Of course it happens. And I'm sure this topic has been made a couple times before, however I think a fresh 2013-take would be neat. It must be a pretty big deal to some players. I've never had one of my PCs kill another PC (well one time I came across a dying dude on the verge of death, rifled through his possessions, then stabbed him to put him out of his misery - but thats different), and I'm sure if it came down to that I'd try to give that player his just due via proper roleplaying and do so with full knowledge that this is what my character wants. It must be a pretty big burden if you aren't completely callous. Killing someone's character, who they've put so much effort and love into crafting.
On the flip side, I could see other players sadistically getting off on the fact in the knowledge you just ruined that player's PC. It might even get addicting...
Share your experiences. Have you killed? Yes? No? How did it make you feel as a player? As a person? I guess it sort of depends on your character and that character's motivations. Like if you're putting down some bandits I'm sure you'd have no qualms about it - they were asking for it, but...what about coldblooded murder, murder most foul ?
Good topic.
QuoteOn the flip side, I could see other players sadistically getting off on the fact in the knowledge you just ruined that player's PC. It might even get addicting...
I really hope no one feels this way. As
people, Armageddon players seem to be a largely respectful and mature bunch.
That's not to say that a player kill can never be exciting/fun/satisfying/whatever, but it would be so because of the drama of the story, not just because you get some glee from destroying someone's beloved creation.
My own feelings have ranged from satisfaction to regret. It all depends on the situation.
(EDIT: Well, not always "regret" as in I feel like I did the wrong thing in the situation, but rather sorrow for the victim player/character's misfortune. But sometimes actual regret too where I wish things had occurred differently.)
The stories of all characters end eventually. The only question is how it happens. Some get killed by carru or fall of the shield wall. Some characters fade into the background when the player gets bored. The luckiest will get killed by another PC in an interesting scene. My favorite PC death was getting ninja'd for being in the wrong place with the wrong clothes on. I loved that character, but the death is what I remember most of all.
In the words of Tyrion, "Death is so final. But life ... is full of possibilities."
I don't shy away from killing characters if the circumstance warrants it, but I aim to try and make it memorable as well.
When in a grey area, I tend to lean towards something other than death be it disfigurement, robbing, humiliation, whatever.
Quote from: Drayab on May 30, 2013, 04:25:33 PM
The stories of all characters end eventually. The only question is how it happens. Some get killed by carru or fall of the shield wall. Some characters fade into the background when the player gets bored. The luckiest will get killed by another PC in an interesting scene. My favorite PC death was getting ninja'd for being in the wrong place with the wrong clothes on. I loved that character, but the death is what I remember most of all.
Ninja'd?
aka backstab instakill
I've never directly killed a PC, to my knowledge... That being said, I have witnessed a few incidents where my character may have inspired someone else to murder... And I was quite pleased with the ones I have knowledge of, but there was a good reason behind it.
All my characters are okay with killing anyone. Even though some might struggle with the decision is they're attached they still worry about #1 primarily, fuck everyone else.
I personally think there should be more murdering.
It's worth noting that people will sometimes bring their RL notions of the "value of life" into the game. Imagine the crappiest, most barbaric, child-slaughtering third world country possible, and you still have to multiply it to get par with the world of Zalanthas. Do I have a problem with killing in this world? No way! It was them or me.
All depends on my PC. I play some who are much more likely to ruin your life through rumors if they get pissed at you. And I play some that will take any measure they see fit to achieve there goals, including paying people to kill people, or doing it themselves, depending on there guild/subguild. I've also played some that wouldn't take a life of another humanoid period, and some that would only kill dwarves/breeds/elves because they are just animals anyways.
OOCly I have no problem PKing. But the one time I played a PK heavy pc (a raider) I always RPed, and only killed people that attacked, ran, or refused to pay up.
Quote from: Kismetic on May 30, 2013, 04:44:06 PM
It's worth noting that people will sometimes bring their RL notions of the "value of life" into the game. Imagine the crappiest, most barbaric, child-slaughtering third world country possible, and you still have to multiply it to get par with the world of Zalanthas. Do I have a problem with killing in this world? No way! It was them or me.
Sorry, even in the 'rinth that kind of thing wouldn't be tolerated.
That is another example of the GDB exaggerating things beyond belief. I have never seen 'child slaughtering', common racial cleansing or full on extermination of mass populations. I wouldn't be surprised if it
has happened before, but in a world where every resource is precious and populations are low (Since we're using 'real' comparisons, most 'drive through' states have many times Zalanthas entire world population, I believe), that kind of thing would be impossibly devastating to any pocket of civilization.
Even in the wasteland where there is no tangible sense of law, it is rare for a tribe to become exterminated, as I understand it.
It's "murder, corruption, betrayal" not "psycho child mass murder cannibal land".
Agreed.
Zalanthas is a harsh world, but not unsustainably so. It's been more or less stable for more than a thousand years.
I've PKed very few times over my time played, and usually don't end up in positions where its needed, but the few times I have done so, they have usually been VERY awesome moments.
I've been kill-spam PK'd before, and it wasn't exactly fun or remarkable though, so I try to remember that if I ever have to kill someone's PC, and do what I can to make it fun for them!
Quote from: Vwest on May 30, 2013, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on May 30, 2013, 04:44:06 PM
It's worth noting that people will sometimes bring their RL notions of the "value of life" into the game. Imagine the crappiest, most barbaric, child-slaughtering third world country possible, and you still have to multiply it to get par with the world of Zalanthas. Do I have a problem with killing in this world? No way! It was them or me.
Sorry, even in the 'rinth that kind of thing wouldn't be tolerated.
That is another example of the GDB exaggerating things beyond belief. I have never seen 'child slaughtering', common racial cleansing or full on extermination of mass populations. I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened before, but in a world where every resource is precious and populations are low (Since we're using 'real' comparisons, most 'drive through' states have many times Zalanthas entire world population, I believe), that kind of thing would be impossibly devastating to any pocket of civilization.
Even in the wasteland where there is no tangible sense of law, it is rare for a tribe to become exterminated, as I understand it.
It's "murder, corruption, betrayal" not "psycho child mass murder cannibal land".
Infanticide and filicide are both forms of murder. I suspect the reason we -don't- see it is because the start are is 13 and they're considered adults compared to modern day and no matter how great a roleplayer you are, there is gonna be some shit you cannot live with.
I agree with Kismet though my personal spectrum isn't quite as extreme. The famines we see on those feed the children commercials (sans do gooders trying to save them), the genocide... I'd say it's worse on Zalanthas.
Just because one place "civilizes" barbaric behavior doesn't make it any less barbaric, it makes it even more so.
I've had a few PKs (including "proxy PKs" like telling someone to kill someone else). I don't feel good or bad about it as a player - it just moves the story along. I prefer to let my characters have a good reason to kill - as a last resort or simply the only means to an end (or of course, when the victim deserves it). I think random murder can be indistinguishable from griefing if you're not careful with how you roleplay all these killings.
I think a society like Zalanthas has answers for people who kill more than they should, where that special amount is determined by the person's lot in life.
Quote from: Vwest on May 30, 2013, 05:18:51 PM
It's "murder, corruption, betrayal" not "psycho child mass murder cannibal land".
The point I was trying to make facetiously was that your average Zalanthan's morals and your average player's are far and wide apart. I used that as an example, because I count it as the least moral act in our society, hopefully (no, not really) driving the point home that the world is gritty, and people will do some downright evil shit for a sip of water.
In a world like that, I, as a player, have no problem being the executioner or the one hanging in the gallows. It's all Zalanthas.
I enjoy it.
I'm ok with it, if it makes sense.
For instance, if you've decided to play a raider or a rogue mage, or to venture into lands where you know you shouldn't be, or to insult and taunt the big bad warrior, you've tacitly given your permission to be PK'd. I'd not give a second thought OOCly to taking you down, depending on my PC of course.
I'm not really interested in playing someone who just goes around killing people because I can, for no other reason than to take their stuff, but it makes sense that there are people like that in Zalanthas. I like that they are few and far between, and usually seem to prefer to RP than to kill. Anyway it makes good plots to find them and take them out!
Quote from: Wug on May 30, 2013, 06:08:51 PM
I enjoy it.
But when you do it, don't you end up killing entire groups of us?
PK has always been an elusive, romanticized, distant dream for me in Arm. I've always had visions of setting up the perfect assassination, or having my character fly off the handle in a key emotional scene and slaughter someone out of rage, or outwitting another more skilled PC into a position that was advantageous for me... But the only times I ever got the chance to PK it was like having sex for the first time. I was nervous, it was over all too quick, and I had this weird shameful feeling like I didn't something wrong. Or at least didn't do it right enough.
I've only PK'd 3 or so people, so I feel like I haven't really been able to get any better at it and give people the death they deserve.
Quote from: Wug on May 30, 2013, 06:08:51 PM
I enjoy it.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/8/82/350x700px-LL-82bfff63_not-sure-dog.jpeg)
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 30, 2013, 07:22:03 PM
PK has always been an elusive, romanticized, distant dream for me in Arm. I've always had visions of setting up the perfect assassination, or having my character fly off the handle in a key emotional scene and slaughter someone out of rage, or outwitting another more skilled PC into a position that was advantageous for me... But the only times I ever got the chance to PK it was like having sex for the first time. I was nervous, it was over all too quick, and I had this weird shameful feeling like I didn't something wrong. Or at least didn't do it right enough.
I've only PK'd 3 or so people, so I feel like I haven't really been able to get any better at it and give people the death they deserve.
I wonder how many of these were me..... >.>
I had the opportunity to fire someone at work a little while ago, for the first time in my life. It felt enough like pk'ing someone's beloved character that I actually compared the two as I ruminated on the day's events on my drive home.
Pk is exciting and dramatic, I love it.
PK rocks if you do it right. I only regret the ones I did wrong, and not the fact that I PK'd but the fact that I did not do a good job with the RP. I really kick myself for that.
I do not agree with the sociopath PC that goes killing for no real IC reason. PK has to make sense.
So I am ok with PK. In the end, everyone has to die and if it can be done artfully then how cool is that?
I have been directly involved in a few player deaths over my character's lives. I have wanted to kill many characters as my characters, and I would of killed them without any problem if I had the chance or the ability. I think killing is fine and for me it makes the game world go around, at least a little more interestingly. I have also been indirectly involved in PLENTY of people's deaths over the years. I have either convinced people to kill for my character, ordered it, or what have you.
I have had plenty of characters I knew that died to NPC's. Oh, Amos? He died to a Mekillot the other day. That is so interesting :/ I can get revenge on a Mekillot, maybe, but it isn't really quite as interesting as killing someone else in revenge, or trying to hunt down the person. NPC deaths are so much less plot causing than PC deaths and this is why I love PK even if I don't participate in it very often.
To this day I have several characters that I wish I knew what happened. My character was involved with them so often on a daily basis and when they were killed(by players) I never did find out who it was or the circumstances of it and still some of those deaths tickle the back of my mind like, "What happened? Who was it?". I wish it was okay to ask, HEY AMOS, WHO KILLED YOU? Years after the fact, because I would.
This is why I like PK. It keeps me intrigued, even after my characters are long gone and I'm on new ones.
I don't really enjoy it.
So, please, don't cross my characters. They will bow to inevitable and send you to the infinite. :D
People keep saying they have ordered hits, it would be interesting to hear from a player who has actually played a hitman (yes I've read that assassin's primer) and who has actually killed a bunch of PCs, if they were brave enough to come forward. Such a player's perspective on an OOC level would be worth hearing. Because in the world of gaming the kind of multiplayer permadeath that is featured in arm is really a novelty and basically unheard of. It really is a unique exerience.
If you want bodycount experts, talk to Templars and Staff.
Players have played hitmen. A lot of characters have been assassinated. You'll have to take my word for it though.
Due to the sensitive nature of assassination plots they aren't really ever okay to talk about on the GDB so we'd prefer not to hear from players who have actually done that sort of thing.
I'm not suggesting someone talk about intimate details of the game but rather just what it felt like killing a lot PCs. Is that sort thing taboo? I just find the whole affair really interesting, coming from a game design perspective.
Quote from: Wastrel on May 30, 2013, 10:00:55 PM
I'm not suggesting someone talk about intimate details of the game but rather just what it felt like killing a lot PCs. Is that sort thing taboo? I just find the whole affair really interesting, coming from a game design perspective.
It's not Taboo. But you do have to report PK's to staff when you do them, and they prefer to know before hand if it's not random (like if you are planning on assasinating another PC) As someone that played a raider I will say that it's a rush. You never know if that other guy is better then you, or if they will escape and bring back friends. It is a lot of fun.
But the big thing I want to stress here, is give some sort of RP to the dying person, either in the fight, or as they are bleeding out. The only times I have been PKed that I walked away mad, was because of a lack of RP. RP makes it worth it.
I've only pked somebody once, and in retrospect I wish I hadn't. IC motivations and blah blah blah were all acceptable, but I think the world is a much better place if people just get knocked down a peg and wake up naked and ashamed.
PKing isn't easy, in fact it's very difficult to pull off effectively, and almost impossible to do cleanly unless it's well planned, or carried out behind locked doors. With that said, I rarely if ever use the feel command while I'm trying to kill someone. It's just not something that occurs to me in the heat of the moment with my heart racing as the chase ensues. Sure.... afterwards is a good time to feel AND think. Doing the whole personal introspection thing is great for personal development, but -while- I'm doing the deed, it's often something I overlook. Call me an unfeeling Pkiller, but sometimes it's just a little too much.
But seriously, death is a part of the game. Death is an ending and a beginning (even if just for the victim's new character). I believe that a good death can be the beginning of many new things, especially for those involved around the death. Death can be a transforming change, inspiring other characters to act, creating a void to be filled by others, and many other things.
Personally, I do try to avoid killing others unless it is essential, otherwise those other characters will likely add more play value to the game than their death would, especially for myself.
I can't believe nobody's posted this yet.
Quote from: Pulp Fiction
(in the cab after Butch has left the boxing match)
Esmeralda: What does it feel like?
Butch: What does what feel like?
Esmeralda: Killing a man. Beating another man to death with your bare hands.
Butch: What are you a weirdo?
Esmeralda: No. It's a subject I have much interested in. You are the first person I have ever met who has killed somebody. So, what does it feel like to kill a man?
Butch: Tell you what, you give me one of them cigarettes you got up there and I'll tell you all about it.
(Esmeralda hands him a cigarette)
Anyway. Out of respect for my victims, I'll leave my own personal thoughts out of this thread, where they belong. This game is full of killers. If you want to understand them, ask them IC. (Or, get killed by them.)
If you want to know how the PLAYERS feel about it, I would say this is a game for mature adults. We have consent rules. Follow them. Anything beyond that is irrelevant. This is the internet. Who knows why any of you people do what you do? I have questions about the player behind the curtain at times, but it's rarely over a PK. But out of respect for them, I make the assumption that they are mature responsible members of society when not playing a convincing character in a dark, starving, dangerous world. I make the same assumption about myself.
Quote from: Wastrel on May 30, 2013, 10:00:55 PM
I'm not suggesting someone talk about intimate details of the game but rather just what it felt like killing a lot PCs. Is that sort thing taboo? I just find the whole affair really interesting, coming from a game design perspective.
Wait another year or so and I'll submit a few logs for you to read. :)
I've killed quite a few. Some made me feel IRL bad. Some were exciting, really high stakes stuff.
I never killed nobody ever.... they fell on my sword.
Be a pacifist with master slashing, Incredibly Amazing stats, and master dual wield. Watch the look of total horror as they attempt to kill you and find themselves brutally slaughtered within mere seconds.
Truly, this must be the best feeling.
I have played PCs like that...it is amusing, at the very least.
I have killed a really small number of PCs. Most of the time it is I who ends up dead. Either I mess up the fight (most likely) or I let the other char go out of OOC considerations. I don't think I'll be doing that anymore. If my PC would kill you, I will, and I won't care if you liked the concept or how many days you put into it.
Quote from: AdamBlue on May 31, 2013, 01:28:16 PM
Be a pacifist with master slashing, Incredibly Amazing stats, and master dual wield. Watch the look of total horror as they attempt to kill you and find themselves brutally slaughtered within mere seconds.
Truly, this must be the best feeling.
It's educational. It teaches them the different between "I don't want to fight" and "I can't fight."
It does make want to join the byn for a couple of years then dress up in newbie clothes with a newbie weapon, and troll the sands for raiders.
>say (emotelessly) Oh, hai guyz. Wanna groop?
>say How do I wear belt? Oh, ha! Got it!
...
>em sighs
>bash
>disarm
...
>clean sword blood
>get all corpse
Still sorta waiting on the Jackie Chan PC to come about where it's the guy who just doesn't want trouble with anyone and then seconds later it's an entire room full of dead people killed in hilarious ways. Then again, maybe Templars are all Jackie Chan, because that's how it usually ends up, isn't it?
I've always wanted to do something like that. Skill up a PC in the Byn, quit, take a few months off, then come back and hope no one is around that remembers that character. Maybe then join a clan and wallop the recruiting leader, or just take up an unassoming profession and roflstomp some hapless assassin/raider.
It's a terribly meta-gamey and excessivly long-term plan, but those few times where you surprise the hell out of someone might we worth it.
Quote from: AdamBlue on May 31, 2013, 02:12:09 PM
Still sorta waiting on the Jackie Chan PC to come about where it's the guy who just doesn't want trouble with anyone and then seconds later it's an entire room full of dead people killed in hilarious ways. Then again, maybe Templars are all Jackie Chan, because that's how it usually ends up, isn't it?
Jackie Chan with a toothache, on crank, drinking bad black coffee, which causes his ulcer to act up, dealing with a hangover.
Jackie isn't grumpy enough for the templarate.
Being a low profile average statted high skilled warrior was an incredibly amusing experience to me.
Dude rides up to see my PC hurt. "Oh, do you need help?"
My chick says, "No, thanks. I'll be fine."
Dude guards my PC and forces a white knight's escort upon her. On the way back to RSV he says, "It's a good thing you're a beautiful woman. If you were a man I'd have killed you." <Dude smug smirks>
My chick hemote sighs.
Beetle ambushes the pair. Dude gets torn up really quickly and my chick rescues him, dispatching the beetle in a blinding reel spam.
My chick says to him, "It is a good thing you didn't attack me." Dude performs Tuff Guy walk of shame.
I had a half-giant warrior that was being ridiculed and taunted by some noble's aide. I gave her every warning that the giant was getting distraught...
Slamming that pickaxe into her head in the middle of public was -so- satisfying.
bogre is so badass
My favorite player kills have all been tragic accidents
Last time I killed a PC with regular combat was when gith were playable via spec app. O/w I have killed a handful (4-5) over the last four or five years with the cast 'mon un die bitch die' from my litany of magicker-characters, but when they deserve it they REALLY deserve it (i.e. they may have backstabbed me when I was helping them or some crap like that).
I have done about 30 PK's over my years on Armageddon. Half of them were as a raider, the rest were either self-defense, bounties, part of work, etc etc. There is only one I regret, and think I shouldn't have done in retrospect. The rest were done for a good reason, even the raider kills. I didn't associate any particular feeling with PK over mob/NPC slaying, myself. If it had to be done, it got done.
I've never PERSONALLY killed someone but I have PERSONALLY led to players being killed by hiring someone or ordering or whatever. And it made me feel AWFUL.
However, that being said? Kill my character any time you like. Really, as bad as I felt about it, I have no qualms with my character(s) being offed, ever, and especially would enjoy so if it's well played.
Quote from: boog on May 31, 2013, 07:05:31 PM
Kill my character any time you like. Really, as bad as I felt about it, I have no qualms with my character(s) being offed, ever, and especially would enjoy so if it's well played.
For the record I feel the same way.
-And- I have been pk'ed TWICE while AFK.
Twice.
going afk in arm seems like a recipe for disaster
Quote from: Beatrix KiddoBut you can take my word for it, your mother character had it comin'.
I have no problem dealing someone the Drov card. It's just one character, and if there's an IC reason, go for it and enjoy the thrill of ending someone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcJs4qJPQ_M&feature=youtu.be&t=38s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcJs4qJPQ_M&feature=youtu.be&t=38s)
I've got a few PKs under my belt.... I feel alright about PC killing, to be honest.
The only time I feel bad about it is when it truly wasn't the "in-character" thing to do, and I think there's only one of those.
To that one elf that got ganked in undertuk by a little hunched green piece of bastard, I'm sorry.
I kill when I think my character would, though usually I like to find reasons to extend the story and ramp up the conflict before chasing a final end.
Sometimes I hate to do it, especially if I love to hate the PC I'm interacting with. But I won't hesitate, if it's in character to do so. Them's the breaks in ArmageddonMUD.
I've killed quite a few characters in Arm, either directly or by having others do it.
I have absolutely no problem with it, though I feel fairly grungy if it's a locked room / no chance situation.
In general, I much prefer alternatives to killing, but most characters tend to be too noble to be turned / too proud to accept humiliation / feel their journeyman chopping weapons mean they can take on the world.
I've also noticed most people are far more inclined to just killl / loot in Arm then accept groveling, bribery, servitude and such for some reason, which is pretty boring.
Journeyman chopping is not to be trifled with my friend.
Quote from: Vwest on May 31, 2013, 11:54:54 PM
I've killed quite a few characters in Arm, either directly or by having others do it.
I have absolutely no problem with it, though I feel fairly grungy if it's a locked room / no chance situation.
In general, I much prefer alternatives to killing, but most characters tend to be too noble to be turned / too proud to accept humiliation / feel their journeyman chopping weapons mean they can take on the world.
I've also noticed most people are far more inclined to just killl / loot in Arm then accept groveling, bribery, servitude and such for some reason, which is pretty boring.
too noble to be turned / too proud to accept humiliation.This happens a lot a lot.
Sometimes people are just asking for it. Most of the time, they are just asking for it. It's odd that some still seem surprised.
The amount of people that hold up under threat of death and torture is crazy.
I have killed mostly these type of people, and I had no problem with it OOCly. Not even a little.
Quote from: racurtne on June 01, 2013, 12:59:12 AM
Quote from: Vwest on May 31, 2013, 11:54:54 PM
I've killed quite a few characters in Arm, either directly or by having others do it.
I have absolutely no problem with it, though I feel fairly grungy if it's a locked room / no chance situation.
In general, I much prefer alternatives to killing, but most characters tend to be too noble to be turned / too proud to accept humiliation / feel their journeyman chopping weapons mean they can take on the world.
I've also noticed most people are far more inclined to just killl / loot in Arm then accept groveling, bribery, servitude and such for some reason, which is pretty boring.
too noble to be turned / too proud to accept humiliation.
This happens a lot a lot.
Sometimes people are just asking for it. Most of the time, they are just asking for it. It's odd that some still seem surprised.
The amount of people that hold up under threat of death and torture is crazy.
I have killed mostly these type of people, and I had no problem with it OOCly. Not even a little.
I'm kinda turned on by that.
I kill PCs when they need killing. There are many reasons for needing killing. Its all in context really. I have no hard feelings towards getting PK'd nor towards PKing somebody. Its part of the exhilarating part of the game to be honest.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 01, 2013, 12:30:44 AM
Journeyman chopping is not to be trifled with my friend.
It's excellent for removing scalps. Especially from Boogs PCs.
I've only ever PKed one person. And it was an arena fight so I don't feel like it counts.
I've been PKed three times. I'm still mad about one of then. One was when I got roflstomped by a >sap in the middle of a conversation. And the last was the only one where I felt like the other player wasn't a total nob.
I got PKed in an arena once.
I got kudos. It was fun, and awesome. ;D
The only time I got PKd and felt angry about it, was when I was asked to do something by my boss, walked into a shop, and *beep* mantis head.
It furthered a plot, sure, but man what a way to go.
I actually feel like a lot of PK makes the world less harsh. The IC and OOC attitude toward it is so casual that it doesn't really carry any emotional weight for me anymore. PK is raised as a threat for everything, from sitting at a bar with someone in a bad mood to having a relationship (between people of the same species) that an uninvolved third party doesn't like. "Do what I want, or I'll have you murdered" is like the Zalanthan way to say hi. It's to the point, for me, where I'm more annoyed that I have to greb salt/clay/whatever for a while to get a new character on their feet again.
I wish that there was more effort put into being creative with revenge, punishments, threats, persuasion, etc. than everyone resorting to murder.
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 02, 2013, 05:13:41 PM
I got PKed in an arena once.
I got kudos. It was fun, and awesome. ;D
So have I. Nothing like dying to clapping.
Quote from: Celest on June 02, 2013, 05:48:19 PM
I wish that there was more effort put into being creative with revenge, punishments, threats, persuasion, etc. than everyone resorting to murder.
Agree on this totally, we need more intrigue and assassination and backstabbing and filthy, underhanded feuds.
Quote from: gfair on June 02, 2013, 06:10:42 PM
Quote from: Celest on June 02, 2013, 05:48:19 PM
I wish that there was more effort put into being creative with revenge, punishments, threats, persuasion, etc. than everyone resorting to murder.
Agree on this totally, we need more intrigue and assassination and backstabbing and filthy, underhanded feuds.
Assassination and backstabbing are likely yet more murder (if done right), filthy underhanded feuds could certainly result in a number of deaths. Are there not MORE ways to prove your dominance, superiority, creativity, intelligence etc. to another character than killing them? I think there are plenty, and possibly more beneficial to the character using such methods.
It's not about knowing how to use the sword, it's about knowing WHEN.
I'd find that a problem(people not looking for good alternatives to murder) if people actually were PK'd more than they were offed by NPC's, storage, and suicide. Sadly that just isn't the case. PK's are actually kind of rare, in my experience.
And honestly there's only SO creative you can get with revenge before things escalate.
Quote from: gfair on June 02, 2013, 06:10:42 PM
Quote from: Celest on June 02, 2013, 05:48:19 PM
I wish that there was more effort put into being creative with revenge, punishments, threats, persuasion, etc. than everyone resorting to murder.
Agree on this totally, we need more intrigue and assassination and backstabbing and filthy, underhanded feuds.
Let the record show that the tagline is...
Murder... Corruption... Betrayal....
In my four or so years of play, I don't think I've killed more then 2-3 PC's - and their deaths weren't usually planned and/or expected. If my character is out for revenge, I don't usually do it directly. I try to get others involved. Give it some room to fail or out right be turned around on me. I would like to think that most players put a lot of effort into their characters, so to have stroll into the room with me and lock the door and insta-gank me without so much as a bit of preamble would intensely infuriate me.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on June 02, 2013, 08:23:06 PM
... insta-gank me without so much as a bit of preamble would intensely infuriate me.
Hell just dying pisses me off. I still rather be murdered than die to an NPC. I wonder how many times your characters have been murdered cause most seem to happen in a rather sudden, can't really get out of it kinda way.
Looking at the responses here, I feel like a mass murderer.
Quote from: Scarecrow on June 02, 2013, 08:52:45 PM
Looking at the responses here, I feel like a mass murderer.
You pretty much are.
You always keep it classy though, so don't feel bad :)
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 02, 2013, 07:53:04 PM
I'd find that a problem(people not looking for good alternatives to murder) if people actually were PK'd more than they were offed by NPC's, storage, and suicide. Sadly that just isn't the case. PK's are actually kind of rare, in my experience.
And honestly there's only SO creative you can get with revenge before things escalate.
I think what she means is that death threats and the willingness to escalate violence is too prevailent. I think that pks aren't as common as we might enjoy. Actual murders are neat. There were many pcs I've met over the years who had a knife in the back coming, but my pcs didn't have the wherewithal to get it done.
But I also have gotten death threats after an argument about who would skin the scrab which felt not like the world was harsh, but people'd by overgrown 8 year olds. Sometimes you deserve a knife in the back. Sometimes you need a punch in the nose. They're not interchangeable.
Quote from: boog on May 31, 2013, 07:05:31 PM
Kill my character any time you like. Really, as bad as I felt about it, I have no qualms with my character(s) being offed, ever, and especially would enjoy so if it's well played.
The only problem is that unless I'm not watching the screen closely enough for whatever reason I tend to avoid not screwing up the common-sense things that would make me as easy a target as that guy whose mdesc is unformatted who doesn't know how to use the talk command.
I got staff to kill me once. I thought that, hey, we're doing a thing where perhaps a random death out of fucking nowhere on one of us would actually be really fucking cool, so I wished up.
Unfortunately I had to disconnect and missed every emote of it, but I'm secretly kind of proud of that night.
What has made me never make a raider pc is that I sort of expect six out of ten of my victims to run and spam flee while I'm trying to emote, two of them to stay and then successfully flee as we fight and I never see them again, and one to stay with an unusually calm demeanor and end up making me look like a total flake who's never trained as they kill me. The one I do kill, has friends that ensure I will be spam-killed as soon as I'm alone by nighttime tomorrow.
Well I suppose those aren't terribly bad odds. Raiding is starting to sound like fun.
Personally I believe I have never directly killed somebody, and through the process of being alive have indirectly caused the deaths of three to four and gave twice as many of those close calls or survival reasons to leave a tavern early. I don't really feel bad about pking someone; I've never felt depressed or anything after being pked; I try to train myself to give up attempting to be long-lived, to genuinely enjoy those times and rp when it looks like someone in the same room is likely to get the mantis head. That's why the last attempt on my life was so fun. That was great.
As for vnpcs killed through initial backgrounds.... I'd say more than thirty, and less than fifty. A few were mass murderers.
Heh, Scarecrow...if I totaled up my PK numbers, You would feel better.
I have had Single PCs get around 20 kills.
As to how I feel about it. Same as I feel IRL, Killing is a permanent solution. And so, if somebody attacks one of my PCs, My Pc, if possible will kill them, as they have already shown to be a threat. And fully half my PKs have been self defense. A few duels to the death...which I enjoyed, well one the person that made the challenge ran...it was several RL days till I was able to catch up with him and deal out the death part of that duel. The rest were split pretty evenly between bounties and "He a needed killin" EI PCs who ignored rules, broke rules/laws did things on certain tribes lands after repeated warning, did not give in to raids, were raiders, killed/raided/attack friends/family/tribemates of my PCs. Oh, and mages.
And several accidents...but I do not count those.
Quote from: ShaLeah on June 01, 2013, 01:13:09 AM
I'm kinda turned on by that.
Heyyyy ;) http://maleminded.tumblr.com/post/8352519487 (http://maleminded.tumblr.com/post/8352519487)
On topic: I've never had a PC die to an NPC. I've been PK'd twice. Once was a couple arrows that were deserved. Another was when I was Linkdead. Honestly, neither made me angry or upset at all.
I think it's just part of the experience. I do believe, however, that there should be more less-than-lethal violence at times. The problem with that is most players often put their PCs in positions where by all rights they -should- be killed. Few people want to play along and betray what they consider to be their PC's loyalties. Or they want to murder you in retribution for public humiliation or something, so you have to nip that in the bud since it's -going- to escalate. Few people are willing to watch their PCs be brought low, be humbled, be wretched, fall from grace, be controlled in any way. This causes their PCs to die at the hands of other players (often authority figures). I've seen a lot of PCs be warned and not take the hint (and I'm not talking about ludicrous 'who skins the scrab' situations). I've seen people assume they are going to die, and therefore not want to have their PCs break (I suppose so that they are not remembered as traitors/weak/whatever). Sometimes they are right, of course. Some actions just don't fly.
I'm perfectly fine with ending a character. It's a story, and I enjoy the uncertainty in my own characters' lives. It's what makes the game exciting. That being said, I think what I said earlier bears repeating.
Oftentimes, you may not realize it, but you are asking for it.
I played a Templar once, and he was talking to a PC that got so fed up with him that he walked away and rolled his eyes. It wasn't an hemote, he outright walked away and rolled his eyes. Naturally, my Templar got upset at the lack of respect and told him to get back here. The guy ran into his Clan Compound like a tregil. Templarman wasn't afraid of the Clan Compound, and wished up to be let in. The guy ran out past the Compound gates, but not before I was able to set him to wanted. Rather than be carted off to jail, he killed like 3 Soldiers before they struck him down.
In all seriousness, I was going to tell the guy it wasn't smart to be so rude to me, in Public, and maybe give him a nasty talking to. Rather than accept the humbling, he ran from the law, killed officers of the peace... I mean. Come on. AND THEN HE COMPLAINED TO ME OOCLY BECAUSE HE KNEW WHO I WAS. Like Racurtne said... sometimes you people are just asking for it.
Quote from: Riev on June 03, 2013, 01:27:00 PM
I played a Templar once, and he was talking to a PC that got so fed up with him that he walked away and rolled his eyes. It wasn't an hemote, he outright walked away and rolled his eyes. Naturally, my Templar got upset at the lack of respect and told him to get back here. The guy ran into his Clan Compound like a tregil. Templarman wasn't afraid of the Clan Compound, and wished up to be let in. The guy ran out past the Compound gates, but not before I was able to set him to wanted. Rather than be carted off to jail, he killed like 3 Soldiers before they struck him down.
In all seriousness, I was going to tell the guy it wasn't smart to be so rude to me, in Public, and maybe give him a nasty talking to. Rather than accept the humbling, he ran from the law, killed officers of the peace... I mean. Come on. AND THEN HE COMPLAINED TO ME OOCLY BECAUSE HE KNEW WHO I WAS. Like Racurtne said... sometimes you people are just asking for it.
Agreed. You prove you don't want roleplay...and I'll just off you rather than give you more options, simple as that.
I accidentally PK'd someone who was AFK once. In my defense they were somewhere they should not have been, sleeping, and AFK. Still feel bad about it, even though my char would (and did) shank that with glee. I didn't even realize they were AFK until I initiated combat and they're just standing there awkwardly fighting me, not drawing weapons...ugh.
I can't say I regret my other PKs, though. I do mull over such actions more than other things, but as long as they're IC...
I think one of the other common causes of unnecessary PC deaths (besides overweening pride) is inflexible characters. Just because you dream up your character as a bad-ass, or a smart-ass, or a loon, or a free spirit, or whatever, doesn't mean that character (if a real person) could never get simple and acquiescing in a hurry if they thought they were going to die. Players who are threatening your PC's life almost always tell you what they want you to do, in my experience. If you listen, and do those things, you will generally live (or get seriously betrayed, but, you know...). But players (especially newer players) always seem to feel the need to make their characters into cults of personality. Just a thought; if seeing a little of your character's personality pissed off someone dangerous, more of that same personality is probably going to piss them off more. Also, the more you talk when in trouble, the more likely you are to say something stupid. Stay simple, stay alive!
Quote from: James de Monet on June 03, 2013, 02:14:25 PM
I think one of the other common causes of unnecessary PC deaths (besides overweening pride) is inflexible characters. Just because you dream up your character as a bad-ass, or a smart-ass, or a loon, or a free spirit, or whatever, doesn't mean that character (if a real person) could never get simple and acquiescing in a hurry if they thought they were going to die.
Hear, hear! I for one definitely assume every character out there will gladly and quickly kill me if they are able (and reading some of the replies here, that seems like the correct default assumption to make) which means that no matter how gutsy s/he may be, you can bet my character's going to take a checkmate very seriously and cave accordingly.
I completely support the whole free-PC killing and instadeath because in my mind, they make for truer, more immersive RP. You are really pushed to understand what lines your character will cross to live, the extent to their values, pride, loyalties, even idiocy, horniness, etc (is that hot piece of ass you just met
really a safe shag?). Everyone has a price, and I've had revelations about my character when cornered.
As for personally PKing, short of an accident I haven't killed any of y'all yet. But I so want to, I just keep getting shaky cold fingers when the chips are down. Such a greenhorn :-\
I invite more players to kill my characters. Please!
I really do want to die more often to players. It would make me store less!
You know, It's threads like this one that make me keep trying to make a raider. IC just keeps taking me other directions :(
The one I'm still mad about is the reason I don't play in Tuluk. Got brought in for questioning cuz I got attacked by a spooky nasty, accused of being in cahoots with spooky nasty because I carried weapons with me (????), blubbered and pleaded to Templar about innocence, instaganked by a slash to the neck.
The guy in charge got force stored a few weeks later, apparently, for bein a silly goose. And by silly goose I mean words inappropriate for use in polite company.
All that being said, I do wish arm had more methods to NOT kill somebody and that the ones that do exist be more robust.
Does not really mean I would kill less, I just prefer to have the choice rather then code quirks/shortfalls or lack of choices.
What amuses me is, there are far more ways to kill a PC available to a 0 karma mundane PC then ways to take them down without killing. And what few methods there are, are branched in most cases.
Same for when you add in magiok/karma. And mercy only works in melee and melee skills.
Sorry, I just think that is funny that the code on a RP enforced mud is actually geared towards death.
I think I will go find and necro the thread on last emote or whatever. Cause if I can't have better mercy and methods to take somebody down that do not kill right away, then it would be great to have a chance for that final emote on both sides to end a scene.
Quote from: X-D on June 03, 2013, 03:37:51 PM
All that being said, I do wish arm had more methods to NOT kill somebody and that the ones that do exist be more robust.
Does not really mean I would kill less, I just prefer to have the choice rather then code quirks/shortfalls or lack of choices.
What amuses me is, there are far more ways to kill a PC available to a 0 karma mundane PC then ways to take them down without killing. And what few methods there are, are branched in most cases.
Same for when you add in magiok/karma. And mercy only works in melee and melee skills.
Sorry, I just think that is funny that the code on a RP enforced mud is actually geared towards death.
I think I will go find and necro the thread on last emote or whatever. Cause if I can't have better mercy and methods to take somebody down that do not kill right away, then it would be great to have a chance for that final emote on both sides to end a scene.
I wish you could actually enslave a pc. And them not be force stored like. "If you want to keep playing, lets do this" that could make some very interesting rp.
Quote from: X-D on June 03, 2013, 03:37:51 PM
I think I will go find and necro the thread on last emote or whatever. Cause if I can't have better mercy and methods to take somebody down that do not kill right away, then it would be great to have a chance for that final emote on both sides to end a scene.
I feel like this would get abused a lot by inexperienced players:
>lem WTF??
With his dying breath, the tall, muscular noob WTF??
>lem heaves all her gear into the fire
With her dying breath, the tressy-tressed noob heaves all her gear into the fire.But even despite that....it might be worth it. Just for that chance to:
>lem A soft gurgling escapes @ as blood wells up in ^me throat, ^me lifeless eyes staring at ~killer, imploringly.
With his dying breath, a soft gurgling escapes the lank-haired man as blood wells up in his throat, his lifeless eyes staring at you, imploringly.
That possible abuse is nothing...already happens with ooc etc.
But yes, those are some nice examples...along with the other side.
As he prepares to pull his obsidian sword free of the lank-haired man's neck, the kinky-haired mercenary says in grunted sirihish, "I Told you I was a bad motherfucker."
Or
Pulling his long black dirk free of the lank-haired man's back, the tall figure in a skull embroidered black cloak says in sirihish, "Silky Kadius sends his regards...oh, and don't worry about that broach you stole."
Now true, you can do those anyway, but the entire point is for the other player to see it.
I believe it would turn PKs from gdb rage/quit posts more often to Wow, cool death posts...specially on the very fast kills.
So much better then (generic backstab message)
Welcome to Armageddon!
That thread was basically boiled down to "you do have a death emote, it's when you're in negative HP' If you get hit past negative hp, then you were kileld with a swift stroke and died instantly, and honestly don't deserve a last emote.
I like abrupt deaths as much as I like the drawn out ones. Maybe making negative hp go to -20 or just -15 would add more of a chance, that I'd be okay with.
Don't like the last words/emotes idea.
I think a better solution would be a range of health where your character is conscious but can't do anything but speak and emote (and mercy code would kick in for attackers).
::)
That's what negative hp is, but you can't speak. :P
I would be happy with -20 as well, Since that would make mercy more likely to kick in and also make it so many other things mort instead of instakill.
It is also something that would be SILLY easy to do code wise.
And to Moe....That is still the same idea, I myself do not care about the method, long as it does basicly the same as the idea.
RGS's idea would fill the bill with the least muss and fuss. While still not changing when certain things really should kill you in one or two swats. Oh, no last words or time in neg HP...What do you expect, A Mek bit your head clean in half!
Although, I do wish you could hear while morted.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 03, 2013, 05:46:33 PM
::)
That's what negative hp is, but you can't speak. :P
You're also unconscious. So... 1 out of 3... not quite the same.
Ahh, yeah. Hearing/seeing would be cool.
Although it would be harder to code, I think it would be cool if there were two stages of death. In the second one (-10 to -20) you would no longer heal naturally. This would keep people from abusing it as temp HP, create interesting RP carting your dying friends around, and still give more chances for emoting. Maybe if you could hear down to the current death point, then not in the new "verge of death", that could work out. I don't know about speaking, though.
It might also be good if you would lose HP gradually over time in the lower stage, to prevent indefinite waiting for rescue, and if you would have the ability to type "die" during this time, and give up the ghost.
You can "quit die" While morted...just FYI.
Quote from: Fredd on June 03, 2013, 03:53:25 PM
I wish you could actually enslave a pc. And them not be force stored like. "If you want to keep playing, lets do this" that could make some very interesting rp.
Why would someone not have the option to keep playing? I can't even think of a reason beyond 'I don't want to deal with slave PCs' for this.
And that is a really, really weak reason for a blatant OOC roadblock to what could be IC awesomeness.
I had a mercenary on another game, who worked for the losing side of a small conflict between criminal elements. She was captured, sold into black market slavery and ended up falling in love with her owner. She couldn't live chained and eventually rebelled, killing him to great regret (as well as his wife to absolutely no regret at all!) and escaping. She lived on the run for a really long time, killed several bounty hunter PCs, soldiers and other important stabby-killy types, as well as helping a lot of people out along the way to redeem herself for killing the man she loved. She had a bit of a dark hero type reputation when she was assassinated... while buying bread of all things.
If the staff there had forced the character to be stored, none of that would have happened and a lot of people would have missed out on all the fun, as well as all the spin-off conflicts, dramas and neat stuff that came from it.
I would be absolutely livid if I didn't have the option to just play out my characters enslavement, given how much slavery is a part of the lore here.
Quote from: Vwest on June 03, 2013, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: Fredd on June 03, 2013, 03:53:25 PM
I wish you could actually enslave a pc. And them not be force stored like. "If you want to keep playing, lets do this" that could make some very interesting rp.
Why would someone not have the option to keep playing? I can't even think of a reason beyond 'I don't want to deal with slave PCs' for this.
And that is a really, really weak reason for a blatant OOC roadblock to what could be IC awesomeness.
I had a mercenary on another game, who worked for the losing side of a small conflict between criminal elements. She was captured, sold into black market slavery and ended up falling in love with her owner. She couldn't live chained and eventually rebelled, killing him to great regret (as well as his wife to absolutely no regret at all!) and escaping. She lived on the run for a really long time, killed several bounty hunter PCs, soldiers and other important stabby-killy types, as well as helping a lot of people out along the way to redeem herself for killing the man she loved. She had a bit of a dark hero type reputation when she was assassinated... while buying bread of all things.
If the staff there had forced the character to be stored, none of that would have happened and a lot of people would have missed out on all the fun, as well as all the spin-off conflicts, dramas and neat stuff that came from it.
I would be absolutely livid if I didn't have the option to just play out my characters enslavement, given how much slavery is a part of the lore here.
I believe the official staff reasoning was something along the lines of almost every pc slave running away, or something.
Quote from: Fredd on June 03, 2013, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: Vwest on June 03, 2013, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: Fredd on June 03, 2013, 03:53:25 PM
I wish you could actually enslave a pc. And them not be force stored like. "If you want to keep playing, lets do this" that could make some very interesting rp.
Why would someone not have the option to keep playing? I can't even think of a reason beyond 'I don't want to deal with slave PCs' for this.
And that is a really, really weak reason for a blatant OOC roadblock to what could be IC awesomeness.
I had a mercenary on another game, who worked for the losing side of a small conflict between criminal elements. She was captured, sold into black market slavery and ended up falling in love with her owner. She couldn't live chained and eventually rebelled, killing him to great regret (as well as his wife to absolutely no regret at all!) and escaping. She lived on the run for a really long time, killed several bounty hunter PCs, soldiers and other important stabby-killy types, as well as helping a lot of people out along the way to redeem herself for killing the man she loved. She had a bit of a dark hero type reputation when she was assassinated... while buying bread of all things.
If the staff there had forced the character to be stored, none of that would have happened and a lot of people would have missed out on all the fun, as well as all the spin-off conflicts, dramas and neat stuff that came from it.
I would be absolutely livid if I didn't have the option to just play out my characters enslavement, given how much slavery is a part of the lore here.
I believe the official staff reasoning was something along the lines of almost every pc slave running away, or something.
Maybe someone could write up some guidelines that would alleviate staff burden and renegotiate. I mean if they get stored either way the problem has to be some other sort of staff work. If people feel strongly about wanting to play slaves. I think though that the argument will have to be more compelling than, "Please! Please! We promise we'll walk it and feed it!"
Nice story, Vwest. My favorite part is getting whacked while buying bread. It needs a slow motion mafia flick shootout.
Yeah I mean, if slave docs is as strict as elf-running docs then why not, amirite?
Naw, staff have said that slave roles in general take a lot of help staff-side to keep things interesting, and having that be a common, or even moderately frequent occurrence was too much burden of staff, for roles that ended up being incredibly short-lived, or just ended up running from their masters anyways.
Howver it seems Slaves are actually a thing now, but it's by role-call only. Which is perfectly fine in my opinion. We've got slaves but it's going to take a dedicated person to the role to get one.
Quote from: X-D on June 03, 2013, 06:23:25 PM
You can "quit die" While morted...just FYI.
Oh, true. I forgot. Never really felt the need to use that currently, since you can heal (usually) while under current negative HP (in the few times you don't outright die), but if there were a new, never recover HP (without help) category, it would almost be a necessity.
For me it depends on the character. I try not to break character. I did let someone live once, that in hind site I should have killed, but it was a grey area. I've killed those I should have let live, but again it was in a grey area. For the most part I try to not break character.
I have been pk'ed a few times from not spam fleeing raiders. Or getting attacked with arrows from hidden RF or SOH elves. I got assassinated once with pretty good rp. I liked that character, but he sure did deserve it. I've got insta-killed by a half-giant, which I thought was questionable rp, but not player complaint worthy and the scene was still really good.
I don't avoid interaction. I've only died from desert talk 3 times and the other times have had really intense rp sessions where I got robbed of my food and water or they took my sword or whatever.
Player killing is part of arm its what makes the game so good.
desert talk?
Quote from: Wastrel on June 03, 2013, 08:53:20 PM
desert talk?
Standing there and talking to the raider/victim in the desert.
so desert talk is like a meme for when talking in the wilderness goes wrong
I think you're looking a little too deep into it.
better watch out or i'll desert talk u
Quote from: Wastrel on June 03, 2013, 08:55:12 PM
so desert talk is like a meme for when talking in the wilderness goes wrong
I think spam-fleeing from mid-desert interaction is more of a cliche. Don't know if I would say its a meme. Desert talk is the opposite. Sticking around when you know it may well end up badly for your PC. It's generally considered good form, the purview of ballsy, experienced players.
The two, though opposite, are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It's possible to stick around,
then flee, or flee, get caught, then stick around.
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on June 03, 2013, 09:19:41 PM
Remember, though:
Quote from: Nyr on July 29, 2012, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2010, 10:53:27 AM
Fleeing is roleplaying! I roleplay a lot, I know this.
QFE
If your character would run like a jozhal hopped up on Krelez, by all means,
run.
Quote from: Drexel Spivey in [i]True Romance[/i]"This motherfucker's carryin' on like he ain't got a care in the world. Who know? Maybe he don't. Maybe this fool's such a bad motherfucker, he don't got to worry about nothin', he just sit down, eat my Chinese, watch my TV."
Gary Oldman as a pimp. I thought he was black the first three times I saw that movie. Rocked my world, man
If you're my target for raiding, and you spamflee, then I won. I am clearly so intimidating and fucking awesome that I strike terror into the hearts of random strangers in the wastes. I have no problem with people spamfleeing from me.
If I meant to actually kill you, spamfleeing won't make any difference anyway.
edited to add: If you're upset your mark evaded you by just running away, then you didn't plan your assault well, or you're underpowered for the job, or you're just new to the game. I never, ever fault anyone for spamfleeing. In some situations, I'd do it myself; though I find my chances of living have been better with patience and planning; spamfleeing in the past has gotten me a quick mantishead. (unless the target is an NPC. Just run from NPCs, and run far; focus on getting distance. They are mostly mindless, appropriately. Every PC I spamfleed from... well, they found me.)
All good raiding/being raided starts with good old desert talk. Its like foreplay for getting your shit stolen/stealing shit.
how does one exactly "spam flee"
The hooded guy arrives from the east.
>run
You begin running.
The hooded guy says in sirihish:
"Your money or your life."
n;n;n;e;hide
naww...
The hooded guy arrives from the east.
>flee self;n;n;n;e;e;s;e;e;e;s;e
Desert talk also leads to unlikely friendships and camaraderie. Or to being raided. It's like roulette with candy and bullets.
edit to be on topic:
I don't mind killing PCs.
I feel guilty when I'm unable to give them a reasonably colorful scene when doing so. Sometimes I'll even regret the end of interacting with the PC. The accidental deaths (of which there have been quite few, admittedly) always make me facepalm and feel horrible.
But generally speaking, since I tend to avoid resorting to the killbutton unless there's a solid reason for hitting it, I'm fine about doing so.
This is ArmageddonMUD, after all. We don't play cozy around here.
One time on a previous char, a man tried to kill me near Red Storm. We were sifting spice when he pulled a throwing knife, said something about the poison on it being my end, and tossed it. It missed. We then had a kind of sissy fight with knives, before I pulled a lumber axe and hit him hard and he ran, and I chased him down and finished him with the axe. I remember thinking "Wow...that escalated quickly."
I think I've only been killed once by a raider.
I had a brand spanking new halfbreed gemmed, and went out salting. A HG told me to give him my stuff. I tried to stand up to him. SQUISH.
My character totally had it coming.
Quote from: Scarecrow on June 04, 2013, 01:15:08 AM
One time on a previous char, a man tried to kill me near Red Storm. We were sifting spice when he pulled a throwing knife, said something about the poison on it being my end, and tossed it. It missed. We then had a kind of sissy fight with knives, before I pulled a lumber axe and hit him hard and he ran, and I chased him down and finished him with the axe. I remember thinking "Wow...that escalated quickly."
"That escalated quickly..." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh7tgX_Uaqs)
Quote from: Fredd on June 03, 2013, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: Vwest on June 03, 2013, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: Fredd on June 03, 2013, 03:53:25 PM
I wish you could actually enslave a pc. And them not be force stored like. "If you want to keep playing, lets do this" that could make some very interesting rp.
Why would someone not have the option to keep playing? I can't even think of a reason beyond 'I don't want to deal with slave PCs' for this.
And that is a really, really weak reason for a blatant OOC roadblock to what could be IC awesomeness.
I had a mercenary on another game, who worked for the losing side of a small conflict between criminal elements. She was captured, sold into black market slavery and ended up falling in love with her owner. She couldn't live chained and eventually rebelled, killing him to great regret (as well as his wife to absolutely no regret at all!) and escaping. She lived on the run for a really long time, killed several bounty hunter PCs, soldiers and other important stabby-killy types, as well as helping a lot of people out along the way to redeem herself for killing the man she loved. She had a bit of a dark hero type reputation when she was assassinated... while buying bread of all things.
If the staff there had forced the character to be stored, none of that would have happened and a lot of people would have missed out on all the fun, as well as all the spin-off conflicts, dramas and neat stuff that came from it.
I would be absolutely livid if I didn't have the option to just play out my characters enslavement, given how much slavery is a part of the lore here.
I believe the official staff reasoning was something along the lines of almost every pc slave running away, or something.
Dock karma if there isn't a good reason, as well as some good planning gone into making it happen.
There should be little to no need for staff oversight with the role, we have consent rules and by making slave collars only removable by templars / house handlers, or maybe some expensive process you pay for in Red Storm. Good luck just walking out the gate after looting the House armory if the guards imprison slaves for attempting to leave without their owner present.
I had no 'support' or special treatment in my slave role. It happened in-game, I went with it, things happened as they happened and that was that.
If someone tries to cheese the role? Storage. Someone tries to do something ridiculous? Dead PC. Someone openly starts to abuse the fact PCs can be enslaved again? Dock that karma hard.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on June 04, 2013, 02:57:23 AM
Quote from: Scarecrow on June 04, 2013, 01:15:08 AM
One time on a previous char, a man tried to kill me near Red Storm. We were sifting spice when he pulled a throwing knife, said something about the poison on it being my end, and tossed it. It missed. We then had a kind of sissy fight with knives, before I pulled a lumber axe and hit him hard and he ran, and I chased him down and finished him with the axe. I remember thinking "Wow...that escalated quickly."
"That escalated quickly..." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh7tgX_Uaqs)
That made me lol IRL when I watched it. Love Anchorman.
Quote from: Vwest on June 03, 2013, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: Fredd on June 03, 2013, 03:53:25 PM
I wish you could actually enslave a pc. And them not be force stored like. "If you want to keep playing, lets do this" that could make some very interesting rp.
Why would someone not have the option to keep playing? I can't even think of a reason beyond 'I don't want to deal with slave PCs' for this.
And that is a really, really weak reason for a blatant OOC roadblock to what could be IC awesomeness.
I had a mercenary on another game, who worked for the losing side of a small conflict between criminal elements. She was captured, sold into black market slavery and ended up falling in love with her owner. She couldn't live chained and eventually rebelled, killing him to great regret (as well as his wife to absolutely no regret at all!) and escaping. She lived on the run for a really long time, killed several bounty hunter PCs, soldiers and other important stabby-killy types, as well as helping a lot of people out along the way to redeem herself for killing the man she loved. She had a bit of a dark hero type reputation when she was assassinated... while buying bread of all things.
If the staff there had forced the character to be stored, none of that would have happened and a lot of people would have missed out on all the fun, as well as all the spin-off conflicts, dramas and neat stuff that came from it.
I would be absolutely livid if I didn't have the option to just play out my characters enslavement, given how much slavery is a part of the lore here.
What game is this?
Quote from: Morrolan on June 04, 2013, 02:42:17 AM
I think I've only been killed once by a raider.
I had a brand spanking new halfbreed gemmed, and went out salting. A HG told me to give him my stuff. I tried to stand up to him. SQUISH.
My character totally had it coming.
I thought Magickers made everyone cry?
Or did he not know any 'spells' yet?
Quote from: Wastrel on June 04, 2013, 11:16:08 AM
Quote from: Morrolan on June 04, 2013, 02:42:17 AM
I think I've only been killed once by a raider.
I had a brand spanking new halfbreed gemmed, and went out salting. A HG told me to give him my stuff. I tried to stand up to him. SQUISH.
My character totally had it coming.
I thought Magickers made everyone cry?
Or did he not know any 'spells' yet?
I hate to say it, but find out IC. Not everything you hear on the boards is true. And many, many things are only true-ish.
Quote from: Wastrel on June 04, 2013, 11:16:08 AM
Quote from: Morrolan on June 04, 2013, 02:42:17 AM
I think I've only been killed once by a raider.
I had a brand spanking new halfbreed gemmed, and went out salting. A HG told me to give him my stuff. I tried to stand up to him. SQUISH.
My character totally had it coming.
I thought Magickers made everyone cry?
Or did he not know any 'spells' yet?
Have you seen a half-giant squish something yet? If not, you will. And if you do, pay careful attention.
Never done it! I -almost- did, the other night, but I was sorta stopped from it. Circumstances, not not being able to.
Does PKilling yourself through stupid actions count? Because if so I've PKilled a lot. A LOT!
I only feel bad if they likely didn't deserve it and I am following Orders...Otherwise...OMG it feels great to murder someone that desperately deserves it ;D more so if they have been fucking you over for a weeks and weeks. Also, I never feel bad when I kill someone that would I have just robbed but they kept spam fleeing while I was trying to rp with them. I do always try to give people a good death.
I never enjoy it and always do everything possible to find alternative solutions even when it doesn't make sense for my character.
But I have done it a few times. I would say I'd much rather die to a player than to an NPC.
I'm not a big PKer, but I do every once in a while. I try to make it as RPd and interesting as fits the situation.
That being said, if you try to spam flee..... I will twink kill the fuck out of your shit before you reach the gates, and not feel bad about it.
The only PKs I've felt bad about are ones that I've dolled out abruptly (usually because I've keyed myself up so much before hand), or when I truly felt like the other character was getting a raw deal. Otherwise there's nothing quite so exciting as rolling the dice with another PC.
Lol, Skeelz, my brotha ... do you mean, dolled out, like played dress-up, or ... or this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Bob_Dole,_PCCWW_photo_portrait.JPG/220px-Bob_Dole,_PCCWW_photo_portrait.JPG)?
I wish I had been PKed more often. Even without a single emote, I'd rather go to a fellow player than some code. My characters always live forever. Find me and kill me so I can keep trying out new vibes.
Quote from: Uberskaapie on June 11, 2013, 06:50:29 PM
I wish I had been PKed more often. Even without a single emote, I'd rather go to a fellow player than some code. My characters always live forever. Find me and kill me so I can keep trying out new vibes.
Go piss people off.
Most of my PKs are on accident. :(
Quote from: Bushranger on June 04, 2013, 06:24:19 PM
Does PKilling yourself through stupid actions count? Because if so I've PKilled a lot. A LOT!
Hey, I'm a member of that club too!
And I've PKed others, and no matter how my character my act IC, OOC I always feel a bit had, cause I have no idea how long the other player has been developing/playing that particular PC.
Quote from: razorback on June 13, 2013, 03:19:35 PM
Quote from: Bushranger on June 04, 2013, 06:24:19 PM
Does PKilling yourself through stupid actions count? Because if so I've PKilled a lot. A LOT!
Hey, I'm a member of that club too!
And I've PKed others, and no matter how my character my act IC, OOC I always feel a bit had, cause I have no idea how long the other player has been developing/playing that particular PC.
Killing a horribly badly played PC probably wouldn't feel so bad.
I tend to find myself in the 'killing is the second or third option' boat.
And for being Murder, Corruption and Betrayal, I find those things are best done in small doses when people don't expect it, that way the experience is far more vibrant and people don't become too comfortable.
I love PC killing. So long as its not just random.
In alot of previous muds, I would often choose a religion, and become a pure fanatic. And all religions seem to have an opposite or counter part. And I would set the tone early for pking the other side.
The only thing that seems to be remotely similar would be to be overly fanatic towards mek or tek and kill the opposition regularly. Which very well may be an interesting idea now that I think about it...
(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/339/1/6/people_die_if_they_get_killed_by_raptorj-d34bauk.jpg)
I enjoy the thrill of the hunt.
Opportunism has it's place in a world like Armageddon, but the true hunts are the greatest...however angry you get when it gets flipped on you and you become the prey.
It's not fun to have everyone and their mom trying to kill you. It limits your willingness to see roleplay potential. But making measured enemies, or making goals of taking down so and so, and working towards it...it's a great part of the game, if you aren't averse to it.
And it fits into the game world perfectly. It enriches the story, it does not detract from it as a lot argue. Not in my experience, anyway.
Once a player sent me kudos for the death scene after I killed their PC. #HowToDoItRight #badass
I've killed a fair number of PCs because I've been in positions where it was, well, necessary. The first time I did it, I was playing a noble and I killed Ourla's PC, and I felt super-bad about it even though my PC's hand was pretty forced. There were other options, though, I just didn't see them because I was still a newb. So Ourla's PC got noobled.
Other times I didn't feel bad because PCs literally brought it on themselves by doing dumb stuff like attacking my soldier PC in the middle of a bunch of NPC soldiers, or in a jail cell. That never ends well! And a handful of occasions it's been my choice, but the PCs really, really were asking for it, for a long time, and choices for correcting their behaviors were few.
I'd say I'm very restrained with PKing, and I err on the side of not doing it if there's a reason to keep the other PC alive, because it's actually more fun to have living enemies than dead ones. To make a chess analogy, I want to keep my enemies in check, not get all the way to checkmate on either side.
I thought I was you're first!!!
The main draw to this game is the fact that death is final.
Without perma-death, we are just another RP MUD. In fact, I would go so far as to say without perma-death, a ton of the roleplay we have would be less rich, and a lot of it would even be impossible.
That being said, the end game for Armageddon is PK for the vast majority of players. Why? Because that is the final and most absolute form of power and control. So long as your PC is alive, you are winning Armageddon. There is only one way to lose, and that is to not be alive anymore.
The only thing that matters in this game is the ability to take life. If you can take life better than the next guy, he is at your mercy, and you are winning, and he is losing. You don't necessarily have to kill him, he just has to know and accept the fact that you can and he can't stop you.
If you get powerful enough that you have enough people beneath you in the "I can kill you." pool, you can in theory win Armageddon.
Don't believe me? See Tektolnes and Muk Utep for reference.
In short. I like to PK. At the end of the day, the ability to PK and not to be PK'ed is all that REALLY matters. Everything else is just filler, enjoyable filler, but filler none the less.
Edited to Add: I very rarely PK people. In fact I have lost a couple of my favorite PC's because I was too nice and didn't PK a few people I really should have when I had the opportunity and they could have done nothing about it. Of course they came back later and were the cause of my final demise. My real regret is IC'ly, I really should have killed them, it was my OOC concern over their players that made me not do it. Ahh well, fun times anyways.
Quote from: Desertman on June 21, 2013, 11:12:41 AM
The main draw to this game is the fact that death is final.
Without perma-death, we are just another RP MUD. In fact, I would go so far as to say without perma-death, a ton of the roleplay we have would be less rich, and a lot of it would even be impossible.
That being said, the end game for Armageddon is PK for the vast majority of players. Why? Because that is the final and most absolute form of power and control. So long as your PC is alive, you are winning Armageddon. There is only one way to lose, and that is to not be alive anymore.
The only thing that matters in this game is the ability to take life. If you can take life better than the next guy, he is at your mercy, and you are winning, and he is losing. You don't necessarily have to kill him, he just has to know and accept the fact that you can and he can't stop you.
If you get powerful enough that you have enough people beneath you in the "I can kill you." pool, you can in theory win Armageddon.
Don't believe me? See Tektolnes and Muk Utep for reference.
In short. I like to PK. At the end of the day, the ability to PK and not to be PK'ed is all that REALLY matters. Everything else is just filler, enjoyable filler, but filler none the less.
Edited to Add: I very rarely PK people. In fact I have lost a couple of my favorite PC's because I was too nice and didn't PK a few people I really should have when I had the opportunity and they could have done nothing about it. Of course they came back later and were the cause of my final demise. My real regret is IC'ly, I really should have killed them, it was my OOC concern over their players that made me not do it. Ahh well, fun times anyways.
Armageddon is all about power imbalance, it's true. But that imbalance leads to a lot of interesting potential stories and scenarios beyond the powerful killing the non-powerful, and whether or not such a story is allowed to developed is at the whim of the powerful. Thankfully most of the time these players do a good job treading the middle ground of correctly enforcing the brutal, imbalanced, unfair nature of Armageddon while avoiding PKing a low-powered PC just because the opportunity has presented itself.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 21, 2013, 01:00:20 PM
Quote from: Desertman on June 21, 2013, 11:12:41 AM
The main draw to this game is the fact that death is final.
Without perma-death, we are just another RP MUD. In fact, I would go so far as to say without perma-death, a ton of the roleplay we have would be less rich, and a lot of it would even be impossible.
That being said, the end game for Armageddon is PK for the vast majority of players. Why? Because that is the final and most absolute form of power and control. So long as your PC is alive, you are winning Armageddon. There is only one way to lose, and that is to not be alive anymore.
The only thing that matters in this game is the ability to take life. If you can take life better than the next guy, he is at your mercy, and you are winning, and he is losing. You don't necessarily have to kill him, he just has to know and accept the fact that you can and he can't stop you.
If you get powerful enough that you have enough people beneath you in the "I can kill you." pool, you can in theory win Armageddon.
Don't believe me? See Tektolnes and Muk Utep for reference.
In short. I like to PK. At the end of the day, the ability to PK and not to be PK'ed is all that REALLY matters. Everything else is just filler, enjoyable filler, but filler none the less.
Edited to Add: I very rarely PK people. In fact I have lost a couple of my favorite PC's because I was too nice and didn't PK a few people I really should have when I had the opportunity and they could have done nothing about it. Of course they came back later and were the cause of my final demise. My real regret is IC'ly, I really should have killed them, it was my OOC concern over their players that made me not do it. Ahh well, fun times anyways.
Armageddon is all about power imbalance, it's true. But that imbalance leads to a lot of interesting potential stories and scenarios beyond the powerful killing the non-powerful, and whether or not such a story is allowed to developed is at the whim of the powerful. Thankfully most of the time these players do a good job treading the middle ground of correctly enforcing the brutal, imbalanced, unfair nature of Armageddon while avoiding PKing a low-powered PC just because the opportunity has presented itself.
I couldn't agree more. :)
I'm totally ok with it as long as it's your PC, and not mine.
The fact that it's a perma death mud makes things about as intense as can be.
I hate/love the shock you get when a character you totally adore suddenly dies and you get mantis head... Just sat there stuttering in your own mind pointing at the screen like.. but.. what... NOOOOOO!!!
*walks off to think of another concept as awesome as the one that just died*
Generally, my PCs tend to like PKing, while the player, me, hates doing it, for the simple reason I know how hard I work on my roleplay and development, and I try to avoid ending that for others. Even in positions of power, I'd rather have the guy that is thankful I didn't kill him and wants to do me favors than the guy who died and is totally useless now. ;D
First rule of politics man ... don't lose friends you already have, trying to please ones you'll never get.
I wouldn't rely on "he'll do me favors because I didn't kill him".
Out of all the player killings I've encountered. I'd say that three to one are generally just bullshit ooc reasons to kill a bitch.
Basically every time I hear "I killed him because they were a threat." I hear "ooc: I kill them because I can.".
I'd say you probably don't have near a big enough perspective of what all could have possibly been at play to be able to make assertions like that creditably?
This game often has a lot under the hood when it comes to scheming and motivations.
I've seen enough of some players to know they're just on a powertrip. That or just lack the imagination necessary for a secondary outcome.
Do you even pk brah?
Quote from: Jingo on July 02, 2013, 09:38:37 AM
I've seen enough of some players to know they're just on a powertrip. That or just lack the imagination necessary for a secondary outcome.
Might be beating a dead horse, but are you certain it's the
players that are on a powertrip, and not the
characters? It would probably be quite difficult to distinguish between the two, since both must have the power to kill you (or whomever) to get the job done.
Yup, a lot of players gather up their skills to a certain level and then get really itchy trigger fingers because they want to see their Ferrari at work.
I'm no exception. It takes a lot of willpower for me to not go on a killing spree in a lot of scenarios. I tend to play characters who use murder as a last resort, unfortunately. I should play more killers.
But in a world where might makes right, and might is the absolute currency, power, and commodity, why wouldn't a character go mad with such power and want to use it at every opportunity, if not for the joy of the reminder of their place in all of society?
edited to add two things:
1. No EVERY PC should go trigger-happy when able to, but some should as it is a realistic possibility.
2. it would be extremely poor RP to play a character and not play out how that power affects their personality for the sake of an OOC concept of "holding back" for the sake of other characters' survivability. This is especially ridiculous in the context of murdering hundreds or thousands of NPCs ruthlessly.
In fact, I dare say it is the duty of capable PCs to kill somebody every now and then. Enact the filter of survival.
Quote from: Is Friday on July 02, 2013, 03:59:47 PM
Yup, a lot of players gather up their skills to a certain level and then get really itchy trigger fingers because they want to see their Ferrari at work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAV0XrbEwNc&t=0m45s
Quote from: Harmless on July 02, 2013, 04:00:52 PM
But in a world where might makes right, and might is the absolute currency, power, and commodity, why wouldn't a character go mad with such power and want to use it at every opportunity, if not for the joy of the reminder of their place in all of society?
Because their place in society is still among the shit-coated bottom rungs? (assuming they're a commoner)
Oh, also because it's a dick move and everyone will hate you for it on an OOC level.
jk, folks. jk
Quote from: Harmless on July 02, 2013, 04:00:52 PM
But in a world where might makes right, and might is the absolute currency, power, and commodity, why wouldn't a character go mad with such power and want to use it at every opportunity, if not for the joy of the reminder of their place in all of society?
Because having a huge swinging dick, sword, or skills list, any of the above, does not equate with ultimate power. There is a greater form of might than coded power, and it's rooted in the dominating Templarate, the spoiled nobility, and the overly privileged and over-silked merchant house heads, or even in some cases tribal elders. Yes, you can take your coded power and try to use it to rule the virtual world. But I think everyone involved with (redacted) can concur: No matter how big your pc's skill tree is, there's always something that can come along in two seconds and kill them. Why wouldn't a character go mad with such power? Good common sense.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 02, 2013, 04:05:46 PM
Good common sense.
Common sense, or a criminal mind. You deny the existence of crime in Zalanthas? Common sense dictates the necessity of murder at times, and in using that tool I have survived dozens of days played, with PKs distributed across IC years and no investigation for any of them.
Knowing that someone has that power is not always a deal breaker for the murderer PC either, even with the existence of an "all-seeing" Templarate and lots of do-goody little soldiers at their beck and call. Just like in real life, God may have angels, popes, and bishops, but at some point in the chain of God's command there are humans, and humans can be manipulated. Being known as a murderer can also lead to benefits, as not everyone in the world agrees with said power structures.
Free will, is power. A mind with just enough resources can enact change. Killing is an essential component of it. This MUD would have stagnated a few years after its creation if it weren't for PK and permanent death, and no matter how much "OOC griefing" ::) has occurred over the years it has not yet died. Change requires destruction, and if PCs are what this game is made of, PCs need to be destroyed.
Yeah, wow, what? Why should you care if everyone "hates you on an OOC level" for killing a PC in a game bearing the tagline Murder, Corruption, Betrayal ?
I wonder how many players we'd get if it was Goodwill, Accountability, Ginka Fruits ...
Really, though, Q, what?
Quote from: Kismetic on July 02, 2013, 04:16:35 PM
Yeah, wow, what? Why should you care if everyone "hates you on an OOC level" for killing a PC in a game bearing the tagline Murder, Corruption, Betrayal ?
I wonder how many players we'd get if it was Goodwill, Accountability, Ginka Fruits ...
Really, though, Q, what?
I should've added a j/k to that somewhere. >_>
Haha, d'oh. Nice.
Edit: I wanna pitch in that I agree with Harmless to an extent. Even if you're not "mad" with power, if you don't wield it and show it, there is a chance for it to deteriorate. Power is often a neat series of appearances, an assertion over the mind of the beholder that your life is peanuts next to the macrocosm of the entity you've encountered. Killing people is only one way of many to show power, though.
Quote from: Harmless on July 02, 2013, 04:12:02 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 02, 2013, 04:05:46 PM
Good common sense.
Common sense, or a criminal mind. You deny the existence of crime in Zalanthas? Common sense dictates the necessity of murder at times, and in using that tool I have survived dozens of days played, with PKs distributed across IC years and no investigation for any of them.
Knowing that someone has that power is not always a deal breaker for the murderer PC either, even with the existence of an "all-seeing" Templarate and lots of do-goody little soldiers at their beck and call. Just like in real life, God may have angels, popes, and bishops, but at some point in the chain of God's command there are humans, and humans can be manipulated. Being known as a murderer can also lead to benefits, as not everyone in the world agrees with said power structures.
Free will, is power. A mind with just enough resources can enact change. Killing is an essential component of it. This MUD would have stagnated a few years after its creation if it weren't for PK and permanent death, and no matter how much "OOC griefing" ::) has occurred over the years it has not yet died. Change requires destruction, and if PCs are what this game is made of, PCs need to be destroyed.
Good common sense refers to not just going around killing everything and going mad with power (because of the factors I listed), not why you'd never murder anyone anywhere ever. But because if you go mad with power and you're low enough on the totem pole, people are going to kill you quick.
Which seems a bit suicidal if you ignore that fact. (IMO, of course)
Ah, I see. Having never gone on any senseless murder sprees IG, nor ever having heard of anyone or talked to anyone who has, I can't comment on whatever it was you were complaining about.
Quote from: Harmless on July 02, 2013, 04:32:06 PM
Ah, I see. Having never gone on any senseless murder sprees IG, nor ever having heard of anyone or talked to anyone who has, I can't comment on whatever it was you were complaining about.
I don't get how there was a complaint. It was an observation. There was no accusation in it, it was what I've seen so far in game, and at the end, a bit of opinion thrown in. ???
Quote from: Kismetic on July 02, 2013, 04:16:35 PM
I wonder how many players we'd get if it was Goodwill, Accountability, Ginka Fruits ...
I have an urge to sig you once again..
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 02, 2013, 05:20:07 PM
Quote from: Harmless on July 02, 2013, 04:32:06 PM
Ah, I see. Having never gone on any senseless murder sprees IG, nor ever having heard of anyone or talked to anyone who has, I can't comment on whatever it was you were complaining about.
I don't get how there was a complaint. It was an observation. There was no accusation in it, it was what I've seen so far in game, and at the end, a bit of opinion thrown in. ???
Then you're saying you've "seen senseless murder sprees?" Really? Cause I haven't.
I haven't bore witness to "killing sprees", but I -have- been ganked by relatively long-lived PCs for, well... No reason at all, really. Got a feeling I wasn't the only one in these instances too.
Took a poisoned arrow from a stealthy a few steps outside of Allanak. No interaction. Hadn't even had time to make enemies.
Another time was in the Labyrinth, not even an hour played, still wearing my newbie gear. I was looked at. Guy left the room. Got sapped out of nowhere, dropped to six stam. Barely had time to look at te guy before I dropped. Same dude. Mantishead.
Rumbled the fuck out of my jim-jams. *grumble*
Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 02, 2013, 06:17:42 PM
...a few steps outside of Allanak. ...
Another time was in the Labyrinth, ...
And there's your lesson.
EDIT: OKAY I'll elaborate to be nice. Seriously, it's not WHERE you were, but WHEN you were there. There, hope that helps.
I'm pretty sure Qzzrbl is well familiar with the Labyrinth and its social-political climate because that's the only starting location he uses. He's just bitching.
Quote from: Harmless on July 02, 2013, 05:53:12 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 02, 2013, 05:20:07 PM
Quote from: Harmless on July 02, 2013, 04:32:06 PM
Ah, I see. Having never gone on any senseless murder sprees IG, nor ever having heard of anyone or talked to anyone who has, I can't comment on whatever it was you were complaining about.
I don't get how there was a complaint. It was an observation. There was no accusation in it, it was what I've seen so far in game, and at the end, a bit of opinion thrown in. ???
Then you're saying you've "seen senseless murder sprees?" Really? Cause I haven't.
One time, there was this mul who killed a lot of PCs... you might classify it as a spree.
I redacted the whole redacted. Please use more discretion posting on the GDB. -Nyr
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 02, 2013, 07:15:51 PM
given the (redacted/redacted)and their (redacted)
This really isn't redacted enough. This is one of those things I found out over the GDB/teamspeak becuase of comments like yours.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 02, 2013, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 02, 2013, 07:15:51 PM
given the (redacted/redacted)and their (redacted)
This really isn't redacted enough. This is one of those things I found out over the GDB/teamspeak becuase of comments like yours.
further vaguened it.
AGH: You should probably have a grace period of 30-40 minutes to think about how IC what you post is. I'm off-hand guessing you've been reported a dozen times for the same offense.
Quote from: Is Friday on July 02, 2013, 06:42:39 PM
I'm pretty sure Qzzrbl is well familiar with the Labyrinth and its social-political climate because that's the only starting location he uses. He's just bitching.
I am, man. But still, nobody should have a reason to off a guy they've never met/seen and still in their Hall of Kings suit. >:(
None.
I don't care what reason you fabricate to justify it ICly. It's a crappy thing to do.
IMHO
Maybe he was starving to death and needed the 25 coins your corpse is worth. It's the 'rinth, man. You know nothing from your point of view.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 02, 2013, 08:02:16 PM
Maybe he was starving to death and needed the 25 coins your corpse is worth. It's the 'rinth, man. You know nothing from your point of view.
God I wish this ever happened in this game.
Quote from: Kismetic on July 02, 2013, 04:16:35 PM
Yeah, wow, what? Why should you care if everyone "hates you on an OOC level" for killing a PC in a game bearing the tagline Murder, Corruption, Betrayal ?
I wonder how many players we'd get if it was Goodwill, Accountability, Ginka Fruits ...
Really, though, Q, what?
IMHO its part of the problem. People come into the game thinking its DeathmatchMUD. When really its a game about role playing relationships with other characters.
Quote from: Jingo on July 02, 2013, 08:06:53 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on July 02, 2013, 04:16:35 PM
Yeah, wow, what? Why should you care if everyone "hates you on an OOC level" for killing a PC in a game bearing the tagline Murder, Corruption, Betrayal ?
I wonder how many players we'd get if it was Goodwill, Accountability, Ginka Fruits ...
Really, though, Q, what?
IMHO its part of the problem. People come into the game thinking its DeathmatchMUD. When really its a game about role playing relationships with other characters.
I couldn't disagree more. You say people come in thinking it's DeathmatchMUD... But I've never seen people treat it that way ICly.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 02, 2013, 08:40:39 PM
I couldn't disagree more. You say people come in thinking it's DeathmatchMUD... But I've never seen people treat it that way ICly.
I think staff have mentioned before (maybe it was Nyr?) that this auto-kill behavior often seems to be the province of newbs to the game. If they manage to hang around, they realize PKilling isn't what ARM is about and they mature past it. If they don't hang around...they don't hang around.
Just an idea. You can BOTH be right, maybe! :)
Sure but it's never pervasive, nor specific enough to blame the tagline of "murder, corruption, betrayal" Over people who simply come from PK hack and slash muds and have little idea of what RP actually is.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 02, 2013, 07:26:32 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 02, 2013, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 02, 2013, 07:15:51 PM
given the (redacted/redacted)and their (redacted)
This really isn't redacted enough. This is one of those things I found out over the GDB/teamspeak becuase of comments like yours.
further vaguened it.
you didn't. I did. Please use more discretion posting on the GDB.
Quote from: Nyr on July 02, 2013, 07:15:51 PM
I redacted the whole redacted.
That's a little funny. Sig'ed.
Backstab thread.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 02, 2013, 08:02:16 PM
Maybe he was starving to death and needed the 25 coins your corpse is worth. It's the 'rinth, man. You know nothing from your point of view.
random killing is fucking stupid and you're a goddamn idiot who needs to get culled if you do it
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 12:53:18 AM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 02, 2013, 08:02:16 PM
Maybe he was starving to death and needed the 25 coins your corpse is worth. It's the 'rinth, man. You know nothing from your point of view.
random killing is fucking stupid and you're a goddamn idiot who needs to get culled if you do it
Okay?
'Random Killing' can be defined as so many things by so many people. While I am not saying it would never happen, there can be more things involved then the victim knows.
Edit: Aswell, the occaisional random whoopsy keeps you on your toes. Once in a while I think there needs to be a Hocky Masked, Serial Killer. heh heh heh
You can kill all day everyday but at least emote a scene.
Otherwise fuck off.
It really depends.
Nah, it really doesnt. If there are extenuating circumstances, like if your character is begging to be assassinated, or if you have roleplayed upto a certain point with someone and are at the coded-action stage, sure. But otherwise, random killing someone without any sort of roleplay IS COMPLETELY INEXSCUSABLE and an utterly CHICKENSHIT AWFUL thing to do. Period.
Dude, if you got ganked, there is a high probability that your character was doing something to 'ask for it' that you weren't aware of. You can play this game for years and still find out the hard way that there are places you shouldn't go as X race, or things you should never say to Y group that you had no idea about. It's usually better if you give the killer the benefit of the doubt and assume you were, in fact, asking for it in some way that you were clueless about. It's better for you and your continued sanity, might prevent it from happening again, and your ire isn't going to affect your killer either way.
Besides, you're assuming that they didn't emote. They might have been hemoting or semoting (depending on the situation) that entire time, and you never saw a thing. Hate to break it to you, but players don't really have a responsibility to let you see your death coming, or make it fun for you. It's considered OOCly sporting, yes, but every player's responsibility is to play realistically. Playing entertainingly or narratively is just icing on the cake.
Quote from: James de Monet on July 05, 2013, 02:41:12 AM
Dude, if you got ganked, there is a high probability that your character was doing something to 'ask for it' that you weren't aware of. You can play this game for years and still find out the hard way that there are places you shouldn't go as X race, or things you should never say to Y group that you had no idea about. It's usually better if you give the killer the benefit of the doubt and assume you were, in fact, asking for it in some way that you were clueless about. It's better for you and your continued sanity, might prevent it from happening again, and your ire isn't going to affect your killer either way.
Besides, you're assuming that they didn't emote. They might have been hemoting or semoting (depending on the situation) that entire time, and you never saw a thing. Hate to break it to you, but players don't really have a responsibility to let you see your death coming, or make it fun for you. It's considered OOCly sporting, yes, but every player's responsibility is to play realistically. Playing entertainingly or narratively is just icing on the cake.
I'm still slightly upset at a PK that happened, really, for no other reason than I followed my PC's movements to join a certain Clan, and that Clan's current PC leader was pissing someone off. So I was killed, to show the PC leader that the other clan meant business.
I mean. Shit. I get it. And I damn sure fucking hope it worked. But man... getting One-Hit Killed still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, if for no other reason than I had no real chance. I mean, I walked into a room. Checked a shopkeep's supplies, and boom. Mantis head.
But hey, at least it drove a plotline that I'll never know about.
"PK'd" in an RPI mud...lol...just lol
Sure, sometimes, there are hidden mechanations your PC is unaware of, but when you are lel random killed its basically for awful shallow arbitrary reasons or no reason at all and anybody who's not lying to themselves knows it. Its not condusive to good roleplay or a roleplay atmosphere. If you are killing someone you fucking better emote one way or another. This is not news. Hate to break it to you, but roleplaying is required.
The only times I've been PK'd is by idiots accidently killing via mechanics they didn't realize would or mechanics they forgot about.
So engaging! So realistic! Such immersion!
It's not hard to assume this just happened to you. Regardless, if you feel they didn't roleplay well enough, send in a player complaint? I got the impression that's what they're there for.
Also, I'd like to stress: Roleplaying and emoting are not the same thing. It is perfectly possible to emote without roleplaying, and to roleplay without emoting. Of course, it is preferrable to share emotes with the world for flavor and whatnot, but that's another point entirely.
I'm not trying to say it is a non-issue, though. Of course it hurts to lose a character you've put time and effort into. More so if it seems like a pointless death without much flavor. But then, NPCs rarely give you grace periods or flavor emotes, do they? Just saying - the lack of roleplay isn't the problem, as most deaths aren't PKs and therefore likely to be without flowery emotes. Though I think I'd love getting a little text as a player saying why we died, sometimes. I know this is unlikely due to IC secrets and all that. But if you're moving to a new starting location, you might never know why and it will always be a sore spot...
QuoteAlso, I'd like to stress: Roleplaying and emoting are not the same thing. It is perfectly possible to emote without roleplaying, and to roleplay without emoting. Of course, it is preferrable to share emotes with the world for flavor and whatnot, but that's another point entirely.
Oh please. Yes it is. Emote or talking, thats fine. Stop with the contrarian overly elaborate justifiications for something that is inherently simple. Stop arguing semantics. Stop nitpicking. What I'm saying is pretty fucking basic. Dont randomly kill people with arbitrary justifications without giving them some due process and roleplay to go along with their death. I'm obviously not talking about all the little what ifs. BUT NEERRRR IM A STEALTHY ASSASSIN HEMOTING. BUTBUTBUTBUTBUT. Shut. Up.
What you're saying ... is a fictional hyperbolic situation in your head that no one would actually disagree with but isn't really the reality of the situation, and then you're parading that around on a high horse, asserting it as fact when it isn't, with inflammatory rhetoric to top it off.
The situation you describe is not the reality of the game world. It might, possibly, rarely occur that someone is just treating the game like a hack and slash MUD to grief other players, but there are tools and guardians (player complaints, and staff) in place to curb that sort of thing when it happens.
If you feel sore about a PK and think it was done abusively ... file a player complaint.
Griefing about it on the GDB is in poor taste.
Quote from: The Rules Helpfile For Armageddon3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of. The sole exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.
Every time I hear people complain about death without emotes or substantial roleplay, it makes me think of a movie ...
Specifically: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zEz0vQr9dQ
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 04:51:17 AMBUT NEERRRR IM A STEALTHY ASSASSIN HEMOTING. BUTBUTBUTBUTBUT. Shut. Up.
Sig worthy.
Congratulations.
emote all you want, i'm gonna grief you off the game, scrublord
Quote from: Kismetic on July 05, 2013, 06:23:24 AM
Every time I hear people complain about death without emotes or substantial roleplay, it makes me think of a movie ...
Specifically: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zEz0vQr9dQ
Warning: if you haven't seen the Departed, don't watch that clip.
But yes. Sometimes death is very swift. Though now I'm imagining that actor throwing a temper tantrum bc his character didn't get a fancy death scene, lol.
Wastrel, you need to relax. Everyone's been instakilled, it's not pleasant but hopefully there was something behind it other than "they can". If you're pissed after you see Mantis Head out of nowhere, drop a line to staff and they'll see if the killer needs some talking to.
Usually, random murder has enough of an IC consequence that there is really no need to discourage it OOCly. Even the website says that Zalanthan societies have ways of dealing with crazy killers. So what is the big deal if someone wants to play one? Play the character that kills murderers and/or make sure the virtual world reacts by reporting it to staff.
Even if there are proper reactions to everything.. Just going 'no you're wrong there was a reason must've been yep' is a bit silly. We all know that pk's for silly reasons can and do happen, and even if it might be the minority of all cases, admonishing someone about a case you have no knowledge of is ignorant at best. Stop it.
I think you have that backwards. No one is saying they are sure there had to have been a reason. People are saying that Wastrel has no way of being sure there was no reason hence griefing about it on the GDB and referencing the PK in question is not in good taste ... because ...
A.
In the majority of PK instances there was sound reasoning and plenty of RP leading up to it regardless of whether or not the victim got to see that.
B.
Quote from: Patuk on July 05, 2013, 09:55:23 AM
... admonishing someone about a case you have no incomplete knowledge of is ignorant at best.
And C.
Quote from: The Rules Helpfile For Armageddon3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of. The sole exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.
Yeah. Complaining on the GDB about IG events that happened less than a year ago is also "bad form." And "bad form" is a terrible Internet sin.
I'm not sure when this 'year ago' rule started but I think it's a gdb trend rather than documented fact. Some things are basically never ok to talk about, anyway. If you absolutely have to vent, write yourself a pm or talk to a friend who doesn't play the game.
Wastrel, you are allowed to be frustrated. You may be right about the circumstances. And if you lost a pc you enjoyed, I am sorry to hear it.
It's hard to get resolution on the gdb. I think someone mentioned a character report. Send one in, because if you're right, staff should be aware of a pattern for this sort of thing. And if you're wrong at least you've had a chance to vent to people that have the whole picture.
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 02:22:42 AM
Really upset kinda stuff.
Quote from: musashi on July 05, 2013, 05:55:06 AM
Quote from: The Rules Helpfile For Armageddon3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of. The sole exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.
My chars have been pk'ed twice while I was AFK. One I didn't see coming at all, she betrayed by her -boss-. That was my FIRST character. My chars have been murdered by clanmates in clan halls or elsewhere and then gone on to explain the murder away by whatever IC reasons that kept them perfectly clean looking. Been (censored) by (censored) without so much as a hint. Instantly, whack, NO chance of survival. You know what they say... Murder... Corruption... Betrayal.
It's frustrating to invest X amount of time on a character only to have it ganked. It's especially frustrating when there doesn't -seem- to be a reason and there is nothing leading up to it (emotes) but the truth is that it's environmentally appropriate for that to happen. There are murderers everywhere. Even that person sitting at the bar next to you, laughing at your jokes.
If there is -any- question as to whether the murder or attempted murder was a result of OOC twinkiness and not IC'ly appropriate, make a player complaint. In all my time here I have done that once, and I did so even suspecting it was a newbie that didn't know better. Everyone has to learn.
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 04:51:17 AM
BUT NEERRRR IM A STEALTHY ASSASSIN HEMOTING. BUTBUTBUTBUTBUT. Shut. Up.
This always a very hard situation to play from both ends.
In an ideal world, people would roleplay every time correctly and realistically from both ends. You have to realize this is not an ideal world. You can't trust other players to play out scenes and not just insta-run.
I will make you a deal. I will emote with you, instead of hemoting myself where you can't see it, if you agree to not run before I can one-shot your character. If you will willingly stand there and not try to run knowing that you are going to die, I will roleplay with you first. How many people are going to do that?
It is really a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
The majority of people are going to run out screaming, "Assassin! Assassin!" just as fast as they can the very first second you so much as emote/speak, instead of just typing "backstab man". That is why the people you see that "aren't roleplaying", are doing it the way you see them, or well, don't see them, doing it.
That is why hemote/think/etc...etc...even exist, or at least that is a good reason for them to exist. The staff can know there was roleplay and justification behind the killing, without the coded limitations of the game making it impossible to roleplay and still get the kill.
If people would stand still while I roleplay with them and just let me kill them, I would talk with them and emote with them every time before every kill. The fact is they ALWAYS insta-flee and report you to the nearest templar instead.
I make sure to randomly no-emote kill a few PCs for no reason every once in a while. I feel it adds to plots.
Quote from: Desertman on July 05, 2013, 11:22:09 AM
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 04:51:17 AM
BUT NEERRRR IM A STEALTHY ASSASSIN HEMOTING. BUTBUTBUTBUTBUT. Shut. Up.
This always a very hard situation to play from both ends.
In an ideal world, people would roleplay every time correctly and realistically from both ends. You have to realize this is not an ideal world. You can't trust other players to play out scenes and not just insta-run.
I will make you a deal. I will emote with you, instead of hemoting myself where you can't see it, if you agree to not run before I can one-shot your character. If you will willingly stand there and not try to run knowing that you are going to die, I will roleplay with you first. How many people are going to do that?
It is really a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
The majority of people are going to run out screaming, "Assassin! Assassin!" just as fast as they can the very first second you so much as emote/speak, instead of just typing "backstab man". That is why the people you see that "aren't roleplaying", are doing it the way you see them, or well, don't see them, doing it.
That is why hemote/think/etc...etc...even exist, or at least that is a good reason for them to exist. The staff can know there was roleplay and justification behind the killing, without the coded limitations of the game making it impossible to roleplay and still get the kill.
If people would stand still while I roleplay with them and just let me kill them, I would talk with them and emote with them every time before every kill. The fact is they ALWAYS insta-flee and report you to the nearest templar instead.
Sadly, Dman has it pretty much right. Very VERY rarely, is there times where people stand still, and emote out a fight to the death, or even emote out period. I've been on both sides of the situation. I had a fight with someone that was coded combat, then disengages after reels to emote a bit about what happened, before re-engaging the fight. I've had times where I stood around, waiting to emote with someone, and they just went hide;backstab idiot.... because by the time I got my emote typed in it said "you don't see that person he- WHAGHGHEHAGHHGHGHG".
The more you instastab people rather than kill them in a proper scene, the more people will know that they have twinks after them and the less inclined they'll be to accept their fates and RP out their death.
You're no better than what you're admonishing.
For the record, I have never bitched about being PKed on the GDB, except for once, my VERY first post on this GDB over 10 years ago. Haven't done it once since to my knowledge, and I have had a lot of deaths I might have bitched about.
Recently, I made a thread where I was emotional and complaining about certain RP styles, and some people in the thread assumed and posted that it must be because I had just been PKed or died, but neither were true. I can guarantee it wasn't true, but I can't tell you why I was emotional because it was about [redacted.]
Anyway, that being said, I never blame anyone for getting heated up and bitching about being killed here. It's one of those faux pas that just happens on here a lot and I have seen it over a gajillion times by now. It happens so often that, apparently, people will even make the assumption that it's the reason behind X or Y post when it really isn't, showing how frequently it comes up.
Also, for the record, you will have a very hard time earning respect from anybody on the GDB. There are just lots of perma-bad feelings some people have forever, and if they suspect you of being Y or Z guy that ganked them in the past or whatever... then that's it.
Moreover, the amount of "GDB-sleuthing" that goes on is just ridiculous as well, and it often leads to bizarre miscommunications or acts of such rudeness that you can't even imagine how stupid the poster might feel after they did it.
Anyway, I learned my lesson. Edited to rephrase and simplify: I will be very cautious about the perceived tone of my posts if I am quoting someone in it, or responding directly to somebody, to avoid the possibility of hurt feelings. I wouldn't want my own feelings hurt again, and I will try harder not to do it in the future.
/derail
Guess the point of this post was, PK creates bad feelings, and bad feelings lead to bad behavior on the GDB. They're both interlinked, and sadly, I think they're inevitable. I'm just glad the MUD still lives and we find some way to coexist with each other at a basic level.
I actually was in a really bad mood last night. lol. And a little more than intoxicated HAPPY 4TH BITCHES
Quote from: Qzzrblbut I -have- been ganked by relatively long-lived PCs for, well... No reason at all, really. Got a feeling I wasn't the only one in these instances too.
I've been randomly attacked several times, but I've managed to flee in various ways, thats mainly where my rage was coming from. I just find it absolutely stupid people would do this. Musashi says it doesn't happen, that people aren't random killed, that people aren't randomly attacked, uh, well, they are. Also, Musashi, you dont "grief" on a forum. This is an adult game for adults...however if my language was a bit strong or blunt I apologize. I cross my heart and hope to die my rant had nothing to do with recent IC events.
Quote from: Delirium on July 05, 2013, 08:34:19 AM
Warning: if you haven't seen the Departed, don't watch that clip you're a loser, and should be backstabbed.
ftfy
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 02:17:29 PM
I've been randomly attacked several times, but I've managed to flee in various ways, thats mainly where my rage was coming from. I just find it absolutely stupid people would do this. Musashi says it doesn't happen, that people aren't random killed, that people aren't randomly attacked, uh, well, they are. Also, Musashi, you dont "grief" on a forum. This is an adult game for adults...however if my language was a bit strong or blunt I apologize. I cross my heart and hope to die my rant had nothing to do with recent IC events.
No (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,45617.msg762224.html#msg762224). Musashi didn't say that (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,45617.msg762259.html#msg762259).
Musashi said:
Quote from: musashi on July 05, 2013, 05:55:06 AM
The situation you describe is not the reality of the game world. It might, possibly, rarely occur that someone is just treating the game like a hack and slash MUD to grief other players, but there are tools and guardians (player complaints, and staff) in place to curb that sort of thing when it happens.
And
Quote from: musashi on July 05, 2013, 09:58:02 AM
No one is saying they are sure there had to have been a reason. People are saying that Wastrel has no way of being sure there was no reason.
okay dude whatever
That's how all of musashi's arguments end. Lol
Sometimes, I will rustle some jimmies just to get musashi going, it's a good show.
First, Wastrel...I wasn't actually trying to remark on words and all...but whatever, I could've phrased it way better. I get your point, anyway, and I agree with it principally. Heck, get a couple canned emotes if you're planning to kill someone. Paste and Enter, and you've gotten some flavor. Some kind of motivation. And kudos to all assassin targets that don't flee if they couldn't/wouldn't IC, and emote instead.
As for PC killing, I must say I prefer ingame conflict to NPC mobs killing you. As long as there's good reason to, and all that. Act it out, don't chase murderers to the other side of the Known all the time (more "oh, it happened outside the gates and it wasn't my best friend, whatever...just don't get near me" characters) and so on. Forget the exact looks of who was trying to kill you. Murder, corruption, betrayal. Blame someone else (that woman at the bar that's always insulting you). Would-be killers: leave 'em naked in the desert, remind them that next time...give the game some flavor, people. If some drunk thug insults you at the bar...brawl 'em, don't hire an assassin to kill them.
I guess that's my main opinion on PK: if it's appropriate, yes please! (with some emotes on top, I promise I won't spam-flee?). If it's not really...do something else. Don't escalate it so quickly. Sure, their death might be coming, but give them the fight for a while. Bonus points for letting them see it coming and understand why and all that.
Quote from: Hitsuchi on July 05, 2013, 04:13:43 PM
I promise I won't spam-flee?).
Sometimes that survival instinct kicks in as a player,
as a player, and your character ends up doing something it wouldn't, like suddenly forgetting you'd willingly die for this person who's killing you, or that you saw it coming and could have not been there.
At -best- we can -try- to remember to emote when in the heat of the spur of the moment moment (not premeditated) and try not to react like we would if it's an NPC coming from the next room to slaughter you. When the shit goes down though, I've found all planning, all good intentions go right out the door.
This thread delivers.
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 04:51:17 AMWhat I'm saying is pretty fucking basic. Dont randomly kill people with arbitrary justifications without giving them some due process and roleplay to go along with their death.
First of all, as others have pointed out, the situation you're talking about is dubious. You claim it hasn't even happened to you, but you're very angry about it. I've been playing here for a decade or so, plenty of which was spent in lawless regions, and to this day, these so-called random, pointless attacks have been rare to non-existent.
I have been on the delivering end of a fair number of murder scenes due to the kinds of roles I play, and yes, some of those were abrupt lights-off scenarios where the victim had little or no advance warning of what was happening. Many times that is the
right was to play such a scene. Sometimes I have extended the scene a bit while the victim is unconscious or mortally wounded, but how much better is that, really? There's only so many ways to emote bleeding out, and extending someone's suffering by spamming them with emotes about ransacking through their stuff or about how you're about to cut their throat could be seen as gloating, adding insult to injury, or giving them false hopes of their PC surviving. Often victims will "quit die" when mortally wounded because emoting their PC lying half-dead on the ground doesn't appeal to them.
Giving someone a corny "Hello, Mr. Bond"-style death scene while they are conscious may be appropriate roleplay sometimes (particularly if you are in a high power role like a Templar), but often it just isn't. If you try a scene like this, you can count on your victim waying everyone they know for reinforcements and/or to avenge them, and your PC knows this. It can easily lead to the death of your PC if they're not careful. Elaborate death scenes happen sometimes, but it's the very real and perfectly IC danger of a lights-out kind of scenario that makes these scenes special and gives PC lives urgency.
This is a harsh desert world full of murder, corruption, and betrayal (MCB). You don't have a right to due process. You don't have a right to face your accuser. PCs who are personally "asking for it" generally get killed quickly. But PCs who aren't asking for it, or who are only indirectly asking for it in ways that are no fault of their own, can meet the same fate. Here are some ways of indirectly asking for it:
- Having a rival successfully spread a rumor that your PC is somehow "asking for it." (Too bad, so sad. This is a wonderfully Zalanthan plotline.)
- Getting in the way of someone's plans. (Another great plotline.)
- Knowing too much. (Another great plotline.)
- Working for someone who's "asking for" an underling to get murdered. (Yet another great plotline. If your PC is shrewd, they may wish to examine the political standing of their potential employer before joining on. For all the GDB noise about "All Zalanthan commoners would beg to join any clan," Zalanthans should know that big business in the Known is potentially bloody business, and they have good reason to try to scrape by on their own if they think that the risks of that kind of life outweigh the risks of affiliating themselves with a clan.)
Zalanthas is about roleplaying, storytelling, drama, and intrigue. Go watch, say, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Game of Thrones (haven't seen it but I have no doubt the same kind of intrigue is featured there). All of these are works with very similar MCB-style dramatic themes, that will give example of what makes for compelling plotlines and drama revolving around murder. Sometimes the victims don't know what's coming, don't really deserve what's happening to them, and died for someone else's selfish benefit. Oftentimes, making the murder look like a "random" slaying is part of the plot as well. Yeah, that sucks a little bit more in a MUD where the victim PC has a 1st-person perspective, and doesn't get to omnisciently view all the intrigue and plotting before and after that murder. But those plotlines are bread and butter of Zalanthas. They are what makes the game exciting. It's the reason we keep logging on.
Sometimes a murder is just a punctuation mark in a larger story. I'm sorry if your PC was the one that died in that story, but honestly, you should be flattered. Your PC was the unknowing star of the plotline, and will undoubtedly be remembered better than Grebber #226 who died to Scrab #0199843 in the desert. Make a new PC and try to learn the political game a bit better. Maybe next time, you'll be the hitman, or the one paying them. Then, you can do the scene however you want, or try to accomplish all your goals without murder, or whatever you like. But don't be surprised if the scenario looks totally different on the other side of the knife.
I've been randomly attacked like 3 times on fresh characters with NO provocation
sometimes by people I've never even met. It happens. Thats why I'm angry.
If you are deadset on killing someone in the most codedly efficient way possible at least copypaste something or have some aliases ready.
QuoteOften victims will "quit die" when mortally wounded because emoting their PC lying half-dead on the ground doesn't appeal to them.
This sounds like BS. The vast majority of players would roleplay out a scene if they were killed by another PC. You dont have to lecture me on the harshness of the world. But lets be frank, there are obvious limitations to the code and at the end of the day this is not a pseudo world simulator but rather a roleplaying mud. I'm not talking about epic assassin plots or backstabs, I'm talking about shitheads you've never met who literally have no reason to kill besides levleing up their backstab or killing because THEY R SCARY KILLER GUYZ immediately attacking you without so much of a scene or emote or ANYTHING. And like I said, my PC didn't get PK'd. I'm just a firebrand.
Dude, we get it. You're against this extremely hyperbolic situation that exists prodominantly in your imagination. If you think you see it happening in game by all means file a player complaint because nobody else wants it to happen either. Just don't get too upset that none of us are overly concerned because we've rarely if ever had that experience.
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 05:41:43 PM
I've been randomly attacked like 3 times on fresh characters with NO provocation sometimes by people I've never even met. It happens. Thats why I'm angry.
I really wonder if you're mistaking the actions of NPCs for PCs. There are many places in the gameworld where NPCs will indeed attack your PC with no provocation (or none that you are aware of).
Other than that, I have never seen this happen in game. And it seems like other players haven't either. That's why I'm wondering whether there's some wild misinterpretation of things going on here.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 05, 2013, 08:38:39 PM
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 05:41:43 PM
I've been randomly attacked like 3 times on fresh characters with NO provocation sometimes by people I've never even met. It happens. Thats why I'm angry.
I really wonder if you're mistaking the actions of NPCs for PCs. There are many places in the gameworld where NPCs will indeed attack your PC with no provocation (or none that you are aware of).
Other than that, I have never seen this happen in game. And it seems like other players haven't either. That's why I'm wondering whether there's some wild misinterpretation of things going on here.
I have, and I've seen it done numerous times.
That said... in many (more than half but not all) of the cases where you don't SEE the RP, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or maybe you even do see (part of) the RP but because you're not seeing the full picture, it still feels cheap.
I'm not talking about NPCs lol.
Other people in this thread have said they have had the same experience as me. Anyway. Basically all I'm trying to say is if you are going to kill someone at least give them a fair shake as far as roleplay is concerned and dont be too powergameyish.
Quote from: musashi on July 05, 2013, 08:03:48 PM
Dude, we get it. You're against this extremely hyperbolic situation that exists prodominantly in your imagination. If you think you see it happening in game by all means file a player complaint because nobody else wants it to happen either. Just don't get too upset that none of us are overly concerned because we've rarely if ever had that experience.
What Musashi means is, "Dear newer player, we understand your concern because it is a concern we all also have. We might not see this often, but, we can understand how disappointing this would be. Please file a player complaint if/when this happens and feel free to talk to a helper as well if you have any questions. Please keep enjoying this great game along with the rest of us."
Musashi, he means well, he really does.
i thought he was saying he was a sperglord
i might have misinterpreted him tho what with being a stupid noobie n' all
:-)
Quote from: Wastrel on July 05, 2013, 10:04:33 PM
I'm not talking about NPCs lol.
Other people in this thread have said they have had the same experience as me. Anyway. Basically all I'm trying to say is if you are going to kill someone at least give them a fair shake as far as roleplay is concerned and dont be too powergameyish.
I've read a lot of this thread (not all, I admit), and wanted to find just the right comment for my reply. This one is it. I both wholeheartedly agree and disagree with this one.
Sometime in the last 12 or so rl months, I had the "walk-in, no-emote-attack, die" thing happen. I've also (longer ago) had some good murders and semi-natural deaths. The former suck, the latter add some context to the death of something that was important to me. But I have no complaints either way.
A while ago I found a thread by accident (and know that if I don't link it, someone out there will search and find it (Thanks! But it may not even have been on the GDB)). The important point was that "you play a million other video games and you're always the hero. In Zalanthas, you're not. You're nothing. Expect to die, to die quickly and to die horribly. Did I mention that you will die often? So...die, quickly, horribly, often. Oh! And pointlessly." And so on.
Please know, no flaming anyone, no anger. Just a quote (fine, it's a very weak paraphrase, I get it. Thanks again for finding that link!) that helped me gain some perspective.
If my reply seemed terse ... consider the tone of the posts I was replying to.
I thought my speech rather mild in comparison. I wasn't even dropping f-bombs. ::)
If you are somewhere you should not be the attacks are not random. If you are somewhere you can be killed, someone might be waiting there to kill you. Maybe they are collecting teeth for a necklace, heads for a shrine or they (the character) believe murder is required to open a portal to another dimension. They don't know how strong your character is. Maybe they think you are someone else because there are a lot of similar sdescs.
I don't agree that random killing is bad..not if its in character to randomly kill. Emotes are nice, but if the sniper emotes would you know it?
Tell man (looking down for a moment) Nice shoes;Kill man
Think He has some nice shoes. Kill man
Or simply Kill man
Tell friend (chuckling) Some scrub was on our terf today and I put a blade in his neck.
If that character has motives to randomly kill then it is only random to the victim and in the sense that it was not premeditated who or when.
Are you getting attacked in the city, In your clan hall, or in the tablelands?
I too would like a scene with my death and I have had some really good ones and I have had deaths where I get shot with arrows and die for no reason to me at least. I had a death that seemed like bullshit to me, but there was a great scene. I created the scene and ended up dead from it. I didn't break character and I pissed off another character enough to kill me right then and there in a spot there is no way they would walk away from it if they attacked and killed me. I thought that attack was more out of character than alot of the arrow shooting no rp.
The archers certainly had a reason to kill me whether I agree with that reason or not is irrelevant.
I have characters that will kill in a heartbeat and characters that would give you his last sid. Characters that are loyal and characters that will stab you as soon as the chance comes along. I play the character and do what I think the character would do. If that is kill you for no reason you can discern than that is what will happen.
if you aren't supposed to kill players why do they have money on their bodies when they die
#sageasfuck :D
More seriously though, sure no one wants a hack and slash mud, but the game's tag line does include the word murder. It happens. A lot. Embrace it.
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 06, 2013, 07:50:17 AM
if you aren't supposed to kill players why do they have money on their bodies when they die
I about spit pop all over my screen. Great answer.
I just want to jump in with a practical suggestion. If your character is killed by another PC, especially if you take issue with it, send in a report to your clan (or unclanned) staff, and just lay out the facts as you know them. You may not (and probably don't) know the full story, but you can at least report what you know. Then at least you know someone else is looking at the same set of facts (and more). Hopefully the other PC will also have (or should have) reported on what happened from their side of it too.
In every situation save for mass rpts , if I intend to kill a pc, I email. If it came up quicker.than a general report would allow, I email after. Most of the time Ill try NOT to kill, but eh, happens. Sometimes theres time for an emote, sometimes not, usually some tyloed-as-fuck half-emote because I get the pk shakes no matter the situation. An email to clan staff explaining the why is about the only thing I think another.pc is entitled to. (And yku the victim dont get to read those.) That being said,.I wish.I could emote everything for you, but most of the time Im typing out an emote the other player is spamming their code, so meh.
The thing is, getting burned by trying to kill a PC, emoting, trying to give a good scene, and then having the other PC code-bug out on you (and waying their friends, getting your PC ganked) is something most people don't like. St
The only times I've ever seen PCs attack for no reason, was when they were newbies showing up out of the Hall of Kings, and autoattacking whatever was in the spawn room. Three times, that was me. And because my characters were fairly well-skilled, and wearing armor, and in that spawn room, which was a crim-code room, and because the other PC initiated the attack all three times, then all three times, each of those PCs were dead before I swung my fist a second time. My character + soldiers = dead newbie.
Every other time my PC has been killed by another PC, there was a reason for it. There wasn't always RP that i was able to observe, as a player. One time my PC was whooshed somewhere magically and fell to near-death, and the final moments were whoever was there, having some kind of conversation with each other that I couldn't hear because I was unconscious. I was able to see a single emote: Someone lifts something up. I'm assuming it was their weapon, because I saw the mantis head immediately after that.
To Wastrel and whoever else has a problem with PKs without a visible scene - it's very possible that there IS a scene going on. It's possible that your attacker had been stalking you for a couple of leagues, and had been hemoting his heart out, and you simply lacked the perception skill to see it.
It is possible that you were attacked for no good reason, with no emotes, by a PC and not an NPC. So rather than venting your anger here on the GDB, where you clearly will not get much sympathy from those of us who consider being victim of pointless PK a rite of passage and not vent-worthy - you need to submit a player complaint to the staff. PK "for no reason" is not looked kindly upon by staff or by players. That is why it is RARE. And if it's a brand-new noob just out of chargen, it's even rarer, that he'd be able to hurt your character anyway.
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 06, 2013, 07:50:17 AM
if you aren't supposed to kill players why do they have money on their bodies when they die
LMAO
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 06, 2013, 07:50:17 AM
if you aren't supposed to kill players why do they have money on their bodies when they die
Bam. Signature.
Quote from: Bogre on July 06, 2013, 02:41:57 PM
The thing is, getting burned by trying to kill a PC, emoting, trying to give a good scene, and then having the other PC code-bug out on you (and waying their friends, getting your PC ganked) is something most people don't like. St
Yup. It's the price we pay for permadeath.
But they'd best be putting in character reports and PK reports. This isn't Zalanthan Gladiator, and we assume that characters have reason to fight. Best enumerate them to yourself, and to staff.
I've been random-encountered by players like twice: once in the city, once in the country.
I don't condone it, but it does keep things exciting.
So many wiffs in this thread, from what I've read, and in my opinion. I've got some psychology in my background and job, so here's my take.
Human are social creatures, not because we chose to be, but because attempting to survive on your own means you don't survive. (there are no lone wolves, lions kicked out of the pack die quickly, and hell, just go watch an Animal Planet survivor show) And so, most humans (except those who are deviant and NOT normal) would not casually murder another human. Its how we evolved as a species to overcome individually superior species. Now, there's exceptions to this.
Because we're social, we identify with those in our 'group' and are wary of those outside of the 'group.' Zalanthas is even worse than earth, in that resources are even more precious. And so, typically speaking, these ideas should factor into human behavior. Resources are harder to acquire, thus, killing someone capable of getting resources is flat out wastrel. And being wastrel in a scarce life is a way to end that life prematurely. However, those who threaten your ability to control and gather resources *are* worthy of elimination.
So, even a raider is foolish to simply kill. Take and let them go, and you've given yourself an opportunity to gather more later. Elves don't assassinate everything that moves to steal because a living and flourishing target (just enough, mind you) can do the work for them to steal again.
And so on, and so forth. Killing is a waste, unless it meets certain criteria, so be it NPC or PC, thinking along these lines I believe gives you a more proper immersion into the world. Note I say human a lot. That is just the human take, though I've alluded to ideas on elves too.
Other species would/will behave differently. But an elf is after easy gains, dwarfs don't go murdering unless it furthers their focus, and half-giants emulate. Part of what makes Muls so exotic and dangerous IS the fact that they can snap and end you, and much more likely to do so than most other species aside from voracious predators.
Kill? Only if its necessary to further personal survival. Otherwise, its easier to take and let live, much like the article on ecological awareness talks about on the web site.
And finally, this is just my opinion.
Some very odd answers here, maybe my characters are just too much in the moment, but if it makes sense to kill somebody, npc, or pc, I do.
If it doesn't make sense. I don't.
If I'm with so and so the head of my enemy clan, and joe newbie walks in, he dies.
if joe npc walks in, he dies. I emote if I think I should.
I'm a bit confused by much of what I'm hearing. At what point and time do you think, I have a few spare weeks and want so-and-so dead, I'll email an imm with my target.
I cant even imagine that situation happening.
Most of my kills are definitely on the "damn that escalated quickly" end of things though.
I say kills and pkills, because I treat pc's the same way I treat npcs.
As a noob I made a character who, "Was going to sacrifice pcs because they were special" I was informed, I think by nessalin that that was dumb. I then showed up in one of the worst backgrounds ever threads "A the pride in my eyes that moment." He explained that people of zalanthas are people. Not npcs and pcs. Do people really separate them?
Hell vnpcs are people. Just easier for you as a person, (and occasionally as a character) to order around and control.
Quote from: Kryos on July 09, 2013, 05:17:04 PM
So many wiffs in this thread, from what I've read, and in my opinion. I've got some psychology in my background and job, so here's my take.
Human are social creatures, not because we chose to be, but because attempting to survive on your own means you don't survive. (there are no lone wolves, lions kicked out of the pack die quickly, and hell, just go watch an Animal Planet survivor show) And so, most humans (except those who are deviant and NOT normal) would not casually murder another human. Its how we evolved as a species to overcome individually superior species. Now, there's exceptions to this.
Because we're social, we identify with those in our 'group' and are wary of those outside of the 'group.' Zalanthas is even worse than earth, in that resources are even more precious. And so, typically speaking, these ideas should factor into human behavior. Resources are harder to acquire, thus, killing someone capable of getting resources is flat out wastrel. And being wastrel in a scarce life is a way to end that life prematurely. However, those who threaten your ability to control and gather resources *are* worthy of elimination.
So, even a raider is foolish to simply kill. Take and let them go, and you've given yourself an opportunity to gather more later. Elves don't assassinate everything that moves to steal because a living and flourishing target (just enough, mind you) can do the work for them to steal again.
And so on, and so forth. Killing is a waste, unless it meets certain criteria, so be it NPC or PC, thinking along these lines I believe gives you a more proper immersion into the world. Note I say human a lot. That is just the human take, though I've alluded to ideas on elves too.
Other species would/will behave differently. But an elf is after easy gains, dwarfs don't go murdering unless it furthers their focus, and half-giants emulate. Part of what makes Muls so exotic and dangerous IS the fact that they can snap and end you, and much more likely to do so than most other species aside from voracious predators.
Kill? Only if its necessary to further personal survival. Otherwise, its easier to take and let live, much like the article on ecological awareness talks about on the web site.
And finally, this is just my opinion.
I don't have more than a college level of psychology in my background, but I seem to recall there being an "effect" coined in psychology wherein human beings, while trying to act in their own self interest short term ... will collapse a natural resource in the long term thus acting against their own self interest in the greater scope of time.
It's one of the leading arguments for the need to regulate emissions and environmental standards at a governmental level ... because the dudes farming on the ground will burn their whole world down around them in short sighted idiocy without someone looking at the long game.
I forget the name for the effect, but it seems like your analysis doesn't factor that in, when asserting that raiders ought not kill folks, for example. Sure they should not ... but ... it's perfectly normal for humans to peruse short term benefit in such a way that it causes long term self harm.
Quote from: Wastrel on May 30, 2013, 08:24:16 PM
People keep saying they have ordered hits, it would be interesting to hear from a player who has actually played a hitman (yes I've read that assassin's primer) and who has actually killed a bunch of PCs, if they were brave enough to come forward. Such a player's perspective on an OOC level would be worth hearing. Because in the world of gaming the kind of multiplayer permadeath that is featured in arm is really a novelty and basically unheard of. It really is a unique exerience.
-raises hand- I am a killer. Not just in this game, but in many games. Games give us the opportunity to explore relationships and interactions with others that are strictly unacceptable IRL, morally speaking. Lots of people have commented on this on both sides of the equation. I am of the opinion that having those who are willing to kill others add to the roleplay environment. In fact, the freedom of Armageddon to kill people (or torture, or anything else you get consent to) is the major draw of this game for me. It is what keeps me coming back after all these years. Both killing and being killed are valuable experiences. That is not to say that I have never felt guilty after killing someone (almost always, except when they -deserved it- or stepped far out of line of what is reasonable for a player/character to do) and it's not to say that I never felt awful when I lost that character I had worked so hard on. However, it's almost always a learning experience for both parties... if they choose to accept it at as such. Do I beat myself up over killing someone? Perhaps, briefly, and then I am likely to change my MO if I believe that I made a mis-step. But if it was their mis-step... well, I don't feel bad long. In summary, killing people adds a -lot- to this game. Permdeath exists for a reason. If flowers bloomed forever, they wouldn't be half as beautiful. Do not go into that dark alleyway... or that distant wasteland, without accepting in your mind that death is a possibility, and you will not be half as disappointed.
Quote from: Necro on July 16, 2013, 02:27:45 AM
Quote from: Wastrel on May 30, 2013, 08:24:16 PM
People keep saying they have ordered hits, it would be interesting to hear from a player who has actually played a hitman (yes I've read that assassin's primer) and who has actually killed a bunch of PCs, if they were brave enough to come forward. Such a player's perspective on an OOC level would be worth hearing. Because in the world of gaming the kind of multiplayer permadeath that is featured in arm is really a novelty and basically unheard of. It really is a unique exerience.
-raises hand- I am a killer. Not just in this game, but in many games. Games give us the opportunity to explore relationships and interactions with others that are strictly unacceptable IRL, morally speaking. Lots of people have commented on this on both sides of the equation. I am of the opinion that having those who are willing to kill others add to the roleplay environment. In fact, the freedom of Armageddon to kill people (or torture, or anything else you get consent to) is the major draw of this game for me. It is what keeps me coming back after all these years. Both killing and being killed are valuable experiences. That is not to say that I have never felt guilty after killing someone (almost always, except when they -deserved it- or stepped far out of line of what is reasonable for a player/character to do) and it's not to say that I never felt awful when I lost that character I had worked so hard on. However, it's almost always a learning experience for both parties... if they choose to accept it at as such. Do I beat myself up over killing someone? Perhaps, briefly, and then I am likely to change my MO if I believe that I made a mis-step. But if it was their mis-step... well, I don't feel bad long. In summary, killing people adds a -lot- to this game. Permdeath exists for a reason. If flowers bloomed forever, they wouldn't be half as beautiful. Do not go into that dark alleyway... or that distant wasteland, without accepting in your mind that death is a possibility, and you will not be half as disappointed.
Excellent post. Huzzah for permadeath!
Haven't played for a long time now (just check the forums every couple of months) but I think being killed with some decent RP leading up to it is great. Even a backstab won't piss me off too much if it's done in good taste with at least an emote right before I die or preferably a psy to give some sort of closure.
But last time I played I experienced an incredibly lame death and yeah, it's the brutal nature of the game, but it was enough to drive me away because it isn't worth putting in the time and effort to get plots etc going when you are killed for no decent reason in a matter of seconds with no RP whatsoever. I don't think that is particularly fun for anyone, except the players who seem to get a kick out of it ::)
But yeah, I'm all for being killed if it's fun.
As it is, someone PM me if Red Fang re-open. I probably won't be back IG until then.
Red fang will never be open again the tribe has been wiped clean off the face of zalanthas
Quote from: musashi on July 12, 2013, 07:31:29 PM
Quote from: Kryos on July 09, 2013, 05:17:04 PM
So many wiffs in this thread, from what I've read, and in my opinion. I've got some psychology in my background and job, so here's my take.
Human are social creatures, not because we chose to be, but because attempting to survive on your own means you don't survive. (there are no lone wolves, lions kicked out of the pack die quickly, and hell, just go watch an Animal Planet survivor show) And so, most humans (except those who are deviant and NOT normal) would not casually murder another human. Its how we evolved as a species to overcome individually superior species. Now, there's exceptions to this.
Because we're social, we identify with those in our 'group' and are wary of those outside of the 'group.' Zalanthas is even worse than earth, in that resources are even more precious. And so, typically speaking, these ideas should factor into human behavior. Resources are harder to acquire, thus, killing someone capable of getting resources is flat out wastrel. And being wastrel in a scarce life is a way to end that life prematurely. However, those who threaten your ability to control and gather resources *are* worthy of elimination.
So, even a raider is foolish to simply kill. Take and let them go, and you've given yourself an opportunity to gather more later. Elves don't assassinate everything that moves to steal because a living and flourishing target (just enough, mind you) can do the work for them to steal again.
And so on, and so forth. Killing is a waste, unless it meets certain criteria, so be it NPC or PC, thinking along these lines I believe gives you a more proper immersion into the world. Note I say human a lot. That is just the human take, though I've alluded to ideas on elves too.
Other species would/will behave differently. But an elf is after easy gains, dwarfs don't go murdering unless it furthers their focus, and half-giants emulate. Part of what makes Muls so exotic and dangerous IS the fact that they can snap and end you, and much more likely to do so than most other species aside from voracious predators.
Kill? Only if its necessary to further personal survival. Otherwise, its easier to take and let live, much like the article on ecological awareness talks about on the web site.
And finally, this is just my opinion.
I don't have more than a college level of psychology in my background, but I seem to recall there being an "effect" coined in psychology wherein human beings, while trying to act in their own self interest short term ... will collapse a natural resource in the long term thus acting against their own self interest in the greater scope of time.
It's one of the leading arguments for the need to regulate emissions and environmental standards at a governmental level ... because the dudes farming on the ground will burn their whole world down around them in short sighted idiocy without someone looking at the long game.
I forget the name for the effect, but it seems like your analysis doesn't factor that in, when asserting that raiders ought not kill folks, for example. Sure they should not ... but ... it's perfectly normal for humans to peruse short term benefit in such a way that it causes long term self harm.
Hurp durp, I didn't come back to this thread to look at it. Sorry about that.
But the reason I didn't go down that avenue is due to the documentation about the sensitivity Zalanthans have to keeping sustainable resources sustained, and that, specifically, they don't go ape shit for immediate personal gain if its going to bend them over down the road (hunter docs/thief bible). In fact, the people who do that [find out ic but I'm guessing you'd know what I'd mean Musashi] are hated. HATED. I expanded on that thought process, admittedly put a touch of my own mojo in the mix and . . .
On a side note, to elaborate a touch. PC murder in a perma death gaming experience is an essential part of the mix. I do believe, however, that if you want to create better stories, you do it by trying to be as authentic as possible. And in this case, I believe that means that murder should not be the first option every time.
As mentioned, though, if your ability to secure or control resources is threatened by some one or something, I doubt a Zalanthan would hesitate at all if they knew they could remove that obstacle.
Certain tribes and certain races are big on environmental sustainability (mantis, for example). But I've never gathered from the docs that its a universal practice.
Yeah I've always been under the impression (possibly wrongly) that Allanak was in the business of plowing the commons. That they don't really care and take what they want. If they run out they will take from somewhere else.
It also seems like alot of the tribals are very interested in sustainable practices in regards to hunting and nature in general.
Tuluk kinda seems in the middle. A cross between sustainable and gotta feed the people.
Most everyone is against defiling or sorcery in general. Alot of the reason is probably because Tek and Muk don't want another sorcerer to gain prowess. Its easier to make sure they die early.
Quote from: spacewars on July 18, 2013, 05:26:40 AM
Red fang will never be open again the tribe has been wiped clean off the face of zalanthas
When did that happen? I was the last Red Fang PC alive when they closed a few years ago. I assure you back then the whole tribe wasn't wiped out, just a part of it.
Could somebody clarify whether the whole tribe has since been wiped out?
From this history page:
-
c.1607 (Year 67 Age 21)
Over the period of a year, the Red Fangs clash with the Sun Runners. Vicious war begins between the two elven tribes. After bloody battles ranging from the steppes of the Tablelands to the sands of the Red Desert, the Red Fangs have been destroyed.
-
Destroyed being the operative word.
Red Fang truthers unite!
Quote from: Nile on July 22, 2013, 05:20:28 AM
Could somebody clarify whether the whole tribe has since been wiped out?
It was done over the course of a few RPTs and was led by the actions of PCs on both sides. This occurred approximately two years ago. The clan wasn't closed, it was wiped out. You were there, actually. I suppose that depending on when you died in the larger local RPT in question, you might have thought things were going to turn around, but...nope. Dead Fangs.
Anyway, I guess since I helped that occur, you can say that I feel perfectly fine with PC killing--and all-out war.
Quote from: Nyr on July 22, 2013, 09:05:51 AM
Quote from: Nile on July 22, 2013, 05:20:28 AM
Could somebody clarify whether the whole tribe has since been wiped out?
It was done over the course of a few RPTs and was led by the actions of PCs on both sides. This occurred approximately two years ago. The clan wasn't closed, it was wiped out. You were there, actually. I suppose that depending on when you died in the larger local RPT in question, you might have thought things were going to turn around, but...nope. Dead Fangs.
Anyway, I guess since I helped that occur, you can say that I feel perfectly fine with PC killing--and all-out war.
God damn. I survived the larger slaughter and lead the remains of the tribe (NPC's) on a suicide run a few days later but I thought we were only a sect of the tribe and some lived on back in the canyons or something.
I'm devastated they are all dead. In my opinion Red Fang was hands down the best tribe in all of arm and I was awaiting their reopening to make my return to the game :(
Red Fangs: extinct because of a census error.
Quote from: Nile on July 22, 2013, 06:06:40 PM
Quote from: Nyr on July 22, 2013, 09:05:51 AM
Quote from: Nile on July 22, 2013, 05:20:28 AM
Could somebody clarify whether the whole tribe has since been wiped out?
It was done over the course of a few RPTs and was led by the actions of PCs on both sides. This occurred approximately two years ago. The clan wasn't closed, it was wiped out. You were there, actually. I suppose that depending on when you died in the larger local RPT in question, you might have thought things were going to turn around, but...nope. Dead Fangs.
Anyway, I guess since I helped that occur, you can say that I feel perfectly fine with PC killing--and all-out war.
God damn. I survived the larger slaughter and lead the remains of the tribe (NPC's) on a suicide run a few days later but I thought we were only a sect of the tribe and some lived on back in the canyons or something.
I'm devastated they are all dead. In my opinion Red Fang was hands down the best tribe in all of arm and I was awaiting their reopening to make my return to the game :(
How does it feel to kill the thing you loved the most? ;)
In all seriousness, that must hurt. Condolences. :-*
Haha yeah it sucks big time. I was there when they didn't even have a coded camp and we were just a few scabby elves hiding in the canyons getting beaten up by the Soh and everyone else to the time when we were some of the most feared raiders in the known world with a bad ass coded camp and a far more fleshed out culture.
Oh well. I might eventually go back to the 'rinth. Really the only other place I get the grit I'm looking for.
EDIT: While on the topic of RF, I just want to give a huge shout out to the imms and players that were around at that time. You guys are awesome.
Armageddon has murder in many vintages, like a well stocked wine cellar.
It can happen to the tune of smiles and poisoned wine. Daggers in the dark. Brutal slaughter. There's something for the monster in all of us!
Uh, I prefer my newb medium rare.
I've killed a few players in my time.
I (almost) always felt bad afterwards, but it was always appropriate for me to have killed them. I tried to give them good death scenes, and mostly succeeded, but sometimes it wasn't always possible. I've been killed without good scenes myself - that's just life.
Doesn't matter, I'd do it again.
ESPECIALLY YOU, ANNOYING SILK MERCHANT ON THE NORTH ROAD. YEAH, I'D KILL YOU TEN TIMES.
lol
I'm new enough to the game that opportunities for PK are fairly rare, but I've made a stab at it, and I've participated in executions. One thing I'd worry about, but hate to see, is the instant devolving from an intense scene to code when you kill someone. If someone runs the moment you enter the room without emoting, then by the time YOU have emoted, they've unlocked the door to their apartment, ran down the hall and entered a nearby tavern before you even finish emoting jumping at them. I feel like yakety sax should be playing as I chase you around your apartment. I'm fine with running, but emote or something. I won't take advantage of you taking the time to emote if you pay me the courtesy. Its a more interesting scene for everyone involved.
Quote from: LauraMars on July 23, 2013, 11:56:04 AM
ESPECIALLY YOU, ANNOYING SILK MERCHANT ON THE NORTH ROAD. YEAH, I'D KILL YOU TEN TIMES.
You mean there are non-annoying merchants?
Quote from: Tuannon on July 25, 2013, 07:40:51 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on July 23, 2013, 11:56:04 AM
ESPECIALLY YOU, ANNOYING SILK MERCHANT ON THE NORTH ROAD. YEAH, I'D KILL YOU TEN TIMES.
You mean there are non-annoying merchants?
Negative. Such things do not exist in Zalanthas. A non-annoying merchant would tear apart the thread of the world. Then I'd have to PK more to take advantage. *nod*
I think it depends for me. The role I'm playing wouldn't probably kill a fly. My previous role would have killed if ordered too without batting an eye. In the long run if its either me or them. I usually prefer them. Might sound cold but in a world like ZT being too nice can earn you a blade in the back for your troubles...
Quote from: IssacF on August 01, 2013, 08:20:16 PM
Might sound cold but in a world like ZT being too nice can earn you a blade in the back for your troubles...
Exactly this. One of my previous characters found someone dying in the wastes, and saved their life. After being thanked and a quick chat, my character turned to hop back on his mount. The guy I had just saved backstabbed me, and BEEP. I was Dead.
I felt like sending the guy Kudos, but I didn't remember his sdesc.
Quote from: BleakOne on August 01, 2013, 09:27:41 PM
Quote from: IssacF on August 01, 2013, 08:20:16 PM
Might sound cold but in a world like ZT being too nice can earn you a blade in the back for your troubles...
Exactly this. One of my previous characters found someone dying in the wastes, and saved their life. After being thanked and a quick chat, my character turned to hop back on his mount. The guy I had just saved backstabbed me, and BEEP. I was Dead.
I felt like sending the guy Kudos, but I didn't remember his sdesc.
In all honesty if I am playing a combat role and I see someone in that position... Sorry to say I will probably kill them and end their misery. That reason you just posted is exactly why. I might not enjoy it, but I won't regret it. Simply put none of my characters are trusting. All of them can be trusted but none will trust even their mate. Harsh and cold? Probably.
I usually won't in that situation.
Same here, I usually repay kindness with kindness since it makes more sense in the long run. Nonetheless it was just so... fitting. To be a nice guy and pay for it with a knife in the back.
Quote from: BleakOne on August 01, 2013, 11:39:22 PM
Same here, I usually repay kindness with kindness since it makes more sense in the long run. Nonetheless it was just so... fitting. To be a nice guy and pay for it with a knife in the back.
Yes that I do. If someone is kind and helps me I tend to have a higher degree of respect for them and tend to repay kindness with kindness. But a total stranger... How do I know s/he won't kill me -after- I save them?
Quote from: IssacF on August 01, 2013, 11:46:41 PM
Quote from: BleakOne on August 01, 2013, 11:39:22 PM
Same here, I usually repay kindness with kindness since it makes more sense in the long run. Nonetheless it was just so... fitting. To be a nice guy and pay for it with a knife in the back.
Yes that I do. If someone is kind and helps me I tend to have a higher degree of respect for them and tend to repay kindness with kindness. But a total stranger... How do I know s/he won't kill me -after- I save them?
By being so completely badass that it won't matter if they try.
Quote from: Bogre on August 02, 2013, 03:44:37 PM
Quote from: IssacF on August 01, 2013, 11:46:41 PM
Quote from: BleakOne on August 01, 2013, 11:39:22 PM
Same here, I usually repay kindness with kindness since it makes more sense in the long run. Nonetheless it was just so... fitting. To be a nice guy and pay for it with a knife in the back.
Yes that I do. If someone is kind and helps me I tend to have a higher degree of respect for them and tend to repay kindness with kindness. But a total stranger... How do I know s/he won't kill me -after- I save them?
By being so completely badass that it won't matter if they do.
LOL
I find the knowledge that I could kill, if I so choose, more entertaining than the actual killing. In return, many of my own characters get PK'ed, often in entertaining ways - karma I guess.
I don't feel bad about PK'ing anymore. Probably because one of my characters killed about twelve people, either for money, or part of his job. It kind of immunized me to the 'bad feeling' I used to get. I still will always strive to try and make it not shitty for the other person, though. Even if it's just a quick word of why it's happening, the reason behind it, before I slam the BEEPhammer home and it's mantishead time.
At least then they know why it happened, and won't just think "OMG, this dork just grief-PK'd me!"
The thing is, if you're a stranger, I don't know how much of badass you are. If you're holding a club/knife I'm probably not going to give you much time to react so I don't run the the risk of getting sapped/backstabed while I'm typing. The game would be much better if these skills were removed and assassins were compensated in other ways, imo.
Only thing I feel bad about is how when you plot and plan to kill someone. And when that time comes it ends up seemingly code fast kill and to them it maybe a complete out of the blue, which means you plan right but I know they leave thinking WTH and why, so deep done wished I could explained it. But also thinking who planning my death makes it so your on your toes and that is fun part.
I think PK's happen in every mud that allows them, and cause grief on occasion. I've been killed several times in Armageddon, but it isn't all that bad, especially if you are given a death scene. I really appreciate when people ooc requests for consent, or try in some way to make things a bit more interesting. After all, with how much time people sink into their characters, it's deserved imo.
On the other side of things, I've killed several characters as well. Some were long-winded plots that finally ended in someone dying, while others might have been spur of the moment. The ones I feel the worst about are those that I was not able to give a proper death scene to, and roleplay out the ending chapter of a character's life.
I wouldn't feel bad. Sometimes, often, death is sudden. People don't see it coming. This is true in Armageddon and real life.
A lot of roleplay goes into Armageddon deaths. Usually it's before and after the death. If you plan to kill your enemy you aren't obligated to give them a Bond Villain explanation for their demise.
If you find yourself on the receiving end of a murder that you think is twinky or random or OOC, please do send in a complaint. We'll look into the death and if it was one of the very rare instances of poor play it will be dealt with. The vast majority of these abrupt deaths are legitimate though and contribute to many storylines.
Quote from: Wug on August 25, 2013, 07:17:50 PM
If you plan to kill your enemy you aren't obligated to give them a Bond Villain explanation for their demise.
I love this, so, sooooooooo much.
I've learned that as long as there is that veneer of roleplay people will pull out all the stops and abuse (or use?) the code to its full potential to stay alive/kill X as far as PK is concerned. I will be bringing this approach in future PCs, if they are involved in PK. I will be using every dirty trick in the book. I will show no mercy to players. I will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.
;)
I recall a story long ago of a player who was being chased by desert elves. He cast a spell [edited by Wug - do not post spell specifics].They ran.
If a player is being metagamey report them. Don't do it yourself.
If it ever rains. Start freaking out.
You can always just claim you were roleplaying in a way that will seem defensible. They ran because they were scared! Thats what people do. Mental gymnastics.
And thats not how the game actually works I've learned, janeshepard. I used to be idealistic. I'm not going to risk losing characters because I'm a hopeless idealist who hopes everyone will rp a deathscene or expects players to not run or be little bitches in various bitchy ways (crudely put but w/e). I know for damn sure a lot of players play like that and probably wont admit it. Vets especially. Dman summed up my current feelings somewhere in this thread. In an ideal world everyone would give everyone a chance to RP etc but thats simply not going to happen due to numerous factors. I'd rather not be a scrub. (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html)
Quote from: Wastrel on August 25, 2013, 08:28:24 PM
You can always just claim you were roleplaying in a way that will seem defensible. They ran because they were scared! Thats what people do. Mental gymnastics.
And thats not how the game actually works I've learned, janeshepard. I used to be idealistic. I'm not going to risk losing characters because I'm a hopeless idealist who hopes everyone will rp a deathscene or expects players to not run or be little bitches in various bitchy ways (crudely put but w/e). I know for damn sure a lot of players play like that and probably wont admit it. Vets especially. Dman summed up my current feelings somewhere in this thread. In an ideal world everyone would give everyone a chance to RP etc but thats simply not going to happen due to numerous factors. I'd rather not be a scrub. (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html)
I don't know. What's true depends on the day. Some day instead of a shitty death, someone will give you a great one. And you'll want to do that for someone else. Maybe they'll disappoint you. Maybe they'll be awesome and you'll want to die well for someone else. It's hard to say what's true when everything is true. Sometimes people suck. Sometimes they're brilliant. Sometimes it's all quick and dirty and everyone still goes home happy.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 25, 2013, 07:41:10 PMI will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.
Let me know how that works out for you. Your PC might survive an encounter or get another PC killed, but your account might not survive staff's encounter with it if we notice you being 'as metagamey as possible' or 'bending the code as far as you possibly can.'
PC killing? I'm a lover, not a fighter.
Quote from: Nyr on August 25, 2013, 09:56:27 PM
Quote from: Wastrel on August 25, 2013, 07:41:10 PMI will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.
Let me know how that works out for you. Your PC might survive an encounter or get another PC killed, but your account might not survive staff's encounter with it if we notice you being 'as metagamey as possible' or 'bending the code as far as you possibly can.'
Cool, I love being passively aggressively threatened by an imm on the gdb. 8)
Because players dont act in their own interest, right? That never happens? I'm not saying I'm not going to RP, but I'm first going to be thinking about what I can do to survive/kill before anything else. If coded actions back up my characters will for self-perservation better than emoting, so be it.
Quote from: TheWanderer on August 25, 2013, 10:01:01 PM
PC killing? I'm a lover, not a fighter.
This too shall pass.
Hey, if you RP right you get more karma in a review and get some of the 'other' class/race choices.
I don't think there's a punishment for reporting behavior you feel is metagamey and out of place. If I'm some giant snowball crashing down the Known I hope everyone runs away rather than try to engage me in combat. You know?
Quote from: Wastrel on August 25, 2013, 07:41:10 PM
Cool, I love being passively aggressively threatened by the imms on the gdb. 8)
Because players dont act in their own interest, right? That never happens? I'm not saying I'm not going to RP, but I'm first going to be thinking about what I can do to survive/kill before anything else. If coded actions back up my characters will for self-perservation better than emoting, so be it.
You stated you were planning to be as metagamey as possible and that you would bend the code as far as you could. I couldn't tell if you were kidding or not. Saying that we police that kind of thing is not a passive-aggressive threat--it's how we run the game. We don't want to see that here and we'll dock karma or ban people that do those kinds of things.
You should involve RP in what you are doing. If you're going to assassinate someone, you have no obligation to give them a wonderful scene, because your goal is to assassinate them. You should roleplay in advance of it and if possible, do hemotes and thinks and feels during it, but sometimes things get hectic and you have to go with "backstab dude" or "throw dude off cliff." Afterwards, you should roleplay and also report on it because it helps us (and you, too!) get into the mind of your character--because the time of imminent crisis is over (where failure could have happened), and now you have to RP to cover your tracks or move the body or whatever.
This is fine:
Dude emotes and solo rps and rps with a guy about taking out this other stump dude that neither of them like. They hate stumps.
Dude goes after the stump; he's sneaking and hiding. The stump doesn't see him.
Dude thinks about it some more, then hemotes and gets into position, waits a moment, and springs the attack.
The stump is dead, one hit kill.
Dude grabs up the corpse, rifles through the belongings the stump had, and takes them to the other guy that was all "this dude needs to be killed!"
They have drinks and chat about their next stump victim.
Now, that looks fine, but all the stump saw was a mantis head. He might put in a complaint, but all he'll get in response is "yep, everything looks fine--they roleplayed in advance, afterwards, and even during, not that you were able to see it."
(That doesn't mean the stump needs to change everything and start being metagamey and bend the code as far as possible, though!)
On the same token, this is
not fine:
Dude knows people are after him.
Dude doesn't think, feel, emote at all. He just runs like hell, spam-running his mount to a nearby quit room and quits out. He then returns a few minutes later to skedaddle away to a safer spot and quits out there knowing that he can't be touched by those people now.
That's stupid and deserves action from staff.
There's all sorts of "okay" and "not-okay" things in between those two extremes. Sometimes there's some RP but not a lot. Sometimes there's a lot more code reaction and action and not much RP stuff (but that's generally okay from time to time--for instance, when a volcano is erupting beneath your feet, and you need to fucking run away, the "running away" is the part of the roleplay you need to get a good handle on, no?). In the end, if you're spending time fleshing out your character...for the most part, you're going to react just fine when the unexpected happens.
And sometimes you'll get that mantis head and go "...uh. Shit."
I think we've all be guilty of panic mode at least once in our Arm careers, but I can't remember any deaths where there wasn't any RP involved at all. My experiences so far have been great (can you use that with perma-death?!), both on the giving and receiving end.
skedaddle. This word is sponsored by Nyr.
I still feel guilty about my last PK. I really suck at PKs I participate in personally. My adrenaline shoots high up and I'm too shaky to give them a proper scene. PKs I mastermind or perform through other's hands work much smoother though.
Edit to add: I usually weigh my options heavily before performing a PK and try my best to avoid it. "Except" when I am being hired to perform a PK. In that case, 9/10 times I relay the responsibility for caring to whoever's paying me, since I'm just an instrument. In those cases, I rarely feel guilty about the PK. Though I still feel guilty if that PK wasnt very interesting.
I've literally hated players (not characters but their players) before as my hitmen characters, because it seems every time they had a problem, they were solving it by hiring me. My characters loved them of course, a steady client, yada, yada.
How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not by employing a variety of gamey tricks? Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm. Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action. You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning. The list goes on. When I say metagamey this is what I mean.
Veterans have all read Machiavelli's The Prince, that's how they survive for so long.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 12:14:19 AM
Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm. Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action.
Hm. Those are incredibly boring options. I feel sorry for anybody who does this.
Quote
You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning.
Yeah, but wouldn't your character realistically need to consider these things before taking someone out? I mean...there's nothing "meta gamey" about trying to find out the strengths and weaknesses of your enemy or target. I'd evaluate my mailman's strengths and weaknesses tomorrow if I were a professional assassin hired to assassinate him. And in Armageddon it's totally possible (indeed, it is required) to find out this information through in character channels. As for playtimes - uhh? I don't see how planning to kill some dude when he's actually online is blatantly abusing the code.
Edit: Ohhh wait - you mean evaluate the PLAYER, through OOC channels ("I hear LauraMars never takes subguilds with the GetOutOfJailFree skill - she's toast!"). Yeah, this is why we generally don't talk about who we're playing. :P
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2013, 12:23:06 AM
Veterans have all read Machiavelli's The Prince, that's how they survive for so long.
I'VE NEVER READ IT
Laura, I never said evaluate the player through ooc channels. Thats fucked up. However, you can deduce all sorts of things about a player just by watching him or roleplaying with him for a bit. Or asking specific questions about the pc. You're stating the obvious here. As far as avoiding conflict just to avoid your PC dying, just speaking from observation. A lot of veteran players do it. Risk is not a word I think some players factor into their roleplay. And as far as killing PCs go, without being specific, there are certain skills that are just far, far, far more potent than others. Just use those ones to kill. Whatever works.
There is no code abuse here; just tenacity, forethought and a willingness to do whatever it takes to accomplish the goals you set for your pc.
Stone cold like a g.
Keeping yourself alive through logging out to avoid deadly things is kind of missing the whole point of Armageddon. I've had characters live a long-ass time, but it was through mitigating risks through in-game circumstances, not avoiding them entirely.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 12:53:37 AM
There is no code abuse here; just tenacity, forethought and a willingness to do whatever it takes to accomplish the goals you set for your pc.
Well I'm really glad Nyr took an interest in these posts of yours Wastrel :)
I'm pretty sure the guy is trolling. I wouldnt go all "get out the twink brand and get it red hot" on him just yet.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 12:14:19 AM
How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not by employing a variety of gamey tricks? Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm. Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action. You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning. The list goes on. When I say metagamey this is what I mean.
Luck. For every pc that lives a while there are a whole bunch of others that didn't last nearly long enough.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 12:14:19 AM
How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not by employing a variety of gamey tricks?
By knowing or learning who not to piss off and who to befriend, perhaps?
QuoteYour PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm.
Good luck, that will often get you a storexecution.
QuoteSome huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action.
I guess. That'd be pretty boring though. "Oh man I missed that event that everyone else was at and risked their characters at in order to participate in the story...and all I got was this lousy character that is so lame it won't participate in events that might get it killed." Said player is not a veteran, just boring.
QuoteYou wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning.
The problem with this is this part:
QuoteOk, whats the player like?
No, find out what the
character is like. What can they do? Are they friends with anyone dangerous? Are they enemies of anyone dangerous? When are they generally around--are you going to have to get someone else to do it instead of you? Take these factors into consideration and start planning. People DO that, definitely, and they should!
QuoteThe list goes on. When I say metagamey this is what I mean.
If your complaint is that some people live longer than a month, that's not metagaming--that's mostly luck, skill, and determination. If your underlying issue is that you want to find ways to live longer, the best way to do that is to make your PC invaluable to someone powerful, never piss them off, and then ditch them if they get a more powerful enemy than them. Purely by playing a social character, you can rise to power and influence.
If you've never had a PC last longer than a month, yes, maybe everyone looks like they are using "metagame tricks" to have their PCs live a long life. On the other hand, if you have children younger than the amount of RL years you've invested into your character, you might well think everyone else is playing the game wrong.
QuoteHow do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not by employing a variety of gamey tricks? Your PC wanted? Just take a break from Arm. Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action. You wanna kill someone? Ok, whats the player like? Noob? Low-skilled? High skilled? Whats are his playtimes? Take these factors into consideration and start planning. The list goes on. When I say metagamey this is what I mean.
Veterans don't. As somebody already said, There are usually many PCs that are dead between long lived PCs, even to vet players. Of course, maybe what a vet considers long lived and what you do are different things...Alright, If you consider a 10-20 day 3-6 month PC long lived, I can go with that I suppose. How to keep a PC alive...Um, act in a realistic fashion. Some parts of that go for your PCs entire life. Like #1 Templars are the law...period, You have no power compared to them, Messing with a Templar on the Templars turf is always a risk best avoided. Vet players know this and even better, Know that the PC knows it, and if they have 5 days or 105 days played, They will still bow, be polite, ready to bride, whatever...any Templar no matter how new.
#2 Sorta goes with #1 Know your PC is a pussy compared to the world...Have your PC know this. Now sure, this is something your PC might at least somewhat grow out of. But by then they are VERY old..as in RL years and even then they still understand that there are others who are still bigger and stronger.
Survival by not logging in? Nah, If you pay attention, on any major event, the really long lived PCs make a point to log in...because all of us look for that sort of death for the PC anyway. PC wanted, Heh, Bring it on!
The part about wanting to kill someone...Um, that sort of planning is realistic. And sorta hard to interact with another PC in any way if you do not know when they play. It is no more bad form to use that knowledge when planning to kill then it is for a promotion or mudsex....kinda required in fact.
Like...you keep picking apart my examples, but you're just missing the point. I've been being a scrub. I've constructed this false set of rules for myself on how to act within armageddon. Those rules are simply wrong. As long as I act within the confines of the game and my character, whats the problem?
Of course you can have long-lived PCs by not pissing people off. Like... derr. To say that veteran players dont do the things I described is just delusional. I cant tell you how many times I've seen veteran PCs simply be evasive to the point of ridiculousness. This goes for all types of roleplay. You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs. I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 11:36:27 AMYou all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs.
That's not what you said, though. You said:
Quote from: Wastrel on August 25, 2013, 07:41:10 PMI will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.
That's what we take issue with.
QuoteI'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.
No, it's not, unless you have a weird definition that includes things like "don't piss off templars" as an OOC decision.
Eh, I never said you were evil/bad whatever.
And of course you will see an entire range of action/play...But your post said "How do veterans keep their PCs alive for so long if not for" So, since there is no disclaimer or anything to point otherwise, you are making the claim that ALL vets use such tactics, And I and others will jump on that because it is patently wrong. You also use the term veteran player and Veteran PC interchangeably, this is also wrong, There have been and likely are many total newb players who have or have had long lived first PCs, and though this does make the PC sort of a vet I suppose, the player is not.
Another point that myself and others do not agree on is your belief that many IC things are OOC decisions. Deciding to not go after that PC/NPC/MOB because it will kill your PC is not OOC, it is IC....hell the docs even state, People in Zalanthas don't want to die.
Making blanket statements about how people play will get your posts jumped on...believe that.
QuoteI will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.
That's what we take issue with.
As long as I'm not breaking any rules and still roleplaying there shouldn't be an issue. I'm a good roleplayer. I'm not a "keep your head down" kind of guy. Thats silly and boring to me. As Nyr has already tactfully revealed in a subtle-yet obvious manner, none of my PCs usually last longer than a month. This is the reason. However, those PCs are usually pretty quality I think and contribute alot to the game.
So here are my thoughts on PK. I will show you zero mercy if my PC wants to kill you. I will do it in the most efficient way possible if I can. If you kill my PC, one of three things happened a) you outsmarted me as a player b) i let you kill me c) I goofed. Simple as that. Call it metagaming, call it code bending, whatever. Semantics.
People do what I'm talking about and you can tell me all day you dont, I know its bullshit. I've talked with players who've played the game for 10+ years, killed hundreds of PCs, and generally know the game better than anyone. I know how they think. I know how they operate. They're fucken lizards. There are of course exceptions to everything, but I'm not talking about those. Ok? Ok.
Quote from: Desertman on June 21, 2013, 11:12:41 AM
The main draw to this game is the fact that death is final.
Without perma-death, we are just another RP MUD. In fact, I would go so far as to say without perma-death, a ton of the roleplay we have would be less rich, and a lot of it would even be impossible.
That being said, the end game for Armageddon is PK for the vast majority of players. Why? Because that is the final and most absolute form of power and control. So long as your PC is alive, you are winning Armageddon. There is only one way to lose, and that is to not be alive anymore.
The only thing that matters in this game is the ability to take life. If you can take life better than the next guy, he is at your mercy, and you are winning, and he is losing. You don't necessarily have to kill him, he just has to know and accept the fact that you can and he can't stop you.
If you get powerful enough that you have enough people beneath you in the "I can kill you." pool, you can in theory win Armageddon.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 12:11:49 PM
QuoteI will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.
That's what we take issue with.
As long as I'm not breaking any rules and still roleplaying there shouldn't be an issue.
Being metagamey as possible and bending the code as far as you can ARE against the rules.
QuoteSo here are my thoughts on PK. I will show you zero mercy if my PC wants to kill you. I will do it in the most efficient way possible if I can. If you kill my PC, one of three things happened a) you outsmarted me as a player b) i let you kill me c) I goofed. Simple as that. Call it metagaming, call it code bending, whatever. Semantics.
No one is saying you have to show mercy. Also, YOU'RE the one who said "metagaming" and "code bending", and you leveled that accusation at every veteran player in the game.
QuotePeople already do this and you can tell me all day you dont, I know its bullshit. I've talked with players who've played the game for 10+ years, killed hundreds of PCs, and generally know the game better than anyone.
You're talking to another 10 year veteran right now and I'm saying otherwise.
QuoteI know how they think. I know how they operate. They're fucken lizards. There are of course exceptions to everything, but I'm not talking about those. Ok? Ok.
So... reverse No True Scotsman? "Every veteran player in the game is a metagaming bastard... except the ones who aren't!" ::)
What exactly are you trying to do with this line of discussion anyway? Piss people off? Or simply trying to justify your future crappy play?
I think I am probably a scrub. I think I'm also having a better time than you. (Based on your posts.). You're allowed to feel frustrated But it really is more fun when winning is taken out of the equation. Also whether you play 1 pc this year or 50. You get paid exactly the same.
FYI I have played this game for 12 years on and off.
I do -not- avoid being killed. Most of my PCs end up pkilled. Most of the players I know in real life or through IMs that are veterans covet a good death. A bad death is always annoying, no matter how long you've been playing. We should all avoid bad deaths.
I think that anyone that -would- do any of the above things are fucked up, it makes me wanna pkill them for ooc reasons. I'll refrain anyway.
The posts 'feel' accusatory and don't really answer the thread. Wastrel's opinions make me think they should be in a thread called something else.
You definitely have a lot more fun in Armageddon when you stop thinking it's a game you can win.
Nobody wins Armageddon. Each new character is the story of how they died.
Quote from: LauraMars on August 26, 2013, 01:26:09 PM
Nobody wins Armageddon. Each new character is the story of how they died.
+1
QuoteBeing metagamey as possible and bending the code as far as you can ARE against the rules.
What rules, exactly? http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules Show me where it says I cant be metagamey or use the code to my advantage. ??? Where was that ??? Or are these apart of Nyr's shady, whimsical rules we're supposed to know by reading the forums and old threads? It seems we have different definitions of metagaming. Straight from wikipedia: In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions. Thats my definition. Your seems to be loaded with a bunch of nastiness like reacting improperly to a psion, playing with cliques, twinking, etc...Metagaming isn't a bad word in my vocabulary. It simply means playing smarter and having a greater appreciation for the current rules and standards of the game.
I'm just defending myself. You're basically sitting here telling me you're paragons of purist roleplay who've never played a PC selfishly. That you've never conveniently missed out on on a event that would probably lead to your death. ....Anyone who'd do that...what a boring MONSTER they are!!!.... That you never gracefully tiptoed out of the room when a Templar entered. That you never go outside the city or deviate from a certain pattern of play because that would be dangerous. That you never do X because you know it will probably lead to your death. That you never made way more sid than you should have. ETC. BECAUSE YOU'VE NEVER DONE ANY OF THIS RIGHT? You're all perfect little saints and I'm the big bad man for saying I want to metagame within reason and use the code to my advantage. Because apparently its okay older players to have a working knowledge of the code and act accordingly while younger players waste hours and HOURS of time because they are playing under false assumptions.
Get. Real.
I cannot speak for Moe, but I can make that claim.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 01:30:48 PM
Lotsa shit and then:
Get. Real.
Alright hero... take a deep breath.
Players are human, players make mistakes, players grow from gamers to roleplayers. You'll be no different. Ten years from now you'll be reading some noob saying "Why am I an asshole/twink/derp/whateverlingoiscurrent for admitting I'll do this shit?!?" and you'll think to yourself:
"You just don't get it.... yet... but you will... Or you'll end up one of the few ex-players."
It's looked down upon, yes, just like sharing coded syntax for complicated shit you are encouraged to learn in game is frowned upon. The point is we're encouraging you NOT to do any of that shit because when you look back you'll be able to see all the wasted lessons and opportunities you fucked yourself out of.
Don't fuck yourself. Fuck others. That's what Arm is about.
Exactly, they're human.
Oh excuse me, Barzalene is not.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 01:38:31 PM
Exactly, they're human.
Oh excuse me, Barzalene is not.
Oh well. Still I'm not all bad.
Man, where's a link to that Michael Jackson eating Popcorn gif when you need one.
You're good at that.
The goddamn plane has crashed into the mountain.
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/2ad742932e832110666be0786986d006/tumblr_mok4u8Xd4k1sppmago1_500.gif)
No worries BadSkeelz, I gotcha.
You're changing it up, Wastrel. You said:
Quote from: Wastrel on August 25, 2013, 07:41:10 PMI will be as metagamey as possible. I will bend the code as far as I possibly can.
Of course people use some knowledge gained from previous characters' experience, and of course people use "code" for advantage. The problem is when you claim that vets are all doing though things
to the maximum. There are thresholds after which metagaming and code advantage are unacceptable.
If you do intend to retract or revise that statement, that's wonderful. (Though, the comment about being a "fucken lizard" seemed a bit insulting too.)
Also, for the record, your tirade a few posts back does describe my play fairly well. I don't miss RPTs because I think they'll kill my character. I don't avoid templars on the off chance they'll take interest in my character. Most of my characters do follow clan rules most of the time, and when broken it's usually for a good reason rather than because I'm OOCly bored. I don't make as much money as my characters (with non-salaried income) possibly can.
You're not a bad man because of your play. I don't actually know anything about your play. You're a bad man because you came here and, unprovoked as far as I can tell, said something insulting. (I suspect you're not really a bad man, though. Just a little misguided right now and/or having a bad day. It's OK.)
Oh hey new sig
Now let's get to making that Lord Cagelar already Lauramars
Don't mind me, just trying to get the last post before this thread gets locked.
Edit: I was too early. Woe. ;_;
Not if I can help it. @moe my original post always meant "within reason" or "as much as its okay to get away with" not "HUEHUEHUEHEUHE FUCK EVERYONE IM TWINKING UP BACKSTAB IN A WEEK"
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 01:30:48 PM
I'm just defending myself. You're basically sitting here telling me you're paragons of purist roleplay who've never played a PC selfishly. That you've never conveniently missed out on on a event that would probably lead to your death. ....Anyone who'd do that...what a boring MONSTER they are!!!.... That you never gracefully tiptoed out of the room when a Templar entered. That you never go outside the city or deviate from a certain pattern of play because that would be dangerous. That you never do X because you know it will probably lead to your death. That you never made way more sid than you should have. ETC. BECAUSE YOU'VE NEVER DONE ANY OF THIS RIGHT? You're all perfect little saints and I'm the big bad man for saying I want to metagame within reason and use the code to my advantage. Because apparently its okay older players to have a working knowledge of the code and act accordingly while younger players waste hours and HOURS of time because they are playing under false assumptions.
I am not guilty of any of this. The majority of my characters are long lived characters. I also send player complaints any time I see people metagaming.
I am a decade and a half veteran player.
(http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/306/8/5/deal_with_it____rarity_style_by_j_brony-d4ewawo.png)
You never play selfishly?
You'd never avoid a Templar, ever?
You'd never not do dangerous things because you know better?
You'd never use the code to your advantage?
...You'd never silt sea a PC?
Really now Dman. :)
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 02:27:37 PM
You never play selfishly?
You'd never avoid a Templar, ever?
You'd never not do dangerous things because you know better?
...You'd never silt sea a PC?
Really now Dman. :)
If I am playing a selfish character yes I will roleplay being selfish. I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
ponydealwithit.jpgIf I am being hunted of course I avoid templars. I highly recommend avoiding templars in general. I don't log out to avoid them. I don't not log in to avoid them. I stay away from them in game. That isn't metagaming. That is playing a realistic Zalanthan. That is called roleplaying accordingly.
I knowingly walked my longest lived and within arguement most well known/well liked/popular character of all time into a Tuluki templar jail cell on purpose knowing I would never walk out again because it was the IC thing to do.
ponydealwithit.jpgIf I am playing a character that does not enjoy doing dangerous things, yes, I will roleplay accordingly and not do dangerous things. I'm not sure I understand this question.
ponydealwithit.jpgWalking a character into the silt sea right out of character gen because you decide you want to play something else or because you get stats that are not realistic and/or make it impossible to realistically roleplay the character you have written is not metagaming. That is ensuring you do not ruin everyone else's immersion by trying to play an unrealistic or uninspiring character in a scenario that would be blatantly jarring to those around you.
The beastial, massive-muscled man - Poor Strength
I would find it almost impossible to roleplay that correctly and realistically and as such I might silt sea that character to save the staff the time it takes to answer a store request.
I'm not sure I understand your question here either, but I think you are implying I might silt sea a character just to try and get AI stats. Nope. I once silt sea'ed a cripple I wrote because he got AI agility. I couldn't play that realistically. So I silt sea'ed him for realism and roleplay reasons.
ponydealwithit.jpg
Quote from: LauraMars on August 26, 2013, 02:11:47 PM
Well. That escalated quickly.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8l60jLcij1ra5p9wo1_500.gif)
I think of it as a civic duty...
I think I would like to stick with the pony theme. I'm not sure why. I am feeling it is necessary this day.
(http://derpicdn.net/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMTIvMTAvMDcvMThfNTVfMjlfOTQ4XzExNjQ2OV9fVU5PUFRfX2Rpc2NvcmRfYW5jaG9ybWFuX3RoYXRfZXNjYWxhdGVkX3F1aWNrbHkiXV0/116469__safe_meme_image%2Bmacro_discord_chocolate%2Bmilk_anchorman_that%2Bescalated%2Bquickly.jpg)
Quote from: Desertman on August 26, 2013, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 01:30:48 PM
I'm just defending myself. You're basically sitting here telling me you're paragons of purist roleplay who've never played a PC selfishly. That you've never conveniently missed out on on a event that would probably lead to your death. ....Anyone who'd do that...what a boring MONSTER they are!!!.... That you never gracefully tiptoed out of the room when a Templar entered. That you never go outside the city or deviate from a certain pattern of play because that would be dangerous. That you never do X because you know it will probably lead to your death. That you never made way more sid than you should have. ETC. BECAUSE YOU'VE NEVER DONE ANY OF THIS RIGHT? You're all perfect little saints and I'm the big bad man for saying I want to metagame within reason and use the code to my advantage. Because apparently its okay older players to have a working knowledge of the code and act accordingly while younger players waste hours and HOURS of time because they are playing under false assumptions.
I am not guilty of any of this. The majority of my characters are long lived characters. I also send player complaints any time I see people metagaming.
I am a decade and a half veteran player.
(http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Deal+with+it_12e775_4191317.gif)
Much the same here.
Except a majority of my characters are quite short lived.
*My face when I realize I've been playing Arm on and off since I was twelve.
::Edit:: Now that I look over Wastrel's post some more.... I mean. It's not really considered metagaming to not leave the city because it's dangerous. Know why? Because it's very f'cking dangerous and every character is at least a little aware of this in an IC fashion. There's nothing OOC about it.
Not doing X because it'll kill you? That's.... I mean. What? You call that meta? Lemme level with you.... Even the most sheltered of PCs would more than likely know a thing or two about stuff that'll kill them. Pretty sure they'd avoid that.
Quote from: Desertman on August 26, 2013, 02:35:54 PM
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 02:27:37 PM
You never play selfishly?
You'd never avoid a Templar, ever?
You'd never not do dangerous things because you know better?
...You'd never silt sea a PC?
Really now Dman. :)
If I am playing a selfish character yes I will roleplaying being selfish. I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
ponydealwithit.jpg
If I am being hunted of course I avoid templars. I highly recommend avoiding templars in general. I don't log out to avoid them. I don't not log in to avoid them. I stay away from them in game. That isn't metagaming. That is playing a realistic Zalanthan. That is called roleplaying accordingly.
I knowingly walked my longest lived and within arguement most well known/well liked/popular character of all time into a Tuluki templar jail cell on purpose knowing I would never walk out again because it was the IC thing to do.
ponydealwithit.jpg
If I am playing a character that does not enjoy doing dangerous things, yes, I will roleplay accordingly and not do dangerous things. I'm not sure I understand this question.
ponydealwithit.jpg
Walking a character into the silt sea right out of character gen because you decide you want to play something else or because you get stats that are not realistic and/or make it impossible to realistically roleplay the character you have written is not metagaming. That is ensuring you do not ruin everyone else's immersion by trying to play an unrealistic or uninspiring character in a scenario that would be blatantly jarring to those around you.
The beastial, massive-muscled man - Poor Strength
I would find it almost impossible to roleplay that correctly and realistically and as such I might silt sea that character to save the staff the time it takes to answer a store request.
I'm not sure I understand your question here either, but I think you are implying I might silt sea a character just to try and get AI stats. Nope. I once silt sea'ed a cripple I wrote because he got AI agility. I couldn't play that realistically. So I silt sea'ed him for realism and roleplay reasons.
ponydealwithit.jpg
ohhh, so you're a method actor on a roleplay text mud from the 90s who completely inhabits his character from the moment he logs on to the moment he logs off and has no wants or desires as a player - no, none - you are just a mere vessel for the pc, a conduit
got it. also ponies r so ebin :D fuggg xBBB!! :)))
This is more or less accurate.
I don't break character until after the final after death kudos stop coming man.
(http://derpicdn.net/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMTIvMDkvMjYvMTdfMjFfMzJfMjc3XzEwNzEyM19fVU5PUFRfX3NhZmVfbWVtZV9jYXB0aW9uX3Z1bGdhcl9icm9ueV9yZWFjdGlvbl9mYWNlX3Ryb3BpY190aHVuZGVyX2tpcmtfbGF6YXJ1cyJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwiMjUweDI1MCJdXQ)
(http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Incredible-Hulk-Grin-Smile-Reaction-Gif.gif)
epic simply epic
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 02:41:26 PM
ohhh, so you're a method actor on a roleplay text mud from the 90s who completely inhabits his character from the moment he logs on to the moment he logs off and has no wants or desires as a player - no, none - you are just a mere vessel for the pc, a conduit
got it. also ponies r so ebin :D fuggg xBBB!! :)))
Maybe you're missing the point of a roleplaying mud?
Wants and desires as a player should include: Playing as realistically as possible, even if it means screwing yourself over. That in and of itself is the mark of a good player.
I mean, you can set goals all you want, but the instant you start playing in a way that slips from the whole "realism" and "shit that makes sense" theme, you're really missing the mark.
Wastrel, you're bringing up so many different and unrelated issues that it's impossible to get a handle on what you mean, except that you've apparently been PKed or otherwise having trouble keeping characters alive, and you come here often to angrily tell everyone what the game is all about and your idea of the secrets of longtime players, on the basis of very little experience.
Avoiding a Templar can be IC.
It can be good RP to play a PC in a risky manner. It can be good RP to play them cautiously. It depends on the PC. However, IC risks may have IC consequences.
A well-RPed PC can live a long time, or only a short time. It depends on the PC and the plots around them. A long life is not some reward for good roleplay.
Not every PC has to be involved primarily in the power-mongering political minigame that drives much of the plot. Not every PC has to be an effective killer, even long-lived ones.
"Using the code to your advantage" and "play selfishly" are so vague as to be meaningless.
You can't say broad, extreme statements like "I'm going to be as metagamey as possible" and expect people to charitably add "within reason" to all your statements in their minds. Hyperbole (along with sarcasm) is a very poor way to communicate on the web.
To claim people should have no wants or desires as a player is simply ludicrous. I agree entirely with you Qzzrbl, I've done it. I've done it while I've watched "veterans" get all spastic and evasive while they talk big on the gdb about how they're such dynamic roleplayers when in actuality they're tavern sitters or code hounds who want their epic master warrior items. Its all bullshit. So when Dman claims to be Daniel Day Lewis I cant help but laugh a little. I'm not talking about a lack of realism, I'm talking about a lack of honesty.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 12:11:49 PM
As Nyr has already tactfully revealed in a subtle-yet obvious manner, none of my PCs usually last longer than a month.
I don't get the impression that Nyr did that.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 12:11:49 PM
So here are my thoughts on PK. I will show you zero mercy if my PC wants to kill you. I will do it in the most efficient way possible if I can. If you kill my PC, one of three things happened a) you outsmarted me as a player b) i let you kill me c) I goofed. Simple as that. Call it metagaming, call it code bending, whatever. Semantics.
Neither metagaming or "code bending" are necessarily synonymous with efficiency, no mercy, or what have you. One can be these latter things and not be metagaming.
Concerning the rest of your posts: Your arguments throughout this thread are puzzling, and I'm struggling to follow you. I would say you've lost me, but that would require me to have understood your position at some point.
I dont even know what I'm talking about anymore
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 02:52:50 PM
To claim people should have no wants or desires as a player is simply ludicrous. I agree entirely with you Qzzrbl, I've done it. I've done it while I've watched "veterans" get all spastic and evasive while they talk big on the gdb about how they're such dynamic roleplayers when in actuality they're tavern sitters or code hounds who want their epic master warrior items. Its all bullshit. So when Dman claims to be Daniel Day Lewis I cant help but laugh a little. I'm not talking about a lack of realism, I'm talking about a lack of honesty.
Daniel Day Lewis couldn't tongue clean and moustache dust my keyboard. Don't compare me to that amateur punk.
Come back when you've lived longer than three months and tell us about how the game should change. I played this game when you had to walk back and forth in the snow up hill both ways just to find a dial up connection to play with 20 players in peak hours.
Kids today. *sigh*
(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/040/3/7/old_man_pony_by_allthevectors-d4p6gjb.png)
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 02:52:50 PM
So when Dman claims to be Daniel Day Lewis I cant help but laugh a little. I'm not talking about a lack of realism, I'm talking about a lack of honesty.
I'm gonna stop you right there.
Play with Dman before you say a thing, or even continue thinking about this subject.
He is indeed one of the Daniel Day-Lewis'est players around, if that's how you wanna put it.
Erm... Back on topic-- nobody is claiming that they don't have wants or desiers as a player, of course! We all do. But we don't twink out and try to "cheat the system" without actually cheating the system to accomplish it. As a matter of fact, trying to rulebend your way to your goals will more often than not turn out to be counter-productive.
Maybe this derail is too big for this thread!
Dont worry I'm finished
LOL, ok depending on a PC but think real life, Lets say you have something iilegal on you, well first off you will try and avoid any cops or people who you think would turn you in. IN that yes avoid icly with templars, soldiers and so on is fine in my book. Say in real life I (because I am a bad ass and you can ask Dman) say i catch you I am going to whoop some ass, then you would try and figure out where I hang out at, where I live what times I come and go from work to avoid me. But you can't just shack up in a house and peek out the blinds all the time but you WILL weight your risk of got to go shopping cause (I am a bad ass) so you have to time it. In arm and life you don't pick a fight or trouble with someone who you may think can out do you, nots meta game thats just balance of life. Plus I just wanted to post something so I have done it, and I will wait for others and Dman to thumbs up my post,,,,waiting!
lol
The funniest part about this is Wday is serious, I do know him IRL, I did show him this game many years ago, and everything he said is absolutely true. He is a bad ass. That is the only man I know personally who has killed something IRL with a sword.
Thumbs up.
:D
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 03:12:32 PM
Dont worry I'm finished
Yes you are. Go take a week off and stop trolling people.
This thread turned into a steaming pile of GDB.
The real point anyone should be making here is you can have aspirations for your character as a player. You can want things to happen and even actively pursue them, but you just have to do it in an IC and realistic way that fits the character and the rules of the game.
You can PK people if you want. Just try and give them and yourself a great experience. I won't ever run from great experiences and neither should anyone else.
Quote from: Patuk on August 26, 2013, 02:18:22 PM
Oh hey new sig
Now let's get to making that Lord Cagelar already Lauramars
He has to be Nakki!
Quote from: LauraMars on August 26, 2013, 03:30:02 PM
Quote from: Patuk on August 26, 2013, 02:18:22 PM
Oh hey new sig
Now let's get to making that Lord Cagelar already Lauramars
He has to be Nakki!
Yes.
Subtlety does not befit the cage :<
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 01:30:48 PM
QuoteBeing metagamey as possible and bending the code as far as you can ARE against the rules.
What rules, exactly? http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules Show me where it says I cant be metagamey or use the code to my advantage.
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules
1. Role-playing is _central_ to the environment--it is not considered an
option by the creators of the world, it is a strict requirement. If you
do not want to role-play, please go elsewhere.
FYI, the things you were suggesting that you should do have nothing to do with roleplaying (or are examples of poor roleplaying), therefore it
is part of the rules. :)
Back to the original topic:
I like PK and I don't think there's enough of it. Your character is going to die anyway, to one of these five causes, roughly in order of awesome:
- Staff/RPT
- PK
- NPCs
- The environment (sandstorms, getting lost and thirsty, falling off the Shield Wall, etc.)
- Your own stupidity (which often subsumes #4 after you've been around a few years)
Of the five, the first two are by far the most aweseome. Funnily enough, they're also the rarest.
Whenever I feel sore over a PK, I remember: it's better than dying to raptor #4792, which is what would have happened otherwise. (Caveat: some people win Armageddon by promotion storage. This also causes hurt feelings from time to time, which seems to me absurd - congratulations! You made it to Red Robe! You win!)
Murder, corruption, betrayal: it's the first word in the game's motto.
As for courtesies and methods in PK: if your character would give my character a scene, then do it. If you're a noble and I'm playing a Spy from House MI6, tying me to a table and saying, "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die," is awesome. If you're a random raider, enter the room, scream at me, and type "kill man." If you're an assassin, forego the screaming.
In return, when it's appropriate, I'll give you a scene right back. But when it's not:
Quote from: Nyr on September 13, 2010, 10:53:27 AM
Fleeing is roleplaying! I roleplay a lot, I know this.
As far as acceptable reasons to PK someone, here's a non-exhaustive list! (I like lists, they make me feel all warm and fuzzy.)
- He's on your turf.
- He threatened your friend.
- You suspect he might PK you if left alive.
- He has nicer boots than you do.
- He sassed you when he shouldn't have. (AKA, Braveheart Syndrome)
- He saw something he shouldn't have.
- You're worried any of the above might be true.
- He's part of a clan that's in mortal competition with your clan (e.g. Tuluk Legions vs. Arm of the Dragon)
Many of these have solutions other than PK as well, but PK is a perfectly acceptable solution. Oftentimes it's the only solution after escalation.
Lest you think I'm all for PK all the time, here's a list of reasons that aren't acceptable to PK:
- You found out through specious means that he's a magicker/psion/half-elf/whatever
- You don't like the player/the character annoys you OOCly
- They're a magicker. There are caveats to this, but your average Joe should probably consider running away or doing exactly what he says in hopes of getting out alive to be the primary option.
- You're a templar and he isn't.
- You're a noble and he isn't.
- He's part of a clan that's enemies but not at war with your clan. (e.g. SLK vs. Dune Stalkers)
In closing, I'd like to point to the rules, specifically 2-4, found here (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Rules).
Quote from: Rules of Armageddon
2. Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at the end of their careers.
3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of. The sole exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.
4. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't. See point 2 above.
and this little piece of gold,
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 19, 2008, 02:28:16 PM
One thing I'd like to see in arm is more people focusing on how to make the game intriguing, by filling it with murder, betrayal, and corruption, instead of arguing about how combat isn't powerful enough the current topic on the GDB cycle of hate. You know. Since that's, like, the focus of the fucking game.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 12:14:19 AM
Some huge event coming up that will probably get your PC killed? Discretely miss out on the action.
I realize that the train to Dead Horse has left the station, but I think this is the thing that mystifies me most about your position.
Most of the veteran players I know will call in sick to work, invite arguments with their s/o, miss three good parties, give up on the idea of eating/drinking/peeing/or sleeping for half a day, upgrade their internet connection, and skip out on a court summons just to attend an RPT, let alone an HRPT.
I just have no clue where you got the opposite idea. If it was from something you saw, I think you misinterpreted it. If someone actually told you that they do this, I feel pretty confident saying that is
not representative of the pbase as a whole.
Back on topic, I think it bears pointing out that there are also roles where you can be
required to kill PCs (like soldiers, Templars, gladiators, clanned raiding tribes, etc). In these situations, it can get interesting and complicated if you would prefer
not to kill a PC for some reason when your character absolutely would or should.
I can't resist a spot of devil's advocacy. I apologise for being a little off-topic.
So, sure, Wastrel's dug himself into a hole and thrown around a lot of dirt. He's saying veteran players use OOC understanding to their advantage. There's a bit of a backlash to this.
He is of course correct in some measure. Veteran players routinely avoid stupid deaths by adjusting their RP round OOC considerations.
Where code and RP diverge:
This is one of the most justifiable rationales for doing so: the way the code works leads to outcomes which don't make much IC sense.
I could tell tales of old dead characters here. Instead I'll provide an example: a noble's bodyguard beating up a rude 'Rinth rat on the noble's request is not ICly in danger of getting hauled in by the militia. It makes no sense at all within the context of the world. The IC law is flexible, written by templars on the spot to their convenience, weighted massively toward the rich and influential. The coded law does not work like this. It doesn't distinguish IC status in any but the crudest fashion.
Veteran players understand where these divergences happen, sometimes having run into them the hard way, and direct their roleplay to avoid their appearance where possible. Sometimes this involves holding a character back from something they should naturally do, but that the code won't properly support.
Exploration:
IC justifications are found to keep characters from doing things that have been found to be harmful or suicidal by previous characters.
This comes in many guises. For a relatively benign one, consider a hypothetical case where your character is weak from hunger. In the pack held by the dead PC you've just stumbled across are three pieces of fruit of kinds your character has never eaten before. One is a piece of fruit a previous character has eaten safely before, one is completely unknown, and the last is poisonous and killed a previous character of yours.
How many of us will put aside our OOC knowledge and elect to try the poisonous fruit first, given we can easily bend our RP to accommodate the alternatives?
---
So what am I saying here? Well, mostly, that these things aren't black and white. There are layers of knowledge about the game found out with one character which get carried forward to other characters, and only some of these are genuinely improved understanding of how the world works roleplay-wise. Players will use their understanding of the code to their characters' advantage and this can be a not inconsiderable source of advantage for veteran players. We do use metagame tricks in the sense that our characters don't make decisions that are reasonable ICly but which we OOCly know will lead to the mantis head in a boring or ICly unlikely manner.
What Wastrel's missing is that many veterans will happily make decisions that are reasonable ICly that they OOCly suspect will lead to an interesting death and give some other players some fun. How do they make characters that live so long? Well, as said before, often they don't. When they do, they adjust for code quirks, sure, but they also learn to endure boredom without taking silly risks, gain an appreciation of how to co-exist with the IC powers of the world, and find IC ways of expressing their character's desire for self-preservation at the potential expense of some excitement.
---
Oh, and since there's a topic:
The game thrives on conflict. Small-scale conflicts which rapidly result in someone dying and then end are boring. Large-scale conflicts can survive deaths along the way much better, and a small-scale conflict that festers and grows into a bloody ending can be a nice satisfying arc for all concerned.
So, as far as I'm concerned, if a conflict participant can be kept alive via a very little IC stretching, that's often good for everyone. Maybe your Nakki patriot doesn't see the wounded Tuluki left for dead among the rest of the pile of bodies. Maybe your templar is willing to exile the annoying thief rather than execute her. But if there's never any danger of death in these scenarios, the tension is lost. Some characters are going to have to die just to keep things interesting.
That was very well-written.
Quirk, welcome back. Gawddamn, welcome back.
I've been playing Skyrim again lately. There's this random encounter you can have on the road with an orc who says "I am looking for a good death." He tells you how he's old and had many battles and wants to have an awesome death before he grows feeble and weak.
It reminded me of Armageddon. There's a step in evolution as a player where you stop trying to keep your characters alive at all costs, and start trying to find awesome ways for your characters to die.
Wasn't that orc in Morrowind?
There's an Orc in Morrowind (named Umbra) who is of similar personality.
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 11:36:27 AM
Like...you keep picking apart my examples, but you're just missing the point. I've been being a scrub. I've constructed this false set of rules for myself on how to act within armageddon. Those rules are simply wrong. As long as I act within the confines of the game and my character, whats the problem?
Of course you can have long-lived PCs by not pissing people off. Like... derr. To say that veteran players dont do the things I described is just delusional. I cant tell you how many times I've seen veteran PCs simply be evasive to the point of ridiculousness. This goes for all types of roleplay. You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs. I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.
I'm a veteran player of Armageddon (this is what, almost my third year of playing now?)
I fucking die -all the time-. I do not avoid big events. My longest lived characters aged maybe once or twice before being killed, but I have never EVER avoided a drastically violent situation that would end with my death. In fact, fi you dig around on the forums, I WELCOMED one such situation with open arms and RP'd it out to the fullest of my capabilities, and it ended up being ridiculously fun.
tl;dr You're Wrong.
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 11, 2013, 09:28:06 PM
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 11:36:27 AM
Like...you keep picking apart my examples, but you're just missing the point. I've been being a scrub. I've constructed this false set of rules for myself on how to act within armageddon. Those rules are simply wrong. As long as I act within the confines of the game and my character, whats the problem?
Of course you can have long-lived PCs by not pissing people off. Like... derr. To say that veteran players dont do the things I described is just delusional. I cant tell you how many times I've seen veteran PCs simply be evasive to the point of ridiculousness. This goes for all types of roleplay. You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs. I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.
I'm a veteran player of Armageddon (this is what, almost my third year of playing now?)
I fucking die -all the time-. I do not avoid big events. My longest lived characters aged maybe once or twice before being killed, but I have never EVER avoided a drastically violent situation that would end with my death. In fact, fi you dig around on the forums, I WELCOMED one such situation with open arms and RP'd it out to the fullest of my capabilities, and it ended up being ridiculously fun.
tl;dr You're Wrong.
Three years does not make you a veteran. Talk to the folks who have played 15years those are vets
Beginning Armageddon players often imagine that their PCs lives will play out like it would in a fantasy book, or in a pen and paper campaign, or on another MUD where there's no permadeath.
Permadeath is a heavy dose of reality that changes the way characters' lives are played out drastically.
If you're long lived and you're doing stuff, you're most likely NOT the "good guy." Just like in the real world, nice guys finish last. Good guys die first.
I have played "good" characters and their lives have ended dramatically earlier than I expect. This is because the harsh reality of an unjust world hits them at some point and down they go. That's because Armageddon is unlike most fantasy novels; it's more similar to the minority of fantasy novels that get a lot of respect here, ones where characters are killed off based on their actions and the setting. Adult fantasy. "Dark fantasy." There are lots of terms for it, but the bottom line is that realism is incorporated properly and events have consequences.
Those "good guys" that die due to their willingness to take risks or defend someone they love or their dedication to crime or cruelty or whatever it is, are missed. Missed by their players, and the PCs they interacted with. I remember most fondly those characters that I roleplayed with fidelity to the concept, even when it led to them dying.
My attempts at doing the above have also led to my PCs killing other PCs, and therefore I too enforce the reality that Zalanthas is meant to have.
Now, this isn't to say I'm a badass. I'm a peon among others here that REALLY do the above; to some degree I enjoy the "game" as much as the story and I make OOC decisions at times that benefit me "unrealistically." But, this game isn't about winning or losing, karma or whatever. It's just about having fun. The fact that it is entirely free reinforces this fact. You're volunteering to be here, so are the staff; we're more like sharing stories and trading blows in an eternal spar that was never meant to have a winner. This is how killing should be seen; a cycle, a part of an eternal struggle that has no defined end. Much like life itself... again, permadeath = reality.
edited for slightly more clarity, having some insomnia and decided to crawl out of bed to post something..
Good guys do not always necessarily finish last, you can still be a good person in Armageddon. Just think about "Good" as it relates to what city-state you're in. If you're a Nakki and you kill yourself an inked northerner in an alley and then split the coin (80 20) with a Templar (in the Templars favor), you just did a good deed.
Similarly, if you're a Tuluki and you 'disappear' a southerner, and nobody ever hears about them again (especially a Nakki), well hell. You just did a Good Thing.
TRUE good does not exist in Zalanthas and cannot because Perceived Good will destroy it eventually.
Also, as far as PC killing, I have killed a grand total of maybe six PCs in my time and I have not regretted a single one. They all deserved it in their own way. I felt bad at the time about one because it was this -huge- trust thing, and man... I felt so bad about offing the guy. But I came to accept it later as my character performed THE ultimate back stab on a supposed friend.
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 11, 2013, 09:28:06 PM
Quote from: Wastrel on August 26, 2013, 11:36:27 AM
Like...you keep picking apart my examples, but you're just missing the point. I've been being a scrub. I've constructed this false set of rules for myself on how to act within armageddon. Those rules are simply wrong. As long as I act within the confines of the game and my character, whats the problem?
Of course you can have long-lived PCs by not pissing people off. Like... derr. To say that veteran players dont do the things I described is just delusional. I cant tell you how many times I've seen veteran PCs simply be evasive to the point of ridiculousness. This goes for all types of roleplay. You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs. I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.
I'm a veteran player of Armageddon (this is what, almost my third year of playing now?)
I fucking die -all the time-. I do not avoid big events. My longest lived characters aged maybe once or twice before being killed, but I have never EVER avoided a drastically violent situation that would end with my death. In fact, fi you dig around on the forums, I WELCOMED one such situation with open arms and RP'd it out to the fullest of my capabilities, and it ended up being ridiculously fun.
tl;dr You're Wrong.
Dat necro.
Lets be straight up. Here is what I was saying in pretty simple terms so no one misunderstands me. I've never been really good at explaining myself because I've never enjoyed painting out things in detail so people wont misunderstand me. Anyway.
Basically I was saying that in order to have a long lived PC, you gotta play smart. This is not a radical or abstract concept. This can be defined as being tactical about long-term decisions for your PC or just common sense. Its not "metagaming" - its just playing smarter. Its really not that big of deal. Alot of you older players have had that one great PC, that one PC that was alive for a shitload of time and did a bunch of cool plots and had adventures galore. You basically won Arm on that PC. I have never got to experience that. I have had some cool times on Arm, but never that. I just want to be the pretty little princess, once. So sue me. I think alot of the older players who say "Ya man, death whenever, thats cool /w me" have already had such a PC.
I am fairly confident in my skills as a player on the mud armageddon.org. I know the game pretty well and can roleplay with the best of em. I'm not some mega-twink who grinds skills all the time nor am I some evasive little cockerel who avoids anything dangerous. I think alot of the negativity directed @ me was because people thought that what I was saying I was going to do. Its not.
Vets dont avoid conflict all the time, but they do play smart so their PC can live a long time, if they want it to. I was calling this metagaming, and that was probably not the best term to use. And of course there are always those extremely lucky types that do all sorts of wild shit and live for forever. Whatevs. Not that big of a deal. Alright we're done here.
tl;dr You're beating a dead horse br0
I haven't read many of the posts in this thread, sorry. I think the best response to this is the same that you get in those mating/mudhumping threads: Just act in a way that is in character. It's not beneficial to think of PC killing as an action of a different class than any other act a human would do.
There are plenty of IC reasons to kill in many parts of Zalanthas. If someone steals something of great value to you or does some other great harm to you, sure, you might want to kill them or hurt them. Maybe you are incapable of doing this yourself and have to seek militia, some other group. Maybe these groups refuse to help you because you don't have enough clout with them, so then you have to hire an independent assassin or thug to help you. Maybe you think you can get vengeance on your own and ride out to kill a bitch. [Edit]: Maybe you are a weak scrub with no coin and no clout so you have to resort to spying and blackmail to get back at your foe; if you are successful that could bring more misery than PKing.
There are a few character concepts (raiders, assassins) that let you PK with abandon. It can be a problem if you enjoy that too much OOCly and get a kick out of ending other humainoids so much that your RP falters for it; fortunately characters with problematic behavior in game are often taken out for it. Most player deaths I have seen in game have been warranted for some reason or another. I've had characters of mine murdered within hours of character generation, but even then I was just thankful that people were RPing character concepts that make Zalanthas harsh and full of death, as it should be.
Playing stupid =/= short life.
Playing smart =/= long life.
It's luck of the die (hahah) in that case, I assure you. I have played some intense characters who take some VERY big risks, and they have panned out for a decent bit of time AFAIK.
Have I posted in this thread? I feel like I have, but if I haven't, it seems pretty clear-cut to me.
I hate ending PCs. That's someone's baby right there. However, we all knew the risks as soon as we rolled up our PCs.
We are participating in a collaborative storytelling effort, and sometimes that means our part in the story ends. Therefore, it makes no sense to avoid killing another PC if that it is the logical IC choice for your character. Sometimes the overarching story demands that a chapter end, as much as you hate doing it.
I'm with Delirium, here.
The one time I -should- have found a way to kill another PC, it kind of made sense IC and made much sense OOC, my PC didn't bother looking into it and it came back to bite him in the ass.
As a long time player I would welcome death at the hands of a well played character over anything else.
I would hope they appreciate if I manage to give them the same.
PC killing is a vital part of the game's atmosphere. If it was taken away, a lot of the tension and excitement would go with it.
I'm not opposed to killing or being killed - and frankly have had beloved, hard-worked-on PCs die in a moment without warning and accept that (along with a bit of whiskey) as part of life on Armageddon. That said - what has helped me curb killing is to note that killing a PC that is a problem for my PC may not really solve the problem in the long term.
Granted, not all killer PCs are going to have saintly insight - who would want it that way? I have noted however that characters I have killed in the past I might not had to kill had I played it out differently. It's never necessary to kill a character, really, unless you are locked in deadly combat - and maybe not always then, either.
The worst is having a beloved character into whom one has put in many hours (yours, or another person's) die in a moment without explanation or understanding. That is a part of life on Arm too - but I know I would have loved to have one or two of those characters get a moment to grovel, to beg, to become indebted too their would-be murderer. I won't deny that to another player's character, if given the chance.
However, if you spam run from my desert raider, I will shoot you down! :D
Quote from: DustMight on October 26, 2013, 09:14:03 PM
I'm not opposed to killing or being killed - and frankly have had beloved, hard-worked-on PCs die in a moment without warning and accept that (along with a bit of whiskey) as part of life on Armageddon. That said - what has helped me curb killing is to note that killing a PC that is a problem for my PC may not really solve the problem in the long term.
Granted, not all killer PCs are going to have saintly insight - who would want it that way? I have noted however that characters I have killed in the past I might not had to kill had I played it out differently. It's never necessary to kill a character, really, unless you are locked in deadly combat - and maybe not always then, either.
The worst is having a beloved character into whom one has put in many hours (yours, or another person's) die in a moment without explanation or understanding. That is a part of life on Arm too - but I know I would have loved to have one or two of those characters get a moment to grovel, to beg, to become indebted too their would-be murderer. I won't deny that to another player's character, if given the chance.
However, if you spam run from my desert raider, I will shoot you down! :D
If I'm spamming run and dismounted <_< You should just chase me until I run outta stamina. At that point I'm COMPLETELY fucked.
"So, what's to stop me from killin' ya right now?"
"I-I-I.. h-here!"
drop pack
I shared my thoughts on this a while back in another one of these threads (here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,45979.msg770734.html#msg770734), here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,45979.msg770747.html#msg770747) and here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,45979.msg770977.html#msg770977)), so all I'll say here is... Nyr said it best, in my sig.
Leaving someone alive when I could and should have probably killed them led to some of the best plots I've ever had.
On the other hand, sometimes that's just not an option.
n w n w n w ... Shoot if you like but I stagger my steps.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 26, 2013, 10:55:38 PM
n w n w n w ... Shoot if you like but I stagger my steps.
Movement speed is too fast in this game. Escaping like this should NEVER be an option. You should be able to draw and fire an arrow/throw a bola before someone can move through 2 rooms.
People should not be able to speed through a damn room before you can ever go "l figure" or "watch figure" or "follow/shadow figure".
Also, running trumps Guard way too hard.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 26, 2013, 11:43:14 PM
Movement speed is too fast in this game ... You should be able to draw and fire an arrow/throw a bola before someone can move through 2 rooms ... People should not be able to speed through a damn room before you can ever go "l figure" or "watch figure" or "follow/shadow figure".
Agreed.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 26, 2013, 11:43:14 PM
Also, running trumps Guard way too hard.
Mmmm, nah. I'm good with that. Guard isn't a magickal wall of sand or something ...
To be completely honest... If your character is some jerk who just kills whatever they see, fine, but I didn't app my character, wait the necessary time, spend time developing skills, just to be another notch on your belt. Now, if you want to walk up and RP some you'll be much more likely to get what you want, if what you want is to kill my character. Starting off by shooting an arrow is not the way to do it, maybe try throwing a bola or something fun like that, or taint your arrows.
Just like IRL, if you're running from someone with a gun, you never run in a straight line.
Yeah but in real life you can shoot to the north-east.
My stance on PC killing, and ultimately the bit of text that drew me to the game in the first place.
Quote from: The helpfilesComplaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
I don't know about your IRL experience, but I've found it very difficult to hit an unpredictably moving target... And I think rifles are more reliable than bows.
That said, if you can shoot me, kudos. If you can't, you need to stop thinking with your arrows and use your brain. No offense intended.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 27, 2013, 03:08:12 PM
I don't know about your IRL experience, but I've found it very difficult to hit an unpredictably moving target... And I think rifles are more reliable than bows.
That said, if you can shoot me, kudos. If you can't, you need to stop thinking with your arrows and use your brain. No offense intended.
Well and good, but this is directly countered by the 'If I can kill you I will because I earned it.' Not that that's bad. I can't really reiterate enough that deaths in this game promote just as much RP as mercy, when you zoom out and view the big picture instead of keeping trained on -your- character and -your- plot, etc etc.
Understand that my selfish nature, and by extension, my character's selfish nature, will always trump the noble notion of just standing there and letting you shoot them... We can debate the merits or bad bits all day. Still, if you just walk up and say "Huh, shitty weather out here today." you've done most of the work needed already, without wasting an arrow. Is that too much to ask?
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 27, 2013, 03:08:12 PM
I don't know about your IRL experience, but I've found it very difficult to hit an unpredictably moving target... And I think rifles are more reliable than bows.
That said, if you can shoot me, kudos. If you can't, you need to stop thinking with your arrows and use your brain. No offense intended.
I really don't understand what point you're trying to make. Going n,w,n,w is not "zig-zagging" like in real life. You're literally covering hundreds of yards of terrain with each movement. It's also completely pointless to do if you're trying to dodge arrows. All you need to do is run, and that's what I have a problem with. Running is so easy that killing first and asking no questions becomes the norm.
'Running first means I can't ever do shit so I'm forced to kill on sight and shoot anyone I can't help it it's not my fault'
'I'd drop my things and run if they told me to but everyone just attacks on sight so I always just run I can't help it it's not my fault'
See what I did there?
Ahhhh... I see... Yes, I can see how that can be a problem, RGS... Still, if scared for one's life, well, trust me, you can run pretty damned fast when terrified. Also, yeah, arrows send the wrong message... You want meaningful interaction, walk up and threaten, how do I know if you have a buddy out in the bush who is a crack shot with a bow or not, trained on my position and waiting for the smallest movement? I promise I'll stand still if you do something other than open fire with no provocation.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 27, 2013, 03:40:06 PM
Ahhhh... I see... Yes, I can see how that can be a problem, RGS... Still, if scared for one's life, well, trust me, you can run pretty damned fast when terrified. Also, yeah, arrows send the wrong message... You want meaningful interaction, walk up and threaten, how do I know if you have a buddy out in the bush who is a crack shot with a bow or not, trained on my position and waiting for the smallest movement? I promise I'll stand still if you do something other than open fire with no provocation.
Because the "smallest movement" means you're suddenly moved 1 room away and you don't have to worry about shit from an archer. :P
The cool thing about this game is that I can keep killing the people around me until I get some that I like (this works really well when playing a Southern Templar). This may not happen, but it's certainly within the bounds of the laws of probability. The only real drawback is that they might kill me instead, and I'm not really a fan of that.
I'd think northern Templars get more opportunities to just kill people they don't like, but hey, biased here, so maybe not true.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 27, 2013, 04:46:10 PM
I'd think northern Templars get more opportunities to just kill people they don't like, but hey, biased here, so maybe not true.
That's possible but I've never heard about a northern templar killing anyone that wasn't an evil person that didn't have it coming anyway(!)
Quote from: Molten Heart on October 27, 2013, 04:49:42 PM
That's possible but I've neverheard about a northern templar killing anyone that wasn't an evil person that didn't have it coming anyway(!)
I see what you did there. :)
Quote from: Molten Heart on October 27, 2013, 04:49:42 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 27, 2013, 04:46:10 PM
I'd think northern Templars get more opportunities to just kill people they don't like, but hey, biased here, so maybe not true.
That's possible but I've never heard about a northern templar killing anyone that wasn't an evil person that didn't have it coming anyway(!)
Did you not just describe half (or maybe more than that, just a rough estimate) the active PC population of the mud?
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 27, 2013, 05:18:56 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on October 27, 2013, 04:49:42 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 27, 2013, 04:46:10 PM
I'd think northern Templars get more opportunities to just kill people they don't like, but hey, biased here, so maybe not true.
That's possible but I've never heard about a northern templar killing anyone that wasn't an evil person that didn't have it coming anyway(!)
Did you not just describe half (or maybe more than that, just a rough estimate) the active PC population of the mud?
The (!) is supposed to denote the sarcasm.
Oh, duhr, yes, I've heard that before. I should pay more attention.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 27, 2013, 03:19:04 PM
Understand that my selfish nature, and by extension, my character's selfish nature....
This troubles me. Do you only play yourself or do you roleplay other personalities?
Number one, that is not your concern, that is the concern of staff... Number two, no... Still, there are tiny bits I'll never be able to get rid of, but I bet if you could see my thinks, feels, and actions, you'd realize each time it's a new character... With tiny bits of human that are impossible to kill unless you have some kind of severe conscience deficit... And I have to say that sociopath or psychopath is utterly beyond me. Maybe in a few years I can do it, but right now? No.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 30, 2013, 09:26:21 PM
Number one, that is not your concern, that is the concern of staff... Number two, no... Still, there are tiny bits I'll never be able to get rid of, but I bet if you could see my thinks, feels, and actions, you'd realize each time it's a new character... With tiny bits of human that are impossible to kill unless you have some kind of severe conscience deficit... And I have to say that sociopath or psychopath is utterly beyond me. Maybe in a few years I can do it, but right now? No.
Oh I wasn't gonna say shit about this, but then I changed my mind.
Every PC I play is pretty much me on Zalanthas.
Swimming in mad kudos for it, too.
(http://thesearethings.com/work/hatersgonnahate/img/hatersgonnahate-01.gif)
ShaLeah... I think... Well, if you knew my characters, you'd be a blast.
I can't help but let at least some of my personality bleed into my characters, I think it's pretty normal.
Less so now then when I started. If I set my mind to it I can remove or add certain attributes, but I'm always there somewhere.
Quote from: BleakOne on November 01, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
I can't help but let at least some of my personality bleed into my characters, I think it's pretty normal.
If you're even a little bit as awesome as your character, I'd hang out with you :P
It has been a while since I last played a raider...and some of you know who that was.
but as of my last raider, I found that 98% of the time people would stay and RP.. I believe that is because I made it a rule to open with good RP/emotes/tell/shout etc. the onus is on the raider to let the mark know they want a scene.
The same goes for intent to kill...true, the % is lower, but still a majority of the time the mark will play it out if they know that is your desire....sure, they might run, but usually they will emote then run...then spam moves...which is fine.
It is always worthwhile, if you want a scene to let the other player know you do...if you let them know and they just spam away...well, just remember it and don't warn next time.
Keep a log of both times as well, so when they whine to staff you can send righteous logs and they will get the "complaints of unfairness" from staff.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 27, 2013, 03:11:15 PM
I can't really reiterate enough that deaths in this game promote just as much RP as mercy
Not really true, a lot of the time. Someone can roll up a mul raider and 86 every character they run across, racking up a huge PK count quickly.
Did they earn this right? Arguably. Is it IC for most muls to murder? Sure. Are they capable of shredding most PCs from the jump and PK'ing them? Pretty much.
Does it add anything to the game with this happens?
Not really, honestly, especially when considering alternatives. And there are alternatives: Just ask Bushman.
I cannot even count how many mul raiders I have killed.
Maybe half-giant raider or delf or sorc or something would be a better example.
;D
Quote from: X-D on November 03, 2013, 01:59:11 AM
I cannot even count how many mul raiders I have killed.
Maybe half-giant raider or delf or sorc or something would be a better example.
;D
Was referring to targets with little gear and who are mostly mount less.
Point being, all deaths do not lead to greater RP. Some deaths are just cheeseball because that character wanted to player kill another player.
And the most successful raider clans just... Didn't do that unless the marks ran.
But both sides of the fence aren't ultimately right or wrong.
I think maturity and having been around the game for a while is what allows players to see alternatives to killing PCs, while newer players/less creative players will player kill more readily.
When I was younger, I PK'd folks that I really regret having PK'd. Not because my characters were without IC reason, but looking back all those years from the perspective of someone who has aged, I realize there are alternate routes I could have taken that would have had basically the same end result without ending a character's life. Having said that, there are times when characters probably do need to be killed when an assassin is left with little alternatives, but even that is highly subjective and open to interpretation, for staff and players alike.