Please use this thread to discuss the karma changes as posted in staff announcements.
Note that the subguilds have already been determined and we are not soliciting ideas for these.
Holy shit!
Click: Do You Want To Know More? Button
EDIT:
I have been waiting for this change for 8 years. Thank you.
Awesome.
Looks very interesting. This looks like something that will help veteran casual players the most, as they will be the ones with karma that are most likely to want initial boosts, and keep their characters long enough to regenerate their karma for the next role they want to play. But I think the standardized karma-awarding criteria will help everyone.
Will this change the maximum karma level now that they can be (temporarily) spent, or will it stay at 8? (Not that this applies to most players, just curious though.)
This looks great for casual players, as well as for making mage classes more valuable and rare. I'm interested to see how this shapes up.
A thought for discussion: Is there a cap to the amount of Karma points a player can accrue? Should there be?
edit: looks like cutthroat beat me to it!
For a minute I thought that my cheese had been moved, but then I realized that it hadn't. ;)
Will we retain the existing scheme for karma-based access to main guilds and races?
Quote from: Delirium on September 12, 2011, 02:47:45 PM
This looks great for casual players,
And this. This, a thousand times. Thank you so much.
Are categories 'longevity' and 'leadership' of less importance to people who aren't interested in high profile sponsored roles? What I'm asking is, are categories independent or do they all add up and then that value is considered.
I think it's the first, but just to be sure.
How will this new approach take current Karma levels into account? Will there be an overall review of the Karma on all active accounts?
Quote from: palomar on September 12, 2011, 02:53:48 PM
How will this new approach take current Karma levels into account? Will there be an overall review of the Karma on all active accounts?
That sounds hellish at best...
Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 02:54:13 PM
Quote from: palomar on September 12, 2011, 02:53:48 PM
How will this new approach take current Karma levels into account? Will there be an overall review of the Karma on all active accounts?
That sounds hellish at best...
Yeah. I never said I thought it was a good idea... I'm wondering mostly because it seems like transition from the old to new system could be a bit difficult. Say, Account Amos has 4 Old Karma. How and when is that reviewed and "calculated" into New Karma? When submitting an Account Notes Request might be a viable option, I don't know.
At first glance? From someone who has spent like.. what? Less than a year and a half in arm? This sounds awesome.
Ah! I've never even used the karma I have. Now I feel like I've wasted it.
If this increases the overall rarity of magick I'm for it I guess. Hard to say, not knowing any specifics. How quickly will karma 'recharge'? Will it stay on the same 0-8 scale? Will players with karma under the current system keep what they've earned? Will the existence of 'magick subguild options' actually make magick more common in-game? (ugh)
Quote from: palomar on September 12, 2011, 03:00:17 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 02:54:13 PM
Quote from: palomar on September 12, 2011, 02:53:48 PM
How will this new approach take current Karma levels into account? Will there be an overall review of the Karma on all active accounts?
That sounds hellish at best...
Yeah. I never said I thought it was a good idea... I'm wondering mostly because it seems like transition from the old to new system could be a bit difficult. Say, Account Amos has 4 Old Karma. How and when is that reviewed and "calculated" into New Karma? When submitting an Account Notes Request might be a viable option, I don't know.
What I would do is consider this a 'beta testing'. Let everyone keep karma at what level they have. People that abuse the system get a wrist slapping in the form of docking a point, people that don't keep on trucking and stand to gain karma.
Most these questions have been asked but I'm going to ask them again.
How important are the criteria, are they equal? Or is one more important then another? Will current karma levels be reviewed? What about special apps? Will the karma max be higher? What about people who, for the most part have no interest in magick, Can they still get higher karma levels? I mean, if you have no interest in playing a mage you cannot really satisfy at least one of the criteria, maybe more, but you still might want the extra karma for all the other nifty stuff.
Does taking a high karma option use that karma so it is not available for the other things or can they be used in conjunction?
Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 03:06:23 PM
Quote from: palomar on September 12, 2011, 03:00:17 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 02:54:13 PM
Quote from: palomar on September 12, 2011, 02:53:48 PM
How will this new approach take current Karma levels into account? Will there be an overall review of the Karma on all active accounts?
That sounds hellish at best...
Yeah. I never said I thought it was a good idea... I'm wondering mostly because it seems like transition from the old to new system could be a bit difficult. Say, Account Amos has 4 Old Karma. How and when is that reviewed and "calculated" into New Karma? When submitting an Account Notes Request might be a viable option, I don't know.
What I would do is consider this a 'beta testing'. Let everyone keep karma at what level they have. People that abuse the system get a wrist slapping in the form of docking a point, people that don't keep on trucking and stand to gain karma.
That might the easiest way to do it. We don't know if the current 8-karma ladder will be kept, though. I guess we'll see.
Well, it's definitely not being kept for 2.0, so I guess now is as good a time as any to throw it in the garbage.
All criteria are not created equal.
For example the 'longevity' criteria we expect will be the one most people get first. It's for sticking around and playing without being a total twink or jerk. We'll be limiting this karma category to only a 1 point maximum. With the other categories no player may get more than 2 points for the same category. ie No matter how awesomely your emote and rp you'll never get more than two points for the roleplay category.
Essentially if you want to be an 8 karma player you will need at some point to 'hit' each category.
I look forward to seeing the subguilds. I think this is excellent, especially for people who want to play mundanes with a little extra uumph, and karma as a reward is good.
Quote from: X-D on September 12, 2011, 03:06:42 PM
Most these questions have been asked but I'm going to ask them again.
How important are the criteria, are they equal? Or is one more important then another? Will current karma levels be reviewed? What about special apps? Will the karma max be higher? What about people who, for the most part have no interest in magick, Can they still get higher karma levels? I mean, if you have no interest in playing a mage you cannot really satisfy at least one of the criteria, maybe more, but you still might want the extra karma for all the other nifty stuff.
Does taking a high karma option use that karma so it is not available for the other things or can they be used in conjunction?
You can't be judged on "longevity", and "leadership" if you're playing a poor beggar in Tuluk with magick abilities. I don't think each quality is going to be expected of each role you play. Doesn't make sense.
Karma will be kept at an 8 maximum, HOWEVER, through special applications an 8 karma character could apply to have up to 3 points of additional karma to spend.
Essentially the special application system will now be focusing on using the skill boost area or subguild areas for altering characters. Special applications are currently limited to guilds/races currently 3 or less above your current karma range. We'll be following through with the same philosophy, if you want to get a few skill boosts or a different subguild and don't have enough karma you will need to special app and ask for a temporary boost of said karma points.
For regen rate we are currently looking at 1 point per month. You will regenerate only to the points of your current karma level.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 03:18:07 PM
For regen rate we are currently looking at 1 point per month. You will regenerate only to the points of your current karma level.
At that rate, a person could roll a sorcerer or psi, once every eight months, assuming they have a full eight karma points. Is this regen rate being placed in the game to cut down on too many high karma roles?
Do you feel by doing this, you may alienate the "magick only" players, who prefer to roll high karma guilds?
We will not be going through and adjusting everyones karma with the new criteria in mind.
What we will be doing is assessing each account when we are looking to award karma. Staff will be expected to note which categories the karma has previously been granted for and note what karma categories are met with the new point allocated.
We will be using the criteria when we are assessing whether to remove karma. We aren't planning to go through each account and start changing karma but if there are issues that come up that cause us to review an account (as happens now) then the karma criteria will be used when removing this karma.
Yes, I don't like it, It means, unless you do things you do not like at all, you will be stuck somewhere between 2 and 5 karma.
If I don't want to play a mage and never have, well, -2 karma, If I play my PCs hard and fast and take breaks from the game, Oops, another -1. If I find no reason to talk with staff other then maybe required things like PK reports, -2. Never played a leader and or don't want to, another neg. Adding to game is total opinion but if you just play you should get that one automatically.
So this is a vast departure from the current system, as I know several players with karma that have never played a magicker before. I sort of agree, and sort of disagree with this. I think it should still be possible for someone who prefers to play mundanes to have maximum karma, as Karma has always represented Staff Trust. On the other hand, I think it would behoove some of veteran players to step outside their comfort zone and try out a Magicker. Further along this path though -- Some people just aren't good at it (me). Does that limit players like myself, who either have an aversion to playing magickers or just...Aren't good at it...From achieving full karma?
1: Once the new system is implemented (if suitable RP is done and if it fits) will existing long-lived PC's have the option (at the cost of karma point) be allowed to one of the new extended subguilds (via subguild change or other method)?
2: Does bumping a 'base skill' raise where one starts out @ or raises the overall cap one can achieve?
3: Any general ETA on this?
PS: I don't know about the magick thing w/ getting karma.. I have 0 interest in playing a gicker but perhaps I should just to like.. familiarize myself w/ it but I'd rather not as I like the mysterious-ness-ess of it.
Quote from: Dakota on September 12, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
1: Once the new system is implemented (if suitable RP is done and if it fits) will existing long-lived PC's have the option (at the cost of karma point) be allowed to one of the new extended subguilds (via subguild change or other method)?
2: Does bumping a 'base skill' raise where one starts out @ or raises the overall cap one can achieve?
3: Any general ETA on this?
I doubt #1 will happen, and i'd loathe for it to happen. As with any kind of karma bump or what not, you gotta wait till your next character to see the benefits.
Quote from: X-D on September 12, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
Yes, I don't like it, It means, unless you do things you do not like at all, you will be stuck somewhere between 2 and 5 karma.
If I don't want to play a mage and never have, well, -2 karma, If I play my PCs hard and fast and take breaks from the game, Oops, another -1. If I find no reason to talk with staff other then maybe required things like PK reports, -2. Never played a leader and or don't want to, another neg. Adding to game is total opinion but if you just play you should get that one automatically.
To play devil's advocate on the mage bit, I think it's completely possible to show an understanding of magick in the game as a mundane character. I like to hope staff wouldn't be absolutely dead-set on only awarding certain karma for magick RP. But this is coming from a player who's only EVER gotten karma from playing mundanes, so that's probably a personal thing.
Overall, I think the new system sounds fabulous and I can't wait to try it out.
If a max-karma player wants to use it to play a psionicist every eight months, IMO let them. Eight months is a LONG time in Armageddon, and I sincerely doubt that someone other than the most casual of players could keep repeated high-level karma PCs alive longer than an eight month period over and over again.
The intent behind these changes is to provide more flexibility with role choices and give more variety to the options available to players, including meeting the repeated call for a method to start a character with more than just base level skills. This will mean that those who wish to play the higher level karma guilds will not be able to play them repeatedly, but the downtime between these classes will not be 8 months. Guild choices will reduce karma down to a 3 point level only. ie An 8 karma player who chooses a sorceror will start their regeneration at 3 points, not 1. If they aren't very good at the role and die before their 5 month regen time is up they can always special app for those 3 points after 2 months when their karma is back to 5.
Note that it is the spending of points for extended subguilds and skill boosts that will reduce karma to the 1 point level.
Longevity
Easy enough to understand.
Good communication
As in, if you are playing a sponsored role or a leadership role for an existing clan and are sending in character reports? Does this mean if you are not playing a sponsored role that you can't get points for this?
Ability to roleplay
Easy enough to understand but it doesn't solve the problem if you're a player who just goes unoticed by staff because you don't play many sponsored or leadership roles for the existing clans. Indy players mainly it appears will have trouble with this.
Proven ability with the Magick system
Understood, but that means players who do not like to play magick roles won't be able to get these points so for them these points will be impossible to earn. Wouldn't this make it harder for them to earn the points to use for non-magick karma roles?
Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
Should be easy enough if you are paid attention to but again, if you aren't playing in a imm ran clan then you may not get noticed which would make it hard to earn these without playing something that you may not want to play.
Contributes to the game
As in, submitting bugs, typos, and ideas for the game? What all is included in this?
Leadership
Again, should be easy enough if you are playing a sponsored role or get into an imm ran clan leader position. Not so good for player clan leaders.
It seems as if a bunch of these are geared toward herding players into staff run clans or having to play roles they may not have any interest in playing in order to earn the karma to do some other things they may want to do. My concern is that you'll have players who prefer mundane, player-run indy clans being at a disadvantage when it comes to karma vs. those who prefer magick or staff run clans. It doesn't mean they deserve it any less but won't get it if they don't play things they might not enjoy.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 03:22:48 PM
So this is a vast departure from the current system, as I know several players with karma that have never played a magicker before. I sort of agree, and sort of disagree with this. I think it should still be possible for someone who prefers to play mundanes to have maximum karma, as Karma has always represented Staff Trust. On the other hand, I think it would behoove some of veteran players to step outside their comfort zone and try out a Magicker. Further along this path though -- Some people just aren't good at it (me). Does that limit players like myself, who either have an aversion to playing magickers or just...Aren't good at it...From achieving full karma?
Hm. I as well have a hard time staying interested in psis and mages, I like my characters to get tortured by the lives they lead, not be traumatized out of the box. I also like chopping things up with bone swords. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't give it another shot someday, but, what if I just want to play mundanes all the time?
There are also those who are averse to official clan leader roles due to time constraints or similar, but I like to think that we still add to the game by stirring up plots for others. How broad is the definition of 'leadership' when considering karma? Does it include frequently involving other players in plots, or does it strictly mean heading up a clan?
Yes, this does mean that not everyone will get 8 karma but the fact is that this is true even now.
8 karma players are not the norm and we do not intend them to be the norm. What we want to do is open up the special application area a little more to help with this. If you can get to 5 karma you can play an 8 karma role with a special application.
Question. I saw mention in the post about subguilds for those wishing a path to Magick?
Does this mean something along the lines that someone with 2 karmas points can throw rukkian spells on a warrior?
Keep in mind, I actually stand to benefit from this, as I have at least 6 of the 7 criteria covered:) Well, maybe only 5 depending on the staffer.
But it still seems to me that Arm as an RP mud should be placing most weight on a persons ability to RP. And it really should not matter what they RP or even how long. And it seems rather lame that you very easily could and likely will have AWESOME Roleplayers forever stuck at 1-3 karma, meanwhile lackluster roleplayers can easily hit 6.
Oh, and when should I ask for a review?
For earning karma there are a few things to point out:
Note that the Leadership karma is for leadership, not clan leadership. There are many ways to show leadership in game that do not involve being in a formal clan group or in a traditional leadership role.
I'm going to change the title of the category on magick use. It is possible to get a point in this category without playing a magicker. There are definite societal norms and stigma that come with playing or playing around a magicker. Understanding these norms and showing this via roleplay goes a long way to showing staff that you understand the game world, this is what we are looking for with this category.
It is possible to achieve level 8 karma without playing a magicker or being a leader, but it may be harder to show staff the depth of understanding, roleplay and responsbility.
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 03:38:30 PM
As in, if you are playing a sponsored role or a leadership role for an existing clan and are sending in character reports? Does this mean if you are not playing a sponsored role that you can't get points for this?
I doubt it. I once got a positive account note for sending in reports on a non-leadership, non-sponsored
* PC.
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 03:38:30 PM
Ability to roleplay
Easy enough to understand but it doesn't solve the problem if you're a player who just goes unoticed by staff because you don't play many sponsored or leadership roles for the existing clans. Indy players mainly it appears will have trouble with this.
I mostly play indies, and I can tell you this is not the case.
Quote
Proven ability with the Magick system
Understood, but that means players who do not like to play magick roles won't be able to get these points so for them these points will be impossible to earn. Wouldn't this make it harder for them to earn the points to use for non-magick karma roles?
I agree here. I'd like to see this amended to, "Proven RP with the magick system." Some sorcerer emotes a cantrip of lighting a flame from his finger? Your commoner should feel scared (usually).
Quote
Leadership
Again, should be easy enough if you are playing a sponsored role or get into an imm ran clan leader position. Not so good for player clan leaders.
If amended to, "Leadership, or working well with leaders" it can be corrected. It's just as important that someone in a clan, fit in it realistically, as it is for the leader to be available, and get plots moving.
Quote
It seems as if a bunch of these are geared toward herding players into staff run clans or having to play roles they may not have any interest in playing in order to earn the karma to do some other things they may want to do.
Come on, that's not fair to staff.
I am excited for this change, it sounds very interesting.
Very refreshing change, in my opinion. :D
Bacon - this is not the case at all. Please see my previous post.
I think this will be awesome for off-peak players. I've long considered special apping characters with even just slight boosts to certain skills, but I always felt like special apping for something I could achieve through grind time in the game was kinda silly.
SO COOL.
Also, is there an estimated point in which this will go active? If someone is in-between characters and might want to "beta test" the new system, could we possibly request to do that? Or is it expected to go live before too long at all?
I like it a lot. All of it.
Quote from: janeshephard on September 12, 2011, 03:45:49 PM
Quote
It seems as if a bunch of these are geared toward herding players into staff run clans or having to play roles they may not have any interest in playing in order to earn the karma to do some other things they may want to do.
Come on, that's not fair to staff.
I think it's a reasonable conclusion one might come to when reading how those things are layed out. I don't see how that statement was unfair to anyone, I should've probably worded it as a question which is how it was intended more to be.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 03:44:44 PM
For earning karma there are a few things to point out:
Note that the Leadership karma is for leadership, not clan leadership. There are many ways to show leadership in game that do not involve being in a formal clan group or in a traditional leadership role.
I'm going to change the title of the category on magick use. It is possible to get a point in this category without playing a magicker. There are definite societal norms and stigma that come with playing or playing around a magicker. Understanding these norms and showing this via roleplay goes a long way to showing staff that you understand the game world, this is what we are looking for with this category.
It is possible to achieve level 8 karma without playing a magicker or being a leader, but it may be harder to show staff the depth of understanding, roleplay and responsbility.
Okay, that clears some things up. The way it was worded, it is rather unclear in those areas and that's why I was asking. Perhaps break down each of the criteria as to what is included in each?
I like the idea. Probably wont ever be affected by this new system. Though I do hope that it brings with it more strict adherence to documentation.
I think it is important to note that the base reason for karma has not changed. It is still an indication of the trust that staff has in a player. What we have done is listed categories that we can go through to judge if we trust the player in regards to those areas. If staff do not trust you to roleplay accordingly in certain situations, if you are not communicating with staff etc then you will not reach the full karma level that is available.
You don't need karma to play armageddon, but if you do wish to have karma these are the areas that we are looking at.
Still wanna know when we should ask for review under new system.
You can ask for a review whenver you wish by submitting a request for account notes. Please note that it is not necessary to ask for a review, we are not retroactively changing anyones karma level. If you ask for a review be prepared that it may not go as you wish and could result in a karma drop.
From my experience, this seems to roughly be the way karma was being awarded already, just that different staff considered it differently. Now it's just being applied more systemically. The bigger change here seems to be the ability to get advanced start, and the paying system.
I'm curious how much, if any, of this system would be automated.
It sounds high maintenance, which wouldn't bode well for player-staff nag factor.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 03:59:38 PM
You can ask for a review whenver you wish by submitting a request for account notes. Please note that it is not necessary to ask for a review, we are not retroactively changing anyones karma level. If you ask for a review be prepared that it may not go as you wish and could result in a karma drop.
Whoa! Could it also go the way we do wish and get a karma bump, as was the case in the past? That seems a little threatening...
It could! But I want to be sure that if you're asking you know it can go either way. There's no take backs!
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 04:01:44 PM
It could! But I want to be sure that if you're asking you know it can go either way. There's no take backs!
reroll karma undo
How many new subguilds are being added?
QuoteIt seems as if a bunch of these are geared toward herding players into staff run clans or having to play roles they may not have any interest in playing in order to earn the karma to do some other things they may want to do. My concern is that you'll have players who prefer mundane, player-run indy clans being at a disadvantage when it comes to karma vs. those who prefer magick or staff run clans. It doesn't mean they deserve it any less but won't get it if they don't play things they might not enjoy.
This seriously pisses me off.
The Staff does everything they can to watch over everyone they can at any given time. It is NOT their fault if you choose to walk uncommon paths and don't send in reports. How the fuck are they supposed to know about something that doesn't seem to want to be known about, when they have 80 other irons in the fire at any given time?
If an indy player, ANY indy player, mundane or magickal, makes regular reports and puts up a sign saying "Hey, notice me, I exist!" then they'll receive attention, even if it's just silent watching. If they don't, THEN, and only then, will they be at a "disadvantage."
I <3 these changes so, so much.
Quote from: Malifaxis on September 12, 2011, 04:04:53 PM
QuoteIt seems as if a bunch of these are geared toward herding players into staff run clans or having to play roles they may not have any interest in playing in order to earn the karma to do some other things they may want to do. My concern is that you'll have players who prefer mundane, player-run indy clans being at a disadvantage when it comes to karma vs. those who prefer magick or staff run clans. It doesn't mean they deserve it any less but won't get it if they don't play things they might not enjoy.
This seriously pisses me off.
The Staff does everything they can to watch over everyone they can at any given time. It is NOT their fault if you choose to walk uncommon paths and don't send in reports. How the fuck are they supposed to know about something that doesn't seem to want to be known about, when they have 80 other irons in the fire at any given time?
If an indy player, ANY indy player, mundane or magickal, makes regular reports and puts up a sign saying "Hey, notice me, I exist!" then they'll receive attention, even if it's just silent watching. If they don't, THEN, and only then, will they be at a "disadvantage."
Completely true. I have received Staff's attention on Indy characters when I make regular reports and just clue them in to what is going on around my character, as well as add bios. You need to put in a little extra work, because, you aren't in a Clan. That's one of the benefits of being in a clan. It's good to realize also that there is an "Independents" clan, so to speak, and they are very willing to eat your brainz.
Also, as Dakota asked earlier, what is the ETA on these changes going live?
Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 04:07:01 PM
Completely true. I have received Staff's attention on Indy characters when I make regular reports and just clue them in to what is going on around my character, as well as add bios. You need to put in a little extra work, because, you aren't in a Clan. That's one of the benefits of being in a clan. It's good to realize also that there is an "Independents" clan, so to speak, and they are very willing to eat your brainz.
Yes, it deserves pointing out that there's a default clan (Unclanned) you are part of if you aren't part of any other clan. It's staffed too just like the other clans. You can send in reports, ask for help with plots, and what not.
Quote from: janeshephard on September 12, 2011, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 04:07:01 PM
Completely true. I have received Staff's attention on Indy characters when I make regular reports and just clue them in to what is going on around my character, as well as add bios. You need to put in a little extra work, because, you aren't in a Clan. That's one of the benefits of being in a clan. It's good to realize also that there is an "Independents" clan, so to speak, and they are very willing to eat your brainz.
Yes, it deserves pointing out that there's a default clan (Unclanned) you are part of if you aren't part of any other clan. It's staffed too just like the other clans. You can send in reports, ask for help with plots, and what not.
I did not realize this existed.
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 04:11:53 PM
Quote from: janeshephard on September 12, 2011, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 12, 2011, 04:07:01 PM
Completely true. I have received Staff's attention on Indy characters when I make regular reports and just clue them in to what is going on around my character, as well as add bios. You need to put in a little extra work, because, you aren't in a Clan. That's one of the benefits of being in a clan. It's good to realize also that there is an "Independents" clan, so to speak, and they are very willing to eat your brainz.
Yes, it deserves pointing out that there's a default clan (Unclanned) you are part of if you aren't part of any other clan. It's staffed too just like the other clans. You can send in reports, ask for help with plots, and what not.
I did not realize this existed.
;D Yes!
It's even already listed as a clan and has been for a very long time? http://www.armageddon.org/ic/#Unclanned
I really like that gaining karma is more quantifiable.
*When an if a karma review is requested, does staff look at the existing points to see what category they fit in?
* Is this something you are willing to let the players in on during said review so that we know what areas staff feels we need work in?
(perhaps as a note beside the staff comment)
for example - Added karma four for his wonderful work as Kissieface Oash. (leadership +1)
Spent his first three days played spamcasting in his apartment without ever leaving or emoting more than once per day. (magick -1)
None of his dwarves ever use capitalization or punctuation. His other PCs do. (-1 racial RP)
Even after 80 Days played, she only uses magick when necessary for the PCs survival. (+1 Magick)
Most of these (like the examples) would be obvious, but some could be quite ambiguous.
Subguilds that master things! <3
That's all I saw. But that makes me happy.
Also, how with the longevity points be handled?
Cutthroat is correct - this isn't a massive change in how we give out karma, these categories are all the areas that we considered previously. This is instead a system which staff can use to ensure that we are consistent in what we are doing.
It will not be automated, it will be as it is now, done by staff members. Karma takes time to earn, if you got karma points two months ago don't put in an account request expecting that you'll get more. Instead you'll likely be told that you were recently granted karma and will be reviewed again once more time has passed.
As others have stated there is not a single character in the game that we consider to be without clan staff. If you aren't in a traditional clan then you are considered an independant and we have clan staff for you. We have a mechanism for you to send in reports and requests just like anyone else in the more traditional roles.
As I mentioned before we won't be going in to details on the different criteria for each category. Doing so will just lead to an endless cycle of debate. The only comment I will make is that the longevity category will not be awarded prior to 1 year of play, as stated previously this is the only category that is restricted to 1 point only.
At this point in time I am not giving out an ETA on the subguild/skill additions to the karma system. This code dependant and is still being developed. The criteria is now being used by staff when granting karma, we have unofficially been doing this for the last few months.
My one concern probably got overlooked in massive scroll... lol.
I read that there will be subguilds for those wishing to persue magick.
now, is this going to be akin to slapping say... A small ammount of rukkian on my warrior?
Or say... Make my rukkian a bit more... Mage-y?
Keep in mind that these are subguild - while they will have a bit more oomph and options than your normal subguilds they are not an additional class. There will be magick type subguild options available, it's up to the players how they combine them. If you have the correct amount of points there is no reason you can't mix an match a mundane guild with a magick subguild or a magick guild with a magick subguild.
Regaining spent Karma points will be automated though, right?
Ah sorry, yes, regaining karma points will be automated and is part of the coding that needs to be completed and tested before this is put in place.
I like how this is all sounding, for the most part - except with two karma points being contingent on 'understanding the magick system.'
I don't see why a player should be penalized for not knowing their mons from their suls. If their PC dies due to their lack of coded experience, why is that a huge problem? None of us powergaming-inclined types are being handed karma for our how well we understand how the mundane skill code works - indeed, that sort of understanding is discouraged. Why ought mage-players receive karma for knowing how the magick code works?
This was edited to be more clear on that point.
QuoteProven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
So, for players that don't like to play magickers, they can still earn this by displaying proper rp in regards to magick.
Understanding magick and its place in the game world does not equate to understanding how the magick code works. Also, note there are 7 categories, all but one category you can -possibly- get 2 points in that category. An ideal player will hit every category, some may not hit every category but may get 2 points in one of the other categories etc. It will not be the same formula for every player.
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 04:56:38 PM
This was edited to be more clear on that point.
QuoteProven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
Okay, this eases my mind quite a bit. The initial wording gave me the impression those two karma points were just for 'knowing how to make your PC cast spells.'
These updates be bangin' brap brap.
I suppose I am selfishly curious about this being allowed for existed characters too but otherwise it looks neat :)
Sorry, we won't be introducing this for existing characters. Trying to change subguilds etc is codedly difficult and would result in everything being reset to starting level, we'd just rather not go there. Once this is implemented it will be for new characters from that point only.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 05:06:14 PM
Sorry, we won't be introducing this for existing characters.
I understand why you don't want to give an ETA on when these changes will go live, but can you give us an idea of what time frame we're looking at? Weeks? Months? I'm thinking of making a new character, but I don't want to blow my idea on it if this is right around the corner.
Will there be a grace period for short-lived characters in which you can immediately recover your karma, or do you still have to wait for your karma to regenerate even if your character was killed with 0 hours played?
Three thumbs up. I am all for things that allow players to make their characters more robust, it looks like it has been well-thought-out, and I always approve of more 'objective' criteria being added to things. But maybe that's just the lawyer in me.
Will it be clearly stated (in an account notes request) which karma points are for which categories? As in FantasyWriter's example.
Seems like that would make sense.
Leadership:
-
Magick:
Displayed proper control and fleshed out his character with the use of magick on Soandso -- Nyr 5/5/12 + 1
Longevity:
Played for three years, and despite conversations with staff, did not store -- Adhira 5/5/12 +2
and so on...
I like this a lot, actually--especially with the clarified categories for karma. I didn't realize until recently that regular reports were something the staff wanted, rather than just overly talkative players. That in mind, I'm definitely going to start sending in regular reports of my character's doings.
Seems like giving which points for which category is exactly the kind of thing Adhira was saying they wouldn't do, with giving out more information about how it all works.
I like the change. My only question is...As an example, in the past, a person might get all their mage options removed for repeatedly spamcasting, and karma adjusted. Or a person might get dwarf removed for playing them really, really badly. In the rating system now, would it be possible to get a ban on karma in one area, lets say magickers, while still gaining karma in other areas? Or is it possible to get negative karma in one area? So, even if the person is a good RP'r and have mad leadership skillz, they have -2 karma in how they send in reports?
What a fantastic change. Awesome guys. Just awesome.
Bear with me because I have to leave for work soon so I didn't have time to read the 79 replies before mine to check and see if this was already answered but ... when we ask for a copy of our account notes will we be able to see which categories we have already "hit" and receives karma from so that we know which ones we should be focusing on for future development?
For example, if I could see that I already had 1 point of karma for longevity, 2 points for proper use of magick in the game world, and 1 point from ability to roleplay ... then I could go: Ah ha! Lay off the mages for awhile an go play a leadership role!
You won't get details on exact criteria karma is awarded for, but you will get an indication of which areas.
ie Awarded karma point for longevity.
Awarded karma for communication.
Thanks! :D
Just to note while we have criteria this isn't play by numbers, we're looking for consistency, trust and all the rest. Playing a magicker and hoping to get the karma points from that isn't a great strategy, I'd recommend on making karma the focus of your gameplay.
As for ETA I really cannot give this at this point in time. We need to have the code thoroughly tested and I cannot say whether that will occur in the next 2 weeks or the next 2 months.
sounds cool, and it may even help with those guild sniffers!
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 06:09:38 PM
...I'd recommend on making karma the focus of your gameplay.
Do you mean you'd recommend against making karma the focus of your gameplay?
To keep the thread on topic:
Hurray. I feel these changes show the staff is listening to what we players have to say. THANK YOU.
Woops, yes exactly what I mean do NOT make karma the focus of your gameplay.
Twilight - staff reserve the right to remove any guild etc for abuse as per usual. There are always extreme circumstances which may require something outside the norm to address them.
I am very excited about the new options that will be available. Despite some player's misgivings (which have already produced some changes...so well done, there!), from what we have seen so far this looks to be a balanced approach to a new karma system--and one that allows for more casual players to enjoy the game. With a (slowly) aging and generally more responsible player base, I see definite advantages to the broader use of karma. In addition, this allows for more players who have been here for the long haul to take advantage of their karma without playing magickers.
This is also a brave move toward a more transparent karma system, which I applaud!
I am looking forward to the new system.
Thank you, Staffers
Morrolan
I think I like this idea, but I'm confused about it so I'm not sure. Can Adhira (or another staffer) break this down for me so I can understand it better please?
Okay - so let's say at the moment, currently, I have 2 karma; which would grant me desert elf, and rukkian/vivaduan, in addition to the usual human, dwarf, breed, city elf, burglar warrior, ranger, etc. etc. and all the existing current subguilds.
wow I figured out an easier way to ask this - here it is, edited:
So now the new change kicks in, and I have my 2 karma, which I've had for the past 3 years.
And I decide hey! I'm allowed to spend points now! So I ask for a skill bump on my next character.
That brings me down to only 1 karma, so I -lose- a point of what I already had, and have had, for the past 3 years, and can't use what I've had for 3 years, for another 5 months or whatever amount was posted (I don't remember what the time frame was)?
And then, if I am granted another karma point in the next few weeks - and THEN the 5 months rolls around, does that mean I now have three points total? Or will the system not realize that the 2nd point I have, after 5 months, includes 1 new point that I was granted a few weeks after I gave one point (out of the initial two)...
ugh even more confused now than before.
Someone slap me. And then answer my question before I confuse myself into a pretzel please :)
Just to clarify for my partially asleep self. (i wake up at the butt-crack of dawn for work so I tend to be tired)
While the subguilds wont be implemented on current pc's, once this goes live, you NEXT account notes/ karma review will be done using the before mentioned guidelines. At that time they will review your current karma/notes and past things, and update karma accordingly?
Second q: Does this mean someone can concievably jump more then one point at once, if they are on a long lived, leadership pc that contributes to the game regularly?
Never doubted that, perhaps I picked some bad examples. I was thinking more lopsided folks, that did well, or even exceptionally well in a couple of areas, but exceptionally poorly in others. There has been a handful over the years I've read about, probably more if you include GDB behavior.
I am on the zero karma forever train, so while it may not apply to me, it is neat to see something like this implemented after so many years of related suggestions coming and going.
Lizzie, I think we get karma given the same way as before, i.e. they are giving you the karma cap.
You spend your current karma, which would regenerate over time. So you might have 3(5) karma, and need to wait 2 months to get back to 5 karma to spend...the imms would only be adjusting your max (5) karma. The current karma regen would be automatic.
I assume you regen karma based starting on when you spend it. So a 5(7) karma player makes a character and boosts skills by 2 karma, so they are 3(7)...a month later they will be 4(7)....a month later 5(7) etc....so they might die four months later and have their maximum possible current karma to spend.
Nope, nothing works the way you have stated, Lizzie.
No matter what you choose you will always have 1 point of karma available. You will never reduce below the 1 karma level.
Your karma level is whatever amount of karma points you have. If you have 4 points of karma you have 4 points of karma. The difference is that you can spend the karma on various options and have it regen over time. If you have 4 karma and choose a delf with 3 skill bumps and then die in 2 weeks you will find that you have only 1 karma point available. If you keep that delf available for 3 months and then die your 3 points will have regenerated and you'll have your full 4 points to use if you wish.
Fredd - we will not be reviewing everyone's accounts for karma. Karma will be awarded as per usual, when account notes are requested and when staff decide that a player has merited karma. Once the new system kicks in you will have points available for spending on the various options.
Twilight - We haven't really given out extra guilds etc for a long time. I joined staff in 2004 and since then I think I've seen that happen once. I don't anticipate we'll be looking to do this as it makes things even more subjective and harder for staff to quantify.
As to jumping multiple points at once please see previous posts. This would be extremely rare, as it is now. Karma is something that takes time, most 8 karma folks took years to get there, this is not likely to change.
Still confusing, I'm not getting the math. At all. I'm not seeing how this is making things easier for anyone, player or staff.
Maybe if we had something like karma plus bonus points...bonus points could be "spent" - meaning, used up, exchanged for the two things Adhira talks about in her announcement post. But karma points remain exactly how they are now.
The reason this would be a concern to me, is that for instance, as I said, a vivaduan is only 2 karma points. If I played for a few years under this system, and earned every possible point they have EXCEPT for the points awarded for understanding magick and its place in the world, why would I be entitled to play a rukkian? Because I show good leadership skills and send in regular reports? What do leadership skills and regular reports have to do with playing a rukkian?
And what happens if I show that I'm AMAZING with the magick side of the world - interact *perfectly* with other mages, and prove that I can play a rukkian better than anyone in the playerbase. But, then I decide somewhere along the way I want a skill bump, and now I'm not allowed to play one for another 5 months? What does a skill bump have to do with my ability to play a rukkian? I'm not any worse at it than I was yesterday.
If I have enjoyed 2 karma points for the past 3 years, I shouldn't have to "spend" either of those points on anything, and lose them for any amount of time. However, I like the idea of earning "bonus" points above and beyond those points I have had all along, to "spend" on "bonus" things. So sure I might have earned 4 "bonus" points, but I can't spend 5 points on stuff. I can spend 4. And continue to enjoy my 2 karma account.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 06:38:11 PM
Nope, nothing works the way you have stated, Lizzie.
No matter what you choose you will always have 1 point of karma available. You will never reduce below the 1 karma level.
Your karma level is whatever amount of karma points you have. If you have 4 points of karma you have 4 points of karma. The difference is that you can spend the karma on various options and have it regen over time. If you have 4 karma and choose a delf with 3 skill bumps and then die in 2 weeks you will find that you have only 1 karma point available. If you keep that delf available for 3 months and then die your 3 points will have regenerated and you'll have your full 4 points to use if you wish.
Okay then that's my concern. I understand it now, and it's definitely a concern. If I've -had- 2 karma all along, have earned it, and enjoyed it, and not abused it, for years..and I earn more than that, and use more for one character, I should still revert back to the 2 I had all along. Not because of the math - the math would indicate that isn't possible. But because I had earned that 2 points for 3 years.
So if I have 4, *to begin with, before you even change this system and implement it*...and get another point, and use 2 of those total 5 points on something, I shouldn't have to give up that 4th point for 5 months. I should just revert back to the initial 4. In other words, you shouldn't have to lose what you started out with. If you started out with +2, then YOUR "zero" should be +2. If you started out with 1, then YOUR "zero" should be 1. Calibration I think is the word I'm looking for. Once you use up what you're allowed to "spend," and your character dies, you should be recalibrated back to whatever you started out with before you got the "extra" points.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 06:42:13 PM
As to jumping multiple points at once please see previous posts. This would be extremely rare, as it is now. Karma is something that takes time, most 8 karma folks took years to get there, this is not likely to change.
Alrighty. wonderful
Now one last thing.
Thank you for sitting here on your comp, answering all of our silly q's in such a timely manner.
I think i've sent this in as a staff kudos once but it bears mentioning again adhira.
you are awesome.
No we won't be changing the system to a bonus point system.
You don't spend points on normal guild options up to karma point 4, so that point is moot. If you want to play a high level guild option such as a sorceror you will end up subject to point regeneration. Your points will reduce, as previously stated, to a minimum of 3 points for normal guild options.
Nowhere did we say that the karma options for normal guilds would change. If you have two points you have the two point options open to you.
So thats why mine never changes, I never ask for account notes.
Hey, can we get a review without account notes?
And still, I'm not agreeing with this system.
So, Somebody has say 5 karma, they make a ruk, add nothing extra. How much karma do they lose? Two?
If so, alright, the ruk lasts for 2 weeks. They now have only 3 karma, They can play another ruk or HG and not lose more karma, But they cannot play a 4 or 5 karma guild even though they technicly have the karma for it and played something lower to begin with. But instead, they have to either play something they don't want to play or sit around without playing for who knows how long till the karma regens back to the level where they could play that whiran or whatever.
Also no, we won't be implementing a 2 tier system where if you happend to earn karma before the system came in you never have to spend those. Everyone will be on the same karma system. Consider it a perk that you get to start with karma rather than a zero point reset.
So
Anything at or below 3 karma, assuming you do not spend any on skills etc, Costs you no karma, even if you have say 8 karma?
Correct.
I don't think you're spending on guilds, or on normal subguilds. The only two options listed are spending on "extended subguilds" and skill boosts.
From what I've seen in this thread, this is how it seems like it will be working:
Say you have K karma.
Guilds are free, but you still need to meet a karma requirement for some (the current method).
Normal subguilds are free.
You have K - 3 points to spend on extended subguilds. If that's 0 or less, you don't qualify for extended subguilds. Thus, you need 4 karma to buy the first extended subguilds.
You have K - 1 points to spend on skill boosts. If that's 0 or less you don't qualify for skill boosts. Thus, you need 1 karma to buy a skill boost.
If you spent X points, you get them back 1 at a time, once per month, until you're back to K karma.
I hope that's right, but from what I'm reading from Adhira in this thread and the staff announcement, that's how it seems to be.
I'm so excited for this. The answer to my prayers since being stuck in the casual zone as of late. I can't wait for it to be in effect!
Nope, She just said, 3 and lower on guilds/races is free, above costs.
Also, Adhira, what about the other only slightly off topic question? Can you get a review WITHOUT asking for account notes?
Quote from: X-D on September 12, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
Nope, She just said, 3 and lower on guilds/races is free, above costs.
Also, Adhira, what about the other only slightly off topic question? Can you get a review WITHOUT asking for account notes?
Heh that's why I don't ever ask for a karma review. I'm too chicken to ask for my account notes. I'd really rather not see them. But a karma review might be useful.
Yes, as per usual staff can review accounts as they please. Anecdotally staff usually do this when a pc dies, when there are player complaints, when you do really awesome things, when they have an itch.
Cutthroat you are close to right, but not quite.
Key points
- Karma will never reduce below 1 point
- Karma guilds at points 1, 2 and 3 do not incur any cost. Choosing one of these guilds will not make you 'spend' karma point.
- Karma guilds at 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 will incue a cost to varying degrees. Karma will never drop below 3 points when creating a higher level karma character.
- Karma points can be spent on skill boosts. 1 point will equate to 1 'mastery' level. You may not boost a weapons skill more than 2 mastery levels. You may not boost offense and defense.
- Karma points can be spent on extended subguild options. These will be available at varying point costs.
- Karma points will regenerate at 1 point per month after they are 'spent' up to the full amount of karma on your account.
Will I have to hire a karma accountant? What are the penalties if I file my karma return late?
I appreciate that the staff is working to have a standardized and more clearly understood approach to the karma system. While it's not necessarily the exact set of criteria I would have come up with I don't think it is going to retract anything from the game and hopefully encourage people to behaviour that will add to it. My only hope is that people play to make the game fun, not play to earn karma that they believe will make it fun for them. Fun is my only criteria. If your pc isn't fun, you don't get shit from me. Because that's all I really have to give anyways, shit.
It seems like a lot of thought went into this. Thanks.
At least I will get 1 karma for longevity.
When you say Boost a skill to a mastery level what do you mean?
Does it boost a skill to Master level and then you can boost it to some other master level?
Or is it one boost to journeyman then another to advanced and another to mastery?
Ah, that makes sense, Adhira. The part about the guilds costing points wasn't entirely clear in the staff announcement post, though it seems like a good way to keep rare things rare. I stand corrected!
Quote from: Titania on September 12, 2011, 07:15:22 PM
At least I will get 1 karma for longevity.
When you say Boost a skill to a mastery level what do you mean?
Does it boost a skill to Master level and then you can boost it to some other master level?
Or is it one boost to journeyman then another to advanced and another to mastery?
I think one point boosts one level. So going from Novice to apprentice, then to journeyman, then to advanced, then to master at the start of play would cost 4 points.
Cutthroat is correct with the mastery information.
Also yes, the guild cost was not clear, sorry about that, the eventual webpage with karma information we'll be sure to make that clear.
Ok, this is perhaps a silly question, but--what about the possibility of a cumulative combo?
I apply for additional points and make a half-giant rukkian, as an extreme example, with two skill boosts. Would that count as 7 points?
Stop making my head hurt. ;D
In your example that would be two points. But, I'm not going to keep answering these kinds of questions on possible character builds, character application will make it pretty clear what options are available as you build your pc. We wil lhave helpfiles available at the time, this should help with this.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 07:25:06 PM
Stop making my head hurt. ;D
Sowwy. :) Ok, I totally understand now. Thank you, Adhira!
Taven's Understanding of the New Karma SystemHow Karma is AwardedKarma is awarded on a mix of the following categories:
- Longevity - This is how long you've been playing the game, without doing something bad. If you've been playing ages, you get points!
- Good communication - This is being clear and polite when communicating with staff, and making an effort to do so as needed or regularly
- Ability to roleplay - This is more then just emoting, but is taking the game world into account. It may also mean playing in more then one location, and having a variety of character types (IE, not all your characters have the same personality and guild)
- Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world - You do NOT need to play a magicker for this. This means rather that you understand how magick is viewed in society. You don't go around treating gemmers like normal people for no reason, and you don't talk about how awesome magick is in Tuluk (more complex, but you get the basic idea)
- Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures - This could be about understanding how Tuluk is subtle, or how elves and breeds are perceived in the world. It might be also playing a good character of a specific race or in a specific culture (for example, an elf doing tests of trust, etc)
- Contributes to the game - This could be a variety of things. Does your character add to the game, either by making plots or by providing people with interesting RP? Are you as a player contributing (for example when staff has calls for submissions)? That sort of thing.
- Leadership - This is for leadership in general, not clan leadership. If you are a low level nobody but plan a lot of events for your clan, or an indie who works to lead and coordinate, that would count
You won't get details on exact criteria karma is awarded for, but you will get an indication of which areas (for example "Awarded karma point for longevity"). While you can special app to have an addition 3 points of karma if you hit the maximum, the maximum will still continue to be 8 points. Any of the above categories can have upto two points, except in logevity, where you can only have one (
updated for accuracy). Karma will be reviewed when players request their account notes (although it can also be reviewed at staff discretion). It will be possible to lose karma or gain it, so be aware of this before requesting account notes.
Karma Spending DetailsThings that Do Not Cost Karma
- Karma guilds at points 1, 2 and 3 - These do not incur any cost. Choosing one of these guilds will not make you spend any karma points
Things that Do Cost Karma
- Extended Subguilds (point cost varies) - this includes magick subguilds, and mastercraft subguilds (such as mastercrafting in tailoring)
- Skill Bumps (one point per level bump) - You spend karma to raise a starting skill. You may not boost a weapons skill more than 2 mastery levels. You may not boost offense and defense.
- Guilds at the 4-8 Karma ranking (point costs varies, karma level will not drop below 3 points) - This would be Whirans, Krathi, Elkrosians, Drovians, Sorcerers, and Psionicists
Think of it like an Armageddon prompt item (stamina, hp, or mana points). You might have 6/6 Karma, and then spend 3 to play a magicker. You now have 3/6 Karma, and will regenerate the karma spent at one point per month, or three months. If your "scores" (IE your karma ranking) gets better, this is reflected in your Karma points. You might then have 7 Karma. Karma regenerates while you are playing, naturally over time. However, if your karma PC dies before your points are regenerated, you will not have them to spend. You will never go below 1 karma point (think of it like if these were stun points, you'd never pass out).
Old characters will not be adjusted for new guilds, and are stuck being what they are. There is no ETA for the karma change.
Let me know if any of the above is incorrect, please!
Questions
- In which category of karma grading can you only have one point in?
- Do you spend karma on races, or only guilds?
- Can you spend skills to boost the cap of a skill, rather then changing what level you start with?
- If you spend enough points to master a skill, you automatically branch it off (assuming it branches), right?
- When will we get to hear more about the extended subguild options? These sound pretty awesome.
Quote from: Taven on September 12, 2011, 07:28:53 PM
Things that Do Cost Karma
Looks good Taven. Just don't forget: Muls cost karma too. ;)
•In which category of karma grading can you only have one point in?
Previously mentioned - longevity.
•Do you spend karma on races, or only guilds?
Karma spent is on races and guilds. ie Muls will be chosen with a karma 'cost'
•Can you spend skills to boost the cap of a skill, rather then changing what level you start with?
Skills cannot advance beyond the skill cap for the guild.
•If you spend enough points to master a skill, you automatically branch it off (assuming it branches), right?
Skill bumps will not auto branch you.
•When will we get to hear more about the extended subguild options? These sound pretty awesome.
I haven't decided. Most likely this will be once I've created the helpfiles. As for any guild/subguild type information we won't be discussing anything beyond what is included in the helpfiles.
Question related to skill bumping:
If you requested a bump to ride, for example, and the guild's cap was JM, would your cap AND skill immediately improve to advanced, or just your cap hit advanced and your character would have to work their way up to the new cap?
There will not be an option to bump something beyond the cap for your guild. Guild caps will not be changeable with this system.
Quote from: Taven on September 12, 2011, 07:28:53 PM
- Leadership - This is for leadership in general, not clan leadership. If you are a low level nobody but plan a lot of events for your clan, or an indie who works to lead and coordinate, that would count
hope sooooo
I think this is a great change as well, especially for the more casual players (which I'm trying very hard to -not- be :'().
It sounds like it's taking a lot from the system that was talked about for Arm 2.0, so I'm guessing this is a way of testing that out ahead of time. I know there was a lot of concern about increasing the frequency of magick through hybrid-guild characters (I'm among the concerned), but I do like how it's being tied to karma now, especially with the extended period for point regeneration.
Thought this might be useful for you guys reading the thread and thinking about the points and what not:
Quote from: Ye Olde Karma Chart
1 karma - desert elf
2 karma - water and stone elementalist
3 karma - half giant
4 karma - wind and fire elementalist
5 karma - lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma - void elementalist
7 karma - mul
8 karma - psi and sorcerer
when this get implemented i'm going to make a fire ball assassin in ur face.
no seriously.
My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.
Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.
Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.
This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?
Yes, there may be points of contention with this system. But there are points of contention now.
As always awarding karma is at the discretion of staff.
I've no doubt that there will be a learning curve here for players and staff alike. This may result in some changes to the system as we go. Already today, due to player feedback we've adjusted the category names slightly, this is a good thing. As we get the code in place and working we'll be able to give you a better idea of how exactly it will work, for now you have the blueprint we're working on. When we have everything firmly in place the webpage will reflect exactly how the system will work.
That is actually a point I agree on.
Longevity, I got that.
Good communication Alright, I'm not great on that but I don't forget the needed reports, 1 point
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. And gotten my share of kudos There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Helped with many docs six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.
Where's my nilazi, kthx.
Edited for me:)
Player view - Staff view. There will likely always be a difference.
True enough.
And so, as you said.
QuoteYes, there may be points of contention with this system. But there are points of contention now.
As always awarding karma is at the discretion of staff.
So, in the end, no matter what is posted on how karma should be awarded..or not, all it takes is a single staffer not liking you or your play for whatever reason to see you stuck in the karma limbo for all time.
Which makes me wonder why you even bother posting such things.
I mean really.
Hey, this is the official karma reward system...Oh, but we don't have to follow it.
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 07:38:22 PM
•In which category of karma grading can you only have one point in?
Previously mentioned - longevity.
Sorry, I missed this somewhere in the pages. Thanks for recapping it! :)
Quote•Can you spend skills to boost the cap of a skill, rather then changing what level you start with?
Skills cannot advance beyond the skill cap for the guild.
Okay, so something like a master tailor like was mentioned in the announcement would be an actual extended guild option, rather then something you spent points on to get it to be master. I think that's reasonable, considering there are some skills that you don't want maxed in some guild combinations, for the purpose of game balance.
Quote•If you spend enough points to master a skill, you automatically branch it off (assuming it branches), right?
Skill bumps will not auto branch you.
Okay, so let's say I want to spend a bunch of skills to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?
Also, can you do master crafting item submissions right away, if you app a PC who starts out with a crafting skill at master?
Quote•When will we get to hear more about the extended subguild options? These sound pretty awesome.
I haven't decided. Most likely this will be once I've created the helpfiles. As for any guild/subguild type information we won't be discussing anything beyond what is included in the helpfiles.
I vote sooner rather then later, because I am curious and this sounds really neat. As to the information provided, it sounds like the normal rules on discussing any guilds, so nothing new there. :)
I'm far too much of a coder:
If you make a spec app and it's accepted... say you get a nilazi and you have 4 karma. I assume that taking it will drop available karma to 3?
Quote from: X-D on September 12, 2011, 08:24:25 PM
So, in the end, no matter what is posted on how karma should be awarded..or not, all it takes is a single staffer not liking you or your play for whatever reason to see you stuck in the karma limbo for all time.
Which makes me wonder why you even bother posting such things.
I mean really.
Hey, this is the official karma reward system...Oh, but we don't have to follow it.
And thus, the staff vs player circuit continues, just a new race track. X-D gets it. 8)
Actually having a system makes it less likely that a single staffer will bork your karma forever more. Staff will follow the system, it's there for us to use. But it is up to staff to decide if you meet the criteria, not up to players to tell us they meet them. Staff's viewpoint is what will be used when making decisions on karma. Staff's viewpoint will be based on the criteria we have for each of the categories that we have identifed. By listing the categories we hope that at least players will have better idea of what staff is looking at when we are awarding karma. Believe it or not we want to make things better for players, not worse, and we want to make sure that they're not subject to the whim of one person.
If you don't like what I post then feel free to ignore it and continue on as you have been. Posting snarky comments in response is not going to make things any different.
Well, there seems to be a misunderstanding of official staff guidelines vs. a checklist of sorts for players.
A checklist is what this idea is not. Instead, it seems to be a means of controlling staff members over the possible reasons to reward karma. Karma will be rewarded up to two times for any of these reasons, except for longevity where it will be rewarded once. It's not about proving you are good at a certain point of criterion, it's about staff seeing how well you are matching up with it over the months/years.
In other words, it's not "I do this, this and this great. Staff even said so. I can has mul?"
It's about staff being able to say, we are giving you +1 karma, and this is why: (one of the listed reasons) as opposed to a bunch of reasons at once or vague reasons.
And I suspect they released this information because players long ago were calling to see the staff side of things. I far prefer this method, where Adhira has been very patient with our queries, vs. the system suddenly and secretly changing.
Not meant to be snark Adhira. At least mine was not.
The posting of the way karma is to be working, at least as far as getting it got my hopes up that it was to be more fair and be looked at more often. Because Several of the things on the list I really do qualify for, and I really do not see how even any of staff can argue the point, though if I thought that was the case, I really would ask for the review, at least to get back some of the karma that I have lost, wrongfully mind you since it was lost in out of context actions. And even though when explained nobody ever argued the point, it was never returned.
But later posts from you after being questioned at least SEEMED to say, No, nothing is really going to change, at least not an actual improvement.
But now you say, Yes, we really are working to make it more fairly awarded...So, I will play wait and see, like I do on many things here, and when you or another staffer posts saying this system is fully in action for the karma awarding I will ask for a review on the matter and see what happens.
In short, If you say you all are really working for the betterment of players then I will take your word for it till shown otherwise.
This sounds utterly brilliant and may well bring a lot more variety to the game. Good stuff :)
Quote from: Majikal on September 12, 2011, 08:09:35 PM
My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.
Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.
Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.
This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?
I think this is a pretty courageous - and excellent - point.
I firmly believe there are longstanding faith issues between players (namely long-term players) and staff that need to get worked out before a system like this will be succesful without raising animosity. We have a line drawn in the sand, and on one side, you have a player that's invested 10 years in Armageddon, and on one side, you have a staffer.
Its entitlement vs. entitlement.
When staff make judgments that players disagree with, and players try to express that disagreement, we are judged by the belief that we are reacting simply because it is a knee-jerk reaction to suffering individual consequences, and that we have little actual interest in the policies of the game.
I believe this is the culture of distrust and assumption of selfishness that permeates the staff view of players. And when a long-term respected player takes a kick from the staff, either to their karma or whatever, the veteran Arm community being a group of friends, we begin to feel like we are all suffering an injustice. Every time a poor decision is upheld to maintain staff credence, it becomes a shared frustration because it is representative of every other time its happened.
Solutions won't be discussed on the GDB, because it is a place of battling rhetoric; there is the belief that we risk too much in speaking candidly, because experience has taught us that dissent is something that affects our IG opportunties. And when a player tries to make their case to staff, we cast our words beyond a veil - it is our word alone against any number of contributing staff members. We have no advocates and no alternatives. Its expected that you don't share your issue with fellow players, or discuss it on the GDB. The staff can speak as a unified voice, while the player must keep their complaint private.
And on the other side...
I've never been on staff, but I can't imagine how demanding and impatient players must seem.
When you're volunteering 20+ hours a week, doing work that's largely just holding ground to keep the game functional and populated, and your efforts remain largely unseen, its probably a heap of hot coals when players start insisting that you're not doing enough to make the world vibrant and active. And everytime players bitch when they get policed about exploiting something in the game for the 100th time, they don't realize that the staff saw the 99 other times and were patient enough to see if the player figured it out for themselves.
Players don't come from the view of status quo, because they simply have no idea how much work it takes to keep things running smoothly, and that staff don't want to spend their time docking karma or forcing storage.
I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.
Sounds mostly awesome. I'd roll a character right now if it were already implemented.
The karma for skill bumps is the improvement I'm most interested in, but... The selected skill is bumped up to the next "level" (apprentice--> journeyman) per point spent? It would be a terrible deal to spend four karma points to get contact and ride up to journeyman. I can't think of many skills that I would expend karma to bump up a single level. The system as it stands, if I understand it, still locks a new character (even if he's 50 IG years old) into sucking at the basics for the first three to five days of playtime.
I suggest that not all skills receive the same bump per karma investment, or that a package for basic competence is offered at a low price.
A side note, if skill bump investment occurs during character generation (opposed to, say, in the Hall), then a person with a single point of karma could use it to scum through the class and subclasses and see what skills are offered.
Quote from: Sunburned on September 12, 2011, 09:23:38 PM
Quote from: Majikal on September 12, 2011, 08:09:35 PM
My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.
Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.
Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.
This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?
I think this is a pretty courageous - and excellent - point.
I firmly believe there are longstanding faith issues between players (namely long-term players) and staff that need to get worked out before a system like this will be succesful without raising animosity. We have a line drawn in the sand, and on one side, you have a player that's invested 10 years in Armageddon, and on one side, you have a staffer.
Its entitlement vs. entitlement.
When staff make judgments that players disagree with, and players try to express that disagreement, we are judged by the belief that we are reacting simply because it is a knee-jerk reaction to suffering individual consequences, and that we have little actual interest in the policies of the game.
I believe this is the culture of distrust and assumption of selfishness that permeates the staff view of players. And when a long-term respected player takes a kick from the staff, either to their karma or whatever, the veteran Arm community being a group of friends, we begin to feel like we are all suffering an injustice. Every time a poor decision is upheld to maintain staff credence, it becomes a shared frustration because it is representative of every other time its happened.
Solutions won't be discussed on the GDB, because it is a place of battling rhetoric; there is the belief that we risk too much in speaking candidly, because experience has taught us that dissent is something that affects our IG opportunties. And when a player tries to make their case to staff, we cast our words beyond a veil - it is our word alone against any number of contributing staff members. We have no advocates and no alternatives. Its expected that you don't share your issue with fellow players, or discuss it on the GDB. The staff can speak as a unified voice, while the player must keep their complaint private.
And on the other side...
I've never been on staff, but I can't imagine how demanding and impatient players must seem.
When you're volunteering 20+ hours a week, doing work that's largely just holding ground to keep the game functional and populated, and your efforts remain largely unseen, its probably a heap of hot coals when players start insisting that you're not doing enough to make the world vibrant and active. And everytime players bitch when they get policed about exploiting something in the game for the 100th time, they don't realize that the staff saw the 99 other times and were patient enough to see if the player figured it out for themselves.
Players don't come from the view of status quo, because they simply have no idea how much work it takes to keep things running smoothly, and that staff don't want to spend their time docking karma or forcing storage.
I think that the relationship between staff and players needs to be more cooperative, and that its good to keep in mind that MUDing is a dying game form - when we lose a player, or staff, thats one person, with years of valuable experience, we're not getting back.
I think this could lead to a dangerous derail. Could you possibly start a new thread with this post Sunburned? I have plenty to say, but don't want to derail this thread.
I'm looking forward to this. The staff themselves seem to be eager to open up a few options, and so long as they are willing and able to resolve serious problems, any system will work just fine.
Finally, I'll be able to app that Thryzn I've always wanted...
As requested by Reiloth...
Derail:http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41936.0.html (ftp://http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41936.0.html)
My question is with this new system and the ability to bump a skill, what about those saps out their myself included that haven't played a certain guild, yet have some karma to spend to bump a skill so it doesn't start out where you have to spend days/weeks/ to get something useful? or would we just have to wait when we roll up another character, or will their be an option in the hall of kings to bump it up like an npc or something?
Quote from: Majikal on September 12, 2011, 08:09:35 PM
I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?
We're getting new subguilds -- and the cost? A karma system with some "at cost" options that regenerate over time.
Thank you staff for the time you put into this, I'd like to see the changes before I comment on this, but MANY thanks for making changes and re-energizing the game.
Want any help writing those help files? :P
I didn't like the concept of spending karma at first, but the potential for so many new character options makes up for it.
I'm looking forward to this
QuoteSo, in the end, no matter what is posted on how karma should be awarded..or not, all it takes is a single staffer not liking you or your play for whatever reason to see you stuck in the karma limbo for all time.
I don't think this was intended as snarky myself but I see as a reasonable point. I believe most players biggest concern regarding karma is personal favoritism of a staffer or prejudice of a staff member in regards to karma. I don't think this system addresses this issue. Although I do see it as a positive step in regards to improving the karma system. Having been with the game for a long time, I know that there are players I may have pissed off out of the game, that got on staff and hold a grudge against me. Or other players who were buddies with someone that gets on staff and get nothing but positive attention in regards to karma, etc. What will be put in place to address/reduce the likelyhood of this happening?
Perhaps there should be a policy in place regarding cycling through which staffers make the decisions regarding karma for each player in turn? I don't know exactly but it is a concern that many players have regarding karma and with the purpose of improving the karma system and player/staff relations in mind, should be given thought to addressing other than: "We're flawless staff and don't do that, we swear." being given as the answer. No snark at all intended but I think it's something that needs to be given thought and discussed in regards to a "karma" system for any game run by human beings.
Edit: And a karma option for extra bacon would be good too. :P Also, not sure which thread this one really belongs in so I'll put it in both.
I hesitate to provide feedback on this, partly due to the fear of reprisal referenced by a previous poster. My passion about this subject surpasses self-preservation, however, and so ...
There are aspects of this plan I like. It always appeals to me when the diversity of options available to players is expanded. New experiences keep things fresh for us, which is good for the health of the game. The new 'expanded sub-guild' idea is fine by me.
What I don't like at all is this idea of karma being 'spent' when we choose guild options which are permanent under the current system. A lot of players have spent years building up reputations, proving themselves to be valuable participants in the process. We've always been told that the granting of karma is not only a show of trust, but a reward, for we are then allowed to play certain restricted roles at our own leisure. No need to specapp and wait, as staff believes you can handle it and do well each time. Under the new system, that will be gone.
Karma and the effort required to earn it is, I believe, devalued under this proposed system. You cash in to play an expensive role, and you'd better hope some newbie doesn't come along and kill it early, because you won't get another shot for months. You may not even be able to play something close to what you lost. In effect, karma becomes nothing more than extra special applications, the guaranteed approval offset by that same maddening specapp wait period - which will look modest compared to some of the 'regen' waits.
I would be happier if the currently permanent options remained so. Perhaps the new choices could function on the currency system, as they expand caps and/or fundamentally change the playstyle of certain guilds (ie warriors with magick).
On a personal level, having the variety of choices that I do is crucial, as I play quite a lot. Like many players, I'm in poor health and have derived benefits beyond measure from having access to much beloved options, particularly after RL stressful character deaths. Yes, I play lots of mages, too. So, I'll not deny bias here. I just hope overall this aspect is considered.
Hopefully, this system change will allow Staff to break down a character's overall place in the world. When you play higher karma guilds, you gain great scrutiny by Staff into your actions. I believe that long-lived rangers should have as much scrutiny as a psion, for instance. Both can achieve a great level of disproportionate power that requires great responsibility to control properly. Unfortunately, such is not the case; the max'd Ranger's motives and explanations of actions will not require as much scrutiny Staffside. Overall -- Psions are a class that are much easier to abuse, and have been abused consistently in the past. A Psion can easily shift another player's experience from great to terrible. They can also enhance the gameworld just as easily, drawing people into fantastic plots. I hope this allows for the Staff to easily keep track of the max'd ranger's activities as well as the special app psion/sorc.
QuoteI believe most players biggest concern regarding karma is personal favoritism of a staffer or prejudice of a staff member in regards to karma. I don't think this system addresses this issue.
After a long time running and a lot of personal experience with it (through discussion and my own accusations and the aftermath), I realize this is a concern for people. But it really shouldn't be. It's an issue that doesn't need to be addressed. As per my post in the derail thread...business relationships are the rule here, not personal ones. If someone appears to have favoritism, it isn't favoritism. They've been doing something that is very good.
Personal favoritism or personal grudges among the staff I'm sure occur from -time to time-, but not often at all, and it seems to get aggressively pushed out of the picture. It doesn't go unnoticed, particularly as more characters are made and differing opinions come around.
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 11:32:20 PM
I don't think this system addresses this issue.
There is no system that addresses refusal to follow the rules.
I like it. The subguild bit will be a great tool for karma+ players to flesh out their characters in interesting (and oft times, difficult to play [see, fun]) ways.
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 13, 2011, 05:14:00 AM
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 11:32:20 PM
I don't think this system addresses this issue.
There is no system that addresses refusal to follow the rules.
(http://ginzoo.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/banhammer.jpg)
Can we all just tone it down until the system goes into place and we see Nilazi's shooting arrows and taking down Meks.?
Let's ride it out and see, nothing here is changing my life, I get on to play and to hell (drov) with whoever doesn't like what I am doing.
Because I (Speaking in general) don't conform to what your norm is, because I don't go bloodthirsty or very gay or mud sexy doesn't mean I can't or don't play the game well. Let's all relax and keep an open mind and see how this turns out.
Personally, I don't see any benefit or detriment as it pertains to me and my character.
My weird and rambling $0.02
Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 13, 2011, 08:16:37 AM
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 13, 2011, 05:14:00 AM
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 11:32:20 PM
I don't think this system addresses this issue.
There is no system that addresses refusal to follow the rules.
(http://ginzoo.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/banhammer.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqLoQiMT6WE
Quote from: janeshephard on September 12, 2011, 03:45:49 PM
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 03:38:30 PM
Ability to roleplay
Easy enough to understand but it doesn't solve the problem if you're a player who just goes unoticed by staff because you don't play many sponsored or leadership roles for the existing clans. Indy players mainly it appears will have trouble with this.
I mostly play indies, and I can tell you this is not the case.
I disagree entirely. I, over the course of fifteen years with this mud, have been in exactly one clan with one character. Every single one of my indie characters went completely ignored (or so it seemed, and was reflected by my account notes, or near complete lack thereof) by staff, regardless of how long lived or well known they may have become. Every single point of karma I have been awared, I
asked for. Now, I haven't played an indie in nearly 3 years so things may have changed, but the past many years tells me they most likely haven't.
Quote from: Bacon on September 12, 2011, 11:32:20 PM
I don't think this was intended as snarky myself but I see as a reasonable point. I believe most players biggest concern regarding karma is personal favoritism of a staffer or prejudice of a staff member in regards to karma.
This doesn't happen. I have been playing for about two years, and I think I get along with staff pretty well. I don't have lots of karma. I don't get characters resurrected left and right. When I wish up it doesn't always get answered right away, or have an outcome favorable to my character. I've had requests rejected, special apps rejected, etc. just like anyone else.
Integrity isn't a problem here.
Quote
Perhaps there should be a policy in place regarding cycling through which staffers make the decisions regarding karma for each player in turn?
Clans have staff rotations. I think that's sufficient.
We're getting a nice upgrade to the game system. Start by looking at it that way.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 13, 2011, 10:28:45 AM
I disagree entirely. I, over the course of fifteen years with this mud, have been in exactly one clan with one character. Every single one of my indie characters went completely ignored (or so it seemed, and was reflected by my account notes, or near complete lack thereof) by staff, regardless of how long lived or well known they may have become. Every single point of karma I have been awared, I asked for. Now, I haven't played an indie in nearly 3 years so things may have changed, but the past many years tells me they most likely haven't.
My experience is the exact opposite: I have earned two karma points in two years. The karma came after playing an indie in each case.
In both cases, I received some good feedback from players with kudos. That may have helped as well -- but I do work very hard on including other players in my RP.
I'm going to repost my questions, since they got lost on the previous page. Thanks for taking the time to address everything, I know a 7-page thread is hard to keep up with. :)
Questions!
1. Skill bumping does not autobranch you. So let's say I want to spend a bunch of karma points to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?
2. Can you do master crafting item submissions right away, if you app a PC who starts out with a crafting skill at master?
Quote from: Taven on September 13, 2011, 11:01:27 AM
I'm going to repost my questions, since they got lost on the previous page. Thanks for taking the time to address everything, I know a 7-page thread is hard to keep up with. :)
Questions!
1. Skill bumping does not autobranch you. So let's say I want to spend a bunch of karma points to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?
2. Can you do master crafting item submissions right away, if you app a PC who starts out with a crafting skill at master?
1.
Probably when you fail your next skill check.
2. The master craft thing is probably account based, so my
guess is yes - if you haven't submitted a master craft recently with another PC.
If I'm not mistaken, I thought that spending karma for the boost only raised the subguild cap not allowed you to start out -at- Master in that skill? Ehhh...which is it? This idea either way has me excited, I've had some crafter type pcs using subguild crafting that I wished I could make more stuff with than the cap allows for.
Quote from: Bacon on September 13, 2011, 11:24:59 AM
If I'm not mistaken, I thought that spending karma for the boost only raised the subguild cap not allowed you to start out -at- Master in that skill? Ehhh...which is it? This idea either way has me excited, I've had some crafter type pcs using subguild crafting that I wished I could make more stuff with than the cap allows for.
That's a bit of a confusing mess, so let me clarify by repeating previous statements : Skills can be raised through using karma points, but not past their normal guild levels. Fighting skills will only be allowed to raise one or two levels. There are, however, going to be new subguild options that you can purchase through karma, and those you will possibly be able to raise to the master levels, allowing craft submissions.
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 13, 2011, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: Bacon on September 13, 2011, 11:24:59 AM
If I'm not mistaken, I thought that spending karma for the boost only raised the subguild cap not allowed you to start out -at- Master in that skill? Ehhh...which is it? This idea either way has me excited, I've had some crafter type pcs using subguild crafting that I wished I could make more stuff with than the cap allows for.
That's a bit of a confusing mess, so let me clarify by repeating previous statements : Skills can be raised through using karma points, but not past their normal guild levels. Fighting skills will only be allowed to raise one or two levels. There are, however, going to be new subguild options that you can purchase through karma, and those you will possibly be able to raise to the master levels, allowing craft submissions.
+1!
Quote from: Bacon on September 13, 2011, 11:24:59 AM
If I'm not mistaken, I thought that spending karma for the boost only raised the subguild cap not allowed you to start out -at- Master in that skill? Ehhh...which is it? This idea either way has me excited, I've had some crafter type pcs using subguild crafting that I wished I could make more stuff with than the cap allows for.
This is incorrect. Skill bumps will make your skill show as the new level, so if you would have started at Apprentice, you would get it at Journeyman with 1 karma point spent. And Dalmeth is correct, you cannot use skill bumps to take you beyond your normal cap for the skill.
Quote from: Taven on September 13, 2011, 11:01:27 AM
1. Skill bumping does not autobranch you. So let's say I want to spend a bunch of karma points to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?
Did we say skill bumping does not autobranch you? If we did, that is incorrect. You can branch new skills through skill gains at character creation. You CANNOT apply skill gains to skills that were branched from skill gains in char generation. So, to use your example, if you applied karma to 'pooper scooper' to master, it would branch 'poop crafting', but you could not apply any karma points to 'poop crafting' to raise it up. That make sense?
Quote from: Taven on September 13, 2011, 11:01:27 AM
2. Can you do master crafting item submissions right away, if you app a PC who starts out with a crafting skill at master?
Yes, if your crafting skill says 'master', you qualify to submit a master craft item. The limit on number of master crafts is per player character, not account, so even if you just submitted a Master Craft with your pc and died, you could do that with your next pc.
First off... Awesome. And thank you for bringing this into Arm 1.0 instead of shelving it for 2.0.
The prospect of new options and far more customization has me drooling at the possibilities. Particularly the ability to choose a mastercraft sub, the lack of which has irked me since my return. I expect, or at least hope, we'll see far more complex characters develop due to this. I imagine within a week some will put together the new magical formula for min-maxing their uber warrior/krathi/whatnot, but it's nothing that doesn't happen already within the game's existing structure. I also expect it'll let players create a lot of the character concepts they'd once have to special app, which should cut down on review and approval time on the staff's part.
In my view the karma awarding system isn't changing all that much, it's simply being formalized into more concrete terms for the player's understanding and the staff's convenience. The same players that would be awarded karma under the old system will likely be awarded under the new system. And those that didn't, likely won't.
I also think the regeneration system will lead to a healthier environment and force some players to play outside their safety zone. Especially if that "safety zone" includes rolling one mul/sorcerer/psion/whatnot after the next. I've gotten the distinct impression that so far many players who hit the higher karma ranks have all but forgotten what it's like to play a mundane.
Really, I only have one issue with this system and it's the following:
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 05:06:14 PM
Sorry, we won't be introducing this for existing characters. Trying to change subguilds etc is codedly difficult and would result in everything being reset to starting level, we'd just rather not go there. Once this is implemented it will be for new characters from that point only.
This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated. There are players who cheer if their characters reach five days old and there are those who cringe when one dies or is stored with less than 80 days played. I think the game needs both, as those who quickly move on to the next character bring something dynamic to the game, while those who play long-lived characters provide an anchor of familiarity and history for the world.
I understand the process would be difficult, but I would strongly suggest some alternative method of dealing with this is examined. Possible ideas could include:
- The ability to request an adjustment for characters who are at least xxx old or have xxx days played, when the system is introduced. Something like 6 months old or 50 days played would be the lowest I'd consider, but it could even be twice that.
- The ability to request an adjustment for characters who were created before the system was introduced, but only x months after it's introduced. For example, you might choose to open up such requests 2-3 months after the system is introduced, letting those who still have characters alive since then, apply.
I can understand not wanting to undertake such manual tweaking for a character who was created a day before the new system and will likely be dead a week after. But a character's longevity should be rewarded, or at least respected, not penalized.
Beyond that one issue... As stated in the beginning, awesome and thank you.
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
Really, I only have one issue with this system and it's the following:
Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 05:06:14 PM
Sorry, we won't be introducing this for existing characters. Trying to change subguilds etc is codedly difficult and would result in everything being reset to starting level, we'd just rather not go there. Once this is implemented it will be for new characters from that point only.
This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated. There are players who cheer if their characters reach five days old and there are those who cringe when one dies or is stored with less than 80 days played. I think the game needs both, as those who quickly move on to the next character bring something dynamic to the game, while those who play long-lived characters provide an anchor of familiarity and history for the world.
I understand the process would be difficult, but I would strongly suggest some alternative method of dealing with this is examined. Possible ideas could include:
- The ability to request an adjustment for characters who are at least xxx old or have xxx days played, when the system is introduced. Something like 6 months old or 50 days played would be the lowest I'd consider, but it could even be twice that.
- The ability to request an adjustment for characters who were created before the system was introduced, but only x months after it's introduced. For example, you might choose to open up such requests 2-3 months after the system is introduced, letting those who still have characters alive since then, apply.
I can understand not wanting to undertake such manual tweaking for a character who was created a day before the new system and will likely be dead a week after. But a character's longevity should be rewarded, or at least respected, not penalized.
Beyond that one issue... As stated in the beginning, awesome and thank you.
The fact of the matter is any sufficiently long lived character will be far better off than a new character. If they really want to play exciting new option A, they will store and do it because it doesn't fit their existing character.
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.
This kind of talk will discourage the staff from tinkering with chargen anymore -- and if indeed there was mass storing, which I highly doubt, it would discourage them even more. I think players should be big enough to take this in stride. I hope they join me and do.
Doesn't it say in the docs that storing/killing off your PC to try out new karma options is a good way to lose karma?
I really don't think a lot of people will store their PCs when this goes live. Perhaps it will tip the scale for someone who is already considering storage for other reasons.
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.
The thing about this system is that it doesn't really do anything to any balance that might have been in place before. A skill at a certain level of mastery is still just as valuable as before, so no one's going to suffer compared to the new kids on that front.
At most, people who chose a crafing subguild might feel left out, but no more than they were before. Honestly, the impulse is a selfish one, and you're never going to get rid of that.
If the staff is wiling to bump up the old subguild crafters to a similar pick from the new ones with appropriate roleplay and a karma cost, that's their decision, and as always, it is subject to whoever is handling your
request submission.
Quote from: Morgenes on September 13, 2011, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
...
The fact of the matter is any sufficiently long lived character will be far better off than a new character. If they really want to play exciting new option A, they will store and do it because it doesn't fit their existing character.
To clarify, I wasn't bringing it up as a "better off" or not issue. I don't think any self-respectable player with a long-lived character will store because they're not "uber" enough. I also wasn't bringing it up as an option for player to create a dramatically different and exiting new character based on their old one. I think they could though, because under the new system they might have been able to create a character who's code better represents their concept. I'll offer an example...
A player designs a character with say warrior guild and picks their subbguild based on the fact it grants tailor. Because that's what they really wanted for their character, a stoic swordsman who makes frilly princess dresses by night for his eight year-old daughter. He hates the fact he'll never be able to mastercraft that pink sandcloth dress with quartz rhinestones, but it's the closest he can come to his concept given the limitations of the system. He could bother the staff for a special app, sure, but for whatever reason he decides not to. The new system is introduced and that player realizes that he could have picked that lovely new MC Tailor subguild and been mastercrafting all the lovely dresses his little girl wants. Sure, his combat skills are "far better off" than any new character, but he's limited in what he can do due to that.
Will that player store? I don't know. As I said, that's one of two possible outcomes, not the only one. But I do feel if he doesn't store, the second outcome will likely happen. He'll feel disappointed that he could have achieved a much closer outcome of his concept than he has available.
In an ideal world, the staff would have a magic wand where after introducing this system, they could automatically judge whether a player's request for an adjustment is justified and keeping in line with their character, and if they fit the time limitations, wave their wand and have it happen all before they have their morning coffee. I realize this isn't the case though and that any time we discuss hand-tweaking characters we're discussing massive amounts of time on the staff's part. I do think however that there are valid concerns on this. As well as that the percentage of the playerbase that this would actually affect is minimal enough, that with strict limitations imposed, a small amount of extra time devoted to it from the staff members would make the transition much smoother. Perhaps, given how dramatically special apps will be reduced, some of that saved time could be offered to accommodate those few characters in special circumstances.
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 02:00:01 PMthat's what they really wanted for their character, a stoic swordsman who makes frilly princess dresses by night for his eight year-old daughter.
;D
I see what you're saying and agree, but I will also offer the caveat that situations like those are gonna be pretty rare, and could probably be handled on a case by case basis. There's also the simple fact that tradition has been to not open that can of worms, because even though the staff tries to be fair, they will inevitably get complaints of favoritism.
Quote from: janeshephard on September 13, 2011, 01:11:20 PM
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.
This kind of talk will discourage the staff from tinkering with chargen anymore -- and if indeed there was mass storing, which I highly doubt, it would discourage them even more. I think players should be big enough to take this in stride. I hope they join me and do.
I'll join ya in being big enough to take it in stride, for what it's worth. But I won't join ya in not discussing it out of fear it might discourage the staff from bringing about new features; I give them more credit than that, and frankly if discussion wasn't sought, this thread wouldn't exist.
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 13, 2011, 01:50:31 PMAt most, people who chose a crafing subguild might feel left out, but no more than they were before.
Bingo.
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 13, 2011, 01:50:31 PMIf the staff is wiling to bump up the old subguild crafters to a similar pick from the new ones with appropriate roleplay and a karma cost, that's their decision, and as always, it is subject to whoever is handling your request submission.
Sure, works for me. I'd just like to see it as a formal decision on the staff's part and not subject to the whimsy of "whoever is handling your request submission". I think it's a concern that could potentially affect enough players, to warrant at the very least an acknowledgment that they'd be willing to consider such a request, instead of us having to wonder whether we should even consider pressing the submit button for fear of upsetting them or wasting their time.
Quote from: Delirium on September 13, 2011, 02:08:50 PMI see what you're saying and agree, but I will also offer the caveat that situations like those are gonna be pretty rare, and could probably be handled on a case by case basis. There's also the simple fact that tradition has been to not open that can of worms, because even though the staff tries to be fair, they will inevitably get complaints of favoritism.
I see what you're saying as well. And you're right on all counts. Theses situations will be rare and should be handled case-by-case. And I understand the staff's position for not wanting to open that can of worms. But by the same token the staff expects me to be big enough to accept the changes in stride without feeling left out, I expect them to be big enough to understand how important this might be to me and my character and at least acknowledge they're willing to hear me out. Whatever can of worms that might open.
The formal decision is that no, we will not be retrofitting any existing PCs when the changes come in.
Quote from: Adhira on September 13, 2011, 02:22:17 PM
The formal decision is that no, we will not be retrofitting any existing PCs when the changes come in.
Fair enough. The change is awesome enough that I think most of us
will take it in stride. But I think the issue was also impacting enough to at least bring up for discussion.
So wait, the fact that my characters last a RL year each on average is finally going to get me some karma?
finally
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 13, 2011, 02:38:38 PM
So wait, the fact that my characters last a RL year each on average is finally going to get me some karma?
finally
Just one.
Meh, the only time staff ever notice me anyhow is if I send in account note requests. I am a bad player.
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.
I've got a character that's only a couple months away from being 4 real life years old. I can tell you that, after finally digesting exactly what this karma system change was all about, my
exact first thought was: "Maybe I should store my character and fire up a high karma one before this goes into effect so I don't lose any points yet." Especially given that I've got a pretty high number of karma points, and I've been playing a mundane guild now for nearly 4 years. I've got a high karma itch that needs some serious scratching and this new system guarantees I won't be able to if I have a high karma character die early on in their life.
These changes are fantastic.
Will all of the extended subguild options be publicly available to review, or will some of them remain secret until unlocked with the appropriate level of karma?
Also, will some sponsered roles be awarded bonus karma points to play with? Such as a Byn Sergaent might get 3 extra karma to spend on their character, to flesh out their 'veteran' status?
Quote from: Akoto on September 13, 2011, 02:04:55 AM
What I don't like at all is this idea of karma being 'spent' when we choose guild options which are permanent under the current system. A lot of players have spent years building up reputations, proving themselves to be valuable participants in the process. We've always been told that the granting of karma is not only a show of trust, but a reward, for we are then allowed to play certain restricted roles at our own leisure. No need to specapp and wait, as staff believes you can handle it and do well each time. Under the new system, that will be gone.
Karma and the effort required to earn it is, I believe, devalued under this proposed system. You cash in to play an expensive role, and you'd better hope some newbie doesn't come along and kill it early, because you won't get another shot for months. You may not even be able to play something close to what you lost. In effect, karma becomes nothing more than extra special applications, the guaranteed approval offset by that same maddening specapp wait period - which will look modest compared to some of the 'regen' waits.
I would be happier if the currently permanent options remained so. Perhaps the new choices could function on the currency system, as they expand caps and/or fundamentally change the playstyle of certain guilds (ie warriors with magick).
Whole heartedly agree. Make the new choices (subguilds and skill bumps) cost karma. Keep guilds karma-cost free. I think the current system has done a good job of keeping mages from running rampant throughout the mud - this feels like an unnecessary penalty. If I've got 7 points of karma, the staff believes me to be responsible enough to play the high karma guilds properly and with good role play. I feel like I'm being penalized now in that, regardless of how long a high karma character of mine may last, I've now got this forced (MANY months, mind you) wait period before I can play another. That's the only thing I don't like.
Either that, or make the karma regeneration period shorter?
I just hate the idea of creating a nilazi, having them die off quickly (maybe I even get the joy of a link dead death!) and am thus forced to wait MONTHS before I can make another nilazi, or some other high karma character? That part of this seems quite lame to me.
Not only that, what about the karma 4 guilds? Two guilds take one karma slot. If I play a whiran and it dies two weeks later I now have to wait to play a krathi because that karma is currently used.
Also, ALL muds that use the karma buy system have a grace period of a week or more before the karma is deducted. Just because of that early death.
Do you plan on putting in a grace period? I mean Hell, if you have karma you don't get newb res anymore. Which was alright before because if you died in an hour or two you simply put in for a carbon copy. But now, you can't even do that.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 13, 2011, 05:28:24 PM
I just hate the idea of creating a nilazi, having them die off quickly (maybe I even get the joy of a link dead death!) and am thus forced to wait MONTHS before I can make another nilazi, or some other high karma character? That part of this seems quite lame to me.
As Adhira mentioned, you can get upto +3 karma awarded via special application. So following your example, you have 7/7 karma and make a nilazi, reducing you to 3/7 karma. Your PC dies by some terrible bad luck. You can special app, get 3 karma, and make a new Nilazi immediately. So you wouldn't have to wait months unless you've special apped a lot in the past.
Quote from: wizturbo on September 13, 2011, 05:37:10 PM
You can special app, get 3 karma, and make a new Nilazi immediately.
No, I can special app and wait for the special app approval process, which may or may not result in me actually playing said character in however long it would currently be taking to get a special app approved. If my special app even gets approved. Right now, I literally
can immediately apply for another high karma character, and be playing the next day.
Quote from: wizturbo on September 13, 2011, 05:37:10 PMSo you wouldn't have to wait months unless you've special apped a lot in the past.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but don't you only get 2 special apps a year or something? How is this anything like being able to make new, high karma characters as often as I please, as it stands now?
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 02:38:27 PM
Quote from: Adhira on September 13, 2011, 02:22:17 PM
The formal decision is that no, we will not be retrofitting any existing PCs when the changes come in.
Fair enough. The change is awesome enough that I think most of us will take it in stride. But I think the issue was also impacting enough to at least bring up for discussion.
Similar to others who've responded, I don't think the policy of no retrofitting will be as impacting as you suggest.
Consider your example - if a player has come up with a concept, I would hope that they had tailored (oh ho) that concept to the limitations of the character system as it was. What would the point have been, other than feeling disappointed right from the start? I don't know about you but unless I'm actually intent on burning a special app I'm not seriously going to consider a character concept that I can't actually achieve due to game/code/IC restrictions, whether that's becoming a master tailor through a subguild or what have you.
Of course, if you had dreamed of something that wasn't possible under the current system and voila, the new system actually makes it possible, well that's only a little different - again, you've only yourself to blame for any disappointment that stems from that. That aside, nobody's stopping a player from revisiting their "fully realized" concept again in the future, under the new system, and if I were in those shoes, I'd actually be happy that it'd even now be possible for me to go there one day?
I'm more concerned about the impact of guild hybridization, which encompasses things like potentially increasing the frequency of magick (what happens when everyone and their dog can throw a spell around?), player-player interaction (increase through more trade/requests for raw goods due to more crafters? decrease through more availability of higher skill craft items being sold to shops, and therefore not having to go visit player merchants/agents/etc? guild sniffing becoming harder?), clan dynamics (will clans still look to hire x guild over y guild, will clans become more or less accepting of things like magick, etc.).
I'm sure the staff have discussed all of those and more before deciding to go down this route, and I assume they've only decided to go ahead because they see a net benefit for introducing the new system. Again, I really think it does benefit casual players the most, which I think is really a HUGE benefit to the game, because this game is hardest on that subset of players. If we can continue to open up the game to casuals as well, I think we'd see a lot of people coming back to play, and many more newer people deciding to stick around after dipping their toes into the sand.
One hope (more than a question, because I know it's already been said the actual skillsets of the subguilds won't be discussed), is that certain intangibles might be included in the new subguild selections. Wilderness/ranger quit, anyone? (it'd be so huge for casuals!)
Guys, it'd be a MAXIMUM wait of like three months. With the Nilazi example. That's not that long.
I make plenty of use of my karma and the regen time doesn't seem that bad. Hopefully it'll make the really high karma classes that much more special. But yeah, an eight karma person could roll up a sorc once every 5 months if they die right away. That doesn't sound bad to me.
I certainly wouldn't allow the opinions of a vocal minority, those who want to limit magicker PCs, to influence the design of this system. It's a few people out of many players who don't post, and when they pipe up, such ideas are almost always laughed at. 'Oh, do we hate mages this month? I thought it was rangers, and bards were last month.' That's been the joke for as long as I've been here.
I'd just like to see the guild and race options remain permanent, as they are now. People earned them through good play, they've potentially had them for years, and they get a great deal of fun and satisfaction out of them. The folks who have this karma are skilled and trusted role-players, the sort who wouldn't typically provoke the minority to call for changes.
As far as the new sub-guilds and other options, I am fine with those costing because they advantageously tweak the character. The current karma races and guilds do not. Let them be the free baseline, with all other modifications costing karma. Everyone wins.
BTW, the Average wait for special apps this year is more then 35 days...just FYI.
Just 3 months...Yes, 90 days is not that long, its only a quarter a year.
/me rolls his eyes
Quote from: Akoto on September 13, 2011, 05:49:36 PM
I certainly wouldn't allow the opinions of a vocal minority, those who want to limit magicker PCs, to influence the design of this system. It's a few people out of many players who don't post, and when they pipe up, such ideas are almost always laughed at. 'Oh, do we hate mages this month? I thought it was rangers, and bards were last month.' That's been the joke for as long as I've been here.
I'd just like to see the guild options remain permanent, as they are now. People earned them through good play, they've potentially had them for years, and they get a great deal of fun and satisfaction out of them. The folks who have this karma are good and trusted role-players, the sort who wouldn't typically provoke the minority to call for changes.
As far as the new sub-guilds and other options, I am fine with those costing because they advantageously tweak the character. The current karma races and guilds do not. Let them be the free baseline, with all other modifications costing karma. Everyone wins.
Agreed in all respects.
Quote from: Akoto on September 13, 2011, 05:49:36 PM
I certainly wouldn't allow the opinions of a vocal minority, those who want to limit magicker PCs, to influence the design of this system.
How do you know it's a vocal
minority? How do you know that staff is, for some reason, choosing to listen to a vocal minority (if there is one) rather than to their own game-design plans?
???
It's fine to have your own opinion and position on things, please do. But please don't attempt to speak for anyone but yourself, or to denigrate decisions as supposedly being made in response to some hypothetical minority, or to elevate your own position as being that of some hypothetical majority.
From a numbers standpoint (yes, I must go there), none of us players know what number of players are in any "camp" on this.
Actually Gimf, the statement was made by a staffer. and is what he is answering too.
the statement amounted to "With all the complaints of overabundant mages, why are you guys all complaining about this change?"
Here it is...from Talia.
QuoteAlso it's a little deliciously ironic that a karma system change which sprang from staff's listening to the feedback of players over many years (about supporting casual play, making for more flexibility in guilds and subguilds, limiting magickers, making karma more transparent and fair, etc etc) has now spawned a thread about how much players don't trust staff because staff don't listen.
The bolded being the vocal minority, and the people often laughed at when the guild/mage hating threads pop up.
Quote from: Zoltan on September 13, 2011, 05:49:08 PM
Guys, it'd be a MAXIMUM wait of like three months. With the Nilazi example. That's not that long.
I make plenty of use of my karma and the regen time doesn't seem that bad. Hopefully it'll make the really high karma classes that much more special. But yeah, an eight karma person could roll up a sorc once every 5 months if they die right away. That doesn't sound bad to me.
Can staff clarify - will existing policies concerning limiting the number of certain guilds/races/etc running around in the game at any given time still be in place under the new system? Or is part of the intent of the new system to introduce a natural sort of limitation for this by using the karma regeneration timer to prevent people from continually rolling higher karma characters?
Will this change how players lose karma? Lets say I receive a point of karma for having a long lived character one time, but none of my following characters ever live long enough to be considered long lived. Is it possible to lose that one point of karma (or karma for other things) for lack of future performance?
What about those that already have karma? Will there be some way for them to know which category the karma they have falls under? For example lets say I had 4 karma. Is one point for having a long lived character, is another point for good communication and the other two for good role-play? Or will all current karma not fall under a category with only future karma being categorized?
The karma change proposal is awesome because of what it adds to the game and I am ecstatic about the new possibilities this will bring to the game. Sure, it prevents players from playing several high-karma PCs in quick succession, requiring them to either stay alive a while, or play lower-karma PCs in the event of death, but the irony of this situation is that players with karma are responsible enough to not over-play their karma.
The lowest that karma will go is 3, so most players won't even affected by the restrictions because 4 or 5 karma is the highest level that most players ever attain. If a player either a) cannot keep a high-karma character alive for longer than a few months until the karma regen, or b) has a problem playing 3 karma and under classes, then I think there is a problem. The bulk of the playerbase consists of the mundane because that is the nature of Zalanthas.
Finally, the last thing I want to talk about is responsibility. You do not need to be a stellar RPer, Helper, long-lived, report-submitting, clan-leading badass to earn tons of karma. Those things definitely help, but in my experience, players who are responsible and mature earn the most trust (karma). Exercise discretion and maturity and the karma shouldn't be an issue.
Quote from: X-D on September 13, 2011, 06:00:33 PM
Actually Gim, the statement was made by a staffer. and is what he is answering too.
the statement amounted to "With all the complaints of overabundant mages, why are you guys all complaining about this change?"
I have just gone through this entire thread, twice, to look for whatever it is you are referring to. Adhira and Morgenes appear to be the only staffers to have posted in this thread, and it looks to me like neither of them has said anything remotely close to this.
I've read the other ongoing thread, the derail, as well, and I do not believe a staffer said anything like this, nor anything about this change being driven by a "vocal minority."
People actually string together multiple high-karma characters in a row?
... ::)
Any case, if you happen to be allergic to playing mundanes, it looks like the karma three options are always available.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 13, 2011, 06:19:31 PM
Quote from: X-D on September 13, 2011, 06:00:33 PM
Actually Gim, the statement was made by a staffer. and is what he is answering too.
the statement amounted to "With all the complaints of overabundant mages, why are you guys all complaining about this change?"
I have just gone through this entire thread, twice, to look for whatever it is you are referring to. Adhira and Morgenes appear to be the only staffers to have posted in this thread, and it looks to me like neither of them has said anything remotely close to this.
I've read the other ongoing thread, the derail, as well, and I do not believe a staffer said anything like this, nor anything about this change being driven by a "vocal minority."
Not in this thread no. But staff has said such in the past and confirmed that nothing was out of whack with the numbers of magicker pcs in the game as a whole.
Quote from: Sephiroto on September 13, 2011, 06:18:01 PM
The karma change proposal is awesome because of what it adds to the game and I am ecstatic about the new possibilities this will bring to the game. Sure, it prevents players from playing several high-karma PCs in quick succession, requiring them to either stay alive a while, or play lower-karma PCs in the event of death, but the irony of this situation is that players with karma are responsible enough to not over-play their karma.
The lowest that karma will go is 3, so most players won't even affected by the restrictions because 4 or 5 karma is the highest level that most players ever attain. If a player either a) cannot keep a high-karma character alive for longer than a few months until the karma regen, or b) has a problem playing 3 karma and under classes, then I think there is a problem. The bulk of the playerbase consists of the mundane because that is the nature of Zalanthas.
Finally, the last thing I want to talk about is responsibility. You do not need to be a stellar RPer, Helper, long-lived, report-submitting, clan-leading badass to earn tons of karma. Those things definitely help, but in my experience, players who are responsible and mature earn the most trust (karma). Exercise discretion and maturity and the karma shouldn't be an issue.
But what about all the people who've never tried <insert 3+ karma guild/race here>? They finally net enough points to play that drovian (a notably difficult Guild) they've been wanting, and then die three hours in because of something stupid like lack of code familiarity... and then are shit out of luck for however many months it takes to get that karma back? This makes it so a normal application using karma would have a higher down-time than special applications, at least the way they are currently. That's silly.
edit: You might say "Oh, if they want to play a magicker, they can go play a rukkian or a vivaduan instead!" To me, that sounds a whole lot like "If you want to play a stealthy character, and your assassin dies, you can only choose pickpocket or burglar for the next three months!" The magick guilds might be outwardly similar but, in my experience, they end up playing very differently.
I put the quote in the post for you Gimf.
I like the changes.
Players with high karma are supposed to be responsible for varying their own play, sticking mostly with what they prefer while branching out and trying different things. So while I understand if a player may prefer playing high-karma guilds or races, I also understand staff's desire to see players challenge themselves. And ultimately, if it's going to be the 4+ guild and race options that cost karma, and the lowest it can go down to is 3, then you're paying one point to play a Whiran or Krathi. That will come back in a month. There's no telling what the higher options will cost, but it's still possible that it will cost 1, 2, or 3 karma which isn't really too much of a wait to ask from a player that just got a chance to play a rare guild or race.
I'm pretty confident if I spend X karma on a character, I can keep it alive for at least X months.
And maybe that is what staff is really trying to encourage here anyway, instead of making mages and muls rarer. Encouraging a slower pace of play rather than a riskier one seems like it will keep more storied characters in the game.
But I agree that there should be a fail-safe where if you get killed very early on something you spent a lot of points on, staff will at least consider your situation and give you your karma back right away. It could be done through the request tool so that staff can examine the situation, rather than having it be automated. If you get really unlucky, they'll know, but they'll also know if you just committed suicide or something.
X-D, I'm just gonna say again...do you have the numbers to support your assertion that there's a vocal minority who wants these things? I don't think any of us players know what the numbers are. So statements that staff is doing this in response to a vocal minority are invalid because they are not supportable with the available evidence.
And that is all. You don't have the numbers, I don't have the numbers, it's plain silly to argue about it. But I don't like players attempting to claim that somehow they do have the numbers and/or that they speak for me or for anyone but themselves.
Quote from: X-D on September 13, 2011, 05:50:11 PM
BTW, the Average wait for special apps this year is more then 35 days...just FYI.
Just 3 months...Yes, 90 days is not that long, its only a quarter a year.
/me rolls his eyes
I believe one of the side effects of this change will be that the special app queue won't be so long anymore. People use special apps to play characters they cannot play today, in large part because of the limited subguild/guild system. Once these changes go in, that flexibility will be there, and there should be less of a need for special apps in general.
Also, it doesn't sound like it would be difficult for the staff to tweak the recharge time or lower the karma cost on choices if it feels slow once everything is implemented.
Quote from: wizturbo on September 13, 2011, 06:37:23 PM
Quote from: X-D on September 13, 2011, 05:50:11 PM
BTW, the Average wait for special apps this year is more then 35 days...just FYI.
Just 3 months...Yes, 90 days is not that long, its only a quarter a year.
/me rolls his eyes
I believe one of the side effects of this change will be that the special app queue won't be so long anymore. People use special apps to play characters they cannot play today, in large part because of the limited subguild/guild system. Once these changes go in, that flexibility will be there, and there should be less of a need for special apps in general.
There aren't that many special apps in the first place. Probably because the wait time was longer than a month. However, now that the wait time to regen enough karma to play things you used to be able to app normally, and be approved within 24 hours, is now raised to 1 month per point of karma over the initial 3, I'm guessing the number of special apps will go UP, dramatically.
Because now, all the things people who -have- karma for, didn't have to wait to apply for, they will now have to wait to apply for. And the wait can be up to 5 months depending on how much they used up for their last character. Special app time is significantly less than that (though a few weeks ago, I saw there were 3 special apps, and the average processing time for them was 77 days. Still less than what you will be able to expect for -normal- apps for karma roles, with this new change).
Well Gimf, Lets look at it.
First you have to define vocal, which for this discussion means GDB posters, So the numbers in fact ARE there.
Then, casual players. First you have to define that, from what has been mentioned on the GDB that seems to be defined by a player who plays around or less then 4 hours a week and the number of people that claim to be such is between 6 and 8...but hell, lets say 10, then there are about 40-60 people that post out of the what around 270 mud accounts?
So 10 people out of a possible what 50 casual players...hell, that is a minority in just the casual players, and casual players are a minority of players. Now, looking back at the last few mage hating threads, you come up with about six people who are vocal about that, even in past polls they came out in the minority.
Need I go on?
As to the last point, Unless somebody named you and said "And speaking for Gimf and Nyr and Synth..."
But wait, nobody did.
Now, it is possible that Staff has gotten hundreds of complaints on the request tool having to do with mage limiting and casual play and Karma being more fair etc. But that was not stated in the post Akoto responded to so one has to assume it was from the GDB, and if that is the case the numbers are there and so the argument is not invalid.
And why? Because the number of people that even post on the GDB is a Minority of players, So even if EVERY SINGLE POSTER WANTED THE SAME THING, IT WOULD STILL BE THE VOCAL MINORITY.
As I think about it, I don't know that it will be a huge deal but I can see where the karma regen might kinda suck for some people. I'd say, either make karma only "spent" when using the master subguild options or skill boosts but not affecting guild/race karma options or...instead decreasing the karma regen time. Maybe a point every two weeks or something. I don't know exactly. Perhaps make it so karma guild/race options of 6, 7, or 8 spend points off but 1-5 don't.
Do we really need an argument over this? Why don't we see how things work out once this is implemented, and keep the discussion to questions, clarifications, and feedback directly related to the proposed system?
This change seems indicative of a desire to accommodate the needs of the playerbase as a whole, and I for one am thankful for it.
I still think there has to be a Grace period before karma deduction.
Because if we are to be honest, for the most part, I think all of us that have more then 1 karma, If we manage to keep the PC alive for a week we can normaly keep them alive for as long as we want. Barring power outages etc, but that can be takin up with staff on a case by case basis.
Agreed, let's just wait and see. Tweaks to a complex system like this are inevitable. I'm sure the goal here is to make the game more fun, not put a large portion of the player base on time out, unable to play the roles they want.
I like the idea that I didn't come up with where they don't deduct karma for main guilds but they do for the new stuff.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 13, 2011, 06:59:14 PM
I like the idea that I didn't come up with where they don't deduct karma for main guilds but they do for the new stuff.
I think many of us have posted agreement with this suggestion, or posted the suggestion itself.
I like the idea all around. i think Seph's point of challenging high-karma players is a good one. I also think X-D's idea of a grace period is a fair one -- Lord knows how many times I started a Magicker and died within a RL week to some newbish newbdom mistake.
Did we ever get a number on how many new subguilds are going in? Ish?
Currently if you special app a sorceror, nilazi, mul, psi or other high karma class or race it will be assessed against how many others of that type are already in game and may be refused on that basis. That will not be happening with the new system as it will be somewhat more self regulating.
We've also heard your call for some kind of grace period. We will discuss this. It seems reasonable that there may be a grace period though it is unlikely to be a week as someone mentioned. Other muds do have this yes, but some other muds also 'consume' the karma or roleplay points and you have to earn them all over again. We'll come up with an equitable solution if possible.
Using the average processing time for special apps isn't a good way to judge how fast those are taking. Sometimes a special app will be in the queue longer as we're corresponding with a player on make changes to the app so it can be accepted. Or there may be too many of a class and I've asked them to wait a month to see if things free up, leaving the app open as a reminder. Most special apps are processed within a 3 week timeframe and I anticipate that the new system will make it quicker as there will be less variables and we can have other staff members working on approvals.
Like any new implementation I am sure there will be revisions along the way. Players have made some suggestions already and we've made some changes. Suggestions are great, we're more than happy to entertain suggestions, it's also really nice when they're worded as a suggestion, not a confrontation. I'm sure that this will be a learning curve for everyone, things will alter from the original presentation, hopefully we'll come out with something that meets the intent of staff - a system that actually has some perks and benefits to the playerbase. If it fails to do that... well we can always retain the status quo.
I'd also like to ask that the arguments on this thread cease. We've had some good discussion on this so far, but if the thread continues to devolve in to arguments it will be locked.
It's been said elsewhere that everyone will have 1 karma available to them.. correct me if i'm being an idiot but does this basically mean that desert elves are no longer a karma race? Provided that karma is not used up for races/guilds below 3. It does seem to kind of devalue the first karma that everyone has earnt this far by doing XYZ things.
QuoteSeph's point of challenging high-karma players
I do not, In fact, every time somebody mentions forcing players "out of comfort zone" Or challenging them with roles they don't like, I really have to step back from the GDB because I'm grabbin the flame thrower.
Like me, I do not play Breeds or Muls, Not because I can't do it, because i HATE HATE HATE playing them. I play a mage now and again but overall, I dislike them, I am far more likely to kill off or store a mage in two months or less then anything else.
But you say, Hey, Don't play a Breed or mul if you hate them so much, and of course...I do not.
But now, this coming system will force people to do just that, It will limit choices to people who have earned those choices, it will force people to either play things they do not want, or more likely to simply not play till the karma regens. And honestly, most people will only do that so many times till they simply stop playing altogether.
And in the end, it is a game, you PLAY games for enjoyment. If you do not enjoy something, you will not play...it is that simple. And sure, we all have that choice, but as has been mentioned before, Muds are a dying class of gaming, it is a slow death but every player or staffer lost hastens that end.
I've known of players that play only Half-giants or only desert elves, and some of those players did so for 6, 7, 10 years or more. But it is rare to see anybody complain about that, and in fact, though you or I might think that is boring, They enjoy it and who are we to impose on that? The higher karma classes and races are no different.
(edit)
Not to mention, usually, by the time somebody has 6+ karma, They have played maybe hundreds of the 0-3 karma options...might be a tad bit bored with them and certainly not a challenge, as they almost had to have played them to get to 6+ karma anyway.
Quote from: mangler on September 13, 2011, 08:10:08 PM
It's been said elsewhere that everyone will have 1 karma available to them.. correct me if i'm being an idiot but does this basically mean that desert elves are no longer a karma race? Provided that karma is not used up for races/guilds below 3. It does seem to kind of devalue the first karma that everyone has earnt this far by doing XYZ things.
I think you're reading something wrong. You still have to earn your first karma point, but you will never ever drop below that one karma point no matter how many points you spend on stat boosts or subguilds or whatnot.
Yeah, what X-D said. Anyway, when are seeing the new subguilds?
Taven's Understanding of the New Karma System (Version 2)How Karma is AwardedKarma is awarded on a mix of the following categories:
- Longevity - This is how long you've been playing the game, without doing something bad. If you've been playing ages, you get points!
- Good communication - This is being clear and polite when communicating with staff, and making an effort to do so as needed or regularly
- Ability to roleplay - This is more then just emoting, but is taking the game world into account. It may also mean playing in more then one location, and having a variety of character types (IE, not all your characters have the same personality and guild)
- Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world - You do NOT need to play a magicker for this. This means rather that you understand how magick is viewed in society. You don't go around treating gemmers like normal people for no reason, and you don't talk about how awesome magick is in Tuluk (more complex, but you get the basic idea)
- Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures - This could be about understanding how Tuluk is subtle, or how elves and breeds are perceived in the world. It might be also playing a good character of a specific race or in a specific culture (for example, an elf doing tests of trust, etc)
- Contributes to the game - This could be a variety of things. Does your character add to the game, either by making plots or by providing people with interesting RP? Are you as a player contributing (for example when staff has calls for submissions)? That sort of thing.
- Leadership - This is for leadership in general, not clan leadership. If you are a low level nobody but plan a lot of events for your clan, or an indie who works to lead and coordinate, that would count
You won't get details on exact criteria karma is awarded for, but you will get an indication of which areas (for example "Awarded karma point for longevity"). While you can special app to have an addition 3 points of karma if you hit the maximum, the maximum will still continue to be 8 points. Any of the above categories can have upto two points, except in logevity, where you can only have one (
updated for accuracy). Karma will be reviewed when players request their account notes (although it can also be reviewed at staff discretion). It will be possible to lose karma or gain it, so be aware of this before requesting account notes.
Karma Spending DetailsThings that Do Not Cost Karma
- Karma guilds/races at points 1, 2 and 3 - These do not incur any cost. Choosing one of these guilds will not make you spend any karma points. These include desert elf, vivaduan, rukkian, and half-giant.
Things that Do Cost Karma
- Extended Subguilds (point cost varies) - this includes magick subguilds, and mastercraft subguilds (such as mastercrafting in tailoring)
- Skill Bumps (one point per level bump) - You spend karma to raise a starting skill. You may not boost a weapons skill more than 2 skill levels. You may not boost offense and defense. You do not raise the skillcap for the skill. If you spend enough points to gain a master rank in a skill that branches, you will start with the skill branched. However, you cannot spend karma on branched skills. In addition, if you start with a master crafting skill, you can submit mastercrafts for that skill right away (keep in mind that the limit on number of master crafts is per player character, not account, so even if you just submitted a Master Craft with your pc and died, you could do that with your next pc).
- Guilds/races at the 4-8 Karma ranking (point costs varies, karma level will not drop below 3 points) - This would be Whirans, Krathi, Elkrosians, Drovians, Nilazi, Muls, Sorcerers, and Psionicists
Think of it like an Armageddon prompt item (stamina, hp, or mana points). You might have 6/6 Karma, and then spend 3 to play a magicker. You now have 3/6 Karma, and will regenerate the karma spent at one point per month, or three months. If your "scores" (IE your karma ranking) gets better, this is reflected in your Karma points. You might then have 7 Karma. Karma regenerates while you are playing, naturally over time. However, if your karma PC dies before your points are regenerated, you will not have them to spend. You will never go below 1 karma point (think of it like if these were stun points, you'd never pass out). You must still earn all your karma. IE, a newbie does NOT start out with one karma. It's just that once you have at least one karma, you can't spend it to 0.
Old characters will not be adjusted for new guilds, and are stuck being what they are. There is no ETA for the karma change.
You forgot muls and nilazi.
I was also thinking...I think skill boosting for half-giants should cost twice as many points as other races of characters.
Quote from: Morgenes on September 13, 2011, 12:47:08 PM
Quote from: Taven on September 13, 2011, 11:01:27 AM
1. Skill bumping does not autobranch you. So let's say I want to spend a bunch of karma points to boost my "pooper scooper" level to master, and I know that the "pooper scooper" skill branches into the "poop crafting" skill. If I spend those points, I WILL be a master in pooper scooper, but I WON'T branch from it. So when do I branch and get the skill "poop crafting," if my "pooper scooper" starts at master?
Did we say skill bumping does not autobranch you? If we did, that is incorrect. You can branch new skills through skill gains at character creation. You CANNOT apply skill gains to skills that were branched from skill gains in char generation. So, to use your example, if you applied karma to 'pooper scooper' to master, it would branch 'poop crafting', but you could not apply any karma points to 'poop crafting' to raise it up. That make sense?
Yes, it had been said, thanks for clearing that up. Also, yes, that does make sense. Thanks! :)
Quote from: Bacon on September 13, 2011, 11:30:50 PM
You forgot muls and nilazi.
I was also thinking...I think skill boosting for half-giants should cost twice as many points as other races of characters.
Updated.
I think that skill boosting for half-giants is only really terrifying in the case of combat skills, but that should be considered.
QuoteI think that skill boosting for half-giants is only really terrifying in the case of combat skills, but that should be considered.
True. Maybe only double points to boost combat skills on half-giant characters.
I do not believe anybody would skill boost on a HG anyway...not when you have new and interesting subs to choose from.
I know I would not.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 12:20:05 AM
I do not believe anybody would skill boost on a HG anyway...not when you have new and interesting subs to choose from.
I know I would not.
People have all sorts of varying interests, and it's something that should be considered as a possibility, even if you think it is unlikely.
Quote from: Bacon on September 13, 2011, 11:37:42 PM
QuoteI think that skill boosting for half-giants is only really terrifying in the case of combat skills, but that should be considered.
True. Maybe only double points to boost combat skills on half-giant characters.
An alternative rather then costing double points (I would never ever raise a combat skill on a half-giant if that were true), you could instead pick a cap for them. Such as "half-giants cannot have skills bought with karma past skill level <X>," where <X> is a reasonable level. It's already generally built in with the max of 2 bumps in a combat skill, but half-giants might need more limitations, to prevent them from being as nasty right out of the box.
QuoteIt's already generally built in with the max of 2 bumps in a combat skill, but half-giants might need more limitations, to prevent them from being as nasty right out of the box.
I get that but my thoughts are on a half-giant starting with two bumps is a pretty big deal considering how long it takes for them to learn that much normally. It's a much bigger deal when compared to pcs that learn much faster and lack the strengths of a half-giant. They can already be sick out of the box with their starting skills. This may even be something to give some thought to with dwarves as well. The slow learning of these races is probably their biggest limitation and skill boosts on these races I feel would have much more impact than on other races. Primarily in regards to combat, IMO.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 12:20:05 AM
I do not believe anybody would skill boost on a HG anyway...not when you have new and interesting subs to choose from.
I know I would not.
If I understand the system correctly, you can spend some karma on the sub, then spend even
more karma on skill bumps.
I think it is a good point that these skill bumps benefit low-wisdom characters moreso than others. Perhaps it'd be wise to consider having the skill bumps affected somehow by the PC's wisdom score. If someone prioritizes wisdom just to get a bigger skill bump, well, they're also kind of throwing away the main benefit of high wisdom (by having less learning left to do)... so it'd balance out.
Maybe there could be a karma level, and a guild-karma regen level.
Karma level is normal. Like, you get set to eight karma, and upon picking a guild that takes 5+ karma, you get sent back to 3 karma.
But if you get your guild-karma regen level set higher as well, to like four, now matter what guild you choose, your karma won't go below four from the choice. It will still, however, go down from skill-bumps and subguild choice. So, like, you could have karma of eight and guild-karma of five, and when you pick sorceror, your karma only gets bumped down to five.
If, however, you pick a subguild that costs four karma (if that's how it works?) and get a skill bump, it'll take five karma away and you'll be back down to three. Am I making sense with this?
Quote from: jstorrie on September 14, 2011, 03:13:47 AM
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 12:20:05 AM
I do not believe anybody would skill boost on a HG anyway...not when you have new and interesting subs to choose from.
I know I would not.
If I understand the system correctly, you can spend some karma on the sub, then spend even more karma on skill bumps.
I think it is a good point that these skill bumps benefit low-wisdom characters moreso than others. Perhaps it'd be wise to consider having the skill bumps affected somehow by the PC's wisdom score. If someone prioritizes wisdom just to get a bigger skill bump, well, they're also kind of throwing away the main benefit of high wisdom (by having less learning left to do)... so it'd balance out.
I agree verily with this post, and Bacons.
One thing to note here, from Taven's 'recap', is that all options will have a karma cost associated with them for the duration of the char gen process. So choosing Half-Giant at char-gen will cost you 3 karma, if you have more karma you can do things like choose an elementalist guild, or special sub guild or skill bumps. If you just have 3 karma, that's it, you can play a Half Giant with a mundane guild and normal subguild and no skill bumps.
At the end of the character generation process, your current karma level will be reduced to the minimum of your maximum level or 3.
This will also enforce rules that are already in place. If you do the math, you will not be able to choose to create a Mul (7 karma) elementalist (2+ karma), without a Special Application, and that likely will be turned down.
Edited to add:
Also, one clarification to separate to try and avoid confusion, as we had this issue when discussing this. You have two buckets, your 'karma level' and your 'char gen points'. Your 'karma level' is as it always has and will be. Your 'char gen points' is limited to your karma level. When you are in character generation, you will be spending 'char gen points' on the options you choose. You never spend anything of your 'karma level'. If you are an 8 karma player, you will remain so.
Quote from: Morgenes on September 14, 2011, 09:42:41 AM
You have two buckets, your 'karma level' and your 'char gen points'. Your 'karma level' is as it always has and will be. Your 'char gen points' is limited to your karma level. When you are in character generation, you will be spending 'char gen points' on the options you choose. You never spend anything of your 'karma level'. If you are an 8 karma player, you will remain so.
So say I have 5 karma, when this new system comes into play, you'll add another value tag onto my account, Lets call it my 'Gene pool', and 'match' it with my Karma pool.
My Gene pool's maximum level of capacity can never top the five Karma I have in it's sister pool, but will ebb and flow depending on what I choose to play...
So with my 5 Karma, I can play a HG Rukkian/thug, that would take my Gene pool down to 3 because I've only chosen a pre-built guild/sub-guild and a race I have Karma to play.
My HG Ruk dies in a day thanks to some hoity toity Templar who can't catch boulders dying in a game of catch....
Back I go to the Char Gen screen, this time, the options available to me will be up to HG, including Rukkian, viv, yadda yadda....But I can't play another HG Ruk for 2 months. I can however decide I wan't to play a D-Elf warrior with two skill boosts in say, slashing weapons, leaving me on 1 point of Karma left out of my original 5.
By deafault, I
CANNOT go below 1 on the Char gen screen, however, is it possible to then spend that 1 point on a sub-guild for my D-elf? Inviting him to leave the gene pool and step into zalanthas with two skill boosts and one of the new sub-guilds?
Quote from: X-D on September 13, 2011, 08:12:14 PM
QuoteSeph's point of challenging high-karma players
I do not, In fact, every time somebody mentions forcing players "out of comfort zone" Or challenging them with roles they don't like, I really have to step back from the GDB because I'm grabbin the flame thrower.
Like me, I do not play Breeds or Muls, Not because I can't do it, because i HATE HATE HATE playing them. I play a mage now and again but overall, I dislike them, I am far more likely to kill off or store a mage in two months or less then anything else.
But you say, Hey, Don't play a Breed or mul if you hate them so much, and of course...I do not.
But now, this coming system will force people to do just that, It will limit choices to people who have earned those choices, it will force people to either play things they do not want, or more likely to simply not play till the karma regens. And honestly, most people will only do that so many times till they simply stop playing altogether.
And in the end, it is a game, you PLAY games for enjoyment. If you do not enjoy something, you will not play...it is that simple. And sure, we all have that choice, but as has been mentioned before, Muds are a dying class of gaming, it is a slow death but every player or staffer lost hastens that end.
I've known of players that play only Half-giants or only desert elves, and some of those players did so for 6, 7, 10 years or more. But it is rare to see anybody complain about that, and in fact, though you or I might think that is boring, They enjoy it and who are we to impose on that? The higher karma classes and races are no different.
(edit)
Not to mention, usually, by the time somebody has 6+ karma, They have played maybe hundreds of the 0-3 karma options...might be a tad bit bored with them and certainly not a challenge, as they almost had to have played them to get to 6+ karma anyway.
+1.
I don't play much as it is. I've been playing this game for 15+ years. I've been playing
the same mundane character for nearly 4. I want to go on a high karma streak after this character. If my high karma character dies, I very much see me just not playing at all until I have the karma to make a new one. Rinse, repeat. So you lose a veteran player for several months at a time due to this new system. Eventually, I'll just get frustrated with the wait period and stop playing all together. This is exactly how I see it happening for me. I'm not the only one in this boat.
Please, please consider:
1) Guilds/races don't cost char-gen points
2) QUicker regen of char-gen points
3) Underpants
4) ?
I'm having a hard time coming up with any other suggestions, but as it is I hate this forced wait period and it will, in the end, cause the death of my Armageddon career. Of that I'm nearly certain.
You could just try to keep your high karma characters alive. ???
Then the "wait" is reduced considerably. What worries me a little is that I'm going to continuously put my chargen points into beefed up mundanes and never get to play a karma guild again. :D
I say, let's hope this system gets in place soon and then we can work out the kinks as we go. The basic premise seems good to me.
Considering my average character lasts 6+ months (I think I'm on #15 in 9 years?), the wait period doesn't concern me, but I do see how it might concern others. For those I would say, try to play more cautiously. I wouldn't see a push toward slightly more cautious play as a bad thing. Longer lived characters develop in ways it's hard to mimic out of chargen.
I have posted some examples in the Staff Announcement thread (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.msg634122.html#new) that I think will address some of the questions about how character generation will work.
As to the specifics of this. We are still in flux discussing the minutiae of how this will work. On the points we are discussing is tweaking the regeneration rate.
Well, a system I am not really fond of, I dislike more after Morg explained.
I guess I had assumed that some things would remain the same as they are now, Like if you want a desert elf viv right now, you only need viv karma. Which makes sense, I'm trusted to play a viv, I'm trusted to play a desert elf, I'm trusted to play a desert elf viv. But this new system, No, you are not trusted to play a desert elf viv till you are trusted to play a half-giant. OR you can try a special app. And if you wanted a desert elf viv with a new sub...well, you better be trusted to play a drovian.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:17:58 AM
Well, a system I am not really fond of, I dislike more after Morg explained.
I guess I had assumed that some things would remain the same as they are now, Like if you want a desert elf viv right now, you only need viv karma. Which makes sense, I'm trusted to play a viv, I'm trusted to play a desert elf, I'm trusted to play a desert elf viv. But this new system, No, you are not trusted to play a desert elf viv till you are trusted to play a half-giant. OR you can try a special app. And if you wanted a desert elf viv with a new sub...well, you better be trusted to play a drovian.
What this does is enforce that playing a Viv DE is a higher responsibility role than just a desert elf or just a vivaduan. We feel that this is something we'd like to see, and I'm sorry you disagree.
The intricacies of being a desert elf add an extra layer of complexity to magicker roles, hence the requirement, as the race does have advantages that other racial magickers may not have. We're are trying to build a system that is fair, fairly balancing, and more rewarding for players.
I usually don't have a hard time keeping characters alive. However, every character is quite vulnerable in the early days played period. And then combine that with the fact that, in many circumstances, high karma characters are actively hunted. And then there's the random bolt of lightning leading to a link dead death, etc etc. "Keep your characters alive longer" is simply not a given that people can do, even veterans. Veterans are better are it, yes. But no one can just "keep their characters alive". There's always an element of death looming around the corner. If there wasn't, I wouldn't play this mud. You just never know what's going to happen.
I'm happy to hear they're considering adjusting the char-gen regen rate. The rest of the changes to the karma system I love.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:17:58 AM
Well, a system I am not really fond of, I dislike more after Morg explained.
I guess I had assumed that some things would remain the same as they are now, Like if you want a desert elf viv right now, you only need viv karma. Which makes sense, I'm trusted to play a viv, I'm trusted to play a desert elf, I'm trusted to play a desert elf viv. But this new system, No, you are not trusted to play a desert elf viv till you are trusted to play a half-giant. OR you can try a special app. And if you wanted a desert elf viv with a new sub...well, you better be trusted to play a drovian.
Karma represents trust. "Character generation points" enforce rarity.
To take your example, you are currently trusted to play a desert elf vivaduan with two karma. But currently, there are restrictions on desert elf magickers. Just because you're trusted to play a desert elf viv doesn't mean the open desert elf tribes have a place for your viv.
In this proposed system, you are still trusted to play a viv or a desert elf, with the additional understanding that d-elf magickers are going to be rarer than d-elf mundanes and need more support from staff as well as a more experienced player. In a sense, the game will enforce itself more easily with a change like this.
Your example goes on with adding more power to a character with a new subguild. Well, you should be more trusted if you want to play more powerful characters. That's what a special application represents in the current system, and I personally don't see any problems with making that more hands-free for more trusted players.
What happens if someone wants to play a DE sorcerer or an HG nilazi?
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 14, 2011, 11:28:38 AM
What happens if someone wants to play a DE sorcerer or an HG nilazi?
Those will both be special app only.
Well Morg, Though I might actually agree that playing a delf mage might be a level above either one alone.
I don't when you get past the basics. Let us say that I agree that the first desert elf mage you make, viv/ruk should be 3 karma because it is more. Why is it then that to make a desert elf krathi or whiran will cost 5? You have already proven you can do the delf mage, and for all intents and purposes, there is no difference at this point, you should be able to do it at 4 without special app, and we have not even gotten into the poor half-giants. Who, though I would agree that HG sorc makes no sense at all, You will not be able to do nilazi or elkros without special app and even drovian is full karma.
I am totally missing the "Making it more rewarding" Part as well. From my current point of view it seems LESS rewarding.
Could you maybe explain that part from a staff or staff as player point of view so I can see it?
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 14, 2011, 11:28:38 AM
What happens if someone wants to play a DE sorcerer or an HG nilazi?
I think Adhira mentioned that special applications will give 3 more generation points for players to play with, so technically, someone can still special-app these roles and have 2 more points for a subguild or skill boosts (assuming guilds still cost as much as their karma level by the time the system is finished).
Quote from: Morgenes on September 14, 2011, 11:30:15 AM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 14, 2011, 11:28:38 AM
What happens if someone wants to play a DE sorcerer or an HG nilazi?
Those will both be special app only.
Heh. Fair enough.
And cutthroat, that all is moot anyway, because you have to ASK to play a desert elf mage anyway. If the tribe does not have opening for a viv you could ask if they have an opening for ruk, If staff says, No room for mages then no delf mages. This is regulated by staff per tribe and all delves must be in tribes.
So the new system will do nothing to enforce anything on that point. Will it ensure that half-giant elkros are rare...Sure, But to be honest, I've not seen a HG elkros in 12 years myself, they are pretty rare already. So also moot.
Because Half-giant mages are HARD to play.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:30:40 AM
Well Morg, Though I might actually agree that playing a delf mage might be a level above either one alone.
I don't when you get past the basics. Let us say that I agree that the first desert elf mage you make, viv/ruk should be 3 karma because it is more. Why is it then that to make a desert elf krathi or whiran will cost 5? You have already proven you can do the delf mage, and for all intents and purposes, there is no difference at this point, you should be able to do it at 4 without special app,
Not all mages are equal. Just as there is a difference between Stone and Water and Wind and Fire, so there should be a difference when combined with a Desert Elf. It enforces the power levels that the existing karma levels were trying to enforce, but didn't do so completely.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:30:40 AM
and we have not even gotten into the poor half-giants. Who, though I would agree that HG sorc makes no sense at all, You will not be able to do nilazi or elkros without special app and even drovian is full karma.
A half-giant magicker should be much rarer than it is today, period. As a staff, we are making this move to enforce this. As it stands we usually have to alter the half-giant to even make it playable as a magicker. By moving it up the 'cost' scale of CGP, this will make these roles even more rare, as they should be.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:30:40 AM
I am totally missing the "Making it more rewarding" Part as well. From my current point of view it seems LESS rewarding.
Could you maybe explain that part from a staff or staff as player point of view so I can see it?
I can see how the perceived loss of options is a loss of reward from a player perspective. We are adding in other options (new sub-guilds and skill bumps) to help with the perceived loss, but what we are hoping to get out of this is a better restriction on higher powered roles, and a better sense of cost and weight to those roles. We hope that this will make it so that if you ever run across a half-giant elementalist of any kind, you will take a step back and think 'holy shit, this is strange'. It's a question of if you personally think that less magick in the world will be a reward or not.
Either way you look at it though, we are expanding the options in character generation, and standardizing the way that the special application process works, which we hope will provide a net benefit to the players.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:39:52 AM
And cutthroat, that all is moot anyway, because you have to ASK to play a desert elf mage anyway. If the tribe does not have opening for a viv you could ask if they have an opening for ruk, If staff says, No room for mages then no delf mages. This is regulated by staff per tribe and all delves must be in tribes.
So the new system will do nothing to enforce anything on that point.
I was referring to the fact that there are more people with 2+ karma than people with 3+ karma. So it will reduce the number of people applying for these roles and staff will be able to satisfy a higher percentage of requests, in the long run.
QuoteWill it ensure that half-giant elkros are rare...Sure, But to be honest, I've not seen a HG elkros in 12 years myself, they are pretty rare already. So also moot.
Because Half-giant mages are HARD to play.
Now that difficulty (and the potential power involved with any HG out of the box) will be shown by their cost. I don't really see a problem with that, even if no player wants to pick the option for another 12 years.
Huh...wait now, I missed anybody saying anything of standerdizing special app process in all the flak.
Whats that now, Care to explain farther, I mean, I do not currently nor have I ever special apped...But hey, if it is more streamlined, you never know.
What is to change, how is it to be better?
(edit)
Heh, no player will ever pick it. Nobody is going to toss 6 karma for the HG krathi, risk it sucking for them then having to wait 4 months to play a delf krathi.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:46:32 AM
Huh...wait now, I missed anybody saying anything of standerdizing special app process in all the flak.
Whats that now, Care to explain farther, I mean, I do not currently nor have I ever special apped...But hey, if it is more streamlined, you never know.
What is to change, how is it to be better?
I think Morgenes is referring to the extra three generation points received when you put in a special app.
Currently you can pick a guild up to 3 karma points above your current level while keeping your application in the realm of possible approval.
With the new system you get 3 more generation points to make skill bumps, buy guilds, subguilds, and races. So all staff has to check is, "Does this go over the points the player has left + 3?" rather than figure out if it is balanced or unbalanced arbitrarily.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:46:32 AM
Huh...wait now, I missed anybody saying anything of standerdizing special app process in all the flak.
Whats that now, Care to explain farther, I mean, I do not currently nor have I ever special apped...But hey, if it is more streamlined, you never know.
What is to change, how is it to be better?
Special Apps will grant you 3 CGP to use beyond your max CGP. The existing limits on number of spec apps will remain.
Well, I understood that part, but how is that streamlining the process?
I mean, Alright, it will be well known to everybody that you can't app more then 3 points above your current, but I thought that was already the case?
You know, the sad part about this entire karma deal for me is.
In the past I have been able to not really care about karma and now I feel as I will be forced to care about it somewhat, just to stay on a semi-even footing with other PCs of even basically mundane types.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 13, 2011, 05:14:44 PM
Quote from: Ouroboros on September 13, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.
The only super old PC's I know of that have been alive as long as I've been playing arm (for almost a year and a half) are awesome PC's...
Don't store whoever you are and whoever you play. Heh.
I've got a character that's only a couple months away from being 4 real life years old. I can tell you that, after finally digesting exactly what this karma system change was all about, my exact first thought was: "Maybe I should store my character and fire up a high karma one before this goes into effect so I don't lose any points yet." Especially given that I've got a pretty high number of karma points, and I've been playing a mundane guild now for nearly 4 years. I've got a high karma itch that needs some serious scratching and this new system guarantees I won't be able to if I have a high karma character die early on in their life.
Just wanted to chime in and say these changes are awesome!
I believe this is going to reinforce the importance of trying to keep your character alive for a while (something I generally struggle with) and also help out casual players with difficult roles.
Thanks staff!
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 11:58:35 AM
Well, I understood that part, but how is that streamlining the process?
I mean, Alright, it will be well known to everybody that you can't app more then 3 points above your current, but I thought that was already the case?
You know, the sad part about this entire karma deal for me is.
In the past I have been able to not really care about karma and now I feel as I will be forced to care about it somewhat, just to stay on a semi-even footing with other PCs of even basically mundane types.
Part of the plan is to look at making special apps par of the char gen process. Instead of going through the request tool, you would submit it in game as a 'special application'. Since the 3 CGP bonus will be included, this will make approving these much easier, and likely broaden the range of people who can review them. Streamlining the process. This isn't fully baked, and will happen after the initial roll out of CGP, but it OS on the horizon.
Well Morg, That actually does sound impressive.
And Rhyden, Gee, that is what the game really needs, even less conflict and more angst when somebody does get PK'd or a silly code death. I foresee more rage quits and rants in the future.
So hey, given that thought. Has there been more thought to maybe slightly looser rules to res?
I mean, there are many stupid ways to die in the game, many of which you even have a hard time making IC. But at least if you fell victem to those the cost was simply a PC and you could roll it again...no big loss, but this system can make even the loss of a mundane a rather large loss.
My concern, one I hope not only staff. But also players will consider is whether it will be fair or more important fun for the new amd low karma player. It's nice to start with an advantage. However, if most people are starting their mundane pcs with boosts, it may feel to those who cannot boost that in fact they are at a disadvantage. I'm not sure that is a good thing.
No more of a disadvantage than they were before with the way karma worked. They were relegated to non-karma roles except through special app. That has not changed. The other part of this announcement does effect everyone as longevity is now a criteria for karma awards. This means more people will have access to some karma.
Yes and no. Before a new warrior was a new warrior. Now you've got your new warrior and your new warrior with extras.
I think it is an issue that can be moderated by self policing. Just because a person can boost their mundane, they don't HAVE to boost every mundane.
Of course, my response assumes,perhaps mistakenly that I wasn't clear and that you didn't understand. It's possible though that you're right, but I am failing to grasp it.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 14, 2011, 12:23:10 PM
My concern, one I hope not only staff. But also players will consider is whether it will be fair or more important fun for the new amd low karma player. It's nice to start with an advantage. However, if most people are starting their mundane pcs with boosts, it may feel to those who cannot boost that in fact they are at a disadvantage. I'm not sure that is a good thing.
This is a point I had thought of too. How is it not putting those with no karma at a disadvantage when those with karma get to bump skills right out of the gate and thus, by default, create more powerful characters?
It's not much different than coming into the game as a newbie and having to work your way up to competence in comparison to those already-existing characters. Basically, experienced players get a shortcut to help them escape the initial grind that they've done a whole bunch of times.
Plus, honestly, it doesn't take that long to raise skills, if you actually work at it.
I think this issue is a molehill that doesn't need to be a mountain.
I agree.
So Joe spent 4 karma taking his dwarf warrior parry and disarm to advanced....Meh, give me a couple weeks.
Quote from: Delirium on September 14, 2011, 12:40:41 PM
It's not much different than coming into the game as a newbie and having to work your way up to competence in comparison to those already-existing characters. Basically, experienced players get a shortcut to help them escape the initial grind that they've done a whole bunch of times.
Plus, honestly, it doesn't take that long to raise skills, if you actually work at it.
I think this issue is a molehill that doesn't need to be a mountain.
I'll agree this is a lesser issue, but something I think should be pointed out. I'll also agree I can't see me using any char-gen points to bump skills at all, ever. I'll use 'em for race, guild and sub-guilds. Just seems a waste to spend them on something I can do with a bit of patience.
I won't argue that. It may be a complete non-issue, but because it is a potential problem it bears consideration.
Your argument made sense to me initially. The issue is there is a difference between being the weakest pc in a given room and always being the weakest pc in any room.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 12:16:47 PM
And Rhyden, Gee, that is what the game really needs, even less conflict and more angst when somebody does get PK'd or a silly code death. I foresee more rage quits and rants in the future.
I'm not sure how stressing importance on long-lived characters and offering casual players more flexible roles will cause less conflict IG and more angst from PKs and accidental deaths. I believe conflict has little to do with players' karma level, and everything to do with how characters involve (or don't involve) other characters. There will always be angst from PKs, but now there will be a higher sense of caution when dealing with high-karma roles, because A. they can't repeatedly make the same high-karma characters, and B. these high-karma characters will be rarer. As for silly code deaths, well, that's always a concern and has little to do with the topic at hand. Sure, it would be nice if staff were a little more lenient when it comes to quirky code deaths, but that discussion is for another topic.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 14, 2011, 12:49:54 PM
Just seems a waste to spend them on something I can do with a bit of patience.
I, on the other hand, do not enjoy grinding out skills in order to have fun. I want to step out of the gate with something to do other than suck for the first RL week or three of play. If anything, the proposed system probably doesn't go far enough for my tastes.
....Will it still be possible to app for really special stuff when the system is fully in place? Like, playing a gith or having infravision?
Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.
As to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.
New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.
And as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.
Well, sorcs should already be killed on sight, so if anything, this helps reinforce the rarity and danger of surviving as one.
Also, I've seen a lot of conflict, and in places where people usually complain that there's a lack of it.
So maybe it's all about perception and location.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 14, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
I won't argue that. It may be a complete non-issue, but because it is a potential problem it bears consideration.
Your argument made sense to me initially. The issue is there is a difference between being the weakest pc in a given room and always being the weakest pc in any room.
You spend your gen karma to get those boosts, all the way down to 1 karma point. Unless your characters are surviving for months on end, you're not going to be rolling super-powered mundanes every single time.
So, you got people like me that are serial karma-class players who'll actually have to wait around a bit to save up and make super-warrior. And then balance that with the fact that their gen karma is wiped out for a time and they won't be able to play their beloved Elkrans immediately afterward. I dunno... seems to me like the basic premise will work out.
I also hate the grind. I think I am willing to endure it some portion of the time if it will significantly improve the over all game climate. I don't yet know if it matters. As Delirium pointed out, it may be a nom-issue.
I personally know that I will probably always be spending my points on either duel-wield or two-handed for my rangers and assassins now. Just so parry branches earlier.
I'm probably most excited about the extended subguilds options than anything. I'd probably use points toward skill boosts also but that would depend on what I'm playing and how much time I have to play. I'd be more likely to use them on extended subguild options unless my playtime is restricted due to real life, then it would be skill boosts to cut down on the grind.
Here's an important question:
How do sponsered roles fall into this? Will players need to spend their banked char gen points to tweak these roles, or will some of them come with extra character gen points to play with?
If sponsered roles don't make you spend your own char gen points, that makes them much more enticing to play, which is a good thing in my opinion. Did you just play a d-elf sorc special app and spend all your char gen points, only to have them die a month later? Why not apply for that Templar role the staff are posting? While you wait for your char gen pool to regen, you can dish out some justice in the name of the Highlord.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 01:13:11 PM
Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.
I can understand your line of reasoning, but I disagree with you. Being more careful means taking
appropriate risks. It means playing with some common sense about what your character can possibly survive, or not survive. It means there will be conflict on all levels, but at least it will have the chance to escalate rather than remaining very high or staying very low.
And I'll never get the argument that conflict is almost gone from the game. It's a matter of perspective. Person A doesn't see any conflict, while other players are having a blast with player conflict. Hell, there's been recent player-initiated conflict in game that got so big it's on the history pages now. That's just the nature of the game.
QuoteAs to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.
New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.
We're currently discouraged from rolling the same PC over and over, even if the circumstances of the death are bad. It just happens to be less standardized, with staff only going out of their way to do this when they notice it becomes a problem. With the new system they don't have to notice.
QuoteAnd as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.
Griefers are already taken care of through the player complaint system. I don't see why a staff member wouldn't be able to award generation points to a player that gets their Nilazi or Sorcerer grief-killed early on and puts in a player complaint.
Being targeted legitimately, on the other hand, is something those PCs have to deal with. As a game design issue, it's the cost of the power they receive.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 01:13:11 PM
Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.
As to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.
New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.
And as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.
If I could offer a weird comparison...
When I used to play Everquest when I was like 13, dying S-U-C-K-E-D. You'd lose a shitload of experience, have to go get your corpse, and potentially die multiple times while trying to retrieve your equipment. The Angst Level for that blew. I would get so pissed, i'd run into the bathroom and pop pimples or ragequit.
When I used to play Asheron's Call, they had a vitae system...It was like a percentage loss on all stats and abilities. The more you died, the higher the vitae, which went away with time. The Angst was much lower, and I had a bunch more fun playing that game.
I can see what X-D is saying -- Certainly, my angst level will go up. Will I not be as risky? Hell no, I like taking risks in Armageddon regardless of post-death consequences. But -- It will be a bummer if I put a lot of CGP into a mundane who dies in a week or two, only to log in and be at square 1 anyways. I also did enjoy bouncing around from low-karma to high-karma, which will just take more...Careful planning, now, heh.
Why not give players a 'reset' on some long cooldown that refreshes all their char gen points to full? Maybe it can only be done once year, but it'll take the sting out of an unlucky death for 'expensive' character concepts.
Quote from: wizturbo on September 14, 2011, 01:23:44 PM
Here's an important question:
How do sponsered roles fall into this? Will players need to spend their banked char gen points to tweak these roles, or will some of them come with extra character gen points to play with?
If sponsered roles don't make you spend your own char gen points, that makes them much more enticing to play, which is a good thing in my opinion. Did you just play a d-elf sorc special app and spend all your char gen points, only to have them die a month later? Why not apply for that Templar role the staff are posting? While you wait for your char gen pool to regen, you can dish out some justice in the name of the Highlord.
That's a good question. I'm also hoping this will allow for more varieties of sponsored roles, like sergeants (or equivalent) of other clans besides the Byn, that the staff can call for if they see a spot for a particular role that they would like to see filled. Then extra char gen points can be used as an incentive to get more interested players to go for these roles, while still allowing players to spend from their own points.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 01:13:11 PM
Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.
Sure, by taking less risks you are being more careful, therefore less risks means less conflict. It's the player's decision, really. If the player wants more conflict, they will take more risks. If they prefer to attempt a very cautious life style, they'll take less risks. Armageddon needs both risk-takers and the overly cautious, and everyone in between. I still don't agree that the new karma point system will restrict conflict. Like I said, it's all up to the players.
QuoteAs to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.
New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.
I'm sure if your Drovian gets killed by some sort of bug, you could submit a request to restore your karma level. Otherwise, it's kind of poor form to reroll the same character, or continue rolling up high-karma characters, IMO.
QuoteAnd as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.
All the more reason to be more careful, calculating, and dare I say - realistic with your character? Especially the high-karma sorcerer types, who always have to fight an uphill battle now anyways.
Realized I hadn't said it, even though I intended to.
I really hope that this adds a new element to fluctuations of elementalists. Before, there would be threads of haters (myself included) every now and again about the sudden spike of magickal classes in game. My personal hope is that this change will dampen those spikes of interest. Sorry if you only like playing elementalists, but you shouldn't be able to. XD
Yeah, frankly, I don't see a cool-down between higher level magic classes as a problem, at all.
I do, however, think that the starting spells of sorcerers should be looked at, since they will be even more rare and difficult to play, now.
Quote from: Delirium on September 14, 2011, 01:47:08 PM
I do, however, think that the starting spells of sorcerers should be looked at, since they will be even more rare and difficult to play, now.
Agreed. The 'sorceror villian' concepts out there won't be very appealing under this system, because they'll cost a lot of char gen points and carry a high risk of early death.
While some of you think this is a good thing, I'd consider that closely. These are often the characters who create conflict and stir things up.
I'm pretty much completely OK with making sorcerers rare(er).
Quote from: Armaddict on September 14, 2011, 01:42:59 PM
Realized I hadn't said it, even though I intended to.
I really hope that this adds a new element to fluctuations of elementalists. Before, there would be threads of haters (myself included) every now and again about the sudden spike of magickal classes in game. My personal hope is that this change will dampen those spikes of interest. Sorry if you only like playing elementalists, but you shouldn't be able to. XD
I believe this will make magicker players work harder to be even more careful and stay alive longer creating more longer lived OMG fuckyouup magickers being alive in the game at one time. They will avoid the rest of the playerbase until uber even more under this system. Then the bitching will begin again.
Also, if they are working to keep them alive longer they'll have the karma back by the time it dies to replace it with another if they wish. It will decrease the frequency in spikes but the spikes will last longer and be even more impacting on the game.
QuoteAll the more reason to be more careful, calculating, and dare I say - realistic with your character? Especially the high-karma sorcerer types, who always have to fight an uphill battle now anyways.
More careful, less conflict, less fun, more realistic, less fun.
Somebody mentions something newly in the history...Eh, I could refute that but it would go against the rules of the GDB.
I find that people have been playing quite careful, Oh sure, the newbs die every day, but we are not talking about them because they do not have karma yet.
And being that I play pretty much everywhere, it is not a matter of, Oh, I'm not seeing stuff because it is somewhere else either. The General conflict level is down, the general longevity is up...WAY up. In the last 4 years the number of year plus PCs in the game at any one time is nothing short of amazing compared to even the 4 years before that.
And it does not even matter about what is current anyway, because the New system WILL serve to bring down the genral conflict level, How much remains to be seen. It WILL increase angst...that is a point I think will go up alot. It WILL increase griefing, Something that is rather easy to get away with. But by how much, that also remains to be seen.
One of the things that appeals to me most about this new system is that it covers what embitters many of us as we've gone through the game : special apps with extra perks.
I know I've thought about apping them several times over, and I never could justify to my satisfaction getting a skill boost here or some other bonus. So I thank the staff for giving us a list of perks we can look over and choose without going through the song and dance of impressing upon staff members.
I have to say, though, that one karma per month seems somewhat extreme. Almost a year between 8 karma roles? Two half-giants gets forces you to wait half a year before another? I play long term characters, but this seems to demand too much for just a game, even to me. I would suggest doubling the rate of regeneration, or at least half again with three karma every two months.
I have the slightest inkling that half a year or even years between high karma roles is just about where the staff wants it, but for the other roles, it just seems excessive.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 01:59:06 PM
And it does not even matter about what is current anyway, because the New system WILL serve to bring down the genral conflict level, How much remains to be seen. It WILL increase angst...that is a point I think will go up alot. It WILL increase griefing, Something that is rather easy to get away with. But by how much, that also remains to be seen.
That's a lot of "WILL".
Firstly, I think the general conflict level will remain the same or increase. Just from my perspective, I'll play risky no matter what, because I'm stupid that way. Just now, I'll be playing risky with some added ability to survive and influence the gameworld every second character.
No doubt angst will increase, in the short term. It already has. Fundamental change does that. But I've faith that the staff will monitor the situation and adjust as required.
I don't know how you define griefing. If templars or other capable parties aggressively hunting sorcs/nilazi/mindbenders/rogue elementalists is griefing, then I'm all for it. I'll never have the karma to roll any high karma class, but if by some trick I did, I would feel cheated if the role didn't involve constant risk.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 01:13:11 PM
Dude, being more careful by definition means taking less risks, taking less risks means making less conflict. Something that, IMO is at an all time low already. If you cannot see that...then I don't know what to say.
As to the angst, that is usually something that happens when somebody loses a PC to something they see as not their fault, be it code or PK. Currently, when that happens, they get upset, sure, but they can, if they wish, roll up almost exactly the same PC if they want, or maybe they want to try that drovian...whatever.
New system, You lose a PC and don't think it is your fault, but oh wait, the cost is now MUCH higher, not only did you lose the PC, you used karma on the race and sub so you actually lost a PC AND 3 or more karma. So, angst level MUCH higher.
And as somebody else mentioned, High karma guilds are already targets...this will make the griefers see them as that much bigger targets, some people knowing that killing that newb sorc means that player can't make anything above HG for several months...Heh.
X-D brings up a really interesting point and while my initial thought was, "damn, he's right, and we should be finding ways to create MORE conflict not less." I then realized that this system would make those super-powerful-awesome-karma-class players more protective and take fewer risks(at least for the first few months ;) ) while the mundany-mundanes who are either saving Karma or have none anyway could take all the chances they like(read as: trying to kill every high-karma class they run into). One could keep pumping out human/dwarf/city elf ranger/warrior/assassin/burglar/pickpocket/merchant and play them as fast and loose as they liked, and with this system THAT would be the majority of classes and races statistically alive at any given time which ultimately better reflects the game world anyway.
So, while I still think X-D's assessment is correct, I feel like it may actually add that more realistic element back into the game where people are hungry to kill Magickers/Psionicists(even if initially it's based slightly on OOC grief-thinking) and the Magickers will have had options(based on their karma level) to help them survive and customize their Magick (making them more survivable/deadly anyway).
More Mundanes romping around and trying to actualize the 'longevity' requirement so that they can earn some Karma will most likely translate to higher Clan participation(high survivability chance) over solo-grebber(low survivability chance), ultimately helping the role-playing game world and I say that as an avid solo-player. I'm getting excited about what this change will do to player population centers and hoping that if it increases city clan numbers then THAT will inherently create opportunities for more conflict rather than pushing players to OOC'ly protect their Karma investments.
My concern is that the opposite feeling strikes people and their RL conscience nags them not to kill the magick-wielding-mul-assassin because they know it cost someone their full 8 Karma, and how this person is going to have to wait half an RL year to play that type of concept again.
My only question is: Will the option to boost a particular STAT also be added at a Karma cost? To be done after the pc has rolled and rerolled and perhaps the unluck of both their rolls leaving them less excited to type score and see a couple 'poor's and 'below average's and realizing they're stuck in this PC for the next 5 months. Or are those rare cases where a submit request to have a second reroll based on shitty circumstances would be entertained by the staff?
Quote from: wizturbo on September 14, 2011, 01:50:49 PM
Agreed. The 'sorceror villian' concepts out there won't be very appealing under this system, because they'll cost a lot of char gen points and carry a high risk of early death.
Very, very, very few players have the karma to just roll up sorcerors on their own. For the most part, everyone has to special app them... and getting a sorceror app approved has proven, in my experience, to take about as much time as it would take to regenerate all that karma, anyway. I think there will actually be
more sorcerors overall, since the process for getting one started has been streamlined. Anyway, time will tell.
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 14, 2011, 02:16:54 PM
Two half-giants gets forces you to wait half a year before another?
Haha
New karma system is p awesome then.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 01:59:06 PM
QuoteAll the more reason to be more careful, calculating, and dare I say - realistic with your character? Especially the high-karma sorcerer types, who always have to fight an uphill battle now anyways.
More careful, less conflict, less fun, more realistic, less fun.
Somebody mentions something newly in the history...Eh, I could refute that but it would go against the rules of the GDB.
I find that people have been playing quite careful, Oh sure, the newbs die every day, but we are not talking about them because they do not have karma yet.
And being that I play pretty much everywhere, it is not a matter of, Oh, I'm not seeing stuff because it is somewhere else either. The General conflict level is down, the general longevity is up...WAY up. In the last 4 years the number of year plus PCs in the game at any one time is nothing short of amazing compared to even the 4 years before that.
To me, being less careful means disregarding that aspect of survival that is supposed to be prevalent in this game. People want to live, but they also want to do stuff. So rather than do nothing at all, or go overboard, they do things they can reasonably manage. There's still conflict in that. It's manageable, often long-term conflict that allows for extended roleplay of the issue.
You can disagree with me about the history thing (which I mentioned) if you want. But in my opinion, you'd be wrong. That was a war between two PC clans. That's perhaps the purest form of conflict one will ever see in this game. That's PCs killing other PCs. You can't really deny that that is player conflict.
QuoteIt WILL increase griefing, Something that is rather easy to get away with. But by how much, that also remains to be seen.
I don't really expect normal, rule-abiding players to suddenly turn into griefers when this goes into effect. I have enough trust in players to put in a player complaint if things get out of hand.
I think we need some time for the new system to actually be applied to the game before we can speculate on certain changes. Keep in mind that staff are already considering the regeneration rate of these points and a lower time will help with "angst" or what I see as "coping with the loss of a PC". If you have something lower than a month that you think might work, you should propose it here and say why it would be better. Staff are taking suggestions after all.
I have a quick question for Morgenes, or anyone else with a good luck under the hood...
In Morgenes' description of the system on Staff Announcements, he mentions that if you spend skill bumps on a skill which branches you will not get that branch. Does this mean that
a) even if you pass the branch threshold you won't start with the skill which branches from it - but it will branch in-game once you start using the skill in question
or
b) if you skill bump past the branch threshold, you'll never branch?
I assume A but I want to be sure.
The nature of the beast is to protect investments.
Will more people join clans, sure, but that will not create conflict and will in fact cause even less. Since as it stands now, none of the clans are in conflict with each other and in fact go out of the way to make sure that is the case.
Of course staff and or players could step in and change that but I find that to be highly unlikely.
The old complaint of X karma class hides till he can come out and ubergank people will go up because not only will they continue to do that they will do it to a higher degree because now, instead of just having to worry about the PC, you will want to stay safe till at least part of the karma investment has regened. Where a Nilazi might have hid till he had certain spells he will now hide till he has some of the karma back and also more spells if not all of them. It only makes sense to do so.
Also, the higher karma classes will be more likely to be aggressive in a deadly way when they do come out of hiding. Doing so with the classes capable of one shotting people lowers risk.
Now, staff has already said they are looking at the karma regen rates, but I find that will be something very hard to balance out, Too low and the investment is so high as to slow the pace of the game to a crawl and effectively remove any sort of conflict coming from karma players, Too high and you might as well not even have it.
(edit)
Due to GDB rules I simply cannot say anything else about said war but that the "purity" Is far less then you think.
jstorrie,
Quote from: Morgenes on September 13, 2011, 12:47:08 PM
Did we say skill bumping does not autobranch you? If we did, that is incorrect. You can branch new skills through skill gains at character creation. You CANNOT apply skill gains to skills that were branched from skill gains in char generation.
It probably got lost in the many posts in this thread ;) The wording in the announcement can be a bit ambiguous, but I take it to mean you do not have access to those branched skills for skill bumping. You'll have them for use at their starting level once you get in-game.
As I mentioned in an earlier post staff have been discussing what happens if a character is killed prematurely or for dubious reasons early in the piece etc. We are still working out the details on a lot of this but it is likely that we will have an appeal process of some sort in these instances.
For sponsored roles - we're looking at several options for this from the status quo where clan staff give out a few bumps etc to starting character to instead having sponsored roles gifted the 3 CGP to spend on skill boosts as they please. These are things that staff are currently still working out and it is unlikely that you will be given a definitive answer until we announce that this system is ready to launch.
Quote from: jstorrie on September 14, 2011, 02:27:16 PM
I have a quick question for Morgenes, or anyone else with a good luck under the hood...
In Morgenes' description of the system on Staff Announcements, he mentions that if you spend skill bumps on a skill which branches you will not get that branch. Does this mean that
a) even if you pass the branch threshold you won't start with the skill which branches from it - but it will branch in-game once you start using the skill in question
or
b) if you skill bump past the branch threshold, you'll never branch?
I assume A but I want to be sure.
As I read it in Morg's and referenced in others
You can bump the standard skills - if that gets you to branch level, yes you'll have that skill in game branched (or maybe it will branch on first time).
What you won't be able to do is, bump it to branch level in char gen, then see the branch skill show up in char gen and be able to bump the branch skill.
Basically you can only bump beginning skills, but can bump them to branch level and benefit.
That was my take.
Quote from: Adhira on September 14, 2011, 02:33:22 PM
As I mentioned in an earlier post staff have been discussing what happens if a character is killed prematurely or for dubious reasons early in the piece etc. We are still working out the details on a lot of this but it is likely that we will have an appeal process of some sort in these instances.
For sponsored roles - we're looking at several options for this from the status quo where clan staff give out a few bumps etc to starting character to instead having sponsored roles gifted the 3 CGP to spend on skill boosts as they please. These are things that staff are currently still working out and it is unlikely that you will be given a definitive answer until we announce that this system is ready to launch.
I think tossing them 3 CGP is a good idea.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 01:59:06 PMThe General conflict level is down, the general longevity is up...WAY up. In the last 4 years the number of year plus PCs in the game at any one time is nothing short of amazing compared to even the 4 years before that.
This may be partly due to more people learning how to keep their PCs alive; it may also be partly due to the decrease in Halaster-like PC-holocaust events.
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 02:30:16 PM
I think we should agree to disagree with regard to the new karma system and conflict, considering the risk of derailing the thread into sources of conflict, conflict between clans, etc. It's a good thing to discuss though, if you want to make a new topic for it.
QuoteThe old complaint of X karma class hides till he can come out and ubergank people will go up because not only will they continue to do that they will do it to a higher degree because now, instead of just having to worry about the PC, you will want to stay safe till at least part of the karma investment has regened. Where a Nilazi might have hid till he had certain spells he will now hide till he has some of the karma back and also more spells if not all of them. It only makes sense to do so.
That's possible, sure. It's also possible that the players will want to do something instead of focusing on skill-grinding, and will play people, as they're getting a more uncommon chance to play a magicker and want to make it fun and worth their while.
QuoteAlso, the higher karma classes will be more likely to be aggressive in a deadly way when they do come out of hiding. Doing so with the classes capable of one shotting people lowers risk.
And increases their danger, which in turn creates more risk for people in other roles, like witch-hunters, lone travelers... I'm not seeing the downside here.
I'd probably like to see the skill bump pool separate from the karma pool used for race/guild/shiny new subguild selection, but still at least tied to player karma cap for max points and likely the same regen rate.. you could possibly even batch the new mundane subguilds in with the hypothetical skill pool if you wanted them to be slightly more common. Also, has there been any consideration given to allowing characters to access the pool for skill bumps post chargen? With everything tied into the karma pool no one could say it'd be done lightly since it affects what's accessible for your next character, but it seems like that could create an option for folks looking for a way to raise skills while offline.
Regardless, I look forward to seeing how this turns out and I'm glad to see some more tlc given to the current incarnation of Arm. ;D
1 sorc per year (or 3\4 of a year) per customer seems fair to me.
Quote from: jstorrie on September 14, 2011, 02:45:22 PM
Quote from: X-D on September 14, 2011, 01:59:06 PMThe General conflict level is down, the general longevity is up...WAY up. In the last 4 years the number of year plus PCs in the game at any one time is nothing short of amazing compared to even the 4 years before that.
This may be partly due to more people learning how to keep their PCs alive; it may also be partly due to the decrease in Halaster-like PC-holocaust events.
Agreed.
It could also be because people have discovered that character relationships add an intense amount of enjoyment and atmosphere to yourself and those around you, and relationships have far less impact when they cease to exist (such as death or not playing). Having folks your character hates, loves, is friendly with, socializes with, plots against, and even has a nemesis tends to be a much more rewarding (and sometimes angst filled).
Course, it could be because the sun is blue, the phase of the moons, or the down economy. We all apparently perceive and reason differently.
Lancer, that is a fantastic idea and would make my casual play times much less stressful.
Newbies die everyday and newbies can stir up conflict with or without karma. It's not newness that decides if you can or can't stir up a bunch of plots, I've noticed in my limited time playing alot of the conflict seems to be squashed rather quickly. Far to quickly for my liking, but hey it's me.
I've seen conflict in alot of places that could lead to very interesting things get downplayed, or washed under the rug. I find it at times annoying, though I wasn't seeing the whole picture and only a portion of it. I live for conflict enjoy it thoroughly especially the longer lived feuds.
All I seeing is people complaining cause they won't be able to play a sorcerer, or nilaz or whatever else is higher up on the karma scale. Why does it take those specific guilds to cause conflict? I'm pretty sure, a human assassin/warrior/whathave you can bring about a lot more conflict then just one, uberpowered asher or psion. You may actually have to park yourself on a stool, and find others to become friends with and before you stir up some trouble. But hey suddenly you just gave others shit to do not only your friends, but those your kicking in the sack as well. Instead of relying upon your own powerful self to do it.
that's just the way I look at it.
edited to add: can't wait to see the new subguilds.
Quote from: Lancer on September 14, 2011, 02:47:08 PMAlso, has there been any consideration given to allowing characters to access the pool for skill bumps post chargen? With everything tied into the karma pool no one could say it'd be done lightly since it affects what's accessible for your next character, but it seems like that could create an option for folks looking for a way to raise skills while offline.
+1 to the casual player. At least they can slowly bump skills over time at essentially no cost (if they only bump 1 a month or whatever the CGP regen is going to be) if they can't manage to make it online to do it IG. And they're still not going to match up to someone that IS playing, and bumping multiple skills during that period. This is an awesome idea.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 14, 2011, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: Lancer on September 14, 2011, 02:47:08 PMAlso, has there been any consideration given to allowing characters to access the pool for skill bumps post chargen? With everything tied into the karma pool no one could say it'd be done lightly since it affects what's accessible for your next character, but it seems like that could create an option for folks looking for a way to raise skills while offline.
+1 to the casual player. At least they can slowly bump skills over time at essentially no cost (if they only bump 1 a month or whatever the CGP regen is going to be) if they can't manage to make it online to do it IG. And they're still not going to match up to someone that IS playing, and bumping multiple skills during that period. This is an awesome idea.
+2. This could
streamline an existing option (Skill Change) in the Request Tool.
You might still be required to submit logs of training sessions, but, if you had the CGP available, approval would be usual. Without the CGP, you just wouldn't be allowed to do it.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 14, 2011, 03:41:18 PM
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 14, 2011, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: Lancer on September 14, 2011, 02:47:08 PMAlso, has there been any consideration given to allowing characters to access the pool for skill bumps post chargen? With everything tied into the karma pool no one could say it'd be done lightly since it affects what's accessible for your next character, but it seems like that could create an option for folks looking for a way to raise skills while offline.
+1 to the casual player. At least they can slowly bump skills over time at essentially no cost (if they only bump 1 a month or whatever the CGP regen is going to be) if they can't manage to make it online to do it IG. And they're still not going to match up to someone that IS playing, and bumping multiple skills during that period. This is an awesome idea.
+2. This could streamline an existing option (Skill Change) in the Request Tool.
You might still be required to submit logs of training sessions, but, if you had the CGP available, approval would be usual. Without the CGP, you just wouldn't be allowed to do it.
I like this, a lot.
So, just saying thanks for all the hard work staff.
I don't like that desert elves incur a cost. I was under the impression that the first 3 options would not subtract karma? Desert elves roles are already, in my experience, isolated enough. I don't think limiting them even more will be fun for delf players.
Quote from: HavokBlue on September 14, 2011, 04:31:04 PM
I don't like that desert elves incur a cost. I was under the impression that the first 3 options would not subtract karma? Desert elves roles are already, in my experience, isolated enough. I don't think limiting them even more will be fun for delf players.
As I understand it, Guilds and races which used to require 3 karma or less will not, by themselves, incur a cost. I may have misread something, though.
In Morgenes' example, choosing a desert elf incurs a cost. Maybe I'm misreading something?
I kind of like how desert elves cost. It's the only role that I can afford right now and I feel it'd give me an incentive to keep the character going on longer since my main problem is getting bored and storing/dying.
I play only basic race mundanes.
I play a lot of older guys.
Finally a way for me to make my older "experienced" characters not get stomped into the ground/outshined by 15 year old characters who have been alive for a game year.
This new system FTW.
Imagine also if you didn't manage to play too much. The proposed idea of allowing folks to use CGP's to skill bump AFTER char gen would also make sure you don't get surpassed (at least, as badly) by those same characters if they ARE playing more than you.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 14, 2011, 03:41:18 PM
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 14, 2011, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: Lancer on September 14, 2011, 02:47:08 PMAlso, has there been any consideration given to allowing characters to access the pool for skill bumps post chargen? With everything tied into the karma pool no one could say it'd be done lightly since it affects what's accessible for your next character, but it seems like that could create an option for folks looking for a way to raise skills while offline.
+1 to the casual player. At least they can slowly bump skills over time at essentially no cost (if they only bump 1 a month or whatever the CGP regen is going to be) if they can't manage to make it online to do it IG. And they're still not going to match up to someone that IS playing, and bumping multiple skills during that period. This is an awesome idea.
+2. This could streamline an existing option (Skill Change) in the Request Tool.
You might still be required to submit logs of training sessions, but, if you had the CGP available, approval would be usual. Without the CGP, you just wouldn't be allowed to do it.
I like this. It would help casual players out even more.
One day, that byn breed everyone wails on shows up to practice and stomps you all.
I like this change and appreciate the work that's been put into it. I'm really excited about the karma subguilds! I hope there are like... three dozen different new ones to choose from.
So yeah, pretty awesome... Just saying 8)
Not all skills in zalanthas are equal, some go up pretty damn slow, because they are uber powerful. With this new system it treats all skills the same, 1 point will always bump up a skill level. Is there any way to keep people from rolling out the gate with some very badass characters?
Quote from: HavokBlue on September 14, 2011, 06:22:14 PM
One day, that byn breed everyone wails on shows up to practice and stomps you all.
I haven't really played a sparring character since skill levels went visible, but one mastery level per month, in most skills, is nothing interesting. (I could see weapon skills being ineligible for this kind of advancement, or requiring double points.) Anyone who's sparring regularly should easily blow past you.
It would mostly help with the same sort of situations for which the Skill Change request was used: my ranger in the Arm of the Dragon wants to learn archery; his sergeant wants him to learn archery; the glorious army of the Highlord has 50 000 other soldiers virtually practicing archery inside the city walls-- but I only play ten hours a week and we don't have a target object and it's dumb for us to do hunting trips. Skills that should be improving but aren't.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 14, 2011, 05:39:39 PM
Imagine also if you didn't manage to play too much. The proposed idea of allowing folks to use CGP's to skill bump AFTER char gen would also make sure you don't get surpassed (at least, as badly) by those same characters if they ARE playing more than you.
People seem to be jumping on the bandwagon with this idea. I think it is too powerful.
Besides, it would be usable by the players who were playing a lot as well. Having a skill-bump as part of your background is one thing, but playing a character "full time"
and getting an additional bump every month for "free" seems to be incredibly uber-powerful, difficult to police, easy to abuse, and discouraging to new players.
And casual players would
still not be able to keep up if this were available to all players with karma.
Quote from: Cutthroat on September 14, 2011, 06:05:36 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 14, 2011, 03:41:18 PM
Quote from: drunkendwarf on September 14, 2011, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: Lancer on September 14, 2011, 02:47:08 PMAlso, has there been any consideration given to allowing characters to access the pool for skill bumps post chargen? With everything tied into the karma pool no one could say it'd be done lightly since it affects what's accessible for your next character, but it seems like that could create an option for folks looking for a way to raise skills while offline.
+1 to the casual player. At least they can slowly bump skills over time at essentially no cost (if they only bump 1 a month or whatever the CGP regen is going to be) if they can't manage to make it online to do it IG. And they're still not going to match up to someone that IS playing, and bumping multiple skills during that period. This is an awesome idea.
+2. This could streamline an existing option (Skill Change) in the Request Tool.
You might still be required to submit logs of training sessions, but, if you had the CGP available, approval would be usual. Without the CGP, you just wouldn't be allowed to do it.
I like this. It would help casual players out even more.
I also like this. As long as it requires logs and IC work to do, it could be really great.
I don't see how its helping casuals if you have to log in and RP to get it. It's only helping off-peakers that way.
I've been playing this game for a few years now, and for the past year I haven't had the play times required to really sink into a role. I thought with my recent change in scenery that perhaps I might get a chance to get back in, but alas that is not the case.
Given this, I've had a bit of an issue with the karma situation, and I'm glad that staff is making an effort to change it. It's not going to change completely, but I do feel as if there are more options available to me now as a casual below the radar type player. I play hard and fast, making lots of mistakes, but I have a blast doing it.
So let's say that I am a novice karma level with full regen, so that would give me 2/2. Let's also say that I hit the special app button at char gen, and it gets excepted, so that puts me at 5/2. Would this allow me to play magicker guilds like a drovian? Or is drovian/elkrosian and higher(in the current karma tree), going to be available to only veterans and above? Do veterans get the opportunity to play drovians and above? Or is it only available to spec apped "Veterans" and higher?
If I'm interpreting Morgenes' explanation properly, then yes, you would get to play a drovian (or whatever else is available for n+3 or less karma.)
Your karma would then drop to 1 current/2 max, and would take either one or another four months to fully regenerate. I think one, but I'm not sure about that bit.
We are not planning to allow CGP to be spent at any time other than chargen.
It seems like putting karma on a cooldown will restrict inexperienced players the most, complicating the learning curve. It takes time to learn to play karma guilds/races, and this seems like it'll only drag out the process.
I would think everyone would think twice about creating these roles because of the costs involved.
It seems like it'll reduce the number of karma guilds and races, which is maybe what the staff want. This will slow or stop the rate at which players learn to play these roles well (either from lack of practice or lack of exposure to them to learn about them), eventually leading to an eventual drought of good talent for these roles.
I forgot to post that boosted up subguilds that can be used with charter generation points is a great idea. It meshes well with the karma system, allowing the greatest benefit to lower/non karma roles while keeping the options open for higher karma roles (even if they'd have to be through special application). It saves veteran players time that they might use to raise/grind their skills to an acceptable level, freeing them up to intact, drive and participating in plots. While also allowing them to round out their charter so that not all new characters (not counting special apps) have to be unskilled. The system seems well rounded and fits very well.
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on September 14, 2011, 08:56:03 PM
It seems like putting karma on a cooldown will restrict inexperienced players the most, complicating the learning curve. It takes time to learn to play karma guilds/races, and this seems like it'll only drag out the process.
Learning to play a sorc could be pretty rough. But people with low to moderate karma can only, at worst, set themselves back a few months.
I think it's a good thing that this encourages non-risky play; many of us play PCs that are really insanely oblivious to danger.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 14, 2011, 09:10:10 PM
I think it's a good thing that this encourages non-risky play; many of us play PCs that are really insanely oblivious to danger.
More players won't even choose to try some karma roles because of the upfront investment, instead choosing easier things that they know that can do. Why play a caster when instead there is the choice to play of a mundane role with a karma subguild and/or skill boosts that have no inherent ic restrictions that come with them.
Risky role-play, when it is unrealistic of course, is bad. But the risk I'm talking about is really conflict that is good for the game, and fun. Some examples: Telling the Tuluki woman/man that you love that you are an abomination. A sorcerer/psionicist/elementalist living in Tuluk, because that is their home and they don't know what else to do. A mul telling a templar where to stick it. A nilazi coming out to his/her elementalist friends that he/she is touched by the void. These are the kinds of risk I'm talking about, those that create conflict. Not going out hunting alone because of boredom. That's eventually always a bad idea.
Quote from: Desertman on September 14, 2011, 05:32:00 PM
I play only basic race mundanes.
I play a lot of older guys.
Finally a way for me to make my older "experienced" characters not get stomped into the ground/outshined by 15 year old characters who have been alive for a game year.
This new system FTW.
Bingo. Always hated that coded skills have to catch up to match background with an older character.
I think this idea is great. The option to spend Karma to make a mundane character more fleshed out is awesome. I can definitely see this changing the demographics of what kinds of skillsets are played.
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on September 14, 2011, 09:43:37 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 14, 2011, 09:10:10 PM
I think it's a good thing that this encourages non-risky play; many of us play PCs that are really insanely oblivious to danger.
More players won't even choose to try some karma roles because of the upfront investment, instead choosing easier things that they know that can do. Why play a caster when instead there is the choice to play of a mundane role with a karma subguild and/or skill boosts that have no inherent ic restrictions that come with them.
That may be true, but a good thing.
Since I'm not the greatest at staying alive, I keep spreadsheets for my characters so I can keep track of who I've met with each character, what I know about them IC, etc.
In one of my recent short lived characters, just an average Joe, living in an average town, I knew 15 people by name, and 7 of those, he knew IC were magickers. Another I had some OOC suspicions about magick ability.
Kinda makes it hard to view magick as rare, powerful, freakish and scary when they're the majority.
Also, the ability for subguild crafting classes being able to master their given crafting art via spending points it awesome sauce.
As it stands, I always felt like subguild crafting was more of an investment than it was worth because you can't master them.
I am a little dissapointed that you can't spend these points to master a branched crafting skill after the fact.
For example, a ranger being able to master "tanning" or "fletchery" or something like that because its a crafting skill that was obtained after character generation.
Special app request after the fact perhaps?
"Hey, I just branched tanning and would like to spend my points I have in stock so that I will be able to master this crafting skill."
Thoughts?
I hope Master Chef is one of the options.
It'd be extra special if mastercraftin' subguilds included cavilish.
Quote from: Desertman on September 15, 2011, 11:02:44 AM
Also, the ability for subguild crafting classes being able to master their given crafting art via spending points it awesome sauce.
As it stands, I always felt like subguild crafting was more of an investment than it was worth because you can't master them.
I am a little dissapointed that you can't spend these points to master a branched crafting skill after the fact.
For example, a ranger being able to master "tanning" or "fletchery" or something like that because its a crafting skill that was obtained after character generation.
Special app request after the fact perhaps?
"Hey, I just branched tanning and would like to spend my points I have in stock so that I will be able to master this crafting skill."
Thoughts?
No mere thoughts have been given, but flat out denials of anything beyond character generation. Besides, you don't spend points to let subguilds master their crafts, you spend points to get subguilds that
can master their crafts. Subtle difference in wording but a world of difference in implementation.
Quote from: Down Under on September 15, 2011, 11:14:48 AM
I hope Master Chef is one of the options.
Master house servant! I seriously want a ranger / master house servant.
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on September 14, 2011, 09:43:37 PM
More players won't even choose to try some karma roles because of the upfront investment, instead choosing easier things that they know that can do. Why play a caster when instead there is the choice to play of a mundane role with a karma subguild and/or skill boosts that have no inherent ic restrictions that come with them.
I disagree with the premise. If players want to play a role they've never tried before, they'll play that role. They'll just treat the role more carefully, as though it were a special application that they really don't want to lose.
I like the idea of standardized awarding of Karma, the new rules for obtaining it as well.
The one thing I am not sure about is the fact that most people with Karma have the advantage of OOC knowledge better than my own. I struggle in the world when I don't know how to make the best obsidian, or where to find essential and powerful items, ect. Or the map itself and moving between cities the best way, or any of that. They already had the advantage of being able to start characters that have advanced races/class combinations.
But, at least when they started a Mundane Human Assassin(like I potentially could) they all started with Novice Backstab, ect and the same set of skills as myself(unless it was a special app). Now though, they will have the potential to create these basic classes, and with 5 Karma be able to then bump 4 skills +1 level from the start, or even perhaps +2 in certain?
So, more options, more potential, and now basically better starting characters on average each time they create a character unless the person is unlucky, or reckless(which I doubt after spending Karma to obtain these bumped skills). Now, using these starting at "Apprentice" or higher skills, they will advance quicker than they already did normally, obtaining their wealth and items and coded power at a quicker rate with their OOC knowledge now combined with their OOCly increased power.
Perhaps its just because I am on the outside looking in, but for some reason it bothers me a bit.
There are those of us who will never play a magicker in our Arm career, perhaps, and we've learned to accept that. But, now when we play our mundane human warriors, we have to accept the fact that someone else, who has enjoyed tremendously powerful characters in the past will start with a coded advantage of higher skills and special sub-guild bonuses.
:/
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 15, 2011, 11:27:43 AM
Quote from: Desertman on September 15, 2011, 11:02:44 AM
Also, the ability for subguild crafting classes being able to master their given crafting art via spending points it awesome sauce.
As it stands, I always felt like subguild crafting was more of an investment than it was worth because you can't master them.
I am a little dissapointed that you can't spend these points to master a branched crafting skill after the fact.
For example, a ranger being able to master "tanning" or "fletchery" or something like that because its a crafting skill that was obtained after character generation.
Special app request after the fact perhaps?
"Hey, I just branched tanning and would like to spend my points I have in stock so that I will be able to master this crafting skill."
Thoughts?
No mere thoughts have been given, but flat out denials of anything beyond character generation. Besides, you don't spend points to let subguilds master their crafts, you spend points to get subguilds that can master their crafts. Subtle difference in wording but a world of difference in implementation.
Reading back up you are correct. Meh. Sadness.
Quote from: AreteX on September 15, 2011, 12:21:27 PM
I like the idea of standardized awarding of Karma, the new rules for obtaining it as well.
The one thing I am not sure about is the fact that most people with Karma have the advantage of OOC knowledge better than my own. I struggle in the world when I don't know how to make the best obsidian, or where to find essential and powerful items, ect. Or the map itself and moving between cities the best way, or any of that. They already had the advantage of being able to start characters that have advanced races/class combinations.
But, at least when they started a Mundane Human Assassin(like I potentially could) they all started with Novice Backstab, ect and the same set of skills as myself(unless it was a special app). Now though, they will have the potential to create these basic classes, and with 5 Karma be able to then bump 4 skills +1 level from the start, or even perhaps +2 in certain?
So, more options, more potential, and now basically better starting characters on average each time they create a character unless the person is unlucky, or reckless(which I doubt after spending Karma to obtain these bumped skills). Now, using these starting at "Apprentice" or higher skills, they will advance quicker than they already did normally, obtaining their wealth and items and coded power at a quicker rate with their OOC knowledge now combined with their OOCly increased power.
Perhaps its just because I am on the outside looking in, but for some reason it bothers me a bit.
There are those of us who will never play a magicker in our Arm career, perhaps, and we've learned to accept that. But, now when we play our mundane human warriors, we have to accept the fact that someone else, who has enjoyed tremendously powerful characters in the past will start with a coded advantage of higher skills and special sub-guild bonuses.
:/
To be fair ... we already did. Pretty sure certain sponsored roles start off over 'absolute novice'. :D And there are always people who've been around a bit when you start, unless the world just burned down. There's not really enough of a player base to get marginalized, and clans give a ton of support in OOC knowledge areas. Also clans, like employers, don't want someone who has necessarily mastered a skill but someone with the essential knowledge for them to train up proper. As a non-karma PC, you've got a ton of that sort of potential and can find a place for yourself easily even with more experienced people around. ;) It already happens plenty!
Of course, I'm not resigned to never having karma, but I'm still young. When I turn 21 or 23/24 (whatnot) I can tell people 'hey, my brain's mature now, restart my trust meter - also do you know any places hiring computer science majors'. :D
The call and postings for Sponsored roles are fine with bumped skills. I can even apply for those and perhaps actually get one of them!
What I meant by the majority of my post was the fact that now skills will be bumped for everyday mundane characters with no sponsorship required whatsoever.
I suppose it isn't that big of a deal, really, its just one more thing that not having Karma that will make me sad.
Quote from: Desertman on September 15, 2011, 12:29:23 PM
Reading back up you are correct. Meh. Sadness.
Oh, don't be sad! Think about it : these new subguilds might have the leeway allow you to get the supporting skills that are oh-so valuable. Like a spearmaker with the ability to make poles. That would be progress there.
Quote from: AreteX on September 15, 2011, 12:40:52 PM
The call and postings for Sponsored roles are fine with bumped skills. I can even apply for those and perhaps actually get one of them!
What I meant by the majority of my post was the fact that now skills will be bumped for everyday mundane characters with no sponsorship required whatsoever.
I suppose it isn't that big of a deal, really, its just one more thing that not having Karma that will make me sad.
I think you can still potentially special app for them. If I desperately want master-level flower arranging (or whatever extended subguild) to be possible for me I might try that.
That is a valid use of special application, right?
Well Aretex.
You can take comfort in the thought that people with bumped skills will (according to many people on here) Play more carefully and so not improve as fast.
And does anybody else other then me find amusement in the number of people who think people don't play a PC carefully because it is not karma or whatever?
Quote from: Kalai on September 15, 2011, 12:11:51 PM
Quote from: Down Under on September 15, 2011, 11:14:48 AM
I hope Master Chef is one of the options.
Master house servant! I seriously want a ranger / master house servant.
Finally, rangers can master floristry!
Quote from: musashi on September 15, 2011, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on September 14, 2011, 09:43:37 PM
More players won't even choose to try some karma roles because of the upfront investment, instead choosing easier things that they know that can do. Why play a caster when instead there is the choice to play of a mundane role with a karma subguild and/or skill boosts that have no inherent ic restrictions that come with them.
I disagree with the premise. If players want to play a role they've never tried before, they'll play that role. They'll just treat the role more carefully, as though it were a special application that they really don't want to lose.
PKs are going to take on more meaning. Murderers (killing without a good reason) will be treated with much more contempt. This is assuming you have some empathy :)
Quote from: janeshephard on September 15, 2011, 01:09:02 PM
PKs are going to take on more meaning. Murderers (killing without a good reason) will be treated with much more contempt. This is assuming you have some empathy :)
Targeting people because they're a new face and only have a handful of gear will take a little more thought, too.
These all sound like awesome features to me. :D
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 15, 2011, 12:47:22 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 15, 2011, 12:29:23 PM
Reading back up you are correct. Meh. Sadness.
Oh, don't be sad! Think about it : these new subguilds might have the leeway allow you to get the supporting skills that are oh-so valuable. Like a spearmaker with the ability to make poles. That would be progress there.
Your optimisim is catchy. :)
Good point.
I wonder if we will have the option with our current characters to make little tweaks based off of the new system once it is implemented.
I mean really, I would at least like the option to give my current pc a little tweak here and there when the new system goes live since I would have had more/better customization options if the system had existed when I made the PC.
Quote from: Desertman on September 15, 2011, 01:54:37 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 15, 2011, 12:47:22 PM
Quote from: Desertman on September 15, 2011, 12:29:23 PM
Reading back up you are correct. Meh. Sadness.
Oh, don't be sad! Think about it : these new subguilds might have the leeway allow you to get the supporting skills that are oh-so valuable. Like a spearmaker with the ability to make poles. That would be progress there.
Your optimisim is catchy. :)
Good point.
I wonder if we will have the option with our current characters to make little tweaks based off of the new system once it is implemented.
I mean really, I would at least like the option to give my current pc a little tweak here and there when the new system goes live since I would have had more/better customization options if the system had existed when I made the PC.
I think Adhira said a few times that none of the changes would affect existing PC's. I agree, it'd be cool, but it kind of goes in line with the theory behind karma anyways. You don't get to reap the benefits until after your current PC dies or you store.
I'll wait to experiment with the new system before commenting.
However, I am sure Staff is gonna be swamped with repeated Account Notes requests, by players who want to keep reviewing their Karma/CGP status and changes thereof.
I don't know if anything's planned to take that into account - but I think an online Account Notes option available for players to check directly from the Request Tool will help greatly.
And also, if an account is awarded or reduced any CGPs, an email should be automatically sent to them, with the details (whatever the Staff sees fit of course i.e. (Name of Staff member who changed CGP, date, time, reason for awarding/reducing, amount awarded/reduced, special mention of event or RP which led to the award/reduction, tips for future course of action to rectify (in case of reduction).....etc. )
Also, as far as the longevity part of the CGP award system goes, I think it might get somewhat problematic. In the sense, a PC's longevity depends on various things:
1) The location s/he plays in - a city-based merchant could easily manage to live much longer than others. A rinthi assassin would have things harder. A rinthi c-elf would probably have things slightly harder than their non-elven counterparts. A tablelands-based sorceror might have it even harder.
2) The role s/he plays - Again, a non-controversial role would definitely be advantageous to play, to have a longer life span, as compared to the opposite.
3) Guild and Race will also factor into this.
4) Exposure: If I was a member of the Guild, and I was in touch with some members of the militia or an Oashi aide, my chances of death would be higher than if I was a member of the Guild who just stayed inside the alleys all the time.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Longevity is quite a tricky and subjective attribute to quantify. Laying down an arbitrary number (for example: atleast 15 days played in-game, or, atleast 2 months RL since char-creation) - may not be the correct way to go about it.
Last but not the least, this may lead to players just sitting holed up in "safe-spots" biding their time, just so they can reach the required time-limit to achieve the Longevity CGP.
Well, on the longevity.
First, it is only 1 point.
Second, it is not an automated system. Staff still has to award that point and I am pretty sure they are not going to award the point because you made a PC and logged in and idled in the gaj an hour a day for 6 months or anything like that.
Thirdly, I don't see anywhere that there is to be a hard and fast rule on it anyway. Not like If your PC logs 15 days played and or 3 months played, you get 1 point.
Far more likely that the situation of the PC is looked at, and likely, more then 1 PC. If you have 6 1 week PCs then 1 6 month PC then another 5 1 week PCs, I would not think you would earn the longevity point. More likely that staff will look at your average.
There have been people who have had first PCs last more then a year, but to me that does not prove you have the longevity. It only shows it for that one PC, not game knowledge as a whole.
But still, it is only 1 point.
Quote from: X-D on September 15, 2011, 02:26:58 PM
Well, on the longevity.
First, it is only 1 point.
Second, it is not an automated system. Staff still has to award that point and I am pretty sure they are not going to award the point because you made a PC and logged in and idled in the gaj an hour a day for 6 months or anything like that.
Thirdly, I don't see anywhere that there is to be a hard and fast rule on it anyway. Not like If your PC logs 15 days played and or 3 months played, you get 1 point.
Far more likely that the situation of the PC is looked at, and likely, more then 1 PC. If you have 6 1 week PCs then 1 6 month PC then another 5 1 week PCs, I would not think you would earn the longevity point. More likely that staff will look at your average.
There have been people who have had first PCs last more then a year, but to me that does not prove you have the longevity. It only shows it for that one PC, not game knowledge as a whole.
But still, it is only 1 point.
I was under the impression it was longevity of the Player, which is why it was 1 point. I MIGHT BE WRONG!!
The original posts by Adhira and Morgenes talk about how CGP points will be awarded once the new system is implemented.
What I'd like to know is, how will this affect basic Karma point gain/loss?
For example, if I'm a newbie with 1 karma, and I manage to earn 8 CGP points with my current PC, will my karma be changed to 8?
or
If I am an existing player with 8 karma, and I don't manage to earn any karma with my current PC, will my karma be changed to 1?
OR
Will Karma just become obsolete, and CGP become the sole dominant system? i.e. A player with 8 karma, who spends 8 CGP on his PC, will be forced to re-earn all 8 CGPs before he can create another 8 karma PC? If so, what we'll be doing is - changing from a long-term Karma earning system, to, a system which forces players to earn CGP from each PC to the next.
In effect, even if said player has experience with the magick system, knows about Zalanthan society, communicates well with Staff and other clan members, contributes to the game, shows leadership qualities and shows a decent ability to keep his/her PC alive, the player will not be given any long-term benefits, unless s/he continues to repeatedly show the same qualities with each new PC played.
Will greatly appreciate some in-depth clarifications from the Staff on these points. Thank you.
I don't understand why you would freak out about these criteria. Do you really think they're all brand new?
Do you really think there are many 8-karma players out there today who haven't had at least one character last 6 months or so?
The criteria aren't brand new, it's basically the kind of thought process staff went through when awarding karma, we've just formalised it a it more so we can have some consistency.
The longevity karma is not for how long your pc lives, it's how long you've been an active player.
Karma is CGP. If you are newbie you have 0 karma which is the same as saying 0 CGP. If you have 8 karma you will have 8 CGP. If you never 'use' that karma for a karma guild, subguild or skill boost you will always have 8 CGP. If you use 4 points to make your next character you will have 4 points that will regenerate over time till you have the full 8 available again. There is no 're-earning' it's an automated sytem that regenerates over time.
Sounds complicated.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 15, 2011, 02:43:08 PM
I don't understand why you would freak out about these criteria. Do you really think they're all brand new?
Do you really think there are many 8-karma players out there today who haven't had at least one character last 6 months or so?
Not freaking at all Moe, just trying to figure out if this is gonna be a hybrid system, or, based more on CGP, or what?
Adhira's original post says "ArmageddonMUD operates a Karma system designed to open up the more complicated, powerful and RP challenging roles to players. The awarding of Karma has been a somewhat ad-hoc process with many shortfalls. We have redesigned the process to outline a set of criteria that staff will use when awarding (and removing) karma from a player account. "
But his post and Morg's post, then go on to talk more about CGP system.
Lemme try and rephrase: I understand from some of the posts I've read so far, that the CGP system is gonna be automated. If yes, what will the criteria for the automated system be? (How can one automate awarding a CGP point for knowledge of social and racial structures for example?). If no, then it will have to be some Staff member who manually adds/deducts the CGP from each player.
Similarly, will the Karma system continue as it is currently set up? If so, it is again dependent on Staff members awarding/reducing Karma points.
I guess I'm trying to figure out if its gonna be completely automated, semi-automated, or, Staff-dependent (ad-hoc as Adhira's post says).
Quote from: Adhira on September 15, 2011, 02:52:03 PM
The criteria aren't brand new, it's basically the kind of thought process staff went through when awarding karma, we've just formalised it a it more so we can have some consistency.
The longevity karma is not for how long your pc lives, it's how long you've been an active player.
Karma is CGP. If you are newbie you have 0 karma which is the same as saying 0 CGP. If you have 8 karma you will have 8 CGP. If you never 'use' that karma for a karma guild, subguild or skill boost you will always have 8 CGP. If you use 4 points to make your next character you will have 4 points that will regenerate over time till you have the full 8 available again. There is no 're-earning' it's an automated sytem that regenerates over time.
Thanks for clarifying that point Adhira - much appreciated.
Quote from: Incognito on September 15, 2011, 02:59:23 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 15, 2011, 02:43:08 PM
I don't understand why you would freak out about these criteria. Do you really think they're all brand new?
Do you really think there are many 8-karma players out there today who haven't had at least one character last 6 months or so?
Not freaking at all Moe, just trying to figure out if this is gonna be a hybrid system, or, based more on CGP, or what?
Err, sorry, my post wasn't in response to yours.
Anyway, CGP aren't awarded by the criteria. You get them at a rate of 1 per RL month, accumulating a number of points up to your karma level. Or at least that's how I think it works... lol. Yeah, it is a tad confusing.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 15, 2011, 03:02:39 PM
Anyway, CGP aren't awarded by the criteria. You get them at a rate of 1 per RL month, accumulating a number of points up to your karma level. Or at least that's how I think it works... lol. Yeah, it is a tad confusing.
That's exactly the way the staff put it. Nothing confusing about it other than other people rephrasing it on less concrete terms.
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 15, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 15, 2011, 03:02:39 PM
Anyway, CGP aren't awarded by the criteria. You get them at a rate of 1 per RL month, accumulating a number of points up to your karma level. Or at least that's how I think it works... lol. Yeah, it is a tad confusing.
That's exactly the way the staff put it. Nothing confusing about it other than other people rephrasing it on less concrete terms.
So would it be correct to state that: The karma system will now be based on the various criteria mentioned in Adhira's post. It will still be controlled by Staff, but, it will be more effectively channeled through the various criteria listed. And, CGP on the other hand can be used based on what you have on-hand, and will regen automatically at the rate of 1 per month?
Quote from: Incognito on September 15, 2011, 03:21:28 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on September 15, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 15, 2011, 03:02:39 PM
Anyway, CGP aren't awarded by the criteria. You get them at a rate of 1 per RL month, accumulating a number of points up to your karma level. Or at least that's how I think it works... lol. Yeah, it is a tad confusing.
That's exactly the way the staff put it. Nothing confusing about it other than other people rephrasing it on less concrete terms.
So would it be correct to state that: The karma system will now be based on the various criteria mentioned in Adhira's post. It will still be controlled by Staff, but, it will be more effectively channeled through the various criteria listed. And, CGP on the other hand can be used based on what you have on-hand, and will regen automatically at the rate of 1 per month?
Basically, yep.
Karma is still mostly the same as it's been, but also it's your max CGP.
Karma is still awarded manually. The criteria are mostly a formalization of existing unwritten (or at least unpublished) guidelines for handing it out.
CGP's go down when spent on a character options/boosts/whatever and go back up 1 point per month automatically.
Quote from: Incognito on September 15, 2011, 03:21:28 PM
So would it be correct to state that: The karma system will now be based on the various criteria mentioned in Adhira's post. It will still be controlled by Staff, but, it will be more effectively channeled through the various criteria listed. And, CGP on the other hand can be used based on what you have on-hand, and will regen automatically at the rate of 1 per month?
Not very wrong, but only for the fact that these criteria aren't new. All they've done is stated limits for how much karma each criteria can earn.
Otherwise, you're spot on.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on September 15, 2011, 03:32:46 PM
Karma is still mostly the same as it's been, but also it's your max CGP.
Unless you special app, in which case if you have the max karma ( 8 ) you can ask for 3 more CGPs (making your CGP total for that PC 11).
The only useful input I have on this change is regarding the time it takes to regenerate "points".
I'd rather have them regenerate quicker than one point a month. Maybe once every two weeks, or even once every week.
We're talking about the enjoyment of the players, playing what they want to play. If you force a player who doesn't want to something to play something, they will just decide not to play. We need all the players we can get logging in as often as possible.
Quote from: mansa on September 15, 2011, 05:57:42 PM
The only useful input I have on this change is regarding the time it takes to regenerate "points".
I'd rather have them regenerate quicker than one point a month. Maybe once every two weeks, or even once every week.
We're talking about the enjoyment of the players, playing what they want to play. If you force a player who doesn't want to something to play something, they will just decide not to play. We need all the players we can get logging in as often as possible.
About the best way I could have put that, and this was my main concern from the beginning.
I agree with Mansa specifically in the case of the exsisting karma layout. The "value added" stuff, I would be totally for it "costing" points to use, even in -exchange- for regular karma points...
So for this existing list:
1 karma desert elf
2 karma water and stone elementalist
3 karma half giant
4 karma wind and fire elementalist
5 karma lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma void elementalist
7 karma mul
8 karma psi and sorcerer
If you have earned 4 karma, and you want to play a krathi, then you have earned that privilege. You shouldn't have to give that privilege up just because you chose to enjoy it. Not for a month, not for two months, not at all. The time limit should be based on whether or not there's already enough saturation of krathis in the game, just like it is, and has been. If there are enough krathis in the game, there are enough krathis in the game, and so no, you can't play a krathi this month, even though you have the karma to play it. But if the last gemmed krathi bit the dust and there's an opening, you shouldn't have to wait 2 months to play one, nor should you have to special app one, if you already have the karma to play one. Either I earned these points, or I didn't.
I think your all missing the point as to why these changes are being put in place.
The higher the Karma role, the more rare it's supposed to be, in terms of Gickerology anyway.
While yes, you have enough Karma to play that Gicker you so badly desire, you don't have enough CGP to put in for one, you can't be arsed to spend a special app attempt on asking for those CGP's back because you spent them on boosting your warriors kick until he could kick a 'Met into touch, tough tits, wait a while, play something that doesn't require you spending CGP's or won't lower your CGP's past where they already are.
You chose to boost your warrior, knowing you only had enough CGP's to make a standard Krathi, but hoped he'd last long enough to regen those points so that when you ran him off the shield wall in a burning argosy pissed out his skull on flame and having an orgy with the gith, you could roll up that sweet sweet firey goodness. He didn't last that long, and now you can't play that Krathi, YOU made the choice to boost, YOU knew what would happen if you died, and decided that it was worth the risk. Live with the consequences.
If your bitching about how you won't be able to roll gicker after gicker after gicker, In my opinion, you shouldn't be allowed to anyway. These abilities are supposed to be RARE, like, winning the lottery rare, and as more experienced players, yes, being able to kick the shit out of a HG with a well placed fireball is fun, maybe, just maybe, those noobs you like torching and removing the boots from, still smoking, could use your wisdom as that slightly more experienced, grizzled ranger, or the knowledgeable merchant, hell who knows, you might remember why you chose to play this game to start.
I know the first thing I thought after reading the blog, GDB, and help files wasn't 'Damn, gotta get me karma to play a finger-wiggler!' It was probably somewhere along the lines of 'Heh, easy as pi....shit.' Hell, I have enough Karma now to play with Gickers, yet I still find myself rolling up more Rangers than anything else, why? Because that, for me, was the mundane guild that got me into this game, and made me fall in love with the sands, the blood, the murder, and you reprobates.
;)
If you want to make changes to the system, at least wait to see how it works out first. As far as I've read, I think it's a pretty fair system, and is more liable to balance it out. Hell, maybe even create more conflict in game what with if there's more mundanes, there may actually be enough of them to have a decent scrap?
Hell, everybody, roll up a warrior/ranger/assassin and join a city malita, lets have a damn war!
As far as the magicker after magicker thing. I think if someone wants to make water/stone/wind/fire/shadow/lightning over and over again, they should be able to. There does exist a large part of one of the major cities in the game devoted to these. They are not as rare as all that. For nilazi,muls, sorcs, and psions I agree they should be rarer. So, excluding magicker hate, I can see why people that like to play elementalists would be a little put off by this. The ones that can be gemmed are far more abundant, and should be, than the others.
I don't play them that often myself but I have enjoyed a couple of the ones I've tried. When people express their hate and how much they are for anything that prevents others from playing magickers all the time if they so choose, it makes me want to make more of them just to spite them.
Water and stone elementalists won't eat CGP to make, if I understand things right. Anything under 3 karma will be selectable.
And you will always have 1 CGP... or something. Uh, I'm a little confused, too, but I think the finalized documentation will clear things up.
I'm not whining about what I can and cannot do with regards to karma; I can't play any of the advanced karma classes without a special application as it is. None of it applies to me -personally.- However it might, at some point in the future. And it applies to everyone who has enough karma, who have -proven themselves already- to be responsible to play these roles. As I've said, as the staff has said...
if the staff thinks you have played too many of "x" they will ask you to stop doing it for awhile. They ALREADY do this.
Furthermore, if you have enough karma with the new system, which would be a total of what - 13 points? You could effectively play mage after mage after mage, never playing anything else, ANYWAY. The people who play high karma classes on a regular basis, already know how to "work the system" to keep their characters alive long enough to earn back every single point of the karma they have to spend. However, they aren't -required- to do that currently. They don't have to sacrifice a thing, because they have EARNED what they have. This system is telling them that they'll have to sacrifice it - and worse - if their 8-karma character gets PKed by a noob after a day's play they would have to special app an equal replacement, OR play mundanes for the next 5 months until they regen that karma back again. Even though they -earned- that karma. And that's not just sorcs, it's muls..which isn't magick at all and is VERY difficult to play, and has a very high turnover rate. Anyone who has -earned- the karma required to play a mul, should be allowed to play a mul every single time they create a new character. The only time they shouldn't be allowed to play one, is if the staff thinks there's already enough of them in the game, or if they feel the player has earned a "demotion" of karma through poor behavior/communication/whatever.
The only thing this does, with regards to the existing karma system, is tell people who have earned the right to play "x" karma thing, that they have to give up their karma every single time they use it, and wait for it to regen. It's a slap in the face to the people who have already earned it and who have been enjoying it, with the staff's blessings, up to this point.
Yeah, in regards to muls I think the karma scale should be swapped around a little.
Should be like this I think:
1 karma desert elf
2 karma water and stone elementalist
3 karma half giant
4 karma wind and fire elementalist
5 karma lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma mul
7 karma void elementalist
8 karma psi and sorcerer
I know there are some difficulties to playing muls but degree of difficulty and power when comparing them to void elementalists I think they should be a tad lower on the karma scale.
I'm just thinking.
I make a human krathi.
I die in 2 days, or in a week.
If I have 4 karma, how much longer do I have to wait till I can play one again? Or a whiran?
Do I have to wait 3 months before I can try a whiran?
What if I go through a character a week? That means I'll have to go through almost 12 other characters before I can try this cool character concept I have in mind...
Quote from: mansa on September 15, 2011, 08:05:55 PM
I'm just thinking.
I make a human krathi.
I die in 2 days, or in a week.
If I have 4 karma, how much longer do I have to wait till I can play one again? Or a whiran?
Do I have to wait 3 months before I can try a whiran?
What if I go through a character a week? That means I'll have to go through almost 12 other characters before I can try this cool character concept I have in mind...
Something like that, Unless you use one of the 12 spec apps you get a year to do it. My last spec app had a turnover of 4 days. To bad though I wanted to play a smurf.
I think part of the idea is to cut down on special apps not create more of them, isn't it?
Quote from: Bacon on September 15, 2011, 08:04:19 PM
Yeah, in regards to muls I think the karma scale should be swapped around a little.
Should be like this I think:
1 karma desert elf
2 karma water and stone elementalist
3 karma half giant
4 karma wind and fire elementalist
5 karma lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma mul
7 karma void elementalist
8 karma psi and sorcerer
I know there are some difficulties to playing muls but degree of difficulty and power when comparing them to void elementalists I think they should be a tad lower on the karma scale.
So that means, if you have enough karma to play a mul, and want to play a mul, and get approved to play a mul, play one, and lose one to one of the kajillions of mul-hating PCs in the world, you aren't allowed to play a krathi for another month unless you special app it. This makes sense, how, exactly? And benefits the players in what way, again?
Quote from: mansa on September 15, 2011, 08:05:55 PM
I'm just thinking.
I make a human krathi.
I die in 2 days, or in a week.
If I have 4 karma, how much longer do I have to wait till I can play one again? Or a whiran?
Do I have to wait 3 months before I can try a whiran?
What if I go through a character a week? That means I'll have to go through almost 12 other characters before I can try this cool character concept I have in mind...
This was answered, I think. If you choose a higher-end karma guild, your chargen points don't drop below three. At least, that's the impression I got.
I also want to pipe up again as one of those serial karma-class players that honestly looks forward to these changes. I tend to think that a slightly faster point-regen would be nice, but honestly I just want to see it in game as soon as possible to see how it works out.
From what I can see, karma will still be the metric of staff trust. It's not like they suddenly wouldn't trust me to play a Drovian just because my chargen points are lower than 5. It's just a system to give players more options while paring down the population of high-karma guilds.
I will say that I have a minor concern about karma review, though. It would suck to possibly lose some karma because I'm not logged in nearly as much these days, despite the fact that I'm the same player I was back when I earned my karma. But I think that might just be paranoia speaking. :D
Change and progress is always good.
However. This is a lazy system. The karma system always has been.
The rate of which Karma is awarded and then used in is silly. Trust and the value of your character and playstyle can change much swifter than what admins can and will modify your karma level.
I would think we just need applications for everything, no karma point system. Write an app, have a larger pool of staff assigned to the different karma-levels and have them monitor the subsequent approved ones and so on. Like our special app system now, just larger, more function and more reporting and exchange between player and admin. It would at least give people the illusion of choice, it would also keep people modest in their scope. Icarus effect.
I somehow always feel that when you start to automate and restrict the role-selecting like this, is the day when you feel you can not really trust the players of your game.
Are we increasing in playerbase all of a sudden? Or? I still suspect the admins would be able to handle applications from all of us.. Since we still send them in every freaking time. Why not just let us send in apps for whatever we wish to play and judge us on the spot that day, that moment? Why is it that earning trust has to be something that conforms to such a rigid set of rules? Come on people, we've been playing this game for fucking years at a time. So many playdays, so many years logged. And you're telling me to wank off because you've not spotted me to be trustworthy enough? Shit. Begone karma-system!
VIVE LA REVOLUTION!
Voular out.
Staff are still working out the regen rate, so I think it's not safe to assume that we're going to be waiting a month per point just yet.
Quote from: Lizzieif the staff thinks you have played too many of "x" they will ask you to stop doing it for awhile. They ALREADY do this.
That's true. But they have to notice, and then they have to hope you'll listen to them without them taking away the option. This new system is more hands-free in that regard.
QuoteThis system is telling them that they'll have to sacrifice it - and worse - if their 8-karma character gets PKed by a noob after a day's play they would have to special app an equal replacement, OR play mundanes for the next 5 months until they regen that karma back again.
Well, no, not necessarily. The system is apparently fluid enough for staff to consider putting in a grace period if something goes wrong. How long it will be is anyone's guess at the moment.
QuoteIt's a slap in the face to the people who have already earned it and who have been enjoying it, with the staff's blessings, up to this point.
As someone who has earned and enjoyed karma, I have to say it doesn't feel like a slap in the face at all.
Sure, you're spending these points for cool roles, which I'd really like to play and even have some written concepts for. But the benefits to that single drawback are potentially huge. I believe this will lead to players taking risks in moderation, leading to intriguing PCs. PCs that aren't necessarily out of the norm due to their accrued wealth or skill (though they might be), but due to uncoded things like longevity and clout. This will lead to fuller storytelling and roleplay, which I believe we're all here for. And although we might not be able to play magickers and muls anytime we want, we'll be able to play them enough that when we do get a chance to, it will be a fresh and interesting experience.
That's just my opinion, though. How the game changes due to all this remains to be seen.
My only real concern is the regeneration rate of these points. I think a month might be a bit too harsh, but I'm willing to work through it and let staff tweak it if they decide to roll it out with 1 point/month.
Quote from: Zoltan on September 15, 2011, 08:22:08 PM
I will say that I have a minor concern about karma review, though. It would suck to possibly lose some karma because I'm not logged in nearly as much these days, despite the fact that I'm the same player I was back when I earned my karma. But I think that might just be paranoia speaking. :D
That's my concern too, so my solution is that I'm not going to ask for a review! 8)
Quote from: shadeoux on September 15, 2011, 08:07:29 PM
Something like that, Unless you use one of the 12 spec apps you get a year to do it.
I was about to "correct" you, but you're actually right. Holy chalton, that's a lot of special apps. I thought we were allowed two a year or somesuch.
Change is scary.
This however seems more transparent, and a transition to make karma more defined and dimensional as it's always been poorly implemented, being a combination of a trust tool and race/class limiter.
It sounds like it streamlines work some for staff and clarifies some criterion, which is good based on staff turnover and the human nature of the game.
There's been some good feedback, constructive, helping shift and shape the stated change. These will likely have some impact and make it better.
Then there's the rock throwing, neagtive language, my strategy is better, or significant changes that as everyone knows will unlikely to be taken into account or change anything.
Self-defeating, so that in the end, one can act defiant, injured, ignored, marginalized and build on that ever growing chip on the shoulder.
Most of the folks who post on the gdb are intelligent and well spoken (written). One can easily tell the postive from the negative by their posting style and the language/words they use. Those that want to be positive contributors and see their input have a opportunity to make a difference, they adjust their approach, and the others don't.
Over the years one learns to read the gdb, pay attention to the constructive positive folks, and just smile and nod at the negative/nay sayers.
All my non-mundane high-karma PCs have been pretty shitty, so I'm just looking forward to using the points for skill-bumps and snazzy subguilds and whatnot.
It will definitely be nice to have combat or semi-combat PCs who can also create mastercraft items that aren't merely food recipes.
Quote from: Voular on September 15, 2011, 09:06:37 PM
The main problem with taking away the karma system entirely is that you're left with a situation where staff are too subjective. One staff member might approve your sorcerer, while another might feel you don't have enough experience yet. With the karma scale, at least everyone has agreed upon where you are already. It's a fairer system, overall.
The other problem is that karma also exists for the player to know how much he or she is trusted, on a standard scale. Without karma, players would have a vague idea at best how "good" they are as players.
A couple people posted about karma review... actually, I believe account notes currently carry with them the possibility that your karma would decrease. So if you were brave enough to get account notes before, you should still be brave enough to get them after the changes go into place. :)
Quote from: shadeoux on September 15, 2011, 08:07:29 PM
Something like that, Unless you use one of the 12 spec apps you get a year to do it.
I was about to "correct" you, but you're actually right. Holy chalton, that's a lot of special apps. I thought we were allowed two a year or somesuch.
[/quote]
We are presently allowed more special apps than we could use in a year - even if we instantly suicided every PC after it was approved - given the current long turn-around on special applications. The cap's kind of a moot point.
You get 3 special apps per year. The "monthly" thing is that you can space the three no sooner than 1 month apart, each.
So - you can special app, get denied, and wait 30 days to special app again. Get that one approved, that one dies in a week, and you have to wait 30 days from the date you apped that one, before you can app a third. And then, you can't app another one for another 9 months, because you will have used up your 3 per year allotment.
On the other hand, they don't normally address special apps that often so it would end up being more like 1 every 4 months, simply because it takes that long to get approved or denied.
Also, a denial counts as one of the 3 you're allowed. So if it gets denied, you only get 2 more apps that year. I believe this was a pretty thick bone of contention when they implemented this change. I have only submitted one special app since I started playing this game, and it was denied, so I've never actually played a special app character.
However, I probably will start submitting them once this karma thing is implemented. Why waste karma on a character concept when I can special app it instead? It'd take less time to get an answer back from a special app, than it would take to regen karma. So I could tag-team it. Spend karma on a character, then special app the next one. By the time I go through both of those characters, I'll probably have enough karma to do another of the first idea's guild/race again. And the next one would get special apped - and the next one I'd use karma.
It's convoluted, but no more than the whole system itself. But it will mean -more- special apps for the staff, not fewer. It will just make special apps more useful and more attractive.
Quote from: Cutthroat on September 15, 2011, 09:31:13 PM
Quote from: Voular on September 15, 2011, 09:06:37 PM
The main problem with taking away the karma system entirely is that you're left with a situation where staff are too subjective. One staff member might approve your sorcerer, while another might feel you don't have enough experience yet. With the karma scale, at least everyone has agreed upon where you are already. It's a fairer system, overall.
The other problem is that karma also exists for the player to know how much he or she is trusted, on a standard scale. Without karma, players would have a vague idea at best how "good" they are as players.
A couple people posted about karma review... actually, I believe account notes currently carry with them the possibility that your karma would decrease. So if you were brave enough to get account notes before, you should still be brave enough to get them after the changes go into place. :)
One staffer can give you all of your 8 karma. Or two. Or which ever are subjected to like you.
I bet you money, hard money, that alot of staffer won't go through the trouble grow a pair and go against the grain of some senior staffer over an issue such a singular's players karma level.
Quote from: Zoltan on September 15, 2011, 08:22:08 PM
I will say that I have a minor concern about karma review, though. It would suck to possibly lose some karma because I'm not logged in nearly as much these days, despite the fact that I'm the same player I was back when I earned my karma. But I think that might just be paranoia speaking. :D
Not logging in as much won't lose you any Karma, the longevity karma point is pretty much automatic if you've played a year at least with no bad notes.
Quote from: Bacon on September 15, 2011, 07:52:21 PM
As far as the magicker after magicker thing. I think if someone wants to make water/stone/wind/fire/shadow/lightning over and over again, they should be able to. There does exist a large part of one of the major cities in the game devoted to these. They are not as rare as all that. For nilazi,muls, sorcs, and psions I agree they should be rarer. So, excluding magicker hate, I can see why people that like to play elementalists would be a little put off by this. The ones that can be gemmed are far more abundant, and should be, than the others.
I don't play them that often myself but I have enjoyed a couple of the ones I've tried. When people express their hate and how much they are for anything that prevents others from playing magickers all the time if they so choose, it makes me want to make more of them just to spite them.
I disagree, and despite weather you choose to go make magicker after magicker just to spite me, I'll continue to do so.
Lets say I choose to play 6 krathi's in a row, and I'm rolling up no 7 because I like Krathi's and I've
earned the right to play them as much as I damn well please, it gets accepted, I get in game, set him up, and start kicking ass.
Now lets say Mansa has just got enough Karma to play his first Krathi, and would love to do so. He rolls him up, apps him, and gets denied due to the fact there's too many running around already, and I just took the last free spot.
Why should Mansa have to wait for my 7th Krathi to die? I just played a straight 6 of them, sure, I can move plot, kick ass, get that templar in my pocket, and have mud-sexx with that whiran while flying over Nak. But I'm doing it for the 7th time, sure, different people, different place, different life goals, but it's pretty much the ssdd scenario. For Mansa and his new, original Krathi, it wouldn't have been, but he can't play it right now, 'cus I can make this douche live for ever. Sorry Mansa, you have to chill on the back burner.
Also, a thought just struck me (yes, it hurt) the higher the Karma of the role, the more staff have to watch and monitor you, just because my last 6 Krathi's didn't decide to go rampaging through tuluk riding a 'Met and tossing pillars of fire on every silk-clad merchant he see's, dosen't mean I won't get bored and do it with this one.
Now, not only does Mansa NOT get to play with his burning desire to play a Krathi (see what I did there? ;D) but because he chose to play a regular joe indie ranger, he also gets overlooked when his ranger does something that little bit spectacular that would have given him another thumbs up, because staff were too busy monitoring me and my fireball flinging self.
Now under the new system, not only can I not hog a space in that group like I've been doing for the past 6 months, but Mansa gets to play with his Krathi, and staff don't have to bother constantly monitoring me because I'm a higher karma role than him. Spread that across the board, and after a while, it makes sense.
Not only do I stop hogging all those spots you so love, staff don't have to sit there and watch me all the time, because I
can't hog that spot, or their attention, for at least another two months. And hell, in that time, Mansa's Krathi not only did epicly well, and got him another point of Karma, it also moved along plot that changed the game a little. And to top it off, died! So I can happily play my fireball tossing pyromaniac self into the ground again until he dies, by which time, if I've played him right, I should be able to app for another anyway.
I think if you actually thought about how this system will work, and how it affects the playerbase as a whole, it might not be such a sore point. Yes, you've earned the right to play that high karma guild, but if you can't keep one alive for very long, why should you be able to re-roll another, then another, then another?
Your complaining because your afraid that if you spend your CGP on a guild choice you want to play, and get killed before your CGP has a chance to regen, you wont be able to play another straight after? So what? I've had special apps that died after two hours of playing, yhea, I was pissed, I didn't however, demand a change to the special app system because I earned the right to play that special app, and demand another.
If you want to play a HG Nilazi after you play your current HG Nilazi, you better be able to keep your HG Nilazi's alive at least 3 months.
Which, by the time you have the karma to do so, you should be able to do without too much difficulty.
Quote from: Voular on September 15, 2011, 09:39:39 PM
Quote from: Cutthroat on September 15, 2011, 09:31:13 PM
Quote from: Voular on September 15, 2011, 09:06:37 PM
The main problem with taking away the karma system entirely is that you're left with a situation where staff are too subjective. One staff member might approve your sorcerer, while another might feel you don't have enough experience yet. With the karma scale, at least everyone has agreed upon where you are already. It's a fairer system, overall.
The other problem is that karma also exists for the player to know how much he or she is trusted, on a standard scale. Without karma, players would have a vague idea at best how "good" they are as players.
A couple people posted about karma review... actually, I believe account notes currently carry with them the possibility that your karma would decrease. So if you were brave enough to get account notes before, you should still be brave enough to get them after the changes go into place. :)
One staffer can give you all of your 8 karma. Or two. Or which ever are subjected to like you.
I bet you money, hard money, that alot of staffer won't go through the trouble grow a pair and go against the grain of some senior staffer over an issue such a singular's players karma level.
Are you trolling?
I would bet soft, pretend money that if one and only one staffer were to plunk all the karma a player has into their account, there may be some discussion about it. And it doesn't take "a pair" to "go against the grain". If I were on staff and questioned something like that, I'd talk with the staffer in question, a producer, or maybe even make a related topic on the IDB. It's not a big deal to ask someone for some objectivity.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 15, 2011, 09:36:12 PM
You get 3 special apps per year. The "monthly" thing is that you can space the three no sooner than 1 month apart, each.
So - you can special app, get denied, and wait 30 days to special app again. Get that one approved, that one dies in a week, and you have to wait 30 days from the date you apped that one, before you can app a third. And then, you can't app another one for another 9 months, because you will have used up your 3 per year allotment.
On the other hand, they don't normally address special apps that often so it would end up being more like 1 every 4 months, simply because it takes that long to get approved or denied.
Also, a denial counts as one of the 3 you're allowed. So if it gets denied, you only get 2 more apps that year. I believe this was a pretty thick bone of contention when they implemented this change. I have only submitted one special app since I started playing this game, and it was denied, so I've never actually played a special app character.
However, I probably will start submitting them once this karma thing is implemented. Why waste karma on a character concept when I can special app it instead? It'd take less time to get an answer back from a special app, than it would take to regen karma. So I could tag-team it. Spend karma on a character, then special app the next one. By the time I go through both of those characters, I'll probably have enough karma to do another of the first idea's guild/race again. And the next one would get special apped - and the next one I'd use karma.
It's convoluted, but no more than the whole system itself. But it will mean -more- special apps for the staff, not fewer. It will just make special apps more useful and more attractive.
The wait period makes this unappealing if your PC dies before your special app is approved, and I suspect staff will easily catch on to the special app process being used frivolously. (Which I recall was one of the reasons the maximum number of special apps per year was adjusted in the first place.)
Voular, the issue of staff corruption's been addressed in another thread that derailed from this one, but basically, I don't see that as something that would actually happen. Staff really do seem to check each other, even if many players have been skeptical about that.
Quote from: Zoltan on September 15, 2011, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: Voular on September 15, 2011, 09:39:39 PM
Quote from: Cutthroat on September 15, 2011, 09:31:13 PM
Quote from: Voular on September 15, 2011, 09:06:37 PM
The main problem with taking away the karma system entirely is that you're left with a situation where staff are too subjective. One staff member might approve your sorcerer, while another might feel you don't have enough experience yet. With the karma scale, at least everyone has agreed upon where you are already. It's a fairer system, overall.
The other problem is that karma also exists for the player to know how much he or she is trusted, on a standard scale. Without karma, players would have a vague idea at best how "good" they are as players.
A couple people posted about karma review... actually, I believe account notes currently carry with them the possibility that your karma would decrease. So if you were brave enough to get account notes before, you should still be brave enough to get them after the changes go into place. :)
One staffer can give you all of your 8 karma. Or two. Or which ever are subjected to like you.
I bet you money, hard money, that alot of staffer won't go through the trouble grow a pair and go against the grain of some senior staffer over an issue such a singular's players karma level.
Are you trolling?
I would bet soft, pretend money that if one and only one staffer were to plunk all the karma a player has into their account, there may be some discussion about it. And it doesn't take "a pair" to "go against the grain". If I were on staff and questioned something like that, I'd talk with the staffer in question, a producer, or maybe even make a related topic on the IDB. It's not a big deal to ask someone for some objectivity.
No. I am simply pointing out the fact that the karma system is as much flawed from the inside as it is to us. It makes no god damn sense, it's an illusion of choice. We have no idea if we're all given karma at a relative pace, or karma for the same things. Since we can hardly compare, nor are we notified by staffers (usually?). My opinion is that it would be easier to do away with it. The counter-argument is that the karma system lets staffers know who they can trust and who they can't. And I do not believe we have such a huge playerbase that the ones who can't be trusted with certain roles can't be identified easily. The account notes themselves should be good enough for that, and the karma points should be turned into informative and lengthy bulletins on your account notes. So when we put in applications, the staffers can look them over - discuss if needed - then approve. I would rather wait a week on my sorc, than to play 12 years to accumulate enough karma.
Quote from: Cutthroat on September 15, 2011, 09:31:13 PM
A couple people posted about karma review... actually, I believe account notes currently carry with them the possibility that your karma would decrease. So if you were brave enough to get account notes before, you should still be brave enough to get them after the changes go into place. :)
Well the thing is, we don't necessarily know what we were awarded our karma for, or more accurately what categories each point falls under. And staff warned that if our existing karma doesn't fit into the category limitations, it could be wiped as excess.
So I'd rather not take the risk..
I'm totally going to be out of karma now!
I think a month to regen a karma point is too slow. Two weeks is a better timeframe.
But, if staff can regen karma faster manually (like for good roleplay or whatever) then I'm good with that. So instead of putting someone to 8 karma they could raise someone at 2/6 to 3/6.
As to how karma is granted I wouldn't speculate on that. That's an issue for staff and it has its own checks and balances. This new system is meant to be an improvement on the current system and I support the staff on their efforts to make the system more dynamic.
It was good while it lasted.
Thanks for the constructive feedback. We've taken some things in to account and have already made some changes to the wording of a category heading and some of the criteria.
We're still discussing the karma regen rate and some kind of appeal system/grace period. These things seem important to players and we agree they could do with some looking at.
When we have the system ready to go we'll link you to a karma webpage that will outline the system and how it works in full. Expect to hear more on the subject of subguilds in the next couple of weeks, once the helpfiles are finalised.
Locking this thread now.