So you make a 'rinth character and play in the 'rinth for a while. You meet a shady guy who you decide to team up with, but you can't find a private spot to discuss your plans. You look for a private place, only to get attacked in an abandoned building by someone who backstabs you for 60 damage. You flee with your buddy and try to find a place to recover, but there's nowhere to go. No dingy apartment, no private location to hide from your attacker, so you run out of the labyrinth and take shelter in the soldier-patrolled streets, and rent a cheap apartment. You hang out in the cheap apartment and make your rinth plans in there, and get bandaged up from your wounds. Soon, you make your way back to the 'rinth, but when you need to talk plans with your bud, or need a place to hide or recover, you always go back to your cheap apartment in the south side of the city. You've got a system going on, and it works.
How many people have played characters that live like this in the 'rinth? I know I have. And I don't think it's because I'm not "hardcore" enough to RP solely in the 'rinth. There are buildings and buildings and buildings everywhere in the descriptions of the 'rinth alleys, yet there are only so many places you can go in the 'rinth, to the point that you can scope out every one of them in very little time when hunting someone. So what is the first thing I think would contribute immensely to the 'rinth? APARTMENTS.
Incorporating cheap apartments for people to live out of, if only to have a place that is "somewhat" private, would encourage people to stay in the 'rinth and hang out in that lawless zone. Of course, there are dangers to having apartments in a place like the labyrinth, but that's perfectly suited to the theme of the zone.
Until I see apartments show up in the 'rinth, I can't believe that the 'rinth acts as anything more than a stage that people run onto when they're in the mood for some gritty RP, but a stage that people always run off at some point, when the 'rinth fails to adequately provide what's needed for their character to stay living there.
What does everyone else think? I'm really excited about the idea that the 'rinth could be so much more livable with apartments for rent. Such a small change could dramatically change how PCs interact with the 'rinth.
I don't think there will ever be 'apartments' as you're thinking of them in the 'Rinth. There are plenty of places, however, that you can make your plans in, rest when you need it and hide from the other denizens of the 'Rinth. Find them, I say.
I agree with spawnloser...I would like to see something added to the 'rinth though. Not sure what, but I find it lacking something even though it is very awesome.
I believe apartments would add a dynamic to the rinth which would be positive to play in that area of the world. The rinth deserves attention of some sort, and I think that rather than the CONSTANT nay saying of interesting, creative ideas, spawnloser should go hide forever in a hole and starve to death and rot.
It should be easy to slap a lock and a door on a small apartment!
How about more towering buildings with more than 1 or 2 rooms? How about showing that these buildings were actually USED for something ages ago? How about more secret rooms that aren't common knowledge? How about a hangout that isn't super-cramped, when there's plenty of unused space to be claimed by the person with the biggest stick?
How about a few gang-occupied buildings? How about adding some different unique flavors to each building and alley?
I'd love to see all these things. Fighting pits, tenements, commerce, ect. The Labyrinth is an area where any intelligent person can thrive away from the taxes and pressure of the common streets. There's not a ton of coin, but there's certainly a fair amount of 'high-class rinthers' to provide a damn good market.
Wasn't Halaster going to finish off his sim-rinth project? I wonder how that would turn out....Could be he has, I have been away for too long.
Most of the taverns have back rooms that would work admirably for this purpose. I don't know if the 'rinth taverns have them or not, but possibly they should.
Even if they're not rentable apartments (I don't know why they wouldn't be...fat corrupt criminal landlords ftw) there should be more buildings. Like seriously a ton of buildings. Seedy joints. Crumbling back staircases. I want to get behind the cardboard scenery and false fronts of all the room descriptions. I am willing to write some more buildings and secret rooms up if someone wants to put them in. Any staff member want to work with me? Anybody? Halaster? You guys?
Quote from: "Kalden"It should be easy to slap a lock and a door on a small apartment!
Right, now how easy is it to defend said small building with a lock? Remember that pretty much everyone would like what you have, so you'd better be pretty powerful/supported by 'rinthers to do something like this without having the lock destroyed/picked/door bashed in every ic day.
The labyrinth doesn't have apartments proper... why would they? Most people there can barely afford to eat and as every good southsider knows, drinks the piss of their own to survive. Criminal landlords would have to charge exorbitant fees to make it worth the constant safeguarding of their properties (even if allied with various powerful 'rinth groups, I can't think of any that wouldn't have enemies somewhere...) Exorbitant fees for poor rinthers... is rat-crafting overpowered?
Lord Templar Hard Nose thinks:
"In the 'rinth it's squatters-only, if you squat somewhere nice, expect to be squatted."
Quote from: "Eternal"Quote from: "Kalden"It should be easy to slap a lock and a door on a small apartment!
Right, now how easy is it to defend said small building with a lock? Remember that pretty much everyone would like what you have, so you'd better be pretty powerful/supported by 'rinthers to do something like this without having the lock destroyed/picked/door bashed in every ic day.
The point, though, is not to have a secure place to keep your belongings. We can pretty much rule that out. The point is to have a place that is SOMEWHAT private to sleep and plan and requires a -little- more effort to get to than most of the open buildings in the rinth.
Cheap rentable rooms in Folley.
The only problem I have with the 'rinth is that it's often felt like a ghost town setup for Armageddon: DeathMatch rather than a living and breathing environment of people living in squalor like you see on the news in third world countries. Whenever I am there, I feel like I'm participating in som cheesy Van Damme movie where I'm an old war vet being hunted on the streets by an elite team of crack addicts. Should that feeling exist? Sure. Should it exist almost everywhere? No.
Sand brick hovels, malnourished kids running around, local warlords holding sway over the will of the people, confusing alleys and streets controlled by regional gangs, I don't get this feel from the 'rinth, though I feel like I should.
What would -I- like to see? A lot more people.
I'd like to the 'rinth (both sides) cut into portions and given a theme to be fleshed out with both new NPC additions as well as some cosmetic changes to the rooms to build a more interesting environment. Roaming kid gangs, brothels, couple gang areas fleshed out with interesting characters and different environments.
Example : Let's take a common "Dead End" with an "abandoned building".
Currently, it might look something like this:
Wide Alley [NS]
>south
Wide Alley [NS]
>south
Wide Alley [NS]
>south
Dead End [NW]
>west
Abandoned Building [E]
I'd much rather see this space used to represent some IC "section" of the 'rinth that provides some RP atmosphere, interesting characters, and populated feel of an area supposedly crawling with the poor.
Let's pretend that this section of town is home to one of the local gang leaders who is known to have a hand in fencing stolen goods in the city. Quick finger Jak is known to run this section of the alley, willing to purchase a small amount of non-rinthi gear that he can sell or return to prospects in the city. He also can be used for IC plots as a source of potential information or to further quests.
Wide Alley [NS]
Partially blocking the alley is an old wagon, its wheels removed.
A burly, heavily scarred man stands here, watching over the alley.
A willowy, sunken eyed man stands here, gaze flitting about nervously.
>south
Wide Alley [NS]
A small pack of malnourished children is here, playing in the dirty street.
>south
Wide Alley [NS]
>south
Dead End [NW]
Packed into the corner is a rockety push cart, old and weathered.
The pallid, black-haired man stands here, leaning against a doorway.
A dirty, broken nosed teen is here, crouched against the wall.
>west
A dirty, broken nosed teen's eyes move over you as you enter.
Old Building [E]
Old crates litter the southwestern corner of the room.
An old irrig lamp hands from the ceiling, providing a dim yellow glow.
The hulking, one eyed mul stands here, arms folded over her chest.
The sinewy, beady-eyed man is here, near a stack of old crates.
This would make the 'rinth a lot more interesting to me, and much less like a void gaming environment designed for like a PK arena.
-LoD
Rentable apparentments isn't a good idea in my opinion. The rinth, as it is now, is a dangerous place to live and an even more dangerous place to visit. If all of the sudden anyone with twenty sid can have a safe place to stay, whats the point? Why not put in some flowers and call it new-new Tuluk? Instead of scrounging and surviving we can all hold hands and plan someone to death. After that, we can write some songs about it and hold a contest!
WTFBBQ? The master plan of an 'average' rinther is this:
1) Find someone who doesn't belong there - someone with some stuff worth taking.
2) Find someone who does belong there - someone who will help you take the stuff.
3) Take the stuff with your new best friend.
4) Obtain food, obtain drink, obtain spice, obtain whores.
5) goto 1.
This needs discussion in a safe and secret spot away from the prying eyes of.... other people who want to do the same thing? Why not instead take a risk and include as many people as possible? Form your own gang! Take the alleys by the hojos and squeeze them for all your worth! Its much more fun, in my opinion, to take risks and deal with IC consequences than it is to play it completely safe.
If you are planning something more grand - like whacking a noble or planting explosives in the pants of a Templar, then odds are you already have a safe spot and some evil henchmen to discuss these things with.
If you're a super sekrit magicker and are looking for a safe spot - tough beans. Get a gem and go play in your temple if you want safety.
Someone trying to kill you? Why not beg for your life? Swear your loyalties and convince them your worth more to them alive than dead. Some of the best players and most powerful PC's I've interacted with have started off just like that - as someone else's bitch.
As far as the alleys being "Armageddon: DeathMatch", I don't think anyone who believes that played long in the alleys. The vast majority of players who live and thrive there (and there are many more than implied in previous posts), aren't idiots running around with "backstab figure" aliased. Thats not to say there isn't PKing going on in the alleys, because there is - but the players who come there solely for that reason usually have a lifespan of about 2 hours.
My experience has been that if your willing to RP in the alleys and don't pretend that with 45 minutes of your character's existence that your the boss and call all the shots, you survive and do well. If you want to roll a character, point labyrinth and suddenly proclaim you rule the streets then guess what: Enjoy your next character. Along the same lines, if you make a rinther and are too skured to even interact with another PC, then why bother?
Just like any other part of the game, the Rinth has a learning curve involved with it and requires certain types of RP. If your unwilling to put trust in other players that aren't "hard coded allies", then you probably would have more fun somewhere else in the game. If your willing to risk your character by trusting other people who have had the exact same life you've had, then come on in, keep your mouth shut and be thankful for your cut of the profit.
Quote from: "Slink"As far as the alleys being "Armageddon: DeathMatch", I don't think anyone who believes that played long in the alleys. The vast majority of players who live and thrive there (and there are many more than implied in previous posts), aren't idiots running around with "backstab figure" aliased. Thats not to say there isn't PKing going on in the alleys, because there is - but the players who come there solely for that reason usually have a lifespan of about 2 hours.
My comment wasn't said because it
was a Deathmatch PK fest, but because the environment caters to that atmosphere. It felt like an outline of a world mostly devoid of content save a few stock NPC's and a handful of signs of civilization (taverns, shops, etc...) It's my understanding that a great many people live in the 'rinth. Entire families; fathers, mothers, uncles, cousins, friends, children. Not just 20 and 30-something professional thieves in a shoving contest for street power.
I would like to see the 'rinth more developed as a community, with the same dangers inherent to the people who don't belong. More echoes specific to the area, known people around the community. The cloaked figures and extreme lack of diversity in the room descriptions/content encourages people to lump it all together.
One of the major problems for people in the game is to consider their characters in a realistic fashion. They start a character at 19, 25, or 36 and usually die within 1-2 game years. How would they have possibly survived to 19, 25, or 36 acting that way? Environments like the 'rinth encourage this behavior because one alley is the same as the next. One cloaked thug is as good/bad as the next. They don't have names, personalities, apparent jobs. They can feel more like obstacles, mindless mobiles, expendable objects. Does anyone know who that figure's brother is? What is name is? What gang he's with? What he's doing tonight after getting off work from watching over a stretch of road? And what IS he doing there? If it's hard to tell, then perhaps some changes are in order.
For all intents and purposes, the 'rinth portrays a vastly different image and atmosphere than I've been led to believe by the documentation. I'd simply like the environment to better convey the sense of community I believe would be present there.
The 'rinth is a dangerous place, but it's also a home. There should be more elements describing and supporting the latter.
-LoD
Re: LoD
I think I see what your getting at now, but I think rather than the problem being an actual lack of diversity, which creates this "paper outline" it might be a lack of documentation in this area.
Take these questions for instance:
Can you name any of the major tribes that live on the eastside?
If you can name more than three or four, any idea what niche they fill?
Any idea for folks on the westside?
There are a TON of detailed, well thought out and "three dimensional" little clicks in the alleys, but no one really knows that because there isn't any documentation describing what you would know as a rinther growing up in the alleys. This elf is, in reality, very different from that elf - but without having the knowledge to tell them apart they appear totally the same - stationary obsticals all with the same goals. The only reason I know the answers to the above questions, by the way, is because I had a character who lived there for like a RL year and a half.
In comparison, when you make a character in Luirs for instance, there is a ton of documentation on exactly what you'd know, who you'd know and "meat" that you can read up on to increase your game knowledge.
Is that kind of where your coming from? Do you think a "street guide to life in the alleys" would make things better? Maybe give players an idea of the places they can and can't go so that they aren't forced to travel southside to escape to "safety" and have legitimate IC options available.
Disclaimer: Its possible I'm just too stoopid to find the docs that answer the above questions.
I kind of think apartments in the 'rinth could be interesting. But only if they were *low* security. And could violent NPC burglars be coded in? :p
What happened in the 'rinth and I suspect continues to happen is this:
People get into a fight, get hurt, and then immediately run out of the 'rinth to the Gaj or something to rest up.
A few hovels with really easy locks that you can rent would make sense to me. The place has, apparently, a bunch of crumbling buildings - so why not add in a couple of places (or just one) where you can pay a nomimal fee and get some respite (albiet not a lot)?
A lot of people 'play' in the 'rinth and leave it to quit out in Allanak. I think it could be improved and a few rentable rooms with cheap locks and no guards would go a long way to helping that out.
Quote from: "Slink"There are a TON of detailed, well thought out and "three dimensional" little clicks in the alleys, but no one really knows that because there isn't any documentation describing what you would know as a rinther growing up in the alleys. This elf is, in reality, very different from that elf - but without having the knowledge to tell them apart they appear totally the same - stationary obsticals all with the same goals. The only reason I know the answers to the above questions, by the way, is because I had a character who lived there for like a RL year and a half.
I think that there is room for improvement in two places: basic documentation and IC representation. I'd like to see sections of the 'rinth looking more the a populated community and less like an empty maze punctuated by cloaked figures.
One of the ways you could accomplish both of these tasks are to integrate more NPC's into the 'rinth in "zones" like the example I gave in a previous post and write up small scripts for them to help better flesh out the personalities and allow the players to learn IC information -- ICly.
So, borrowing from the first example, it'd look something like this:
Dead End [NW]
Packed into the corner is a rockety push cart, old and weathered.
The pallid, black-haired man stands here, leaning against a doorway.
A dirty, broken nosed teen is here, crouched against the wall.
>talk dirty topics
Narrowing his obsidian eyes, a dirty, broken nosed teen says, in sirihish:
"So wha' ya need t'know, eh? Mah name? Jak? Da fence?"
>talk dirty name
Rubbing a flithy hand across his mouth, a dirty, broken nosed teen says, in sirihish:
"Mah name's Kyn - wha's that ta you, hrm?"
>talk dirty jak
With a nod of his matted black hair, the dirty, broken nosed teen says, in sirihish:
"Quickfinger Jak? Ya he's in right inside - but ya better not try nuthin' or Dogga will crush ya like -this-!
The dirty, broken nosed teen's face scrunches as he makes a fist, knuckles cracking as he tightens his grip with a fiendish grin.
>talk dirty fence
Holding out a filthy hand, fingers wiggling, the dirty, broken nosed teen says, in sirihish:
"Ya got somehtin' fer Jak? I can take it to him fer ya, eh? Promise ta bring it right back!"
His jaw opening slightly, a laugh escaping as he holds out a filthy hand toward you.
>west
A dirty, broken nosed teen's eyes move over you as you enter.
Old Building [E]
Old crates litter the southwestern corner of the room.
An old irrig lamp hands from the ceiling, providing a dim yellow glow.
The hulking, one eyed mul stands here, arms folded over her chest.
The sinewy, beady-eyed man is here, near a stack of old crates.
>talk dogga topics
Lips drawing back in a snarl, the hulking, one eyed mul says, in sirihish:
"Fek you want? I'm busy. Talk ta Jak ya wanna do bidness."
The hulking, one-eyed mul shifts her stance slightly, watching you carefully.
>talk jak topics
Glancing up from a pile of crates, the sinewy, beady-eyed man says, in sirihish:
"Ahhh, what ya got now, hmm? Ya know m'name, yes? Ya need ta know about m'work, m'goods -- or mayhaps Dogga here bother ya?
>talk jak name
A light snort escaping his nostrils, the sinewy, beady-eyed man says, in sirihish:
"Ya don't know Quickfinger Jak? Best fence on the west side? Ya ain't no fekkin' soldiers, are ya, eh eh?"
The hulking, one-eyed mul takes a heavy step forward, growling menacingly.
>talk jak work
With a quick gesture to a pile of crates, the sinewy, beady-eyed man says, in sirihish:
"Ya give me shit, I sell shit, people buy shit. Pretty simple, really. Why? Wha cha' got?
With a ratlike expression, the sinewy, beady-eyed man cranes his neck slightly to view your hands.Alright, this is getting long - but you get the picture. People can use these commands to get IC information on their own. It also lends some characteristics to the characters, background, makes them seem like real people with a history, feelings, wants and needs. I think more things like this would be helpful and fun for the atmosphere and anything I submit in the future will include these kinds of things for the NPC's.
-LoD
Quote from: "Slink"WTFBBQ? The master plan of an 'average' rinther is this:
1) Find someone who doesn't belong there - someone with some stuff worth taking.
2) Find someone who does belong there - someone who will help you take the stuff.
3) Take the stuff with your new best friend.
4) Obtain food, obtain drink, obtain spice, obtain whores.
5) goto 1.
That's the master plan of the average rinther
PC. Why? Because the place is MADE OUT OF CARDBOARD. There is little potential roleplay beyond take shit, kill people, and leave. The average rinther
vnpc very likely has a far more varied day.
I'm throwing in my lot with Marko and the OP. What's wrong with a few hovels? A few keys? A few doors? A few hovels and doors will turn it into Tuluk? That is some pretty drastic reasoning. What's wrong with places to "live" and "sleep" in the rinth? Since all the documentation and culture suggests that that is, indeed, what people DO. It is, in fact, a place beyond roaming muggers.
This isn't a bandaid solution for a whiner who got killed by a backstabbing elf because there wasn't anywhere to sleep it off. This is a plea for a little more realism.
Edited to add: While LoD's proposed solution is elegant and about as thorough as it gets, it's a very cosmetic and time consuming idea. I'm totally Into It, but the apartment and hidaway idea would probably be something quicker that could be implemented to help the rinth's many little problems.
As a reply to most of Slink's first post, on page 1:
There's disagreeing with an idea, and then there's "quoting" things that were never said to make your argument seem more valid. Seems to me like you did the latter, throwing out a bunch of rubbish that noone ever suggested to make the original idea seem outrageous.
I really like the idea of cheap apartments in the 'rinth. I'm in favor of spicing up the 'rinth and have suggested it numerous times here, and I'm very sad to see that it's usually forgotten as soon as the thread dies away. It's a whole area of the game world, it's a starting point, one of the five places a new player can pick. But I feel that the 'rinth isn't alive, it's not a place where I can see a culture and a whole different "people" like the documentation suggests, because it basically is just a maze of mostly empty alleys. Sure there has been lots of great roleplay and awesome players in the 'rinth, but that's too rare for my liking. I've had several 'rinth PCs and I have never personally witnessed a 'rinth player who didn't spend a significant amount of time south-side, myself included, simply because there's so little to do up there and because some of the things that people need to live simply aren't there. You can't get water, you can't get proper food even if you have the money unless you belong to one of the sides or want to risk crossing the border daily when you belong to the other.
It makes perfect sense to me - some high-profile influential 'rinth boss has seized a block of passable apartments and is renting rooms out for an amount of money that makes it worth it for him, but that your average succesful 'rinther can afford. Think Guilders and other people like the NPCs who actually have in their mdescs "this person looks like one of the upper-class people of the 'rinth". Most PCs tend to be up there, having some money and some connections that make them more than just some starving skeletal figure eating moss off the walls. This landlord might even hire a handful of those people and have them watch over the place (or not, if a burglar bribes them) for a low pay, maybe even just food and water - enough for the landlord to make a profit, and enough for the goons to take the job. There should be plenty of people in the 'rinth who wouldn't mind standing around at a door if they get paid with precious food and water, right?
Both for realism and for playability's sake, I think apartments would be a great addition, even if only the first step of the major over-haul I'd like to see. Like the original poster said, there's really only a few places in the 'rinth where you can even be indoors and anyone looking for someone else can go through those places in a matter of minutes. How much sense does that make? You have a whole quarter of the city, completely packed with buildings to the point where only narrow alleys separate them, but you can only find maybe a handful of places to go into without squatting in someone else's shop or gang hideout.
Personally, I feel that the 'rinth is a forgotten and neglected place (from an OOC point of view) where it's completely up to the players to make anything of it. It's such a shame.
Anything that will flesh out the 'rinth is okay by me.
The rinth owns.
Quick and easy solution as a first step:
As I suggested as far as the rest of the areas in the city-states go, I think a few more buildings, hidden nooks, shacks etc would be a place to start to help improve the depth of the 'cardboard surface'. I know we all want an intensely complicated, instant-fun place to romp and run and RP, but this stuff takes time. Several extra enter-able ruined dwellings, alleyways, or open and close secret passages that might be halfway possible to find if you just study the room description a little bit would be nice without having to have mastered the search skill or know all the secrets. I know we don't want massive amounts of these so it is impossible to find anything/anyone, but several more that your average joe and his possible connections could sneak in and out of would be nice for all areas of the cities and wastes as well.
Quote from: "Hymwen"
As a reply to most of Slink's first post, on page 1:
There's disagreeing with an idea, and then there's "quoting" things that were never said to make your argument seem more valid. Seems to me like you did the latter, throwing out a bunch of rubbish that noone ever suggested to make the original idea seem outrageous.
Got any specifics? Normally when I quote someone to comment on individual points I put it in an actual quote like the one above. The way I responded before, which contains no quotes at all, was a response to the general idea as well as a response to what I believe were LoD's points. Did I take a jab at Tuluk lovers? Sure, why not. What are they gonna do? Hug me to death?
I'd also like to say that I never said the original idea was outrageous. I said it wasn't a good idea in my opinion and here's why etc etc...
Quote from: "Hymwen"
... I've had several 'rinth PCs and I have never personally witnessed a 'rinth player who didn't spend a significant amount of time south-side, myself included ...
My suggestion would be to try one that actually lives there and stays in the alleys. There are a ton of relatively safe spots that you can go and live in, whether it be owned by one of the organizations that thrive in the alleys, just some random house that a couple PC's have taken over, or a hidden section that nearly no one knows about.
Quote from: "Hymwen"
It makes perfect sense to me - some high-profile influential 'rinth boss has seized a block of passable apartments and is renting rooms out for an amount of money that makes it worth it for him, but that your average succesful 'rinther can afford. Think Guilders and other people like the NPCs who actually have in their mdescs "this person looks like one of the upper-class people of the 'rinth". Most PCs tend to be up there, having some money and some connections that make them more than just some starving skeletal figure eating moss off the walls.
PC's who have connections generally already have a place to live. I don't think the assertation of the original poster was that well connected PC's need a place to live. His point was that apartments would provide a means to make the Rinth more than just a stage that people always run off of after X amount of time, thus enabling NON-connected PC's a means to stay there and stay alive. Here's the original section of the post:
Quote
Until I see apartments show up in the 'rinth, I can't believe that the 'rinth acts as anything more than a stage that people run onto when they're in the mood for some gritty RP, but a stage that people always run off at some point, when the 'rinth fails to adequately provide what's needed for their character to stay living there.
Quote
Like the original poster said, there's really only a few places in the 'rinth where you can even be indoors and anyone looking for someone else can go through those places in a matter of minutes. How much sense does that make?
There ARE spots that you can go to in the rinth that provide safety or that keep you away from another PC that is looking for you. How can I say this and be relatively sure? Because you apparently don't know where they are. There aren't a "few places" in the rinth where you can go - there are a friggin ton (metric). You are basically saying that you are aware of every single hiding spot in the entire rinth, with 100% certainty, and could track down any other player who was trying to hide from you in a matter of minutes. How much sense does that make? Do you really feel so confident in your rinth knowledge having only played characters who spent a large portion of thier time southside?
If you run across someone who thinks closing a door in an obvious location is going to keep them hidden, then you're right - you can find that person in fifteen minutes tops. How is that different from anywhere else in the game? If you run across someone who actually explores the alleys and really knows the non-obvious spots, then you could search for hours.
Quote
You have a whole quarter of the city, completely packed with buildings to the point where only narrow alleys separate them, but you can only find maybe a handful of places to go into without squatting in someone else's shop or gang hideout.
This portion of your post actually makes some sense and is a far better argument than "ZOMG! I don't know where to hide so just make it so someone has to look in 100 rooms instead of 10!". I'd also like to point out its not a quarter of the city. Unless all the other quarters get renamed, it remains a small portion of the city. If you feel like telling the Templarate they now live in a fifth instead of a quarter, more power too you. In fact, you may feel free to use that as an idea for your character.
In conclusion:
The original idea isn't outrageous at all. In my opinion its just unnecessary for the reasons he stated.
LoD brought up another point (which was good) about making the rinth less cookie-cutter. My response to that was I think the issue is documentation rather than lack of depth.
Finally, your comments about me "quoting" things that were never said to make my argument seem more valid resulted in this post as well as my suggestion to have a beer and relax a bit.
Good day to you sir.
Why don't the interested parties write up some NPCs, and submit them to the Labyrinth/Southlands staff for possible review/implimentation?
Never know...might actually go in.
Quote from: "Yang"I believe apartments would add a dynamic to the rinth which would be positive to play in that area of the world. The rinth deserves attention of some sort, and I think that rather than the CONSTANT nay saying of interesting, creative ideas, spawnloser should go hide forever in a hole and starve to death and rot.
Constant naysayer? Pshaw.
Okay, seriously, the Rinth is one gigantic, dirty, dangerous slum. Noone owns anything. Everyone is a squatter. Go fucking squat. There's no renting apartment style. You want something, you claim it. You fall asleep and someone wanders in and kills you because you didn't have a gang to back you up? That's how it is. You want security, you join up with an organization that can provide that...or make your own gang and put a whole lotta work into it.
You want a place that you can go behind a locked door to get some rest after being beaten to shit? I'd prefer backrooms in 'Rinth bars over apartments.
People live in the Rinth. It may be a slum, but it's not an anarchic, propertyless society. The existence of shops and taverns in that quarter is proof enough of that. The Rinth does not solely exist so that a sizable portion of the Allanaki population can take turns mugging each other.
Well first of all I'm going to say that yeah I'm a newb. I'm only on my 3rd character but nevertheless he's lived quite sometime in the 'rinth.
I don't actually get the whole apartments deal.
Talking -
See I don't think apartments will stop someone from knowing your plans. You're as vunerable inside your apartments, maybe even more so if you're comparing it to talking in some deserted alley.
Resting -
There are a lot of hidding spots in the 'rinth. I can literally go down have a smoke and grab something to bite while I'm resting in there. I think I can still count on one hand the number of times someone has actually passed by while I was resting even (I think twice and more because I got lazy and just sat down where I felt like it).
Also I don't understand why it's such a concern in the sense that it's made to look as if people get stabbed in the 'rinth really often. My whole stay in the 'rinth the only times I've ever been actually attacked (Being aggression was started by the opposing party and went though into combat) was by some immortal controlled npc (bastards are trying to kill me!) and a pc who mistook me for someone else. I mean it does happen but I seriously find more pointless fighting southside than I do northside.
Another, if you ask me to put apartments and the rinth together what I think of is "deathtrap". Everybody in the 'rinth will start using that one liner "We know where you live."
---
I'm all for fleshing out the 'rinth but while apartments would be interesting inside the 'rinth I don't think they're going to be used inaccordance to any of the points here.
Quote from: "Slink"Did I take a jab at Tuluk lovers? Sure, why not. What are they gonna do? Hug me to death?
I love this man.
However, I agree that there should be apartments. It has nothing to do with whether or not 'rinth PCs need them or not. If they can find hidden places to sleep, hide their stuff, and hang out, then that's great, but people live in the 'rinth that aren't player characters, and when these people want something, they pay for it.
If a 'rinth character wants food, he buys it from the shopkeeper. He doesn't kill the shopkeeper and take the food.
Similarly, if a 'rinth character wants to live somewhere, he gets permission from whoever is in control of the area. While finding an abandoned area and clearing out any squatters is possible, it's by no means necessary.
The 'rinth is full of buildings. In fact, the 'rinth is pretty much nothing but buildings. I think it's more than concievable that there are people living in these buildings.
If living in these buildings means giving 50 sid a 'month for a room that has a hidden entrance who anyone can enter by, and is guarded by people that will mug anybody who looks like they have something valuable even if these people are current tenants, then so be it. The 'rinth needs its flavor after all.
Quote from: "Slink"There aren't a "few places" in the rinth where you can go - there are a friggin ton (metric). You are basically saying that you are aware of every single hiding spot in the entire rinth, with 100% certainty, and could track down any other player who was trying to hide from you in a matter of minutes. How much sense does that make? Do you really feel so confident in your rinth knowledge having only played characters who spent a large portion of thier time southside?
Not really.
There are some places where you can go and hide, or rest. You are very much sure no one will find you there. But they are not man.. There are not TONS of such places. There are places that everybody knows. There are semi-secret places some people know. And there are secret places that very few people know or use.
About the original poster's idea, the thing about some lockable places or houses is that, it should have very little security, or it should be very very secret, or it should be somewhere very damn hard to go.
Hard to go places exist. Some people know about them already. They are hard to go, no one wants to go there, so you are pretty safe there.
Secret places exist. The thing is, they are not safe. They won't be safe. You are safe so long no one else knows about it. If someone learns about it, it is no different than an abondoned building. Now the idea to implement more places like this will have the same problem. You will not know about them, so what difference will it make to you? If you know about it, there is no telling someone else does not, so you are still, in a way, as safe as you are in an abondoned building.
Places with less security: A door with a lock, a room rentable or a house which you stumbled to find an entrance. The thing is, if it is very safe someone else will already be dwelling in it, either the Guild (if it is in the westside) or a certain elven tribe (if it is in the eastside). And there is no way you can take the place from them. If it is not safe, we are back to where we started: That it is no different than an abondoned house. It is even less safe, because since it is lockable, anyone who knows how to get in will visit it more frequently. A lock does not make it decent enough to talk business. Because, sadly, even in the safety of your rented houses, you are not alone. People can get in there very easily. The fact that you don't realize it does not mean no one is there.
Now that was for southside, where people spend big amounts to rent a place. Places where you can talk about security. Take it to the rinth, and I am expecting to see little to no security. Which will be no different than the southside at all.
The rentable house idea in the rinth does not sound very realistic to me. Because people do not have enough coins to rent a house to stay in. A powerful organisation, such as the Guild can start to rent apartments with decent locks. But I doubt they will. Because if they are buying good locks, you are paying good rent. If you pay good enough to rent a house like that, people are going to think you have something of value and your house will be lifted pretty soon. You will realize it is not safe and you will stop renting. The Guild will soon stop making a profit and it will be called off. The Guild can put a guard at the door, which will increase the payment, which will call even more thieves. And in the lawless part of the city, your house will be lifted again sooner or later.
I still think the best way to put it right could be renting a backroom in the Folley for cheap (not too much like it is in the Gaj or Traders). You can talk your business, and it will be safe enough. Living on the other hand, you are already living the way you are supposed to. there already are abondoned houses there. And that is where people actually are living virtually. He is not supposed to have anything to put in a house, all valuables he has is probably in his pockets and his pack.
If rentable apartments get put in the rinth I'll seriously stop playing.
Um? What?
No. God No.
More rooms, perhaps. An ability to board up, or bar a door, perhaps.
Rent, no. Rent is for the commoners quarter.
I think thats a bit narrow minded. Just because they're poor, doesn't mean that cranky old guy who owns the run down building at the end of the block won't rent out a few rooms to keep himself in bread and water.
But that old man's house will be as safe as any other house. And the rinth has a lot of avaliable empty houses. You don't need to rent a house. That is why there are abondoned buildings, representing the empty places where you can live.
Well, if ERS puts it this way...
Gritting my teeth, I have to agree that apartments have place in the Rinth.
However, I picture it as a common room anyone can enter if they pay with a guard/toll collector posted at the doorway, not as something lockable, intimate and personal.
You may pay a couple of coins to achieve relative safety and comfort, but you shouldn't be safe from casual backstab anyways. Seriously, having safe conversation in the Rinth is a privilege that must be earned. If you have earned it and still don't have a place to go then major fortification effort is in order.
Big no for locks anyways, they are far too expensive to appear in the Rinth open. It makes more sence to hire defiler to protect your door, because this way you may be sure that noone will try to steal your defiler and sell it for some cash.
How do people in the slums get security? They pay 'security fees' to the local gang. They don't rent. They squat and give away 75% of their income to someone else so that they don't get hassled by anyone...not just the people that get their income.
Quote from: "spawnloser"How do people in the slums get security? They pay 'security fees' to the local gang. They don't rent. They squat and give away 75% of their income to someone else so that they don't get hassled by anyone...not just the people that get their income.
Then create a few gang member NPCs guarding a building that you're allowed to live in after you've paid your security fees. What's the difference?
Quote from: "Beux"I think thats a bit narrow minded. Just because they're poor, doesn't mean that cranky old guy who owns the run down building at the end of the block won't rent out a few rooms to keep himself in bread and water.
It's plausible, but
1) that guy would need to be one of the big players or paying the big players to stay in business or he'd be dead as soon as anyone got wind of him collecting good rent coin.
2) No one in the rinth has any coins to pay rent. Yea, yea...I know all the rinth PCs are rich, but seriously they're *supposed* to be poor.
3) If word got out that anyone who *did* had the coin to rent this dude's hovel was staying there, they'd be dragged out into the street and stabbed to death by all the poor.
I think LOD is on point to some extent. The rinth could use a bit more life, but not rentables. I'd like to see things like spice dealer merchants lingering not far from southside but backed up by gang colors.
Maybe more coded gang territories that you could join and get some level of protection.
The concept of owning property in a gang infested area doesn't make sense. The rinth deziens are either part of a gang that "occupies" territory and if you are part of that gang you are safe, or they're skittering for scraps and hiding from the gangs.
I mean, maybe the gangs would rent you a hovel on their territory. But that's really "paying for protection".
What might be cool is if you could go to PC or NPC merchants and pay for very expensive a mark of some kind that entitiled you to free passage though a portion of rinth territory. But it would only be applicable to specific gang npcs.
not sure. To be fair, I like the rinth the way it is.
[editted to add]
I look at the rinth the same way I look at tribes in the wild. In your tribal village you are safe, outside you are fuct. Join a tribe, or work to create your own.
The thing about paying a gang for your security is, you only pay them to stop them from attacking you. They don't stand on your door and guard you against other gangs.
If you pay a few NPC guards to stand in the entrance of the rented house, I think it will be reflected in the code. It will be like the rentable houses in the southside. Looks safe at first glance, but not safe enough to stop the thieves and assassins.
Quote from: "Ghost"The thing about paying a gang for your security is, you only pay them to stop them from attacking you. They don't stand on your door and guard you against other gangs.
They aren't guarding YOU against other gangs. They're guarding their territory against other gangs. You're just the guy who lives on their territory, paying them to leave you alone.
Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Quote from: "spawnloser"How do people in the slums get security? They pay 'security fees' to the local gang. They don't rent. They squat and give away 75% of their income to someone else so that they don't get hassled by anyone...not just the people that get their income.
Then create a few gang member NPCs guarding a building that you're allowed to live in after you've paid your security fees. What's the difference?
Hmm, sounds like 'apartments'. Seems fairly logical to me.
I'm not extremely fond of apartments, but I still like the idea of a mass hallway of filthy, cockroach infested rooms in one of the bars or something. Not like any 'rinther couldn't sneak in and get at you anyway, so why not?
I still think a few halfway hidden shacks and alleys would be nice. I've played this game for years and plenty of 'rinth characters and I still have trouble finding safe places - which is fine, but again... more places that you can find without having to know the exact "secretstonebrickpassage" word to 'open' so you can hide would seem reasonable.
I don't see how small dives are impossible when there are shops set up. It's the same thing, except you replace the counter and the goods with a bunch of tiny rooms, seperated by dividers or hanging clothes. You might have a 8x8 square foot area to yourself. I don't think anyone wants to incorporate the same types of apartments as Allanak has.
Quote from: "Ghost"The thing about paying a gang for your security is, you only pay them to stop them from attacking you. They don't stand on your door and guard you against other gangs.
No, that's wrong. The concept of 'protection' from a gang standpoint is that you pay them to leave you alone while you are in their territory, yes, but they protect their territory from all that would try to muscle in...which means that they are protecting you from anyone else that would try what they do in their territory, which is to extort coin from anyone living there.
But how can they stop an individual thief from lifting your house? A thief won't flash himself, and if he is not a part of the gang, what will stop him from stealing?
Quote from: "Ghost"But how can they stop an individual thief from lifting your house? A thief won't flash himself, and if he is not a part of the gang, what will stop him from stealing?
Thieves stealing in gang territory that weren't part of the gang would need to pay a tribute to the gang. If they didn't and got caught, they'd be in trouble.
I am sold. NPC guarding the entrance is something that can be done it seems. But I don't think you will be even half safe you want to be in there.
QuoteA Stinking, Enclosed Warren of Tents and Lean-to's [NSEW Leave]
The reeking effluvia of the Labyrinth is increased tenfold in this sprawling, enclosed area, the rotten smell of humanoid waste, decaying garbage and sour body odor mingling into an almost overpowering foulness. It is obvious that the buildings that previously occupied the area have been dismantled and haphazardly cleared, the rubble used to effectively wall off the numerous roads that lead into it. The ground has been thoroughly recovered, however, the remains of building's foundations and small bits of leftover walls used to form sides of crude lean-to's and shacks. A multitude of wretched humanoids mill outside the hovels, cooking over dung fires, haggling over the price of stale rats, or laying about in aimless misery.
A communal cess-pit is here, overflowing into the paths between tents.
A few cudgel-armed men walk about, keeping order within the warren.
An overweight, toothless man sits here, collecting tolls.
>list
Available for rent:
1} Not available
2} A hovel with only three walls
3} A hollow under a slab of stone
4} A filth-smeared tent
5} Etc.
Sucking greedily at an erdlu-bone before tossing it away and addressing you, an overweight, toothless man says, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
"Toll is a hunnert coins a month for a hole. You don't like that, you can fuck yourself bloody."
Continuing, an overweight, toothless man says, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
"Your things gets stolen, keep it to yourself because I don't give a Highlord's fuck. I sell the space."
Thrusting out a grime-spattered hand, an overweight, toothless man says, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
"You give me any shit, now or after you rent from me, I'll have my boys bash your skull in and give you to the pots. Now, give up the coins or get out of my sight."
I wouldn't like rentable apartments, but a massive 'Hooverville' woulf fit beautifully.
-WP also LOVES LoD's idea about making the rinth more... alive.
On topic, I don't think it's a bad idea, as long as the apartments are suitably shabby, cheap, and poorly secured.
Quote from: "Slink"I'd also like to point out its not a quarter of the city. Unless all the other quarters get renamed, it remains a small portion of the city. If you feel like telling the Templarate they now live in a fifth instead of a quarter, more power too you. In fact, you may feel free to use that as an idea for your character.
Of course, the Templarate will astutely point out that there are more than four quarters already. Templars, Nobles, Merchants, Commoners, Elementalists.
At that point, they will immediately have you drawn and quartered.
The original point of having apartments in the rinth, from what I've read so far, was to 1) have a safe resting place (which will be impossible to ever be considered 100% safe in the rinth other than inside your own gang-owned buildings...even then, never always guarenteed) and 2) discuss "secret" plots, which I fail to see why a rooftop or deadend isn't good enough for, cause if these places aren't good enough for your rinthi to chat quietly in, then I'm calling it OOC paranoia. :wink:
So, the point being: no purpose for apartments in the rinth. The abandoned warehouses and such already set around the rinth are as close to "apartments" as I'd like to see, and think are even possible in the environment. If you're dead poor and starving, what's the need of privacy?
Now, as for improving the rinth, if people helped sending in writeups for NPC's to the southlands admin like Halaster suggested, might be a step to reaching that goal. :D
In any case, I'm going to go set up a character in backup for when Sim-Rinth ever gets implemented. :lol:
On the flip side, while I still don't think codedly setting up apartments is worth it, I do acknowledge that there probably is space for a few virtual apartment buildings as people have mentioned. These are probably run by a tenant, likely either apart of or paying off the gang controlling the area, but instead of rooms, each level would just be one large 'room' with everyone mushed together for shelter on small 5 ft X 2 ft X 2 ft bunks or more like cubicles; a free-for-all for all those with the few sid to get off the alleys, under a roof, and on something softer than stone. I can probably imagine the "best" level of the building reserved for whores and business of that nature. In any case, no privacy at all most definitely IMO for discussing any risky topics, and to hide safely from some assassin? Count yourself sold out to the rinthi nearest the exit the moment you step in.
[edited to add] Oh, and these 'spaces' would likely only be rented out for a week, max, considering the high death rate of people from disease, infections, 'accidents', and starvation; not the month-long period like apartments in the southside or in Tuluk.
Makes me want to play a rinthi again... :lol:
To my understanding people live their whole lives in the 'rinth, I highly doubt that it's so horrible there that there is just this massively high death rate.
There should be a whole different society in the 'rinth. The few times I've been there though, it seems like there isn't any society, and there isn't even anything there codedly to represent it and I just didn't see any of the interaction.
How do people live their whole lives there if anyplace they go they are likely to get murdered because nothing is safe?
I run out of things to do in the 'rinth. I would rather see something to keep us rats occupied....Like, southsiders have mining etc (even though that can become incredibly boring).....
I think the solution is to have a good 5x more enterable buildings, with paths to climb through the rubble, and perhaps even get up onto rooftop hideaouts
There are rooftop hideouts. They're just... hidden.
But even with alot more buildings, it won't solve people having 'nothing' to do in the rinth, just make it take abit more longer before you've explored everything and get bored. :wink: Only way to solve something like that is to start your own plots.
You know all these gangs, that rule areas and need paying etc etc. Do they actually exist as PC's?
Quote from: "Beux"You know all these gangs, that rule areas and need paying etc etc. Do they actually exist as PC's?
The most powerful or influencial ones are open to playerbase. It is like, House Borsail, House Tor, etc.. The only difference is, it is not a house, there are not nobles, everybody is criminal. The Guild from the westside, and Haruch Kemad from the eastside are two examples of powerful/influencial organisations. Both are open to playerbase, and -usually- both have at least one PC (if not a few). They are usually low in PC numbers, and sometimes the members are not active or sometimes the members do not do anything important, so it looks like they are empty in PC terms. But I can pretty much say these two at least exist for PCs.
There are a few more gang/tribes, and often there are PC run gangs around the rinth, which adds color to the scene. But they are most often temporary.
So isn't rinthi' lawless politics the really interesting thing about the rinth? So, really...there's not much entertainment there, not much spark, not much to do, because those clans aren't active enough.
Surely they should be the ones bringing life to the rinth, not apartments.
Saying that, I'm still all for rentable space in the rinth.
Quote from: "Beux"So isn't rinthi' lawless politics the really interesting thing about the rinth? So, really...there's not much entertainment there, not much spark, not much to do, because those clans aren't active enough.
Surely they should be the ones bringing life to the rinth, not apartments.
Saying that, I'm still all for rentable space in the rinth.
The clans of the rinth are, in my experience, just like anywhere else in the world. Depending on what the flavor of the month is, any coded clan can have a boatload of players or just one or two.
That being said, I think they have very little to do with the entertainment value of the rinth. What makes the alleys interesting, at least for me, is the unique ability to form your own gang and enforce your own rules. In other words, if you're capable of making friends and get enough muscle backing you up, you -become- the lawless politics of the rinth. Where else in the game world can you do that? The only thing that comes close is the wilderness, but then you have seven thousand rooms to randomly run into another PC vs. the couple hundred of the alleys. The confined space of the rinth ensures that eventually you ARE going to run into trouble and conflict with another PC.
By putting in "safe places" where players can run to and hide behind the code, you basically take that away. A PC can no longer walk up to someone and say, "You know what... your now my bitch. Give me your pack, cloak and boots. Any profit you make I get half of. Don't like it? Me and my boys are gonna cut your fingers off and feed them to you."
Instead of that PC actually being intimidated because they have no place to go, they'll just roll thier eyes and run off to some little coded safehouse knowing they can use that anytime they want to escape the reprocussions of thier decisions.
Keep the alleys cramped and dangerous as they should be. Player conflict and tension is simply impossible if the PCs are too spread out or unable to get at each other because of the code.
In conclusion, Tuluk sucks.
Quote from: "Beux"So isn't rinthi' lawless politics the really interesting thing about the rinth? So, really...there's not much entertainment there, not much spark, not much to do, because those clans aren't active enough.
Surely they should be the ones bringing life to the rinth, not apartments.
Saying that, I'm still all for rentable space in the rinth.
I disagree with you so completely. I find that there's always something going on in the alleys. Sometimes you end up dying to some crazed criminal or unfortunate accident or tumble down a hole, or get ... anyway if you don't die before you find it there is always something going on in the alleys. And usually some of the best players can be found there. It's the players that make the rinth rock so hard.
Quote from: "Beux"So isn't rinthi' lawless politics the really interesting thing about the rinth? So, really...there's not much entertainment there, not much spark, not much to do, because those clans aren't active enough.
Surely they should be the ones bringing life to the rinth, not apartments.
Actually the rinth is quite alive when someone active is there. The flow of Allanakki politics is through the alleys of the labyrinth. If there is someone with a little bit of vision is there, the alleys have a lot to offer.
I had a character who later became a leader of an influencial gang there. Nowadays looking at the old logs, I get awed the amount of politics/spying/crime kind of mind games he was involved.
For a PC in a powerful organization, it is possible to be involved in almost all of the political strugle, the information trade, and the crime in the city. It is just up to the PC in question.
I agree with LoD's posts on the very first page that the rinth is like a ghost town. There're a few dozen NPCs, all easily identified by the varying heights of the hooded figures. :P And most of them are spread out so far, that it makes the place seem deserted. I want a hovel of life, overflowing with poverty and human trash, not a ghost town where everyone you see can kick your ass (with the exception of a vast minority of the NPCs)
What I think needs to be changed about the rinth:
1) More NPCs Not just more hooded figures standing around, dead as the grave. I want to see people on nearly every screen. Some, hooded bad-asses. Others, helpless bag ladies digging through stacks of refuse for stale biscuits. I want kids rushing around, kicking a skull up and down the street. Conmen on the street corners hollering out their pyramid schemes to work your way to wealth so that they can pay for the hookers the next intersection over. Ruffians trying to lure you down the dead end alley to 'help them move something heavy'. Street corner merchants selling things out of their many pocketed cloaks, and thugs that summarily knock the merchants over the head and steal their wares. Local goons watching over their streets in case someone unwelcome wanders in, or tries to start shit with the locals they're working stand-over protection for. Punks using chalk or paint to tag up the few walls that are still standing and flat enough to draw on.
This would:
A) Make the place seem more alive. It would give the rinth the true pulse of an alley that never sleeps. You could come to appreciate the true numbers, and the ways of life involved in the rinth. Seeing how the NPCs earn their coin would, maybe, make PCs realise that maybe they DONT neccisarily need to be killers to make coins in the alley. It would spark more interesting ideas than protection money, mugging, and theft.
B) Perhaps deter some of the PC - NPC brutality. Honestly, who makes sid beating up folks that have none to begin with? Seeing the rinth as a live place with life bustling on every screen, might just make some of the southsiders think "Hey. There's people everywhere. What if this poor feck has an ally nearby?" rather than "Nope, no other NPCs around to join in his fight."
2) Animated NPCs: And I don't mean the kind that sneak off, or hide every now and then. I want an NPC thug walking up and down the road he's claimed as his own charging tolls. A merchant wandering around a general vicinity selling his stale rolls. A pickpocket making his way down the street, trying to act casual. A shadowy figure who tails you a few screens before loosing interest. And maybe (who knows) a small knot of blue bandana'd figures, on the warpath toward the alley owned by the guys in the green bandanas. They could have a minor scuffle, then flee off leaving one or two slain for that lucky scavanger to find.
And again, this would help take the rinth from 'Ghost Town' to a place with an actual pulse of life.
3) More room echoes This goes hand-in-hand with the more NPCs thing. I wanna see stuff along the lines of:
"You hear a loud cracking noise, as of a splintering door, accompanied by nearby hollering as three figures run full pace up the alley, their arms laden with small objects."
"As you walk past a narrow, dead-end alley you spy two cloaked, hooded figures kicking and punching at a man on the ground, rolled up in the fetal position."
"Up the alley you spot a scuffle between perhaps a impoverish figures, roughly half wearing green bandanas while the other half wears red."
"A man bolts out of a nearby doorway clutching his head with one hand, followed by an irate, half-naked dwarf waving a thick cudgel, and a whore struggling to secure a few coins in her bodice as she quickly saunters off in the other direction."
"A swarm of rats suddenly overtakes the alley in front of you, scampering frantically for shelter or a place to hide as half a dozen small children chase after in close pursuit, throwing rocks and shaking sticks."
"A pair of figures, their faces hidden behind scraps of cloth, sneak up behind a merchant, selling things out of his cloak, and quickly drag him into a dark crevice he had carelessly wandered by."
Set up an email and declare open submission season! I want hundreds of these things. It would take a PC MONTHS of play to see them all. And if people kept sending them in.... we'd have an infinite supply of one-liner humor to spice up the bored players day!
This would:
Again, convey a sense of the population. The shear numbers of desperate, impoverish souls packed into this small, decrepit space. All fighting for survival by any means neccisary.
4) Name the streets/areas Only a few places actually have names to them. Like, Hathor's Way, or the Gan Zein Market. What if that long, wide street on the west side was 'Half-Giants Walk.' And that alley extending more or less east - west perpendicular to Hathors was 'Old Caravan Road'. What about alleys with names like 'Obsidian Street' / 'Jakhal's Path' / 'Lawless Lane' / 'Southies Demise' / 'Breeds Boulevard'.
This would: Add flavor and colorful grit. It would also aid in giving directions.
The tall figure in the dark, hooded cloak says, in sirihish:
"Righ' mate. Tah get tah that shop, you gonna need 'ah take Old Caravan, down to Two Sids. There be an alley there to yer left. Take that down to Headless Jozhal. It be on yer right."
The lost newb moves stealthily to the west.
Tapping you on the shoulder with a grin, the tall figure in the dark, hooded cloak tells you, in sirihish:
"Righ', mate. You follow him. I'm gonna take Twin Whore over ta Beaten Breed an' head him off at the far end 'ah the alley.
Maybe not get -THAT- carried away naming, but a few names here and there don't hurt. There should still be a descent amount of nameless alleys to not COMPLETELY remove the Labyrinth from the rinth.
5) And, with the street names, More small gangs and communities
Perhaps, in order to survive, the people have formed into sects or communities. Like, down Half-Giants Walk you'll find a group of people who don't take kindly to elves from Two Sids Lane. A small, nameless gang of teens will fuck anyone up who comes down their street with the wrong colors on. This would help to diversify from the simple East side, or West side fued, and aid in backgrounds. Your character didn't grow up on the east side, he grew up in the Hookers Last Breath neighborhood on the east side, therefore he has a preset hatred for folks from Thug's Reach.
6) The entire point of this post to begin with... APARTMENTS!!
-Small shanty towns: Just tents, lean-to's, tarps tacked at an angle, three-walled sections of alley, huts made out of scrap lashed together, a crevice in a broken wall, a table with crates stacked on three sides of it to crawl under. Anything and everything, all available for the low, low price of, say, 50 coins per 100 days. They'd have no doors, no locks, no real privacy, but a landlord that could try and keep people who ain't paying him out.
An alley [NSE]
This is an alley. It is crooked and dark.
Down a dead end alley to the west lies a shanty town.
enter shanty
Shanty Town Entrance [W Leave]
The amply body-haired, portly man stands here, a cudgel resting over his shoulder.
w
You try to walk west, but the amply body-haired, portly man pokes you in the chest with his cudgel.
The amply body-haired, portly man says to you, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
"Eh! You wanna enter the Alley Estate Shanty Complex, you's gotta be payin' -ME-. Got it? Now scram, bucko!"
So, next time that assassin backstabs you for massive damage, just run back to the shanty town and hope to hell he ain't renting there, and your landlord ain't susceptible to bribery. If you ain't renting, he'd keep you from going farther in, but once you're in, you're in and there's no doors, no locks, and no privacy. This could provide a fairly neutral place for your character to sleep. At least then, you'd be able to say you own something instead of just sleeping in a warehouse all the time. Maybe the landlord would do the occasional patrol to make sure everyone's in their right hovel (leaving the front door wide open for a couple minutes. :D)
- More elite complexes: If people can safely own shops, taverns, and other businesses, then they can do this! Same concept as a southside apartment, only with way more guards. Maybe even one patrolling the halls to watch for tennents who ain't going to their own room. The dangers of running places such as this in the rinth would, naturally, be expressed by the high prices for the very basic rooms. Say, 350-500 coins. This is where you're truely high class, successful rinthis could chill knowing that there're five brutes downstairs getting paid good sid to keep any unwanted guests out of his private space. This would be where your PC turns once his fencing business is too big to keep in his pack.
-Crummy, by-the-hour hotels:
With a grin and rousing chuckle from a few of his armed buddies, the tall, skinny elf tells you, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
"Twenny-five gits you a room wit' a door for three hours. Thirty-five gets ya one with a lock. An' fifty gets ya one tha's already occupied, if'n ya get my drift."
list
The tall skinny elf has, for rent:
1) An empty, doorless room for 20 coins.
2) A cramped closet with a door for 25 coins.
3) A furnished, locked room for 35 coins.
4) Unavailable
5) A dingy back room, attended by a half-elven waif for 50 coins.
Okay, so maybe there's no need for an NPC whore, but you get my drift. This gives you a place to hide out for a while, and a place to bring that hooker. Adds a bit of neighborhood flava' too.
I am SOOOO down with IAmJacksOpinion.
Yeah, that is pretty neat. I'd love to see those things in the 'rinth, it would be awesome.
I don't like idea about named streets. Because they are not streets, roads, lanes and boulevards, they are narrow dirty alleys weaving in all directions between buildings. You may name and stick a label to every hair on your head, but does it really make sense?
Also, Rinth is not only lawless, but also divided. There is no authority figure to come across the Rinth pointing his finger and saying 'this heap of dung is now named Golden Palace and that dead end is now named Central Plaza'. I assume that gangs use names to describe alleys and buildings of their own turf and everyone can share ideas with their immediate friends, yet I think that sticking label to someone else's hair makes even less sense.
Everything else is fine and nifty and fascinating, but if there is no possibility to do it all at once, then I think that Slink's proposal about documentation is most important.
I too fear that huge chunks of important information are so forgotten that they never spread ICly anymore.
Like, once upon the time we got attacked by staff driven NPC. Before blade work he informed us that our mothers look indeed ugly and that we have trespassed into land owned by the tribe XYZ. I have asked around later, and to my surprise not only we knew nothing about origin, niche and estimated strength of the clan XYZ, but also those not involved into fight have never ever heard the word XYZ before. This lack of knowledge is sad and I think it steals more from the Rinth than all the boring room descriptions. The first is fatal; the second can be moderated, colored and brought to life with a single emote at your very whim.
IAmJacks' ideas are all damn good. I don't get people who argue against apartments. It's a cheap, easy source of revenue. If something realistically should happen then it should be reflected IG. I think 'rinthers wouldn't even mind if poor southside families came into the 'rinth for housing because they couldn't afford 'nak's housing. It's more people to mug/exhort.
Apartments would likely be extremely dangerous anyway, because it's easy for an assassin or a thug to simply shadow you into your apartment. It's hardly going to make the 'rinth less dangerous.
As for the remark that the 'alleys aren't streets': all they seem like is crooked streets. Actually, I'd almost like it more if the 'rinth seemed more like a normal city with more alleys, rather than streets that twist and turn every which way. Oh well. The 'rinth is really not that confusing.
Quote from: "Kalden"I think 'rinthers wouldn't even mind if poor southside families came into the 'rinth for housing because they couldn't afford 'nak's housing. It's more people to mug/exhort.
Indeed, that's probably one of the main ways the 'rinth repopulates. People who have nowhere else to go naturally gravitate there.
Even alleys get names. Especially in a place that is only alleys. They'd get named after gangs that held them, or individuals that made it famous.
They'd gang names after some large street fight between several gangs that left a few crippled or even wiped one out(Headless Jozhal Lane, named after the great battle many years back that ended with all the Black Jozhal's lined up and executed with a chop of an axe).
Stuff like this adds flavor and makes the place ... Seem like somewhere were people have/do live. I have been through the 'rinth a few times and it really seems lifeless. Some place where people just kill each other rather then acctually live.
I agree, the Rinth could really use some more living work to flesh it out, if the suggestions by IAmJacksOpinion were made, I would promptly create tons of 'rinth chars.
These are all good ideas. I think it would greatly improve the 'Rinth and make it feel more real than it currently does. Make it more of a living, breathing part of the city. A filthy, rundown, scumbag-infested part of the city, but a part of the city just the same.
Quote from: "Kalden"it's easy for an assassin or a thug to simply shadow you into your apartment
There are enough places where assasins are forced to do the trick of shadowing into apartment.
Quote from: "Kalden"The 'rinth is really not that confusing.
There are enough places with named and straight streets that are not confusing at all. None of those places are known as Labyrinth though.
Quote from: "creeper386"Stuff like this adds flavor and makes the place ... Seem like somewhere were people have/do live. I have been through the 'rinth a few times and it really seems lifeless. Some place where people just kill each other rather then acctually live.
There are enough places with flavor and echoes and apartments and flowers and named streets and forced tricks and contests where you can live and live and live and live and live.
The 'Rinth needs food and water. Yes, you can already get it, but it's ridiculously expensive. I understand that the cost is meant to reflect the relative scarcity of food and water, but right now it seems like an artificial limit, at best.
A single meal costs about a hundred 'sids in the 'Rinth... how can most 'Rinthers, whose annual earnings (I imagine) are somewhere in the range between "bumpkiss" and "diddly squat" manage to eat? It forces players to do some rather ridiculous things to make 'sid (wow, every PC I've ever met just happens to be either a pickpocket, mugger or spice-dealer), or else just go southside for a 10-'sid sausage or bag of flour.
The 'Rinth needs cheap food and water (maybe foraged out of piles of refuse), simply because, right now, it's not clear how VNPC 'Rinthers manage to eat enough to live past infancy. This would add to more PCs actually LIVING in the 'Rinth, instead of going southside whenever they need to eat, drink, sleep or log out.
I...think I'm with Doppleganger. Let me explain how and why.
I would rather not see the alleys all get names that show up in the title or description of the room like how roads are named in other areas...in completely OOC fashion for anyone that walks past to figure out or know in common with another. There are enough virtual people willing to tell you the road names in 'Nak or Tuluk, I'd wager...same in Luir's and Storm even. In the 'Rinth? They'd probably be, as was said, this gang calls this unique intersection in their turf this...and name the stuff around it relative to it...and this place this and this this. They wouldn't tell people what they meant when referring to those places, because then they have their own secret code for navigating around their territory. "Let's split up, eh? You go north and I'll go south. Meetcha at the li'l three way between the big three and the hump in twen'y." All the RP potential and complexity that leaving it this way allows?
My suggestion? Have fun with it. Name them yourself...spread those names to people. If it becomes popular enough that everyone knows it, then we put it in the room title/description.
QuoteI don't like idea about named streets. Because they are not streets, roads, lanes and boulevards, they are narrow dirty alleys weaving in all directions between buildings.
Right, but no templar ever said "These fair streets are too immaculately planned. Lets make some little, decrepit, fucked up alleys somewhere where people can wander around, kill each other, and bring spice into this fair city!"
The rinth was once Allanak propper, but then (due to the obvious lack of planning) it just depreciated into a bunch of ruthless, slum alleys. I imagine noone knew just how massive the city would become, so they didn't plan it out too much in the early days.
But, yeah, I guess the idea of codedly naming the streets wasn't too good a one. Basically caught it on a whim. I actually better like the idea of PC's making their own names and making alleys famous by their own foul deeds. Like the Folley. Everyone who's played a few minutes in the rinth knows where, or at least -WHAT- that is, but it's nowhere in the name.
I stick to my other ideas steadfastly though. There needs to be MORE rinth! More buildings. I'd love to see
An Alley [NES]
This is an alley. It's dark, and alleyish. There's probably people looking to kill you around here. Did I mention it's an alley?
A crack in the wall opens into an old mud-brick building.Not neccisarily more NESW rooms, but more goodies that you have to pay somewhat close attention to find. As it is, I got a map of about everything in the rinth that is sensible and easy to follow. I DON'T WANT THAT! I want little hidden extras up the wazoo! Give me a reason to read and read and read those room mdescs. I want cracked doors leading up to forgotten lofts. I want a tunnel leading from one basement to another a few blocks down. I want to jump walls into long forgotten courtyards. I want holes in the wall that lead into warehouses. I want to climb the side of a building to that door-to-nowhere leading into the upstairs of a building. I want to find that nook beneath rotted out floor boards.
Seriously. The Imms wouldn't even need to do much writing here. Like I say, give it open season! I'd love to submit hidden rooms, colorful NPCs, room echoes.
On the subject of further documentation:
YES! If there really is a God,
YES! There's soo much your character should know, but doesn't. For instance, theres a town nearby where I live that holds a minor gang. They basically just smoke pot and the biggest thing they've ever done was stab a guy. Now, I never go to that town, and I can't remember their gang name exactly. But I know that (for some god-forsaken reason) they have Star of David bumper stickers because they use a similar star as their symbol or whatever. AND I LIVE 15 MILES AWAY! Motto of this off-topic story: There's a lot of common knowledge that's not commonly known. Docs. PLEASE! Have a special little sub-catagory of the 'tribal peoples' documentation for the Rinth or something. Or have a 'rinth_gangs' list in the help files.
I think the 'Rinth needs a bit of a make over. More focus on the 'Rinth "proper" and less on the sewers, more focus on things which any average character will take note of and can utilize. Tearing down a tavern and completely redoing it (perhaps with new ownership) would be a great change/update; out with the old, in with the new and all that jazz. I'd also like to see some more original plotlines sprout from the 'Rinth rather than the all too predictable scary monster swarms which seem jarringly out of touch with the ArmageddonMUD theme.
Yeah. As it is, the rinth is a ghost town. There needs to be a larger NPC population. Preferably one that ain't so hooded. It's like a weekend campout with the occult, and it needs to be more like a 3rd world country only more violent, and with no dictator (though someone's always after that role)
I imagine the rinth as a group of people fighting over scant resources and good squating spots, not a few ELITE cloaked people waiting on street corners to jump you for anything worth selling. The NPC population needs to be more than muggers. I think the fact that you never see an NPC trying to live off a craft, or a non-violent criminal trade (Pickpockets, Burlgars) gives the illusion that the rinth is nothing but a barren place to fight and spam sneak.
And there DEFINATELY needs to be more documentation on gangs and the social structure of the rinth, because noone's gonna live to the minimum character age of 13 without learning a few things! That's Junior High! If every day you went to school, there was a shooting, you would have to be damned lucky, or damned smart to make it to Junior High!
Speaking of documentation...
"What you know if you are from the 'Rinth" either has changed or I'm just looking in the wrong place. I thought there use to be a paragraph that told you about the most well-known gangs/tribes that dwell in the 'Rinth. Can't seem to find anything like that mentioned anymore. Maybe someone can shed some more light on this...?
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"
A single meal costs about a hundred 'sids in the 'Rinth...
Not sure where you are eating in the 'rinth, but I have to disagree with this statement.
My opinions and some information:
Apartments - I wouldn't like to see the traditional sense of apartments in the 'Rinth or UnderTuluk for that matter. Having apartments with keys in the crummiest part of the city strikes me as odd. Not to mention, keys can be stolen - how would they be replaced by whoever 'oversees' the apartments? However, I think the compromise where a group of people oversees a section of alleys that has a number of non-locking, not-very-private shacks
might work.
Whether any form of apartment went in is up to the imms who oversee the city and the particular regions.
NPCs - If memory serves, the rinth is deliberately empty for a few reasons. An imm told me some time ago when I asked why there weren't many npcs: The reason is both IC and OOC - it used to be that players would go into the 'rinth to kill the npcs randomly to skillmax. Heck, they still do. So at some point, staff removed a number of npcs to make it more difficult to go whack npcs without a good reason. Also it helps make the rinth seem a little lonelier. The 'Rinth isn't meant to be teeming with throngs of people like a bazaar.
Compared to Nak proper, the population in that section is very low. Few thousand people in a region that takes up a good chunk of the city. No overcrowding problems. Although people might migrate to the rinth, consider that the health conditions are much worse, diseases are more rampant, there's no law, it's 10x more dangerous...the number of people who migrate to northside daily is roughly equal to the number of people who die on a daily basis, probably.
It's like being in dying towns - you know people are around, you can feel their eyes on you, but you won't necessarily see them unless they want you to.
I can't say I'd support adding npcs, heh. I like it the way it is now. That's just my personal preference.
Room Echoes - I don't see any problem with this if used sparingly.
Naming Streets - As stated by others, this wouldn't happen easily. It'd likely require some semblance of governing order, or a widespread, highly publicized event (ie, a major massacre that killed hundreds). I liked what Spawnloser said, about creating your own way to identify locations ICly.
QuoteIn the 'Rinth? They'd probably be, as was said, this gang calls this unique intersection in their turf this...and name the stuff around it relative to it...and this place this and this this. They wouldn't tell people what they meant when referring to those places, because then they have their own secret code for navigating around their territory. "Let's split up, eh? You go north and I'll go south. Meetcha at the li'l three way between the big three and the hump in twen'y." All the RP potential and complexity that leaving it this way allows?
My suggestion? Have fun with it. Name them yourself...spread those names to people. If it becomes popular enough that everyone knows it, then we put it in the room title/description.
High Food & Water Costs - This might be a holdover from the days when everyone in rinth got rich by hitting the southside, and not really playing the poor conditions well. I don't remember who mentioned this earlier in this thread, but whoever you were, if you'd email me with the name/sdesc of these npcs, I'd be happy to take a look at the costs and make sure they're in a realistic range.
I'll chime in further when I've thought more on some other points folks have made.
Ashyom
Quote from: "ashyom"NPCs - If memory serves, the rinth is deliberately empty for a few reasons. An imm told me some time ago when I asked why there weren't many npcs: The reason is both IC and OOC - it used to be that players would go into the 'rinth to kill the npcs randomly to skillmax. Heck, they still do. So at some point, staff removed a number of npcs to make it more difficult to go whack npcs without a good reason. Also it helps make the rinth seem a little lonelier. The 'Rinth isn't meant to be teeming with throngs of people like a bazaar.
This problem in this line of thinking is that it treats the symptom instead of the disease. Instead of removing NPC's because of PC's repeatedly attacking them, change the environment to discourage those kind of choices. Instead of adding more thugs, beggars, or kids walking alone on a random street, create small centers of activity where attempting to murder one of the locals results in a fair bit of unwanted physical attention.
This would accomplish two goals; discourage random attacks on lone NPC's and better flesh out the community of the 'rinth. You don't have to go crazy adding NPC's, but create "pockets" of activity that help to demonstrate the environment within which these people do live. If you strip down the atmosphere to be a lonely cage, you have only yourself to blame when it breeds animals. Provide them with an atmosphere protected by the "laws of the streets" in certain areas, where they can witness poor children, women, and old men not being backstabbed.
Quote from: "ashyom"Compared to Nak proper, the population in that section is very low. Few thousand people in a region that takes up a good chunk of the city. No overcrowding problems. Although people might migrate to the rinth, consider that the health conditions are much worse, diseases are more rampant, there's no law, it's 10x more dangerous...the number of people who migrate to northside daily is roughly equal to the number of people who die on a daily basis, probably.
Lower population or no, there are still going to be communities that live within the 'rinth. As I mentioned before, the 'rinth is not full of only 20 and 30-something professional thieves, burglars, assassins, and thugs. Many of these people likely wrote that they grew up in the 'rinth. As it described and presently populated? Not likely. It's a ghost town deathtrap right now. Create a few pockets of "poor civilization" that people can witness first hand, interact with, and enjoy instead of prowling dusty alleyways devoid of movement and life. Give them an idea of what life outside of shadow, backstab, steal, kick, disarm, and sap is like.
The 'rinth is dangerous, but it's still a home to many. It should reflect more of that feeling than it does.
-LoD
Avast you 'Rinth lovers!
I've seen two sides to this coin recently. There are characters there now, that havn't left the 'Rinth in IC years. Often times you don't see these characters. Why? They don't want to be seen. You'll all have to trust that they are there. I tend to lean toward SLink in this, because I've watched him and others play there for RL years. HOWEVER....
I've also seen folks that seem to gravitate toward LoD's thinking.
So, without typing forever. I offer you all this.
LoD - I had an email from you a while ago regarding the 'Rinth. Forward that to me again along with any ideas you have. I'm up for discussing and considering anything.
I've gone through and counted the npcs in the 'Rinth there are over 200+
Again, you may not see them all.
Send me your ideas, your npcs, your bards with songs that have racially and politically charged humor in them. Ideas for clicks, clans and gangs.
Apartments: I'm just not sure this is a great idea. It's hard enough to keep your belongings in an apartment on the southside. Keeping them northside...well.
That said I'm not against it totally.
I won't put in everything. We might only get some of it put in. I don't know, but I'll answer all emails and discuss idea
GO GO GO!
Nechomacus
I've never been in the Rinth and only have what I'm reading on the GDB and in the docs as a reference. But maybe a "fresh" and "ignorant" perception might be helpful so here goes:
1) In some junctions, add a single cluster, or 2 clusters, of NPC community, similar to the Warrens in Tuluk. Non-aggros who would -become- aggro if one of their homeboys got attacked, who don't have their hoods up, and who might even offer a few torn and tattered doodads for sale at dirt-cheap prices.
2) There used to be open-communal apartments called "flophouses" back in the 1950's. Toss a few in the rinth. Provide a place for people to drop stuff they don't want to carry around, and take if they need it. Things that wouldn't sell for much (or anything) if someone bothered trying to steal them, but that might be useful. Like torches, charred and chipped bone knive-blades missing their hilts, broken bottles (used as really bad-quality weapons), torn and stained clothing, "ruined" armor, strappable pouches with holes in them and really low-capacities (as in, 1 or 2 small things OR 20 sids max). Any kind of mostly unsellable junk that very poor people -might- consider useful for their own personal needs. And anyone dumb enough to drop anything of value in the box would obviously deserve to not find it the next day. But have some vendors (as in the group mentioned in my first point) provide such things, so for RP purposes characters can actually -be- those dirt-poor people who have something to spend their newbie sids on without worrying about getting instakilled. And this point, point #2, would provide these people a place to hang out, that has nothing for sale, where they can do the old "leave a penny take a penny" thing.
L. Stanson
I, some where along the line had the goal to read the entire thread... put people got really long winded and I'm simply to lazy(drunk) to read it all. I have a love for the Rinth having actually made my first character there.
I do agree it feels like almost the stage of a movie. It gives the appearance of a third world post-apocalyptic slum with out actually having the depth of one. And I've always been slightly annoyed that most everything in the Rinth is super super super super secret with out having the need to be so covert.
Considering the amount of buildings that are describe being there, I can almost count on one hand the amount of those buildings you can actually enter and explore.
If this place can house, feed, and hold an entire population of people, then there has to be at lest some place for people to sleep, eat, and generally live. That doesn't require you to know a password, climb a ladder, and slide into a small hole into the wall so you can be alone for 15 minutes. Personally I'm in favor of expanding on the amount of indoor rooms that exist, that aren't abandon buildings or hiding spots, but instead places where people regularly visit and live. It just seems illogical that an entire population can exist on just a tavern and a handful of hiding spots.
If this has all been said before... well just ignore me. I just think some simple expansion on the number of indoor places would do the rinth good.
Are any of the ideas mentioned going into place, or being considered?
What about a "school" set up in the Rinith? We have other "schools" in other starting locations... places were player and pc can learn the ropes without being dirrectly involved in politics or by trial and error.
It could be structured in a way to fit in with the location, but from an OOC perspective it would give players new to Rinith characters a starting place.
What do you mean by school? The only other school I can think of is the Atrium, which is run by wealthy merchants and owned by a noble house, and the entry fee is quite steep. I don't really like the idea of an actual school in the 'rinth, if you want to learn the shady stuff you could ask some people but I can't see actual tutoring and classes in an organized manner taking place.
I dunno...I think there's already 'schools' in the 'Rinth...they're called the clans that already exist there, a big one on the west side being the Guild. On the east...well, you kinda have to be born into those, but that's why many suggest joining a tribe when playing a city elf 'Rinther.
My view is that the 'rinith will do better if we bring in more people. But, having hundreads of spam-killers and 1-hour character deaths won't help.
'School' might be a more OOC term to describe what I'm suggesting.
Currently we have the Atrium and Byn. They are clans in their own right, but also serve the OOC perpose of bringing together very new characters/ players with characters/ players who are interested in ICly teaching. So, we start a small clan like this in the 'rinith.
Say a gang/ group of people who are willing to role-play and teach how to survive in the 'rinith. They wouldn't have to get into the details of each guild. Just enough so new characters don't have to spam or die a thousand deaths to learn the basic's of 'rinith life.
QuoteMy view is that the 'rinith will do better if we bring in more people.
Or stamp out some of the tribals that are stealing all our good players. :twisted:
Seriously, though, one of the things that the 'rinth needs most is a consistant playerbase. I'm not sure we can support it at the moment, but I'm glad that it is there as an option regardless.
Or play well the tribals that would make the Labyrinth a more lively operation?
Quote from: "Tribal Information"
The Haruch-Kemad are a tribe of city elves that live in the Labyrinth of Allanak. Secretive, business-oriented, subtle and proud, these elves are commonly thought to survive in their harsh environment through shady means. They are best known for their dealings through the Allanaki black market, and for their ability to acquire goods from outside Allanak's walls.
Matron Verwolin's Orphanage may have the structure already in place to base such a learning environment around.
The only thing the rinth needs to educate new rinthers in the way of the rinth is a playerbase. When there are a few regular players running around, the school of hard knocks and the lessons of the streets are very effective. The rinth has a very high bang for its buck in terms of a lot of action, excitement and intrigue once even a very few people are playing regularly there and running around doing things.
My first rinther, back in my days as a struggling newbie, was what really got me into the game for real. The rinth caters to a different kind of player. It's not supposed to be easy, but I don't think things are too inaccessible now. I was readily included in a lot of awesome play with my first obviously newbie rinther. In fact, I'd say I found it a lot more inviting than the average tavern, where newbies can often go ignored or get a few pats on the head from established players before they turn back to their dirty dealings. In the rinth, you're often a part of those dirty dealings from day one, whether you like it or not. While playing my own rinthers, I've tried to do my best to recreate this experience for other players too, especially new ones.
joyofdiscord said exactly what I've been wanting to say far more articulately than I could have managed. I don't want to see the rinth made easier, because I think in so doing we make it more the same. I like that some places in Arm, are harder. I like that the Rinth feels so different. Just like Red Storm feels different. I'm afraid that making it easier, more newbie friendly, perforce makes it more homogenized and watered down.
Definently don't make it easier. Harder, if anything.
I find it is very easy to make a lot of money there once you get the drift of things.
The orphanage is ok. Who knows what they are really doing with those orphans? It isn't like a good RL orphanage that cares for the children and tries to get them adopted into happy families. It could be a recruiting strategy for some organizations: for the price of feeding the kids and a couple adult supervisors you gain influence and co-operation over a succession of impressionable young rinthlings, which makes it easy to pick out the best of the lot to work for your gang.
As for how to improve the labyrinth? Fire. Lots and lots of Fire. :wink:
Quote from: "Angela Christine"As for how to improve the labyrinth? Fire. Lots and lots of Fire. :wink:
Tha rinth! Tha rinth! Tha rinth is on fire!
Improve the 'rinth by coding in the diseases there.
That'll really give 'em something to bitch about, so maybe they'll stop caring about apartments.
Quote from: "Rhyden"Quote from: "Angela Christine"As for how to improve the labyrinth? Fire. Lots and lots of Fire. :wink:
Tha rinth! Tha rinth! Tha rinth is on fire!
Agreed, burn it down, and make a recreational park.
Quote from: "Tisiphone"Improve the 'rinth by coding in the diseases there.
That'll really give 'em something to bitch about, so maybe they'll stop caring about apartments.
There's already at least one disease. Probably not exactly what you have in mind, but it's a start.
although i agree that people lioving in the 'rinth are by and large squatting. its not like they sleep somwhere new every night. even in real life a squatter/group of squatters will stay somwhere till they get kicked out by an owner (which there isnt in the 'rinth) or muscled out by a larger/better armed group.
these groups of squatters work very similar to a street gang. they are a civilian force trying to p[rotect what is theres. they have only a few posessions, and there family need somwhere to stay. so they band together. claiming a building, an alley, a dead end street. and protecting it.
the people who live there know who should be there, and who shouldnt. and they dont steal from each other, or soon enough there co operation will break down and they will all have to fend for themselves, somthing that is much harder than working together.
now because they dont steal from each other, and they know that the "black headed, green eyed man" from a rival gang/ protectorate/whatever was hanging about. so they think he took there stuff.
which = a revenge attack/ revenge theft. soon you have full on rivaries between IG player run clans, and have an entire political system running.
it also consentrates the stealing activities on outsiders, because realy, why bother stealing from somone in a hopeless possition like yourself, might as well take a risk and gain bigger rewards. and if you fail in your burglary attemps or mugging you have somwhere you can run too.
i belive the onous needs to be more on players to start these gangs and get imm support later, not on imms to set them up to begin with
1. Fill it with sand.
2. Remove the left leg of every character currently living in the rinth.
3. Everyone who enters the rinth, gets the curse of "Find mental".
That would make it alot better.
Seriously, the rinth is awesome as it is. I'd say more players, but that's a pretty common problem.
Yeah, 'rinth is fine but I would still -love- to see some new stuff go in. And I'm still all for the idea of more rooftops and buildings enterable via roof and no other way. Would be cool places to explore.