Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => World and Roleplaying Discussion => Topic started by: 5 day lifespan on March 11, 2009, 12:05:20 PM

Title: Magicker population?
Post by: 5 day lifespan on March 11, 2009, 12:05:20 PM
What is the normally expected magicker population normally supposed to be in Zalanthas?  I'm just curious as I have seen a higher percentage of gems-on-throats than I have ever seen before.  It's really nice to see them having a culture and all, but my character is getting a little freaked out by seeing roving packs of them constantly.

I thought they were a rare group, an aberration or mutation. (depending on IC points of view)
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Boggis on March 11, 2009, 12:09:01 PM
There's a whole quarter full of them. I think it's safe for your PC to assume that you're not seeing any more / less of them just because you see a few more PCs around at some point in time.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: That70sDrovian on March 11, 2009, 12:12:25 PM
*whistles innocently*
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 11, 2009, 12:24:39 PM
Yeah, it should be fairly common to see gemmers if you're living in Allanak. Other places it shouldn't be as common so it sounds about right to me. They're always there in 'Nak whether there happens to be a few pc mages or not.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 11, 2009, 12:32:12 PM
Quote from: jhunter on March 11, 2009, 12:24:39 PM
Yeah, it should be fairly common to see gemmers if you're living in Allanak.

edit for less snark.

I don't know that it should be 'common' to see gemmers if you are, say, a Byn Runner or a grebber in Allanak. Very few coded NPCs wear gems outside of the quarter.  I can't think of any, actually.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 11, 2009, 12:34:58 PM
Edit: Since you actually decided to say something.

Keep in mind, there are vnpcs all over the city. It's safe to say that they too have to leave the quarter in order to get food supplies, or work just like pc elementalists would be doing as well. As for not seeing coded gemmed outside the quarter, that is false, there -are- gemmed npcs outside of the elementalists quarter.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 11, 2009, 12:36:57 PM
Quote from: jhunter on March 11, 2009, 12:34:58 PM
Do you have something to actually say or are you trolling?

I dislike with the current frequency of gemmer-mundane encounters in Allanak. It seems a bit high to me.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 11, 2009, 12:38:13 PM
I can remember one or two gemmed npcs outside the quarter, I think. In any case, take into account vnpcs as well. Most gemmed never leave the quarter, but some (namely pcs) do.

Things run in cycles here, 5DLS. Sometimes you may see more mages than usual. Other times, it may be desert elves, half-elves, city elves, humans, dwarves, half-giants, whatever.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 11, 2009, 12:43:46 PM
Quote from: number13 on March 11, 2009, 12:36:57 PM
Quote from: jhunter on March 11, 2009, 12:34:58 PM
Do you have something to actually say or are you trolling?

I dislike with the current frequency of gemmer-mundane encounters in Allanak at present. It seems a bit high to me.

The problem is, IMO, that alot of players seem to be under the misconception that frequency of seeing magicker pcs in Allanak should be much like that of Tuluk or other places. As someone else said, there is an entire quarter of the city where they are allowed to live and practice their magicks. They work alongside some of the other mundane citizens on a daily basis, there's a noble house that employs them. The templarate utilizes them. If you are seeing gemmers in Allanak, that's good, they're part of living there and it is as it should be. If you're seeing them on a daily basis anywhere else, then, there's likely an issue or something major going on at that time causing it.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 12:44:59 PM
There were even more of them around 1-2 months ago.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 11, 2009, 12:47:23 PM
It is high because it only takes a few players to make the role sounds like 'fun' to attract more players to play gemmers as well.

The more fun us 'gemmers' seem to be having in public, the more interested people will be in trying one, and perhaps they are
just thinking that right now would be a good time to try a gemmer of their own, because there's a good bunch of great players
playing one currently.

That sort of thread is not going to stop anyone from playing a gemmer in the near future, actually, by saying that there's a good
bunch of them right now will probably attract more of them (and I know that some are quite interested in playing one as well
currently), so, yes, expect numbers to grow in the near future.

I feel for you, though, because yes, I often see 3-5 gemmers all sitting together and acting like they own the place, and there's
only 1 mundane or 2 around, and it must be really hard to pick on a gemmer when the rest of his group will protect him.

When I was playing a mundane, a few months ago, and me and my brother PC insulted a gemmer, the guy went right away to
a militia PC and bribed him to kill my brother for insulting him. The brother was dead a day later.

But again, right now, we are making gemmers sound like a lot of fun to play (and they are!) so players are probably taking notice
and thinking it's a good time to try one.

But the same can be said of anything else, at some point I was making Jul Tavan sounds like a lot of fun to play and we were always
4-5 of us in Tuluk. It only takes one or two interesting PCs in a group to attract more to them.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 11, 2009, 12:55:23 PM
Quote from: jhunter
The problem is, IMO, that alot of players seem to be under the misconception that frequency of seeing magicker pcs in Allanak should be much like that of Tuluk or other places.  ...  If you are seeing gemmers in Allanak, that's good, they're part of living there and it is as it should be.

I know you are correct about that. 

I'm saying I wish the the pendulum would swing back to gemmer/mundane ratio I perceived when I first started playing the game. That could involve gemmers hiding in their own circles, mundane players returning from stints in Tuluk, less gemmers, or a mundane hide-away for grebbers, scum, and mercs with a 'no fingerwigglers' sign posted out front.

For any given area aside from the quarter (and -perhaps- another couple certain areas), I'd prefer seeing mundane PCs outnumber non-mundanes.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Riev on March 11, 2009, 01:02:04 PM
*sniff*

Do you smell that? I smell a derail into "All the mundane players are in Tuluk" insinuations, causing another argument about city-states.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: 5 day lifespan on March 11, 2009, 01:48:36 PM
I suppose it is just the WHERE of it.  If I'm in the elementalists' quarter, sure.  If I am in the Bard's, sure.  MAYBE the traders.  But in the Gaj?  Templars get shanked in the Gaj.

And yes, there is at least one gemmer NPC outside of the quarter.  I was flirting with her until I saw the gem.  Oops.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: X-D on March 11, 2009, 02:02:04 PM
The traders? No way.

Reds? Maybe.

The Gaj, definitly.

Thing is, the Gaj is the lowest class of tavern in allanak proper. Where else would scum like mages, Mercs and thieves hang out?

Which BTW, is the way staff wants it, otherwise they would have put in a gemmed quarter tavern AGES ago, not like nearly every gemmed player has not asked over the years.

Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 02:04:04 PM
Quote from: X-D on March 11, 2009, 02:02:04 PM
The traders? No way.

Reds? Maybe.

The Gaj, definitly.

Thing is, the Gaj is the lowest class of tavern in allanak proper. Where else would scum like mages, Mercs and thieves hang out?

Which BTW, is the way staff wants it, otherwise they would have put in a gemmed quarter tavern AGES ago, not like nearly every gemmed player has not asked over the years.



Inferring what the Staff want from what they haven't done is probably a fairly poor way of determining their intentions.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: titansfan on March 11, 2009, 02:05:33 PM
So make the gemmers life a living hell when you see them? Maybe you'll force them to off themselves in self pity? I never have a problem with amounts of things in any area...it's a world, adapt to it...play as your character's mindset would force you to act. You hate the mages? Then piss on their boots or throw poop at them. Maybe then they will stay in their quarter?
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: X-D on March 11, 2009, 02:19:20 PM
Maybe, or maybe it is just the way I felt like saying it.

Either way, there have been many attempts, IC and OOC to get a tavern in the gemmed quarter, and in the better then 12 years that the quarter has existed, still, no tavern there...SO...given the time and the literally hundreds maybe thousands of requests, I would say that it is a rather good way to infer such a thing.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 11, 2009, 02:26:18 PM
Quote from: X-D on March 11, 2009, 02:19:20 PM
Maybe, or maybe it is just the way I felt like saying it.

Either way, there have been many attempts, IC and OOC to get a tavern in the gemmed quarter, and in the better then 12 years that the quarter has existed, still, no tavern there...SO...given the time and the literally hundreds maybe thousands of requests, I would say that it is a rather good way to infer such a thing.

The gemmed quarter is one of my most favorite area in the game, to be honest. They don't have a tavern but they have a whole nice area that could serve as one, bbq and picnic area included!

I usually go to the Gaj because I want to roleplay with others, not because I'm bored out of my mind. I see the Gaj so empty, lately, so I feel bad that 8 characters out of 21 are gemmed ones all
hanging out together in some Estate, or in a Temple, having a blast, so sometimes I decide to head there to play with the 1 or 2 mundane sitting at the bar.

If you want us all to hang out in our quarter, trust me, it won't be a problem for me, but don't say that the Gaj and Allanak are always empty nowadays. I go there to entertain the masses, not the
other way around.

(That wasn't directed to you, X-D, I was just quoting you for, huh, I don't really remember now..)
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: evil_erdlu on March 11, 2009, 02:37:03 PM
Err.. making a gemmer's life hell?

Let's assume IRL, there _is_ someone who has psionic powers. People have observed him moving a truck with only the power of his mind. About half a year ago, he accelerated a little piece of stone into such a high speed that he instantly killed a mugger beating on his momma.

That man is _naturally_ shunned, you know he's been going to a special laboratory where folks from the government examine his brain. Seems they did allow him to wander around freely and there are rumours he's even being used a specialized killer in some situations.

So.. You get into the bar and fling poo at him? Bad move..

- He will indeed be killed by special forces if he goes berserk but heh.. You'll most possibly die, too.
- He is in a way the property of the government, a.k.a the men in black. You don't mess with the toys of men in black.
- You pass through three alleys when you go home.
- You _do not_ know if he's able to kill you without a trace from far, far away.


Let's translate this passage to zalanthas..

Let's assume in Allanak, there _is_ someone who is a krathi. People have observed him creating walls of fire with only the power of his mind. About half a year ago, he burned down a gith attacking his mining buddy in mere moments.

That man is _naturally_ shunned, you know he's been going to the Temple of Suk-Krath where templars often visit and examine the gemmers. Seems they did allow him to wander around freely and there are rumours he's even being used a specialized killed in some situations.

So.. You get into the tavern and fling poo at him? Bad move..

- He will indeed be killed by militia if he goes berserk but heh.. You'll most possibly die, too.
- He is in a way the property of the templerate. You don't mess with the toys of templerate.
- You pass through three alleys when you go home, additionally you go outside the gates for salt grebbing.
- You _do not_ know if he's able to kill you without a trace from far, far away.


Now, still messing with gemmers without social power to back you up sounds reasonable?
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 02:53:51 PM
There are ways to shun magickers, without being a total farkwad.

1) Don't invite them to your parties.

2) Don't invite them out on hunting trips.

3) Don't trade with them, even if they're the *only* PC in town.

4) Don't talk to them.

5) Don't sit at the same table as them.

6) Any time one enters the room, leave.

7) Ditto the above for anyone else who deals with them.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: evil_erdlu on March 11, 2009, 03:14:35 PM
Quote from: Synthesis
There are ways to shun magickers, without being a total farkwad.

1) Don't invite them to your parties.

2) Don't invite them out on hunting trips.

3) Don't trade with them, even if they're the *only* PC in town.

4) Don't talk to them.

5) Don't sit at the same table as them.

6) Any time one enters the room, leave.

7) Ditto the above for anyone else who deals with them.

Totally right...
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: spawnloser on March 11, 2009, 03:44:45 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 02:04:04 PM
Quote from: X-D on March 11, 2009, 02:02:04 PM
Which BTW, is the way staff wants it, otherwise they would have put in a gemmed quarter tavern AGES ago, not like nearly every gemmed player has not asked over the years.

Inferring what the Staff want from what they haven't done is probably a fairly poor way of determining their intentions.

I was directly told that they would not put a tavern in the Elementalist Quarter because non-gemmers wouldn't go there, furthering an arbitrary separation between PC mundanes and PC gemmers.  I infer that they do not want the potential conflict of mundanes and gemmers to be eliminated.  Handle it IC.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 11, 2009, 03:49:10 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 02:53:51 PM
There are ways to shun magickers, without being a total farkwad.

1) Don't invite them to your parties.

2) Don't invite them out on hunting trips.

3) Don't trade with them, even if they're the *only* PC in town.

4) Don't talk to them.

5) Don't sit at the same table as them.

6) Any time one enters the room, leave.

7) Ditto the above for anyone else who deals with them.

It might be totally right, but with the amount of magickers right now, you are making your life more boring than you would make theirs. It shows, people come back an hour later and talk to the gemmers.

1) What parties? For every mundane party, there's probably five gemmer parties going on.

2) Hunting trips? Gemmers probably hunt more than the Salarri hunters, lately.

3) Gemmers are some of the wealthiest PCs in game, not trading with them would be.. Dumb.

4) See the part where the mundanes get bored and come back to talk and be buddies again within an hour.

5) They couldn't care less, gemmers are often in groups together at the Gaj, mundanes are often alone.

6) That makes us giggle more than anything else.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 11, 2009, 03:56:49 PM
A character of mine once helped squelch an IC attempt to make a gemmer tavern.

He was a gemmer himself, too.   :(


Quote from: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 02:53:51 PM
There are ways to shun magickers, without being a total farkwad.

1) Don't invite them to your parties.

2) Don't invite them out on hunting trips.

3) Don't trade with them, even if they're the *only* PC in town.

4) Don't talk to them.

5) Don't sit at the same table as them.

6) Any time one enters the room, leave.

7) Ditto the above for anyone else who deals with them.
Yes... do this if you want to avoid all conflict and bore gemmer PCs to tears.  ::)

My list:
1) Exchange awkward/dirty/scared/pity glances with gemmers.

2) Play up ignorance.  Without malice, ask some gemmer if it's true genital shrinkage is a side effect of magick.  Perhaps offer to bribe them to leave your berries alone.

3) Do business with gemmers, but be rough on the bargaining.  Also perhaps tell them to keep quiet afterwards, because you won't do business with them again if all your friends find out you did.

4) Invite them on hunting trips (works a little better if this is a militia trip), but don't let them buff you and your men.  Tell them to save the curses for the prey/enemy (and not the ones you intend to eat).
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 04:19:32 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 11, 2009, 03:49:10 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 02:53:51 PM
There are ways to shun magickers, without being a total farkwad.

1) Don't invite them to your parties.

2) Don't invite them out on hunting trips.

3) Don't trade with them, even if they're the *only* PC in town.

4) Don't talk to them.

5) Don't sit at the same table as them.

6) Any time one enters the room, leave.

7) Ditto the above for anyone else who deals with them.

It might be totally right, but with the amount of magickers right now, you are making your life more boring than you would make theirs. It shows, people come back an hour later and talk to the gemmers.

1) What parties? For every mundane party, there's probably five gemmer parties going on.

2) Hunting trips? Gemmers probably hunt more than the Salarri hunters, lately.

3) Gemmers are some of the wealthiest PCs in game, not trading with them would be.. Dumb.

4) See the part where the mundanes get bored and come back to talk and be buddies again within an hour.

5) They couldn't care less, gemmers are often in groups together at the Gaj, mundanes are often alone.

6) That makes us giggle more than anything else.

I never claimed any of these to be an "ooh, gotcha, checkmate" solution.

I just finished playing a 25 day gemmer, I know what the culture is all about.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 11, 2009, 04:26:20 PM
If you want to insult a gemmer in the gaj, the current gemmers are all pretty damn good players, and probably know how to take it. Be tactful, and smart with your insults.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Agent_137 on March 11, 2009, 04:40:06 PM
mundanes,
avoiding gemmers is boring play for both parties. this game is about interacting. Gemmers ONLY come southside to interact, just like you ONLY sit at the bar for interaction. So play the damn game and interact!

(may i suggest fearful looks, changing tables, boasting of your combat prowess, whatever your PC would do that also allows for interaction. Surely you can come up with something better than just leaving.)

Gemmers,
don't be ICly or OOCly ignorant about the impact on mundanes when you go around publicly in packs. Bring that awareness into the game. If there are 3 or more, you KNOW that you are making -all- the mundanes around you uncomfortable and that you will be in their nightmares for at least a few days.

Aren't you afraid they'll pay some gem-unfriendly templar to come give you some trouble? Be aware! You are NOT an f-me/aide PC with cool flashy powers. You are a fucking abomination that eats children. Act like you know it, even if you don't believe it.

(Further, most gemmers do not come from gemmer parents, and most likely grew up fearing and hating magick. How does that affect your psyche? Does it impact how you deal with mundanes? Knowing their same fear, but having to face it daily in the mirror? If you skip all these questions with some bullshit line in your background, then you are shorting yourself AND all of us.)
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: a strange shadow on March 11, 2009, 04:52:29 PM
^ read it.

Well said.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 04:58:23 PM
Sometimes, ignoring people is better than interacting merely for interaction's sake.

If I'm painting in watercolors, there's no point in scribbling on the canvas with a crayon, just because there's one lying on the floor.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 11, 2009, 05:30:13 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 04:58:23 PM
Sometimes, ignoring people is better than interacting merely for interaction's sake.

If I'm painting in watercolors, there's no point in scribbling on the canvas with a crayon, just because there's one lying on the floor.


Well obviously. But if you're all out of paint, then you're going to use the crayon.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: titansfan on March 11, 2009, 05:53:20 PM
Lol, my comment was more of a joke, but seriously there are ways to make that flame throwing krathi's life a pain.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 11, 2009, 06:50:26 PM
Quote from: Agent_137 on March 11, 2009, 04:40:06 PM
Gemmers,
don't be ICly or OOCly ignorant about the impact on mundanes when you go around publicly in packs. Bring that awareness into the game. If there are 3 or more, you KNOW that you are making -all- the mundanes around you uncomfortable and that you will be in their nightmares for at least a few days.

Aren't you afraid they'll pay some gem-unfriendly templar to come give you some trouble? Be aware! You are NOT an f-me/aide PC with cool flashy powers. You are a fucking abomination that eats children. Act like you know it, even if you don't believe it.

There have been a couple Gaj interactions I've had with gemmed that really played this sort of thing up. Belated, public kudos to them. It was the sort of mundane<-->magicker interaction I actually enjoy.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Gunnerblaster on March 11, 2009, 08:37:49 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 11, 2009, 12:47:23 PM
I feel for you, though, because yes, I often see 3-5 gemmers all sitting together and acting like they own the place, and there's
only 1 mundane or 2 around, and it must be really hard to pick on a gemmer when the rest of his group will protect him.

I do not have a problem with the amount of magicker-roles that I am seeing strolling around but what I -do- have a problem with is when they actually seem to throw away all of their roleplaying culture. I have seen magickers talking down on people. To my knowledge, I figured magickers were below scum, so what gives? Is this something I missed or are all gemmed suddenly growing balls and getting 'hardcore'?

We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Jenred on March 11, 2009, 08:54:36 PM
Its a phenomenon that happens under a few circumstances.

1: Larger, more consistently playing Pbase.
2: Larger fraction of more capable players among that Pbase.
3: Players staying with the game longer.
4: Larger staffing pool to observe players.
5: More Karma being awarded.

To break it down into dialogue. There is seemingly a more consistent level of people playing. This would imply that we are both getting more new players, players are sticking around longer, and/or possibly old players returning. As such, the number of accounts with Karma/Trust of the staff increases... helped out by the generally larger number of active staff.

This is also coupled with an outside phenomenon. The GDB. More than ever, and definitely in EXTREMELY high frequency compared to the old-GDB, magick intricacies are talked about conversationally. Sometimes entire several page long threads to the various subtleties of cantrips, or other features, or roleplaying, etc.  Basically advertising the karma-restricted playing options.

So as soon as some players get the opprotunity they are rolling up characters, and sticking with them because of a common avenue to approach gaming: demystification. It is something to unravel and figure out. Thats why some characters get locked in these roles, because they have never quite "beat" the magick system.


And now, as things seem to be (disclaimer... it doesn't seem to ME we are any closer to the end) moving towards the end of the game, there is a common theory that the End will be something magickal, as most of the major events of the game's history have been. So playing a magick-character seems to be a way for players to try and connect with the crazy-backstory things going on.

Another theory is that... there have always been a decent portion of the population of the Pbase that have been magickers, but just up until recently they haven't gone out as much. This could be correct too.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Fathi on March 11, 2009, 09:09:50 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on March 11, 2009, 08:37:49 PM
We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

This doesn't solve the problem and it almost always comes off as borderline OOC-motivated when people play these types of characters.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 11, 2009, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on March 11, 2009, 08:37:49 PM
We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

Sorry, but mage hunters (unless they are mages themselves) make absolutely no fucking sense.

You should not be attempting to kill a mage under almost any circumstances. For all your character knows they eat babies and shit fire.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: zaraj on March 11, 2009, 09:37:34 PM
Quote from: Eloran on March 11, 2009, 09:20:19 PM
For all your character knows they eat babies and shit fire.

Or vice versa.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:00:48 PM
Quote from: Eloran on March 11, 2009, 09:20:19 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on March 11, 2009, 08:37:49 PM
We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

Sorry, but mage hunters (unless they are mages themselves) make absolutely no fucking sense.

You should not be attempting to kill a mage under almost any circumstances. For all your character knows they eat babies and shit fire.

Well, no... It's possible to study something that you aren't and become an intelligent hunter - if you can trick your prey into letting you close.  Or, you know, be a stupid hunter and die.  Either case, both perfectlly reasonable variants of normal behavior - with, of course, the caveat that Fathi mentioned that it's not easy to play this well. 

That said, I enjoy walking into conflicted roles.  People trying to kill me, might make me more likely to play the role because I know I'd have something to do.  ;)
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Morrolan on March 11, 2009, 10:16:08 PM
There are a few other factors to be taken into account with the "roving pack" "problem" of multiple gemmers in the Gaj.

1) There are no social rules to manage these interactions.  There are no social conventions.  That's wierd.  That means the options are "Kill", "Flee",  and "Ignore"

     a) There should be a table commonly known as the "gemmers table".  Gemmers don't have to sit there, but they commonly would.

     b) There is no consistent mythology of what gemmers can and can't do.  In RL there are legends of such things, and we don't even have mages!

     c) No one complains about the magickers they never/rarely see.

2) In the realm of magickers, AFAIK, it has come in vogue to complain about the "problem" on the GDB.  Then again, maybe it has always been in vogue.

     a) If you don't like it, e-mail staff.  Get your friends to email staff.  If that doesn't work...well, tough.

     b) The complaining on the GDB has done just as much to demystify wigglers as any pro-mage, gem-hugging, Qel-smoking, peace and love hippy (who eats babies).

     c) I played consistently from about 2003 to the copper-wars without knowing a damn thing about magick.  I think I met one mage when I was a Byn Sarge (contract).  The turn, I think, was at the time of the Copper Wars, when the gemmers -really- went to war.  I remember some discussion of recognizing their service.  It was quashed, I speculate, but the sentiment was never really lost.  The role of gemmers did seem to change from that time.  Perhaps that doesn't make everyone happy, but that's the oral history as I remember it.

     d) Magickers, like mundanes, are actors on the social and political scene.  You can take away their rights, but not their agency!  (In a Bourdieu sorta way...)

Morrolan

--mod for readability--
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 11, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
Quote from: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:00:48 PM
Well, no... It's possible[...]

No.

No.

NO.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

Listen to me, I implore you.
***********************************************************************
Quote from: Shalooonsh, who said it best
Fighting a magicker should be the equivalent of going up against a 500 lb football player loaded on PCP, with an unstable cold-war era Soviet nuclear suitcase bomb strapped to his arm.

You should NEVER want to fight one.

Let me repeat this, for all of you 'mage hunters' out there.

You should NEVER want to fight one.

Magickers are not people.  They are half demon things that eat babies, lurk in shadows, and can strike you with a curse to make your genitalia swell to the size of a wagon which then starts to try to choke the life out of you.  You DO NOT know what they can do.  You DO NOT have any defense.

-EVERY- mage should be treated differently... but they aren't.  -EVERY- mage should be feared... but they aren't.  This is because players realize that in a slug fest, they might have a chance.  "Oh, that's a sardine elementalist... he has 'create salt' and 'everlasting tin container of safety' and no real offensive spells.  I can take him!"  UNTRUE.  Your CHARACTER has no bloody idea if that PC actually can actually cast 'floppy halibut of pain' and make you dance a horizontal jig while he curses every one you have ever known.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Gunnerblaster on March 11, 2009, 10:28:50 PM
Quote from: Fathi on March 11, 2009, 09:09:50 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on March 11, 2009, 08:37:49 PM
We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

This doesn't solve the problem and it almost always comes off as borderline OOC-motivated when people play these types of characters.
I was joking.

:(

-Re-edited to not be a jerk-
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Synthesis on March 11, 2009, 10:35:54 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh, who said it best
You should never WANT to fight one.

Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:39:32 PM
Quote from: Eloran on March 11, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
(Random stuff and a cool quote from Shal.)

Thank you for sharing that, as I think it proves a point other than the one you're making (ie, reinforcing magical superstition, particularly as it relates to Joe Commoner).  I'm not going to debate poor Shal out of context because I'd be willing to bet a great deal that this was an argument against flippacy to magickers, which I don't promote and was/is a long-standing theme in the game.  That's why Fathi is right (as I said) that folks don't in general handle 'hunter' roles well.  It's very hard to do in an ICly and OOCly appropriate way.  However, neither will I ever totally give up the torch that there's no place for a well-played hunter.  

Thank you for explaining the context you're approaching from, but just as you'd like to throw a wall in front of someone, I'd rather not prevent a good player from taking on the challenge of a role due to OOC pressure.

Just to clarify:
1.  I'd rather greater respect of the scariness of magic, hands down, too.  
2.  People should always learn to master the mundane before jumping into crazy stuff like this because it makes the game stronger and it makes them stronger, too.
3.  I strongly dislike OOC pressures telling people what is or is not acceptable to play within the game, assuming they have a good backing for what they want to do.  It kills the fun.  In this case, they'd best have a -damn- good reason.
4.  For every basic rule of thumb for roleplay, a capable, experienced RPer can twist and break it.  It's #17 or #18 on my list of gaming rules. It also comes with the responsibility to respect the environment you're walking into - and the undoubted consequence of death.

Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 11, 2009, 11:16:52 PM
Quote from: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:39:32 PM
Thank you for sharing that, as I think it proves a point other than the one you're making (ie, reinforcing magical superstition, particularly as it relates to Joe Commoner).

Not just Joe Commoner, but everyone, save for mages themselves and templars who wield magickal powers.

Quote from: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:39:32 PM
However, neither will I ever totally give up the torch that there's no place for a well-played hunter.

That's just it: There's no place for a well-played hunter, because any character who hunts mages is obviously stupid and has a death wish. It's also stupid ooc, because usually "mage hunters" only hunt mages that they have dirt on OOC. I remember one of the last mage hunters who targeted one specific group of mages before all others, because he had extensive knowledge of their strengths/weaknesses. His own guild was one that measured up better against said group of mages than other guilds.

The only time mages should be hunted/fought is in large groups, and out of fear/the inherent need to protect one's home/family. If your profession is "mage hunter," and you actually hunt mages for a living, I just..nevermind.

Quote from: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:39:32 PM
Thank you for explaining the context you're approaching from, but just as you'd like to throw a wall in front of someone, I'd rather not prevent a good player from taking on the challenge of a role due to OOC pressure.

It's not OOC pressure sir. It's about playing within the boundaries of the game world. It's about staying true to the documentation.

Quote from: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:39:32 PM
I'd rather greater respect of the scariness of magic, hands down, too.

You're not going to see if it you want to see mage hunters in game.

Quote from: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:39:32 PM
I strongly dislike OOC pressures telling people what is or is not acceptable to play within the game, assuming they have a good backing for what they want to do.  It kills the fun.  In this case, they'd best have a -damn- good reason.

I'm not killing anyone's fun. Or at least, I'm not trying to. I just don't want to see a pack of mage hunters running about teaming up on mages. I want people to stay true to the documentation. I want people to respect and fear mages. Please don't accuse me of trying to strongarm people into not playing out a concept. It's not about shouting someone down, so much as it is telling someone that playing a mage hunter just doesn't fit the mold of Zalanthas.

Quote from: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:39:32 PM
For every basic rule of thumb for roleplay, a capable, experienced RPer can twist and break it.

They can, but at the expense of other players, as well as the game itself.

Quote from: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 10:39:32 PM
It also comes with the responsibility to respect the environment you're walking into - and the undoubted consequence of death.

I contend that if you're creating a character who is built specifically to hunt mages (unless they're a mage themself) then you are not respecting the environment.

We're derailing, though. We should get back on topic.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: brytta.leofa on March 11, 2009, 11:26:32 PM
I suggest a new help topic: magick superstition.  Something that outlines the common gamut of beliefs and feelings in the major settlements.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Jingo on March 11, 2009, 11:36:20 PM
This thread really just proves that there is no possible consensus on mage interactions.

I've seen a huge wide, range of reactions to gemmers and magickers alike. Most of them unsupported by the docs. Which makes me wonder if it's our roleplay or the whole magick system that needs rethinking.

Also, I specifically apped a "mage hunter" special application once. Complete with a few goodies to make it possible and the intent to make it so. It was rejected and the staff told me that it's something that should be pursued in game through a normal application. Go figure.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 11, 2009, 11:38:50 PM
Quote from: Jingo on March 11, 2009, 11:36:20 PM
Which makes me wonder if it's the system or our roleplay that needs rethinking.

The latter. People just need to follow the guidelines. It's not that difficult really.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Rairen on March 11, 2009, 11:39:44 PM
Psst... a few things...

1.  It's a philosophic debate about a game we play in our spare time.  Don't get so worked up over it so that you get your head all in a muddle.
2.  A unique, well-played, challenging, documentation-appropriate RP does not break the game or ruin it for other people. It makes it interesting.  It's okay to have reservations about abuse, but still be open-minded about the wonderful things the players here can create in this world, mundane or otherwise, if you give them the chance and guidelines they need to succeed.
3.  I understand your strong feelings against this.  Please, also, respect mine in seeing the hint of potential for it.  We can't both of us win, and I would wager that this extends to many other roles or code bases which can be seen as OOCly exploitative (whatever that means for the week).
4.  It's ma'am.

;D

Edit:  I just saw Brytta's suggestion.  That should exist if it doesn't already.  Is it mentioned only in the "Things You Know" sort of entries?
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Jenred on March 12, 2009, 12:44:45 AM
It is not just mundanes "formulating" opinions about magickers.

More than a few magicker characters have gone out of their way to stress their normalcy, relative safety and even touch on the extent of their powers. Even if they are lying completely, its still a concerted effort of "demon baby eaters" to calm the populace about their presence.

Not to mention those employed by Oash in the past.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: a strange shadow on March 12, 2009, 12:52:58 AM
Mages in Tuluk = demon baby eaters
Mages in Allanak = an unpredictable lunatic with a machine gun
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Pale Horse on March 12, 2009, 12:58:16 AM
Just think how wonderful the world would be if everyone took the responses and attitudes in this thread and applied them IG!!!!

'Gicker getting friendly?  Ridicule the demon-spawned, breed spawn for even thinking he/she is worth talking to.  Or better yet, just ignore them or walk away, they're not worth the time replaying to.

'Gicker getting friendly?  Hot-damn, here's a chance to get him/her to shrivel the tits of that hard-assed sergeant who's been giving you shit during sparring.  See how well her lover likes her now.

Your friends are playing nice with the finger-wigglers?  Maybe they're trying to kill him..or..maybe their trying to get on their good side, so as not to end up wearing their innards in their heads and their brains in their stomachs.

Be the change you want in the game, people.

p.s. Nothing against the original poster, but my first thought when seeing this thread was "Just let the topic die already!  We don't need another one of these", knowing fully well where this was all going to lead, eventually.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on March 12, 2009, 02:08:25 AM
There's a way to play a 'gicker hunter without it being OOCly motivated or stupid.  It's also a sponsored role specific to one city.  You'll also have other duties.  Many other duties.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 12, 2009, 02:18:04 AM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on March 12, 2009, 02:08:25 AM
There's a way to play a 'gicker hunter without it being OOCly motivated or stupid.  It's also a sponsored role specific to one city.  You'll also have other duties.  Many other duties.

Just because you're a Jihaen doesn't mean it should make sense for your character to gallivant about hunting mages. Even most Jihaens fear mages, because most of them do not understand them.

I'd also refrain from calling Jihaen's magicker hunters, as there is far more depth to them than that. Unless you were referring to something else completely, in which case I'm a dummy.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on March 12, 2009, 02:21:30 AM
Quote from: Eloran on March 12, 2009, 02:18:04 AM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on March 12, 2009, 02:08:25 AM
There's a way to play a 'gicker hunter without it being OOCly motivated or stupid.  It's also a sponsored role specific to one city.  You'll also have other duties.  Many other duties.

Just because you're a Jihaen doesn't mean it should make sense for your character to gallivant about hunting mages. Even most Jihaens fear mages, because most of them do not understand them.

I'd also refrain from calling Jihaen's magicker hunters, as there is far more depth to them than that. Unless you were referring to something else completely, in which case I'm a dummy.
No, that's what I was referring to, but that's what I was alluding to regarding the "other duties."  Jihaens can and do hunt magickers around Tuluk, and they never, ever do so alone.  However, it isn't their main job, and they don't "gallivant about," by any means, you're right.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 12, 2009, 02:28:00 AM
Jihaen templars surrounded by troops is one of the very few examples of mage hunting that goes on that fits the gameworld realistically, IMO.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Rhyden on March 12, 2009, 02:37:52 AM
I could maybe see a half-crazed, spiced and souped up warrior-ranger combo going after a magicker or two, if they really needed the coin or whatever, but it would probably be rare and definitely dangerous for all those involved. This is probably why you don't see many successful mundane 'mage-hunters' around.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Synthesis on March 12, 2009, 03:05:45 AM
I imagine a good, well-informed (e.g. works for Oash or the Templarate), well-supplied assassin could keep naughty 'gickers up at night, worrying...but again, this would be a rare exception.

If anything, I'd like to see more magickers being afraid of other magickers.  I mean, just because you're a Whiran doesn't mean you know everything about what that Krathi over there can do.  Just because he hasn't fireballed you yet doesn't mean he isn't contemplating it every time you go out the gates.  Maybe you know his weaknesses, but hell...maybe he knows yours, too.  Every time he reaches into his pack, you should be worrying whether he's going to pull out the mon component that will be the end of you.  The same goes for every other type of 'gicker...when your supposed "buddy's" magick starts to flare up, you have no fucking idea whether it's going to buff your stats or check-mate your ass.  Fuck that noise.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: evil_erdlu on March 12, 2009, 04:40:51 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 12, 2009, 03:05:45 AM
If anything, I'd like to see more magickers being afraid of other magickers.  I mean, just because you're a Whiran doesn't mean you know everything about what that Krathi over there can do.

Eh.. But it's a complex situation.. Often you end up examining each and every 'weapon' of other elements and seeking defences against them. So you often cooperate even more with other elementalists.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Agent_137 on March 12, 2009, 05:25:21 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 12, 2009, 03:05:45 AM
The same goes for every other type of 'gicker...when your supposed "buddy's" magick starts to flare up, you have no fucking idea whether it's going to buff your stats or check-mate your ass.  Fuck that noise.

This is one of the things i love about this business.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: rishenko on March 12, 2009, 04:50:52 PM
Why would anybody attempt to wrestle a fucking bear?

Why would anybody hunt a dragon?

Why would anybody put themselves face to face with Death, knowing that their doom is quite imminent?

Not everybody is completely sane, not everybody is rooted in the reality of their situation.  And... some people are loyal enough to a cause or have been mentally coerced/trained/braind-washed into giving up their lives for their profession.

While I agree that it's relatively far-fetched for somebody to go hunting a magicker day after day, there would be people, if ordered, trained or conditioned into accepting such a bleak and deadly way of life, that would do their duty - even if it was a duty that practically guaranteed death, dismemberment, or worse.

Quote from: Alfred Tennyson - The Charge of the Light Brigade
"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

3.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 12, 2009, 04:57:11 PM
This thread had the effect I thought it would, hah!

You've just increased the number of magickers by +10.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Qzzrbl on March 12, 2009, 05:39:33 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh, who said it best
Magickers are not people.  They are half demon things that eat babies, lurk in shadows, and can strike you with a curse to make your genitalia swell to the size of a wagon which then starts to try to choke the life out of you. 

Maybe if magickers started acting this way.....

Instead of getting offended when you try to treat them as such....

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: spawnloser on March 12, 2009, 05:54:36 PM
Oh, maybe because they were raised as a normal person for all of their life and they'd like nothing but to be regarded and accepted as a normal person that they should suddenly change into a fire-farting demon that hates everyone else?  Yeah, good plan.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on March 12, 2009, 05:55:08 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on March 12, 2009, 05:54:36 PM
Oh, maybe because they were raised as a normal person for all of their life and they'd like nothing but to be regarded and accepted as a normal person that they should suddenly change into a fire-farting demon that hates everyone else?  Yeah, good plan.

Something like this, yes.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Zoltan on March 12, 2009, 06:06:49 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 12, 2009, 05:39:33 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh, who said it best
Magickers are not people.  They are half demon things that eat babies, lurk in shadows, and can strike you with a curse to make your genitalia swell to the size of a wagon which then starts to try to choke the life out of you. 

Maybe if magickers started acting this way.....

Instead of getting offended when you try to treat them as such....

Just a thought.

Dude, just hate them even more. It's not rocket surgery.

I had a mundane dwarf once that found himself working with the gemmed a lot, but he -hated- those bastards; he only worked with them because it aided his focus. He wasn't so stupid as to threaten them or anything like that, but he never really hid his feelings. His hatred was only fueled when the wigglers tried coming off as normal, or if his friends treated them with respect.

What I'm trying to say... if your character's views "offend" a gemmer trying to live normally, GOOD. Keep it up. You'll probably receive a kudos from me.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Agent_137 on March 12, 2009, 06:08:53 PM
magickers start as normal humans and only turn into true monsters after years of being treated like one. SO GET TO WORK HATING ON THEM.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: titansfan on March 12, 2009, 06:22:26 PM
Agreed. I personally like the hatred from other PC's whenever I play a 'gicker. It creates the kind of environment I expect and plan towards. It almost throws me everytime someone acts nice to me, I actually get mad IG cause I think they just want to use me or trick me. I vote yes to the emotionally distraught and untrusting mages. IT'S ZALANTHAS, BE AN ASSHOLE!
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 12, 2009, 07:15:17 PM
Quote from: Agent_137 on March 12, 2009, 06:08:53 PM
magickers start as normal humans and only turn into true monsters after years of being treated like one. SO GET TO WORK HATING ON THEM.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: LoD on March 13, 2009, 01:05:16 PM
Fear and suspicion is frequently based on prejudice and ignorance.  And that ignorance and prejudice is usually developed from a lack of experience or knowledge.

It's much easier to fear something that is rarely seen, rarely observed, and rarely encountered.  However, there are several obstacles in the game working against that prescribed set of behavior, which is why I feel it's largely an OOC-driven and artificial want that magickers be universally "feared and hated".

One reason is because a high degree of magicker-mundane interaction happens within the confines of a heavily populated and fairly lawful city-state.  The people there might fear or mistrust magickers, but they also know how the law works.  It's an environment thick with social rules.  Rules of correct and incorrect behavior.  Rules that your character will have come to trust will keep them safe as long as they obey the important ones.

Despite that, there are still plenty of reasons why people would take action against what most would consider a superior and deadly adversary.  Hunger, desperation, drug addiction, madness, hatred, fear, self-defense, self-preservation, survival -- take your pick.  There are plenty of situations where people might forgo or embrace their fear of something out of necessity.

However, that biggest reason (IMHO) is that many players have simply begun to feel cornered by magick.

Not in the literal sense, where there's a magicker physically blocking their character in a corner, but in the sense that wherever you go, you can't seem to get away from magick or magickers.  Plots with magickers.  Encounters with magickers.  Taverns with magickers.  Streets with magickers.  Slums, mansions, cities, wilderness, magickers, magickers, magickerrs, magickers.

What generally happens when you chase an animal?  It runs.  Out of fear, out of instinct, out of past experience.  However, what happens when you corner that fearful animal?  Almost all of them will defend themselves by whatever means possible.

Many players, and their characters, have probably been trying to "run away" from magick and magickers for years out of fear, out of instinct, out of past experience.  Except that the consistent presence of magick and magickal characters has eventually "cornered" them with the understanding that no matter where they run, what they do, or where they go, they will likely have to deal with magickers directly.  And of that realization is borne the same "fight or flight" notion that you see with animals.

You don't need a physical situation to trigger a cornered response.  You just need the sense that you cannot get away from something perceived as a threat.  It's only natural to forgo your fear and defend yourself by whatever means possible.

We're still animals, after all.

-LoD
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: titansfan on March 13, 2009, 01:54:28 PM
Very nicely put LoD. I like it.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on March 13, 2009, 02:00:50 PM
LoD, why you gotta be right all the time?
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 13, 2009, 02:10:40 PM
In before IAWLOD.. Oh, wait, I'm too late :(
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 13, 2009, 02:36:29 PM
That's more of an OOC response LoD. I don't believe, in general, that it is true ICly. For the Allanaki, nothing has changed really. For the Tuluki, nothing has changed really. Players have an OOC perception that things have changed, and they do. But ICly, things aren't any different in regards to magickers. Simply because there are more pc gemmers being seen in Allanak, it does not mean IC that there are suddenly more magickers. They're there all the time.
Because some players OOCly feel this way, it does not mean that things have changed IC and that players have a free pass to act upon those OOC desires in character.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your post, and if I am, I apologize in advance, that seems to be what you're saying.
Ignorance is -usually- developed from a lack of experience or knowledge. Not -always-.Iin the case of magickers, it not only develops from ignorance but is literally bred into most Zalanthans from birth.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Salt Merchant on March 13, 2009, 02:44:37 PM
A simple solution to the whole issue:

Make the gemmed the equivalent of a desert tribe by moving them lock, stock and barrel to a remote location (one place easily comes to mind), still overseen by templars and soldiers.

Players of mundanes get to play MundaneMud as per their wishes, with ne'er a spell or mage in sight, no matter how many gemmed there are.

Players of gemmed form a cosy community just like desert elf tribes do. They'd hardly notice any different in interaction, given the social exclusion from all the city's groups. Maybe they even work toward creating a local paradise. An interesting trade dynamic develops, if gemmed are banned from Allanak itself.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 13, 2009, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: jhunter on March 13, 2009, 02:36:29 PM
That's more of an OOC response LoD. [Among other things noted that I concur with]

IAWLODLOLJK

IAWJH
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: LoD on March 13, 2009, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: jhunter on March 13, 2009, 02:36:29 PM
That's more of an OOC response LoD. I don't believe, in general, that it is true ICly. For the Allanaki, nothing has changed really. For the Tuluki, nothing has changed really. Players have an OOC perception that things have changed, and they do. But ICly, things aren't any different in regards to magickers. Simply because there are more pc gemmers being seen in Allanak, it does not mean IC that there are suddenly more magickers. They're there all the time.
Because some players OOCly feel this way, it does not mean that things have changed IC and that players have a free pass to act upon those OOC desires in character.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your post, and if I am, I apologize in advance, that seems to be what you're saying.
Ignorance is -usually- developed from a lack of experience or knowledge. Not -always-.Iin the case of magickers, it not only develops from ignorance but is literally bred into most Zalanthans from birth.

I imagine you can honestly expect a mixture of OOC and IC reactions by characters toward magick, partially dependent upon the longevity of a given character.  This isn't to say that I would condone such OOC motivation, I'm merely addressing the issue and explaining my perception of the problem.  The proliferation of magick, despite it being described as being rare and mysterious, is a contradiction that only serves to perpetuate the issues described in my post.

In the city-state of Allanak, magickers have the same rights as other commoners.  They live close by, frequent the same establishments, suffer the same punishments by the soldiers, and so I wouldn't expect to the see the same degree of naked fear and hatred expressed toward magickers as I would of a northern born character who has never had the chance or opportunity to witness, mingle with, speak to, or observe any known magickers.

You cannot sustain a black and white perspective in a world of color, and that is what Zalanthas paints with its current culture.  Claiming that every mundane would react the same way when encountering a magicker would be as unfair as saying that every magicker should react the same way to encountering a mundane.  The lines are blurred by history and context.

Mojo, a newly approved desert elf of the SLK may not have had a run-in with the magicker-of-the-month claiming ownership of some water hole on their lands, but his sustained and virtual tribe surely has encountered and dealt with them enough to teach him, from birth, that it's been their experience a spear through the gut works just as well as hiding in the grass.

Crusher, an experienced soldier in the Arm of the Dragon in Allanak might have spent his first five years shivering in his boots every time he was forced to withstand the company of a magicker, but after nearly fifteen years he's made his peace with his chances based purely on statistics and experience.

Jimbo, a career logger out of Tuluk may have been approached by an invisible voice one day while chopping lumber in the scrub, only to scream and flee madly into the city-state where he promptly cowered against a wall and sobbed himself to sleep out of fear.

My point is that the world is going to react differently to magick, and much of it is going to have shed its paralytic shock in the face of most things magickal due to consistent exposure.  Your character might have been bred from birth to believe that people call templars "Faithful Lord/Lady" -- because they do.  Your character might have been bred from birth to believe that elves are too proud to ride kanks -- because they don't.  Your character might have been bred from birth to believe that Thexi has an endless supply of waterskins -- because he does.

And when someone says that you've been bred to believe that magickers are fire-breathing demons that eat babies and steal souls in the night -- tell that to gemmed at table 5 who just ordered the chicken kickers and are buying you a round of ale.

The world that handles magickers with levels of absolute fear and hatred isn't the one that we play in.

-LoD
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: spawnloser on March 13, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
The point others are making is that they wouldn't be taught the things you're saying they would be, LoD.  They'd be told about occasions where a spear through the gut killed a magicker, but there will be so many other stories about magickers that wiped out entire hunting parties.  Which story will stick with someone for longer?  That militia guy?  Yeah, sure, he's had to deal with them so isn't scared just to be around them... but to hunt them?  He's likely also seen gemmers working for Templars do things that would scare ten of him, reinforcing his fear, not reducing it.

I believe that people wanting to play MundaneMUD as SaltMerchant so aptly coined the phrase because they like the Conan type and dislike the Merlin type have preconceived ideas of what certain words/phrases mean... like Low Fantasy, which does not mean Low Magick, though people claim they are synonyms.  Many have said they are not.  Who's right?  The staff is when they say that people are raised to hate and fear magickers.  It is OOC motivation (and this is clear to me) that causes some people to cause their characters to get over the fear and go hunting magickers, no matter the justifications or rationalizations.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 13, 2009, 03:54:40 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on March 13, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
It is OOC motivation (and this is clear to me) that causes some people to cause their characters to get over the fear and go hunting magickers, no matter the justifications or rationalizations.

My God, we're in agreement.  :o
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: LoD on March 13, 2009, 04:40:05 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on March 13, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
It is OOC motivation (and this is clear to me) that causes some people to cause their characters to get over the fear and go hunting magickers, no matter the justifications or rationalizations.

I don't want this to degrade into is a contest between players who enjoy magickers and players who enjoy mundanes going back and forth trying to make a claim that their role-play and reasoning is obviously the correct one.  And perhaps the following statement will better highlight the avenue of thought that I'm pursuing.

I don't believe that the status quo projected by the documentation and expected by the playerbase can honestly be met under the current system.

The expectation of many is for all three parties (mundanes, magickers, and the documentation) to hold true to their respective parts of the bargain.  Mundanes would genuinely be fearful and hateful of powerful magicks should they rear their ugly head in their normally non-magickal world.  Magickers would be careful and fearful of discovery, struggling internally with their "gifts" and trying to determine what kind of lives they would have where social interaction is almost prohibitive.  And the game world would more properly meter out magickal roles to help sustain a feeling of "rarity" and "mystery" about magick.

However, none of these three things seems to ever hold up on its promise.

Magickers complain that mundanes are out there hunting them with OOC motivations.  Mundanes complain that there are too many magickers and that they stay in solitude only to OOCly "power up" enough to handle most mundane encounters.  And the documentation says that magick is rare and mysterious, but that is far from the truth due to many of the changes that have been discussed to death in other threads.

I believe the entire system has been flawed for many years, and that the entire setup is contradictory.  Appropriate displays of fear, mistrust, and hatred toward magickers are often met with accusations of intolerance or punishment from authority figures.  The expectation of mundanes to always treat magickers with same levels of naked fear and hostility is inherently flawed, but even if it weren't -- that setup is a horrible model to use when so many people enjoy the current magicker model.

For example, if you consider a blank canvas as the potential for interaction between a mundane and a magicker with dark colors representing loathing and hatred and bright colors representing tolerance and friendship, we aren't providing players with a blank canvas or a full range of colors with which to paint.

It seem as if the system is designed for players to start with a canvas painted black and the pallet they're given to detail the canvas with their life experiences containing only dark colors.  If you request a bright color, or attempt to start with a fresh canvas -- you're somehow working against the spirit of the documentation or doing something out of OOC motivations.  And that's a terrible shame.

It's also hugely unfair to the magicker characters to be forced into these narrow roles where they have to constantly fight against this artificial hatred and fear when many of them clearly want to be productive members of a team, a society, or a family.  I don't know why we can't support a system that wants the entire spectrum of interaction between these two elements represented by plausible, not just possible, strokes.

It's not worthwhile to belabor this topic for Arm 1, because I think too much would have to change in order for the expectations to be more realistic.  However, it's good discussion to have toward how to handle such discussions in the future.  As such, I'll leave my points as they are and intend for this discussion not to be about who is right, but a statement detailing the elements I feel could be improved in the next iteration.

-LoD
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 13, 2009, 05:11:30 PM
I can agree with alot of what you've stated in the last few posts LoD. I also agree with Spawnloser as well. The problem is that "rare and mysterious" are relative things and gemmers in particular change things up for those playing in Allanak in comparision to those playing in other locations. Players -are- attempting to take the documentation regarding magick as "black and white" when it never has been nor will ever be the way the game is designed. The way I see it, those are a general outline, not a blanket rule for the gameworld as a whole.
Plenty of things work excellent in the "grey area" and that makes things more realistic, IMO. The problem is that players often misinterpret the documentation and try to make things "black and white" instead of taking into account the differences in cultures throughout the gameworld.
It can and does work just fine the way it's designed (and for lack of a better way to put it) provided players take off the blinders and stop trying to make things strictly black and white.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 13, 2009, 05:46:40 PM
Quote from: jhunter on March 13, 2009, 02:36:29 PM
Players have an OOC perception that things have changed, and they do. But ICly, things aren't any different in regards to magickers.

If we can't use IC events to gauge what is happening ICly, then what can we use?

If there's hordes of gemmed PCs infesting the Gaj, then there's hordes of gemmers infesting the Gaj. There's no alternative explanation.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 13, 2009, 05:52:36 PM
Quote from: number13 on March 13, 2009, 05:46:40 PM
If we can't use IC events to gauge what is happening ICly, then what can we use?

If there's hordes of gemmed PCs infesting the Gaj, then there's hordes of gemmers infesting the Gaj. There's no alternative explanation.

You're basing perceptions off of player characters, as opposed to the virtual population.

Second, there are not "hordes" of gemmed infesting the Gaj. It's obvious by your choice of words that you harbor OOC distaste for mages.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 13, 2009, 06:06:40 PM
Exactly. Because there are more pc mages there it doesn't negate the -fact- that virtually there are likely a few gemmers there all the time. Nothing ICly has changed.
Because the staff opens up halflings for pcs does not mean that there are suddenly more halflings. Or that when a noble house is closed for play that is ceases ICly to exist. Or any tribal clan or city clan for that matter. Unless IC events have them being destroyed or wiped out, the are -always- there virtually.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 13, 2009, 06:10:27 PM
From the documentation:

QuoteVirtual Non-Player Characters [VNPCs]


Zalanthas is a world full of people beyond those that are represented by the player characters (PCs) and non-player characters (NPCs) that you see in the game. There are thousands of other lives that go on behind the scenes. Sometimes the game will utilize those (such as virtual witness to crimes). Be aware that even though you don't see any NPCs around, if the room description specifies people being around, their likely are virtual eyes watching you.

Feel free to casually interact with VNPCs, but do be careful to not 'power emote' them, or use them to coded benefit of your character. They are to be considered passive entities, who help to provide flavor and realism for the game.
See Also:

NPCs, PCs
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Pale Horse on March 13, 2009, 06:33:04 PM
Where is that post where someone was mentioning their bigoted Uncle/Father/Cousin?  Where he was raised to loath african-americans, then was forced into working with one and came to the point where he even invited the guy over to his house, only to say after he'd left: I guess there's one good nigger out of the bunch? (I apologize if I've offended anyone).

In the end, the guy was able to get over his innate prejudice for one member of a hated minority, to the degree that he worked with, interacted and even socialized a bit with him.  But did he truly get over all of it?  Maybe he still thought of him as less intelligent, less capable..or maybe he found him to have a superior capability then himself but were this the case, and this has been my experience when probing the thoughts behind prejudice, then he would never view him as a real person.  Real is white.  This intelligent, capable, able black is an interesting, valuable, likable creature.  Outwardly, you may show friendship, liking and even care for this fascinating black, but deep down in your thoughts and the places where we do all of our subconscious thinking, he/she is still less than you are.

I feel this is the same way with Magickers in Allanak (we already know about Tuluk, and the individual tribes have their own cultural view of Magickers in their respective documentation).  A large majority would sooner have nothing to do with a Magicker, would segregate them out, assign restrictions on them, etc.  There is the minority that through their dealings with them, might come to display the above mentioned sentiments.  There are even those who would possess the open-mindedness or lack of bias enough that they might *gasp* actually like a magicker as a person!.  Maybe enough to *shudder* even form a close friendship/intimate relationship.

In the end, I would say that my views on the state of Magicker prejudice in Allanak equate to the level of prejudice leveled against African-Americans during the years of Segregation in the United States.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 13, 2009, 06:35:22 PM
That sounds like a DesertChoad or WP story to me.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Thunkkin on March 13, 2009, 06:49:42 PM
I think it would help if there were more superstitions in general.

I think it would help if the superstitions about magickers were more clearly defined.

As it is, most of Zalanthan culture is actually very, very pragmatic and reasonable.  There are a few cultural exceptions, such as city elves that can't run but won't ride.  Magickers fall into the same category.  In a harsh world in which survival is the number one priority and everyone seems to react to power in a fairly canny and pragmatic fashion ... wildly unreasonable beliefs should have some "meat" to them. 

When you're dying of thirst - you will drink anything.  Anything.  Yet some tribal groups barely hanging on to existence shun water mages and believe that water mages will make their toes swell to the size of kanks or something.  Ok.  That's fine.  But if you expect players to have their characters act in unreasonable, unpragmatic ways - then fleshing that behaviour out beyond "you're scared of them and stupid enough to believe anything about them" might go a long way in giving people guidelines. 

Let me be clear.  I'm -not- arguing that people should accept magickers.  I'm -not- arguing that beliefs that are not pragmatic are not realistic.  I -am- arguing that giving players more depth to their fears would make those fears easier to play.

I suppose I'm just echoing LoD ... instructing players "Be really, really scared! Magickers could do anything! Need I say more?!" doesn't result in particularly colorful or satisfying long-term play.  On the other hand, I think, a clear list of "it is commonly believed that magickers do X, X, and X and the majority of the population would be convinced that magickers do X" would give all of us mundanes a better foundation for our responses to magickers (and I'm lumping 'gemmed' into the magicker category for the sake of this post).
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 13, 2009, 07:00:25 PM
Maybe IF something bad could happen to your PC if you drank water from a water cleric, even if it's a 1% chance, then that would certainly help.

You could add a whole bunch of 'side-effects' that would go with drinking/eating/using anything made or cast on you by a magicker.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Pale Horse on March 13, 2009, 07:07:42 PM
Thinking about it some more, I've come to a justification of the "It's a MAGICKER! OMG hate hate hate!" extreme supported by the documentation (if that's really true).

A long time ago, magick destroyed the world.  Hate it.

Time heals all wounds (except the desert).  Hate lessens.  Tribes relay on a few powerful magicker members of their own to survive, or raid from others and eschew magick.

City-states arise under the power of what?  A sorcerer and a warrior/psionicist.  Theyz gots the power, baby. 

How do they keep that power?  Eliminate competition.

Allanak/Tek: My subjects, magickers are baby-eating, demon-born, water wasters that should be reviled and kept in their place.  I, your mighty God-King, will keep you safe from them, so long as you obey and fear me.  To all you magickers, you are hated and cast out, hunted and slain.  Come to me, serve me, and my shadow will extend over you as well.

Tuluk/Muk: All are welcome to bask in my Radience..Oh..shit..Who let the Elementals out?  Scratch that idea.  New plan: All are welcome to bask in my Radience..except magickers.  They're foul, disgusting abominations of nature and you all do the world, and more importantly Myself, a favor by killing them on sight.  My Faithful and Chosen shall guide and protect you.

In a world where Might=Right, those with the Might know that the biggest threat to their power over those without it, are others like themselves.  The Kings of each city-state, imo, are probably the biggest instigators of the continuation of magicker-hate, to keep the competition in check.  On the same vein, if they can attract and control sources of lesser Might, they themselves are made the more powerful.  Tek does it through the Gemmed (Sorcerer relaying on what he knows best:magick) and stomping them into submission or eliminating the sources of greatest threat (Steinal and it's Vivaduan/Sorcerer King).  Muk (warrior/mindbender) does it through what he knows best (hence the Jihaens and Lirathans) since keeping the magickers around didn't prove to be such a great idea.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: SMuz on March 13, 2009, 07:30:06 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 13, 2009, 07:00:25 PM
Maybe IF something bad could happen to your PC if you drank water from a water cleric, even if it's a 1% chance, then that would certainly help.

You could add a whole bunch of 'side-effects' that would go with drinking/eating/using anything made or cast on you by a magicker.
Drinking lots of magick water may or may result in karma burn. Do so at your own risk.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Semper on March 13, 2009, 07:36:25 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 13, 2009, 07:00:25 PM
Maybe IF something bad could happen to your PC if you drank water from a water cleric, even if it's a 1% chance, then that would certainly help.

You could add a whole bunch of 'side-effects' that would go with drinking/eating/using anything made or cast on you by a magicker.

Even if you as a player know there are no side effects, your character doesn't. Sadly, this isn't often the case IG.

I say, there just needs to be some uprising of magickers or something like a magickal atomic bomb that directly effects the game world, and thus the characters and players. I think it's been too long since people as a whole have had a need to fear magick.

Same with Tuluk/Allanak hatred... But that's going on a different tangent.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 13, 2009, 07:46:47 PM
Quote from: Semper on March 13, 2009, 07:36:25 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 13, 2009, 07:00:25 PM
Maybe IF something bad could happen to your PC if you drank water from a water cleric, even if it's a 1% chance, then that would certainly help.

You could add a whole bunch of 'side-effects' that would go with drinking/eating/using anything made or cast on you by a magicker.
Even if you as a player know there are no side effects, your character doesn't. Sadly, this isn't often the case IG.

First of all, my character never hear those stories, people always say, you were raised with a fear of magickers because you heard stories, well, what are the stories? I certainly never hear them in game. If all you ever hear are stories being passed from generation to generation and nothing really seems to be happening, then you would think that those stories would start getting diluted and someone, desperate as he may be, would start testing out said stories, then after a while, maybe people would start wising up and realizing that it's not as bad as you might think..

I don't know, I guess I just agree with LoD, as much as you might shove the few lines of documentations that tell me that I should be afraid of magickers, and that I should believe the stories that I never hear about in game, and that I should just really fear.. Oh, meh, I've been doing this for 10+ years now, same conversation, same topic, nothing changes.. People are certainly not going to change now if they haven't 10 years ago.

Going in circle for a year might be fun, going in circle for a whole 10 years starts getting old. I'm tired. Play your magicker as you see fit. I hate to say it, but players are not going to change, if a change is to occur, Staff has to make it happen this time.

The good ol' "Be the change you want to see" is not going to work, when it comes to magick. Nope. Sorry.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 13, 2009, 07:51:15 PM
Heh. Malken, I agree.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 13, 2009, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: Eloran on March 13, 2009, 05:52:36 PM
It's obvious by your choice of words that you harbor OOC distaste for mages.

Well, yeah.

For the record, I don't have a problem with subtle hedge 'wizards' or the *rare* insanely powerful magicker.  It's the middle of the road buff-bots mingling with mundane plotlines that break immersion for me.  Whenever they appear en masse, I start to think of the game as a spreadsheet.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on March 13, 2009, 08:33:56 PM
Quote from: number13 on March 13, 2009, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: Eloran on March 13, 2009, 05:52:36 PM
It's obvious by your choice of words that you harbor OOC distaste for mages.

Well, yeah.

For the record, I don't have a problem with subtle hedge 'wizards' or the *rare* insanely powerful magicker.  It's the middle of the road buff-bots mingling with mundane plotlines that break immersion for me.  Whenever they appear en masse, I start to think of the game as a spreadsheet.

I never understood this.  To me, "low fantasy" means there's a lack of good and evil, a lack of idealization, but not a lack of magick.  Okay, so I never saw magick back when I played in 2001, but when I came back in 2007, the prevalence of magick, even before I could play a mage, never bothered me once.  I like magick, and I like Arm's take on magick.  I guess I can understand preferring the mundane side of things, but the existence/presence of magick has never once broken my "immersion."
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Eloran on March 13, 2009, 08:39:20 PM
Quote from: number13 on March 13, 2009, 08:27:28 PM
It's the middle of the road buff-bots mingling with mundane plotlines that break immersion for me.

The presence of mages breaks your immersion? I think we've found the problem.  ::)

For the record: Having separate plot lines for mages/mundanes splits the playerbase and is stupid. If you don't want to play around mages, go play a mud that doesn't have magick.

EDIT: Granted, separate plots have their place, but in regards to world-changing plots, I prefer story lines that can let mages/mundanes either work together or against each other, as opposed to parallel plots that differentiate in the type of guilds involved in either.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 13, 2009, 08:45:57 PM
Quote
The presence of mages breaks your immersion?

No. The presence of buff-bots breaks my immersion.  If magick=mundane by virtue of it's commonality then it's not really magick to me.

I like the fantasy elements in Arm, I seek them out. The gemmed and other common elementalists cheapen it for me by making the fantastic less than awesome.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Jenred on March 13, 2009, 08:47:20 PM
Every time this subject comes up, which its now on its like 100th iteration, I feel it necessary to point out the helpfiles which state that magickers are employed by all varieties of people for different things. Traveling parties, etc. And that almost all of them can find employment. Implying that they ARE hired regularly, and then subsequently some kind of tolerance would build up over the ages.

I feel that it is necessary to make the distinction between rational fear - fear that is based on actual events that have happened, and unrational fear, fear that has no basis because there are no supportive events.

Currently based on the history most people know and would be considered common knowledge, in Allanak, magickers are bad, yes, but not the end of the world. The gems they wear are supposed to reassure the populace that A: they are under the control of the Highlord, and B: they have surrendered themselves to the Highlord. Making their risk very low.

Ungemmed magickers, rogue magickers, Defilers, etc, on the other hand are the ones that historically have been the problem. With a wanton disregard for normalcy they have caused all kinds of problems over the history of the world.

So it would be safe to assume that the magickers you see around are nothing more then distasteful elements (no pun intended) of society that you and everyone else has been dealing with as long as Allanak has been around. The quarter has always been there (as far as you can remember), and it won't be leaving anytime soon.

Magickers are employed by the templarate, the army, and at least one noble house. They are mysterious, and different, so you distrust/dislike them. They are not the equivalent to Mindbenders or Defilers.

It is up to individual players to decide, based on their characters history/experience, what level of distrust/disdain they will approach magickers with. And while there are situations in which they'd be accepted, players that accept them should (imo) never become actively involved in making others accept them. And characters that display a like towards magickers should be viewed with equal distrust.

Outright hatred in the South, should be another rare commodity based on character experience. And the exception other then the rule.

In Tuluk, magickers of any and all variety are bad, and I think there is little to no problem here because of their general anonymity.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Jenred on March 13, 2009, 08:48:41 PM
Quote from: number13 on March 13, 2009, 08:45:57 PM
Quote
The presence of mages breaks your immersion?

No. The presence of buff-bots breaks my immersion.  If magick=mundane by virtue of it's commonality then it's not really magick to me.

I like the fantasy elements in Arm, I seek them out. The gemmed and other common elementalists cheapen it for me by making the fantastic less than awesome.

Magick in Allanak is not fantastic, it is not rare, and it is not uncommon.  Magickers can be portrayed as any other character, as a normal person with an ailment, or perhaps more.

The problem is people creating an expectation of what magick should be, and then getting upset when their image is ruined.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 13, 2009, 08:56:12 PM
Quote

The problem is people creating an expectation of what magick should be, and then getting upset when their image is ruined.

Pretty much, though I didn't create expectation wholesale. It is what I experienced in Allanak prior to what seems to me an uptick in the -visible- magicker population. Upset is a strong word. I'm done with "upset".  For me, this is more of a discussion of game design than a thread that will lead to down a path of change for the mud.

In my mind, it's the 'magicker side' of the argument that's getting upset. I've found a very good solution to my own personal magicker problem, and it's worked out mostly fine for the past five or so characters.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 13, 2009, 09:07:07 PM
Quote from: Jenred on March 13, 2009, 08:48:41 PM

The problem is people creating an expectation of what magick should be, and then getting upset when their image is ruined.

QFT.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Agent_137 on March 14, 2009, 05:50:00 AM
i'd just like to say I've noticed some cool mundane/gemmer interactions lately. Folks glaring and being grumpy at gemmers and gemmers doing the same back. It's really made the game much more exciting to just watch. kudos.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Jdr on March 14, 2009, 12:34:27 PM
Guys, at the risk of IC INFOZ, I play a gemmer. I go around practically painting a picture that screams 'PICK ON ME I AM A MAGICKER' because none of you seem to be able to get it into your own heads to take the initiative to do it.

You STILL fail to do it. Blame yourselves if you don't see enough magick-hatin'.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: FantasyWriter on March 14, 2009, 12:36:25 PM
I was of the same opinion when I played my Gemmer.  Noone ever acted like the were scared/hated/even disliked me.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: spawnloser on March 14, 2009, 12:51:20 PM
It's really very simple.  You have to disregard all that you know OOC and become more superstitious IC.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Majikal on March 14, 2009, 12:53:50 PM
Quote from: Jdr on March 14, 2009, 12:34:27 PM
Guys, at the risk of IC INFOZ, I play a gemmer. I go around practically painting a picture that screams 'PICK ON ME I AM A MAGICKER' because none of you seem to be able to get it into your own heads to take the initiative to do it.

You STILL fail to do it. Blame yourselves if you don't see enough magick-hatin'.


Also, I've noticed alot of times it takes someone to get the ball rolling. With nobody willing to hop into the RPz nothing usually happens. We've all experienced sitting at a packed bar with nothing going on and then one person throws out a 'fuck you necker' comment and gets everyone up and going. Start your gicker hatin' and I'm sure other folks will join in on the gicker hatin'.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 14, 2009, 01:11:29 PM
The most I usually experience with a gemmer is mundane pcs ignoring mine. Unless they catch me outside the gates with no obvious spells up and it appears that I'm not a Krathi, which is rather silly. You'd think it'd be the opposite. Fuck with me while you're under the protection of the soldiers and the templars and avoid me like my mere gaze will cause your whole family's genitals to melt if there's no one around to protect you.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 14, 2009, 04:35:06 PM
Yes please.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 14, 2009, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: jhunter on March 14, 2009, 01:11:29 PM
The most I usually experience with a gemmer is mundane pcs ignoring mine. Unless they catch me outside the gates with no obvious spells up and it appears that I'm not a Krathi, which is rather silly. You'd think it'd be the opposite. Fuck with me while you're under the protection of the soldiers and the templars and avoid me like my mere gaze will cause your whole family's genitals to melt if there's no one around to protect you.

The problem is that I know some gemmers who are dying to be abused and insulted, but I also know some gemmers that would not hesitate to bribe a soldier with their immense wealth and/or spend their time finding ways to utterly destroy you for the insult afterward. I can see how the player of a mundane PC would hesitate before doing so. I know I would be more than happy to receive more insults and abuse, but I also know that a few character's back, my character's brother was killed by a militia who was bribed by a gemmer for insulting the gemmer.

It's the same problem raiders and victims face, really.. The fact that you can't trust 100% of the playerbase to act in a mature way that would benifit to us all instead of whacking the first guy that annoys you.

Actually, just to add to my example, there was a pretty awesome bard not too long ago who would insult the gemmers in the funniest of ways, but again, that PC didn't last very long.. It's like you can only insult gemmers if you want to play a flavor character that won't last long until your next serious character.

Now people will say, "Well, you shouldn't insult a guy with a bazooka, really, so just ignore them and walk out and make them feel isolated..", which just brings the thread to a full circle for the 50th time since the thread was started.

Yup, see? I didn't even finish editing my post that Salt Merchant replied with something I knew would be replied. AGAIN, NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNLESS THE STAFF DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

If the Staff don't do anything about it, then there's no problem, and we can all move along.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Salt Merchant on March 14, 2009, 04:51:07 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 14, 2009, 04:43:48 PM
The problem is that I know some gemmers who are dying to be abused and insulted, but I also know some gemmers that would not hesitate to bribe a soldier with their immense wealth and/or spend their time finding ways to utterly destroy you for the insult afterward. I can see how the player of a mundane PC would hesitate before doing so. I know I would be more than happy to receive more insults and abuse, but I also know that a few character's back, my character's brother was killed by a militia who was bribed by a gemmer for insulting the gemmer.

How is this different from insulting someone else with power? If your character insulted a noble greviously, would you expect him to live? A templar? A senior agent of a GMH? Why should a magicker withhold retribution if everyone else is justified to do as they please?
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 14, 2009, 04:58:55 PM
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 14, 2009, 04:51:07 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 14, 2009, 04:43:48 PM
The problem is that I know some gemmers who are dying to be abused and insulted, but I also know some gemmers that would not hesitate to bribe a soldier with their immense wealth and/or spend their time finding ways to utterly destroy you for the insult afterward. I can see how the player of a mundane PC would hesitate before doing so. I know I would be more than happy to receive more insults and abuse, but I also know that a few character's back, my character's brother was killed by a militia who was bribed by a gemmer for insulting the gemmer.

How is this different from insulting someone else with power? If your character insulted a noble greviously, would you expect him to live? A templar? A senior agent of a GMH? Why should a magicker withhold retribution if everyone else is justified to do as they please?

Redundant thread is redundant.

You know what? I don't care at all, I'm just typing things that I know will be said over and over again. My current gemmer feels like a rockstar, he has a bunch of mundane friends, a small fortune, he'd have a whole bunch of (mundane) lovers if he felt like it and respect.

For every mundane that insults me, I can turn judo-reverse five mundane gemmer-hater characters into my best buddies/allies/lovers. (Longest mundane to show hatred toward my PC was maybe three interactions long..)

I can FEEL like they are trying really hard, though. It just never really lasts. They break after a (short) while.

Welcome to Allanak, baby. I got me some nice black bling bling around my neck.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Salt Merchant on March 14, 2009, 05:07:00 PM
This is why I suggest, again, that the gemmed be moved "off-site".

Mundane PCs in Allanak will be left with plenty of opportunites for hate: elves, half-elves and 'rinthi.

This constant dissatisfaction with magickers (mostly meaning the gemmed) and roleplay regarding them will die, die, die. Over time, fear and mystery will be restored.

The gemmed will be just as happy off-site as they are now, especially if their new home is set up to promote more interaction between temples (maybe a common courtyard, for example). The move off-site could even have some cool underlying reason that would give them additional purpose.

Plus other interesting dynamics are developed.

What is there not to like about this idea?
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: X-D on March 14, 2009, 05:21:52 PM
Actually, that bard was killed by accident, do to a sad long standing defect in the mercy command that staff thinks is not a defect.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 14, 2009, 06:12:05 PM
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 14, 2009, 04:51:07 PM
How is this different from insulting someone else with power? If your character insulted a noble greviously, would you expect him to live? A templar? A senior agent of a GMH? Why should a magicker withhold retribution if everyone else is justified to do as they please?

As Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.

Really, the trade off for being gemmed should be a social status resembling a rinthi elf. You might be strong in your own territory with your friends backing you up, but should be garbage in Allanak proper.  Otherwise, from a purely gamist standpoint, there isn't much of a balancing factor, and for players interested in the gamist aspect there's currently not much of a point to playing a mundane in Allanak.

That mob of magicker-hating vNPCs is entirely virtual if the game doesn't support it. My half-serious suggestion: stealing from a gemmer or attacking a gemmer with bare fists shouldn't automatically be a crime, unless a Templar is watching or the crime is committed in the Quarter. Maybe, the average soldier doesn't care, and looks the other way.

....

As I've said before, the situation is similar to playing a mundane (the perpetual victim) in a Vampire MUSH.  It's not something people do out of choice. It's something people do because they aren't sitting at the cool kids' table.  These pointless magicker discussions that spring up like clockwork are evidence that the design isn't as good as it could be.  Note that magick here is JUST THE WINDOW DRESSING. It could just as easily be Vampires or Werewolves or spiced-up Mul killing machines or a new class of karma apped Militia.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Rhyden on March 14, 2009, 06:19:18 PM
Nevertheless, that bard is dead, very recent, and totally off-topic. :-*

I would like gemmers to be isolated in a section of Allanak. There's enough gemmers around to sometimes outweigh the mundane PCs. Let the gemmers mingle and clash in their own little area, while leaving the mundanes to deal with their own little mundane lives. There's a point when seeing gemmers is so common, it's hard to role play "that magick fear" instead of just thinking "oh hey, another gemmer, what else is new". I've played maybe two gemmed in the past and both times found it difficult to invoke any kind of fear in the mundanes around because there were so many other gemmers around. This isn't to say magickers can't be scary. They are, trust me. It's just when I see a large group of gemmed around, I'd rather it an extremely rare and 'shake-in-your-boots' experience rather than: "Oh, hey, the gemmer squad is out making rounds at the bar again. How quaint."
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Salt Merchant on March 14, 2009, 06:39:11 PM
QuoteAs Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.

Social power isn't needed for retribution, although it can be useful.

There's also financial power and personal power.

Financial power can be wielded by anyone. That character's brother could have been the one paying the militia to off the magicker just as easily.

Then there's personal power. People also make the mistake of thinking that because a magicker wears a gem, he or she has been totally declawed. It's not so. It just means the magicker needs to plan and be careful, just like any criminal.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 14, 2009, 07:01:20 PM
QuoteAs Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.
Financial power can be wielded by anyone.

Financial power is a kind of social power.  You need the social connections for the coins to mean anything, otherwise they are just weight in your inventory.  For example, a halfling could have a large. But the halfling has no way to spend the large.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: staggerlee on March 14, 2009, 07:03:44 PM
I don't really see how an extensive analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of magickers can possibly help people rp being afraid of their power.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Salt Merchant on March 14, 2009, 07:05:53 PM
Quote from: number13 on March 14, 2009, 07:01:20 PM
QuoteAs Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.
Financial power can be wielded by anyone.

Financial power is a kind of social power.  You need the social connections for the coins to mean anything, otherwise they are just weight in your inventory.  For example, a halfling could have a large. But the halfling has no way to spend the large.

Poor example, because a halfling wouldn't want to spend a large to begin with.

You don't really need to be friends with the person you're bribing. He doesn't have to like you at all, even. You just need to offer enough. Sure, if he's your buddy he might ask less (or maybe even not). But willing to do it for coin means he's mercenary enough to do it if the pay is good enough, regardless, in many cases (so what if there are a few principled hold-outs).
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 14, 2009, 07:20:12 PM
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 14, 2009, 07:05:53 PM
Quote from: number13 on March 14, 2009, 07:01:20 PM
QuoteAs Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.
Financial power can be wielded by anyone.

Financial power is a kind of social power.  You need the social connections for the coins to mean anything, otherwise they are just weight in your inventory.  For example, a halfling could have a large. But the halfling has no way to spend the large.

Poor example, because a halfling wouldn't want to spend a large to begin with.

You don't really need to be friends with the person you're bribing. He doesn't have to like you at all, even. You just need to offer enough. Sure, if he's your buddy he might ask less (or maybe even not). But willing to do it for coin means he's mercenary enough to do it if the pay is good enough, regardless, in many cases (so what if there are a few principled hold-outs).

Who cares if my magicker has 500 'sids or 50000, that wasn't my point at all. My point is that some of you are saying mundane PCs should insult the gemmers more often, but some gemmers just turn around and get you killed if you do it afterward.

Sure, I could get all the gemmers killed as well, by lying to and bribing others, but do I really want to do this? It's certainly not going to help any.

That's why I'm saying that just telling people to be more of this and less of that IS NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING.

Telling us that we need to disregard all that you know OOC and become more superstitious IC isn't going to help anyone either, the playerbase hasn't changed in 10 years (we've had this exact same thread every three months or so), it's certainly not going to change now. That's my point.

Coded changes are what make the playerbase change, not speech. You want the magickers to be more hated and regarded as the abominations that they are? Then you have to put some code into making it so. Make it that you can risk catching crotch rot codedly if my gemmer sits next to you. That'll change some, not telling them that ICly it could happen, even if OOCly, we all know it won't. Sorry to the few guys and girls around that can play it that way, but you are certainly in the minority.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: number13 on March 14, 2009, 10:16:03 PM
QuoteYou don't really need to be friends with the person you're bribing. He doesn't have to like you at all, even. You just need to offer enough. Sure, if he's your buddy he might ask less (or maybe even not). But willing to do it for coin means he's mercenary enough to do it if the pay is good enough, regardless, in many cases (so what if there are a few principled hold-outs).

You are Militiaman Steve:

* If a rinthi elf gives you a large and says, "Go beat the snot out of Amos," you pocket the coins. And possibly beat the snot out of the rinthi elf.
* If Gemmer Joe, who's slept with every available PC in the city, gives you a large and says, "Go beat the snot out of Amos," you probably go beat the snot out of Amos.
* Amos gives you a large and says, "Go beat the snot out of Gemmer Joe" you probably refuse the coins and say, "Can't. Gemmer Joe is too well connected/might melt my face off. Besides, I'm sleeping with him." Or maybe you pocket the coins and beat the snot out of Amos. Regardless, Gemmer Joe is going to be sitting pretty at the end of it.

That's the problem right there, as it relates to the gemmed. They generally hold the cards (socially and powerwise) over every grebber there is. But-- the mundanes are supposed to be holding some of those cards, not just the Vampires (i mean... werewo... no elementalists!). There's a different, yet related, problem with rogue gickers.

I don't want to get into that can of worms.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: jhunter on March 14, 2009, 10:42:27 PM
I'd like to point out that pcs run the risk of retaliation from any pc type they mess with. It's no different for magickers in general, just different from pc to pc regardless of class. You can't expect to be able to fuck with -anyone- on Zalanthas and not watch your back afterward, even if you are a templar.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Gunnerblaster on March 15, 2009, 12:39:35 AM
Quote from: jhunter's signaturePulling a poisoned arrow from the corpse of the brown-haired, black-gemmed man, the desert-tanned, bearded man says, in sirihish: "Well, I don' see wha' de big fuckin' deal is. Dey die jus' de same as always."
Don't like non-mundanes?

Deal with it.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 15, 2009, 12:45:44 AM
Want to stick it to the 'gickers? Join the Legion.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Malken on March 15, 2009, 12:52:05 AM
This thread is now officially declared useless.

Well, boys and girls, looks like we've solved the 'gikers problem once again!

Good job y'all, see you back in two months, huh?
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Pale Horse on March 15, 2009, 12:56:12 AM
Quote from: Malken on March 15, 2009, 12:52:05 AM
This thread is now officially declared useless.

Well, boys and girls, looks like we've solved the 'gikers problem once again!

Good job y'all, see you back in two months, huh?

I'm still sitting in row 5, seat H.

See you all then.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Zoltan on March 15, 2009, 01:37:46 AM
Bah, screw this thread.

I had a good response typed up, but frankly, I'm fucking wasted right now. It was probably much more obnoxious and pointless than this response I'm typing now.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: BuNutzCola on March 15, 2009, 02:54:52 AM
I only really minded the silk-wearing, snobbish, always in your face, giant yellow-tarantula riding through allanak power rangers of about 8 months ago or so, maybe a bit longer.

That was a bad time in Allanak for me, really killed the idea mages are disliked in any way shape or form. They were really more like upper class commoners X-Men.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Morrolan on March 15, 2009, 03:14:57 AM
[sidebar]
Quote from: BuNutzCola on March 15, 2009, 02:54:52 AM
silk-wearing...X-Men.

"Would you prefer yellow spandex?"
[/sidebar]
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Winterless on March 15, 2009, 03:21:34 AM
Quote from: Morrolan on March 15, 2009, 03:14:57 AM
[sidebar]
Quote from: BuNutzCola on March 15, 2009, 02:54:52 AM
silk-wearing...X-Men.

"Would you prefer yellow spandex?"
[/sidebar]

With blue trim and adamanteum (sp?) retractable claws?
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: BuNutzCola on March 15, 2009, 04:31:10 AM
This is Zalanthas. They would have post-metalstripping BONE claws.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Agent_137 on March 15, 2009, 09:37:52 AM
malken,
it seems you are the one repeatedly posting about how one time a gemmer had a friend of yours PKed for talking shit. one time. posting repeatedly about it does not make it more relevant.

everyone else:
Directly insulting -anyone- to the point of revenge always carries its own risk. (If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.-Machiavelli)

magickers are not breeds (most anyway.) Magickers are typically employed by Oash or directly by a templar. If you REALLY hate that salarri sergeat, you would go about hating him differetly than you would a simple breed that took your stool, right? Same with gickers.

I'm not asking you to get creative, but chirst, yes, you will have to do better than just throwing direct insults directly at their face just because they wear a gem. Consider your social status, their race, your race, their employer, their age, their clothes, etc. Maybe they need a glare, and a move to another table instead of spitting on them. Maybe you should just spit on the floor -by- them, instead of kicking their chair.These are all normal calculations ANY zalanthan would do before insulting -anyone-. Unless, of course, your character is drunk. Then have at it!




p.s.

QuoteI only really minded the silk-wearing, snobbish, always in your face, giant yellow-tarantula riding through allanak power rangers of about 8 months ago or so, maybe a bit longer.

I was there for those days, I hated them, and I've did work to keep them from returning ICly and OOCly. 'gickers should honestly never wear silks, and even more never wear them to the gaj. period. Nobles and Templars, if you meet gickers like this and you are in a position to do so, please have them PK'd. (btw, thank you Red Templar for doing exactly that to the Old, Powerful, Silk-Wearing, Magick-Talking Elkrosian who 'had it coming' for so fucking long. You did more to end the x-men days than anyone.)
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: SMuz on March 15, 2009, 09:47:21 AM
This thread is so derailed.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Pale Horse on March 15, 2009, 10:04:53 AM
Quote from: SMuz on March 15, 2009, 09:47:21 AM
This thread is so derailed.

Welcome to the GDB.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Ribbon on March 15, 2009, 10:24:28 AM
*raises her hand*  IjuststartedplayinginAllanakandI'vemetsomereallygoodandtalentedandinterestinggemmedcharacterswhoseemtobeprettycoolaboutthewhole"wehateyoufuckers"rp
andIhopethisthreadisn'tdiscouragingbecausethere'salotofpotentialforfunanytimethereareasetofgoodplayersinoneplace.

*goes back to hiding*

Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Lizzie on March 15, 2009, 10:46:20 AM
I don't think it's a matter of sids, or magickal power...it's a matter of knowing your place.

A gemmer would probably not boast about having that kind of sids in public, because they are tools of the templarate and if a templar learned that one of his gemmers has more sids than he does, said templarate would fix that minor glitch post haste.

A gemmer would probably not boast in public about having lots of magickal power, because if a templar heard of the boasts, he would see that the tongue is no longer capable of wagging. And possibly take a few fingers with it.

A gemmer would probably not instigate in public an arguement with anyone with a "known last name" (such as Tor, or Nenyuk, for example), because the Last Namer has a whole house behind him. A gemmer has nothing behind him.

Gemmers are tools. They are not people, they're like..trained tigers in the circus. Yes, they're dangerous. Yes, they inspire awe and amazement, and some of the kids in the audience want to pet them. But other kids scream and cry and beg to be taken home when they see them, and develop phobias as a result of the trauma. Gemmers are tightly leashed, with collars that have *very* sharp spikes in them around their throats. And should a gemmer forget his place, that collar will be tugged. Gemmers need to remember that. And people who interact with gemmers should also remember that.
Title: Re: Magicker population?
Post by: Nyr on March 15, 2009, 11:30:09 AM
Since this thread isn't serving a purpose anymore and has devolved into the same stuff that these sorts of threads always devolve into, I'll go ahead and lock it with the obligatory "this discussion crops up every couple months anyway regardless of the fact that nothing ever really changes" response, with an additional "if you bring up your same arguments in every thread on this topic, no one is going to read them and everyone is going to just rehash the same arguments they've always had," and a final "if you really want to bring this up but not actually add anything new to the table, I can just set a timer and bump the latest thread on this topic every two months while leaving it locked--everyone wins."

Quote from: Nyr on October 29, 2008, 06:24:55 PM
The good news is that I wrote this response already.

Quote from: Nyr on July 15, 2008, 02:04:43 PM
Quote from: Nyr on June 23, 2008, 01:55:00 PM
...
If you'd like to relive years-old debates/discussions about magickers, you can go
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28005.0.html),
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,25179.0.html),
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,20411.0.html),
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,18361.0.html),
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,20606.0.html),
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28010.0.html),
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,27445.0.html),
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,10330.0.html),
here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,26062.0.html),
and here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,18118.0.html).  (There are more, but I got tired of copying the links into a nonspammy format.)

Players bring this up about once every few months, as you may notice from the links I listed the last time this was brought up. 
I didn't think we were due for another round of "kick the magicker" so soon, though.  At last check, the last spurt of "discussion" happened a month ago.
There was the player-initiated karma-off which resulted in some cessation of who had karma roles, but people still special-apped and some others eventually requested their karma back.
I can't speak for other staff members, but what dakurus said rings true--and it's even been said before by staff members.  People still bring this up, usually with nothing new to bring to the table.  If there is anything new in these discussions it gets trampled by the same old stuff.  I don't even feel compelled to read threads dealing with complaints about magickers anymore. 

I believe it's also worth reading this by Dakurus, referenced above.

Quote from: Dakurus on July 15, 2008, 01:06:52 PM
The actual number of magickers in the "who" list, or online at any moment is far from directly proportional to the perception of how many magickers are about in the game. It might be 10% or 40%, but it's more about their playtime, where they visit, and what they do. It doesn't take but one or two going to a particular oasis who play most nights to make a significant impression. The same could be said for one or two going to a particular bar. But then there's that one or two that sit in a cave or apartment or temple, which is very low impact with regards to perception. The impact is also proportional to the area in which players limit themselves. One or two magickers playing regularly in the rinth, would dramaticly affect perception for rinthis, while one or two who wandered far and wide in the waste might have less of an impression. Some magickers can travel rapidly from place to place but it's not unlikely that they'll visit similar places to mundanes, be it for water, food, goods, interaction, or otherwise. There are bound to be interactions on the few roads, few bars, few wateringholes, few resource gathering spots, and so on. The interaction between two magickers meeting at these spots, two mundanes, or a mix, is very different in every case, and even made more different based on culture. The frequency, material covered, and resolution of these occurances (sometimes decided by one player, sometimes both) also has a heavy affect on perception.


That said, it is the responsibility of players to adhere to the documentation.
It is not the responsibility of players to deal with complaints about players if someone is not adhering to the documentation.
If you notice someone not adhering to the documentation and it cannot be dealt with in-character, then:
Player request > player complaint > I think this guy/gal is not following the documentation and here's why (add logs/evidence/opinions) > submit