Here's something we might consider, in view of the exponential increase in in-game craftables as well as the increase in playerbase vis-a-vis the lack of coin with some shopkeepers (from time to time).
Perhaps the city-states could set up auction houses, which would allow PCs to come and sell their items to the highest bidder.
This would solve a few problems:
a) Having a restriction of selling only x number of a particular item to a shop.
b) Having a restriction of selling that item type only to one or two shops (because the other shops don't buy that item type).
c) Having a restriction on the amount of sids the shopkeeper has to begin with for purchases.
Additionally, this would also facilitate:
1) Being able to reach a larger audience who could buy/sell items under one roof.
2) Less likelyhood of hoarding of items.
3) A general ease in overall trade and commerce.
For example:
You enter the spanking new Nenyuki auction house.
To the north is the weapons auctioneer.
To the south is the armor auctioneer.
To the east is the clothing auctioneer.
To the west is the miscellaneous item auctioneer.
Up from here is the raw material auctioneer.
(You get the drift)
The way it'd work is, anyone wishing to sell an item could go to the relevant auctioneer and auction off their item using the command:
auction <item> <minbid> <maxbid>
minbid would be the minimum amount a buyer would have to bid, to get the item.
maxbid would be the maximum amount a buyer would have to bid, to outright purchase the item on the spot.
As a buyer, I could auction my obsidian longsword at a minbid of 50 coins and a maxbid of lets say 140 coins.
The auctioneer would then take the item from my inventory and tell me "Alright, I'll try and sell this item for you, mind you, I'll keep 10 percent of whatever price I end up selling it at as my commission. If the item isn't sold in a month, you can come and recollect it, or starting next month, it'll be scrapped."
As a seller, if I went up to that same auctioneer and typed LIST, I'd see something like:
[1] an obsidian longsword for a minimum bid of 50 coins and for outright purchase at 140 coins.
I could bid 140 and get the item right then, or, I could bid lets say 50 coins, in which case the auctioneer would tell me "Alright, I'm noting your bid for 50 coins, come back tomorrow morning and if there's no higher bids, its yours."
When I return the next morning, if there have been no other bids on the same item I could just type "collect" and the auctioneer would give me the longsword for 50 coins.
If someone else (except the seller) bids on the same item at a higher price, obviously my bid will be negated, and the autioneer would list the item as:
[1] an obsidian longsword for a minimum bid of 50 coins and for outright purchase at 140 coins, currently bidding at 65 coins.
If I did not return within the stipulated time (next day) the auctioneer would put the item back on the auction block and cancel my bid.
At the end of the sale, when the seller returns to the auctioneer, and types "collect" the auctioneer would give him whatever price the item ended up being sold at, minus the 10% commission.
Last but not the least, if no one bid on the item, and, if the seller did not return within a month (or whatever time limit is deemed fit) to recollect his item, the item would disappear from the auctioneer's list and be junked, without any refund to the seller (risk of doing business with Nenyuk!).
Also, the underlying regulator in this idea is that if someone tries to sell an item for more than what it'd sell for in a shop, no one would buy it in the first place.....
I know it sounds complicated, but its simple enough - once it sinks in.
Edited to add:
So if a seller sees 3 obsidian longswords being auctioned at a maxbid of 140 coins, he'd be wise to auction his own at lets say 135 coins! End result - cheaper goods for the masses and the brutal business of undercutting prices goes on in the harsh world of Zalanthas!
I dig this idea.
I dig. I'm sure the GMHs would keep an eye on anything moving through the Auction Houses that is dangerously close to their own crafts.
Although, that said, I also hate the idea of an Auction House unless its a Real Money Auction House. I'll give you five bucks if I can have some Saurokore armor.
We do want there to be room for independent crafters, merchants, and independent organizations. With that said, that should not be at detriment to existing clans. We will be reviewing situations with independents, but probably not in this direction. If anything, there are a handful of indie crafters/merchants that make too much money without the social and political cajones (and RP) to back that up.
So, can I have my five bucks back, Nyr?
I've always thought auction houses are a great idea, but oddly enough, in other games where they've been coded, nobody ever took use of them.
It may be that you just need an enormously larger player population to get something like an MMO auction house to work.
Quote from: Nyr on April 07, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
If anything, there are a handful of indie crafters/merchants that make too much money without the social and political cajones (and RP) to back that up.
The good news is that a solution is also readily available in the helpfiles.
Quote from: help assassinAssassins are often the simplest people to employ, for various warring factions usually have a desire to see their enemies slain quietly and simply, with minimal risk to themselves. For this reason, skilled assassins are almost never without work.
In grungetown on Atonement RPI the coded auction house was used quite frequently.
Quote from: Flincher on April 07, 2013, 08:37:46 PM
In grungetown on Atonement RPI the coded auction house was used quite frequently.
I only played that game from Mars onward, so I suppose I don't know much about how its economy worked when it actually had an economy.
I see auctions IG from time to time. i would like to see more though.
The problem with PC to PC commerce is actually a larger issue to do with item durability, etc etc.
All of the suggestions in this area were generally reviled.
As it is now, after a certain point alot of players "gear out" as it were, and don't need to buy things like a cheap obsidian sword, or a pair of tandu leather gloves. They already have their amazing weapons and armor they saved up for - when in reality (or better, "more realistically") there would be a great demand for everyday goods, like undergarments, torches and lanterns (seems like more torches should be crafteable), boot soles (or least boot repairers), and a great deal many more plain and mundane items (in addition to more services for armor and weapon repair).
More bags should be crafteable.
Tools should wear out, especially considering the materials of some and what they are being used for.
I think simplier solutions like this would trump a large scale overhaul, at least in the mean time until we get 100+ players around nightly :)
+1 to Jenred's post.
Quote from: Kismetic on April 08, 2013, 09:02:54 AM
+1 to Jenred's post.
Most definately in regards to tools wearing out
Quote from: Jenred on April 08, 2013, 05:19:34 AM
The problem with PC to PC commerce is actually a larger issue to do with item durability, etc etc.
All of the suggestions in this area were generally reviled.
As it is now, after a certain point alot of players "gear out" as it were, and don't need to buy things like a cheap obsidian sword, or a pair of tandu leather gloves. They already have their amazing weapons and armor they saved up for - when in reality (or better, "more realistically") there would be a great demand for everyday goods, like undergarments, torches and lanterns (seems like more torches should be crafteable), boot soles (or least boot repairers), and a great deal many more plain and mundane items (in addition to more services for armor and weapon repair).
More bags should be crafteable.
Tools should wear out, especially considering the materials of some and what they are being used for.
I think simplier solutions like this would trump a large scale overhaul, at least in the mean time until we get 100+ players around nightly :)
I really like the idea of needing to replace equipment or in the least repair it through PC's. On top of the obvious boost to sales and trade, it ups interaction among the playerbase. It may also create a secondary market for cloth items as people who aren't planning on hunting or fighting may wear a "city" outfit.
Quote from: Rumor on April 08, 2013, 10:12:47 AM
I really like the idea of needing to replace equipment or in the least repair it through PC's. On top of the obvious boost to sales and trade, it ups interaction among the playerbase. It may also create a secondary market for cloth items as people who aren't planning on hunting or fighting may wear a "city" outfit.
Buying it is one thing, but.. I really do think the armor repair skill need some looking at if you want pcs to be the source of that.
How about a bulk "junk buyer" NPC?
The bulk junk buyer would pay based on weight of item and its material, and would offer a price for a whole bag of junk and require there be at least five items in it, as the usual.
If the game could do a calculation for the "junk price" of every item without it needing to be pre-coded, then this could be a good source of revenue for crap scavengers who are so desperate they'd be willing to take something like 1 coin per stone weight for rocks, 2 coins per stone weight of raw hides, 3 coins per stone weight of cured leather/shell/chitin, etc etc..
Quote from: Nyr on April 07, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
We do want there to be room for independent crafters, merchants, and independent organizations. With that said, that should not be at detriment to existing clans. We will be reviewing situations with independents, but probably not in this direction. If anything, there are a handful of indie crafters/merchants that make too much money without the social and political cajones (and RP) to back that up.
If they had to keep their wealth on them in some tangible obtainable way, this problem would solve its self.
Right now you can put your vast amount of single-handedly earned wealth into a virtual "vault" where it can't be touched by anyone who would want to do you harm/take that wealth from you. Nenyuk is so kind and generous they will even guard it for you without fail for free.
If you had to keep a "bank voucher" or something like that on you, the same way you do for mount tickets, I can see a lot of merchants who are vastly wealthy suddenly hiring guards, and thus depleting some of that wealth realistically, or suddenly dissapearing.
When there is no actual risk to losing your wealth, and no potential gain to eliminating the wealthy, they tend to stick around for a while.
I like the idea of merchants having more to fear, but having to hold on to a ticket at all times feels kind of lame. It's like a bag of jew gold a la Cartman from Southpark -- not kewl.
Nenyuki tellers should be smart enough to know who you are without you needing to provide a ticket; when the ragamuffin rinthi suddenly shows with a ticket and withdraws ten thousand chips I would feel the immersion dissolving all around me when the teller hands the money over.
Bank robberies? Edit: maybe not an awesome idea. How about we just add more bank fees?
Also, has anybody actually tried to mug a merchant lately? I swear all the merchants I know carry a few diamonds and shit on their person (for protection), so it's not like a crook couldn't make good mugging robbing one currently?
Quote from: Harmless on April 08, 2013, 11:47:16 AM
I like the idea of merchants having more to fear, but having to hold on to a ticket at all times feels kind of lame. It's like a bag of jew gold a la Cartman from Southpark -- not kewl.
Nenyuki tellers should be smart enough to know who you are without you needing to provide a ticket; when the ragamuffin rinthi suddenly shows with a ticket and withdraws ten thousand chips I would feel the immersion dissolving all around me when the teller hands the money over.
Bank robberies, on the other hand, would be awesome.
I'm not sure that Nenyuki tellers should be smart enough to recognize every single person in the Known that puts sid in the bank on sight without any further identifying information. I could be wrong...
I'm open to other ideas.
Quote from: Desertman on April 08, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
Nenyuk is so kind and generous they will even guard it for you without fail for free.
I'm pretty sure they do this because a great number of their clients die with money in the bank. Nenyuk has to be the richest clan in all of Zalanthas.
Another way to approach this is think less of disempowering rich merchants, empowering not-so rich merchants, etc, and more of "how do we make more sids available to the poor and stupid?"
Something I've always hated is how little the spice demand is in Allanak. In my mind, it's unrealistic how little spice is illegally sold in 'Nak. Now, I understand people not wanting to get addicted to spice for IC reasons, or simply for the OOC reason of not wanting to deal with the hassle of plots with the Arm of the Dragon... but every little NPC trolling around the street has absolutely no interest in spice, either? Doubt it.
If there was a way to sell spice "southside" for rinthers, that could really be a boon for the aspiring crook, add a whole new scale of profiteering to smuggling, create new plots, maybe becoming a fun new "minigame."
Edit: Well, in general I feel like spice could be "fixed" in some way to add to the economy, but I'm not sure exactly what that is.
Quote from: Desertman on April 08, 2013, 11:48:49 AM
Quote from: Harmless on April 08, 2013, 11:47:16 AM
I like the idea of merchants having more to fear, but having to hold on to a ticket at all times feels kind of lame. It's like a bag of jew gold a la Cartman from Southpark -- not kewl.
Nenyuki tellers should be smart enough to know who you are without you needing to provide a ticket; when the ragamuffin rinthi suddenly shows with a ticket and withdraws ten thousand chips I would feel the immersion dissolving all around me when the teller hands the money over.
Bank robberies, on the other hand, would be awesome.
I'm not sure that Nenyuki tellers should be smart enough to recognize every single person in the Known that puts sid in the bank on sight without any further identifying information. I could be wrong...
I'm open to other ideas.
The way the bank of Nenyuk is handled has always struck me as a more OOC concept than an IC reality.
OOCly: The players need a place to put money so they can spend less time hoarding/managing/safeguarding their pile of coins and more time playing the game. The idea of going through administrative processes of identification, account purchase and set up, etc, is boring, and too much like real life paperwork to be interesting to most players. I know the idea of being forced to maintain a bank account in Armageddon is uninteresting, to me at least.
ICly: Nenyuki clerks probably have a much more rigorous identity/paperwork system in place takes place virtually. Also, their banks are not Scrooge Mcduck's money vault - If Malik Kadius dies to a gith on an unfortunate caravan RPT, Nenyuk will not simply absorb Malik's 30,000 coins and refuse to give them back to Kadius, even though this is what we see happen as players. Much like real banks, a lot of the money is most likely imaginary. We simply don't see any of this, because Nenyuk's bank script is an OOC convenience to players.
Anyway, if I want to play a suspicious Red Stormer who doesn't believe in corporations and stuffs their mattress with obsidian coins, I can - but please don't make me play this role.
Quote from: LauraMars on April 08, 2013, 12:14:21 PM
Also, their banks are not Scrooge Mcduck's money vault - If Malik Kadius dies to a gith on an unfortunate caravan RPT, Nenyuk will not simply absorb Malik's 30,000 coins and refuse to give them back to Kadius, even though this is what we see happen as players.
Kadians, and other VIPs, likely have their coins defaulted to the proper accounts (at a fee), but you better believe Joe Nobody's wealth probably won't transfer to their random bastard heir.
Quote from: LauraMars on April 08, 2013, 12:14:21 PM
Anyway, if I want to play a suspicious Red Stormer who doesn't believe in corporations and stuffs their mattress with obsidian coins, I can - but please don't make me play this role.
I thought that was the only way you can play in Red Storm ... :D
Quote from: Harmless on April 08, 2013, 11:55:17 AM
Edit: Well, in general I feel like spice could be "fixed" in some way to add to the economy, but I'm not sure exactly what that is.
Have NPC in the 'rinth that buys and sells spice, and also runs out of it...when it's out. I don't think this could be a transaction that could realistically take place 'southside', even if it was intended for sale in the 'rinth. Having it in the alleys seems right, a bolshy smuggler should have to walk into the ghetto to unload his spice.
Like Leo in Blood Diamond. <3
I was just having this discussion the other day actually. (About spice.)
In general the majority of the playerbase will not make purchases that do not in some way further their ability to "win the game". A lot of people will, but from what I have observed, most people just want to win.
The key to getting the playerbase to do something is to give them an OOC incentive of some nature beyong the rewards of "good roleplay" that will tempt them to participate in said activity.
I've always been of the opinion that certain types of spice should lend more of an "incentive" to be used in certain situations than they currently do. You create enough of an incentive, people will buy it for reasons beyond "this pc happens to be a spicer". I would also like to see addiction come about more easily/have more negative consequences to not keeping your addiction fed.
You must create the OOC incentive in order to see a meaningful IC change in my experience.
Oh would definitely be cool to see everyday items wear out rather than just armor and rather than Kar from fighting. Gloves and tools from crafting, shoes and clothes from just being worn and walked in, even silks. I quite dislike that I buy stuff and it just lasts forever. I don't want to not keep buying stuff, I want to contribute to the economy, but that can also end up with hoarding.
Give me a reason to throw shit out!
There are plenty of coded incentives to buying and using spice.
I think wearing stuff out should help the most. It's more realistic and it can help with the encon of the game.
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 01:33:08 PM
There are plenty of coded incentives to buying and using spice.
I understand and respect your opinion.
However, I am of the opinion that if this were the case, we wouldn't be entertaining a conversation regarding the concept that spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be.
Quote from: Barsook on April 08, 2013, 01:35:57 PM
I think wearing stuff out should help the most. It's more realistic and it can help with the encon of the game.
I like this too.
I am also not opposed to certain materials acting more like their earthly counterparts.
For example, I would like to see pure obsidian weapons be much more prone to shattering and thus replacement.
Quote from: Desertman on April 08, 2013, 01:38:34 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 01:33:08 PM
There are plenty of coded incentives to buying and using spice.
I understand and respect your opinion.
However, I am of the opinion that if this were the case, we wouldn't be entertaining a conversation regarding the concept that spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be.
I think the conversation points were this:
"there's a low demand in Allanak for something that is illegal in Allanak" or "I don't see that many people in Allanak showing me their spice habit, which--by the way--is illegal" or "spice should be something I can hawk to NPCs in Allanak or the rinth"
not
"spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be"
You can make a living as a spice grebber without PC involvement. It's not quite shit for pay, but it won't make you 'sid hand over fist, either.
You can make a living selling processed or unprocessed spice illegally or legally, but you're going to be doing that with PCs for the most part.
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 01:49:59 PM
Quote from: Desertman on April 08, 2013, 01:38:34 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 01:33:08 PM
There are plenty of coded incentives to buying and using spice.
I understand and respect your opinion.
However, I am of the opinion that if this were the case, we wouldn't be entertaining a conversation regarding the concept that spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be.
I think the conversation points were this:
"there's a low demand in Allanak for something that is illegal in Allanak" or "I don't see that many people in Allanak showing me their spice habit, which--by the way--is illegal" or "spice should be something I can hawk to NPCs in Allanak or the rinth"
not
"spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be"
You can make a living as a spice grebber without PC involvement. It's not quite shit for pay, but it won't make you 'sid hand over fist, either.
You can make a living selling processed or unprocessed spice illegally or legally, but you're going to be doing that with PCs for the most part.
Ahh, I see what you mean.
In that case, that isn't the conversation I am having.
I am still of the opinion that spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be, inside or outside of Allanak. I am also still of the opinion that my suggestion would resolve some of the previous points listed in the conversation I wasn't necessarily directly addressing, but appear to have addressed in the peripheral.
Lack of in-game or IC knowledge (or the use of that knowledge or product) doesn't necessarily lead to a lack of incentive to use. The incentive is there and can be discovered in-game or IC or what-have-you.
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 02:22:26 PM
Lack of in-game or IC knowledge (or the use of that knowledge or product) doesn't necessarily lead to a lack of incentive to use. The incentive is there and can be discovered in-game or IC or what-have-you.
I am/was aware of said incentive. I think there is some confusion. I'm not in favor of "adding" an incentive, as though I thought there wasn't one, I am in favor of "adjusting" said incentive that already exists.
I get where you are coming from.
I like the idea of tools wearing out and a junk item buyer. I do not like the idea of clothes wearing out. I have seen this implemented on another game and it really didn't contribute much to the free circulation of money and just wound up being an un-fun hassle and making everyone poorer.
I think clothes wearing out would be entirely Zalanthan...you wouldn't have to buy new clothes, you would just have to wear old battered clothes, which makes sense if you are too poor to buy new clothes. Currently it's pretty unrealistic. Clothes just last forever.
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 06:02:41 PM
I think clothes wearing out would be entirely Zalanthan...you wouldn't have to buy new clothes, you would just have to wear old battered clothes, which makes sense if you are too poor to buy new clothes. Currently it's pretty unrealistic. Clothes just last forever.
I think clothes wearing out is pretty unrealistic. Armor wearing out, makes sense. Clothes, not so much. My mother still has, wears regularly, and fits into, clothes she had 20 years ago that aren't so much as faded. I know, 20 years is a long time, but I played the same mud as Erythil, and the code that made clothing wear out was just awful.
The only thing I would approve of on that would be if they wore out if you went and got them cut up or just plain put them through hell.
It's been said several times before that nobles and the people with mad sid who should be wearing all the silks and fashions are generally expected to put their funds toward funding plots. How is making their fancy silks wear out quicker going to affect that?
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 06:02:41 PM
I think clothes wearing out would be entirely Zalanthan...you wouldn't have to buy new clothes, you would just have to wear old battered clothes, which makes sense if you are too poor to buy new clothes. Currently it's pretty unrealistic. Clothes just last forever.
They do get stained and worn out. but it's not easy. I've actually had staff do it to mess with my Kadian I played. it was fun rp.
But they don't wear out all the way to rags.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 08, 2013, 06:10:57 PM
I think clothes wearing out is pretty unrealistic. Armor wearing out, makes sense. Clothes, not so much. My mother still has, wears regularly, and fits into, clothes she had 20 years ago that aren't so much as faded.
Does she wear the same outfit every day like most Zalanthans? Or keep them in a hot, unsanitary world, stuffed in a chest? Clothes get worn through, holes in, torn, stained etc...all the time, in my world anyway. :/
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 08, 2013, 06:10:57 PM
It's been said several times before that nobles and the people with mad sid who should be wearing all the silks and fashions are generally expected to put their funds toward funding plots. How is making their fancy silks wear out quicker going to affect that?
Nobles are too poor anyway, poor nobles. :(
Look, let's come at this from another angle. Is it fun? I really don't see this adding to anyone's sense of fun. There's already code for clothes to get bloody, permanently stained, permanently scorched, tattered, etc. I've had it happen even to upper class characters. It might be realistic, but I don't think it would improve anyone's gameplay experience.
The tools wearing out I support because it would make toolmaking an actually valuable skill.
Quote from: Erythil on April 08, 2013, 06:22:21 PM
Look, let's come at this from another angle. Is it fun? I really don't see this adding to anyone's sense of fun. There's already code for clothes to get bloody, permanently stained, permanently scorched, tattered, etc. I've had it happen even to upper class characters. It might be realistic, but I don't think it would improve anyone's gameplay experience.
Yes, it would be fun because it gives more reason to roleplay a poor person if there is another reason behind it. I would like to see more PC beggers.
(I think we have derailed this topic...)
Yeah, I think it would add to the experience. Genuinely. Those rich indie characters...why are they so rich? Because they have nothing to spend their money on and they have no room for anything else in their apartments.You set yourself up once with a lot of things, and then you never need to buy them again. Make poor people look poor. Stop the indies in the 'middle' from getting stupid rich by giving them a reason to keep spending. Let nobles and GMH family members be the only one who can afford a clean change of silks for every day.
I wanna see more dirty clothes, more tattered clothes. That crafter with the silk dress who got fired from Kadius and has been sleeping in the slums at the back of the Gaj in her silks every day...should now be wearing tattered silk.
If it happens too quickly, sure it would just be irritating, but the clothes would still be wearable, they'd just look more appropriate for your station. It adds flavor. And grit.
I guess I'll just have to politely disagree. I don't think beggar is a fun role, personally -- it seems like the sort of thing that might be good for occassional flavor but would eventually grow oppressive. People are roleplaying for escapism, at a certain level, after all, and I think the core reason the harsh environment of armageddon is appealing is because beating the odds is rewarding. If you make it too harsh I think you just run the risk of making it onerous and burdensome.
Personally I don't see why people dislike the success of independent merchants so much. The deck is already stacked pretty high against them in a lot of ways.
On that game I played that introduced item decay code, the admins were constantly recalibrating all of the code for commerce in a constant effort to try and make it more difficult to get rich. People always found a way to game the system, but it just progressively made the process of earning wealth less fun, and the way to do so more obscure, in effect just further concentrating the wealth and power in the hands of those willing to twink.
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 06:30:30 PM
Yeah, I think it would add to the experience. Genuinely. Those rich indie characters...why are they so rich? Because they have nothing to spend their money on and they have no room for anything else in their apartments.You set yourself up once with a lot of things, and then you never need to buy them again. Make poor people look poor. Stop the indies in the 'middle' from getting stupid rich by giving them a reason to keep spending. Let nobles and GMH family members be the only one who can afford a clean change of silks for every day.
I wanna see more dirty clothes, more tattered clothes. That crafter with the silk dress who got fired from Kadius and has been sleeping in the slums at the back of the Gaj in her silks every day...should now be wearing tattered silk.
If it happens too quickly, sure it would just be irritating, but the clothes would still be wearable, they'd just look more appropriate for your station. It adds flavor. And grit.
The problem here is:
Nobles and many gmh pcs... CAN'T ACTUALLY AFFORD THAT in many cases. And this will only make it worse.
The people who have all the extra sid though, they will be able to.
Tools wearing out, armor and weapons wearing out quicker, I see all of that. But I think the clothing code is fine as it is.
Quote from: Nyr on April 07, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
We do want there to be room for independent crafters, merchants, and independent organizations. With that said, that should not be at detriment to existing clans. We will be reviewing situations with independents, but probably not in this direction. If anything, there are a handful of indie crafters/merchants that make too much money without the social and political cajones (and RP) to back that up.
I think your understanding is simplistic. I think those handful of indie crafters/merchants are the
only people who can make consistent amounts of coin.
As it stands, the goal of any PC seller is to find the magic set of goods that will empty a merchant's coffers in one go. No matter what tweaks you make to the system, that will always be the goal, to get as much profit from an individual NPC merchant as possible, and the only significant factor there is base coin in inventory. A few players will always be well-positioned to empty an NPC merchant when their coin is plentiful, and those players will always look exorbitantly rich.
So long as you try to lock off NPC coffers with increasingly obscure combinations of goods, there will always be a player who finds a combination that will allow them to empty a merchant's coffers in one go. So long as each NPC merchant is a lock with a key of a certain combination of goods, a player will always play that game and, "win." This system does not distribute merchant coin among many PC buyers.
And the number of players who can win, while not a fixed number for any given number of circumstances, is fairly limited.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 08, 2013, 06:42:54 PM
Nobles and many gmh pcs... CAN'T ACTUALLY AFFORD THAT in many cases.
That's a completely separate issue and discussion. I'm not trying to upset anyone. I just think -I- find it too easy to look prim and proper. I also think that if you degrade clothing you automatically open the opportunity for more trade and commerce...which was the point of this thread. More buying and selling.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 08, 2013, 06:10:57 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 06:02:41 PM
I think clothes wearing out would be entirely Zalanthan...you wouldn't have to buy new clothes, you would just have to wear old battered clothes, which makes sense if you are too poor to buy new clothes. Currently it's pretty unrealistic. Clothes just last forever.
I think clothes wearing out is pretty unrealistic. Armor wearing out, makes sense. Clothes, not so much. My mother still has, wears regularly, and fits into, clothes she had 20 years ago that aren't so much as faded. I know, 20 years is a long time, but I played the same mud as Erythil, and the code that made clothing wear out was just awful.
The only thing I would approve of on that would be if they wore out if you went and got them cut up or just plain put them through hell.
It's been said several times before that nobles and the people with mad sid who should be wearing all the silks and fashions are generally expected to put their funds toward funding plots. How is making their fancy silks wear out quicker going to affect that?
Your mother also has regular access to a washing machine and a drycleaner, closet poles with hangers, mothballs, and doesn't spend most of her time walking around in sandstorms with no underwear. Your mother also *probably* doesn't wear the same outfit for a month before changing, without having bathed during that 28-day period.
Zalanthas isn't realistic. Be thankful for that.
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 06:57:39 PM
That's a completely separate issue and discussion. I'm not trying to upset anyone. I just think -I- find it too easy to look prim and proper. I also think that if you degrade clothing you automatically open the opportunity for more trade and commerce...which was the point of this thread. More buying and selling.
+1
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 08, 2013, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Nyr on April 07, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
We do want there to be room for independent crafters, merchants, and independent organizations. With that said, that should not be at detriment to existing clans. We will be reviewing situations with independents, but probably not in this direction. If anything, there are a handful of indie crafters/merchants that make too much money without the social and political cajones (and RP) to back that up.
I think your understanding is simplistic. I think those handful of indie crafters/merchants are the only people who can make consistent amounts of coin.
As it stands, the goal of any PC seller is to find the magic set of goods that will empty a merchant's coffers in one go. No matter what tweaks you make to the system, that will always be the goal, to get as much profit from an individual NPC merchant as possible, and the only significant factor there is base coin in inventory. A few players will always be well-positioned to empty an NPC merchant when their coin is plentiful, and those players will always look exorbitantly rich.
So long as you try to lock off NPC coffers with increasingly obscure combinations of goods, there will always be a player who finds a combination that will allow them to empty a merchant's coffers in one go. So long as each NPC merchant is a lock with a key of a certain combination of goods, a player will always play that game and, "win." This system does not distribute merchant coin among many PC buyers.
And the number of players who can win, while not a fixed number for any given number of circumstances, is fairly limited.
This is why I would love to see a totally different approach to the NPC merchant situation. I've posted about it previously but -
Right now, there's a 5-per-item limit on what the NPC will buy. Once he's purchased 5 of something, he won't buy anymore, until there's only 4 of that something.
I think instead, it should be that the NPC won't buy more than 5 of something *from each PC.* So Amos the merchant can sell 5 items to Stumpy the Swordseller, and then he can't sell anything more to that NPC for another RL week. If Stumpy has purchased 50 green-handled bone swords in total, then that's what he's bought in total. Oftentimes, a given NPC will have "many" of something to sell, even if it's not his clan's specialty. Consider the various food npcs who sell many of all kinds of stuff, in unlimited supply. Why then, do they only take 5 of each thing from PCs, if they have thousands of OTHER things - that they probably got from VNPCs? How come the VNPCs don't have a 5-per-item limit? Why? Because that's the way it was coded. It doesn't have to be coded that way, and it seems pretty arbitrary to be coded that way. So my suggestion is to set it up otherwise, for a less arbitrary reason: to allow ALL characters, no matter what time of day they play, no matter who gets there first, the opportunity to earn sids from NPCs.
It's frustrating as hell to be someone who can acquire stuff - usually from foraging, and have to carry around the same few items for many RL weeks in the hopes that you care the lucky contestant to show up JUST when that NPC a) doesn't already have 5, and b) has the sids to pay for it.
Many of these items are things that PCs just plain don't want to buy. So you're expected to carry them around - and how about in 3 days, when I acquire 3 more interesting things that I know that no PCs want to buy, but an NPC would if they didn't already have 5 and had the sids to pay? Now I have 6 different things in my pack. Hopefully they're not too heavy, because if they are I"l have to just give one of them away, or junk it. I might have just one log, one studded collar, one head-sized chunk of alabaster, one spear, one sandcloth facewrap, and one bandage. But if I can't ever find anyone who wants to buy any of these things, I could very easily be stuck at the bar, not moving, not being able to afford anything to eat or drink, and not having enough strength to go out and get more stuff, all because I can't find an NPC who doesn't already have 5 of each, or the sids to pay for more.
While we're at it, please do away with that "I am closed" script, it's nothing but annoying.
A better solution would be to switch out the NPC desc if you absolutely had to give those shopkeepers lives, unlike say, Tarkon, or Clint.
Quote from: Delirium on April 08, 2013, 07:12:30 PM
While we're at it, please do away with that "I am closed" script, it's nothing but annoying.
A better solution would be to switch out the NPC desc if you absolutely had to give those shopkeepers lives, unlike say, Tarkon, or Clint.
+1
Another idea, similar to my idea in the above post:
Allow all characters to sell up to 10 items total per NPC merchant per week - but no more than 2 of any given item.
So you can sell 2 logs, 2 facewraps, 2 arrows, 2 sapphires, 2 diamonds to the NPC junk-shop owner - and then you're done selling to that specific NPC until 7 days from now. You'd have to include timers into the code to accommodate people who aren't selling all 10 items in the same visit - so if someone sold 2 things 4 days ago, and 8 things today, then he's got a total of 10 items and can't sell anymore - but in 3 more days, he'll be able to sell 2 more items because the first 2 of those 10 items were from 4 days ago - and 4+3 = a week.
Edited to clarify: I mean 7 REAL days, not 7 game days.
That would be better, actually. I dig it
Higher caps on lower value stuff. Nothing more annoying than only being able to sell 5 twigs for 1np each.
Quote from: Delirium on April 08, 2013, 07:12:30 PM
While we're at it, please do away with that "I am closed" script, it's nothing but annoying.
A better solution would be to switch out the NPC desc if you absolutely had to give those shopkeepers lives, unlike say, Tarkon, or Clint.
Agreed. Especially when you can go to the same clans shop, one room over, and they are open.
It's like "WTF?"
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 07:25:18 PM
Higher caps on lower value stuff. Nothing more annoying than only being able to sell 5 twigs for 1np each.
That too.
Here's my idea :
Create a list of generic shopkeeper NPCs representing the various traveling cultures of the Known World. At least 15 for each space.
Create a list of shopkeeper "personalities," consisting of stocks and an associated list of items they will buy. Try to keep these related so players can know what to sell. At least 20 are advised.
Designate a generic bazaar space in each city of at least 6x6 rooms. Every three or four days, populate this space with at least 20 shopkeepers with personalities chosen at random from the list, and assign each a random amount of coin (minimum and maximum values are advised).
Red Sun Commons and the Bazaar of Allanak are already suitable for this kind of use.
The best thing here is you can use current shopkeeper mechanics. Rather than making values more obscure, you add random factors that force players to do their footwork when selling off their goods, and there is a good chance they will be able to sell off their goods if they do their footwork. It ain't a bad way to go about things.
Plus invite PC's to join the gathering and set down their own rugs! Full circle.
I'd like to see the armor repair skill changed to a general "repair" skill, that worked in conjunction with crafting skills.
Take out NPC tailor ability to repair damage to items up to full, and instead only let them repair to like 80% of current maximum.
Armor would damage like it does currently, except rather than have to hit a % of being damaged, every time it is damaged there is a small chance that the maximum is lowered (ie permanently damaged). Take the current way permanent damage is displayed out, add to assess -v with however many (5?) different states. The more damaged something is, the higher this chance. Armorcrafting + repair skill to repair, up to the current maximum.
Clothing would damage when cleaned for blood, sweat or mud. Small chance of permanent damage. Clothworking + repair skill to repair it, up to the current maximum.
Weapons would damage in combat. Very small chance to damage, small chance when that happens to inflict permanent damage. Strength increases chance, damaged items break easier. Whichever relevant weapon craft skill + repair to fix.
I like the idea of stuff wearing out, too, but it shouldn't be to the OOC inconvenience of the players. I'm not sure there's a way to do one without the other. Personally, I love it when my clothes become tattered in game, and there are legitimate ways this can happen, but I'm not sure how you'd code clothes falling apart due to homelessness.
I guess I'd rather see food start rotting before silks start wearing out, but that really is an entire other thread.
Quote from: Barsook on April 08, 2013, 07:14:58 PM
Quote from: Delirium on April 08, 2013, 07:12:30 PM
While we're at it, please do away with that "I am closed" script, it's nothing but annoying.
A better solution would be to switch out the NPC desc if you absolutely had to give those shopkeepers lives, unlike say, Tarkon, or Clint.
+1
Aaaaand this.
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 07:52:29 PM
Plus invite PC's to join the gathering and set down their own rugs! Full circle.
Scheduling is everything.
Quote from: Maso on April 08, 2013, 06:30:30 PM
Yeah, I think it would add to the experience. Genuinely. Those rich indie characters...why are they so rich? Because they have nothing to spend their money on and they have no room for anything else in their apartments.You set yourself up once with a lot of things, and then you never need to buy them again. Make poor people look poor. Stop the indies in the 'middle' from getting stupid rich by giving them a reason to keep spending. Let nobles and GMH family members be the only one who can afford a clean change of silks for every day.
I wanna see more dirty clothes, more tattered clothes. That crafter with the silk dress who got fired from Kadius and has been sleeping in the slums at the back of the Gaj in her silks every day...should now be wearing tattered silk.
If it happens too quickly, sure it would just be irritating, but the clothes would still be wearable, they'd just look more appropriate for your station. It adds flavor. And grit.
It'll also allow the armor repair skill to be used more often. I'd be happy with clothes getting dirty from day to day use, too. It'll help separate those rich enough to have nice clothes, and those rich enough to have nice clothes and keep them nice.
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 08, 2013, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Nyr on April 07, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
We do want there to be room for independent crafters, merchants, and independent organizations. With that said, that should not be at detriment to existing clans. We will be reviewing situations with independents, but probably not in this direction. If anything, there are a handful of indie crafters/merchants that make too much money without the social and political cajones (and RP) to back that up.
I think your understanding is simplistic. I think those handful of indie crafters/merchants are the only people who can make consistent amounts of coin.
Well, you're close to right, but not quite. We do have tools to identify that, which is why I said what I said (there are a handful that make too much money without the social and political stuff to back it up). Everyone else is scattered in enough of a range that I don't see cause for alarm.
There are valid points here--if one learns how the system works and exploits that to a great extent (and I would say that it
is exploitation in most cases--people just hoarding things and selling them and crafting things and selling them solely to make money for some reason that seems vague to observing staff), some people will end up making that particular "part" of the game (selling to NPCs) more difficult for other PCs that want to dabble in it. Those few that abuse that system and flaunt their indie wealth by hogging more than their share of apartments and spend their idle time spamcrafting into the wee hours of the morning to eke out sales all the day (while you, a much better roleplayer, can barely find a place to sell your single crafted chest) can just plain piss you off. Here you are trying to eke out a living with your PC playing a concept that you enjoy...and this asshole (whom you assume is there, you know it 'cause you see them out there being a jerk, and if they're doing it and you see them, well, there have to be others) is just piddling away.
So these few people can and (as far as we can tell based on experience and review) do exist. They exist in other areas, too, and we put restrictions on them. There's people that abuse the roleplay around getting hurt--you've seen their PCs here and there sleeping off a completely critical wound out in the field, not RPing it, and then you see them popping up about 5-10 minutes later to say "im okay sarge, put me back in the front." There's something we can do in those cases, and we have taken action to implement it so that they can't simply ignore wounds in the future. We don't put it on every PC because the majority of players are handling their roleplay just fine.
Maybe we do need to step in and restrict what these few folks are doing; we can look at that and see if a coded/scripted restriction on a few is better than an overhaul or revamp for all. There are also a couple of automatic jobs (just two of them that I can see) that could use an updated quota; that is more a matter of having time and resources to code an update than the desire to do so. Still, we're monitoring all of those automated jobs, we know who is using them and who is not. There are some other economic-based of the game that could use a look by staff as well.
In the interim, though...would it kill you to not make as much money as you or your PC desires by selling crafted stuff to NPCs? That's what it looks like this is boiling down to. You can make money in various ways in Zalanthas and only one of those ways is to sell crafted stuff to NPCs; there are many other ways to make 'sid in Zalanthas without worrying about quotas in shops or quotas with regards to a certain script or two. You can't buy everything you want whenever you want to; you can't sell everything you want whenever you want to.
Lastly, building hundreds of new NPCs and hundreds of new shop files is definitely
not the solution for shops--holy cow! :o
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
...We do have tools to identify that...
(http://www.egotripland.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/ockwell_Somebody_Watching_2.jpg)
+1 to pretty much everything Nyr said.
On the clothing issue, I think it would be neat if the clothes never totally wore out, but over time while beign worn they eventually became 'worn' and then 'ragged'. I wouldn't mind seeing commoners wandering around in worn shirts and ragged shoes, after all.
I'd like to see all clothing classed as really lousy armor. That way, when we get whacked with a sharp stick, that nice silk shirt gets damaged. No more brawling in your nice clothes!
(Or we could just not brawl in our nice clothes?)
Quote from: Morrolan on April 09, 2013, 12:15:03 AM
I'd like to see all clothing classed as really lousy armor. That way, when we get whacked with a sharp stick, that nice silk shirt gets damaged. No more brawling in your nice clothes!
(Or we could just not brawl in our nice clothes?)
remove frilly.silk.shirt (tearing it off over head) [throwing it down at %dude feet in challenge]
say (Bellowing) It's on!
-----
I actually like this idea.
Quote from: Lizzie on April 08, 2013, 07:10:44 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 08, 2013, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Nyr on April 07, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
We do want there to be room for independent crafters, merchants, and independent organizations. With that said, that should not be at detriment to existing clans. We will be reviewing situations with independents, but probably not in this direction. If anything, there are a handful of indie crafters/merchants that make too much money without the social and political cajones (and RP) to back that up.
I think your understanding is simplistic. I think those handful of indie crafters/merchants are the only people who can make consistent amounts of coin.
As it stands, the goal of any PC seller is to find the magic set of goods that will empty a merchant's coffers in one go. No matter what tweaks you make to the system, that will always be the goal, to get as much profit from an individual NPC merchant as possible, and the only significant factor there is base coin in inventory. A few players will always be well-positioned to empty an NPC merchant when their coin is plentiful, and those players will always look exorbitantly rich.
So long as you try to lock off NPC coffers with increasingly obscure combinations of goods, there will always be a player who finds a combination that will allow them to empty a merchant's coffers in one go. So long as each NPC merchant is a lock with a key of a certain combination of goods, a player will always play that game and, "win." This system does not distribute merchant coin among many PC buyers.
And the number of players who can win, while not a fixed number for any given number of circumstances, is fairly limited.
This is why I would love to see a totally different approach to the NPC merchant situation. I've posted about it previously but -
Right now, there's a 5-per-item limit on what the NPC will buy. Once he's purchased 5 of something, he won't buy anymore, until there's only 4 of that something.
I think instead, it should be that the NPC won't buy more than 5 of something *from each PC.* So Amos the merchant can sell 5 items to Stumpy the Swordseller, and then he can't sell anything more to that NPC for another RL week. If Stumpy has purchased 50 green-handled bone swords in total, then that's what he's bought in total. Oftentimes, a given NPC will have "many" of something to sell, even if it's not his clan's specialty. Consider the various food npcs who sell many of all kinds of stuff, in unlimited supply. Why then, do they only take 5 of each thing from PCs, if they have thousands of OTHER things - that they probably got from VNPCs? How come the VNPCs don't have a 5-per-item limit? Why? Because that's the way it was coded. It doesn't have to be coded that way, and it seems pretty arbitrary to be coded that way. So my suggestion is to set it up otherwise, for a less arbitrary reason: to allow ALL characters, no matter what time of day they play, no matter who gets there first, the opportunity to earn sids from NPCs.
It's frustrating as hell to be someone who can acquire stuff - usually from foraging, and have to carry around the same few items for many RL weeks in the hopes that you care the lucky contestant to show up JUST when that NPC a) doesn't already have 5, and b) has the sids to pay for it.
Many of these items are things that PCs just plain don't want to buy. So you're expected to carry them around - and how about in 3 days, when I acquire 3 more interesting things that I know that no PCs want to buy, but an NPC would if they didn't already have 5 and had the sids to pay? Now I have 6 different things in my pack. Hopefully they're not too heavy, because if they are I"l have to just give one of them away, or junk it. I might have just one log, one studded collar, one head-sized chunk of alabaster, one spear, one sandcloth facewrap, and one bandage. But if I can't ever find anyone who wants to buy any of these things, I could very easily be stuck at the bar, not moving, not being able to afford anything to eat or drink, and not having enough strength to go out and get more stuff, all because I can't find an NPC who doesn't already have 5 of each, or the sids to pay for more.
I've always thought this was how it should work. Added benefit: If we did this we could knock it down to 'each merchant only buys 2 things from each PC' or something restrictive. This won't devastate casual players since they won't on average have more than two of any one thing, but it does put more pressure on rich indie merchants to actually put effort into gathering their riches.
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
In the interim, though...would it kill you to not make as much money as you or your PC desires by selling crafted stuff to NPCs? That's what it looks like this is boiling down to. You can make money in various ways in Zalanthas and only one of those ways is to sell crafted stuff to NPCs; there are many other ways to make 'sid in Zalanthas without worrying about quotas in shops or quotas with regards to a certain script or two. You can't buy everything you want whenever you want to; you can't sell everything you want whenever you want to.
It might be that it's less a case of simply 'making money' and it's more a case of....you roll a character that can craft, you have a history that surrounds them being a crafter (this could apply to hunting too, or whatever...but there's definitely more of a PC market for hunters...anyway)...you actually learn how to craft something decent, start figuring out where materials are and them bam...you can't sell shit. You just want to complete that cycle, the lifestyle and career that you envisioned for your character. If that is your character and that is what they do, and that is what you want them to do...then it's a real frustrating pain in the arse for it not to be viable...when really it makes no sense for it not to be viable. Build it and they will come. If you make good shit you should be able to sell it. One, two, twenty or a hundred, to someone, for some price. Really. But the real problem is that the PC's are like... "Dude, I played a merchant, I know all the sdescs to every item and all that shit is just so boring. Plus I already got 20 jugs yo." and the NPC's are like..."Nah uh...I got five of them already and I can't even shift 'em to VNPC's...yo" and the vNPC's are just like, "Uhh wut? Don't look at me like that...bitch."
It just plain sucks. It's a shitty situation to get into and it's hard to get out of and it can become real old real fast. And then when some shit does roll around or an NPC does sell some shit...you're not thinking...Hey, I should only sell one item to be nice to all the other players. You're thinking...Fuck them, fuck the system, fuck the man, I'm selling my krathdamn fucking jugs. All the of them. Bitches. Because you're pissed. Because you've been carrying them around for 2 RL weeks and your character has had to give a blow job to a Bynner to survive and that wasn't what you wanted for them and now everyone thinks they're a whore.
Then other times it's alright.
Quote from: BleakOne on April 08, 2013, 11:17:33 PM
On the clothing issue, I think it would be neat if the clothes never totally wore out, but over time while beign worn they eventually became 'worn' and then 'ragged'. I wouldn't mind seeing commoners wandering around in worn shirts and ragged shoes, after all.
+1, and that is more realistic.
And to the armor wearing out, I agree with the point of it wearing out so the skill is more useful. Could the skill "tailoring" be used in the same way if we had clothes wearing out.
When armor gets messed up - go to the npc shop.
When clothes/etc. wear out, buy another at the npc shop.
I don't care one way or the other but how does that help pcs?
As far as virtual zillionaires go..the help file on "deposit" says: "Only when Templars observe extraordinary sums do they levy taxes against House Nenyuk--at which time Nenyuk taxes its depositors."
Guess I'm the only one who's been terrified of depositing too much. Although, I have no idea what too much is.
Ideas on sid:
A junk dealer who pays very little but allows you to empty your inventory for something (2 sid/1 sid). Instead of selling, it could actually junk the items.
A broker (board) specifically for buy/sell notices. They could roll off quickly (a RL week or so) so it doesn't get cluttered with ancient notices. This would benefit peak players more than off peak.
The idea is to give the skills more use and therefore the PC's with the skills can sell their services to the ones without the skill, sid can be made that way. Then those PC's can use their sid that they made for other things and it goes around.
But I like your idea on the junk buyer and the board too, but for the board that could be abused.
Quote from: Maso on April 09, 2013, 03:41:41 AM
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
In the interim, though...would it kill you to not make as much money as you or your PC desires by selling crafted stuff to NPCs? That's what it looks like this is boiling down to. You can make money in various ways in Zalanthas and only one of those ways is to sell crafted stuff to NPCs; there are many other ways to make 'sid in Zalanthas without worrying about quotas in shops or quotas with regards to a certain script or two. You can't buy everything you want whenever you want to; you can't sell everything you want whenever you want to.
It might be that it's less a case of simply 'making money' and it's more a case of....
Quote from: paraphrase
...wanting to sell more stuff to NPCs and not being able to do so.
Like I said, it's only one thing you are having an issue with--if you're having an issue. You could join one of the three great merchant houses and craft for them. Get good enough and you can command commissions for masterwork. From PCs, not necessarily from NPCs, but communication with your clan staff and the clan hierarchy in those cases oftentimes will mean cases where you get tossed virtual contracts to do this or that thing.
Crafting stuff and selling it to NPCs is not a PC concept. QuoteIf you make good shit you should be able to sell it. One, two,
Yep, that makes sense to be able to sell one or two good things that you have crafted on your own, sure. A low quantity, because you're one person creating stuff to try and make a living...
Quotetwenty or a hundred, to someone, for some price.
...not a one-person doodad factory trying to be a
Zalanthas.org billionaire. Holy cow! If you crafted twenty or a hundred of something with intention to sell it all of it to an NPC buyer or even a PC buyer, you're part of the problem. The game isn't perfect as far as NPC sales are concerned, but if you're making twenty or a hundred of something,
you're not making good shit. You're mass-producing stuff that no one wants.
And back to the point at hand: crafting stuff and selling it to NPCs is not a PC concept.
Crafting things and selling things in general can be a PC concept, but you'll have to work within what both PCs and the virtual world and NPCs want. Cutting out PCs and the virtual world means you're focusing on one aspect of the world that is coded up to be there as a convenience, not the end-all, be-all for merchant roles.
Nyr I think the point of the last part you responded to, is that people are trying to make -better- shit - but they can't, until they've made a whole ot of 'not so good' shit. A lot of stuff that no one wants. You have to make that stuff, if you want to branch and make better stuff. It's how the code works. And while you're ruining dozens of gortok hides that you paid 2 sids each for, and finally managed to tan 10 of them and STILL haven't branched anything useful yet, you need some place to dump off those 10 hides, so that you have room in your pack for the next 10 hides. You are getting thirsty, you spent all your sids on a mount so you could drag all those hides in bags and packs into the city to dump off at the NPC sellers, but they already have 5 of everything and don't need ANY of your gortok hides. And neither does any PC you've encountered (you can't actually go INTO the bar, because you're stuck with a mount that's packed with 10 tanned gortok hides that you can't carry, and no sids to rent an apartment to drop them off in).
This seems to only happen at the start of a trader's career - once you get past the initial hurdle of only being able to craft newbie-crafting stuff, it gets much easier, and the path to wealth widens by leaps and bounds. But getting to the point of the widening can be insanely frustrating.
I think - if there were some way to segue from "noob crafting stuff that no one wants and the merchants already have 5 of" to "I can make anything and sell anything to anyone at any time and there will always be an NPC willing to shell out 500 sids for SOMETHING I've made and I have three apartments in each city so all my stuff can just sit there til I find a buyer" - a little less painfully, it'd be - better. Subjectively, but that's just my opinion, man.
Also, on the other side of things, I agree that it should be more difficult to be that guy with 3 apartments in each city, hoarding all their sellable stuff just so that they can be "that guy" who spam-sells all the NPC merchants out of their sids. That was why I posted the ideas I posted - the 5 items per PC per RL week, or the 2 of any/each given item per PC per NPC per RL week. It makes it only slightly easier for new crafters/grebbers/PCs in general to get past that new phase, and limits the vastness of wealth that not-new crafters/grebbers/PCs can make exclusively by selling to NPCs.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 08:16:07 AM
but if you're making twenty or a hundred of something, you're not making good shit. You're mass-producing stuff that no one wants.
While I whole-heartedly agree with most of your above post, I do think there should be a few things that are exceptions to this. Such as arrows, as a good example. People go through a lot of arrows, I've seen pc merchants (not my own, I believe one of fantasywriter's back in like 2008) commissioned to make like 100 arrows in one go for a GMH's hunters, for example. It it would be generally understandable of people to do so given how many arrows it can take a less than pro archer to take some things down.
I think probably another would be poison cures in areas that don't have a vendor which sells them in unlimited quantities. There's always a pretty good likelihood that with hundreds of thousands of people in a major city, more than 5 people are gonna get tainted over the course of the 1-1.5 IC months that the game is up for between reboots typically now.
For the most part, I totally agree, but I do wish that there were a way to make room for certain items to bypass the 5-item limit if they were items that would be particularly in-demand in shops as well as with pcs.
Quote from: Lizzie on April 09, 2013, 08:35:25 AM
Nyr I think the point of the last part you responded to, is that people are trying to make -better- shit - but they can't
...easily do so as independent merchants without the resources of a great merchant house. They can, however, join a Great Merchant House and do jobs as indicated. They can, however, junk that "junk" stuff they made that no one wants and get more 'sid by doing one of the various automated jobs around town. They will have to get their hands dirty and work to get their skills up on their own without going broke, but it will involve doing more than "craft 100 doodads; sell 100 dodads; profit."
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 09, 2013, 08:39:31 AM
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 08:16:07 AM
but if you're making twenty or a hundred of something, you're not making good shit. You're mass-producing stuff that no one wants.
While I whole-heartedly agree with most of your above post, I do think there should be a few things that are exceptions to this. Such as arrows, as a good example. People go through a lot of arrows, I've seen pc merchants (not my own, I believe one of fantasywriter's back in like 2008) commissioned to make like 100 arrows in one go for a GMH's hunters, for example. It it would be generally understandable of people to do so given how many arrows it can take a less than pro archer to take some things down.
And you're selling those or creating those for GMH hunters. PCs. So that's already different from selling straight up to NPCs. You're selling something that is in demand.
Quote
I think probably another would be poison cures in areas that don't have a vendor which sells them in unlimited quantities. There's always a pretty good likelihood that with hundreds of thousands of people in a major city, more than 5 people are gonna get tainted over the course of the 1-1.5 IC months that the game is up for between reboots typically now.
And you can definitely sell those to PCs as well. Another good point. And not to belabor the point, but
the virtual economy already sells stuff off automatically. As I said earlier, we can look at very small tweaks to it as we have tweaked it over time anyway, but first we should look at the people exploiting the system.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 08:16:07 AM
...not a one-person doodad factory trying to be a Zalanthas.org billionaire. Holy cow! If you crafted twenty or a hundred of something with intention to sell it all of it to an NPC buyer or even a PC buyer, you're part of the problem.
QFT
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 08:46:11 AM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 09, 2013, 08:39:31 AM
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 08:16:07 AM
but if you're making twenty or a hundred of something, you're not making good shit. You're mass-producing stuff that no one wants.
While I whole-heartedly agree with most of your above post, I do think there should be a few things that are exceptions to this. Such as arrows, as a good example. People go through a lot of arrows, I've seen pc merchants (not my own, I believe one of fantasywriter's back in like 2008) commissioned to make like 100 arrows in one go for a GMH's hunters, for example. It it would be generally understandable of people to do so given how many arrows it can take a less than pro archer to take some things down.
And you're selling those or creating those for GMH hunters. PCs. So that's already different from selling straight up to NPCs. You're selling something that is in demand.
Quote
I think probably another would be poison cures in areas that don't have a vendor which sells them in unlimited quantities. There's always a pretty good likelihood that with hundreds of thousands of people in a major city, more than 5 people are gonna get tainted over the course of the 1-1.5 IC months that the game is up for between reboots typically now.
And you can definitely sell those to PCs as well. Another good point. And not to belabor the point, but the virtual economy already sells stuff off automatically. As I said earlier, we can look at very small tweaks to it as we have tweaked it over time anyway, but first we should look at the people exploiting the system.
Point 1: Touche. I suggested it largely because I feel like the much vaster pc demand would (if such possible tweaks were considered) warrant those being looked at because of how high the demand -can- be.
Point 2: Also a fair point. If I notice that 1 item makes 2 things that are of the same material and quality and (apparent) difficulty which also serve the same purpose (ie, both shirts, both skirts, both jewelry, etc), and one sells to an npc for more than twice the amount of the other, would it be appropriate to assume that I should typo/bug/idea said item from here on out so that staff is aware of the discrepancy? I can't really make said items with my current pc, but if you'd like a few examples, I'd be more than happy to send in a request about it?
We can definitely take a look at it, sure. There may be something else going into the price discrepancy.
This topic took a turn somewhere - and led to a derail about indie merchants making too much money. Obviously the initial post had nothing to do with this subject.
Having said that - and having read what a lot of people as well as Nyr has pointed out - the reality is that the majority of indie merchant PCs making enough money to get by, a few of them get rich, and an even fewer percentage get so rich that they might warrant attention.
This attention might be IC - from merchant houses who are concerned about said merchant infringing on their business or it could be OOC - from Staff who feel that the PC in question is spam-crafting or not RPing well enough to back up his/her crafting activities.
Regardless of this - a merchant trying to get rich is the same as a warrior trying to get buff or a mage trying to get powerful - its what they do - for a living! As long as it's done in good taste and with the requisite RP, then it shouldn't be faulted. Perhaps the merchants are hoarding materials or saving up sids to buy a wagon, or start their own merchant house - who knows?
There's a ton of mentions from ppl in this thread about indie merchants who are inordinately rich - but there's no mention from anyone about warriors who can solo a bahamet or assassins who can OHK a silt horror (just examples to make a point).
Players who put in the time and effort to play successful merchants or grebbers deserve the rewards - they aren't abusing the system in absolute terms IMO. And there's always the option to lower prices on PC to NPC sales if Staff does feel that the money being made by merchants in general is exorbitant at a certain point. Trust me - its not as easy as it sounds - playing a successful merchant is tedious, and requires patience, just as any other guild does on Arm. Anyone who doubts it - needs to make a merchant PC and try it out for themselves!
If a handful of specific players do manage to abuse the mercantile/crafting system on an OOC level, then they should be penalized on a personal level with appropriate demerits to their individual accounts - but I strongly feel that it should not reflect on merchants in general.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 09:07:45 AM
We can definitely take a look at it, sure. There may be something else going into the price discrepancy.
Sent you a request. It's mostly a recent experience I had with a very specific crafting skill that made me notice it. In some places the discrepancy makes sense, in other's it's like... 2 items made from the same thing, same amount of difficulty, selling to the same shop and they more than 2x the amount for one than they do for the other, and the cheaper one you can make enough off of for a day or two worth of doing some of the coded jobs.
Skimming on the various derail issues which have crept up into this thread.....
Durability of craftables as well as tools - this is a classic example of an OOC issue. Whether we all prefer them to be the way they are (indestructible) or whether we want them to wear with usage - is entirely an issue of playability v/s realism. How far do you want to take this issue and which items should be covered by it - will have repercussions on the playability of the game in general. Sure, we could have it so tools wear off....so the end result would be something like...."Hmm ok, my chisel wears out every 20 rocks I carve, so I'll just need to that many more, and factor in the cost of the tools into my selling price."
On the issue of PC merchants being a detriment to merchant houses - the auction house doesn't have to be run by Nenyuk - it could just as well be run by a consortium of GMHs, with each GMH having their own NPC representing their interests and raking in the profits which would otherwise have come to them any way from their shops in the bazaar/marketplace.
On the topic of PC merchants being too rich - the appropriate GMH heads could deal with those individuals ICLY or in specific cases Staff would handle it on an OOC level if warranted. Having said that, an auction house would in no way ADD to a merchant's riches. If a merchant sells to a shop - he/she gets hard cash right away. On the other hand, if the merchant puts the same item on auction, its very likely s/he will not get the same money that the shopkeeper offers. And moreover, if the merchant forgets to collect his dues or recollect the item in time, s/he risks losing it altogether.
An auction house is just ONE idea - there can be many alternate options to achieve the end goals. The basic concept was to overcome the issues I listed in the original post i.e. about NPC merchants having limited coin and NPC merchants not willing to accept more than a certain number of a specific item.
By the way, for you poor bastids still offering grains of spice to the same old spice buyer in Red Storm, note that there's a bulk spice buyer in the bazaar and you really should be using him instead. I'll make sure this is in the helpfile for spice sifting.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 10:44:39 AM
By the way, for you poor bastids still offering grains of spice to the same old spice buyer in Red Storm, note that there's a bulk spice buyer in the bazaar and you really should be using him instead. I'll make sure this is in the helpfile for spice sifting.
I like to try to sell to the old spice buyer first because
<IC information> he makes me smile.
You guys, we're not even allowed to have sandwiches in this game. What makes you think, then, that we're going to get eBay?
Also, merchants making coin is not the equivalent of warriors getting skilled. Merchants getting skilled is the equivalent of warriors getting skilled. For no class is, or should, the act of increasing skills guaranteed to be profitable.
If we get an auction house in game, can I get a app on my phone that allows me to check the status of my items I have up for bid?
(Dat WoW reference.)
/sarcasm
Please no on the auction house concept.
I'm starting to say so to the OP's idea now. I think that's not needed in Arm but the other ideas- yes.
Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile. And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.
Guess I need to update my modus operandi.
Quote from: Twilight on April 09, 2013, 12:04:32 PM
Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile. And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.
Guess I need to update my modus operandi.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich doing this : 0.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich spamcrafting and spamselling in their own city and flooding the market right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
Number of players playing rangers that got rich spamkilling, spamskinning, and spamselling back in their city by flooding the markets right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
You guys don't need an auction house to have an auction. Make your stuff, announce it in bars, and voila. Auction. It's far better to do it all IC.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: Twilight on April 09, 2013, 12:04:32 PM
Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile. And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.
Guess I need to update my modus operandi.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich doing this : 0.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich spamcrafting and spamselling in their own city and flooding the market right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
Number of players playing rangers that got rich spamkilling, spamskinning, and spamselling back in their city by flooding the markets right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/131/399/fry.PNG?1307468855)
I don't want to come right out and say that there's some really suspicious stuff going on based on a few variables (I'd have to dig deeper and get more data), but there are a few people that are using certain commands at an order of magnitude higher than randomly selected players on at the same time (within a very short period of time, at that).
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: Twilight on April 09, 2013, 12:04:32 PM
Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile. And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.
Guess I need to update my modus operandi.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich doing this : 0.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich spamcrafting and spamselling in their own city and flooding the market right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
Number of players playing rangers that got rich spamkilling, spamskinning, and spamselling back in their city by flooding the markets right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
I'm not surprised really. I was more trying to reference that at one point the helpfile did state (and I need to paraphrase here since it is now reworded) that merchants were typically some of the riches characters in the game. But the method it stated at that time also has a high risk/reward, at least for independents.
I wasn't trying to insinuate I was in the game, doing this. Cause I can't talk about what I am in the game, doing :)
Quote from: Twilight on April 09, 2013, 12:39:31 PM
I'm not surprised really. I was more trying to reference that at one point the helpfile did state (and I need to paraphrase here since it is now reworded) that merchants were typically some of the riches characters in the game. But the method it stated at that time also has a high risk/reward, at least for independents.
I wasn't trying to insinuate I was in the game, doing this. Cause I can't talk about what I am in the game, doing :)
It says that now, I think. It's in the helpfile at least or it says as much, I think...learn the prices in a village or city, compiling knowledge of how much stuff really costs, then using that to develop trade routes to make a great deal of money...that sounds kinda cool.
I'm not pointing a finger at you at all--I'm pointing out that the richest merchants in-game seem to be exploiting the system by spamcrafting and flooding the NPC markets rather than doing what is suggested in the helpfile.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 12:34:40 PM
I don't want to come right out and say that there's some really suspicious stuff going on based on a few variables (I'd have to dig deeper and get more data), but there are a few people that are using certain commands at an order of magnitude higher than randomly selected players on at the same time (within a very short period of time, at that).
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1zUx-ASSj1L2vwc9JA9ERMrmj80NP8vUNsviOQoBTRFXqNtxvSg)
Quote from: Sakra on April 09, 2013, 12:22:03 PM
You guys don't need an auction house to have an auction. Make your stuff, announce it in bars, and voila. Auction. It's far better to do it all IC.
Hey yo, Nyr, my main man, it seems staff has really been looking at these economic "opportunities for improvement", and might be tossing around some ideas for making some changes to better the game.
I don't suppose you might want to leak a little bit of the inside info on maybe sort of what could possibly be getting taken into consideration at this time as far as potential updates/changes?
Thx, your one true love, Desertman.
It seems unfair to imply that there are '0' legit merchants! One person shouldn't be able to flood the market of a massive city anyway...
Also, I tried once to do the going to one area, getting stuff and taking it far far away to another place to sell it thing. It didn't go well. My dude rode all the way North (was a big deal for him) and came back with a log and 6 branches to sell in Allanak. Couldn't sell them to any NPC's in Allanak or Red Storm (because they were all at max). Managed to sell two branches to a PC (tried to sell to a LOT of PC's)...It was really pretty fail.
Also...singlehandedly crafting 100 of something is really not that much of a big deal. Have you ever been on Etsy? Or made your own stuff IRL? I'm not talking about making 100 beds...or big things. But a 100 small things - not really that much of a big deal.
Personally, I'd rather be able to sell more stuff, but get considerably less for it (like just enough to break even or whatever). It would just be more satisfying.
It seems an issue that's a bit all over the place...like there are flaws all over. There isn't really one solution. And blaming it on the players for just trying to do their best with whatever scenario seems unfair. It's a vicious cycle anyway. People flood the market because they've had to sit on their stuff for RL weeks because someone else flooded the market last time...and on it goes. I don't want to see it become easier for Indie merchants to make money, but it would be nice to see them be able to complete the intended cycle of their function (buy - make - sell).
The same kind of applies to the 'black silk braies' situation, which is there were a few random items that could make a merchant a bucket load of coin if they sold it to the right person. This was a definite flaw, however the flip side of the coin was that the rest of the stuff they could craft could (/can) only be sold at a loss.
Quote from: Maso on April 09, 2013, 01:44:56 PM
It seems unfair to imply that there are '0' legit merchants! One person shouldn't be able to flood the market of a massive city anyway...
Also, I tried once to do the going to one area, getting stuff and taking it far far away to another place to sell it thing. It didn't go well. My dude rode all the way North (was a big deal for him) and came back with a log and 6 branches to sell in Allanak. Couldn't sell them to any NPC's in Allanak or Red Storm (because they were all at max). Managed to sell two branches to a PC (tried to sell to a LOT of PC's)...It was really pretty fail.
I highly recommend creating your market before you attempt to take advantage of said market.
For example, get someone to order branches and logs from you IG before you travel across the world, risking life and limb, to gather logs and branches hoping to find a buyer after the fact.
I see your point and agree it seems like that would be a pretty easy sale after the fact, but, there isn't really anyone to blame here. If I go kill beetles, and no one wants my beetle shell, maybe I should have got someone to order beetle shells before I went hunting. *shrug*
Quote from: Maso on April 09, 2013, 01:44:56 PM
It seems unfair to imply that there are '0' legit merchants! One person shouldn't be able to flood the market of a massive city anyway...
I didn't say there were 0 legit merchants. I was saying that there are 0 merchants with any appreciable amount of 'sid that got that 'sid by planning trade routes and figuring out pricing and doing commodities/crafted goods trading. And you're right, one person shouldn't be able to flood the market of a massive city anyway, but that could be what is happening, and that in turn could affect all other PCs.
Quote
Also, I tried once to do the going to one area, getting stuff and taking it far far away to another place to sell it thing. It didn't go well. My dude rode all the way North (was a big deal for him) and came back with a log and 6 branches to sell in Allanak. Couldn't sell them to any NPC's in Allanak or Red Storm (because they were all at max). Managed to sell two branches to a PC (tried to sell to a LOT of PC's)...It was really pretty fail.
See above point, and also previous points about clanned people having more opportunities to handle this than not. Additionally, if you just grab a bunch of stuff and take it far away without checking the market (again we're back to looking at not just the NPC market, but the virtual market and the PC market), you're gonna have a bad time.
Quote
Also...singlehandedly crafting 100 of something is really not that much of a big deal. Have you ever been on Etsy? Or made your own stuff IRL? I'm not talking about making 100 beds...or big things. But a 100 small things - not really that much of a big deal.
I'm struggling to thing of one small thing that one could create in real life that could be hand-made, starting from raw materials, created by one person, all using primitive hand tools only, and produced at a breakneck pace in order to have 100 over a short time period...and it not be made out of paper and created with scissors and glue.
Quote
And blaming it on the players for just trying to do their best with whatever scenario seems unfair.
I'm not blaming it on all players, nor am I blaming this entirely on players, as I said we were looking at tweaking the system. I am, however, definitely going to point a finger at the ones that are exploiting it.
I'm not talking about people that make about 20 or even 50 offers vs 5 to 10 barters over 48 hours. I'm talking about people that make about 500 or even 800 offers vs 100 to 200 barters over that same 48 RL hour period. The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame. The ranger I'll have to look at more closely and weigh out exactly how much is being killed/skinned, but it's not looking pretty either.
QuoteIt's a vicious cycle anyway.
When you've got people going beyond roleplay to maxing their IG bank accounts as quickly as possible, you're talking about a vicious cycle for everyone else. Those few are having a blast.
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
Well, you're close to right, but not quite. We do have tools to identify that, which is why I said what I said (there are a handful that make too much money without the social and political stuff to back it up). Everyone else is scattered in enough of a range that I don't see cause for alarm.
There are valid points here--if one learns how the system works and exploits that to a great extent (and I would say that it is exploitation in most cases--people just hoarding things and selling them and crafting things and selling them solely to make money for some reason that seems vague to observing staff), some people will end up making that particular "part" of the game (selling to NPCs) more difficult for other PCs that want to dabble in it. Those few that abuse that system and flaunt their indie wealth by hogging more than their share of apartments and spend their idle time spamcrafting into the wee hours of the morning to eke out sales all the day (while you, a much better roleplayer, can barely find a place to sell your single crafted chest) can just plain piss you off. Here you are trying to eke out a living with your PC playing a concept that you enjoy...and this asshole (whom you assume is there, you know it 'cause you see them out there being a jerk, and if they're doing it and you see them, well, there have to be others) is just piddling away.
The thing is, they aren't really exploiting the system. They are using it as designed. You call it an exploit because it isn't functioning as you want, but you would need to redesign the system to get it to function as such. All you do by adding more restrictions and regulations is make it more complicated to participate, and thus exclude some part of the population from participating.
By the way, getting the coin from the merchants technically counts as social/political support. So any attempts to limit these money-hogs is more akin to spanking a hamster caught in a cage too small for it.
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
Lastly, building hundreds of new NPCs and hundreds of new shop files is definitely not the solution for shops--holy cow! :o
My attempt in my previous post was to liken the relationship between PCs and NPC shops to the modern discussion of password encryption algorithms.
You keep telling people to make their passwords more complicated before they can gain full access, in the hopes of getting less participants at the higher levels, but you also squeeze the amount of people willing to participate at all. What you really need to do is just get a better system that requires more footwork to crack. Because the current system is made to be convenient and facilitative, there will always be someone who will help themselves because people don't like making their lives genuinely complicated.
The only way you can do that is to add more shops, and if you randomize their availability, you add further necessary footwork.
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
In the interim, though...would it kill you to not make as much money as you or your PC desires by selling crafted stuff to NPCs? That's what it looks like this is boiling down to. You can make money in various ways in Zalanthas and only one of those ways is to sell crafted stuff to NPCs; there are many other ways to make 'sid in Zalanthas without worrying about quotas in shops or quotas with regards to a certain script or two. You can't buy everything you want whenever you want to; you can't sell everything you want whenever you want to.
I've done this. It's not fun.
What do you do all the time you're not crafting? Do you go out and buy drinks? At 200 'sids per in-game month, most jobs can't handle more than five or six. Drinking with your friends and, god forbid, buying food from the taverns can drop your coinpurse much faster, leaving you to spend four or five hundred coins in a single RL night of play.
And none of the, "jobs," around town pay out that well.
Worse yet, you have nothing to talk about. You're doing nothing, afterall, so you have no news to report, no new opinions on anything because you haven't experienced anything new. Even if you've been grebbing salt or digging clay all day, it's just been mindless drudgery. Worse yet, mindless drudgery where you have to fear some staff member is going to peer over your shoulder and say you're not RPing enough.
So you have to emote, too? Damn. You want me to teach you what the game world is just so I can justify using the game systems? That sounds less like being a player of a game and more like being a monk.
I can go be a monk in real life if I want. They have support groups for that. It'll be less effort.
Quote from: Barsook on April 09, 2013, 01:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sakra on April 09, 2013, 12:22:03 PM
You guys don't need an auction house to have an auction. Make your stuff, announce it in bars, and voila. Auction. It's far better to do it all IC.
An NPC auctioneer is no less IC than an NPC barkeeper serving drinks or a Salarr NPC merchant selling weapons. If you actually meant "in person" instead of "IC", then I will say that yes, it's far easier to instinctively judge any player action as "better" if translates to an immediate RP scene. However, I would argue that the longevity and 24hr availability of player-managed shopkeeper/NPCs creates a much stronger presence for said PC or clan in the game on a constant basis, and that the NPC or establishment gradually becomes a strong community magnet. The 1+ hour RP scene of selling off some items to the 10+ people logged in and present at the roleplay event is good, and yet that clan presence can still continue after the auction scene, thanks to the continuous IC sales presence and representation through an NPC shopkeeper that is managed by the players.
The idea of a "live" auction and NPC auction do not have to be at odds with each other. I believe player-loaded NPC establishments that represent a person or clan can enhance the amount of live events that revolve around the owners. The automation essentially allows a particular clan to have a constant "low" sales presence that is still powered by PCs despite automation, and then when the PCs are online, they create a "high" presence. The current way it works in Arm is that a clan's PC-driven sales presence is "off" when key PCs are not online (or not nearby), and "on" when those PCs are online or nearby. The automated auction house idea originally proposed at the start of this thread is not something I believe would have a negative impact on RP opportunities.
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 09, 2013, 02:48:18 PM
The thing is, they aren't really exploiting the system. They are using it as designed. You call it an exploit because it isn't functioning as you want, but you would need to redesign the system to get it to function as such. All you do by adding more restrictions and regulations is make it more complicated to participate, and thus exclude some part of the population from participating.
I guess you could use that same argument against people sleeping off critical wounds just after combat and not roleplaying the effects of trauma. "They aren't exploiting the system, they are using it as designed."
We see that as a problem and we are going to address it. I've already said several times that we are looking at tweaking the virtual economy system, but that comes
after reviewing how these people "use the current system as designed."
Quote
By the way, getting the coin from the merchants technically counts as social/political support. So any attempts to limit these money-hogs is more akin to spanking a hamster caught in a cage too small for it.
??? I am trying to get your point here but not quite seeing it.
Quote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
My attempt in my previous post was to liken the relationship between PCs and NPC shops to the modern discussion of password encryption algorithms.
??? Okay...I'm trying to get your point here, but also not quite seeing it.
QuoteQuote from: Nyr on April 08, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
In the interim, though...would it kill you to not make as much money as you or your PC desires by selling crafted stuff to NPCs? That's what it looks like this is boiling down to. You can make money in various ways in Zalanthas and only one of those ways is to sell crafted stuff to NPCs; there are many other ways to make 'sid in Zalanthas without worrying about quotas in shops or quotas with regards to a certain script or two. You can't buy everything you want whenever you want to; you can't sell everything you want whenever you want to.
I've done this. It's not fun.
I'm sorry to hear that. What did you do exactly, and why did you find it not fun? Your examples went off into a theoretical land that seems a bit incredible and unbelievable.
I think live auctions would work better if mastercrafting supported person-specific recipes. As it is, the only way to keep a recipe safe from duplication is to make it one time, or to be a member of a clan and have it be a clan recipe. Otherwise, a person buys it...then replicates it. Whereas it would be much more doable to have effective auctions by tweaking the crafting code, so that a recipe could be linked to a specific character. The PC could then build up a handful of recipes...and have auctions for items only they could make, or even once word gets out, having folks come to them directly for a specific item.
Even better if the system could have a way of eventually making those recipes into public ones at some point after that character dies, rather than having them disappear.
Give templars access to other characters' Nenyuk account info. I think the problem will sort itself out in no time.
On a more serious note, I think it would be helpful to flag items by region, and hit them hard there. For example, gurth shells and silk shirts should be worthless in Tuluk but valueable in Allanak, and vice versa for jozhal skins and stone lanterns. There's a system for this used for certain material types already, but it seems like being able to narrow it down based on geographic origin might be necessary at this point.
QuoteI'm not talking about people that make about 20 or even 50 offers vs 5 to 10 barters over 48 hours. I'm talking about people that make about 500 or even 800 offers vs 100 to 200 barters over that same 48 RL hour period. The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame. The ranger I'll have to look at more closely and weigh out exactly how much is being killed/skinned, but it's not looking pretty either.
o.O
We're not counting PCs that are selling a few things but obsessively bartering until the shopkeeper gives up and kicks them out, right?
Quoteoffer thing 25
I'll buy the thing for 20 coins.
offer thing 24
Let's keep the price at 20, shall we?
offer thing 23
Let's keep the price at 20, shall we?
offer thing 22
The shopkeeper is getting pretty pissed at you, bro.
offer thing 21
Let's keep the price at 20, shall we?
OFFER THING 21
The shopkeeper has punched you in the face. You deserved it.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: Twilight on April 09, 2013, 12:04:32 PM
Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile. And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.
Guess I need to update my modus operandi.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich doing this : 0.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich spamcrafting and spamselling in their own city and flooding the market right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
Number of players playing rangers that got rich spamkilling, spamskinning, and spamselling back in their city by flooding the markets right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
I'll just say that my merchant PC made an incredibly large amount of money working certain trade routes, but there were only 2 trade routes of any reliability that I could discover, and eventually it became apparent that it was too risky for the profit when compared to the money that could be made staying put. I found trade routes a really fun concept and I'd like to see the buy low/sell high gameplay be more developed. This would also have some effect on limiting the astronomical sums that accumulate to indies alone, as they'd have to hire people to escort them, and would also make banditry more profitable, as they'd have to actually have caravans laden with goods. I'd talk specifics about what worked where, but I'm assuming that's information better kept quiet even if we don't think it's working well.
I would like to comment on a few aspects of playing a merchant, which Dalmeth has mentioned in a previous post, and point out a solution that fits in the game world.
First of all, this is the specific quote that got me thinking.
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 09, 2013, 02:48:18 PM
What do you do all the time you're not crafting? Do you go out and buy drinks? At 200 'sids per in-game month, most jobs can't handle more than five or six. Drinking with your friends and, god forbid, buying food from the taverns can drop your coinpurse much faster, leaving you to spend four or five hundred coins in a single RL night of play.
Playing in the city-states, I've been in the popular taverns a lot, and I consider them a major feature in the game. I've seen merchants crafting while sitting at bars, and I think this makes perfect sense in relatively civilized -- and clean -- locales, as you not only get to watch and participate in RP, which makes emotes a reasonable expectation, but it's also incredibly easy to get orders as a merchant, as you showcase your abilities, which can trigger your PC to do cross-world trips for special orders that both make sense IC and earn you some decent coin.
In my opinion, it makes sense that a merchant would hang around heavily-trafficked places, like the vNPCs in the Red Sun Commons do, for example. My mental image of a merchant isn't that of someone who sits in a sound-proof chamber all day, mass-crafting cheap stuff, or dedicating his life to creating masterpieces like they're the next Urist McMoodStricken.
Of course, you shouldn't do cross-world trips unless the order covers the expenses, and still leaves you with a reasonable profit. If Amos from Allanak wants no more than 5 branches from the Grey Forest, maybe to scratch his back with them, then it should be fairly normal to expect plenty of 'sid for such an indulgence. It's just the way Zalanthas works.
As for the issue of money, if you don't have a lot of 'sid from your crafts, you can't realistically indulge in an expensive spiced wine or two each IG night. That is not to say that you won't be able to eventually, when your products have enough quality craftsmanship put into them, and if you really want to, you can just buy that bottle of wine just once, keep it after drinking it's contents, and whenever you want to order it from the bartender, emote it and hold it in your hand, then use it just like any other RP prop. That should also give you the option to use it as an impromptu weapon, but if you don't -want- to, and your are exceptionally cheap, you can just get by with a virtual drink.
The "tdesc", "feel", and "change mood" commands are your friends. This game encourages you to get around coded constraints with RP, which spurs creativity.
In conclusion, hanging around in heavily-traficked but -civilized- areas when crafting, and actively participating in RP with others, is a double-edged sword for aspiring merchant PCs.
Quote from: Erythil on April 09, 2013, 05:29:16 PM
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: Twilight on April 09, 2013, 12:04:32 PM
Hmm, somewhere along the lines they changed the merchant guild helpfile. And here I was, trying to have my merchants buy in bulk in one place, and sell in bulk in a different place, trying to make unhealthy amounts of profit, and be one of the typically richest types of characters in the game.
Guess I need to update my modus operandi.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich doing this : 0.
Number of players playing merchants that got rich spamcrafting and spamselling in their own city and flooding the market right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
Number of players playing rangers that got rich spamkilling, spamskinning, and spamselling back in their city by flooding the markets right after a reboot (and in general, just flooding the markets): a number greater than 0 and less than 5.
I'll just say that my merchant PC made an incredibly large amount of money working certain trade routes, but there were only 2 trade routes of any reliability that I could discover, and eventually it became apparent that it was too risky for the profit when compared to the money that could be made staying put. I found trade routes a really fun concept and I'd like to see the buy low/sell high gameplay be more developed. This would also have some effect on limiting the astronomical sums that accumulate to indies alone, as they'd have to hire people to escort them, and would also make banditry more profitable, as they'd have to actually have caravans laden with goods. I'd talk specifics about what worked where, but I'm assuming that's information better kept quiet even if we don't think it's working well.
This is one of the more exciting ideas.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 03:16:35 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 09, 2013, 02:48:18 PM
By the way, getting the coin from the merchants technically counts as social/political support. So any attempts to limit these money-hogs is more akin to spanking a hamster caught in a cage too small for it.
??? I am trying to get your point here but not quite seeing it.
Basically, he is suggesting that players are supporting the economy by actively being a part of it with the shop code. If this isn't the case, then the shop code is not contributing to the economy, which is no fault of the players. So the point being made is:
the natural contribution to the shops made by players = their natural size (hamster)
the inherent limitations of the shop code to contribute to the player economy = the inadequacy of the cage to meet the hamster's natural size
Therefore, spanking the hamster for being too big for its cage is not going to make the cage any bigger, or the hamster any smaller. They simply are what they are, and the results of combining the two will always be the same.
Players -do- contribute to the PC economy through the shop code. The shops basically serve as a middleman for PC's who don't know each other, don't have playtime crossover etc. In an ideal world things would be being bought and sold frequently with a high turnover to allow for a faster paced economy. IMO.
It is possible to accumulate wealth, occupy more than one apartment, contribute a negligible amount to the game economy, contribute a negligible amount to plots and other players, and simultaneously also create issues with other players in your area using NPC shops by flooding it with your stuff (or spamming up all of your shop-related commands at a rate that is 10 times higher than 95% of other players).
That is what we are seeing and that is what we have an issue with.
So! Items that get tatty and/or broken over time. Requiring those hoarders to spend more to replace them. Buy from the shops that they sell to. Etc etc. Thus they start to contribute to the economy again!
Replace what? The stuff they...crafted...from raw materials they already hoard?
Replace their tools, the things they are wearing etc. Meaning they spend money in shops...which while it wouldn't directly open up 'slots' for other player sales, it puts money back into those shops for others to be able to sell.
Unless they just make those things themselves ;)
While it can be frustrating from time to time, the only thing I'm really prepared to beg for is to do away with the open/closed hours on some of the shops.
It adds far more OOC inconvenience than it does IC realism (and it's clunky at best: you're STANDING RIGHT THERE, now take my sid please).
We are dealing with two things.
1) people exploiting/abusing things as is now
2) tweaks to improve overall
We are looking at item 1 right now.
We will look at item 2 after that. Or maybe in conjunction with that.
Ok?
We might be able to do them in conjunction--just saying that we are definitely looking at both, to be clear. I'm making sure it's also clear that there is such a thing as exploiting/abusing the shop code, just like you can do that to other stuff in the game.
Maybe not an auction house, but a few new in game boards for indie merchants and hunters to announce their needs. If the board deletes any post older than a week by default then you could read it and be assured that the items requested are likely still desired.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 09:17:25 PM
It is possible to accumulate wealth, occupy more than one apartment, contribute a negligible amount to the game economy, contribute a negligible amount to plots and other players, and simultaneously also create issues with other players in your area using NPC shops by flooding it with your stuff (or spamming up all of your shop-related commands at a rate that is 10 times higher than 95% of other players).
That is what we are seeing and that is what we have an issue with.
While I would certainty not endorse or attempt myself to 'flood' shops with massive amounts of goods disrupting other players - as an off-peak player, everything else you just listed is pretty much the only way I can play Arm is as an Indie characters. Are some of those spamming filling shops offpeakers?
I am also really better off playing an Indie character (a number of players basically told me too some years back when I was expressing frustration at not being able to 'link in' with anyone/anything significant) as player numbers are around 10-15 max on my 'peak hours' during the week. 10-15 is actually really good, its the best its been for off-peakers in my experience over the years I have attempted to play Arm and its why I am again trying to stick it out and have a go. But ... when I grab a hunk a stone and I try to sell to NPC shops (which is my only choice) guess what? :P yup no one wants it.
When I take some unused armor/clothing I dont need anymore to NPC shops (which again is my only choice because its cheap and no PC will want it) again I can not find a NPC shop that will buy. Maybe, if I work hard and 'stick it out' and manage to branch some crafts I 'will' actually be able to offer something decent to the few PC's around me but its a long way off, a long hill to climb.
The system as it stands basically forces some of us to do in part some of the very things you have listed that should not be done (which I think people are trying to point out and trying to offer solutions too?), like bulk crafting, apartment sitting and mass selling to NPC shops. Again, I would try not to 'flood' shops, but I hope I have explained the whole hamster wheel -
- Action houses would help players off peak provide items to PC's they would otherwise not meet.
- A cycling bazaar of shop keeps as suggested (while it would be a lot of work for staff) would probably help too.
- A similar 'job offer' board with coded 'collect' would also do the same (most would rather provide goods to players/clans than NPC's).
- Greater rewards for making the travel (and risking the very real dangers) with your goods or materials to a different settlement would assist.
I know you are looking at addressing this at the 'twinkish scale' but please keep this in mind while staff consider changes because if any changes make things more restrictive.... ouch! Essentially, through no fault of mine or the games, I need to rely on the NPC system to fill the gaps and until there are other options I can see the very strong draw for players in my position to spam-fill NPC shops as its the only real way to work on skills/crafts and get by without running out of coin/food/water.
Staff and/or players might be aware of a ton of ways to avoid what I am saying, but even then, I would say its fair to assume that new off peak players wont know - just like I don't know.
If you're not flooding shops with massive amounts of goods, you're not doing what I'm talking about. And I checked, you're clocking in at about a fifteenth of what one of the heavy hitters is doing.
Thanks :D
I should add however, I am rolling a very new PC and relying on the automated jobs quiet heavily which both time consuming and boring (but my choice all the same!). Chances are when I feel a bit more prepared, have read a bit more widely and I am read to be both brave and bold, I would estimate my count there to likely climb from 1/15th to perhaps 7/15ths... ???
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 02:20:07 PM
The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame.
Ahem. Shitty.
Throw them in the arena.
RELEASE THE GAJ!!!!
Quote from: Ravenfeather on April 09, 2013, 11:00:49 PM
offpeak blues
Oh hey you have the same timezone as I do.
I've been noticing this as well though, I have. If I log in during the afternoon in here, all I tend to see is independent rangers/merchants or gemmers. I doubt this is a coincidence. Currently there is very little incentive for an offpeaker to actually go and join a clan, seeing as clans tend not to benefit someone who never actually meets their clanmates. For example, someone who would want to play a bard, a soldier, or a noble house employee, would be left with restrictions on leaving the gates and sometimes even tight schedules to adhere to. This would be fine if there were people to see and things to do on your own in said clan, but for most, it seems like going independent is a lot more preferable.
Something related to increasing trade, but doing so within the gameworld we have as well.
GMH's:
*Have more than one pc in the Merchant family roles. 2-3 at least per house. Sure, some die/store whatever, but the potential is much greater with more of them.
-One, the agents have someone to compete against (internal conflict within GMH's yay).
-Greatly limit what you'll load up for them. Provide them perhaps with greater access to GMH recipes, and require they gather the materials/employ the crafters they'd wish for the orders they want to fill. This will give greater incentive for said agents to hire more people and buy supplies from independents (which I feel should be one of the largest suppliers to the merchant houses)
Give Agent's a higher stipend with which to accomplish these tasks. An independent -should- want to work for the merchant houses 99% of the time, but the reality is that most of them are more profitable outside the constraints of employment. Crafters are usually on hired on to mastercraft, rather than produce a large amount of the goods an agent sells. Typically the raw materials are often only required when it's some special sekrit project (statues/buildings) and comes down to little outside of "get 150 logs, 50 boulders, 20 dead prositutes"
If possible, I'd love to see this from the raw good shopkeeps, as well:
Instead of
"Sorry, I have too many of those already."
"I have too many of those, but I could give you 5 'sid a piece."
*I also make these suggestions from my experience as a merchant house member several years ago, and honestly haven't had a great deal of current interaction with them. So it's possible this is already the case. But at least for the last year it does seem a rare case you might find a merchant house agent, much less conduct trade with the GMH's regularly*
There's really little incentive to join a GMH if your recruit year doesn't provide actual coins for pay. Free food and water and a locker is great, but if you're a ranger, you don't need free food or water, and if you really -need- storage, you can afford a crappy apartment by selling only a few items per RL week to NPC shops. Offering discounts is pointless if you aren't paying your recruits; they can't afford to pay even at a discount if they have zero income.
I don't know if that's changed since I played in a GMH, which wasn't long ago. Or maybe it isn't true for all GMHs. But if it's true, then the incentive to play a rule-breaker, is far more sensible, than playing a rule-abider, in a GMH. As long as the "bosses" of the GMH accept that most of their recruits are going to break the rules in order to afford the discounts they are offered, then it's all good.
I had a few paragraphs written about how it is silly for Rangers to justify joining a House for financial purposes. But, I deleted them.
Basically, we all know an indy Ranger can make a lot more sid if he doesn't join a House. The only reasons to join a House as a Ranger are if you are new and really can't find your own food and water, you want to experience House roleplay, you need House protection for some reason, or the current House agent/family member is handing out massive bonuses that actually make up for the fact you would normally take a huge financial loss joining said House.
(The latter happens often enough in my experience actually.)
My point is that I am for House wages being adjusted for House members to make those jobs more on par with indy wages, and I mostly play indy pc's, so this isn't a case of me pushing my own agenda.
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 11:24:20 PM
If you're not flooding shops with massive amounts of goods, you're not doing what I'm talking about. And I checked, you're clocking in at about a fifteenth of what one of the heavy hitters is doing.
I wonder if you could add a coded restriction to these "heavy hitters" or abusers in some way similar to how you said it's done to players who don't realistically roleplay their injuries?
Maybe take away their ability to sell items to NPC shopkeepers? Forcing them to interact and sell to the Pc population? Failing that, maybe for flooding the markets their products (and only theirs, the abuser's) lose significant value to reflect the possibility that nobody is actually buying their bulk?
As much as it stinks from a realism sense, it might be worth considering some kind of individual limit on how many sales you can make to NPC vendors in a given time frame. maybe something like 50 coins per RL day (that accumulates up to something like 500) and once you've sold goods that add up to that amount all the vendors stop dealing with you or start offering worse and worse payouts.
Maybe scaled decreasing gains for selling the same item repeatedly?
You sell one pair of sandcloth gloves, the merchant gives you 40 coins.
You sell a second pair, well he already has a pair he hasn't moved, so, he will give you 30 coins.
A third pair, well shit, the man already has two pairs of them, but he will give you 20 coins anyways.
So on and so forth.
Make it so that selling massive amounts of the same items to the same merchant suddenly becomes much less profitable.
That is just putting a bandaid on the spurting severed artery though. The main issue in my opinion is that a single individual can obtain massive amounts of wealth and that is not a liability in any way to them because that wealth can't be touched by anyone who might do them harm. Why go after them for their massive wealth, even when they have no protection at all as a loner, because you know you can't touch it anyways, no matter what. *shrug*
Make that massive wealth a real liability and suddenly they are spending money to keep that money, which spreads out that wealth, leads to interaction on multiple levels, and in general, not only "fixes" the massive indy wealth problem, but actually turns it into a positive outlet for roleplay on multiple tiers of PC interaction.
It makes me sad the the GMH don't have more allure.
Quote from: Barzalene on April 10, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
It makes me sad the the GMH don't have more allure.
+1
Any time I have played a hunter in a GMH, which is many times, I always feel like they are begging my scraggly dusty hunter to stay there, instead of my scraggly dusty hunter begging them for the opportunity to be part of their great House.
It should really be the other way around.
To Maso's point about tools needing to wear out: First tools would need to be easy to buy, as it is, certain tools are impossible to find in the NPC economy.
Quote from: Desertman on April 10, 2013, 11:09:45 AM
Maybe scaled decreasing gains for selling the same item repeatedly?
You sell one pair of sandcloth gloves, the merchant gives you 40 coins.
You sell a second pair, well he already has a pair he hasn't moved, so, he will give you 30 coins.
A third pair, well shit, the man already has two pairs of them, but he will give you 20 coins anyways.
So on and so forth.
Make it so that selling massive amounts of the same items to the same merchant suddenly becomes much less profitable.
Well I thought they already refused to buy if they have 5 in stock. Diminishing returns wouldn't fix the problem of singular merchants flooding the shops with a certain number each of profitable items. If you limited such things on a per character basis, though, then it's more fair to other merchants.
QuoteThat is just putting a bandaid on the spurting severed artery though. The main issue in my opinion is that a single individual can obtain massive amounts of wealth and that is not a liability in any way to them because that wealth can't be touched by anyone who might do them harm. Why go after them for their massive wealth, even when they have no protection at all as a loner, because you know you can't touch it anyways, no matter what. *shrug*
Make that massive wealth a real liability and suddenly they are spending money to keep that money, which spreads out that wealth, leads to interaction on multiple levels, and in general, not only "fixes" the massive indy wealth problem, but actually turns it into a positive outlet for roleplay on multiple tiers of PC interaction.
LOL! Income tax. Actually it's not a terrible idea, if there is a way to automatically gauge a PC's income and report it to PC authorities. Though PC templars tend to be busy enough as it is, I'd hesitate to add tax collection to their duties.
I would like to see indy merchants who spam sell things to the shops needing their city's proper merchanting pass. I have never once seen those things actually mentioned aside from people high up forcing people down low to buy the passes, then never checking again.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 11:28:34 AM
LOL! Income tax. Actually it's not a terrible idea, if there is a way to automatically gauge a PC's income and report it to PC authorities. Though PC templars tend to be busy enough as it is, I'd hesitate to add tax collection to their duties.
That is what the Arm and the Legions are for. Send your Sergeant and his minions after Merchant X, to collect a tithe. Both Allanak and Tuluk have Merchant licenses which, to me, say that whenever the Templarate says you owe them coin, you owe them coin.
Would give some incentive on soldier/burglars to break into the Merchants house and rough up the place if they aren't paying, or to hassle them when they are in public about how untrustworthy they are. I mean, who is the public going to believe? The merchant talking about how rich and powerful he is? Or the soldier that says he's a crackpot.
I bet the worst abusers are dwarves. At least then they'd be doing something sort of right.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 11:28:34 AM
Well I thought they already refused to buy if they have 5 in stock. Diminishing returns wouldn't fix the problem of singular merchants flooding the shops with a certain number each of profitable items. If you limited such things on a per character basis, though, then it's more fair to other merchants.
The difference is one is realistic and one isn't. Diminishing returns would make selling multiple items of the same nature much less profitable while maintaining realism. While putting a OOC induced "hardcap" just "because it is OOC'ly fair to the other guy", is jarring and doesn't make as much IC sense.
I'm for both actually, as I think either/or would be needed, maybe even both at the same time, I just prefer the one that is more realistic.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 11:28:34 AM
LOL! Income tax. Actually it's not a terrible idea, if there is a way to automatically gauge a PC's income and report it to PC authorities. Though PC templars tend to be busy enough as it is, I'd hesitate to add tax collection to their duties.
Just having it so that templars can see your wealth and "tax" you only adds a very minor aspect to the concept. This now let's templars become massively rich off of indy merchants, which again isn't a bad idea, but only adds a single tier to the structure.
Making it so that suddenly that massive wealth is obtainable by the playerbase as a whole if they want to do you harm, and you aren't properly protected, that makes it a "playerbase wide" fully tiered from top to bottom concept instead of a "single role concept". (Meaning templar/indy merchant interaction only.)
Quote from: Desertman on April 10, 2013, 11:43:57 AM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 11:28:34 AM
Well I thought they already refused to buy if they have 5 in stock. Diminishing returns wouldn't fix the problem of singular merchants flooding the shops with a certain number each of profitable items. If you limited such things on a per character basis, though, then it's more fair to other merchants.
The difference is one is realistic and one isn't. Diminishing returns would make selling multiple items of the same nature much less profitable while maintaining realism. While putting a OOC induced "hardcap" just "because it is OOC'ly fair to the other guy", is jarring and doesn't make as much IC sense.
Are you talking individual soft caps? That works too. Though, I readily admitted that individual caps/limits buggers realism.
QuoteQuote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 11:28:34 AM
LOL! Income tax. Actually it's not a terrible idea, if there is a way to automatically gauge a PC's income and report it to PC authorities. Though PC templars tend to be busy enough as it is, I'd hesitate to add tax collection to their duties.
Just having it so that templars can see your wealth and "tax" you only adds a very minor aspect to the concept. This now let's templars become massively rich off of indy merchants, which again isn't a bad idea, but only adds a single tier to the structure.
Making it so that suddenly that massive wealth is obtainable by the playerbase as a whole if they want to do you harm, and you aren't properly protected, that makes it a "playerbase wide" fully tiered from top to bottom concept instead of a "single role concept". (Meaning templar/indy merchant interaction only.)
It's tricky, though. If you're talking about somehow encouraging super-rich indies to spread the wealth around with bribes, gifts, tips, and general partying all the time, well, that might be fun for a while but it also generates real power. Give me 2000 coins per RL week and before too long I could probably own the entire PC population of a city.
Wealth that doesn't disappear from the economy, with the death of a player, adds just that much more skewing to the economy, not less.
Armageddon doesn't have a PC economy that functions in that sort of flow model. We never will.
Quote from: Barzalene on April 10, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
It makes me sad the the GMH don't have more allure.
Whaaa'. What is with all the GMH hate. Guys. They have allure. It's not about the money. It's about the RPs! Sure your hunter is not going to be insanely rich within an IG month, but you do sudden access to a whole bunch of friends, and enemies and stories and plots, people to train with, a boss to hate, a woman to love, free gear from time to time, a purpose, something to complain about, something to adore, something to strive toward, someone you want to impress...etc etc. And usually, if you stick with it, don't die, actually get good, and you're not a douche....then you get rich.
Anyway, point is. The value of GMHs should not be based off the potential weekly income. It should be based off the potential for interesting and engaging RP.
If some kind of cap were introduced, it should be calculated for net gains. If I'm spending five hundred coins a RL day, I don't think it's unrealistic to be bringing in seven hundred. However the complexities of such a system would be great even if it only effected coded costs and not PC interactions.
Quote from: Maso on April 10, 2013, 12:15:44 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on April 10, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
It makes me sad the the GMH don't have more allure.
Whaaa'. What is with all the GMH hate. Guys. They have allure. It's not about the money. It's about the RPs! Sure your hunter is not going to be insanely rich within an IG month, but you do sudden access to a whole bunch of friends, and enemies and stories and plots, people to train with, a boss to hate, a woman to love, free gear from time to time, a purpose, something to complain about, something to adore, something to strive toward, someone you want to impress...etc etc. And usually, if you stick with it, don't die, actually get good, and you're not a douche....then you get rich.
Anyway, point is. The value of GMHs should not be based off the potential weekly income. It should be based off the potential for interesting and engaging RP.
What's the last time you actively sought out to work for a company that doesn't care about you in order to make less money than you otherwise would?
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 02:20:07 PM
I'm talking about people that make about 500 or even 800 offers vs 100 to 200 barters over that same 48 RL hour period. The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame. The ranger I'll have to look at more closely and weigh out exactly how much is being killed/skinned, but it's not looking pretty either.
Everybody is annoyed about this, but can we see this data with playtimes added? If the 500 item crafter is playing 16 of 48 hours, then they're actually crafting a lot less than someone making 200 items while playing an hour a night.
100-200 offers in a 48 hour period actually doesn't seem like much to me. If you make five offers per item, you only have to buy 20 different things. A tailor can go through that in about thirty minutes.
Not that I'm advocating spam-crafters filling NPC shops, but some consensus about what is and isn't acceptable might be useful.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 10, 2013, 12:26:59 PM
If some kind of cap were introduced, it should be calculated for net gains. If I'm spending five hundred coins a RL day, I don't think it's unrealistic to be bringing in seven hundred. However the complexities of such a system would be great even if it only effected coded costs and not PC interactions.
I'm not sure it should. Your net may be only 200, but the other 500 didn't neccesarily just go away; it probably went into your skills.
Also, PC interactions wouldn't be measured. We want to
encourage PC to PC sales, after all.
Quote from: Old Kank on April 10, 2013, 12:29:44 PM
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 02:20:07 PM
I'm talking about people that make about 500 or even 800 offers vs 100 to 200 barters over that same 48 RL hour period. The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame. The ranger I'll have to look at more closely and weigh out exactly how much is being killed/skinned, but it's not looking pretty either.
Everybody is annoyed about this, but can we see this data with playtimes added? If the 500 item crafter is playing 16 of 48 hours, then they're actually crafting a lot less than someone making 200 items while playing an hour a night.
Fair point, and something that cannot be discounted. I suppose if you are playing that much, it is less, though it would seem to make my next point* more pivotal to review.
Quote
100-200 offers in a 48 hour period actually doesn't seem like much to me. If you make five offers per item, you only have to buy 20 different things. A tailor can go through that in about thirty minutes.
But 800 in a 48 hour period, well. That seems like a lot. Again, if you're playing a lot in that 48 hour period, it is comparable to your playtime, but adjusted out evenly it still may be more than the average player. I'm not really concerned with that part as much anymore. I've done more research since then and it is not so bad as I initially thought, but there is certainly an amount of min/maxing and exploitation going on;
*the degree to which it affects other players is something I'm still trying to narrow down.
Quote from: Patuk on April 10, 2013, 12:28:27 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 10, 2013, 12:15:44 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on April 10, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
It makes me sad the the GMH don't have more allure.
Whaaa'. What is with all the GMH hate. Guys. They have allure. It's not about the money. It's about the RPs! Sure your hunter is not going to be insanely rich within an IG month, but you do sudden access to a whole bunch of friends, and enemies and stories and plots, people to train with, a boss to hate, a woman to love, free gear from time to time, a purpose, something to complain about, something to adore, something to strive toward, someone you want to impress...etc etc. And usually, if you stick with it, don't die, actually get good, and you're not a douche....then you get rich.
Anyway, point is. The value of GMHs should not be based off the potential weekly income. It should be based off the potential for interesting and engaging RP.
What's the last time you actively sought out to work for a company that doesn't care about you in order to make less money than you otherwise would?
...in the short run.
Indies may make more obsidian coins than clanned folks on the average and in the short run, but the graph ends up looking better for clanned PCs of all stripes in the long run.
- On average, independents do not live as long as clanned PCs.
- As the life of a clanned PC (particularly mercantile clanned PCs) goes on, more opportunities exist for major profit with regards to large deals on behalf of said organization. Independents may get similar opportunities, but for the most part, it rarely happens.
- The richest PCs are not independents. Though there are some independents with a disproportionately high level in their bank accounts, they aren't anywhere close to the richest PCs as a whole.
- Coin does not equal political power. It can buy you a posse, but established organizations usually have bigger posses.
- Clanned coin is usually safer than indie coin (your clan usually has your back, whether you're dealing with Nenyuk, your own clan, or the authorities). There are exceptions.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 10, 2013, 12:26:59 PM
If some kind of cap were introduced, it should be calculated for net gains. If I'm spending five hundred coins a RL day, I don't think it's unrealistic to be bringing in seven hundred. However the complexities of such a system would be great even if it only effected coded costs and not PC interactions.
I'm not sure it should. Your net may be only 200, but the other 500 didn't neccesarily just go away; it probably went into your skills.
Also, PC interactions wouldn't be measured. We want to encourage PC to PC sales, after all.
We also want to encourage spending money, not disincentive it by making expenses cost against profits.
[edited to add]
If I can spend 200 coins in the tavern buying spice and booze and know I can make it back by selling 200 worth in goods then I'm more likely to do that than not buy anything.
Quote from: Nyr on April 10, 2013, 01:06:43 PM
...in the short run.
The majority of characters in Armageddon aren't "longlived", so for the majority of the characters in Armageddon, indies make more coins than GMH employees, so....seems like a back to square one arguement. For most players, playing in a GMH isn't attractive due to low wages during their probable short-term careers. If they defy the odds and live a long time, yes, it is more attractive, but, that is playing against the odds, instead of with them, and playing against the odds is never attractive.
One might go on to argue that GMH's wouldn't pay higher wages to start because they ALSO know that most employees are short-term due to a high death ratio. I agree with that, and that makes IC sense, it however still leaves the playerbase with the "misconception", that being a member of a GMH, unless you are really high up, isn't very great/as great as the documentation makes it out to be.
Well, one thing to consider is they make much more in GMH position than their virtual indie counterparts.
Also, even though you have less virtual sid to buy virtual stuff, I think clans present more rp opportunities. I think that is better than virtual Sid.
Is this a derail?
Quote from: Desertman on April 10, 2013, 01:44:25 PMIf they defy the odds and live a long time, yes, it is more attractive, but, that is playing against the odds, instead of with them, and playing against the odds is never attractive.
(http://i.imgur.com/xmmWbBv.png)
"They" came to the wrong game for that. We're not saying that we won't tweak things here and there, but if the argument is that it's hard to stay alive and actually get to that point, see the rules of the game.
I think the biggest misconception for players is that pay in obsidian coins is more important than all of the benefits afforded those in organizational units in-game. And again, we will tweak things if need be to make this more clear.
If there was a cap on how much PCs can make selling to shops each week, then staff could keep it in line with how much GMH employees (maybe recruits?) make.
Sure it's a bit of an OOC concept, but so is having an NPC pay as much for your novicely cut plank as they do for a masterly cut one. You could have the IC reasoning as shop keepers not liking the look of your creations, or the hide was badly tanned in a rush or something. If you want to be sure the buyer will like and buy your blouse of doom, then spend that IG half month pretending to focus your attention on making it.
It also wouldn't shaft casual and off peak players (who understandably don't always have the patience to be in an unpopulated clan with an enforced schedule), as it could be a manageable amount to live off.
It would also correspond to the way you can get rich in clans - by living a long time and defying the odds!
It might also help change the mentality that exists where GMH employment doesn't seem to some so attractive* and GMH employers often seem to have to tout for employees. The only convincing argument for joining a clan is for RP, which should be enough really but in practice doesn't seem to work out that way.
Being an independent should be the hard choice, not the easy one.
* Though I think the financial aspect is only part of this problem, but that's a derail.
You do realize that there's at least one GMH where recruits make nothing, literally nothing, in coins, Booya?
That would simply tweak it so that you could literally make no coins with an unclanned or clanned recruit, depending on the clan.
And aside from that, most clans recruit pay won't cover the rent on a shitty apartment. Where do indies sleep? And how would that work for someone who's, let's say, playing 10 hours a day, but outside for good portions of it, making 150 sid (if we're going with some noble house employee pay, some gmh pay) per RL week. That's not going to begin to cover the cost of food and water alone.
The reason for joining a GMH as a crafter is because each GMH has a specialty, and they can do that specialty better than any independent can hope to in a lifetime, because they have literal Ages worth of infrastructure, research and clout. Somewhere along the way, when you master those techniques, you are locked in as a permanent House asset.
If you don't believe me, build yourself a wagon, make a perfect diamond cut, or build an indestructible suit of horror plate armor that's light enough for a human. I dare you!
Quote from: Kismetic on April 10, 2013, 02:26:49 PM
The reason for joining a GMH as a crafter is because each GMH has a specialty, and they can do that specialty better than any independent can hope to in a lifetime, because they have literal Ages worth of infrastructure, research and clout. Somewhere along the way, when you master those techniques, you are locked in as a permanent House asset.
If you don't believe me, build yourself a wagon, make a perfect diamond cut, or build an indestructible suit of horror plate armor that's light enough for a human. I dare you!
Exactly. You should be happy or begging to join them not because of the sid, but because of the other opportunities. Being indie's like being a child star in hollywood. You're totally popular, you get around a lot after you start to grow up and WAY before you meet your full potential, you have an early, pointless death that leaves vast amounts more wealth than anyone that's been around as little time as you have ought to have.
Clanned pcs would be the Elizabeth Taylor's of the game world. Around forever, took a long while to build their wealth, get involved in decade-long storylines, and do impossible thing but have their own unique trademark that even after death will be associated with them, even if it belongs more to the clan than the individual pc. Like Elizabeth Taylor's White Diamonds. Heh.
I don't think that trying to make indie pcs work the way clanned pcs work is a feasible idea, and I think it would have a lot of undesirable side effects.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 10, 2013, 02:21:53 PM
You do realize that there's at least one GMH where recruits make nothing, literally nothing, in coins, Booya?
Nope, didn't realize. Or have forgotton, if I knew. Sooo....obviously i'm not saying the amount you should be able to make off NPC shops should be 0. Maybe give those particular recruits pay? Maybe pay for GMH employees needs to be bumped a bit. Also, maybe different jobs in clans have different answers to make things work.
If someone is living outside for a good portion of their gameplay, aren't they meant to be a ranger or have subguilds to help with that kind of water/food problem? If they haven't got that, life would be hard anyway...w/shouldn't it?
Personally, I think affording an apartment or room that you're not slumming with 10 other NPCs and has a lock should be seen as a luxury, not a given. If you can't afford one with sharing the rent with another person, as a GMH recruit, maybe that needs to be changed. Though really, as far as I know you get a cot and a locker. Not willing to play an IG year without having your own place? If you want to mudsex, get creative!
Quote from: Kismetic on April 10, 2013, 02:26:49 PM
Why clans are good.
Yes. I think this falls under what I said about RP being the good reason for joining one - as opposed to it being financially at least on a par with being indie.
What does staff consider to be the "safe zone" with regards to money for an unconnected indie? Four digit number? If a person isn't exceedingly careful with where they buy their food from the costs of simply sitting in a tavern over a long period of time for an indie can go up fast, and while a large to my indie might be a moderate sum of money, by the end of a RL week with enough playtime that food has been eaten. I've never gotten an idea of how much money is too much to have and I'd like to keep well below it. Any ideas?
I think a fair measuring stick is clan salaries, which typically seem to range from 300-500 per game month (1 game month ~= 2 RL weeks).
So, as an indy, factor out food and water costs (because clans usually provide those) over the same period and then compare your remainder to the above figure.
Krath, I don't think we should all be walking around on eggshells making sure we don't make too much money. :p
If the problem of indie crafters flooding the markets is caused by a desire to amass wealth, a potentially good way to fix that would be to put a cap on bank account sizes. I think if Nenyuk was only willing to store up to (for the sake of argument) 10,000 of an indie's coins it would limit the desire to collect coins, force indies that desire wealth to work together and form those cool indie groups that pop up from time to time, and help establish that indies lack clout in society if Nenyuk doesn't want to waste the effort involved in keeping track of a mere indie's money. Indies that disregard the cap would have to carry the money or store it somewhere else, leaving them vulnerable to robbery, or actually buy stuff. Meanwhile clanned PCs would have higher caps, and nobles/templars/GMH family would have even higher caps or none at all.
Quote from: Desertman on April 10, 2013, 01:44:25 PM
Quote from: Nyr on April 10, 2013, 01:06:43 PM
...in the short run.
The majority of characters in Armageddon aren't "longlived", so for the majority of the characters in Armageddon, indies make more coins than GMH employees, so....seems like a back to square one arguement. For most players, playing in a GMH isn't attractive due to low wages during their probable short-term careers. If they defy the odds and live a long time, yes, it is more attractive, but, that is playing against the odds, instead of with them, and playing against the odds is never attractive.
One might go on to argue that GMH's wouldn't pay higher wages to start because they ALSO know that most employees are short-term due to a high death ratio. I agree with that, and that makes IC sense, it however still leaves the playerbase with the "misconception", that being a member of a GMH, unless you are really high up, isn't very great/as great as the documentation makes it out to be.
"... in the short term" is a matter of opinion. Personally, I feel the game should shrive for balance more for long term characters more than short. If you only live for a RL month, you're not really impacting the game a great deal. The GMH's have much more profit potential, power, and influence than almost any indy can obtain. For example, how often do you see an indy merchant rolling around in a wagon with NPC guards?
Here are some problems with the current economy:
- The economy hasn't adjusted to the increased number of players. This results in many shops that are out of money and lots of shops that don't buy common items.
- Newbie characters use to spend their newbie coin at the shops in the cities/villages. Now they spend their coins in the newbie OOC shops and this coin and purchases no longer impacts the game.
- With the extended subguilds, more characters can now obtain their own raw materials and mastercraft their own things to trade.
Possible solutions:
- Instead of selling one item to VNPCs, have shop keeper NPCs sell all of 1 type of item to VNPCs and add that money to what they can buy.
- Increase the rate of virtual sell offs.
- Have shops start with less gear and more money on reboots.
- Add these newbie shops to the IG world or tie their profits to an associated IG market.
- Allow templars more leash to shakedown and "tax" indys without political influence. Indys might need to bribe templars or organizations for protection.
I'd also like to suggest that some of these problems can be handled by players IG. If gortok skulls no longer sell well, hunt something else or take your skulls to another village or city where gortoks are rare. If someone is flooding the market where you trade, trade something else or have that person assassinated. If that indy looks too rich outside the city, rob/raid them.
However, we shouldn't weaken the independent too much. They are the primary targets of most of the PC burglars in the game. Without them, you end up playing a burglar that keeps breaking into empty apartments. Plus, people without guards are more easily sapped ;)
Quote from: Maso on April 10, 2013, 03:12:02 PM
Krath, I don't think we should all be walking around on eggshells making sure we don't make too much money. :p
I don't mean to say that if you make more than a clanned character you should be ashamed of yourself. However, if you make 10x as much as a clanned character, you probably should reconsider your playing habits.
If someone could weigh in on how much money is acceptable for an indie to make, that would be nice.
If a new player found this thread, we wouldn't want them to think they are doing something wrong by selling stacks of five items to npc shopkeepers.
Why not just have your respective city-state/outpost who are housing Nenyuk impose a tax on all balance inquiries, withdrawals and deposits for anyone who isn't an employee of a GMH or noble house? Seems like that would take care of some of it. People in Zalanthas should be living paycheck to paycheck without huge stockpiles of money at their disposal when they want it. God, maybe it would put more coins in dead character's backpacks and in apartments to be burgled. Would that be such a bad thing? And make the tax rate so high that it's just almost, gosh, oppressive? Nenyuk can't just sit on all the coin, let the God-Kings tax already.
So, in review: high taxes for indie, no taxes for clannies. There you have it.
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 10, 2013, 03:14:10 PM
If the problem of indie crafters flooding the markets is caused by a desire to amass wealth, a potentially good way to fix that would be to put a cap on bank account sizes. I think if Nenyuk was only willing to store up to (for the sake of argument) 10,000 of an indie's coins it would limit the desire to collect coins, force indies that desire wealth to work together and form those cool indie groups that pop up from time to time, and help establish that indies lack clout in society if Nenyuk doesn't want to waste the effort involved in keeping track of a mere indie's money. Indies that disregard the cap would have to carry the money or store it somewhere else, leaving them vulnerable to robbery, or actually buy stuff. Meanwhile clanned PCs would have higher caps, and nobles/templars/GMH family would have even higher caps or none at all.
I like this idea... another idea building on this is that there could be "banking errors" if an accounts become very large where there is no actual cap but the amount deposited isn't exactly the same as the balance. ;)
This would encourage players to either spend/invest their coins, or do other things with their playtime.
I like Cutthroat and Law & Order's suggestions.
QuoteAllow templars more leash to shakedown and "tax" indys without political influence. Indys might need to bribe templars or organizations for protection.
There is already room for this in both city-states (and in Luir's, if you switch "templar" for "Kuraci"). It also happens to some extent, but I'd like to see more interest from the GMH than just random templar-taxing of seemingly wealthy indy merchants. By GMH interest I mean that if they catch wind of some indy dude making thousands of coin crafting the GMH kind of goods, they should raise their concern with the powers that be. GMHs don't like missing out on profits.
That kind of GMH reaction and PC-to-PC interaction creates conflict and potentially plots. Over-taxation by templar PCs for the sake of it will probably just lead to frustration among the targeted players. Part of being a templar/noble/GMH rep is to create/enable/lead, not to push people away.
Quote from: LauraMars on April 10, 2013, 03:24:37 PM
If someone could weigh in on how much money is acceptable for an indie to make, that would be nice.
If a new player found this thread, we wouldn't want them to think they are doing something wrong by selling stacks of five items to npc shopkeepers.
There is nothing wrong with making too much money. Additionally, as long as an economy exists, you cannot control it. Capitalism wins. I think the point is that there should be more incentive to join the GMHs and that you shouldn't make too much coin by spam crafting. You can usually make a lot more money by stealing and killing than you can by trading. However, they're two ways of making money have a lot of drawbacks. Making a lot of money is fine, even if you're an indy. For example, the last time I played a gypsy I sold someone a handful of lichen for a ton of sids by making false claims about it. I've also made huge bounties by assassinating people. The game simply needs a little tweak, not banking caps or more coded inhibitors.
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 10, 2013, 03:14:10 PM
If the problem of indie crafters flooding the markets is caused by a desire to amass wealth, a potentially good way to fix that would be to put a cap on bank account sizes. I think if Nenyuk was only willing to store up to (for the sake of argument) 10,000 of an indie's coins it would limit the desire to collect coins, force indies that desire wealth to work together and form those cool indie groups that pop up from time to time, and help establish that indies lack clout in society if Nenyuk doesn't want to waste the effort involved in keeping track of a mere indie's money. Indies that disregard the cap would have to carry the money or store it somewhere else, leaving them vulnerable to robbery, or actually buy stuff. Meanwhile clanned PCs would have higher caps, and nobles/templars/GMH family would have even higher caps or none at all.
When you die, Nenyuk keeps all your coins. I'd imagine they want fat bank accounts.
Quote from: Law&Order on April 10, 2013, 03:32:33 PM
Why not just have your respective city-state/outpost who are housing Nenyuk impose a tax on all balance inquiries, withdrawals and deposits for anyone who isn't an employee of a GMH or noble house? Seems like that would take care of some of it. People in Zalanthas should be living paycheck to paycheck without huge stockpiles of money at their disposal when they want it. God, maybe it would put more coins in dead character's backpacks and in apartments to be burgled. Would that be such a bad thing? And make the tax rate so high that it's just almost, gosh, oppressive? Nenyuk can't just sit on all the coin, let the God-Kings tax already.
So, in review: high taxes for indie, no taxes for clannies. There you have it.
Having made similar suggestions to the banking code in the past I can tell you that this is in general a frowned upon concept.
Why? I still don't know.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 03:17:14 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 10, 2013, 03:12:02 PM
Krath, I don't think we should all be walking around on eggshells making sure we don't make too much money. :p
I don't mean to say that if you make more than a clanned character you should be ashamed of yourself. However, if you make 10x as much as a clanned character, you probably should reconsider your playing habits.
I would think that would depend on a lot of things, actually. I can't even begin to guess how much the ever popular silky braies sell for, but I recall hearing someone brag once about a tailor pc of theirs making around 300 sid off of -1- item they sold. Now if you sell 10 items over the course of an in game month, I don't think that's exorbitant.
I think in the end it comes down to a question of how reasonable what your characters are doing is. And, tbh, I think that one of the biggest things that could be done to help all this would be to double all crafting delays. Because then you literally make twinking take twice as long, but someone who's not.... won't really have to worry about it so much. Double the delay on 5 items, barely noticeable, double the delay 50 items, irritating, but not bad, double the delay on 500 - *brain explodingly shitty*. Then, I've been in favor of increasing crafting delays while allowing you to send psi messages for... years now, really.
Even if you're only making 1 of these items per rl day, these 300 coin type items, over the course of 2 rl weeks, you've made more than 10x the amount a clanned pc makes.
Now imagine a merchant pc whose player spends 10 hours a day logged in making only a single item per rl day and doing that. And how far under average that actually is?
I think the solution would be a good combination of things, really, given time to think about it:
Increase crafting delays.
Increase clanned pay (as it is, even if you only log in for 1 IC day per RL day, in most places if you're not drinking the cheapest drink, you can't get a drink once an IC week on that)
Add in the 'account errors' for anyone not in a clan who accrues more than 10k sid in the bank. Yes it can happen now, but it's mostly manual and it's very sparing. I would like to see this more. 10k is worth more than the life of a commoner. Sorry.
I think if all those were altered, it would cause people to craft fewer things even in spamcrafting sessions (lowering sid for indies), give clans more appeal and at least allow clanned pcs to get a drink once a week without resorting to that piss warm ale, and keep people's sid to more realistic levels for those without huge organizations to back them. In fact, not having huge organizations with a number of political ties to back them regularly screws over tribals and is a part of -why- they don't use the banks, so I think that would be a very -good- reflection of the game world's realities and improve things a -lot-.
Independents should be able to make more than clanned, following conventional financial theory. They are taking more risk, rationally they should be getting more reward. First, they have to actually make a profit, not just put in some time. They have more risk from a political perspective. If they are travelling, or gathering their own materials, that is typically more risk. The living quarters they have access to have more risk associated with them than secure clan compounds. They have more risk because they don't own the monopoly on their respective goods. And on and on. They definately should have the potential to be making more than a GMH employee.
I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week. Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items. Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 10, 2013, 03:46:26 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 03:17:14 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 10, 2013, 03:12:02 PM
Krath, I don't think we should all be walking around on eggshells making sure we don't make too much money. :p
I don't mean to say that if you make more than a clanned character you should be ashamed of yourself. However, if you make 10x as much as a clanned character, you probably should reconsider your playing habits.
I would think that would depend on a lot of things, actually. I can't even begin to guess how much the ever popular silky braies sell for, but I recall hearing someone brag once about a tailor pc of theirs making around 300 sid off of -1- item they sold. Now if you sell 10 items over the course of an in game month, I don't think that's exorbitant.
Yes it is. 3000 coins a month is a lot of money. How effecient your crafting recipes are doesn't excuse it.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 10, 2013, 03:46:26 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 03:17:14 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 10, 2013, 03:12:02 PM
Krath, I don't think we should all be walking around on eggshells making sure we don't make too much money. :p
I don't mean to say that if you make more than a clanned character you should be ashamed of yourself. However, if you make 10x as much as a clanned character, you probably should reconsider your playing habits.
I would think that would depend on a lot of things, actually. I can't even begin to guess how much the ever popular silky braies sell for, but I recall hearing someone brag once about a tailor pc of theirs making around 300 sid off of -1- item they sold. Now if you sell 10 items over the course of an in game month, I don't think that's exorbitant.
Yes it is. 3000 coins a month is a lot of money. How effecient your crafting recipes are doesn't excuse it.
And people who roleplay grebbers who go out and salt/pick cotton/whatever for 10 IC days a week, making an average of, let's say, 30 sid a day beyond the cost of food and water?
300 sid. Multiply that by the 14 RL days in 2 weeks. 4200 sid.
And that's taking a break at dusk, going out at dawn or early morning, RPing realistically through the course of the IC day and just simply doing what your PC would do if they were a grebber/miner/salter/etc.
It really is not exorbitant. It depends highly on what you play, how much you play, and so on.
You don't even -need- to craft anything to make that much. You can do automated jobs and make that much if you have high enough play times. And I don't think that capping it all back to try and scale everything to what someone in a clan makes is the appropriate way to handle it when the clans don't just pay in coins but in food, water, shelter, and political protection as well as possible bonuses.
I don't reallly care which automated game system you used to get that money. It's still a lot.
(Also, you do realize that in your example, that person is playing 15 hours per RL day, right? You really think that's not ridiculous?)
Well if 3000 coins a month is a lot of money then how come making 5 to 10 of certain items can earn it?
The problem seems to lie more with the fact that, who wants to rp that they took a whole month to make one valuable item or two, then go try and sell it only to find a couple people made 500 five Sid pairs of pants and sold all the shops out.
It doesnt make sense that a shop would pour our coins on trash then when that elegant, beaded and ruffled azure-feathered lace gown comes in its like, sorry, we bought a hundred pairs of beige pants. No dice.
Im all for junk shops.
Also, im all for IC enforcement of merchant licenses and possible rules.
What about a limit on number of items that can be sold by a pc in any given shop?
If people are abusing by spamming barter everywhere, setting NPC shops with a timer might break it up without forcing staff to waste time policing the stores.
Say three items then shopkeep says, "Hey, im trying to run a business here. I think we're done for today."
Obviously what we need here are more tiny outposts throughout the Known to crop up with small, specialized markets like Cenyr. I know we used to have things like this way back when, back when we still had Mal Krian, but now that we have a rising number of players maybe we can get some of them back?
Quote from: greasygemo on April 10, 2013, 04:08:53 PM
Well if 3000 coins a month is a lot of money then how come making 5 to 10 of certain items can earn it?
Nail, head?
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 10, 2013, 04:07:59 PM
I don't reallly care which automated game system you used to get that money. It's still a lot.
(Also, you do realize that in your example, that person is playing 15 hours per RL day, right? You really think that's not ridiculous?)
You are XX years, 1 months, and 131 days old,
You have been playing for 10 days and 5 hours.
So... in a little over 21 days.... 10 days 5 hours.
Yeah. I'm unemployed and not in school. It's ridiculous, but not as far-fetched as you might think.
I'm sure it might -seem- like a lot of money, until you get into the very simple:
Alright, 30 coins. Take 10 off for the cheapest drink in the bar. 10 IC days a week. That's 100 sid per IC week.
x14
So that's 1400 sid just in ale to have a single one of the cheapest drink in that amount of time after you kick your feet up at the end of the day.
No, it's really not that much.
If you were playing, say, 2 hours a day, yes, that would be a ridiculous fuckload of sid.
But I can tell you from experience 'a lot' depends a lot on how much time you spend logged in.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 10, 2013, 04:01:31 PM
I don't think that capping it all back to try and scale everything to what someone in a clan makes is the appropriate way to handle it when the clans don't just pay in coins but in food, water, shelter, and political protection as well as possible bonuses.
Except your indie can still sell to other PCs, and so can still become rich. A clanned PC can't unless they're breaking rules and risking their cushty place.
Quote from: greasygemo on April 10, 2013, 04:08:53 PM
The problem seems to lie more with the fact that, who wants to rp that they took a whole month to make one valuable item or two, then go try and sell it only to find a couple people made 500 five Sid pairs of pants and sold all the shops out.
It doesnt make sense that a shop would pour our coins on trash then when that elegant, beaded and ruffled azure-feathered lace gown comes in its like, sorry, we bought a hundred pairs of beige pants. No dice.
If you were pretty much guaranteed the NPC would buy your ruffled dress, because you hadn't made all your personal allowance with beige pants, that would work wouldn't it?
If people are worried about having a surplus of gear that they've made to practice on, you can always junk what you make anyway, pretending there was a tear or wonky hem or something.
So this thread appears to have degenerated into a debate on how much money a PC can make before he is responsible for ruining the economy for other players.
Once a staff member tells the community that players are a major part of the problem with the economy, could it have gone in any other direction?
Staff never said that. They said they were looking into it. As for how the discussion devolved into a debate on indies and hunter making to much coin compared to clanned people. Welcome to the GDB Hate-Cycle.
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 10, 2013, 03:14:10 PM
I think if Nenyuk was only willing to store up to (for the sake of argument) 10,000 of an indie's coins it would limit the desire to collect coins, force indies that desire wealth to work together and form those cool indie groups that pop up from time to time, and help establish that indies lack clout in society if Nenyuk doesn't want to waste the effort involved in keeping track of a mere indie's money.
I'm not sure the magic number is 10,000, but that does seem reasonable.
I think this would actually be a really good idea. No standard, personal bank accounts bigger that 10,000.
You can have more coin, but you have to store it somewhere. Or pay someone else to bank it for you. Or store it with your clan boss in the clan account.
Quote from: Morrolan on April 10, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 10, 2013, 03:14:10 PM
I think if Nenyuk was only willing to store up to (for the sake of argument) 10,000 of an indie's coins it would limit the desire to collect coins, force indies that desire wealth to work together and form those cool indie groups that pop up from time to time, and help establish that indies lack clout in society if Nenyuk doesn't want to waste the effort involved in keeping track of a mere indie's money.
I'm not sure the magic number is 10,000, but that does seem reasonable.
I think this would actually be a really good idea. No standard, personal bank accounts bigger that 10,000.
You can have more coin, but you have to store it somewhere. Or pay someone else to bank it for you. Or store it with your clan boss in the clan account.
I was thinking of hiring a half-giant to carry it around, but then there's the need to hire a dwarf to follow him around to make sure the money doesn't get "lost". Surely creating an upstart indy banking merchant house would have many more challenges.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 10, 2013, 04:15:09 PMBut I can tell you from experience 'a lot' depends a lot on how much time you spend logged in.
Sorry, but it's still a lot.
Clannie Joe gets 300 coins a month no matter how much he plays.
300? Lol. Some don't even give you that.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 10, 2013, 04:46:43 PM
I was thinking of hiring a half-giant to carry it around, but then there's the need to hire a dwarf to follow him around to make sure the money doesn't get "lost". Surely creating an upstart indy banking merchant house would have many more challenges.
You could always store your money with certain northside organizations. They could lend it out.
But that's neither here nor there. We're looking at more fundamental questions:
- Why do people want massive bank accounts?
- Is it good for the game economy and more generally, the game?
Speaking for myself, my characters that had large bank accounts primarily kept them for emergency bribes. One of them felt the need to be able to bribe as high as a red robe at a moment's notice.
Large bank balances by themselves don't affect the game's "economy". We don't have an economy. For the most part, money just magickally appears and disappears with little accounting for it.
People who rapidly increase their bank accounts without appropriately elevating their social status are a problem. In theory the social systems in the game could correct for that (taxes/bribes, theft, assassination) but it seems that they don't do a particularly great job of it and may need some more code and/or policy help.
EDIT: And when rapid income unreasonably stifles the livelihood of other players, that's a problem.
I'm not hating, I like playing Indies and having them around. :-[
I once played a sidekick to an Indie PC that worked the north/south trade route, as well as taking and filling orders from loads of PCs, and from all corners of the Known, it seemed like. They worked to try and ensure the Templars, Nobles and GMHs were happy, and had a caravan that was totally raidable, though unfortunately nobody did during my stint as sidekick.
It was great, and they were filthy rich.
Lots of money: lots of money to spend on players (bribes, gifts, plots, PC purchases).
If you're just sitting on piles of money for no reason other than to have it, and you're not a dwarf with a related focus: USE YOUR 'SID.
Actual $$ amounts, meh, I've had over 80k, I've had characters who rarely topped 1k and if they did, felt insanely rich.
5-15k is a reasonable average for an established indie PC who has to frequently grease the wheels of the playerbase.
In regards to economy, what is the purpose of it in the game?
Primary Goal/best element of ARM = Roleplaying
Paramount to an enjoyable RP experience as outlined countless times equals one thing:
Surviving long enough to make friends, get involved in plots.
What things cost money and are required to meet this objective?
1. Food / Water
Not all PC's have the ability to greb for food and/or water and/or hunt, so in many cases,
the ability to pay for food and water is priority number one.
2. Weapons / Armour
If you are a PC that needs to go outside this is essential to survival.
You can't expect to live a long time venturing outside with a tandu cap and a sharp stick, unless you
really only care to kill the one tregil every week for a long long time, and that gets boring. Fast.
Furthermore, even PC's that don't hunt or guard invest in weapons and armor, what else protects you from
that rinthi that decides to take a swing at you in the Gaj?
3. Tools / Materials
Sanding blocks, picks, knives, uncraftable items and a whole host of things both merchants and hunters
alike need to complete their daily tasks.
4. Rent / Storage
Not applicable in all cases, but especially true of independents. You're not going to want to venture off
over encumbered, heck, if you're a lumbering sort, you're not going to be able to even carry much.
5. Social Quo Tools / Items
Again, not always applicable, but if you are the type that wants to get involved in larger, high level plots,
bribes, assassins, buying dinner and wine for that Crew Leader, getting an appropriate outfit to wear
at that event, hiring a teacher or instructor for something, etc. You need money to do that. Sometimes, a lot.
The economy, if we are looking at it in the scope of it's place in the game world, should support the objective of
being able to RP and HAVE FUN DOING IT.
So long as the economy is doing that, then it's fine. If there are people seriously abusing it to a level that impacts
the enjoyability of the game, then it presents a problem. Otherwise, just leave it alone.
That was a lot of words to basically say "don't fix what ain' broke"
I think, based on this thread, some people probably think it's broken, yeah?
Quote from: Delirium on April 10, 2013, 05:30:09 PM
Lots of money: lots of money to spend on players (bribes, gifts, plots, PC purchases).
If you're just sitting on piles of money for no reason other than to have it, and you're not a dwarf with a related focus: USE YOUR 'SID.
Actual $$ amounts, meh, I've had over 80k, I've had characters who rarely topped 1k and if they did, felt insanely rich.
5-15k is a reasonable average for an established indie PC who has to frequently grease the wheels of the playerbase.
+1
I've rarely topped 1k on hand with -any- of my characters, let alone 80k. I agree with everything you said though.
@moe: I've had one character that apparently made around 10k a month - noble house employed, made it outside the employment, and put more than 50% of it back to their noble to fund projects with. I had no idea it was anywhere -near- that much until another character who knew that pc pointed it out, so they immediately started using it to fund plots. Why? Because the actions that resulted in it weren't deciding to 'mass produce' things to try and 'make a ton of sid'. They were a crafter who sat and regularly crafted who had ridiculously good access to markets and would make it a point -not- to run everyone up to max stock or drain all their coin and dropped even that # when other pcs of the same crafting type showed up around and started selling to the same folks. I don't think making what averages out to let's say, 2-3 rings or 2-3 shirts in a day is unrealistic, given that I could make the same IRL Sewing by hand, and have, or crafting with nothing more than sandpaper to shape the stuff from raw materials, also have. [ps: Had no clue they were making so much because they'd never have more than 600 or so sid on them unless it was under exceptional circumstances, and they in no way shape or form ever used nenyuk]
I've read a lot of people asking the staff for coded solutions, bank account caps, and longer crafting delays. Personally, I find all of these things dreadfully boring and frustrating. What if we asked for IG solutions...
For example, I bet a lot of these problems come from Tuluk where there are plenty of easily obtainable resources and lots of profitable game to hunt. Seeing this, the staff opens up or moves tribal elves into the grasslands east of Tuluk. These elves are highly territorial and fiercely defend thier land from Tuluki that they see as poachers. Suddenly, there is real risk involved in heading out all alone on a duskhorn hunt.
Down in Allanak, perhaps gith PCs are reintroduced to add a little more danger. The growing player base might suggest the game can handle a few more evil clans. Suddenly, there is an increased demand for mercenaries and caravan guides. Players have to work together more frequently. Perhaps some try to bribe the gith, others learn to avoid them, and some can fight their way through.
And down in Red Storm... Pfff, Red Storm doesn't have any of these problems. A jug of ale and a bowl of stew cost over 120 coins. The apartments are small and expensive. When you leave the gates, beasts hunt you instead of you hunting them. Sandstorms rage for over three straight days, food and water are scarce, and your bank account is how much you can carry in your backpack!
Which game would you rather play? One with longer crafting delays and bank account caps, or the one where you face an ugly, screaming PC gith warrior/outdoorsman?
I know which one I'd prefer.
I'd still like to see caps adjusted....and more based off the value/size of an item. Stuff like...a stem of grass or a flower or a single vine...cap at 100...stuff like a bed or a full suit of armor...cap at 5.
Quote from: williamson on April 10, 2013, 07:56:53 PM
I've read a lot of people asking the staff for coded solutions, bank account caps, and longer crafting delays. Personally, I find all of these things dreadfully boring and frustrating. What if we asked for IG solutions...
For example, I bet a lot of these problems come from Tuluk where there are plenty of easily obtainable resources and lots of profitable game to hunt. Seeing this, the staff opens up or moves tribal elves into the grasslands east of Tuluk. These elves are highly territorial and fiercely defend thier land from Tuluki that they see as poachers. Suddenly, there is real risk involved in heading out all alone on a duskhorn hunt.
Down in Allanak, perhaps gith PCs are reintroduced to add a little more danger. The growing player base might suggest the game can handle a few more evil clans. Suddenly, there is an increased demand for mercenaries and caravan guides. Players have to work together more frequently. Perhaps some try to bribe the gith, others learn to avoid them, and some can fight their way through.
And down in Red Storm... Pfff, Red Storm doesn't have any of these problems. A jug of ale and a bowl of stew cost over 120 coins. The apartments are small and expensive. When you leave the gates, beasts hunt you instead of you hunting them. Sandstorms rage for over three straight days, food and water are scarce, and your bank account is how much you can carry in your backpack!
Which game would you rather play? One with longer crafting delays and bank account caps, or the one where you face an ugly, screaming PC gith warrior/outdoorsman?
I know which one I'd prefer.
Well, your suggestions are cool and all, but still require a bunch of work from staff. You did make me want to play in Red Storm though.
Quote from: Morrolan on April 10, 2013, 04:08:44 AM
Quote from: Nyr on April 09, 2013, 02:20:07 PM
The worst offender is crafting upwards of 500 items in that same time frame.
Ahem. Shitty.
That is because they are a child in china, it is expected.. oh wait this is Z-land.. my bad.
It sounds like it's broke because people wanna make more money, not less.
I'd be all for variable crafting delays. You either make something fast or you make something well. Not both. Go ahead and rush through dozens of crafts in a day, but good luck getting anyone to buy them. Or take your time and have something worth selling.
Quote from: flurry on April 10, 2013, 10:48:20 PM
I'd be all for variable crafting delays. You either make something fast or you make something well. Not both. Go ahead and rush through dozens of crafts in a day, but good luck getting anyone to buy them. Or take your time and have something worth selling.
I would be more enthusiastic about this idea if they permitted waying during crafting delays.
Quote from: Quell on April 10, 2013, 10:54:09 PM
Quote from: flurry on April 10, 2013, 10:48:20 PM
I'd be all for variable crafting delays. You either make something fast or you make something well. Not both. Go ahead and rush through dozens of crafts in a day, but good luck getting anyone to buy them. Or take your time and have something worth selling.
I would be more enthusiastic about this idea if they permitted waying during crafting delays.
Right. I agree. I don't know how it would even work, but I'm just thinking it would be nice if there were some tradeoff giving reasonable consequences for something like rushing to make a zillion silk dresses, for example.
I played a game where each craft had a set amount of virtual time needed to complete it, and once you hit your daily work cap you couldn't craft anything else.
So, you'd make a really fancy dress and some silky braies, or a bunch of simple doodads, and you were done for the day. Maybe you'd have some work time left to cook dinner and cut a quick ribbon or two, but you couldn't just sit around churning out ultra-embroidered fancy stuff. You'd have to go and hang out in the world.
I'm not saying this is ideal, just another alternative way of dealing with an IC economy.
IMO, GMH leaders should put more of a lean on indie crafters who are cutting in on their houses niche whether personally, through hired shadies, or da law.
CORRUPTION being the key word here. Hell, at times it's probably worth having a minion who's main task is to watch the markets and keep you informed as to how you and your house can be taking advantage of the little guys who are essentially taking money out of your pockets (bonus coins to them if they are also the ones who handle getting your chosen point across or being the middle man for the ones who do). *Shout-out to the best minion ever, you know who you are!!!*
Heh, I've even had staff telling me OOCly to back off on one or two indies in the past.
Armageddon staff telling me that my corrupt monopoly holder is being too corrupt gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. :)
Quote from: Withered Ocotillo on April 10, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
Once a staff member tells the community that players are a major part of the problem with the economy, could it have gone in any other direction?
It's not really as bad as you're painting it, nor the situation as bad as I initially thought, and I said as much. The discussion probably needs to occur. However, you should trust that players and staff that have been actively playing for years do have a pretty good grasp of what is going on. If you're only recently coming back from a hiatus, I would suggest taking a step back to see how the game itself is working and ask questions first--then make suggestions! :)
Quote from: FantasyWriter on April 10, 2013, 11:07:51 PM
IMO, GMH leaders should put more of a lean on indie crafters who are cutting in on their houses niche whether personally, through hired shadies, or da law.
CORRUPTION being the key word here. Hell, at times it's probably worth having a minion who's main task is to watch the markets and keep you informed as to how you and your house can be taking advantage of the little guys who are essentially taking money out of your pockets (bonus coins to them if they are also the ones who handle getting your chosen point across or being the middle man for the ones who do). *Shout-out to the best minion ever, you know who you are!!!*
Heh, I've even had staff telling me OOCly to back off on one or two indies in the past.
Armageddon staff telling me that my corrupt monopoly holder is being too corrupt gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. :)
I wish they would do this too, but I think most higher up GMHs just have too much on their plates.
... Of course they could always delegate. I think that'd be a fun task for a lower ranking GMH. Make some trouble; sanctioned trouble.
Instead of relying on Staff to ferret out indie merchants who are disrupting one or more GMH's interests with mass flooding of shops - an easy and effective IC solution would be for GMH leader PCs to designate one or more persons to keep an eye on the marketplaces and if found necessary, have them "take care" of the indie merchants. This could be in the form of a warning, threat, absorption into the clan itself or in extreme cases even a quick contract to the city's shadier institutions who offer such services.
You know, I think I almost saw this happened at least once.. Then nothing happened. I can't say anything about it, but I super duper hope the nothing happening was for like, an IC reason. ???
Here is my thing....
I have a problem with some merchant PC crafting 800 times in 24 hours for weeks on end and then sitting on a huge horde of coins in the bank that they do nothing with. They just like, "being wealthy".
I have absolutely no problem with some merchant PC who has four hunters/guards working for him, an apprentice, and political ties to "soothe" with bribes and gifts crafting 800 times in a 24 hour period for weeks on end and having some coins in the bank but using most of their wealth to fuel the economy at multiple levels and basically CREATING plots/jobs/storylines/a player to player economy in the game.
There is a huge difference. One of those adds a ton to the game and in my mind is WHY merchants are "craft everything animals" and the other makes you a useless asshat.
Merchants = Mini-Dungeon-Masters/Quest-Givers in my opinion. (Again, my opinion, that is how I played both of the merchants I have ever played, I'm not trying to force you to, though I wish you would.)
Quote from: Incognito on April 11, 2013, 06:12:00 AM
Instead of relying on Staff to ferret out indie merchants who are disrupting one or more GMH's interests with mass flooding of shops - an easy and effective IC solution would be for GMH leader PCs to designate one or more persons to keep an eye on the marketplaces and if found necessary, have them "take care" of the indie merchants. This could be in the form of a warning, threat, absorption into the clan itself or in extreme cases even a quick contract to the city's shadier institutions who offer such services.
Hehe, I had this happen to one of the only two merchants I have ever played.
Salarr took me out in the middle of a tavern. Good times. :)
Quote from: Desertman on April 11, 2013, 10:01:27 AM
Here is my thing....
I have a problem with some merchant PC crafting 800 times in 24 hours for weeks on end and then sitting on a huge horde of coins in the bank that they do nothing with. They just like, "being wealthy".
I have absolutely no problem with some merchant PC who has four hunters/guards working for him, an apprentice, and political ties to "soothe" with bribes and gifts crafting 800 times in a 24 hour period for weeks on end and having some coins in the bank but using most of their wealth to fuel the economy at multiple levels and basically CREATING plots/jobs/storylines/a player to player economy in the game.
There is a huge difference. One of those adds a ton to the game and in my mind is WHY merchants are "craft everything animals" and the other makes you a useless asshat.
Merchants = Mini-Dungeon-Masters/Quest-Givers in my opinion. (Again, my opinion, that is how I played both of the merchants I have ever played, I'm not trying to force you to, though I wish you would.)
+1
If you wanna make sids. Spend sids on plots! DO IT!
Quote from: Desertman on April 11, 2013, 10:01:27 AM
Here is my thing....
I have a problem with some merchant PC crafting 800 times in 24 hours for weeks on end and then sitting on a huge horde of coins in the bank that they do nothing with. They just like, "being wealthy".
I have absolutely no problem with some merchant PC who has four hunters/guards working for him, an apprentice, and political ties to "soothe" with bribes and gifts crafting 800 times in a 24 hour period for weeks on end and having some coins in the bank but using most of their wealth to fuel the economy at multiple levels and basically CREATING plots/jobs/storylines/a player to player economy in the game.
The ends justify the means?
Quote from: flurry on April 11, 2013, 03:20:35 PM
Quote from: Desertman on April 11, 2013, 10:01:27 AM
Here is my thing....
I have a problem with some merchant PC crafting 800 times in 24 hours for weeks on end and then sitting on a huge horde of coins in the bank that they do nothing with. They just like, "being wealthy".
I have absolutely no problem with some merchant PC who has four hunters/guards working for him, an apprentice, and political ties to "soothe" with bribes and gifts crafting 800 times in a 24 hour period for weeks on end and having some coins in the bank but using most of their wealth to fuel the economy at multiple levels and basically CREATING plots/jobs/storylines/a player to player economy in the game.
The ends justify the means?
I think the point is that crafting 800 things in 24hrs will not leave much room to create those plots.
As for how I would view them, they are little replenishing treasure boxes, not mini-dungeon masters, IMHO.
Quote from: Twilight on April 10, 2013, 03:53:04 PM
I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week. Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items. Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.
I really like this idea.
I mean, for companies to stay in charge of their monopolies for 3+ centuries, they aren't doing it solely based on the strength of their business acumen.
It also makes dealing with this problem something that can be handled player-to-player and create more action.
Quote from: Erythil on April 11, 2013, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Twilight on April 10, 2013, 03:53:04 PM
I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week. Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items. Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.
I really like this idea.
I mean, for companies to stay in charge of their monopolies for 3+ centuries, they aren't doing it solely based on the strength of their business acumen.
It also makes dealing with this problem something that can be handled player-to-player and create more action.
I agree with this. When i played a GMH family member. I tried to pay as close attention to the markets as possible. But it was neigh impossible sometimes.
Quote from: Erythil on April 11, 2013, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Twilight on April 10, 2013, 03:53:04 PM
I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week. Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items. Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.
I really like this idea.
I mean, for companies to stay in charge of their monopolies for 3+ centuries, they aren't doing it solely based on the strength of their business acumen.
It also makes dealing with this problem something that can be handled player-to-player and create more action.
I could see a whole new meaning for Kadian Fashion Police™
Quote from: Fredd on April 11, 2013, 07:02:52 PM
Quote from: Erythil on April 11, 2013, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Twilight on April 10, 2013, 03:53:04 PM
I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week. Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items. Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.
I really like this idea.
I mean, for companies to stay in charge of their monopolies for 3+ centuries, they aren't doing it solely based on the strength of their business acumen.
It also makes dealing with this problem something that can be handled player-to-player and create more action.
I agree with this. When i played a GMH family member. I tried to pay as close attention to the markets as possible. But it was neigh impossible sometimes.
Sounds like you need to hire you a burg, merchant, or assassin to do this for you. ;)
The PCs working for you want something to do besides their "one trick" most of the time.
The PCs not working for you are good when you want things to happen that don't easily trace back to you.
Remember: GMH leaders have the same responsibility to fuel the economy as the Indies that are being hated on, if not more so.
Getting your clan/clannies rich is not your only responsibility.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on April 11, 2013, 07:28:01 PM
Quote from: Fredd on April 11, 2013, 07:02:52 PM
Quote from: Erythil on April 11, 2013, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Twilight on April 10, 2013, 03:53:04 PM
I think it would be neat if GMH PC leaders got an automated list every week from the mud that listed out the sdesc of everyone who sold over, lets say 10, items to one of their shops in the region they are responsible for in the last week. Just a sdesc, a number of items, and how much sid the GMH forked over for those items. Not a list of everyone, just a list of those people that did it frequently enough to catch the House's attention.
I really like this idea.
I mean, for companies to stay in charge of their monopolies for 3+ centuries, they aren't doing it solely based on the strength of their business acumen.
It also makes dealing with this problem something that can be handled player-to-player and create more action.
I agree with this. When i played a GMH family member. I tried to pay as close attention to the markets as possible. But it was neigh impossible sometimes.
Sounds like you need to hire you a burg, merchant, or assassin to do this for you. ;)
The PCs working for you want something to do besides their "one trick" most of the time.
The PCs not working for you are good when you want things to happen that don't easily trace back to you.
Remember: GMH leaders have the same responsibility to fuel the economy as the Indies that are being hated on, if not more so.
Getting your clan/clannies rich is not your own responsibility.
Oh trust me, I did. When I would find out who was flooding the markets, I'de hire some independent help.
It would seem that if an organization is paying -protection- then perhaps that is one aspect that what they pay for covers, perhaps there only needs to be a little more paid for the premium coverage. To include protection of the market place.
Just a thought.
While I agree about PC help, it really makes sense that the information should be at the disposal of the House. It just resides with NPC merchants. Engaging PCs to gather incomplete information when the House itself has the complete information seems sort of backwards. Especially if you are consigning some poor PC to watch your shop hours on end.
Assigning some poor PC to watch someone that you -know- is selling a certain amount of volume to your House (after all, selling to your House isn't necessarily impacting your monopoly, its really enhancing it if you can make the spread, so shouldn't necessarily result in reprisal) to see if they are doing sales to others....that sounds much more rewarding for that poor PC.
I've never played an indy merchant before that was not assocaited with some house or clan. The one time I did, it was hard, as it should be. Finding hunters/trusting people that won't kill you/making deals - generally getting supplies and hope you manage to make it another rl day.
It's not easy - not at all. So maybe the rewards are higher? And indy merchants usually do not last for obvious reasons. Also, keep in mind a good indy mercant will spread those hard earned coins around to players that need jobs or to buy supplies. Even if you play alot, you are makng plots to enure the survival of your pc's with other pc's or simply findiing a way to get to point a from point b.
Sounds more like people are upset can't sell their items. Maybe the indy merchant should start making items no one else is making (ie tools, rope - other things that are needed in game but hard to find).