Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Salt Merchant on June 29, 2009, 08:01:32 PM

Title: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Salt Merchant on June 29, 2009, 08:01:32 PM
"The tavern is filled with dusty travelers, weary-looking hunters, off-duty militia guards, and various hooded figures who move through the crowd."
(Your character is one of those hooded figures who is moving through the crowd).

>
The giant, obese figure in the tan dustcloak arrives from above.
>

(wait for it.... wait for it... -drumroll-)
The giant, obese figure in the tan dustcloak looks at you.
>
(tah dah! -fanfare-)

Every single time. Every. Single. Time. Every time, without exception, this new stranger will have picked you out of the vast crowd and noted every last detail of your appearance, hood not withstanding.

I'm not some sneaky feck trying to con you. I'm not stark naked, nor covered in blood, nor waving a long sword around. I'm not shouting or giving you the evil eye or flaunting enormous feathers or coughing my lungs out or talking gibberish to a wooden parrot on my shoulder. Why, out of everyone there, are you staring at me?

Am I alone in wanting to go on a battleaxe rampage through the Red Sun Commons after several of these incidents?

What can be done to make looks more digestible, so if you're truly an eyesore or stand out in some way, people take notice, but otherwise not necessarily?


Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Solifugid on June 29, 2009, 08:05:12 PM
Oh jesus christ.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: WarriorPoet on June 29, 2009, 08:06:59 PM
Part of being a PC.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: jcljules on June 29, 2009, 08:08:02 PM
I agree. I haven't been able to think of a solution myself, but I agree a change must be made. And even a considerate player, who will try to ignore the relevant parts of your mdesc, will still know -- and its difficult to act like you don't know something, sometimes.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on June 29, 2009, 08:09:03 PM
I don't think it's a big deal at all. It's unreasonable to ask for players to not look at other PCs when they enter a room--it's the only way to get certain knowledge about them that you'd otherwise not have to really study them for.

I'd be in favor of killing the look echo unless there's a command emote attached.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: jstorrie on June 29, 2009, 08:21:35 PM
I look at PCs to tell if they have obvious weapons out / magickal effects / gross deformities / symbols of clan affiliation / other things which would cause me to notice them in a crowd. This is necessary from a playability perspective. Nobody's staring. Chill out.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: X-D on June 29, 2009, 08:25:44 PM
So, with every PC I have, when entering a new area for the first time my PC looks at every NPC and PC there.

The next time in, walking into the area it is easy to see that some people (mostly npcs) Have not changed, matter of fact, all the unhooded PCs have been seen before. Oh wait, there is somebody new...or at least I cannot tell if they are new or not because they are wearing a hood/facewrap/mask...look dude.

Several years ago I lived in Wichita KS, there was a neighberhood bar across the street. I went there almost every day. I knew all the regulars and they knew me. When I entered the bar I would glance around and the people I knew are basicly backround. If there was somebody I did not know, I made sure to get a good look at them. Same thing.

Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: titansfan on June 29, 2009, 08:26:22 PM
Not to sound mean or anything, but I think this is silly, looks really don't mean that much. Besides them looking at you after all the VNPC's. When I go into a bar IRL I look at everyone in there atleast with a skimming glance.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Salt Merchant on June 29, 2009, 08:26:33 PM
I look at PCs to tell if they have obvious weapons out / magickal effects / gross deformities / symbols of clan affiliation / other things which would cause me to notice them in a crowd. This is necessary from a playability perspective. Nobody's staring. Chill out.

Yet if the hood is down, nine times out of ten your character will not get 'the look' except from someone who hasn't met him before. Why isn't your character checking Ms. Salarr to see if she's decided to appear starkers today, for example? Why isn't Ms. Salarr giving your character 'the look' to see if, this time, you have a knife in hand?
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Eloran on June 29, 2009, 08:27:28 PM
lol
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Jenred on June 29, 2009, 08:46:04 PM
Its been said before, everytime this comes up: Make the look echo hidden unless decided by the player to have it echo.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Lizzie on June 29, 2009, 08:50:16 PM
Yet if the hood is down, nine times out of ten your character will not get 'the look' except from someone who hasn't met him before. Why isn't your character checking Ms. Salarr to see if she's decided to appear starkers today, for example? Why isn't Ms. Salarr giving your character 'the look' to see if, this time, you have a knife in hand?

Because it's Ms. Salarr. We already KNOW she's Ms. Salarr, because her hood's down and we recognize her without having to "look" at her. We know that IF she is holding a weapon, it's probably because she's in the process of selling it to someone.

If it's someone we -can't- recognize, because they have their hood up, then we -have- to look, to see if we recognize them or not. And THEN we can roleplay either recognizing them, not recognizing them, or not caring enough to do either.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Marauder Moe on June 29, 2009, 08:56:43 PM
Look is fine.

You people just need to get over yourselves.

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean they've copied your mdesc into a txt file or otherwise memorized it.

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean they're not ICly looking at other things too.  (Using look on vNPCs doesn't echo.  ::) )

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean you have the right to force on them whatever IC action you feel like it being (ie, a long, aggressive stare).
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: jhunter on June 29, 2009, 09:00:44 PM
Yeah, I think you're making a huge deal out of nothing. I look at every pc that I've not seen before when they enter a room or I enter a room. It is a part of being a pc.

There's no way to tell if there is some reason for you to involve yourself with that other person or to know if there is something that would be obvious about them without looking.

No offense intended, but deal with it and move on.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: jhunter on June 29, 2009, 09:02:57 PM
Look is fine.

You people just need to get over yourselves.

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean they've copied your mdesc into a txt file or otherwise memorized it.

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean they're not ICly looking at other things too.  (Using look on vNPCs doesn't echo.  ::) )

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean you have the right to force on them whatever IC action you feel like it being (ie, a long, aggressive stare).


So true. Someone tried to force one of my pcs into (a long, aggressive stare) because I looked at them once. Unfortunately for them, the pc I was playing at the time was a complete badass who didn't take shit from anyone other than nobles or templars. He gutted them soon after.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Ourla on June 29, 2009, 09:03:21 PM
I totally agree with Marauder Moe.  

Get used to it, dude.  I'm not going to stop looking at PCs.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Fathi on June 29, 2009, 09:15:00 PM
Look is fine.

You people just need to get over yourselves.

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean they've copied your mdesc into a txt file or otherwise memorized it.

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean they're not ICly looking at other things too.  (Using look on vNPCs doesn't echo.  ::) )

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean you have the right to force on them whatever IC action you feel like it being (ie, a long, aggressive stare).

Exactly.

Is it really that hard to just ignore the standard look echo unless you notice an emote is attached to it, or unless the circumstances are unique (i.e. you're hiding)?

I'd be fine with the echo being removed, but ignoring it isn't difficult.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: a strange shadow on June 29, 2009, 09:22:18 PM
If you don't want people to look at you, don't be noticed.

(that said, I'm a fan of removing the look echo unless there is an emote attached.)

>throw two cents thread
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: jhunter on June 29, 2009, 09:30:24 PM
I'm also a fan of having the look echo removed unless there is an emote attached. It is rather unrealistic for others to know for certain what you are looking at exactly most of the time. One thing that has always bothered me is that if someone looks at another who is hidden (that only they can see) it lets anyone else around know that there is someone hidden there even if they can't see them or were not told that they were there.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: X-D on June 30, 2009, 12:02:33 AM
I don't think the look echo should be removed, you...well I, know most the time when somebody is looking at me.

But I agree on invis/hid. I mean really, jojo looks at someone...Huh? How the hell do I know he is looking at someone and not the couch or just staring off into space. Its like a power emote.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Pale Horse on June 30, 2009, 12:27:00 AM
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: mansa on June 30, 2009, 12:32:02 AM
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: SmashedTregil on June 30, 2009, 12:38:26 AM
I dont mind about looks. What I 'do' mind is <looks/leave> kind of thing. Especially when people chase you down, only to take a look, and then leave without a single emote. That annoys me to no end.

If you looked at someone, atleast have the decency to describe your reaction to looking to someone (even if it is indifference), before you leave. Otherwise you're just an information gathering scripted npc.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Gimfalisette on June 30, 2009, 01:51:36 AM
I agree with everyone who thinks y'all should get over it. A look is just a look, stop fussing.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: jstorrie on June 30, 2009, 02:25:35 AM
Yet if the hood is down, nine times out of ten your character will not get 'the look' except from someone who hasn't met him before.

Because characters trust people they know and thus scrutinize them less? You're really making a mountain out of a molehill here, dude.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 30, 2009, 02:33:20 AM
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Third'd

Maybe it would eliminate these discussions.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Agent_137 on June 30, 2009, 03:55:03 AM
Oh jesus christ.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Bogre on June 30, 2009, 04:43:48 AM
I look at everyone.

But don't feel special, I tend to look at every thing as well.

Anyways, I wouldn't like the look echo taken off. Half the time you know someone is paying attention or have noticed you if you get a look. It would be weird if it didn't echo and all of a sudden people went, out of the blue, "Dude you look rough." "wtf how did you know that."

Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Bogre on June 30, 2009, 04:45:22 AM
Plus I think it would lessen the amount of look emotes people do if the look echo is taken.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Salt Merchant on June 30, 2009, 06:41:08 AM
I think we can do better than to "get over it".

For one thing, a list of conditions could be made so that, when a character arrives, it becomes apparent to everyone that there is something unusual about his or her appearance.

Conditions could include such states as:
- being naked or partially naked
- being near death or badly wounded
- looking particularly ill
- wielding a weapon in-city without being a militia member or a templar
- carrying something exceptionally bulky
- whatever else seems reasonable

An example:
>
The tressy-tressed young lass arrives from the north.
The tressy-tressed young lass looks nearly dead!
>

And there could be a survey command that lists people in unusual states within the room.

> survey
The lanky, scarred half-elf looks nearly dead!
The short, burly dwarf is bleeding profusely!
>

Which might be useful after a big fight.

This, combined with removing the somewhat aggressive "looks at you" message (which really, since it provides every detail, indicates more than a simple glance; it should echo more like "looks at you from head to toe and maneuvers to get a good view under your hood no matter which way you're facing") could allow both the hypervigilant and the new boy/girl in town to relax somewhat.

Also, I suggest that NPCs raise their hoods, especially in sandstorms.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: AmandaGreathouse on June 30, 2009, 06:47:43 AM
Some of you sound so bitter. First and foremost, it's a game. And, at that, a text-based one.

Whatever happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt? I mean, shit, just because someone looks at your l33t raid3r of d00m doesn't mean they're going to remember all the details automagickally.

Second, in a world as poor as Zalanthas, if you're wearing jewelry, nice clothes, relatively decent armor, you're going to garner a few looks. Likely from VNPC's as well.

Third, this is an RPI, it is a mixture of code -and- roleplay. I don't think you need to code every single thing to make it playable. Christ, are we going to take -all- the decisions from players and have them coded? Yeah, I'm sure.

Seriously, it's just a look.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: HTX on June 30, 2009, 07:18:16 AM
I think we can do better than to "get over it".

For one thing, a list of conditions could be made so that, when a character arrives, it becomes apparent to everyone that there is something unusual about his or her appearance.

Conditions could include such states as:
- being naked or partially naked
- being near death or badly wounded
- looking particularly ill
- wielding a weapon in-city without being a militia member or a templar
- carrying something exceptionally bulky
- whatever else seems reasonable

Yes.

Also - perhaps a command allowing people to view other people's equipment list without showing a look echo, something I recall been suggested ages ago and something I'm still in support of.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Lizzie on June 30, 2009, 08:20:57 AM
I think we can do better than to "get over it".

For one thing, a list of conditions could be made so that, when a character arrives, it becomes apparent to everyone that there is something unusual about his or her appearance.

Conditions could include such states as:
- being naked or partially naked
- being near death or badly wounded
- looking particularly ill
- wielding a weapon in-city without being a militia member or a templar
- carrying something exceptionally bulky
- whatever else seems reasonable

An example:
>
The tressy-tressed young lass arrives from the north.
The tressy-tressed young lass looks nearly dead!
>

Let's expand that example to reflect a more common scene:
A Byn unit has just arrived in the Gaj for their day off.
A green-eyed man arrives from the north.
A green-eyed man is missing his pants!
A green-eyed man is badly wounded!
A green-eyed man looks thirsty!
A green-eyed man is wielding a weapon!
A green-eyed man is carrying a backpack!

A blue-eyed man arrives from the north.
A blue-eyed man is badly wounded!
A blue-eyed man looks hungry!
A blue-eyed man is wielding a weapon!

A red-haired man arrives from the north.
A red-haired man is wounded!
A red-haired man is carrying a chest!

A big half-giant arrives from the north.
A big half-giant is carrying an enormous crate!
A big half-giant looks hungry!
A big half-giant looks sick!

And so on and so forth..and everyone who is sitting in the bar is subjected to 20 pages of screen scroll just because 5 noobs and one Byn Sergeant walked into the room, just returned from a day of sparring.

No. Thank you, but no.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Cutthroat on June 30, 2009, 08:24:25 AM
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Third'd

Maybe it would eliminate these discussions.
Fourth'd

If there must be -any- change, this is the one I'd like to see. I know I've suggested it somewhere before.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on June 30, 2009, 08:25:23 AM
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Third'd

Maybe it would eliminate these discussions.
Fourth'd

If there must be -any- change, this is the one I'd like to see. I know I've suggested it somewhere before.
Fifth'd.

Sorry. Just felt like this should reach the heights of absurdity that it deserves. Also, I do honestly agree.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Jorlain on June 30, 2009, 08:37:52 AM
New command: Glance

glance woman

You glance at the so-and-so woman.
  Insert fancy mdesc here.

No echos on glance. All it gives you is their mdesc. That way, for those of us that just need to re-read your mdesc, we can do so without an annoying "so-and-so looks at you".

Look is still present, shows you their mdesc, and visible equipment, and has the standard echo attached.

Problem resolved.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on June 30, 2009, 08:39:20 AM
New command: Glance

glance woman

You glance at the so-and-so woman.
  Insert fancy mdesc here.

No echos on glance. All it gives you is their mdesc. That way, for those of us that just need to re-read your mdesc, we can do so without an annoying "so-and-so looks at you".

Look is still present, shows you their mdesc, and visible equipment, and has the standard echo attached.

Problem resolved.

It isn't the mdesc I'm worried about, it's the equipment list. If this newly proposed "glance" command showed equipment and magick effects, etc., that'd be totally cool.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: spicemustflow on June 30, 2009, 08:55:29 AM
How about the simplest possible solution, that people stop regarding 'look' command like 'pin you down and strip search'? On my way to the store, I 'looked' at many people, including a cop who didn't draw his gun at me. He even looked back. He must be up to something.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: AmandaGreathouse on June 30, 2009, 08:57:46 AM
I'm more apt to pay attention to a persons mdesc than their eqiupment list, personally. I'm in favor of the look proposal made b Pale Horse and fifth'd by most everybody.

That being said, I think the glance thing has some merit, but I'd prefer to see it broken down a bit.

glance <soandso>
You see their mdesc.

glance <soandso> assess
all the assess -v info, plus effects and equipment.

Also:

spicemustflow: You hit the nail right on the head.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: SMuz on June 30, 2009, 09:31:25 AM
What.. the.. fuck? I can't even look at people now? I look at things all the time. I might look at your character twice, because I don't want to scroll up or copy your desc to notepad.

You're not special just because I look at you. I look at the NPCs too. I look at the rooms and the items, multiple times.

I don't think this needs a change in code. Looking at people is by far the simplest option. And the echo is fine. I like that the echo is a way of indicating that the character is sentient.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Salt Merchant on June 30, 2009, 09:41:22 AM
What.. the.. fuck? I can't even look at people now? I look at things all the time. I might look at your character twice, because I don't want to scroll up or copy your desc to notepad.

You're not special just because I look at you. I look at the NPCs too. I look at the rooms and the items, multiple times.

I don't think this needs a change in code. Looking at people is by far the simplest option. And the echo is fine. I like that the echo is a way of indicating that the character is sentient.

You don't get it.

I'm not trying to keep my IC identity a secret.

I don't care if someone looks at me if I start talking to them, or if we're alone in a room together, or if my character is doing something to draw attention to himself, or if we ride past each other on the North Road. That's natural enough.

The bee under my bonnet is that even in crowded circumstances like the pub example or out on Caravan Road with huge crowds flowing in every direction, my character will get looked at directly just because he has that magick PC aura that means "you must look at -me- out of the hundreds of people around". Every single time. In fact, there have been times when people have chosen to chase my character down the road through enormous crowds just to get a look at him in particular.

It's that there's no reasonable IC explanation for it. People have tried to explain it as needing to see if there are circumstances they should be aware of but then they don't give unhooded PCs the same treatment. You may claim to be looking at NPCs (very rare that I see this happen) or vNPCs, but you can't reasonably survey a place with potentially hundreds of people present and know all of the details of their appearances and apparel.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: X-D on June 30, 2009, 09:50:38 AM
Of course they do not.

And I think it is somewhat childish thinking to think they should. An unhooded PC is giving information...namely, what they look like. A hooded PC is not. It is that simple. You as the player of the hooded PC have decided to not give up some basic information and the player of the other PC must then use a command to gather more then basic information. 
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Marauder Moe on June 30, 2009, 09:57:27 AM
Again, look doesn't echo when used on vNPCs.  While my PC is walking down the street, yes often he does look at most of the vNPCs there, hooded or otherwise.  Heck, he looks at the NPCs and un-hooded PCs too, but I, as a player, often eschew the coded look command because I've seen that N/PC before and I know what they look like.

Do I really have to emote about every single person, virtual or otherwise, who passes through my character's field of vision?


Just because you've got your hood up, it doesn't mean people aren't allowed to look at you.  (If you don't want people to look at you, hide.)

Just because you've got your hood up, it doesn't mean people can't recognize you.

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean they're not looking at all the vNPCs standing next to you too.

Just because someone doesn't look at an unhooded person, it doesn't mean they don't see them.


Are you really sure we can do better than "get over it"?  Because apparently some people can't even do that...
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Salt Merchant on June 30, 2009, 10:01:57 AM
Of course they do not.

And I think it is somewhat childish thinking to think they should. An unhooded PC is giving information...namely, what they look like. A hooded PC is not. It is that simple. You as the player of the hooded PC have decided to not give up some basic information and the player of the other PC must then use a command to gather more then basic information. 

The bottom line is that this looking occurs largely out of simple OOC curiousity. None of these attempted explanations hold water because of the contradictory behaviors characters show.

Do I have a good solution for it? I don't, and it's obvious that many people who are posting in this thread don't want to even bother to try. So I'll accept WarriorPoet's viewpoint, namely that it just comes with being a PC in a game.

Thanks to all who have posted.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on June 30, 2009, 10:10:04 AM
I stand by the following: make "look" a subtle action like "assess," or just eliminate the echo altogether.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Marauder Moe on June 30, 2009, 10:29:40 AM
Sorry.  If this discussion is heated I think it's because probably just as often as you've had people chase your character through a crowd to look at them, I and others have had people try to kill our characters (it's happened to me more than once) seemingly just in response to a plain look echo.

The title and tone of your posts makes me wonder if you were one of them.

I'm also not particularly opposed to removing or otherwise subduing the look echo.  I'm simply opposed to your accusations that it's poor roleplay to look at people.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Thunkkin on June 30, 2009, 11:21:35 AM
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Third'd

Maybe it would eliminate these discussions.
Fourth'd

If there must be -any- change, this is the one I'd like to see. I know I've suggested it somewhere before.
Fifth'd.

Sorry. Just felt like this should reach the heights of absurdity that it deserves. Also, I do honestly agree.

Sixth'd.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: LoD on June 30, 2009, 11:48:36 AM
The look command is an exchange in information. 

You give me your main description and visible equipment so that I can make a determination for how my character might want to react to your physical appearance, possible mutations, visible tattoos or scars, choice of dress, obvious clan trappings, foreign or domestic items, and the state of your being.

I give you an indication that my character is being actively played, that I have a cursory interest in your character, and that I might be interested in some kind of interaction so that you can make a determination on whether you want to check me out in return, whether your character wants to make a response, pursue some interaction, or ignore me altogether.

What both sides choose to do with this information is entirely up to them, but I think it's important that the information continues to be passed -- whether it's handling messages that are IC, OOC, or both.

-LoD
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Ampere on June 30, 2009, 11:51:45 AM
Didn't we just do this?
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: RogueGunslinger on June 30, 2009, 01:10:57 PM
Didn't we just do this?
'

Like, fuckin' two days ago.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: deviant storm on June 30, 2009, 02:01:18 PM
The look command is an exchange in information. 

You give me your main description and visible equipment so that I can make a determination for how my character might want to react to your physical appearance, possible mutations, visible tattoos or scars, choice of dress, obvious clan trappings, foreign or domestic items, and the state of your being.

I give you an indication that my character is being actively played, that I have a cursory interest in your character, and that I might be interested in some kind of interaction so that you can make a determination on whether you want to check me out in return, whether your character wants to make a response, pursue some interaction, or ignore me altogether.

What both sides choose to do with this information is entirely up to them, but I think it's important that the information continues to be passed -- whether it's handling messages that are IC, OOC, or both.

-LoD

Exactly. It's just part of the game. I look at everyone, hooded or not. They might have changed clothes since I last saw them. They might be new. They might be someone I need icly, to talk to. It happens. I'm not going to stop looking at PCs I'm in this game to rp with other players. Hello, what the fuck is wrong with looking at you as a possible prelude to rp?

This just seems...really odd to be someone's pet peeve. And I like the look echo as it is.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Delstro on June 30, 2009, 02:51:23 PM
I was once traveling through the desert with a group of bynners and some gickers. I didn't look at them until half way through the mission. One of those mother fuckers were all gickered up in gickery way. I missed so many opportunities to be fearful crazy and scared because I didn't look at them. I can't just start playing different now. It wouldn't make sense. Look = good.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Jenred on June 30, 2009, 03:04:13 PM
I know that I -have- had a character killed/attacked for looking at another character and, because I was new, did not know appropriate actions to be taken, or that looking at someone NEEDED follow up actions.

And usually, in multi-player games, an experience that has happened to one person is not a unique and sole-experienced thing. If I've had a character killed/attacked for looking at another PC, then I'm sure others have too.

I've also seen this happen (which is very similar to my experience, but mine was with a noble):

Code: [Select]
The tall muscular man has arrived from the east.
The tall muscular man moves east.
The tall muscular man has arrived from the east.
The tall muscular man moves east.
The red robed templar has arrived from the north.
The tall muscular man has arrived from the east.
The tall muscular man looks at the red-robed templar.
The red-robed templar looks at the tall muscular man -blah blah blah lengthy look emote filled with distaste and scorn-.
The red-robed templar says to the tall muscular man: What do you think you are looking at scum.
The tall muscular man moves east.
The tall muscular man has arrived from the east.
The red robed templar issues an order to a human soldier.
Human soldier subdues the tall muscular man despite his attempts to get away.

It was apparent he was new, just not to the templar, who missed the context of the situation. A received look was perceived as something more then a look. Just because the one echo you receive is of a PC looking at you, doesn't mean NPCs, VNPCs, and other PCs are not.

Which is why I posted earlier I'm in favor of the look echo being removed.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Bogre on June 30, 2009, 05:04:13 PM
The look command is an exchange in information. 

You give me your main description and visible equipment so that I can make a determination for how my character might want to react to your physical appearance, possible mutations, visible tattoos or scars, choice of dress, obvious clan trappings, foreign or domestic items, and the state of your being.

I give you an indication that my character is being actively played, that I have a cursory interest in your character, and that I might be interested in some kind of interaction so that you can make a determination on whether you want to check me out in return, whether your character wants to make a response, pursue some interaction, or ignore me altogether.

What both sides choose to do with this information is entirely up to them, but I think it's important that the information continues to be passed -- whether it's handling messages that are IC, OOC, or both.

-LoD

exactly what i was trying to say
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Versu on July 01, 2009, 12:30:19 AM
In reference to the unseen crowd situation.

What really pissed me off at first, was how the templarate would pick me out of a crowd and go "HEY! Why are you creeping around like a serial killer! Stop or die!"..... which is bullshit, cause the command echo tells me quick clearly, I'm Blending in, not skuling creaping or slinking, I'm looking so damn normal you don't notice me!
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 01, 2009, 01:30:38 AM
I know that I -have- had a character killed/attacked for looking at another character and, because I was new, did not know appropriate actions to be taken, or that looking at someone NEEDED follow up actions.

And usually, in multi-player games, an experience that has happened to one person is not a unique and sole-experienced thing. If I've had a character killed/attacked for looking at another PC, then I'm sure others have too.

I've also seen this happen (which is very similar to my experience, but mine was with a noble):

Code: [Select]
example
It was apparent he was new, just not to the templar, who missed the context of the situation. A received look was perceived as something more then a look. Just because the one echo you receive is of a PC looking at you, doesn't mean NPCs, VNPCs, and other PCs are not.

Which is why I posted earlier I'm in favor of the look echo being removed.

In reference to the unseen crowd situation.

What really pissed me off at first, was how the templarate would pick me out of a crowd and go "HEY! Why are you creeping around like a serial killer! Stop or die!"..... which is bullshit, cause the command echo tells me quick clearly, I'm Blending in, not skuling creaping or slinking, I'm looking so damn normal you don't notice me!

Just like people assume that look initiates interaction because it echoes, they also assume that entering a room does the same because that will also echo.

It's a problem with templars/nobles especially because a lot of times when you opt to ignore them (because it's a big tavern/busy street), they'll ladle on the punishment for disrespect. Same thing if you look (recognize them) but don't do anything else (no respect). The problem becomes when the noble/templar takes the pseudo-interaction of a look, passing-by, or even a lack thereof as an excuse to exercise their IC power. Though this can best be handled with player complaints, IMO.

I've had it happen to me twice, once because I walked through a room with a templar without bowing because I was spamwalking and didn't even see him, and the other because a noble walked into the room and I didn't bow (because there were plenty of vNPCs in the room, and I didn't see a "The haughty, bored noble has arrived from the south, and the waves of commoner filth in the tavern all bow down before his awesomeness."

Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Riev on July 01, 2009, 02:00:46 AM
I've had it happen to me twice, once because I walked through a room with a templar without bowing because I was spamwalking and didn't even see him, and the other because a noble walked into the room and I didn't bow (because there were plenty of vNPCs in the room, and I didn't see a "The haughty, bored noble has arrived from the south, and the waves of commoner filth in the tavern all bow down before his awesomeness."

Well, spamwalking is no excuse for just walking by someone. I think they're fully in their rights to be a dick if you're spamwalking through town and pass them by without even a care.

And so far as the noble thing, if you know its a noble, you make the decision to show respect, or not to. Don't depend on -them- to direct your roleplay.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 01, 2009, 02:38:41 AM
Well, spamwalking is no excuse for just walking by someone. I think they're fully in their rights to be a dick if you're spamwalking through town and pass them by without even a care.

And so far as the noble thing, if you know its a noble, you make the decision to show respect, or not to. Don't depend on -them- to direct your roleplay.

If they can't even be bothered to give a reason as to why they're noticing my character instead of the masses of other travellers who are also virtually spamwalking past them, I don't give a rat's ass. I will simply play it as though my character didn't notice them. It's not hard to come up with an IC excuse to single out a PC, so the "I pick you because you're PC and you echo when you walk" thing isn't good enough in my book.

The problem is when they direct -my- roleplay, and completely ignore the game world when doing so. Given the amount of power that templar/noble PCs have, I don't think it's unfair to hold them to higher standards when it comes to taking the world and vNPCs into account. There are so many ways these characters can interact with commoners besides the "gotcha, you didn't bow" schtick, and it's just a loss for everyone when it happens.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 01, 2009, 02:45:20 AM
In reference to the unseen crowd situation.

What really pissed me off at first, was how the templarate would pick me out of a crowd and go "HEY! Why are you creeping around like a serial killer! Stop or die!"..... which is bullshit, cause the command echo tells me quick clearly, I'm Blending in, not skuling creaping or slinking, I'm looking so damn normal you don't notice me!

Right.

So when can they notice that you are sneaking?

If they catch you sneaking, then you are sneaking.

If you want to blend in, then walk normal and act normal.

If you get caught sneaking, then you are TRYING to blend in, and that equals some form of intent. It's like the dude in the movie who runs out of an alley and merges with the crowd, hands into his pocket, walking a little too fast, looking behind him and to each side, wondering where the bad guy is. That's sneaking, and that's hiding. Particularly hiding.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: SMuz on July 01, 2009, 08:50:03 AM
Sorry.  If this discussion is heated I think it's because probably just as often as you've had people chase your character through a crowd to look at them, I and others have had people try to kill our characters (it's happened to me more than once) seemingly just in response to a plain look echo.

The title and tone of your posts makes me wonder if you were one of them.

I'm also not particularly opposed to removing or otherwise subduing the look echo.  I'm simply opposed to your accusations that it's poor roleplay to look at people.

Yeah, what Moe said. Chasing someone down to get a look is poor RP. Killing someone just for looking at you is equally poor. And I really do get annoyed when someone backstabs me for looking at them.

But if there's OOC curiosity, there's certainly IC curiosity. As for NPCs, people don't really look at them because they've seen them before a few times. But if you're new to the area, people will look at you more. If you're not new, but covering your face, people will look at you to see who's under the hood. If there's a hooded NPC, you'd be sure I'd look at him.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Krath on July 02, 2009, 02:02:35 PM
I look at every pc, everytime I go into a bar,
and will continue to.

Get over it. You know how many times
you probably get looked at IRL in an hour
if your at the bar or local watering hole.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: MarshallDFX on July 02, 2009, 02:27:17 PM
If there is a problem with getting every last detail of your appearance in a look, perhaps the problem is putting every last detail of your appearance in your mdesc.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Comrade Canadia on July 02, 2009, 02:32:59 PM
I can't really say anything that hasn't been said already, but yeah. Look is not a big deal. Not every character meticulously scours your desc and equipment list and then files it away for later use to ruin your plots or whatever. Most people don't care. They're just curious.

A great deal of this game is based on placing trust in other PCs not to 'power play' so that you can all interact realistically. It's -completely reasonable- for me to look at you if you're wearing a hood. It's also reasonable for you to expect me to write it as a quick glance, and then assume that I will treat it like a quick glance. We have commands like this so we can properly interact with each other, and confusing or limiting them is just going to make life difficult.

Beyond that, people look at each other. They do it a lot. If I walk into a bar (which is the most popular example for whatever reason), I actually try to look at everyone. I get an idea of my surroundings. I don't stare at the floor. I also don't stare everyone in the gaze and give them a careful inspection. I just look around. It's impossible for me NOT to see people. Sdescs impart practically nothing, and because of that, use of the look command is completely appropriate.

What I do with the information I get from look is another thing. Is your character in a hood, in a dark corner, throwing up emotes about how hard it is to see his face? Well then as a good roleplayer my character won't recall a huge amount about your guy if asked. If you're up at the bar, making noise, and attracting attention - well then I'll get a closer look at you because you're commanding my gaze. Ideally, I'll be attaching emotes to my look so you impart the correct meaning from what I'm doing.

Removing the echo from look or changing it to the 'you notice' bit is fine by me, however. If anything, the spam of looks is a little much (I don't mind people looking at me when I walk in a room, it's just screen spam I could do without), and it may stop the paranoid types from having a coronary every time somebody glances at them.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 02, 2009, 03:47:15 PM
I can't really say anything that hasn't been said already

Look at your post, you liar.
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Comrade Canadia on July 02, 2009, 04:48:38 PM
I am a lying liar who tells lies of an untruthful nature :( I also should proofread before posting!
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Versu on July 10, 2009, 10:53:00 AM
I think what it comes down to, is when you look at someone, use the () so the other person has some idea how you intend to interact, or some notion of your characters... location? personality? Something?

Sneaky people for certain, I've had templars overlook me in commons simply because I used enough hemotes for them not to care, or they were too lazy or more interested watching somene pilfer around them.

Emoting saves lives.

How do you prove you're not a twink? Effort? Tell a story?

... whatever I'm still a twink. Story time quick before they murder me for being a twink! haha
Title: Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2009, 11:02:45 AM
I usually add something to "flavor" the look Versu, but there are often reasons to -not- do that. The most likely reason is - it takes too long to type it out. Specific circumstances cause that timeliness issue.

In the gaj..a hooded figure comes in from the sleeping chamber and without hesitation, walks north to the road. He comes back in and immediately walks south. You -try- setting up a "look (doing something to catch a glimpse) but this guy just is like on B12 or something. So you think, OOCly, fuck it. And just LOOK at the guy.

This happens all the time. If someone is passing the general area where I am, over and over and over again, I WILL notice his existence. I WILL be able to catch a glimpse of something, other than the fact that he's a hooded figure. Maybe I'll be able to see his boots. Or maybe I'll be able to tell that he has really natty nasty dreads hanging down to his knees. Or maybe I'll be able to tell that he's holding a metal sword.

Happens all the damned time, people going past fast, sometimes THEY will set a look up at you and then go past before you can look at them. At that point, I know they're doing it intentionally. Can't report "Hey a hooded figure spam-looks at everyone and walks away, I have no idea who it is, please tell them to stop being a twink LOL"... so I deal with it ICly instead. And ICly, my character feels like someone else just got the advantage. And that simply isn't acceptable. So she will go out of her way to "look" at him the next time he passes by. If I can throw in an emote, I do. But when people do that kind of shit without giving me enough time to type it out, then fuck it.