Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => World Discussion => Topic started by: theebie on August 29, 2007, 04:54:11 AM

Title: Templars and fear
Post by: theebie on August 29, 2007, 04:54:11 AM
hi,

i'm not sure how fearfull templars are seen by the general population.
from what i remember when i (years ago) read some dark-sun books
they were that frightfull that everybody within sight fell down to their
knees, head to the ground, whenever a templar passed anywhere,
which is way more frightfull than they are in our game right now.

is there some official standing on this ?

regards, theebie
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Cegar on August 29, 2007, 05:01:24 AM
Yeah. You bow.

Or you lose your body parts.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Nile on August 29, 2007, 05:23:30 AM
I've had moments where a Templar entered and I got very nervous RL. They can be damn scary bastards when they decide to pick on your beloved char.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Folker on August 29, 2007, 05:26:42 AM
It would be impossible for a Templar to function if people did what you describe TOO much. If Templars were only seen in passing, then yeah sure, it could be that all Templars would ever see of commoners are their bent backs. But since Templars tend to actually have 'stations' where they are seen constantly, people cant just freeze in a permanent bow. So, it's fairly possible to 'avoid' bowing to Templars in areas where it's possible to simply not notice a Templar, like say ... A Bazaar. But if it's clear that you're awar of Templar's entrance, then yeah ... whole room bows.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: theebie on August 29, 2007, 05:50:38 AM
in a bazaar it'd be easy to recognize a templar.
he'd be the one standing in a quiet place where all others lie flat on the ground in a bow.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Folker on August 29, 2007, 06:06:38 AM
Quote from: "theebie"
in a bazaar it'd be easy to recognize a templar.
he'd be the one standing in a quiet place where all others lie flat on the ground in a bow.


Then it wouldnt be a bazaar, would it? Just some impromptu prayer ... place. Templars certainly enjoy dominion, but they like silkie cloth aswell, as if no one is trading them in, it'll be up to templars to weave them manually.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: theebie on August 29, 2007, 06:16:22 AM
Quote from: "Folker"
Quote from: "theebie"
in a bazaar it'd be easy to recognize a templar.
he'd be the one standing in a quiet place where all others lie flat on the ground in a bow.


Then it wouldnt be a bazaar, would it? Just some impromptu prayer ... place. Templars certainly enjoy dominion, but they like silkie cloth aswell, as if no one is trading them in, it'll be up to templars to weave them manually.


you're not getting my point, it'd be no bazaar until the templar would be gone again, until then it would be a lie-silent-and-look-on-the-floor-place.
and of course all shopkeepers would spend their whole concentration on
pleasing the templar, they'd not need to weave anything.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Lizzie on August 29, 2007, 07:10:27 AM
From what I understand, it really depends on the city and the rank of the templar. In the north, bowing to a templar is considered a slight against him. They expect good manners and respectful "gestures" (such as a bowed head). In the south, you bow to the templar if you see him come toward you, or look at you, or address your group. Otherwise you let him do his business and stay out of it. If it's a red-robe allanak templar, you'd probably stay bowed, and not rise again until you either get permission or the red-robe leaves. If it's a black-robe, you probably should run away. Very fast. And hope you never get caught.
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: brytta.leofa on August 29, 2007, 09:14:43 AM
Quote from: "theebie"
... they were that frightfull that everybody within sight fell down to their knees, head to the ground, whenever a templar passed anywhere, which is way more frightfull than they are in our game right now.

So, three templars walk into a bar in Allanak.  [Everything here refers to 'nak; I've never played up north.]

As the first enters, folks see his blue robe and his half-giant bodyguard.  Conversations are hushed for a moment; eyes turn to see what he's doing.  He walks over to a table at which someone is seated: the person he's looking at quickly rises and bows, as do his two companions; others in the tavern relax a little and return to what they were doing (picking their words a little more carefully, perhaps).

A moment later, a red-robed templar enters.  Heads turn again, and this time everyone's on their feet and bowing.  Again, he's looking for someone in particular, but no one really sits down or goes back to what they were doing until he leaves.  If he sits down at a table and shows signs of staying, people may sit back down, but will be very on their toes.

The third templar arrives, in a black robe.  Everyone prostrates themselves as you've described.  No one gets up unless ordered until he leaves...even if it's hours, probably.

My impression is that most blue robes are out in the city doing real work, and value efficiency (though never rudeness) to obsequiousness in a commoner.

Quote from: "Cegar"
Yeah. You bow.  Or you lose your body parts.

I think this is true (a) only in Allanak and (b) only if he/she is paying attention to you.  You do not have to bow to every blue-robed templar you pass in the street; you bow if you're spoken to, approached, or otherwise singled out.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Rairen on August 29, 2007, 09:44:35 AM
I can cover a (and I'm sure there's multiple, subtle interpretations) Tuluki perspective on things.

Templars are loved.  You don't bow to people you love.  In fact, you want to run up and hug them all the time, except for that (ew) commoner, physicial contact, you-are-not-worthy thing.  The best you can do is give them "Hey, buddy, how's things?" nods and make like they're (if slightly stand-offish) one of the gang, a la Cheers, where Norm is powerful, infallable, and sword/whip/whatever wielding.

In fact, why wouldn't you nod?  You couldn't be scared of them, could you?  Loyal citizens have nothing to fear; only the disloyal vanish from the streets.  What is it that you need forgiveness for, that you prostrate yourself and cower at the sight of them?  Or... are you grovelling like a southerner because you think these templars are as corrupt and vile as their southern counterparts?  Is this a veiled, mocking insult to the servants of His Light?

:wink:
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Tisiphone on August 29, 2007, 10:32:41 AM
Said from the perspective of a regular-joe, don't have anything against the establishment commoner:

The expression, "Tuluki dogs," comes to mind well.

That is, in Tuluk, you do love your templars. Like a dog loves its master. Also, you know that the templars love you, too. However, it would be a little awkward and irritating for them if you were to run over and fawn on them all of the time. (Just in the same way a dog can be trained to realize that you don't like being jumped all over and licked.) In fact, you love them because they are better than you, and know it, and they look out for you. However, there's a small part that doesn't want to soil them with your inferiority; so you do what they ask of you, gladly, but you don't bow, because that would show that you don't feel as close a connection as you do, and you don't leap out of your seat and run to their side like a best friend, because the relationship is 'master-servant' love.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 29, 2007, 10:53:50 AM
Quote from: "Rairen"
In fact, why wouldn't you nod?  You couldn't be scared of them, could you?  Loyal citizens have nothing to fear; only the disloyal vanish from the streets.  What is it that you need forgiveness for, that you prostrate yourself and cower at the sight of them?  Or... are you grovelling like a southerner because you think these templars are as corrupt and vile as their southern counterparts?  Is this a veiled, mocking insult to the servants of His Light?


This is fine for regular ol' Lirathan and Jihaen templars. But things are going to get much more respectful around a High Templar and up. And if you see the High Precentor (voice of the Sun King Himself), there will be prostrating. (Have seen it and done it in game.)
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Doppelganger on August 29, 2007, 12:45:21 PM
Showing submission to and assuming vulnerabile position before powerful figure is almost animal instinct. Wolves and other predators show their open neck or belly to the leader of their pack, people bow and grovel. Even if given Allanaki commoner didn't feel Templar's wrath on himself yet, he has witnessed it in action many times. That is why they leave dead bodies lying around, that is why they make executions openly, to show what is expected from them. In environment like that, bowing and groveling before Templars is not intelligent action, it's instinct of self-preservation rather than social etiquette.

Situation in Tuluk is different, but what Gimfalisette says happens indeed. Nature of these actions is different though. What is done out of fear in Allanak, happens on the wave of religious ecstasy in Tuluk. Like earthen religious fanatics go to extremes in presence of saints, prophets, holy relics, the very same way Tuluki commoners prostrate themselves before clergy of their living God. However, those few who are well aware what is hidden behind facade of universal love, might grovel for the same reason why it is usually being done in Allanak.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: jstorrie on August 29, 2007, 02:32:51 PM
Many Tulukis may act the way they do not because they do really love the Jihaens and Lirathans, they just want to not stick out. While the Jihaens are often too militarily disciplined to care about meddling with commoners, a Jihaen that takes an interest in you can be very intimidating–and the Lirathans, of course, can be absolutely horrifying.

This is all also very subject to how things with PCs turn out. There have been a few overtly cruel Jihaens since the Copper War event, but not many of them stuck around very long. The two most prominent Jihaens for the past few months have been more of the firm-yet-subtle types who inspire the classic Tuluki-style patriotism mentioned above. On the other side of the coin, I used to run into Lirathans in-game who scared the shit out of me, but there was a long string from the Copper War until just about a month ago or so where there seemed to be a new Lirathan every other week because they were, well, bumbling around and getting themselves killed and not coming off as ice-hearted evil geniuses at all.

I'd say it's more difficult to inspire PCs to react to your templar Tuluki-style than Allanaki style. Tuluki-style, you have to be cordial yet calculating and ruthless. In Allanak, the norm is just to be incredibly dangerous. They both inspire fear in different ways, I guess, but I know I would definitely find it easier to play a blue-robe than a mooninite.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: path on August 29, 2007, 03:28:55 PM
brytta.leofa said:
Quote
You do not have to bow to every blue-robed templar you pass in the street; you bow if you're spoken to, approached, or otherwise singled out.


Glory be! Might not have been able to say it better myself, that's for the Southie Templars, of course.

Edited to add:
Zalanthas is dark sun based, not dark sun. We have our own cultures, histories and differences. While you'll see racial and creature similarities, you'll find the differences to be vast indeed.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 29, 2007, 03:57:37 PM
I've played quite closely to well-done templars both north and south. (As well as to poorly-done templars in both locations.) The truth is, in both city-states, the emotional reaction to an individual templar from a PC could be:

Fear
Love
Hatred
Respect / Reverence
Disrespect
Trust
Distrust

My favorite templars are the ones who inspire a combination of fear, respect, and love all at the same time; and I have experienced this both north and south.

I'll also note that religious fervor isn't only the province of the north. There's plenty in the south, too; it just has a somewhat darker, more overtly brutal cast to it. Same goes for patriotism.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Larrath on August 29, 2007, 04:13:16 PM
I wanted to pitch in about Tuluk here.
Tuluk, for all of its pleasantness, is in truth more brutal than Allanak.  Many Tulukis might not be aware of the fact, but they certainly do know that the vast majority of crimes in Tuluk are punished by death.  People in Tuluk disappear left in right and without any explanation.
Every single time a Tuluki is looking for someone and can't find them, they're probably going to wonder if that person was silently executed.  Haven't seen your lover for two days?  Well, maybe they're dead already.  People don't discuss people who vanished, and often they don't even know why they vanished in the first place.
To me, it's extremely similar to the Ministry of Love in Orwell's 1984, except they don't let you out before you're shot in the back of the head.

Living in a city like Tuluk is living in constant, maddening paranoia.  Some Tulukis might react to this by becoming excessively patriotic, deciding that the Templarate is absolute justice.  Other Tulukis, especially those that have actually interacted with a Templar on more than one occasion, will see that they can also be corrupt on occasion.

In other words, while some Tulukis might revere the Templars, they usually fear them more than they love them; what if that Jihaen saw you just when a bug flew into your mouth and you made a face?  If they took affront to that, you'll probably disappear tomorrow without being able to explain it was an honest mistake.  What if you had a weird hunch or made a lucky guess at some point and you're suspected for being a witch or a psionicist?  Bam, dead.  What if a good friend of yours turns out to be an abomination and you're wrongly suspected of having helped them?  Bam, dead.

In Allanak, you can get away with a whipping, or paying a bribe, or maybe losing an eye or a limb, or even being thrown into the Arena (where you can shout some parting words or explain yourself briefly before the animal is released, and maybe even win your freedom).  In Tuluk, punishment is generally either enslavement, a fine or execution.


Now, about templars:
In Tuluk, it's considered rude to bow to a regular Templar because it's too similar to how things used to be when Tuluk was under Allanaki occupation.  Bowing to a Tuluki templar is, in a way, comparing them to Allanaki templars, and they don't like that.
When a very important Templar comes along, you bow or kneel to them because it's the single biggest honor of your entire, pitiful life.

In Allanak, you bow to a regular Templar.  However, because Allanak has a huge amount of blue-robed templars patrolling the streets, standing at corners and going about their business, you can get away with only bowing to templars that notice you or you have business with.  Otherwise you'd have to bow at least twenty times whenever you wanted to go from the Bard's Barrel to the Dragon Temple to buy some water, and that's simply not practical.  This isn't to say that templars aren't frightening -- to most regular people in a city-state, a templar can do anything, purely by whim.  If a blue-robed templar goes to your Bynner Sergeant or your indie ranger and decides that you're a slave now, you're a slave.  If they want you dead, you die.
When a red-robed templar comes around, everything stops completely for a few minutes and everyone bows.  Some people might kneel.  This is because, for all practical purposes, a red-robed templar can do ANYTHING they want, no matter what, and suffer no consequences whatsoever.  A red-robed templar can walk up to a regular (non-senior) noble and decide to banish them from the city because they annoyed him.  Provided this noble wasn't incredibly important, and most of them aren't, nothing will happen to the red-robe as a result.

Now, a black-robed templar... a black-robed templar is an evil, omnipotent and omniscient demigod with a temper and, as far as anyone knows, enough power to kill all life in the Known World in two seconds flat.  When a black-robe arrives, everyone kneels and stays kneeling until that black-robe is well, well out of sight.  Because if that black-robe thinks, even for half a second, that you don't respect them quite enough, you'll die instantly.


Templars are plenty scary in Zalanthas.  The reason it's easy to forget this fact is that many things aren't OOCly allowed -- a PC templar can't walk around enslaving, maiming or throwing people into the Arena at random because players will complain about it, and this is ultimately a game designed to be fun for everyone.  What more people need to realize, perhaps, is that these restrictions don't actually exist in the game world, but are rather an OOC courtesy of sorts.  ICly, a templar is fully capable of taking you out of a tavern and brutally murder you simply because they didn't like the hat you were wearing.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: manonfire on August 29, 2007, 04:29:38 PM
A ton of useful information here. Once the thread has reached a logical conclusion, I'd love to see it archived.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 29, 2007, 04:40:12 PM
Quote from: "path"
brytta.leofa said:
Quote
You do not have to bow to every blue-robed templar you pass in the street; you bow if you're spoken to, approached, or otherwise singled out.


Glory be! Might not have been able to say it better myself, that's for the Southie Templars, of course.


Sweet Tek, yes.  This needs to be re-quoted on every page of this thread.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: brytta.leofa on August 29, 2007, 05:15:14 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
I'll also note that religious fervor isn't only the province of the north. There's plenty in the south, too; it just has a somewhat darker, more overtly brutal cast to it. Same goes for patriotism.

Someone once posted something to the following effect: 'nakkis live in the middle of a harsh, nasty desert, and they love the templarate for being far, far more dangerous than the nasties outside the walls.  Their templars may be brutal, corrupt, and generally terrifying, but they also regularly put their own lives on the line for the city.

(I'd love to know how many blue robe PCs get stored vs. killed...my guess is not many.  Of course PCs tend to lead more dangerous lives than their NPC relatives.)
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: James de Monet on August 30, 2007, 01:25:26 AM
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
Quote from: "path"
brytta.leofa said:
Quote
You do not have to bow to every blue-robed templar you pass in the street; you bow if you're spoken to, approached, or otherwise singled out.


Glory be! Might not have been able to say it better myself, that's for the Southie Templars, of course.


Sweet Tek, yes.  This needs to be re-quoted on every page of this thread.


I would like to add that I think the factor of setting also plays into this equation.  If you are someplace where the Templar clearly "belongs" (is a natural sight) you will probably be less likely to respond to their presence.  If a Templar walked into the Ministry while you were in it, you probably wouldn't bow at all unless they fully tapped you on the shoulder, because they clearly are there for a reason other than you.  In the Trader's, you might be likely to bow if they looked at you, but not simply at their entrance.  In the Barrel, you would probably be more aware of them, wondering why they were there, ready to bow at the slightest provocation.  In the Gaj, people would likely stop what they were doing, even if a blue robe just walked in.  And in the 'rinth, there would almost certainly be scattering (if not something more drastic).  It's a matter of contrast.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Tisiphone on August 30, 2007, 10:02:19 AM
While we're on the subject of templars, is there any actual known sharable information as to how a blue robe becomes a red robe becomes a black robe? Or, if that question isn't applicable, how the distinction is made in the Templarate orders? (Is it hereditary? If your momma was a red-robe, and didn't kill you while you were growing up, do you become one?) Do templars just yank people off of the street/out of the Arm and throw them into 'templar training'?

Almost more importantly, what are the background rumours?[/b]
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 30, 2007, 10:14:29 AM
Templar robes in Allanak aren't quite orders, they're ranks.  You get promoted from blue to red, and maybe to black someday.  Usually I suppose a blue gets promoted to red after a long, distinguished career and winning several (relatively) major battles.

Not sure where whites-robes and brown-robes fit in.  They might be below blue, apprentice positions for younger templars, or just off to the side for retired blues and other templars who aren't fit for battle one way or another.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: rufus on August 30, 2007, 11:34:49 AM
...brown robes?
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Tarx on August 30, 2007, 11:54:07 AM
...brown-nose templars?
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: spawnloser on August 30, 2007, 12:17:58 PM
It is little secret that Templars are promoted through the ranks as Moe said.  It has happened to PC templars in the past.  None have made black, that I am aware of, but I know that red is attainable.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Sanvean on August 30, 2007, 12:18:10 PM
I'd like to edit some of this into this doc: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/authority.html since I was reminded of its existence last night while doing some doc clean-up.  Anything else that should go into it?
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 30, 2007, 12:40:10 PM
Quote from: "rufus"
...brown robes?


I think brown robe is a laboring/administrative rank in the templarate.  Like, isn't the templar who works the fountain a brown robe?  Probably clerks in some of the ministry offices are brown-robe too.

White robe is the religious rank, leading devotions and writing propaganda I suppose.

I may have the two mixed up in my head, though.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: rufus on August 30, 2007, 01:06:09 PM
I've never heard of a brown robe templar before though.  Huh.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Larrath on August 30, 2007, 01:06:38 PM
Brown-robed templars don't exist in either city-state, to the best of my knowledge.
If they do exist, they'd have to be a super-secretive sect that's practically never visible and/or leaves the Templar's Quarter.

They probably don't exist, though.


Many administrative duties are taken care of by Blue Robes (mine offices, stables, etc), whereas the White Robes administer the water-selling fountain and probably also, virtually, take care of the Highlord's Temples (not the gemmer ones, though), possibly Morning Devotions, and in general do stuff to make the public more reverent of Tektolnes.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: rufus on August 30, 2007, 01:32:46 PM
Brown robes = ...Bynners?
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 30, 2007, 01:33:26 PM
I could swear I've seen a brown-robe before... I'll have to check my logs when I get home.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Southie on August 30, 2007, 02:14:16 PM
Maybe you just saw a templar who had recently completed a sewer patrol.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 30, 2007, 02:16:33 PM
Maybe.  Or maybe someone was messing with me back when I was a newbie.  Or maybe it was a dream.  Or maybe it's a conspiracy.

Or maybe I'm just going crazy.

No, can't be.  Must be a conspiracy.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Maybe42or54 on August 30, 2007, 03:18:12 PM
It was probably me and some guys messing with you when you were a newbie.

I remember doing that to a couple people.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 30, 2007, 03:39:25 PM
Things I would add about templars and authority in general, in ARM, for newbies to be aware of:

Things Not To Do When Dealing with Authority Figures

Resist Questioning or Arrest: If an authority figure wants to stop you and ask you questions, the smart thing to do is to answer them openly and honestly. Ditto with putting your hood down; just do it, if asked/ordered. Protesting being asked questions, or being hesitant, makes you look guilty.

Run: Almost always, PCs that run are immediately caught. If not caught immediately, they are pretty much always caught later. Running will lead to much more severe consequences when you are caught.

Protest Your Innocence: The authority figure will not believe your protest. You will, rather, seem stupid and insubordinate and probably guilty.

Attack: Duh. If you attack an authority figure, it's pretty much guaranteed you're going to wind up dead.

Cop An Attitude: Badmouthing, cursing, spitting at, refusing to talk, laughing at, sneering, and all kinds of bad attitude will probably end up in things being really hard on your character.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 30, 2007, 03:58:31 PM
I don't necessarily think it's out of character to do some of those things, though.  But yeah, most people would be aware of the consequences those actions will likely bring.

Also, something that would be IC for people to do but they don't do often enough is bribe.  Doesn't matter whether or not you're innocent or guilty, you should always try to bribe.  It doesn't (shouldn't) make you look more guilty to do so.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Cavaticus on August 30, 2007, 04:06:49 PM
Someone once posted a great little example of how your character should feel around templars. It went like this:

Imagine that you're visiting a war-torn third-world country (for whatever reason). You're sitting in a little bar in the middle of nowhere when a huge man armed with an M-60 bursts on in, flanked by a few cronies. You happen to know from rumors and such that this guy (let's call him Bob) is the right-hand man of whoever happens to be in charge of things here.

Bob strides through the room and bumps into somebody who didn't get out of the way fast enough. And because Bob is annoyed now, he levels his M-60 and sprays chunks of the poor dude all over the room.

Nobody says anything, because why would they? Bob basically runs the show and can do whatever he wants. Bob walks up to the bar and looks down at you. He still looks irritated.

--

Imagine how you'd feel right at that point. Right there with your death staring you in the face. Unless your character is either insane or for whatever reason in REALLY good with the templarate, that's probably how he should feel whenever he's interacting with a templar.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Nao on August 30, 2007, 04:07:10 PM
Running makes sense when you know that you'd probably get killed anyway. A small chance is better than no chance at all.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: brytta.leofa on August 30, 2007, 04:40:56 PM
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
Also, something that would be IC for people to do but they don't do often enough is bribe.  Doesn't matter whether or not you're innocent or guilty, you should always try to bribe.  It doesn't (shouldn't) make you look more guilty to do so.

Lord Templar, what you say is true--I've made a terrible mistake.
Lord Templar, surely the Highlord knows the depth of my loyalty still, even though I am weak and foolish and have greatly inconvenienced you.
Lord Templar, perhaps by some service I can redeem myself in part.
Lord Templar, I beg you accept this in token of my gratitude for your justice.
 :roll:
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 30, 2007, 05:03:14 PM
...and the templar pockets the coin and strolls off?  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Mr.B on August 30, 2007, 06:10:14 PM
Hi. Southern Templars, which are generally modeled after the terrifying Dark Sun Templars do have the power to brutally kill, maim, or torture people at a whim. Just because many players in these roles don't have the inclination (or balls) to be cruel and upstanding paragons of Allanaki "Law" (used very loosely here, they ARE the freaking law.) doesn't mean that some templars should be less feared then others, because they can all do pretty much whatever the hell they want. In my opinion the correct course of action is often determined by the Templar being dealt with, if your dealing with a Templar who is a gentle soul compared to a bloodthirsty, overbearing hard-ass of a Templar, your going to react differently to them, and the rules of engagement change. Blue, Red or Black robes are sort of like codes of how much actual power among the -templarate- they wield. Where Blues are enough to ruin your life for fun and profit. Northern Templars are a different story, they are similar to Saddam Hussein's regime (but no bowing plz) in a rich and prosperous Iraq, everyone is to love and serve them, and they in turn protect and govern the people of the land, but a word of dissent is enough for them to make you disappear and do horrible things to your nether regions.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Zhaira on August 30, 2007, 07:15:29 PM
White robed templars are in charge of religious duties.  They administer the water at the Temple of the Dragon, and, as someone said above, do things related to increasing worship of the Highlord.

Brown robed templars -- we have some tribal lore that there are templars in brown/yellow robes who are stationed in the farms outside of Allanak.  I think this *may* be an artifact that never really got cleared up from Times Past, but is still in play because it very rarely comes up.  They may be in charge of overseeing a farm or some such (as the farm's survival, though outside the walls, is vital to Allanak's success).
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Pale Horse on August 30, 2007, 07:23:29 PM
Quote from: "Zhaira"
White robed templars are in charge of religious duties.  They administer the water at the Temple of the Dragon, and, as someone said above, do things related to increasing worship of the Highlord.


I've always wanted to see a white-robe PC...
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: spawnloser on August 30, 2007, 09:58:30 PM
Quote from: "Pale Horse"
I've always wanted to see a white-robe PC...
Not going to happen, if I understand them correctly.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 30, 2007, 11:08:03 PM
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
I don't necessarily think it's out of character to do some of those things, though.  But yeah, most people would be aware of the consequences those actions will likely bring.


It might not be out of character for someone to do...who knows the MUD reasonably well and their character's place in the game world.

But the people doing the openly-defying-authority thing are usually totally new to ARM and have no clue that what they're doing will lead to the death of their character if they're not careful. I think the starting docs should be REALLY clear about this stuff.

Quote from: "Nao"
Running makes sense when you know that you'd probably get killed anyway. A small chance is better than no chance at all.


I've seen plenty of situations where characters ran when they had no need to run; when running ended in their deaths, while NOT running probably would have turned out with their character alive.

Authority figures in both cities, from what I've seen, really want to work with PCs on an OOC level. They aren't mostly totally into killing and plundering PCs (those who are always seem to be gone really quickly). It's just far more beneficial to PCs overall to recommend begging, prostrating, apologizing, and bribing as a way to deal with situations versus running.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Rhyden on August 30, 2007, 11:30:03 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
I've seen plenty of situations where characters ran when they had no need to run; when running ended in their deaths, while NOT running probably would have turned out with their character alive.


And I've seen plenty of situations where characters didn't run but if they had, they would have had a much better chance at living. Many including my own character.  :twisted: I think running is perfectly acceptable, but like Gim said, it's very likely you'll get caught.

If people didn't defy the templars, they'd have less conflict to deal with. If it's realistic, cause mahem for the templars. When I played a Templar, some of the most fun plots revolved around hunting down or dealing with trouble makers.

Personally, I -hate- it when everyone in the room bows to a templar the moment they enter the room unless they're significantly higher ranked than most templars.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: brytta.leofa on August 30, 2007, 11:41:09 PM
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
...and the templar pockets the coin and strolls off?  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

I'm just trying to picture how a bribery scenario would work.  "Lord Templar, can I pay my fine now?"
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Tisiphone on August 31, 2007, 12:02:17 AM
Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
...and the templar pockets the coin and strolls off?  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

I'm just trying to picture how a bribery scenario would work.  "Lord Templar, can I pay my fine now?"


The bribery usually works something like this.

Your PC is somewhere uncomfortable, like a jail cell, or the middle of the street, or sitting in a chair at the tavern. (Note: when you're in trouble with a templar in the room, anywhere is uncomfortable.)

Templar makes it clear that he or she really doesn't care to deal with you right now, because your little problems are either
a) Boring
b) Stupid
c) Unimportant
d) Unlikely to lead to repeat offenses
e) Above his or her pay grade

or some confluence of the above. Then your character obsequeiously thanks the templar for deigning to notice his or her existence, and furthermore for showing him or her the true path, and offers up the three large he or she happens to have in his or her backpack at the time, with the obvious understanding that such a gift is a mere pittance to the templar, more a token of your character's repentance, but so unfortunately all he or she has at the moment, since he or she is a poor, unworthy commoner.

It usually works, unless option e is in play, at which point you lose your money, might get set 'free', usually get tracked down within a couple of days/hours, and end up with some extremely interesting roleplay.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 31, 2007, 12:35:15 AM
Quote from: "Rhyden"
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
I've seen plenty of situations where characters ran when they had no need to run; when running ended in their deaths, while NOT running probably would have turned out with their character alive.


And I've seen plenty of situations where characters didn't run but if they had, they would have had a much better chance at living. Many including my own character.  :twisted: I think running is perfectly acceptable, but like Gim said, it's very likely you'll get caught.

If people didn't defy the templars, they'd have less conflict to deal with. If it's realistic, cause mahem for the templars. When I played a Templar, some of the most fun plots revolved around hunting down or dealing with trouble makers.

Personally, I -hate- it when everyone in the room bows to a templar the moment they enter the room unless they're significantly higher ranked than most templars.


OK, my point is: YOU ARE NOT A NOOB. You -know- what will happen if you do or don't run, or what the possibilities are. Noobs do not know this, and often think that authorities will be "nice" to them, or that they really can get away by running. That's all I'm trying to say: Noobs could use some specific "this is a really bad idea to do" kind of instruction.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 31, 2007, 01:02:38 AM
Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
...and the templar pockets the coin and strolls off?  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

I'm just trying to picture how a bribery scenario would work.  "Lord Templar, can I pay my fine now?"


It's Allanak.  Just flat out ask "how much is this gonna cost me, Lord Templar?" or if you have a good guess, pull out the coin and offer them.  No need to do it subtly or out of sight.  It's just like any other business transaction, though haggling is going to be difficult if there's a lot of evidence against you.

This goes double for soldiers, since they're more likely to be the ones arresting and interrogating you for lesser crimes.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: spawnloser on August 31, 2007, 07:17:54 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
That's all I'm trying to say: Noobs could use some specific "this is a really bad idea to do" kind of instruction.
I agree with this.  The documentation should be telling people what the general way things go is.  In general, it is a bad idea to spit, call names, run from, etc.  It is a good idea to make like your life is in the Templar's hand, so that is what should go into the documentation with the clause that this is the general way things are... not the way things are 100% of the time.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: naatok on September 05, 2007, 12:40:04 PM
In Allanak, bribery will get you everywhere....
 
Unfortunately 'dead' can be...and often is...included in that location.
 
 :twisted:
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Bebop on September 05, 2007, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: "naatok"
In Allanak, bribery will get you everywhere....
 
Unfortunately 'dead' can be...and often is...included in that location.
 
 :twisted:


Many people truly do underestimate the power of BRIBERY.

It's like what cheese does to you non-vegans.

Behold the power of bribes.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: a strange shadow on September 05, 2007, 05:06:06 PM
There is little that a smile and the right amount of money can't accomplish.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Cale_Knight on September 05, 2007, 09:55:27 PM
Just to reiterate what's already been said:

In nine cases out of ten, the player of the templar or soldier does not want to kill you.

Roleplay it out. Bribe. Beg. Plead. Barter. You might be surprised.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: SpyGuy on September 05, 2007, 11:24:48 PM
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
...and the templar pockets the coin and strolls off?  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

I'm just trying to picture how a bribery scenario would work.  "Lord Templar, can I pay my fine now?"


It's Allanak.  Just flat out ask "how much is this gonna cost me, Lord Templar?" or if you have a good guess, pull out the coin and offer them.  No need to do it subtly or out of sight.  It's just like any other business transaction, though haggling is going to be difficult if there's a lot of evidence against you.

This goes double for soldiers, since they're more likely to be the ones arresting and interrogating you for lesser crimes.


I'd disagree with this slightly.  It of course depends on what character you're playing but using a little more tact than bluntly asking how much goes a long way.  The last thing you want to do in that situation is insult a templar by making them look like a common merchant doing a simple business transaction.  I usually have more luck when licking their boots for a few minutes then making promises to do whatever is in my power to appease them (ie. how much do you want or what do you want me to do).  Also not offering money straight up can lead to interesting RP when the templar instead decides to ask for services instead of cash.  Treating templars like they're god usually works, and since they're Tek's representatives...yeah.

Alsoplayers should be sensitive to where they are and who is around when they offer/give a bribe.  In private is the time to offer a bribe (ie. Here's 2000 sid, now can we talk about my problem...) because the templar may or may not want people to know who is bribing them.  A smart templar should be able to get plenty of bribes from both Oash and Borsail but he'd be wise to keep the extent of eaches influence over him secret from the other.  This is likewise the case when you're caught being naughty by a templar and others are in the room.  Templar X may have no problems with your noble smoking spice but if stuck up noble Z is throwing a hissy fit about it it's usually wise to let Templar X first take you aside and then pay them off rather than to do it infront of noble Z.

But that's how I handle the bribery game.  In many ways it's best to bribe before you get in trouble rather than after.  But few PCs have the sort of coin and influence to do that easily.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: staggerlee on November 15, 2007, 02:59:00 PM
Quote

Few people understand the psychology of dealing with a Templar. A normal 'rinther will panic and immediately bow. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the Templar. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Southie on November 15, 2007, 03:02:53 PM
... and then kick your ass twice as hard.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on November 15, 2007, 03:12:04 PM
Yeah, sorry, but if I'm playing a 'rinthi that has some reason to RP with a templar, then my character is gonna bow. Rinthis aren't stupid; they know about authority structures, they know about showing respect, they know about power. (Of course, if I'm playing a 'rinthi, my character will first try to AVOID having anything to do with templars.)

And arousing contempt? The templar already loathes your existence if you're a 'rinthi, and you know that. Bowing isn't going to make that worse.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Troicha on November 15, 2007, 03:53:06 PM
'rinthis get, from templars, generally one of two things. There are factors which can make this different, but in general, here they are.

-nonrecognition

-recognition

In nearly all cases, the first is far more likely to be good for the 'rinthi.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: LoD on November 15, 2007, 04:43:33 PM
It's entirely possible that common characters at every level would be lumped into the same general category by most templars.  When you serve as the eyes, ears, and executioner's ax of whatever God-King you happen to worship, talking to a northsider over a southsider might be like choosing to hold a rat or a squirrel.  Yeah, one has a cuter outfit -- but they're still both rodents that you'd rather not touch.

Most any character that does not have a direct link, normally a shared family name, to a powerful political organization, would likely express the same level of fear and respect to the templars and expect little difference in the way they are treated.

-LoD
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2007, 05:07:25 PM
For your amusement and critique:
- Blue Robed Templar = level 10.
- Low-level noble = level 9.  They're cousins/friends/etc., but they'd best not get in a templar's way.
- Senior family in the great merchant houses = level 14.  No one would ever say it out loud, but a solitary blue robe who kills one of those folks will get stomped.
- Junior family = level 5.  Their only power is in their family's ability to hold a grudge.  High-ranking house militia officers sit about here, as well.
- Militia officers, gemmed with good reputations = level 4.  Useful but replaceable.
- Low-ranking House-employed commoners = level 2.  Smackable, but some paperwork involved.
- Average southside commoners = level 1.
- Average (unaffiliated) northside commoners = level 0.  Nobody cares.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on November 15, 2007, 06:01:28 PM
Well. No, not really.

Starting point for social standing in Allanak is the social rankings table (http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html). Now, it's got some notable errors / omissions on it and in its surrounding documentation:
 :arrow: The noble house rankings are wrong.
 :arrow: There is no "militia commander" position for commoners, and a templar "militia commander" is a blue robe, thus ranked with templars.
 :arrow: The positions of Sergeant and Corporal are backwards.
 :arrow: Gemmers are not on there specifically, though most probably fall in the "slave of the templarate" rank. Not sure how the CAM ranks would fit in, but I'd guess that the highest-ranked mage is no higher in status than a militia captain.

But taking those errors in stride, the table is still fairly correct and usable for a starter.

Then you add in stuff like:
 :arrow: Their boss' status. Being the aide of a senior noble or red robe templar > being the aide of a blue robe templar > being the aide of a senior merchant.
 :arrow: Their significant relationships with other people, and the status of those other people. Example: Openly having a sexual relationship with a breed or elf or 'gicker, if you're human normal, will lower your status. Openly employing a breed or elf, same thing. Openly employing a gemmer for anything but magick (such as having a gemmer aide, unless maybe you're an Oash noble), same thing. However, hooking up with a well-respected senior merchant of a GMH? Good for status. Being a templar's concubine? Good for status.
 :arrow: Stuff they've done, great deeds, stories told about the person, reputation in general, are they perceived as competent/incompetent, etc.
 :arrow: Personal wealth.
 :arrow: Personal factors: Good looks, charisma, attention to fashion, sense of humor, abilities and talents, etc.

All of the above plays into actual status. A 'rinthi could conceivably be higher status than your average 'nakki commoner. A noble who bumbles may have less status, IN PRACTICE, than a commoner who is savvy and competent.

You have to remember that there is public status, and there is also private status. Public status rules the public displays that are made; private status is more what ultimately rules the happenings between characters and in plots.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2007, 06:24:44 PM
Well, the major discrepancy I see in mine is that I'm listing senior merchants higher than blue robes...and I'm still inclined to think that I'm right on that count.  There are presumably only 6-8 Kadian "Senior Merchant (6)"-es controlling the flow of luxury goods in the Known World, but there are scores of blue robed templars.  

The public status vs. private power thing is certainly crucial.  I would expect that the status of militia officers and merchants tends to lag their actual power, while noble house employees would have less freedom to exercise power than their status might imply.  Affiliated 'rinthis may have considerable power, but no social status.

But heck, I'm no expert.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on November 15, 2007, 06:25:10 PM
Just to specifically address some points:

Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
- Low-level noble = level 9.  They're cousins/friends/etc., but they'd best not get in a templar's way.


This completely depends on the relative statuses of the noble and the templar.

Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
- Senior family in the great merchant houses = level 14.  No one would ever say it out loud, but a solitary blue robe who kills one of those folks will get stomped.


Again...it depends. The thing about a blue robe killing -anyone- "important" is: Would you really be likely to hear about it, if it happened?

Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
- Junior family = level 5.  Their only power is in their family's ability to hold a grudge.  High-ranking house militia officers sit about here, as well.


Officers of the militia and noble house guard officers are well above the status held by junior merchant family members. I mean, think about it...junior merchant family are characters who have JUST been created, for the most part. They have no power within their family at all and haven't done squat yet. (Despite the large quantity of junior family member PCs who try to pull the "I'll have my House do bad things to your organization!" power trip--it doesn't really work that way.) Whereas PCs who are officers in the militia or a noble house have undoubtedly got quite a bit of longevity behind them, and trust from their superiors.

Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
- Militia officers, gemmed with good reputations = level 4.  Useful but replaceable.


Militia officers = Sergeant and above. [Edited to take out a piece of evidence for my point here which may have been too IC.] Maybe in the really, really grand scheme of VNPCs they're considered "replaceable," but in the case of PCs this is pretty unlikely to be true. Gemmed with "good reputations"...depends on what you mean. A codedly powerful gemmed may be coddled by the templarate or an Oashi employer, but that's not the same thing as having high status. Status implies actually having political influence, and that doesn't ever come from coded power.

Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
- Low-ranking House-employed commoners = level 2.  Smackable, but some paperwork involved.


Smackable by who, templars? Soldiers? Again...it depends on so many factors. It's all political.

The thing about politics that makes this arena of the game fun, interesting, and difficult is that it's very complex and quite changeable.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Troicha on November 15, 2007, 06:30:30 PM
Gimf, be careful before you start bringing in too much IC knowledge.

Not that you are, just yet, I don't think. You're getting close, though, even without giving out specifics.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Fathi on November 15, 2007, 07:02:37 PM
Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
There are presumably only 6-8 Kadian "Senior Merchant (6)"-es controlling the flow of luxury goods in the Known World, but there are scores of blue robed templars.


This is true, and I bet the respective Merchant House would come down HARD on a blue robe that openly killed an individual of that rank if it wasn't for a good reason.

If, for example, a senior merchant in Kadius was discovered to be spying on Allanak and feeding information to Tuluk during a time of war, especially if the information aided the victory of the enemy?

Sure, Kadius would take measures to cover it up from the public eye, but if that sort of thing got out as general knowledge among the people whose opinions matter, I don't think the templar that executed them would have to worry about retribution from Kadius' end or his own.

From my experience with them, the Merchant Houses' internal power structures seem to be very much "you reap what you sow," because even if you're only one of six high-ranking family members, if you're caught spying for the other team, is it worth it for Kadius to sacrifice their neutrality for you?
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Jherlen on November 15, 2007, 07:27:25 PM
Often times, in practice, it is the PCs with longevity and seniority who will win out.

If the freshly-apped templar tries to go and kill the noble or the merchant family member who's been around for a year, or to a lesser extent kill employees of those people, he's going to run into some friction. No matter what springboard you start from the people who jumped first have had a longer time to gain altitude. (Or fall, too.)

The social rankings table is more of a "who defers to who in public" guideline than a hard and fast "this guy is more powerful than that guy" chart. You could conceivably have gemmed characters or junior merchants or junior nobles of a mid-tier house wielding more power than a blue robe, in practice, if the commoner characters were smart and the blue robe was dumb. All the table says is who has to bow to who.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: staggerlee on November 15, 2007, 07:42:34 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
Yeah, sorry, but if I'm playing a 'rinthi that has some reason to RP with a templar, then my character is gonna bow. Rinthis aren't stupid; they know about authority structures, they know about showing respect, they know about power. (Of course, if I'm playing a 'rinthi, my character will first try to AVOID having anything to do with templars.)

And arousing contempt? The templar already loathes your existence if you're a 'rinthi, and you know that. Bowing isn't going to make that worse.


Now that I've thoroughly reinvigorated this thread...

I would just like to say... that was a thinly veiled Hunter S Thompson quote, I don't think I'd advocate following his lead in real life, so it's not necessarily advisable in the game either.  It's got nothing to do with my ic or ooc feelings.

Isn't that embarrassing.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Troicha on November 15, 2007, 10:34:26 PM
Quote from: "staggerlee"
Now that I've thoroughly reinvigorated this thread...

I would just like to say... that was a thinly veiled Hunter S Thompson quote, I don't think I'd advocate following his lead in real life, so it's not necessarily advisable in the game either.  It's got nothing to do with my ic or ooc feelings.

Isn't that embarrassing.


Damnit, why'd you have to go spoil the fun?
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Agent_137 on November 16, 2007, 02:23:45 AM
Quote from: "brytta.leofa"
For your amusement and critique:
- Blue Robed Templar = level 10.
- Low-level noble = level 9.  They're cousins/friends/etc., but they'd best not get in a templar's way.
- Senior family in the great merchant houses = level 14.  No one would ever say it out loud, but a solitary blue robe who kills one of those folks will get stomped.
- Junior family = level 5.  Their only power is in their family's ability to hold a grudge.  High-ranking house militia officers sit about here, as well.
- Militia officers, gemmed with good reputations = level 4.  Useful but replaceable.
- Low-ranking House-employed commoners = level 2.  Smackable, but some paperwork involved.
- Average southside commoners = level 1.
- Average (unaffiliated) northside commoners = level 0.  Nobody cares.


Don't we have an official table for this?
Sorta.
http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

in short, socially:
on average, a blue robe is = noble family member = merchant house head.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Belenos on November 16, 2007, 12:08:35 PM
I would second, please be cautious in that you do not disseminate not commonly known information.


That being said, looking at a ranking table is one thing, reality is often another.  In a world where corruption and assasinations rule, who is 'really' more powerful is somewhat subjective.  Don't get seduced by doing it by the numbers, you'll find the outcome to not be in your favor.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on November 16, 2007, 12:54:01 PM
OK. I edited to take out the thing I think you guys were talking about.

Kind of a side point about politics: Although there's a different "ranking table" for Tuluk, the political similarities are significant. I'd strongly suggest anyone interested in politics in either city-state, or in the game in general, find marko's posts about politics and read read read.

In both city-states, it's way more complicated than a ranking table implies.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Goldberry on November 16, 2007, 10:22:23 PM
Some of these suggestions about RPing extensive submission to any templar in a room your character passes through...wow, that's so impractical it's silly.  "Bow or die!"  "The Bazaar would shut down until his hand was waved dismissively!"    :?

Makes me wonder how many of those people posting are playing templars.    :wink:
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Malken on November 16, 2007, 10:29:32 PM
Considering that there's Templars NPCs all over the place, stopping to bow to every Templars you pass by is silly.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Briarfox on November 17, 2007, 02:38:17 AM
Also consider that in a crowded Bazaar or along a traffic-heavy intersection between busy areas, you probably shouldn't be able to see every Templar or Noble, npc or pc.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 17, 2007, 05:45:40 AM
Truthfully, there's no need to bow to any Blue Robe Templar or Any Noble unless they specifically address you or in some other way interject themselves into your immediate life.

Examples of the proper time to bow to a noble or bluerobe are:[/u]
 :arrow: The Templar/Noble walks up to you, or you walk up to them.
 :arrow: The Templar/Noble walks up to your friend, whom you're talking to, or you walk up to their friend.
 :arrow: The Templar/Noble directly speaks to you from across the room/street or you talk to them from across the room/street.
 :arrow: The Templar/Noble in some way draws your undivided attention, or, you draw theirs.

Don't worry about Red Robes. You'll probably never meet a Red Robe. But if you do, bow your ass off if he so much as looks at you in a manner that your character would notice. If you look at him, bow, fast.

With High Nobles, you won't know they are any diffferent from a normal Noble until you are informed.

Nobles and Blues expect respect, but we don't need you peons to stop working every time we come around. Shit.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Salt Merchant on November 17, 2007, 07:44:25 AM
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"
Nobles and Blues expect respect, but we don't need you peons to stop working every time we come around. Shit.


We? Hahahahahaha.... sounds like you're getting into your role there. Maybe a bit too much? But then, I'm only a peon.   :D
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Lizzie on November 17, 2007, 08:59:01 AM
I would add one to 7Deadly's list:
s: if the noble or templar looks at you. With the exception...
s.1: If your character isn't facing the templar/noble and would not have seen him, you should toss out an emote so the player of that templar/noble will react appropriately to not getting his bow-fix in.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 17, 2007, 09:50:43 AM
Marginally, I condone Lizzie's addition, since I understand that people don't all feel the same way about the look command. However, I, specifically, feel that the look command is just a look, it's not a stare. Therefore, I don't particularly agree with having to even achknowledge the Templar/Noble as being in the room unless you specifically have cause to do so. And even if you know he/she is in the room, you don't really have to bow to them.

Nobles/Templars who require bow-fixes need to not be Nobles/Templars. Bow when it's ICly appropriate, not when you think the player has a fetish.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: spawnloser on November 17, 2007, 01:39:09 PM
I hate bow-gasms.  That is all.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Rindan on November 18, 2007, 10:21:41 PM
In my opinion, there is no need to bow to a templar/noble that looks at you.  If he is emoting out staring at you and you see it, you might want to get up and bow.  If a Templar walks into a bar and looks at you, you don't need to stand up until he comes over to the bar or addresses you.  It isn't like wherever the Templar's eyes pass people instantly drop a bow.  A Templar can look at the people around them without each one instantly prostrating themselves (unless they are a black robed... in which case you should prostrate yourself long before they look at you).  Getting hit by a look command isn't enough reason to bow, it is just a look and nothing more.  Templars "look" at lots of people in a city of half a million without causing a tidal wave of bows.

I think 7DV hits it pretty well on the head as to when you should be bowing.  It all basically revolves around 'the Templar/noble is paying attention to you and you realize it'.  The only other time outside of that that I bow is if I have to move past a noble or Templar, in which case I think a quick bow isn't a bad idea.  A Templar walking down the street might not score a back bending bows on every person he passes, but I imagine most commoners that get close drop a very quick and short bow that is closer to a nod then a bow.  The idea is more that you are not striding by with your nose up in the air and showing quick deference without interrupting what you are doing before passing by.  The same goes with a Templar standing in a doorway you want to get through.  You might not break your back, but it probably can't hurt to dip your head in deference as you pass though.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Lizzie on November 18, 2007, 11:40:45 PM
Because of the echo from "look" I feel it is more than just "seeing" people nearby. I 'see' the dark, green-haired woman, because she is in the same room.  When I 'look' at her, I am taking special notice of her. Examining her features and her clothing, studying her scars and tattooes. That is not a fleeting glimpse. I would love it if "look" didn't return an echo. But it does. And since it does, I roll with it, and assume that if someone did -not- want me to know they were taking an interest in me, they wouldn't be looking that intently in my direction.

This, is all assuming they simply "look woman" and not use the emotes that can be added to looking, to show me that the glance is fleeting, or the focus immediately shifts, or that a soldier immediately gets in the way of his glance in my direction, etc. etc. I roleplay those as they are provided. Without an attached emote, I assume it is a noticeable look at me.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Rindan on November 19, 2007, 10:10:06 PM
The look command is the only way to gather basic information that any idiot should be able to gather in about half a second with a glance.  If you walk into a bar and there is a naked woman sitting a stool you will see her, regardless if you "look" or not.  The only way for a Templar or noble to get even the most basic information about the people that they might need to respond to is to look.  Otherwise, the only thing they will know is that the dude is tall and has blue eyes... utterly ignoring that he is wielding a two handed battle ax and is wearing a blood soaked Tuluki soldier uniform.

The same goes in reverse.  A commoner that looks at a Templar is not having a staring contest with the Templar.  The commoner is glancing up for about 2 seconds, figuring out what sex the Templar is so they don't screw up Lord or Lady, observing what color the robe is so they know the appropiate amount of cowering they need to perform, and quickly recognizing or don't recognizing the face as the Templar that he owes money too.  Treating the commoner like he just stared you down is silly.  I can look up and tell if I recognize you, what color your robe is, and what sex you are without staring you down.

As a general rule of thumb, IMO, if someone just types "look" look is all they did.  Now, if they append that they are staring you down or giving  you a long look, then sure, consider it a stare down.  Until then, consider it a glance that gathered all the obvious information that any human can gather in about a split second.

Until Armageddon has a super awesome AI that tells you all the things your character would instantly recognize upon walking into a room, you need to look the old fashion way to find those things out.  People who don't make liberal use of the look command end up talking casually to the gemmed magikers with multi-colored sparkling robes for a half hour, calling the Lady Templar "Lord Templar", and not noticing that a black robed Templar just walked in and NOW is the time to throw yourself face first onto the ground.

My advice is to talk "look" with a grain of salt unless someone emotes something to the contrary.  We don't need a bowing wave when a Templar stands by the door and looks down the length of the bar.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Lizzie on November 19, 2007, 10:17:59 PM
That sounds fair to me Rindan. I had considered it from the other extreme mostly because I have read on this GDB and even in the documentation, that a templar can kill you just because they didn't like how you looked at them. And that was before "look" could have emotes appended to it.

So all you templars and nobles and important fancy people of author-ih-tay: if someone looks at you, in no particular way, suck it up and live with it. It was no particular kind of look and for all you know, they might be standing -behind- you and looking at your skinny legs.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Fathi on November 19, 2007, 10:27:40 PM
Quote from: "Rindan"
We don't need a bowing wave when a Templar stands by the door and looks down the length of the bar.


The only issue with this is, of course, that sometimes templar and noble PCs get pissy when they walk in and you don't bow to them immediately upon seeing them.

 It's happened enough that I think a lot of people just find it easier to emote bowing the second they notice the important PC as opposed to not doing it and potentially facing IC wrath, despite the fact that a lot of people on the GDB think instabowing is stupid.

Unless the staff officially puts it in the docs that it's not considered social faux-pas to not bow the second you see a noble/templar that isn't of unusually high rank, then I figure you're going to keep seeing noble and templar PCs who expect it.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on November 19, 2007, 10:38:31 PM
I've had a PC get in trouble for not insta-bowing to a red-robed templar.

I think I've seen a PC or two get in mild trouble for not bowing when an entering noble has their servant formally announce them.

I've even seen some PCs get smacked in the head by soldiers when they don't bow to a templar who's addressing their buddy sitting next to them at the bar.

But I've never once seen a PC get in trouble for not insta-bowing to a noble  who just strolled in quietly and looked around.  

It may have happened 8 or 9 years ago, but it doesn't happen these days.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: jstorrie on November 19, 2007, 11:12:29 PM
That templar may have just had it in for the guy / felt like messing with someone and singled him out just for the sake of it, too. Which is feasible.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Troicha on November 19, 2007, 11:14:56 PM
Quote from: "jstorrie"
That templar may have just had it in for the guy / felt like messing with someone and singled him out just for the sake of it, too. Which is feasible.


QFT. This is -always- an excuse.

Edited to add, a few seconds after posting: Always an excuse for making the character's life hell, not messing with the player's enjoyment.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Rindan on November 19, 2007, 11:27:44 PM
Meh, I make it a point to not bow unless it makes sense.  A Templar or noble stepping into the tavern and glancing at me doesn't warrant getting off my ass, and I personally have never had it be an issue.  If Lord Templar Whatever has it out for you, maybe you should be throwing yourself at his feet the second he steps in.  Otherwise though, I have never seen anyone ever get in trouble for it in the past decade.  

Keep in mind that in places like the Gaj, the Barrel, or the streets, you are talking about very large and crowded areas.  Just because a tavern is a "room" doesn't mean that it is a "room" in the way meeting a Templar/noble in an estate or compound is a "room".  These are places that have hundreds of people in them, are extremely loud, and in general a Templar poking his head in is not going to arose much excitement nor provoke a bow wave except among the people closest to the Templar.  

Nobles are an even more extreme case of "easy to ignore".  At a glance, there is no real difference in dress between a Kadian merchant an a noble.  A noble or Kadian might pick out the difference, but a commoner won't.  They both dress nice, they both have servants and guards, and in general there is little difference in terms of appearance for your average commoner Amos.  The only way most commoners could tell a minor noble from a Kadian merchant is the fact that a noble has a signet ring.  You are pretty unlikely to see a signet ring from half way across the room and would just look weired standing up to bow in some random direction before sitting back down.  If a noble wants you to bow, he will get himself announce or be standing in front of you and talking to you.  A noble that isn't getting him/her self announce is pretty easy to miss.

Personally, I think that people have way too much fear of getting whacked for not bowing at silly times.  Nobles and Templars tend to understand what is and is not appropiate.  I really can't recall any noble or Templar demanding any silly "bow at me because I looked at you from half way across the room".  The worst I have seen is a Templar/noble swiftly approaching a commoner and then reaming them out for not bowing fast enough.  When they do this, it is almost always done not because they wanted to pick on that person already for another reason, and not bowing fast enough because the excuse.  It is just the Templar/noble finding a quasi-legal pretext give you a hard time for some other non-bowing related offense.

The worst I have ever seen is over enthusiastic subordinates cajoling people to stand up and bow because they saw a look echo.  Even in these cases, while the instance that NOW is the time to bow might be a little off (in my opinion) it generally leads to nowhere so long as the commoner in question shrugs just does it.

My general rule of thumb is:

1)  Bow if you are told to, even if it is stupid.

2)  Give a quick bow if you are going to pass within a few feet of said noble/Templar.

3)  Bow before initiating a conversation with a noble/templar.

4)  Bow if they initiate a conversation with you.

5)  Bow if they are in your general vicinity.  In other words, if they come over to the bar and you are at the bar, bowing is a good idea.  

6)  If they are talking to someone you are sitting or talking with, bow.

7)  Bow if you are in a confined space with a Templar/noble (pretty much any place that is not a road or tavern).

8)  Bow if a Templar/noble has it out for you... and bribe him to be nice.

Otherwise, don't worry.  The worst that happens is that the stars line up, and a Templar gives you a hard time.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Do your best scared-shitless-don't-hurt-me routine and they will leave you alone.  Nobles and Templars don't kill at random these days.  You have to do something, and not bowing when they step in a room filled with a few hundred other people isn't enough of a "something" to get your ass kicked.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 20, 2007, 07:11:42 AM
Amen, Rindan.

I sometimes hint ICly when people bow for no good reason. I'm sure ICly that it's flattering to the noble character, but I really think that letting it go once starts a damned wave and the next thing you know, all forty-seven of the PCs in the Tavern will be bowing as soon as some minor Lord darkens the archway.

To assist the concept of not needing to bow orgasmically, I like to ask what the commoner wants, or emote ignoring or not noticing them, or emote about the sheer crush of bodies or some such.

I will say this, though. For Tek's sake, don't refer to a Noble/Templar who's talking to you by nodding in greeting and saying sir or ma'am, specifically if you happen to be a citizen of whichever City-State you're in. This is really a little too casual, and I don't think any common citizen in their right mind would do it, unless they just really didn't know they were talking to a Noble/Templar.

Nobles, always remember, clothes are clothes ... it's the ring that gives the opposing PC the knowledge, upon having met you for the first time, that you are a Noble. No need to flip out too much if the ring isn't visible.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Lizzie on November 20, 2007, 08:59:36 AM
Actually Venom, I'm a huge fan of Ma'am and Sir and would love to see its use promoted in the game. They are titles of respect; in every language in the real world, translated. A queen's maid would address her mistress as "Your majesty" upon approach. When the queen orders her maid to do something, she would respond using "your majesty." But when the queen asks her maid a question, it is absolutely correct to reply, "Yes Ma'am." or "No Ma'am." In England it would be "Mum" but you get the idea.

These are terms commoners would use to defer to their superiors. Nobles are superior to commoners. Nobles, therefore, should take no offense at being referred to with a term of superiority by an inferior commoner once dialogue has begun.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 20, 2007, 09:16:48 AM
Mmmm, nah. Why? Not because you're wrong, but because Sir and Ma'am is what you call your Sergeant, and your Corporal, and ... your boss at the tavern. The thing is, they are still commoners. Those sirs and ma'ams aren't really better than you, they just know more.

Nobles are better than you. Calling them Sir and Ma'am is disrespectful because you're telling them that they are not more deserving of a title above that of the common militia sergeant.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: brytta.leofa on November 20, 2007, 10:22:06 AM
Quote from: "Lizzie"
Actually Venom, I'm a huge fan of Ma'am and Sir and would love to see its use promoted in the game. They are titles of respect; in every language in the real world, translated. A queen's maid would address her mistress as "Your majesty" upon approach. When the queen orders her maid to do something, she would respond using "your majesty." But when the queen asks her maid a question, it is absolutely correct to reply, "Yes Ma'am." or "No Ma'am." In England it would be "Mum" but you get the idea.

I actually like this; repeating "Lord" or "Lady" every sentence seems so awkward.  I have, however, had characters criticized in-game for using those titles with nobles.  And "Ma'am" has always worried me a little because of its historical use of addressing a married woman...which application in 'geddon is hard to pin down.  I've generally used "miss" or "mistress" to address a female commoner with respect.

I've recently seen people using "sir" as the title of respect for a military superior of either sex, which I find rather compelling and feudalish.  Though I guess its etymology is originally from "sire"?
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: staggerlee on November 20, 2007, 10:22:55 AM
Hey, bowing depends on the character too. A  total kiss ass might bow all the time, a real lazy bastard might pretend not to see the noble until they're breathing down his neck.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on November 20, 2007, 10:43:22 AM
Part of the problem with titles is that modern English lacks formal and honorific pronouns.  Many other languages have different words for "you" that imply familiarity or formality.  Titles must be explicitly stated because "you" by itself sounds too familiar.  So instead of a familiar-sounding "How are you?" you must say "How are you, lord templar?" or "How are you, sir?" to show proper verbal respect.  That's why many characters say my lord or my lady in every other sentence.

My take on Armageddon titles has been:
 :arrow: Lord/Lady for a noble.  Never use "lady" or "ladies" to refer to common women, as tends to be done in modern English vernacular.
 :arrow: Sir for a military superior.  A few female military leaders have accepted being called ma'am, some have not.  I'd say it's optional.
 :arrow: Master/mistress is for a slave addressing their owner, noble or common.
 :arrow: Mister/miss is for merchant family members, other notable commoners, or any time someone wishes to be exceedingly polite to any commoner.  Generally an official title (agent, aide, etc) would be preferred if known, though.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on November 20, 2007, 12:19:17 PM
Quote from: "Lizzie"
I'm a huge fan of Ma'am and Sir and would love to see its use promoted in the game...These are terms commoners would use to defer to their superiors. Nobles are superior to commoners. Nobles, therefore, should take no offense at being referred to with a term of superiority by an inferior commoner once dialogue has begun.


Sorry, but this is totally not in line with the game documentation or the culture of either city-state as it's played out in game. So, just, no. When it comes to commoners speaking to nobles, using "sir" or "ma'am" is completely incorrect, disrespectful, and should get you a swift correction by someone.

7DV and Moe have it correct.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: ale six on November 20, 2007, 02:06:36 PM
I'll chip in here, having played a senior noble once upon a time.

With templars, in both city-states, you can tell pretty easily and quickly what rank they are. If a templar who is above blue robe in Allanak, or above your garden variety Lirathan/Jihaen in Tuluk walks into a tavern or around your character, I would expect the whole tavern to quiet down and be nervous and act respectful, and bow if you're in Allanak. The "I was sitting at the bar and didn't see him, my back was turned" excuse doesn't really hold up for High Templars or Red Robes, because these people have presence and they are scary, and even if you don't notice them instantly, the rest of the tavern will, and that will ripple across pretty quick. Seeing these kinds of characters in taverns should be rare, though, especially for the less cultured taverns.

Blue robes and their Tuluki equivalents, like most people have said, probably don't need an instabow unless your character is interacting with them in some meaningful fashion. If you want to be safe over sorry, bow anyway, but it's probably not expected.

As for nobles... nobles are trickier, because they tend not to have such blatant displays of rank. You can still, if you're sharp, tell the difference between a Senator and a junior noble, but it's not always obvious. Typically if a noble wants their presence to be noted and paid proper respect to, they will have a servant or guard announce them as they walk in. If a noble with a senior-sounding title announces themself, everybody should probably get up and bow. If it's just a junior noble, it may not be necessary even then. If the noble just walks in and heads to a table, they probably aren't expecting very many bows or anything, since they didn't announce their presence.

Whatever you do, though, don't purposefully acknowledge somebody with something that isn't a proper show of respect. Don't just look at an Allanaki templar/noble and nod politely. If you're recognising them, you should get up and bow.

When I was playing my noble I honestly got tired of paying attention who bowed to me and who didn't. I'd only call somebody out for a blatant snub or for doing the wrong thing.

As far as titles and "sir/ma'am" for nobles, I think Moe has it right. I wouldn't call a noble or templar sir or ma'am unless I was specifically told I should. If somebody had addressed my noble as ma'am, she probably would have corrected them or whipped them, depending on who they were and how she was feeling that day.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Lizzie on November 20, 2007, 02:36:00 PM
One thing about the whole problem of familiarity and casual approach, I think, is in part the result of templars and/or nobles hanging out in bars. For playability's sake, you really have to give them leeway to do this.

But, a templar showing up in the Gaj should have a damned good reason for being there. "Patrolling" is not a damned good reason, or even a slightly appropriate reason. The city has a militia. It is the militia's job to do patrols. If a templar does -not- want to breed familiarity, then he shouldn't even be stepping foot into the filthiest low-caste commoner's bar in the "accessable" part of the city unless he has very specific business there. If he shows up every week, or every other week, or every three days, then he should learn to accept that some people who hang out there (or whose new players generate there for the first time) will consider that templar to pretty much be asking for familiarity and casual approach.

It is no different, in my mind, as a rinthi hanging out in Trader's. You just don't do that, unless you have serious cause other than "Oh I just wanted to see who was around."

Up in the north the same would go for the Anakore's Burrow. A Winrothol wouldn't go into the tribal bar "just to see who's there." Unless a Winrothol had some very specific reason to want to know. Unfortunately the Sanctuary is across from the wagonyard, and the stables, and the closest bar to the city gate, plus it is the "gen room" in Tuluk. So it's impossible for it to actually "be" the high class establishment its description implies.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on November 20, 2007, 02:50:04 PM
If you're responding to my post, I was using familiarity in a linguistic and social status sense, rather than referring to rarity.

In a rarity sense, templars are already very "familiar".  Commoners see them all the time.  You can hardly go anywhere in the city without passing at least one NPC templar, and probably a dozen vNPC ones too.  Nobles a little less so, but I'm sure they're frequently seen around Traders, the bazaar, and traveling along the major roads in the city.

I don't think it's a logical assumption at all, though, that a noble or templar who hangs out in common establishments should expect people to stop bowing or addressing them as lord/lady (templar).  Now, they might make common "friends" who are often invited to sit and chat, but those people have by no means earned the right to eschew bowing.

P.S. This is all in the context of Allanak.  I understand Tuluk has some slightly different social rules where the nobles really do become somewhat familiar with the people, or some silly barbarian notion like that.  :wink:
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on November 20, 2007, 02:51:21 PM
Quote from: "Lizzie"
But, a templar showing up in the Gaj should have a damned good reason for being there. "Patrolling" is not a damned good reason, or even a slightly appropriate reason. The city has a militia. It is the militia's job to do patrols.


The templars supervise the militia. Additionally, a templar can be anywhere s/he damn well pleases. If a templar wants to go in the Gaj to arrest someone, shake someone down, put a gem on someone, sell someone a merchant's license, yell at some soldiers, pick up a bottle of booze, or whatever other reason, the templar can do that. PROBABLY a templar won't hang out at the Gaj. But who are you to say they can't? That's between the templars and the rest of the nobles.

Quote from: "Lizzie"
If a templar does -not- want to breed familiarity, then he shouldn't even be stepping foot into the filthiest low-caste commoner's bar in the "accessable" part of the city unless he has very specific business there. If he shows up every week, or every other week, or every three days, then he should learn to accept that some people who hang out there (or whose new players generate there for the first time) will consider that templar to pretty much be asking for familiarity and casual approach.


A templar or a noble in Allanak can HAVE SEX with your commoner character and still not "breed" familiarity. Thus it's ridiculous to say that merely hanging out in a tavern would do so.

Quote from: "Lizzie"
It is no different, in my mind, as a rinthi hanging out in Trader's. You just don't do that, unless you have serious cause other than "Oh I just wanted to see who was around."


The reason 'rinthis don't hang out in Trader's is because they will be thrown out. It has nothing to do with having a serious reason to be there; they do not belong there, period, end of story, regardless what kind of reason they think they have.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: staggerlee on November 20, 2007, 03:07:35 PM
To some extent, on an ooc level a player may sit back and think to themself "I want to impress on people that my character is untouchable, perhaps rather than going to the bars, or even contacting people through the Way I'll have a soldier bring them to me, and toss them at my feet."  Which is fine, and probably not a bad tactic.

However... Gimf is right.  We're talking a totally totalitarian society here.  I wouldn't want to be the person to explain to the templar "Oh sorry, I just kind of take you for granted because I see you so much, that's why I bumped into you on my way out the door and spilled my beer all over you."
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Troicha on November 20, 2007, 03:32:18 PM
Quote from: "Lizzie"
But, a templar showing up in the Gaj should have a damned good reason for being there. "Patrolling" is not a damned good reason, or even a slightly appropriate reason. The city has a militia. It is the militia's job to do patrols. If a templar does -not- want to breed familiarity, then he shouldn't even be stepping foot into the filthiest low-caste commoner's bar in the "accessable" part of the city unless he has very specific business there. If he shows up every week, or every other week, or every three days, then he should learn to accept that some people who hang out there (or whose new players generate there for the first time) will consider that templar to pretty much be asking for familiarity and casual approach.


I disagree, and I will explain myself with allegory.

Imagine a seedy bar in the bad part of town where the migrant workers and other types hang out, that may or may not have a criminal underbelly. It gets along just fine; not the prettiest place, but its patrons go there because that's where they feel they belong.

Now imagine that an agent from the FBI, suit and all, decided to come in. While you won't see people getting up to bow like you would in Armageddon, there will definitely be a ripple of unease, to say the least. People will stare and mutter under their breaths. They will feel uncomfortable. In Arm, they're too afraid of authority to do even that. In a migrant bar, there will likely be people there who hope he just doesn't notice them, because he could report them to the immigration police.

That's just one time. Now, imagine what would happen if the agent decided to start going there regularly, possibly even with a group of friends. There would be mutterings and strange looks, but in Armageddon, still deference to the templar. If they came back regularly enough, the bar's regular patrons would migrate to somewhere less dangerous, and the place would likely shut down, or at least radically change.

However, let me stress that, at least IG, the templar will be unwelcome and unwanted, but NO ONE is going to tell him that he "doesn't belong there." At most, the proprietor will complain along the correct political channels, because he's paying his bribes to the Templarate.

Let me reiterate: scum does not get comfortable with the Templarate. Scum AVOIDS the  Templarate, even if that means finding a different bar after some crazy Blue Robe (or the militia?) has taken a liking to the Gaj.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Lizzie on November 20, 2007, 03:52:18 PM
And if nobility and templars are seen that often in such a low-class establishment, and those same nobles and templars *seem* to choose that scummy place in favor of their high-class establishment which is closer to their own quarters...then that tells me, these particular nobles and templars are obviously out of favor with their respective families, or consider themselves to be inferior. For surely, people of quality would not choose to hang out in seedy establishments. They are better..their noses are more sensitive to stench, their skin too delicate to be surrounded by filth...their backsides too soft to sit on splintered chairs with no padding, their silk too pristine to be sullied by slime.

If I was a commoner who hung out at the Gaj, I would either stop hanging out there because obviously the "fancy folk" have decided it's their place now, and I no longer belong. Or - I would stay, quietly, and snicker when the fancy folk left because obviously the fancy folk aren't too fancy to slum it so regularly and casually.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: staggerlee on November 20, 2007, 03:54:57 PM
Again... you're welcome to tell the templar he's a low life for hanging out in the Gaj.  I can just imagine how that'd go.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Troicha on November 20, 2007, 03:56:00 PM
You may very well stay and snicker, but that's more than a tad bit dangerous when said-same folk can have you drawn and quartered, or have you turned inside out while still alive, if they take a mind to.

I won't tell anyone their own character's personality, I'm just saying that it strikes me that most vNPCs don't think the risk/benefit ratio is very favourable.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Marauder Moe on November 20, 2007, 03:58:32 PM
Well I never said that commoners wouldn't snicker and make jokes behind a slumming noble/templar's back.  I hardly see that as becoming "familiar", though.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 20, 2007, 04:09:07 PM
I hope that this caste issue is seriously addressed in the next game. I hate being in the Gaj while everyone else in the Traders, and visa versa. And the other tavern is no longer a real option.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: amish overlord on November 20, 2007, 04:09:26 PM
Templars can have a reason for slumming, looking for suspicious people etc. Noble have harder time explaining why slumming, maybe looking for recruit but might send an aide instead. A templar might be also looking for unsavory people to do things for them as well. So seeing a templar in low class bar while not exactly common, probably in my opinion isn't taboo as a noble.

Amish Overlord  8)
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on November 20, 2007, 04:10:51 PM
There's a huge range of things a noble or a templar can do to earn the disrespect of the PC/NPC/VNPC populace (including commoners), in either city. Yes, that may mean PCs/NPCs/VNPCs (including commoners)are snickering behind the backs of templars and nobles who are perceived as incompetent, stupid, politically idiotic, acting above themselves, acting below themselves, wearing the wrong fashions, sitting in the wrong tavern, having stupid/incompetent employees, etc.

That's an entirely different matter than the respect which WILL be shown to that same noble or templar when s/he is in your face or otherwise nearby. It doesn't matter how little a commoner thinks of that noble or templar, they'd be a fool to use anything other than proper modes of address and offer proper gestures of respect.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Medena on November 20, 2007, 04:39:02 PM
Quote from: "Allanaki Noble docs"
On Armageddon, the vast majority of Allanak commoners, who live and die by the mercy of the Highlord, firmly believe that nobles are nobles because they're better. The same holds true for the nobles, who assume their privileged position is correct because they are of better blood and finer material than a commoner. This attitude is reinforced by their benefits: literacy, which acquires near-mystical dimensions in an illiterate society; vast wealth; social status; and freedom from most of the laws of the city.


The noble who slums in the Gaj or who likes to go barefooted or who talks to magickers is still a noble and therefore better than you.  These aberrant behaviours will bring them censure from their peers no doubt and might affect where you, the commoner, place them in mental rankings.  If you toady up to nobles for possible future favours, you'd be less likely to do so with these ones, simply because they'd be less better placed in the noble world.  If you act out of fear of what a noble can do to you, again, your fear may be lesser because this noble would be less likely to call in a favour with a templar and have you killed.

But they are still better than you.  ;)
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Troicha on November 20, 2007, 06:10:07 PM
Quote from: "Medena"
If you act out of fear of what a noble can do to you, again, your fear may be lesser because this noble would be less likely to call in a favour with a templar and have you killed.


While I agree with this, I just wanted to point something out. While

Quote from: "Allanaki Noble General Info"
Nobles are, to a certain extent, above the laws of Allanak, due to their standing. This is not license to go out and kill commoners freely, but a noble who gets involved in a fight will probably not get hauled off to jail.


...wait, nevermind.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Barzalene on November 20, 2007, 07:31:40 PM
Quote from: "Fathi"
Quote from: "Rindan"
We don't need a bowing wave when a Templar stands by the door and looks down the length of the bar.


The only issue with this is, of course, that sometimes templar and noble PCs get pissy when they walk in and you don't bow to them immediately upon seeing them.

 It's happened enough that I think a lot of people just find it easier to emote bowing the second they notice the important PC as opposed to not doing it and potentially facing IC wrath, despite the fact that a lot of people on the GDB think instabowing is stupid.

Unless the staff officially puts it in the docs that it's not considered social faux-pas to not bow the second you see a noble/templar that isn't of unusually high rank, then I figure you're going to keep seeing noble and templar PCs who expect it.


I kind of like the whole insta-bow and tremble in fear experience. Realistic or not.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: amish overlord on November 20, 2007, 08:37:46 PM
Back in the day insta bow was expect and good for life expectancy, remember nobles just killing people for not bowing(think was a tor remember specifically) I also remember one time losing link in and tavern finding myself, dead around this time. Had suspiciously was killed for this reason, but can't be sure. Fortunately this doesn't seem to happen anymore.

Amish Overlord  8)
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: LauraMars on November 20, 2007, 08:56:49 PM
Seeing templars in weird places doesn't bug me at all.

Templars (well, Allanak templars) seem like corrupt police chiefs.  They are the ultimate, and can do whatever the hell they want.  They're the law.    Nobles are the movie stars who don't get arrested for driving drunk because they're bribing the law, and when they are arrested, it's a big scandal.  Because they're bribing the law they can sometimes use the organization to their advantage, like getting an upstart commoner knocked off.

In both cases, commoners are dirt, and the only people who really get to snicker at the offending templar or noble without consequences are people in the same social strata.  I guess average joe commoners can snicker if they want, but it isn't gonna do much besides put the commoner in danger if they get caught at it.

Jihaens and Lirathans seem like warrior monks and high priestesses.

I guess that's a separate discussion.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Fathi on November 20, 2007, 09:38:44 PM
This is just me speculating, but when I think of how the average commoner in Allanak (grebbers, whores, Bynners, etc) would react to a templar or noble slumming in the Gaj, I can't really picture there being much an urge to snicker at all. 'Nak is a cutthroat, brutal society where favours and ass-kissing with those in higher social strata are a way to stay alive.

Personally, my 'Nakki born-and-raised commoner archetype wouldn't snicker after Lady Oash leaves the tavern because my buddies at the bar have a lot to be gained from reporting me and a lot to lose if they're seen snickering along with me.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Lizzie on November 20, 2007, 09:53:13 PM
I guess you are all just missing my point then. I am not explaining myself very well. You are comparing templars to real world corrupt police officers. You should stop doing that. There is no comparison. Corrupt police officers don't show up in full-dress uniform without backup, to a biker bar and sit down at the bar. That would be suicide, and the bikers there would be more than happy to assist with that suicide. Don't make comparisons. They just don't work.

A templar considers -himself- above commoners. He expects commoners to consider him above them. THey are dirt under his feet, unworthy of his presence. If he gives his presence to them, it is a HUGE GIFT that they should be grateful for. If he shows up every single day, it ceases to be a big deal. It is no longer special. His presence is no longer worth oohing and ahhing over. Sort of like the presence of magickers that everyone was complaining about. See enough of them often enough in public places and it just becomes too difficult, ICly and OOCly, to really care.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Shiroi Tsuki on November 20, 2007, 09:57:41 PM
Since I don't see anywhere in the documents the stipulation that Templars/nobles can't walk into a seedy bar...

Templars can do whatever they deem IC for their character.  My character will do whatever I deem IC for my character.

If something's grossly inappropriate, the Storytellers can yell at them/me.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: staggerlee on November 20, 2007, 10:00:25 PM
I do feel like I should probably play the devil's advocate now.

The advantage to templars avoiding the Gaj is of course that they can pay someone else to go for them.  I'm sure a templar could patrol the city themself, but it's more fun for everyone if they're sending militia, or aides with messages, or buying people to be their eyes and ears.

All in all, the more you delegate and avoid doing things, the more players you keep involved and active.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Mood on November 20, 2007, 10:35:55 PM
What if the templar is just tired of listening to bantering nobles in the Trader's, and wants a strong drink without the bullshit?
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Troicha on November 20, 2007, 10:43:39 PM
The Gaj DOES have the best public booze in Allanak.

Just saying.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Rhyden on November 20, 2007, 10:47:32 PM
Templars aren't public.

They're pubic.

No wait...
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Dalmeth on November 20, 2007, 10:55:08 PM
Quote from: "Mood"
What if the templar is just tired of listening to bantering nobles in the Trader's, and wants a strong drink without the bullshit?


He or she can retire to a lavish apartment and drink something far superior to the swill served at a bar.  If a Templar finds themselves slumming it in a bar too often, they should find themselves the subject of derision by the upper crust of society.  Familiarity breeds a degree of disrespect among the general populace, and they should grow to expect certain responses from commoners that others of their position might consider insulting.

Not to mention the fact that templars rule in large part by fear.  No one can deny that there is a segment of the population of either city that wouldn't mind killing a templar for that reason alone.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Mood on November 20, 2007, 11:18:34 PM
Quote from: "Troicha"
The Gaj DOES have the best public booze in Allanak.

Just saying.


Truth.

Real men (and women) do their drinking at the Gaj.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Simple on November 20, 2007, 11:25:09 PM
Quote from: "Mood"

Real men (and women) do their drinking at the Gaj.


In Allanak, yes.
Title: Templars and fear
Post by: Rindan on November 20, 2007, 11:26:05 PM
I personally wouldn't spend too much time worrying and second guessing what Templars are doing.  There are never more then a few playing at once, and I imagine that they have staff eyes on them more than anyone else in the game.  I imagine the staff will do the right thing and dock their status accordingly with the largely NPC population of their cohorts.

As for what a commoner thinks of it, a Templar stepping into the tavern and looking around would likely be pretty common, especially in a blue robe who is directly managing militia.  I doubt it would raise any eyebrows and at worst cause people to do quick bows as they scoot around the Templar standing in the door.  

On the other hand, a Templar sitting down at the bar and pounding a few brews should probably cause minor distress among commoners for two reasons.  

First, Templars are scary.  It is nice to have a Templar to kill or collar the evil magikers, keep out the gith, and drive away the Tuluki barbarian hordes.  However, despite youru deep love and thankfulness for the Highlord's benevolence in providing Templars to save you from the horrible terrors of the wastes, Templars are still god damn scary.  Magik, even "good" magik is scary stuff.  Not only are they terrifying magik wielding avatars of your most benevolent and powerful God King, but they are Nobles on top of that.  That means that they are pretty much a different species with inhuman motives living in an inhuman powers and spending much of their time in the inhuman world of nobility.  Not many commoners can wrap their mind around what a Templar is and still have much thirst for drinking.  Templars are comforts from afar and terrors up close.

Second, despite their awesome and terrible power and glory, commoners do have certain expectations of their Templars and Nobles.  Commoners recognize these people as super human people with inhuman motives, but they still have expectations as to how these people act.  The most obvious thing that a commoner expects is for a Templar (or noble), a high and mighty creature, to remain high and mighty.  They don't need to be morally sound, incorruptible, or against snorting a line of spice.  They do need to show themselves to be the better of commoners at all times, or else shatter the expectations of commoners.

So, don't worry if you see a Templar or noble slumming it.  A staff member probably already knows and is applying the appropiate consequences.  That said, you as a commoner are still able to react.  You might not be in any position to make demands, but you can be disconcerted by a Templar who doesn't seem to be acting in line with your expectations of a Templar.  I suggest worrying about what you should do IC, and let the staff worry about the consequences for the Templar ICly.  Just because you don't see any consequences doesn't mean that there aren't any.
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: Riev on February 08, 2010, 12:57:46 AM
I wanted to pitch in about Tuluk here.
Tuluk, for all of its pleasantness, is in truth more brutal than Allanak.  Many Tulukis might not be aware of the fact, but they certainly do know that the vast majority of crimes in Tuluk are punished by death.  People in Tuluk disappear left in right and without any explanation.
Every single time a Tuluki is looking for someone and can't find them, they're probably going to wonder if that person was silently executed.  Haven't seen your lover for two days?  Well, maybe they're dead already.  People don't discuss people who vanished, and often they don't even know why they vanished in the first place.
To me, it's extremely similar to the Ministry of Love in Orwell's 1984, except they don't let you out before you're shot in the back of the head.

Living in a city like Tuluk is living in constant, maddening paranoia.  Some Tulukis might react to this by becoming excessively patriotic, deciding that the Templarate is absolute justice.  Other Tulukis, especially those that have actually interacted with a Templar on more than one occasion, will see that they can also be corrupt on occasion.

In other words, while some Tulukis might revere the Templars, they usually fear them more than they love them; what if that Jihaen saw you just when a bug flew into your mouth and you made a face?  If they took affront to that, you'll probably disappear tomorrow without being able to explain it was an honest mistake.  What if you had a weird hunch or made a lucky guess at some point and you're suspected for being a witch or a psionicist?  Bam, dead.  What if a good friend of yours turns out to be an abomination and you're wrongly suspected of having helped them?  Bam, dead.

In Allanak, you can get away with a whipping, or paying a bribe, or maybe losing an eye or a limb, or even being thrown into the Arena (where you can shout some parting words or explain yourself briefly before the animal is released, and maybe even win your freedom).  In Tuluk, punishment is generally either enslavement, a fine or execution.


Now, about templars:
In Tuluk, it's considered rude to bow to a regular Templar because it's too similar to how things used to be when Tuluk was under Allanaki occupation.  Bowing to a Tuluki templar is, in a way, comparing them to Allanaki templars, and they don't like that.
When a very important Templar comes along, you bow or kneel to them because it's the single biggest honor of your entire, pitiful life.

In Allanak, you bow to a regular Templar.  However, because Allanak has a huge amount of blue-robed templars patrolling the streets, standing at corners and going about their business, you can get away with only bowing to templars that notice you or you have business with.  Otherwise you'd have to bow at least twenty times whenever you wanted to go from the Bard's Barrel to the Dragon Temple to buy some water, and that's simply not practical.  This isn't to say that templars aren't frightening -- to most regular people in a city-state, a templar can do anything, purely by whim.  If a blue-robed templar goes to your Bynner Sergeant or your indie ranger and decides that you're a slave now, you're a slave.  If they want you dead, you die.
When a red-robed templar comes around, everything stops completely for a few minutes and everyone bows.  Some people might kneel.  This is because, for all practical purposes, a red-robed templar can do ANYTHING they want, no matter what, and suffer no consequences whatsoever.  A red-robed templar can walk up to a regular (non-senior) noble and decide to banish them from the city because they annoyed him.  Provided this noble wasn't incredibly important, and most of them aren't, nothing will happen to the red-robe as a result.

Now, a black-robed templar... a black-robed templar is an evil, omnipotent and omniscient demigod with a temper and, as far as anyone knows, enough power to kill all life in the Known World in two seconds flat.  When a black-robe arrives, everyone kneels and stays kneeling until that black-robe is well, well out of sight.  Because if that black-robe thinks, even for half a second, that you don't respect them quite enough, you'll die instantly.


Templars are plenty scary in Zalanthas.  The reason it's easy to forget this fact is that many things aren't OOCly allowed -- a PC templar can't walk around enslaving, maiming or throwing people into the Arena at random because players will complain about it, and this is ultimately a game designed to be fun for everyone.  What more people need to realize, perhaps, is that these restrictions don't actually exist in the game world, but are rather an OOC courtesy of sorts.  ICly, a templar is fully capable of taking you out of a tavern and brutally murder you simply because they didn't like the hat you were wearing.

I was going through the forum and read this, and was wondering on people's reaction to it in current time. Its been about two years, and perhaps its just the way I am but I don't fear Tuluki Templars like Larrath suggests, here.

Are things still like this? Do people still feel this way?
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: Ampere on February 08, 2010, 02:13:45 AM
Templars are scary, because they're sponsored roles.  When I meet a character who's earned their essentially limitless political power from the ground up, I'm confident in the knowledge that they know to conduct business.  With templars you've no such luxury.  Don't get me wrong, I've met plenty of templars that were very well done.  However, more than any other class, templars give me the ooc heebie-jeebies.
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: musashi on February 08, 2010, 02:30:31 AM
I think the post is about spot on. Allanak reminds me of Rome. Tuluk kind of reminds of me Stalin's Moscow. I wouldn't feel comfortable in either place  :-\
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: Cutthroat on February 08, 2010, 07:55:46 AM
I was going through the forum and read this, and was wondering on people's reaction to it in current time. Its been about two years, and perhaps its just the way I am but I don't fear Tuluki Templars like Larrath suggests, here.

Are things still like this? Do people still feel this way?

Yes, it is still this way. The only thing I would disagree with in Larrath's post is that Tuluk isn't necessarily more brutal than Allanak; it is just equally brutal, but in a different way from Allanak.

That is, at least, what the documentation allows for. It takes many players that are willing to uphold that brutality in order for the setting to be successful, in both places.
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: Niamh on February 08, 2010, 08:53:18 AM
Why should you fear Tuluki templars?  Think of them like the mafia.  Sure, they're nice to your face, but when you step out of line, they will make you/your family/your friends vanish without a trace, and you might not even see it coming.
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: netflix on February 08, 2010, 01:17:02 PM
Bowing in Allanak...

From what I've always thought, especially trying to take environment into mind, is that with templars (blue robes, and lower ranked nobles as well) you only bow when you come to their direct attention. Could be they want to speak with you, could be you want to speak to them. Or could be they just give you enough of a look.

Gotta figure there are a lot of blue robes. And that Allanak is a -very- crowded city. Blue robes would be constantly on patrol. If people stopped to bow on the street, even those people who passed nearby, foot traffic would come to a complete stop. The main roads like Caravan and Meleths would be a solid traffic jam. Which in turn would make walking along a patrol more difficult for the blue robe.

Same thing for places like the Gaj. Jam packed, full of drunkards, fighters. There's probably blue robes popping in there all the time just to make sure there's not a knife fight in the making. It just seems, conjuring up a very busy, packed, slummy tavern in mind, that it'd be unrealistic that every few minutes the whole tavern would stop everything they're doing to bow to a blue robe.

And places like Traders, that have several nobles and templars in them at any given time (always the virtuals), I gotta imagine that they're there looking for quiet, peaceful conversation. And that having a continual line of commoners bowing to everyone in the room would be considered disruptive, undesirable.
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: path on February 08, 2010, 01:43:15 PM
Once upon a time whenever a robe entered in the south everyone would jump up from their seats and bow. Arguments arose on the GDB. Spam, said some, Other's claimed they didn't have eyes in the back of their heads. The opposition argued, with guards, such an entrance would be noticed. Then emote VNPCs noticing, many cried!

A change began to occur. Some people remained sitting when Templars entered. Some were called out, punished, tortured. Maybe killed. However, over time, this idea gained popularity. In current years, one usually bows when addressed or brought more directly into contact with a robe or noble. Some more careful souls might chose to bow when passing in the streets or to notice when they enter an establishment, but this is no longer a majority opinion and is usually looked at as asking for attention or trying to garner favorable notice.

I would add, should a Red Robe enter, most people would be swift in paying their respects.
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: Gimfalisette on February 08, 2010, 01:49:48 PM
What path said.

Having played various authority figures of various ranks in various locations to whom respects of various kinds might be paid, I much prefer that PCs not insta-bow or insta-nod or insta-salute or insta-anything. If I walk over to you or address you (or if you're approaching me or talking to me), yeah, throw down some respect. If I just look at you, feel free to notice it or not and do what your PC would do, whatever that may be. Otherwise, let's just both be about our business.

That said, however, do please make sure if you're respectin' that you're getting it right. (Unless you're OOCly doin' it wrong on purpose, which is fine.) Do not nod in the south; do not bow in the north; do not address a blue robe or a noble as "Great Lord/Lady"; do not bow/nod to someone who is not a noble/templar. Because when you get it wrong, then, nobles/templars/authorities have to do something about the error.
Title: Re: Templars and fear
Post by: Cavaticus on February 08, 2010, 02:07:17 PM
Do we as staff expect the insta-bow? No, we do not. And we do not encourage templars to expect it either.

Is a templar well within his rights to cut through a crowded room and bitch out your character for not bowing? Absolutely, in the sense that he's allowed to bitch your character out for anything his corrupt little mind can think of.