This has been building up for quite some time now, and I feel the need to let this out:
I'm simply not enjoying the game anymore. There, I said it -- I've finally said what's been knawing at my gut for the past several months now.
I just can't seem to immerse myself in the game world like I could with previous characters. Perhaps that is a fault of my own. I'd like to contend, however, that the real reason the game isn't fun to me anymore is due to one reason: special applications.
Overall, I think the system for special applications is very good. However, tt's been hinted at that due to the closing of this current version of ArmageddonMUD, the more sensitive classes will be open to more players who haven't yet had the chance to play them. This disturbs and saddens me.
Over the course of around three months now, I've noticed not just a small amount of new high-end mages and max karma guilds -- rather, I've noticed a massive influx of said guilds. Not only are these guilds far more prevalent and visible, the players themselves flaunt their power openly and willingly, failing to even attempt to keep their identity secret. In past times, these characters would have been immediately slaughtered for such behavior.
The closing of the game seems to have caused all of us, myself included, to become far more lax with our styles of play.
I really don't know what else to say on this issue. I just can't let it continue and keep remaining quiet over the matter, though. I am sure there are a few players out there who would agree with me on this issue, and I feel strongly about how the game is turning out. I'm not happy with it, and I think that by allowing more players who are simply too unexperienced to handle highly sensitive roles, we will only bring the game down further.
To the staff: Will you please listen to the players on this issue, and offer your own thoughts?
This is a volatile issue with some I'm sure, so please keep any snide comments out of this thread. I don't want it getting locked -- this seriously needs to be discussed by both staff and player alike.
There is one thing you have to keep in mind thought, FJ...I can't really give specifics for the sake of IC info and all, but there -were- Mindbenders and sorcs and all kinds of High-karma IG before the announcement. Have those numbers gone up since the anouncement..yes, but not as much as everyone seems to think.
Whats really changed is the fact that people really want to strive for the idea of making an impact in the old game for the new one. How does one do that with a mundane dung-sweeper? No easily, hence more powerful characters.
Is this really such a major issue though? Is the quality of RP dropping based on power stats for PC's? I don't think so, in fact IMO, I've seen some of the best RP in quite some time over the last little while -because- the game is closing and people want to make that impact.
I guess I'm just weird or something..I really don't see why or how coded skills should effect an RPG. If the RP is bad and causing problems, address the RP and not the coded skill tree.
Quote from: "Janna"Have those numbers gone up since the anouncement..yes, but not as much as everyone seems to think.
Quote from: "Sanvean on recent special applications"50% of this batch were apps for psis. Be aware that the competition for these slots right now is very stiff and that we already have a plethora of them on the game.
Welcome to the club, Forest Junkie. Now be prepared for three answers:
1) You are mad and it's not really happening, it's all in your head.
2) It's happening but it has to do with the end of time RPTs and all is going as planned.
3) Everyone wants to try races and classes they won't get to play again in the new game. (That was a good excuse, when the mud was actually planned to go down for the next one within six months.. Now we're just having an insane amount of special classes accepted and the current mud might still be open come Xmas.)
Do like me, if you can't beat them, join them.. Apply for the highest possible karma special app you can and play your magicker or 'binder until guys like Jhunter are finally convinced that there's something wrong with the grand picture.
Until then, it's all in your head.
I'm failing to see your point on the last post. Honestly, I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, so what if 50% of the Special apps were Psi's..Did they -all- get approved? I don't think so. The amount that were IG already? So what? Some have probably died since then not to mention no one seemed to care that they were there before recently. I will not dispute that they have gone up in numbers, you're absolutely right, but not so much as to be considered jarring IMO.
Like I said in my OP, if the RP is up to par, then why care about the stat tree? If the RP is lacking, then address that issue.
Quote from: "Janna"I'm failing to see your point on the last post.
Quote from: "Sanvean, in reference to the amount of psionicists in the game"We [...] have a plethora of them on the game.
That's my point.
Quote from: "Janna"Did they -all- get approved? I don't think so.
So what? I'll be conservative and say that a "plethora" = three psionicists. I'll be conservative once more and guesstimate that only
two special applications for psionicists were approved. That means that there are
five in the game now. It may be just me, but I seriously don't see Zalanthas as a big enough playground to host five kids with magnifying glasses. It's just not fun being the ant.
Quote from: "Janna"But not so much as to be considered jarring IMO.
That's just it, Janna. I
do find it jarring. I find it jarring that certain cities are home to
several high-end guilds. Where has the harshness of armageddon gone? The gritty realism? The fight for survival? The lone ranger? I'd be willing to bet they're all hiding under a rock from that rogue, OHK loose-cannon of a mage who, quite frankly, isn't responsible enough to roleplay said magicker. That may sound harsh to you, and it may make me sound elitist, but it's all sour grapes to me.
Quote from: "Janna"Like I said in my OP, if the RP is up to par, then why care about the stat tree? If the RP is lacking, then address that issue.
I don't think it
is up to par. If only I could cite specific IC instances to further explain my case..*le sigh*
You word this excerpt as if you agree with me. I do find the level of roleplay lacking, and I
am addressing that issue. I contend that there is a direct correlation between said factors.
I think you're both right.
If you look around (or sometimes, even if you don't) you'll find people who are roleplaying wonderfully and not powergaming their classes, mundane or otherwise.
If you look around (or sometimes, even if you don't) you'll find people who are roleplaying horribly and constantly powergaming their classes, mundane (not so much) or otherwise.
One further note: the issue here isn't an argument of fact or fiction: whether or not there ARE more special-apped benders and 'gickers in the game. The issue is with the perception, true or not, and telling people 'tisn't true usually doesn't change what they think.
Are there any ideas of what we can do to help players like FJ get back into the game, without hamstringing players like Janna? I don't know that curtailing special apps for high-end guilds is the answer. Perhaps closer immteraction for those people? That puts a heavy load on an already overdriven staff. Is there a way to deal with it IC? I can't speak to this one at all, as I've had little experience with such. However, those who have, could speak up, and try to find something, even if they don't see an IC solution at first glance.
Quote from: "Janna"Like I said in my OP, if the RP is up to par, then why care about the stat tree? If the RP is lacking, then address that issue.
The fact that all these characters are plainly visible means that their RP is inherently flawed. ANY sort of magick is supposed to feared, hated, and contain a healthy dose of secrecy. Gemmed magickers in Allanak are not exempt from this doctrine.
If the people who are playing all these characters aren't capable of keeping themselves hidden and in line with the IC-stigma of the karma classes, then they don't deserve to be playing those characters.
You know, when I first started (has it been a year already? OMG), there were already a lot of magickers in the game. And complaints about a lot of magickers in the game.
I'm glad I didn't pay much attention to the complaints then, because I was new and didn't really want to see complaints at all. And now that I've been here almost a year and have seen tons and tons of magickers, and experienced tons and tons of mindbenders, I am -still- glad I didn't read the complaints, then.
Because - I have been LOVING this game, just the way it is, and the way it's been over the last year. Magicks is exactly as brutal, scary, dangerous, and creepy as the docs said it would be. The mystery of mindbenders is JUST as mysterious as the docs said it would be.
The game is exactly as advertised, even with all the magickers running around and mindbenders bending everyone's minds. It's still scary, and crazy, and spooky, and wicked, and twisted, and hardcore, and intensive.
And I'm totally digging all the RP, almost everyone I've interacted with has been stellar. Even the mindbenders and magickers.
Now please continue to carry on with your complaints. I'm late for my tea party with the local defiler.
L. Stanson
Quote from: "Lizzie"Because - I have been LOVING this game, just the way it is, and the way it's been over the last year. Magicks is exactly as brutal, scary, dangerous, and creepy as the docs said it would be. The mystery of mindbenders is JUST as mysterious as the docs said it would be.
Perhaps for you. But for those of us who have been playing for upwards of 7-8 years...well...I think the best word to describe what's happening is "stale".
It's like someone took my bottle of Blue Label and left it sitting out in the sun for a straight week.
There are way more "special" characters in the game than there were six months ago. Way more. Way way more.
Players might draw different conclusions from this, other players might draw different causes, but none of you can really be blind enough to think that the numbers are the same as they were previously.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"There are way more "special" characters in the game than there were six months ago. Way more. Way way more.
Players might draw different conclusions from this, other players might draw different causes, but none of you can really be blind enough to think that the numbers are the same as they were previously.
Thank you.
Quote from: "Malken"Welcome to the club, Forest Junkie. Now be prepared for three answers:
1) You are mad and it's not really happening, it's all in your head.
2) It's happening but it has to do with the end of time RPTs and all is going as planned.
3) Everyone wants to try races and classes they won't get to play again in the new game. (That was a good excuse, when the mud was actually planned to go down for the next one within six months.. Now we're just having an insane amount of special classes accepted and the current mud might still be open come Xmas.)
Do like me, if you can't beat them, join them.. Apply for the highest possible karma special app you can and play your magicker or 'binder until guys like Jhunter are finally convinced that there's something wrong with the grand picture.
Until then, it's all in your head.
Thank you for taking the smartassed shot at me when I wasn't involved in this discussion in the first place.
My experiences with the game are showing nothing of the sort. Until they do I won't be convinced by people spouting off about it. I'm only going on my personal experiences and I don't appreciate the rude and insulting comments directed at me for stating the facts about my personal experience. So, fuck off.
I want to cry when I think about how truly afraid and excited I used to get when I was accosted by a skary magicker/psi/sork, compared to now when all I feel is dread that he's going to off me in yet another generic death.
I've always felt that the novelty and fun of seeing these guilds, and yes, playing them, was in their rarity. That's gone now, so...
-WP doesn't know.
I think it was a phase. Right now, without getting IC, I can count the magickers my character knows personally on one hand. And I need more than three hands to count the mundanes my character knows personally. And my character has been around since..last September I think. It did seem like it was the other way around, as recent as a RL month ago. But it looks to me like things are shifting again, and it really doesn't bother me one way or another, because it's when things -stop- shifting that it gets stale.
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Quote from: "Cale_Knight"There are way more "special" characters in the game than there were six months ago. Way more. Way way more.
Players might draw different conclusions from this, other players might draw different causes, but none of you can really be blind enough to think that the numbers are the same as they were previously.
Thank you.
I don't, or didn't dispute that the numbers went up, my dispute was on whether or not it really affected the RP which is what the game is obviously about. From what FJ has posted, as well as bardbard, some of it has gone south, which is sad to me. Thankfully, I've not experienced this. The few I've played with IG have been model RP'ers in my books.
Quote from: "WarriorPoet"I want to cry when I think about how truly afraid and excited I used to get when I was accosted by a skary magicker/psi/sork, compared to now when all I feel is dread that he's going to off me in yet another generic death.
I've always felt that the novelty and fun of seeing these guilds, and yes, playing them, was in their rarity. That's gone now, so...
-WP doesn't know.
For me the novelty wore off after the first time. I don't think it has anything to do with an increase but more to do with your experience with the game. I no longer feel as excited as I once used to about exploring the gameworld because I've seen enough of it, it no longer suprises me much. I think it's a different aspect of the same problem that occurs after having played the game for quite some time. What I'm trying to get at is that it wouldn't really matter if they had increased or not.
Eventually you will experience it a few times and it won't be as intriguing anymore.
Quote from: "jhunter"
Thank you for taking the smartassed shot at me when I wasn't involved in this discussion in the first place.
My experiences with the game are showing nothing of the sort. Until they do I won't be convinced by people spouting off about it. I'm only going on my personal experiences and I don't appreciate the rude and insulting comments directed at me for stating the facts about my personal experience. So, fuck off.
There's absolutely no insulting comments directed at you, Jhunter, so chill out. All I'm saying is that you are the other side that doesn't agree with me and those who thinks it's that way now. I could have said Lizzie, because I remembered Lizzie's point of view as well, but you and I have argued about this for so long that your name came first to my mind. Where is the insult in that?
So until both sides AGREE that there is a problem, nothing will be done, is what I meant.
I've seen some SERIOUSLY jarring things in game lately.
I concur with the previous post. (the one by cale_knight)
"Stale" is a good way to put it.
It's like people are treating this game as World of Warcraft.
Malken:
If you have to intentionally -try- to bring it about for everyone, then obviously it's not a problem across the board.
There wouldn't be two sides to it if there was a problem is what I'm getting at. Everyone would be experiencing an issue with constant contact with the karma guilds, wouldn't they?
I don't understand how every character I have played in the last year hasn't encountered this issue if it's so bad. If it were that bad, then wouldn't at least -one- of my pcs had that sort of problem? Most of my pcs haven't encountered -any- magick at all and the few that did...where -magickers-.
On a note more related to the topic, my magicker pcs do their best to stay the fuck away from mundane pcs as much as they can. When they do encounter a mundane pc, it's usually the mundane that begins with the hostility and aggressive behavior that gets them into trouble. Unless they really piss off my pc or leave me with no choice, I will still try to evade or avoid them
I can't believe I'm going to type this...I agree with Jhunter. :wink:
My current character does not know a single magicker or psi at all. Not one. I'm also currently playing a regular mundane and leaving the Shiny Karma for later, if needed.
Quote from: "jhunter"I don't understand how every character I have played in the last year hasn't encountered this issue if it's so bad.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you're playing times are very erractic, and at times non-existant, therefore you aren't really in a position to truly know? Just a thought, j-baby. :wink:
I think it's a little misleading to say what your current character knows or doesn't -- everyone can either seek out or avoid magickers with a role based on smart choices.
Looking at the aggregate experiences of your PCs over the past few months may be better. How many times did they get mindbent (that you know of?) How many discussions about magick did they overhear? How many magickal items did they see/possess? How many times did they or someone close to them rely on magick for a plot? How many deaths have you recently had to a mage?
I've said this before -- I would love to see a staff crack down on the number of karma PCs in the game and on the people playing them. I doubt that will happen, but it sure would be nice.
KARMAGEDDON KARMAGEDDON KARMAGEDDON
Just to bring this up: What about karma races?
Anyone having a problem with the number of half-giants, muls, and so on?
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Quote from: "jhunter"I don't understand how every character I have played in the last year hasn't encountered this issue if it's so bad.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you're playing times are very erractic, and at times non-existant, therefore you aren't really in a position to truly know? Just a thought, j-baby. :wink:
Only the last couple months FJ. I was playing more consistently before that and people were having the same complaints and I still wasn't experiencing a problem. I have started to play more just recently and have yet to encounter a problem with it.
Quote from: "jhunter"Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Quote from: "jhunter"I don't understand how every character I have played in the last year hasn't encountered this issue if it's so bad.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you're playing times are very erractic, and at times non-existant, therefore you aren't really in a position to truly know? Just a thought, j-baby. :wink:
Only the last couple months FJ. I was playing more consistently before that and people were having the same complaints and I still wasn't experiencing a problem. I have started to play more just recently and have yet to encounter a problem with it.
I know, I was making a little joke on ya.
Like I said earlier, though: I consider you lucky.
Looking at the aggregate experiences of your PCs over the past few months may be better.
How many times did they get mindbent (that you know of?) 0 in over a year at least.
How many discussions about magick did they overhear? 2 or 3 if that in the last year for my mundane pcs.
How many magickal items did they see/possess? 0. I've only seen one magickal item (that I also possessed in my entire stint with Arm)
How many times did they or someone close to them rely on magick for a plot? Only the few magickers that I played. 0 Mundanes.
How many deaths have you recently had to a mage? 0 deaths to a mage in well over a year. The last time I had a pc die to a mage, they were also a mage. (Thanks for that one Plainsman.)
Quote from: "jhunter"Looking at the aggregate experiences of your PCs over the past few months may be better.
How many times did they get mindbent (that you know of?) 0 in over a year at least.
How many discussions about magick did they overhear? 2 or 3 if that in the last year for my mundane pcs.
How many magickal items did they see/possess? 0. I've only seen one magickal item (that I also possessed in my entire stint with Arm)
How many times did they or someone close to them rely on magick for a plot? Only the few magickers that I played. 0 Mundanes.
How many deaths have you recently had to a mage? 0 deaths to a mage in well over a year. The last time I had a pc die to a mage, they were also a mage. (Thanks for that one Plainsman.)
I'm almost exactly the same for numbers, give or take one or two here and there. Nothing very eye popping.
Quote from: "Tisiphone"Just to bring this up: What about karma races?
Anyone having a problem with the number of half-giants, muls, and so on?
I think the reason people complain more about high-karma guilds than races is that you aren't supposed to be clandestine about your race the way a Nilazi or a bender supposedly should.
After all, there's no documentation saying that all half-giants or muls or desert elves are immediately killed just for being what they are, and thus no tradition of those races having to hide themselves.
I say supposedly because everyone can have their own opinion on what's okay RP, but I'm in the crowd that thinks--for the most part--benders openly bending without even acting scared of retribution is a worse offense than too many benders.
Quote from: "Fathi"I say supposedly because everyone can have their own opinion on what's okay RP, but I'm in the crowd that thinks--for the most part--benders openly bending without even acting scared of retribution is a worse offense than too many benders.
QFTMFT.
Fathi: I agree. I was just bringing those up because I figured that, while we're addressing the one, we might as well look at the other. I really did want to know, IS there anyone out there who thinks there are too many high-karma races?
Quote from: "jhunter"Quote from: "Fathi"benders openly bending without even acting scared of retribution is a worse offense than too many benders.
QFTMFT.
Word.
Quote...benders openly bending without even acting scared of retribution is a worse offense than too many benders.
I agree. Unacceptable RP of magicker/psionicist types is far worse than a high amount of those types. Therefore, I think it's okay if there are a lot of magickers as long as they play in an acceptable manner.
Hey jhunter, I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you or anything, I was being serious when I said that I don't think the IMMs will do anything until both side agrees that there is a problem..
If you are not seeing a problem right now, I'm not even going to try and convince you otherwise, because, like I said, we've been having this fight forever about this.. But what I am seeing now is that, a year ago, maybe we were two or three shouting that, but it just seems to me that there's more and more players starting to agree that there might be a problem..
I don't know how often you play or where you play or what you prefer to play, so I'm not even going to say that you are wrong, maybe I am, which is quite possible, since no Staff members ever participate in that debate, so it's really hard to say.
Anyway, I seriously don't care anymore at this point, I'm just drifting along, hoping that the new game will come out soon so I can try it and see if its my cup of tea or not. Right now, I feel like I am a bit wasting my time and that nothing really matters. Don't give me the, "We, the players, are shaping what the next world is going to be like." BS anymore, please, I won't buy it.
You, the few karma'ified and lucky enough long lived magickers might be, not the rest of us.
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Over the course of around three months now, I've noticed not just a small amount of new high-end mages and max karma guilds -- rather, I've noticed a massive influx of said guilds. Not only are these guilds far more prevalent and visible, the players themselves flaunt their power openly and willingly, failing to even attempt to keep their identity secret. In past times, these characters would have been immediately slaughtered for such behavior.
Just to clarify, what do you mean by "high-end mages and max karma guilds"?
Do you mean psis, sorcerers and nilazis?
Or are you including Elkrosi and Drovians?
Or are you even including Krathi and Whirans?
Which is it?
Having played for a while several years ago, and then having played for a while now, I missed the transition between then and now, so I have a much more stark idea of the contrasts between the period fall/winter 2002-03, and now.
Here are a couple of observations of differences now, compared to then:
Magick is definitely more common.
Magick is definitely more talked about.
Benders are definitely WAY more common, and WAY more talked about. (Prior to this recent stretch of playing, I honestly didn't even know what benders did, or what a bender attack would look like at all. Since I have been back, my character has had contact with three distinct benders, maybe more if some of them have looked like the others.)
The number of 'secret' magickers is, to all appearances, way up.
The number of magick-related deaths, seemingly way up.
Magick is definitely a whole lot less feared, and more 'mundane' than ever, judging from the vast majority of attitudes my character has seen.
The number of open magickers has skyrocketed. I can only imagine what this says about the number of hidden ones.
For me, from the many instances my character has experienced, this results in:
Feeling like the docs do not accurately represent the game.
Feeling like the game is actually a different sort of game than the one I played years ago.
Feeling like my mundane character is useless, especially to the major plots.
Feeling like my mundane character could be offed at any time by any number of uber nonmundanes (having seen several friends go this way).
Note: These are my observations and feelings, I'm not going to argue them with you. If you don't feel this way, fine, but don't try and tell me that I don't feel the way I do or that I don't have a right to.
This has not resulted in me having less fun RPing my mundane character, but it has resulted in high levels of frustration, especially at being largely 'useless'.
I don't have an agenda to push, other than at this point saying that Arm is claiming to be one thing, while actually being quite a different thing, and I wish that would stop. We either need to admit and embrace the much, much higher level of magick, magickal tolerance, and so on and so forth, or get rid of it and go back to higher proportions of mundanes and lower proportions of nonmundanes. With open karma at the beginning of Arm2, I feel that it is going to set the tone for the game with a high level of nonmundane activity, which will hopefully at least be reflected in that version's docs.
I feel the same feeling of being useless.
Whats even worse is seeing these high-karma guilds dominating by morons who have the english skills of a 10-year old. Plus who constantly twink and use constant OOC knowledge.
Quote from: "Shiroi Tsuki"Feeling like my mundane character is useless, especially to the major plots.
Feeling like my mundane character could be offed at any time by any number of uber nonmundanes (having seen several friends go this way).
I happen to think this is spot on, and I also happen to think that they're the biggest issues we're currently facing in regards to this thread.
Quote from: "Vessol"seeing these high-karma guilds
Which guilds do you mean by "high"?
Excellent post, Shiroi.
I'm new to the game, so my opinion probably doesn't count for much, but even being new I see a major problem when I go into the Barrel and count more gemmed PCs than nongemmed. :\
Quote from: "Mood"I see a major problem when I go into the Barrel and count more gemmed PCs than nongemmed. :\
Not all gemmed are high karma by a long shot.
Maybe it's because the gemmed don't have anything better to do at a particular time (so much for driving all of the plots), so you see three or four together at the Barrel, while all of your buddies are free to go out into the wilds to hunt, mine and whatever, instead of populating the tavern. If you gathered them together and included the templars and the militia and the nobles and the aides and the retainers and the Byn and the 'rinthi and whatever, the gemmed in the Barrel would be vastly outnumbered. But no, all these other "mundanes" are off in their own multiple compounds and partitions. So all you see is a fraction of the "independents" vs. some gemmed as loose ends on a regular basis.
Quote from: "Shiroi Tsuki"Feeling like my mundane character is useless, especially to the major plots.
Sorry... but this has a lot to do with who you are, who you know, and what you know, rather than what guild your character has.
Quote from: "Only He Stands There"Quote from: "Shiroi Tsuki"Feeling like my mundane character is useless, especially to the major plots.
Sorry... but this has a lot to do with who you are, who you know, and what you know, rather than what guild your character has.
So true. I've never felt "powerless" with a pc simply because of guild.
I didn't read most of this honestly and I'd just like to mention the only/main thing I don't like about this whole thing.
I have little to no problem with people powergaming so long as they still RP when it makes sense. If you sit there and kill every animal in sight simply to get stronger, which I kind of don't like but am not going to get all uppety about, but when you run into another PC actually RP at least somewhat decently or to the best of your ability, I have no problem. The thing I don't like, probably the most, is killing someone without a single emote or even saying a single word. Even if the emote was just the killing blow, its better than nothing in my eyes. I think everyone, and I mean everyone, would enjoy the game more if we all put a decent effort to RP. I don't want to gripe too much for two reasons, 1) While it may seem like someone is RPing horribly, from behind the scenes they may be RPing their char -perfectly-. 2) I'm not the greatest RPer on the block ;)
I have absolutely nothing to add to this conversation that I haven't said previously, and/or that wouldn't give away huge quantities of IC infoz, however I will say:
I 100% agree with Cale_Knight and Shiroi Tsuki on each point.
nm
You want people to slaughter magickers for flaunting stuff? Go get people to do it. Do it yourself. Be the change.
Quote from: "spawnloser"Be the change.
Tired..of...this...phrase...nothing...can do..about it..coming..in droves they are...can't..kill enough..too..many.
Quote from: "Salt Merchant"Just to clarify, what do you mean by "high-end mages and max karma guilds"?
Do you mean psis, sorcerers and nilazis?
Or are you including Elkrosi and Drovians?
Or are you even including Krathi and Whirans?
I have a feeling you thought I was including you in my op SM. Far from it. High-end mages would be nilazi, and "max karma guilds" are just that -- sorcerors and psionicists.
High end by your definition...doesn't seem to me to be all that many. I know there are a lot of magic types around, and I would agree proportionaly more than the docs suggest, compared to non-magic PCs.
Mindbenders - I'm pretty sure of one. If there are currently more, they haven't been brought to my PC's attention (and no one brings any IC info to -my- attention as a player, thank goodness!)
Nilazis - I'm sure of one, but I suspect it's an NPC, and not a PC. A second, currently, might be in the scope of "people my PC knows about."
Sorcerers - A few. One I'm very sure is an NPC. Currently, two other living to my PC's knowledge or "rumor-gathering experience." So that would make three total, including an NPC.
Note that to my knowledge, my PC has only interacted directly with -one- of these other PCs. And has only had first-hand experience witnessing the existence of -one- of the NPCs. Considering my PC is long-lived, isn't a town-locked character who gets out plenty, and knows lots of people, I'd say that's not too bad. Also this is the "current" up-to-the-minute count. There were more last week. And even more a month ago. If there are new ones coming out of the woodwork, I haven't heard in-game, and I don't use instant messaging on purpose to prevent people from spoiling it for me out of game. If there are others around that have been around, my PC hasn't heard of them. She could be drinking tea with them every day for all she knows, but she is unaware that they're anything other than what they present themselves to be. I, as a player, am blissfully ignorant of it as well :)
There are also certain portions of the gameworld (speaking geographically here) that are dominated by nilazi/psi/sorcs specifically, and those that aren't. This could be another source of the differing experience of several people.
I could rattle off a list of names of places that, if you wandered into, you'd be accosted by a high-powered ostentatious mage, or a group of them, within minutes (less during prime-time). On the flip side, I could give you another list where you'd see plenty of mundanes, but not very many 'gickers (or at least, -I- haven't seen them there. They could be hiding around the corner).
And then, of course, if you want to meet no one, there are places in the game for that, too.
Quote from: "spawnloser"You want people to slaughter magickers for flaunting stuff? Go get people to do it. Do it yourself. Be the change.
I agree with SL on this. Magickers are more bold and open lately because they are becoming much more accepted and tolerated instead of being shunned and hated. And sure, some people may have IC reasons for being tolerant and accepting of those filthy finger wagglers, but for the most part, if you want them to change, change yourself. Pick a fight with one. Murder one. Steal from one. Spread a rumor about one. Etc
And the sekrit ones...how sekrit can they be if you know about them?
As for me, I absolutely love Arm's magick system. It's easily one of my favorite parts of the game. And I really get a kick out of seeing more people getting the chance to experience it and the depth that is there. Just the other day, ICly I learned that a magicker PC had learned something that I personally have known for years and take for granted but to them, it was new and awesome. I was really happy that they got to experience it before Arm v1 is gone. I admit, I'm a card carrying member of the Magick Lovers of Allanak Association. Love em both, always have. Only thing I loved more...was the Conclave.
That said, I've played my fair share of mundanes, including the most mundane weak guild possible, the merchant. I can appreciate someone feeling a bit useless as a mundane, and as someone I respect once told me...sometimes all that is needed is a, "Gee I can see how that would suck, I'm sorry". rather than trying to find a fix for the problem. So Cale_Knight, Shiroi Tsuki, GimmyBear and anyone else...I appreciate your viewpoint. I can see how that would suck. I'm sorry.
Wow, FE, you just gave me a great idea.
Watch the 'nakki rumour boards for more...
Exposure to supernatural characters will depend heavily on your playtime, style and area. If you're the off-peak spice sifter who never leaves Red Storm, you won't see much (of anything). If you're the newly-hired Kadius crafter who rarely leaves the compound, chances are you won't experience a whole lot of imposing magickers and probing mindworms. However, if you live in a lawless area with any kind of population, you're almost guaranteed near-daily encounters of one kind or another. The Labyrinth, the Tablelands, the grasslands, Under-Tuluk - you're going to see magick unless you close your eyes. One could argue that unwanted exposure to the non-mundane is to be expected in such places, but it's undeniable that lately this has far exceeded what the documentation states and, apparently, what a majority of the playerbase is content with.
Likewise, if you're in a clan that leaves the city often, or that deals with law enforcement, you're going to be knee-deep in plots and encounters that are almost exclusively based around, and run by, magickers or psionicists. How many serious, world-affecting plots are going on at the moment where non-mundane entities are not the antagonists, driving force or main participants? Ask any templar or militia soldier, any sergeant of a clan, any noble, any crime boss. There's so much magick-related going on that there's no time for mundane activities.
I know all too well the feeling of being a "useless mundane". Even as a very powerful fighter working for a clan that might normally benefit greatly from such, I found myself with nothing to do whatsoever. Again and again I was left out of activities, jobs, missions - all because I didn't have spells or special psionic powers. I probably got the extreme end of the stick, given this specific clan's nature, but it's not that different for most other players. If you're mundane, being involved in a Big Plot (tm) will often mean swift, unavoidable death. There are exceptions, naturally, but the general impression that many of us have is that there's no longer room for mundanes as anything other than social filling. If you want to "change the world" as the staff so vehemently put it when they announced the end of the current game, you're either going to be a magicker or psionicist, or one of the select few mundanes who are lucky, dedicated or code-knowledgable enough to survive long enough to matter.
Yeah, you can avoid much of the magick if you really try. It usually means leaving yourself out of many opportunities for interesting roleplay, and still, it will eventually come to you no matter how hard you try not to get involved. To anyone who claims to not have noticed any difference in the recent state of the game, I'm calling bullshit or freakish luck. It's not 90% of the playerbase seeing things.
I should clarify, mostly because of Hek's post. I've definitely seen a shift. No doubt about it. But, this shift has -enhanced- my gaming experience, rather than hindering it. Chasing after "magicker of the day" or investigating "this week's favorite mindbender episode" is what gives me SO much stuff to do. Between mindbenders, magickers, and mundane non-magick-non-psi raiders, I'm rarely bored - and in fact, actually look forward to the moments when I -am- bored, because it gives me a chance to catch my PC up on the more "administrative" tasks of her clan.
Personally I am absolutely loving all these "freaks" running around the world. For me, it isn't a problem at all. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring or oblivious to the fact that magicks (in general) are more prevalent than when I first started. It just means, that it IS more prevalent, and that I'm getting a kick out of all the myriad of plotlines involved in dealing with the prevalence.
I have to agree with FJ on this one. I have lost the thrill of the game for quite some time now mainly because I see PC after PC with the same personality and traits played by the same person with just a diffrent set of skills doing what they did with their previous characters and doing whatever they can do hang out with a certain PC that they once was hanging with.
This is half random I guess but I felt like mentioning it.
When I came back from my hiatus I didn't check the GDB (blasphemy right?) and didn't even know ARM v1 was going to be replaced soon. So when my next 4 chars all ran into magickers, some dying because of said magickers, I kinda started to get scared/aggravated. I am in love with mundane chars personally. The Magick system is awesome imo, but I personally feel weird playing a magicker especially if I get said magicker strong. My personal pet peeve with magick is unless you do a certain thing, which I'm not going to mention, there's basically little to no room to RP with those you plan on slaughtering if you are that kind of magicker. Though there are always exceptions, with my experiences there either wasn't a way to RP without going to extreme measures or the chance for RP was so small it wouldn't have made much of a difference either way (though I do enjoy at least one emote or nasty phrase said at me before I'm killed to give my death some meaning)
What makes me sad, Forest Junkie, is that unless those who thinks like we do starts quitting the game, I have a feeling that nothing will change..
I mean, honestly, if you were a Staff member, would you take all of this complaining seriously when you still hit 45-50 players peak time a night?
The problem is that most of us are so addicted to Armageddon and we don't know any other games like this one that no matter how bad our precious Armageddon gets, we are still willing to give it a chance hoping that the next day will be slightly better.. And we keep hoping, and we keep hoping.. A year later, we are still complaining about the same thing.
So, until some of us who are really tired of it all and really feel like we aren't having fun anymore and it's all very stale quit for real, and by real, I mean not coming back everytime someone PMs you or coming back each time a Staff members promise us amazing exciting RPTs, then nothing will change.
Hey, like Spawnloser said, be the change you want to be, and if the change isn't coming, then maybe realize that it won't come until something drastic starts happening and those who are jaded start leaving for real instead of constantly fighting it yet logging still five to ten hours a day?
Just a thought.. It's a sad one, but I still think it's something that needs to happen before Staff members start taking this complaining seriously..
I don't think a few people threatening to leave over it is going to change anything. In fact, I'm positive it won't.
As far as being the change: Spawnloser has it right. At one point I was really sick of desert elves constantly raiding -every- outdoor pc I had. So, I started a pc that paid people for elf ears and hunted them himself. I noticed the numbers of raiding d-elves dropped drastically during that pc's lifetime. So no matter how aggravated you might be with something, there is -always- the possibility of doing something about it.
You think there are too many magickers? Hire up some good solid rangers (who are IMO, the best mundane magicker slayers in a group)or even *gasp* a magicker or two to hunt down others.
Also, I'm sure the Tuluki would be more than happy to assist you in such endeavors.
:wink:
QuoteYou want people to slaughter magickers for flaunting stuff? Go get people to do it. Do it yourself. Be the change.
Some people are pursuing goals like this ICly.
Quote from: "jhunter"I don't think a few people threatening to leave over it is going to change anything. In fact, I'm positive it won't.
It's not a threat, it's reality.. How is that helping that you say you dislike how things are with the game and you don't have any fun on it anymore for a whole year yet you still play it? (That's me, not FJ)
Be the change you want to be is the dumbest catchphrase I've heard on Armageddon in so long.. You can kill as many magickers as you want and notice, or ignore as many of them as you want, but if they just keep accepting them via special app and karma and they just keep pouring back it and you are the jerk because you're not friendly with the gemmed ones while everyone else is at the bar and hates you for picking on them, how is being the change you want to be helpful except for the fact that you are just digging a bigger hole around yourself?
Quote from: "Malken"
Be the change you want to be is the dumbest catchphrase I've heard on Armageddon in so long.. You can kill as many magickers as you want and notice, or ignore as many of them as you want, but if they just keep accepting them via special app and karma and they just keep pouring back it and you are the jerk because you're not friendly with the gemmed ones while everyone else, how is being the change you want to be helpful?
No, I'm telling you it's not. If you can maintain and keep things going long enough ICly, more and more of them will tire of being constantly hunted and move on to other things. It happened in the d-elf situation I posted about above. Or at least, they started avoiding raiding as heavily as they used to and staying away from non-tribals more.
What I'm saying is that even if some of them do remake mage pcs, they will be less open with them and more careful about contact with mundanes later on. I'm not honestly sure which it was but I know contact with them dropped off alot either way and the raiding slowed -way- down if it was still being conducted by them at all.
Edit: It's only the "dumbest catch phrase" if you don't believe you can bring about changes in the gameworld. If that's what you believe, then it wouldn't matter if there were a hundred magickers or one, you'd still feel useless.
I was actually thinking the same thing as Malken. If you were to slaughter every Magicker you came across, there is no stopping the player of that magicker from making another one, or someone else who died to something else making a magicker, so in the end the number of magickers may not decrease at all or very insignificantly.
Edit: Left this out, with the way some people are this could actually worsen the problem. With Magickers feeling 'enraged' they could go into hiding for a little while and you'll think the problem is solved till a gang of 10 insanely strong magickers travel -everywhere- together, kill anyone they come across.
Since I used to have "be the change..." as part of my sig, I want to throw in two cents here.
In this situation, I don't think "be the change" means that if you think there are two many supernaturals, kill them all. Instead, I tend to think it means to fill in what you think is missing from the gameworld.
If you think there isn't enough hatred of magick, play a character that provides it. If you don't like the way people are playing certain karma roles, go out and do it the right way. If you think there are too few mundanes, play a mundane. If so many people think we need more mundanes, and they all started playing one, then problem solved, right?
Quote from: "flurry"If so many people think we need more mundanes, and they all started playing one, then problem solved, right?
Wrong. I am sure that most complaints about magickers come from the players who actually try to play mundanes once in while, hence they see the problem. I don't see what is solved by their pathetic attempts, because at the same time more players with staff's blessing, support and approval prove the point that rocket launcher is better weapon than teaspoon.
Spawnloser, darling, if you are such a fucking genious and disagree with people who say that it's impossible to be mundane change to Zalanthas in the current setting, don't you think that it's your task to prove them wrong, not theirs?
I just wanted to post in here, since I think it syncs nicely with the above post:
If you see someone playing out the documented prejudices (against 'gickers/psi/elves/breeds/mutants/whatever), please, DON'T look at them like they have three heads. Unless, that is, they do.
Quote from: "flurry"If so many people think we need more mundanes, and they all started playing one, then problem solved, right?
Wow.
For the record, I have never played a non-mundane character and I doubt I will before the game ends.
Quote from: "jhunter"No, I'm telling you it's not. If you can maintain and keep things going long enough ICly, more and more of them will tire of being constantly hunted and move on to other things. It happened in the d-elf situation I posted about above. Or at least, they started avoiding raiding as heavily as they used to and staying away from non-tribals more.
Or maybe it was one of those cyclical things. The desert elves lost an important leader or two for unrelated reasons, and suddenly things were less fun and less organized, and so the players drifted away. How can you tell?
Quote from: "flurry"If you don't like the way people are playing certain karma roles, go out and do it the right way.
The problem is that apparently playing a mage "the right way" involves living like a hermit and never being visible, whether you're gemmed or not.
Here was the life experience of a gemmed that was played "the right way":
Quote from: "Delirium"
My experience as a gemmed went something like this:
- Get gemmed, work out a schedule of practice and downtime
- Meet a couple other gemmed mages. Awesome.
- Other mages rarely log in. Get bullied around by a templar.
- Get bored of the routine of grebbing, casting, and being utterly ignored by mundane PCs. Being snubbed ICly is fine, having your existance entirely unacknowledged is hell.
- Start seeking a job. Told to get lost by templar.
- Get offered a job by noble. Ponder it, then get told they don't want <my mage class>. Fark.
- Meet a criminal that's actually willing to socialize with me! Yay!
- Fuck around with some spells and stumble on Something Cool (tm).
- Get told that succeeding at Something Cool (tm) is actually a bug. Oops.
- Suffer IC consequences of trying to fuck around with Something Cool (tm) that briefly renews my enjoyment of the character.
- Criminal guy never logs in or is dead. Damn.
- Get so incredibly bored and starved for interaction that I decide my character is going to strike out for sandier pastures due to IC consequences of Something Cool (tm).
- Driven out of the city by lack of interaction and options, it doesn't take me log to meet my fate at the hands of NPC #98135.
- Say "Damn, that sucked" and roll up a mundane character.
- Start having fun again.
Quote from: "Malken"and you are the jerk because you're not friendly with the gemmed ones while everyone else is at the bar and hates you for picking on them,
This has been the hardest thing for me to accept. WHY should being part of the "bully crowd" be so unaccepted in a place like Zalanthas? Prejudice and bias and extremes are supposed to be part of the mindset... but it's damned hard to pull off when you do what -should- be the norm (ie sneer at or ignore the gemmer at the bar instead of being their chat buddy) and everyone gives you a dirty look or a ration of shit. And then said gemmer (who is uber-powerful, and treated by the Templarate as a dangerous but well-taken-care-of guard dog) retaliates. And too bad, so sad... you're dead.
For me personally, it's not so much the -amount- of magickers... it's the acceptance of them by the populace, and the blatant "I can fry you with a look so you'd better not look at me funny" attitude. I always thought the social stigmas associated with magick users was the balance to their power, but this seems to have slowly eroded in the year and a half I've been playing. :(
Quote from: "Salt Merchant"Quote from: "jhunter"No, I'm telling you it's not. If you can maintain and keep things going long enough ICly, more and more of them will tire of being constantly hunted and move on to other things. It happened in the d-elf situation I posted about above. Or at least, they started avoiding raiding as heavily as they used to and staying away from non-tribals more.
Or maybe it was one of those cyclical things. The desert elves lost an important leader or two, and suddenly things were less fun and less organized, and so the players drifted away. How can you tell?
No way of knowing for certain. Is it pure coincidence that when I actively pursued such a change came about? I don't think it was entirely. Besides, -someone- may have done away with those pcs.
I know I should stay out of this, but...like a moth to the flame...
Those of you who are saying, "Yeah I know a lot of non-mundanes, like five"...and those who are saying, "I don't know any"...Cool. I'm glad your game is so mundane right now, if that's what you want. My current game experience is markedly different.
I currently know, or know of, ICly, approximately 40 non-mundane PCs in game. As in, I can put names and/or faces together with guilds, I know their basic locational or organizational affiliation, and I roughly know what they can do. I interact with about half of them on a regular basis.
About a third of those 40 are gemmers, the rest are psionicists, sorcerors, or rogue magickers of various flavors.
I would say that about 10 to 15 of these non-mundanes are at the "frighteningly powerful" range.
I have, myself, played a non-mundane for approximately two weeks of the last 14 months I've spent on ARM. So as far as "play a mundane if you want to see more mundanes in game," thanks, I do that. I also put a fair amount of effort into making the game fun for the mundanes around me.
Useless? Yeah, I'm pretty much down with that feeling. Part of me is past caring. I'm not blaming the non-mundanes for not using me in their plots; in their defense, often it's because they don't want to get my character killed. And I know they use me when they can.
Beyond that, I'm just letting the high-magick stormclouds roll overhead and trying to avoid getting stomped on by the non-mundane giants on -their- playground. The non-mundanes own ARM now.
Quote from: "Kiri"Quote from: "Malken"and you are the jerk because you're not friendly with the gemmed ones while everyone else is at the bar and hates you for picking on them,
This has been the hardest thing for me to accept. WHY should being part of the "bully crowd" be so unaccepted in a place like Zalanthas? Prejudice and bias and extremes are supposed to be part of the mindset... but it's damned hard to pull off when you do what -should- be the norm (ie sneer at or ignore the gemmer at the bar instead of being their chat buddy) and everyone gives you a dirty look or a ration of shit. And then said gemmer (who is uber-powerful, and treated by the Templarate as a dangerous but well-taken-care-of guard dog) retaliates. And too bad, so sad... you're dead.
For me personally, it's not so much the -amount- of magickers... it's the acceptance of them by the populace, and the blatant "I can fry you with a look so you'd better not look at me funny" attitude. I always thought the social stigmas associated with magick users was the balance to their power, but this seems to have slowly eroded in the year and a half I've been playing. :(
There was also the exact opposite problem before of mundanes showing -zero- fear of a magicker. Standing there and insulting someone who carries a gun when all you have is a toothpick isn't exactly smart or conducive to living very long. There is nothing wrong with showing disdain for magickers and things of magick. There is something wrong with walking up and spitting in their face and being openly stupid about it.
QuoteI currently know, or know of, ICly, approximately 40 non-mundane PCs in game.
Unless a staff-member can confirm this I don't believe it for a second. That would mean well over half of the people playing the game are playing non-mundanes, and honestly...the notion is pretty absurd.
I had a PC who went on this massive rant about people being all buddy buddy with magickers. Because he had been out of contact for civilization for a while and when he came back he was surprised at all the talk about magickers and people actually talking -to- magickers. Anyone he knew of that even looked at a magicker without calling in the calvary he shunned completely.
I can understand some of acceptance of gemmed magickers in nak solely because if you were -best- friends with someone who suddenly became a magicker, after a while you get used to it.
I equate magickers to homosexuals irl as an example for one reason (please don't get mad either). If you, found out your best friend was a homosexual you would, at the least, a bit shaken up especially if it came as a complete surprise to you. But would you really stop being their friend? Or would you try to just move past it?
After a while of constant interaction with magickers a person might decide 'they are just like me, but with some neat tricks' or 'they are scum to be avoided as always, I don't care if they think we can be friends cause we can't'.
If someone gave your magicker friend an evil glare I don't see the problem with you getting uppety and defending them for being 'just a little different but still a good person' but I don't see the whole tavern going 'Yea! Back off asshole!'
"Be the change, kill the magickers" - so easy to say and so hard to do. Remember that these complaints come almost exclusively from players of mundane characters. Killing a magicker is, for most, a laughable proposal.
Quote from: "jhunter"QuoteI currently know, or know of, ICly, approximately 40 non-mundane PCs in game.
Unless a staff-member can confirm this I don't believe it for a second. That would mean well over half of the people playing the game are playing non-mundanes, and honestly...the notion is pretty absurd.
There are 200+ players logging in every week, so 40 characters doesn't constitute half of the playerbase. Yeah, it's at least a good solid 20%, though.
You can choose to believe it or not, but I keep extensive character files, and I have the data.
You can't compare d-elves with magickers, d-elves are ISO clans with a minimum of players there at a time, if you kill one or two active players, the rest of them usually start getting really bored and either retire or stop logging on, until some major character pops in again and start luring them back in.
Magickers, you always have many of them, be they hidden ones or gemmed ones, they can always find someone to interact with, the hidden ones usually (At least I hope they do) interact with you in public taverns, you just don't know they are magickers (Or, at least, if you try a little hard to stick to your IC ways, you pretend you don't know that they are) .. The gemmed ones, well, as I said, they don't get much flak for being magickers to begin with, they have their own little council and their own little area and if they want, they have their own mundane buddies and lovers to go with it.
Jhunter, you have to agree that, let's say I'm playing a Whiran, first, I'm learning all of the spells, the areas I can hide in, what makes me strong and what makes me weak.. If someone finally kills me, chances are I'll just come back as another Whiran, but this time I'll know which spells to avoid and which spells to focus on, where to go and hide, who to seek out for protection, etc.. Now add to this our average players' experience of 3-7 years and you know what happens..
I don't know if Delirium was being sarcastic or not in her post, but I'm seriously doubting that it is the way it currently is for magickers how she's described it, even though it SHOULD BE THAT WAY, final.
Then I learned that gemmed ones can just be cool and safe in their little Temple until they decide that they are strong enough and just skip out of town and go cause trouble outside? *groan* This just adds to me being even more jaded than ever..
I'll be the change you want me to be or whatever when the Staff also becomes the change it should be. Put a stop to the flood of special apps, stop accepting special apps while living characters are still in the game, start forcing more players to play mundane roles even if they scream that they'll quit if they don't get to play magickers all the time and then I'll be that change, until then, I'm just swimming against the current and I'm really getting tired of it, I certainly don't have any energy left to be that change... If others can be, then good for them, I hope they'll make it nice and the way it should be for me, but for now, I'm happy to play with the same 2-3 players and not minding the rest of the world until my character dies then I can see more clearly what to do.
And I'd like to thank everyone that has been PMing me offering me mundane roles and ideas, but that is not my point at all, I am currently playing a mundane, do I feel useless? Totally. Do I think I'll change the world and my actions will build the new one? Not at all.
Do I think I'd stand a better chance to change the world and shape it if I were to play my whiran sitting as my accepted special app once my mundane dies? Probably.
Gimfalisette's assertion seems fairly accurate to me.
Gimfalisette's post is right. I can think of 35 non-mundane pcs offhand that I know icly were alive yesterday.
Meh. As I have watched you folks play, I've come to one conclusion. People go to where the PC leaders are. Players want to be involved and have stuff happen to their character. Leaders make that happen. If we have the best leaders playing mundane roles, we see more mundanes. If those leaders play delfs, we see more delfs. And so forth. If you want more mundanes, play a mundane and give others a -reason- to follow you.
I also hear the comment that 'we aren't powerful enough to take down xyz group'. This may very well be, on a one-on-one basis. Truthfully, it's how it should be, but remember there is strength in numbers, even if you have to create strange alliances to get things done. Everyone dies eventually. Even the most powerful will see the mantis head in time.
Quote from: "Belenos"Players want to be involved and have stuff happen to their character. Leaders make that happen. If we have the best leaders playing mundane roles, we see more mundanes. If those leaders play delfs, we see more delfs. And so forth. If you want more mundanes, play a mundane and give others a -reason- to follow you.
I don't think anyone disagrees with you, Belenos.. What we are saying is that it doesn't matter how much we do this, that's only half of the battle.. The other half is making sure that, you, the Imms, keep making sure that the number of non-mundane PCs allowed in is as balanced as it should be, as per the docs, and fairly distributed in the world.
If I try hard to keep the magickers in check and making sure to give them hell and reduce their numbers yet the other side is constantly allowing them in, can't you see why at some point we just throw up our arms in the air and just say screw it and give up?
I just want the Staff to honestly tell me, once and for all, that the number of non-mundanes we are seeing currently in game is as it should be, that this is the way you want it to be and that what we see as a huge amount of them is just us mortals not seeing what you guys see, then I promise you and everyone else that I will never fight this battle again and just let it go, but until someone steps in and tells us that the numbers are just fine the way they are, this will just keep going on..
I remember on the old boards where you would see this all the time...
DEAL.
I think that this is the right approach.
Uhm, I think that Belenos had your questions answered, Malken.
Everything is fine, it's just you. You fail to create suitable background for magickers to play on.
Quote from: "Dan"DEAL.
QFT, man, QFT. I was looking for a way to express how I felt, and I guess I don't have to be so eloquent about it. <3
QuoteI also hear the comment that 'we aren't powerful enough to take down xyz group'. This may very well be, on a one-on-one basis. Truthfully, it's how it should be, but remember there is strength in numbers, even if you have to create strange alliances to get things done. Everyone dies eventually. Even the most powerful will see the mantis head in time.
Belenos, I love you...
Quote from: "Salt Merchant"Quote from: "flurry"If you don't like the way people are playing certain karma roles, go out and do it the right way.
The problem is that apparently playing a mage "the right way" involves living like a hermit and never being visible, whether you're gemmed or not.
Here was the life experience of a gemmed that was played "the right way":
Quote from: "Delirium"
My experience as a gemmed went something like this:
<snip>
Just to clarify, when I said "do it the right way", I didn't mean to imply there is just one right way. I just meant that if you think some people are playing something "wrong", then go out and do it the way that
you think it should be done.
You may think that playing a magicker correctly means being a hermit and never being visible. Great! You may or may not find that enjoyable, but if you think that's the right way to do it, so be it. I may have a completely different idea. As long as we're both conforming to the documentation, there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm not sure what the point of including the anecdote is, though. Delirium may not have enjoyed playing a gemmed magicker and I'm sure she's not the only one. Other people love it. Everyone's got their own preferences and perspectives.
For the record, playing a secret magicker doesn't (necessarily) mean being a hermit.
Playing a secret magicker means only casting and having spellups on when no one is around to see you. I think it's a great challenge to play a magicker who is out in the public and has a certain persona, while hiding their magick secret in the closet, so to speak.
Quote from: "Malken"I just want the Staff to honestly tell me, once and for all, that the number of non-mundanes we are seeing currently in game is as it should be, that this is the way you want it to be and that what we see as a huge amount of them is just us mortals not seeing what you guys see, then I promise you and everyone else that I will never fight this battle again and just let it go, but until someone steps in and tells us that the numbers are just fine the way they are, this will just keep going on..
This has already been said, on several threads that are now locked, after spiraling out of control. If you'd like, I can try to dig one up. However, this was also in the OP's gripe.
Quote from: "Belenos"Meh. As I have watched you folks play, I've come to one conclusion. People go to where the PC leaders are. Players want to be involved and have stuff happen to their character. Leaders make that happen. If we have the best leaders playing mundane roles, we see more mundanes. If those leaders play delfs, we see more delfs. And so forth. If you want more mundanes, play a mundane and give others a -reason- to follow you.
You know, as one of those mundane PC leaders I'm perfectly willing to accept that I do a shitty job of it, but I will in no way accept that I'm the reason every second or third character these days is a magicker of some kind.
Meh, indeed.
Quote from: "Malken"I just want the Staff to honestly tell me, once and for all, that the number of non-mundanes we are seeing currently in game is as it should be, that this is the way you want it to be and that what we see as a huge amount of them is just us mortals not seeing what you guys see, then I promise you and everyone else that I will never fight this battle again and just let it go, but until someone steps in and tells us that the numbers are just fine the way they are, this will just keep going on..
It seems a bit arrogant to think you have some personal entitlement to an accounting and justification for how the mud is being run. A bit of trust and faith would go a long way on this. The Staff must surely know what the relative numbers are. They must know what the current major plots are. Therefore it can be safely concluded that either a) they endorse the current numbers or b) they are making appropriate adjustments.
The only problem I see currently is that there a number of players who are unhappy with the game and it saddens me that several people who have no doubt contributed a lot to the game over the years are turning away from it. Those who feel so disenchanted seem to be people who have played for a very long time and have a firm mindset about how the game should be and/or those who feel frustrated because they want to make their own mark on the world. I guess I am lucky, with only three total years played, to be a relative newbie and one who has never played a single magicker because, for me, the world, its secrets, its magick is still as exciting as it was when I first started.
There is no way to restore that sense of wonder once it has been lost. Perhaps though, for those of you who have already seen it all and done it all, the answer might lie in letting go of your notions of how the world ought to be and just jump on for the ride as the world changes. For it -is- changing. Go with the flow. You might just find yourself caught up in the excitement if you don't resist it.
For those of you who want to have your characters change the world, dunno what to say. I've never been burdened, as a player, with having personal ambitions for my characters. There have been, however, suggestions made by knowledgeable people for ways to change things. The first starting point ought to be joining into the world
as it is rather than bemoaning its wrongness and then, from inside and as a part of it, effecting your changes.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"You know, as one of those mundane PC leaders I'm perfectly willing to accept that I do a shitty job of it, but I will in no way accept that I'm the reason every second or third character these days is a magicker of some kind.
Meh, indeed.
Don't take what is said as a negative on anyone's play. It has no bearing on your quality of play. Generally the leaders that people flock around are those people that seem to live online 24/7. Not all of us have that choice.
You play a fine leader. You can't help is another leader type is attracting a large group of players because they have tons of time to devote to play and you don't.
One point to add to this is that the dynamics are complicated. Often these discussions are quite black and white and full of a lot of misleading 'facts'. My point is that the dynamics of whatever trend is popular at any given time follows where the hotbeds of activities are at any given time. What is hot and popular today can be dead as a doornail tomorrow.
I don't see where I'm being arrogant, Medena, unless you think that politely asking the Staff about what is going on with something I see as a growing problem is arrogance, then I guess I am being arrogant.. I'm not being rude or snarky about it, though, so I'm hoping for just as polite a reply, no DEAL or that sort of answer. (How about I just go in your Biography Request thread and tell you to just DEAL with it, Only He Stands Here?)
And I'm not asking for speculations from players either.. You know just as much as I do if the answer is either "a) they endorse the current numbers or b) they are making appropriate adjustments." like you've said so yourself.. All I want to know is if the answer is A or B! That's all.
I have trust in the Staff members, but faith about what? Do I have faith that they are going with the way things were like when I first started playing the game? I guess I don't since I'm questioning it all, and I have a feeling that I am not alone doing this.. Do I have faith that they can pull it back in the right direction if it is indeed a problem? Of course I do, else I would have been gone long ago.
I'd be glad if someone could refer me to the threads where the Staff actually said that they were happy with the current numbers, I can't seem to find them myself..
Quote from: "Malken"I'd be glad if someone could refer me to the threads where the Staff actually said that they were happy with the current numbers, I can't seem to find them myself..
I'm going to be honest, you probably will never get the full answer you are looking for. Mostly because it is not really appropriate for the staff to openly state opinions of this nature. I can tell you that we do take into account what the given status of the world is when it comes to running plots, approving special applications, or adjusting various things like skills, availability of certain goods, etc. In fact a question along this line came up on the immcom just two minutes ago. Like I stated above, there is no black and white here, nor any easy answers, just layers and layers of grey. There is a constant dialog going on with the staff as to how things are structured. There always will be.
So basically, lets boil it down to a simple, one line-answer. :P
Trust the staff.
Quote from: "Belenos"There is a constant dialog going on with the staff as to how things are structured. There always will be.
You know, I had hoped for a definitive statement/comment from staff, but this statement here does make me feel somewhat better about the situation. I'm just glad to know that you are always conferring with one another about the current status of a dynamic world. Thanks for that, at least.
Quote from: "flurry"Just to clarify, when I said "do it the right way", I didn't mean to imply there is just one right way. I just meant that if you think some people are playing something "wrong", then go out and do it the way that you think it should be done.
"Wrong" seems to equate to "visible" and "present" to a lot of people posting about the gemmed, so only "invisible" and "absent" are left.
Quote from: "Salt Merchant"Quote from: "flurry"Just to clarify, when I said "do it the right way", I didn't mean to imply there is just one right way. I just meant that if you think some people are playing something "wrong", then go out and do it the way that you think it should be done.
"Wrong" seems to equate to "visible" and "present" to a lot of people posting about the gemmed, so only "invisible" and "absent" are left.
I doubt flurry meant "visible" and "present". I'm sure they rather meant "brash" and "trigger-happy". Or rather, that's how
I view some of the current special application pc's in the game.
Lemme start out by saying that, like Cale Knight, I've never played a non-mundane and I doubt I will before the game ends. I'm also going to second everything he and Gimf said and agree with it totally. I don't keep character files like she does, and the figure nevertheless seems pretty correct.
Someone said something about feeling powerless. -I- feel powerless OOCly sometimes nowadays, more than I've ever felt before with the same character, despite any IC power/standing, just because I won't be able to ever cast a spell or protect myself against really any mage who decides he wants to ace my char with a lightning strike or something.
I don't even know if its the gemmed/rogue mages/sorcs/psions/nilazisetc that bothers me so much. It's the number of them combined that all seem to be buddy buddy with each other. This is ZALANTHAS, people. I want to see more strife in between the mages. Especially between some certain types of mages, defilers/preservers, and psions. I believe all those classes have antithesis's that I've seen them work together with in game.
And it seems that the non-mundanes aren't just non-mundanes. It's that they're super non-mundanes. And one rogue or evil super non-mundane can kill off a lot of lower non-mundanes. I've seen it happen, and this seems to compound the problem, because now -everyone- wants to be super powerful just to be able to contend with each other.
A few notes here:
1) Please watch your behavior on this board. Some of you are coming perilously close to attacking the poster rather than disagreeing with their opinion.
2) Please be a little less forthcoming about current IC info.
3) I can tell you that high-karma special apps are getting rejected at a tremendous rate so that we can preserve the ratio of mundane to non-mundanes.
A derail of my own thread, but I just wanted to make a side-comment:
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"I keep extensive character files, and I have the data.
This makes me go lol inside.
I didn't know people actually did this.
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"A derail of my own thread, but I just wanted to make a side-comment:
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"I keep extensive character files, and I have the data.
This makes me go lol inside.
I didn't know people actually did this.
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"I keep extensive character files, and I have the data.
Figures.
Job hazard. I've been working as a data analyst / database admin for like...12 years now or something. Organizing information is second nature. I keep everything I know about my character, everything my -character- knows, everyone my character knows and everything I know about them, and all the things my character needs to be doing in game organized in a very handy file system.
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"Job hazard. I've been working as a data analyst / database admin for like...12 years now or something. Organizing information is second nature. I keep everything I know about my character, everything my -character- knows, everyone my character knows and everything I know about them, and all the things my character needs to be doing in game organized in a very handy file system.
Do your characters forget things, or do they just have a well-developed photographic memory?
Quote from: "Malken"I just want the Staff to honestly tell me, once and for all, that the number of non-mundanes we are seeing currently in game is as it should be, that this is the way you want it to be and that what we see as a huge amount of them is just us mortals not seeing what you guys see, then I promise you and everyone else that I will never fight this battle again and just let it go, but until someone steps in and tells us that the numbers are just fine the way they are, this will just keep going on..
I don't know if this is exactly what you're looking for, but
Quote from: "Adhira, earlier this month,"
As has been pointed out some of the changes that are being observed in the game are due to IC happenings and are consequences and reflections of that.
<snip>
However, the staff do not consider that the game is 'broken' or out of sync. Hopefully there are enough places, people, rp and stories going on out there that most folks can find something to amuse and entertain themselves and their characters with, whatever their preferences.
Quote from: "Salt Merchant"Quote from: "flurry"Just to clarify, when I said "do it the right way", I didn't mean to imply there is just one right way. I just meant that if you think some people are playing something "wrong", then go out and do it the way that you think it should be done.
"Wrong" seems to equate to "visible" and "present" to a lot of people posting about the gemmed, so only "invisible" and "absent" are left.
To them, perhaps. But, to paraphrase the Dude, that's just, like, their opinion, man. :wink:
More seriously, you can't please everyone.
I just wish there were more bad asses IG. Zalanthas seems to be losing its harshness imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMpsnDxNbqQ
Quote from: "Nile"I just wish there were more bad asses IG. Zalanthas seems to be losing its harshness imo.
I agree to some extent.
Quote from: "Nile"I just wish there were more bad asses IG. Zalanthas seems to be losing its harshness imo.
QFT. More mundane badasses, especially. Sure, I've seen mages who'll kill you as soon as look at you, but I've seen 30-day warriors roll over and take someone's smartmouthing.
C'mon. More brawls, more fights, more ramming of the swords up the asses.
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"The non-mundanes own ARM now.
I'd like to amend this statement. The non-mundanes have
always owned ARM. Sorceror-kings and all that. The staff have even stated that, in the grand history of Zalanthas, the development of siege weapons was halted because magick did it better, and every side of any conflict used it. The average character will find it easier to find a magicker than to actually work with explosives. I mean, is it even possible to make primitive land mines?
So we have the lines drawn : mundane and non-mundane, small time and big time. I hate that distinction. Doesn't anybody else? I mean, technically, anyone can become a sorceror, so why can't characters of a non-magick guild interact with magickal objects? Why is it impossible to get certain things done without magick when there could be some great feat of engineering to do it as well? The fact is, the end times are near, big things are happening, and the way the world works is that only magickers can do big things. So everyone else is stuck trying to keep out from underfoot.
Don't give me any rubbish about leaders either. A smart leader doesn't lead followers into impossible odds. Even then, it would be better to have a somewhat meek clan than a clan that constantly loses its leaders and members. The fact is, with the way magick works right now, the best way to take down a magicker is through attrition, not preparation. So how much better off would the game world be if every non-magick character spent their time training combat skills so that they could fight against all the special characters out there? It's quite simple, we'd get what we have now. People would simply choose the more exotic guilds rather than take the odds on a deck stacked against them.
Maybe there is a reason for magickers spawning like maggots on a corpse at the moment.
Maybe, to fulfill the apocalyptic prophesy, "we" have to kill the endgame boss. Which will unleash the four horsemen.
Whether it takes a 'balanced group, infused (no noobs!)', a Halaster, or Frodo, we need a pool of max level, high Karma sorcerers and halflings.
High karma, because who else can bring down a boss VPC?
I hope you are wrong about 'bringing down' the endgame VNPC, at least if he's the dragon. That will strike me as rather stilted. After all, the Empire of Man, a society full of sorcerors, and with much greater technological and cultural advancement, stood no chance.
Play the game and find out?
It seems to me that the changes in 'overt' status of magickers and mind benders is in accord with the IC changes going on in Zalanthas.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I don't know, but I do know that if I were playing a character who has grown up fearing magick and feels s/he has the power to do something, that character would indeed do something to eliminate a considered threat.
I am not familiar enough with the 'flavor' changes regarding long-time outlawed guild types such as sorcerers and mind benders. For all the time I've been playing Arm those who practiced sorcery or who were discovered to be mind benders have been hunted and killed by just about every community in the game-world. Yes, there have been community exceptions, but they are specific and rare.
What disturbs me is the talk I hear about the overt-ness of these outlaw guilds. One person here mentioned knowing several such personalities in game. Well, if you're not one of them, or if your character's background or personality isn't supportive of non-hostile action against these 'eeevul' renegades, then you should be working to either distance yourself from them out of fear or to destroy them out of fear. Or anger/hatred.
Unless the IC nature of regard toward outlaw magickers and psionicists has changed recently, why the hell would gemmers or others who have no REAL IC reason to deviate from a long-established cultural rejection of these persons NOT seek to destroy them or avoid them?
Naatok sums up my feelings on the subject pretty well. Are there a lot of mages, Yes. Are there more then say 2 years ago, I do not think so.
But what bothers me is not the number of Psi's I know are in game or Sorcs, but the PC's who are NOT psi or sorc who associate with them like they are just another warrier/gemmer/insert class here, and Not, as the docs state, people who are universely hated and feared, who are hunted and killed simply because they exist.
To the point where it is actually Hard for one to run a PC who actually does hate/fear them. (Though I am still managing to do so).
The docs leave more leeway for elementalists, specialy gemmed but, all in all, The people to blame for the current state of affairs is not the players of the sorcs/benders but everybody around them.
^^^^ My thoughts exactly. I find if extremely difficult to play a char who hates magick, or fears magick, simply because there is so much of it around. Its just too common for me now.
When I started playing I remember seeing a Krathi cast mon un spell of doom on some raptor was a HUGE thing. I'd tell stories and shit about it IG. Now theres not much point.
Quote from: "X-D"Are there a lot of mages, Yes. Are there more then say 2 years ago, I do not think so.
I disagree about numbers, more karma and more liberty with special apps do the thing and numbers increase, but it's lesser half of problem.
What is seriously different, is that 2 years ago mundanes were not alone responsible for following guidelines and being aware of virtual world. I could be wrong, but it was always my understanding that alone mundane always fears magicker, yet magicker always cautious about wrath of the mob, so he keeps his profile low, he does not poke mundanes in the eye for attention. That is why, or so I've seen, magickers two years ago were not roaming north road with auras on, they were not camping right outside delf camps, they didn't treat lawless areas like their safe heaven and shooting stand combined. They were there, yet they were leaving enough room and action for mundanes. Pity though, "mob" works only if staff would give a fuck, otherwise there is no real mob simply due to low PC numbers. And self-restrictions that were binding magickers two years ago are now gone due to lack of interest. Now, according to recent post of stellar roleplayers mundanes should do this and that, while magickers are free to do whatever they want. Don't you think that mundane classes should become karma restricted, due to their importance and difficulty to play? Too bad nobody would play them though.
Two years ago my rinti elf felt a sudden urge to travel. Travelling on foot is rather tedious task, tripling the pleasure for being caught in sandstorm twice and falling off the Shield Wall once. Anyway, enough time to see sights, and the only magicker he has seen was gemmed Krathi inside Luir's. Meanwhile on the road he has seen three mundane delves (one by one), three mundane Bynners (together), one tribal human, one dwarf with two kanks, Kuraci sergeant and another breed passerby. And it was the time when Plainsman's gang was in its full glory, not to mention random freaks, yet somehow they all have managed to stay away from me.
Now, travelling with kankspeed without seeing at least one magicker openly on the road is a something impossible. Maybe there were too many mundanes in the wastes back then, and wastes needed more danger, yet I don't see what is solved in that area by promoting those mundanes to magickers.
Outliving Templar who permawanted you isn't fun, so after sitting in jail for 10 real hours I stored. Next character is in GMH. Eight guys have died during my stay, seven mundane deaths and one was unverified. Not a single report from hunters about seeing rogue magicker for themselves, only rumors and rumors of rumors and ash in fortress.
Rinth, two years ago. Two magickers were known to me on the eastside, one on the westside, and visitors from southside are ensured. Sometime it was becoming too mundane to dodge invisible jakhals popping out of nowhere, yet due to active clans visible mundane presense in the Rinth was still overwhelming.
Now, one should think that Rinth is made to be part of elementalist quarter.
Allanak, that's where magicker's number didn't change much, yet their social invovement did. There always were special Oashi magickers and gemmed Templar's pets, yet they were just that, special. There was still need for mundanes for doing mundane task. It was not like, let's send that Krathi to whack that thing for us, because he would do better than Wyverns and Byn together. Magick was always important for everything major, yet there were still room for mundane involvement. Magickers did not serve as complete replacement for mundanes two years ago.
Yes, as Flurry says, that's just one-sided biased anecdotical evidences, yet that's all I can gather from my logs from July-September, 2005. I see the difference and I am surprised that you don't.
We can gather around Belenos and wait several more months for new generation of great mundane leaders to come, but I think it will be fruitless. For any goal magicker leader has better personal power, magicker subordinates are more profitable material to work with, so no wonder that people chose not to bash their heads against the stone wall. It's not like mundane leaders are not trying, it's just their results are unimpressive. Group mudsex sessions are cool in moderation, but once mundanes stick their noses outside they get trampled by the guys who matter.
And to what naatok says, I am sure that most people who can't become magickers don't go stupid about breaking guidelines and include excuse for irrisistable tolerance towards magickers into their backgrounds. We all are great roleplayers here, anyone with a half of brain can come up with a reason to become exception, especially if exception is so common. Sorcs and mindbenders are where the fun is, would be silly to miss the chance to become spectator, if one is not provided opportunity to play at least secondary role.
Quote from: "Nile"^^^^ My thoughts exactly. I find if extremely difficult to play a char who hates magick, or fears magick, simply because there is so much of it around. Its just too common for me now.
Honestly, I think that's just a lame excuse not to roleplay it correctly. That's like saying: "I'm surounded by people being killed around me every day so of course I'm not going to be afraid of being one of those people." or "There's a horribly contagious plague around me that kills in a very terrible way, but there's so many people infected I'm not afraid of it." or "The mekillot population has exploded, the fuckers are everywhere and you cannot leave the city gates without running into one, there's so many I'm just not scared of them anymore."
You get my point? Not being -more- afraid or -more- hateful of "EVIL" magick is unrealistic.
Naatok is completely correct, IMO.
If you guys are -really- seeing this much magicker activity, then why -aren't- any groups dedicated to the eradication of the magicker outbreak, popping up?
They should be.
Comparing the oversaturation of mages/special applications does not and should be compared to something akin to "omg meks everywhere" or "wow new plague".
Just...no...no no no.
The reason some are finding it hard to still roleplay fear is because it is as if the exception is now becoming the norm.
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Comparing the oversaturation of mages/special applications does not and should be compared to something akin to "omg meks everywhere" or "wow new plague".
Just...no...no no no.
The reason some are finding it hard to still roleplay fear is because it is as if the exception is now becoming the norm.
I disagree and still believe that to be a lame excuse.
QuoteSo what? I'll be conservative and say that a "plethora" = three psionicists. I'll be conservative once more and guesstimate that only two special applications for psionicists were approved. That means that there are five in the game now. It may be just me, but I seriously don't see Zalanthas as a big enough playground to host five kids with magnifying glasses. It's just not fun being the ant.
The thread's 8 pages long, so I'm not going to do much but skim, but I want to say this -- a plethora was 12. I accepted 1 out of the 12.
If the game is not following the docs anymore by not making it low magick and high mundane like it should be, then why us players should have to follow the docs where it says that we should be terrified of magick because it's such a rare and misunderstood power when it is being used?
If an IC excuse is being used to explain the high number of magickers lately, then I don't see why us the players wouldn't be allowed to use the same IC excuse to start refusing to be afraid of magick and refuse to play it as the uncommon and mysterious power it should be..
Like someone said, it's also the Staff's job to make it the way it should be, if you see someone being friendly to a gemmed one, I don't see why you couldn't animate a few NPCs and start shoving that guy around and double his rent for a month or two until he and his magicker lover friends start getting the clue that magickers SHOULD be hated and mindbenders SHOULD be hunted and killed no matter what.
The sad truth is that I bet right now every single templars and nobles (southern ones) are just dying for a psionist pet of their own.
In a group of people, it is much easier to do something wrong than to do something correctly. Now, if 9 of those ten do everything right. They aren't remembered. The 1 bad apple did spoil the orchard.
Quote from: "jhunter"If you guys are -really- seeing this much magicker activity, then why -aren't- any groups dedicated to the eradication of the magicker outbreak, popping up?
Because you are the only one bright enough to consider magick's power and ability to quickly regenerate its members anywhere close to d-elven. Why there are not any groups dedicated to eradication of silt horrors? Because its impossible, they respawn faster than you could possibly kill them, that's if you can kill them at all.
Active struggle against magick is not only just as lame as open love towards them, it also way to quick suicide. I don't understand how you blame people for avoiding one part of mundane guidelines, yet wonder why people don't go breaking other.
Conspiracy theory #72.4
Note: Any similarity to any actual IC situations is strictly coincidental, because I'm making this all up from the hole in my head.
So we have a lot more "obvious" magickers than ever before. We don't have that many more magickers in total, maybe just a few. But they're all coming out of the closet. That's the current observation and we'll run with that. Here's the theory:
Some of these magickers have noticed that mundanes can be lulled into complacency through regular exposure to magicks. These magickers ain't stupid - they're going to use the mundanes as their tools; their -very useful- mundane tools. Their -plot-enhancing- tools. Tools that can make a real difference, without ever using a drop of magicks themselves.
So the public magickers secretly plot against whatever they perceive as their enemy, all the while gathering up mundanes to sooth and calm with their regular presence. Some might even be manipulated into believing that the public magickers are the good guys; or at least, not the bad guys. In the meantime, the magickers who are remaining unknown, are in on this whole thing, and are using this time to raise their powers to untold proportions, enough to level cities and usurp Sorcerer Kings. The magickers who are making nice and skipping merrily with mundanes down city streets are a ruse; a facade, carefully planned, to keep the mundanes at bay.
The so-called bad guys that the public magickers have convinced the mundanes about, are finally destroyed, and the magickers, who have intentionally made mundanes feel comfortable in their presence, suddenly reveal their true intent; to rid the world of all things mundane, and turn the entire planet into a ball of pure magick.
Mundanes are rounded up and penned in cages, and are tortured into submission in all sorts of vile, nasty magickal ways and turned into slaves, or killed outright.
End theory.
Now, if such a theory had any merit (this was posted mostly as just something to consider, not with any real understanding of what's going on), the magickers would -have- to be out there in the open. They'd need to "prove" themselves trustworthy, to relax the minds of those who would normally avoid them, or hunt them, or fear them. It's a lot of work, changing the mindset of an entire world population, don't you think? Especially if all these public magickers making merry and wreaking havoc and generally desensitising mundanes are doing what they're doing, JUST to cover up the true evil that lurks behind the scenes, unknown by anyone, anywhere. Maybe even the public magickers themselves don't know what's really going on; maybe they've been duped too!
Far fetched as it may seem, I think it could be a reasonable theory, and would make for an awesome plotline, and would (in my opinion) quickly cause those of us who are happy to simply play our characters and react how they'd react, without OOC complaint, to laugh at the nay-sayers when we're all turned into a great rock of windy fiery energetic flowing ash and sucked into the void for eternity.
Quote from: "Doppelganger"Quote from: "jhunter"If you guys are -really- seeing this much magicker activity, then why -aren't- any groups dedicated to the eradication of the magicker outbreak, popping up?
Because you are the only one bright enough to consider magick's power and ability to quickly regenerate its members anywhere close to d-elven. Why there are not any groups dedicated to eradication of silt horrors? Because its impossible, they respawn faster than you could possibly kill them, that's if you can kill them at all.
Active struggle against magick is not only just as lame as open love towards them, it also way to quick suicide. I don't understand how you blame people for avoiding one part of mundane guidelines, yet wonder why people don't go breaking other.
The staff have said in the past that -if- people were going to hunt down and destroy magickers it would be realistic if they were doing such in -groups-. It has been said it's acceptable if done realistically so it's not lame. because it's not breaking any guidelines. You know what -is- lame though is using the numbers of magickers as an excuse not to rp dealing with magick as it was laid out and constantly whining about it OOCly instead of doing something about it in character.
This is just as lame as people constantly whining about overhunting as an OOC issue, when it's an IC issue that should be dealt with in character.
QuoteBecause you are the only one bright enough to consider magick's power and ability to quickly regenerate its members anywhere close to d-elven.
Knock off the flaming. And quit being a pansy and using multiple accounts to flame people.
QuoteThe staff have said in the past that -if- people were going to hunt down and destroy magickers it would be realistic if they were doing such in -groups-. It has been said it's acceptable if done realistically so it's not lame. because it's not breaking any guidelines. You know what -is- lame though is using the numbers of magickers as an excuse not to rp dealing with magick as it was laid out and constantly whining about it OOCly instead of doing something about it in character.
Yeah, I've pointed this out a few times--I agree with you, jhunter. Got a problem with something? Try to pursue an end to fix it intelligently. I've done that a few times with a few problems ICly with various characters.
Quote
This is just as lame as people constantly whining about overhunting as an OOC issue, when it's an IC issue that should be dealt with in character.
And it is supposed to be dealt with in-character. Yep!
Still a shame I can't ICly slay the special application process. :D
I still wish for some sort of totally mundane class that could 'sense' magick being used and could 'track' its source or where it comes from.
A class that could hunt magickers without the help of any other magickers would be nice, like, say, that Inquisitor example that was given a few months ago.. Except make it just as available as a warrior or a ranger.
The more trained the class would be, the wider area of effect his 'sensing' would be, you could then hire such person to go and patrol the 'hot spots' and determine where the rogue magickers are coming from and track them to their lair.
Instead of just patrolling the same area over and over hoping to catch someone because you know from past OOC experience that plenty of magickers are using this cave or that hole as a lair.
If magickers are becoming more visible and a greater threat/nuisance to the inhabitants of Zalanthas, it should be dealt with IC.
If too many players (and/or the wrong players) are allowed to play magickers due to a surprisingly generous attitude in the karma or special app department, that should be dealt with OOC.
One doesn't rule out the other.
Quote from: "Greve"If magickers are becoming more visible and a greater threat/nuisance to the inhabitants of Zalanthas, it should be dealt with IC.
If too many players (and/or the wrong players) are allowed to play magickers due to a surprisingly generous attitude in the karma or special app department, that should be dealt with OOC.
One doesn't rule out the other.
The staff have stated that the numbers are in line and it's the way it is currently supposed to be. That makes it purely an IC issue.
Quote from: "jhunter"The staff have said in the past that -if- people were going to hunt down and destroy magickers it would be realistic if they were doing such in -groups-. It has been said it's acceptable if done realistically so it's not lame. because it's not breaking any guidelines. You know what -is- lame though is using the numbers of magickers as an excuse not to rp dealing with magick as it was laid out and constantly whining about it OOCly instead of doing something about it in character.
This is just as lame as people constantly whining about overhunting as an OOC issue, when it's an IC issue that should be dealt with in character.
Writing in background that your braindamaged character wants to get pregnant from any sorc and psion he sees is not breaking any guidelines either, but it's still lame.
But staff is like a bottomless barrel of wisdom indeed. What else did they say? That displacing Tek should be done in groups? That irrigation of Red Desert should be done in groups? I could have never guessed it myself.
New magick code and 9 applicants for a single bender position are not result of IC effort, so why the hell it should be toned down by IC means only. But I see that difference between IC and OOC events is too complicated for you, so if Malken and Greve did not help you draw a line between the two, I have nothing to add.
Quote from: "jhunter"Knock off the flaming. And quit being a pansy and using multiple accounts to flame people.
Okay, so you are not bright then? Or your tale about genocide against delves was derailment and had nothing to do with discussion?
I was happy posting anonymously when I had a choice, otherwise this is the only GDB account I use on open forums for the last 19 months. If you can imagine Universe for a moment and then understand your place in it, then you would realise that I have zero reasons to keep different accounts to say something to you or about you.
Quote from: "Doppelganger"Quote from: "jhunter"If you guys are -really- seeing this much magicker activity, then why -aren't- any groups dedicated to the eradication of the magicker outbreak, popping up?
Because you are the only one bright enough to consider magick's power and ability to quickly regenerate its members anywhere close to d-elven. Why there are not any groups dedicated to eradication of silt horrors? Because its impossible, they respawn faster than you could possibly kill them, that's if you can kill them at all.
Active struggle against magick is not only just as lame as open love towards them, it also way to quick suicide. I don't understand how you blame people for avoiding one part of mundane guidelines, yet wonder why people don't go breaking other.
Get the magickers to do it. Fight fire with fire . . . or even better, with Nilazi. That gives the non-rogue magickers something to do, which keeps them from getting bored and turning rogue. It is a game, people will do whatever seems like the most fun.
I am fine the way I am, AC, thanks for care.
For the record, if one day all magick will die and stellar roleplayers will throw away components and robes, roll up half-giants and will start bashing the shit out of magickers that remain, it won't make me happy.
Can't you believe, it's quite possible to defend point of view for the sake of it, not for the better of current or future characters. I, for one, can afford it.
I'm really trying to find ways for the two sides to come together, help me out, people... Some mundanes with the ability to 'sense' magick would do a lot, for us who wants to keep with other mundanes, no?
I don't know why we should have to join up with other magickers if we want to hunt down rogue magickers, it goes against the docs that they should be avoided and feared as much as possible.. No offense to the gemmed ones, but tough luck if you start getting lonely because of it.. And if it makes life more difficult than it already is for the rogue ones, well, shouldn't it be that way to begin with?
The races are already well developed mentally, with all of their basic psi abilities, I don't see how a 'class' that is expert in detecting magical 'waves' throughout the world would so far fetched, at this point..
Quote from: "Malken"I'm really trying to find ways for the two sides to come together, help me out, people... Some mundanes with the ability to 'sense' magick would do a lot, for us who wants to keep with other mundanes, no?
Some elementalist leave some sort of traces or have other things that you can pick up with mundane means.
Quote from: "jhunter"Quote from: "Greve"If magickers are becoming more visible and a greater threat/nuisance to the inhabitants of Zalanthas, it should be dealt with IC.
If too many players (and/or the wrong players) are allowed to play magickers due to a surprisingly generous attitude in the karma or special app department, that should be dealt with OOC.
One doesn't rule out the other.
The staff have stated that the numbers are in line and it's the way it is currently supposed to be. That makes it purely an IC issue.
Can you post a link to this statement?
I personally completely agree with Greve.
Malken, you don't want us to come together... you want us to come to your side. By making it so that someone can detect or track magick, you are elevating them to the realm of non-mundane... there are already non-mundane people that can track magick. I will say no more.
There are already mundane means of identifying magickers. There are both ways to be certain that someone is a magicker and there are ways that your guess will be quite likely. Learn them.
Quote from: "ale six"Quote from: "jhunter"
The staff have stated that the numbers are in line and it's the way it is currently supposed to be. That makes it purely an IC issue.
Can you post a link to this statement?
This pretty much says that.
Quote from: "Adhira"However, the staff do not consider that the game is 'broken' or out of sync. Hopefully there are enough places, people, rp and stories going on out there that most folks can find something to amuse and entertain themselves and their characters with, whatever their preferences.
Thanks.
I hope I didn't leave the impression that I thought over-abundance of overt rogue powers in the game-world was strictly a problem mundane characters (meaning not magickally inclined rather than boring. There's nothing boring about non-magickers, imho) should be responsible for dealing with.
As roleplayers we should ALL be mindful of our in-game words and actions in relationship to the storyline and IC world.
Sorcerers and mind-benders should EXPECT to be hunted by the vast majority of persons (even other sorcerers and mind-benders). This understanding should be a -general- guiding factor for a player of these guild-types. They may not like it...or think the hatred and fear is justified, but they should EXPECT it as a matter of course.
There are also IC factors that may lead such persons to reach out to others in interaction. Such an attempt at interaction may fit perfectly with the background/personality of the renegade, and the situation. It should depend entirely on IC considerations all around, regardless of the guild-type played.
Just because someone practices sorcery or has the ability to influence the mind's of others in frightening ways, does not mean that they are automatically malevolent people. It just means they should expect the world (meaning other intelligent humanoids) to TREAT them as malevolent.
Now, I'm not saying that characters of these guild types should or would ALWAYS avoid others. Nor am I saying that when a mundane or elementalist encounters one of these rogues they should or would scream, "Die, die, die!!!" and attack.
A person who is wholly fearful of magick and who has the mind set of "Kill all the evil, ash-bringing sons of demon-whore bastards!" may NOT attack one if they met them. The interest of self-preservation or just mind-numbing terror...or perhaps some circumstance in the meeting....might drive them to stay their hand.
All I'm saying is that if some wizard or mind-bender is so well-known as being one that several (apparently dozens if I'm reading some of these posts right) people from different parts of the known world know who and what he is and what he looks like and when his birthday is and all the little goodies of social interaction....SOEMEONE....SOMEWHERE should be at least thinking about hunting the bastard down with the thought in mind of "One less evil magicker/mind-witch in the world."
We need more Zalanthans like this guy from Young Frankenstein:
"A riiioot...iss a ferrrry uuuugly ting......An' eet's about damned time ve had une!!" "Let's go keel die Fraankunschtein creeeature!"
Just a few random thoughts hitting on various points...
Personally, I think people are a little too focussed on the numbers. To my knowledge, the PC population has never been supposed to be an accurate demographic representation of the Zalanthan population.
There's always been times when there's been a disproportionately high (or low) number of PCs who are magickers, rangers, nobles, half-elves, half-giants, desert elves, etc. etc. Or tall, pale, beautiful, muscular, healthy, rich, young, articulate, fearless, etc. etc.
You can say it's different because magickers are more powerful, but they're supposed to be more powerful.
It's not true that mundane plots are impossible, though. One of my favorite plots ever was within the last six months, and all the major players were mundane.
Quote from: "Doppelganger"Now, travelling with kankspeed without seeing at least one magicker openly on the road is a something impossible.
I've seen this claim several times in similar discussions, and I'm not sure how my experience has been so completely different. Suffice to say, it's far from impossible.
Remember the VNPCs.
They still hate 'gickers.
Play it out, please.
Quote from: "Malken"I'm really trying to find ways for the two sides to come together, help me out, people... Some mundanes with the ability to 'sense' magick would do a lot, for us who wants to keep with other mundanes, no?
I don't know why we should have to join up with other magickers if we want to hunt down rogue magickers, it goes against the docs that they should be avoided and feared as much as possible
The docs don't say that. The guild docs give clear indications that elementalists are supposed to work with others.
That's why I hate that the IC slur "magickers" has become common OOC. There is a difference between Sorcerers and Elementalists. Everybody hates Defilers, and rightly so. Preservers generally get treated as poorly as Defilers, both because it is difficult to prove that one is not defiling, and impossible to prove that one will never turn to defiling in the future. Elementalists are clearly and obviously different. Everybody (outside of Tuluk) knows that they are different. Yes, I
DO believe that regular people recognise that there is a difference between Elementalists and Sorcerers.
People mistrust elementalists, because they have powers that regular people don't understand. But for many people, Elementalists are the least scary of psionicists and the three varieties of magick user (Templars, Sorcerers, and Elementalists). In places like Allanak, Red Storm and Luir's, Elementalists make people nervous, not terrified.
ps: I am referring to the population of the known world in general. Tuluk was damaged by powerful elemental magick gone out of control and has been paranoid about all magick ever since. Some tribes also have cultural taboos about magick, or specific varieties of magick. I'm not talking about those guys.
AC, I meant that mundanes shouldn't have to team up with magickers if they want to be able to hunt down rogue magickers..
I want to be able to play a mundane and just hang out with other mundanes, I want to push the whole magicky side of the game as far aside as I can possibly can :)
But apparently I don't know what everyone else knows and my mundane can easily track down rogue magickers.
Quote from: "Malken"But apparently I don't know what everyone else knows and my mundane can easily track down rogue magickers.
This is actually true. It just takes patience and preparation.
Quote from: "Malken"I want to be able to play a mundane and just hang out with other mundanes, I want to push the whole magicky side of the game as far aside as I can possibly can :)
I don't see why you can't just hang around with mundanes regardless of where you play. There seem to be plenty around.
Quote from: "flurry"I've seen this claim several times in similar discussions, and I'm not sure how my experience has been so completely different. Suffice to say, it's far from impossible.
I agree wholeheartedly, but you'd better watch out saying that or they may begin to riot and attack you too. :wink:
Quote from: "flurry"Quote from: "Malken"I want to be able to play a mundane and just hang out with other mundanes, I want to push the whole magicky side of the game as far aside as I can possibly can :)
I don't see why you can't just hang around with mundanes regardless of where you play. There seem to be plenty around.
There is this, and, Malken, magick exists. If you go to places where it is safer to be a magicker (like lawless areas) expect to occasionally happen across a magicker.
If you are still hellbent on avoiding all contact with magickers and pretend they don't exist, go ahead and try it, but your choice of roles will be limited, I'd be guessing.
This does NOT mean that you can't be involved in plenty of nonmagickal activities and hang with your completely nonmagickal friends and do totally nonmagickal things. You must just remember that if you approach places that they are more likely to be, you will be more likely to encounter them.
Two things:
a:
Stop going to places where mages are known to hang out, and/or stop provoking those mages, and you may have an easier time avoiding them. You who are so fond of numbers can chew on this: In 1 RL year I've been come upon in the wilderness by exactly 1 mage, and they were responsible about it and didn't just attack and kill me, but drove me off instead.
b:
Golly gee, you mean the wilderness is a dangerous and lawless place where you're very likely to die?!
Quote from: "Delirium"Golly gee, you mean the wilderness is a dangerous and lawless place where you're very likely to die?!
I prefer to view wilderness as a place where everyone is likely to die, not just me or just mundane classes. One thing is when my elf expects to meet Serpent and his boys in mid-alleys, another thing is when I have to enforce on him idea that every time he attempts to slip into Allanak he is very likely to be ambushed by magicker near the entrance. One thing is when I meet Shatuka on the road near Outpost, another thing is when I see Krathi patrolling there.
World has changed in many ways. So many times staff has said in reply to proposed changes that this and that should be result of IC effort. But here they go, they break the world over the knee with changes to code and not only they forget about IC efforts, they don't even make IC coverage for changes, they don't even bother to correct guidelines. Were changes good or bad is questionable, but don't tell me that the world is still the same. And strong feeling that there was no coherent idea behind changes piss me off more than the change itself.
But okay, some of you are convincing beyond belief. I will need time to see if I am not exaggerating problem. Besides, I don't think I have much to add.
Wow, that dead horse sure does twitch when you smack it like that.
Some feedback:
We've discussed measuring the number of special classes in the game and trying to limit roles. Problems with that include: 1) to be fair or even accurate, such a system would need to factor in how much people played in order to avoid having slots filled by inactive characters, 2) location should be factored in as well, 3) how to handle people who log in and immediately kill the character by chance or due to other players screaming magicker! and whacking them.
As someone noted, the PC population is not considered to be indicative of the general population - a surge in the number of PC Whirans doesn't mean that a flood of them is overtaking Zalanthas.
Remember that there may be some NPC magickers around in various plotlines.
One of my thoughts in the past in approving elementalists pretty liberally is that they entertain each other. A solo elementalist is somewhat boring, and having people to hang out with in the temples and do things with helps keep people from getting bored and powergaming. However, this approach does not seem to have worked well, and I apologize for whatever part I've played in unleashing a horde of elementalists in the past, although 95% of them seem to be dead now.
<WHINE>Handling special applications is, imo, the single most thankless task on the game. If you let too many through, both other staff and players will complain about it. If you don't let enough through, you'll hear complaints on the other end of the spectrum. If you do them too quickly, you get flooded with more apps; if you do them too slowly, you get flooded with inquiry emails and complaints.
Invariably it involves dealing with people who want to argue about why you're saying no and how they have changed radically in the week since that last negative note. It's difficult to balance the wants of new players against the needs of the game. Since I don't want to discourage people from playing so I spend a lot of time trying to explain to people why their app was turned on and how they might increase their chances of having one approved in the future. Sometimes people are nice about it, but sometimes they're jerks and personally I feel my daily jerk-encounter ratio is already high enough as is. This is why I was overjoyed when Vanth said she'd hold onto it for now, and you should all praise her to high heaven for being willing to cope with it.</WHINE>
Remember that the effect of an approved special app is not instantaneous -- there's considerable lag built in as people log in and try to find their feet or build the character's skills to the point where they're an actual pkill danger. We can throttle down hard on special apps, and have (note that 1 out of 12 psis getting approved, for example), but the results of that may not be apparent.
I would also suggest that OOC coordination leading to a bunch of experienced players with special apps or karma characters playing together in the same clan or group can lead to this perception, and is one of the perils of such coordination for other players.
In brief, we've done what we can short of yanking characters from the game. If you want to see fewer magickers, then I suggest not contributing to the perceived issue by apping your own, fwiw. Not to throttle back the conversation any if you want to keep on arguing about it, but right now the staff is pretty much limited to watching and seeing if being considerably more stringent about apps will work, so we've pretty much said all that we can about it for now. I suggest checking in a month or so and seeing if the perception is that it's gotten better or worse.
PLEASE NOTE THAT I DO NOT CURRENTLY HANDLE SPECIAL APPLICATIONS. DO NOT SEND THEM TO ME.
FWIW, I would seriously, seriously suggest putting a moratorium on special applications. Let those who have earned the karma play the karma-required roles. Focus more heavily on keeping up with those who have their 'review' flag on. Requests to be watched and considered for a karma-bump can still be sent in, but special applications: nada.
See how that works for a few months, and then consider whether the headache of special apps is still worth it.
Well, certainly we've considered that. Problems with it, though:
1) It's a necessary antidote (imo) to some problems with the karma system and helps ensure karma levels are getting looked at periodically.
2) People are always going to want to have a special character with a mutation, or some code-tweak, or a creature, and this provides a process for reviewing those. The alternative is just not to listen to people's requests, which I don't like very much. Some of the characters that have come out of that process have added a lot to the game.
3) If we remove the option right now, with the new game coming, people will feel despair at the thought of never being able to play guild/race X in the old game. At least, that is something I have heard multiple times in emails. Yes, the answer is to play and get karma, but in some cases the amount needed is great enough that it indeed does not seem possible. The amount of ill will and flamage this action would cause seems like something that should be factored in, at the least.
4) There won't be karma at the onset of the new game, so we'll be watching that before thinking about karma and special apps.
I think all special-apps should have a mandatory one-month wait period from the date that the staff member approves the application. That way people will be less inclined to put in apps, yet those who REALLY want that psi-sorcerer-dragonsthrall will suck it up and wait for a month. Might dilute things a bit.
Quote from: "bardbard#4"I think all special-apps should have a mandatory one-month wait period from the date that the staff member approves the application. That way people will be less inclined to put in apps, yet those who REALLY want that psi-sorcerer-dragonsthrall will suck it up and wait for a month. Might dilute things a bit.
One month wait period to send in another special app or one month wait period to play the special app?
I don't think wait times is the solution to the problem.
I simply think the answer is that the immortals reply, "No, there are too many of that specific guild in the game right now. Please choose another."
And, I believe this should all be backed up by stats.
Like,
How many whirans are in the game at 5 p.m. est
Where are they?
How long did they log in for?
How many psis are in the game at 5 p.m. est
Where are they?
How long did they log in for?
And so on, and so on. With these stats, you can get a better judge of how many is too many.
Because the problem can arise when you allow 5 mindbenders into the game, and their players only log in for 20 minutes each day.
And you have 5 sorcerers whose players log in for 6 hours each day.
More statistics, more things you can do.
Right... I don't think that it's the special applications that are really the problem, I think it's more the fact that you can special app while you still have a living character to play with, or that you can create a mundane character while waiting for your special application..
So in that case, why wouldn't I apply for a special character while I'm still playing the one I have, I mean, I don't -really- want to play a Whiran but why not special app for one? Who knows if I'll want to play one when my current character dies, and then I'll have that one that I can go with right after, and if I don't? Well, I'll just create another character that is within my karma range and keep that special app'ed Whiran aside for when I'm willing to play it, no?
If someone doesn't have the karma to play a sorceror and he is way off from being able to play one, I don't see why he should be allowed to play one even through special application.. I can understand giving a role to someone who is just a karma or two below what's needed, maybe, but going from having 1 karma to being a mindbender via special app? That should never happen in my opinion, and if some are allowed to do that, then maybe it's what causes all the bad reputation of some non-mundane roles lately..
Maybe that way you would have more time to spend watching the characters and award the karma deserved to the ones who keep quiet and shy about special apps, instead of burning yourself out answering hundreds of them a month because people are just requesting them "in case" they feel like playing them or in case they get lucky this month and get awarded a mindbender, no? :)
I think special apps are only a very small part of the problem right now.
The problem, as I see it, is more generally with specific characters who have already been in the game for a long time.
No, I can't back that up, and yes, it frustrates me just as much as it frustrates you.
And now I also want to add, on a more positive note, that where I'm playing right now I am not having or seeing the problem I had six months ago or so, so perhaps things are getting better, I think so, anyway, so I'm not just complaining for the sake of it, I just want things to get better and if they are getting better, then I'm happy with that :)
Perhaps something to limit karma approvals could be useful. Like, if the staff had access to a list of ALL PCs with any magicker guild or psionicist guild, broken down by guild type.
The list could be summaried simply with numbers, like this:
Elementalists:
vivaduan/rukkian: 4; most active average 2.5 hours/day (Grasslands), least active 1 hour in the last 2 months (last known location Red Storm).
krathi/elkroz: 3; most active average 4.8 hours/day (Allanak); least active not seen since 1998 (last known location, old Tuluk before the war destroyed it).
psionicists: 3; most active average 3.25 hours/day (Tuluk); least active average .5 hours/day (Canyon of Wastes).
and so on and so forth.
With the locations being the places the most/least active PCs spent the majority of their time.
That way, if someone wants to create (using the made-up info above) a Luirs-based vivaduan, it's a pretty safe bet that he'll be the only one, or at least, the most active one in that area. And if someone wants to make a elven psionicist based in the Canyon of Wastes, the imm looking over the application will be able to check on the details of the already-existing one, to see if it would be too many in that location to approve the app.
A quickie chart just showing the staff how many of which type are in which location and their average play times should be sufficient to give them a fair accounting, and make it easier for them to determine whether or not to approve an app.
The only drawback to this, is that someone who gets rejected, would then know OOCly that there's a psionicist who lives in the Canyon of Wastes. This could be problematic in less trustworthy players.
In theory, if a less trustworthy player apps a psionicist he shouldn't be expecting to get one anyway.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"In theory, if a less trustworthy player apps a psionicist he shouldn't be expecting to get one anyway.
In theory aye, but I've seen people who really didn't need to be playing those roles get away with it, and worse. I've seen people who didn't even have a basic grasp for emoting get 1-2 karma roles before. But even more sadly, I've seen a lot of people get turned away from things they probably should be able to play because these roles are being flung out and anyone and everyone, despite the karma requirements.
Partially I'm glad we are being given chances to play things we otherwise couldn't have. I've been playing for -- fuck knows how long now, and I've amasses a grand total of one karma, so I'm glad I had the chance to special app an elkrosian (which I really shouldn't have been able to.) But it was a fun break from the mundane, and the delves, until I could get back into the warrior mode.
Sanvean, thanks for such a long and thoughtful post on this, it's nice to hear thought has been put into this issue (and that the issue has even been acknowledged.)
I just wanted to add that maybe some in-game reinforcement of stereotypes and the docs would help some things. If a mage is being obnoxious with their power in a way that might be disregarding NPCs or the virtual environment, maybe staff could step in a bit to nudge them back into place. Gemmed mages in Allanak who (for example, not sure if anyone does this) walk around outside the Elementalist's Quarter in Allanak while GLOWING AND ON FIRE would probably start riots and panics. Even just a few echoes would hopefully be enough to make someone realise they're being a bit too blatant with their power in a place they shouldn't be.
The problem, as some people said, may not be more magick, but that more magick is visible. I think if the game were made more dangerous for mages to go around flaunting themselves as a mage, by both PC actions and NPC reinforcement, we might get back to a place where magick would seem more rare because it is seen less.
The problem with statistics gathering is that where people 'perceive' the problem is does not quantify well. Just saying a person is 'active' doesn't tell you a lot.
Consider the situation where a person is a sekret Nalzi, yet doesn't play the nalzi aspect of his character very much, the majority of the time he acts as a merchant, yet he is logged on and interacting quite a bit. Compare this to a less skilled roleplayer who has a rukkian that likes to do lots of magicky things with whomever he meets, but doesn't log on near as much. From the majority of player's perspective the first person would come across as a mundane, while the second is very visible.
How do you create formulas behind this? In truth you can't, it is all subjective. One magicker may add a lot to the game, drive plots, and be overall entertaining, another may not. My personal opinion based on what I have observed, is that a moratorium on special applications, or running things 'by the numbers' would have a negative impact on the game as well as the players. The best way to deal with perceived imbalances is to tweak them by looking at the subjective trends and the individual players, adjusting things using old fashioned good judgment.
Quote from: "Sanvean"2) People are always going to want to have a special character with a mutation, or some code-tweak, or a creature, and this provides a process for reviewing those. The alternative is just not to listen to people's requests, which I don't like very much. Some of the characters that have come out of that process have added a lot to the game.
This point could be addressed by allowing special applications for character concepts that cannot be created using the karma system as is, e.g. a psionic vivaduan, a mutant that can climb like spiderman. The rest of the points I can't really argue with. I will just say that special applications seem like a huge waste of time that is better spent elsewhere.
Perhaps special applications are a necessary evil, but it appears to me like there is one main problem that is the root of this recent explosion of complaints about the visibility and power of mages: lack of responsibility. Cutting back on special applications and forcing people to earn the karma is just one suggestion to curtail irresponsible players. Granted, we get people who abuse their karma privileges as well, so it wouldn't be a failsafe solution. I'll concede that point.
However, as alesix illustrated in her post above, I would like to see a lot more crackdown on those who throw around their powers or fail to consider the IC (often virtual) consequences of their actions.
One other major thing that I believe is leading to this perception of "mages everywhere" is that high-powered characters are getting far more casual with their abilities. They're walking around with openly visible affects, casting in the middle of the road or where virtual and (N)PC populations exist, floating around willy-nilly, and in general just not bothering to hide what they are. That in itself is not always bad role-play, as it may be in character to be arrogant or confident enough to believe they can get away with it. What is bad about it is that, frequently, they
are getting away with it.
Someone who doesn't bother to hide that they're a spell-slinging, psionic, or sorcerous freak should expect the reprisals that should be sure to follow. The one slight exception is the gemmed of Allanak, but frankly, I haven't seen nearly the level of "casual casting" from those as I have from the ones who have gotten cocky in their wilderness playground.
Quote from: "Belenos"The problem with statistics gathering is that where people 'perceive' the problem is does not quantify well. Just saying a person is 'active' doesn't tell you a lot.
Consider the situation where a person is a sekret Nalzi, yet doesn't play the nalzi aspect of his character very much, the majority of the time he acts as a merchant, yet he is logged on and interacting quite a bit. Compare this to a less skilled roleplayer who has a rukkian that likes to do lots of magicky things with whomever he meets, but doesn't log on near as much. From the majority of player's perspective the first person would come across as a mundane, while the second is very visible.
How do you create formulas behind this? In truth you can't, it is all subjective. One magicker may add a lot to the game, drive plots, and be overall entertaining, another may not. My personal opinion based on what I have observed, is that a moratorium on special applications, or running things 'by the numbers' would have a negative impact on the game as well as the players. The best way to deal with perceived imbalances is to tweak them by looking at the subjective trends and the individual players, adjusting things using old fashioned good judgment.
Hey Belenos,
You're right in that it's not perfect. But it sure helps in making decisions!
I think a lot of the special app problems could be solved by slight tweaking and careful monitoring of the karma system.
Theoretically, like Cale_Knight said, we shouldn't have to worry about someone who isn't a responsible enough player to handle a psionicist or high-karma mage being granted one...
But FightClub says he's got one karma. No offense to FightClub, I don't know his account history or PCs or the imms' opinion of him or anything, I'm just saying that the idea of the karma system is a measure staff trust, yes? In theory, FightClub's karma level would have been bumped if the imms trusted him enough to play a Vivaduan or Rukkian. He was not given these options, and yet when he applied for a much more karma-heavy mage, it was accepted.
If the imms decide this 1-karma player is trustworthy enough to give him a mage, why not simply bump him up to karma level 2 to reflect that trust? I know Vivaduans, Rukkians, and Elkrosians are all very different, but I guess I'm just saying that my opinion on the matter is that unless someone has proven themselves trustworthy enough to have open access to the first two, I don't think they should even be considered for the third.
I know I'm not seeing the whole picture behind the scenes 'cause I'm not a staff member, but I have an idea to toss around nonetheless. It's not terribly fleshed out and I know it's not perfect, but...
What would the staff and players think of a system that would allow someone to special app, but only at two or possibly three karma levels above their current karma? That way they could still try out new things, but I think a lot fewer people would try apping some of those 12 psionicists if they knew they had to have a moderate amount of karma to even be considered.
Sure, it might cause some new, very responsible players to be hampered from possible roles, but my answer to that is this: if they're that good of a player and the karma system isn't being totally neglected, they should have some karma in the first place, even after just a few characters.
Edited for clarity.
My thought is that I don't want someone putting the time and energy into revamping the system when a) it's in place for only a few more months and b) we're just now starting to see the effects of a stricter policy and need at least a month or two to properly see whether or not that's worked. When Arm 2 is up, we're going to try a karma-less system for a month or so and then re-evaluate.
To people who are saying that people should be RPing out fear of magick -- yep. And even magickers should be wary of alliance, with some elements inspiring outright antagonism in each other, such as water/fire, earth/air, everyone/Nilaz.
I think with saying that I've said about all that I have to say on the subject for a while.
I don't utilize the special app system much myself, but I wanted to throw out a thanks to San, Vanth, and the other imms who have dedicated their time to dealing with them. I'm sure it's a pain in the ass.
a strange shadow wrote:Quote
Someone who doesn't bother to hide that they're a spell-slinging, psionic, or sorcerous freak should expect the reprisals that should be sure to follow. The one slight exception is the gemmed of Allanak, but frankly, I haven't seen nearly the level of "casual casting" from those as I have from the ones who have gotten cocky in their wilderness playground.
There are other cultures in the world besides Allanak with the gemmed who are at least accepting of the idea of magick.
As far as cockiness in the wilds goes, well...some people will always be focused on the power they wield, be that a gladiator who is a sword master, an elf hunter with a bow, or a mage or mind bender. Some will be so focused on their superiority that they will abuse those who may be helpless in the face of their whim.
I would hate to think that every mundane sort of character who travels the wilds runs into such with any real frequency. In my mind, a frequent traveller/explorer would have a once or twice in a life-time encounter with such (twice if they happen to survive the first). But if this is happening on a constant basis with most people in the wild then I would have to agree something is wrong and out of balance. Maybe I am being narrow-minded....if so, I apologize.
Meeting others with strange powers though, is going to happen much more frequently than these ultra frightening, utterly ruthless and cruel sorts. Most people are fairly neutral in their benevolence/malevolence toward others and I cannot see those having magickal/psionic powers as much different in severity or scope....depending of course on the background and experiences of those folks.
However, travelling to distant lands and, as a player, not expecting your character to have a run-in with the occult is probably not a realistic expectation, imho. Even in a fully karma governed race/guild rp gameworld.
I agree with you completely on the idea that these persons should
expect fear and hostility from others because of their display of powers. Especially those 'outlawed' guilds, sorcerers and psionicists (and to a -slightly- lesser extent, Nilazi).
I just want everyone to know that the last char I made was an elven pickpocket, and the next one I'm going to make is a ranger of some sort probably.
I have lots of Karma. So there will be at least 1 mundane in the game!
^^^ I'm with you man. I decided not to play any magickers until they finally start becoming rare again.
I am also with you, Dakkon Black. I've found that many players who play magickers these days know exactly how to powergame their characters and have it down to a science at this point. Given that there's been so much exposure to magickal guilds and there is alot of information floating around freely both ic and ooc about those guilds, this has caused the loss of mystery surrounding the magickers to a number of players, brought discussion about the magicker guilds and drawn alot of ire from players who know about that. Another big problem is the fact that mage characters can see their advancement and know exactly how they're coming along. I hope that is addressed in the next game since it's too late at this stage in the game to change that. This saddens me and I refuse to play a magicker guild for those reasons.