Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => World Discussion => Topic started by: Barsook on October 28, 2013, 08:57:29 AM

Title: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barsook on October 28, 2013, 08:57:29 AM
It was asked:

So, I agree with Nyr, if only to help retention.

Let's face it, elves are -hard- to play. They really are. Most new players won't understand that the elves in this game are thieves and sneaky bastards. It's just true. Give them a chance to play a human, to SEE other elves played, and then they might play an elf as their next and TOTALLY fucking rock it.

Except then almost no one will ever play city elves in the south, there's just not the PC social structure to support it, if you're playing in Allanak... And there should be, someone there to show you the ropes and what it means to be a proper elf, but there won't be, because no one wants to do it.

I think it would be be cool if there was a Allanak NON-rinthi city elf clan for the non-rinthi elves.  If Tuluk has one, why can't Allanak have one?  Or is there some IC reason behind Allanak not having one?

An elven "quarter" or negiborhood where most of a city's elves lived would make sense to me.  They could be mo r e tgan a sinlge tribe.   They may be forced or choose to live together because of racism or because they prefer to have neighbors that they have more in common with (than humans).

That idea sounds better, but how would that help a PC, if it's all virtual and the need the same race interaction?

Hey, guys. Guys! There seems to be some interest in giving city elves some love here. If you're serious about it, how about an actual thread?

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 28, 2013, 10:12:45 AM
Someone mentioned something similar but I do like the idea: In terms of tribes the Jaxa Pah would have a sister tribe in the south side. The Jaxa Pah deals with all the dirt work but the southern sister tribe would deal with all legitimate business, contracts, merchant houses and the templars. Those in the know could sometimes view the two tribes as two sides of the same coin but the dealings and arrangements between the two tribes would be done in utter secrecy. If the templars would ever be able to pin anything on the legitimate business of the south side sister tribe something went horribly wrong.

After reading the documents on the fact that elves by nature trust their tribes mates somehow I feel there might be more leniency towards elven magickers within elven tribes as opposed to human tribes. Why should the human templars and the human noble Oash house be the only ones to use magickers as tools. I kinda see there being a very secretive part where they would hire elven gemmers to do work, even perhaps ungemmed elves to do work discretely. Maybe an extra gemmed elven tribe family would be added to handle that aspect of the unsavory business.

In terms of coded advantages I have no idea even giving them something like  sneak/hide is still kinda redundant and doesn't really help them much I think.  However perhaps elves being a bit more willing to hire, interact and learn to trust elven magickers would be a nice RP advantage to make up for it. I don't know, an elf can buff themselves magickally and be okay with using that to move around but how would they feel about being buffed by another elf and being able to perform a bit better?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 28, 2013, 10:36:22 AM
After reading the documents on the fact that elves by nature trust their tribes mates somehow I feel there might be more leniency towards elven magickers within elven tribes as opposed to human tribes. Why should the human templars and the human noble Oash house be the only ones to use magickers as tools. I kinda see there being a very secretive part where they would hire elven gemmers to do work, even perhaps ungemmed elves to do work discretely. Maybe an extra gemmed elven tribe family would be added to handle that aspect of the unsavory business.

I like this. I like this a lot. I'm going to dump a large post with my thoughts shortly, but I want this idea to stay in the foreground.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: ShaLeah on October 28, 2013, 10:53:41 AM
After reading the documents on the fact that elves by nature trust their tribes mates somehow I feel there might be more leniency towards elven magickers within elven tribes as opposed to human tribes. Why should the human templars and the human noble Oash house be the only ones to use magickers as tools. I kinda see there being a very secretive part where they would hire elven gemmers to do work, even perhaps ungemmed elves to do work discretely. Maybe an extra gemmed elven tribe family would be added to handle that aspect of the unsavory business.

I like this. I like this a lot. I'm going to dump a large post with my thoughts shortly, but I want this idea to stay in the foreground.


Because in Allanak the human race is the supreme race and they don't pretend to like/affiliate with sharps.  Personally I'd rather keep the longnecks in the alleys and if they're going to let 'gicks fraternize they'll be doing it in shadow, like the subspecies they are. And Highlord forbid the law finds out they're keeping magickers protected.

The laws in His City are very stringent, I don't see this happening realistically.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 28, 2013, 11:39:50 AM
There was an old elven tribe before the Jaxa called the Haruch Kemad, and the were heavily involved in magick, and now they are gone. Don't expect to see any sort of magical elven group appear ever.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 28, 2013, 11:43:32 AM
So, I did a fair bit of thinking about this in the recent Catching Up: City Elves thread, but the focus there was more on the hyperbolic bits of the documentation, and the bits that it doesn't cover so well. I'm going to take different angles here.

To recap some of the parts of the earlier discussion that are relevant, the free city elven population is meant to be similar in numbers to the free human population. In other words, a lot of the city is running on elven labour, and while elves are certainly disproportionately well represented among the criminal classes, most elf clans are providing enough benefit to the city to be worth the trouble of having them around. There are some really interesting roleplay tensions to explore here between elven sociopathy to those outside their tribe and elven pride on the one hand, and the necessities of survival as a disliked underclass on the other.

I personally think that while having a place for openly criminal elves would be pretty neat, there's a lot more RP meat in having a Southside clan which has a niche which is not openly criminal and which has to carefully manage its relationships to the powerful. I think this would also go a long way to adjust PC attitudes toward elves to make more sense: your human PC likely grew up on the same street as elves, played with them as a child, buys goods and necessities from them on occasion, drinks in bars which have elves present. They are, it goes without saying, untrustworthy and inferior to humans in every way that counts - but seriously pissing off an elf likely means pissing off a whole elven clan, and that isn't something you do lightly, especially if you lack connections.

What could a city elven clan offer PCs? Quite a lot, I think.

I think the circle of trusted tribemates would go a long way to counterbalance the human advantages of employment and mount-based mobility. Sure, Amos and Malik the independent hunters can team up, but Amos doesn't know for sure that Malik won't steal his mount, slit his waterskin and leave him to die in the desert.

What are the difficulties?

Well, any such clan would depend heavily on trade, and it can't just hire in crafter PCs when it has a lack. Some care would need to be taken over crafting the makeup of the clan so it has reasons for interaction with other PCs and pressures to attend to. The basic description of the elven mindset in the docs is hazardous to continued PC survival never mind clan survival - it would be imperative that players, including newbies, didn't favour kleptomania over keeping the powerful placated. It would pull a bunch of players away from existing clans and spread us all a little thinner. Lastly, and perhaps hardest to bridge, is how such a clan could interact politically. Vastly weaker than a great House, noble or merchant, it would have little competition on its own level to deal with - it would essentially be playing on the same scale as the Byn, which is little more than a tool to be used by the powerful. There is a real danger that any such clan would cross the bored sights of a Merchant House player determined to take offence and be exterminated.

If some way could be found round the difficulties, I think there'd be room for something pretty awesome. The adjustment in reactions it would provoke would also I think make even unclanned elves a little more interesting to play.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 28, 2013, 11:53:04 AM
Because in Allanak the human race is the supreme race and they don't pretend to like/affiliate with sharps.  Personally I'd rather keep the longnecks in the alleys and if they're going to let 'gicks fraternize they'll be doing it in shadow, like the subspecies they are.

The longnecks aren't a small number of skulking alley dwellers, they're almost half the free portion of the city. Most independent humans should be bloody careful in how they go about bad-mouthing a sharp.

Edited to add: I'm talking about working with gemmers, not ungemmed, of course. Keeping ungemmed tribemates doesn't seem smart, unless you really are a bunch of filthy alley-dwellers. But working with a gemmer? That I can see.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: boog on October 28, 2013, 11:55:35 AM
Even if it wasn't "meant" to be... that IS how it is in Allanak.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 28, 2013, 11:56:46 AM
Even if it wasn't "meant" to be... that IS how it is in Allanak.

It's how PC roleplay is currently. It's not how the city "is" virtually. PC roleplay can be changed - and I contend would be more interesting for that change.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 28, 2013, 12:07:23 PM
While I agree with you that logically the way elves are represented by PCs doesn't make a lot of sense for a functioning society, it is an attitude that staff seem to support, it is what it is and I don't think a GDB thread will change it.

I think it will be a while before the Jaxa get their revamp, so maybe we could use this thread to propose some constructive feedback that staff may possibly take into account when trying to make the clan more viable on a day to day basis and more interesting to players. Otherwise they are basically just the long-eared version of the Guild, and what player will do business with elves when there are humans available for the same thing? All those abundant elven PCs?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Eurynomos on October 28, 2013, 12:08:24 PM
Also, keep in mind that Elves make up a very small percentage of the slave labour population. They aren't exactly great slaves, or manual labor cronies.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: ShaLeah on October 28, 2013, 12:15:25 PM
Quote from: Quirk link=topic=46421.msg784256#msg784256
Most independent humans should be bloody careful in how they go about bad-mouthing a sharp.

No way. The lowliest independent human should still be able to bad mouth any sharp anywhere not Tuluk. Doesn't matter if they're half the population, fact is, they're still sub-human, still thieves and liars and worthy of scorn.

Would the humans allow that shit to happen is the question.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 28, 2013, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: Quirk link=topic=46421.msg784256#msg784256
Most independent humans should be bloody careful in how they go about bad-mouthing a sharp.

No way. The lowliest independent human should still be able to bad mouth any sharp anywhere not Tuluk. Doesn't matter if they're half the population, fact is, they're still sub-human, still thieves and liars and worthy of scorn.

Would the humans allow that shit to happen is the question.

Yeah, of course they would. Despite the crim-code, ICly Nakki templars don't care very much about petty theft, vandalism, even assault - as long as nobody important gets upset. Joe Blow the human commoner bad-mouths an elf in the Gaj and gets taken into an alley and beat stupid by a bunch of elven tribals? It's his own damn fault.

The problem is, as it always should be, who's going to back you up? The militia aren't there to protect human commoners from being stupid. They're there to protect the rich and powerful. Most of these rich and powerful are humans, but there's no mileage at all in defending some cocksure mouthy human from reprisals at the hands of a powerful local elven family.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Molten Heart on October 28, 2013, 12:27:46 PM
It can be useful to keep a few elves around to be scapegoats when things don't work out.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 28, 2013, 12:33:33 PM
While I agree with you that logically the way elves are represented by PCs doesn't make a lot of sense for a functioning society, it is an attitude that staff seem to support, it is what it is and I don't think a GDB thread will change it.

I think it will be a while before the Jaxa get their revamp, so maybe we could use this thread to propose some constructive feedback that staff may possibly take into account when trying to make the clan more viable on a day to day basis and more interesting to players. Otherwise they are basically just the long-eared version of the Guild, and what player will do business with elves when there are humans available for the same thing? All those abundant elven PCs?

Well - I think a huge part of the issues with PC elven representation is down to the lack of addressing what would ICly be the mainstream city elf in game. Elves have lost any kind of sensible place in Nak. The danger I see is that "City Elf" becomes an option marked "roll a short lived kleptomaniac" that nobody but the very bored deigns to select. Your line "what player will do business with elves when there are humans available for the same thing?" needs to be addressed if elves are to actually be a viable option. I very much think that a largely legal Southside elven clan could go a long way to change perceptions.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: catchall on October 28, 2013, 01:11:07 PM
Most of these rich and powerful are humans, but there's no mileage at all in defending some cocksure mouthy human from reprisals at the hands of a powerful local elven family.

However, you're also assuming that it makes IC sense for elf tribes to get all whipped up in a violent frenzy over rude comments (which every elf probably hears on a daily basis).  Elves are proud, but I've never seen anything to suggest that they are unusually prone to violently defending their honor against racist comments.  Independent humans also have buddies and band together in groups.  The elves don't necessarily know that the person making rude comments doesn't have backup of his own.  It's my estimate that you'd have to be talking about some pretty out-of-the-ordinary, aggressive bigotry before elves would embark on such a mission of righteous vengeance.  All the best roleplayed elves I've ever known wouldn't bat an eye at being casually called sharp/skinny/neck, even by a human business associate.  If anything, getting overly irate about it is the mark of a noob.

(As a counterpoint: I *would* expect that elves might get a taste for vengeance if you specifically insult their tribe, but I think it's completely nonsensical for an elf to gets upset over anti-elf comments or sentiment.  Elves don't trust elves either!  )
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 28, 2013, 01:33:09 PM
What we want to avoid is something like council of Allanaki mages. What we want to promote is what is already in the documentation that states some organization/individual do make use of certain elementalists from time to time. There is a difference between being friends and lovers with magickers and using their services discretely. An Allanaki Human would normally never cross that line where a mage becomes anything tools for Templar and nobles and perhaps themselves, so it would probably further disgust and enrage them to think that elves would find more chances to cross the line.

Even then, any dealing with magickers, would be done discretely as it is currently done now by the various mundanes who interact with mages. The difference being that for humans it would be more due to social taboos and outright fears but for elves dealings with magickers are kept discrete because you could potentially turn a fist fight into one with high powered guns or bring unwanted attention to yourself by the round ears. I mean if elves are putting magickers to use, and gaining a trust and a working relationship with them there are still plenty of human gemmed mages with human bosses who won't like that or will be sought after by other organizations who may hire human magickers/assassin them to deal with the elven magickers.


This is not even a 'lets give mages more interaction and things to do post' because I honestly feel human gemmed mages get plenty of interaction with all kinds of people for all kinds of reason, so no problems there. However code-wise I can't think of anything that would make me want to give up riding in addition to all the other elven disadvantages,  Rp wise though the ability to interact in a more positive way with magickers and not feel like a total twink is pretty tempting. The chance for my mundanes to experience scenes with mages where I'm not shivering in fear or about to piss my pants seems like a pretty significant perk. Again this would be at the individual character level not at the organized magickal groups level other clans evolved to before, this discrete way of interacting with magickers though would bleed into the elves tribes. They wouldn't be openly hiring them like Oash, but there would definitely be dealing with them.



Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 28, 2013, 02:20:43 PM
Most of these rich and powerful are humans, but there's no mileage at all in defending some cocksure mouthy human from reprisals at the hands of a powerful local elven family.
However, you're also assuming that it makes IC sense for elf tribes to get all whipped up in a violent frenzy over rude comments (which every elf probably hears on a daily basis).  Elves are proud, but I've never seen anything to suggest that they are unusually prone to violently defending their honor against racist comments.

Oh, absolutely. I doubt any elf's going to start sharpening her dagger on hearing "longear" or "skinny" or some other casual slur. Engineering a confrontation, though, should be a very iffy thing to do. Possibly insulting an important tribe member might also be dangerous. I'm thinking of this in terms of actual real world racism, of groups which have experienced some level of oppression despite being numerous and having strong family ties. There will be members of such communities who're insulted only from positions of absolute safety, and you don't really want to come to their attention by glassing their second cousin.

Independent humans also have buddies and band together in groups.  The elves don't necessarily know that the person making rude comments doesn't have backup of his own.

The difference is that a human without the protection of a major House likely only has a handful of associates - the elf has a very large extended family. This is a fight that it's unwise for the human to start.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 28, 2013, 03:44:35 PM
I can't help from reading this thread that most of the player-base just doesn't give a shit. We know what elves need to be enjoyable, they need a tribe. The fact that so many people are being negative towards the ideas in this thread is irritating. It's like Elven hate somehow extended to outside of the game.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on October 28, 2013, 03:57:26 PM
An easy, light fix to the low Allanaki elven population that I would love to see would be a socially accepted increase in the kind of jobs elves could have. I once stored an elf because I couldn't find another job besides grebbing that they'd keep their neck doing, and also interested me. Nyr replied to me, There's nothing in the documentation that says elves can't greb. However, the playerbase itself has limited the kind of jobs elves can have. They're left with crafting (which is narrowed further still by a cultural inability to hunt and a social inability to greb), Kurac, being what amounts to a permanent runner in the Byn who is unable to go on contracts (I can't imagine a worse fate personally), bardic/performance type of things which not everyone has the OOC creativity to do, and crime.

If someone were to go to the elves helpfile or create a jobs helpfile that kept you from seeing elves hunting in the wilderness but allowed them everything else, that would fix it in a snap.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: boog on October 28, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
I can't help from reading this thread that most of the player-base just doesn't give a shit. We know what elves need to be enjoyable, they need a tribe. The fact that so many people are being negative towards the ideas in this thread is irritating. It's like Elven hate somehow extended to outside of the game.

I love elves.

I love playing elves!

But I feel I'm not very good at them, so I don't very often.

I do not hate elves! I'm sorry if my post came across that way.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: valeria on October 28, 2013, 05:10:50 PM
I'd be all for a playable elven tribe in Allanak proper.  Why?  Because I think there are probably virtual elven tribes all over the seedier parts of Allanak, so it wouldn't be crazy to have a playable tribe, and I just can't imagine that's it's very enjoyable to play an elf without a tribe.  Still, I don't think they'd have any sort of recognition or standing, like they might in other places.

Though now I want to try playing a tribeless celf.  Just to see if it would be as hard as I think it would be.   ::)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: evilcabbage on October 28, 2013, 05:21:45 PM
I'd be all for a playable elven tribe in Allanak proper.  Why?  Because I think there are probably virtual elven tribes all over the seedier parts of Allanak, so it wouldn't be crazy to have a playable tribe, and I just can't imagine that's it's very enjoyable to play an elf without a tribe.  Still, I don't think they'd have any sort of recognition or standing, like they might in other places.

Though now I want to try playing a tribeless celf.  Just to see if it would be as hard as I think it would be.   ::)

There is a tribe of elves living in the seedier part of Allanak. They're called the Jaxa Pah.

I don't know why you think they aren't in Allanak. The Labyrinth -is- the seedy part of Allanak. That -is- where all the Allanaki city elves who are worth anything at all live, because the city proper doesn't accept their shit. They can't operate down southside because the law would keelhaul them in a heartbeat. The law doesn't go into the Labyrinth. The law is almost, dare I say, -afraid- to go into the Labyrinth.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: valeria on October 28, 2013, 05:22:39 PM
I'd be all for a playable elven tribe in Allanak proper.  Why?  Because I think there are probably virtual elven tribes all over the seedier parts of Allanak, so it wouldn't be crazy to have a playable tribe, and I just can't imagine that's it's very enjoyable to play an elf without a tribe.  Still, I don't think they'd have any sort of recognition or standing, like they might in other places.

Though now I want to try playing a tribeless celf.  Just to see if it would be as hard as I think it would be.   ::)

There is a tribe of elves living in the seedier part of Allanak. They're called the Jaxa Pah.

I don't know why you think they aren't in Allanak. The Labyrinth -is- the seedy part of Allanak. That -is- where all the Allanaki city elves who are worth anything at all live, because the city proper doesn't accept their shit. They can't operate down southside because the law would keelhaul them in a heartbeat. The law doesn't go into the Labyrinth. The law is almost, dare I say, -afraid- to go into the Labyrinth.

I beg to differ with your idea of the Labyrinth is why  :-*
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on October 28, 2013, 06:03:39 PM
I'd love for there to be an southside Allanaki elven tribe, I've been entertaining the notion of a family role call for a while now. I think that between the Akai Sjir having a very.. Different mindset from other elves, and the Jaxa Pah not only being elves but also 'rinthers, a tribe based in Allanak proper would be a good thing indeed.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 28, 2013, 06:08:08 PM
I'd be all for a playable elven tribe in Allanak proper.  Why?  Because I think there are probably virtual elven tribes all over the seedier parts of Allanak, so it wouldn't be crazy to have a playable tribe, and I just can't imagine that's it's very enjoyable to play an elf without a tribe.  Still, I don't think they'd have any sort of recognition or standing, like they might in other places.

Though now I want to try playing a tribeless celf.  Just to see if it would be as hard as I think it would be.   ::)

There is a tribe of elves living in the seedier part of Allanak. They're called the Jaxa Pah.

I don't know why you think they aren't in Allanak. The Labyrinth -is- the seedy part of Allanak. That -is- where all the Allanaki city elves who are worth anything at all live, because the city proper doesn't accept their shit. They can't operate down southside because the law would keelhaul them in a heartbeat. The law doesn't go into the Labyrinth. The law is almost, dare I say, -afraid- to go into the Labyrinth.

The Labyrinth is another one of those things that is treated different ingame from how the docs suggest it would function in an actual city ("Most of the business in Allanak takes place here etc etc")

What I would really like to see with the Jaxa document revamp are a few things.
1. It shouldn't be so obscenely hard to actually join. Wishing up and asking an NPC was as likely to get you stabbed to death as it was clanned, and under actual players, only one or two were actually clanned at any given time, meaning all the privelages of being in a clan or tribe were really only valid when your friends were online.

2. Relax the restriction against southsiders (this should be true for the Guild as well).  I know it is possible for southern elves to join the Jaxa and in the past they've even managed to acquire pseudo-leadership roles but the current situation does not promote a lot of interaction beyond the occasional southerner who wants someone killed and can't get help from the Guild.  I think it would be really cool to allow for the Jaxa to have this network of southern elves with seemingly innocent day jobs that they can call upon when needed.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 28, 2013, 06:10:54 PM
I'd be all for a playable elven tribe in Allanak proper.  Why?  Because I think there are probably virtual elven tribes all over the seedier parts of Allanak, so it wouldn't be crazy to have a playable tribe, and I just can't imagine that's it's very enjoyable to play an elf without a tribe.  Still, I don't think they'd have any sort of recognition or standing, like they might in other places.

Though now I want to try playing a tribeless celf.  Just to see if it would be as hard as I think it would be.   ::)

There is a tribe of elves living in the seedier part of Allanak. They're called the Jaxa Pah.

I don't know why you think they aren't in Allanak. The Labyrinth -is- the seedy part of Allanak. That -is- where all the Allanaki city elves who are worth anything at all live, because the city proper doesn't accept their shit. They can't operate down southside because the law would keelhaul them in a heartbeat. The law doesn't go into the Labyrinth. The law is almost, dare I say, -afraid- to go into the Labyrinth.

I disagree with this entirely. Just because 'rinthers live outside of the law doesn't mean that elves have to. Just because Elves are known to be shysters doesn't mean they have to be herded into the unlawful portion of the city. I don't agree that every City Elf worth their weight would be in 'rinth. That doesn't make much sense.

Also, the Jaxa Pah isn't open, apparently. So even if the 'rinth was the only place for tribal city elves you can't even do that there.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 28, 2013, 06:21:45 PM
Yeah... There's a big difference between "a seedy part of Allanak" and "The Labyrinth".

It's pretty much the difference between, "I'm poor :(" and "Oh hey. You have food. Give me that or I will stab you a lot."

>em grumbles about all these damn southsiders in his alleys and these damn kids wearing silk because they maxxed their stealth skills
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barsook on October 28, 2013, 06:25:13 PM
An easy, light fix to the low Allanaki elven population that I would love to see would be a socially accepted increase in the kind of jobs elves could have. I once stored an elf because I couldn't find another job besides grebbing that they'd keep their neck doing, and also interested me. Nyr replied to me, There's nothing in the documentation that says elves can't greb. However, the playerbase itself has limited the kind of jobs elves can have. They're left with crafting (which is narrowed further still by a cultural inability to hunt and a social inability to greb), Kurac, being what amounts to a permanent runner in the Byn who is unable to go on contracts (I can't imagine a worse fate personally), bardic/performance type of things which not everyone has the OOC creativity to do, and crime.
+1
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 28, 2013, 06:51:46 PM
I guess the kind of thing I'm hoping for from a Southside elven clan, the more I think about it, is kind of a hopped up version of an organised crime syndicate which makes most of its money through control over what's basically legal business. Construction tends to attract a lot of this in reality, though I think in Zalanthas that's likely to be work for the slaves.

My picture of a large Southside city elven clan: whatever the clan gig is, everyone knows they're bent as hell - if they're bidding on big contracts, the deal you strike with them isn't going to be the deal you get. If they're running some service, there's huge suspicion as to its underlying quality. But the deal you get is mostly good enough that that bit of the economy continues to function, and given the massive headache in trying to root them out and put someone else in charge, it turns out it's just easier for the templarate to work with them and occasionally make an example of one of them when they get so crooked things are threatening to spiral into dysfunction. You don't really want to cross them if you're a small player, but it's in the clan's interests to play mostly nicely with the actually powerful, who get to talk a lot of shit to and about them because they hold the whip hand.

I think if we had a clan like that, we'd answer a lot of questions along the lines of "Why are elves tolerated in the city?" And I think the difference between a tribe and a House would make for pretty interesting play along the lines I've mentioned already, and open up potential for new interactions.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BleakOne on October 28, 2013, 07:35:43 PM
I'm all for the idea of elves getting either a few tribe clans in Allanak, or a syndicate of smaller tribes who work with each other in the Southside. We need more elves in Allanak.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barsook on October 28, 2013, 07:39:12 PM
I think I know my next PC concept will be...
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Italis on October 28, 2013, 10:23:13 PM
Elves are tolerated in Allanak for the same reason rats and cockroaches are - getting rid of 'em all is just way too much effort. That's pretty much the only reason.

People don't hire elves for gainful employment because they're known to be a bunch of shiftless, thieving bastards. And elves rarely seek gainful employment themselves because stealing shit from the slow-ass roundears is way easier.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 28, 2013, 10:32:10 PM
See you all again in a few years.


Allanak: We employ 'gickers, but fuck the elves man.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 28, 2013, 10:33:33 PM
See you all again in a few years.


Allanak: We employ 'gickers, but fuck the elves man.

I feel your frustration.

But hey, you can't send elves into the Mantis Valley to instagib that raider who stole your war beetle while you were spam-salting.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 28, 2013, 10:37:32 PM
To be honest I'm not that frustrated. I don't entirely mind the only City-elf tribe being in the 'rinth. I just wish I could play in it, which will probably just require a little bit of patience.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Italis on October 28, 2013, 10:53:00 PM
Hey, nobody said elves were supposed to be easy.

'Cause they're not.

In a city as universally corrupt, oppressed and riddled with crime as Allanak, there's plenty of niches for elves to fit themselves into. They're just never going to be socially acceptable when they do it.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Kronibas on October 29, 2013, 01:22:51 AM
There was an old elven tribe before the Jaxa called the Haruch Kemad, and the were heavily involved in magick, and now they are gone. Don't expect to see any sort of magical elven group appear ever.

Sandas, too.  They may be gone but their gang colors are still, uhh, around.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 29, 2013, 01:57:28 AM
Hey, nobody said elves were supposed to be easy.

'Cause they're not.

In a city as universally corrupt, oppressed and riddled with crime as Allanak, there's plenty of niches for elves to fit themselves into. They're just never going to be socially acceptable when they do it.

It sounds like you are describing half-elves and magickers though. Elves are socially accepted by their own kind and dealing with them should be part of daily life for anyone who lives in the city. Their population is only second to humans in cities after all. I mean half-elves are not be easy to play at all, and they are generally be rejected by elves and humans alike however, they are still very fun to play and many people enjoy playing them.

I feel like it is not so much that elves aren't easy to play but rather that the disadvantages, restrictions and lack of interaction/clans make them not fun to play. In comparison at least to almost ever other available race.

Oh well, what do I know. Anyways I do have one elven concept that might be interesting to play. Maybe I'll try it someday.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: solera on October 29, 2013, 03:24:54 AM
 
Quote
getting rid of 'em all is just way too much effort.

Just cart criminals off to jail in paddy wagons. Then Necks would  either riot or cut their own throats.

Unless of course elves are entrenched in the real Nak economy.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 29, 2013, 03:33:17 AM
There was an old elven tribe before the Jaxa called the Haruch Kemad, and the were heavily involved in magick, and now they are gone. Don't expect to see any sort of magical elven group appear ever.

Sandas, too.  They may be gone but their gang colors are still, uhh, around.

If I'm not mistaken, the Sandas still exist as one of the three Jaxa families.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Kronibas on October 29, 2013, 04:42:18 AM
There was an old elven tribe before the Jaxa called the Haruch Kemad, and the were heavily involved in magick, and now they are gone. Don't expect to see any sort of magical elven group appear ever.

Sandas, too.  They may be gone but their gang colors are still, uhh, around.

If I'm not mistaken, the Sandas still exist as one of the three Jaxa families.

You're right, and it's right there in the help files, too.  I thought the Sandas were just like the down and dirty wing of the HK for a long time since they existed/worked together.  I can't remember if Dust was a HK or Sandas elf, but he was around for a long time.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Vox on October 29, 2013, 07:40:35 AM
Seeing as I played Dust I'll pipe up.. I was the only active Haruch Kemad PC for a long time and possibly the last, which is sad news because that clan was awesome, if a bit lonely.
Additionally they were super secretive so their fate will probably never be known.

As far as the general issue of elves go, I totally agree that they are a -very- difficult race to play but, 'it's hard out there for a pimp.' I wish more people would roll up elf PC's
but I wouldn't go so far as to make life any easier for them. You get a solid group of elven roleplayers working together you'll find soon enough just how crazy fun
being an elf in Allanak is and you'll actually be glad you're universally despised. It gives you SO much freedom and individuality while at the same time creating awesome
moments of constant conflict. Finding ways to annoy the nobility AND keep my head was a game I often enjoyed playing when I was an elf.

If you prefer to sit around being friends with everyone in the Gaj and going salting with your happy band, playing a longneck probably isn't for you. (unless you plan on stabbing them all or stealing their shit) :)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Kronibas on October 29, 2013, 07:54:02 AM
Nice, Vox.  Thanks for dropping in.

And it is, for sure, hard out there for a pimp

 8)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Yasbusta on October 29, 2013, 08:01:16 AM
I don't understand why some of you are trying to bring Tuluki ideas about elves to Allanak.
Sure insulting an elf as a human might garnish their tribe irk, but who cares, why might you ask.
Well any elf tries anything with a human and every other human in the area will be standing right
next to that human even if he deserves a beating. Besides who wants to miss a chance to break an elf's bones a little.


An Akai like tribe in Alanak, hell no. I mean really hey elfie that's a nice sword, what you made it, damn that's a piece of kank dung.
Some extension of the currently closed tribe in the commons, maybe, it could be doable and work.

Not certain what I would like to see done, but I do really wish there was an open elf clan in Allanak.
Maybe if I had my say, close the guild and open Jaxa. Having both open as they are currently written always seemed foolish to me.
Basically the same group just one is for elves only.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: valeria on October 29, 2013, 08:03:08 AM
I don't understand why some of you are trying to bring Tuluki ideas about elves to Allanak.

I don't think anyone was suggesting having a semi-respectable elf tribe in Allanak proper.  I think it's been suggested to have a tribe in Allanak proper.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Yasbusta on October 29, 2013, 08:06:24 AM
I don't understand why some of you are trying to bring Tuluki ideas about elves to Allanak.

I don't think anyone was suggesting having a semi-respectable elf tribe in Allanak proper.  I think it's been suggested to have a tribe in Allanak proper.

Thinking that an Allanak human might be hesitant about insulting an elf is totally a northern thing. That or someone hasn't been reading their docs at all.
But I digress it doesn't matter, all roles increase the fun.

+1 for open elven tribe. Though still not liking in Allanak proper, keep em dirties in the rinth where they belong.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Kronibas on October 29, 2013, 08:11:42 AM
I don't know if every human would stand up to any other human insulting an elf, at least not overtly.  

I think a lot of the elf love in Tuluk has been ICly established, maybe rightfully so, at the risk of defending elf love.


I mean, even if it's an elf... what if that elf had helped a certain human a lot before?  Then you would be messing with that human's elf.  He probably likes the elf more than another mercenary, if for nothing more than the fact that the elf has hooked him up way more than that mercenary ever will/has.  He has a stake in that being, even if he knows it's a scumbag.  Shit, he might even like that elf or give business to that elf to spite a human equivalent that he's had problems with.

I can see humans defending elves in certain circumstances beyond any wild stretch of my imagination, even though I've never been in that position much, ICly. It's circumstantial.


Scenario:  A deadly elf has been a Borsail noble's one-line thodeliv hookup in Allanak for twenty years.  Byn runner #8928387 fucks with Borsail noble's drug dealer, harming him.  Does the noble do anything?  Maybe, especially if the elf has hooked him up in other ways before, too.  Replace "spice" with "tons of mastercraft items" and the principle still applies, kinda.

I think an elf tribe could emerge in Allanak if the elf played their cards right.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 29, 2013, 08:32:58 AM
Elves are tolerated in Allanak for the same reason rats and cockroaches are - getting rid of 'em all is just way too much effort. That's pretty much the only reason.

People don't hire elves for gainful employment because they're known to be a bunch of shiftless, thieving bastards. And elves rarely seek gainful employment themselves because stealing shit from the slow-ass roundears is way easier.

Then the real magick of Arm is "what do elves eat?"

Seriously, this argument is a crock, mathematically. I'm going to tear it apart, but please don't take this as a personal attack - the argument is consistent with a certain interpretation of our very bad elven roleplay doc, and is a pretty good demonstration of why it needs a rewrite.

Let's suppose elves actually are all career criminals. 135,000 free elves in Allanak against about 160,000 other free commoners. Some slaves may have things worth stealing, but for the time being I'm going to assume they're largely in squalor. I'm also going to begin with the assumption that the vast majority of elven income is from stealing from average working commoners, but that's a temporary assumption that'll be ditched as I go on.

So, our 135,000 elves need living expenses, and these are to come from the pockets of the 160,000 gainfully employed. The first thing to note is that the gainfully employed have to make enough to feed them as well. This means that they're close to making twice their own living expenses - in terms of our world, all of them are putting by enough to retire in their forties and live to seventy without the miracle of compound interest. From this sweet, incredible prosperity, they're getting reduced to bare subsistence by elven theft. And, somehow, they don't care enough about this to do anything.

Okay. Let's ditch our temporary assumption - clearly commoner pockets can't be remotely capable of paying for this, or even half of this, or even a quarter of this. Commoners would have to be way too prosperous and way too forgiving. But are we then to assume that we can feed 50,000 elves or more on the money they bleed from Salarr or Kadius or Borsail? We rapidly get to a point where the Houses are sustaining more elves from the lost money than they support as actual employees. This is insane.

So, if we want elves to actually be numerous, we need to make them more than one-dimensional cartoon villains. But I've spent most of my time so far in examining how we could keep the spirit of the docs and tie elves back into being a useful portion of the city - let's go the other way, assume they're all totally uncompromising thieving sociopaths and work out what the numbers look like then. Let's assume the average theft nets enough for a week of survival - this is likely to be very much on the high side, and is probably burglary, as if we're talking about pickpocketing pocket change we can ratchet things up by a factor of a hundred easily - and so each career thief is stealing over sixty times a year just to make bare subsistence (for riches, they'd need to be much more effective than that). At 2% of the population we're beginning to see a bit more viability - they're still a serious scourge, on average everyone loses over a week's earnings to them on a yearly basis, but it's plausible that they aren't the biggest worry in people's lives. 2% being career criminals is still insanely high by Western population standards, where we'd be looking at about one tenth of that or less, but let's go with the assumption for now that the Nakki approach to law and order makes crime more rewarding. Some of that 2% will be human, though, and if the 'Rinth's current design is any guide, it would be close to a 50-50 split. So we end up with elves down somewhere at the 1% level, which is below the currently listed population level of half-elves.

If elves genuinely are not so numerous, it's much harder to claim that nothing can be done about them. That defence evaporates. They would get dealt with much as PC elves get dealt with. A handful might cling on in parts of the city the templars don't care about, bleeding a little from commoner pockets, but they'd be few and powerless. And well, we could absolutely go that direction, it makes sense with how elves are currently treated ICly, but there'd be a bunch of retconning required.

Now, this whole piece smacks a little of Superman physics, I admit. But I think we're stretching credibility and believability not to tell a more exciting story, but in order to make our story and world worse. The world as actually built is more interesting than this - it has elven crafters, elven shopkeepers, elves gainfully employed doing useful stuff. There's complexity. By stripping away the complexity, we get something worse. Players know it's worse, and shy away from playing something that's simply a bad deal on every front: in terms of employment, in terms of social interaction, in terms of actually having an interesting character with multiple motivations, humans are simply better. It doesn't have to be this way. There's space for exploring racial tensions, for exploring adherence to the tribe above the law, for exploring the compromises of proud peoples in desperate circumstances. What we currently have is a point where instead of actually exploring prejudice, we're being encouraged to indulge in the "Boo, hiss" which greets pantomime villains.

Frankly, we need someone to step up and do better than the roleplay doc crafted barely after Arm's hack and slash days. That doc is pretty bad at laying out a sustainable blueprint for PC living, let alone VNPC. But casually simplifying it further, taking away the looser interpretations of "theft", is terribly depressing: we should be better at roleplay than we were ten years ago, not worse.



Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on October 29, 2013, 09:49:07 AM
I've never understood the whole idea of 'elves don't do work because they can just steal everything' thing either. Yes, elves are quicker than humans. No, you can't feed an entire goddamn race by mooching off of people very much capable of defending themselves.

To me, the idea of elves being career criminals is something of an ideal they'd like to fulfil, not something many of them actually attain on a lifetime basis. As an analogy, consider modern humans having an ideal of getting rich, or a medieval ideal of piety. Everybody tries it, but getting rich is tough, and so is living without sin at all. The same could be said for elves: certainly, being a career thief would be a life of glory, but then there's the unfortunate problem that elves have stomachs to fill, too.

So what's left, in my eyes, is a race of people where the cleverest/quickest/most desperate of them all would indeed be fully-fledged thieves, with the others getting by in other ways. This does not, however, mean they aren't elves. An elf who can't subsist merely by stealing/conning might become a stoneworker, but that doesn't mean he won't grin and give another elf the thumbs up whilst he brags about having nicked something right from a shopkeeper's counter, nor does it mean that the stoneworker won't be thinking of ways to steal any valuable/well guarded things in whatever place he lives, despite probably never getting to live out his fantasies.

Don't play elves as one-dimensional people who only care about impressive heists, and nothing else. Elves love, fear, hate, and cherish, too. The difference is that among all the emotions people of any other race will feel, elves respect and almost venerate theft. A lazy elf might not steal all that much because he knows he's awful at it and slacks off more than practice his stealing. An envious elf might sabotage another elf's hijinks because he resents them being so much more talented than they. An elf in love with another might impress them by stealing a particularly valuable soup spoon, despite it making an otherwise lousy gift.

What I'm basically saying is that elves are more than walking machines of perpetual theft and larceny. Yes, elves will be thieves more often than humans, but that's because thievery is not something an elf resorts to out of desperation, but because of his striving to do so. But these thieves are but one facet of a race that does not magically lack deadbeats, cripples, hunger and bluntness, so make sure to take this into account before you call elves a single template race outside of IC channels.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Jherlen on October 29, 2013, 11:41:42 AM
I think Quirk's done a good job here and elsewhere bringing up some contradictions that need to be addressed, one way or another. The docs describe nearly all city elves as thieves and liars who wouldn't do honest work and would prefer to steal and swindle. Yet staff statements have also said city elves are by far the most populous nonhuman race in both cities, making up a large chunk of the total commoner population. It's a bit of a stretch to say all those elves are thieves and none of them contribute at all in a positive way to the city?

I wonder if the best solution for now isn't to just acknowledge the reality of the playable game world in 'nak and revise the number of elves in the city downward a bit. Instead of the ~130000ish number, something like 50000 might make more sense, and the majority of those in the 'rinth. I'd love to see more opportunity for elven warriors, elven merchants and elven craftsmen, but unless we either create new clans or change hiring policies in existing ones, I don't know if those are very playable roles in Allanak right now.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Eurynomos on October 29, 2013, 11:48:49 AM
I don't think we said 'by far'? I could be mistaken. But I don't think I am.

There needs to be some suspense of belief with the game -- There are plenty of things that don't make perfect sense, but are glossed over for the sake of playability. This is probably one of them.

It is true that the Jaxa Pah will be getting a documentation revamp treatment -- Viewing this thread/discussion provides some insight into problem areas for the race in general for players, and will be taken into consideration when the revamp is under way.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Jherlen on October 29, 2013, 11:57:31 AM
Eurynomos, I was referring to this (somewhat old) post that had population numbers for both cities:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.0.html

Quote
Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

So there are supposed to be 20 times as many elves as dwarves in Allanak, and just a little under 10x as many elves as all other nonhumans combined, by those numbers. Maybe they could be updated?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on October 29, 2013, 12:49:15 PM
Eurynomos, I was referring to this (somewhat old) post that had population numbers for both cities:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.0.html

Quote
Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

So there are supposed to be 20 times as many elves as dwarves in Allanak, and just a little under 10x as many elves as all other nonhumans combined, by those numbers. Maybe they could be updated?

See, the problem of this all is that there's no proper way out.

If you say 'it makes sense if there's less elves,' it still doesn't, because the elves would get wiped out within the decade if they behave the way Italis said i.e. stealing everything not bolted down.

If you say 'that many elves get by because they can steal everything' it still doesn't, just because there's not that much to steal.

I still think the third solution, 'not all elves get by on thievery,' makes the most sense, but apparently it isn't a reason that seems very appealing to staff.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 29, 2013, 12:51:12 PM
I think those elven docs need to be reworded too. Someone else had this line of thinking which I thought was great. Perhaps the docs should be reworded to something like this :

Quote

Elves enjoy getting something for less than it is worth, whether that be goods or services. Elves generally
have a hive mentality towards their tribe thus the things they often do will benefit them and/or their
tribe the most. Thus elves would rarely if ever do something out of the kindness of their hearts in regards
to an outsider they do not yet trust at least. They would rarely if ever give water to a dying person unless
they could profit or benefit from helping them in some way. This ideal can take many forms such as
haggling, negotiating, alliances (you can work with someone even if you don't completely trust them)
and yes even stealing and raiding. To elves, this ideal of taking full advantage of people or situations is
simply a valuable survival tactic and is therefore an admired trait within elven culture. Due to this behavior
other races often regarded elves as swindlers, con artists and thieves.


Again these are just ideas I've read from other people on the GDB. It needs a bit more work and fluff perhaps but that would be the general idea. It pulls the wording away specifically from theft and instead focusing getting something for less, taking advantage of situations or people, which of course theft easily falls upon.  Also the idea of it being some sort of test of courage as opposed to something more practical like just survival instincts. Again I don't think it would be a retcon or  change just slightly different wording that better reflect how elves are probably played in game right now.
 
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 29, 2013, 01:53:47 PM
Eurynomos, I was referring to this (somewhat old) post that had population numbers for both cities:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.0.html

Quote
Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

So there are supposed to be 20 times as many elves as dwarves in Allanak, and just a little under 10x as many elves as all other nonhumans combined, by those numbers. Maybe they could be updated?

See, the problem of this all is that there's no proper way out.

If you say 'it makes sense if there's less elves,' it still doesn't, because the elves would get wiped out within the decade if they behave the way Italis said i.e. stealing everything not bolted down.

If you say 'that many elves get by because they can steal everything' it still doesn't, just because there's not that much to steal.

I still think the third solution, 'not all elves get by on thievery,' makes the most sense, but apparently it isn't a reason that seems very appealing to staff.

The impact of having less elves that I find most interesting is less half-elves, potentially to the point of wiping out VNPC half-elves. Knock elven numbers down by a factor of twenty, and half-elves come down too. If we did that, we'd possibly be down to 170 free half-elves in Nak - and then it seems entirely plausible that PCs could "use up" those 170 half-elves within the space of a year or two and we'd need some kind of conservation project to keep the poor endangered species alive.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Timetwister on October 29, 2013, 01:55:36 PM
I find the fact that there are apparently more city-elves than desert-elves somewhat disturbing. This seems to be a hole in the documentation never explained which is unfortunate.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on October 29, 2013, 02:22:47 PM
I find the fact that there are apparently more city-elves than desert-elves somewhat disturbing. This seems to be a hole in the documentation never explained which is unfortunate.

I'm not sure if this should be so disturbing. More, certainly, but not by the magnitude where there's more city than nomad humans.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Timetwister on October 29, 2013, 02:29:22 PM
I find the fact that there are apparently more city-elves than desert-elves somewhat disturbing. This seems to be a hole in the documentation never explained which is unfortunate.

I'm not sure if this should be so disturbing. More, certainly, but not by the magnitude where there's more city than nomad humans.

Either way I guess I always thought an elf is an elf is an elf. Why are there "city" elves and "desert" elves. I just don't understand that. Why can't elves choose to be both, as needed?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on October 29, 2013, 02:54:08 PM
I find the fact that there are apparently more city-elves than desert-elves somewhat disturbing. This seems to be a hole in the documentation never explained which is unfortunate.

I'm not sure if this should be so disturbing. More, certainly, but not by the magnitude where there's more city than nomad humans.

Either way I guess I always thought an elf is an elf is an elf. Why are there "city" elves and "desert" elves. I just don't understand that. Why can't elves choose to be both, as needed?

That is another issue. And one I might as well agree with, too, but then I don't think this is the thread for discussing just that either.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 29, 2013, 02:54:21 PM
I don't think we said 'by far'? I could be mistaken. But I don't think I am.

There needs to be some suspense of belief with the game -- There are plenty of things that don't make perfect sense, but are glossed over for the sake of playability. This is probably one of them.

I'd argue that the things that don't make sense which are being glossed over are the things that hurt playability, not help it. A simple reading of the elven roleplay docs shows them set on a collision course with the world, ramping up their thefts until their courage outweighs their competence and they perish. Because this isn't even sustainable on a single PC level, it's impossible to conceive of a whole race plausibly existing like this. They're all career criminals wearing a sign on their ears saying "Hi, I'm a career criminal"? That's a pretty futile role to play as well as being one that makes baby Darwin cry. And I'm not dismissing those who manage to add some spice to that role despite being handicapped, they're awesome - but literally interpreting the docs will be a handicap to them.

If we looked hard at how a race with the elven traits could survive in an environment which is predominantly hostile to them, I think we would come up with a bevy of answers that were actually useful to PC roleplay and that opened interesting territory to explore. I'm not saying they can't be incredibly crooked and sociopathic to those outside their tribe, I'm saying that if PCs are to play these crooked sociopaths, having some explanation of how they make a living in a way that doesn't encourage society to just wipe them out would be useful.


Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Potaje on October 29, 2013, 03:24:44 PM
Because in Allanak the human race is the supreme race and they don't pretend to like/affiliate with sharps.  Personally I'd rather keep the longnecks in the alleys and if they're going to let 'gicks fraternize they'll be doing it in shadow, like the subspecies they are.

The longnecks aren't a small number of skulking alley dwellers, they're almost half the free portion of the city. Most independent humans should be bloody careful in how they go about bad-mouthing a sharp.

Edited to add: I'm talking about working with gemmers, not ungemmed, of course. Keeping ungemmed tribemates doesn't seem smart, unless you really are a bunch of filthy alley-dwellers. But working with a gemmer? That I can see.


I'm just going to bring up the obvious, Templars control the gemmed, they control the magickall of Allanak. They would control the magickall of the known, and most times try.

Why do Templars do this and with the acceptation of Oash or perhaps other noble houses, do other organizations not control and collaborate with the gemmed?

Simply because its about power and magickers, the gemmed, off balance things in a drastic manner. Or they can. 1. Nobles and Templars are Largly sponsored roles that have the trust to not abuse certain aspects of power (or over abuse), one being the use of a army of magickal pcs. 2. A templar would not stand for any organization, group, or otherwise maintaining open or even hushed use of such power, tipping the scales of strength. 3. Elves in allanak are not the elves of Tuluk, they do not, have not, will most likely not attain a position of greater standing, and certainly not on par with a noble, which if one could even get the Templaret to look the other way about this magick thing, you would not get them to.

You can argue it all you want, rationalize it till you discover the meaning of the universe within it, but it is very doudtfull it would be allowed, and allowed being the key word, icly nor oocly.

Let's face it Templar's are possessive power mongering, baby snatching Lords of the manner. They sit around with a glass of brandy in one hand and a finger on the red button of absolute nuclear annihilation with the other, that is the gemmed. And they don;t like other fingers on their buttons.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 29, 2013, 05:18:26 PM
Quote

Elves enjoy getting something for less than it is worth, whether that be goods or services. Elves generally
have a hive mentality towards their tribe thus the things they often do will benefit them and/or their
tribe the most. Thus elves would rarely if ever do something out of the kindness of their hearts in regards
to an outsider they do not yet trust at least. They would rarely if ever give water to a dying person unless
they could profit or benefit from helping them in some way. This ideal can take many forms such as
haggling, negotiating, alliances (you can work with someone even if you don't completely trust them)
and yes even stealing and raiding. To elves, this ideal of taking full advantage of people or situations is
simply a valuable survival tactic and is therefore an admired trait within elven culture. Due to this behavior
other races often regarded elves as swindlers, con artists and thieves.


This is how I've always seen elves.

Kinda like how Vikings and Klingons are always view as being "HONOR ABOVE ALL DIE IN BATTLE RAWR" yet they're not all the crazy wtf in-your-face warriors like many aspire to be.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 29, 2013, 06:10:45 PM
Quote

Elves enjoy getting something for less than it is worth, whether that be goods or services. Elves generally
have a hive mentality towards their tribe thus the things they often do will benefit them and/or their
tribe the most. Thus elves would rarely if ever do something out of the kindness of their hearts in regards
to an outsider they do not yet trust at least. They would rarely if ever give water to a dying person unless
they could profit or benefit from helping them in some way. This ideal can take many forms such as
haggling, negotiating, alliances (you can work with someone even if you don't completely trust them)
and yes even stealing and raiding. To elves, this ideal of taking full advantage of people or situations is
simply a valuable survival tactic and is therefore an admired trait within elven culture. Due to this behavior
other races often regarded elves as swindlers, con artists and thieves.


This is how I've always seen elves.

Kinda like how Vikings and Klingons are always view as being "HONOR ABOVE ALL DIE IN BATTLE RAWR" yet they're not all the crazy wtf in-your-face warriors like many aspire to be.

I see the actual theft-focused mentality the docs suggest as workable, and a bit like being football-mad.

If you're football-mad and have some talent, when you grow up you've got hopes for a while of being a great player and of making a living from the game. Most teenage footballers don't eventually make it to the big leagues, but they likely retain their love of the game, keep their hand in when they get a chance and follow the best in the sport avidly. There's a time and a place for football, as physically tackling the boss on Monday morning isn't the best of career moves, and so it has to fit round the sordid business of making a living - but you know, it's football, and if they can chat about some game with a fellow fan in a break, so much the better.

For me, the career criminal is to the average elf as the football pro is to such a football fan: someone to be admired, envied, and talked about with the appreciation that what they do is immensely difficult. I imagine elven workplace conversation turning from news of some daring heist to a bit of petty one-upelfship between the workers comparing their recent form on the most minor of minor thefts - stuff safe to steal, stuff unimportant to its owners, but still stuff, stuff that can be finessed away from where it was meant to be with skill and elegance. Then, perhaps, some grizzled elf chimes in with a legitimately daring story from his youth, and the old-timers talk about how nobody really steals like they used to, not any more, until the break's over and everyone has to go back to work.

I don't think tribes will necessarily be happy with elves in them that ambitiously bite off more than they can chew. The trouble's almost secondary - being the laughing stock of other tribes is in some ways much worse. So, I actually think the elven career criminal is either someone whose tribe trusts them not to fuck up and wreck the tribe's reputation, or some tribeless elf hoping to prove themselves to the point that the tribes that shun and despise them want to be associated with their legend.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Jherlen on October 29, 2013, 09:14:23 PM
Here's a crazy idea - what if we came up with six or seven southsider city elf tribes for elf pcs to use as backgrounds? They wouldn't need coded support, just a name, some customs and a brief description. Maybe having some more documentation around city elf tribes would help city elves be more playable?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 29, 2013, 09:30:19 PM
Here's a crazy idea - what if we came up with six or seven southsider city elf tribes for elf pcs to use as backgrounds? They wouldn't need coded support, just a name, some customs and a brief description. Maybe having some more documentation around city elf tribes would help city elves be more playable?

This would actually be a nice improvement since it would provide some foundational background for city elves. Right now if you want to start a city elf, you are basically responsible for coming up with your own virtual tribe.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Timetwister on October 29, 2013, 10:05:36 PM
Here's a crazy idea - what if we came up with six or seven southsider city elf tribes for elf pcs to use as backgrounds? They wouldn't need coded support, just a name, some customs and a brief description. Maybe having some more documentation around city elf tribes would help city elves be more playable?

To be honest I'd rather see city elves given the same running capability as desert elves, it would basically fix all of the problems associated with them. The docs say they are the same race but I don't get how you "forget" how to run? I've also seen this brought up numerous times before on the boards. It just seems like long ago it was coded this way because a coder wanted it that way and so it never got changed to something that made more sense, such as letting the city elves run in the desert as well.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 29, 2013, 10:06:49 PM
I don't know if staff would go for that but I guess there's nothing to stop someone from creating a player-created tribe in the vein of the Akai where unclanned elves can join up.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Eurynomos on October 29, 2013, 11:53:08 PM
I don't know if staff would go for that but I guess there's nothing to stop someone from creating a player-created tribe in the vein of the Akai where unclanned elves can join up.

There is, actually. We currently don't allow tribe-calls via players. We had abuse of this in the past, which lead to family roles requiring previous approval. The terminology difference between tribe and family may seem blurry -- especially where elves are concerned. It's something we have discussed in the past, but this is current policy as it stands.

I suppose technically your elf could start a tribe, but there doesn't seem to be enough of a PC presence in the city elf population to warrant this ever really coming about. It looks like a catch 22, at times -- players imagine a world where city elves are a more playable race, but the niche that elves fit via documentation doesn't allow for most of that.

I suppose a question I have is -- Do players enjoy playing city elves enough to warrant these kinds of changes? I played several city-elves in the past, both in the Labyrinth and Allanak, and didn't have much trouble playing to the documentation and having a great time. They are a difficult race to get into, but i'm unsure if broad changes to the race as a whole are going to solve the problem for some people. Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 29, 2013, 11:59:00 PM
Sorry for the confusion, that's what I meant. ICly creating a tribe and recruiting in-game in the same manner that Amos the hunter can go create his own hunting group or whatever.

I think that while Quirk's posts about a sustainable elven society and what not make sense, but I can suspend my disbelief and ignore it in-game since the docs work well enough for non-virtual elves. 150,000 elves can't survive entirely on theft, but 5-10 non-virtual elves can, and I can accept that. I like the niche they have, and I don't think they need to be "easier", but I think part of the reason interest in tribes like the Jaxa and city elves in general is so low is because players perceive city elves as being a bad choice both for coded and in-character benefits, and there aren't enough roleplay opportunities present or obvious to make up for that.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 30, 2013, 12:19:06 AM
The elven role in society really oughta be looked at and probably revamped somewhat. It's pretty odd to have that many elves around as portrayed by docs and not have had full out genocide yet.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Timetwister on October 30, 2013, 12:21:48 AM
The elven role in society really oughta be looked at and probably revamped somewhat. It's pretty odd to have that many elves around as portrayed by docs and not have had full out genocide yet.

I don't necessarily mind the numbers. We have to stretch things like that from time to time. Not everything can be realistic. My main concern is their unplayability. It comes down to simple mechanics, every c-elf I've ever tried just sits around and does nothing. It's a very sedentary lifestyle for such an -active- race. D-elves aren't like that. They just -feel- like two totally different races to me and that is... unfortunate.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 30, 2013, 12:25:22 AM
I don't know if staff would go for that but I guess there's nothing to stop someone from creating a player-created tribe in the vein of the Akai where unclanned elves can join up.

I suppose a question I have is -- Do players enjoy playing city elves enough to warrant these kinds of changes? I played several city-elves in the past, both in the Labyrinth and Allanak, and didn't have much trouble playing to the documentation and having a great time.


 "Do players enjoy city elves enough to warrant these changes?" If players were enjoying city elves, they would not need these changes. Nobody would bother asking for anything or making thread about them if they thought everything was fine. That's a seriously weird question to ask, it's precisely that people ARE NOT enjoying city elves and how they are protreayed that they would even make threads such as this.

 I'm glad to see you personally have had fun with city elves "to the documentation" in the past... Really thank you for so vaguely letting us know how easy it was to accomplish that task. Guess what. I've had fun playing elves in the past too. It's fun being an ineffectual pest and nuisance that gets swatted down by everyone and has little to no sense of growth or accomplishment... Once or twice.

You say elves being playable is a niche that the documentation doesn't allow for in the thread where people are calling for a change to documentation, and even providing suggestions on how to do so. Did you even read those posts? I really don't understand how you can say that, while at the same time excepting an entity like the Akai Sjir in Tuluk...
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 12:29:38 AM
The elven role in society really oughta be looked at and probably revamped somewhat. It's pretty odd to have that many elves around as portrayed by docs and not have had full out genocide yet.

I don't necessarily mind the numbers. We have to stretch things like that from time to time. Not everything can be realistic. My main concern is their unplayability. It comes down to simple mechanics, every c-elf I've ever tried just sits around and does nothing. It's a very sedentary lifestyle for such an -active- race. D-elves aren't like that. They just -feel- like two totally different races to me and that is... unfortunate.

I've had plenty of fun on my city elves, but that fun has consisted of stealing things, hitting people to steal their things, and trying to make friends who also like stealing things. You can't go looking to clans or other players for something to do if you play a city elf. The stigma against elves and your inability to travel easily outside the city means you're gonna have to make your own fun.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 30, 2013, 12:36:36 AM
You say elves being playable is a niche that the documentation doesn't allow for in the thread where people are calling for a change to documentation, and even providing suggestions on how to do so. Did you even read those posts? I really don't understand how you can say that, while at the same time excepting an entity like the Akai Sjir in Tuluk...

Or for that matter a number of D-Elf tribes who partake in many various different trades and traditions, few of which are based solely on theft.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 30, 2013, 12:38:30 AM
Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?

In their current form I think c-elves should be karma restricted. A newbie making trying them out for their first, second or even third character is probably not going to be an enjoyable experience. You really need to know what you are getting into when making a c-elf.  In their current form I would make them 1 karma or if you give them the ability to run like d-elves three karma.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Timetwister on October 30, 2013, 12:38:53 AM
Quote
The stigma against elves and your inability to travel easily outside the city means you're gonna have to make your own fun.

I'm kind of perturbed by this statement. The game is a collaborative effort of roleplaying. I want to interact with others and travel is a big part of that. I guess my ultimate question is why is it two separate races and why are city elves hamstrung so badly? If they were a karma 1 like d-elf would that help them get the elf-running state thing?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 30, 2013, 12:43:23 AM
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 12:45:26 AM
If city elves had a karma requirement, I think they would be even rarer than they are now.

I don't think they will ever get the ability to run like desert elves, or you'd suddenly see a hundred tribe less independent city elves raiding and pillaging the wastes, defeating the purpose of forcing all delf players into two clans.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 30, 2013, 12:46:38 AM
Yeh, stats isn't the answer. Elves need to be more clearly defined, and to be honest, the 'stealing' thing really needs to become ... something else. Maybe like Quirk suggested, an aspiration. It can't be part of everyday life for 130k elves. They really would all be dead by now.

Elves need a role that serves a purpose in society, and not just a criminal role - every race has a reason to be criminals now as it is, in such a deprived world as Zalanthas. Elves need a role that has less theft in it and more service to their society.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Timetwister on October 30, 2013, 12:47:04 AM
Quote
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

I think that would make them far more playable. I really have no reason to ever play an c-elf ever again because of the experience I had with my few that I have had. It was just a terrible playability issue for me. I don't mind getting in-character but I totally enjoyed my d-elves FAR more than my c-elves because they could actually interact with people and they just felt.. I dunno.. more -elvish- to me than c-elves C-elves to me feel like humans with 'elf' in the sdesc.. maybe that sounds wrong but that is just my experience with them.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Timetwister on October 30, 2013, 12:51:17 AM
Quote
Elves need a role that serves a purpose in society, and not just a criminal role - every race has a reason to be criminals now as it is, in such a deprived world as Zalanthas. Elves need a role that has less theft in it and more service to their society.

I kind of disagree here. Elves are scum. The word honor doesn't exist in their language. They should be wandering, thieving bastards that they are. The problem is city-elves can't wander, they can never leave the cities safely unless they are extremely long lived and that to me goes against what they are at their core. They are one race but for some unexplainable reason ones that live in the desert run better than ones living in the cities. I'm reminded of Kenyans really.. running is ingrained into their culture.. just because some live and train in the city doesn't mean they won't win that marathon over ones that live in more rural areas. I guess not the best analogy I'm just trying to understand why things are the way they are with c-elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 30, 2013, 12:52:05 AM
If they were a karma 1 like d-elf would that help them get the elf-running state thing?

If they got the ability to run like their d-elf cousins they would need to be bumped to at least three karma right up there with half-giants. Desert elves are powerful especially as rangers but they are also heavily restricted to the Pah and luirs mostly. If a group of soh was allowed wander around the known, mages would probably go extinct. :P
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 12:56:43 AM
Quote
Elves need a role that serves a purpose in society, and not just a criminal role - every race has a reason to be criminals now as it is, in such a deprived world as Zalanthas. Elves need a role that has less theft in it and more service to their society.

I kind of disagree here. Elves are scum. The word honor doesn't exist in their language. They should be wandering, thieving bastards that they are. The problem is city-elves can't wander, they can never leave the cities safely unless they are extremely long lived and that to me goes against what they are at their core. They are one race but for some unexplainable reason ones that live in the desert run better than ones living in the cities. I'm reminded of Kenyans really.. running is ingrained into their culture.. just because some live and train in the city doesn't mean they won't win that marathon over ones that live in more rural areas. I guess not the best analogy I'm just trying to understand why things are the way they are with c-elves.

I get the sense that you want city elves to be able to function as desert elf-lite outside the city, which I think is redundant and doesn't serve to address the real issue.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 30, 2013, 12:58:45 AM
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

I agree. However I think Nyr has the right idea that elves should be restricted from newbies selecting them as their first character. I just think this is also true for their second, forth and so on. You really need someone with more experience in the game to make the role enjoyable. A player needs to understand the many limitations of race and the effort you need to put in to make them playable and have fun with them.

Thus if there is no interesting in changing them we should just make them one karma.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 12:59:32 AM
I keep getting the feeling that you guys keep trying to "lone wolf" that shit with your city elves.

Group up. Do cool shit. A trio or a even a pair of moderately-skilled city elves with smart players won't have too much trouble "wandering" from city to city and proceeding to do cool shit elsewhere. Pay/befriend a human to act as a "face" for doing business. Be creative.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 01:04:29 AM
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

I agree. However I think Nyr has the right idea that elves should be restricted from newbies selecting them as their first character. I just think this is also true for their second, forth and so on. You really need someone with more experience in the game to make the role enjoyable. A player needs to understand the many limitations of race and the effort you need to put in to make them playable and have fun with them.

Thus if there is no interesting in changing them we should just make them one karma.

But... are you reading the thread? There is obviously an interest in changing them. Giving city-elves a karma requirement is a bandaid solution that does not address the problem, it just means that less people will have access to them.

I keep getting the feeling that you guys keep trying to "lone wolf" that shit with your city elves.

Group up. Do cool shit. A trio or a even a pair of moderately-skilled city elves with smart players won't have too much trouble "wandering" from city to city and proceeding to do cool shit elsewhere. Pay/befriend a human to act as a "face" for doing business. Be creative.

I don't think anybody is saying you can't play an indie city elf. Outside of Tuluk, there is a distinct lack of engaging and viable clan options for city elves, a race that relies very heavily on tribal interaction and culture according to the documentation.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 01:14:18 AM
Y'know, I've never seen a city elf sergeant in the Byn....? I would imagine that could be a very engaging and viable role to play, but it almost seems like every c-elf bounces after their year is up.

Same goes for Kurac. I seem to remember a role call for a Kuraci sergeant, and elf was an avaliable race for the role. I have a feeling that there were very few, if any, elven responses to that call.

I mean, yeah. Two whole clans outside of Tuluk, that's not very much-- but what do you expect? There seems to be hardly any interest for elves in what's already available, unless I've just -really- not been paying attention.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Blur on October 30, 2013, 01:14:23 AM
Karma restrictions would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems that make the race unenjoyable. Also, buffing stats, and adding skills is seriously the wrong approach. It might make more people want to play them but it wont make them more playable.

I agree. However I think Nyr has the right idea that elves should be restricted from newbies selecting them as their first character. I just think this is also true for their second, forth and so on. You really need someone with more experience in the game to make the role enjoyable. A player needs to understand the many limitations of race and the effort you need to put in to make them playable and have fun with them.

Thus if there is no interesting in changing them we should just make them one karma.

But... are you reading the thread? There is obviously an interest in changing them. Giving city-elves a karma requirement is a bandaid solution that does not address the problem, it just means that less people will have access to them.


Players want to change them however it feels like staff want to keep them as they are currently. *shrug*

I agree that karma restricting them is a bandaid solution that doesn't solve any of their problems but it is better then no solution at all. At the very least newbies will be protected even if it means they become more rare.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 30, 2013, 01:23:13 AM
Y'know, I've never seen a city elf sergeant in the Byn....? I would imagine that could be a very engaging and viable role to play, but it almost seems like every c-elf bounces after their year is up.

Same goes for Kurac. I seem to remember a role call for a Kuraci sergeant, and elf was an avaliable race for the role. I have a feeling that there were very few, if any, elven responses to that call.

I mean, yeah. Two whole clans outside of Tuluk, that's not very much-- but what do you expect? There seems to be hardly any interest for elves in what's already available, unless I've just -really- not been paying attention.

Elves generally bounce after a year in the Byn because they have pretty much zero ability to go on contracts safely. Same with Elves in Kurac.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 01:25:49 AM
What is an elven sergeant to fear when he's got half a dozen trained meat-shields on beetles to protect him on an order?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 30, 2013, 01:31:57 AM
What is an elven sergeant to fear when he's got half a dozen trained meat-shields on beetles to protect him on an order?

How does the elf survive being a Runner/recruit that needs to go outside? How does the Elf ever go from Mercenary/Trooper to Sergeant, while being nearly useless, and a burden on everyone he is around?

Who would ever hire that elf over the much more capable human?

I'm not saying it is impossible to do. I think I heard about it happening 1 or 2 times in the entirety of this games lifespan. I'm just saying that isn't a realistic selection of opportunities for a player wanting to enjoy an elf.


More importantly how do human underlings EVER respect that useless elf they have to wait every 5 rooms of movement for.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 01:32:28 AM
His half dozen trained meat-shields abandoning him in his tent while he's resting and a mekillot wanders in.

But it's okay, because we know the elf never made sergeant since he never got taken on contracts in the first place.


Also please don't use the fact that an elf sergeant would have help from underlings as an excuse for the state elves are in.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 02:01:20 AM
Go easy on me, I'm just throwing out observations and suggestions.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Narf on October 30, 2013, 02:09:14 AM
I don't know if staff would go for that but I guess there's nothing to stop someone from creating a player-created tribe in the vein of the Akai where unclanned elves can join up.

There is, actually. We currently don't allow tribe-calls via players. We had abuse of this in the past, which lead to family roles requiring previous approval. The terminology difference between tribe and family may seem blurry -- especially where elves are concerned. It's something we have discussed in the past, but this is current policy as it stands.

I suppose technically your elf could start a tribe, but there doesn't seem to be enough of a PC presence in the city elf population to warrant this ever really coming about. It looks like a catch 22, at times -- players imagine a world where city elves are a more playable race, but the niche that elves fit via documentation doesn't allow for most of that.

I suppose a question I have is -- Do players enjoy playing city elves enough to warrant these kinds of changes? I played several city-elves in the past, both in the Labyrinth and Allanak, and didn't have much trouble playing to the documentation and having a great time. They are a difficult race to get into, but i'm unsure if broad changes to the race as a whole are going to solve the problem for some people. Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?

For me, changing city elves to make them more playable has always been a very high priority. This is not so much because I really want to play a city elf (although it'd be nice), but rather because I think they add tremendously to the atmosphere.

In fact, I think city elves have the greatest potential to add atompshere to the two cities of any of the demi-human races.

But they can only do this if they represent significant enough numbers. Having one or two tribeless elves running around Alanak doesn't really do anything for the players at large. But if you could actually get a sample of PCs that represented anything close to their virtual population it would be awesome.

Picture walking into the Gaj as a character and having a table of elves, all talking amongst themselves take a break from their conversation to size you up.

Picture walking throught he market and three PC elves go running by.

Imagine walking by one of the many alleys in the commoners quarter and glancing down one to see a large group of elves skulking around, talking in their weird language about Tek knows what.


There's a feeling that you get from seeing this as an outsider that's far more immersive than anything that dwarves and giants and even humans can really offer, and it's for that reason that I think city elves deserve attention.

The goal for me is not just to fix a race so that a few people can play it and have fun with it (although that's a good secondary goal), the goal is to fix the race so that everyone in the game will have the experience of interacting with a group of racially separated, xenophobic, tight-knit, and above all numerically significant subset of Alanaki (and Tuluki) culture.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Narf on October 30, 2013, 02:12:43 AM
Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?

In their current form I think c-elves should be karma restricted. A newbie making trying them out for their first, second or even third character is probably not going to be an enjoyable experience. You really need to know what you are getting into when making a c-elf.  In their current form I would make them 1 karma or if you give them the ability to run like d-elves three karma.

I understand this thought process, and for what you say it would probably help. It would keep new players from playing a race that's very difficult and doesn't have a lot of avenues open to it. But in the grand scheme of things making this a karma restricted race is going to make the problem with elves a lot worse because you're going to reduce their population even further.

I think the game really needs more elves, not less.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 02:18:56 AM
Is there anything "broken" about elves aside from their inability to get from City A to City B without needing to rest and the lack of tribes/elven groups that are apparently impossible to form IG currently?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Narf on October 30, 2013, 02:22:57 AM
Is there anything "broken" about elves aside from their inability to get from City A to City B without needing to rest and the lack of tribes/elven groups that are apparently impossible to form IG currently?

I'd actually argue that's not their problem. If you're playing them according to the documentation, they shouldn't be travelling much.

But if you're playing them according to their documenation, you have an enormous support structure to both draw from and contribute to.

This is what they're really missing. The other stuff is just a distraction.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 02:45:19 AM
Quote from: Docs
While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe.

It seems to me that if there were simply more people playing elves, stuff like this could happen. :/

Could you show where you got "enormous support structure" from? I couldn't find it in the main "Celf RP" helpfile. >_>
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 02:51:52 AM
I think one of the best thins that can be done with new Jaxa documents is make it easier for people to play IN the clan. Labyrinth clans are notoriously difficult to join, and for northern elves, joining the Akai is a much easier affair.

Also, it might have been possible in the past, but it would be neat if players could apply for characters in the tribe via role application request similar to how coded human tribes function.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 02:57:36 AM
I think one of the best thins that can be done with new Jaxa documents is make it easier for people to play IN the clan. Labyrinth clans are notoriously difficult to join, and for northern elves, joining the Akai is a much easier affair.

Also, it might have been possible in the past, but it would be neat if players could apply for characters in the tribe via role application request similar to how coded human tribes function.

Now that wouldn't be a bad idea-- but think of The Guild. Having players able to app right into a city-based tribe would unbalance things in 'Rinth something fierce*, which wouldn't make much sense given the documentation. It was almost like that even without being able to app straight in before the Jaxa Pah were closed.

*And I mean this in the sense that I don't think The Guild, one of the supposedly more feared Clans around, should ever be in a position to where they have to kneel to the eastside or face "huehuehueeveryoneintheclanisdeadnow".
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 03:01:05 AM
It might upset numbers in the Guild-Jaxa tug of war that always seems to happen, but the Guild has plenty of other advantages, notably, the fact that they aren't elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 03:02:57 AM
but the Guild has plenty of other advantages, notably, the fact that they aren't elves.

Which doesn't help much when there's a chance that the Guild Leader logs in and--OH GREAT NOW I HAVE TO START A WHOLE NOTHER F'CKING CREW.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 03:21:26 AM
It makes significantly more sense ICly for elves to have been born into the tribe than join off the street, and much like existing app-able tribes, staff can monitor player numbers and deny applications if it seems like there are issues with too many players.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Qzzrbl on October 30, 2013, 03:29:47 AM
It makes significantly more sense ICly for elves to have been born into the tribe than join off the street.

Does it? 'Cause every bit of documentation I've read on City Elves and their RP so far have never mentioned blood relation being necessary to be a tribe. I'm not disagreeing with you wholesale, as it does hint at entire families being in tribes, but I thought they already had it set up according to docs before? With elves belonging to families within the tribe having to special app (or something) their way in and take others in off the street ICly.

and much like existing app-able tribes, staff can monitor player numbers and deny applications if it seems like there are issues with too many players.

Yeah, good point.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 03:55:20 AM
Maybe it was, although I can't recall any instance of non-sponsored blood members of the Jaxa that I've encountered. The docs state explicitly that there are three families in the tribe. Does that mean there are three families with distinct traits and quirks, and then a big group of elves with no blood-relation to the tribe who were just swept up off the street?

I mean, tribes have to come from somewhere, but if everyone is just a random necker out of the alleys, it really detracts from the tribal experience as it is the functional equivalent of any other clan where you can just be recruited in-game.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 30, 2013, 03:56:31 AM
Perhaps the Jaxa could go from being a strictly east-side clan to being a Allanaki Proper clan as well. Branches, if you like. Then you still have the one clan, with ties in the Rinth, but members that might never have even been to the Rinth.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: catchall on October 30, 2013, 06:17:42 AM
Quote
Do they? 'Cause every bit of documentation I've read on City Elves and their RP so far have never mentioned blood relation being necessary to be a tribe.

Yes.  The notion of 'joining' a tribe is actually pretty bizarre IC, and should probably be relatively uncommon.

From "Elven Roleplay" Doc:
Quote
Elves also naturally trust their tribemates. They know that every elf in their tribe feels the same loyalty they do - so they have a strong ingrained trust and even reliance upon all of their kin. To act in a harmful way against a tribemate is an unthinkable act in an elven tribe.

"Kin" is a bit broader than blood relative, but not by much.  It definitely denotes a familial relationship. The very notion of elven tribes makes zero sense unless they are based on birth.  The entire existence of tribeless elves and the documentation around them supports this.  Tribeless elves are shiftless and paranoid, and trust no one.  We could definitely think of reasons why a tribe might want to increase its numbers and take in outsiders, but a tribeless elf should be viewed with suspicion for years at least, as all the requisite loyalty tests were carried out.  How else could the tribe possibly know that this tribeless isn't just pulling an elaborate swindle on them? (which they almost certainly are!)  Forming a tribe from tribeless elves would be a similar process, complicated by the greater number of relationships all of which are characterized fundamentally by distrust.   This might happen from time to time, but IC, most new tribes would probably be formed from families having many children.  Since PCs rarely raise families that turn into other PCs, this kind of situation won't be seen much in game.

Until that trust is established, any idea that they are "tribe" is pure delusion.  The tribeless knows it.  The tribe definitely knows it.  Without that complete mutual trust and reliance, they aren't tribe, and among elves that takes a long time to establish.  It could certainly happen, but it would be an even bigger deal than a human taking a life oath with their House.  Elf tribes aren't human clans that you can just "join up with" frivolously.  To the degree that coded tribes do accept outsiders, in most cases it seems more appropriate to consider outsiders employees of the tribe, like the distinction between an employee and family member in other clans.  I would be surprised if the roleplay of coded tribes did not already take this into account.  Elves aren't humans that just join and form groups willy-nilly.  If you don't have born tribemates, you don't have a tribe.  All you have is the arduous road of elven distrust and loyalty tests.

Consequence: Elf tribes need some way of populating their ranks of born members. For tribes that are supposed to be populous, you should probably be able to app in directly from character creation similar to how you might app a D-elf.  However, there's a certain overhead involved because players have to be made aware of who are the other PCs apping into their tribe. Presumably they have known one another for years. 

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on October 30, 2013, 06:20:40 AM
It could be handled the same way desert elves are, with a simple post on the clan discussion board.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Seeker on October 30, 2013, 09:41:49 AM
Why not allow the concept of a "default" tribe for PC c-elves in each starting location? 

Nothing coded, but just the simple fact that if you are playing a c-elf PC, any other c-elf PC you meet who isn't already in one of the fancier coded clans/tribes by default is probably your kin and tribemate.  Instant partner.

Players could decide not to have their new c-elf characters be part of this group if they wished, but I think it would go a long way to solving the issues of isolation and lack of tribe play described above.

Elves need backup.  They need the support of other the sharpears to keep things properly balanced.  This would do it.  Wouldn't take any coding or staffing energy, and it goes a long way to making c-elves playable provided more than one person is trying at a time to do it.


Seeker
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on October 30, 2013, 10:53:05 AM
I suppose a question I have is -- Do players enjoy playing city elves enough to warrant these kinds of changes? I played several city-elves in the past, both in the Labyrinth and Allanak, and didn't have much trouble playing to the documentation and having a great time. They are a difficult race to get into, but i'm unsure if broad changes to the race as a whole are going to solve the problem for some people. Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?
...

The goal for me is not just to fix a race so that a few people can play it and have fun with it (although that's a good secondary goal), the goal is to fix the race so that everyone in the game will have the experience of interacting with a group of racially separated, xenophobic, tight-knit, and above all numerically significant subset of Alanaki (and Tuluki) culture.

This. Very much this.

The thievery focused tribeless elf is the least interesting elf possible, not least because of the absence of other types of elves. What do you gain rolling up such an elf over rolling up a dwarf with the focus "steal more than anyone else ever!" who mentions that he likes to steal stuff by way of a conversational opener? Slightly different stats, some extra licence for creativity, a little racial pride disconnected to reality, and a healthy dose of paranoia. But hey, dwarves are more flexible - you can roll one with any focus you feel like. And humans are substantially more flexible than that.

The existence of elven tribes is what makes elves interesting. But, once you start looking at elves as tribes rather than lone wolves, it becomes apparent that elven behaviour will have to be tailored toward tribe survival. Elves are meant to be a smart race, and it absolutely makes sense that ensuring the tribe prospers comes above the short-term joy of getting away with a braggable quick scam. For a tribe to survive, it will need to play politics, acquire allies, do all the things that any group has to do to survive in a corrupt and hostile city. A single solitary tribeless elf is eminently untrustworthy, but an elven tribe is trustworthy insofar as you can depend on them to do what's in the tribe's best interests - which likely involves maintaining business relationships and keeping the powerful pacified. Those who actually have clout can deal with such tribes in safety, and find them useful. Those who can be messed about without consequence should be very careful indeed in cutting a big deal with a tribal elf, because if she can scam you now and take you for more than your future value to the tribe, she absolutely will, it's the perfect alignment of business and pleasure. Smaller deals are much less of a worry, because a repeat customer is coin in the tribe's pockets, and an elf puts tribal interests before self-gratification.

Because crossing a tribal elf is a dangerous thing to do unless you have serious backing - not just because they're numerous, but because their continued existence suggests that they are useful to someone who matters - being known to be a tribeless elf is a Bad Thing: all the fear and resentment people have against those threatening, alien sharps can be vented against you without fear of repercussions. Don't fuck with me, I have a tribe, I do, you've seen them around, they have a presence here, you've just missed them, fuck fuck fuck they aren't buying it. Because tribeless elves are powerless, you can threaten them mercilessly and hope their survival instinct trumps their desire to scam you. This is pretty much how elves already are at present, but without tribes, there's no opportunity for bluffing about tribal associations, no edge to the interaction born from humans finding an elf which is safe to torment because it's separated from its scary pack.

From a PC roleplay perspective, the urban elven tribe offers much to the social environment. It further reinforces social status by presenting a threat to the solitary human - if you don't have influence, you don't want them to pay you attention in case you become their plaything. A group of elves should be a fearful thing. Amos of Kadius probably shouldn't care about some individual rich PC tailor, but an elven tribe sees a walking moneybag that can be emptied consequence free. It creates whole new fronts of conflict. Internally, it functions very differently from a criminal organisation: you can trust your tribemates, they're not going to seek promotion by stepping into a dead man's shoes. It's probably a much more interesting group if it isn't explicitly criminal, in any case.

tl;dr version:
Urban tribal roleplay is the part of the game elves supply that can't easily be got elsewhere. Thievery not so much. The former deserves some love.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Jherlen on October 30, 2013, 10:57:49 AM
Why not allow the concept of a "default" tribe for PC c-elves in each starting location? 

Nothing coded, but just the simple fact that if you are playing a c-elf PC, any other c-elf PC you meet who isn't already in one of the fancier coded clans/tribes by default is probably your kin and tribemate.  Instant partner.

Players could decide not to have their new c-elf characters be part of this group if they wished, but I think it would go a long way to solving the issues of isolation and lack of tribe play described above.

Elves need backup.  They need the support of other the sharpears to keep things properly balanced.  This would do it.  Wouldn't take any coding or staffing energy, and it goes a long way to making c-elves playable provided more than one person is trying at a time to do it.


Seeker

+1 for sure.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 30, 2013, 12:36:54 PM
The fact that the city elf roleplay docs start with "for an elf, tribe is key," and yet non-rinthi Allanaki city elves are essentially told to get stuffed in this regard has long struck me as unfair and an incongruity between docs and gameworld. I intend to do something about it one of these days.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Vwest on November 01, 2013, 06:38:23 PM
edit: hit post instead of preview, will finish and respost

edit 2: thought I was in edit mode, made a double post.

This is the first image that showed up in google image search under 'allanak elves'

(http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/zurijeta/zurijeta1103/zurijeta110300022/9017218-sand-dunes-landscape-with-red-sky-in-background.jpg)

Google has it figured out.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Vwest on November 01, 2013, 09:07:27 PM
I don't understand why some of you are trying to bring Tuluki ideas about elves to Allanak.

I was thinking the same thing.

If they want a pseudo-isolated city-state in-game, complete with elf love, Professor X style Templars and assorted ridiculousness? Have fun, but keep it out of Allanak and the rest of the game, thanks.

Well any elf tries anything with a human and every other human in the area will be standing right next to that human even if he deserves a beating.

Absolutely.

My last Byn character spotted an elf starting up on a human, that conflict turned to brawling.

Her (and every other Byn in the place) stood up from the bar / table and proceed to beat that elf senseless, like it was the most natural thing in the world. Everyone sat back down after the necker was sent packing, had some drinks (paid for by a PC merchant who enjoyed the show) and in general even the people who had disagreements within the group were getting along much better after bonding over a hate crime.

It reminded me of a documentary on the KKK, where people from all walks who would never normally associate with each other become 'brothers in arms' in what they believe to be an eternal race war. These people, everyone from enlisted soldiers to doctors to burger flippers would show up to support members of their own chapter or make a scene at an opposing groups event, with just a text or a phone call.

No questions asked, no consideration to the potential risks -- they get the call, they throw on their silly hoods and represent, sometimes with violence.

That is really how I see the racial tension in Allanak... you have your humans and your elves, both living under the rule of a government that demands obedience and where disrespecting the law will often result in death or slavery. They aren't getting along because of some understanding or because they have become used to seeing the other species around, but because they fear the wrath of the authorities more than they hate each other. Survival trumps pride and prejudice, so it mostly just comes out as bitter animosity.

Mostly.

All it takes is someone throwing a rock or a punch and that simmering tension will become a battle line for as long as it takes for the Arm to show up and start kicking people in the spine for breaking the law.

With the two species having similar numbers, it's human adaptability that keeps them in power. Where humans can look past affiliations and interpersonal animosity (if only temporarily), shoulder up and keep the other races down, elves, the only race populous enough to mount any kind of real resistance to human domination, are hamstrung by their own inability to trust others beyond their tribe, save for the exceptionally rare outsider who has passed enough tests.

It's in the average humans benefit to side with another human against everything that is not considered human (elves, breeds, magickers, etc). If inbred rednecks can work out the whole 'united we stand' deal in between rounds of pegging their cousin, I'm comfortable enough saying that this is something every Zalanthan human would know and understand from a young age.

This is why I can't ever imagine there being a Tuluk-style fantasy syndicate in Allanak proper, or even a tribe with enough influence to even be considered a coded clan.

How does the elf survive being a Runner/recruit that needs to go outside? How does the Elf ever go from Mercenary/Trooper to Sergeant, while being nearly useless, and a burden on everyone he is around?

Who would ever hire that elf over the much more capable human?

I've made that argument in-game as a reason not to hire city elves into the Byn on a couple of different characters.

From an OOC perspective, I wouldn't hire an elf PC in-game for any role requiring travel for the simple fact it is a huge pain in the ass and an unnecessary RL time investment to tote along a token flavor role. I've seen one elven Trooper since I started playing and he never managed to join in on any contract that I'm aware of. He was relegated to 'well, we have the time, we'll take the runners out for a festival of scrab murder desert training. Bring the necker I guess.'.

It was a great character, I liked playing with him and the player did a great job being exactly what I expected from an elven warrior type... but in-game practicality pretty much left him in the compound unless we made a special outing to cater to his inability to travel more than half a dozen rooms before needing to rest for 3-5 RL minutes. If it was storming and someone forgot to put the tent back in the storeroom? He still got left in the compound.

I always felt bad that he spent the time to invest in an interesting character, only to have to spend it as a glorified sparring dummy while the rest of us were roaming the Known and seeing all the incredible things you really only see on Byn-brand suicide missions.

Unfortunately, I don't really see any viable changes that don't require serious documentation amendments for city elves and their place in Allanak's society / economy or a heavy-handed deus ex that kills off 95% of the elven population, at least making the current status quo a little easier to swallow.

I'd offer to play an elf if someone wanted to start a city tribe in-game and "be the change", but...

We currently don't allow tribe-calls via players. We had abuse of this in the past, which lead to family roles requiring previous approval. The terminology difference between tribe and family may seem blurry -- especially where elves are concerned. It's something we have discussed in the past, but this is current policy as it stands.

... that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

Be the change. Just not right now, I guess.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Italis on November 01, 2013, 10:56:57 PM
As this is the World Discussion forum, I was pointing out the way elves are perceived by everyone else, not making a blanket statement regarding elven roleplay.

However, the elven racial documentation states pretty clearly that their cultural bent towards thievery encompasses an extremely wide range of activities. So no, not every single elf in Allanak is running around picking every single pocket at every opportunity. There are elven mercenaries, traders, crafters, assassins, physicians, dung sweepers - pretty much all kinds of trades and lifestyles.

That doesn't change the widely held public perception that every elf will nick your purse as soon as look at you. Elves don't consider themselves to be career criminals by any means, but everyone else - and most especially Allanak law enforcement - considers every elf to be a criminal just by virtue of being an elf.

I'll also point out that there have been a number of elven Byn sergeants, and at least one lieutenant. House Kurac has also had elven sergeants. Just because it isn't easy doesn't mean it can't be done.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on November 01, 2013, 11:07:20 PM
It can be done, but it doesn't excuse the fact that southern city elves get kind of shafted in the tribe department. It's not reasonable to expect every elven PC to substitute the concept of tribal role play with "I can be a sergeant and boss roundears around for coins if I work hard enough."
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Riev on November 01, 2013, 11:13:08 PM
If an elf is tribeless, but still has the cultural bend to steal, pay less for everything, get in underneath the skin of every 'roundear' they meet.... Wouldn't that lend itself more to "Alright. Well. You don't have a family or a tribe to call your own. You ARE your tribe, and you are thus completely self-centered and arrogant. You are also an elf. Instead of stealing, you are going to be a mercenary, and fuck over -every- roundear trying to make a decent wage by undercutting his contracts, and then providing shoddy ass goods."


I mean. Thats just one idea. Not every elf is "STEALING" everything not nailed to the floor (... or ceiling...), but instead just trying to pull a fast one on everyone -not- in their clan. Does there NEED to be an Allanak-proper Celf clan? Clearly not, as they've gotten by before. Though I can understand the feeling of wanting to have tribal roleplay, with a tribally-bent race, without a coded tribe to really get your feet wet, on a 0-karma race. Frankly, the way I see the Militia in Allanak, if there WAS a decently sized elven clan in Allanak proper, I'd have their doors broken, off bending frames, from beating them down just to "see what they are up to" to the point where, shit, they'd -probably- go to the 'rinth for an "easier" time of it!
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on November 02, 2013, 03:18:52 AM
I'm a little confused by your post. To clarify, are you suggesting that there should or should not be coded a coded tribe option for city-elves as a 0-karma race? Keep in mind that humans are also a 0-karma race, and do not have tribes as one of the focal points of their existence, and have multiple coded tribal options.

I would argue that there does need to be a coded Allanak proper elf clan, or an elf clan open to southern Allanaki elves, because as is plainly obvious, they have very little PC representation in game. Yes, you can play an Allanaki elf and have fun and even be successful, but as people have pointed out before in this thread, you could play a dwarf with the focus to become the best thief in the Known and have pretty much the same experience (maybe with less social stigma but dwarf hate is beside the point).

While in a perfect world, I would like to see a tribe that allows southside elves as blood members, I'm okay with the Jaxa being the only elven clan in Allanak. I know interest in city elves is typically very low from the player base, and staff don't have the time or manpower to devote the effort to creating and running multiple clans for the handful of players who want to play city elves in accordance with their documentation as highly tribe-centric xenophobic thieving skinnies. But if that's the case, southern elves should have the option to join the Jaxa like any other unblooded affiliate (since we're already suspending our notion of elven trust and tribal nature by allowing unblooded Rinthi members in) without needing to jump through three hundred flaming hurdles.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on November 02, 2013, 10:30:13 AM
Frankly, the way I see the Militia in Allanak, if there WAS a decently sized elven clan in Allanak proper, I'd have their doors broken, off bending frames, from beating them down just to "see what they are up to" to the point where, shit, they'd -probably- go to the 'rinth for an "easier" time of it!

See, this is where your train of thought is lead astray. Does the militia want to get rid of elves being thieving old buggers? Certainly. There's just the one problem to that.

There are way, way, way more elves than there are soldiers in Allanak.

The militia can't go out and harass every elven family that gets too big, simply because there's too many of them, and no way to track them all down. This thread is full of people who want to compare elf hate to the kkk, who say that the Arm could easily deal with them, but this all fails to take into account that elves are strong. They are not without teeth, and they very much aren't above making people who mess with their own disappear when they cross the line too far. That elf you beat senseless in the gaj because you thought it'd be funny and there's no pc tribes anyway? Gameworld-wise, chances are high they'll be back with five bigger siblings to repay that beatdown in full next time you're alone at night.

Stop trying to think of elves as weak or underprivileged. No, they won't ever have high social status. No, elves aren't going to get the upper hand on city humanity at large at all. But this doesn't mean they're some kind of chew toy out there. Not by a long shot.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 02, 2013, 11:52:25 AM
Yep, which has always been a peeve of mine. No, you don't treat the elf with respect. No, you don't give him great prices or share information with him. Yeh, you avoid that one elf you don't like a lot. Yes, you talk absolutely dirty about that elf behind his back. Yeh, you sneer at him to his face whenever the chance comes along.

But when it comes to treating them like dung under your heel, nah, you don't do that. You treat him like dung, sure, but you don't put your heel on it unless you are connected, because a whole lot of other dungs are going to come oozing out and drown your stupid ass. You don't have to like elves, but you have to accept that they are citizens, just like Gemmers are, and you have to draw a line at completely making an public environment toxic to them.

In the case of Gemmers, you do it because they are scary and the Highlord says so. In the case of the elves, it's because sooner or later you're on a street by yourself, and skinnies like dark streets and they carry sharp shit ...
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Jherlen on November 02, 2013, 12:37:52 PM
See, this is where your train of thought is lead astray. Does the militia want to get rid of elves being thieving old buggers? Certainly. There's just the one problem to that.

There are way, way, way more elves than there are soldiers in Allanak.

The problem is that nearly all those elves are virtual. There are few southside elven NPCs, and none in areas that suggest a particular street or block is primarily elven, like you see in Tuluk. I think one of two things needs to happen: either bring the coded, tangible game in line with the "lots of elves" virtual reality, or revise the reality to say there are less elves. A good compromise might say there aren't all that many elves in the city proper, but quite a few in the Labyrinth.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 02, 2013, 12:39:09 PM
I agree - staff, are most Allanaki elves Northside? If not, then yes, we need more elven NPCs southside.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 02, 2013, 01:57:00 PM
My last Byn character spotted an elf starting up on a human, that conflict turned to brawling.

Her (and every other Byn in the place) stood up from the bar / table and proceed to beat that elf senseless, like it was the most natural thing in the world. Everyone sat back down after the necker was sent packing, had some drinks (paid for by a PC merchant who enjoyed the show) and in general even the people who had disagreements within the group were getting along much better after bonding over a hate crime.

It reminded me of a documentary on the KKK, where people from all walks who would never normally associate with each other become 'brothers in arms' in what they believe to be an eternal race war. These people, everyone from enlisted soldiers to doctors to burger flippers would show up to support members of their own chapter or make a scene at an opposing groups event, with just a text or a phone call.

This is kind of the core of the problem. It's the identical problem to a small-time group of hunters getting accorded the same kind of respect as a Merchant House because from a PC perspective they're better represented.

Virtually, the place you were in was probably packed with elves. For all you knew, there were a bunch from the same tribe as the elf starting shit who could've gone running and brought a few dozen more elves to the party. You were prospectively not starting some kind of beatdown, but a full-on scrap. But - in PC terms - there are no coded clans, and few PC elves. People don't need to think twice before they stand up and join the beating.

The KKK could get away with their heinous shit in rural areas, on a people beaten down from slavery. Drop them into an urban environment peopled by criminal and semi-criminal groups with strong family ties (compare the 'Ndrangheta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta)) and they'd rapidly be destroyed utterly.

And sure, the weakness of elves is that elven tribes don't trust each other, don't work together. If they did, they'd be a force in the city greater than any three Noble Houses combined. What this actually looks like is not a uniform powerlessness, but moderately-sized powerful groups at loggerheads with each other. The city isn't in thrall to the Elven Mafia because there are a hundred competing Mafias, each at war with all the others; they are ruled by humans through the old principle of divide and conquer. None of them individually are a match for the militia. But, if you're Amos the Grebber, this isn't a great consolation to you. Humanity isn't going to rally round to help you if you piss off one of those Mafias, particularly through stupidity, 'cos Tek don't care about you.

This isn't "Tuluki elf-loving". This is Nakkis ignoring the gritty, scary virtual elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 02, 2013, 02:34:06 PM
However, the elven racial documentation states pretty clearly that their cultural bent towards thievery encompasses an extremely wide range of activities. So no, not every single elf in Allanak is running around picking every single pocket at every opportunity. There are elven mercenaries, traders, crafters, assassins, physicians, dung sweepers - pretty much all kinds of trades and lifestyles.

That doesn't change the widely held public perception that every elf will nick your purse as soon as look at you. Elves don't consider themselves to be career criminals by any means, but everyone else - and most especially Allanak law enforcement - considers every elf to be a criminal just by virtue of being an elf.

This is where more thought is required.

These elven mercenaries, traders, crafters, etc are all making a living. At some point, someone human is exchanging money for elven services without being flagrantly swindled. Otherwise, we're trivially back to the case of 135,000 moochers on the population - it doesn't matter if some of them aren't stealing money directly if they only trade with elves who do, because that just means the elves who do have to steal enough to make up for them.

Clearly then there's some framework which enables trade. Whatever the general feeling is toward elves, it's not strong enough to prevent them being widely traded with or employed by humans. This is where I hesitate over the word "criminal", because humans clearly are going to elven tailors and elven watersellers and elven crafters, and not shunning them, even in the visible NPC world. I'd prefer the word "dishonest". In any case, there must exist conditions in which humans feel that trading with or employing an elf is not simply madness.

Now, my suggestion would be that much of the reason for this lies in tribal mechanisms, and that elven tribes are sufficiently aware of their own interests that it is possible to maintain long-term business relationships with them, that the shops they run and the services they provide see plenty of repeat customers. A tribe member compromising a steady revenue stream for a moment of gratification should be dealt with harshly. This also means that tribes can play useful roles as part of the city, and explains the lack of elven genocide.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Vwest on November 02, 2013, 10:20:39 PM
This is kind of the core of the problem. It's the identical problem to a small-time group of hunters getting accorded the same kind of respect as a Merchant House because from a PC perspective they're better represented.

I've run two groups of hunters / independents.

While both did very well and carried a lot of power both code-wise and connection wise, neither were ever (at least in Allanak) treated as comparable to a merchant House by anyone. I've seen what you're talking about happening with a couple of groups in Tuluk, but no matter how rich you are or how connected you get in Allanak, an independent hunter / merchant / grebber will never have power comparable to a merchant House.

I've never seen it happen and can think of only one semi-independent character currently (complicated) that has any kind of power to rival those in properly clanned organizations. That character is almost always a hair away from assassination because of it, too.

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Virtually, the place you were in was probably packed with elves. For all you knew, there were a bunch from the same tribe as the elf starting shit who could've gone running and brought a few dozen more elves to the party. You were prospectively not starting some kind of beatdown, but a full-on scrap. But - in PC terms - there are no coded clans, and few PC elves. People don't need to think twice before they stand up and join the beating.

Trying to claim vNPC is always a bad argument because it cuts both ways. If you claim virtual elves running off to get virtual tribe members, I claim virtual humans (in this case T'zai Byn mercenaries) running to get virtual squaddies. I'm confident that if you want to press the vNPC angle and we walk through the situation realistically, the elves are going to be the ones losing out -hard- for even attempting to stand up to humans, never mind that those humans happen to be the badass mercenaries that infest the only tavern elves are tolerated in southside Allanak.

Virtual tribe wants to start a grudge match with virtual mercenaries? Or just plain old virtual human families? Virtual humans put virtual coins in virtual Templars pocket and now that tribe of virtual elves, known for attempting to stand up to humans in the Gaj, are now all wanted for 'questioning' in the theft of Lady Borsail's +5 Bejeweled Pleasure Wand. You know all those elven thieves we feed to the anakore in the Arena? The ones we never seem to run out of, ever?

Those are your uppity virtual elves. Now you know where they come from.

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The KKK could get away with their heinous shit in rural areas, on a people beaten down from slavery. Drop them into an urban environment peopled by criminal and semi-criminal groups with strong family ties (compare the 'Ndrangheta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta)) and they'd rapidly be destroyed utterly.

You may want to look up the modern KKK and the list of tremendously powerful gangs associated with them, that exist in almost every major urban center and control a number of prisons in the United States.

Given these groups have been more successful in driving out foreign criminal elements (MS13, ALKN, etc.) than the LEAs, as well as openly going to war with various native gangs (Bloods, etc.), biker gangs (WoS,etc.) in their own territories, suggesting they're going to 'rapidly be destroyed utterly' is... silly, to say the least. It isn't relevant to the discussion of course, but still a pretty silly thing to say.

The point of using them as an example is that I feel that is the kind of person the average human being is on Zalanthan. Even with the power struggles and in-fighting, a human being believes they really are superior to the other races and the very idea of a lesser race getting uppity would be offensive and a reason to drop current squabbles to deal with it as soon as possible. There is a certain unity that every human in Allanak would naturally have with each other in the face of an elf (or other race) attempting to start trouble for them, no matter what tier of society they might reside.

It's a unity that elves, by their very documented nature, can never truly attain and as such, will always be at a general disadvantage when dealing with humans, especially on the front of aggression and conflict. The idea that elves are going to roll into the Gaj in force and try to openly take on a group of humans in defense of their own is absurd.

Even starting a non-violent feud with a group of humans, and we're just talking regular, run of the mill commoners, not even the lowest of affiliated humans, such as T'zai Byn mercenaries, would likely prove disastrous for the tribe. Every point of relevant authority in Allanak is human and every human in Allanak should have a personal interest in maintaining and advancing human domination.

It's why I believe the only coded tribe (technically tribes, I guess) and the only real point of elven power in-game for Allanak is in the 'rinth, where the government and the foundation of human power (politically, militarily and socially) is mostly absent. It, like the Pah and other 'free' areas of the Known, have a very might-makes-right theme because the laws of each group extends only as far as their blades can enforce it.

In the 'rinth, a tribe can etch out the kind of power and 'respect' you seem to feel they deserve. In Allanak proper, every aspect of civilized human society has everything to lose by allowing elves even a modicum of respect or influence.

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And sure, the weakness of elves is that elven tribes don't trust each other, don't work together. If they did, they'd be a force in the city greater than any three Noble Houses combined. What this actually looks like is not a uniform powerlessness, but moderately-sized powerful groups at loggerheads with each other. The city isn't in thrall to the Elven Mafia because there are a hundred competing Mafias, each at war with all the others; they are ruled by humans through the old principle of divide and conquer. None of them individually are a match for the militia. But, if you're Amos the Grebber, this isn't a great consolation to you. Humanity isn't going to rally round to help you if you piss off one of those Mafias, particularly through stupidity, 'cos Tek don't care about you.

1) No, they wouldn't. That's ridiculous, even by GDB standards.
2) There would never be enough tolerance for elves to attain 'mafia' level power in Allanak proper. Even 'gang' level power would result in the Arm coming down on them with wrath of a literal angry human God-King.
3) Every human with an ounce of common sense would know it's in their own best interest to keep elves down. Would they scream 'draw steel, bitch!' and throw themselves into a hopeless fight? No, because survival is the name of the game in Zalanthas. Are they going to throw rocks at the dumb-as-bricks necker along with everyone else? You bet and it's reflected by the attitudes of PCs all the way up to Templars in-game.

I've even seen the NPCs in the Gaj animated, along with room echos, to represent humans getting angry at an elf who insisted on spitting on people and talking about elven superiority, so I'd be hard pressed to hear an argument that this is exclusively a player-represented state of affairs.

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This isn't "Tuluki elf-loving". This is Nakkis ignoring the gritty, scary virtual elves.

The idea of Allanak ever tolerating elves beyond the bottom of society, right next to cockroaches and gemmers, reeks being the run-off of what is going on in Tuluk. In Allanak they're seen as nothing but thieves, scum, trash and pests of no redeeming value and this has been asserted by members of the staff in this very thread. There is no real reason for the average commoner to have any kind of respect or fear or elves, just like they have no real reason to respect or fear 'rinth rats.

Elves are not gemmers, there is no inherent fear amongst the commoner population towards elves. They're tall, gangly and the slime of society, not shadowy figures cloaked in mystery and danger (though this is what 99% of the PC elves in Allanak try to be for some reason). If an elf doesn't get out of your way, push him out of the way. If he falls down in front of you? Walk right over him, just like the person behind you will do.

I'm not sure why you think elves, virtual or otherwise, should be naturally scary to anyone.

I'd pose two really basic questions:

What is your ideal situation for city elves in Allanak? For PCs, for the virtual world, for how players should perceive it, what you'd like the documents to outline.

Why do you feel elves should be scary? I'm just baffled. Completely.

I agree with a lot of what you've posted, but at the same time I'm not... entirely... sure... what you're after.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on November 02, 2013, 11:09:17 PM
As a human, I would not feel particularly at risk if I were being racist toward an elf in the Gaj, for example.

If I were, say... in front of a tenement known to be populated primarily by elven families or an alley frequented by elves or in an elven merchant's tent, I would perhaps think twice about being blatantly racist, not because I am afraid of the individual elf, but because I am afraid of being caught away from home ground and outnumbered by the lawless thieving desperate scum, who while inherently inferior, are possessed of no morals or honor or sense of decency.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on November 03, 2013, 01:30:44 AM
Lol, elves

That is all
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on November 03, 2013, 01:55:02 AM
Thank you for that intelligent and thoughtful contribution to the thread.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Mr.B on November 03, 2013, 07:48:18 AM
I don't always post about elves, but when I do, I don't expect anyone to agree. Here's the problems I see with the c-elf race.

-They can't worth a shit outside of cities, which is a limiting factor to their ease of play outside of cities. I think they can afford to get the ability to run in the desert and not break the precious "game balance" we have going on. This should be done, imho.
-To properly roleplay an elf, they need to exibit tribe mentality. This means they need a tribe/family to call their own. If it were up to me, I would force c-elf players to play in the Jaxa or some other brand spanking new families that are geared toward freedom of play with some guidelines for not causing the Templarate to steamroll the entire family if this is a Allanak proper based family.
-Players need to understand that just because the c-elf can steal i, it doesn't mean they have to be a career criminal thiefly bastard. You can go hard-mode and be a legitimate at whatever you choose, just make sure you appreciate the artform, because those real career criminal thiefly bastard cousins/uncles/nephews/mothers, of yours were totally badass.
 
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 03, 2013, 10:26:38 AM
Virtual tribe wants to start a grudge match with virtual mercenaries? Or just plain old virtual human families? Virtual humans put virtual coins in virtual Templars pocket and now that tribe of virtual elves, known for attempting to stand up to humans in the Gaj, are now all wanted for 'questioning' in the theft of Lady Borsail's +5 Bejeweled Pleasure Wand. You know all those elven thieves we feed to the anakore in the Arena? The ones we never seem to run out of, ever?

The problem is: there are a lot of them, and they are useful to someone powerful. The militia aren't going to intervene to save your sorry ass, because those elves are also putting coin in the pockets of templars and other powerful people, and more of it than your mercenary or your grebber is. If they were merely a blight on the city, they'd have been wiped out long ago.

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The KKK could get away with their heinous shit in rural areas, on a people beaten down from slavery. Drop them into an urban environment peopled by criminal and semi-criminal groups with strong family ties (compare the 'Ndrangheta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta)) and they'd rapidly be destroyed utterly.

You may want to look up the modern KKK and the list of tremendously powerful gangs associated with them, that exist in almost every major urban center and control a number of prisons in the United States.

You're going to have to give me some references here 'cos Wikipedia's got nothing apart from mentioning their slow decline. Google on KKK and organised crime's bringing up little. Some hunting round shows the Aryan Brotherhood as a player, but they don't seem to be a major player - the FBI, over here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40525.pdf (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40525.pdf) are substantially more concerned with the Russian mafia, La Cosa Nostra, etc. In short, I think you're wildly overstating your case.

A reference I can give you is to what happened when the Silver Shirts and Brown Shirts - anti-Semitic Nazi organisations - ran into the Jewish gangsters of Minneapolis and New York.
http://www.solveisraelsproblems.com/american-jewish-mobsters-of-the-1920s/ (http://www.solveisraelsproblems.com/american-jewish-mobsters-of-the-1920s/)

The point of using them as an example is that I feel that is the kind of person the average human being is on Zalanthan. Even with the power struggles and in-fighting, a human being believes they really are superior to the other races and the very idea of a lesser race getting uppity would be offensive and a reason to drop current squabbles to deal with it as soon as possible. There is a certain unity that every human in Allanak would naturally have with each other in the face of an elf (or other race) attempting to start trouble for them, no matter what tier of society they might reside.

I don't see this unity. I don't see humans willing to risk death or injury to protect other humans. It's a racial chivalry that's neither documented nor one I've seen much sign of in game. Humans have their own divisions. To take it at the simplest level, a Nakki isn't going to come to the defence of a Tuluki who's pushing a Nakki elf too far.

Elves cannot transcend their tribal boundaries to form large organisations or united armies. Humans can do this, but are nonetheless split into their own factions.

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And sure, the weakness of elves is that elven tribes don't trust each other, don't work together. If they did, they'd be a force in the city greater than any three Noble Houses combined. What this actually looks like is not a uniform powerlessness, but moderately-sized powerful groups at loggerheads with each other. The city isn't in thrall to the Elven Mafia because there are a hundred competing Mafias, each at war with all the others; they are ruled by humans through the old principle of divide and conquer. None of them individually are a match for the militia. But, if you're Amos the Grebber, this isn't a great consolation to you. Humanity isn't going to rally round to help you if you piss off one of those Mafias, particularly through stupidity, 'cos Tek don't care about you.

1) No, they wouldn't. That's ridiculous, even by GDB standards.

There are 135,500 free elves in Nak, and 150,000 free humans. I am if anything understating my case. If we had one tribe of 135,500 elves, they would be massively more powerful - by orders of magnitude - than any human organisation through simple force of numbers and being far more united than the humans are. If they raised an army, it would exceed everyone the Noble Houses combined could raise in numbers, quite possibly by a factor of ten. This is power. If there were a patchwork of tribes willing to work together, they might not have quite the same unity, but the sheer numbers would still make them a force to be reckoned with.

The problem - the ongoing, constant problem - is people looking at the small number of city elf PCs and basing anything meaningful off that.

2) There would never be enough tolerance for elves to attain 'mafia' level power in Allanak proper. Even 'gang' level power would result in the Arm coming down on them with wrath of a literal angry human God-King.

There are too many elves for this to work. There's an elf for every free human in Nak. The last thing the militia wants to do is make it elf vs human and give the tribes a chance to unite. They'd be overrun. The strength they have is in playing divide and conquer - they certainly don't have the resource to go in hard against every elven threat.

More than this, the economy runs on them - has to run on them, because of their numbers. This means groups of elves with substantial economic clout, likely some of them playing part of the supply chain of major Houses.

I've even seen the NPCs in the Gaj animated, along with room echos, to represent humans getting angry at an elf who insisted on spitting on people and talking about elven superiority, so I'd be hard pressed to hear an argument that this is exclusively a player-represented state of affairs.

Well, similarly, a small group of elves getting humans to unite against them isn't going to end well for the elves. If they clearly provoked matters and are reaping just desserts, the tribes that hate their tribe are just going to snigger and move on.

The idea of Allanak ever tolerating elves beyond the bottom of society, right next to cockroaches and gemmers, reeks being the run-off of what is going on in Tuluk. In Allanak they're seen as nothing but thieves, scum, trash and pests of no redeeming value and this has been asserted by members of the staff in this very thread. There is no real reason for the average commoner to have any kind of respect or fear or elves, just like they have no real reason to respect or fear 'rinth rats.

Elves are not gemmers, there is no inherent fear amongst the commoner population towards elves. They're tall, gangly and the slime of society, not shadowy figures cloaked in mystery and danger (though this is what 99% of the PC elves in Allanak try to be for some reason). If an elf doesn't get out of your way, push him out of the way. If he falls down in front of you? Walk right over him, just like the person behind you will do.

I'm not sure why you think elves, virtual or otherwise, should be naturally scary to anyone.

Because of their numbers, almost equivalent to humans. Because most of them run in tribes of hundreds or more - they are connected, in a way Amos the grebber is not and will never be. Their sole weakness is that tribes of elves see other tribes of elves as the main competition, not allies, and so they can be divided against each other.

They are scary because - to Amos the grebber - they are vastly more powerful than he is, and alien, and happy to cause him loss for their own amusement. They are more powerfully connected not just because their tribal network is larger than Amos' circle of friends, but because they trade as a tribe with important people, and are necessary to them. A tribe crossing a Noble House or Merchant House will certainly get slapped down, but a tribe crossing Amos? Nobody cares if an elf lifts Amos' purse. He isn't important.

I'd pose two really basic questions:

What is your ideal situation for city elves in Allanak? For PCs, for the virtual world, for how players should perceive it, what you'd like the documents to outline.

Why do you feel elves should be scary? I'm just baffled. Completely.

I agree with a lot of what you've posted, but at the same time I'm not... entirely... sure... what you're after.

I want elves to make sense. The population described by the staff on the GDB over the years is a massive part of the city.

Right now, if there were elven PCs present in the game of almost equal number to human PCs, and most of those PCs belonged to tribes, were connected, roleplay-wise we'd rapidly adjust to something that made sense. It would swiftly become apparent that messing with a tribe would lead to repercussions you'd be able to avoid only through being better connected than they were. The tribeless elf would be a football to be kicked by any, but the tribed elf would not.

The problem is that players of free humans act as if they were a huge majority in the city. They aren't. They've a slender majority only, and they aren't tribal the way elves are, they don't jump to the defence of their human brothers at great personal risk. While their largest factions are larger than the largest elven factions and mostly willing to work together where the elves squabble, these factions are not in any position where it's remotely safe to give elven tribes a reason to unite together. If anything, I imagine they'd engineer the downfall of an elven tribe not by sending the militia in, but by creating an opening for the tribe's elven enemies to destroy them.

So - we could slash elven numbers to the point that it genuinely was safe to hound them, to the point that our current RP kind of makes sense. Half-elves would be vanishingly uncommon as a result, though, and there'd be no major reason for elves not to be genocided out of the city. I think also this route lacks richness.

If we keep the elven population as massive as it's meant to be, we need some structures that indicate the kind of influence a huge minority with close tribal ties would actually wield. I'd like to see an actual Southside tribe, with some sensible economic niche, which players could play in. I think much of the realism I've discussed would fall out naturally from having a tribe in game. Ideal, if we had the numbers, would be to have a pair of elven tribes competing with and hating each other.

I'd like the docs to explore why elves are tolerated in the city - how they provide enough of the economy that they haven't been run off as a bunch of moochers, how they are kept in check when numerically they're such a massive percentage of the city. I'd like them to look at elves primarily through a tribal lens, and consider what behaviour putting tribal interests first is likely to lead to (i.e. it isn't going to be practical just to try and scam everything you see).
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Harmless on November 03, 2013, 12:18:59 PM
alright. Think about it. half-elves exist because elves exist. elves exist because half-elves exist. obviously some people be f****** dem elves. And they are so, so fuckable. they aren't getting genocided because some humans really like them.

you can also add the argument that people have needs. Spice. other contraband. Eventually, you're going to need to go to an elf. this goes to another issue, that the dark side of allanak life is rarely portrayed, out of fear for survival. in general, being a city elfis not easy. being an Allanaki addicted to spice is not easy either. count me among those in this thread who have said, I -have- played that, & I have enjoyed it. But, like them, I may not decide to do it again, unless something were to tempt me..

finally, to the legal side of things that elves can do. they're skinny, they need less food. For menial work, this is just more efficient. people are starving everywhere, there are no good people to do work. If you need something done badly, you may just use an elf.

I agree with the notion to improve c-Elven stamina. even just a tiny bit. if anything, it would keep those desert elf bastards from calling my celves weaklegs all the time, which has always felt like I may as well have rolled a half-elf.

Posted with my phone.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Twilight on November 03, 2013, 12:38:36 PM
I've wished for awhile now that the "shadowy alleyways" of Allanak proper were filled out with a couple of elven shops and whatnot, trading in lower quality goods maybe.  Trading in the proper city, but in places that might  not be as well patroled, not as desireable, as other parts of town.

Now, if you made a couple of shops with backrooms, and players could start in the tribe of those shops elves and use the backroom, perhaps have different selling/buying priveleges with the shopkeeper, you would have the start of something interesting.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on November 03, 2013, 01:21:32 PM
I just want to "like" Quirk's excellent post. He said everything I always thought but in a coherent, argumented way. Thumbs up
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on November 03, 2013, 01:32:23 PM
I just want to "like" Quirk's excellent post. He said everything I always thought but in a coherent, argumented way. Thumbs up

Yep, me too. Well worth reading the whole thing.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Mr.B on November 03, 2013, 02:44:33 PM
Quirk's walls of text read well, but the idea of elven tribes/families banding together against those oppressive humans in some kind of race war is such a silly idea. As numerous and as integral to the city as they are, the Templarate/Highlord have the power to keep them in check. Most Elves aren't stupid and aren't prone to committing their entire families/tribes to hopeless fights or even costly ones, therefore they eke out an existence however they can.

I really don't see the huge virtual deal. Tribes have documentation that further establishes their place in the world, their cultural notes, customs, motivations, history, and sometimes connections. I see a lot of complaining about the broad guideline given by the racial documentation, and that it isn't specific enough to explain the place elves have in Allanak. This is what tribal/family documentation is for.

This is why I contend the elven tribe/family must be a part of the non-virtual world if at all possible for the player. This sits right above running in the defining feature of elven roleplay imho.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Harmless on November 03, 2013, 04:05:23 PM
Err, I just realized Mr. B is actually in agreement. Edited.

Also, I edited out the rest of my post because I think I don't know what I'm talking about.

+1 to ideas of adding families and vNPC support for "tribeless" celves. +1 to reducing the amount of imm-meddling that's required to exist happily as a celf. Those are my thoughts.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 03, 2013, 04:47:59 PM
Quirk's walls of text read well, but the idea of elven tribes/families banding together against those oppressive humans in some kind of race war is such a silly idea. As numerous and as integral to the city as they are, the Templarate/Highlord have the power to keep them in check. Most Elves aren't stupid and aren't prone to committing their entire families/tribes to hopeless fights or even costly ones, therefore they eke out an existence however they can.

Well, the point I was making there is that there are a ton of elves in the city. Many more elves than militia. The militia alone certainly do not have the power to keep them in check were it to come to a straight-up fight; the templarate and Highlord may, but it would be a messy business. On the whole it seems better strategy to keep the elves divided and at one another throats than it does to rile them up by trying to defend every idiot who crosses an elven tribe.

I really don't see the huge virtual deal. Tribes have documentation that further establishes their place in the world, their cultural notes, customs, motivations, history, and sometimes connections. I see a lot of complaining about the broad guideline given by the racial documentation, and that it isn't specific enough to explain the place elves have in Allanak. This is what tribal/family documentation is for.

Well, the virtual deal is that a relatively small proportion of the urban PC population is elven, but virtually, almost half the population that PCs are drawn from (free commoners) should be elven. More than that, the majority of these are in tribes.

People treat elves as though they were a small, downtrodden underclass without resources, because when the PC population is a handful of tribeless elves, there are no consequences for this. If the PC population reflected the virtual population, this would soon stop.

This is why I contend the elven tribe/family must be a part of the non-virtual world if at all possible for the player. This sits right above running in the defining feature of elven roleplay imho.

Despite the above, it seems we're deeply in agreement on this point anyway.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 03, 2013, 05:37:17 PM
I'm going to do a recap post, in the hope of laying out things in such a way I don't need to answer them again.

Why haven't elves been genocided out of Nak already?

Because there are heaps and heaps of them.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915)

This isn't a minority that can be easily crushed. If elves had to fight for the survival of their species, they'd be able to make a bloody fight of it. They're smarter than humans and very numerous.

They are however badly divided. Tribes may well distrust each other worse than they distrust the humans. This saps their power ferociously. No individual elven tribe should be able to stand against the militia or any great House.

(Note that this doesn't give carte blanche for Recruit Malik to kill an elf who's annoyed him - pissing off an individual tribe still potentially produces hundreds of angry elves scheming to get even with a rich elven inventiveness, and no organisation is going to be happy with a recruit who brings in that much trouble.)

How do they feed themselves?

A few of them are career criminals, but the city obviously can't support that as a lifestyle for the majority. Most work and trade. This is reflected in the NPC life of the city. Evidently some mechanisms exist which make this situation more or less stable; they're producing some goods the city needs at prices the city is willing to pay.

Assuming elves work together as a tribe, and have tribal businesses, then there's an easy mechanism for stable business relationships: long term tribal interests win over braggable feats of theft which lose customers.

(Note an organisation of a few hundred people employed in the same business will have influence corresponding to their numbers and their wealth. If our legal and above board elven tribe is emptying chamberpots and cleaning latrines over part of the city, and a couple of drunken mercenaries decide for a laugh to go about disrupting their work, templars are unlikely to comment openly on the disappearance of the latter; the tribe has coin that can be extorted to keep things quiet, and the mercenaries are indirectly working against the humans who rely on the tribe's services.)

What's the problem?

Problem 1: Elves are not powerless
What we see in game in Nak are tribeless elven PCs who are unconnected and are effectively powerless. In Tuluk, where there is an actual coded tribe to contend with, PC roleplay has had to accomodate the simple fact that large groups of closely connected people are far from powerless, even members of a poor underclass. This is not a flaw in Tuluki RP; the failure to account for the existence of elves who do not fit the tribeless PC model is a flaw in Nakki RP.

If the sheer numbers of elves, and their networks of connections, were reflected better, it would be apparent that elves are not merely despised, like half-breeds, but feared as the groups of xenophobic close-knit bastards they are.

Problem 2: People trade with elves
Some mechanism exists by which people are routinely doing business with elves. If they weren't, elves wouldn't be eating. This mechanism doesn't seem to be very well established in PC land.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Vwest on November 03, 2013, 05:55:27 PM
The problem is: there are a lot of them, and they are useful to someone powerful. The militia aren't going to intervene to save your sorry ass, because those elves are also putting coin in the pockets of templars and other powerful people, and more of it than your mercenary or your grebber is. If they were merely a blight on the city, they'd have been wiped out long ago.

All of this is assuming you have a race of elven supermen; they make more coin, they pay more bribes, they're more useful to Templars and have more powerful connections than the human counterpart. This is a false assumption, across the board.

Humans are better paid because they're human, they're able to get more for less in the bribe department because they're human and they're going to have a much easier time with Templars and other powerful points of authority because they're all human. A human is just as capable in every single regard as elves; fighting, crafting, sneaking, stealing, etc.

Spies? Point goes to human when the most important information is almost always held by humans of influence in Allanak. Hunters? Mounts give humans the win, both virtually. Do I need to keep going? Where is this elven superiority that makes them so much more useful than a human? They can get 'shady deals'? So can the Guild, who are predominately human and well established with all tiers of Allanaki society.

What use is a shifty elf when you have the human equivalent available? Who in power would choose to deal with elves over humans without exceptional circumstances?

I want to give elves the 'well, they're the best thieves / crooks' but all of the best criminals I've interacted with have been humans or breeds and since vNPCs aren't subject to stat rolls and skill limitations, elven +agi stat perks don't really factor in. There is nothing that I recall in the documentation about elves being superior thieves / spies / swindlers, only that they venerate and aspire to thievery.

Soldiers in the Arm are more than happy to take bribes and since they're all human (or half-giant), they're by nature going to be more inclined to take a handful of human coins instead of dirty necker coins. Or take both and side with the human anyway. A lot of it boils down to the individual soldier, but I've never seen a soldier (or Templar) in Allanak take the side of a non-human. That isn't to say it doesn't happen, just that it would be another exceptional situation, rather than 'templars prefer dealing with elves because elves mysteriously have a lot of money' as your post implied.

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You're going to have to give me some references here 'cos Wikipedia's got nothing apart from mentioning their slow decline.

This is turning into a wall of text.

I should really have been more specific instead of just referencing "KKK", since you're technically right in that the old school brand of hoodied klanners is definitely in it's twilight. There are various gangs (HA, for example), prison gangs, street gangs and similar groups that are effectively no different than the KKK, just going by different 'brands'. The white power movement would have been a better way to explain it.

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I don't see this unity. I don't see humans willing to risk death or injury to protect other humans. It's a racial chivalry that's neither documented nor one I've seen much sign of in game. Humans have their own divisions. To take it at the simplest level, a Nakki isn't going to come to the defence of a Tuluki who's pushing a Nakki elf too far.

I see it all the time, I've had PCs I've never seen step up and back my characters in disputes with other races. I've had PCs from organizations mine were fundamentally opposed to assist mine in combat against an assassination attempt, simply because they wanted the 'lessers' in question to fail. Because they're lessers and once they were put down, we went right back to being opposed to each other.

It has nothing to do with chivalry or honorable intentions, it's a survival mechanism; we're human and we're superior, it's in my personal and direct benefit to keep the other races in their place. There's a crowd forming to lynch some elves? I'm all in. A couple few people heard that elf raped a human girl? I'll hold the left arm, you get the right, we'll fix that necker good and proper.

It's no different than our world, where people are naturally inclined to side with their own, be it religion, race, association, family, except that in Zalanthas the stakes are much higher due to the difficulty of survival. It's often life or death and it's something that most people would understand. It's another reason beyond the authorities why the racial tension and distrust generally remains at animosity instead of open hostility and violence.

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Elves cannot transcend their tribal boundaries to form large organisations or united armies. Humans can do this, but are nonetheless split into their own factions.

Split into factions, but time and again you will see Aides, soldiers, servants, you name it, from different Houses, even Houses that have a spat in progress, all temporarily turn on an offending lesser race if they happen to slight someone, or just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. A certain Amber was very good at making non-humans the target of human ridicule and it was great.

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There are 135,500 free elves in Nak, and 150,000 free humans. I am if anything understating my case. If we had one tribe of 135,500 elves, they would be massively more powerful - by orders of magnitude - than any human organisation through simple force of numbers and being far more united than the humans are. If they raised an army, it would exceed everyone the Noble Houses combined could raise in numbers, quite possibly by a factor of ten. This is power. If there were a patchwork of tribes willing to work together, they might not have quite the same unity, but the sheer numbers would still make them a force to be reckoned with.

Again, you're assuming elven supermen who leap over tall buildings and slay soldiers with a single stab.

The relatively small number of Templars in the city control a much larger army of (trained, disciplined) soldiers because opposing them means facing down the magickal wrath of the most powerful magickal entity that has (as far as most know) ever existed, the Highlord. The sheer volume of untrained, undisciplined elves would be daunting only in so far as the time and logistics required to haul all of the bodies out of the city and clean up the mess of full on genocide.

There isn't even the angle of them forming some kind of super mafia because... they're elves in a human society. Every Noble House, the senate, the Templarate, everyone from commoner to black robed Templar would be on that level of threat with immediate and deadly intentions. The entire social, military and political structure of the oldest power in the Known is designed to keep them there and backing them up is an immortal power that can transfer entire land masses from one end of the world to the other.

Oh, they also have legions of enslaved abominations who have no choice but to serve to the death with all their magickal horror.

Sorry, but even with those numbers, all they'd have the power to do is incite the largest display of genocide in history.

Human domination, interrupted only once by the arrival of a deus ex dragona and resumed upon it's departure.

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There are too many elves for this to work. There's an elf for every free human in Nak. The last thing the militia wants to do is make it elf vs human and give the tribes a chance to unite. They'd be overrun. The strength they have is in playing divide and conquer - they certainly don't have the resource to go in hard against every elven threat.

Humans still boast the larger numbers, superior infrastructure can more reliably unite and press other lesser races into service (dwarves, breeds, half-giants, muls) - because they're humans and the safe bet, where as elves are all thieving, lying, backstabbing scum as far as the average person is concerned.

Bloody? Yes. Elves all but vanishing from the city? Yes. Victory for the Highlord? Yes.

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More than this, the economy runs on them - has to run on them, because of their numbers. This means groups of elves with substantial economic clout, likely some of them playing part of the supply chain of major Houses.

I'm not seeing a lot of documentation suggesting the economy is dependent on elves, other than they are often used as slaves.

One of the points in the thread is the inconsistency of the documentation on how / where elves fit into the economic machine (unless I'm misunderstanding something), so I'm not seeing how you can take something up for dispute and pose it as a fact. While I do agree they are and should be one of the many cogs that keep the economy of Allanak in motion, I'm not really confident enough in the where and how to consider using it for or against.

Given that the Allanak economy IS, by the documentation, often in flux with booms and depressions common, even if elves are as critically ingrained into the economy, them suddenly disappearing would just be another temporary (if severe) fluctuation. In the aftermath, there are all those jobs now available to be taken up by humans in need of work, so I don't see it having an age-long effect.

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Because of their numbers, almost equivalent to humans. Because most of them run in tribes of hundreds or more - they are connected, in a way Amos the grebber is not and will never be. Their sole weakness is that tribes of elves see other tribes of elves as the main competition, not allies, and so they can be divided against each other.

They are scary because - to Amos the grebber - they are vastly more powerful than he is, and alien, and happy to cause him loss for their own amusement. They are more powerfully connected not just because their tribal network is larger than Amos' circle of friends, but because they trade as a tribe with important people, and are necessary to them. A tribe crossing a Noble House or Merchant House will certainly get slapped down, but a tribe crossing Amos? Nobody cares if an elf lifts Amos' purse. He isn't important.

Again, you're making assumptions in favor of your elven supermen, colossal tribes with swathes of connections and wealth.

I don't see it in the documentation, I don't see it in the game and based on the existing documentation, I can't see any of that happening under the authoritarian gaze of the humans in power. If elven tribes were to have that level of connections, influence and power due to numbers (of which humans still have more), you can be sure that groups of humans would begin forming to rival that power.

Suggesting elves could form huge tribes and strike constant fear into every 'Amos' as you put it, without any kind of opposition from a race that believes to their core they are superior and the rightful citizens of the city... I think you're kind of reaching here.

The powers that be exist to perpetuate themselves; human from every walk have a reason to keep hold of the upper hand.

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I want elves to make sense. The population described by the staff on the GDB over the years is a massive part of the city.

Right now, if there were elven PCs present in the game of almost equal number to human PCs, and most of those PCs belonged to tribes, were connected, roleplay-wise we'd rapidly adjust to something that made sense. It would swiftly become apparent that messing with a tribe would lead to repercussions you'd be able to avoid only through being better connected than they were. The tribeless elf would be a football to be kicked by any, but the tribed elf would not.

The problem is that players of free humans act as if they were a huge majority in the city. They aren't. They've a slender majority only, and they aren't tribal the way elves are, they don't jump to the defence of their human brothers at great personal risk. While their largest factions are larger than the largest elven factions and mostly willing to work together where the elves squabble, these factions are not in any position where it's remotely safe to give elven tribes a reason to unite together. If anything, I imagine they'd engineer the downfall of an elven tribe not by sending the militia in, but by creating an opening for the tribe's elven enemies to destroy them.

So - we could slash elven numbers to the point that it genuinely was safe to hound them, to the point that our current RP kind of makes sense. Half-elves would be vanishingly uncommon as a result, though, and there'd be no major reason for elves not to be genocided out of the city. I think also this route lacks richness.

If we keep the elven population as massive as it's meant to be, we need some structures that indicate the kind of influence a huge minority with close tribal ties would actually wield. I'd like to see an actual Southside tribe, with some sensible economic niche, which players could play in. I think much of the realism I've discussed would fall out naturally from having a tribe in game. Ideal, if we had the numbers, would be to have a pair of elven tribes competing with and hating each other.

I'd like the docs to explore why elves are tolerated in the city - how they provide enough of the economy that they haven't been run off as a bunch of moochers, how they are kept in check when numerically they're such a massive percentage of the city. I'd like them to look at elves primarily through a tribal lens, and consider what behaviour putting tribal interests first is likely to lead to (i.e. it isn't going to be practical just to try and scam everything you see).

A lot of that already exists in Tuluk, where society would allow it - and some of the reasons it's there are too sensitive for the forums, unfortunately.

Those reasons don't really exist in Allanak and while I'm willing to accept that a large part of that might be how limited related documentation is, I'm not seeing how a society like the one in Allanak would ever come to tolerate packs of 'hundreds' strong elves infiltrating a very prideful human city and having the kind of power you're suggesting they should have. I would suggest that even from an exclusively playability point of view, having a coded clan everyone can opt into upon creation is going to immediately grant excessive power right out of the gate.

You would have elven PCs join, have access to gear, allies, support and influence... and I'm sure you can imagine how quickly that could (and likely would) turn ridiculous and we're right back to what happened previously that caused the staff to disallow tribe calls full stop.

If it's a special app / role call clan to control abuse potential... it isn't really going to address the general issue with city elves in Allanak.

I don't really have a solution to the problem though, so all I can really do is pick away at your points until something starts to take shape.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 03, 2013, 07:42:55 PM
Some possible solutions:

Keep the current RP, cut the virtual population:

We could retcon elven population to a tenth or less of what it is now. Elven tribes could be banished to the 'Rinth. The Southside could be populated by a few tribeless elves only. Elves could be routinely treated as criminals.

Advantages:
Current PC RP habits would align again with the virtual world.
If elven tribes chiefly lived by theft and plunder, no real work would need to be done to the elven roleplay docs.

Consequences:
Half-elves might need some extra retcon work done to prevent them from becoming very rare.
There'd be nothing much to prevent templars from declaring war on elven scum and practically wiping them from the parts of Nak they control.

Concerns:
This model, as seen to date, leaves elves with a socially stunted and inflexible role.

The well connected and rapacious model:

Elves are numerous and useful. Larger tribes fill a critical place in the city's economy. They deal with the powers of the City, and deal more or less honestly, because that's the only way to ensure tribe survival.

The powers of the City therefore will tolerate only limited harassment of the tribes that contribute to their supply chains or keep vital infrastructure going, and will look the other way or even offer assistance when that tribe enters conflict with some group of low-status humans or another tribe.

This makes them an unholy terror to anyone who doesn't have enough power and status to force them to play nice. While they are bound to some degree by the templarate's desire for a peaceful city, and the necessity of not uniting large numbers of humans against them, getting their attention is a Bad Thing. They're hated with reason as the bullies they are, and the fear and resentment associated with them trickles down to be repaid to tribeless elves in alleys with human boots.

Advantages:
The PC and virtual world would square more closely - we know why elves are tolerated, and how they impact the economy - and PC RP habits would adjust.
Elven tribes would have a political place and there would be good reasons for interaction with existing clans.
There'd be new sources of conflict for human independents.

Consequences:
The docs would need a little filling out to explain how elves made a living and were tolerated in the city.

Concerns:
Tensions would need carefully managed. If Amos the grebber, favourite elven plaything, suddenly becomes Aide Amos of Oash, it's important that the conflict doesn't become an Oash vs tribe one.

The productive underclass model:

The rich and powerful don't deal with elven tribes. Instead, they fill bargain basement niches: weapons cheaper than Salarr, clothing cheaper than Kadius. People grumble about the quality of elven goods, but the poorer classes buy them anyway. Most elves aren't complete swindlers, but more dodgy salesmen selling items which aren't high quality, but are good enough.

Some tribes are relatively wealthy, and this buys them some leverage with the militia and templarate, but it's limited. Tribal elves largely have to curb their thieving instincts, but the elven reputation is under constant assault from the tribeless and outlaw tribes who won't or can't.

Business competition between tribes is brutal, and the templarate mostly looks the other way, figuring a few dead elves doesn't matter one way or another.

Advantages:
PC and virtual world in alignment as above.
Elves remain downtrodden, but PCs can enter trades without greatly fearing being scammed, so interactions and playable roles rise.

Consequences:
Difficult for elves to remain a "proud" race - they're clearly an underclass, here.
Docs still need some updating to discuss how elves make a living in the city.

Concerns:
PCs probably don't buy much in the way of low value goods. Interaction may not increase as much as hoped. Possibly fixable with a tribe that distills cheap liquor or something similar?

The mafia model:

Everybody wishes they didn't have to deal with the elves. The rich and powerful certainly don't do so openly. Nonetheless, tribal elves control a lot of city commerce, and past attempts to wrest it from their grip have proven fruitless. Once in a while the templars step in and kill some elves who've become too cocky, but it's mostly a reminder to the tribes to take their share quietly and keep out of the light.

The great saving grace is that the tribes are at each others' throats. Without it, they'd be unbearable. As it is, a lot of humans who work in areas of the city which are substantially under elven influences try the best they can to stay out of tribal battles and not draw attention. It's altogether something of a relief to find an elf who doesn't have a tribe and can be ill-treated safely.

Most elves, in this model, are productive - it's just that they are working businesses their tribe fiercely defends against all comers, building their little empires and warring with other tribes. The templars dislike and distrust them, but only move against them on occasions that they annoy someone powerful or make themselves too visible.

Advantages:
Explains elves' large virtual numbers, brings PC RP in line.
Elven sociopathy is well catered for.
Plenty of room for conflict.

Consequences:
Again, docs would need updated.

Concerns:
This might have too much room for conflict. In particular, a single tribe with no other elves to fight might end up making trouble for all and sundry until human PCs banded together to bring it down.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 03, 2013, 08:46:10 PM
All of this is assuming you have a race of elven supermen; they make more coin, they pay more bribes, they're more useful to Templars and have more powerful connections than the human counterpart. This is a false assumption, across the board.

No.
You're missing something fundamental: your human belongs to a group of two or three. Your elf belongs to a group of a few dozen or more. The latter group will have a lot more money. It's not that elves are supermen: it's that they're tribal.

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Elves cannot transcend their tribal boundaries to form large organisations or united armies. Humans can do this, but are nonetheless split into their own factions.

Split into factions, but time and again you will see Aides, soldiers, servants, you name it, from different Houses, even Houses that have a spat in progress, all temporarily turn on an offending lesser race if they happen to slight someone, or just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. A certain Amber was very good at making non-humans the target of human ridicule and it was great.

The problem here is that you're talking about a room in a single moment - not an organised venture. If a tribe of a hundred elves plots vengeance on Amos the grebber, he's done. He doesn't have an equal organisation to bring to his aid.

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There are 135,500 free elves in Nak, and 150,000 free humans. I am if anything understating my case. If we had one tribe of 135,500 elves, they would be massively more powerful - by orders of magnitude - than any human organisation through simple force of numbers and being far more united than the humans are. If they raised an army, it would exceed everyone the Noble Houses combined could raise in numbers, quite possibly by a factor of ten. This is power. If there were a patchwork of tribes willing to work together, they might not have quite the same unity, but the sheer numbers would still make them a force to be reckoned with.

Again, you're assuming elven supermen who leap over tall buildings and slay soldiers with a single stab.

The relatively small number of Templars in the city control a much larger army of (trained, disciplined) soldiers because opposing them means facing down the magickal wrath of the most powerful magickal entity that has (as far as most know) ever existed, the Highlord. The sheer volume of untrained, undisciplined elves would be daunting only in so far as the time and logistics required to haul all of the bodies out of the city and clean up the mess of full on genocide.

Seriously? This is no more true than the notion that generals in our world are somehow capable of fighting all the soldiers under their control and winning. You don't need to be able to beat people to command them.

However, while "the Highlord" is used as something of a deus ex machina, when you're talking urban guerilla warfare against vastly larger numbers, you'd pretty much have to burn Nak to the ground to win.

In any case, we're getting away from the core point. You're jumping from the Noble Houses to the militia, carelessly, and talking about an all out war. It's not that the One Elf Tribe would command ten times the army of the Noble Houses and so they could kick Tek's ass, it's that they command that number of people and so they would be listened to because crossing them has the potential to be immensely costly. It's a fight that might be winnable, but it would be a deeply Pyrrhic victory. If the top Lord Borsail huffs out of the meeting with the Chief Elf of Nak because he doesn't want to talk to an elf, it's the elf that people apologise to, because frankly it's a lot less trouble to deal with Lord Borsail's snits than the elf's. It's the same principle which gets people listening to a half-breed Kuraci Agent over a human independent merchant.

There isn't even the angle of them forming some kind of super mafia because... they're elves in a human society.

They're not, though. They're elves in a mixed society. An almost evenly mixed society. A society in which the humans are on top in no small part because the elves cannot get their shit together and cooperate. Nonetheless, on the scale where elves can very much get their shit together and cooperate they should be a force to be reckoned with.

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There are too many elves for this to work. There's an elf for every free human in Nak. The last thing the militia wants to do is make it elf vs human and give the tribes a chance to unite. They'd be overrun. The strength they have is in playing divide and conquer - they certainly don't have the resource to go in hard against every elven threat.

Humans still boast the larger numbers, superior infrastructure can more reliably unite and press other lesser races into service (dwarves, breeds, half-giants, muls) - because they're humans and the safe bet, where as elves are all thieving, lying, backstabbing scum as far as the average person is concerned.

Bloody? Yes. Elves all but vanishing from the city? Yes. Victory for the Highlord? Yes.

They might be able to win, but there's no reason for them to stupidly provoke a war against a proud race. Short of war, it's entirely plausible for them to go in hard with a branch of the militia, get every last one wiped out, and have the elves they've united vanish into the city, be nowhere to be seen.

The basic point here that you seem to keep passing by is that even if you could win an all-out war in a costly fashion, unless you're determined to fight such a war you have to provide at least a nod to the power possessed by the other side, you have to pay it some respect, even if only on a local scale. Soldiers are routinely disciplined for inflaming tensions against sides that their commanders don't want to fight.

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More than this, the economy runs on them - has to run on them, because of their numbers. This means groups of elves with substantial economic clout, likely some of them playing part of the supply chain of major Houses.

I'm not seeing a lot of documentation suggesting the economy is dependent on elves, other than they are often used as slaves.

One of the points in the thread is the inconsistency of the documentation on how / where elves fit into the economic machine (unless I'm misunderstanding something), so I'm not seeing how you can take something up for dispute and pose it as a fact. While I do agree they are and should be one of the many cogs that keep the economy of Allanak in motion, I'm not really confident enough in the where and how to consider using it for or against.

The docs actually state the exact opposite. Elves are rarely slaves.

It's the basic mathematics of moochers. If one half of the free population works and the other half steals, we rapidly arrive at a ridiculous conclusion. Sanity is only restored when we conclude that much of the stealing half has to work too.

Given that the Allanak economy IS, by the documentation, often in flux with booms and depressions common, even if elves are as critically ingrained into the economy, them suddenly disappearing would just be another temporary (if severe) fluctuation. In the aftermath, there are all those jobs now available to be taken up by humans in need of work, so I don't see it having an age-long effect.

We're not talking about all elves dying off. We're talking about groups which have economic power being hurt, which act as suppliers to other People Who Matter. These are the people who'll get pissed off if someone hurts their supply chain. Sure, it would eventually recover, but for now? They're out many thousands of sid and looking for the folk who're to blame.

Again, you're making assumptions in favor of your elven supermen, colossal tribes with swathes of connections and wealth.

I don't see it in the documentation, I don't see it in the game and based on the existing documentation, I can't see any of that happening under the authoritarian gaze of the humans in power. If elven tribes were to have that level of connections, influence and power due to numbers (of which humans still have more), you can be sure that groups of humans would begin forming to rival that power.

Suggesting elves could form huge tribes and strike constant fear into every 'Amos' as you put it, without any kind of opposition from a race that believes to their core they are superior and the rightful citizens of the city... I think you're kind of reaching here.

No. Again and again, you fail to understand that power is not binary. Large groups have more power than small groups which have more power than tiny groups which have more power than single people. Even if the tiny groups share some characteristic with the larger groups, they don't have a free call on the resources of the larger groups; being a group of white men doesn't automatically make you rich or influential, nor does having the surname Gates.

America in particular is replete with examples of why your logic is faulty. Ethnicities with strong family ties that were despised and downtrodden grew powerful locally, some through simple accumulation of wealth, some through illegal activity.

Some humans exist in large organisations. These organisations have more power than elven tribes. Some humans exist in groups of two or three, or are solitary. These groups have less power than elven tribes. If they want to form together into some kind of group to uphold their race, they can have at it, but most people won't, because they've got too many other stresses in their life. The elves don't need to form a pro-elven group; they've got their tribe. We're back to the Brown Shirts being chucked through the windows by the Jewish gangsters.

Zalanthas is a place where the templars don't care about the poor and weak. The crimcode is a bug, not a feature. They aren't going to come running because one low-life assaults another, whether that low-life be human or elf. It's not important to them. They're not on some human privilege kick. They're on a Noble House and Merchant House privilege kick.

A lot of that already exists in Tuluk, where society would allow it - and some of the reasons it's there are too sensitive for the forums, unfortunately.

Those reasons don't really exist in Allanak and while I'm willing to accept that a large part of that might be how limited related documentation is, I'm not seeing how a society like the one in Allanak would ever come to tolerate packs of 'hundreds' strong elves infiltrating a very prideful human city and having the kind of power you're suggesting they should have.

Infiltrating? There's 135,500 elves in Nak. Large tribal families breeding and growing. There's no infiltrating required. How's the militia to know that a tribe's become hundreds strong? Why should they care about it? It would be more surprising, in such a large number, if no tribes of over a hundred existed.

I would suggest that even from an exclusively playability point of view, having a coded clan everyone can opt into upon creation is going to immediately grant excessive power right out of the gate.
You would have elven PCs join, have access to gear, allies, support and influence... and I'm sure you can imagine how quickly that could (and likely would) turn ridiculous and we're right back to what happened previously that caused the staff to disallow tribe calls full stop.

Hah. This is why I want an actual clan: you can see at once that if there were a clan in game, PCs would have access to gear, allies, support and influence. With numbers comes power. But when arguing this in the abstract, I've felt the whole "with numbers comes power" thing has been lost on you. This is a simple, real consequence of having an actual tribe rather than a couple of buddies to hunt with who probably won't slit your waterskin.

However, I'm not in love with the notion of a default coded clan. If we were going to have an opt-in coded clan, I'd prefer to start with two or three at each others' throats. That way the factor that's meant to balance the elves would be in play from the start.

If it's a special app / role call clan to control abuse potential... it isn't really going to address the general issue with city elves in Allanak.

Eh, I'd take it. It's better than what we have.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Eurynomos on November 04, 2013, 02:29:41 AM
There have been some very thoughtful posts made here. I will say this is turning into a bickering contest between a few people, and i'm losing interest in reading bickering walls of text. The discussion itself was nice, though.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barsook on November 04, 2013, 05:57:58 AM
There have been some very thoughtful posts made here. I will say this is turning into a bickering contest between a few people, and i'm losing interest in reading bickering walls of text. The discussion itself was nice, though.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: evilcabbage on November 04, 2013, 11:36:31 AM
I'm going to do a recap post, in the hope of laying out things in such a way I don't need to answer them again.

Why haven't elves been genocided out of Nak already?

Because there are heaps and heaps of them.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915)

This isn't a minority that can be easily crushed. If elves had to fight for the survival of their species, they'd be able to make a bloody fight of it. They're smarter than humans and very numerous.


No they're not, if they were smarter than humans they would be running the citystates, and elven tribe after elven tribe wouldn't have fucking been wiped out by humans.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on November 04, 2013, 12:13:12 PM
I'm going to do a recap post, in the hope of laying out things in such a way I don't need to answer them again.

Why haven't elves been genocided out of Nak already?

Because there are heaps and heaps of them.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915)

This isn't a minority that can be easily crushed. If elves had to fight for the survival of their species, they'd be able to make a bloody fight of it. They're smarter than humans and very numerous.


No they're not, if they were smarter than humans they would be running the citystates, and elven tribe after elven tribe wouldn't have fucking been wiped out by humans.

The documentation fairly outright states that it's psionicism that had humanity come out on top, not elves or humans just being that much smarter than one another.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on November 04, 2013, 01:16:55 PM
It's fairly well known and documented that elves ARE smarter though. Surely it's not just a code thing.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: manonfire on November 04, 2013, 01:20:22 PM
I'm going to do a recap post, in the hope of laying out things in such a way I don't need to answer them again.

Why haven't elves been genocided out of Nak already?

Because there are heaps and heaps of them.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915)

This isn't a minority that can be easily crushed. If elves had to fight for the survival of their species, they'd be able to make a bloody fight of it. They're smarter than humans and very numerous.


No they're not, if they were smarter than humans they would be running the citystates, and elven tribe after elven tribe wouldn't have fucking been wiped out by humans.

Quote from: the helpfiles
As compared to humans, elves have a higher agility (on average), and a somewhat higher wisdom.

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Also, for what it's worth, elves probably aren't running the citystates 'cause Tektolnes and Muk Utep aren't elves (so far as we know).
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on November 04, 2013, 03:26:36 PM
I have a tin foil hat (as in I don't know) theory that the sole reason elves aren't in charge outside of the tablelands is because of authority's use of psions.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BleakOne on November 04, 2013, 04:20:36 PM
Elves also don't work well in city-sized organization. Nobody can beat the solidarity of an elven tribe, and even a collection of tribes can sometimes become 'bonded' and see each other as not-outsiders, but most elves consider most other elves just as untrustworthy as humans and other races do.

Elves have a higher wisdom so therefore are 'smarter' as such on average than roundears, but they are handicapped in the World Domination area by their own mental quirks.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on November 04, 2013, 06:17:38 PM
Elves have a higher wisdom so therefore are 'smarter' as such on average than roundears, but they are handicapped in the World Domination area by their own mental quirks.

What he said. Elves are supposed to be quick thinkers, but that doesn't necessarily translate into long term planning ability or even common sense. This is why there isn't no elven civilization, even in areas where they are in significant majority (Tablelands if I'm not wrong). They're paranoid sociopaths and, as such, it's incredibly hard for them to work together. Think about why a race smarter than humans still lives in tents or reclaimed buildings.

Still, a tribe that lasts for more than a generation has to understand the power dynamics of the world around them and that knowledge gets passed on to youngsters.

I don't really need coded buildings or guards, I'd be as happy as an elf with a hand in your pocket if we got several uncoded tribes, one which we have to choose at chargen. The relative elven power will come by itself then.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 05, 2013, 07:10:48 AM
I very much like the idea of uncoded tribes that could be chosen at chargen. The more hurdles that can be taken down to encourage people to play tribal elves, the better.

Still, I have a few reservations.

Without some kind of clan board, it would be hard to know who was in your tribe. I foresee a situation arising all too frequently where old, experienced members of the tribe get hauled in to answer for the misdeeds of new members they've never even heard of.

Following from this, lack of formal support would make tribal cohesion and discipline difficult. The new tribe member doesn't know who matters in the tribe, and the members who matter don't have any influence over the new members save what these choose to observe. The tribe would be unable to keep alliances or react effectively to enemies. Tribal survival could be imperiled by a handful of newbies who've read just enough of the elven docs to roll up a bunch of prolifically inept thieves.

It would be harder for the imms to provide guidance without a clan board or a focal meeting point - which again would endanger tribal survival.

Smaller issues that I think are worth noting:


These might not be insurmountable. There's possibly territory to explore between the tight-knit tribe and the entirely tribeless elf - perhaps some tribes have been scattered through past mistakes and exist spread throughout the city as little disconnected pockets. These could fuse together again awkwardly and organically. Maybe that new elf making trouble with the Kadians is of the Dustless Ones, but he's not associated with the Dustless Ones of Theyak's Walk. The latter may disavow the former, or try to convince him to fall in line with their interests. And if the Dustless Ones of Theyak's Walk make a powerful enemy and get wiped out, it needn't mean no other groups of Dustless Ones will rise in the city.

Of course, such a patchwork tribe, its VNPC members scattered and unhelpful, would have little IC sway compared to a tribe both united and numerous. Still, I think it could go a little way to alleviate the miseries of the tribeless elf.

As far as capping tribal numbers goes, there could be a list of acceptable uncoded tribes which was updated periodically, so any tribe becoming too numerous could have the door closed for admissions until they reduced in numbers again.

I'm open to other ideas. Anyone got any thoughts on how uncoded tribes could work, or can see difficulties I've not spotted?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on November 05, 2013, 09:30:54 AM
Well, new clan boards are easy to put in. When I said uncoded, I excluded the boards. As you said, they are essential for those new tribes to function.

I think that's a pretty good solution in this situation when there's relatively little player interest in elves and little manpower from staff to spare. What we need is several blurbs about how the tribe works and what they do. In time, players would fill in the rest. It's happened before, I think.

Such tribes could easily be semi-nomadic, as is proper for city elves. Or stationary, or split or whatever.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: solera on November 05, 2013, 10:46:57 PM
This sounds good. I'd like there still to be the option for c-elves to be a tribe of one PC and a handful of VPC's trying to hang on there in the 'rinth, or southside.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on November 07, 2013, 09:28:09 PM
Le Southside Elf Tribe Page

The Ari Sah: Pale red eyes are a common trait in this family. They have feuded with the Negahna for generations, for reasons which are now forgotten. Their primary sources of income are the renting of apartments and spice running. They do not suffer breeds, 'gickers and mutants to exist. They are known to be serious assholes when the social climate permits.

The Negahna: A large tribe which deals in trade and business of every kind, with every kind of client and employer that is willing to deal with them. They can as easily be found talking to Templars or soldiers in the Silver Ginka as they can entertaining elves in a rinthi establishment. This tribe does not suffer breeds to exist.

The Lenah Tri: Curly or wavy black hair is common in this family. Their main sources of income are bardic services, finished dry goods and their famous liquors and drinks. Some of the city's most skilled assassins come from this family.



Something like that basically?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barsook on November 07, 2013, 09:38:31 PM
Isn't that IC info though?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on November 07, 2013, 09:46:48 PM
What? Why would it be IC info? He just made up a bunch of random tribes as an example of an elven tribal page.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barsook on November 07, 2013, 09:49:30 PM
Oh, I can read.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on November 07, 2013, 10:02:16 PM
I think some Allanaki tribes would definitely make the race more playable. I've only played one, and it was fun, but having a tribe to give direction, a good example, and support would definitely make things easier.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on November 10, 2013, 02:29:18 PM
Le Southside Elf Tribe Page

The Ari Sah: Pale red eyes are a common trait in this family. They have feuded with the Negahna for generations, for reasons which are now forgotten. Their primary sources of income are the renting of apartments and spice running. They do not suffer breeds, 'gickers and mutants to exist. They are known to be serious assholes when the social climate permits.

The Negahna: A large tribe which deals in trade and business of every kind, with every kind of client and employer that is willing to deal with them. They can as easily be found talking to Templars or soldiers in the Silver Ginka as they can entertaining elves in a rinthi establishment. This tribe does not suffer breeds to exist.

The Lenah Tri: Curly or wavy black hair is common in this family. Their main sources of income are bardic services, finished dry goods and their famous liquors and drinks. Some of the city's most skilled assassins come from this family.



Something like that basically?

Exactly. I even like the names you came up with.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on November 10, 2013, 02:43:08 PM
Only thing that makes me wonder in the sample descriptions is: two out of three tribes don't suffer breeds to exist. What does this mean, does this mean the rabidly hunt them down and exterminate them? Or does it just mean if one of their women gives birth to something suspected of being part roundear it gets tossed in the body pile? The latter sounds understandable, if somewhat difficult and potentially failure prone. The former sounds ridiculous.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on November 10, 2013, 03:10:35 PM
Probably the latter but it doesn't matter anyway, what he wrote are just examples. He showed how easy it would be to come up with as many virtual tribes as both cities need.

That being said, I like having the Hand and Jaxa Pah, someone has to be the boss.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on November 10, 2013, 04:06:48 PM
How about a tribe of Nakki hunters, have to have some kind of outdoorsy subguild for things like direction sense and other utility things, or maybe require the Nomad subguild and give them some kind of tribal background (though this would make it difficult to use a bow if not a warrior), grudgingly accepts breeds because they can be rangers and skin things like nobody's business and make cures and other useful things. Sometimes they do mercenary work for coin. Sometimes journey to Luir's and Blackwing for equipment like tents, clothing, armor and weaponry.

A tribe of stuck up merchant elves who grudgingly do business with the hunter elves and laugh behind their back at the bad deal they gave them, pays protection to Jaxa Pah and utilizes their services to dispose of troublesome pests, does not tolerate breeds and openly snubs them. They may have a plan to create gear with elven usage in mind so as to make all of the coin they spend on the hunter tribe back.

And a tribe of bard-like elves who play songs, make jokes an devise elaborate pranks for coin. They don't openly snub breeds, but they don't tolerate them within their ranks. They will often harass the other two tribes openly, but behind closed doors will give them a discount for services, as long as the other tribes can tolerate their twisted sense of humor when it comes to breaking into their compounds and apartments and "decorate" them.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on November 10, 2013, 05:21:19 PM
Only thing that makes me wonder in the sample descriptions is: two out of three tribes don't suffer breeds to exist. What does this mean, does this mean the rabidly hunt them down and exterminate them? Or does it just mean if one of their women gives birth to something suspected of being part roundear it gets tossed in the body pile? The latter sounds understandable, if somewhat difficult and potentially failure prone. The former sounds ridiculous.

The latter. I didn't mean for the list to look like a standard for anything, and I tried using vaguely elvish tribal names. Also they probably should be more flexible. If your tribe's main sources of income are renting apartments and spice running and you come into the game as a member of that tribe, people will automatically think you're a spice runner, which isn't really fair. Of course you could play an exception to the norm, as a weapon trader or something, but this thread exists because we'd like to have southside elves that _aren't_ a damn exception to the norm.

If tribes do get created I'd like the idea of having at least three, with at least two which allow gickers and breeds born in them to live or stay. That way, you don't automatically OOCly know that that gemmed elf is a member of Whatsits tribe, they could also be from GreatSwag tribe, so you don't automatically OOCly assume (particular tribal traits) about the gemmed elf or breed.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on November 10, 2013, 05:23:35 PM
They will often harass the other two tribes openly, but behind closed doors will give them a discount for services, as long as the other tribes can tolerate their twisted sense of humor when it comes to breaking into their compounds and apartments and "decorate" them.

This, this is the bacon for everything that has been said in this thread
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 10, 2013, 09:04:10 PM
Fujikoma, I like that setup. Interdependency. That's real good.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on November 10, 2013, 09:37:05 PM
Weeeeee! Praise!

Ok sorry. What I meant was: Thanks! Yeah, I think interdependancey would be a good thing, and maybe some trade on the side with roundears, but with such a large elven population to cater to, that would likely be their first priority, I would think.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on November 11, 2013, 01:24:18 AM
The problem with multiple elven tribes is player interest in city elves is generally pretty low even with clan support.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: DustMight on November 11, 2013, 09:16:56 AM
The problem with multiple elven tribes is player interest in city elves is generally pretty low even with clan support.

Seriously! Who wants to play an elf that can't run AND can't use mounts? 
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on November 11, 2013, 12:15:16 PM
Burglars and pickpockets.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on November 11, 2013, 08:42:09 PM
The problem with multiple elven tribes is player interest in city elves is generally pretty low even with clan support.

Seriously! Who wants to play an elf that can't run AND can't use mounts? 

Well you don't play a city elf if you want to run around whacking scrab with your l33t bone swordz. There's plenty you can do in a city, although players don't always seem to see it that way. The problem remains that there is currently no tribal option for southern city elves, and the one that we had had a bunch of issues resulting in playability problems and a lot of stress and extra work staff-side. Multiple city tribes would dilute the already small PC elven population, which is the last thing that needs to happen. We need one solid appealing tribe to gather them all together for playability and fun.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: DustMight on November 11, 2013, 09:29:13 PM
The problem with multiple elven tribes is player interest in city elves is generally pretty low even with clan support.

Seriously! Who wants to play an elf that can't run AND can't use mounts? 

Well you don't play a city elf if you want to run around whacking scrab with your l33t bone swordz. There's plenty you can do in a city, although players don't always seem to see it that way. The problem remains that there is currently no tribal option for southern city elves, and the one that we had had a bunch of issues resulting in playability problems and a lot of stress and extra work staff-side. Multiple city tribes would dilute the already small PC elven population, which is the last thing that needs to happen. We need one solid appealing tribe to gather them all together for playability and fun.

I was just fooling.  I love southern city elves with or without a hard-coded clan.  By southern I mean 'rinthi elves.  South-side city elves make no sense to me unless they are really half-breeds.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Potaje on November 11, 2013, 09:31:24 PM
I could see something like an entire mini world within the city for elves, with the idea of interdependence creating a political accord within that. Where as one might see among the round ears greater merchant houses, at their level at least, and not at the level of nobles and above. But within their own sphere in the city there elves would have a smaller world of political intrigue among the three tribes or what have you. With one seeking a controlling dominance over the others to hold influence and be a minor player in the Human world of the city.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on November 11, 2013, 10:05:43 PM
The problem with multiple elven tribes is player interest in city elves is generally pretty low even with clan support.

Seriously! Who wants to play an elf that can't run AND can't use mounts? 

Well you don't play a city elf if you want to run around whacking scrab with your l33t bone swordz. There's plenty you can do in a city, although players don't always seem to see it that way. The problem remains that there is currently no tribal option for southern city elves, and the one that we had had a bunch of issues resulting in playability problems and a lot of stress and extra work staff-side. Multiple city tribes would dilute the already small PC elven population, which is the last thing that needs to happen. We need one solid appealing tribe to gather them all together for playability and fun.

I was just fooling.  I love southern city elves with or without a hard-coded clan.  By southern I mean 'rinthi elves.  South-side city elves make no sense to me unless they are really half-breeds.

I'm not sure why elves outside of the Rinth make no sense to you. The documentation and coded game world both support city elves all over Allanak, not only in the eastside of the Labyrinth, but the westside and southside as well. There are elven shopkeepers in high profile locations in the common quarter, and there are plenty of elven NPCs to reflect the sizable elven population.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 12, 2013, 08:55:40 AM
I very much dislike the idea of elven tribal interdependence.

If elves were able to overcome their differences and find some measure of racial solidarity, they would be a force to be reckoned with. The reason they aren't is precisely because they're so very bad at working together. Elven tribes don't trust each other, and don't feel kinship. I imagine in many ways an elven tribe would prefer to deal with the roundears, who aren't directly competition in the same way, than another tribe; while neither can be trusted, the other tribe is elvenkind and so is greatly superior to the roundears in scheming, in trickery, in knowing malevolence.

If we were to create uncoded tribes, I'd prefer to see two or three geared from the outset to be at each others' throats, viciously so. That way, if PC elves ever grow numerous, the division between tribes that is the perpetual elven weakness will be there waiting to keep them from becoming more of a force than they should be. Coded tribes require more support, and have more oversight, and I think a single one would be a substantial improvement.


Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 12, 2013, 03:52:48 PM
Meh. I dislike your logic in gameplay terms, but it is logic that makes sense.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 12, 2013, 06:14:29 PM
Meh. I dislike your logic in gameplay terms, but it is logic that makes sense.

The best kind of logic!

But, so as not to be a downer, I'll chuck in a couple of uncoded tribe ideas of my own.

The Hara Aganti
Prouder than most elves of their running, for many years the Hara Aganti were couriers employed by many of the merchants of Nak's bazaar, reputed to deliver small packages and messages across the city faster than all others. Their downfall came early in the 21st Age, when they were found by the templarate to be deeply involved in the spice trade and were subsequently hunted and harried by the Arm of the Dragon until the tribe split into numerous small and disunited groups, many of which were victimised by other tribes with old scores to settle. All but a few of the remaining families which still count themselves as being of the Hara Aganti are now poor, and many make their living as grebbers or from unskilled labour. A few of them dream yet of recapturing the tribe's former glory, and repeat still the old boast that a delivery left in Aganti hands is safer than a box stored in House Nenyuk's vaults.

Other elves take exception to the jibes the Hara Aganti level at their supposedly inferior running.

The Sohavirya
Remnants of a desert tribe driven from their lands by tribal rivalries, the Sohavirya fancy themselves superior to the city tribes that surround them, though with the passing of generations it has become hard for outsiders to tell the difference. Scattered and weak from the time of their arrival, they've long been widely dispersed about the city, and most families within the tribe have little regular contact with each other. Lovers of trade, nothing satisfies them more than gently bickering over a price with someone who poorly understands the value of the goods they're selling, and the brightly coloured sandcloth clothing they make can be seen in many of the poorer parts of the Southside. It is an article of faith with them that life in the desert is purer and more beautiful, and they sigh often over the indignities of city living. Of course, few if any of them are foolish enough to actually think they could survive in the sands, though they venture often enough a little way outside the city walls to swagger and talk of their tribe's great past.

Other elves are annoyed by the Sohavirya's claims of superiority and their pretence of being a desert tribe.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on November 12, 2013, 06:26:00 PM
Don't forget the rickshaw elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on November 12, 2013, 10:25:09 PM
Yeeeaaaah those are some elves boy

The only thing, though: I don't want to be the streaker in your parade, but I thought tribes were all supposedly tight-knit and trust each other to whatever end?

I like the idea of fragmented tribes who have little contact with each other outside their immediate family, but I'm not sure that's something an elven tribe would end up in.

I love the running. I LOVE IT
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quirk on November 13, 2013, 05:16:23 AM
Yeeeaaaah those are some elves boy

The only thing, though: I don't want to be the streaker in your parade, but I thought tribes were all supposedly tight-knit and trust each other to whatever end?

I like the idea of fragmented tribes who have little contact with each other outside their immediate family, but I'm not sure that's something an elven tribe would end up in.

I love the running. I LOVE IT

Well, we already have the notion of tribeless elves: elves who've been separated entirely from their tribal origin by the city. Scaling that up to small groups who have some idea of their origin but have lost contact isn't a big stretch. Still, though, the main rationale for the fragmentation is the need to support uncoded tribes. A coded tribe with imm support can have a clear tribal hierarchy and meaningful alliances, an uncoded one without imm support not so much as it's rather at the mercy of whichever new players wanted to play an elf this week. I feel the fragmentation idea supports players being able to just jump in and make the connection with other elves of their tribe in game.

I'd seriously love to see them scaled up to be close-knit coded tribes, and this would allow dropping the "hard times" motif.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Potaje on November 13, 2013, 09:31:35 AM
 IN THE YEAR OF JIHAE'S DEFIANCE, YEAR 12 OF THE 22ND AGE

 Born from a desire and innate draw small gangs of tribe-less city elves begin forming in Allanak's south side common quarter.
Conflicts within the elven community are mildly disruptive for a time, but the militia seems to mostly look the other way until such conflict disrupts the human population.

 Over a sort time, pressed more when the militia begins breaking them up, smaller gangs either dissipate or form into larger units. The strength and organization offered by those able to lead the larger elven gangs reinforce against the militia through whispers of [edited:a hum *coughs*] bribes and payoffs, carving out their territories.

Two gangs divide up the common quarter and tho tension remains between them as they vie for influence within the elven community, a clear hierarchical presence is formed and maintained with force.

  
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Red Ranger on November 13, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
I personally like the idea of the uncoded Allanakki elven tribes, such as these (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg786265.html#msg786265) and these (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg786265.html#msg786265), and this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg787247.html#msg787247) offers one mostly plausible explanation of how they may come about, except for one fabulous typo:

The strength and organization offered by those able to lead the larger elven gangs reinforce against the militia through whispers of brides and payoffs, carving out their territories.

“And by the power vested in me by the Highlord as a Blue Robe of the city-state of Allanak, I hereby pronounce you husband and wife. You may kiss your elven bride, Sergeant.”
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Potaje on November 13, 2013, 03:42:08 PM
I personally like the idea of the uncoded Allanakki elven tribes, such as these (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg786265.html#msg786265) and these (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg786265.html#msg786265), and this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg787247.html#msg787247) offers one mostly plausible explanation of how they may come about, except for one fabulous typo:

The strength and organization offered by those able to lead the larger elven gangs reinforce against the militia through whispers of brides and payoffs, carving out their territories.

“And by the power vested in me by the Highlord as a Blue Robe of the city-state of Allanak, I hereby pronounce you husband and wife. You may kiss your elven bride, Sergeant.”


:looks about; red faced, toeing the ground, hands tucked in pockets.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Scarecrow on December 15, 2013, 06:29:14 AM
Now we know where the first half-elves came from.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Zoan on December 15, 2013, 03:33:50 PM
I personally like the idea of the uncoded Allanakki elven tribes, such as these (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg786265.html#msg786265) and these (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg786265.html#msg786265), and this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.msg787247.html#msg787247) offers one mostly plausible explanation of how they may come about, except for one fabulous typo:

The strength and organization offered by those able to lead the larger elven gangs reinforce against the militia through whispers of brides and payoffs, carving out their territories.

“And by the power vested in me by the Highlord as a Blue Robe of the city-state of Allanak, I hereby pronounce you husband and wife. You may kiss your elven bride, Sergeant.”


"Y...yes, Lord Templar."
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: lordcooper on December 15, 2013, 03:40:17 PM
Despite Sergeant Malik's initial reluctance, his wife stole his heart with their first kiss.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barzalene on December 15, 2013, 08:17:54 PM
And a couple of his back teeth.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Ourla on December 17, 2013, 02:40:08 AM
And everything in his pockets.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: solera on December 17, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
Now we know where the first half-elves came from.

That figures. They were a typo!
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Potaje on December 17, 2013, 01:38:12 PM
Apparently she stole his seed as well, damn that elf for taking serious what the Sarg was poking in fun.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on December 17, 2013, 01:59:27 PM
IN THE YEAR OF JIHAE'S DEFIANCE, YEAR 12 OF THE 22ND AGE

 Born from a desire and innate draw small gangs of tribe-less city elves begin forming in Allanak's south side common quarter.
Conflicts within the elven community are mildly disruptive for a time, but the militia seems to mostly look the other way until such conflict disrupts the human population.

 Over a sort time, pressed more when the militia begins breaking them up, smaller gangs either dissipate or form into larger units. The strength and organization offered by those able to lead the larger elven gangs reinforce against the militia through whispers of [edited:a hum *coughs*] bribes and payoffs, carving out their territories.

Two gangs divide up the common quarter and tho tension remains between them as they vie for influence within the elven community, a clear hierarchical presence is formed and maintained with force.

  

Two city elf tribes that are capable of having much more power, but are too busy trying to screw each other over to get anywhere near that level of influence?

Best idea ever. (I understand that's not how the idea was presented but I want to read it like that.)

And imagine being the child of members of both tribes: always afraid for your life in a sphere initially irrelevant to those of the militia and humans. God, what a role.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: SmashedTregil on January 17, 2014, 07:34:40 PM
Interesting ideas. Though these tribes would have to have "some" regulation in numbers. You gotta remember, elves of the same tribe explicitly trust each other. It is an immensely powerful thing to be able to create a character and suddenly "boom", you've got n amount of completely trustworthy allies. Allies that will never betray you. Pretty soon no human organization in the city will be able to compete with that kind of power.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on January 17, 2014, 07:39:58 PM
Interesting ideas. Though these tribes would have to have "some" regulation in numbers. You gotta remember, elves of the same tribe explicitly trust each other. It is an immensely powerful thing to be able to create a character and suddenly "boom", you've got n amount of completely trustworthy allies. Allies that will never betray you. Pretty soon no human organization in the city will be able to compete with that kind of power.



Yeah, but if you abuse that trust, the tribe may find some interesting punishments for you, or so I'd think.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on January 17, 2014, 08:11:55 PM
I've never really liked the 'you can't allow PC elves to create tribes because they'll be unstoppable argument,' simply for the fact that this ignores the fact that elves are a strong force in their own regards. It's the same thing as saying that salarr shouldn't bully independent merchants around because that'd make the GMH's in general unstoppable.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: TimTembo on January 18, 2014, 08:15:49 AM
I've never really liked the 'you can't allow PC elves to create tribes because they'll be unstoppable argument,' simply for the fact that this ignores the fact that elves are a strong force in their own regards. It's the same thing as saying that salarr shouldn't bully independent merchants around because that'd make the GMH's in general unstoppable.

I agree. A group of PC elves that started overstepping their bounds would get smashed pretty quickly. Imagine how pissed off the powers that be would become. There wouldn't be anywhere for them to go. Leave the city? They couldn't survive. Hide in the Labyrinth? None of the groups there would allow that.

They'd be even more vulnerable than "normal" independent groups. To survive, they would have to find some tolerated niche and level of activity.

There would be a real tug-of-war between "we're elves, our tribe is proud and independent" and "shit, we'd better help out <powerful group> or we're going to get smashed."

Many groups would actually have a reason to try to manipulate a weak but useful group of elves.

Which would be very interesting RP. Much moreso than the useless isolation available to elf PCs now.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Lizzie on January 18, 2014, 08:29:03 AM
I think I get the issue with tribal thing. My observation (whether it's on-par for the staff reasoning or not):
There are only "x" number of staff members available to do stuff with coded clans, and unclanned people.

If you form a tribe that -is- starting to do "unstoppable stuff," it will require the "powers that be" to stop them. If those powers aren't available PCs (like - templars available to play 18 hours per day, with PC soldiers to inform them of what the problem is, with PC spies to find out where the culprits are, and maybe even a full Byn unit to track down "The Wandering Unstoppable Elf" who never stays in the city more than a RL hour at a time)...then they'll require the staff to step in.

If the staff is already busy dealing with their own clan stuff (including unclanned people who aren't part of unofficial tribes) then those unstoppables really DO become unstoppable - even though the game world wouldn't "realistically" let them be unstoppable.

And that's when you end up with a bunch of Klestion Brothers running rampant and making the game un-fun for people who are trying to play within the documented RP limits of the game.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: TimTembo on January 18, 2014, 08:57:24 AM
That same unrealistic mode is available to human PCs currently - and those that take it don't live very long.

They also have the benefit (sometimes) of political backing and a safe haven, which elves wouldn't.

It'd get to the point where an elf wouldn't be able to be visible at any time, anywhere in the city.

It's possible for a non-soldier to just kill someone on the street. Sometimes it isn't easy, but it is possible.

Those elves would only have to make one mistake.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on January 18, 2014, 09:33:16 AM
I think I get the issue with tribal thing. My observation (whether it's on-par for the staff reasoning or not):
There are only "x" number of staff members available to do stuff with coded clans, and unclanned people.

If you form a tribe that -is- starting to do "unstoppable stuff," it will require the "powers that be" to stop them. If those powers aren't available PCs (like - templars available to play 18 hours per day, with PC soldiers to inform them of what the problem is, with PC spies to find out where the culprits are, and maybe even a full Byn unit to track down "The Wandering Unstoppable Elf" who never stays in the city more than a RL hour at a time)...then they'll require the staff to step in.

If the staff is already busy dealing with their own clan stuff (including unclanned people who aren't part of unofficial tribes) then those unstoppables really DO become unstoppable - even though the game world wouldn't "realistically" let them be unstoppable.

And that's when you end up with a bunch of Klestion Brothers running rampant and making the game un-fun for people who are trying to play within the documented RP limits of the game.


The elves would still be far worse at any of this than any human independent group putting their mind into it. During the HRPT, a certain group of independents had more PC's fighting for Tuluk than the bloody Legions themselves did. The argument that staff would be unable to deal with uncoded elf tribes when this kind of thing happens is nothing short of laughable.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dar on January 18, 2014, 09:44:44 PM
It's true. Imms would be able to react just fine. After all Red Fang was destroyed, were they not? After they owned the entire world for a year or more.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Lizzie on January 18, 2014, 10:53:58 PM
It's true. Imms would be able to react just fine. After all Red Fang was destroyed, were they not? After they owned the entire world for a year or more.

It's not a matter of whether or not they would be able to react just fine. It's a matter of whether or not they want to invest time and energy into the work involved, if they opened it up again. The issues with the Red Fangs took a -lot- of staff resources, a lot of time, energy, effort. I'd love nothing more than to see more desert elf tribes opened up, whether new ones or existing ones that are presently closed for play.

But the staff has already said - they're closed for a reason, they're not opened for a reason, and really, it's just beating a dead horse - or banging your head against the wall - depending on how much effort -you- want to invest into being a change you're not allowed to be.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on January 18, 2014, 11:14:33 PM
This thread is about city elves. If you want to join the general dead tribe reverence the gdb has, fine, but do it elsewhere.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: maxid on January 19, 2014, 11:29:19 PM
A few ways to fix elves that likely won't go anywhere and, obviously, have a few issues of their own.  These could be taken as a whole, or separately, it doesn't matter.


1.  Change the 'elves hate riding' to 'desert elf tribes hate riding' and have them look down on/sneer at city elves. City Elves are always poor riders (like, mid level cap no matter the guild, even ranger, sort of an inverse of half-elves.  And no taming.)

2.  Change the elven 'ideal' somewhat, from 'thieves who always steal steal steal omg always' to something more like Jewish stereotypes.  They're skinflints, they work together to screw over nonelves, they secretly steal your babies and sell them to the butcher.  The thievery part is in there, but it's tied into them being tight with money, and looking to rip you off. Also they'd need some sort of positive racism in there too - they're really good at making stuff, they've got great storm vision so they make good guides, they have a really good eye for quality, etc. etc.

3.  Just give celves delf run, but codify it that celves don't really like to be out of the city a lot, unless they're with a specific type of 'tribe'.  See: Byn, Kurac, etc.  Delf run is not as OP as people seem to think it is, and I understand the argument that separates two members of the same race into Those Who Can and Those Who Can't run, but it sort of makes them shitty to play in any role that isn't celf sneakthief. 
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: SmashedTregil on January 20, 2014, 06:09:45 AM
Way to fix elves: Remove elves and put in humans.


Stealing can mean different things. Very much including what you described in your 2nd idea.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on January 20, 2014, 06:33:49 AM
I honestly don't care about coded benefits if I can have RP opportunities (ie tribes/clans) to match elven documents.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: CodeMaster on January 20, 2014, 01:08:26 PM
I have been reading the city elf docs closely.  One problem is you are encouraged to play tribal but, since your tribe is "virtual", the other elves you interact with will always be strangers.  Playing to the docs makes it hard for elves to get along with strangers, so one can end up being more FOREVER ALONE than a half-elf would be.

Add that to the fact that there are way fewer people playing elves in this game than I would have thought (I am on character #1, and have made a lot of mistakes) and it's just hard to fit in, even if the game world is very well done.

Please bear in mind I might be suggesting bad things because I'm so green at this.  But here's my ideas:

Make it cheaper for a city elf to get an apartment in a "city elf housing district".  Perhaps this exists already in the Rinth. I don't know.  Make it really cool, with lots of little passages and roofs.  Allanak is just covered in soldiers so maybe there could be fewer soldiers here too so you could get away with more.  But, I wouldn't want to recreate the Rinth. I just can't comment on the Rinth yet actually.

City elves SUCK in the desert!  This bit me hard.  But, they are pretty good at running in the city in terms of stamina loss, which is fun but maybe they could be better.  Maybe if you run two rooms in a row in the same direction, "You reach your stride." and you can run even faster continuing in that direction.  Or maybe they could get "sprint" movement type that is even faster but costs stamina in rooms that have no stamina.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barzalene on January 20, 2014, 02:14:46 PM
Just because you're green doesn't mean you don't have a point.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Synthesis on January 20, 2014, 02:46:23 PM
City-elves already run fast enough in the city.

It's actually one of the pretty big advantages, since almost nothing but another elf can shadow you for more than a couple of rooms.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on January 20, 2014, 04:10:51 PM
City elf run is nice, until you are crimflagged and thrown in prison by a Templar with nothing better to do, at which point you'll probably be tortured, interrogated, and generally treated like you just tried to assassinate a senator.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Malken on January 20, 2014, 04:14:10 PM
One of my most hilarious time on Armageddon was when I played a pickpocket that nobody had probably ever seen, and my pickpocket was -really- good. I would steal shit left and right inside the Gaj and each time a poor lone and newbie elf PC (Because at that point there was really no other elf PCs left alive in Allanak except for my nearly perma invisible one) would walk in, they would get their backpack searched and often interrogated as if they were the ones who had stolen from everyone.

I would hear things like, "Well, you might not be the thief we're looking for but surely you know of some other elf roaming the streets that you could tell us about, hmmmmmm?"
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on January 20, 2014, 04:17:32 PM
One of my most hilarious time on Armageddon was when I played a pickpocket that nobody had probably ever seen, and my pickpocket was -really- good. I would steal shit left and right inside the Gaj and each time a poor lone and newbie elf PC (Because at that point there was really no other elf PCs left alive in Allanak except for my nearly perma invisible one) would walk in, they would get their backpack searched and often interrogated as if they were the ones who had stolen from everyone.

I would hear things like, "Well, you might not be the thief we're looking for but surely you know of some other elf roaming the streets that you could tell us about, hmmmmmm?"

Yeah... Brings back some bad memories.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Riev on January 21, 2014, 03:14:22 PM
I think a future character is going to be "the grey elf", who I will play as though an automated NPC. Walking from the Gaj, to standing outside a tenement, with a changed ldesc, and only responding to looks/queries on the rare occasion. During the night, he will steal half the treasures in the Known, and return to his normal behavior come morning.

After 6 RL months, people will just be used to him being around, until one day his clothing has changed to all silks and diamond jewelery. Nobody will still notice because at that point, people won't look at him.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barzalene on January 21, 2014, 06:50:23 PM
I think a future character is going to be "the grey elf", who I will play as though an automated NPC. Walking from the Gaj, to standing outside a tenement, with a changed ldesc, and only responding to looks/queries on the rare occasion. During the night, he will steal half the treasures in the Known, and return to his normal behavior come morning.

After 6 RL months, people will just be used to him being around, until one day his clothing has changed to all silks and diamond jewelery. Nobody will still notice because at that point, people won't look at him.

Sounds neat but not fun.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Narf on January 21, 2014, 07:09:51 PM
I think a future character is going to be "the grey elf", who I will play as though an automated NPC. Walking from the Gaj, to standing outside a tenement, with a changed ldesc, and only responding to looks/queries on the rare occasion. During the night, he will steal half the treasures in the Known, and return to his normal behavior come morning.

After 6 RL months, people will just be used to him being around, until one day his clothing has changed to all silks and diamond jewelery. Nobody will still notice because at that point, people won't look at him.

Sounds neat but not fun.

You could break it up with occassional rp with passerby. Most people would dismiss it to animations as long as you used change ldesc in random places.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Malken on January 21, 2014, 07:16:29 PM
I think a future character is going to be "the grey elf", who I will play as though an automated NPC. Walking from the Gaj, to standing outside a tenement, with a changed ldesc, and only responding to looks/queries on the rare occasion. During the night, he will steal half the treasures in the Known, and return to his normal behavior come morning.

After 6 RL months, people will just be used to him being around, until one day his clothing has changed to all silks and diamond jewelery. Nobody will still notice because at that point, people won't look at him.

Sounds neat but not fun.

You could break it up with occassional rp with passerby. Most people would dismiss it to animations as long as you used change ldesc in random places.

Or think that you're a Staff animated NPC and then everyone would gather around you and wear their best possible emotes.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Suhuy on January 22, 2014, 03:03:22 AM
I've always felt it would be nice if more were done for city elves as an overall race. But it need not necessarily be in coded changes to the race itself.

City elves are given their name for a reason. If you want to go explore -- or really leave the city much at all -- you are well advised to choose a different race entirely. City elves are, by and large, ghetto dwellers, victims of the system who rely on their cleverness and street smarts to get by in a world that largely shuns them. They are definitely not travelers. Almost none of the major organizations in the Known World will hire them, and almost no city elf should want to join a group of untested, untrustworthy people anyway. Its only natural therefore that most elves will seek haven in the seedier parts of the city. With all of that said, I see no reason to boost their stamina so that they can unrealistically travel outdoors. Besides, spend 5 minutes zipping around Allanak as an elf, then go try the same thing as a human and you'll see how advantaged they are when it comes to stamina. That is when it comes to stamina in their natural environment: the city.

It's also going to be difficult to accommodate every variety of elf in the game world, given the size of our playerbase. The main concern here with city elves is their inability to interact with many people. I think coding a city elf tribe in Allanak but outside the Rinth would be worsening this situation. Tuluk has a city elf tribe in their commoners quarter. The Warrens are not an exact parallel to the Rinth since it is not a lawless area like the Rinth is, which makes the Akai Sjir more out in the open. So I'd say each city-state has something to offer, one in a lawless area and one not. Make any more tribes and you wind up playing a city elf who only has NPCs as companions.

So what's to be done to make city elves more attractive to players and gives them something to do at the same time? I think enhancing their "territories" would be a wonderful start. And because I've long felt that Tuluk has been given more than its share of building projects and attention in the past several years, I think the Rinth more than takes precedence here. Additions to the elven market and access to black market commodities that other races don't have access to would make elves desirable in such a way that non-elves still dislike them, but also seek them out to buy the things they're after. It gives them a purpose and makes them useful, while still ensuring they are the scorned and frowned upon race that they should be. No need to boost city elves, I say, boost their territories.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: i love toilets on January 22, 2014, 05:09:50 AM
I love city elf running. It turns me on.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Chettaman on February 04, 2014, 10:10:28 AM
One day now that I feel I've mastered the game-ish...
Armageddon   (advanced)

I'm going to roll an elf and see what I can do. (southern elf = hard mode)
A dwarf too.
A half giant especially.

I really really wanna play a halfling.

anyway. I like the idea of a southern tribe suddenly springing up for people to be able to join or whatever no matter how meager.
That said, I want to say a tribe is like ''family''. You can have in it whoever you want. For an elf this is different, I imagine. You must test your family before you consider them worthy of the title. It could be anyone. Not just another elf.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: FantasyWriter on February 04, 2014, 10:36:10 AM
I want to play a gith.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barsook on February 04, 2014, 12:20:16 PM
I want to play a gith.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Zoan on February 04, 2014, 03:49:24 PM
Gith are just desert elves with an even flimsier excuse to PK whatever they come across (and that's impressive given d-elves need zero excuse).
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on February 04, 2014, 04:21:33 PM
I want to play a gith.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on February 04, 2014, 04:36:28 PM
Gith are just desert elves with an even flimsier excuse to PK whatever they come across (and that's impressive given d-elves need zero excuse).

It's okay because you effectively never have to worry about desert elves in 80% of the known world.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on February 04, 2014, 04:43:35 PM
Gith are just desert elves with an even flimsier excuse to PK whatever they come across (and that's impressive given d-elves need zero excuse).

It's okay because you effectively never have to worry about desert elves in 80% of the known world.

How do your PC's magically know that of all the tribes there's two that have elves who are a threat to them in some manner?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on February 05, 2014, 09:18:46 PM
because there are no documented desert elven tribes open or closed living in 80% of the world

I guess you can say my PCs should be worried about a virtual, unnamed, never-before-heard-of desert elf tribe in the red desert or the salt flats or the scrublands but I think we can both agree that that's kind of silly?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Chettaman on February 06, 2014, 06:26:02 PM
I'm more afraid of the fire-breathing spiders born from the magickal fusion that happened because of the movement of the volcano. And they ride on bahamet.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BleakOne on February 06, 2014, 08:31:19 PM
I'm more afraid of the fire-breathing spiders born from the magickal fusion that happened because of the movement of the volcano. And they ride on bahamet.

Chainsaw-wielding bahamet, no less.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Molten Heart on May 23, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
Bump
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 23, 2014, 02:52:23 PM
Don't be too ballsy and brazen too often and you just might survive. Other than that, keep your long-ears open for rumors and your finger firmly on the pulse, and always have an escape plan for when things inevitably get ugly. Whenever another sharp does something, everyone knows you know about it, even if you don't, prepare to BS your way out of a bunch of garbage.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 23, 2014, 04:18:25 PM
allanaki city elves - join the byn or have fun being a more isolated than a breed with no clans and no tribe despite tribes being a central facet of your documentation
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 23, 2014, 04:24:52 PM
You're supposed to act out with your tribe virtually. Just like dwarves act out their focus virtually, and people poop virtually.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Harmless on May 23, 2014, 04:37:14 PM
You're supposed to act out with your tribe virtually. Just like dwarves act out their focus virtually, and people poop virtually.

Doesn't sound too appealing does it
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 24, 2014, 10:36:10 AM
allanaki city elves - join the byn or have fun being a more isolated than a breed with no clans and no tribe despite tribes being a central facet of your documentation

...you guys have gotten spoiled.  There used to be no coded city elf tribes at all.  None.  With the same tribal emphasis.

It made you learn how to treat other PC's as an elf.  It made the 'test' an actual part of elven roleplay.  It made finding comraderie the central part of elven survival, but only in the case they earn it because of how sweet it is to have an elven friend who's on your side.

I don't think it's worth griping about, over and over, when the alternative to open City Elf clans is cooler in the first place.  There is one...ONE city elf clan that has been coded that is actually cool, and it hasn't been open in a good long time.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 24, 2014, 12:35:58 PM
I would now like to note that the lack of coded tribes predates the whole 'can't rp out having a tribe people can join' thing.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Malken on May 24, 2014, 01:14:04 PM
...you guys have gotten spoiled.  There used to be no coded city elf tribes at all.  None.  With the same tribal emphasis.

When was that? For as long as I can remember there were always coded elf tribes in the 'rinth, and more than just one. I can remember as far as halflings hanging out in the Sanctuary and buying healing potions in Tuluk.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 24, 2014, 01:47:32 PM
You're thinking of the one city elf clan, then, which was special application, malken.  As noted, the vast vast majority were not in a coded tribe. Some clans accepted elves in the labyrinth and city, but were far from tribal in nature. I'd be curious to hear which ones you're thinking of.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Malken on May 24, 2014, 01:53:18 PM
You're thinking of the one city elf clan, then, which was special application, malken.  As noted, the vast vast majority were not in a coded tribe. Some clans accepted elves in the labyrinth and city, but were far from tribal in nature. I'd be curious to hear which ones you're thinking of.

I'm trying to think far way back, but my first memory of Armageddon is me playing with some elf Kuraci or Kadius LEADER taking me around in his wagon, so I think that's a bit flawed and things were definitely changed afterward. It feels like the 'rinth has been exactly the same ever since it was created (by that I mean eastsiders being an elf coded clan or two or three), but I'm not a professional Allanaki player, so of course I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong if my memory is, as well.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 24, 2014, 02:02:00 PM
Meh. I don't want to tangle this up. The point I wanted to make was that elves and the elven mentality was both doable and enjoyable without coded tribes. It is a little different, but that is part of the experience.  Maybe I'll type something up when I'm not poking on my phone (I hate phone typing).
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Reiloth on May 24, 2014, 02:28:28 PM
Meh. I don't want to tangle this up. The point I wanted to make was that elves and the elven mentality was both doable and enjoyable without coded tribes. It is a little different, but that is part of the experience.  Maybe I'll type something up when I'm not poking on my phone (I hate phone typing).

I concur with Armaddict -- The one exception in the Labyrinth was the Haruch Kemad, which had a 'shadowy organization' street tribe of its own. Beyond this, the Dairiki, Valuren, and Kanosh were simply flavor. Some people knew their backgrounds and would incorporate it into their PC's backgrounds. No one really ever questioned if you were a Dairiki or Valuren, because why would you lie about it?

I also agree that the elven experience felt a little more Zalanthan to me in this respect before large coded tribes.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 24, 2014, 04:06:21 PM
You're saying that having a coded tribe made elves feel less tribe-like? How?

I think I could see how it would make the game harder, and I suppose that's good to some people, but shouldn't city elves in particular be more accessible to players who haven't spent enough time playing the game to embody the principles of the elven persona? I've been playing for a really long time, and I'll be the first time to admit that I have no idea how to RP an elf correctly. The dwarven persona I have down pat, and I think I could swing the childish thought process of a giant, but the elven mentality eludes me. And not grasping that makes me not want to play an elf for fear of doing it poorly.

A coded clan helps you understand the mores of whatever that clan is for - for instance, Tor allows you to understand what a Scorpion thinks of others and how they carry themselves, the Byn shoves the gritty, dark, hardened nature of hired killers in your face all of the time. This is where I would think a fully fleshed out elven tribe would be of the most assistance. It would provide a base for city elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on May 24, 2014, 04:55:45 PM
Again, soft-coded tribes would elegantly solve all this shit.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 24, 2014, 04:59:09 PM
I did not say coded tribes were bad.  Only that the consistent gripe about not having one were irritating when they are, in actuality, completely unnecessary for the elven role as it is.

Quote
A coded clan helps you understand the mores of whatever that clan is for - for instance, Tor allows you to understand what a Scorpion thinks of others and how they carry themselves, the Byn shoves the gritty, dark, hardened nature of hired killers in your face all of the time. This is where I would think a fully fleshed out elven tribe would be of the most assistance. It would provide a base for city elves.

The difference here is that clans are, for the most part, decidedly non-tribal.  The Tor Scorpions recruit.  They bring people in, start granting goals, and start assigning ranks.  Yes, they teach about the clan.  No, they do not teach what it is to be a warrior, or soldier, they teach how Scorpions are different from others.

For coded tribes to be effective in providing the same education you're speaking of, there will need to be many of them, in which case they will need regulation.  'One coded city elf tribe' doesn't provide education on elven roleplay so much as it provides an easy outlet for social interaction, which is, really, the challenge of the elven role altogether.  They're xenophobes.  They distrust -everyone-.  The tribe is the only way around this distrust, and so whenever I see the coded in clan with easy access, I see a bunch of very trusting elves thrown in together.

Again, I'm not saying this necessarily hurts the elven population, but I'm not saying it helps either.  There's a lot to be gained by thinking everyone is out to get you as an elf, because it teaches you to be out to get everyone else...which is kind of the point.  So.  I am not averse to elven clans, so long as it's more than one.  I'm not averse to coded tribes, so long as it's more than one.  Elves are one of those rare exceptions where consolidation is not necessarily a good thing, and the work involved in maintaining the flavor is quite a bit to ask when it's of minimal benefit aside from a. A coded clan that provides nothing you can't do without the coded clan and b. A way for people to get around the elven mentality, which is distrust, testing, and long term investments in relationships.

Kind of my take on it, which can be argued away (it's not deadset, just kind of my viewpoint as a lover of elven roleplay).
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 24, 2014, 05:07:21 PM
Roleplaying trust tests is not tribal roleplay and when you get down to it, the lack of a city elven tribe in Allanak means any Allanaki city elves are more isolated than breeds, can't trust a single PC character until they've performed a long string of rigorous tests, and are stuck on hardmode++++ in regards to a wide variety of gameplay aspects unless they join the Byn.

Tribes are not a "way to get around the elven mentality" because tribes are a central aspect of the elven mentality.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 24, 2014, 05:24:32 PM
You're not reading it correctly.

Tribes are the elven mentality.  Clans are not.

The two are being made to be the same thing.  They are not.  That is what all of my posts have been regarding.

Edited to add, or rather to reiterate:
My original response came to the complaint that there are no tribes for city elves.  I said, 'hey, you don't need a coded clan to roleplay a tribal city elf'.  That is the issue I'm speaking of, is that mentality which is not very conducive to the elven mentality as a whole, which is outlined in various places throughout documentation, complete with help guides, none of which assume that you should automatically be in a coded clan because you are an elf.  That is an assumption that I am trying to combat with these posts.  Clan does not equal tribe, and tribe does not equal clan, and trying to circumvent the tribe with the clan will be damaging and unsuccessful to the end goal of tribal roleplay.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 24, 2014, 05:30:52 PM
Staff have explicitly stated that you can't start a group in game and call it a tribe, so without coded tribes, your elf cannot be in a non-virtual tribe.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 24, 2014, 05:33:22 PM
Quote
Roleplaying trust tests is not tribal roleplay and when you get down to it

Also.  This is an intrinsic part of elven roleplay, hence why it is included in the documented guides on 'how to play an elf'.

Likewise, you're trying very hard to split hairs that can't be split.  You can play the tribal mentality of an elf without an entire coded clan for you to sink into, and it has been done for many many years already, with precedence of fantastic, wonderful, and rich elven roleplay that has been observed, created, and enjoyed since at least 1999, when I first started playing elves (without code support).  So.  That is that.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 24, 2014, 05:33:55 PM
Staff have explicitly stated that you can't start a group in game and call it a tribe, so without coded tribes, your elf cannot be in a non-virtual tribe.

Correctamundo, you can't start recruiting family members IC.  That is accurate.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 24, 2014, 07:13:22 PM
So are we in agreement that there are no options for tribes and tribal roleplay for Allanaki elves despite it being a significant part of their documentation?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 24, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
...


...


Nevermind.  No longer worth it.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 24, 2014, 07:19:48 PM
I'm trying to understand where you're coming from and I can't because you seem to be ignoring a a significant portion of elven documentation and focusing on xenophobia and trust
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 24, 2014, 07:35:15 PM
While it does pose a tremendous handicap, all the xenophobia and lack of coded tribes, this is in place for balance considerations, to keep Nakki city elves from conquering the known. :P
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 24, 2014, 07:36:59 PM
but that's wrong

it's in place because staff said something vague about reworking the documentation of the Jaxa Pah several months ago and are either still working on it or forgot about it
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: CodeMaster on May 24, 2014, 08:12:42 PM
I can kind of see where both sides of this are coming from.  Disorganized rambling to follow.

There's this scene in House of Cards (season 1, episode 10 maybe?) where Frank Underwood is engaged in conflict with every single person he knows including his wife.  After being updated by his assistant on all these parallel games he's playing, he asks his assistant if he wants to play chess - like "hey how about you be my opponent too?"

(http://mattise.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/screen-shot-2014-01-19-at-2-42-50-pm.png)

His assistant is just like "no thanks" and leaves.  It's a great exchange and, to me, one of Underwood's defining moments.  I guess my point is that Frank Underwood is like a city elf.  He's out to one up everyone, game the system to the hilt, and never quite lets anyone see behind the mask.  He wouldn't really be the same character with a "tribe" to fall back on. 

And yeah, he's playing hardmode+++.

This xenophobic distrust is currently one of the most pronounced facets of playing a city elf, and I think Armaddict's point is that if it were easy to just slot yourself into "the Allanak tribe", this facet of play is at risk of being diminished or extinguished.

But, I also understand why people are clamoring for the opportunities to play tribal city elves.  If you're not prepared for the role, you might think being a city elf revolves around being scowled at, being neck-lifted by half-giant soldiers during interrogations, being told to "move on", and being rejected from all(?) the clans.  Yipee!  (It's not that bad, but it can look that bad.)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: valeria on May 24, 2014, 08:15:47 PM
I don't know what would be stopping someone from putting in a family role request for a group of related elves if they wanted to have people against whom to play the family aspect of elven racial roleplay.  Is there something prohibiting that that I'm unaware of?

I've always played my elves like I would play a dwarf who had a focus of "do what is best for the tribe" and a subfocus of "especially by taking things to which we're not entitled."
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 24, 2014, 08:28:21 PM
You can app a family of elves but you can't call it a tribe

Yeah I don't understand either
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: CodeMaster on May 24, 2014, 08:48:43 PM
I will add, if city elves are lacking anywhere, it's that they miss out on some of the OOC perks of being in a clan.

My impression (which may not be accurate) is that the clan-initiated get a web board to privately organize playing times, an OOC rumor board to write fun rumors on, a store room to pile your junk in, gate guards, consistent access to sparring partners in a safe place, goal-oriented social RP, and contracts and quests which are often graciously overseen by staff members who can direct plot arcs.

In Allanak, a city elf can join the Byn and achieve much of this (but the Byn is kind of desert-oriented, so it's not the best fit).  If she doesn't, she has to orchestrate much of this herself, and it's my impression*** that the independents team responsible for city elves has a much hairier job than the southern team responsible for the Byn, so it can be harder to throw achievable "quests" at the short-lived city elves.

***(hopefully this is not unfair, because I love what the staff do)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 25, 2014, 05:10:54 AM
His assistant is just like "no thanks" and leaves.  It's a great exchange and, to me, one of Underwood's defining moments.  I guess my point is that Frank Underwood is like a city elf.  He's out to one up everyone, game the system to the hilt, and never quite lets anyone see behind the mask.  He wouldn't really be the same character with a "tribe" to fall back on. 

And yeah, he's playing hardmode+++.

This xenophobic distrust is currently one of the most pronounced facets of playing a city elf, and I think Armaddict's point is that if it were easy to just slot yourself into "the Allanak tribe", this facet of play is at risk of being diminished or extinguished.


I think the point most people are making is that a big reason why so few people play city elves is that it is hardmode+++ without an actual coded tribe.  I think OOC needs to be separated from IC here.  IC: Elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves, they're supposed to be xenophobic against everyone else not from their tribe (including other elves not from their tribe).  OOC: There can't be any other elves from your virtual tribe in the game that you can actually interact with other than virtually for any sort of support whatsoever, resulting in your character being an elf unto themselves. 

Since the documentation is pretty clear and has been for years that elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves, I don't see why we should be concerned that that facet of play is at risk of being diminished or extinguished.  Unless staff are wanting to make that gameworld change that is, which they haven't indicated at all.  And I don't see why they would because again, hardmode+++.  The city elf player population is and has been ridiculously low compared to IC proportions for basically ever, as has already been pointed out, and I don't see why staff would want to push even more people away from playing them.  And there's always the fact that you could make an elf unto themselves if you really wanted to anyway - your "special" elf could just be the insane paranoid one that doesn't trust anyone at all (not even their own tribe members have passed whatever ridiculous standard of tests this elf has?).

Armaddict was trying to make the point that tribe =/= clan.  But to me this is creating a divide between IC/OOC unnecessarily here.  Yes, we could say that and make that separation.  But why would we want to?  The whole point of the coded clan is all the resulting OOC support, and in order to make this translate to IC support of what an elven tribe should be in the game, tribe should equal clan for city elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 25, 2014, 05:48:25 AM
This guy gets it
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BleakOne on May 25, 2014, 09:02:23 AM
I would support City Elves being given a special allowance for making family role calls and actually allowing them to be called tribes, with the understanding that no new tribe-members can be created for said tribe after the initial group.

I also think they really badly need a clan in each city to be part of, but I think staff know this as well, and are working on it.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: CodeMaster on May 25, 2014, 12:39:39 PM
I think the point most people are making is that a big reason why so few people play city elves is that it is hardmode+++ without an actual coded tribe.  I think OOC needs to be separated from IC here.  IC: Elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves, they're supposed to be xenophobic against everyone else not from their tribe (including other elves not from their tribe).  OOC: There can't be any other elves from your virtual tribe in the game that you can actually interact with other than virtually for any sort of support whatsoever, resulting in your character being an elf unto themselves. 

Since the documentation is pretty clear and has been for years that elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves...

I will nitpick this point because the docs are a bit conflicting on it.  Sorry. :)  From the elven roleplay helpfile:

Quote
Tribeless elves, armed with their overwhelming distrust for anyone but themselves, will likely find much reason to apply tests to determine those that are loyal, and those that are not.

This suggests, to me, that tribeless city elves aren't that much of an anomoly.  It could be explained ICly by saying that the city has had a fragmenting, deracinating effect on the elven population, or whatever.  But I can see where you're coming from because you also get passages like this (at the very start of the helpfile!):

Quote
To an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf. While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe...

Since the former is effectively (if not ICly) the situation the player population is in, it seemed worth pointing out that the lone elf is not in direct conflict with the documents.

...I don't see why we should be concerned that that facet of play is at risk of being diminished or extinguished.  Unless staff are wanting to make that gameworld change that is, which they haven't indicated at all.  And I don't see why they would because again, hardmode+++.

I can see your point here, but you can see mine (and what I believe was one of Armaddict's points) - even if you think it's moot.  Pointing it out helps other players see the use of the status quo (and apparently how the elves operated in 1999)...

Quote
  "In the matter of reforming things [...] there is [...] a principle
  which will probably be called a paradox. There exists [...]  a fence
  or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes
  gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear
  it away."  To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do
  well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't
  let you clear it away.  Go away and think.  Then, when you can come
  back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to
  destroy it." --G K Chesterton

Feel free to pull rank on me here, but this is the approach I'm trying to take in this discussion.  I'm really not strongly arguing one way or the other.

The city elf player population is and has been ridiculously low compared to IC proportions for basically ever, as has already been pointed out, and I don't see why staff would want to push even more people away from playing them.  And there's always the fact that you could make an elf unto themselves if you really wanted to anyway - your "special" elf could just be the insane paranoid one that doesn't trust anyone at all (not even their own tribe members have passed whatever ridiculous standard of tests this elf has?).

I see your point.  But you can see mine.

Armaddict was trying to make the point that tribe =/= clan.  But to me this is creating a divide between IC/OOC unnecessarily here.  Yes, we could say that and make that separation.  But why would we want to?  The whole point of the coded clan is all the resulting OOC support, and in order to make this translate to IC support of what an elven tribe should be in the game, tribe should equal clan for city elves.

That was one of his points that I agree with less.  I agree with you in this case: clans do confer some really sweet OOC benefits that could alleviate elven hardmode syndrome (see my post above).

If it were up to me, though, I'd inflict hardmode+++ on everyone else, rather than soften up the playability of elves. :)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 25, 2014, 01:11:26 PM
If it were up to me, though, I'd inflict hardmode+++ on everyone else, rather than soften up the playability of elves. :)

Reduce elves to hardmode++ and you'll see that exact thing take place.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: racurtne on May 25, 2014, 01:20:14 PM
If it were up to me, though, I'd inflict hardmode+++ on everyone else, rather than soften up the playability of elves. :)

Reduce elves to hardmode++ and you'll see that exact thing take place.

 :D
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Zoan on May 25, 2014, 05:53:43 PM
I prefer New Game+ when I play City Elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 25, 2014, 07:21:51 PM
I prefer New Game+ when I play City Elves.

World destroying defiler theme music... the other one gets "Pokey Means Business"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpaJulksCik

Fight the power.

EDIT: Everyone wants to kill a god... those brought up on Final Fantasy all know this is the final goal... nevermind you won't! It's the struggle! Fight!
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 26, 2014, 02:57:37 AM
I think the point most people are making is that a big reason why so few people play city elves is that it is hardmode+++ without an actual coded tribe.  I think OOC needs to be separated from IC here.  IC: Elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves, they're supposed to be xenophobic against everyone else not from their tribe (including other elves not from their tribe).  OOC: There can't be any other elves from your virtual tribe in the game that you can actually interact with other than virtually for any sort of support whatsoever, resulting in your character being an elf unto themselves. 

Since the documentation is pretty clear and has been for years that elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves...

I will nitpick this point because the docs are a bit conflicting on it.  Sorry. :)  From the elven roleplay helpfile:

Quote
Tribeless elves, armed with their overwhelming distrust for anyone but themselves, will likely find much reason to apply tests to determine those that are loyal, and those that are not.

This suggests, to me, that tribeless city elves aren't that much of an anomoly.  It could be explained ICly by saying that the city has had a fragmenting, deracinating effect on the elven population, or whatever.  But I can see where you're coming from because you also get passages like this (at the very start of the helpfile!):

Quote
To an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf. While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe...

Since the former is effectively (if not ICly) the situation the player population is in, it seemed worth pointing out that the lone elf is not in direct conflict with the documents.


True - maybe your elf had his or her tribe murderized recently, so now they are actually an elf unto themselves.  Or your elf was cast out from their old tribe, or whatever.  The staff can't wave some kind of magic want to prevent those kinds of stories from turning out in the gameworld, because to do so would be unrealistic.  But any elf in that position is supposed to be trying to get into a tribe if they're tribeless, because for elves tribe=life.  The tests tribeless elves are running are IMO in part, them trying to determine who might be worthy of being in a tribe with again.  I believe that is the point that the docs are trying to make.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 26, 2014, 05:45:15 AM
There's that, and then there's tribeless elves banding together for a new tribe, eventually. Unfortunately, no pc can do so.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: CodeMaster on May 26, 2014, 12:06:50 PM
But any elf in that position is supposed to be trying to get into a tribe if they're tribeless, because for elves tribe=life.  The tests tribeless elves are running are IMO in part, them trying to determine who might be worthy of being in a tribe with again.  I believe that is the point that the docs are trying to make.

I haven't read anything about city elves having a compulsion to get into a tribe when they're independent... but I think you raise a really good point:

Previous discussions I've read on this topic suggest to me that the staff's stance is that "tribes" can only emerge after a generation or two of trust in a cohesive family unit (but my memory might be foggy, and I don't have a link handy).

So, should Joe Eastside have a yearning to assemble a trusted "inner circle" that might one day lead to a tribe?  It seems like the answer should be yes, otherwise tribes wouldn't be a "thing".

The thing that makes this interesting is that this inner circle is so hard to create, because everyone's constantly testing and trying everyone else and assuming the worst of them.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: FantasyWriter on May 26, 2014, 12:30:31 PM
I guess, in that case, the trick would be to live long enough to have children become non-virtual PCs.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Harmless on May 26, 2014, 03:17:40 PM
I haven't played a city elf in a while, but I have played both in the Akai and tribeless city elves.

I enjoyed both.

The raison d'ętre for this thread is to incept or compell the staff into making a new city elf tribe. I don't disagree with that in general, but would be a lot more into the idea of it if it was something built from the ground up, which might mean yes, living long enough to have non-virtual PC children.

If there was some cause, some justification for elves to band together more, a reason that was based entirely on IC events and was lasting, then this might already be happening now.. but I don't know of anything and if it does exist, please don't spoil it in this thread. Just go out and be the change already.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 26, 2014, 04:00:21 PM
Real talk the odds of elves with no coded clan support living long enough in the labyrinth to have non virtual kids: zero.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Harmless on May 26, 2014, 04:01:29 PM
I agree. There's maybe 3 players in the game at a time who are actively playing city elves that long lived. And I bet they'd rather store than bother trying to make a tribe from scratch.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 26, 2014, 04:12:13 PM
I'd love to try and in all probability fail to make a tribe. The problem doesn't lie so much in willingness as much as it does in people not being allowed to recruit into/form their own tribes.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 26, 2014, 06:28:17 PM
All I can say is there might or might not just be a few someones trying to be the change. Followed with the obligatory "Find out IC".
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 26, 2014, 06:33:19 PM
The thing that makes this interesting is that this inner circle is so hard to create, because everyone's constantly testing and trying everyone else and assuming the worst of them.

Hence, hardmode+++.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on May 26, 2014, 06:55:02 PM
All I can say is there might or might not just be a few someones trying to be the change. Followed with the obligatory "Find out IC".

Look man, there's no "be the change" when staff have explicitly said that forming new tribes isn't allowed. You can form a close circle of trusted friends but it'll never grow into a tribe.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 26, 2014, 06:56:33 PM
It would be neat if staff would clarify whether or not a new Allanaki c-elf clan/tribe/whateveryouwanttocallit is still on the way.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on May 26, 2014, 06:57:16 PM
btw, I respect and admire the aforementioned long-lived elves. Kudos for persevering.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: FantasyWriter on May 26, 2014, 07:50:48 PM
A crew of c-elves (munane, gick or some combination there of) would do well to start in Red Storm. It would solve a lot of the problems with PCs singling out elves in Nak and tracking them down with a vengence. Think indoor raiders.  Live in Storm, once in a while, when the weather clears, they travel to Nak, spent a few in-game days fucking over all the roundears there, then foot it back to Storm (like gypsies but with pointed ears). Seriously. If you guys ever see me post a call for an elven family....
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 26, 2014, 08:07:41 PM
All I can say is there might or might not just be a few someones trying to be the change. Followed with the obligatory "Find out IC".

Look man, there's no "be the change" when staff have explicitly said that forming new tribes isn't allowed. You can form a close circle of trusted friends but it'll never grow into a tribe.

Pretty sure the no new tribe/clan policy went away with the death of 2.0.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 26, 2014, 08:17:29 PM
I don't know if staff would go for that but I guess there's nothing to stop someone from creating a player-created tribe in the vein of the Akai where unclanned elves can join up.

There is, actually. We currently don't allow tribe-calls via players. We had abuse of this in the past, which lead to family roles requiring previous approval. The terminology difference between tribe and family may seem blurry -- especially where elves are concerned. It's something we have discussed in the past, but this is current policy as it stands.

I suppose technically your elf could start a tribe, but there doesn't seem to be enough of a PC presence in the city elf population to warrant this ever really coming about. It looks like a catch 22, at times -- players imagine a world where city elves are a more playable race, but the niche that elves fit via documentation doesn't allow for most of that.

I suppose a question I have is -- Do players enjoy playing city elves enough to warrant these kinds of changes? I played several city-elves in the past, both in the Labyrinth and Allanak, and didn't have much trouble playing to the documentation and having a great time. They are a difficult race to get into, but i'm unsure if broad changes to the race as a whole are going to solve the problem for some people. Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Asche on May 26, 2014, 08:44:33 PM
After reading the documentation, I personally just arrive at the conclusion that the in-game structure does not accomodate city elves in the PC capacity. Playing one would feel like a chore. Also, adopting humans into your tribe should be an incredibly rare occurrence few elves would even consider. It shouldn't be the backbone of your RP with them.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: valeria on May 27, 2014, 09:27:45 PM
I don't know if staff would go for that but I guess there's nothing to stop someone from creating a player-created tribe in the vein of the Akai where unclanned elves can join up.

There is, actually. We currently don't allow tribe-calls via players. We had abuse of this in the past, which lead to family roles requiring previous approval. The terminology difference between tribe and family may seem blurry -- especially where elves are concerned. It's something we have discussed in the past, but this is current policy as it stands.

I suppose technically your elf could start a tribe, but there doesn't seem to be enough of a PC presence in the city elf population to warrant this ever really coming about. It looks like a catch 22, at times -- players imagine a world where city elves are a more playable race, but the niche that elves fit via documentation doesn't allow for most of that.

I suppose a question I have is -- Do players enjoy playing city elves enough to warrant these kinds of changes? I played several city-elves in the past, both in the Labyrinth and Allanak, and didn't have much trouble playing to the documentation and having a great time. They are a difficult race to get into, but i'm unsure if broad changes to the race as a whole are going to solve the problem for some people. Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?

I don't take from this that a PC elf tribe could never be a player construct.  The way I read this, you can't just start a "tribe" and invite all your OOC friends to come play as "family" to your elf.  You can't recruit for your tribe on the boards or whatever.  You'd either need a preapproved family role, or to completely build a tribe ICly.  And in either case, don't expect staff support.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 27, 2014, 09:31:52 PM
You cannot recruit in to your tribe, period.

So to clarify, a group of elves, family app or otherwise, could congregate in-game and call themselves a the Fuckwood Crew and do all their hunting and killing and drinking and fucking and whatever else, but they can't call themselves the Fuckwood Tribe?

Correct; this is an OOC restriction on PC roles.  Inevitably, someone in the Fuckwood "Tribe" will try to recruit someone else into their tribe.  Perhaps they will get a mate, and say "well my mate is actually part of the tribe now, that's how the tribe works," and then we're stuck dealing with at least a couple of players that have made things incredibly awkward to handle IC.  And yes, we do have to deal with it, because endlessly perpetuating tribes is the same problem as endlessly perpetuating families.

If you want to play a member of a tribe that does recruit under controlled conditions that are laid out carefully and approved by staff, you have limited options.  At this time, I think it's fair to say that we do not feel that the ability to recruit people into a tribal role is integral to a tribal role, so that's why it is rare in-game in the cases where it is allowed (and otherwise disallowed/not part of the documentation/reserved for the most rare of occurrences).
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 27, 2014, 10:43:25 PM
See, that's where I view things differently.

Essentially, elves doing that long term relationship thing that I've been talking about, with testing and what not, ends up in a 'tribe', it's just not a tribal structure.  They still treat these people as other elves treat their tribe, though.  This often happens with long lived elves in clans, which is where elves become crazy good employees (if they don't fuck you over early and they fall in with everyone, they're deathly loyal).

So while you can't recruit into an -actual- tribe, you -do- end up in a tribal play scenario.  That is the area where our thought paths are diverging.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 27, 2014, 11:34:54 PM
nope

it's a crew scenario

no tribe scenario
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 27, 2014, 11:44:20 PM
I'm a little confused. If someone passes all your trust tests are they considered part of your tribe? I figured you just trust them now, not nearly the level of trust elven tribe members share, but on par with that long-time friends humans can make.

Armaddict seems to be saying that if they pass all your trust tests they're essentially among your tribe. I haven't read the elf docs in a long enough time to really know if that's true.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 28, 2014, 12:51:46 AM
I'm a little confused. If someone passes all your trust tests are they considered part of your tribe? I figured you just trust them now, not nearly the level of trust elven tribe members share, but on par with that long-time friends humans can make.

Armaddict seems to be saying that if they pass all your trust tests they're essentially among your tribe. I haven't read the elf docs in a long enough time to really know if that's true.


I see it this way too.

Ye Olde Levels of Elf Trust
a stranger >> the crap on your boots > a stranger that has passed a trust test > a stranger that has passed a lot of trust tests > ( you > your tribe member ) *these are the people in your tribe
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 28, 2014, 01:55:23 AM
...you guys have got to be trolling me.

Backing out, yet again.  More productive to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Spider on May 28, 2014, 01:56:31 AM
Once a party passes the elven loyalty tests, the elf then passes the tribal mentality to that party. This includes complete and utter loyalty to that party, as well as the expectation of the same in return.  Do note that the elf also expects tests to be performed by the other party onto them as well.  

The final test of the process is generally a situation where the elf puts them-self into a real life threatening situation, and then asks the other party to put them-self into a real life threatening situation to get them out of it. It doesn't matter what race the other is, such a form of loyalty and selfless behavior is enough to convince the elf to put their full trust in that party.

Is this an actual tribe? In my opinion, it is to the elf.  There might not be a fancy name to it, or a long history of blood-lines, but a tribe and this companionship, as far as their nature, are indistinguishable.



Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Reiloth on May 28, 2014, 02:11:23 AM
Once a party passes the elven loyalty tests, the elf then passes the tribal mentality to that party. This includes complete and utter loyalty to that party, as well as the expectation of the same in return.  Do note that the elf also expects tests to be performed by the other party onto them as well.  

The final test of the process is generally a situation where the elf puts them-self into a real life threatening situation, and then asks the other party to put them-self into a real life threatening situation to get them out of it. It doesn't matter what race the other is, such a form of loyalty and selfless behavior is enough to convince the elf to put their full trust in that party.

Is this an actual tribe? In my opinion, it is to the elf.  There might not be a fancy name to it, or a long history of blood-lines, but a tribe and this companionship, as far as their nature, are indistinguishable.





Truf.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on May 28, 2014, 02:18:04 AM
Yes, we all know that city elves can form strong bonds with other elves and even other races and that forming such a group can be very satisfying roleplay for all involved. You want that, you roll up a tribeless elf. I love them.

As an elf, I love even more to be a part of an extended family with strongly established customs and traditions. It doesn't have to be a super powerful entity that controls all the crime in the city. It doesn't even need to have a coded building.

I really don't understand the argument that forming a tribe crew from scratch is the essential part of elven experience when it's only one part of it.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 28, 2014, 02:22:48 AM
That has never really made sense to me.

Elf puts himself in mortal danger just to figure out if he can trust someone with his life in mortal situations... That elf is a fucking moron, and deserves to die in a world as harsh as zalanthas.

Now the much more natural situation where someone saves your life at the possible expense of their own? That can happen to anyone, and has nothing to do with tribal nature or tests of trust, imo.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: MeTekillot on May 28, 2014, 02:23:00 AM
You're not forming a tribe, you're forming a crew. No tribes allowed
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 28, 2014, 02:24:59 AM
That has never really made sense to me.

Elf puts himself in mortal danger just to figure out if he can trust someone with his life in mortal situations... That elf is a fucking moron, and deserves to die in a world as harsh as zalanthas.
Well, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be mortal danger in the eyes of the testee, but the tester is sure of his ability to survive whatever this situation is.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 28, 2014, 02:25:53 AM
That has never really made sense to me.

Elf puts himself in mortal danger just to figure out if he can trust someone with his life in mortal situations... That elf is a fucking moron, and deserves to die in a world as harsh as zalanthas.
Well, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be mortal danger in the eyes of the testee, but the tester is sure of his ability to survive whatever this situation is.

That sounds like is has probably never happened...
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 28, 2014, 03:37:51 AM
I've got several ideas regarding the sorts of tests in which that could happen, even via code.

Hmm, maybe I should play an elf.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: MeTekillot on May 28, 2014, 03:49:11 AM
go ahead! just no tribes.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Reiloth on May 28, 2014, 04:51:32 AM
Don't be a dick.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 28, 2014, 04:58:10 AM
He's just pointing out the current policies and options for city elves who aren't in the Akai.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 28, 2014, 05:28:47 AM
That's all city elves. The Akai are closed.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Reiloth on May 28, 2014, 05:29:51 AM
Edited to not play GDB.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: FantasyWriter on May 28, 2014, 06:34:32 AM
Just don't call them a tribe in your character report and you should be fine. ;)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dakota on May 28, 2014, 07:17:54 AM
That's all city elves. The Akai are closed.

Akai are open according to the website...
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Barsook on May 28, 2014, 07:20:30 AM
But not when you request the docs, I think.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dresan on May 28, 2014, 07:49:43 AM
I think making new tribes or clans might not be the best way to go with c-elves. Adding tribes would elevate them into their own distinct group, with their own goals and focus their tribes would need leaders and attention or else they would be boring to be in. It does sound interesting but with the current tribes that exsist in the world being dead or closed I think taking another approach is best. A few modest tweeks and changes to the docs would bring them in line, alongside dwarves and half-elves.


1. Remove the concept of theiving from their personality. They can still be considered theives and con artists by most humans due to racism. They are a smart race, they are often trying to use their heads to get an advantage. On top of that with their low social order and not many opportunities to survive its only natural that some of these agile creatures take to stealing. Still it shouldn't be something they are by nature.

2. Unlike their desert cousins, city-elves seek out and find their own 'tribe' when they come of age. Sometimes this mean returning home after they leave, other time it means going solo searching for many years before they find a group they can trust and dedicate themselves to.  

3. Once the thieving aspect is removed and their tribe mentality shifted a little then it would make sense to open the last two GMHs to them. Everyone would know that hiring an elf potentially makes for a very fiercely loyal employee should they decide to stay with you. No respectable noble house nor militia would hire them though.


Just these small little changes would make them infinitely more playable without much work at all. I don't see them being as liked as dwarves but not as looked down upon as half-elves. I just noticed this is an old thread, so i might have suggested this idea already.  ;D

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on May 28, 2014, 08:18:04 AM
Players of elves don't want or need to be 'liked'.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Quell on May 28, 2014, 08:44:27 AM
Players of elves don't want or need to be 'liked'.

I don't think that was the point of his post, if that's what you were referring to. It seemed like the point was to open up new avenues for city elves to join organizations. The change to make them secretly not that thieving, probably isn't going to do much for their reputation with the world as a whole. Just the people that get to know them really well.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Delirium on May 28, 2014, 09:05:36 AM
I like Dresan's suggestions.  Sometimes I think the documentation takes too much of a hardline stance and ends up stifling interaction between PCs. If we could massage it into fostering conflict AND interaction without overly segregating the playerbase, that would be ideal.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on May 28, 2014, 09:30:37 AM
I don't think that was the point of his post, if that's what you were referring to. It seemed like the point was to open up new avenues for city elves to join organizations.

I got his point. Mine was that if I roll up an elf I want to actually belong to an elven group, not join GMHs.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Delirium on May 28, 2014, 09:31:38 AM
Nobody would be forcing you to do so. It would simply be another avenue available.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on May 28, 2014, 09:42:39 AM
No, it would be the only avenue available since we don't have tribes. If an effort was made to change elves I would prefer that it goes toward making tribes workable.

and, honestly, I don't get what made Jaxa Pah unworkable. It's not that they were running the city.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Narf on May 28, 2014, 10:31:50 AM
I like Dresan's suggestions.  Sometimes I think the documentation takes too much of a hardline stance and ends up stifling interaction between PCs. If we could massage it into fostering conflict AND interaction without overly segregating the playerbase, that would be ideal.

The documentation probably takes a hardline stance to counteract viewpoints of PC exceptionalism.

The problem any game runs into when it talks about exceptions to the rule is that the PC's will turn that exception into the new rule. One way to deal with that is to pretend like there aren't any exceptions, even when you deep down realize that this doesn't make any sense. This solution creates a lot of issues with realism, but I can't say I've ever come up with a better way to deal with the problem it addresses.

And I want to be clear: I'm not talking about this from on high, I actually represent the (probably sizable) portion of the player base that enjoys playing exceptions. So when I say I can't come up with a way to address the problem that creates, I'm speaking with an insiders perspective. I don't know how staff could give me what I want to play without risking everyone else seeing how cool it was, and suffering Drizzt-syndrome.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Spider on May 28, 2014, 08:01:52 PM
No, it would be the only avenue available since we don't have tribes. If an effort was made to change elves I would prefer that it goes toward making tribes workable.

and, honestly, I don't get what made Jaxa Pah unworkable. It's not that they were running the city.

In my opinion, some of the documentation for that tribe was in purposeful contradiction with elven roleplay, and IG that contradiction didn't work out as expected.  I do believe Staff has said it is closed to work out some kinks anyway, so I imagine they will return again one day.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: bracken on May 29, 2014, 05:31:17 AM
Just don't call them a tribe in your character report and you should be fine. ;)

That T-word.
If  I call for a family of c-elves. Presumably we are a fragment of a triibe, a tribe almost lost, or filled out by virtual cuzzies.
The family PC's can say they are of the Midden maker Tribe?
Suppose miraculously our fragment survives for a fair while, long enough to gather a few more , after arduous testing. (I can dream)
Can "Tribe" be mentioned?
Or do we find another word from the Narrows to replace it.

The nature of elves suggests that a family based crew is more than a crew, even if it's fate is non-existence.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: spicemustflow on May 29, 2014, 05:41:44 AM
No, it would be the only avenue available since we don't have tribes. If an effort was made to change elves I would prefer that it goes toward making tribes workable.

and, honestly, I don't get what made Jaxa Pah unworkable. It's not that they were running the city.

In my opinion, some of the documentation for that tribe was in purposeful contradiction with elven roleplay, and IG that contradiction didn't work out as expected.  I do believe Staff has said it is closed to work out some kinks anyway, so I imagine they will return again one day.

I think I know what you mean, but I was under impression that it was closed for other reasons. The original Jaxa docs from early 2010 didn't have those kinks, IMO. It would be easy to rollback to that.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dresan on May 29, 2014, 08:11:49 AM
I was thinking more about city elves and wondered what would happen to the game if suddenly 80% of the mud decided to roll one. This would be putting aside population documentation because people are allowed to role what they want so this is looking more at a gameplay experience.  

With humans, things would go on normally. If people mostly rolled dwarves, think would still go on normally with only a couple  clans suffering a tad. You'd still have a human leader followed by a group of dwarves. If people mostly rolled half-elves the game would still go on normally. Some clan suffer a tad more but not by much since some half-elves would just look human. I don't think the same can be said about elves. Imagine human byn sergeant with a unit full of elves being asked for an escort mission accross the known or to do any of the routine tasks/contracts the byn are asked to do outside the city. What about kurac, asked to escort a merchant to redstorm. Even if the jaxa pah and akai opened those would be the only two clans thriving in either city state, everything else would come to a stand still.


I don't think this race should be so gimped that people need only to choose them in order to begin shutting down the world. It is almost comical that they can't even effectively participate in all the activity the two clans they can join offer. At this point, it is not only a documentation issue but coding one too. They need some more love and changes in order to make them a cool race to play. Even if documentation changes allow them to join more clans, I feel the race itself still needs just a little bit more to make them as enjoyable to play as any of the other races.

My coded suggestion would be giving them desert WALK. This would allow them to walk through the desert more effectively then other races but it would not as effectively in both speed and stamina drain as being able to run like their cousins. This ability would allow them to hunt around cities, or get from allanak to luirs more effectively. If you want to hunt in the thornlands, hunt deep in the pah or the valley or just explore the world a human/dwarf/half-elf ranger should still be the way to go. City elves would still not get the option to role rangers. In the wilds mounted combat is still king and charge an awesome skill to have.City elves being able to walk around would allow them to participate in the same things other races do a little bit more. Of course there are the normal draw backs, being on foot is more dangerous, fleeing is exhausting, sneaking is exhausting. I think a change like this along side the documentation changes I propose would make them an all around fun unique race to pick while still not making them require karma.

In their current state though I feel we need to do to bring more attention to the city elves is just to begin rolling them in higher numbers. All the clans including the ones elves can join would begin to suffer.  Roll an elf (2014).    :P 


 
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Reiloth on May 29, 2014, 01:34:58 PM
I don't think it's like a 'Don't buy gas for a day' conspiracy. I think city-elves have their problems, but if the whole player base rolled dwarves, half-giants, or half-elves, you'd see similar problems in different arenas. Noble Houses would all be shut down, and without Nobles as an economy fluid for the player base, you'd see everyone playing an Indy or in the GMH's. It'd be a pretty boring PvE game. Hunting, skinning, selling products to people, more hunting, skinning...Not to say that Nobles are the be all end all of fun for the game, but you'd also have a lack of Templars, and minions.

If anything, I think the population count of Elves could be dropped in the documentation, from 60% or whatever to 20%. That might reflect the lack of popularity in playing elves, and massage the need to address these perceived issues.

Because honestly, fuck elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 29, 2014, 02:03:10 PM
That is the opposite of problem solving. "Nobody is playing elves, well, let's make the documentation reflect that then and just delete elves."
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 29, 2014, 02:10:11 PM
Removing even virtual power from a race that's already awfully weak, in pc terms. Right. Bet that'd improve the game.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Reiloth on May 29, 2014, 02:24:02 PM
I'm just throwing out the facist 'problem deletion' scenario for kicks.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Malken on May 29, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
Might as well just replace 'elf' with 'goblins', would make a lot more sense.

In every RPGs ever, goblins are weak, numerous and live in filth and are proud of it (our city elves).

Then people would at least know what they're getting themselves into when they play a city goblin and expectations wouldn't be as high as when they think they're playing an "elf", since the elf documentation really doesn't work well in a game where it's nearly impossible to count on virtual numbers and backings.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 29, 2014, 02:35:38 PM
Might as well just replace 'elf' with 'goblins', would make a lot more sense.

In every RPGs ever, goblins are weak, numerous and live in filth and are proud of it.

Then people would at least know what they're getting themselves into when they play a city goblin and expectations wouldn't be as high as when they think they're playing an "elf", since the elf documentation really doesn't work well in a game where it's nearly impossible to count on virtual numbers and backings.

Keep elves, add city-goblins, feck, city-gith! Half-gith! Finally, something to hate more than breeds and elves! OMG elf I hate you, but I hate that goblin and his gith mate more, let's team up on them!
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 29, 2014, 02:40:58 PM
I've seen half-gith get more gainful employment than city elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 29, 2014, 02:56:19 PM
I don't think flavor tweakings and virtual power is what elves need at all. Elves need no tweaks, there has to be a straight up boost. Slight alterations just aren't going to cut it.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 29, 2014, 03:00:38 PM
I don't think flavor tweakings and virtual power is what elves need at all. Elves need no tweaks, there has to be a straight up boost. Slight alterations just aren't going to cut it.

"As an expansion on the elven hive mind idea, all City Elf Pcs now have the ability to target PCs that abuse them with 'reverse crim code,' which will cause elven NPCs to seek out and attack that PC."
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 29, 2014, 03:33:59 PM
City mantis elves OP
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Malken on May 29, 2014, 03:35:41 PM
I still don't understand why the 'rinthi elf clan was closed down. I'd like an official answer on that.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 29, 2014, 03:47:18 PM
I like to pretend the ominous staff silence on this topic is the subject of an intense revamp effort and staff are waiting to unleash new elf tribes on us any day now


I can dream
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 29, 2014, 03:52:24 PM
They did just say they greenlit something. It was around the time we were starting this whine on elves, but also around the time someone was talking about more Allanak love, so who knows.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: mattrious on May 29, 2014, 04:44:17 PM
I am uncertain if this has already been posted in this thread, but I think it should be said: Be The Change

There are a handful of active clans/tribes that were actually created by players and not staff members. Does it take time? Absolutely. Though, imagine how rewarding it is to create your own family (tribe) with detailed documentation and the like? Get permission to put in a family role call and create a family of city-elves.

Also, I would like to note that while the "Jaxa Pah" is a coded clan - it's not actually a tribe.  It's a grouping of families/tribes that are working together for one common goal (survival in the Labyrinth).

Make a new family and convince the Jaxa Pah your family could be beneficial to them and are worthy of the other families protection. I understand the staff are holding back on providing documentation on the various city-elf tribes/families, though there is no reason you could not get ahead in the process. If you make an elven PC and successfully get a family off the ground? I am sure the staff would certainly look to you when revamping documentation.

That is what makes Armageddon such a wonderful game. City-elves are amazing and there are so many awesome pieces of documentation how to play an elf. Put the tests to use. I really hope they're still here in player form but the retired staff member Shalooonsh was amazing when it came to elves in general. They knew how to appropriately 'turn up'.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 29, 2014, 04:49:50 PM
.. You haven't read a post in this thread at all, have you?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: mattrious on May 29, 2014, 04:56:59 PM
.. You haven't read a post in this thread at all, have you?

I've read a few actually. Though, it would appear that a majority of them are whining about the lack of staff support and providing various documentation to said coded clans. I also read how people think that elves would be more enjoyable to play if some of the rules were changed, etc. Oh, let's let them ride. Oh, let's make it so they can easily walk through the desert.

City-elves have morphed into a different breed than their desert-elf cousins. There is a reason that they can not hop through the sands like a happy little cricket.

There is nothing broke here with this race and nothing needs to be addressed in that regard. I see a thread that has 14 pages filled with various different whines and complaints. I am simply stating that you're playing a game that you can make the change. So, make the change. Do I need to read something specific? Please, let me know.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 29, 2014, 05:06:45 PM
You can't add other players to your tribe, and you can't create a tribe with other players.

A tribe is not the same thing as a family. People are complaining about not being able to play tribal city elves. This is what the bulk of the current conversation is surrounding that you seem to have missed.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: mattrious on May 29, 2014, 05:59:15 PM
You can't add other players to your tribe, and you can't create a tribe with other players.

A tribe is not the same thing as a family. People are complaining about not being able to play tribal city elves. This is what the bulk of the current conversation is surrounding that you seem to have missed.


You are incorrect.

This was pulled from the Jaxa Pah help file: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Jaxa%20Pah

Quote
The Jaxa Pah is a tribe of city elves consisting of a few smaller tribal components. This tribe is based out of the eastside of the Labyrinth in Allanak, and has risen to a position of significant influence in recent years, tangling with westsiders, southsiders, and other elven groups.

Three playable families make up the Jaxa Pah: Valuren, Sandas, and Kanosh.

You can in-fact add individuals into the Valuren, Sandas, and Kanosh. There are in-game events that allow all of these tribes/families to bring others into their fold. How do I know? Because, I've had PCs in every one of these families - and they were all recruited in. Are you saying that the Sandas, Valuren, and Kanosh are not actually tribes? Because, I'm certain there are some elves sharpening their knives right now and eagerly awaiting your response.

Again, what have I missed? Just because there are no open hard coded clans at current - does not mean you can not play by the same rules that have been in place for years. People need to quit whining and use the game world to their benefit. The main thing I've taken away from this thread? Whine.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 29, 2014, 06:08:09 PM
I'm incorrect?

So to clarify, a group of elves, family app or otherwise, could congregate in-game and call themselves a the Fuckwood Crew and do all their hunting and killing and drinking and fucking and whatever else, but they can't call themselves the Fuckwood Tribe?

Correct; this is an OOC restriction on PC roles.  Inevitably, someone in the Fuckwood "Tribe" will try to recruit someone else into their tribe.  Perhaps they will get a mate, and say "well my mate is actually part of the tribe now, that's how the tribe works," and then we're stuck dealing with at least a couple of players that have made things incredibly awkward to handle IC.  And yes, we do have to deal with it, because endlessly perpetuating tribes is the same problem as endlessly perpetuating families.

If you want to play a member of a tribe that does recruit under controlled conditions that are laid out carefully and approved by staff, you have limited options.  At this time, I think it's fair to say that we do not feel that the ability to recruit people into a tribal role is integral to a tribal role, so that's why it is rare in-game in the cases where it is allowed (and otherwise disallowed/not part of the documentation/reserved for the most rare of occurrences).

Maybe should stop calling everyone whiners and seek to further understand what the hell they're talking about. Also, Jaxa Pah are closed, and have been for quite some time.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Patuk on May 29, 2014, 06:13:31 PM
I stand by what I posted.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: mattrious on May 29, 2014, 06:30:05 PM
I'm incorrect?

So to clarify, a group of elves, family app or otherwise, could congregate in-game and call themselves a the Fuckwood Crew and do all their hunting and killing and drinking and fucking and whatever else, but they can't call themselves the Fuckwood Tribe?

Correct; this is an OOC restriction on PC roles.  Inevitably, someone in the Fuckwood "Tribe" will try to recruit someone else into their tribe.  Perhaps they will get a mate, and say "well my mate is actually part of the tribe now, that's how the tribe works," and then we're stuck dealing with at least a couple of players that have made things incredibly awkward to handle IC.  And yes, we do have to deal with it, because endlessly perpetuating tribes is the same problem as endlessly perpetuating families.

If you want to play a member of a tribe that does recruit under controlled conditions that are laid out carefully and approved by staff, you have limited options.  At this time, I think it's fair to say that we do not feel that the ability to recruit people into a tribal role is integral to a tribal role, so that's why it is rare in-game in the cases where it is allowed (and otherwise disallowed/not part of the documentation/reserved for the most rare of occurrences).

Maybe should stop calling everyone whiners and seek to further understand what the hell they're talking about. Also, Jaxa Pah are closed, and have been for quite some time.

Damn. Sorry, I missed a post that is nearly a half-a-year old. Though, I'll see your six month old post and raise you one that is....you know what? No. How about this? Make a "group" "family" "gang" "crew" "tribe" "posse" and do whatever the hell you want? Seriously, you're arguing over if you can call your grouping of elves a tribe or family. There are so many ways you can skin this cat that it is truly ridiculous.

So please tell me. What is your beef or argument? You want some hard coded city-elf clans to be opened up? Why? What would these clans do for you that you can not currently achieve? You would have a nice safe place to rest while twinking up your skills? The Red Fang did not have a coded encampment for IRL years and they did just fine without it. Please tell me what it is that you're wanting and why.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dakota on May 29, 2014, 06:32:02 PM
I am uncertain if this has already been posted in this thread, but I think it should be said: Be The Change

I see that in a thread like this and I get more irked than anything. I've tried a lot to be the change with a few different PC's for a few different things (and with my most successful PC, I hope I was).  Frankly I think the climate (at least from 2011-2013) in Arm (in Staff-land) wasn't really open to add in new coded clans or lend staff support for such 'from the ground up' things.

Has that climate changed? I think so and for some odd reason, I'm more optimistic about Arm now that I was in 2011.

But even though I didn't play arm pre-2011... It's a far different place than it was when LoD and HD were running about making tribes and starting revolts and 'being the change'.

But BACK TO C-ELVES... Yes they should have some sort of coded options available to them for tribes or clans in both City States. NO... should they get some sort of boost or massive change in their make up and social placement within the Arm eco-system. They are fucking elves. In the city they steal your coin and babys out of their mothers arms. In the desert they run around like savages, spit fire and scalp the dead.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: mattrious on May 29, 2014, 06:40:13 PM
I am uncertain if this has already been posted in this thread, but I think it should be said: Be The Change

I see that in a thread like this and I get more irked than anything. I've tried a lot to be the change with a few different PC's for a few different things (and with my most successful PC, I hope I was).  Frankly I think the climate (at least from 2011-2013) in Arm (in Staff-land) wasn't really open to add in new coded clans or lend staff support for such 'from the ground up' things.

Has that climate changed? I think so and for some odd reason, I'm more optimistic about Arm now that I was in 2011.

But even though I didn't play arm pre-2011... It's a far different place than it was when LoD and HD were running about making tribes and starting revolts and 'being the change'.

But BACK TO C-ELVES... Yes they should have some sort of coded options available to them for tribes or clans in both City States. NO... should they get some sort of boost or massive change in their make up and social placement within the Arm eco-system. They are fucking elves. In the city they steal your coin and babys out of their mothers arms. In the desert they run around like savages, spit fire and scalp the dead.

Thank you. I mean it's quite possible to be the change, and Armageddon as a game has changed and morphed over the years. Is it possible to bring back the good while pushing out the bad? I am sure it is. This game will still be here when most of the staff have retried and moved on - there is turn over.

I will absolutely agree that coded clans are a nice feature and do make playing a bit easier. Though, I still feel that it should not be the end-all to playing a city-elf. It's not hard to establish this same thing all in-game. If you make a city-elf PC and manage to survive a few IG years? You will certainly have the tools in place to bring others into your fold.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 29, 2014, 07:39:07 PM
I'm incorrect?

So to clarify, a group of elves, family app or otherwise, could congregate in-game and call themselves a the Fuckwood Crew and do all their hunting and killing and drinking and fucking and whatever else, but they can't call themselves the Fuckwood Tribe?

Correct; this is an OOC restriction on PC roles.  Inevitably, someone in the Fuckwood "Tribe" will try to recruit someone else into their tribe.  Perhaps they will get a mate, and say "well my mate is actually part of the tribe now, that's how the tribe works," and then we're stuck dealing with at least a couple of players that have made things incredibly awkward to handle IC.  And yes, we do have to deal with it, because endlessly perpetuating tribes is the same problem as endlessly perpetuating families.

If you want to play a member of a tribe that does recruit under controlled conditions that are laid out carefully and approved by staff, you have limited options.  At this time, I think it's fair to say that we do not feel that the ability to recruit people into a tribal role is integral to a tribal role, so that's why it is rare in-game in the cases where it is allowed (and otherwise disallowed/not part of the documentation/reserved for the most rare of occurrences).

Maybe should stop calling everyone whiners and seek to further understand what the hell they're talking about. Also, Jaxa Pah are closed, and have been for quite some time.

Damn. Sorry, I missed a post that is nearly a half-a-year old. Though, I'll see your six month old post and raise you one that is....you know what? No. How about this? Make a "group" "family" "gang" "crew" "tribe" "posse" and do whatever the hell you want? Seriously, you're arguing over if you can call your grouping of elves a tribe or family. There are so many ways you can skin this cat that it is truly ridiculous.

So please tell me. What is your beef or argument? You want some hard coded city-elf clans to be opened up? Why? What would these clans do for you that you can not currently achieve? You would have a nice safe place to rest while twinking up your skills? The Red Fang did not have a coded encampment for IRL years and they did just fine without it. Please tell me what it is that you're wanting and why.

I want to experience a tribe with my city-elf. I want to go in knowing I've got people behind my back no matter what. I want to play out the idea that the tribe always comes first. This isn't something you can just make happen with random pc elves from varying background over multiple trust tests.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's a difference between an elven tribe and gang, or a family. That's the whole reason why staff have said you can't make a tribe.

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay
To an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf. While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe. You can almost attribute a sort of 'hive mind' to elves, in that most of them consider the welfare of their tribe above their own personal welfare. An elf would tell you that they would give up their own life without hesitation to protect or serve their tribe. Not all of them have that much willpower, but all of them wish they did, and certainly all of them will claim they do.

This is the distinction that makes elves elves in my eyes. And the only way you get to play it out is by making it entirely virtual, you can't involve other pc's.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: HavokBlue on May 29, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
anybody that wants a coded clan to support their character's relevant documentation and make for viable gameplay in an already volatile area of the game is a twink

be the change
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 29, 2014, 08:52:18 PM
Riding a high horse is never a good idea, but riding one in a City Elf thread is just doubly silly.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Jingo on May 29, 2014, 10:11:42 PM
*thread dissolves into a puddle of incomprehensible, distilled e-peen*
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 29, 2014, 11:20:21 PM
Once a party passes the elven loyalty tests, the elf then passes the tribal mentality to that party. This includes complete and utter loyalty to that party, as well as the expectation of the same in return.  Do note that the elf also expects tests to be performed by the other party onto them as well.  

The final test of the process is generally a situation where the elf puts them-self into a real life threatening situation, and then asks the other party to put them-self into a real life threatening situation to get them out of it. It doesn't matter what race the other is, such a form of loyalty and selfless behavior is enough to convince the elf to put their full trust in that party.

Is this an actual tribe? In my opinion, it is to the elf.  There might not be a fancy name to it, or a long history of blood-lines, but a tribe and this companionship, as far as their nature, are indistinguishable.


Apologies that I'm bringing up a bit of an older point here but I wanted to comment on this.

While I don't disagree that elves could potentially get to this end-point in trusting another party, and it certainly a necessary condition in the formation of a new tribe, I do want to make the point that there should be some distinguishing between full blown tribal trust as opposed to tested trust.  I wouldn't say that there might be such a difference between tribal trust and tested trust for another elf, and I don't disagree that other races can be the subject of elven trust tests, but my belief is that elves would be keenly aware that non-elves just don't have that sort of undying loyalty to the tribe that an elf would.  Racism is prevalent in Zalanthas, and elves are certainly subject to it, but would also certainly be propagators of it as well - perhaps to elves, humans are wishy-washy, dwarves are insane, half-giants are just mindless imitating children.  How could any full-blooded elf really fully trust someone like that, even if they've proven themselves temporarily in the short term?  There'd always be that niggling thought in the back of their head - is this mul going to flip out on me today?

I think it's important to keep in mind that incompatible genetics aside, there would presumably never be an elven tribe with any permanence that contained different races for that very reason.  This alone should give reason to distinguish tribe vs. tested trust.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dresan on May 30, 2014, 12:30:07 AM
I don't think it's like a 'Don't buy gas for a day' conspiracy. I think city-elves have their problems, but if the whole player base rolled dwarves, half-giants, or half-elves, you'd see similar problems in different arenas. Noble Houses would all be shut down, and without Nobles as an economy fluid for the player base, you'd see everyone playing an Indy or in the GMH's. It'd be a pretty boring PvE game. Hunting, skinning, selling products to people, more hunting, skinning...Not to say that Nobles are the be all end all of fun for the game, but you'd also have a lack of Templars, and minions.

If anything, I think the population count of Elves could be dropped in the documentation, from 60% or whatever to 20%. That might reflect the lack of popularity in playing elves, and massage the need to address these perceived issues.

Because honestly, fuck elves.

Noble houses and templars would still be run by the sponsored players. Yes some places would suffer, but the clans dwarves and half-elves can join wouldn't suffer at all. It would still be business as usual. The byn would still function normally, and both noble houses and templars could make use of them. Half-giants are three karma due to their insane strength, difficulty of playing and rarity so not everyone can play them anyways. My point is that a byn full of nothing but elves cannot fuction as well as a byn full of dwarves. They would not be able to even take some routine contracts. Kurac Fist full of elves would probably find themselves in similar situation though possibly not as severe.

Changing their documentation, begins risking making them popular. Which in turn potentially leads to suffering across the board due to their inability to paricipate in all their clan activities. The fact that they are so gimped both codedly and through their documentation(required to be thieves of some sort) leads them to being so unpopular. The fact they are so unpopular in turn allows the game to fuction normally and as well as it currently does. This is why I suspect that if we were to petition people to play nothing but city elves for a while it would force some change.  Or more then likely a mysterious disease would spread among them, killing large numbers of them and making them much rarer in cities.Their karma level would be changed to two or three due to their new found rarity and difficulty of play. Though making them rarer would be rather unfortunate when esspecially when the race could be changed to be something more along the lines of dwaves and half-elves.  
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Mendel on May 30, 2014, 12:43:23 AM
Wanted to play a C-elf for my next char so I read the majority of this thread, and another one with staff response about tribes.  Immediately stopped wanting to play a c-elf.

I really don't understand what the 'ideal' roleplay scenario for a c-elf is ATM.  Supposed to have a virtual tribe and roleplay the elven mentaility through solo stuff?  Supposed to make friends with other elves in an informal way, while retaining xenophobia and paranoia?  Supposed to be an indy, somehow integrated into city culture but you have to be a straight up thief cus reasons and docs.  Suposed to ???.  I don't get it.

In light of the vast swathe of opinion spread in this thread, I think the docs need cleaning.  Or the staff needs to make some statements about what exactly is a c-elf's intended role in the game, both IC and OOC.

emote shrugs
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Zoan on May 30, 2014, 12:56:44 AM
Staff is going to release something neat for c-elves, a bunch of rolling apps will come and go, then nobody will care and nobody will play them because humans are prettier/more connected/stronger.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 30, 2014, 12:58:49 AM
I recently gave c-elves a shot(a "long lived" shot, at that) and it left a bitter taste in my mouth, and is basically the basis for my whole argument here.

 Basically I was the only elf around who had been alive for an IC year or longer and had mildy frequent playtimes. All other examples only showed up once or twice a month and could basically be considered non-existent(though I sure as fuck appreciated the few times they would log on, even if they weren't and could never be in my tribe it's nice to see another elf now and again)

I really doubt I'll play another city-elf if there isn't some sort of tribal support. Either in the way of a full fledged coded clan, or in simple background tribes that are staff-endorsed so other players can immediately be in the tribe with you.

Staff is going to release something neat for c-elves,

Don't get our hopes up.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Reiloth on May 30, 2014, 01:05:32 AM
Bitter much?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 30, 2014, 01:13:57 AM
and it left a bitter taste in my mouth,

Definitely bitter. Have you played a c-elf recently? You'd probably be bitter too.

Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 30, 2014, 02:53:38 AM
Instead of thieving elves, elves should be considered the ultimate con-artists, which, uh, includes thieving, but certainly doesn't restrict them to thieving, and doesn't force an elf to play as a thief. The same principles could apply.

Never trust an elf.

If an elf says it costs three hundred, it probably costs two.

If an elf says a runner died on a contract, the truth is that the elf probably killed him, or, that the elf ran and let him die.

If an elf comes in with seven hides, he originally had nine, because he sold two before he arrived back to the storeroom.

If an elf is telling you information, ply him, because he's forgetting to tell you about that one thing, that one time.

Always send an elf to barter, he'll convince the seller that what he's selling is utter shit, and get it back to you for resale at maximum profit.

Always send an elf with your crew - if somebody has to die, it's one less sharp.

Always stay on an elf's good side - he'll figure out a way to fuck you over for life if you don't.

Send an elf to do a spy's work - nobody notices another elf.

Well, somebody has to run the gambling game - and sharps read faces like second nature.

Let an elf ask the prisoner questions. They always know when someone is lying.


The word con-artist opens a vast world to me, where as this whole thief thing forces me to try to understand how to actually do that and not pick pockets or raid houses. I think it allows for soft cons and hard cons, elves who are almost acceptable, and elves who are plain villains.

I also think it allows for elves to have a different image IG, while also allowing them to be semi-acceptable within certain clans. And that, of course, opens up play for them.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: MeTekillot on May 30, 2014, 02:58:57 AM
I thought con-artistry was kinda already the schtick of elves that don't get skill_steal?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 30, 2014, 03:00:32 AM
A bunch of cool con artist stuff.

See, I recall there being an elven roleplay page that I am constantly referencing in my head when I talk about these things, but I can't find it.  At all, it's like it poofed, was on the old gdb, or I completely made it up in the most real way possible.

However, that entire outlook you talked about right there was part of it, that 'steal' was not the most common way for an elf to steal from you.  They're manipulators.  They're just always looking to be out on top.  That was major realization in my first couple elves that changed the way I viewed them, and I started to enjoy them.  It's not that I constantly made cons...it's that I was constantly -looking- to make the cons.

I thought con-artistry was kinda already the schtick of elves that don't get skill_steal?

...city elves get steal as a racial skill.  Unless that changed at some point.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 30, 2014, 03:01:10 AM
I thought con-artistry was kinda already the schtick of elves that don't get skill_steal?
Sometime I try to joke but am instead condescending. I think that might have been one of those times. Edited.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: MeTekillot on May 30, 2014, 03:30:28 AM

I thought con-artistry was kinda already the schtick of elves that don't get skill_steal?

...city elves get steal as a racial skill.  Unless that changed at some point.

But do they get sleight of hand?

close pack

EDIT: put all bag;put bag pack;close pack

sneaky pickpockets can't get me now ;0)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Rathustra on May 30, 2014, 03:57:59 AM
I liek c-elves.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 30, 2014, 03:59:05 AM
I liek c-elves.

Whats the deal with these strings of skulls. Let them staaay.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dakota on May 30, 2014, 04:32:45 AM
I liek c-elves.

And all elves liek you, Rathustra :)
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Spider on May 30, 2014, 06:46:29 AM
Once a party passes the elven loyalty tests, the elf then passes the tribal mentality to that party. This includes complete and utter loyalty to that party, as well as the expectation of the same in return.  Do note that the elf also expects tests to be performed by the other party onto them as well.  

The final test of the process is generally a situation where the elf puts them-self into a real life threatening situation, and then asks the other party to put them-self into a real life threatening situation to get them out of it. It doesn't matter what race the other is, such a form of loyalty and selfless behavior is enough to convince the elf to put their full trust in that party.

Is this an actual tribe? In my opinion, it is to the elf.  There might not be a fancy name to it, or a long history of blood-lines, but a tribe and this companionship, as far as their nature, are indistinguishable.

I see your point; however I think it is important that you distinguish between elven tests of loyalty and tribe making. The tests are there to prove to the elf that the individual is trustworthy.  It is the tribal mentality, the fierce loyalty that the elf passes onto that person. If you think about the tests, and just how strict they are supposed to be, you'd see that the result transcends race.


Apologies that I'm bringing up a bit of an older point here but I wanted to comment on this.

While I don't disagree that elves could potentially get to this end-point in trusting another party, and it certainly a necessary condition in the formation of a new tribe, I do want to make the point that there should be some distinguishing between full blown tribal trust as opposed to tested trust.  I wouldn't say that there might be such a difference between tribal trust and tested trust for another elf, and I don't disagree that other races can be the subject of elven trust tests, but my belief is that elves would be keenly aware that non-elves just don't have that sort of undying loyalty to the tribe that an elf would.  Racism is prevalent in Zalanthas, and elves are certainly subject to it, but would also certainly be propagators of it as well - perhaps to elves, humans are wishy-washy, dwarves are insane, half-giants are just mindless imitating children.  How could any full-blooded elf really fully trust someone like that, even if they've proven themselves temporarily in the short term?  There'd always be that niggling thought in the back of their head - is this mul going to flip out on me today?

I think it's important to keep in mind that incompatible genetics aside, there would presumably never be an elven tribe with any permanence that contained different races for that very reason.  This alone should give reason to distinguish tribe vs. tested trust.

I think it's important that you understand how strict the elven loyalty tests are supposed to be, and a proper result would transcend race.  It doesn't make sense for an individual to pass those tests just to plan to betray the elf later.  Also note, that individuals of a tribe must always act on the good of the tribe.  If a member is suspected of going against the tribe, you better believe that the elf will reassess the situation.

Another point, tribeless elves do not go out looking to form a new tribe, formation of a tribe(companionship) is done organically simply by living.  Tribeless elves are incredibly arrogant and proud of their tribeless self. They wouldn't really be actively looking to be a part of one, unless of course outside influences require it.

The part I mention about tribeless elves was a part of the Elven Roleplay documentation that existed in the original helpfiles. I'm not certain if Staff scratched the concept, as I cannot find the quote in the helpfiles anymore. That concept could be outdated.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 30, 2014, 12:15:25 PM
I think its fairly obvious that Spider and me have had similar experiences with our elven play and how we read things.  Really, this entire thing could just come down to an 'eye of the beholder' concept where my original idea has sprung into something entirely different than others.

Edited to add:  This really does make me think some of the documentation has been revised or removed.  We seem to be quoting some of the same things, which we can't find anywhere.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 30, 2014, 01:37:25 PM
I find the struggle part of what entertains me. Want to be even more hated and mistrusted than a breed? Try an elf.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dresan on May 30, 2014, 01:39:23 PM
I liek c-elves.

You know there is always a chance we might be missing something.


 I wouldn't mind knowing what you enjoy most about playing c-elf? Especially one without a a coded tribe. Did you stay independent? Or did you join any of the clans? Did you c-elves consider their new clans as surrogate tribes? If you ddi join any of the clans did you find it frustrating not to be able to do the same things as others or do you feel they can easily cope?


Just a general idea of why you like them so much that some of us that might feel a little jaded against them might have missed or maybe blowing out of proportion. If i myself had to pick something interesting about them, I'd say high elven agility might be a fun thing to play around with just to see what it can do for me.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 30, 2014, 01:58:48 PM
I liek c-elves.

You know there is always a chance we might be missing something.


 I wouldn't mind knowing what you enjoy most about playing c-elf? Especially one without a a coded tribe. Did you stay independent? Or did you join any of the clans? Did you c-elves consider their new clans as surrogate tribes? If you ddi join any of the clans did you find it frustrating not to be able to do the same things as others or do you feel they can easily cope?


Just a general idea of why you like them so much that some of us that might feel a little jaded against them might have missed? If i myself had to pick something interesting about them, I'd say high elven agility might be a fun thing to play around with just to see what it can do for me.

My elves are dumb and easily mislead (don't tell -them- that, though) and try to find the sense of tribe in the clan they join, which always ends in disappointment as they slowly begin to realize just how dense and selfish humans really -are-, always getting ahead not on the merit of their deeds, but simply by the shape of their ears, which slowly morphs into a form of jealousy an hatred that expresses itself in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, as they conspire to cleanse the tribe of those who use it to their own ends, instead of serving the tribe's best interests.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Malken on May 30, 2014, 02:17:06 PM
I liek c-elves.

and big butts
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: chuci on May 30, 2014, 02:54:46 PM
I liek c-elves.

and big butts

and I always lie.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: valeria on May 30, 2014, 05:15:11 PM
Was this (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay) the file that you were looking for?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Dakota on May 30, 2014, 05:52:58 PM
I liek c-elves.

and big butts

and I always lie.

You other round-ears deny.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Spider on May 30, 2014, 07:16:26 PM
Was this (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay) the file that you were looking for?

No it was specific documentation concerning the personality traits of tribeless elves. That one there is quite different than the one I am speaking of. I'll keep looking, but elven documentation has changed a bit since the revamp.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: FantasyWriter on May 30, 2014, 07:31:57 PM
Was this (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay) the file that you were looking for?

No it was specific documentation concerning the personality traits of tribeless elves. That one there is quite different than the one I am speaking of. I'll keep looking, but elven documentation has changed a bit since the revamp.

try old.armageddon.org Lots of stuff there that's not on the new sight if it hasn't been removed already.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 30, 2014, 09:46:56 PM
Aha!

That's the one!  http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/thanas_elf.html

Well.  One of them.  This is pre-Nyr-announcement, so he does talk about having 1-2 others in your tribe, but not having it as a lasting tribe.  In other words, I think the equivalent of a normal family setup.

It should be noted, however, that the 'tested' is placed on the same level in his description as 'the tribe'.

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

Pretty much all of these are no longer on the website, and I think they should be.  While player created, they were staff supported ideas at the time.  Some of it is outdated, but speaks to the conversation we're having here.  And yes, they do also agree and disagree with both sides of this discussion, which makes them interesting to read.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: FantasyWriter on May 30, 2014, 10:05:49 PM
Aha!

That's the one!  http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/thanas_elf.html

Well.  One of them.  This is pre-Nyr-announcement, so he does talk about having 1-2 others in your tribe, but not having it as a lasting tribe.  In other words, I think the equivalent of a normal family setup.

It should be noted, however, that the 'tested' is placed on the same level in his description as 'the tribe'.

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

Pretty much all of these are no longer on the website, and I think they should be.  While player created, they were staff supported ideas at the time.  Some of it is outdated, but speaks to the conversation we're having here.  And yes, they do also agree and disagree with both sides of this discussion, which makes them interesting to read.

I had never read that particular page before. Thanas was before my time, but damn, I have never wanted to write up an elf so bad in my life. :D
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 31, 2014, 01:15:55 AM
I think it's important that you understand how strict the elven loyalty tests are supposed to be, and a proper result would transcend race.

I think you and I will just have to disagree here - not on the seriousness of the testing itself, but how the trust level would automatically transcend race to equate to tribe-level trust, even at it's end point.  Note though, even in Armaddict's link to the old elven RP doc Thanas qualifies the elf's tribe-level trusting of the end-tested human with "probably", and goes on to mention how the rest of the tribe may not trust the human (though presumably that might apply just as well to any tested non-tribe outsider human or not - Thanas doesn't specify).

It might help me understand your point of view though, if you could expand further on your thought here:

It doesn't make sense for an individual to pass those tests just to plan to betray the elf later.

I can say that I've personally been a part of storylines in game, where this sort of level of betrayal played out right in the gameworld? 

How about a different angle: what if your elf tests a dwarf, and the dwarf passes all the elf's tests since doing so aligns with the dwarf's current focus.  Then the dwarf completes their focus and the new one causes the dwarf to break that trust?  Here, the dwarf isn't even planning that ahead of time, that's just dwarves for you.  Surely elves know that dwarves do things like this because they're dwarves - would they really grant tribe-equivalent trust to such a creature?


As for what you mention here:

Another point, tribeless elves do not go out looking to form a new tribe, formation of a tribe(companionship) is done organically simply by living.  Tribeless elves are incredibly arrogant and proud of their tribeless self. They wouldn't really be actively looking to be a part of one, unless of course outside influences require it.

I'd be interested in reading about that if it was part of the old docs, actually as I'm interested to see where that viewpoint arises from.  But to me, it wouldn't make sense that if the tribe mentality is so essential to elven thought, that they'd be incredibly proud to not be in one and be self-sufficient.  But maybe that's just me, and I'm not staff, obviously.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 31, 2014, 03:23:07 AM
Quote
How about a different angle: what if your elf tests a dwarf, and the dwarf passes all the elf's tests since doing so aligns with the dwarf's current focus.  Then the dwarf completes their focus and the new one causes the dwarf to break that trust?  Here, the dwarf isn't even planning that ahead of time, that's just dwarves for you.  Surely elves know that dwarves do things like this because they're dwarves - would they really grant tribe-equivalent trust to such a creature?

I hope we can find more exceptions to every bit of documentation, because they clearly point out how wrong it is.  Yes, that is sarcasm.  As a general rule of the elven mentality, the description stands. EDITED TO ADD HERE:  Likewise...this doesn't disprove the documentation.  This is a point where the elven mentality actually fucks them.  This...would actually be an excellent personal plot in line with murder, corruption, and betrayal.  That elf would be seriously damaged after this occurred.

As for the 'probably', you need to remember this was officially on the webpage.  The 'probably' was the editorial note of the player, and so that 'probably' stands very strongly.  The point of the matter is, a tested individual is very highly trusted, 'probably' to the point of not being in the tribe, but being treated as if they were a tribe member.  Unless, of course, you have a tribe, in which case it remains individual rather than a tribe contact; other tribemates would not have the same association.  This is why we were saying the tribal mentality can remain intact without an actual full on tribe; for a tribeless elf, these tested people -are- their tribe, even though it's not a full on tribal unit.  They interact with these people the same way, and thus it remains in game through true elven roleplay without tribes to sink into.

Again...I would like to state that having tribes in game would indeed be nice.  I enjoy playing in them.  But I find the tribeless elf also fulfilling in very very similar ways, and would not call the lack of coded support race breaking.

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I'd be interested in reading about that if it was part of the old docs, actually as I'm interested to see where that viewpoint arises from.  But to me, it wouldn't make sense that if the tribe mentality is so essential to elven thought, that they'd be incredibly proud to not be in one and be self-sufficient.  But maybe that's just me, and I'm not staff, obviously.

From 'The Elven Persona':
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What Does Not Being a Tribal Elf Mean?

 While elves who are born and raised within the culture their tribe provides them, those who are born without a tribe (or lose their tribe, for whatever reasons) adopt a new mentality. Tribal elves have a strong sense of their family, meaning that as an individual they usually feel themselves as an extension or a working gear in the system that is their tribe. Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

Which leads to Spider's assertion of the importance of tests, and how a tribeless elf 'organically' gains the same relationships of a tribe, just not as an a priori association.  It builds.  The relationship is purposely tested, and sometimes improved not on purpose as well.  Someone who sticks with an elf and is loyal to an elf may find that elf returning the favor, or may find themselves manipulated.  Such is the nature of elven roleplay.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Fujikoma on May 31, 2014, 05:23:17 AM
That broom is not a rake...
Your grandma's gone insane...
A bee came,
and stung me,
I, ran, away....
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Zoan on May 31, 2014, 05:30:03 AM
Elf adage: "Buyers are liars, and sellers are storytellers."
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: mattrious on May 31, 2014, 09:15:16 AM
If you play a city-elf based on the information collected here:

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

You will succeed. Just a wealth of information on what they are and what they're all about. This also points to where I am coming from in regards to starting your own group. I am not certain why anything needs to change outside of these documents?
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: path on May 31, 2014, 11:29:07 AM
Thanas sold me on elves too. Sounds like fun!
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on May 31, 2014, 11:34:45 AM
If you play a city-elf based on the information collected here:

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

You will succeed. Just a wealth of information on what they are and what they're all about. This also points to where I am coming from in regards to starting your own group. I am not certain why anything needs to change outside of these documents?

I'm kind of wondering if the fact that they weren't moved over means the staff no longer supports those documents.  ASK THE STAFF HERE I COME.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: long live miley cyrus on May 31, 2014, 12:45:42 PM
Elves are so awesome... I just wish they were more playable, you know?

I suppose that's like saying the sun rises every day but seriously, if they had two big city clans in one city, three in the other, maybe the three is in Tuluk because the unique nature of crime and politics there would make it more interesting, and you could choose to be born into these clans instead of having to app for a role, since no matter how easy apping becomes, automating it is going to bring in noticeably more people.

Just to play a race that simultaneously understands the world thinks of them as dirt while being xenophobic and proud, a race that is way too comfortable with theft-crime and is probably more familiar with crime and hardship than a human of the same economic status, who sees loyalty completely differently, and maybe you're in one of these clans as something you couldn't be before the change (hunter, travel-capable mercenary, travel-capable merchant, a diplomat to nobles and Templars, a spy on other elves), and you can get some clan v. clan action that's more like gang wars than it is subtle maneuverings and politics, it would have that too. But I imagine elves don't have the same restraint for expected behavior in public that humans in their own fancy clans do... I mean you know what I mean? The way that elf clans would clash versus human clans. Not necessarily by strict adherence to realism but by how people generally would choose to act them out. I can't be the only person who wants to see that.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: IntuitiveApathy on May 31, 2014, 08:21:10 PM
Quote
How about a different angle: what if your elf tests a dwarf, and the dwarf passes all the elf's tests since doing so aligns with the dwarf's current focus.  Then the dwarf completes their focus and the new one causes the dwarf to break that trust?  Here, the dwarf isn't even planning that ahead of time, that's just dwarves for you.  Surely elves know that dwarves do things like this because they're dwarves - would they really grant tribe-equivalent trust to such a creature?

I hope we can find more exceptions to every bit of documentation, because they clearly point out how wrong it is.  Yes, that is sarcasm.  As a general rule of the elven mentality, the description stands. EDITED TO ADD HERE:  Likewise...this doesn't disprove the documentation.  This is a point where the elven mentality actually fucks them.  This...would actually be an excellent personal plot in line with murder, corruption, and betrayal.  That elf would be seriously damaged after this occurred.

Armaddict - the reason why we are discussing these things is because they are not elaborated upon in the current elven documentation.  Since it's not indicated in the docs, by our discussion of it, we are simply trying to settle upon how players should be playing when encountering these situations - these thought experiments could be real situations PCs encounter in the game.  Certainly the docs can't and won't specify every potential situation someone could encounter, but we're talking about situations which seem to run counter to something you're asserting which is not actually in the docs (namely that tribe-level trust is actually equivalent to tested-trust), hence our discussion in the first place.

I obviously have a different opinion than you or Spider do on some of these things.  The old documentation which you have provided a link to is somewhat informative, but you'll notice that the staff took some parts of them and not others when forming the new docs through the revamp.  Hopefully, by our discussion, it will prompt them to include additional official documentation (either by adding to the current docs, or perhaps even reusing some of the old docs) to cover these things off so that our opinions won't necessarily matter any longer.  It's either that or they never do and in that situation I presume then that they would leave it open to interpretation and a spectrum of play by players, so that neither of our opinions become incorrect.  You also pointed out that some of the old elven documentation is actually from player perspective which was officially adopted by staff - those presumably arose from discussions such as these.


From the current docs:
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Elves also naturally trust their tribemates. They know that every elf in their tribe feels the same loyalty they do - so they have a strong ingrained trust and even reliance upon all of their kin. To act in a harmful way against a tribemate is an unthinkable act in an elven tribe. But a caveat - some tribal cultures are harsh, what is "harmful" to you or me may not be considered serious harm to them; and also, if one elf is seen to be acting in a way that harms the tribe as a whole, to be harmful to that individual (to protect the tribe) is absolutely warranted. As a general rule, a harmful act against a tribemate would be one that betrays them to an outsider - this would be the ultimate crime of an elven nation.

Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust.

Again, to reiterate what I've said previously, to me this leaves open the distinction between a tribal-level of trust and outsider tested-trust.  Is that dwarf you've tested really to be considered equivalent to others of your elf's elven nation?  Does your elf really think that the dwarf, even though they've passed the elf's tests will forever be as loyal as another elf would, ignoring what they would know as dwarven nature?  Maybe there is a further distinction that we could make here between elves already in a tribe and solo elves and the trust they will grant to outsiders as well, but that's beside the point.  I feel that especially as elves have a higher wisdom than other races and their natural inclination to paranoia vs. trust that they'd be keenly aware of the traits of other races as compared to their own regarding their trustworthiness.  If we are pulling from the old docs, perhaps elves might be too proud to even want to place trust in a non-elf at all?  As I've also pointed out, racism is an important facet of Armageddon play - it's inherent to all races and all races practice it against all other races.  Note that I've never said that an outsider cannot be trusted on some level so long as tests have been passed - just that I don't feel they should be afforded the same level as tribal trust, or trust granted to an outsider that is an elf.

Consider also this from the current docs on elven racism (and note how it mentions how the tribal mentality plays into it):
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It is sometimes said that most elves forgive the riding of mounts by other races, but this isn't entirely true. While they realize that it is customary for some other races to ride mounts, they still perceive it as a sign of weakness. It usually doesn't change much, however, as the pride and tribal nature of elves makes them think of others as weak to begin with.


As for the 'probably', you need to remember this was officially on the webpage.  The 'probably' was the editorial note of the player, and so that 'probably' stands very strongly.  The point of the matter is, a tested individual is very highly trusted, 'probably' to the point of not being in the tribe, but being treated as if they were a tribe member.  Unless, of course, you have a tribe, in which case it remains individual rather than a tribe contact; other tribemates would not have the same association.  This is why we were saying the tribal mentality can remain intact without an actual full on tribe; for a tribeless elf, these tested people -are- their tribe, even though it's not a full on tribal unit.  They interact with these people the same way, and thus it remains in game through true elven roleplay without tribes to sink into.

As a point aside, I think Thanas was actually an imm if I recall.  But you're putting your speculation in Thanas' mouth here regarding his qualification without support.  If Thanas were still around, it'd be interesting to hear from him his thoughts on that qualification.

Let's go back to another point I made previously as well - can an elf form a tribe with non-elves?  This is presumably the end point of the line of logic you're taking, and it'd require presumably the 'organic' testing of the other tribe members-to-be between themselves as well.  But let's say they 'organically' pass these tests as amongst themselves (or enough so to your elf's satisfaction?).  If the answer now is, yes this should now be considered the elf's tribe which consists of non-elves, then I can potentially accept the equivalency of tested trust to tribal trust.  Keep in mind before you answer the lines from the current docs I quoted, as well as the points I've made above as well.


From 'The Elven Persona':
Quote
What Does Not Being a Tribal Elf Mean?

 While elves who are born and raised within the culture their tribe provides them, those who are born without a tribe (or lose their tribe, for whatever reasons) adopt a new mentality. Tribal elves have a strong sense of their family, meaning that as an individual they usually feel themselves as an extension or a working gear in the system that is their tribe. Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

This is interesting, and thinking further on this, I'm beginning to see how a solo elf might consider themselves a tribe of one and thus not need to seek out any bonds with anyone else that might lead them to joining a tribe or forming a new tribe.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: RogueGunslinger on May 31, 2014, 08:35:21 PM
That is a quality post and this is a beautiful conversation. Top form my good friends, top form.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: number13 on June 01, 2014, 01:39:10 AM
It should be pointed out there are no c-elves in Dark Sun.  There are a few merchant elves deposited by their tribes in a city, who ply their trade for the benefit of their tribe for a few years.  Even the tribes that specialize in the shadow arts do so over a wide range of cities.  They aren't locked into a small ghetto, and haven't lost their desert legs.

The Tuluki and Allanaki elven clans clearly have settled in their respective city-states, concentrated in the Warrens and Rinth respectively. Or have they...?

A retcon that could be made would be to declare that each of the "tribes" within the city-states is actually just a clan within a larger d-elf tribe.  Just as an example, the Bejewelled Hand might be a clan within the Sun Runners. The idea here is that even if there aren't other Bejewelled Hand PCs, you've still probably got tribe mates to interact with in the Sun Runners.  (Or, for people who hate OOC retcons, there could be some IC events where a c-elf tribe marries itself to a d-elf tribe, becoming a clan within that tribe.)

Another addition, could be a half-caste status within a c-elf tribe (which already sort of exists for some of the Rinthi tribes, I believe, and probably the Bejewelled Hand as well.)  A new PC c-elf could be automatically ~associated~ with a city tribe, depending on his start location (which would be constrained to either Tuluk or Allanak), but is not yet a full and proven member.  The newbie elf is from some off-shoot cousin clan, or has yet to succeed at the rites of adulthood. Something like that.

Just like the Guild, sometimes a c-elf tribe will run dry of full members, and staff can step in to promote worthwhile PC c-elves from the ranks.

A new c-elf would then have something akin to a tribe, with a clear identity, but the tribes themselves wouldn't be automatic "I win" buttons for 1-day old PCs, nor would a functioning PC group be saddled with having to treat a newbie who doesn't understand the tribe's character and traditions as a full member of the tribe until that character (and that player) has had time to learn the role.  

Speaking from experience, my one and only d-elf was a member of the Red Fangs, and I just shitted up the place with my ignorance. They should have killed my character, really, but were practically forced to treat him like a charmingly stupid brother instead. Since c-elf is a 0-karma pick without the staff oversight of d-elf tribals, full association to a tribe should be earned, but at the same time, an elf without a coded tribe is just too pathetic. When some round-eared Outsider asks, "What tribe you in?" the answer a real elf gives should never be, "I am tribeless."
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: gfair on June 01, 2014, 03:56:58 AM
"All elves have a cultural bent toward [...] wandering [...]"

This one of late has caused me to ask: What is the scope of the desire of city-elves to wander?  Are they just restless and always taking walks?  Or will they wander fom the warrens to the commons and back only?  Or are City Elves even not afraid to leave city gates and "The Known" is their scope for possible destinations?


Part of this harkens back to differences between city and desert elves.  Another part of this, the main thought, is that if Elves wander enough, why do we draw distinction between the two species.


Unrelated thought: Perhaps this (and trust issues) is part of the instinctual bi-polar nature of half-elf socialization and acclimatization.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: FantasyWriter on June 01, 2014, 08:25:09 AM
I belive they would "wander" enough to keep a good knowledge/assessment of whatever their comfort zone might happen to be (and possibly always pushing the borders thereof), whether that's a city street, the whole of the Pah, or half the Known world.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Armaddict on June 01, 2014, 03:20:07 PM
It should be pointed out there are no c-elves in Dark Sun.  There are a few merchant elves deposited by their tribes in a city, who ply their trade for the benefit of their tribe for a few years.  Even the tribes that specialize in the shadow arts do so over a wide range of cities.  They aren't locked into a small ghetto, and haven't lost their desert legs.

The Tuluki and Allanaki elven clans clearly have settled in their respective city-states, concentrated in the Warrens and Rinth respectively. Or have they...?

A retcon that could be made would be to declare that each of the "tribes" within the city-states is actually just a clan within a larger d-elf tribe.  Just as an example, the Bejewelled Hand might be a clan within the Sun Runners. The idea here is that even if there aren't other Bejewelled Hand PCs, you've still probably got tribe mates to interact with in the Sun Runners.  (Or, for people who hate OOC retcons, there could be some IC events where a c-elf tribe marries itself to a d-elf tribe, becoming a clan within that tribe.)

Another addition, could be a half-caste status within a c-elf tribe (which already sort of exists for some of the Rinthi tribes, I believe, and probably the Bejewelled Hand as well.)  A new PC c-elf could be automatically ~associated~ with a city tribe, depending on his start location (which would be constrained to either Tuluk or Allanak), but is not yet a full and proven member.  The newbie elf is from some off-shoot cousin clan, or has yet to succeed at the rites of adulthood. Something like that.

Just like the Guild, sometimes a c-elf tribe will run dry of full members, and staff can step in to promote worthwhile PC c-elves from the ranks.

A new c-elf would then have something akin to a tribe, with a clear identity, but the tribes themselves wouldn't be automatic "I win" buttons for 1-day old PCs, nor would a functioning PC group be saddled with having to treat a newbie who doesn't understand the tribe's character and traditions as a full member of the tribe until that character (and that player) has had time to learn the role.  

Speaking from experience, my one and only d-elf was a member of the Red Fangs, and I just shitted up the place with my ignorance. They should have killed my character, really, but were practically forced to treat him like a charmingly stupid brother instead. Since c-elf is a 0-karma pick without the staff oversight of d-elf tribals, full association to a tribe should be earned, but at the same time, an elf without a coded tribe is just too pathetic. When some round-eared Outsider asks, "What tribe you in?" the answer a real elf gives should never be, "I am tribeless."

This would be interesting.  A nice side effect being elven tribes out in the wastes going to war, and eastside of the labyrinth erupting into volatility as well.  Altogether, I think this would actually be a pretty sweet change aside from some lingering nostalgic pieces of city elves for me.

I'm not sure, codewise, that the change would be supported, though.  It mixes things around quite a bit, more than just a simple change.


IntuitiveApathy- That was a good post.  I liked reading it,.  At this point I think we're kind of nitpicking, but I just wanted to reiterate that I'm not anti-tribe or anti-clan, I just think that the assertion that elves are unplayable without them is a bad point to make.  It jips people of the mentality and what is very fun to play, if you let yourself get into the groove of it.
  As a note, I'm not asserting that an elf in a tribe will elevate non-tribe members to the same level as their tribemates.  I -am- asserting that a tribeless elf will find the same relationships as a tribe with those they come to trust; where they are distinctly tribal in nature, those bonds will just be filled with what they can get, but they will choose it carefully.  They will end up with 'tribal' relationships even though it is outside of a tribe.  To them, as Spider was talking about, the difference isn't there.  It's only once the tribe exists that there is a jump upwards into natural relationships.  Both scenarios grant great roleplay opportunities.

I belive they would "wander" enough to keep a good knowledge/assessment of whatever their comfort zone might happen to be (and possibly always pushing the borders thereof), whether that's a city street, the whole of the Pah, or half the Known world.

My thought on this (as I also was thinking about this part of the old documentation) is that even though city elves can't be rangers...maybe they are city rangers racially instead of by class.  A ranger wanders the wastes looking for prey; so does the city elf.  A ranger is adept at wilderness survival;elves are the 'survivor' race of the city.  The difference being that 'prey' for a ranger is animals to kill, and for city elves, 'prey' is anyone to con.  The ranger wanders the wastes with their wanderlust in search of prey; the elf wanders their city in search of prey as well, with that difference of prey in mind.

Kind of my thought on it, not sure if that meshes well in other people's head.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: FantasyWriter on June 01, 2014, 03:53:26 PM
That's a great interpretation of the docs, I think, Armaddict.
I've never thought of it that way, but it seeems pretty spot on in my opinion.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: Spider on June 02, 2014, 01:13:41 AM
I think it's important that you understand how strict the elven loyalty tests are supposed to be, and a proper result would transcend race.

I think you and I will just have to disagree here - not on the seriousness of the testing itself, but how the trust level would automatically transcend race to equate to tribe-level trust, even at it's end point.  Note though, even in Armaddict's link to the old elven RP doc Thanas qualifies the elf's tribe-level trusting of the end-tested human with "probably", and goes on to mention how the rest of the tribe may not trust the human (though presumably that might apply just as well to any tested non-tribe outsider human or not - Thanas doesn't specify).

It might help me understand your point of view though, if you could expand further on your thought here:

It doesn't make sense for an individual to pass those tests just to plan to betray the elf later.

I can say that I've personally been a part of storylines in game, where this sort of level of betrayal played out right in the gameworld? 

How about a different angle: what if your elf tests a dwarf, and the dwarf passes all the elf's tests since doing so aligns with the dwarf's current focus.  Then the dwarf completes their focus and the new one causes the dwarf to break that trust?  Here, the dwarf isn't even planning that ahead of time, that's just dwarves for you.  Surely elves know that dwarves do things like this because they're dwarves - would they really grant tribe-equivalent trust to such a creature?


As for what you mention here:

Another point, tribeless elves do not go out looking to form a new tribe, formation of a tribe(companionship) is done organically simply by living.  Tribeless elves are incredibly arrogant and proud of their tribeless self. They wouldn't really be actively looking to be a part of one, unless of course outside influences require it.

I'd be interested in reading about that if it was part of the old docs, actually as I'm interested to see where that viewpoint arises from.  But to me, it wouldn't make sense that if the tribe mentality is so essential to elven thought, that they'd be incredibly proud to not be in one and be self-sufficient.  But maybe that's just me, and I'm not staff, obviously.

 While elves who are born and raised within the culture their tribe provides them, those who are born without a tribe (or lose their tribe, for whatever reasons) adopt a new mentality. Tribal elves have a strong sense of their family, meaning that as an individual they usually feel themselves as an extension or a working gear in the system that is their tribe. Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

Taken from the old docs.  Obviously tests of loyalty still apply, but like I said, it wouldn't be a goal of the tribeless elf.

To your point about the dwarven focus. I did note that the elf would certainly reassess the situation if the companion would do something not for the good of the tribe.

Most everything I spoke of was from the perspective of a tribeless elf, as I feel that is most pertinent to the conversation going on in this thread.  Perhaps I should have specified that earlier.

Of course a tribe wouldn't automatically trust the companionship of a singular member and an outsider, the whole tribe would have to test that individual.  There are current in game tribes that do accept outside races in some capacity, those are considered members of the tribe. You will have to find that out IG or by reading specific clan documentation.

I'll take this moment to urge you to consider a human on human relationship IG. Imagine that they go through the exact process of the elven tests, but call it general life experiences with a companion instead. What do these experiences mean to this partnership? Imagine someone risking their life for you after years of always being there in a way that benefits your life. It is likely you would put your trust into that person, believe that person to be an extension of yourself, and you to their self.  The reason that "elven tests of loyalty" is even a coined term, is because of the natural distrust elves have for outsiders.

We often see irl that people can be instantly persuaded of another's good intention.  Humans are often capable of trusting too easily.  Elves are not capable of doing so.  Thus we have the tests.

To the community as a whole.  Elven roleplay isn't all that difficult. To me, elves are the most rational race.  Being prone to thievery does not mean that they are all spam stealing pickpockets. It just means that if given an opportunity to take something the elf will seriously consider doing so.   There is always a choice for an elf.

You can play an elf in today's game as a tribeless elf and have that exact intended experience of being an elf.  Trust noone, the tribe is self, and maybe one day your elf will have a companion to rely on.
Title: Re: Allanaki City Elves
Post by: long live miley cyrus on June 02, 2014, 01:30:10 PM
In my mind, both sides of the race v. loyalty debate are correct--- the elf will always know that the human at least considers themselves superior, that the dwarf may unintentionally (or intentionally due to not being an elf) betray them one day, that half-giants will be friends with anybody and might betray that one elf friend to keep two other human friends, for example if they're a soldier and the elf becomes wanted, and the human soldiers know to use social ladder thinking against the giant.

I think that elves understand that friends of other races are inherently different (flawed, inferior, dumber etc.) but this doesn't stop them from pouring their heart and soul into the relationship. This is because I think that elves can't psychologically hold back on that point, of course unless the situation comes up that was pointed out earlier, where an individual of the tribe who threatens the tribe is dealt with as necessary in spite of the group loyalty, especially if only one elf is actually bonded to the person. As far as I can tell, there are no half-assed true friendships between interracial friends on the elf's side. Racism would certainly exist, but it wouldn't make the elf care less.

And if the elf is really racist, I would perfectly expect them to not put forth the significant effort and vulnerability to test a dirty, breeds-like-rabbits human all they know how to do is fight and dig in the dirt, or that simple-minded living rock that all he can think about is making the perfect fork, with literally no other talents since that's all he's ever done, he's insane and would betray me in an instant for a cooking implement.