Armageddon General Discussion Board

I never really understood why elves consider it such a shame to ride, but it is as it is. Anyhow, I've got a question:

Under what circumstance would an elf ride ?

Would he...
... climb on a mount after losing a leg in the desert to a beast, using the mount to reach cizilisation to stay alife ?
... after he lost both legs ?
... to save her/his child which is starving in the desert, at a place further away he knows he could run, but in range of a mount ?
... if a superior orders her/him to ?
... if a superior orders her/him to with the choice "ride or die" ?
... if he/she would get 100 / 1000 / 10000 / 100000000 sids for doing so ?
... as a demonstration of willpower ?
... for losing a bet ?

questions after questions ... I'm sure lots of you will have proper answers

Would he...
... climb on a mount after losing a leg in the desert to a beast, using the mount to reach cizilisation to stay alife ? -He'd crawl or die.
... after he lost both legs ? -Crawl.
... to save her/his child which is starving in the desert, at a place further away he knows he could run, but in range of a mount ? -Only a non-elf can't outrun a mount on foot. So no.
... if a superior orders her/him to ? -He'd tell him to fuck off. Have them killed.
... if a superior orders her/him to with the choice "ride or die" ? -He'd run away.
... if he/she would get 100 / 1000 / 10000 / 100000000 sids for doing so ? -His pride is worth more than those 'sids, but if you've really got them...let's see them first. Then steals them.
... as a demonstration of willpower ? -Got nothing to prove. Not going to degrade themselves in such a way.
... for losing a bet ? -Wouldn't honor the bet. Find a way to cheat. Still not going to ride.

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:10:13 AM
... to save her/his child which is starving in the desert, at a place further away he knows he could run, but in range of a mount ? -Only a non-elf can't outrun a mount on foot. So no.

That's -soooooooooo- _completely_ NOT true.
Go play a city elf and try to move outsides in the wilds. It's -ridiculous-.

That's what elves believe though. Only a weakling shortleg would need anything other than their own legs for transportation. I'm not saying that it's codedly true (although in the case of d-elves it is).

What about if their legs are both cut off and to save their starving child?  :P

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:10:13 AM
... climb on a mount after losing a leg in the desert to a beast, using the mount to reach cizilisation to stay alife ? -He'd crawl or die.

Seriously ? He'd rather die than take the mount to get to savety ?

(The situation would be: He lost his leg, and there are hordes of enemies showing at the horizon already, so crawling is not an option, but would lead to certain death.)

I believe the staff have stated: Elves do not, and will not ride for -ANY- reason whatsoever. As in, there is no justification for an elf to ride a mount or in/on a vehicle of any kind -EVER-.

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:18:33 AM
That's what elves believe though. Only a weakling shortleg would need anything other than their own legs for transportation. I'm not saying that it's codedly true (although in the case of d-elves it is).

This can't be true either. Elves, (especially city elves) will have found out by simple try-and-error that if they try to move with any group of riders, they'll suck and can't keep up even closely to any mount. They -would- know that they can't keep up with mounts, no matter how hard they try.

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:20:18 AM
I believe the staff have stated: Elves do not, and will not ride for -ANY- reason whatsoever. As in, there is no justification for an elf to ride a mount or in/on a vehicle of any kind -EVER-.

At least willingly. If you knock them out or kill them I imagine this can be circumvented.

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:20:18 AM
I believe the staff have stated: Elves do not, and will not ride for -ANY- reason whatsoever. As in, there is no justification for an elf to ride a mount or in/on a vehicle of any kind -EVER-.

This is correct. Staff said it is like this. I'm considering the situation from an IC point of view though.

Quote from: theebie on April 21, 2011, 11:21:48 AM

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:18:33 AM
That's what elves believe though. Only a weakling shortleg would need anything other than their own legs for transportation. I'm not saying that it's codedly true (although in the case of d-elves it is).

This can't be true either. Elves, (especially city elves) will have found out by simple try-and-error that if they try to move with any group of riders, they'll suck and can't keep up even closely to any mount. They -would- know that they can't keep up with mounts, no matter how hard they try.

Except that city elves typically don't leave the cities to go racing mounts out in the wilds. They can however outrun almost anything -in- cities.

Quote from: theebie on April 21, 2011, 11:24:01 AM

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:20:18 AM
I believe the staff have stated: Elves do not, and will not ride for -ANY- reason whatsoever. As in, there is no justification for an elf to ride a mount or in/on a vehicle of any kind -EVER-.

This is correct. Staff said it is like this. I'm considering the situation from an IC point of view though.

ICly, elves DO NOT ride. You're looking for IC justification for them to ride. There is none.

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:25:04 AM

Except that city elves typically don't leave the cities to go racing mounts out in the wilds. They can however outrun almost anything -in- cities.

This may be true.
Now take a city-elf joining the Byn. He'll be within cities and outsides frequently.
He might even get in situations like "has to be at point x within y hours, or friends will die".

Then they'll die if he can't get there on foot.

Quote from: jhunter on April 21, 2011, 11:26:04 AM
ICly, elves DO NOT ride. You're looking for IC justification for them to ride. There is none.

Well, proving this true or false was the initial idea of this whole thread.

I'm not saying that humans will never ever drink raw sewage; I'm saying that it's repugnant to them and they can't understand the value of doing so even when it's clearly presented.

The possibility of an elf riding just doesn't come to their thoughts. So, even if there's a mount standing right beside them, and they're facing eminent death, it wouldn't even be a temptation for an elf to consider riding it.

It's like you were raised on an island your whole life with an airplane. You use it as a home, a place to store things, and so on, and even see other airplanes flying in the sky above you, but you don't make the connection that -you- can ride the airplane to get away because you don't know how to and can't trust a very heavy piece of metal to fly.

Quote from: Semper on April 21, 2011, 11:48:29 AM
The possibility of an elf riding just doesn't come to their thoughts. So, even if there's a mount standing right beside them, and they're facing eminent death, it wouldn't even be a temptation for an elf to consider riding it.

It's like you were raised on an island your whole life with an airplane. You use it as a home, a place to store things, and so on, and even see other airplanes flying in the sky above you, but you don't make the connection that -you- can ride the airplane to get away because you don't know how to and can't trust a very heavy piece of metal to fly.

this is not the point. an elf does know that a mount is used to sit upon, and that it carries a person from point-a to point-b (and they do use them occasionally to transport heavy things, don't they ? (by leading them, not riding them)).
so an elf -will- know that if he climbs on that beast, and rides on it, he will save his/her beloved tribemates from certain death.
the question is, wouldn't that be more valuable to said elf, than the shame of riding ?

Quote from: theebie on April 21, 2011, 12:07:33 PM

Quote from: Semper on April 21, 2011, 11:48:29 AM
The possibility of an elf riding just doesn't come to their thoughts. So, even if there's a mount standing right beside them, and they're facing eminent death, it wouldn't even be a temptation for an elf to consider riding it.

It's like you were raised on an island your whole life with an airplane. You use it as a home, a place to store things, and so on, and even see other airplanes flying in the sky above you, but you don't make the connection that -you- can ride the airplane to get away because you don't know how to and can't trust a very heavy piece of metal to fly.

this is not the point. an elf does know that a mount is used to sit upon, and that it carries a person from point-a to point-b (and they do use them occasionally to transport heavy things, don't they ? (by leading them, not riding them)).
so an elf -will- know that if he climbs on that beast, and rides on it, he will save his/her beloved tribemates from certain death.
the question is, wouldn't that be more valuable to said elf, than the shame of riding ?

They don't make that connection. That's the point. They know other races use it, but riding mounts is not something they apply to themselves. Elves are different from humans in the way they think. The documentation has plenty of evidence supporting this.

There's plenty of old threads about this.

Trying to find an excuse to deliberately circumvent elf docs is probably going to end badly for you.

Besides, a tribe that only survived because one of its members rode a mount might be saved in the short-term, yes, but would most likely die of shame over the next few days. They would just wilt away like a neglected plant.

It's in the documentation, guys.

QuoteTo rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Now, this isn't a biological certainty - but rather a social standard that has been very deeply ingrained in all elves. So it is conceivable that if riding a mount would save an elf's life, that he would do it. But this act would be the most shameful thing that could be committed. Never again could such an elf have the respect of their tribemates. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

So, basically, an elf might as well be dead if he were to ride a mount. He would be so ashamed of himself that he might as well cut off his legs and such.

It's an elven thing in that one thing that they're good at.. that they're better than any other race in the world is running. If an elf were to ride a mount, they're completely worthless. An elf could never respect himself if he ever rode a creature.

If an elf were bet to ride or something, they'd simply refuse to do it, even if they had to pay it. If they were offered money, they'd take the money and run, or simply refuse the money. If a superior orders them (and this has happened many times), they've always refused, even to the point where they'd quit the job if it were a necessity.

Yeah, so shameful that they would likely be outcast from their tribe which for most tribal people, is a fate worse than death.

If you can't let your self understand the mind set of an elf, then don't play one. What you as a real world human call -untrue- is merely you keeping a limited view point. For elves, pride is a fault, identify that point, embrace it, rub it, stroke it taking it under a blanket and whisper sweat somethings to it, what ever or however you do it know that you, as an elf,  have more pride in a deeply ingrained way of life. Even if far removed from any tribe, this one point your wish to argue is a mark of what makes you an elf.

You will not ride.

Your child wouldn't ride.

If someone proposes through context, bet or order to ride then they are insulting you, tour tribe, your race. They are saying that you are less that what you re and not worth the legs you stand on, the blood in your veins or the pointed ears on your head.

If you can't keep up with moving mounts, well be smart enough to catch up, or simply figure it out. There are ways.

Again if you can't handle what is set forth for a race, restrictions and or ways of behavior then don't play them. there are half elves for you to enjoy who do ride.

I only say it this way because of the countless other conversations on this topic in other threads. Read through them and perhaps you would understand even more.

Under what circumstance would an elf ride ?

Would he...
... climb on a mount after losing a leg in the desert to a beast, using the mount to reach cizilisation to stay alife ? I doubt this would cross the elf's mind.
... after he lost both legs ? Likewise
... to save her/his child which is starving in the desert, at a place further away he knows he could run, but in range of a mount ? Using a mount for something like this simply isn't an option for an elf.
... if a superior orders her/him to ? No one orders an elf around unless they're happy with it. It's one of the reasons they make useless slaves. If it was a tribemate/trusted person, they would cease to be from this point on.
... if a superior orders her/him to with the choice "ride or die" ? Similar to above. Elves don't take orders like this.
... if he/she would get 100 / 1000 / 10000 / 100000000 sids for doing so ? Pride is the most valuable thing to an elf.
... as a demonstration of willpower ? Not riding is the demonstration of willpower.
... for losing a bet ? There wouldn't be a single moment where the elf would consider honouring such a bet.


End of the line is, if you have OOC problems and hang ups, you shouldn't have played a city elf. It's a hardcore role if you want to travel around.

-that's not supposed to be harsh  :P What I mean is, it's very clear that elves can't/won't ride. It's like having a dwarf without a focus.

theebie, if you could save your life by drinking the blood of 30 dead infants, would you do it?

EDIT Derp thougt this was about wagons/skimmers.

Shalooonsh wrote a story about Dune Shriek, whose ankles were broken and she was tied to an erdlu and set for home. Her tribemates didn't think she was weak at all for not cutting the ropes with her teeth and crawled over miles and miles of fucking desert.

And I agree with him, elves are not -that- anal.

A big logical reason that desert elves don't ride mounts is because their own legs are more efficient. They do not need to feed, water, care for, protect, and hide a mount while they hunt or travel.

They have no qualms about using animals at pack beasts or so on.





The fact that they don't ride skimmers or wagons seems kind of shoehorned to me though.

Quote from: Marshmellow on April 21, 2011, 01:22:28 PM
theebie, if you could save your life by drinking the blood of 30 dead infants, would you do it?

I would, but I'm (sorta) human.  That means everything is possible.

Luckily this topic is about elves.

This is a pessimistic outlook:  Given the power of debate and persuasion you can argue ANYTHING is realistic, possible, feasible etc.  That goes doubly so for Armageddon.  Anything can be argued successfully.

In this case I'm sure our imaginative community could come up with thousands of exceptions to the elf riding rule that make perfect logical sense.  Broken ankles, knocked unconscious and tied to a mount/wagon, psionic persuasion.  The list goes on and on and on.

None of it matters.  The rule is -Elves do not ride-.  Thats the alpha and the omega right there.

It's a fantasy game so realism goes right out the window (not that it necessarily applies to a fantastical race).  Staff and tradition have established a game world.  It's on us to follow those rules and guidelines.  One of those rules/guidelines is elves do not ride.  Another is dwarves have focuses.  We can choose to ignore these rules, but we are doing ourselves a disservice by discarding the substance of Zalanthas and blatantly ruining other players experience by presenting an erroneous game world.

If you feel your situation is one of the extreme examples where your elf should ride, discuss it with staff.  If you're going to make a habit of it I would most definitely send in a character report/question, explain your reasonings and see what staff says.  If it's a once off situation (broken-ankle/erdlu bit) do yourself the service of wishing up and letting staff know you're an elf riding so the world can respond accordingly.  I'd also send in a character report explaining the situation.

tldr; Elf?  Don't ride.  Think you're special?  You're not.  Still want to ride?  Ask staff on a case by case basis

I think one point that is trying to be conveyed is that in the documentation it says that elves are strongly adverse to riding mounts because of their pride. Documentations are a guideline that are meant to be followed but not an answer to every situation. From the list though, I doubt the elf would consider mounting over the numerous other options, especially if you have a tribe to help you out.

Ultimately, for an elf, you would be wise to follow the guidelines. Do not hop on mounts if you like karma.

Quote from: Marshmellow on April 21, 2011, 01:22:28 PM
theebie, if you could save your life by drinking the blood of 30 dead infants, would you do it?

Well, if they're already dead ... hell yes.

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 21, 2011, 01:37:58 PM
Shalooonsh wrote a story about Dune Shriek, whose ankles were broken and she was tied to an erdlu and set for home. Her tribemates didn't think she was weak at all for not cutting the ropes with her teeth and crawled over miles and miles of fucking desert.

And I agree with him, elves are not -that- anal.

I think this is from an entirely different perspective. The elf was -forced- to do it, against her will. It's like being a rape victim. There's a whole lot of negative stigmatism from others possibly, but would probably receive a different reaction if he/she is someone you deeply care about. Still, there's different ways a tribe could react to it as well (see it as a sign of weakness and just kill her), and what is written by Shalooonsh is probably an exceptional case.

Just to make things clear, I'm fine with that elves don't ride, I don't want any of my elven characters to ride, and I know that if I'd be unhappy with the situation, I should choose another race.

That wasn't the point I wanted to make though.

Elves live for their pride and their tribe. So their tribe is worth a hell of a lot to them. So if you'd put those two things against each other

Elf doesn't want to ride because it's shameful  <-- versus --> Elf can save his tribemates if he rides on a mount

Then I see two strong points here ?

Elves, either city or desert, never ride... ever. Death, losing a job, losing a leg - all are preferable to riding.

I guess you could try really hard to make exceptional circumstances, but in the end, elves do not ride mounts for any reason at all. They're crazy that way, like dwarfs wanting to do one particular thing, like half-elves both wanting to be alone and part of something at the same time, like half-giants not being able to be geniuses.

As for saving their tribe, they'd lose their tribe in saving it since no elf would be tribe mates with some crazy rider-of-mounts elf.

I think the shame of letting a tribe mate die would be lesser than the shame of riding a mount.

Also, I can't think of one area in game where an elf would absolutely need a mount to get anywhere they couldn't already.

I think it wouldn't be, an elf could save his tribe mate by riding, but instead would, if that bonded, die along side them while trying to save them, never setting them on a mount. Think Samaria code, think that level of self sacrifice for honor. We wouldn't kill our selves in the west, but their idea of life and honor doesn't hold the same mentality.

I tend to disagree a bit, would an elf ride for sid, no, ordered, no.

To save their child, hell yes.

There isn't a damn thing in this world that I wouldn't do to save my son's life.

eat 100 dead babies to safe him, done.

That being said I think its a bit of a rp choice, would the elf even consider it as an option, probably not, but if it did...
Also, when riding to save your tribe, you pretty much must be accepting that everyone in your tribe though they will be alive will want nothing to do with you.

My two sids

You're not an elf.

What about an elf that was put into service by a sorcerer-king of a city-state, serves for a hundred years and got really old, was raised to champion of the city-state and decided he'd rather ride then run because his legs ache from time to time.  ;)

Fewvpeople will get this reference.

Guys, you made an elf full knowing the role you were getting into. Accept it and enjoy it. Don't like it, don't play an elf. Don't like being a pariah and hunted by most people in the Known? Don't be a magicker. Don't like the idea of being OCD focused on a life goal? Don't play a dwarf. Why does everyone want to try and defy documentation, when documentation is the best thing about this game?

I think it's an interesting question since it is simply an academic question, not a quest to get around the docs.

Quote from: Nyr on April 21, 2011, 08:53:07 PM
You're not an elf.

Well yes I am not, but given that in Arm life is highly valued, is see no difference with my stated opinion. I stick by it

You can stick by it all you want, you are still not an elf, so..moot at best.

Quote from: Yasbusta on April 21, 2011, 09:11:41 PM

Quote from: Nyr on April 21, 2011, 08:53:07 PM
You're not an elf.

Well yes I am not, but given that in Arm life is highly valued, is see no difference with my stated opinion. I stick by it

The point is simple, no matter the means will never justify the ends. In the mind of an elf this would apply to ridding. That is whats being said. The frustrating stance on both sides is in fact, you weigh these pondering by your real life, modern, (most likely) westernized sense abilities.

In no way do I mean this as a slight, but try and step back to approach it from the opposite side to truly understand why they would not. Its hard to do, sure, but thats what makes getting into a role difficult sometimes. Removing oneself from preconceived understandings.

There has been known cultures that would rather see their entire family dead before breaking a tradition, including as far as killing their own children. Zealots. Consider elves as a race of zealots when it comes to their beliefs.

Hard to grasp for most of us. It can be for myself. 

Probably part of the reason I don't play elves, they suck anyways, :P

Quote from: DocsTo rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Now, this isn't a biological certainty - but rather a social standard that has been very deeply ingrained in all elves. So it is conceivable that if riding a mount would save an elf's life, that he would do it. But this act would be the most shameful thing that could be committed. Never again could such an elf have the respect of their tribemates. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It states explicitly in the docs that an elf may ride in extreme circumstances.

I like to think of it as somewhat like cannibalism.  If I was lost in a desert with one other person and we were both starving to death, then I might* kill and eat them in order to survive.  I sure as hell would never tell a soul, and I'd do my best to hide the evidence.  I imaging it would also be a really fucking hard thing to live with.

If an elf had both arms and legs broken (and there just so happened to be a mount nearby) then I could see some (not all) elves draping themselves across it to reach somewhere safe.  I'm pretty damn sure they'd never tell anyone, and do their best to hide the evidence, possibly even getting off and fucking rolling the last part of the journey so as not to be caught out.  And they'd still probably be more haunted by the experience than you or I would be by having to slaughter and eat a friend.

I think that's the closest match in westernized human morals.

*I'm honestly not sure if I could.

If I ever see an elf riding, I'm sure as hell going to be reporting it. And I hope that if the elf in question doesn't have an INCREDIBLE good reason (like being a half-elf), staff will forbid them from playing an elf for a long time.

First, some humor:

Quote from: Synthesis on July 28, 2008, 03:27:33 AM
The lean, muscular elf says, in allundean:
     "What are you talking about riding?  I'm merely sitting on top of it while it's walking!

Quote from: WolfsongAn elven raider has entered the large, badass war argosy.

You shout in sirihish, "Quick, start moving! He'll jump off!"

The large, badass war argosy rumbles and shakes as it moves.

An elven raider leaves the large, badass war argosy.

Now on to the actual post.

I thought what Smuz said (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41134.msg599753.html#msg599753) was pretty spot on. He found the quote I was looking for!

Quote from: theebie on April 21, 2011, 06:03:41 PM
Elves live for their pride and their tribe. So their tribe is worth a hell of a lot to them. So if you'd put those two things against each other

Elf doesn't want to ride because it's shameful  <-- versus --> Elf can save his tribemates if he rides on a mount

Quote from: Jdr on April 21, 2011, 11:56:39 PM
If I ever see an elf riding, I'm sure as hell going to be reporting it. And I hope that if the elf in question doesn't have an INCREDIBLE good reason (like being a half-elf), staff will forbid them from playing an elf for a long time.

If I was playing an elf, I could see them riding in very, very, VERY extreme circumstances, if it somehow hinged on saving their tribe. Not all elves would. If the circumstances were such, documentation does allow for it. True, the elf would be forever shamed, but if it was for the greater good of the tribe, I think an elf might do it. I also think that it's reasonable to make that choice, and still be a good, trusted player. What would a good trusted player do with that? They'd make through thinks and feels every step of the way, wish up immediately before and during, continue to role-play out the anguish, and ultimately send a through report in to staff explaining why they did it. They would have to accept that, regardless of reason, their elf would be forever shamed. They would have to accept that, as a representation of that shame, their elf might be stored.

The possibility should never, ever, ever be taken lightly. It would also probably never happen, because the circumstances would have to be so wild and extreme, that I honestly can't imagine them. An elf would do absolutely everything to avoid it. But, the documentation says that there are extreme circumstances that can occur.

For common, everyday purposes and even most extreme purposes, an elf should never ride. If you played 200 elf PCs, you'd probably never find that extreme of a circumstances. But that doesn't mean that it can't happen.

Quote from: Jdr on April 21, 2011, 09:10:03 PM
Guys, you made an elf full knowing the role you were getting into. Accept it and enjoy it. Don't like it, don't play an elf. Don't like being a pariah and hunted by most people in the Known? Don't be a magicker. Don't like the idea of being OCD focused on a life goal? Don't play a dwarf. Why does everyone want to try and defy documentation, when documentation is the best thing about this game?

I would argue that the docs are great guidelines, at best. Though most Zalanthans would abide to these guidelines, most PC's tend to become the exception. Then again, there are some docs which are not very flexible. Like elves riding mounts. Just ain't gonna happen, Kah?

Kah.

There is no universal answer.

You are considering riding a mount with an elf on an OOC level.  Keep in mind, an elf would never consider this.  It would just NEVER occur to an elf.  The same way it would never occur to me to take a helicopter to go to work instead of a car.  The same way it would never occur to me to start speaking in Japanese because I don't know it.  An elf, and all of the elves in the history of elves were raised not to ride mounts.  It would, on a day to day basis never occur to them that they need/should have a mount.  Desperate matters are another matter, but that is a case by case basis.  I think an elf would sooner shell out a fortune to pay someone who could get to their child faster (assuming a city elf's child is out of the city for some reason) then thinking ZOMG I should get a mount.  And you won't know how to ride one anyway, even if something did happen.

Would it be possible/easy to disallow elves from riding in a coded fashion?

It's not exactly like cannibalism, it's not like baby eating. Those things are shameful to other people, but some people would be understanding. Maybe yeah, you could make an analogy about eating a friend to live, but it doesn't quite click.

Elves who ride are just sort of saying that they're worthless. People can live with the trauma of eating 100 babies, eating siblings, getting raped. Those are things that can be forgotten. But an elf who rides is worthless forever. He is no longer on the same level of any elf, more worthless than a half-elf or any other outcast. He forever becomes lower than a beast of burden, as even such beasts don't need to ride other creatures.

He has let down every other elf out there who insists that elves don't ride out of pride. And that's the worst thing an elf can do.

Quote from: Yasbusta on April 21, 2011, 10:29:59 PM
Probably part of the reason I don't play elves, they suck anyways, :P

Elves are supposed to stick to one spot only :P It's really not bad if you're not an explorer type who can stay in the cities. There often shouldn't be any reason to go out of the walls at all. If you want to play an elf that leaves the gates, play a half-elf (or one who looks like an elf).

From a gaming perspective, elves are lots of fun because they're pure social PvP... they are out to steal from everyone out there. You'll get to devise some fun, complex scams with them. They're really a lot of fun with the right mentality. Elves fail at combat or exploring, though.

Quote from: lordcooper on April 22, 2011, 03:54:29 AM
Would it be possible/easy to disallow elves from riding in a coded fashion?

I don't think they even have the ride skill. If they do, it should definitely be removed :P

Quote from: lordcooper on April 22, 2011, 03:54:29 AMWould it be possible/easy to disallow elves from riding in a coded fashion?

There are extreme cases where they should be able to ride.  They are not physically incapable, so doing a code-fix like this is fixing a bruise with amputation of the limb, if you ask me.

Quote from: Semper on April 21, 2011, 03:31:12 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 21, 2011, 01:37:58 PM
Shalooonsh wrote a story about Dune Shriek, whose ankles were broken and she was tied to an erdlu and set for home. Her tribemates didn't think she was weak at all for not cutting the ropes with her teeth and crawled over miles and miles of fucking desert.

And I agree with him, elves are not -that- anal.

I think this is from an entirely different perspective. The elf was -forced- to do it, against her will. It's like being a rape victim. There's a whole lot of negative stigmatism from others possibly, but would probably receive a different reaction if he/she is someone you deeply care about. Still, there's different ways a tribe could react to it as well (see it as a sign of weakness and just kill her), and what is written by Shalooonsh is probably an exceptional case.

I wasn't saying elves should ride, not even city elves, but to say they wouldn't put a dying/sick/disabled tribemate on a mount is, in my opinion, not getting the race. They are all about survival in the end, no matter how clingy to their traditions and pride. If pride did trump survival, we wouldn't have city elves at all.

I think your premise is wrong there. City elves have an entire city of easy prey. I doubt the majority would see their choice in lifestyle as shameful. The only reason players hate city elves is because players like to play outdoors, and city elves are absolutely pits for that kind of role (though it can be done. Shout-out to Pendeh!)

Quote from: Marshmellow on April 22, 2011, 06:07:03 AM

Quote from: lordcooper on April 22, 2011, 03:54:29 AMWould it be possible/easy to disallow elves from riding in a coded fashion?

There are extreme cases where they should be able to ride.  They are not physically incapable, so doing a code-fix like this is fixing a bruise with amputation of the limb, if you ask me.

True-- besides, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a full-blooded elf even thinking about riding anything in all my time playing, folks seem to be pretty good about following the docs Staff seem to be pretty good about keeping their collective pimp hands strong.

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 22, 2011, 07:29:24 AM
I think your premise is wrong there. City elves have an entire city of easy prey. I doubt the majority would see their choice in lifestyle as shameful. The only reason players hate city elves is because players like to play outdoors, and city elves are absolutely pits for that kind of role (though it can be done. Shout-out to Pendeh!)

No, I meant the migration and seeking refuge in the cities, a very alien and uncomfortable environment for the first generation of immigrants, shows how adaptable elves are. City is not full of easy prey when you know nothing about it.

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 22, 2011, 10:10:20 AM

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 22, 2011, 07:29:24 AM
I think your premise is wrong there. City elves have an entire city of easy prey. I doubt the majority would see their choice in lifestyle as shameful. The only reason players hate city elves is because players like to play outdoors, and city elves are absolutely pits for that kind of role (though it can be done. Shout-out to Pendeh!)

No, I meant the migration and seeking refuge in the cities, a very alien and uncomfortable environment for the first generation of immigrants, shows how adaptable elves are. City is not full of easy prey when you know nothing about it.

When was this migration you speak of?  Are not most elves pretty much where they are when the original cataclysms happened?  I'm sure some have moved, some have died out etc, but the city elves?  Southern ones have been there for Ages (literally).  The northern ones?  Probably the same.  (I don't know the ins and outs of all the tribal documentation.  There could be a blatant exception.)

Try this:  Riding a mount for an elf is like getting excommunicated from the Catholic church circa 1100 Papal states.  It's not only that your an outcast.  You're completely fucked.  No afterlife.  No respect.  No chance for work or proper employment.  Probably can't even work as a serf.  "But my children!  I must save them!"  Bollocks.  You saying you would risk their immortal soul (you're a believer mind you, 1100ad in rome), just so they can draw a few more breaths?  No way.

Hard to draw direct comparisons but for an elf it would be the same.  Not only is it a horrible, shameful act (ala raping children or cannibalism to a modern american) it pretty much ruins any chances you or your family have of ever living normally.  If you believe in any sort of spiritual stuffs you and they are probably completely screwed there.  No journey to Jihae when you die.  You're as worthless as sand and so are your kids.  
"But life is the most important!  Survival trumps all!"  I call bollocks on that.  Elves will not do anything to survive.  If they would, they'd be humans.  Survival is not the end all.

Pride is.

Taven laid it out perfectly.  We can brainstorm a thousand exceptions for when riding would be an option for an elf, but if you decide to be that exception you better play it to the hilt.  Make sure staff knows what you're doing when you do it and after it is done.  Imagine where you just killed your mother/father and f'd their corpse, then ate it.  That's the sort of horrible shit your elf is doing getting on that beetle.  Disturbed as hell to put it mildly.  Be crazy as a loon.  Nightmares and flashbacks.  Go completely nuts and never stop rping it.  You're elf will never forget.  Never get over it.  It will never fade.  Ever.  You're worse than dung and YOU know it.

All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

Oh wait, you need to save you tribe now, hmm, how about waying some one in the tribe to let them know, so much faster then ridding or running. Oh you have to deliver something back to the tribe in time, and you going to run out of juice, well shit, better planning have other runners at key point to relay the thing.

Your an elf for goodness sake, think like one.

For ever situation you come up with there is a feasible strategy that does not involve ridding. Ridding is not a sign of desperation but poor imagination, ingenuity and or laziness.

I don't see why it's so hard of a concept for people. Elves are not humans, and should not be played like one. If you don't get how they should be played, it's better if you don't play them or follow the good examples of others until you do.

The docs say there's the -possibility- of an elf riding and people go bat-shit trying to find an exception. For PC elves, it's not even a remote possibility, and shouldn't even cross their minds. The staff have said so on several occasions that even -I- have given up on it. And believe me, I've tried to figure out why/why not an elf wouldn't ride and all that. It's a waste of time to try and justify your elf to ride, and this feature wasn't intended for the race by the staff.

Riding a mount/wagon/skimmer for an elf to move from one spot to another just doesn't come to their mind. There's no further point in looking for an exception beyond this.

It probably doesn't even make sense, which is why this topic always comes up now and then. Roll with it, and wait for Arm 2 where there won't be no elves.  :P

Quote from: Potaje on April 22, 2011, 11:06:36 AM
All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Quote from: Marc on April 22, 2011, 11:01:38 AM
When was this migration you speak of?  Are not most elves pretty much where they are when the original cataclysms happened?  I'm sure some have moved, some have died out etc, but the city elves?  Southern ones have been there for Ages (literally).  The northern ones?  Probably the same.  (I don't know the ins and outs of all the tribal documentation.  There could be a blatant exception.)

The cities haven't been built around certain tribes, so they must have come from somewhere and the docs for some of them even state from where. Most of the elven docs include names of tribes that migrate, dissolve, unite into a bigger tribe or fall apart. The tribe, while still supremely important to an elf, is much less monolithic structure than people imagine.

Again, I'm not saying that elves should ride or brainstorming for the loopholes in the rule. However, to say that elves would rather leave another of their own to die than to put them on a stretcher/mount/whatever is, well, stupid. Widening the definition of what an elf would consider riding makes the whole race into a caricature.

I wholeheartedly agree that if you don't want to play your elves by the documentation, that you need to go and play something else. However, I want to point out again, the original poster has stated that he isn't asking because he wants to circumvent the racial requirements for elves, but rather explore their implications.

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 22, 2011, 11:50:42 AM

Quote from: Potaje on April 22, 2011, 11:06:36 AM
All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Quote from: Marc on April 22, 2011, 11:01:38 AM


Sure it is, your not ridding, your being dragged in a sense.

Quote from: Potaje on April 22, 2011, 11:53:15 AM

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 22, 2011, 11:50:42 AM

Quote from: Potaje on April 22, 2011, 11:06:36 AM
All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Quote from: Marc on April 22, 2011, 11:01:38 AM

Sure it is, your not ridding, your being dragged in a sense.

That's the exactly what I was talking about, making a mockery of the whole concept.

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 22, 2011, 12:00:15 PM

Quote from: Potaje on April 22, 2011, 11:53:15 AM

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 22, 2011, 11:50:42 AM

Quote from: Potaje on April 22, 2011, 11:06:36 AM
All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Quote from: Marc on April 22, 2011, 11:01:38 AM

Sure it is, your not ridding, your being dragged in a sense.

That's the exactly what I was talking about, making a mockery of the whole concept.

Now your being obtuse. There is no mockery of the concept, not in being drug upon a stretcher by another elf. Much like a baby elf carried by its mother. If the stretcher is to much for you, then drop your gear and carry your tribe mate in your arms.

And another time, with two broken legs and arms, how the fuck do you even thing your going to drape yourself over the mount. Oh wait I have two broken legs, but I can stand, no wait I will pull myself up with these two broken arms. Really..

so, these things said, my point is uses some ingenuity, don't rely on the easy way out by ridding a mount.

... Why can't we be friends?

Quote from: Potaje on April 22, 2011, 12:11:18 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 22, 2011, 11:50:42 AM

Quote from: Potaje on April 22, 2011, 11:06:36 AM
All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Quote from: Marc on April 22, 2011, 11:01:38 AM

Sure it is, your not ridding, your being dragged in a sense.

That's the exactly what I was talking about, making a mockery of the whole concept.

Now your being obtuse. There is no mockery of the concept, not in being drug upon a stretcher by another elf. Much like a baby elf carried by its mother. If the stretcher is to much for you, then drop your gear and carry your tribe mate in your arms.

And another time, with two broken legs and arms, how the fuck do you even thing your going to drape yourself over the mount. Oh wait I have two broken legs, but I can stand, no wait I will pull myself up with these two broken arms. Really..

so, these things said, my point is uses some ingenuity, don't rely on the easy way out by ridding a mount.

Yes, when you said that an elf would sooner kill the mount and make a stretcher out of bones and cloaks than simply put his wounded friend on that mount that's pretty much the caricature of the "elves don't ride" mindset. If an elf can't use his legs for whatever reason, what's the difference in what gets him home?

Learn to quote, people.  We can't idly watch an RP argument unfold while eating popcorn and drinking soda if you don't quote properly.

Quote from: Nyr on April 22, 2011, 01:15:32 PM
I love you Nyr.

Learn to quote, people.  We can't idly watch an RP argument unfold while eating popcorn and drinking soda if you don't quote properly.

QuoteThere is no mockery of the concept, not in being drug upon a stretcher by another elf. Much like a baby elf carried by its mother. If the stretcher is to much for you, then drop your gear and carry your tribe mate in your arms.

It makes me wonder... does a baby elf take insult in being carried around by its mother? What about a child elf?

Elfkind's refusal to ride obviously comes from the pre-birth trauma of being carried around by their mother in the womb, which is magnified by the trauma of birth itself (upon discovery that they are, in fact, an elf), and compounded by the initial years in which the elf cannot move under its own power.

How could we have missed this?!


heh... Anyway, the solution to carrying an injured elf is simple - knock it the fuck out.  However, this "discussion" is starting to get silly and seems forced.

First, "riding" only has one "D" folks!

Second, Elf babies are like Gazelle, they can walk within a few minutes of birth, try stealing a few minutes later and of course run shortly after that.


Don't you guys know anything?

Where do you draw the line between our PCs whether they are elves or not thinking logically about some things and then not so much about others. Wouldn't they eventually figure out that they don't really care if they ride a mount to survive a situation or whatever? Sure I'm a great runner IRL but if I was getting shot at it I'd jump in a car pretty quick. I figured this out logically and most players play their PCs with the ability to think logically. So I guess my question is again.. where do you draw the line between that, if they can think logically about one thing they should be able to apply that logic to their whole thought process, not just some.

Logic depends on perspective.

My trooper did hear that one of her 'bred sergeants once  made her Neck runners ride.  Her own special test, I suppose.  Just gossip so I don't know it it really happened,and what happened to the runners then.

Quote from: Timetwister on April 22, 2011, 03:14:17 PM
Sure I'm a great runner IRL but if I was getting shot at it I'd jump in a car pretty quick. I figured this out logically and most players play their PCs with the ability to think logically. So I guess my question is again.. where do you draw the line between that, if they can think logically about one thing they should be able to apply that logic to their whole thought process, not just some.

It's pretty hard to explain to a Westerner's perspective. Elves have that group mentality, which is extremely powerful, where it would harm their whole race by riding. They would put themselves at the same level as the tribe. Not sure about the solo elves, though, but I think even they would have a built in instinctive shame attached to riding, even if they only care for themselves.

It's like a religious mentality, nobody questions it, no elf asks why shouldn't they, they just don't do it. It's how tradition works. An elf would probably not 'suddenly jump onto a mount'. They'd have to have a long thought process, with some logic process. In fact, they'd convince themselves that riding is bad even when they have a good reason to ride. And some non-elf would probably have to be there to convince the elf that it's the only choice.

If a human was being shot at, an there's an inix to him, the human's survival instinct would mean that the human jumps on the inix and rides the hell out.

If an elf was being shot at and there's some inix next to him, the elf's survival instinct would mean that the elf runs. There would be no instinct to jump on that inix. The thought just doesn't occur to them any more than jumping on a rock would. Maybe more creative elves would see that "hey, I can get on this mount and move faster/further" but in that elf's mind and pride, he'd be able to go faster and further than any mount.

Which doesn't make sense Smuz because players are using logic everyday they play their PCs. You have this hypocrisy where you pick and choose how your character thinks and then when the docs say, "think like this" you have paradoxically have to think that way because it's in the docs. From a psychological standpoint I think most people would eventually figure it out much as we humans on earth do. Not every tribe has 100% participation for something, and not every religion is going to have the same exact way of thinking for every person. A person thinks based on their experiences, not because they have an "instinct" to think a certain way.

I guess I'm more interested in the psychology of our characters on arm more then anything else.

Who says I can't ride with an elf? The staff that's who. So that's why I don't. No matter how much of an excuse you have it won't matter, the docs are the docs and I think that's very restrictive because I prefer things to happen ICly, unfortunately the game doesn't work that way as many things happen more often then not for OOC reasons, such as this "no elves ride" rule, which is an OOC rule.

Quote from: Timetwister on April 22, 2011, 03:53:49 PM
Which doesn't make sense Smuz because players are using logic everyday they play their PCs. You have this hypocrisy where you pick and choose how your character thinks and then when the docs say, "think like this" you have paradoxically have to think that way because it's in the docs. From a psychological standpoint I think most people would eventually figure it out much as we humans on earth do. Not every tribe has 100% participation for something, and not every religion is going to have the same exact way of thinking for every person. A person thinks based on their experiences, not because they have an "instinct" to think a certain way.

I guess I'm more interested in the psychology of our characters on arm more then anything else.

Who says I can't ride with an elf? The staff that's who. So that's why I don't. No matter how much of an excuse you have it won't matter, the docs are the docs and I think that's very restrictive because I prefer things to happen ICly, unfortunately the game doesn't work that way as many things happen more often then not for OOC reasons, such as this "no elves ride" rule, which is an OOC rule.

I thought Smuz explained it pretty well. I'll try again.

First, there's a couple of aspects to this. One, it's a fantasy world to begin with. It would be silly, for example, to argue that there should be no magick because magick isn't real. It's similar to argue against the elven thought process. It may seem illogical to us, but we're humans. They're elves in a fantasy world, and an entirely different race. They do think that way, because it's how they are. You could argue, "why doesn't a human have four legs, it makes more sense because balance would be easier," but humans would still have two legs. It's not an OOC rule that elves think that way, it's IC because it's the way the game is built. It's much the same how all dwarves have a focus.

We're only human, of course, so we can only understand things in our conception. I liked the Christianity example used:

Quote from: Marc on April 22, 2011, 11:01:38 AM
Riding a mount for an elf is like getting excommunicated from the Catholic church circa 1100 Papal states.  It's not only that your an outcast.  You're completely fucked.  No afterlife.  No respect.  No chance for work or proper employment.  Probably can't even work as a serf.  "But my children!  I must save them!"  Bollocks.  You saying you would risk their immortal soul (you're a believer mind you, 1100ad in rome), just so they can draw a few more breaths?  No way.

Hard to draw direct comparisons but for an elf it would be the same.  Not only is it a horrible, shameful act (ala raping children or cannibalism to a modern american) it pretty much ruins any chances you or your family have of ever living normally.  If you believe in any sort of spiritual stuffs you and they are probably completely screwed there.  No journey to Jihae when you die.  You're as worthless as sand and so are your kids.

An elf riding is not something that should really ever happen. Again, maybe in unimaginably extreme circumstances, but for the most part an elf who decided to ride would be like a staunch Christian suddenly deciding that to save their soul, they have to worship Satan. That's not exactly right, but as humans we can only make human comparisons.

So you're telling me we can't possibly understand why we're playing a character a certain way? I think we should be able to since the whole world is based off our own.

Is it safe to assume that the human race thinks like we do? What about half-elves? They are readily allowed to ride as they please.

My confusion is in the fact that there's no psychological explanation there's just a cop out explanation of "We can't possibly understand them.. they're elves.."

If we can understand the elves of Tolkien I'm fairly sure we can understand the elves of Zalanthas. There just doesn't seem to be any real reason that they don't ride other then the much utilized excuse of "pride" which is very much an earth-derived, human emotion. So if they are able to be so radically proud of their running ability as to just die instead of ride a mount, then can we not assume that it is possible for there to be elves that are so radically humble that they would ride?

Quote from: Timetwister on April 22, 2011, 04:16:39 PM
So you're telling me we can't possibly understand why we're playing a character a certain way? I think we should be able to since the whole world is based off our own.

Is it safe to assume that the human race thinks like we do? What about half-elves? They are readily allowed to ride as they please.

My confusion is in the fact that there's no psychological explanation there's just a cop out explanation of "We can't possibly understand them.. they're elves.."

If we can understand the elves of Tolkien I'm fairly sure we can understand the elves of Zalanthas. There just doesn't seem to be any real reason that they don't ride other then the much utilized excuse of "pride" which is very much an earth-derived, human emotion. So if they are able to be so radically proud of their running ability as to just die instead of ride a mount, then can we not assume that it is possible for there to be elves that are so radically humble that they would ride?

Half-elves can ride or not based on character, because they're deluded with human blood. On the other hand, half-elves have other things that always occur, based solely on race. A half-elf always has psychological drama going on.

There is a psychological explanation, and that is that elves have pride. Sometimes people will do things IRL even if it gets them killed. For example, in the Salem witch trials there was a man who was pressed to death with rocks. If he confessed, he would be let go. His response? "More weight." Think of elves like that.

But if there weren't docs to work from, and if we weren't willing to accept the docs, no matter how odd they may be, eventually we'd all be playing 20th century humans in funny clothes.

I think that the confines to the docs and limited options in certain directions provide a catalyst for flavor and in fact creativity.

The problem is the divide between reality and fantasy. Unfortunately we can't explain the fantasy side of the game, but we can draw on our realities here on earth to explain as much of the similarities as we can.

Quote
For example, in the Salem witch trials there was a man who was pressed to death with rocks. If he confessed, he would be let go. His response? "More weight." Think of elves like that.

I like this example because we can draw on it to understand their mindsets, however there were just as many 'human' people who confessed and were let go. I guess it's hard to think of an elf as being that close-minded when we as humans are not at all, and we are the ones playing them. In my time I've seen many elves that are proud but the pride exhibited is all-encompassing, not just pride about running --  yet with all this pride they still have human flaws, exhibited by their very human players. This is where it's hard to justify such a stringent rule placed on the race itself. If I can pick out fallacies in an elf's mindset, then the pride excuse simply doesn't make much sense in the long run.

Quote from: Barzalene on April 22, 2011, 04:20:59 PM
But if there weren't docs to work from, and if we weren't willing to accept the docs, no matter how odd they may be, eventually we'd all be playing 20th century humans in funny clothes.

I think that the confines to the docs and limited options in certain directions provide a catalyst for flavor and in fact creativity.

True, but the docs aren't adamantly adhered to by many players. When is the last time you knew a dwarves foci from the moment you met them? I have rarely ever figured out what a dwarves focus is without spending years around them, and if a dwarf was that determined and stubborn to complete his task wouldn't it be the only thing he ever talks about? Yet many dwarves are played with the freedom of humans simply for the strength boost.

So while the docs are a great thing, I've always seem them as guidelines, not actively enforceable rules, whereas they are enforceable but only at the staff's discretion. I have never heard of a dwarf being retired for not doing something related to his focus. Or seen a half-elf retired for not being a loner or being too happy all the time. Or seen a mul retired for playing against the typical emotionless bred automatons that they all seem to be. So that's the hypocrisy with the elven ride thing. If you ride with an elf you get retired, yet all these other races which have their docs bent or twisted as the players see fit don't get any flack about it.

This is just in my experience though maybe somebody can shed some light on why this is the case?

Quote from: Timetwister on April 22, 2011, 04:50:53 PMThis is where it's hard to justify such a stringent rule placed on the race itself. If I can pick out fallacies in an elf's mindset, then the pride excuse simply doesn't make much sense in the long run.

I get the pride about riding, and even wagons, but I really don't understand silt skimmers. It's not like you can run over silt anyway.

Quote from: Timetwister on April 22, 2011, 04:59:02 PM

Quote from: Barzalene on April 22, 2011, 04:20:59 PM
But if there weren't docs to work from, and if we weren't willing to accept the docs, no matter how odd they may be, eventually we'd all be playing 20th century humans in funny clothes.

I think that the confines to the docs and limited options in certain directions provide a catalyst for flavor and in fact creativity.

True, but the docs aren't adamantly adhered to by many players. ...

So while the docs are a great thing, I've always seem them as guidelines, not actively enforceable rules, whereas they are enforceable but only at the staff's discretion. ...

This is just in my experience though maybe somebody can shed some light on why this is the case?

This may be true, but aren't you glad that there are some who do absolutely adhere to the docs? Don't you wish there were more?  I guess my point is, why do you want to use the people who are aiming low as your example?

I'm not trying to us them as an example, I'm just pointing out the fact that there doesn't seem to be a baseline for enforcing the docs. If it's pick and choose it's not fair to people who want to try and be flexible in their play and bend the docs so that they can work on something that might be construed as a 'black sheep' but if docs have to be followed 100% you simply can't do it. Yet that frustrates players who see docs broken everyday in all sorts of instances.

Like I said I'm looking for a baseline, so that all of the docs are enforced, not just the ones that are deemed more important than others. I don't think we should put that kind of a factor on documentation. All of it should come together and be followed, not just some of it as we see fit as players. So it's either follow them or bend them, or just break them altogether by making an elf that tries to ride and get retired because that documentation 'rule' is at the top of the ladder and we all know that.

Quote from: Timetwister on April 22, 2011, 03:53:49 PM
Which doesn't make sense Smuz because players are using logic everyday they play their PCs. You have this hypocrisy where you pick and choose how your character thinks and then when the docs say, "think like this" you have paradoxically have to think that way because it's in the docs. From a psychological standpoint I think most people would eventually figure it out much as we humans on earth do. Not every tribe has 100% participation for something, and not every religion is going to have the same exact way of thinking for every person. A person thinks based on their experiences, not because they have an "instinct" to think a certain way.

It may be logical to you, but not to an elf. We have very different ways of thinking than even humans then, much less an elf. To a modern American, born with the concepts of liberalism and individual rights, a group mentality is a lot harder to grasp. It's very well that they'd put a group of people they don't even know as more important than themselves, hence why the shame thing is so powerful. If you want a modern look, look at the WW2 kamikaze pilots. They individually earn nothing from killing themselves, but because of the powerful group mentality, they'd rather die than be shamed. Elves care even more about their tribe than the most tight-knit human society you could think of. I've spent so many hours trying to explain RL Asian mindset to a lot of people, who just don't get it, a more alien elven mindset is so much harder to explain.

Look again at an elf. They're some of the weakest humanoids in Zalanthas. Elves would get torn apart against any other humanoid one on one. That's why they've formed into tribes or gangs. Tribes are what makes them survive. Heck, play an untribed elf; you'll find it difficult to beat anyone without friends. They need to work together to live, and become one with their tribe.

Now fast forward this as long as elven history has gone on. It's a lot of thousand years with such a tribe mentality burned into their brain. They also have a long history of being runners. It's something they're proud of doing. They run better than any other race in the world.

And heck, there's plenty of things that humans do that go against logic. In some cases just for tradition. Look at the fight or flight reaction. There's tons of biological quirks that we haven't worked out yet which were needed for our ancestors to survive. People can and do think with their instincts all the time.

And if you've been in enough internet/political arguments, you'll find that people don't find logic to support their beliefs. They find facts that support their political beliefs. For an elf, riding a mount is just some absurd political belief, some kind of heresy. They will pull all sorts of mental gymnastics to point out that they don't need to ride, even if the facts clearly state so.

QuoteIs it safe to assume that the human race thinks like we do? What about half-elves? They are readily allowed to ride as they please.

Half-elves are a different race. They don't identify with elves at all. Making all the other points moot as there's nothing for them to be ashamed about. Half-elves are truly only themselves and the world. IIRC, they don't even really identify with each other as the same group. Because of this sort of loneliness, they even have a better connection with their mounts than with other people.

QuoteThere just doesn't seem to be any real reason that they don't ride other then the much utilized excuse of "pride" which is very much an earth-derived, human emotion. So if they are able to be so radically proud of their running ability as to just die instead of ride a mount, then can we not assume that it is possible for there to be elves that are so radically humble that they would ride?

Pride is far stronger in an elf than it is in a human. There are perhaps elves that are more humble than other elves, but it's still an ingrained trait. Elven pride doesn't just apply to themselves.. anyone would rather put aside their pride than die. Their pride applies to every other elf, which makes it a complex situation.

Of course, there will be elves who just aren't as proud of other elves (again why half elves don't give a damn). But they will still have enough pride to respect how other elves don't like the riding thing, long after they've agreed not to ride. I don't get why not skimmers, though.

QuoteWho says I can't ride with an elf? The staff that's who. So that's why I don't. No matter how much of an excuse you have it won't matter, the docs are the docs and I think that's very restrictive because I prefer things to happen ICly, unfortunately the game doesn't work that way as many things happen more often then not for OOC reasons, such as this "no elves ride" rule, which is an OOC rule.

That's why you have to be creative with interpreting it. As it is, the OOC rules are OOC rules. They enforce a certain kind of interaction and create their own little cultural conflicts that flesh out the game. And IMO, being creative with it is one of the things that make the game fun. This is a lot of room for interpretation, though, as long as it's not explicitly written.

Of course, you'll find a lot of cop outs in any fantasy setting (especially all this 'magic', which is a cop out by definition), and you'll have to roll with it eventually :P

I'm not asking to be argumentative, but curious. If you (hypothetical you) wrote the staff and said, I want to play a Red Fang (they're closed so that's probably safe) and I want to play someone who bucks tradition and and goes against whatever is held sacred. I want to be a black sheep. And they said, Go, go with our blessing. So you get on a beetle and rode, and your tribe gangs up on you and kills you - would that be an acceptable reaction and one less stifling than a no from staff?

I guess what I'm asking here is if we demand that the staff give us the  freedom to interpret docs as we like, do we also demand that our peers do the same, or is it acceptable for us, as a community to be self-policing?

Why would beeing dragged on a sled, or beeing carried by another elf be different from sitting on a mount ?
In either case you're not moving on your own ? So would all three be intolerable for an elf ?

What's with elven children ? Especially with nomadic elves that travel all time ? Due to them beeing children, how
will they keep up ?

What's with the example of the war argosy ? What if there's a little merchant and a whole gang of elves enter
the wagon ? And the merchant would make the wagon move ? Would all elves really jump off ?

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 22, 2011, 03:16:02 PM
Logic depends on perspective.

Elves have a different perspective than us. Just as an Indian might have a different perspective than a European way back in the colonial days.

Quote from: theebie on April 22, 2011, 06:04:28 PM
What's with the example of the war argosy ? What if there's a little merchant and a whole gang of elves enter
the wagon ? And the merchant would make the wagon move ? Would all elves really jump off ?

No, it's a joke. See the original post (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39609.msg553297.html#msg553297). The joke is that elves can't ride in things as a matter of pride, so if you're in a moving wagon they HAVE to get off it, to save their pride!!!

But not really, because that would be silly. In reality, if they're entering a wagon to raid it, there's no intention to ride.

Quote from: Semper on April 22, 2011, 06:11:15 PM

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 22, 2011, 03:16:02 PM
Logic depends on perspective.

Elves have a different perspective than us. Just as an Indian might have a different perspective than a European way back in the colonial days.

You don't need to look into the past to find people who apply logic to only selective things.

People do it all the time, like in matters concerning science and religion. Some people just take things for granted, and don't need to think about them logically to hold that opinion or act that way. They're the same race, species, and even from the same time.

It's like being racist, there usually isn't much logic behind it. It stems from a lot of opinions that racists never allow to be seriously challenged.

Likewise, an elf doesn't allow the fact that there is another mode of transportation apart from their legs to seriously enter into the equation.

I wish people would understand that it's FUN to play an alien mindset. It's something that is so incomprehensible that you are making a role of it. It's like, at a lesser degree, playing someone polyamorous when you're proudly married. IRL you simply could not imagine, or tolerate, the concept of having several wives or husbands. But it's fun to imagine, isn't it? Doing something so incomprehensible and it being normal.

Elves don't ride mounts because it's FUN that they don't. The way they think, it's fun.

i never understood the part about elves refusing to ride skimmers. seems sort of redundant to me. is it simply because skimmers are something that transports you when you sit on it?

All I really got to add is any of my tribal elves would kill the elf they seen riding a mount or in a wagon. They'd see it as you being a shame to the entire race and need to be put down for it in the most radical way. They'd hunt the elf down and destroy them for acting like a weak human that uses beasts of burden and not their own strength / legs.

So being the black sheep would most likely get you killed. Instantly.  So those 'few' elves (if any even existed, which I don't agree they do) that ever thought differently would be removed.

Its instinct and culture up bringing. Plain and simple.  Its not only something the race seems to hold as a whole from birth, but something burned into your mind all your life by tribe/family.
To an elf nothing makes more logical sense then using his/her own legs to run from place to place. Its something seen as completely illogical to ride by the race.

Quote from: Semper on April 22, 2011, 06:11:15 PM

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 22, 2011, 03:16:02 PM
Logic depends on perspective.

Elves have a different perspective than us. Just as an Indian might have a different perspective than a European way back in the colonial days.

I agree with Strange Shadow.  If you add something: logic depends on perspective of the person in question.  Which means your perspective should be from that of the elf and not yourself as you are the player, not the character, our and its logic are far different.

Quote from: Cindy42 on April 22, 2011, 06:43:58 PM
i never understood the part about elves refusing to ride skimmers. seems sort of redundant to me. is it simply because skimmers are something that transports you when you sit on it?

It's easier to understand it like this: if an elf can't move over a certain distance on its own, then it's not worth attempting to travel that distance. For everything else, there's an elf's own body. (Except in exceptionally exceptional cases, which are so rare anyway.)

I think elves should be able to run on the top of silt with the right footwear.  ;D

People are really stretching it to think of a reason why elves should ride. The point is culturally, psychologically, emotionally and socially they abhore riding, as a species. The extremely rare freak who does ride would be killed by other elves for the abomination he is, or more likely fall and break his neck while trying to ride for the very first time with broken arms and legs at high speed.

Quote from: Cutthroat on April 22, 2011, 06:48:41 PM

Quote from: Cindy42 on April 22, 2011, 06:43:58 PM
i never understood the part about elves refusing to ride skimmers. seems sort of redundant to me. is it simply because skimmers are something that transports you when you sit on it?

It's easier to understand it like this: if an elf can't move over a certain distance on its own, then it's not worth attempting to travel that distance. For everything else, there's an elf's own body. (Except in exceptionally exceptional cases, which are so rare anyway.)

This makes complete logical sense to me, for anything over land. I don't get it with the Silt Sea. Is it that they don't want to rely on others at all? If so, why isn't it acceptable for them to build their own skimmer, and then go on it? It's not like there's any way of walking across silt.

Quote from: jhunter on April 22, 2011, 06:56:41 PM
I think elves should be able to run on the top of silt with the right footwear.  ;D

Dude. I would totally buy those with even a non-elf PC. I'd also get eaten by a silt horror, but it would be AWESOME. That is all.

Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 22, 2011, 06:45:13 PM
All I really got to add is any of my tribal elves would kill the elf they seen riding a mount or in a wagon. They'd see it as you being a shame to the entire race and need to be put down for it in the most radical way. They'd hunt the elf down and destroy them for acting like a weak human that uses beasts of burden and not their own strength / legs.

Then all of your tribal elves are too extreme. To elves, riding is a shame and warrants ridicule shunning and exile, well, maybe even corporal punishment depending on the tribe but... shame to entire race? That's human thinking there.

Quote from: Taven on April 22, 2011, 07:00:23 PM
Dude. I would totally buy those with even a non-elf PC. I'd also get eaten by a silt horror, but it would be AWESOME. That is all.

Hahaha, I probably would too.

QuoteFrom account notes:
Keeps making Red Storm pcs, putting silt shoes on them and wandering the Silt Sea until they're eaten.

Quote from: Semper on April 22, 2011, 06:11:15 PM

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 22, 2011, 03:16:02 PM
Logic depends on perspective.

Elves have a different perspective than us. Just as an Indian might have a different perspective than a European way back in the colonial days.

That was, essentially, my point. Elven mindsets are completely logical to elves. :)

Hand-waving is rarely the route to good fiction.

I can't believe this thread is 5 pages long.

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 22, 2011, 07:03:57 PM

Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 22, 2011, 06:45:13 PM
All I really got to add is any of my tribal elves would kill the elf they seen riding a mount or in a wagon. They'd see it as you being a shame to the entire race and need to be put down for it in the most radical way. They'd hunt the elf down and destroy them for acting like a weak human that uses beasts of burden and not their own strength / legs.

Then all of your tribal elves are too extreme. To elves, riding is a shame and warrants ridicule shunning and exile, well, maybe even corporal punishment depending on the tribe but... shame to entire race? That's human thinking there.

No.  Not at all.  Humans tend to see weakness and wish to either help or take advantage of the weakling or pity the person. And nothing- not even sleeping with a breed/elf- is as shameful to a human as riding a mount is to a elf. The entire tribe or town are not going shun you, or see you as holding an extreme weakness forever. Just that your a sicko breed kanker.

Elves see riding a mount as a sign of the most extreme weakness, and no tribe needs a weak member that is useless. I see exile or execution being the only two ways a tribe of elves would deal with one of their own riding on a mount. All elven thinking against riding is extreme.

I agree with BlackMagic0. Either exile or execution, IMO.

It is becoming glaringly apparent to me as to why there are so few good elf players.

I was thinking the same thing.

(http://curezone.com/upload/Members/new03/Beating_a_dead_horse.gif)

I think it's been made abundantly clear that elves don't ride. 'Nuff said.

This is all moot, imho, because city elves shouldn't be outside the city without good reason, and because it's their job or whatnot often isn't good enough a reason.  If they do go outside, they should plan for doing it with the limitations they have.  Sometimes this means going it alone so that they don't have riders bitching at them.  Maybe it means not going so far, or being able to defend yourself alone, etc.

On the other hand, we have the Byn Sarges.  They shouldn't make the city elves go outside, if you ask me.  Oh, you might ask, "But what about outdoor missions?"  My answer is simple.  Don't bring them along on outdoor missions.  You know the elf won't be able to keep up with the mounts.  It's that simple.  You want discrimination?  Here you go.  This solution carries my stamp of approval, actually.

If people start avoiding the Byn with city elves, because it suddenly got harder to play one, I'm all for that too.  You want to play an elf?  Great, but play an elf, not a quick human that can also do elf stuff.  It's either with a tribe or alone, and both mean you have to distrust outsiders.  A tribeless city elf has nobody to trust, and they're going to go to the Byn for one?  I've nevr liked that answer because everyone should know that mercenaries can easily be bought, can't trust that to keep you safe.

I already wrote up and submitted 13 pages of changes to every general information document/help-file, to amend them such that they would allow city-elves to ride, and it was rejected.  At this point, I don't think there's any amount of bitching on the GDB that will change the staff's mind about the situation.  Good luck on your crusade, though.

Quote from: Malifaxis on April 22, 2011, 11:02:40 PM
It is becoming glaringly apparent to me as to why there are so few good elf players.

Yup.

I'd just like to throw it in there that if you play an elf correctly, you feel like you are the most Zalanthan mofo around. For a truly gritty, cut-throat world of real hardasses I suggest we ban human, breed, dwarf, mul, half-giant for just a week and see how bloody the streets get.

Quote from: Majikal on April 23, 2011, 12:31:58 AM

Quote from: Malifaxis on April 22, 2011, 11:02:40 PM
It is becoming glaringly apparent to me as to why there are so few good elf players.

Yup.

I'd just like to throw it in there that if you play an elf correctly, you feel like you are the most Zalanthan mofo around. For a truly gritty, cut-throat world of real hardasses I suggest we ban human, breed, dwarf, mul, half-giant for just a week and see how bloody the streets get.

People would simply play humans with elf stats and mdescs. It already happens regularly.

I'm wth Mazy, we're beating a dead Kank now.

(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n103/wizard343/ozzfest%202007/fail-elf-fail-elf-failsz.jpg)

Quote from: jhunter on April 22, 2011, 06:56:41 PM
I think elves should be able to run on the top of silt with the right footwear.  ;D

This entire dumb thread was worthwhile if only for this post.

Quote from: Fathi on April 23, 2011, 03:14:20 AM

Quote from: jhunter on April 22, 2011, 06:56:41 PM
I think elves should be able to run on the top of silt with the right footwear.  ;D

This entire dumb thread was worthwhile if only for this post.

QFT

Quote from: Timetwister on April 22, 2011, 05:14:55 PM
I'm not trying to us them as an example, I'm just pointing out the fact that there doesn't seem to be a baseline for enforcing the docs. If it's pick and choose it's not fair to people who want to try and be flexible in their play and bend the docs so that they can work on something that might be construed as a 'black sheep' but if docs have to be followed 100% you simply can't do it. Yet that frustrates players who see docs broken everyday in all sorts of instances.

Like I said I'm looking for a baseline, so that all of the docs are enforced, not just the ones that are deemed more important than others. I don't think we should put that kind of a factor on documentation. All of it should come together and be followed, not just some of it as we see fit as players. So it's either follow them or bend them, or just break them altogether by making an elf that tries to ride and get retired because that documentation 'rule' is at the top of the ladder and we all know that.

There is a baseline for enforcing the docs: staff.  When in doubt, ask staff.  If every one of your PCs is a "black sheep" according to the docs, you aren't playing Armageddon.  You're playing the exception to the rule just because you want to even if it doesn't make sense according to the documentation and staff.  It's more fun for you because you're playing something outside of the docs, but that's only because you have not grasped that playing something well WITHIN the documentation is far more difficult and interesting.

Furthermore, there are places in documentation where things are not as strict in some regards because the reactions to going against those documented strictures, social mores, and styles can be accommodated in-character.  However, within sponsored roles (and especially tribal roles), these strictures, social mores, and styles become more important; they very clearly define what your sponsored role IS to your character, your character's sponsored group (tribe, clan, whatever), and the rest of the world.  Around the edges there can be some leeway.  The core of the documentation for such clans, however, must be followed, for without it, you're just making up your own role as you go.  We've force-stored people for egregious displays of disregard for their clan's documentation before (don't fret, only after warnings or when the disregard was so blatant that it was ridiculous).  

There are some things in the world that are beyond documentation interpretation and are relatively simple to follow, and one of those things is racial documentation.  There generally aren't PCs in the world that will put your elf in any of the aforementioned hyperbolic and hypothetical situations; I can't name a time that occurred.  There generally aren't PCs in the world that will attempt to destroy your dwarf's perception of a focus to the point that he or she goes insane and explodes; I can't name a time that occurred, either.  It's fun to think about how far things could go, but until you find yourself in a situation where your elf has two broken legs and has to ride a mount in order to save his or her tribe, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Following along with what Nyr said, city elves are called city elves for a reason.  This is why they can't be rangers, and why desert elves make fun of their weak legs and soft lifestyles.  Their tribes are within the walls of a city, and they don't travel much, if at all.  Most city elves never leave their city even once in their lives.