rape notes:

Quote
Most half-elves are the result of rape

I think this has been party line for awhile now, but in thinking about this, unless there is some other factor involved, math doesn't really support this.  I think I have read staff responses a few years ago that said something to the extent of folks with 1/8 mixed blood are considered half-elves, beyond that is when they might be better represented by human or elf.  That means at least the great-grandchildren of one half elf.  Even if the original 1/2 1/2 half elf was a product of rape, if their children when on to normally breed, you'd have 1 rape half elf for a minimum of 2 non-rape half elves.

Is there some undocumented notion that the half elf angst leads to fewer breeding opportunities?  Or some undocumented infertility issue?  Or an undocumented social more that folks having sex with a half elf (or a half elf having sex) are more likely to use mul mix?

Or is it just some idea that was generated a long time ago without fully thinking through the consequences?  I would suggest with the change to the rape guidelines, the notion that most half elves are the product of rape might be relooked at a little more logically.  It would make sense that most half elf lines started with a rape, but in a steady state it also makes sense that most half elves would eventually be the product of interbreeding of half elves with human, elf or half-elf, rather than rape.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 30, 2013, 05:19:21 PM
Well, if you want to get all technical about it....

"My grandfather elf raped my human grandmother, that is where my dad came from, and I came from my dad, so, I'm only here because of rape."

I know that isn't what the original help file meant, but the original help file for half-elves in regards to rape was written a LONG time ago.

I think we can all assume that the original game makers who wrote the original half-elf documentation considered half-elves to be someone with a full human parent, and a full elf parent.

The whole 1/8 thing came along A LOT later.

Docs should probably be updated though, I agree with you there.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on December 30, 2013, 06:11:39 PM
Most half-elves have the same prejudices against their -own- kind that others have against them.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Morgenes on December 30, 2013, 07:31:53 PM
Re-opening this again for discussion of the revision. (See 'help rape (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rape)' and 'help consent (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent)')

Note that at this point (apart from typos and answering questions) we have firmed up our position on this situation and this is the way it will be.

Morgenes,

First I want to thank you and and the rest of the staff that took the time during the holiday season to put together so more definitive stances and definitions on rape and consent in such a short period of time. I know it couldn't have been easy to do.

The question I still have is according to the new Zalanthian definition of rape, I wanted to make sure I was clear in my understanding. The definition states it is a form of sexual assault, usually sexual intercourse. Further on you give a definition of what sexual intercourse is. That definition goes into describing acts such as oral sex that usually lead up to sexual intercourse. So just to clarify are these act considered rape, or not? Are acts of any sexual nature unwanted by any party considered part of rape? If so where exactly does the line get drawn? Can you possibly post some examples in the definition to make it absolutely clear?

I ask this just so everyone continues to be on the same page. I also believe setting this stuff up now and defining completely right now will stop a lot of unnecessary complaints.

Again thank you and the rest of the staff for working on this and addressing this so quickly.

Quote from: help rape
Sexual intercourse, or coitus or copulation, is chiefly the insertion and thrusting of a male's penis, usually when erect, into a female's vagina for the purposes of sexual pleasure or reproduction; also known as vaginal intercourse or vaginal sex. Other forms of penetrative sexual intercourse include penetration of the anus by the penis (anal sex), penetration of the mouth by the penis or oral penetration of the vulva or vagina (oral sex), sexual penetration by the fingers (fingering), and sexual penetration by use of a strap-on dildo. Non-penetrative sex acts (such as non-penetrative forms of cunnilingus or mutual masturbation) have been termed outercourse, but are additionally among the sexual acts contributing to human bonding and considered sexual intercourse.

That gives very explicit examples, and states pretty clearly that all those things are considered sexual intercourse.  Anything in that definition of sexual intercourse that is done by physical force on someone that is not consenting (or unable to consent) IC would be considered rape and is not allowed.  Any other acts that might be considered 'sexual assault' such as inappropriate touching (grabbing asses, touching thighs, grabbing breasts, kissing, etc..) is not considered rape, even if done by physical force.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 30, 2013, 07:45:22 PM
Re-opening this again for discussion of the revision. (See 'help rape (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rape)' and 'help consent (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent)')

Note that at this point (apart from typos and answering questions) we have firmed up our position on this situation and this is the way it will be.

Morgenes,

First I want to thank you and and the rest of the staff that took the time during the holiday season to put together so more definitive stances and definitions on rape and consent in such a short period of time. I know it couldn't have been easy to do.

The question I still have is according to the new Zalanthian definition of rape, I wanted to make sure I was clear in my understanding. The definition states it is a form of sexual assault, usually sexual intercourse. Further on you give a definition of what sexual intercourse is. That definition goes into describing acts such as oral sex that usually lead up to sexual intercourse. So just to clarify are these act considered rape, or not? Are acts of any sexual nature unwanted by any party considered part of rape? If so where exactly does the line get drawn? Can you possibly post some examples in the definition to make it absolutely clear?

I ask this just so everyone continues to be on the same page. I also believe setting this stuff up now and defining completely right now will stop a lot of unnecessary complaints.

Again thank you and the rest of the staff for working on this and addressing this so quickly.

Quote from: help rape
Sexual intercourse, or coitus or copulation, is chiefly the insertion and thrusting of a male's penis, usually when erect, into a female's vagina for the purposes of sexual pleasure or reproduction; also known as vaginal intercourse or vaginal sex. Other forms of penetrative sexual intercourse include penetration of the anus by the penis (anal sex), penetration of the mouth by the penis or oral penetration of the vulva or vagina (oral sex), sexual penetration by the fingers (fingering), and sexual penetration by use of a strap-on dildo. Non-penetrative sex acts (such as non-penetrative forms of cunnilingus or mutual masturbation) have been termed outercourse, but are additionally among the sexual acts contributing to human bonding and considered sexual intercourse.

That gives very explicit examples, and states pretty clearly that all those things are considered sexual intercourse.  Anything in that definition of sexual intercourse that is done by physical force on someone that is not consenting (or unable to consent) IC would be considered rape and is not allowed.  Any other acts that might be considered 'sexual assault' such as inappropriate touching (grabbing asses, touching thighs, grabbing breasts, kissing, etc..) is not considered rape, even if done by physical force.

So basically, as long as you get OOC consent for a sexual scene, and they stop resisting(but are still conscious) by the time you get to the intercourse, you're golden.  8)

Just kidding. But seriously Morgenes, could you add that last line of your quote to the helpfile on rape for clarity? I think it might stop staff from receiving unnecessary complaints about IC ass grabbery. The quote I'm referring to is this one:

Any other acts that might be considered 'sexual assault' such as inappropriate touching (grabbing asses, touching thighs, grabbing breasts, kissing, etc..) is not considered rape, even if done by physical force.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 30, 2013, 07:55:12 PM
Though inappropriate touching and such would also be covered by the power-emoting rule still, I would think. So even if those emotes are okay, you're still obligated to phrase them as attempts.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Morgenes on December 30, 2013, 08:09:11 PM
Added:

Quote
Any other acts that might be considered 'sexual assault' such as inappropriate touching (grabbing asses, touching thighs, grabbing breasts, kissing, etc..) is not considered rape, even if done by physical force. Note that you should watch to avoid power-emoting, and phrase such actions as attempts.

To 'help rape'.

Thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 08:32:57 PM
The definition of sexual consent here (IN-CHARACTER) is pretty muddy.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 30, 2013, 08:46:07 PM
The definition of sexual consent here (IN-CHARACTER) is pretty muddy.

For which I am thankful. Why is it that important to you? The requirement of both IC and OOC consent means that both sides are sure this is consensual. If there is any doubt that there is a lack of IC consent, then there's a problem and it's violating the rules, but telling people how to roleplay in detail is going too far. The OOC consent trumps the IC consent, and both are required. It's fine by me as is.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 08:52:11 PM
I'm a stickler for definitive consent IRL so that's why I care
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 30, 2013, 09:03:01 PM
I'm a stickler for definitive consent IRL so that's why I care

That's your preference. You are required to be a stickler via ooc. I assure you a lot of folks here don't want any such requirement ICly, just the generalities as stated currently.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 10:47:06 PM
If some dude drugs you into saying yes to sex that apparently isn't rape since you said yes technically
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FantasyWriter on December 30, 2013, 10:52:10 PM
Is why some schools offer consent forms now.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 30, 2013, 11:14:11 PM
This thread, basically (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1lc6KASWg)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 31, 2013, 12:10:26 AM
I'm a stickler for definitive consent IRL so that's why I care

I find people like that to be mood killers IRL. If we are moving things along nicely, and someone stopped to say, "Just for the legal record, are you consenting to sexual relations with me?", I think that I might second-guess my previous decision to consent.

If two people are making out, feeling each other up, and begin undressing each other with no resistance, I take that as implied consent. And implied consent is not only sufficient, but much more exciting irl. Just my opinion.


Also, I'd like to point out that there are circumstances where RP wouldn't be condusive to definitive consent. For instance, RPing a scene in which a timid virgin girl has sex for the first time. Of course she's going to be hesitant. Of course she's going to be scared. That doesn't mean that both players aren't enjoying playing out the scene, or that it shouldn't happen. The character may start out that scene by rebuking advances, and only later be convinced to proceed. The character starting out saying no, then changing to a yes isn't important. The important part here is that the player OOCly gives consent. IC, you roleplay it out and see what happens.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 31, 2013, 12:20:12 AM
that is literally not at all what i was saying but i ceased taking you seriously when you compared banning rape to the holocaust
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 31, 2013, 12:21:31 AM
that is literally not at all what i was saying but i ceased taking you seriously when you compared banning rape to the holocaust

Uh, I think you've got the wrong person. Though, that comparison made me lol.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 31, 2013, 12:23:27 AM
Also I'm thinking more of a situation like this:

Amos gives Amosa drugs and sexes her up something nasty. Apparently, this is not rape, because Amosa said yes, even though she was compromised. The definition of rape in the rules seems to be violently violating someone as they say no(?). But anyway, this is apparently not rape so the plot is going along swimmingly it was coercion or something(??????). Malik hears about this and says "dude that's totally not cool that's fucked up that's. . .rape. Malik is force-stored. Plot continues.

I don't thinks this is exactly what is going to happen. I am really just pushing for someone to DEFINE what sort of rape is allowed, because from what I understand, sexual coercion is allowed with this rule-set (which I personally believe to just be a form of rape). If someone has sex with you because something bad happens if they don't, that's rape. It seems this rule only bans violent acts of forcing sex upon a refusing person. Am I understanding it correctly?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 31, 2013, 12:26:05 AM
   First they came for the Communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.

    Then they came for the Socialists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

The original form of this saying included the Jews, if I'm not mistaken. This is what I was referring to.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 31, 2013, 12:32:56 AM
Also I'm thinking more of a situation like this:

Amos gives Amosa drugs and sexes her up something nasty. Apparently, this is not rape, because Amosa said yes, even though she was compromised. The definition of rape in the rules seems to be violently violating someone as they say no(?). But anyway, this is apparently not rape so the plot is going along swimmingly it was coercion or something(??????). Malik hears about this and says "dude that's totally not cool that's fucked up that's. . .rape. Malik is force-stored. Plot continues.

I don't thinks this is exactly what is going to happen. I am really just pushing for someone to DEFINE what sort of rape is allowed, because from what I understand, sexual coercion is allowed with this rule-set (which I personally believe to just be a form of rape). If someone has sex with you because something bad happens if they don't, that's rape. It seems this rule only bans violent acts of forcing sex upon a refusing person. Am I understanding it correctly?

Yes. That, and it bans falsely accusing someone of rape. Which includes accusing someone of rape when what they did falls in the categories previously discussed. So, in zalanthas, getting drugged up and being taken advantage of isn't rape. On Zalanthas, it's considered making a regretful decision while under the influence, which is what it should be anyhow. People still make their own decisions, even while under the influence of drugs/alcohol. The RL trend of being able to say "YES" while drunk, then go back and say "Hmm, I wouldn't have done that if I was sober, so it's rape." is ludicrous. How is someone else supposed to know at what point you've crossed a line from being able to give lucid consent, to only consenting because you're drunk/drugged into lowered inhibitions?

I was drunk once, and had sex with a really fat chick. She was cute for a fat girl, but still, I likely wouldn't have slept with her if I were sober. Was I raped? No. I made a poor, regretful decision while under the influence. And I live with that, I don't try to ruin someone else's life over it.


    First they came for the Communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.

    Then they came for the Socialists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

The original form of this saying included the Jews, if I'm not mistaken. This is what I was referring to.

Nope. That is the original form. Anything else you've seen is a derivative of that, of which there are many. I could have tailored this to the arm community, but I instead chose to use the original form of "They came for me", knowing that the majority of people in the arm community could make the logical jump and apply it appropriately.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: MeTekillot on December 31, 2013, 12:34:45 AM
regretful decision while under the influence, which is what it should be anyhow.
If this is what you think, then this conversation really has nowhere to go because we are basing our arguments on a subject on two completely different sets of beliefs and I'm going to have to withdraw.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 31, 2013, 12:36:09 AM
regretful decision while under the influence, which is what it should be anyhow.
If this is what you think, then this conversation really has nowhere to go because we are basing our arguments on a subject on two completely different sets of beliefs and I'm going to have to withdraw.

Fair enough, because under your belief system, I've been raped, and I assure you I haven't been.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Fujikoma on December 31, 2013, 12:53:34 AM
Yeah, IC consent is a bit muddy. You may find yourself with an IC no on intercourse, but maybe a yes on something else, which leads to IC consent being granted for the other thing in due time.  I don't think that counts as rape.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 31, 2013, 01:26:59 AM
This thread, basically (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1lc6KASWg)

Edited: I had a long post here, then I watched this video. This video is nothing like what I was saying, it's a moronic rapist (aka a PUA). I went on a crazy string of edits of this post, trying to articulate several things: how PUAs don't exist in Zalanthas as they do IRL, how the value system of PUAs is grounded in a set of beliefs that shouldn't and wouldn't survive in Zalanthas. I tried to tell you how to look into this further and understand how that is the case. I tried to explain in one of the edits how the rules rebuke everything you stated as "rape" in your post, isn't. But, alas, I don't think there's really any way I can, in one post, get you from thinking one way to another on this issue. I tried to edit this post, again and again, and I was never satisfied with what I had. There's no way that I'll be satisfied with this post, really. Sorry, Met. You're right, we all have to withdraw from this discussion. It's unsatisfying but it's just the right thing to do.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Malifaxis on December 31, 2013, 03:02:16 AM


    First they came for the kanks,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a kank.

    Then they came for the halflings,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a halfling.

    Then they came for the tan Muark,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a tan Muark.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left who could use the say command.


FTFY.

I don't play anymore, but hey, I've seen a lot of really cool characters fucking wrecked by rape plotlines.  Alternately, I have seen some people in game that I knew had been raped and had dealt with it in a completely realistic manner that made the characters even more goddamn awesome than ever.

IMHO (which does not matter one iota) rape should be left in the players hands, but if someone OOCs: ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT YOU GODDAMN TWAT I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS AND I WILL EMAIL THIS FUCKING LOG TO YOUR GODDAMN MOTHER IF YOU DON'T STOP, well then you should bloody well listen.  Or even if they ooc:  "No."  You should listen then, too.

But the ball (no pun intended) has been called, and I know for a fact how in, out (goddamn puns, I am seriously not trying here) and sideways the staff have dissected this issue, and this is the best solution they could come (FUCKING WHAT THE HELL) up with to make the roleplay more fluid (oh I give up... however viscous that fluid must be *eyeroll*.)

Anyway, I'm drunk, there's my 2 am 2 cents.

Peace.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Aruven on December 31, 2013, 09:22:48 AM


    First they came for the kanks,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a kank.

    Then they came for the halflings,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a halfling.

    Then they came for the tan Muark,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a tan Muark.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left who could use the say command.


FTFY.

I don't play anymore, but hey, I've seen a lot of really cool characters fucking wrecked by rape plotlines.  Alternately, I have seen some people in game that I knew had been raped and had dealt with it in a completely realistic manner that made the characters even more goddamn awesome than ever.

IMHO (which does not matter one iota) rape should be left in the players hands, but if someone OOCs: ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT YOU GODDAMN TWAT I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS AND I WILL EMAIL THIS FUCKING LOG TO YOUR GODDAMN MOTHER IF YOU DON'T STOP, well then you should bloody well listen.  Or even if they ooc:  "No."  You should listen then, too.

But the ball (no pun intended) has been called, and I know for a fact how in, out (goddamn puns, I am seriously not trying here) and sideways the staff have dissected this issue, and this is the best solution they could come (FUCKING WHAT THE HELL) up with to make the roleplay more fluid (oh I give up... however viscous that fluid must be *eyeroll*.)

Anyway, I'm drunk, there's my 2 am 2 cents.

Peace.

(http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Why_f7172b_1640173.jpg)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoltan on December 31, 2013, 10:44:17 AM
Also I'm thinking more of a situation like this:

Amos gives Amosa drugs and sexes her up something nasty. Apparently, this is not rape, because Amosa said yes, even though she was compromised. The definition of rape in the rules seems to be violently violating someone as they say no(?). But anyway, this is apparently not rape so the plot is going along swimmingly it was coercion or something(??????). Malik hears about this and says "dude that's totally not cool that's fucked up that's. . .rape. Malik is force-stored. Plot continues.

I don't thinks this is exactly what is going to happen. I am really just pushing for someone to DEFINE what sort of rape is allowed, because from what I understand, sexual coercion is allowed with this rule-set (which I personally believe to just be a form of rape). If someone has sex with you because something bad happens if they don't, that's rape. It seems this rule only bans violent acts of forcing sex upon a refusing person. Am I understanding it correctly?

Yes. That, and it bans falsely accusing someone of rape. Which includes accusing someone of rape when what they did falls in the categories previously discussed. So, in zalanthas, getting drugged up and being taken advantage of isn't rape. On Zalanthas, it's considered making a regretful decision while under the influence, which is what it should be anyhow. People still make their own decisions, even while under the influence of drugs/alcohol. The RL trend of being able to say "YES" while drunk, then go back and say "Hmm, I wouldn't have done that if I was sober, so it's rape." is ludicrous. How is someone else supposed to know at what point you've crossed a line from being able to give lucid consent, to only consenting because you're drunk/drugged into lowered inhibitions?

I was drunk once, and had sex with a really fat chick. She was cute for a fat girl, but still, I likely wouldn't have slept with her if I were sober. Was I raped? No. I made a poor, regretful decision while under the influence. And I live with that, I don't try to ruin someone else's life over it.


Jesus Christ. Game rules are one thing, and as I mentioned earlier, I find them to be suitable for day-to-day purposes of playing the game. I've said all I care to on that, but this attitude needs to be addressed. If not for Heade's own understanding, then for that of other members of the community who may just be getting their first whiff of some crucial social issues due to this thread.

This is why some people are encouraging, IRL, the concept of sober, enthusiastic consent. It's possible to eliminate a lot of gray area by having respect for yourself, and respect and empathy for others. The gray area is where actual rapists thrive, as it enables them to muddy the waters and silence the victim. There is of course nuance to everything in the real world, but too often arguments like "it was merely a regrettable act" are used to soften and excuse actual acts of sexual violence and exploitation. These attitudes cause real harm by enabling actual offenders and discouraging their victims from reporting them.

Despite Heade's distastefully-worded anecdote, this isn't a personal attack. At an earlier age, his logic would have seemed sound to me. In recent years I delved deeper into investigating these issues and learned about the harm I've done by just standing by. Whether you agree or disagree with me, I recommend doing some reading on "rape culture" and thinking about how it applies to your own life and interactions.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 31, 2013, 10:59:20 AM
I think we are getting dangerously close to the, "This is no longer about Zalanthas and more about accusing each other of things IRL and questioning each other's RL morals.", line.

Let's not do that. It doesn't belong in this thread, even if it is well intended advice.

This is about Zalanthas.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 31, 2013, 11:02:53 AM
Also I'm thinking more of a situation like this:

Amos gives Amosa drugs and sexes her up something nasty. Apparently, this is not rape, because Amosa said yes, even though she was compromised. The definition of rape in the rules seems to be violently violating someone as they say no(?). But anyway, this is apparently not rape so the plot is going along swimmingly it was coercion or something(??????). Malik hears about this and says "dude that's totally not cool that's fucked up that's. . .rape. Malik is force-stored. Plot continues.

I don't thinks this is exactly what is going to happen. I am really just pushing for someone to DEFINE what sort of rape is allowed, because from what I understand, sexual coercion is allowed with this rule-set (which I personally believe to just be a form of rape). If someone has sex with you because something bad happens if they don't, that's rape. It seems this rule only bans violent acts of forcing sex upon a refusing person. Am I understanding it correctly?

Yes. That, and it bans falsely accusing someone of rape. Which includes accusing someone of rape when what they did falls in the categories previously discussed. So, in zalanthas, getting drugged up and being taken advantage of isn't rape. On Zalanthas, it's considered making a regretful decision while under the influence, which is what it should be anyhow. People still make their own decisions, even while under the influence of drugs/alcohol. The RL trend of being able to say "YES" while drunk, then go back and say "Hmm, I wouldn't have done that if I was sober, so it's rape." is ludicrous. How is someone else supposed to know at what point you've crossed a line from being able to give lucid consent, to only consenting because you're drunk/drugged into lowered inhibitions?

I was drunk once, and had sex with a really fat chick. She was cute for a fat girl, but still, I likely wouldn't have slept with her if I were sober. Was I raped? No. I made a poor, regretful decision while under the influence. And I live with that, I don't try to ruin someone else's life over it.


Jesus Christ. Game rules are one thing, and as I mentioned earlier, I find them to be suitable for day-to-day purposes of playing the game. I've said all I care to on that, but this attitude needs to be addressed. If not for Heade's own understanding, then for that of other members of the community who may just be getting their first whiff of some crucial social issues due to this thread.

This is why some people are encouraging, IRL, the concept of sober, enthusiastic consent. It's possible to eliminate a lot of gray area by having respect for yourself, and respect and empathy for others. The gray area is where actual rapists thrive, as it enables them to muddy the waters and silence the victim. There is of course nuance to everything in the real world, but too often arguments like "it was merely a regrettable act" are used to soften and excuse actual acts of sexual violence and exploitation. These attitudes cause real harm by enabling actual offenders and discouraging their victims from reporting them.

Despite Heade's distastefully-worded anecdote, this isn't a personal attack. At an earlier age, his logic would have seemed sound to me. In recent years I delved deeper into investigating these issues and learned about the harm I've done by just standing by. Whether you agree or disagree with me, I recommend doing some reading on "rape culture" and thinking about how it applies to your own life and interactions.

Thank you for posting that. You said what I might have liked to, far less shrilly than I would have.

I am uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that insists that any sensitivity to people's feelings is pandering to the oversensitive. I think its perfectly possible to play in a way that doesn't bring hugs and unicorns and still has a cognizance of real people behind the PCs they play. Our characters may have broken moral compasses, but we shouldn't. And if that means I've broken the game and you (editorial you, not Zoltan) are  don't want to play with me - good.

Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Barzalene on December 31, 2013, 11:04:08 AM
Told you I'd be shrill.

OK D-man. I'll be more quiet now.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 31, 2013, 11:14:35 AM
I am uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that insists that any sensitivity to people's feelings is pandering to the oversensitive.

It isn't that the staff doesn't care about their feelings. It's that they aren't in the business of making decisions for the entire playerbase based on being sensitive to the feelings of specific groups.

They have a goal. To run the game efficiently.

This decision was about the staff's workload. Emotional sensitivity to specific groups was never taken into consideration as part of this decision, because this isn't a move to PG13, or a move to making the game more "feeling friendly (also known as PG13)".

It's not that I don't care about people's feelings.

It's just that everyone bringing up that point in this thread repeatedly is doing nothing to add to the conversation, because their point was never even considered.

All it is conducive to is making the "morally just" group feel vindicated, and the "morally judged" group angry and flamey.

So why do it?

Because people can't control themselves. *sigh*

If your point in this thread is, "We need this because of morals/feelings." You have no point.

Zalanthan morals are the only morals that matter for this discussion, and the staff's workload is the only RL issue that is being considered.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Cutthroat on December 31, 2013, 11:19:02 AM
The fact that you can simply not consent to the "Amos and Amosa experiment with drugs" sex scene should entirely eliminate the whole "consenting under the influence" concern regardless of whether players RL find such tactics repugnant, because the players themselves are not drunk or drugged while playing Arm (presumably) and can therefore decide how inhibited their characters actually are. To my knowledge, there is literally nothing in this game that will 100% put a coded effect on your PC to have sex with the first thing you see (if there is, there probably shouldn't be at this point), and any related coded effects/echoes at best suggest a raising of arousal which can still be tempered by the player's control.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Zoltan on December 31, 2013, 11:45:31 AM
The fact that you can simply not consent to the "Amos and Amosa experiment with drugs" sex scene should entirely eliminate the whole "consenting under the influence" concern regardless of whether players RL find such tactics repugnant, because the players themselves are not drunk or drugged while playing Arm (presumably) and can therefore decide how inhibited their characters actually are. To my knowledge, there is literally nothing in this game that will 100% put a coded effect on your PC to have sex with the first thing you see (if there is, there probably shouldn't be at this point), and any related coded effects/echoes at best suggest a raising of arousal which can still be tempered by the player's control.

I agree with this. I think the game rules are fine, and so are the reasons that the stuff enacted them. I just couldn't let such a harmful RL attitude stand without at least a token rebuttal. I'm done talking about it in this thread.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 31, 2013, 11:54:54 AM

Because people can't control themselves. *sigh*


I'm just saying. I called it.

(I'm one of the biggest offenders.)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Synthesis on December 31, 2013, 12:55:27 PM
I am uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that insists that any sensitivity to people's feelings is pandering to the oversensitive.

It isn't that the staff doesn't care about their feelings. It's that they aren't in the business of making decisions for the entire playerbase based on being sensitive to the feelings of specific groups.

They have a goal. To run the game efficiently.

This decision was about the staff's workload. Emotional sensitivity to specific groups was never taken into consideration as part of this decision, because this isn't a move to PG13, or a move to making the game more "feeling friendly (also known as PG13)".

It's not that I don't care about people's feelings.

It's just that everyone bringing up that point in this thread repeatedly is doing nothing to add to the conversation, because their point was never even considered.

All it is conducive to is making the "morally just" group feel vindicated, and the "morally judged" group angry and flamey.

So why do it?

Because people can't control themselves. *sigh*

If your point in this thread is, "We need this because of morals/feelings." You have no point.

Zalanthan morals are the only morals that matter for this discussion, and the staff's workload is the only RL issue that is being considered.

I already debunked this opinion, but got pagerolled.  Check Adhira's post on the first page of the thread, and you'll find that, in fact, RL feelings about such plotlines were indeed a consideration.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 31, 2013, 01:01:01 PM
Okay. We are now on day 8 of the amazing Holiday Rape Shitstorm. AKA, How Rape Raped Armers Christmas. AKA, How Rape made Sandy Claws too busy to give anybody presents this year.

Recently, Met has brought up an interesting issue, of "rape by false consent," where he is raising a real phenomenon of Western society whereby (usually women) are coerced into sex by strategies and tactics a rapist might use to make them feel obligated to have sex, where an obligation to have sex is implied or subconsciously believed by the victim. He is rightfully raising a question of a grey area in "rape," that, in the real world, real rapists abuse to rape people, but has a questionable existence in Zalanthas.

I was going to try and explain it in THIS thread why that can't happen in Zalanthas, but as I read my own post, I realized that it was really off-topic in this thread. Moreover, it is such an important topic that my one post would be drowned in the noise of accusations and other inappropriate posts that has had this thread closed -- twice. This thread is a discussion of rule changes, and in those rule changes, there are answers to every component of Metekillot's concerns -- they are not defined as rape in Zalanthas. It says so quite clearly in "help rape." However, it feels like Metekillot is asking "why" that is, and that is a different question. A different thread.

I feel that these questions merit Yet Another Spinoff Thread, discussing romance, coupling, and how it relates to the unique gender egalitarianism of Zalanthas, and why that could exclude the "rape by false consent" concept as a possibility in Zalanthas.

In preparing for this new discussion, I encourage participants to read the documentation, but also, please read this snippet, from a discussion of how Egalitarianism survives (http://earthfirstjournal.org/newswire/2013/02/07/how-hunter-gatherers-maintained-their-egalitarian-ways-three-complementary-theories/) in hunter-gatherer societies.

Quote
Theory 1: Hunter-gatherers practiced a system of “reverse dominance” that prevented anyone from assuming power over others.

The writings of anthropologists make it clear that hunter-gatherers were not passively egalitarian; they were actively so. Indeed, in the words of anthropologist Richard Lee, they were fiercely egalitarian.[2] They would not tolerate anyone’s boasting, or putting on airs, or trying to lord it over others. Their first line of defense was ridicule. If anyone–especially if some young man–attempted to act better than others or failed to show proper humility in daily life, the rest of the group, especially the elders, would make fun of that person until proper humility was shown.

So. Shall I make the new thread? Or do you guys really want to keep discussing this here, on page 17 of a thread that was supposed to be focused on discussion of a decision staff has made?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Synthesis on December 31, 2013, 01:06:23 PM
omg pagerolled again
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 31, 2013, 01:18:08 PM
Yep. Lucky coincidence.

I'm not making any new threads yet. I'm going to wait for someone to flame me first.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: 26 dollars on December 31, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
This thread keeps reminding me of http://youtu.be/b4hNaFkbZYU
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 31, 2013, 02:19:29 PM
I am uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that insists that any sensitivity to people's feelings is pandering to the oversensitive.

It isn't that the staff doesn't care about their feelings. It's that they aren't in the business of making decisions for the entire playerbase based on being sensitive to the feelings of specific groups.

They have a goal. To run the game efficiently.

This decision was about the staff's workload. Emotional sensitivity to specific groups was never taken into consideration as part of this decision, because this isn't a move to PG13, or a move to making the game more "feeling friendly (also known as PG13)".

It's not that I don't care about people's feelings.

It's just that everyone bringing up that point in this thread repeatedly is doing nothing to add to the conversation, because their point was never even considered.

All it is conducive to is making the "morally just" group feel vindicated, and the "morally judged" group angry and flamey.

So why do it?

Because people can't control themselves. *sigh*

If your point in this thread is, "We need this because of morals/feelings." You have no point.

Zalanthan morals are the only morals that matter for this discussion, and the staff's workload is the only RL issue that is being considered.

I already debunked this opinion, but got pagerolled.  Check Adhira's post on the first page of the thread, and you'll find that, in fact, RL feelings about such plotlines were indeed a consideration.

After checking the post I see where Adhira stated as a fact that people did get hurt feelings over the issue of rape. That is was a very controversial topic for some players and it was determined that some players couldn't and shouldn't have to handle being put into those situations.

But, I do not see anywhere that it was stated this decision was made or came about to protect those players.

I do see repeatedly where it was stated that staff workload was the factor that brought about this change, not the consideration of the RL feelings of others.

Now, I will agree with you that the RL feelings of a few players and their repeated requests DID contribute to the staff workload issue in question, so the only way to fix the problem would be to get rid of those players, or put in a rule to keep them from complaining further.

It was decided to put in a rule, to keep them from complaining, for the PURPOSE of decreasing the staff workload. Not for the purpose of protecting their feelings. Protecting their feelings is collateral at best and if we could have kept rape and reduced the staff workload, we would have let their feelings continue to be hurt.

It is a fine distinction, but an important distinction.

The reason it is important is because Armageddon IS NOT pushing to become a PG13 setting.

If this decision was made for any other purpose, even peripheral in sense, than decreasing staff workload, then it is a push to make the game "safer" for certain players, and more "friendly to all", which is exactly the purpose of a PG13 setting.

Since staff said repeatedly the goal was not to make the game more PG13 friendly, and that the only purpose was the decrease in staff workload, I am going to choose to believe them and assume people's feelings and a safer environment were not considered.

You can't have it both ways.

Either the only factor considered was staff workload, or moral considerations and "empathy" played a part, and that is a direct push for a PG13 environment.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Jingo on December 31, 2013, 02:35:07 PM
After having to hear about how some players were consistently harassed ic and ooc and how it generally made their experience uncomfortable, or even made them want to quit outright.

Yeah I think those are the ones we should ban.  ::)

Personally, I'll take the pg-13 rating if it means players don't need to deal with that kind of bullshit.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Synthesis on December 31, 2013, 02:36:52 PM
I am uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that insists that any sensitivity to people's feelings is pandering to the oversensitive.

It isn't that the staff doesn't care about their feelings. It's that they aren't in the business of making decisions for the entire playerbase based on being sensitive to the feelings of specific groups.

They have a goal. To run the game efficiently.

This decision was about the staff's workload. Emotional sensitivity to specific groups was never taken into consideration as part of this decision, because this isn't a move to PG13, or a move to making the game more "feeling friendly (also known as PG13)".

It's not that I don't care about people's feelings.

It's just that everyone bringing up that point in this thread repeatedly is doing nothing to add to the conversation, because their point was never even considered.

All it is conducive to is making the "morally just" group feel vindicated, and the "morally judged" group angry and flamey.

So why do it?

Because people can't control themselves. *sigh*

If your point in this thread is, "We need this because of morals/feelings." You have no point.

Zalanthan morals are the only morals that matter for this discussion, and the staff's workload is the only RL issue that is being considered.

I already debunked this opinion, but got pagerolled.  Check Adhira's post on the first page of the thread, and you'll find that, in fact, RL feelings about such plotlines were indeed a consideration.

After checking the post I see where Adhira stated as a fact that people did get hurt feelings over the issue of rape. That is was a very controversial topic for some players and it was determined that some players couldn't and shouldn't have to handle being put into those situations.

But, I do not see anywhere that it was stated this decision was made or came about to protect those players.

I do see repeatedly where it was stated that staff workload was the factor that brought about this change, not the consideration of the RL feelings of others.

Now, I will agree with you that the RL feelings of a few players and their repeated requests DID contribute to the staff workload issue in question, so the only way to fix the problem would be to get rid of those players, or put in a rule to keep them from complaining further.

It was decided to put in a rule, to keep them from complaining, for the PURPOSE of decreasing the staff workload. Not for the purpose of protecting their feelings. Protecting their feelings is collateral at best and if we could have kept rape and reduced the staff workload, we would have let their feelings continue to be hurt.

It is a fine distinction, but an important distinction.

The reason it is important is because Armageddon IS NOT pushing to become a PG13 setting.

If this decision was made for any other purpose, even peripheral in sense, than decreasing staff workload, then it is a push to make the game "safer" for certain players, and more "friendly to all", which is exactly the purpose of a PG13 setting.

Since staff said repeatedly the goal was not to make the game more PG13 friendly, and that the only purpose was the decrease in staff workload, I am going to choose to believe them and assume people's feelings and a safer environment were not considered.

You can't have it both ways.

Either the only factor considered was staff workload, or moral considerations and "empathy" played a part, and that is a direct push for a PG13 environment.

wat
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 31, 2013, 02:47:05 PM
wat

I can't make it any more clear.

The cut down version I guess is:

"We can't set the precedent that it is Armageddon staff policy to set rules in the game based on the sensibilities and moral standards of certain staff members or players."

That is exactly what the slippery slope argument is, and we don't want to feed that argument.

In fact, if this decision was made for the purpose of protecting certain players and making a "safer environment", then it doesn't just feed the slippery slope argument, it makes it right.

Nope.

This decision was made for one reason, the measurable and logical gains associated with staff workload. Not the emotional/moral/ethical desires of staff members or other players trying to enforce their own social agenda on the playerbase.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Synthesis on December 31, 2013, 02:52:09 PM
I suppose I'm more concerned with ultimate as opposed to proximal causes, when it comes to chains of events.  Anyway, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep telling yourself that it's "just" a workload problem.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on December 31, 2013, 02:57:02 PM
After having to hear about how some players were consistently harassed ic and ooc and how it generally made their experience uncomfortable, or even made them want to quit outright.

Yeah I think those are the ones we should ban.  ::)

Personally, I'll take the pg-13 rating if it means players don't need to deal with that kind of bullshit.

The rule changes as stated have absolutely no impact on what you're talking about. Why even mention it here? Why is a pg-13 rating going to help?

This thread isn't just frustrating, it's baffling. Nobody seems to want to talk about the same thing. Are we even speaking the same language?
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 31, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
I suppose I'm more concerned with ultimate as opposed to proximal causes, when it comes to chains of events.  Anyway, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep telling yourself that it's "just" a workload problem.

I will keep telling myself that, because telling myself that the staff did this to make the game more "wholesome" and "safer"  and "moral", for certain players is a pretty crappy concept to me, and not really a road I think the playerbase is prepared to go down.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Synthesis on December 31, 2013, 03:09:22 PM
I suppose I'm more concerned with ultimate as opposed to proximal causes, when it comes to chains of events.  Anyway, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep telling yourself that it's "just" a workload problem.

I will keep telling myself that, because telling myself that the staff did this to make the game more "wholesome" and "safer"  and "moral", for certain players is a pretty crappy concept to me, and not really a road I think the playerbase is prepared to go down.

We've been going down that road ever since the Tuluki Rebellion

TULUK SLAM

*high-five*
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: FreeRangeVestric on December 31, 2013, 03:10:13 PM
I suppose I'm more concerned with ultimate as opposed to proximal causes, when it comes to chains of events.  Anyway, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep telling yourself that it's "just" a workload problem.

I will keep telling myself that, because telling myself that the staff did this to make the game more "wholesome" and "safer"  and "moral", for certain players is a pretty crappy concept to me, and not really a road I think the playerbase is prepared to go down.

Here's what (I think) Synthesis was getting at:

1) Staff banned rape plotlines to decrease their workload.

2) Rape plotlines caused an increased staff workload because people would get offended by them, causing them to send in requests and complaints and the like.

3) Thus, staff banned rape plotlines with the primary cause being to stop people getting their moral sensibilities offended.

I'm also inclined to say that if it looks like a step towards a more 'wholesome' (even if we're a few thousand miles from anything like wholesome, still) setting, smells like a step towards a more 'wholsome' setting, etc...

(Dammit, I said I was done with this thread!)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on December 31, 2013, 03:12:15 PM
I suppose I'm more concerned with ultimate as opposed to proximal causes, when it comes to chains of events.  Anyway, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep telling yourself that it's "just" a workload problem.

I will keep telling myself that, because telling myself that the staff did this to make the game more "wholesome" and "safer"  and "moral", for certain players is a pretty crappy concept to me, and not really a road I think the playerbase is prepared to go down.

We've been going down that road ever since the Tuluki Rebellion

TULUK SLAM

*high-five*

I admit, you made me have the chuckles.  :D
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on December 31, 2013, 06:54:08 PM
I just couldn't let such a harmful RL attitude stand without at least a token rebuttal. I'm done talking about it in this thread.

Harmful? I don't think you understand my position. Perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough. Either way, I agree that this portion of the conversation belongs in a different thread, which you can find here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46757.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46757.0.html)
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: jstorrie on January 01, 2014, 07:07:25 PM
I will keep telling myself that, because telling myself that the staff did this to make the game more "wholesome" and "safer"  and "moral", for certain players is a pretty crappy concept to me, and not really a road I think the playerbase is prepared to go down.

The word you're looking for is "fun." They did it to make the game more "fun" for players. God forbid.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Adhira on January 01, 2014, 07:15:46 PM
I could give a shit about wholesome.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: evilcabbage on January 01, 2014, 07:21:30 PM
I could give a shit about wholesome.

You guys heard it here first.

And I sig'd that.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Drayab on January 02, 2014, 03:55:30 AM
I don't blame staff for not wanting to deal with rape. Rape is just too real. I come here to escape. Give me a bone sword, a dinosaur to ride, and a giant insect to hunt.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Heade on January 02, 2014, 09:08:46 AM
And just to put a stop to the attempted character assassinations that have been levied against me as of late, I'll finally do what I've been avoiding this entire argument. Here goes:

I have never, not once, pursued or been involved in a rape in game in all my 15 years of playing. Just because I fervently defend EVERYONE's right to RP what they want between two consenting players doesn't mean that I play a bunch of rapists. It simply means I am interested in seeing people continue to be able to pursue adult themes, whatever those may be, so long as both involved parties are interested in doing so. I am not pro-rape. I am pro-fun between consenting players.


I've avoided mentioning the bolded topic specifically because I don't believe it matters. But with people continuing to try to call me creepy because I was defending an anti-censorship position, I began to feel like it mattered to the rest of the playerbase. Now, I suppose, I've had a brief taste of what it must have been like to be Larry Flynt's attorney.

please stop. one day, if you ever develop self-awareness, you'll regret this.

When presented with the opportunity to champion an opinion that I feel is for the betterment of a community I care about, or all mankind, I will -always- carry that cross. Even if it means that the unwashed masses will demonize me for defending their rights and freedoms. I'm not in it for the recognition. I'm in it to enact positive social change, even if I don't survive the experience to enjoy the results of said change. And perhaps, for all my effort, I change nothing. At least I can say I tried, and I fought the good fight.

Of course, I'd prefer not to be demonized for defending an idea. So, to those of you willing to think and read, any help to that end would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: lordcooper on January 02, 2014, 09:18:05 AM
This is a pretendy fucking funtime game.  Dude, you ain't Martin Luther King.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Desertman on January 02, 2014, 09:20:23 AM
Haede, it isn't that you aren't right.

It's that you aren't going to win.

Let it go brother.

Edited to Add: Also, you do realize they aren't actually debating you anymore right? They are baiting you. They want you to keep going until you are banned. Just bow out before that happens.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: roughneck on January 02, 2014, 09:26:26 AM
When presented with the opportunity to champion an opinion that I feel is for the betterment of a community I care about, or all mankind, I will -always- carry that cross.


It's a heavy cross you bear. Thank you for all the sacrifices you have made to keep me unfettered by the shackles of oppression.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Harmless on January 02, 2014, 09:33:00 AM
Best holidays ever on the GDB. Dateline NBC has never had so much business.
Title: Re: Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines
Post by: Morgenes on January 02, 2014, 09:55:33 AM
I think this thread has seen it's usefulness.