Hey folks. We've got a situation where a disgruntled player has been passing themself off as former staff and pretending to give people the "real" information about the game in an attempt to stir up as much trouble as possible. It's complicated by signs indicating that they are either the person who managed to hack into the staff boards for a while or affiliated with them, since they've been salting in enough real information to make themselves seem legitimate.
I don't know what to say about that, except that it's more than a bit discouraging to see someone doing their best to harm the game. It's probably a compliment that they care so much that they're driven to do this, although it's kinda like the old boyfriend who turns into a stalker.
I'd ask you to look at OOC information with a discerning eye before taking it at face value, since apparently this yahoo is trying their best to get people to bite on it.
For what it's worth, I can tell you that throughout the almost two decades I've worked with Armageddon, we've been pretty scrupulous about staffing, and quick to fire people for doing unethical things. I came from a MUD where that wasn't the case, and it's always been a point of pride with me that we work to make sure things are fair for players and staff and that processes are made transparent where we can. Does that mean there's never been issues? Heck no. But when they pop up, they get fixed.
I've posted this here rather than in Staff Announcements because I'm willing to answer some questions about this - I'm not going to go into details of the hack, obviously, but will say that plotlines being discussed on the staff boards have been adjusted, a lot of passwords changed, and so forth. I'm also not willing to discuss circumstances of past staff members leaving staff because I feel that's really their business and not anyone else's. I will answer what I can, though.
Later edit: I don't know for sure this is connected with the hack. If it's not, however, the timing and circumstances seem very odd.
Out of curiosity, are you talking about basic things in the game? Like syntax, and where to go for x item? Or do you mean someone is passing off DEFINITE IC knowledge like "Do this 2 became Sorcaror"?
And are you talking about a 'new' hack to the IDB? Or the one that happened a short while ago?
I'm not talking about game mechanics stuff, but things like "Amos, the tall dark man, is the ghost that has been terrorizing Allanak".
And yes, the one that happened a short while ago. I'd thought we'd pretty much taken care of all that, but found out yesterday that someone has been trying to stir things up and that they're passing themself off as former staff, presumably using info gleaned from the IDB. Why? I have no clue, but I presume it's a complicated form of griefing.
I personally think you may be reading into things a bit too much.
For instance, do you have evidence to back up your point of contention that the person in question who hacked the IDB is the one posing as former staff?
I'm not accusing you of jumping the gun or pointing fingers, but I can tell you with certainty that people pose as staff all the time.
I am thinking of two individuals right now that love to feed others a lot of bullshit, but when you really start questioning them about things their story falls apart, or becomes tangled in a handwoven basket laden with bullshit.
Just saying.
If its someone posing as other people, my finger is at a certain french man whose name sounds like "Mustafa". (kidding)
So, basically, take everyone someone may say in an OOC manner with a grain of salt? Done, and double done. Should be common sense by now.
Sounds like a witch hunt. Too much drama on the boards lately, if you ask me. Is the moon full or something?
How much damage has this person caused? Have whatever damages done been repaired? Are things set back in order? How much more false ooc communication can we expect?
Quote from: Sanvean on April 09, 2009, 10:04:37 PM
I'd ask you to look at OOC information with a discerning eye before taking it at face value, since apparently this yahoo is trying their best to get people to bite on it.
I'd also encourage people to report any abuse of this sort to staff. If someones spreading OOC information, whether false or not it should be quelled.
I'm sure there's plenty of people out there handing out their brand of bullshit. This time we've have issues with people writing in being outraged and then turning out to be going by false info supposedly given them by a recent staff member. Because this is happening now, I want people to be aware that it's going on, so if they get approached they are a little cautious before buying into it.
Damage? Erosion of trust between staff and players is always bad, imo. People should be able to play and have a good time and not worry about anything but that. Staffers should be able to help facilitate game play without having to worry about their plotlines getting skewed.
QuoteSo, basically, take everyone someone may say in an OOC manner with a grain of salt? Done, and double done. Should be common sense by now.
Amen, Riev.
Maybe it's because I've not been playing much or because I talk to a limited amount of Armers OOCly and when we do talk it is very rarely about Armageddon.
People should always tread careful when getting any information that could be considered IC in an OOC fashion. Regardless of what they are told(whether it be falsely propagated rumors or otherwise) they should still never play the actual game with that knowledge in their characters mind and actions, that is just plain bad RP and I would expect nothing less of karma dock or at the very least a stern talking to by the Imms.
I'm really not interested in sorting through all the who said what and tracking down who should get karma docked - I pretty much feel that what goes around comes around, and unscrupulous people end up hurting themselves more than anyone else. My main interest here is preventing more people buying into the BS and getting upset or soured on the game.
I don't think it's the staffs job to be our mother, nor our moral police. IF they find someone intentionally harming the game, said person should -not- receive a warning. They should be banned.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 09, 2009, 11:26:07 PM
I don't think it's the staffs job to be our mother, nor our moral police. IF they find someone intentionally harming the game, said person should -not- receive a warning. They should be banned.
Banning will not stop the individual from disseminating errant information in an attempt to harm the bond between players and staff. If an individual is found harming the game, they are quite quickly dealt with as we see fit. If they are banned, then that is the punishment, but this in no way prevents them from attempting to contact old friends and spew disinformation.
This is what we are attempting to quell.
My suggestion: If you do get your hands on this information for some reason, don't look at it. For me, the more I know about any given game, the more I feel that I've beaten it, and the lower its replay value drops.
Put it on a floppy/CD/zip drive, delete it from your computer, than mail it to yourself in 30 years. By that time, you'll probably have moved on in your life, and the friendly letter in the mail will bring you back!
Is it that tiny alien guy who made the google group that disseminated a bunch of IC info back for more?
That guy was fun.
This makes me sad.
But you have to put yourself in a certain position to receive any kind of IC information anyway. I've been there by accident and ignorance and hated it. It's easier just not to talk to anyone except the people you really trust. And by trust, I don't mean 'trust not to tell on you for chatting IC info' but 'trust not to talk about IC info at all'.
If you think you're getting ahead in the game by talking IC stuff with people, if you think it gives you advantage...you're wrong. All it does it make the game less enjoyable. It bursts the bubble and it can take a long time to get it back.
I think it really sucks that someone is damaging the game in such a way, Sanvean, and it is in no way justifiable.
Having said that, I believe a lot of players have feelings of unrest or discontent due to certain ongoing out of character problems,
and it really doesn't surprise me that someone would lash out in this current climate. I know there has always been some degree
of conflict between the staff and the players at times - you noted this conflict and the perceived rudeness of the staff, /please/
correct me if I'm wrong, in the article you wrote, saying that some staff members continue to relish this image -, but currently it
seems as though it's happening more than usual. They say these things, just like the population ratios in the city states, go in
cycles, and maybe that's it. But there's still some things that, to me, don't smell right.
(I'm sorry I don't have a link to the article, or I would reread it and quote exactly what you said, Sanvean That's the best I can recall from memory, and I apologize if I misquoted you. A link would be great if you or anyone else has one)
Sanvean, it may very well be true that there is no more discontent than before. Unlike Gimf, I am not a data person. It took me more
than once to get through college algebra, so I can't show you any statistics or anything; however, that's the impression I've been left
with after reading various threads that have cropped up over the past month or so. One could say that it is a small yet vocal minority
of people who are stirring up a ruckus - and one could definitely say that about the attack on the boards - but you have to wonder, why
are these people so upset?
Some good, long-term players have quit recently. Other folks are just plain resentful and about events that are going on now or
have happened recently.
And with all these people getting their feelings hurt, there's bound to be some loon who steps over the line and acts out in a way
that will draw the most attention to their discontent.
I think we need to honestly look at ourselves and ask, "Why are people angry enough at the game to risk being banned from it in order to express their discontent?"
Heck, Sanvean... I can name three times myself in the past year when I was really upset with you guys. And it takes a lot to
stir me up, it really does. I bet lots of other folks have had the same happen to them, too. You know, getting their feelings
hurt really bad.
I know you staffers pay money, give time, and try your best to do what's right. But sometimes staff, even high up staff, do
things that just ain't right. I'm not saying that this fella or fellas who have been causing malicious, damaging ruckus were wronged
by the staff, but I bet they sure think they were. It's hard to see any other motivation other than sadism or attention mongering.
Or a combination of two.. or all three.
Like I said, I know all you players and staffers do your damnedest, and that makes me real proud. Real proud to be a part of
a community that has spanned two decades and included thousands of folks. I'm really proud of some of our staff and really
proud of some of our players, but I just know that I'd be more proud if some players wouldn't act out like this, showing their
frustration in harmful ways, and if the some of staff would listen more (I don't think some listen so much as they do arbitrate,
but I damn sure know there's a lot of there who do listen, and that's as awesome as a whale shark. Really, I've always thought
those were really awesome animals).
(http://www.mrnussbaum.com/whaleshark.jpg)
I recently had a row with y'all, but I'm trucking right along to help enrich the game. However, I've got a couple of sore spots
still hanging around, and I know I'm not the only one. Someone going too far and doing something like this is good evidence
of that.
I know you do your damnedest, Sanvean, but I really think if you Overlord guys weighed your opinion on things more, then
maybe bad events like these two here recently wouldn't happen. I say this because the vast majority of staff complaints I
have heard about are about Highlords. And in my experience, it's always those guys who answer the complaint emails or
submitted complaints. I don't think peers monitoring each other is a good idea because for things like a player's hurt feelings
they probably won't rock the boat and disagree with one another. I'm not saying that the Overlords don't monitor.. I'm
absolutely sure they do. But let's face it, there ain't many of you guys.
And I know y'all can't keep up with everyone's hurt feelings. I know a few've the things I've sent to Overlords only has
fallen on deaf ears without even a reply, and this is recently. That's okay, because I know you're all busy. But it just shows how
a person could get frustrated enough to do something like this, especially when they think they're being unfairly treated or
picked on by a Highlord. Even when they might not necesarily be being wronged, they still aren't getting feedback, so it
probably discourages folks.
Please, listen.
I'm not trying to be critical because I appreciate what all is done, has been done, and will be done by the staff. From
the bottom of my heart. I've never played a game so long or loved one so much. But I think there's some problems. Maybe
not real big problems like some folks make them out to be, but problems nonetheless... And I don't think some of them are
handled appropriately.
I dunno what else to say. I'd give you a couple of examples if you want, Sanvean, but such things ain't for public forums. If you want an email, I'll send it.
Anyway... I hope you catch people who are messing with imm boards. To me, that seems about like one of the worst things that can happen, short of getting access to the game or Ginka itself. Disgruntled people who have had their feelings hurt bad enough to quit or just don't care any more aren't justified at all in what they do. But I bet we could keep more folks from becomming disgruntled, if we took extra steps. But those steps won't be easy, and I know there's not a manual on how to keep folks from being that way. And I sure ain't smart enough to write one.
Sincerely,
Kronibas
That's the longest post I've read on these forums... I agree with alot of what Kronibas just said.
Quote from: Kronibas on April 10, 2009, 07:53:13 AM
I think we need to honestly look at ourselves and ask, "Why are people angry enough at the game to risk being banned from it in order to express their discontent?"
These people need to step back and consider:
A: Whether their sense of entitlement is justified.
and
B: Whether or not it's healthy to be reacting so strongly to a game.
These attitudes come up all the time in online communities, and I've suffered from it myself from time to time. MUDs demand a level of commitment that can be extremely unhealthy, and it's very easy to lose perspective. I really think that people that feel depressed or enraged about a game need to step back and think about what they're doing.
I'm not trying to say that the game is perfect, but that the reactions of players are often highly disproportionate to the importance of the game.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 09, 2009, 10:34:10 PM
Is the moon full or something?
Wouldn't you know, it was a full moon...
I've never found the staff to be anything but fair, even when it has negatively impacted me.
People who choose to communicate OOC'ly outside of these boards are opening themselves up to this. While I agree with emailing the staff about it, I feel that being upset with the staff about OOC communication outside the GBD is hypocritical of them. The staff does a good job of moderation here. Venture outside the gates into the wastes at your own risk.
Quote from: staggerlee on April 10, 2009, 12:47:21 PM
B: Whether or not it's healthy to be reacting so strongly to a game.
However, people are investing so much time on it. Nobody would be reacting to an arcade game this way. But when we are talking about armageddon, each character is taking so much time, that when you think there is an injustice regarding your character, it is all that time that is being threatened, not a simple game. Especially long livers, it might take away months, even years of investment, all that time built up in the game.
Quote
Anyway... I hope you catch people who are messing with imm boards.
We did shortly after it occurred.
Quote from: Ghost on April 10, 2009, 12:55:35 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on April 10, 2009, 12:47:21 PM
B: Whether or not it's healthy to be reacting so strongly to a game.
However, people are investing so much time on it. Nobody would be reacting to an arcade game this way. But when we are talking about armageddon, each character is taking so much time, that when you think there is an injustice regarding your character, it is all that time that is being threatened, not a simple game. Especially long livers, it might take away months, even years of investment, all that time built up in the game.
Hate to parallel WoW here, but if my roommate lost his 80 Paladin, decked out in some of the best gear of the game, due to some bug and blizz reps weren't friendly, kind, or supporting in every way, he'd probably bomb Blizzard headquarters.
Don't really know what this adds to the discussion.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 10, 2009, 01:00:38 PM
Quote from: Ghost on April 10, 2009, 12:55:35 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on April 10, 2009, 12:47:21 PM
These people need to step back and consider:
A: Whether their sense of entitlement is justified.
and
B: Whether or not it's healthy to be reacting so strongly to a game.
These attitudes come up all the time in online communities, and I've suffered from it myself from time to time. MUDs demand a level of commitment that can be extremely unhealthy, and it's very easy to lose perspective. I really think that people that feel depressed or enraged about a game need to step back and think about what they're doing.
I'm not trying to say that the game is perfect, but that the reactions of players are often highly disproportionate to the importance of the game.
However, people are investing so much time on it. Nobody would be reacting to an arcade game this way. But when we are talking about armageddon, each character is taking so much time, that when you think there is an injustice regarding your character, it is all that time that is being threatened, not a simple game. Especially long livers, it might take away months, even years of investment, all that time built up in the game.
Hate to parallel WoW here, but if my roommate lost his 80 Paladin, decked out in some of the best gear of the game, due to some bug and blizz reps weren't friendly, kind, or supporting in every way, he'd probably bomb Blizzard headquarters.
Don't really know what this adds to the discussion.
Yes. The excessively strong reactions are related to the monstrous time commitment these games require. It's an understandable reaction, but I covered that in my post. ;)
Anyway. I don't want to derail this into a debate about what is or isn't healthy or normal, that's up to the individual.
My point was in the last line.
Armageddon players are not the healthiest people, mentally-wise, that I know.
You're asking a lot, staggerlee..
I think the main point of this thread is that when someone comes to you, trying to pass themselves off as former staff and/or using OOC information to stir up anger at the staff - they may be someone VERY malicious. As in, not just a rightfully angered player, but rather someone who is hacking the GDB.
One shouldn't listen to these people anyway (no OOC discussions of IC stuffs!), but this thread serves as an extra warning. I don't think staff shared this information in order to start the monthly "veterans are leaving!" thread. (Not that we can't discuss that - but is this really the thread for it?).
I would like to know what former staffer's name is being used when they're pretending to be said former staffer so if I hear anything I'll know it's them.
Quote from: jhunter on April 10, 2009, 01:24:26 PM
I would like to know what former staffer's name is being used when they're pretending to be said former staffer so if I hear anything I'll know it's them.
If you are hearing something from someone saying they are staff and it is not from
A send in-game
An e-mail from a staff e-mail address @ armageddon.org
A response to a request in the request queue
A post on the GDB/blog/etc from someone with a staff account
then it is not officially from a staff member.
Good point, heh.
Quote from: Malken on April 10, 2009, 01:21:55 PM
Armageddon players are not the healthiest people, mentally-wise, that I know.
You're asking a lot, staggerlee..
I disagree. I have seen a great number of excellent things come out of the minds of the players of Armageddon. I have seen several of them grow up from high schoolers to young college kids (usually they fade out for a year or so to come back) and even a few have become family members who truly care and do their best to raise their children in a solid, loving environment. We have students, truckers, cops, military members, tech geeks, government contractors, doctors, and at least one scientist in our midst.
That's a pretty damn healthy cross-section of humanity. I'd say by and large we are an extremely high functioning and intelligent community, Malken. Every group has a bad apple or two, sometimes a dozen, but that doesn't change the fact that most of our players do their damnedest to get along in real life and make life good for the people around them.
If our players were a bunch of degenerate a-holes, there is no way an APM could work. There would be fist fights or even stabbings each year, because most of the Armageddon players have very strong personalities. The same holds true with staff.
This problem is caused by one member who, for some reason, feels jilted, cheated, or maybe, to quote Batman, just wants to watch the world burn. Do we know the motivation? No. Do we know that this is an abnormality? Absolutely.
This purpose of the post is simply to inform and caution.
I'd like to think that most of those who participate in armageddon have the games best interest at heart. They understand that the time, effort, and energy that they put in, does not always neccessarily return rewards. However the rewards when they do come are sufficient at the personal level that it's worth it for each participant in that participant's eyes. That the game, and it's participants are not perfect entities, and that compromise, acceptance, tolerance, and trust are the base tenets that everything has to be worked forward from. It's not always easy, but it's doable with a mature and reasonable audience. This contributes to keeping the game healthy, even through rough spots and disagreements, not unsimilar to any relationship. (This one just has a lot more participants)
The reality of the situation is not every participant is like this. One can guess as to why, how, history, morals, judgements, attitude, incentive, opinion, and so on, but that's a discussion of human nature and not specific to this game. I'm sorry that this is the case, but I also accept it, and do what I can to make sure the game flourishes with what we have. Resentment, anger, frustration, lack of patience, jealousy, ignorance, lack of compassion, disappointment, disagreement are just a few of the negative emotions or actions that can result from participating in armageddon, and like the human condition, while we might be able to better approach some, they aren't something that can be solved. We can focus on the positive emotions and actions to the best our ability as well, while attempting to better approach the negative ones. This serves us all.
Those that continue to choose to disregard these general ideas, but instead choose paths of hate, destruction, backstabbing, lying, inflammatory actions, slander, or take negative actions directly against the game and it's community do not serve us as individuals or as a community.
Even with differing perception and subjectivity, they're two pretty distinct sides.
Again, the point of the thread is to inform and caution.
Well, that's quite true, Shalooonsh, I should have added a :D because I wasn't being serious. Armageddon certainly wouldn't be what it is now if it wasn't for a bunch of great players and Staffers.
We do tend to take things to the extreme, often, though, and I know from my past, when I was heavily into the OOC scene, that people were being way too serious and quick to judge the Staffers.
Conspiracy theories are certainly not lacking when it comes to Armageddon.
Even when proven wrong, they would still hold a grudge against a Staff or two.
I know that Staffers have always been fair to me, and still continue to do so (even when sometimes my wishes are answered a little abruptly, but, hey, I can certainly guess what you all have to put up with daily).
Being somewhat cynical and innately suspicious, I would do more than take OOC information about the inner workings of Arm with a grain of salt; it would more likely be with a generous dosing of fungicide. I've seen this kind of stuff happen in other games and, invariably, the individuals claiming to be bringing forth the truth in order to save the game are in reality operating with their own agendas and with their own axes to grind.
Beyond my cynicism, there is another big reason why I would discount information being spread about Armageddon staff in particular. I trust the Arm staff implicitly. Unreservedly. Yes, they do make mistakes as individuals or sometimes even collectively. They are human and it happens. I have faith however that they also can see when they've screwed up, take ownership of mistakes and then set about righting them. The Arm staff is probably among the more mature game staff in the Internet (mature being a measure not of years but behaviour).
I've only had one moment of ever doubting their motives and intentions. When Sanvean announced that Wizards of the Coast had bought Arm and that it would become pay-to-play, I hated her. I hated Vendyra when it was revealed that she had written the false press releases. I hated them all. **
** Despite the intensity of my emotions which ran the gamut from anger to despair to a sense of betrayal, when they passed I had to concede it was the best April Fool's prank EVAR, thereby proving once again that Arm staff are unparalleled.
Quote from: Medena on April 10, 2009, 03:04:18 PM
Being somewhat cynical and innately suspicious...
[snip]
Beyond my cynicism, there is another big reason why I would discount information being spread about Armageddon staff in particular. I trust the Arm staff implicitly. Unreservedly.
Does not compute.
QuoteWe can focus on the positive emotions and actions to the best our ability as well, while attempting to better approach the negative ones. This serves us all.
And some of our players, Dakurus, write self help books. But seriously, that's the most Zen thing I've read all day long. And I've read some pretty Zen stuff today.
-Fixed by Loon to place credit where due.
Quote from: Malken on April 10, 2009, 01:52:54 PM
Conspiracy theories are certainly not lacking when it comes to Armageddon.
It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately.
Any game where secrecy seems to take priority over just about every other facet of the game itself is going to have those sort of problems. Staff demand 100% transparency from players and offer none in return, therefore people are always going to want to bridge that gap. Not even necessarily out of malicious intent, but to prove that they can and just to know what's going on behind the iron curtain, so to speak.
And unfortunately, the imms' response probably only encourages the individuals in question.
For example, take these recent events. Sanvean said in her post that "plotlines have been adjusted."
In this way, the person who has been spreading this information has already accomplished more and made more changes to the gameworld than many of the people playing the game. When was the last time a PC of yours altered worldwide events in such a way? I doubt many people can say "recently" if not "ever."
The point I'm trying to make is that banning people and setting up finger-pointing afterward isn't really going to fix things. As long as the collective secrets of the code, the staff, and the game history are held up over the playerbase's heads like the holy grail of Armageddon, people are going to go after it through illegitimate means.
/derail
Quote from: Fathi on April 10, 2009, 09:01:12 PM
As long as the collective secrets of the code, the staff, and the game history are held up over the playerbase's heads like the holy grail of Armageddon, people are going to go after it through illegitimate means.
Quote from: Fathi on April 10, 2009, 09:01:12 PM
Quote from: Malken on April 10, 2009, 01:52:54 PM
Conspiracy theories are certainly not lacking when it comes to Armageddon.
It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately.
Any game where secrecy seems to take priority over just about every other facet of the game itself is going to have those sort of problems. Staff demand 100% transparency from players and offer none in return, therefore people are always going to want to bridge that gap. Not even necessarily out of malicious intent, but to prove that they can and just to know what's going on behind the iron curtain, so to speak.
And unfortunately, the imms' response probably only encourages the individuals in question.
For example, take these recent events. Sanvean said in her post that "plotlines have been adjusted."
In this way, the person who has been spreading this information has already accomplished more and made more changes to the gameworld than many of the people playing the game. When was the last time a PC of yours altered worldwide events in such a way? I doubt many people can say "recently" if not "ever."
The point I'm trying to make is that banning people and setting up finger-pointing afterward isn't really going to fix things. As long as the collective secrets of the code, the staff, and the game history are held up over the playerbase's heads like the holy grail of Armageddon, people are going to go after it through illegitimate means.
/derail
That post right there? I'd fuck it.
And yet without secrecy this would just be roleplay enforced WoW.
We are caught in a delicious Catch-22.
Didnt read the replies, just the original post. And my only constructive commentary is something like this
"This is ... silly"
ambigious, but ... well, the whole thing is ... weird.
Quote from: Yam on April 10, 2009, 11:08:31 PM
And yet without secrecy this would just be roleplay enforced WoW.
We are caught in a delicious Catch-22.
I accidently clicked a WoW bookmark earlier, and this is exactly what went through my head. Spooky.
Quote from: Malken on April 10, 2009, 01:52:54 PM
I know that Staffers have always been fair to me, and still continue to do so (even when sometimes my wishes are answered a little abruptly, but, hey, I can certainly guess what you all have to put up with daily).
Until December of 07, I would have said the same thing, Malken. And that's from someone who's been playing since 99.
But then some unfair stuff went down that was the result of obvious OOC bias, and that has caused a lot of trouble for me ever since.
All it takes is one Imm, Malken, to get pissed off at you and screw you. You may have rejected their romantic advances when they were a player, you may have PK'd one of their PCs, or perhaps one of the PCs of their good friends. You could have killed their character's love interest. Who knows? I don't think most people develop these sort of long standing grudges. But I believe that many are capable, and I'm not shy enough to admit that Armageddon is not immune to this sort of behavior.
We all have flaws and carrying grudges ranks up there with one of the top ones that people develop. That's applicable anywhere, including ArmageddonMUD.
I'm glad that you have enjoyed a game experience completely free of OOC bias from the staff, Malken. I bet many, many people have.
But some people get the shaft bro. That's cool and all; you just have to roll with the punches and do the best you can, if you love ]
the game enough. I'm just saying, some people aren't as fortunate as you.
Quote from: Nyr on April 10, 2009, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: jhunter on April 10, 2009, 01:24:26 PM
I would like to know what former staffer's name is being used when they're pretending to be said former staffer so if I hear anything I'll know it's them.
If you are hearing something from someone saying they are staff and it is not from
A send in-game
An e-mail from a staff e-mail address @ armageddon.org
A response to a request in the request queue
A post on the GDB/blog/etc from someone with a staff account
then it is not officially from a staff member.
I'm confused why anyone would believe anyone claiming a staff member from a non-staff member account. I thought that Arm players, of all people, would be immensely skeptical of any phishing.
Quote from: SMuz on April 11, 2009, 04:37:19 AM
I'm confused why anyone would believe anyone claiming a staff member from a non-staff member account. I thought that Arm players, of all people, would be immensely skeptical of any phishing.
People are more likely to believe information that they WANT to believe. Such a scam offers forbidden information, highly-sought secrets, plus a validation of dark sinister OOC plots and biases that a player may have long "suspected." Fairly tempting.
Also, I have no idea what some of the posts in this thread are about. They seem to be saying that there's too much secrecy? What would be the solution? Posting all the secrets would make the game more fun? Really?
That would make me all the more suspicious. Why would an imm tell me a IG secret? Everyone other than the most noobish players know that the imms are tricky brainz eaters.
Quote from: Thunkkin on April 11, 2009, 07:52:27 AM
Also, I have no idea what some of the posts in this thread are about. They seem to be saying that there's too much secrecy? What would be the solution? Posting all the secrets would make the game more fun? Really?
If that's what you inferred from my post, then I guess I'd better take a communications class or two.
The point I was trying to make is that it isn't staff actions or the inherent douchebaggy nature of certain players that leads to stuff like this happening. It's the nature of the game and the culture the game cultivates.
Quote from: Fathi on April 10, 2009, 09:01:12 PM
Quote from: Malken on April 10, 2009, 01:52:54 PM
Conspiracy theories are certainly not lacking when it comes to Armageddon.
It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately.
Any game where secrecy seems to take priority over just about every other facet of the game itself is going to have those sort of problems. Staff demand 100% transparency from players and offer none in return, therefore people are always going to want to bridge that gap. Not even necessarily out of malicious intent, but to prove that they can and just to know what's going on behind the iron curtain, so to speak.
And unfortunately, the imms' response probably only encourages the individuals in question.
For example, take these recent events. Sanvean said in her post that "plotlines have been adjusted."
In this way, the person who has been spreading this information has already accomplished more and made more changes to the gameworld than many of the people playing the game. When was the last time a PC of yours altered worldwide events in such a way? I doubt many people can say "recently" if not "ever."
The point I'm trying to make is that banning people and setting up finger-pointing afterward isn't really going to fix things. As long as the collective secrets of the code, the staff, and the game history are held up over the playerbase's heads like the holy grail of Armageddon, people are going to go after it through illegitimate means.
/derail
I read this post several times, and I have chosen to debate it. Not because it is wrong, but because it is thoughtful, and I disagree with a few points. I do agree the secrets of the game have a powerful allure, and are as tempting as any forbidden fruit. Unfortunately, "Having a thing is often not so pleasant as wanting a thing. It is not logical, but it often true." - Spok,
Amok Time.Where I challenge the above quote is the claim that "secrecy seems to take priority over just about every other facet of the game." I know to a player it could seem that way, but I know that is not true. I think the highest priority for the game (from the staff perspective) is to create an involving, detailed, cohesive story. Not revealing every method to achieve this is sometimes a necessary tool. Secrecy is only an ingredient, although sometimes mandatory. It is not the goal. And, from what I've seen, secrecy is only used where necessary. It has no place at all unless it is somehow serving the above purpose. I can think of nothing that is withheld just to be withheld. In every instance I can see, anything that is not openly distributed is only "kept in shadow" for the player's benefit. In every instance I can find, the use of secrecy is only to enhance enjoyment and the thrill of discovery. I know that I
want people to find the goodies I have hid for them. Really. I want them to have that "wow".
I also disagree about transparency. Staff do not demand 100% transparency from players. I think it makes it better if your character's actions, desires and motivations
are transparent to staff. Less for us, but more for the player. It helps us have the environment react more appropriately. If your character's goals are inscrutable, you can't expect anyone staff side to consider how they might appropriately succeed or what path might lead you there. Also, there are many, many, many tools to make staff activities more transparent to the players. Weekly updates, game changes log, player-staff meeting. This forum. Most every other area of staff activity that is not transparent is again done for the benefit of the player's enjoyment. The downside for staff of such efforts is that they might be completely invisible, probably unrecognized and never acknowledged.
And the final point for debate would be the impact that players have on the game-path. This one I really sympathize with. Although many, many characters do not significantly alter the big story arcs or change the world in noticeable ways, I think it is fair to say that a surprisingly large number of characters have had drastic and unforeseen impacts. And here is the sad part: without their player likely ever understanding it. And we don't tell them because they
might find out through the ripple effects still going on. And no one wants to ruin that stunning, jaw-dropping "wow" moment for them.
None of this is official staff opinion. It is just Tzu.
Quote from: Fathi on April 11, 2009, 08:15:27 AM
The point I was trying to make is that it isn't staff actions or the inherent douchebaggy nature of certain players that leads to stuff like this happening. It's the nature of the game and the culture the game cultivates.
I get the impression from the OP that this situation is more malicious than your run of the mill IC info gossip, though. Which doesn't seem like something the game cultivates.
I think if people realized it was a game you can not win
it would clear up a lot of problems like this.
Quote from: Krath on April 13, 2009, 11:15:30 AM
I think if people realized it was a game you can not win
it would clear up a lot of problems like this.
You can win it and many have done so in the past.. Saying that you can not 'win' Armageddon is wrong.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on April 10, 2009, 01:42:14 PM
If our players were a bunch of degenerate a-holes, there is no way an APM could work. There would be fist fights or even stabbings each year, because most of the Armageddon players have very strong personalities. The same holds true with staff.
Heh heh heh, I just had an amazing mental image of all the Arm players in a huge face-off, Sha on one side with the staff, and the players on the the other......Kinda like a royal rumble....with bone Ken-tar knives and Thuja-hilted war axes
Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2009, 11:49:40 AM
Quote from: Krath on April 13, 2009, 11:15:30 AM
I think if people realized it was a game you can not win it would clear up a lot of problems like this.
You can win it and many have done so in the past.. Saying that you can not 'win' Armageddon is wrong.
Winning a game usually requires the game to come to an end, or to restart, neither of which happen in Armageddon. You may "win" individual encounters and find success in achieving your character's goals or forwarding your character's agendas, but when your character is dead or stored, the game persists. And because the game is perpetual in nature and larger than any one person, there is no winning -- there is only participating.
The problem with considering Armageddon a game to be won is that you oftentimes generate an artificial "us vs. them" mentality between fellow players, staff, and even with more abstract concepts -- like game policy or code. Unfortunately, the vehicle that helps people transcend this "winning" attitude to the next level is often fueled solely by personal experience, and there are precious few shortcuts to help players accelerate their understanding of how their actions, choices, and decisions impact the overall game.
There's a difference between the inherent missteps all of us will take during our tenure with Armageddon and the purposeful steps a minority will take because of malcontent, misunderstandings, or spite. I think that the best method for enjoying the game is to forgive yourself (and others) their innocent missteps, while avoiding the latter crowd at all costs.
-LoD
Addressing a few things:
QuoteOriginal post about taking caution when hearing information from posing staff.
This is kinda a gimme and kinda not. Yes, alot of players are old enough and wise enough to realize the merit/peril of receiving information. At the same time, there are younger players, foreign players, etc, who might not be as apt to sift through what they hear or are told for truthfulness and accuracy. And also, this person wouldn'tve succeeded if there weren't people out there who actively WANTED information about the game, which leads into the next point.
QuoteSecrecy, mystery of the game etc.
Im glad this is here. Someone mentioned it being held over everyone like a holy grail. And I'm glad. The level of mystery still existent in this game for someone like myself, who has been playing almost 8 years, worked on staff, etc, is still amazing. Even as a former staff it is possible to still discover new things because they are always changing. If at any time I felt that I had seen it all, done it all, played all the concepts I wanted to, I'd be very upset. The nature of this game's allure is the mystery - of everything from areas, to skills, to plotlines. Unfortunately the more secretive the more areas for abuse, because even something as little as IC info in a mostly irrelevant plot is enough to ruin the game experience for one or two people involved in it.
QuoteWinning the game
This goes with something that Richard Bartle wrote about MMO players a way back, and that is that they can be categorized into a meld of
Achievers, Explorers, Socializers and Killers. And then further broken down into
Friend, Griefer, Hacker, Networker, Opportunist, Planner, Politician, Scientist. Depending on your "mode" of play, the game is indeed winnable, to a degree. You have fully-branched maxxed every class. You have seen -everything-. You have been able any given point to kill anything that exists in the game. But as LoD said, its about achieving personal goals. You have "beat the game" in your own set goal. And that is usually when people than retire and take a break.
QuoteOOC Bias
This exists everywhere. Bias that is. From work, to hobbies, to games. At some point, you will be in a position, with someone that has a lower opinion of you for whatever reason. Past actions of yours, race, gender, whatever. And that is unfortunate, but its an aspect of life. I believe that the staff here, being a body of people and not just an individual, are pretty good at squashing this when it arises. Yes, it might fuck over the current PC, but I believe this is such a small occurrence that its definitely an anomaly and not the run of the mill. If it is really that rampant of a thing that is occurring to you, I say first - Your still here, so enjoyment must outweigh what is happening to you, or secondly - you are making it a bigger deal than it is, which is usually the case, at least with similar problems in real life.
Like with customers at stores. I had one before that would come in and try to catch us in pricing errors after being slighted for one legitimately that went past an employee. We apologized when it occurred but then they made it into a problem, and let a small thing dominate their life, bringing it up to people in the parking lot, calling the store, etc. It was real-life griefing. And I think alot of people do that here. They let one incident in the past absorb their experience - project it, so that it seems like something that they are not a minority in, and then try to rally people to their cause with a self-aggrandized problem.
So to conclude. I believe this is a decent product, for a free, pretty unique game. Its unfortunate that people become so attached that they have a need to negatively impact other players. But for someone to perpetuate a scheme this large, or large -enough- to warrant this type of response, there are definitely unmentioned aspects in play... no player knows how to contact me OOC, except staff. I dont go to any OOC chat-rooms. So for players to be affected by this, they had to be out there, available, in the first place. And usually players with that much noticeability, have already been staff, or know just about as much to be anyways.
Vague is good, when dealing with problems like this. But this almost seems like an irrelevant article to post, even the original post says - not going to talk about the hack, circumstances, etc. And most people, at least who responded, seem to be out of the loop. So im not really sure what the intent was here, but the conversation has definetely gone far astray from what happened.
Confucius say "If random person contact you and say they are ex-staff-member, they are now probably slash-member or piercing-member!"
Quote from: Kol on April 13, 2009, 11:58:33 AM
Heh heh heh, I just had an amazing mental image of all the Arm players in a huge face-off, Sha on one side with the staff, and the players on the the other......Kinda like a royal rumble....with bone Ken-tar knives and Thuja-hilted war axes
We'd win, since we outnumber them 10 to 1. It'd be mob rule. And even if we didn't outnumber them, we'd win. Cuz everyone knows I'm ninja.
It always sucks to hear about someone screwing with the MUD or GDB in a malicous manner. It bothers me when people don't have the self-restraint to resist the urge to do something destructive out of anger.
I've been upset with the game for a while now and haven't been playing, just like many other players. At the same time I've tried to approach my thoughts on the community with the "Zen" aspect in mind. This way of thought has helped to remind me everything that Arm, a freaking game, has done so much to shape my life. Without the influence I have received from other Armageddon players over the past nine or ten years, it is quite possible that I would be a different person than I am now.
It is impossible to notice that every community has problems. For what it is worth, the Armageddon family is certainly far superior to any other online community that I've ever participated in. While we may irritate the piss out of one another with our strong, conflicting views we are also (usually) pretty damn mature about the way we argue and discuss opposing ideas. Sure some posts on the GDB can be quite asinine, but for a greater part it is not filled with the LOLz and infantile garbage that plague many corners of the interweb nets.
I agree with what Shaloonsh said about APM's. I have been to many player gatherings and I have had a great time at all of them. Armageddon has, hands down, some of the best people I've ever met among its ranks. I am always moved by the creativity, selflessness, and good-nature I see in most of the players I meet across this country, and the world.
Our playerbase spans many race, religion, income, and professional backgrounds yet manages to get along. We are an amazing group with a huge collection of talents. I may want to throttle one or two of you sometimes, but when the zombies come I'm going to gang up with the rest of you folks. We can suvive an Armageddon.
Did you post in the wrong thread?
Quote from: Eloran on April 19, 2009, 06:31:14 PM
Did you post in the wrong thread?
I think he's posted in the right thread. Look a few pages back, you'll see what he's reffering to with Shaloooooonsh posting.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on April 10, 2009, 01:42:14 PM
I have seen a great number of excellent things come out of the minds of the players of Armageddon. I have seen several of them grow up from high schoolers to young college kids (usually they fade out for a year or so to come back) and even a few have become family members who truly care and do their best to raise their children in a solid, loving environment. We have students, truckers, cops, military members, tech geeks, government contractors, doctors, and at least one scientist in our midst.
That's a pretty damn healthy cross-section of humanity. I'd say by and large we are an extremely high functioning and intelligent community, Malken. Every group has a bad apple or two, sometimes a dozen, but that doesn't change the fact that most of our players do their damnedest to get along in real life and make life good for the people around them.
If our players were a bunch of degenerate a-holes, there is no way an APM could work. There would be fist fights or even stabbings each year, because most of the Armageddon players have very strong personalities. The same holds true with staff.
This problem is caused by one member who, for some reason, feels jilted, cheated, or maybe, to quote Batman, just wants to watch the world burn. Do we know the motivation? No. Do we know that this is an abnormality? Absolutely.
I'm sensing a possible virus. I don't recommend downloading that.
Dude, just post it. We've got plenty of critiques on the board anyways. One more isn't going to offend us.
I scanned the file using the website http://www.kaspersky.com/scanforvirus
It checked clean.
I'm sorry that you've had such a bad experience with the game. I'm still relatively new, and my experiences have been pretty good so far. I can honestly say I know "the other side" very well, as I had to deal with an unfortunate fiasco involving my supposed cheating on an old Neverwinter Nights server.
My opinion of the administration in any organization is that they are there for a reason. They are people trusted by the organization's founders with the various tasks given to them. True, there are the occasional rotten apples, but they shouldn't dissuade you to quit the game as a whole. On the above server, I was able to get myself unbanned by appealing to the next-highest chain of command. I explained the situation, and they looked into it.
If I thought the staff were picking on me in a bad way, I'd confront them about it. If things didn't change, I'd contact their superior about it. If things still weren't in the clear, I'd talk to -their- superior, etc. If I run out of superiors, then I might think about leaving.
Life is life. Sometimes it gives you a nice warm shower. Sometimes you realize that shower is urine.
QuoteIt makes me feel sick when I try to abide by the rules yet I get screwed over anyways.
This is how I feel sometimes. :-( I feel like I can get more done and give more back to the MUD by skittering around the rules, and not bothering to try and get staff approval. But I don't do that because I have this thing where I follow the rules.
Unless it'll get me killed IRL. Then I ignore the rules. ;-)
Man, I'd hate to be an experienced player here. It's just a game. I'm perfectly happy with not winning :P Enjoy it.
I have a lot of love/hate for parts of this game, but I can't be bothered to mention it. Meh. It's fun if you don't try to win it. Just sit back and enjoy it. If you're twinking out and using OOC measures, you're just messing yourself up and I think this fella should be left to punish them.
I thought I'd heard that staff are not allowed to play templars, and, these days, are required to store their current character when they become staff. Not that they can't continue to create and play new PCs, including potentially powerful ones.
It sounds to me like Allegria/Delarak was mistaking, for instance, "an NPC red robe animated by Halaster" with "a PC templar apped and played by Halaster." Though it could be that policies have changed since his experiences here.
I read that entire thing, and all I saw was a lot of vitriol and bitterness... I'm still not sure what the point was.
Frankly, after way too many years and hours put into these silly little games, that kind of rant is old news. The number one reason these things happen is people's attitudes; as a whole that will never change, but individuals can learn to avoid bitterness and in doing so extend their enjoyment of the game.
It's really sad seeing people that enjoy a game so much becoming so jaded and nasty about. I'll be playing the game as long as it's fun, as often as it's fun. (Time providing.)
Quote from: brytta.leofa on April 24, 2009, 10:20:00 AM
I thought I'd heard that staff are not allowed to play templars, and, these days, are required to store their current character when they become staff. Not that they can't continue to create and play new PCs, including potentially powerful ones.
It sounds to me like Allegria/Delarak was mistaking, for instance, "an NPC red robe animated by Halaster" with "a PC templar apped and played by Halaster." Though it could be that policies have changed since his experiences here.
This is true. We require storage before activating a staff account, and no staff is allowed to play templars, or even nobles or senior agentry. These are things that we leave in the realm of players so they can take the game in a direction that they desire.
This has not always been how things were, however, and while I am not familiar with the particular instance referenced in Delerak's self-proclaimed 'rant' (and I will not be reading it on the site posted), there could be some merit in the words.
It's a sad thing that when something you love doesn't love you in the way you desire it to, that love can turn to hate and bitterness, and I believe this is what happened in Delerak's case. I am at least partially familiar with what happened, and this is, in my eyes, what happened here.
The not-so-amusing thing here is that there was never any intention of 'screwing over' Delerak. This perception is common to people who do not get what they want and are not willing to accept their own responsibility in the matter. If something does not go your way, obviously there is a conspiracy against you.
Quote from: Allegria on April 24, 2009, 03:23:44 AM
Quote from: Jingo on April 24, 2009, 03:15:12 AM
Dude, just post it. We've got plenty of critiques on the board anyways. One more isn't going to offend us.
I try not to participate in Arm's community as much as possible. Only posting this because a few people asked me on aim to show a different point of view to people.
You have a strange definition of 'try not to participate' that, I believe, varies wildly in meaning from what I have experienced in my own real life.
While the rant from Delerak is pretty one-sided, I don't see a reason to remove it (thanks to those of you that reported it, however). I have checked with another HL+ staff member before posting this (generally, we don't post player account notes except in very specific circumstances).
Account notes from one of the older accounts:
Quote== >Player: <redacted> Email: <redacted>
Comments:
Banned for being a dipshit from hell. Long story. Ask, if interested.
Another one of the player's account notes:
QuotePlayer: <redacted> Email: <redacted>
Comments:
Used to be <redacted>, then <redacted>. Banned twice before. Watch carefully.
Banned from the T'zai Byn.
Complete and utter twink. Never allow a special role, in anything, ever.
Removed race elf. He is incapable of playing one.
One of the worst players I've ever watched.
Removed dwarf, plays without focus. Jul 21, 2000
Allowing him access to the elf race option again. Watch. 000821
Banned from Kurac for ooc abuse. Still banned from Byn. 11/7/00
Removed elf option after recent game abuse and rudeness to staff. 001113
link redacted
The above is labelled: Welcome to the first ever Cheaters Discussion Board for ArmageddonMUD
Accordingly, banning for one month. 11/23/00
You know, he's kinda epic in his badness. He's...just...so....clueless.
Board now at: link redacted
I am unbanning. If he misbehaves, please inform me.
Currently unbanned from the Byn, until the moment he slips, as he knows. 01/19/01
Giving him dwarf and elf back for now.
Seems to have a desire to overcome past history. Would like to slowly give him the opportunity. 10/03/04
Banning so he can make a new account. 10/04/04
New account is <redacted>. 10/04/04
Newest account's account notes:
QuotePlayer: <redacted> Email: <redacted>
Comments:
Previously account <redacted>. 10/04/04
Little rude in email when told his desired desc change wasn't acceptable. 10/16/04
Good RP with Nilazi dagger. Commented. 11/11/04
Account <redacted> will be running <redacted>'s brother - cleared with the mud account. 12/18/04
Requested <redacted>'s storage, do not unstore. 1/22/05
deleted a discouraging gdb post by him, nothing major, he was notified 5/22/05
In his response: "I can apologize if you'd like" 5/22/05
Complaint recevied from another player about OOC communication in IMs. 11/03/05
Requested and received account notes. 11/08/05
Removed post that seemed to stray into the territory of flamebait from the GDB. Emailed player. 11/19/05
Posted an active soldier list minus a PC stored the same day on the GDB, with no possible way for his character or any
other to know the other was missing. 11/27/05
After getting in a disagreement with staff, he orchestrated the suicide of his PC Argyle because he didn't like playing in
the clan anymore. 12/27/05
Was given the 'twit' flag on the GDB for continually posting jabs and insults at staff 2/22/06
Complaint received by email that he just walked into a few rooms, whacked a creature, skinned it, ate the meat, then
walked out.. while other PC's were watching - no RP involved at all. 4/17/06
link redacted 10/03/06
Karma Log:
(null) set account <redacted> karma to 1, I think he can handle a desert elf, despite his past - 5/12/05.
Of all of the player's PCs (on all accounts), only one was actually killed by slaying.
Quote<name redacted> has died from immortal fury in room #61803, come revel in your power.
I suppose that the notes on these accounts may speak for themselves. Even after all of that, at some point, the account did manage to get karma (which is why I included that portion of the notes too). The player DID improve over time. As the player matured, trust was granted. (Later, this trust was deemed to be misplaced, as demonstrated by notes after the karma was given--but the point I want to make here is that improvement did occur.)
I would like to comment on the gist of the rant, however.
Quote
The problem comes down to lack of empathy by the staff, and horrible policies regarding avatars which are staff-played characters for starters. [snip] Naiona was playing a northern Lirathan templar, and Halaster was playing THE Plainsman, a maxxed defiler.
QuoteThey win. This is my reason why player's do not trust staff at Armageddon MUD, and never will.
QuoteI am sure there are plenty of staff that don't do the above aforementioned bullshit, and to them I salute you.
These are events that happened quite some time ago. Since then, the staff of Armageddon have created policies that limit what staff can and cannot do with regards to avatars.
Just as a reminder (I think it has been posted before), here's the Staff Contract, which has been around in some form or another for many years.
QuoteArmageddon Staff Contract
Anything designed within the world of Armageddon is the sole property of ArmageddonMud[1].
Staff-members shall read all documents on the immortal website, and shall be held accountable to adhering to these documents.
Staff members are not to talk to, or become visible to mortals, unless it is to discuss non mud-related topics on a personal level, or with the express permission of the administration for that case.
Staff members shall keep staff-privy information within the ranks of the staff, and away from the general populace[2].
Staff-members shall interact with mortals only through the use of NPCs. Under no circumstances shall a quest be designed with the intention of harming or killing a pc. If such occurs, the staff member shall mail a greater immortal immediately, informing them of the situation[3]. Whenever a player comes to harm in a situation in which a staff member, either in immortal or mortal form, is involved, the staff member is responsible for emailing the account within 24 hours regarding the incident.
Staff members shall inform the administration in advance of any prolonged absences.
Staff-members are considered representatives of ArmageddonMud, both on and off the mud, and should conduct themselves accordingly when discussing Armageddon or related topics[4].
The job of a staff member is exactly that, a job. Every staff member is expected to constructively add to the world for as long he/she holds his/her position.
Sub-Clauses:
[1] : Property rights will remain in ArmageddonMud's control, although if a staff member wishes a copy of their work at any time, they may request it and ArmageddonMud will mail them a copy.
[2] : Staff-privy information includes, but is not limited to, bulletin boards, spoken text on immortal channels, details of un-linked zones, documents contained on the website, email from staff mailing lists, and information on disk.
[3] : Harming shall be defined as endangering the life of a character, be it through physical harm such as damage, material harm such as the removal of all equipment or coins, or mental harm such as psionical attacks or theft of something held dear.
[4] : When discussion of ArmageddonMud is held, staff members are considered representatives, and should refrain from making statements that could potentially harm the muds image. This includes, but not limited to flaming other muds in comparison to Armageddon, making snide comments towards others discussing Armageddon, and otherwise acting irresponsibly while discussing Armageddon.
The bolded part is the "no harm" rule I mentioned above. We cannot (and do not) create plotlines for the sole purpose of harming or killing a PC. The staff does a good job of adhering to this and we police each other on this. However, this is coming from the perspective of a staff member, so you will have to either trust that I am telling the truth, or disbelieve it. Staff are
not allowed to influence plots involving their PCs, either.
People have been fired from staff for affecting their avatars with their staff influence.I joined staff in the summer of 2007. I made the mistake of telling one of my Armageddon friends that I got accepted into a Storyteller position. (I don't blame this person or any people that received the leaked information. This was my fault, and I was willing to accept the responsibility and the bullshit that comes from making a mistake like this.) At the time of my accepting the staff position, I was playing a sponsored role. I was not required to store the role. Some time later, guidelines were put into place that all new staff members would be required to store existing characters, regardless of their role in the game. My position was "grandfathered in," however, and the staff generously allowed me to continue playing the role.
Due to the leak of information that I entered Armageddon staff, there were rumors going about. I'm sure that many suspected favoritism, me altering plots to suit my character, my involvement in deaths, etc. I did my best to bend over backwards to abstain from any appearance of these things, but I was in a tricky situation. How could I explain what the truth was without exposing myself as a staff member that also played a prominent role?
I found a solution that worked for me, at least. I regularly checked in with other staff members on the clans I helped staff. Any time that an issue even remotely dealt with my character, I asked the corresponding staff of my clans to make the decision on it. In my opinion, this gave me a lot of experience with looking at problems and plots from an objective point of view, simply because I was forced to. As a Storyteller, I was not allowed to log on with my staff avatar and my player character at the same time, so whenever I did have to animate, I had to take great care to make sure I did not influence things my character was involved in. There were many downsides to this--for one, my time was split between the two. For another, I was putting more work on other staff members, and they didn't deserve that. I am glad that future staff members that we recruit will not have to deal with the difficulties that arose from that (since we now require oncoming staff to store their current roles as a requirement).
The reason I was so worried about how things looked was precisely -because- of the history of these rules and their creation. There was a reason these rules and guidelines were created. There have been some pretty nasty things that have happened in the history of Armageddon, but this is not the game that exists now. Unfortunately for anyone that feels jaded or wronged, there's no way for us to prove this to you. I've seen players get chips on their shoulders against certain staff members (me included) when things do not go their way. All we can do in those cases is iterate what has been said before: we have a contract that we do our best to abide by. We can't reveal IC information or explain the decision-making process behind every staff decision that affects a player in any way (be it directly or indirectly).
The administration of Armageddon is a work in progress. It is always evolving into something new, and I believe that it is evolving into something better each time we make changes on policies and introduce new things.
:-X
You guys are scary when dealing with disgruntled players.
Also, I think it's unfair that the guy has 1 karma and I don't. *shakes fist impudently*
Wait.
Wait.
You're telling me that Delerak, disgruntled in his position with Argyle, ORCHESTRATED THE MOST ELABORATE SUICIDE ON ARMAGEDDON MUD EVER WITH THE HELP OF HALASTER AND NAIONA?
Because from the information I could glean, Argyle was captured by Plainsman and given to Eunoli, where he was then questioned and executed in the holding cells of Tuluk.
Was this colorful wording on your part, or are you really accusing Delerak of lying?
Careful what you say, Eloran, or you may be "suicided" too.
Plainsman and Eunoli. *shudder*
Together they're almost as scary as Quick.
Edited to fix typo that jabbed me in the eye with a fork.
There were some issues I encountered with Plainsman and Eunoli that I felt were unfair as a player involved with those characters. Truth be told, it's one of the main reasons that my playing has slowly dropped off over time since then. I figured out that Plainsman was Halaster's pc on my own due to a slip up he made on the GDB, the same slip up that he gave away he was using his staff status to benefit Plainsman and take out my pc. The issues with Eunoli were those of npcs backing up Eunoli and everything the character did, while shutting down any other pcs and constantly keeping Eunoli on a pedestal and keeping others down. I suspected Eunoli was a staffer's pc because of the way things went down at the time. Now it is confirmed.
You say things have been changed to prevent such occurances, I really hope so, the issues I dealt with as a player involved with those characters left a bitter taste in my mouth and I haven't been able to get fully into the game since.
Delerak's gripe, in my opinion, is legitimate. In regards to the character Plainsman, I can state with all
certainty that said avatar manipulated players ooc, and cheated in a myriad of ways:
My second pc ever, Tombs, was a Rukkian. He had a whiran that befriended him. The two became
inseperable and went on many adventures together. One of their adventures led them into the
keep Plainsman and his coterie of power rangers had taken over.
We ended up taking a good bit of obsidian and a few books. In the process of the theft, the whiran
accidentally junked a book on our way out.
We ended up taking a good bit of obsidian and a few books. In the process of the theft, the whiran
accidentally junked a book.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,18759.msg199885.html#msg199885
Provided above is the link to Halaster stating "how shitty that is," in regards to the junking of a unique
item.
Fast forward an RL day:
The whiran and I are on another one of our unforgettable adventures, traveling deep into a mountain
range far away. As we reach a rather secluded area, we heard flapping wings in the distance. Fearful,
we attempted to leave, only to be given an echo of "You hear something and do not want to leave."
Not long after, an apparition appears before us. A plot was revealed to us and a potion was given with
instructions to drink. Thereafter, <insert nasty monster that might not be kosher to reveal> shows up.
The whiran, fearful for his life, flees the scene with a spell, leaving me by myself to deal with the two
beings. Considering I had no other alternatives, I drank the potion, was immediately knocked out,
and flagged with a certain spell that is rather detrimental to particular guilds.
Upon waking up, the ghost and monster had vanished, leaving me by myself. I climbed back down
on my own and began making my way across the lands, still unable to call upon my magick for
support. I logged out for a short break, came back five minutes later, and continued on my way.
No less than five minutes upon logging in, the Plainsman appeared to me abruptly, accusing me of
being the one who stole from him. There I was cut down by a disgustingly powerful spell, and thus
ended the story of Tombs.
Let's look over a few things:
1) How could the Plainsman possibly have known that it was both of us that stole from him when we
were protected by magick and never seen by any type of guard or spell in his impenetrable keep?
2) Why did the potion I was ordered to drink knock me out long enough for my buffs to wear off while
simultaneously putting a particular spell on me that kept me in a vulnerable position? Could it have been
so that Plainsman would have an easier time catching me/killing me?
3) Was Halaster vengeful for having lost his book? I'd wager that yes, he was.
4) Could there be a plausible explanation for everything that occured, up to and including the
spell in question that left me -completely defenseless-? Possibly, all of this together sure makes
Halaster look guilty.
In conclusion, my experiences with staff have been amazing. My first character ever was in the Legion,
and I had a chance to play with Eunoli - I never had problems with her, and to my knowledge, Naiona
was responsible with the powers given to her. Minus the potential conflict of interest with her helming
the AoD while playing Eunoli, she seemed to handle it well.
As for Halaster, though, I cannot say that I respect or admire him as a player or former staff member.
I've heard many, many stories about how he abused his role in the game, implemented spells for the
sole purpose of killing adversaries, and loading magickal items for other pcs to find before swooping
down with his avatar and taking said items from them so that an IC reason can be given to justify his
actions.
Quote from: Eloran on April 24, 2009, 11:48:36 AM
Wait.
Wait.
You're telling me that Delerak, disgruntled in his position with Argyle, ORCHESTRATED THE MOST ELABORATE SUICIDE ON ARMAGEDDON MUD EVER WITH THE HELP OF HALASTER AND NAIONA?
Because from the information I could glean, Argyle was captured by Plainsman and given to Eunoli, where he was then questioned and executed in the holding cells of Tuluk.
Was this colorful wording on your part, or are you really accusing Delerak of lying?
There are always two sides to every story, from the staff people involved's perspective, his actions led to the death of his character. I would say that suicide may not be the right term to have used. Unfortunately neither Halaster nor Naiona are around to give any more details, but I would trust that there was more to the story than what was posted in the 'rant'.
It's pretty obvious, I was that whiran. Which was killed probably later that very same day by Plainsman as well after showing up out of the wild maroon yonder and questioning me about those same books. It was the very post you linked Mudder, that I made the discovery of who he was and how he used his status as a staffer to get my character and yours.
The thread as originally posted has served it's purpose, so I'm locking it.
If you have complaints about specific staff actions, please use the complaint channels available to you outside of the GDB.
I understand that it can be frustrating when seeming OOC abuse affects/kills your characters. Please remember that there are multitudes of ways for things to be discovered that are available to the player base. Just because things don't go your way doesn't mean we're actively plotting against you.
As staff, we do our best to be professional and polite. We try to be objective, and avoid acting unilaterally, instead working with other staff to reach a consensus. We have written policies, contracts, and documentation that we've created to better define our role for the benefit of the players, ourselves, and the game. We are people, and mistakes are made. We attempt to learn from these, discussing them and attempting to revise our documentation, policies, and practicies to better ourselves in the future. To be effective, we learn, even with different opinions and personalities, to work together, adapt, compromise, and in some cases, subordinate or capitulate. Every potential staff members get asked about their ability to take criticism, how they react and how they deal with disagreements, because as staff, both from within staff and from players, you're going to get lots. This thread was started to provide warning and information, because we are trying to be transparent, and informative with the community. We also want to give folks the best chance at enjoying the game, which can easily be destroyed by negativity, OOC communication, slander, gossip, and lies. As Morgenes stated, there are often many perceptions of how situations happened and resolved themselves in game, and we're happy to look into any complaints filed through the request tool or an email to mud. However, as a participant, one has the choice of assuming the worst, or taking a more positive slant. If one choses the former, no matter what happens, what information is provided, chances are, that's what one is going to assume. This is a great game, and it's here to entertain and enjoy. Hopefully that's what one focuses on.