I'd like to start a discussion on what might make the city-elf race more appealing to the playerbase. For as long as I've played here, this race has been lacking in all aspects of the game, and it's hardly any surprise that they're largely unplayed. I believe the main thee reasons are these:
> C-elf stats suck. They're not good for anything except pickpockets and perhaps magickers. They would also make good merchants in terms of the code, but noone in their right mind would attempt this. I wouldn't even make a c-elf burglar because their abysmal strength makes it hard to carry much without suffering coded penalties. Pickpocket is perhaps the least played guild short of sorcerer and psionicist (not even sure about that), so this isn't much of a saving grace. For anything related to combat, c-elf stats are prohibitively low, most importantly the strength which leaves them far, far behind other races. Ever since the "defense fix" which drastically reduced the effectiveness of agility as a defensive boost, c-elf warriors and assassins have been all but unplayable for anyone marginally concerned with their character's coded prowess. I believe this to be the biggest cause for the lack of c-elf PCs.
Possible solutions:
- Strength really, really needs to be balanced out for the non-mul/giant races. There's a staggering disparity between the upper and lower range of strength, to the point where such a difference will put two characters apart in terms of fighting prowess in ways that skill can never make up for. Most importantly, low strength needs to be less of a disadvantage in armed combat. Consistently doing no more than nicks and grazes with an obsidian sword just because your strength is below average is not only unrealistic but also a huge playability issue.
- Agility's contribution to defense should be increased. This is not only to make up for the offensive disadvantage of having low strength, but so that high strength doesn't indirectly give a bigger defensive boost than agility due to one's ability to wear proper armor. A c-elf generally can't wear any armor, or nothing heavier than light leathers, so when their superhuman agility does very little to help them defend themselves, it's a balance issue that affects the game negatively. Agility's current effects on defensive skills is nothing that just a day or two of moderate sparring won't even out, and the difference between light leather and heavy chitin armor is infinitely greater than the difference between good and exceptional agility.
> C-elves don't ride, but unlike their desert cousins, they lack the ability that makes up for this. This makes no sense, I don't see any reason why a race would limit themselves so much out of pride in an ability that they don't have, and it's a significant problem. Being a c-elf means you pretty much can't leave the gates of whatever settlement you're bound to, and this alone deters a lot of players. It also makes c-elf characters even less useful to the select few organizations that might consider hiring one.
Possible solutions:
- Rather than seeing c-elves suddenly riding around, I would prefer them to have some ability to travel the desert without a mount. Give them stamina losses that closely resemble the desert-elf race and leave their stamina pool as it is. This would let them get from Allanak to Red Storm or maybe Luir's without great difficulty, but not allow them to run to Tuluk and back on a whim.
- Simply let c-elves ride. I'm not too fond of this one, but it's borderline retarded that they refuse to ride out of pride in an ability that they don't have.
> There's no c-elf culture to speak of. Short of the rinth's east-side section, which has never been active enough to suffice, there's just no place in the world where a c-elves won't be among people who hate them. Surely such a numerous race would have carved out a niche for themselves in each larger center of population? There's a couple of coded tribes in one area of the game, but they're not readily accessible and they're strictly non-lawful in nature.
Possible solutions:
- Make smaller elven sectors in each city-state. Tuluk has a shred of this, but obviously not enough to build any kind of playerbase around.
- Make coded, not-necessarily-criminal c-elf clans where they can have some purpose and recognition.
- Flesh out the rinth more so that there isn't so little to do without direct player interaction which has always been sporadic at best.
Discuss.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 11:12:27 AM
There's no c-elf culture to speak of. Short of the rinth's east-side section, which has never been active enough to suffice
Having played a successful c-elf assassin in a large clan of east side elves I can tell you that this statement is flat out wrong.
Quote from: Ender on January 27, 2009, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 11:12:27 AM
There's no c-elf culture to speak of. Short of the rinth's east-side section, which has never been active enough to suffice
Having played a successful c-elf assassin in a large clan of east side elves I can tell you that this statement is flat out wrong.
I'm sorry, B-Ender, but that's the only statement that Good Gortok said that I think is correct.
Quote
> There's no c-elf culture to speak of. Short of the rinth's east-side section, which has never been active enough to suffice, there's just no place in the world where a c-elves won't be among people who hate them. Surely such a numerous race would have carved out a niche for themselves in each larger center of population? There's a couple of coded tribes in one area of the game, but they're not readily accessible and they're strictly non-lawful in nature.
Possible solutions:
- Make smaller elven sectors in each city-state. Tuluk has a shred of this, but obviously not enough to build any kind of playerbase around.
- Make coded, not-necessarily-criminal c-elf clans where they can have some purpose and recognition.
- Flesh out the rinth more so that there isn't so little to do without direct player interaction which has always been sporadic at best.
These are awesome ideas.
Quote from: Ender on January 27, 2009, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 11:12:27 AM
There's no c-elf culture to speak of. Short of the rinth's east-side section, which has never been active enough to suffice
Having played a successful c-elf assassin in a large clan of east side elves I can tell you that this statement is flat out wrong.
::)
Posting my thoughts.
QuoteC-elf stats suck
I don't think this is an issue. I've seen a few badass assassins and maybe even a warrior trolling around the 'rinth. I think there are problems with the stat system such as rewarding strength too much in combat. But my guess is that a desert-elf fairs about the same when it comes to combat. Look around and you'll see plenty of desert elves that can tear you apart as well.
In my opinion there are three problems with city elves.
Riding/RunningThis is the big killer, I think. And also why you don't see elves in the byn. The Byn usually leaves the city for missions but elves arn't allowed to tag along because they'll be a burden. If they do, the sarge is going to have to pull out a tent every five minutes if they want to go off the road. One of my first characters was a city elf that played in the days shortly after Akasha (I don't remember when it was). The sarge of the time, sent me back to the city the each time after I got too tired to continue. I had a lot of fun in the byn with this character but being unable to go on missions was really fucking ridiculous.
QuotePossible solutions:
- Rather than seeing c-elves suddenly riding around, I would prefer them to have some ability to travel the desert without a mount. Give them stamina losses that closely resemble the desert-elf race and leave their stamina pool as it is. This would let them get from Allanak to Red Storm or maybe Luir's without great difficulty, but not allow them to run to Tuluk and back on a whim.
- Simply let c-elves ride. I'm not too fond of this one, but it's borderline retarded that they refuse to ride out of pride in an ability that they don't have.
I'm in favor of either of these options.
A third possible option is that a elf, born and raised in the city might be able to train himself to run properly in the desert. I.E. make a few logs about jogging around the city submit it and in the time of a game-year submit a request to have desert-running ability (though maybe never as good as real d-elves). I don't see any reason why this couldn't be possible currently, beyond preventive staff policy that I suspect may be in place. I havn't tried it, so I don't know.
Lack of clanning.The next problem is lack of clanned opportunity. In the south, if I want to stay out of the 'rinth; what are my options if I want to join one of the game's staff supported clans? One merchant house and thats it. My guess it that in the south (in the north things are a bit different), clans make up three-fourths of PC interactions on Zalanthas. Almost all the long-lived characters and therefore most of the neato plots belong to clans. And city-elves are shunned from all but one of them.
It does make IC sense that clans might shun a race that is notorious for thieving but I think this can be worked around. Merchant clans, interested in a profit I think would recognize city-elves for skill at merchanting and innovation. And anyone who has worked with elves long-termed might know that elves will become extremely loyal if given enough time. And for anyone suggesting that elves are overall unemployabe, I would like to point out npc evidence proves otherwise.
So instead of an "open doors" policy to elven recruits; what I propose is that merchant houses might consider bringing in elves with demonstrated talent and loyalty. Perhaps an elven artisan which has proven the quality of their craftmanship might be invited into the house by a sponsor. Or an elven mercenary who has faught along side and even saved the life of a few hunters might be considered to be brought into the house.
So basically, I'm proposing a sponsorship system for the merchant houses that might allow a pc elf or two into the clans. If the elf turns out to be a bad apple, the sponsor will get in shit for it. I think there is plenty of opportunity for roleplay in this situation, especially if the elf planned it all along.
I have to get to class, so I'll talk about
culture and social position in another post.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 11:12:27 AM
There's no c-elf culture to speak of. Short of the rinth's east-side section, which has never been active enough to suffice
I just want to say that I'm in agreement with GG, here. Minus 'rinth elves (active or not), city elves have really no discernable culture, that I can see as a player.
QuoteBut my guess is that a desert-elf fairs about the same when it comes to combat.
Actually, this is a common misconception. Desert-elves are significantly stronger and tougher than city-elves - quite close to humans, I'd say.
I'll say this once.
Agility > Strength when it comes to combat. Agility more than makes up any disadvantages of low strength.
--
As far as elves riding, I don't see why they just don't say, "Fuck it, we've been in the city too long, we can't run that damn far, gimme a kank."
I know if I played a c-elf, he'd be riding.
"But Qzzrbl, the docs says that's a shameful thing for an elf to do!"
Shameful to who? Other tribes? Piss on them. My c-elf doesn't have a tribe.
But then again, I guess that's why I've never rolled up a c-elf.
Don't want any bad account notes, y'know?
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 27, 2009, 06:29:59 PM
I'll say this once.
Agility > Strength when it comes to combat. Agility more than makes up any disadvantages of low strength.
--
As far as elves riding, I don't see why they just don't say, "Fuck it, we've been in the city too long, we can't run that damn far, gimme a kank."
I know if I played a c-elf, he'd be riding.
"But Qzzrbl, the docs says that's a shameful thing for an elf to do!"
Shameful to who? Other tribes? Piss on them. My c-elf doesn't have a tribe.
But then again, I guess that's why I've never rolled up a c-elf.
Don't want any bad account notes, y'know?
I don't think that advising people to break the docs or admitting a desire to do so is particularly clever.
It isn't just about shame, it's culturally ingrained that it isn't even an option. Likely as not an elf wouldn't be weighing this rationally, that'd be like rationally weighing the value of your pet as meat. Sure, maybe in a moment of total desperation you'd consider it, but maybe not, and even then only with huge reservations.
I'd argue that city elves might have even stronger taboos that desert elves. Sort of the same way French Canadians are often more staunchly "French" than natives of France. When surrounded by another culture, you have something to prove, and you hang onto your traditions and values all the more rigidly.
If city elves started joining the militia and patrolling nak on beetles, someone might point out that they'd been living with humans so long they'd
become humans. No elf wants to hear that.
Edit: Uh. Sorry for mixing metaphors so tragically.
Quote from: staggerlee on January 27, 2009, 06:47:52 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 27, 2009, 06:29:59 PM
I'll say this once.
Agility > Strength when it comes to combat. Agility more than makes up any disadvantages of low strength.
--
As far as elves riding, I don't see why they just don't say, "Fuck it, we've been in the city too long, we can't run that damn far, gimme a kank."
I know if I played a c-elf, he'd be riding.
"But Qzzrbl, the docs says that's a shameful thing for an elf to do!"
Shameful to who? Other tribes? Piss on them. My c-elf doesn't have a tribe.
But then again, I guess that's why I've never rolled up a c-elf.
Don't want any bad account notes, y'know?
I don't think that advising people to break the docs or admitting a desire to do so is particularly clever.
It isn't just about shame, it's culturally ingrained that it isn't even an option. Likely as not an elf wouldn't be weighing this rationally, that'd be like rationally weighing the value of your pet as meat. Sure, maybe in a moment of total desperation you'd consider it, but maybe not, and even then only with huge reservations.
I'd argue that city elves might have even stronger taboos that desert elves. Sort of the same way French Canadians are often more staunchly "French" than natives of France. When surrounded by another culture, you have something to prove, and you hang onto your traditions and values all the more rigidly.
If city elves started joining the militia and patrolling nak on beetles, someone might point out that they'd been living with humans so long they'd become humans. No elf wants to hear that.
Edit: Uh. Sorry for mixing metaphors so tragically.
Mm.... You've got alot of good points there.
None of which I even come close to knowing enough about elven culture to even try to argue against.
:P
-- Some of the baddest warriors ever are city elves. I should know, since I played one.
-- Elves lack strength, but their exceptional agility more than makes up for this.
-- Elves do lack coded tribes. There are three off the top of my head, but one is probably not allowed at this point, and the other two are inactive. That being said, make your own virtual tribe. I've done it before, and created extensive documentation to flesh out my character's actions.
-- If you ride an animal as a city elf, you are not only a tard, you deserve all your karma to be flushed down the toilet. I once received a warning on my account for being forced against my will to ride in a wagon. Don't test staff on this.
-- Overall, c.elf stats do not suck. Either that, or I'm lucky at rolling good stats.
-- You're right about the culture. That being said, see above. Create your own tribe. Flesh out an existing one.
The most badass assassin I've encountered in game was a c-elf. I don't think their stats suck so much, though it's race I've played maybe once. The lack of available cultural docs/common tribes are a real problem.
There should be some kind mundane method for c-elves to develop an ability to cross distances. Train up running, lose the pride and mount the kank. Something. One could prioritize endurance and choose the ranger class for c-elves that only need to run medium distances outdoors, but that still excludes them from the Byn.
I see plenty of opportunities for a c-elf in the northlands. Plenty in the Rinth. Not so much in Allanak proper.
I said stay tuned!!!! lol....I'm working on it! ;D
The real problem is lack of coded city-elven tribes. There should be at least one.
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 27, 2009, 11:17:33 PM
The real problem is lack of coded city-elven tribes. There should be at least one that doesn't immediately incur the wrath of everyone around them for being blatant (and often poor) thieves and assassins and promptly being caught at it rather than at least pretending to maintain a semi-respectable business, and/or otherwise acts intelligent and as if they have a will to live.
ftfy
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 27, 2009, 11:17:33 PM
The real problem is lack of coded city-elven tribes. There should be at least one.
It would go a long way, but I think city-elves would still be limited in potential roles.
I'll say it one last time. The problem with city elves is that
they are limited in roles because of a number of issues.
Where are my spice-hunters?
Mercenaries?
Unscrupulous merchants?
Why the hell is being a city elf outside the labyrinth an iso role?
Why are elves usually treated worse than half-elves, scum of the earth!?
Hell, why are city-elves, (citizens of His glorious city) treated worse than desert elves?
Why is every goddamn elf I meet in the south a lawless sneak? (I've noticed at least one exception lately, kudos to you!)
To summarize my solutions....
1. Give elven tribes with a visable position in the city states. So we actually know where elves stand in the social heirarchy. I'm not looking for anything more than a few docs and an elven friendly part of town.
2. Give elves access to more clans. I think the merchant houses would be most appropriate.
3. Give elves a way to get around. Make them run worth a damn! (again, doesn't have to be as far, or as fast as d-elves)
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 06:25:04 PM
QuoteBut my guess is that a desert-elf fairs about the same when it comes to combat.
Actually, this is a common misconception. Desert-elves are significantly stronger and tougher than city-elves - quite close to humans, I'd say.
This is 100% incorrect.
Desert Elves and City Elves have the same strength / agility.
One of the problems with playing in a city-elf tribe in the 'rinth is that everyone immediately targets you like you're the fucking Ebola virus: can't let you survive, or you'll start recruiting more clannies, which obviously will lead to some zombie apocalypse. It's pretty sad when Templars from Tuluk know more about your tribemates than even you do. ::)
Quote from: mansa on January 28, 2009, 01:52:21 AM
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 06:25:04 PM
QuoteBut my guess is that a desert-elf fairs about the same when it comes to combat.
Actually, this is a common misconception. Desert-elves are significantly stronger and tougher than city-elves - quite close to humans, I'd say.
This is 100% incorrect.
Desert Elves and City Elves have the same strength / agility.
The help file does say that desert elves tend to be more muscular and leaner than city elves ... dunno how heavily that carries over into the code.
Quote from: musashi on January 28, 2009, 02:27:59 AM
Quote from: mansa on January 28, 2009, 01:52:21 AM
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 06:25:04 PM
QuoteBut my guess is that a desert-elf fairs about the same when it comes to combat.
Actually, this is a common misconception. Desert-elves are significantly stronger and tougher than city-elves - quite close to humans, I'd say.
This is 100% incorrect.
Desert Elves and City Elves have the same strength / agility.
The help file does say that desert elves tend to be more muscular and leaner than city elves ... dunno how heavily that carries over into the code.
I'm 99% certain it's just an endurance boost.
This matters so godawful incredibly much, why?
Can't say I've ever met an elven character and thought to myself "gosh, I wonder how much stamina he's got."
"Oh, he's a badass roleplayer, but his strength obviously sucks. NEXT!"
::)
Quote from: a strange shadow on January 28, 2009, 03:41:04 AM
This matters so godawful incredibly much, why?
Can't say I've ever met an elven character and thought to myself "gosh, I wonder how much stamina he's got."
You've obviously never mudsexxed a desert elf.
That double entendre was quite possibly intended...... and still stands.
:P
Quote from: musashi on January 28, 2009, 02:27:59 AM
Quote from: mansa on January 28, 2009, 01:52:21 AM
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 06:25:04 PM
QuoteBut my guess is that a desert-elf fairs about the same when it comes to combat.
Actually, this is a common misconception. Desert-elves are significantly stronger and tougher than city-elves - quite close to humans, I'd say.
This is 100% incorrect.
Desert Elves and City Elves have the same strength / agility.
The help file does say that desert elves tend to be more muscular and leaner than city elves ... dunno how heavily that carries over into the code.
There's a particular bow that requires above average human strength, good desert-elf strength, and extremely good or exceptional city-elf strength. I've also noticed a significant difference in combat damage and carrying capacity. Are you talking out of experience/knowledge or just assumption?
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 28, 2009, 05:39:32 AM
Quote from: musashi on January 28, 2009, 02:27:59 AM
Quote from: mansa on January 28, 2009, 01:52:21 AM
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 06:25:04 PM
QuoteBut my guess is that a desert-elf fairs about the same when it comes to combat.
Actually, this is a common misconception. Desert-elves are significantly stronger and tougher than city-elves - quite close to humans, I'd say.
This is 100% incorrect.
Desert Elves and City Elves have the same strength / agility.
The help file does say that desert elves tend to be more muscular and leaner than city elves ... dunno how heavily that carries over into the code.
There's a particular bow that requires above average human strength, good desert-elf strength, and extremely good or exceptional city-elf strength. I've also noticed a significant difference in combat damage and carrying capacity. Are you talking out of experience/knowledge or just assumption?
I can't find a help file or web page doc that describes desert elves to be more muscular or leaner than city elves. Please post the specific quote you are talking about so that it can be fixed. Per the documents, elf and desert elves have the same range of strength.
Quote from: Races doc on website... As compared to humans, elves have a higher agility (on average), and a somewhat higher wisdom. Due to their light build, though, they are generally less strong and sturdy than humans.
I will also point out this note in the help docs:
Quote from: help elfNotes:
Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
Elves are fine, and the only thing I'd think of giving city elves is a bit of urban hide/sneak as a racial skill.
I agree with Jstorrie, I personally love playing c-elves and d-elves. And I have never had a problem either way. So what if I can't wear massive Mek armor of godly-ness...or carry three tuns of water (okay I'm exaggerating) but the point is still there....elves are fast and remarkably so...and the high agility has always made up for the lack of strength for me...and I'm one who likes big a strong characters, but yet I still find elves appealing.
What Jingo said.
Quote from: Jingo on January 28, 2009, 01:06:32 AM
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 27, 2009, 11:17:33 PM
The real problem is lack of coded city-elven tribes. There should be at least one.
It would go a long way, but I think city-elves would still be limited in potential roles.
I'll say it one last time. The problem with city elves is that they are limited in roles because of a number of issues.
Where are my spice-hunters?
Mercenaries?
Unscrupulous merchants?
Why the hell is being a city elf outside the labyrinth an iso role?
Why are elves usually treated worse than half-elves, scum of the earth!?
Hell, why are city-elves, (citizens of His glorious city) treated worse than desert elves?
Why is every goddamn elf I meet in the south a lawless sneak? (I've noticed at least one exception lately, kudos to you!)
To summarize my solutions....
1. Give elven tribes with a visable position in the city states. So we actually know where elves stand in the social heirarchy. I'm not looking for anything more than a few docs and an elven friendly part of town.
2. Give elves access to more clans. I think the merchant houses would be most appropriate.
3. Give elves a way to get around. Make them run worth a damn! (again, doesn't have to be as far, or as fast as d-elves)
Quote from: Morgenes on January 28, 2009, 09:43:13 AM
I can't find a help file or web page doc that describes desert elves to be more muscular or leaner than city elves. Please post the specific quote you are talking about so that it can be fixed. Per the documents, elf and desert elves have the same range of strength.
I will also point out this note in the help docs:
Quote from: help elfNotes:
Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
It's um ... in the same help file you referenced.
Quote from: The entire elf helpfileRace Elf (Character)
Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans. They are taller than humans--mostly standing between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light frames. Skin colour ranges from nearly black to pale cream colours; hair is typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye colour among elves is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and their eyes always almond-shaped. There are two varieties of elves: city elves and desert elves.
City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.
Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin colour than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.
The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.
Roleplaying:
Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert
tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime,
per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons
outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to
test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as
runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the
riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.
Notes:
Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
Desert elves are not readily available to new players, but city elves
are.
Quote from: musashi on January 28, 2009, 08:13:54 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on January 28, 2009, 09:43:13 AM
I can't find a help file or web page doc that describes desert elves to be more muscular or leaner than city elves. Please post the specific quote you are talking about so that it can be fixed. Per the documents, elf and desert elves have the same range of strength.
I will also point out this note in the help docs:
Quote from: help elfNotes:
Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
It's um ... in the same help file you referenced.
Quote from: The entire elf helpfileRace Elf (Character)
Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans. They are taller than humans--mostly standing between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light frames. Skin colour ranges from nearly black to pale cream colours; hair is typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye colour among elves is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and their eyes always almond-shaped. There are two varieties of elves: city elves and desert elves.
City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.
Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin colour than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.
The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.
Roleplaying:
Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert
tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime,
per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons
outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to
test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as
runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the
riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.
Notes:
Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
Desert elves are not readily available to new players, but city elves
are.
Fixed, it now reads:
Quote from: help elfThey tend to be darker
in skin color than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular, but
not necessarily stronger.
> emo bows down in praise before ~morgenes.
The skinny guy with short-cut blond hair bows down in praise before the bearded coder with the black, skull t-shirt.
Are city elves even supposed to leave their city? Or is it looked down upon? I always venture away from the role because I've been under the impression that you choose a city, and stay there. And that just sounds horribly boring to me.
In defense of the general sentiment, my first truely "one city based won't travel" PC I made was perhaps my most enjoyable, so staying in one city (at least until IG events dictate otherwise) doesn't have to be horribly boring ...
But as for whether or not a city elf would travel ... no idea.
I figure not, unless its for trade, because most nothern folks hate southern folks and vice versa.
Actually that makes me wonder ... do southern elves share the same ill taste for northern people as southern humans do, and vice versa?
It's mostly for playability reasons.
If I start an elf in redstorm with the intent of gathering spice, I will be severely disabled in my ability to do it. Or if I join the byn, I won't be able to go along with missions. Or if someone asks my badass warrior city elf to join them on a scouting trip, I can't.
Playability really always trumps these kind of IC concerns.
I think city elves should be able to run better than humans, for what it's worth. Something like ... desert elves run the fastest, followed by city elves, followed by half-elves, followed by half-giants, humans, halflings, dwarves.
Though where Mantis would fit into that I have no idea ... scary bugs!
Quote from: musashi on January 29, 2009, 02:30:29 AM
I think city elves should be able to run better than humans, for what it's worth. Something like ... desert elves run the fastest, followed by city elves, followed by half-elves, followed by half-giants, humans, halflings, dwarves.
Though where Mantis would fit into that I have no idea ... scary bugs!
City elves can run faster, and they run MUCH better in certain places. Of course, not in any of the places that would really make them worth the bother to play, especially since other readily available skills are infinitely more useful in those places.
Or just let city-elves retain some of their long-lost runner's build by letting them "hike" more easily through wilderness. Reduced stamina drain, slightly increased walking speed, that sort of thing. It'd be slow, but less ridiculous to try and travel more than two rooms beyond the city gates for whatever reason.
That said, I think that if city-elves had a better-defined role within a city, it would be the exception to the rule that one would ever want to leave the city, because their niche would be there. Sadly, that's not the case. They can be difficult to play in the city, because they're shunned like lepers (thieves) and they're nigh impossible to play outside of the city, because while they're huffing to catch their breath, something's going to eat them. To be fair, if you're more intent on playing a mercenary or scout than you are a weird exception to a racial norm, then city elves aren't for you.
Quote from: Ashes on January 29, 2009, 02:37:34 AM
To be fair, if you're more intent on playing a mercenary or scout than you are a weird exception to a racial norm, then city elves aren't for you.
Take a look around the T'zai Byn compounds and redstorm. I think there are plenty of examples for these roles.
Quote from: Jingo on January 29, 2009, 03:06:40 AM
Quote from: Ashes on January 29, 2009, 02:37:34 AM
To be fair, if you're more intent on playing a mercenary or scout than you are a weird exception to a racial norm, then city elves aren't for you.
Take a look around the T'zai Byn compounds and redstorm. I think there are plenty of examples for these roles.
I think it was stated some time in the past that most of the T'zai Byn elf NPCs are in fact members of some now-defunct d-elf tribe.
I remember an Imm animating Lieutenant Astalon once to take us out for desert training, and he hid in the desert while we were all chilling in the tent, so when the Runners all came out, we were like WHERE'D THE SARGE GO OMG WE'RE GONNA DIE.
Quote from: Jingo on January 27, 2009, 05:20:26 PM
The next problem is lack of clanned opportunity. In the south, if I want to stay out of the 'rinth; what are my options if I want to join one of the game's staff supported clans? One merchant house and thats it. My guess it that in the south (in the north things are a bit different), clans make up three-fourths of PC interactions on Zalanthas. Almost all the long-lived characters and therefore most of the neato plots belong to clans. And city-elves are shunned from all but one of them.
The bold text appears to be true. I cant remember -ever- having a RPT with an elf, but I do remember a handful of well-played, long-lived city elves.
City elves are just fine.
They're one of my favorite builds to play, actually.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 29, 2009, 07:56:44 AM
City elves are just fine.
They're one of my favorite builds to play, actually.
What's the longest a city elf of yours has survived? :P
They still should get at least one coded tribe like everyone else gets.
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 29, 2009, 07:03:47 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on January 29, 2009, 07:56:44 AM
City elves are just fine.
They're one of my favorite builds to play, actually.
What's the longest a city elf of yours has survived? :P
Remember that 'rinth elves don't count.
City elves should be like 6 karma.
They have high restrictions on leaving a city. There is nearly no document of city elf tribes to set down some guidance. The entire playerbase will treat you like they are handling toilet paper (yes, you are only useful when they need to smear some shit or shit related products). There is no clan that will give you shelter. Worst of it all, in that city you live which you can not leave even if you want to, all the troubles other players get will be pinned on you.
Seriously, the only race that is slightly more restricted is mul (since being a slave and all), and they have some perks that make up for it.
My math says it is good for 6 karma.
I must admit ... it has seemed to me from the city elves I've seen in the past, that there function is let new players app them and try to play them like LoR elves ... while the rest of the playerbase jeers.
I'm sort of inclined to agree with Ghost that they should be a karma role.
Haha, I've experienced the "all the things other players do are pinned on you" and it works that way with every single long-lived c-elf I've had.
Quote from: Ghost on January 29, 2009, 07:21:58 PM
City elves should be like 6 karma.
They have high restrictions on leaving a city. There is nearly no document of city elf tribes to set down some guidance. The entire playerbase will treat you like they are handling toilet paper (yes, you are only useful when they need to smear some shit or shit related products). There is no clan that will give you shelter. Worst of it all, in that city you live which you can not leave even if you want to, all the troubles other players get will be pinned on you.
Seriously, the only race that is slightly more restricted is mul (since being a slave and all), and they have some perks that make up for it.
My math says it is good for 6 karma.
It should be at least 1 karma. It's the worst race for a newbie to choose.
I was thinking about the city elves and mount thing this week and think that it could be considered a result of the races inborn psychological make up rather than a simple matter or pride, upbringing and choice.
You could go with they are born with a psychological need to not rely on anyone or anything else. It would explain their instinct towards deception, becuase they are born knowing that to rely on someone else is wrong and weak. When an elf tricks someone else they deserve it becuase the only way someone would be in that situation would be to rely on the elf to sacrifice their own self interest for that person. Maybe they are lazy or stupid but they trying to make you weak too, how dare they.
In regards to mounts there would be the instinctive mistrust of putting yourself at the relative mercy of that beast. Sure eventually they can be trained, and are very useful, but what about if that beast is killed? If you have come to rely on that beast to do what you need to do... well for an elf it just wouldn't bear thinking about. Literally, becuase their brains just don't work that way.
Familial instincts would override this somewhat allowing the concept of self to expand to encompass immediate family and to an extent the tribe. Its ok to help and rely on them a little... they are family.
Anyone, just pointing out that the whole riding thing need not be reduced to stupidity on the part of elves.
Edit for typoes. Some of them anyway.
I would support city elves being a karma race of the same level as a desert elf. It seems logical, but then again some of the funnest times I've ever had as a newbie were playing c-elf pickpockets.
I was chatting with another player the other day, and I agree completely with Ghost. They are nearly as hard to play, as muls (properly). If you take a look a current elves, they don't appear to follow help filed profile (PERSONAL, I COULD BE WRONG).
Thats all. Karma the C-elves.
(this has been yet another episode of Moof writes more drunk than ever!)
Maybe move everything else up a notch (2 karma=d-elves, 3 karma=viv/ruk, etc).
Give C-elves the 1 karma spot.
D-elf karma would take the same "trust level" as it does now making C-elf karma very easy to get.
Quote from: Fool on January 30, 2009, 01:43:35 AM
I was thinking about the city elves and mount thing this week and think that it could be considered a result of the races inborn psychological make up rather than a simple matter or pride, upbringing and choice.
You could go with they are born with a psychological need to not rely on anyone or anything else. It would explain their instinct towards deception, becuase they are born knowing that to rely on someone else is wrong and weak. When an elf tricks someone else they deserve it becuase the only way someone would be in that situation would be to rely on the elf to sacrifice their own self interest for that person. Maybe they are lazy or stupid but they trying to make you weak too, how dare they.
In regards to mounts there would be the instinctive mistrust of putting yourself at the relative mercy of that beast. Sure eventually they can be trained, and are very useful, but what about if that beast is killed? If you have come to rely on that beast to do what you need to do... well for an elf it just wouldn't bear thinking about. Literally, becuase their brains just don't work that way.
Familial instincts would override this somewhat allowing the concept of self to expand to encompass immediate family and to an extent the tribe. Its ok to help and rely on them a little... they are family.
Anyone, just pointing out that the whole riding thing need not be reduced to stupidity on the part of elves.
Edit for typoes. Some of them anyway.
Your conception of elves is ass-backwards, man.
Elves value their family and tribe above ALL else, even to the point of death. Elves bask in the glory of their tribe...they aren't ashamed to rely on each other, because their strength lies in that familial bond: the knowledge that, no matter HOW thick shit gets, your homies will ALWAYS have your back, NO MATTER WHAT. And you, as your PC, would NEVER violate that trust, because being outcast would be a fate worse than death. This is why elves are prideful: you'd feel pretty fucking pumped too, if you knew you had an entire crew of hardened individuals ready to go out and avenge any slights tossed out by some punk motherfucker with a big mouth. It's also why they should be cautious and discreet: because any mistake you make reflects poorly on or directly damages the group of individuals who are almost your entire identity.
Save the self-reliance kankshit for the emo half-breeds.
On topic: what the FUCK would be the point of putting a karma restriction on a race that almost nobody except newbs wants to play? I can't count the number of "more city elves plz" threads I've seen, and now people are calling for something that essentially would make them even more scarce.
The only reason d-elves, half-giants, muls, etc. have karma restrictions on them is because they have racial advantages that could possibly ruin the game if they got into severely (like noob H&S-style) abusive hands. It's not because they're "hard" to roleplay...otherwise half-elves would be like karma 5 and dwarves would probably be karma 8. It's hard to really go berserk on the game with the level 1 karma races/classes.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 30, 2009, 02:20:54 AM
Maybe move everything else up a notch (2 karma=d-elves, 3 karma=viv/ruk, etc).
Give C-elves the 1 karma spot.
D-elf karma would take the same "trust level" as it does now making C-elf karma very easy to get.
Knock Sorcerors and Psionicists off the chart into sponsored apps only, and that'd be perfect.
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 30, 2009, 05:16:20 AM
Knock Sorcerors and Psionicists off the chart into sponsored apps only, and that'd be perfect.
I'd fuck this, hard. But that's another thread.
But as far as making c-elves a karma race?
No.... This doesn't get my vote.
Writing up more documentation and throwing a coded c-elf tribe or two into the game so people won't have such a hard understanding of how to play c-elves?
^ This. This gets my vote.
I dont think I made it clear.
As of now, playing a city elf is harder than d-elf. As a d-elf you likely have a coded tribe and most likely coded tribemates. You have the perks to run to wherever you have to as well.
As a city elf, the only benefit you have is that are virtually protected from the "dangers of the desert", which might have been a benefit comparing to the times with wandering-gith-death-squads and what not, is no more a big deal at this point. Plus, the playerbase has evolved to the point they will give you a harder time than what your desert elf counterparts are experiencing out in the desert.
Seriously, I think c-elf is much harder to play than d-elf
Personally at this time in the game, I agree with the idea that c-elves are hard to play, but as a few others said I don't think they should be a karma race. Unless they got more boosts to like running or agility or something or got special skills, but otherwise i don't see many people wanting to waste their time on a karma 1-3 c-elf. I Like playing them as they are, and I take the challenge of that and run with it. It gives spark to my game play. But one thing I really think is needed is a coded tribe and like I have said many times: "I'm working on it so that in the future there will be one around."
--Titansfan
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 30, 2009, 08:24:15 AM
Writing up more documentation and throwing a coded c-elf tribe or two into the game so people won't have such a hard understanding of how to play c-elves?
^ This. This gets my vote.
I would also like to see this.
Karma? No.
I've been very highly considering a city elf for my next (several) pc's. It'll take more
than one because I don't remember Allanak.. at all and tend to get royally lost.
Quote from: Hot_Dancer on January 30, 2009, 02:39:17 PM
I've been very highly considering a city elf for my next (several) pc's. It'll take more
than one because I don't remember Allanak.. at all and tend to get royally lost.
Actually this thread is kind of making me want to try one too.
5 of you guys could store and start a tribe with the hopes of it becoming coded.
"Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas."
If you do it, don't do it in Allanak (or redstorm). Do it in the 'rinth or Tuluk.
Why not Allanak? It's been pretty quiet lately.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 30, 2009, 03:13:27 PM
Why not Allanak? It's been pretty quiet lately.
I should probably explain
Mostly because at least in Tuluk, you'll have a chance to advance socially. And in the 'rinth you'll have a chance to interact at an equal level.
In 'nak, nobody will talk to you unless they "want to smear shit", just like Ghost said. But anyways, if you play a sneaky elf in 'nak, you'll end up in the 'rinth in no time anyways.
The only place I would discourage is Red Storm because fuck-all happens there. Luir's, too, to some extent. Whether one should play in Nak or Tuluk depends entirely on what kind of roleplay they desire.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 30, 2009, 02:42:56 PM
5 of you guys could store and start a tribe with the hopes of it becoming coded.
"Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas."
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30912.0.html
NO NEW CLANS POLICY
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 30, 2009, 03:24:18 PM
The only place I would discourage is Red Storm because fuck-all happens there. Luir's, too, to some extent. Whether one should play in Nak or Tuluk depends entirely on what kind of roleplay they desire.
For human characters, sure. But playing a solo elf in 'storm is nigh impossible for coded reasons.
And in 'nak, expect to get your ass kicked on a regular basis by noble servants just for stepping into the Gaj.
Quote from: mansa on January 30, 2009, 03:31:29 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 30, 2009, 02:42:56 PM
5 of you guys could store and start a tribe with the hopes of it becoming coded.
"Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas."
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30912.0.html
NO NEW CLANS POLICY
When you're talking about establishing a major clan/organization in game, getting the documents added to the webpage, a forum and a staff are the least of your concerns.
Quote from: mansa on January 30, 2009, 03:31:29 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 30, 2009, 02:42:56 PM
5 of you guys could store and start a tribe with the hopes of it becoming coded.
"Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas."
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30912.0.html
NO NEW CLANS POLICY
The new game was also suppose to start somewhere around three years ago... things change.
Staff would most likely say no if you just went up and asked. A group of players spending a RL year working towards a plot end MIGHT sway them otherwise.
Instead of having your backgrounds from an existing virtual tribe, form a group of elves with a common purpose to join together and for a new IC tribe.
Write docs for your tribe, discuss ICly how members should handle things, relate to different outside groups, etc.
Send regular emails to the unclanned staff updating them as to your progress.
You never know until you try, and if you stay alive long enough and gather enough followers, you are a tribe regardless of rather or not it is coded.
Even though it isn't coded they might be willing to give you a discussion board group to communicate and post docs as they are made.
i believe in the "'Tis easier to ask for forgivness than permission" argument:
Do the work THEN ask for assistance, not the other way around.
Elf love is coming, from what I understand.
Yes. That's what she said.
Sweet. I'll take this opportunity to stop bitching then. ;D
Staff love is coming(in the form of kudos) if so.
One of my favorite pcs was a c-elf burglar/con-artist. He was a very successful crook and never did really work as a "burglar". I do agree that c-elves need more documented tribes that one can be a part of.
I was trying, but after what people have said to me....I don't know if it's worth it. Even though some people have shown their gratification. I don't....just don't have the heart or motivation to anymore.
... Because some people didn't like how you went about offering roles? Or for some other reason?
The way people on the GDB ridiculed me for it yes...and assumed the worst of me right off the get-go.
Ridiculed is a strong word. Honestly if you're losing heart because some people made a couple assumptions about your intentions, then maybe you didn't have all that much heart in it in the first place?
Besides, it's a forum. Fuck what other people think.
Again, the folks I have been working side-by-side with on this, know how much time/work I've been putting in on all of it. I just don't think the negative comments were needed. Especially since I'm trying to put together something that the boards have been asking for, over and over.
Quote from: titansfan on January 30, 2009, 11:26:07 PM
Again, the folks I have been working side-by-side with on this, know how much time/work I've been putting in on all of it. I just don't think the negative comments were needed. Especially since I'm trying to put together something that the boards have been asking for, over and over.
You're trying to improve the game and that's all that counts.
1 karma for all elves.
Sharak 'nough said.
Quote from: titansfan on January 30, 2009, 11:26:07 PM
Again, the folks I have been working side-by-side with on this, know how much time/work I've been putting in on all of it. I just don't think the negative comments were needed. Especially since I'm trying to put together something that the boards have been asking for, over and over.
People acted on what little info they had, don't take it personal. I wonder, when you set up a mini tribe, is it a requirement to send the docs for staff review and approval?
Free city-running doesn't seem to be coded anywhere but Allanak (and even there some places have been neglected). I think all city streets should offer running without stamina loss for city-elves, especially in Tuluk with its retardedly long roads and thrown-apart sectors. Anywhere that walking doesn't cost stamina, running shouldn't either for a c-elf. Also, if city-elf is turned into a 1 karma race, it should be given city hide and sneak similarly to the desert-elves' wilderness hide and sneak. Maybe they should have this even if they stay 0 karma.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 31, 2009, 12:55:51 PM
Free city-running doesn't seem to be coded anywhere but Allanak (and even there some places have been neglected). I think all city streets should offer running without stamina loss for city-elves, especially in Tuluk with its retardedly long roads and thrown-apart sectors. Anywhere that walking doesn't cost stamina, running shouldn't either for a c-elf. Also, if city-elf is turned into a 1 karma race, it should be given city hide and sneak similarly to the desert-elves' wilderness hide and sneak. Maybe they should have this even if they stay 0 karma.
I'd be cool with all of this, though if they got city hide and sneak like a d-elf's wilderness hide and sneak, I'd think they should be equal on the karma scale.
I could see that. I think it'd make sense to give similar abilities to city elves and bump them to 1 karma also.
Agreed.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on January 31, 2009, 01:32:39 PM
I'd be cool with all of this, though if they got city hide and sneak like a d-elf's wilderness hide and sneak, I'd think they should be equal on the karma scale.
Ditto.
I'm completely against C-elves being lifted to 1 karma. If they were, what could you play with no karma? Humans, Dwarves, Half elves. YAH! No. You can play a half elf, but you can't play an elf? I think that is very newbie unfriendly.
You're right, half-elves are harder to play than elves.
Elves and half-elves to 1 karma!
I don't think those are very good solutions to the "problem."
I think the solution is a city-elf tribe in both major population hubs ('rinth not included). Specifically, I think there should be a tribe, a mostly secure location, and a focus on allowing room for non-sneaky classes and tribal rules and hierarchy.
If a character wants to play an unclanned elf, they could start in Red Storm, Luir's Outpost, or the Labyrinth.
Morrolan
Quote from: Delstro on January 31, 2009, 08:42:43 PM
I'm completely against C-elves being lifted to 1 karma. If they were, what could you play with no karma? Humans, Dwarves, Half elves. YAH! No. You can play a half elf, but you can't play an elf? I think that is very newbie unfriendly.
It's unfortunate, but karma restrictions are there to ensure that newbies don't detract from our suspension of disbelief. At least 50% of the celves I've encountered have had racial identity disorder, and bumping it to a karma restricted class is an easy fix.
Quote from: Moofassa on January 31, 2009, 09:07:38 PM
You're right, half-elves are harder to play than elves.
I disagree with this general assumption.
I guess I should have said: I find that I have a harder time playing out the mindset of half-elves better than a full elf.
Quote from: Moofassa on February 01, 2009, 12:37:45 AM
I guess I should have said: I find that I have a harder time playing out the mindset of half-elves better than a full elf.
I have a hard time with sneakies... a lowly no one who is out to please everyone no matter how bad they treat him... that I can do.
Quote from: Ampere on January 31, 2009, 11:58:14 PM
Quote from: Delstro on January 31, 2009, 08:42:43 PM
I'm completely against C-elves being lifted to 1 karma. If they were, what could you play with no karma? Humans, Dwarves, Half elves. YAH! No. You can play a half elf, but you can't play an elf? I think that is very newbie unfriendly.
It's unfortunate, but karma restrictions are there to ensure that newbies don't detract from our suspension of disbelief. At least 50% of the celves I've encountered have had racial identity disorder, and bumping it to a karma restricted class is an easy fix.
*nods* And though some might argue that there are new players who come to Armageddon just to play an elf ... I think those new players usually have a very different idea of what an elf should act like than the dark sun-ish mentality we have here and thus, I would be a-ok with having them play a human first to see what the game looks like and poke around a bit before getting their first karma button and playing the elf that they always wanted to play.
I think we already do this with mages anyway.
Quote from: musashi on February 01, 2009, 01:44:08 AM
Quote from: Ampere on January 31, 2009, 11:58:14 PM
Quote from: Delstro on January 31, 2009, 08:42:43 PM
I'm completely against C-elves being lifted to 1 karma. If they were, what could you play with no karma? Humans, Dwarves, Half elves. YAH! No. You can play a half elf, but you can't play an elf? I think that is very newbie unfriendly.
It's unfortunate, but karma restrictions are there to ensure that newbies don't detract from our suspension of disbelief. At least 50% of the celves I've encountered have had racial identity disorder, and bumping it to a karma restricted class is an easy fix.
*nods* And though some might argue that there are new players who come to Armageddon just to play an elf ... I think those new players usually have a very different idea of what an elf should act like than the dark sun-ish mentality we have here and thus, I would be a-ok with having them play a human first to see what the game looks like and poke around a bit before getting their first karma button and playing the elf that they always wanted to play.
I think we already do this with mages anyway.
Yes. My god, I came to the game and made a c-elf merchant in Tuluk once, four years ago, starved to death in the ruins and said 'never again'.
Also, I don't personally see half-elves as being nearly as hard to role-play as c-elves. This might change if there were mode places to codedly start as a c-elf. Otherwise, it's a lot to ask that people try and RP and entire tribe and culture of VNPCs with (possibly) their first character. Most have a hard enough time with syntax, I know I sure as hell did.
What's so difficult about half-elves? People might give you a bit of shit, but it's nothing compared to what elves and gemmers have to endure. You can join like half the clans in the game and are not restricted from any guilds nor significantly hindered by any coded shortcomings. The half-elf racial trait is about as easy to play off as it gets if you have the basic idea: do your best to be independent, or do you best to earn people's acceptance, either way is fine. Much more depth can be put into it, but it's not a requirment; most of the time, the common playstyles of the playerbase just happen to fall into one of those two moulds anyway. I think it's the least complicated racial trait in the game, you can do just about anything and call it a valid effort to fend for yourself or to fit in.
This is the last derailing post because of me please:
I suppose I try and roleplay my characters by taking an emotional standpoint first, and AGAIN FOR ME, I suppose the emotions that I associate with a half-elven mind are harder for me to play realistically. Sometimes I can role with a characters mind and feelings, which is where all of my characters start, and develop from, but every time i've run a half-elf I (me, myself I, and maybe mansa) can't seem to flow into their emotional thought patterns.
That is all.
I asked a similar question before but my question wasn't really answered...
Is it bad RP for city elves to travel to other cities? What about a c-elf who lost his tribe who grebs for salt or uses the desert in some way for his livelihood (no idea how to spell that haha)? Or would I have to do this in a way that allows him to think he is ripping someone off?
got me, Nile. I've never played one, but this thread has got me fired up about doing so. Just need someone to kill my current char.
and here's an old quote on elves:
Quote from: incognitoElves live by the ASS-code.
They're either
Laughin it off
Bustin it
Kickin it
Kissin it
Trying to get a piece of it
or
Being one
If you live by the "ass" code, you'll get the elven persona automatically :)
I'd support the 1-karma elf thing.. elves are extremely difficult to play (isn't that why d-elves are 1-karma?) Heck, I tried reading through the files and the elven mentality baffled me. It's impossible to play without breaking some rules - no mount riding, stealing at any chance (except with tribe members), and trusting nobody. Also there's the various little RP dilemmas. Is a clan a sort of tribe, or is it a bunch of gullible fools waiting to be tricked? Should a c-elf refuse to take orders to ride a mount, or would he just suck it up and do what the boss says with a lot of bruised pride?
Definitely a 1-karma thing. I could probably pull off a good c-elf if I wanted, but it's like 5th priority under all my other character ideas. They have one awesome coded advantage, but ironically, I haven't seen a single elf take advantage of it ;)
Seriously, people need to drop the c-elf karma idea. Karma is only instituted to keep a balance in the game and reward players who have good RP ability or the ability to impact the game; so making c-elf a karma race would accomplish neither of those things.
Also I'm sure if the imms notice players playing c-elves way out of line they'll just take them off of said players account, in which case they'll have the prove that they're a mature enough role-player to earn them back.
OK.. all elves = 1-karma AND they get slightly more stamina than an erdlu, allowing them to go a bit farther and still be able to forage.
I don't think city-elves are going to become a karma race.
I love how this discussion comes up as we approach Arm 2.0, where it will likely make no difference...
...but you know, we've had this discussion before and I don't care what everyone else's arguments are this time around.
My opinions, if elves could be changed before the end of Arm 1.0 or if they will be in Arm 2.0? There shouldn't be any difference between city and desert elves. There should just be 'elf' and they should be a hybrid of what city and desert elves are now. No elves should be anything but nomadic tribes. Individual tribes may differ, but there shouldn't be this grand over-reaching 'desert elves don't like cities!' mentality that I see in most of them. They should be happy to go into cities and dupe the short-legs. In short, all elven tribes should be more like the Sun runners.
Quote from: spawnloser on February 04, 2009, 11:52:39 AM
I love how this discussion comes up as we sloooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwly approach Arm 2.0, where it will likely make no difference...
Two elven races doesn't make sense to me, give them all delves, or celves. So yeah, that made me just agree with spawn loser, I am sorely offended.
Quote from: FightClub on February 04, 2009, 04:20:25 PM
Two elven races doesn't make sense to me, give them all delves, or celves.
I have always been of this opinion. After all D-elves are just d-elves that came in the walls, and decided to stay.
I would say that Jul Tavan (d-humans) get the same skills/stats as c-humans, but then again. :shrug:
If you want to buff up city elves:
So they can run around Allanak endlessly, but a road outside the city is just too much for them. Huh? I would suggest codedly changing them to be able to run (and only run, not walk) in outside roads for 1 mv. Only roads, which are essentially the same as a trash filled rinth alley or Allanak street they can run endlessly. Of course, they would still suck (or even suck more) in non-road outside terrain.
If they can't run in Tuluk, should be fixed. I remember elves (at least in Allanak and a bit in old Tuluk) running everywhere. You should expect an elf to be running, IMHO.
Probably a stretch, but create a C-elf only speed that is somewhere between their run and their walk, but is in fact a seperate sneak/hide speed (with negative modifiers for success) so that they can sneak, walk, fastsneak or run. As above, if you expect to see elves running, they should be able to blend in doing so.
I think that would fix things I see wrong with c-elves, at least, other than lack of open tribes.
I think some of the things city-elves get are under-utilized.
I mean, you can already sneak so fast that -nobody- can possibly shadow you, except another elf. If you run, nobody can shadow you (without magick). That's a powerful ability if you use it correctly.
And I mean...if you've never played a city-elf pickpocket, I suggest you do it and prioritize agility first.
But like I said previously, the code things aren't really the problem: it's the general lack of support for city-elf tribes. The one time I played in a coded tribe, it was fucking amazing, and it really brought out the best in me, I think (only time I've ever gotten kudos for anything).
QuoteI would suggest codedly changing them to be able to run (and only run, not walk) in outside roads for 1 mv.
This doesn't make much sense to me. As far as I remember, c-elves also lose more stamina from walking than running in the wilderness (could be mistaken), and I don't see how that's realistic. Is it really possible for a bipedal creature to develop a physique that makes it less strenuous to run than to walk? And what's the reason for wanting them to be able to only run and not walk effectively on roads anyway?
Because I have a personal agenda of seeing city elves start running again, instead of walking?
Well, if they could do both with equal efficiency, they would run when it's IC to run and walk when it's IC to walk. I can't find a plausible reason why it would be less tiring to run than to walk.
The problem I have is when I see city elves acting like humans, and/or people treating them like humans. If this is happening because the elf is trying to pull a scam of some kind, or the human is trying to "elf" the elf, that's all fine and good. It's just really disappointing to see a city elf blindly giving its trust over to someone not of his tribe, or a human blindly giving trust to a city elf. Elves are all thieving scum, and even when they're being nice to you, it's because they're up to something. I would love to see more of that prejudice running rampant, and more elves swindling the hell out of those stupid roundears.
Imms, has there been any thought given to this?
I would honestly like to see city-elves fleshed out more. Even more than I would like to see desert-elves with more goodies, wagons or poop-code. (not that I mind any)
Thought has been given to city elves lately.
I know there are many who would roll c-elves if there was a clan for them that we could start with. I only avoided the race because when I was a total newb I knew the Byn was my best chance for survival in the south. Now, my notion is that c-elves DONT go outside. It isn't their way. They have become so adept at the city eco-system, they are ill equipped for outside anymore. Like cockroaches, only not as tough to kill. (And yes, I know there are roaches in the wild, they are just very attached to human settlements.)
There are a lot of c-elf clans/tribes in the Rinth.
The most famous - but usually almost closed for play is - Haruch Kemad.
Some are more widely known like - The Sandas and Dariki tribes.
Others exist too - but are not that well known - like - Valuren and Ka'nosh clans.
If you're really keen and are able to find a staff member with time on hand, you probably could get some documentation on these clans/tribes.
Of course, you can always make up your own virtual tribes.
As far as c-elf stats sucking - I'd have to agree with that statement....
I blatantly disagree with this whole thread. My c-elves were awesome.
C-elf stats only suck if stats are important to you. If stats are so important to you as to make an entire race 'suck' because they have stats that you don't agree with, perhaps you should take a look at your playstyle and consider what is truly important. C-elf stats are solid and do well in portraying the race as they should be portrayed in the world.
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason. We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however. Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
If you want a character who is buff and stat heavy, play a half giant. If you want a pc who exists purely on the force of wiles and cunning, who does not have a superior stat bracket, and who depends highly on social ties for survival in times of being hunted (as all c-elves inevitably are), then by all means enjoy your sharp eared c-elf.
It is a truth on Armageddon that not every player is cut out to play every race. Some people just can't handle dwarves (I am one of these). Other's can't handle elven lifestyle, either city or wild. Still others hate the stupidity they are forced to roleplay with half-giants, so they avoid them.
Unfortunately the openly vocal anti-city-elven sentiment on the GDB has probably driven a lot of players away from them who would normally have tried them and possibly enjoyed the experience. Such things happen easily, as a biased post can change the course of a decision quite quickly for the uninformed.
/\/\/\
The only thing I think c.elves need is the ability to run in cities without hits to their mvs pool. If this were the case, they'd be almost perfectly balanced (and would reflect the current documentation).
Quote from: Eloran on May 26, 2009, 07:30:25 PM
/\/\/\
The only thing I think c.elves need is the ability to run in cities without hits to their mvs pool. If this were the case, they'd be almost perfectly balanced (and would reflect the current documentation).
This is already in place. At least in quite a few areas that I've experienced.
If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?
The amount of denial in this thread is mind-boggling.
Quote from: Nile on May 26, 2009, 07:36:53 PM
This is already in place. At least in quite a few areas that I've experienced.
In my experience this has not been the case. Granted, the last c.elf I played was some time ago. It's good to hear though.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 27, 2009, 11:12:27 AM
I'd like to start a discussion on what might make the city-elf race more appealing to the playerbase. For as long as I've played here, this race has been lacking in all aspects of the game, and it's hardly any surprise that they're largely unplayed. I believe the main thee reasons are these:
> C-elf stats suck. They're not good for anything except pickpockets and perhaps magickers. They would also make good merchants in terms of the code, but noone in their right mind would attempt this. I wouldn't even make a c-elf burglar because their abysmal strength makes it hard to carry much without suffering coded penalties. Pickpocket is perhaps the least played guild short of sorcerer and psionicist (not even sure about that), so this isn't much of a saving grace. For anything related to combat, c-elf stats are prohibitively low, most importantly the strength which leaves them far, far behind other races. Ever since the "defense fix" which drastically reduced the effectiveness of agility as a defensive boost, c-elf warriors and assassins have been all but unplayable for anyone marginally concerned with their character's coded prowess. I believe this to be the biggest cause for the lack of c-elf PCs.
Possible solutions:
- Strength really, really needs to be balanced out for the non-mul/giant races. There's a staggering disparity between the upper and lower range of strength, to the point where such a difference will put two characters apart in terms of fighting prowess in ways that skill can never make up for. Most importantly, low strength needs to be less of a disadvantage in armed combat. Consistently doing no more than nicks and grazes with an obsidian sword just because your strength is below average is not only unrealistic but also a huge playability issue.
- Agility's contribution to defense should be increased. This is not only to make up for the offensive disadvantage of having low strength, but so that high strength doesn't indirectly give a bigger defensive boost than agility due to one's ability to wear proper armor. A c-elf generally can't wear any armor, or nothing heavier than light leathers, so when their superhuman agility does very little to help them defend themselves, it's a balance issue that affects the game negatively. Agility's current effects on defensive skills is nothing that just a day or two of moderate sparring won't even out, and the difference between light leather and heavy chitin armor is infinitely greater than the difference between good and exceptional agility.
> C-elves don't ride, but unlike their desert cousins, they lack the ability that makes up for this. This makes no sense, I don't see any reason why a race would limit themselves so much out of pride in an ability that they don't have, and it's a significant problem. Being a c-elf means you pretty much can't leave the gates of whatever settlement you're bound to, and this alone deters a lot of players. It also makes c-elf characters even less useful to the select few organizations that might consider hiring one.
Possible solutions:
- Rather than seeing c-elves suddenly riding around, I would prefer them to have some ability to travel the desert without a mount. Give them stamina losses that closely resemble the desert-elf race and leave their stamina pool as it is. This would let them get from Allanak to Red Storm or maybe Luir's without great difficulty, but not allow them to run to Tuluk and back on a whim.
- Simply let c-elves ride. I'm not too fond of this one, but it's borderline retarded that they refuse to ride out of pride in an ability that they don't have.
> There's no c-elf culture to speak of. Short of the rinth's east-side section, which has never been active enough to suffice, there's just no place in the world where a c-elves won't be among people who hate them. Surely such a numerous race would have carved out a niche for themselves in each larger center of population? There's a couple of coded tribes in one area of the game, but they're not readily accessible and they're strictly non-lawful in nature.
Possible solutions:
- Make smaller elven sectors in each city-state. Tuluk has a shred of this, but obviously not enough to build any kind of playerbase around.
- Make coded, not-necessarily-criminal c-elf clans where they can have some purpose and recognition.
- Flesh out the rinth more so that there isn't so little to do without direct player interaction which has always been sporadic at best.
Discuss.
I agree with the original post. It's a very gutsy article to write, and it's 95% spot on.
He did miss one important point -- that PCs really go out on a limb to fuck with city-elves in a way that they never would a desert-elf or a half-breed. Mostly, this is due to bad role-playing and it's difficult get past.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 26, 2009, 07:37:12 PM
If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?
The amount of denial in this thread is mind-boggling.
I'll take a stab at this: because it requires smarts to keep one alive, and a willingness to sacrifice combat badassery.
When combined with the inability to easily integrate with the majority of the playerbase, you have a lonely role.
I don't think they are broken, per se, but due to the stringent documentation, they are cut off from the playerbase in many ways. They are often forced to assume a far more parasitical role than is fun to play out for the long-term.
In the second go-round of Armageddon, I hope to see more "I dislike you, but I also need you for this" conflict and less "I dislike you, and have no reason to be forced to interact with you anyway" - one of those brings the playerbase into friction, the other divides and separates, which is not much fun and beats the purpose of an interactive world.
One thing I like about the elven tribe in Tuluk is that it seems to tackle some of the above problems.
Quote from: Niamh on February 13, 2009, 09:29:29 AM
The problem I have is when I see city elves acting like humans, and/or people treating them like humans. If this is happening because the elf is trying to pull a scam of some kind, or the human is trying to "elf" the elf, that's all fine and good. It's just really disappointing to see a city elf blindly giving its trust over to someone not of his tribe, or a human blindly giving trust to a city elf. Elves are all thieving scum, and even when they're being nice to you, it's because they're up to something. I would love to see more of that prejudice running rampant, and more elves swindling the hell out of those stupid roundears.
If elves are all thieving scum, and this is public knowledge, how would they ever be able to swindle anyone? People just wouldn't deal with them.
Part of the problem with city elves is that they seem to be played in a sequence of lonely individual elves. If there were a few banding together, they could enter the Gaj and not have to put up with all the shit, for example.
I still remember the old elven market of Allanak along with Jindo's Gambling House and the Elf's Pocket Tavern. That was a seriously elven place, and going into it could be a bit risky. City elves could use a haven like that, but I guess it's been more or less moved into the 'rinth.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 26, 2009, 07:37:12 PM
If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?
Lack of coded tribes (which has changed of late). Take a ride up to Tuluk and you will see plenty of c-elves running around.
And their stats don't suck, their stats suck for someone who wants to play WTFpwning combative PCs.
Their stats are great for the following 0 karma guilds.
Warrior Assassin
Burglar
Merchant
Pickpocket
Ranger (iffy)
QuoteIf city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?
The amount of denial in this thread is mind-boggling.
QuoteIt is a truth on Armageddon that not every player is cut out to play every race. Some people just can't handle dwarves (I am one of these). Other's can't handle elven lifestyle, either city or wild. Still others hate the stupidity they are forced to roleplay with half-giants, so they avoid them.
Well now, that was easy.
That reply that was posted by Shaloonsh before Synthesis's question and very rude assertion.
Now, that reply is the quote that I think people very much need to realize. If you don't find a race enjoyable, it is -not- an issue of the race being broken, or poorly made, or 'under-powered'. It is a facet of the world that you, obviously, do not find as particularly interesting. I've said it pretty often when these types of threads come up, and one or two of the staff have agreed, though I don't recall if they made it an 'official' position.
Races and classes are -not- 'balanced'. They aren't supposed to be. They aren't supposed to be on equal ground in every single encounter you can come up with, or in every single piece of employment, or in every single opportunity. But what they -do- function as is a -role- to be played in this -role-playing game-.
I say again. City elves...have always been absolutely fine for me. More than fine, even, if you follow the very available guides and documentation on what, exactly, you should be looking for out of them. Even the small amount of city-elf tribes coded in is...not...an overwhelming issue for me, at all. It's easy to go around unless you're trying to make some overwhelmingly popular character who REALLY, ACTUALLY, likes everyone they pretend to, and then yeah...it might be a barrier. But you shouldn't have made that character, either, unless you acknowledge how messed up that was going to end up.
The only 2 kudos I've ever gotten were for playing city-elves.
I still think they're hopelessly borked, in a number of ways.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason. We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however. Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...
I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?
IT is only off limits when you want coded stuff from the Imms.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason.
...
Is this something we have any hope of getting an explanation on?
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 26, 2009, 10:00:49 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason.
...
Is this something we have any hope of getting an explanation on?
Because if you're in a coded c-elf tribe in the 'rinth, you basically have Templar-like ability to PK with the use of your clan NPCs.
QuoteBecause if you're in a coded c-elf tribe in the 'rinth, you basically have Templar-like ability to PK with the use of your clan NPCs.
I wouldn't call it templar-like, and if that's the actual reason, then some people are absolutely horrible at following clan documentation.
Quote from: Delstro on May 26, 2009, 09:49:07 PM
IT is only off limits when you want coded stuff from the Imms.
I don't think this is correct. I believe D-elves must pick one of the coded, documented tribes. Anything else must be special apped. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
And as for the C-elf thing, I don't think Synth's reason is a 'good reason' at all. Just change that particular ability and allow PC's into the coded tribes without the benefits of NPC pals. I would love to play more Celves but rarely do because there's no tribal or familiy support, which is very important, for me at least, in any elven role.
D-elves, last I head, DO have to pick a coded tribe. C-elves don't have that obligation. However, neither can have a new coded tribe input because of their efforts to make a tribe non-virtual.
Quote from: jcljules on May 26, 2009, 09:10:23 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason. We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however. Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...
I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?
Sorry, this was a mis-statement by myself. There are v-tribes in place which can be used, for example, Sand Jakhals and Seven Spears. You can not, however, make up "Delerak's Elf Tribe Of Uber Doom" which hates all templars, goes into a blood rage at the sight of silk, and worships the void, fire, and wind.
This restriction is in place to prevent a sudden cropping of 200 desert elf vtribes which leave the built and steady real tribes empty of membership because people have a concept that just slightly doesn't fit.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 26, 2009, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 26, 2009, 07:37:12 PM
If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?
Lack of coded tribes (which has changed of late). Take a ride up to Tuluk and you will see plenty of c-elves running around.
And their stats don't suck, their stats suck for someone who wants to play WTFpwning combative PCs.
Their stats are great for the following 0 karma guilds.
Warrior
Assassin
Burglar
Merchant
Pickpocket
Ranger (iffy)
Spot on.
I personally just don't enjoy playing them because I don't enjoy playing thieving/scamming characters. Same reason I don't generally play burglars or assassins.
I don't think the race is broken, but I do think that the relative lonliness of the role of an elf, in general, as opposed to just about any other race but a mul, is a large part of what is offputting to people who don't play them.
It's not a very social role (depending), the documents make for a race whose mindset can be very restrictive, and, although the stats that they have seem to fit their role in the world quite well, the strength penalty is a huge detractor. Though I think with some people, myself included, it has less to do with combat and more to do with how much you can carry.
Whoever crossed out the warrior guild there hasn't been exposed to the 30+ day elven warrior, apparently. Which isn't bad, seeing how there are few who play it for that class, but uh...whoever decided it's horrible in comparison to a human warrior or dwarf warrior doesn't know jack.
Claims that elves can't be badass warriors, please meet Pendeh.
Thank you, I know it hurts, it hurts so bad. Come again to be debunked another day.
No, an elf isn't going to dish out damage like a mul, but they can be unstoppable dervishes of doom. I've seen it.
lol.
Stats arn't the problem.
And c-elves can't even be rangers.
And yeah. Pendeh.
And actually, I wan't to modify this a bit to say that it's almost impossible to play an c-elf warrior unless you just want to guard the Kuraci taverns. Or do the 'rinth/undertuluk I guess.
That's the way I see it.
Nobody's been exposed to a 30+ day city-elf warrior because there's only been like 2, ever.
Huh, I wonder why? Shitty HP + shitty armor (lack of strength) + shitty damage FTL, maybe?
Yeah, a city-elf can be good if you roll bizawesomeomgwtf stats...but unless you go around suiciding all your shitty rolls, that's unlikely to happen. Personally, I probably wouldn't even blame someone for suiciding every city-elf they get that rolls lower than vgood/vgood. That's about the minimum playable if you -ever- expect to get in a fight.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 27, 2009, 03:40:55 AM
Nobody's been exposed to a 30+ day city-elf warrior because there's only been like 2, ever.
Huh, I wonder why? Shitty HP + shitty armor (lack of strength) + shitty damage FTL, maybe?
Yeah, a city-elf can be good if you roll bizawesomeomgwtf stats...but unless you go around suiciding all your shitty rolls, that's unlikely to happen. Personally, I probably wouldn't even blame someone for suiciding every city-elf they get that rolls lower than vgood/vgood. That's about the minimum playable if you -ever- expect to get in a fight.
My own D-Elf warrior had a.average/average. He was invincible at about 15 days, just like every other 15 day warrior.
The problem with being a c-elf warrior is that you can't go anywhere to actually fight.
QuoteNobody's been exposed to a 30+ day city-elf warrior because there's only been like 2, ever.
Your memory serves you poorly, or you haven't paid much attention until this discussion came up.
QuoteHuh, I wonder why? Shitty HP + shitty armor (lack of strength) + shitty damage FTL, maybe?
Quite a statement there, particularly when just thrown out. No, you won't see an elf wearing platemail. That doesn't make them shitty, and actually kinda fits the style they go for and become said dervish of doom.
QuoteYeah, a city-elf can be good if you roll bizawesomeomgwtf stats...but unless you go around suiciding all your shitty rolls, that's unlikely to happen. Personally, I probably wouldn't even blame someone for suiciding every city-elf they get that rolls lower than vgood/vgood. That's about the minimum playable if you -ever- expect to get in a fight.
The more you contribute to these threads recently, the more it becomes apparent that you get most of your 'data' from characters with less than two days of playing time on them.
QuoteThe problem with being a c-elf warrior is that you can't go anywhere to actually fight.
There's actually a clan that is very present everywhere where city elf warriors fit in quite nicely. That aside...I hear most people like playing independents anyway.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 27, 2009, 03:50:18 AM
QuoteThe problem with being a c-elf warrior is that you can't go anywhere to actually fight.
There's actually a clan that is very present everywhere where city elf warriors fit in quite nicely. That aside...I hear most people like playing independents anyway.
Well yeah. That's what I mean't when I said this:
QuoteAnd actually, I wan't to modify this a bit to say that it's almost impossible to play an c-elf warrior unless you just want to guard the Kuraci taverns. Or do the 'rinth/undertuluk.
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 27, 2009, 03:22:29 AM
Claims that elves can't be badass warriors, please meet Pendeh.
Wasn't Pendeh a d-elf?
Personally, I see no problems with city elves. Can't wait to play another one. A c-elf in a tribe would be fuckin' wicked.
...wait. If I remember right, Pendeh was actually a d-elf.
I know he could run through the desert just fine.
Edit: lol
In a way, I think Pendeh is actually the ideal I'm trying to grasp for when I'm bitching all over the place about elves.
I want my mercenary c-elf that can run. Very employable and very badass.
Shame I need to spec-app for it.
Pendeh was not a coded desert elf, and didn't have desert elf perks.
That's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.
My last character was a 13-day city-elf assassin, who was almost fully branched (lacked 2 skills, if I recall), and had racked up about 8 or so pkills and tens of thousands of 'sid worth of loot.
I still wouldn't ever play a city-elf again, that's how stupidly bad he was.
It's not that I don't enjoy playing city-elves...it's simply that there wasn't a single thing he could do that a human, dwarf, or half-elf couldn't do better, and more easily, while actually interacting with people beyond borderline griefing.
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 27, 2009, 04:05:40 AM
Pendeh was not a coded desert elf, and didn't have desert elf perks.
That's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.
That doesn't make any sense. He could run in the desert just fine.
City elves can run maybe 15-20 rooms before they are out of stamina.
We're talking about the same elf right? From 2004-2005 ish?
This thread makes me want to make my next few characters c-elves just to boost the PC representation. I love them. Just need more proper tribes in the south. Virtual tribes are kinda boring, and kinda border on poweremoting with how elves are always getting their friends to bully others.
I wouldn't say that c-elves make very good assassins either. IMHO, second worst class, codedly. Might be OK if you have a elven assassin concept, but good luck getting that to work.
Quote from: Jingo on May 27, 2009, 05:34:52 AM
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 27, 2009, 04:05:40 AM
Pendeh was not a coded desert elf, and didn't have desert elf perks.
That's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.
That doesn't make any sense. He could run in the desert just fine.
City elves can run maybe 15-20 rooms before they are out of stamina.
We're talking about the same elf right? From 2004-2005 ish?
I didn't play with Pendeh so I can't offer much input on that subject, but city elves can run more than 15-20 rooms if they wear stamina-boosting gear and stick to the roads.
Sharak's old enough to be mentioned on the boards at this point, so I'm going to throw him out as an example, as well. However, I remember the difference in sparring Sharak before and after the parry nerf was pretty staggering. My then-Trooper went from getting her ass handed to her by Sharak to being juuuust about able to win sparring matches against him with that single code change.
That could be a reason why there aren't all that many city elf warriors around these days.
I melee'd Sharak with a non-melee class once and wasn't murdered immediately. Basically, stats won in that case. Granted, I was surprised.
Also, Pendeh existed before the parry/defense changes. Pendeh would be murdered in a straight up melee by any warrior of higher strength if both combattants had relatively similar skills.
Right now elves are so terrible in melee veruses other races. A human with high strength and decent skill can chop them. Strength wins. Until Agility does more for combat/ranged skill then I don't forsee many people playing elven warriors.
Low strength is so terrible right now... I've seen humans with low strength have their blows consistantly bounce off of a mortally wounded target. I can only imagine the woes of playing an elf with less than good or very good strength.
I forgot about the parry/defense changes.
But he was definitely a city elf, and definitely kicked ass, as a character and as a warrior.
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 27, 2009, 06:47:14 AM
Also, Pendeh existed before the parry/defense changes. Pendeh would be murdered in a straight up melee by any warrior of higher strength if both combattants had relatively similar skills.
Yeah. Maybe. If you could
find one of relatively similar skill.
Pendeh was a city-elf warrior, and was in the game a very long time. He was a shit brickhouse of a combatant, and not because he could wtfpwn you with one or two hits. His was a death by papercuts only in the sparring ring, and with an actual weapon in his hands,
he could not miss you, and proceed to tear anything he touched to pieces. Anything suffering from the defense nerf, if he was still around, would be completely and utterly at the mercy of his relentless assault. Defense nerf works both ways, in the case of powerful, long-lived warriors.
However, I think it's important to consider that what was possible before the nerf, would still be possible given advanced play-time and training in-game.
He had above avg or avg strength and very good agility. He also came in before the elf wisdom nerf, so later on his wisdom was on the high end by the new standards. His endurance was good. He wasn't uber statted, and stats only go so far, when skill is taken into account. I've been there, I've played it, I've rocked it.
Also, my 2 cents is this - if it were up to me, I would see the city elves get their running ability no matter where it is that they run. Let them suffer from their lack of stamina compared to other races, and compared to the d.elves, but don't take away the pride of their ability to run. I mailed the imms with that concern 4 or 5 years ago, and I guess they thought it was only because I wanted my leet perks. Which wasn't exactly the case, since I'd been playing Pendeh well over 80 days at that point, and saw that any noobie elf that wanted anything to do with the desert was not going to be as savvy and good as I was doing it, and would be the equivalent of a human walking in the desert.. with less stamina.
I hope the staff take a second look at that sometime, and say to themselves, "Well. The Elves have the ability to run, and that is their pride.. maybe for
playability's sake we should give the c.elves the ability to run with their outstanding 105 stamina, no matter where they go, and let the d.elves keep their lesser need for water, and desert perks."
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 27, 2009, 04:05:40 AMThat's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.
That player must have had the patience of a saint. Just because kicking ass with a GIGANTIC handicap is badass doesn't mean it's a great idea for everyone...especially people who just want a playable game.
Quote from: LauraMars on May 27, 2009, 01:42:03 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 27, 2009, 04:05:40 AMThat's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.
That player must have had the patience of a saint. Just because kicking ass with a GIGANTIC handicap is badass doesn't mean it's a great idea for everyone...especially people who just want a playable game.
Well over 100 days played, spending much of that in the desert. In case I wasn't clear enough I'm the one that played him, and I agree that it's not for everyone because not all players have the savvy to do it. Considering the defense nerf, and the evil that are desert creatures, I think it's about time that city elves are given a little something extra. At least the ability to run away from those desert critters a little better then the average human.
I find it interesting that the player of the character held up as "see, c-elves can rock" has posted that c-elves need a little love.
Nonetheless, I also find myself, for the first time ... drawn to playing one ... because the challenge sounds interesting.
I must be sick.
You know that one mugger in the rinth with about 3 other muggers hiding around him that all jump you when you walk by with something pretty on?
I murdered them.
All.
Alone.
With a 3 hour c elf warrior. It was my second fight of the game.
I don't see a problem with c-elf stats that you guys see. My last C-elf was an assassin and he was decently wicked in a fight as well.
Two things I've spotted while browsing through this post that I WOULD like to see, though:
Stamina! Give C-Elves 3/4 of stamina of D-elves, and make it cost 1 extra Stam point per room to run through the desert. It would realistically bridge the gap between the proud, fierce, desert elves and the tall, angular, bi-lingual humans we play now!
Tribe! It's disgusting to know that every elf you meet in the city is from another tribe, or isn't tribed at all. I say players with 1 karma point (the requirement for D-elves) should be able to get in on coded city tribes that might own their own building somewhere or something. Or just tribes that are okay to use as backgrounds, but don't own SHIT for property.
We would definately see an uprise in players playing C-elves, which is good because it lends to the game. As it is now you rarely see one in Allanak (non-rinthi, at least). And when you do, people act like a mantis just walked in and ordered a drink!
I see there is now one up in Tuluk, but if I'm correct I think it had to be established IC by PCs, which is cool.
As it is, I've always liked seeing the c-elf tribes active. Especially in the Rinth, which is where I roll at least 1/4 of my characters. ;) It's so neat and intriguing, but these rolls are very few and far between, unfortunately.
I've been thinking about playing a c-elf also, but until strength becomes less overpowering in melee combat I can't realistically see myself being in a role that involves much melee.
I'm still going to stick to my position that a human/dwarf of equal skill (yet different stats obviously) as a present-day Pendeh would pwn the elf. No offense to your accomplishment, Mr. B, but strength totally rocks in terms of combat right now. I played a half-elf magicker who can do unspeakable hits to braxat and mantis with a non-magick weapon and 0 weapon skills. And no, these mantis and braxat were not asleep or under any adverse magicks. Mantis are definitely not slow and the thought of a magicker doing unspeakable damage to one because of his strength alone is ludicrous.
I would really like to see agility do more for combat, thus making elves more viable in melee roles.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 27, 2009, 02:56:21 PM
And when you do, people act like a mantis just walked in and ordered a drink!
This is what I hate, too. Racism is fine, but a bar turning into a lynch mob when an elf comes in is too much.
City elves rock. Plain and simple.
OOCLY they are one of the most versatile races to play - and can easily carry off any role/guild combo you can think of.
If you're concerned about IC discrimination - it's always gonna be part and parcel of the elven race, just like the gemmers. Dealing with it - without getting bogged down by it - is the elven way.
As with all races, guilds and population in the various locations of the game - there are cyclic changes. You just might not see so many c-elves around right now, but in a few months, you might see so many that you'll be sick of them and sleeping with your coinpurse tucked in your crotch!
I personally don't think its an overall dislike for the c-elf race, that's causing the current dearth - it should be attributed to players playing other roles atm - that's all.
C-elf stats is another matter. I won't comment on it - the issue's been discussed ad nauseam.
City elves? Versatile? That makes me lol.
Versatile compared to a PC who is codedly blind, maybe.
When you can only join 1 clan, it sucks and prevents you from playing with characters.
i.e. magickers, elves, mutants, etc.
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 27, 2009, 06:47:14 AM
Right now elves are so terrible in melee veruses other races. A human with high strength and decent skill can chop them. Strength wins. Until Agility does more for combat/ranged skill then I don't forsee many people playing elven warriors.
Low strength is so terrible right now... I've seen humans with low strength have their blows consistantly bounce off of a mortally wounded target. I can only imagine the woes of playing an elf with less than good or very good strength.
I couldn't agree more. I think there might be a problem when a 30 day desert elven ranger with poor strength can't land one real hit on a 1 day dwarven warrior. Not that I've had a 30 day delf ranger, but if I did currently, and they had poor strength while fighting a dwarf, I would be surprised to see anything more than a graze, if that. But I derail (sorry), this would be more suitable in a 'combat problems' thread.
I think its more of a balance issue.....
Having too many coded clans with clanned NPCs who auto-assist other clan-mates, in such a small zone, is a sure-fire recipe for disaster, and just an open invitation for twinking.
2 coded clans for c-elves in the rinth and 2 coded clans for non-c-elves - that PCs can join (provided they are open for play, and provided you can find someone to recruit you ICLY).
Think about it - you know the ones I'm talkin bout, I'm not putting down the clan names on the forum here. (There's also a 3rd coded clan for c-elves, which isnt that well known, but again - joinable by PCs).
Besides those five, there are other coded rinthi clans - which are ok to use as background, but probably will not earn you a coded clan flag anytime soon.
If you're really looking to "belong" in a c-elf tribe, its a good idea to write in to the c-elf staff - they're quite likely to guide you and also provide some info on the available options and some documentation to go along with it.
I don't mean to come off as someone who's just posting stuff for the sake of it - I've played in all five of these clans at some point - and my aim is to just let everyone know what possibilities are out there.
I really hope we'll have a c-elf tribes webpage sometime soon with basic info/documentation to go with it - to augment the rinthi-c-elf experience.
I think the coded clans in the rinth are cool. I would love to see the place actually segregated. If you're a human, you shouldn't be walking into elftribex's territory, and if you do, you should expect to get pwned.
A warrior celf with above good/v good strength can fuck some people up if you as a player know how to play it. If you get below that, however... damn that sucks.
Another thought I had on the subject has less to do with combat and more to do with just interacting with the coded aspects of the world. There are many, many reasons why elf strength is a huge pain in the ass that have nothing to do with combat, and I think it's because most of the items in the game were designed to be used by humans.
If you don't roll high strength on your elf PC, you'll have problems with a whole slew of things aside from combat. You won't be able to, for instance, pick up an empty chest. You'll find yourself encumbered to the point of extra stamina drain while wearing nothing but sandcloth/linen clothing and a backpack with a waterskin in it. You won't be able to craft with certain raw materials because you will not be able to lift them up and hold them in your inventory. I've had all these problems and more playing a low-strength PC that I had no intention of throwing into combat at any point.
It would be nice if there were more items that had been culturally developed for city elves, like there are for desert elves in the various tribes and d-elf outpost. It doesn't make sense to me that there's thousands of elves living in all these settlements, all of them weak as a noodle and unable to pick up hides to tan or stones to chisel unless they're completely naked.
All that being said, I think it's doubtful that we're going to see any major changes to city elves as a race in Arm 1. However, I hope the folks working on Arm 2 take racial stat differences into account when they're developing the game's item database.
I like niche roles. I hope there are more like city-elves. If you don't like city elves, play a desert elf.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 26, 2009, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 26, 2009, 07:37:12 PM
If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?
Lack of coded tribes (which has changed of late). Take a ride up to Tuluk and you will see plenty of c-elves running around.
And their stats don't suck, their stats suck for someone who wants to play WTFpwning combative PCs.
Their stats are great for the following 0 karma guilds.
Warrior
Assassin
Burglar
Merchant
Pickpocket
Ranger (iffy)
City-elves can't be rangers.
QuoteAll that being said, I think it's doubtful that we're going to see any major changes to city elves as a race in Arm 1. However, I hope the folks working on Arm 2 take racial stat differences into account when they're developing the game's item database.
More elven items kicking around the city for C-elves, you say? Well, that's what I heard. You have to go to a desert outpost to find any elven items, as it stands, some weapons and armor aside. Desert elves seem to have a flair, and a little bit of EQ designed more for them (because of the materials, and availability). C-elves should have this same feel to them. Just like when I play a d-elf I say "I'm a d-elf. I ain't wearing travellers boots, I'm gonna find me some moccassins instead!" my C-elf should have this same dress code, I thinks. It could be as simple as making a up a word and putting "designed to be thin and long in the desc."
A white jooka-pooka
This shirt is stitched long, and thin, and has a butt ton of pockets for hiding other people's shit in.
IDK.
QuoteI think the coded clans in the rinth are cool. I would love to see the place actually segregated. If you're a human, you shouldn't be walking into elftribex's territory, and if you do, you should expect to get pwned.
IDK about the rest of you, but when I play a rinthi human, and I spot an elf on my side I fuck with him. Same goes with when I'm an elf, and I spot a human. God, you're all making me want to play a rinth elf now. :-\
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 28, 2009, 09:21:22 PM
IDK about the rest of you, but when I play a rinthi human, and I spot an elf on my side I fuck with him. Same goes with when I'm an elf, and I spot a human. God, you're all making me want to play a rinth elf now. :-\
That's a Human bias carrying over to when you plays elves.
Humans have racial loyalty. If a tiger attacks a human, most nearby humans will defend the human out of instinct.
Elves have tribal loyalty. If a tiger attacks an elf, most nearby elves will defend the elf
if the elf is a member of their own tribe.Racism is a human emotion. Most humans dislike nearly all elves.
Extra-tribal xenophobia is an elven emotion. Most elves hate humans who are outside their tribe no-more/no-less than they hate elves who are outside their tribe.
If anything, if an elf is forced to choose a short-term ally outside of their tribe, they would prefer a human over an elf.
Elves are paranoid, xenophobic and arrogant but they are not stupid. In terms of tactics, a human can be a valuable short-term ally for an elf because they are physically strong, (comparatively) naive, and less vindictive.
By contrast, elves can never trust elves outside of their tribe even for an hour, because they know with 100% certainty that other elves are (with 100% reliability) merely waiting for a good opportunity. Outside of their tribe, an elf will never be the friend of another elf. One always dominates the other, except for the unlikely event of a Mexican standoff. If an elf is voluntarily speaking with another elf, one of the elves is probably either really bored or really desperate.
Let me try to re-explain it this way.
A human will live in a human neighborhood because he likes it there. Crime is lower than in an elven neighborhood.
An elf will live in an elven neighborhood because he is not allowed to live in the human neighborhood. An elf would prefer to live somewhere where they are protected from crime, yet are surrounded by gullible, rich targets.
I'll try again to explain it:
Humans see elves as shifty, lazy and dishonest.
Elves see humans as fat and gullible. Basically, elves see humans the way that humans see half-giants.
Another illustration:
When out in public, a human will check their wallet twice an hour to make sure that it hasn't been lifted. An elf will check their wallet ninety times an hour to make sure that is hasn't been lifted.
A human check's their wallet by touching it (in their pocket or their purse) with their hand, reassuring themself that it's there. An elf can tell by the pressure of their wallet against their skin -- touching it their hand would be vulgar and superfluous, probably giving something away.
When an elf and a human are introduce to each other, an hour later the human will likely remember the elf's name, his town of origin and his stated occupation. The elf will remember the human's name, his town of origin, his stated occupation, the number of freckles on the human's neck, the amount of pressure in the human's handshake and perhaps most importantly where on his person the human keeps his wallet.
Edited to add:
Humans view money, power, education and beauty as a sign of status. For an elf to have status he needs to demonstrate the ability to take other people's wallets.
To insult a human, you make fun of his heritage or you insult his mother. You call him a round ear. This makes him mad.
An elf has their heritage, appearance and lineage insulted all the time, usually by humans. They don't care, they can laugh at this. If you want to make an elf mad you steal their wallet. Then you're a dead man.
First thing after work, a human is thinking of grabbing a bath, grabbing dinner, grabbing a meal. First thing after work, an elf is thinking of grabbing your wallet. An elf is either asleep, drunk or plotting to steal something.
In the conflicts between human communities and elven tribes, humans think that they are winning. Humans control more land, have greater numbers and sharper weapons. In short, humans have all the things that they think are important.
In the conflicts between human communities and elven tribes, the elves think they they are winning. They've stolen your wallet. Your wallet, motherfucker. Elves control the things that they think are important.
Edited again:
Jack has a rather good retort below. I don't think anyone really thinks I was attempting to single him out or jump down his throat. It just seemed the appropriate time to voice a few opinions I've held for a while. Oh, and I meant nothing bad about your role-play. We're currently in the same clan and I'm a huge fan of your character.
Yeah....
But also.
It's the rinth.
*score*
If he's attacking at random, he could be attacking ANYONE. (My tribe included.) Those looking for blood find it. Those looking for boots, find them too. Usually on the corpses of those looking for blood.
Really, I doubt it's bad RP to give a human a healthy dose of fear about walking into an area controlled, patrolled, and propriatised soley by elves. Tribal blah blah or not. But that falls on the character, not the mentality of the race as a whole.
Well, this thread was supposed to be about city-elf problems and solutions.
I've always kind of liked playing city-elves. Most of the time that I got kudos from staff or props from my fellow players, it was from playing a city-elf. I don't think that I have any characters that other players will remember, except for a couple of city-elves.
That being said, I would be extremely fucking hesitant to play another city-elf, for a few reasons.
When I have played city-elves, I have played them very street and that tends to drive them into a sort of pattern.
I can't buff up their combat abilities. There are few opportunities to practice killing things inside the city. Their combat abilities start off being good without being terrific, and never improve much from there.
I can't get involved in formal game clans. There are a few exceptions to this, however as a general rule most clan leaders would have to be daft to hire me and my role-playing would have to be questionable for me to accept a job, unless it were as pretext for some kind of heist. In the long run, a clan is no place for an elf.
There's no place for me to hang out. Any of the places that I PCs congregate are effectively off limit because the stronger role-players will (for obvious reason) have little to do with me. Any attention shown to me by other PCs is usually aggression that exceeds the scope of what would be reasonable for racism, instead illustrating boredom on the part of the player. Heaven-forbid a player voluntarily lower their character's guard so that I can do a bit of stealing, providing mutual amusement. Out of the question.
My coded skills/stats/abilities are, as other player have complained, unreasonably low. I can't steal at the level that a ninja master would, which is precisely how good you would be at the age of twenty-five if you've been doing it since you were five.
So basically there is nothing to do. And staff tend to frown upon urban-criminal types anyway and are biased towards law+order types (although I still love the staff).
Quote from: ibusoe on May 29, 2009, 12:21:01 AM
And staff tend to frown upon urban-criminal types anyway and are biased towards law+order types (although I still love the staff).
orly?
Non-'rinthi/warrens, city-based criminals are hard to play. There are a limited number of PCs you can interact with, a limited number of places you can go, and a limited number of things to do in general. This kind of role takes a lot of patience, dedication and restraint to pull off. City elves tend to be limited to this kind of difficult role by both IC prejudice and by what is IC for an elf's behavior. I think the problem isn't with city-elves themselves. Most likely, it's that city-based criminals tend to get bored. Compounding the problem is that a lot of sneaky-types will try to twink up their skills before trying to get involved in plots...
...This is probably where the above supposed Immortal prejudice comes from. It's far more tempting and far easier for a criminal-type to twink out than for law-and-order types. I think we've all seen evidence of this twinking, which unfortunately is an abuse of the semi-new crimcode. I get ticked off when my character walks down a road at a certain time of IC day and sees an NPC corpse there, repeatedly over the course of several IC days/weeks. I'm sure the Imms get ticked off too.
Quote from: ibusoe on May 29, 2009, 12:21:01 AM
So basically there is nothing to do. And staff tend to frown upon urban-criminal types anyway and are biased towards law+order types (although I still love the staff).
From this alone it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 29, 2009, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: ibusoe on May 29, 2009, 12:21:01 AM
So basically there is nothing to do. And staff tend to frown upon urban-criminal types anyway and are biased towards law+order types (although I still love the staff).
From this alone it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.
That is not any where close to the truth. Agree with RGS here.
I rather liked every other sentence ibusoe wrote. Don't discredit him for just that one sentence.
Tagging in on the bandwagon to agree with RGS.
Also,
QuoteAny of the places that I PCs congregate are effectively off limit because the stronger role-players will (for obvious reason) have little to do with me.
Disagree here. It seems to me that strong roleplayers are more likely to factor the massive elven populace of cities (30+ % comes to mind, but don't quote me. That might be Dark Sun (not trying to open another arguement there)), and realize the potential benefits of not acting like this elf sitting in the bar is somehow worse than the one he bought his boots from in the bazaar without a second thought given. Who hates and harasses elves? Bynners! Who commonly sees the value of, and employs elves under the table? - NOBLES! Or criminals, but where do you draw the line there? hehe. :-\
Weak roleplayers jump on the bandwagon. Strong RPers think for themselves. Not saying that it's bad RP to hate elves, I'm just speaking on the whole. Unfortunately, all too often I'm the former and not the latter.
Possible Solution? Elf awareness month?
I don't see low strength as being a monumental handicap. I think the thing that would help out elves the most would be something for them to do besides steal, try unsuccessfully to sell, and possibly join the Byn. As I've mentioned before, more active coded city tribes. (There's one in Tuluk, but where's the love in Allanak? Huh?) And not just in the rinth - even though those ones are never active anyways. I think the biggest problem with elves is that we
don't see any and who can blame players? As things now stand you're essentially picking a role where you'll log in and no one will speak to you except the 1 or 2 newbs who occassionally poke around, but even then you can't really do too much with them, because you can't trust them half as far as you can throw their skinny asses, and will not trust them that far for at least 2 RL months! Essentially, as the city elf stands, it's a race for unemployable loners.
Quote from: SMuz on May 29, 2009, 11:13:43 PM
I rather liked every other sentence ibusoe wrote. Don't discredit him for just that one sentence.
Some the things wrote out was worth wild. I just completely disagree with that one sentence is all.
I love city elves, and have played quite a few rinthi-or-not. My second favorite race next to desert elf.
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on May 30, 2009, 12:54:09 AM
Quote from: SMuz on May 29, 2009, 11:13:43 PM
I rather liked every other sentence ibusoe wrote. Don't discredit him for just that one sentence.
Some the things wrote out was worth wild. I just completely disagree with that one sentence is all.
I love city elves, and have played quite a few rinthi-or-not. My second favorite race next to desert elf.
Lol, so true they aren't the same race.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 11:42:19 PM
Quote from: jcljules on May 26, 2009, 09:10:23 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason. We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however. Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...
I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?
Sorry, this was a mis-statement by myself. There are v-tribes in place which can be used, for example, Sand Jakhals and Seven Spears. You can not, however, make up "Delerak's Elf Tribe Of Uber Doom" which hates all templars, goes into a blood rage at the sight of silk, and worships the void, fire, and wind.
This restriction is in place to prevent a sudden cropping of 200 desert elf vtribes which leave the built and steady real tribes empty of membership because people have a concept that just slightly doesn't fit.
...so it -is- possible to play in existing v-tribes? Such as the Seven Spears or Sand Jakhals?
Quote from: jcljules on May 30, 2009, 10:20:13 AM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 11:42:19 PM
Quote from: jcljules on May 26, 2009, 09:10:23 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason. We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however. Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...
I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?
Sorry, this was a mis-statement by myself. There are v-tribes in place which can be used, for example, Sand Jakhals and Seven Spears. You can not, however, make up "Delerak's Elf Tribe Of Uber Doom" which hates all templars, goes into a blood rage at the sight of silk, and worships the void, fire, and wind.
This restriction is in place to prevent a sudden cropping of 200 desert elf vtribes which leave the built and steady real tribes empty of membership because people have a concept that just slightly doesn't fit.
...so it -is- possible to play in existing v-tribes? Such as the Seven Spears or Sand Jakhals?
If you notify and clear it with desert elf staff first, yes, it would be fine. If not, then no.
What about uncoded city tribes?
Quote from: Shalooonsh on June 02, 2009, 04:43:46 PM
If you notify and clear it with desert elf staff first, yes, it would be fine. If not, then no.
Wow, never knew that! Would it be possible to get the tattoos and some of the distinctive clothing of that tribe, as well? Or are you pretty much on your own if you play from a v-tribe? And can you access the documentation of tribes that have been closed down codedly, but that you would like to play in anyway, without staff support?
Quote from: Eloran on June 02, 2009, 06:43:34 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on June 02, 2009, 04:43:46 PM
If you notify and clear it with desert elf staff first, yes, it would be fine. If not, then no.
With a little difference that no city tribes are listed as 'okay to use as a background' and... that answers my question nicely.
Quote from: jcljules on June 02, 2009, 06:44:48 PM
Wow, never knew that! Would it be possible to get the tattoos and some of the distinctive clothing of that tribe, as well?
If they exist, this is something to clear with the desert elf staff. If they do not exist, no.
QuoteOr are you pretty much on your own if you play from a v-tribe?
Yes. Absolutely.
QuoteAnd can you access the documentation of tribes that have been closed down codedly, but that you would like to play in anyway, without staff support?
No.
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 02, 2009, 06:51:23 PM
With a little difference that no city tribes are listed as 'okay to use as a background' and... that answers my question nicely.
You didn't ask that, you asked about "uncoded city tribes."
It's alright to use virtual tribes in your background if you don't choose a coded one. Seeing as how there is only one c.elf tribe currently coded
and open, it's only logical to assume every c.elf you see isn't an Akai Sjir. Hence, it's fine and dandy to play a c.elf in a virtual tribe. I make more sense that time?
I've left out one of the larger problems of playing a city-elf, but I will mention it here as well as a possible solution.
Basically, templars are often short on employees (money?) and so they decide it will be a neat idea to conscript any elves lying around to be spies/servants/errand-boys. It's fine in small doses, but the problem is that all templars do it. And it's actually fun once in a while, but often times when I make an elf I don't make the elf with the plan,
"Gee, why don't I make someone shifty and dishonest who will make the perfect lackey for some templar"
It happens a lot with guys who have never played a templar before -- they think their behavior is innovative and novel, but they're just doing the same thing all new templars do.
Really this more than any other factor is what stops me from making an elf character.
That isn't just a problem with templars and C-elves. They love my pick pockets of every race.
Wow,
It's ridiculously amazing how many people are complaining that elves aren't enough like humans in stats and social standing.
Elven stats rock. Period. I said it. So it's true. All of you who complain otherwise need a lesson in agility and speed. I can harass you. I can make you miserable. I can make you wish you had never entered the fucking rinth, or been born. And that's before I begin to hurt you, leave you for dead.. and most of all..rob you silly.
City elves who are successful tend to stay out of taverns in the commoners quarter unless business dictates. There are exceptions, but honestly the real problem most people seem to have is a lack of direction when playing a Celf. As a former imm and longtime storyteller within the rinth I can attest that there have been several dynamic elves of all concepts that were great elves. When the players have a few others to play with in the rinth things are fine.. soon as things get sparse a vast majority get bored and head southside to hobknob with the socialites. Celf is not a role for everyone. Do not misconstrue and assume that I believe that Celves playing southside are playing badly, it's just that most seem to ignore the fact that the majority of elves are stinking pieces of rinth filth and people have a GOOD reason to be suspicious of them at ALL times.
Try considering it a challenge having EVERYONE hate you. Remember high school? It's not that hard to visualize if you happen to have been an outcast. (Which I am sssuming some of you were)
Also, racism is real, deal with it. It's like... part of the fun of playing a Celf.
Celves definately DO NOT have any sort of templar-like abilities within the rinth. The clanned elves have the same benifits any other clan has. Clanmembers tend to favor their clanmates over the intruders. Though as long-time players of the rinth know, even that is not always the case. Ever been beaten down by your own clan because you were in the wrong place in the wrong time?
Elves as we know it will not exist in ArmII, I suggest looking at the good things about playing a Celf. Maybe those of you who love playing them will speak up? Or even better, get out there and play one to show the haters what a true piece of scum is.
THEM! ;D
Quote from: Bhagharva on June 07, 2009, 01:51:44 PM
Wow,
It's ridiculously amazing how many people are complaining that elves aren't enough like humans in stats and social standing.
Don't know what you're basing that argument on. As for stats, there have been suggestions of making low strength less crippling and high agility more of an advantage - not that elves should have stats closer to humans. And being closer to humans in regard to social standing? I have never heard anyone suggest it.
QuoteElven stats rock. Period. I said it. So it's true. All of you who complain otherwise need a lesson in agility and speed. I can harass you. I can make you miserable. I can make you wish you had never entered the fucking rinth, or been born. And that's before I begin to hurt you, leave you for dead.. and most of all..rob you silly.
I fail to see how your examples are in any way related to stats, nor how they are exclusive to elves. City-elf stats are the worst of any playable race and hardly anybody plays them. The reason for the latter is not that they rock, however mysterious that may seem.
QuoteCity elves who are successful tend to stay out of taverns in the commoners quarter unless business dictates. There are exceptions, but honestly the real problem most people seem to have is a lack of direction when playing a Celf. As a former imm and longtime storyteller within the rinth I can attest that there have been several dynamic elves of all concepts that were great elves. When the players have a few others to play with in the rinth things are fine.. soon as things get sparse a vast majority get bored and head southside to hobknob with the socialites. Celf is not a role for everyone. Do not misconstrue and assume that I believe that Celves playing southside are playing badly, it's just that most seem to ignore the fact that the majority of elves are stinking pieces of rinth filth and people have a GOOD reason to be suspicious of them at ALL times.
Try considering it a challenge having EVERYONE hate you. Remember high school? It's not that hard to visualize if you happen to have been an outcast. (Which I am sssuming some of you were)
Also, racism is real, deal with it. It's like... part of the fun of playing a Celf.
The problem is that your proposed manner of playing an elf leads to a severe shortage of interaction opportunities for most players. 90% of roleplay in this game takes place in taverns or clan compounds. You can walk the streets of Allanak or the alleys of the Labyrinth for hours and never meet a soul. The social stigma towards elves often takes on an almost OOC edge where other players will not only have their characters shun you (which they are expected to) but also refrain from trying to roleplay with you. In my experience playing a c-elf, it is rare that non-elves take the trouble to bother you and much more common that they ignore you unless you do something that literally forces a response.
QuoteCelves definately DO NOT have any sort of templar-like abilities within the rinth. The clanned elves have the same benifits any other clan has. Clanmembers tend to favor their clanmates over the intruders. Though as long-time players of the rinth know, even that is not always the case. Ever been beaten down by your own clan because you were in the wrong place in the wrong time?
The thing that Synthesis refers to is the fact that almost all NPCs of each respective side of the 'rinth are in the same clan and will all assist a player with the same clanning, making attacking such a player artificially dangerous as NPCs from potentially four adjacent rooms charge in to assist them. The problem is the same for west-side humanoids, and in fact it is possible for a character with the right clanning to get attacked by an NPC and see that same NPC's followers turn on their own leader and assist the PC. However, the elf-side NPCs tend to be much more densely packed and are more often hidden, leading to a potentially higher frequency of such mishaps.
Quote from: Bhagharva on June 07, 2009, 01:51:44 PM
City elves who are successful tend to stay out of taverns in the commoners quarter unless business dictates. There are exceptions, but honestly the real problem most people seem to have is a lack of direction when playing a Celf. As a former imm and longtime storyteller within the rinth I can attest that there have been several dynamic elves of all concepts that were great elves. When the players have a few others to play with in the rinth things are fine.. soon as things get sparse a vast majority get bored and head southside to hobknob with the socialites. Celf is not a role for everyone. Do not misconstrue and assume that I believe that Celves playing southside are playing badly, it's just that most seem to ignore the fact that the majority of elves are stinking pieces of rinth filth and people have a GOOD reason to be suspicious of them at ALL times.
See, this is part of the problem. I don't want to play a 'rinthi/thief pc. Even though in Allanak, there is probably no other way to play a c-elf.
If elves are just a ghettoized minority without any influence beyond criminal activity; it should say so in the documentation.
But I do want to say that I'm seeing some neat things happen with the new Tuluki c-elf tribe.
Bhag, don't get the wrong idea: all of my most utterly bad-ass 'rinthers have been city elves.
That being said, I think everything else I've said remains consistent with that.
Quote from: Bhagharva on June 07, 2009, 01:51:44 PM
Celves definately DO NOT have any sort of templar-like abilities within the rinth.
What, then, is the reason for closing rinthi tribes?
Quote
Elves as we know it will not exist in ArmII
Exactly. More reason to use the race to its full potential. City bound families of proud paranoiacs who don't understand property laws (and that is only a surface of the elven mindset) won't be there in arm2 (to my knowledge). Akai Sjir are a great thing for the north, and unless I'm mistaken it would take a lot less work to open an existing tribe than it took to create Akai from scratch. And, seeing that you said that they wouldn't be overpovered, why not?
I don't care about stats or not being able to ranger around. GIVE US THE TRIBES!!!! :peasant uprising:
Quote from: Good Gortok on June 07, 2009, 02:22:28 PM
The problem is that your proposed manner of playing an elf leads to a severe shortage of interaction opportunities for most players. 90% of roleplay in this game takes place in taverns or clan compounds. You can walk the streets of Allanak or the alleys of the Labyrinth for hours and never meet a soul. The social stigma towards elves often takes on an almost OOC edge where other players will not only have their characters shun you (which they are expected to) but also refrain from trying to roleplay with you. In my experience playing a c-elf, it is rare that non-elves take the trouble to bother you and much more common that they ignore you unless you do something that literally forces a response.
If you can't have fun playing a character that is hated, don't play one. There are plenty of places for c.elves to go socialize in a bar-type situation... southside is not one of those. Deal with it.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 08, 2009, 03:53:12 AM
If you can't have fun playing a character that is hated, don't play one. There are plenty of places for c.elves to go socialize in a bar-type situation... southside is not one of those. Deal with it.
Cuz that's really what he said.
Let me quote and bold something for you since you obviously missed it in your hurry to dump on another player and show off how tough you are:
Quote from: Good Gortok on June 07, 2009, 02:22:28 PM
other players will not only have their characters shun you (which they are expected to) but also refrain from trying to roleplay with you.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 08, 2009, 03:53:12 AM
Quote from: Good Gortok on June 07, 2009, 02:22:28 PM
The problem is that your proposed manner of playing an elf leads to a severe shortage of interaction opportunities for most players. 90% of roleplay in this game takes place in taverns or clan compounds. You can walk the streets of Allanak or the alleys of the Labyrinth for hours and never meet a soul. The social stigma towards elves often takes on an almost OOC edge where other players will not only have their characters shun you (which they are expected to) but also refrain from trying to roleplay with you. In my experience playing a c-elf, it is rare that non-elves take the trouble to bother you and much more common that they ignore you unless you do something that literally forces a response.
If you can't have fun playing a character that is hated, don't play one. There are plenty of places for c.elves to go socialize in a bar-type situation... southside is not one of those. Deal with it.
Nope.
C.elves are welcome in the commoner taverns.
There might be a dozen elves hanging out virtually in The Gaj or Red's at any given time. This has been my understanding since I've been playing. And until the imms tell me that elves are bounced out at the door, that's the way it's gonna be.
There is one tavern that's an exception. So if you don't like elves in your gith-eye soup, then eat it at The Trader's.
just throwing in my two cents on what still seems to be alive as a thread...
I think celves are fine. Armageddon isn't about balance anyways.
QuoteIf you can't have fun playing a character that is hated, don't play one. There are plenty of places for c.elves to go socialize in a bar-type situation... southside is not one of those. Deal with it.
Do you mean to imply that the entire city-elf sphere of roleplay - the second most populous race of Zalanthas - should be confined to the Labyrinth? That all those NPCs, vNPCs and otherwise described elven inhabitants of other areas of any given settlement somehow do not exist? Are you perhaps one of the players who refrain from roleplaying with elven characters because they do not fit into one of the moulds that suit the criteria from which you choose who qualifies to roleplay with you? I have to wonder.
QuoteArmageddon isn't about balance anyways.
And here we have the #1 excuse used to defend the innumerable problems that tarnish the quality, consistency or accessibility of various aspects of roleplay on Armageddon. It never fails to make it into any and every discussion that calls for a change of some kind. Whether the problem begins in the code, the documentation, the "balance" or another less tangible element of the game, in the end it tends to result in what can only be described as a lessening of the spirit of the game. In this case it is the blatantly obvious fact that something prevents most players from desiring to play city elves, evident in the fact that there are usually almost none of them. How is this not a problem that can and should be addressed? How is it fine? How can you possibly argue that it is somehow an intended and properly functioning trait of this game?
This thread makes me sad. City elves don't suck. Half of all my characters were c-elves. Fun! Agility also doesn't suck. Agility so doesn't suck. Three characters with exceptional/v.high agility, poor/average strength. All kicked ass from day 1 :> I like everything about c-elves. Please don't change them. Powerful enough even with current stats.
Quote from: Dracul on June 08, 2009, 10:32:02 AM
Armageddon isn't about balance anyways.
Really? You don't think that karma system that prevents half of the playerbase running around with defilers has anything to do with balance? 'Deal with it' comments have their place in certain discussions, this isn't one of them.
Quote from: audrey on June 08, 2009, 12:30:39 PM
This thread makes me sad. City elves don't suck. Half of all my characters were c-elves. Fun! Agility also doesn't suck. Agility so doesn't suck. Three characters with exceptional/v.high agility, poor/average strength. All kicked ass from day 1 :> I like everything about c-elves. Please don't change them. Powerful enough even with current stats.
We're not complaining about stats here.
The problem is that you are ALL defining interaction as social interaction.
People here complain about the lack of social interaction, not interaction with the environment.
You can interact with other PCs without it being social interaction.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 09, 2009, 02:05:00 AM
You can interact with other PCs without it being social interaction.
Griefing ftw.
One thing that discourages me from playing city elves is memories of how blantant the persecution has been. For a while, it seemed the Allanaki nobility had openly declared war on them. Even recently, I've seen a city elf emerge from the dormitory in the Gaj in his newbie gear and get hauled off almost immediately by the militia.
Maybe my viewpoint is askew, but I'm not willing to go through several short-lived characters in order to learn a new set of rules for survival right now.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on June 09, 2009, 05:09:20 AM
Even recently, I've seen a city elf emerge from the dormitory in the Gaj in his newbie gear and get hauled off almost immediately by the militia.
Duh. The Gaj is not a safe place for shady, low-life scum to hang out. Look at that silky, jade-embroidered merchant who's sitting at the vomit-stained bar the wrong way? The highly-esteemed AoD sergeant at the soggy, piss-dripping table will get his trusty private, who's sitting right next to you in his pristine armor drinking the delectable piss-for-alcohol, and teach you a lesson. And if a templar or noble peeks their head in because they have a craving for a snort of kank-flies, or have bought a new pair of silk pants that simply
must have some shit stains on them before they're fashionable, you're screwed.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 09, 2009, 05:33:12 AM
The Gaj is not a safe place for shady, low-life scum to hang out.
Seems so, if you're an elf. The poor fecker apparently couldn't even start a new character and get out the door before being taken to jail. That seems excessive to me.
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 08, 2009, 01:10:44 PM
We're not complaining about stats here.
I read the first post. Yes, people were complaining about stats.
I like the social interaction when playing elves. Sometimes, when I feel like the real world loves me too much, I log into my elf. And that makes me happier. Many of my elves were killed by militia by staying in-character, but I like that :) The elven mentality is fun. Yeah, they make enemies with everyone and die fast, and that's my niche in this game. I mean, I don't play dwarves because dwarves are always too focused on just one goal, but some people like having an excuse to focus on something. But I like elves, because they're arrogant, they love stealing things, they're close friends with other tribe members, and OOCly, there's always an excuse to start trouble, by scamming someone. They also have the best skills and stats for mischief.
So don't change them. My first char was an elf and I've always been very happy with them. If you don't like the way elves interact and can't find a way to interact without griefing, then don't play elves. It's not like someone is forcing you to play them.
Quote from: audrey on June 09, 2009, 09:55:10 AM
they're close friends with other tribe members
So, you aren't referring to c-elves in Allanak?
Sometimes city elf wisdom > city elf player's wisdom. Not always or necessarily even often. But sometimes.
We need more slick-talking Sand-Tonic salesmen. (And, of course, more credulous consumers.)
Quote from: audrey on June 09, 2009, 09:55:10 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 08, 2009, 01:10:44 PM
We're not complaining about stats here.
But I like elves, because they're arrogant, they love stealing things, they're close friends with other tribe members
Yeah. See the problem?
[/quote]
Many of my elves were killed by militia by staying in-character, but I like that :)
[/quote]
Same. Not militia though...But I've had good c-elf characters die even though I knew it was a trap/they were going to kill me whatever because it was IC to keep trying this scam. I don't mind.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on June 09, 2009, 10:07:45 AM
Sometimes city elf wisdom > city elf player's wisdom.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I'm not done.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Thank you for the laugh, Brytta.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on June 09, 2009, 05:09:20 AM
One thing that discourages me from playing city elves is memories of how blantant the persecution has been. For a while, it seemed the Allanaki nobility had openly declared war on them. Even recently, I've seen a city elf emerge from the dormitory in the Gaj in his newbie gear and get hauled off almost immediately by the militia.
Maybe my viewpoint is askew, but I'm not willing to go through several short-lived characters in order to learn a new set of rules for survival right now.
Yeah, you're right. And it bellies realism. What I think that players don't take into account is that your average elf is two or three notches below the average employed human on the social ladder. In essence, an elf is likely beneath your notice.
After all, it's not like the CEO of my real life company comes down from the penthouse to pick an argument with some janitors in the basement. I'd be seriously surprised if he could tell you how many janitors work for his company or what their names are.
Quote from: ibusoe on June 09, 2009, 11:50:10 PM
After all, it's not like the CEO of my real life company comes down from the penthouse to pick an argument with some janitors in the basement. I'd be seriously surprised if he could tell you how many janitors work for his company or what their names are.
CEO's don't think it's fun to harass their janitors. (Normally?)
Quote from: Salt Merchant on June 09, 2009, 06:10:23 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 09, 2009, 05:33:12 AM
The Gaj is not a safe place for shady, low-life scum to hang out.
Seems so, if you're an elf. The poor fecker apparently couldn't even start a new character and get out the door before being taken to jail. That seems excessive to me.
I'm not doubting the that Gaj has been infested with silks and gemmies.
But I am laughing at the idea of a newbie elf in his newbie suit getting hauled off my militia. That's perfect, fine, and the elf's player should be able to talk his way out of whatever punishment the templars have intended. If the player is just as new as his character, I'd suspect the law would pass out an indulgence on the character's behavior.
Quote from: number13 on June 10, 2009, 05:30:07 AM
Quote from: Salt Merchant on June 09, 2009, 06:10:23 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 09, 2009, 05:33:12 AM
The Gaj is not a safe place for shady, low-life scum to hang out.
Seems so, if you're an elf. The poor fecker apparently couldn't even start a new character and get out the door before being taken to jail. That seems excessive to me.
I'm not doubting the that Gaj has been infested with silks and gemmies.
But I am laughing at the idea of a newbie elf in his newbie suit getting hauled off my militia. That's perfect, fine, and the elf's player should be able to talk his way out of whatever punishment the templars have intended. If the player is just as new as his character, I'd suspect the law would pass out an indulgence on the character's behavior.
It's not perfect and not fine, and it borders on the OOC abuse. I militia feels bored and decides to harass someone, that's good, that's what they do. Most of the time, yeah, elf or a breed will be the object for boredom relief. Fine, understandable. But in this case, the player was subjected to the 'treatment' from the start, most likely forced to give away his starting coin, which gave him no choice but to try some desperate crime, this potentially shortening his life.
If he had been caught near someone yelling 'thief!', or seen near apartment building at night, fine, fuck him up with no evidence needed because he's a natural born scum and everybody knows that. But if they are going to fuck with elves at random, why pick a new a player and not some elf from the third of the Gaj's populace? Almost half of the city populace is elven, and one would think that militia don't stop to smack every single one of them. And you know why so many elves live in the city? Not because Highlord feels charitable, it's because they are fucking needed and fill the certain niches better than humans. Not only backstabby niches.
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 10, 2009, 06:07:42 AM
If he had been caught near someone yelling 'thief!', or seen near apartment building at night, fine, fuck him up with no evidence needed because he's a natural born scum and everybody knows that. But if they are going to fuck with elves at random, why pick a new a player and not some elf from the third of the Gaj's populace? Almost half of the city populace is elven, and one would think that militia don't stop to smack every single one of them. And you know why so many elves live in the city? Not because Highlord feels charitable, it's because they are fucking needed and fill the certain niches better than humans. Not only backstabby niches.
Like that happens often...
Quote from: Is Friday on June 10, 2009, 08:50:08 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 10, 2009, 06:07:42 AM
If he had been caught near someone yelling 'thief!', or seen near apartment building at night, fine, fuck him up with no evidence needed because he's a natural born scum and everybody knows that. But if they are going to fuck with elves at random, why pick a new a player and not some elf from the third of the Gaj's populace? Almost half of the city populace is elven, and one would think that militia don't stop to smack every single one of them. And you know why so many elves live in the city? Not because Highlord feels charitable, it's because they are fucking needed and fill the certain niches better than humans. Not only backstabby niches.
Like that happens often...
It's happened to me. Granted, I wasn't playing an elf.
But the IC response was pathetic.
Quote from: number13 on June 10, 2009, 05:30:07 AM
But I am laughing at the idea of a newbie elf in his newbie suit getting hauled off my militia. That's perfect, fine, and the elf's player should be able to talk his way out of whatever punishment the templars have intended. If the player is just as new as his character, I'd suspect the law would pass out an indulgence on the character's behavior.
It's actually not perfect and fine, and I speak as the former player of a militia Sergeant. Hauling any PC off to jail simply for existing does border on abuse, minimally, and may actually BE abuse of the role if the PC is stripped of coin or items (or is killed) as an aftereffect of the interaction. Now, harassing that PC in order to make his/her life miserable, or in order to see whether they will cough up a SMALL bribe (in the range of 20 to 50 coins, or a drink or other small item), or in order to provoke the PC to do something stupid which is a jailing offense, that really is OK.
Militia members do definitely get bored--there is a lot of downtime in the role, and an inability to make decisions for one's own PC or go anywhere interesting or do some fun things without authorization. However, boredom is never a justifiable reason for OOC abuse of other PCs.
This thread has got me all fired up to at least try a city elf in the future. If it's miserable, then it's miserable, but it sounds like an experience to have.
Quote from: Is Friday on June 10, 2009, 08:50:08 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 10, 2009, 06:07:42 AM
If he had been caught near someone yelling 'thief!', or seen near apartment building at night, fine, fuck him up with no evidence needed because he's a natural born scum and everybody knows that. But if they are going to fuck with elves at random, why pick a new a player and not some elf from the third of the Gaj's populace? Almost half of the city populace is elven, and one would think that militia don't stop to smack every single one of them. And you know why so many elves live in the city? Not because Highlord feels charitable, it's because they are fucking needed and fill the certain niches better than humans. Not only backstabby niches.
Like that happens often...
Did you mean to say: 'Like that doesn't happen often...'? If not, I don't get it.
I might have to make an elf for my next character too.
Just to see if I'm actually full of shit.
Quote from: Jingo on June 13, 2009, 09:36:03 PM
I might have to make an elf for my next character too.
Just to see if I'm actually full of shit.
You don't have to. I can tell you right now that you're correct.
Quote from: Eloran on June 13, 2009, 09:40:26 PM
Quote from: Jingo on June 13, 2009, 09:36:03 PM
I might have to make an elf for my next character too.
Just to see if I'm actually full of shit.
You don't have to. I can tell you right now that you're correct.
I'm also an Obamaman.
Then you're going to Hell?