Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => World and Roleplaying Discussion => Topic started by: Northlander on July 29, 2006, 11:53:33 AM

Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Northlander on July 29, 2006, 11:53:33 AM
There's an awful lot of bards around Tuluk now. I ought to know, I play one myself. I haven't a clue about Allanak but the "Characters You Don't See Often"-thread leapt in on a bard subtrack and I thought: "Hey! Maybe we can discuss bards over here instead!"

I don't like bards, not really. They give crappy ten-minute rhyme in the middle of a tavern and get me feeling constricted - I can't keep a conversation meanwhile because it'll piss off their player and also be hindered by the spam. And while a tall tale can put rumours into the game, the more common poem about the height of the Scaien, that's supposed to touch your character, rarely does - because you as the player don't think the poem's anything special. Let's face it, even with a six-stringed lute we're not Bob Dylan.

There was one point raised about too many bards having all their skills topped upon entering the game. I see this point, really, but the critique ought apply equally to Aides who don't need to go through cushion-school. And these off-the-street Sun Tzus. Like most all players, I went into the game thinking my character had learnt a little something already in his life. He'd have learnt one instrument quite good, I thought, and the basics of the common ones. The problem probably is that near all of us bard-players, with a few honoured exceptions, work as hard as we can with the rhymes and prose. Now, hear this. Few players are as good at making songs as they want their character to be, and you oughtn't care about their feelings but just send down the fly and take a piss at those your character doesn't like.

Actually, that's my full suggestion. When you see a bard you don't want to listen to, have your character not want to listen to him either. It's not far-fetched that your character thinks they suck despite their emotes about brilliant fingers. If they're Apprentices or Seekers, they're far from being so high-up you won't throw insults down the bar. When they emote about VNPC:s applauding, bring a few VNPC:s into your booing.

I have a suggestion for my fellow bards, as well. Try to do verse with long lines, or fit many lines into one 'sing'. This cuts down on the spam and length of your performance while it oughtn't hinder your creativity overly. Also, not everyone might actually be allowed to play inside a place like the Sanctuary or the Firestorm. According to the docs, bards past the apprentice stage but not yet master bards struggle with eachother for a spot outside the Lucky Ghaati. -Outside- the lucky Ghaati. Street-singing I adore from an OOC perspective because it always lets those who want to stay stay, and those who want to go, go.

Let's hear a few more thoughts on bards. Do they do anything for the game or is it just a circle-jerk of RL writer-wannabes? Got any suggestions for me and us prosaic tiddlers?
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Nakkibard on July 29, 2006, 02:07:41 PM
You play a bard, but don't like them? Heh...

I don't know about the current situation in Tuluk, but if there are too many bards around, perhaps more players could consider the option of playing a bard in Allanak. I don't personally understand why everyone flocks to Tuluk, of course the culture and the bardic circle can enhance roleplay, but the (PC) competition is huge. And the noble houses in the south don't generally consider bardic arts as 'barbaric nonsense'. I believe Allanak has a greater musical tradition than it is given credit for, because of being  under-represented by artist PCs. The general language used in songs, style, and theme, would of course be quite different from Tuluk.

I agree that less bardic PCs should start as starlets who have nothing left to learn. I guess most players don't enjoy roleplaying poor performances - in Allanak, a crappy song could even bring death upon the unlucky bard. Perhaps they could specialize on one instrument or singing and learn the rest later on.

10 minute songs seems extreme to me. Mine generally last around 3 minutes, 5 at most, with perhaps 20 emotes / sing lines. I try to have 10 second intervals between each emote to not spam everyone to death, and I don't mind if other PCs talk and emote in between. What is the difference between a bard performance filling up some of your screen and talks / emotes of other PCs not currently interacting with you doing the same? If you can ignore the chatty PC couple at the other table, you could easily just overlook the bard as well. If there are many PCs filling the screen, I'll just not perform until things are a little quieter, unless I'm expected to perform at a specific event.

I disagree with booing a bard PC who is performing a well emoted song. The player put quite some effort into writing that up, and if you or your PC generally don't like music, just ignore him or roll your eyes and leave. I doubt booing would be a perfectly IC option in all cases. The bard might be an assassin, or have friends who won't do any more business with you. He could even be the special pet of the grumpy templar over there who is just looking for a reason to get rid of you. If you are a noble or a dwarf with a focus to boo any bard he sees, then I could see it as realistic.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Medena on July 29, 2006, 02:31:06 PM
QuoteThey give crappy ten-minute rhyme in the middle of a tavern and get me feeling constricted - I can't keep a conversation meanwhile because it'll piss off their player and also be hindered by the spam.
I have a couple of points on this. First, I think you -can- keep a conversation going.  During the conversation, you could have an emote worked in to your dialogue of tapping a foot in time with the song, glancing over at the bard, or even scowling over at the bard. After all, the person has presumably started performing uninvited and why -should- they expect to get undivided attention from all those present in the tavern?  Secondly, while I think "crappy ten-minute rhyme" is unduly harsh, I do think that bards often do not pick appropriate material for tavern performances.  They should save the long epic tales interspersed with virtuoso instrumentals for the contests and use short, snappy stuff for taverns.

QuoteAnd while a tall tale can put rumours into the game, the more common poem about the height of the Scaien, that's supposed to touch your character, rarely does - because you as the player don't think the poem's anything special.
I think bards are really underutilized in the game for disseminating information, furthering political agendas, and other purposeful uses. It can be really tricky trying to do this though, mainly because of how fast moving the game is. The right opportunities don't come along that often, and when they do both the patron (in the loosest sense of the word, ie. not necessarily the formalized patrons of Tuluk) and bard have to move really quickly else the issue is no longer topical. It's wonderful when opportunities do come along though and I'd like to see more of them seized.

QuoteFew players are as good at making songs as they want their character to be, and you oughtn't care about their feelings but just send down the fly and take a piss at those your character doesn't like.
I have no illusions about my own poetry writing skills -- I write utter drivel. I like to believe though that it can still be entertaining drivel. :) Either entertaining IC'ly, where PC's enjoy it for other reasons than the exquisite metre or rhyme scheme or entertaining OOC'ly, where players enjoy it for how very bad it is. One of my bards was once booed by a group of PC's in the Tooth and I thought it was awesome!  My bard had a regular gig playing there and he couldn't have cared less about what he considered their boorish behaviour since he still got the 'sid anyway. And OOC'ly I found it wonderful not to just be ignored as if I had never performed.  Ignoring a performance is inconsiderate to the player, not reacting to it in-character.

QuoteAlso, not everyone might actually be allowed to play inside a place like the Sanctuary or the Firestorm. According to the docs, bards past the apprentice stage but not yet master bards struggle with eachother for a spot outside the Lucky Ghaati. -Outside- the lucky Ghaati. Street-singing I adore from an OOC perspective because it always lets those who want to stay stay, and those who want to go, go.
I've done a fair amount of street performing both in Allanak and Tuluk. It can be fun but is generally not very rewarding, either from a monetary or an attention-garnering perspective, as people almost never stop to watch. :)
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Barzalene on July 29, 2006, 03:10:00 PM
I agree with the originial poster, and if I too were in some way connected to the bardic scene. I worry that my feelings would be hurt as I do put ooc time and effort into my performances, but on the other hand... I have no delusions that I'm some sort of talented whatever anyway, so I supposed I could be pursuaded to suck up a little booing.

And for well emoted, as referred to by a nakkibard, what does that mean? Do we expect our pc's to be treated better if we emote better than the next guy? Or are we emoting that we're performing well, and in that case should be not spend more time saying what it is we do, not how well we do it?
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Spud on July 29, 2006, 03:21:34 PM
I personally hate most bards, no offence to the players. When I do play in Tuluk I usually show this in some way or another. My character will probably ignore the bard, but I'll atleast throw out some emotes to show this.
Title: Stages.
Post by: LoD on July 29, 2006, 03:31:06 PM
Bards like to perform where the PC's are, taverns.  They want their RP to be witnessed, they want people to have some background, and they want the potential for recognization and reward.

There's a couple things that would be interesting to add:

Performance Stages

It might be interesting if each tavern had a "stage" that could be rented for a performances.  Anyone not using this stage would be asked to either rent the space, shut up, or take a hike.  The stage would work in similar fashion to the "back room" that some of the taverns already have.  People in the tavern could choose to "watch" or "listen" to the stage and see all of the echoes of the performance, or ignore them to keep the spam away from their table conversation.

The stage would also let everyone in the room quickly know:

:arrow: Someone is performing.
:arrow: Who exactly is performing.
:arrow: If they want to listen or discuss something else.

An example of this might be:



Rowdy Tavern [NES]
Warped boards and mud bricks form the walls of this ramshackle tavern,
permeated by a thousand tiny cracks and knotholes.  Running the length
of the western wall is an old bar, nicked and cut by years of faithful
service.  Suspicious stains dominate the worn floor of this establishment,
the footing as precarious as the temper of its patrons.  Flush with the
northwest corner of the room is a cramped stage, raised slightly from the
floor for a good view of the room.
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep stands here, behind the bar.

>rent stage
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep says, in sirihish:
   "Cost ya 30 'sid fer the stage, my friend."

<gets coins>

>rent stage
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep collects your coins and shows you to the stage.

WHAT PEOPLE SEE IN THE ROOM
--------------------------------------

The lanky, fair-haired man steps onto the cramped stage.

>watch stage
You begin watching a cramped stage.

On the stage, the lanky, fair-haired man smooths a nervous hand over his silk vest.

On the stage, the lanky, fair-haired man says, in sirhishi:
   "For my first performance, I give you Faust's Fateful Day."

>watch none
You stop watching the stage.


This might accomplish a few things:

:arrow: Cut down on room spam.
:arrow: Cut down on the number of bards performing or trying to perform.
:arrow: Provide a better vehicle for performances in PC gathering spots.

-LoD
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on July 29, 2006, 03:32:58 PM
Booing a performance is giving the PLAYER attention, and if it is in character for your character for your character to boo, do it, I say.  The player is getting interaction and it is all IC interaction...but at least the player knows that you the player is paying attention even if your character isn't.

I also have to agree that most bards come out knowing everything and being perfect.  My most recent bard was a good performer, but not quite on with knowing what to perform when, and it was fun as hell, the trouble I got into for what I performed.  Screwing up is fun as hell.
Title: Re: Stages.
Post by: EonBlueApocalypse on July 29, 2006, 03:40:34 PM
Quote from: "LoD"Bards like to perform where the PC's are, taverns.  They want their RP to be witnessed, they want people to have some background, and they want the potential for recognization and reward.

There's a couple things that would be interesting to add:

Performance Stages

It might be interesting if each tavern had a "stage" that could be rented for a performances.  Anyone not using this stage would be asked to either rent the space, shut up, or take a hike.  The stage would work in similar fashion to the "back room" that some of the taverns already have.  People in the tavern could choose to "watch" or "listen" to the stage and see all of the echoes of the performance, or ignore them to keep the spam away from their table conversation.

The stage would also let everyone in the room quickly know:

:arrow: Someone is performing.
:arrow: Who exactly is performing.
:arrow: If they want to listen or discuss something else.

An example of this might be:



Rowdy Tavern [NES]
Warped boards and mud bricks form the walls of this ramshackle tavern,
permeated by a thousand tiny cracks and knotholes.  Running the length
of the western wall is an old bar, nicked and cut by years of faithful
service.  Suspicious stains dominate the worn floor of this establishment,
the footing as precarious as the temper of its patrons.  Flush with the
northwest corner of the room is a cramped stage, raised slightly from the
floor for a good view of the room.
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep stands here, behind the bar.

>rent stage
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep says, in sirihish:
   "Cost ya 30 'sid fer the stage, my friend."

<gets coins>

>rent stage
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep collects your coins and shows you to the stage.

WHAT PEOPLE SEE IN THE ROOM
--------------------------------------

The lanky, fair-haired man steps onto the cramped stage.

>watch stage
You begin watching a cramped stage.

On the stage, the lanky, fair-haired man smooths a nervous hand over his silk vest.

On the stage, the lanky, fair-haired man says, in sirhishi:
   "For my first performance, I give you Faust's Fateful Day."

>watch none
You stop watching the stage.


This might accomplish a few things:

:arrow: Cut down on room spam.
:arrow: Cut down on the number of bards performing or trying to perform.
:arrow: Provide a better vehicle for performances in PC gathering spots.

-LoD

Neat idea.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on July 29, 2006, 03:59:12 PM
I'm just going to copy and paste what i wrote earlier because i think it applies here:

QuoteNow the following applies only for me, everyone else is different.

Coming up with a non-twinkish ways of training my PC with emotes, living his life in general and/or coming up with a clever way to kill lord fancy pants junior is not hard for me, however coming up with a song, poem or story is. A simple heart felt poem alone can take me more then a week.(Damn you Valantines Day!!).

I've had one or two of my characters (never actually played a bard PC) tell stories these are usually adventures that happened icly or adapted from other stories i have heard and while they are generally liked i still find it hard...very hard to pull it off.

I mean it doesn't take me very long to come up with a few "colourful" emote when sparring, i do it on the go, however i don't think i can go into a bar and compose a short song, story or poem without couple of hours of work and preperation before hand.

Like i said i can go and make a dumass character and make a fool out of myself in a tavern anytime i want, a competent bard with few good songs, poems or stories under its belt is alot tougher...for me at least.

Too many magickers, too many free muls, too many whatever...maybe, its possible...
Too many bards though? I personally don't think its possible. While some may argue its better to go out and live out adventures and stories, i still think those that put the time into coming up with stories, poems and songs add alot to the culture of the world.

I kinda like LoD idea but on the other hand i rather people not have the options of ignoring the bards. Alot of things in this game are spammy, i rarely find bards to be one of those. That said, how someone tells a story or song is just as important as what they are telling, so asking people to do write it a certain way so it can be less spammy can take away from what is being told.

On the topic of bards and risking slight derailment i'd like to remind people of that idea of documenting old plots, in-game stories and other things for special apped bard, sages and historians...so my character can learn ICly what actually happened during the occupation, who was involved? what did they do? Or few RL years from now a player might be able to learn ICly, the amazing plot the imms told him or her was behind a loved PC death. History should be passed down though bard and sages and alot of stuff should have been recorded somewhere but players move on and everything seems to be quickly forgotten ICly and OOCly at least.

Again its probably just an appreciation for something that is very hard for me to do, but i have no problems with there being good or 'perfect' bards around.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jstorrie on July 29, 2006, 04:11:48 PM
Playing a song is all right, if you're a bard, but generally (for Tuluki bards at least) your bardic tradition suggests you focus on another activity: storytelling, loregathering, conversation, satire, etc. Generally speaking, these are much more involving of other players and much more interesting than a quick rhyme.

If you don't like a PC bard's work, you should pan them, with a caveat - that being that in Tuluk the bard PC may be higher on the social ladder than you are and could cause trouble for you. That doesn't mean you shouldn't still gossip quietly or insult them out of earshot - or in earshot, after a few drinks. The disconnect is that just as many bard PCs seem to be more skilled than they should be, because of the player's own writing skill, many bard PCs will seem much more awful than they should be because of their player's own writing skill. That is to say that the PC, having trained and performed poetry for years, should not write as poorly as the player who's just dabbling.

One of my few big pet peeves with bards is seeing someone's songs go up on the local bulletin boards after a performance or two. Odds are that Random Amos is not going to memorize your stuff after a few listens and start spreading it around, not even in Tuluk. If you're proud of a new piece that you've written, find more excuses to perform it in-game. There are generally few times that you should have VNPCs spread your song/poem/story for you.

And finally, read read read the documentation, especially those on music, and if you have access, the Poet's Circle docs. Each city has distinctive forms which most players are not really taking the time to build on. Most PCs should also have a repertoire of the most common basics - like Ladies Love A Stone Mage, in 'Nak, or Wind Blows Over the Plains, in Tuluk - and be prepared to play them often.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jstorrie on July 29, 2006, 04:21:02 PM
OH, also, also!

There is nothing that I find more aggravating than seeing someone recite a poem in-game like

say So I got up on my kank,
say And things smelled really rank,
say My buddy asked, hew what was it?
say Whoops my boots were caked with shit

Maybe this is a bad example because as a jokey limerick you would emphasize the beats, but you never ever read real poetry like that. You read it just as grammar would dictate, so even if you're reading like

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

you would just read that as two normal sentences and not give extra pause-time two the commas at the ends of lines. So similarly, if you're reciting poetry in-game, and you don't want it to sound like a bawdy street-limerick, don't 'split up the lines.' The whole business of iambs, meter, and all that is so that you can have some rhythm in your rhyme without awkwardly pausing all of the time. A well-written piece - at least a well-written piece of the type Zalanthans would be familiar with - has its rhythm built into the internal sequence of rhyme and sonance, not put in as an afterthought with line breaks. Because you don't read out the line breaks.

Anyway, this has been a bit of a roundabout way of saying a pretty simple thing, but if your Zalanthan poetry sounds like a Hallmark card you're on the wrong track. Don't be too sing-songy, if you're trying to play a classy poet.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: bardbard#4 on July 29, 2006, 04:21:38 PM
I definitely agree with what you're saying about bards being too skilled from the beginning.  I played a bard recently-ish and tried to address this issue consciously.  At his first competition, I had him emoting some nervousness, fuck-ups on his instrument, missed pitches with his voice, and I think a few other things.

What was the result?

HE GOT MOTHERFUCKING REAMED OUT BY THE NPC JUDGES AND LOST THE COMPETITION.

It was one of the best atmospheric scenes I have ever played, and I really am thankful that the staff jumped all over what I was trying to do and actually came down hard on the poor sod.  I wish more people would follow my example but...meh.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on July 29, 2006, 05:32:32 PM
Quote from: "jstorrie"OH, also, also!

There is nothing that I find more aggravating than seeing someone recite a poem in-game like

say So I got up on my kank,
say And things smelled really rank,
say My buddy asked, hew what was it?
say Whoops my boots were caked with shit

Maybe this is a bad example because as a jokey limerick you would emphasize the beats, but you never ever read real poetry like that. You read it just as grammar would dictate, so even if you're reading like

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

you would just read that as two normal sentences and not give extra pause-time two the commas at the ends of lines. So similarly, if you're reciting poetry in-game, and you don't want it to sound like a bawdy street-limerick, don't 'split up the lines.' The whole business of iambs, meter, and all that is so that you can have some rhythm in your rhyme without awkwardly pausing all of the time. A well-written piece - at least a well-written piece of the type Zalanthans would be familiar with - has its rhythm built into the internal sequence of rhyme and sonance, not put in as an afterthought with line breaks. Because you don't read out the line breaks.

Anyway, this has been a bit of a roundabout way of saying a pretty simple thing, but if your Zalanthan poetry sounds like a Hallmark card you're on the wrong track. Don't be too sing-songy, if you're trying to play a classy poet.

I don't mind poems sounding like zlanthian halmark cards, i like hallmark cards. I don't think the person is on the 'wrong track' i think the person has another style of writting. I can understand someone's RP being critiqued but not writting styles.

I don't know about anyone else but all this thread has done is possibly ensure i never attempt to play a bard.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Anonymous kank with wings on July 29, 2006, 05:54:01 PM
Here was a post made by someone in another thread that I think has some merit:

Some people mention the difficulty of listening to long "songs".

I suggest that the sing command be remedied to use the slash character / as a divider. The bard could then opt (NOT BE FORCED TO) to sing verse by verse.

So instead of,


The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish:
   "A young apprentice, you hold me to be.."

<bunches of stuff happens>

The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish:
   "caught between a mek and the Silt Sea."

<more random conversation, people drinking and eating>

The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish, trying to rise above the crowd:
   "Hypnotized by you if I should linger.."

<even more messages, as if the crowd is making an attempt to fight back>

The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish, at the top of his voice:
   "staring at the ring about your finger."


There could be:

>sing A young apprentice, you hold me to be../caught between a mek and the Silt Sea./(softly) Hypnotized by you if I should linger../(softly) staring at the ring about your finger.


The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish:
   "A young apprentice, you hold me to be.."
   "caught between a mek and the Silt Sea."
The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish, softly:
   "Hypnotized by you if I should linger.."
The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish, softly:
   "staring at the ring about your finger."

>

The code could limit this to 4 or 6 lines of verse to avoid scrolling others' screens intolerably.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Nao on July 29, 2006, 06:34:32 PM
I find it a lot easier to listen to the style of songs that the bard int he barrel plays - they actually tell a story than to the typical tuluki ones that keep telling you how great tuluk, wine or sex with a kank is and go on for another 20 lines without really saying anything else.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Anonymous Bard on July 29, 2006, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: "Medena"[One of my bards was once booed by a group of PC's in the Tooth and I thought it was awesome!  My bard had a regular gig playing there and he couldn't have cared less about what he considered their boorish behaviour since he still got the 'sid anyway. And OOC'ly I found it wonderful not to just be ignored as if I had never performed.  Ignoring a performance is inconsiderate to the player, not reacting to it in-character.

I agree with this, the only part (in the OP's post) I disagree with is booing a bard simply because of OOC dislike, and supporting this with VNPCs.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jstorrie on July 29, 2006, 08:05:38 PM
Quote from: "Dresan"
I don't mind poems sounding like zlanthian halmark cards, i like hallmark cards. I don't think the person is on the 'wrong track' i think the person has another style of writting. I can understand someone's RP being critiqued but not writting styles.

I wouldn't mind having a unicorn, but I doubt it'll happen. Poetry is simply not recited that way by actual poets and seeing it done is jarring. This isn't a question of writing style - Zalanthan bards aren't even literate. It's a question of speaking style and living human beings do not insert line and page breaks when they speak.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jcarter on July 29, 2006, 08:15:47 PM
I ignore musicians -constantly-. There's a local cafe here that I usually go to that's a constant hangout of my friends. Whenever I go and there's a musician playing, they're the last thing on my mind. Ignoring a bard isn't OOC or anything. If anything, it's more realistic than sitting there and listening intently to their every word.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Quirk on July 29, 2006, 08:57:38 PM
I'm going to venture a "hell yeah" here. Now, I haven't played in Tuluk since my return, but I remember bards well from back in the day. Once, playing a noble, I had to judge a bardic competition. Only supreme self-control prevented me from emoting gnawing off a limb to escape.

I've always found it very rare that a bard coming into a relatively busy tavern, sitting down, and starting to sing leads to a positive RP experience for me. Firstly, there's the extra spam. Secondly, there's the problem that even well-written song lyrics can be dull to read, and are usually distracting from whatever I was focused on getting my character to do. Thirdly, many of the song lyrics that assault my screen are not well-written. And fourth and worst of all is that some bards are power-emoters who call up rapturous VNPC applause and leave me in no doubt through their emotes that I'm hearing the most beautiful song ever. I think Northlander's suggestion of introducing a few booing VNPCs to balance matters against those last mentioned has sincere merit.

(There are exceptions, of course. My fondest bard-related memory took place shortly after the Rebellion. A bard came into the Sanctuary, sat down, and inflicted a butchered, "Zalanthanised" version of U2's "Sunday, Bloody Sunday" on us. Questions were asked about what exactly he was trying to say, and he responded by condemning the violence of the terrorist rebels. The bar was full of ex-Rebels, many of whom post-Rebellion held important civic posts. The bard was taken outside and disposed of brutally, with full militia sanction. Seeing a crappy bard get a deserved and on-the-spot comeuppance was hugely OOCly gratifying.)

LoD's idea makes a lot of sense to me, providing a convenient way of letting us filter out bad bards. Northlander's suggestion of street music I applaud likewise.

Yes, playing a bard is OOCly far harder than it should be. You as a player have to be entertaining to the rest of us as players, not just as characters. It's unfair, but if you're going to turn our characters from actors in a scene into spectators, you need to put on a show worth seeing. A few bards are capable of this. The rest we need to jeer and boo until their bards stop making music or become better. It's harsh, but if it preserves the rest of the PC population from having their conversations hijacked by Hallmark rhymes and emoted perfect pitch, it's very necessary.

I'm done with criticism; now it's time for the constructive part.

Ballads are the way forward for singers. If you can tell a story in your song, particularly an interesting story your audience don't know, you justify your existence, and we all suddenly become more inclined to tip. We come to Arm for narrative, not introspection. Songs that have us wondering what will happen in the next verse just don't seem as long, and might just encourage us to stand outside a tavern to find out.

It doesn't have to be a song. Offer your services as a storyteller, and sit at a table with people, and tell them a story. Please don't fall back on the Zalanthan equivalent of Goldilocks, but be imaginative, be satirical. If it helps, write down a few story seeds to get you started and keep them around - e.g. the adventurer who found Steinal, and what followed him home; the elf who was a templar for a day; the feud between the gurths and the tregils.

Heck, if you can satirise current events with impromptu short bursts of theatre, go to it. But make them short, and collect your wages from the people who wish you to get across their point of view, not the bar patrons. (And, if you want to live a while, be careful you don't attach the characters of your scurrilous story too closely to their real Zalanthan counterparts).

Edited: because Quirk is an incurable grammatical pedant
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on July 29, 2006, 09:19:54 PM
Quote from: "jstorrie"
I wouldn't mind having a unicorn.

I'm happy for you, really i am.

Quote from: "jstorrie"

Poetry is simply not recited that way by actual poets and seeing it done is jarring. This isn't a question of writing style - Zalanthan bards aren't even literate. It's a question of speaking style and living human beings do not insert line and page breaks when they speak.

You are critiquing the way information is OOCLY being inputing into a text  Mud. Therefore it is the writing style of the player, who has taken the time to write a piece for the game, not their roleplaying you are talking about.

How actual poets recite things in RL? I Don't know. Depends the poet, the poem...what i do know is that in the game it would be more or less done through 'writting' emotes and descriptions, describing the voice and the body movements. Again you were describing how you think someone should be writting things into the text mud meaning you aren't judging their roleplaying your judging their writting style.

That said if someone has taken the time to write something, and they think splitting the lines will give what they wrote some more effect or make it clearer...then they should go for it. I prefer seeing "halmark' type verses with some emotes as opposed to having to wait a while and getting hit by a large chunk of data. Its easier to read and follow along that way.

If a character wants to ignore a bard, thats icly (and oocly) their business, i have no problem with that but some of us do want to listen. Bards of any type have always been more entertaining while sitting at a tavern then being spammed by people playing footsies or worse... the angry brooding non social PC sitting in the corner.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Quirk on July 29, 2006, 09:26:12 PM
Quote from: "Dresan"Bards of any type have always been more entertaining while sitting at a tavern then being spammed by people playing footsies or worse... the angry brooding non social PC sitting in the corner.

To espouse a contrary view, in my eyes bad poetry really is worse, much worse, than no poetry at all (this goes double for "Zalanthan" versions of songs I recognise). I would love having greater ability to ignore bards I dislike. They do a lot more harm to my RP experience than brooding antisocial PCs do.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jstorrie on July 29, 2006, 10:28:08 PM
Dresan, are you suggesting that if I have my PCs split up all of their sentences in strange and jarring ways, for no roleplaying reason, with unnecessarily bad grammar, that's fine because it's just my writing style?

Portioning your poetry into one or two sentences isn't wall-of-text, it's properly conveying how your character is speaking. I have no IC recourse when I see something split along artificial line breaks than to have my PCs think 'krath's fires, that one sure doesn't know how to recite a poem. what a stupid amateur.' I think it is likely that not everyone is aiming to play a perpetually stupid amateur. This is why I am pointing out that poems are not recited with line breaks. I am not suggesting that they are bad writers (maybe they are, maybe they aren't). I'm saying that the way that they are having their characters act is not consistent with what they are trying to do and as such if they wish to improve the quality of their roleplaying they may wish to refine their PCs' actions so as to more accurately communicate what they are trying to do.

PCs generally don't recite poetry very often, though, so this is mostly a moot point. I was just trying to inject a bit more information into the dicussion for other peoples' benefits.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on July 30, 2006, 12:42:13 AM
Quote from: "jstorrie"Dresan, are you suggesting that if I have my PCs split up all of their sentences in strange and jarring ways, for no roleplaying reason, with unnecessarily bad grammar, that's fine because it's just my writing style?

Portioning your poetry into one or two sentences isn't wall-of-text, it's properly conveying how your character is speaking. I have no IC recourse when I see something split along artificial line breaks than to have my PCs think 'krath's fires, that one sure doesn't know how to recite a poem. what a stupid amateur.' I think it is likely that not everyone is aiming to play a perpetually stupid amateur. This is why I am pointing out that poems are not recited with line breaks. I am not suggesting that they are bad writers (maybe they are, maybe they aren't). I'm saying that the way that they are having their characters act is not consistent with what they are trying to do and as such if they wish to improve the quality of their roleplaying they may wish to refine their PCs' actions so as to more accurately communicate what they are trying to do.

PCs generally don't recite poetry very often, though, so this is mostly a moot point. I was just trying to inject a bit more information into the dicussion for other peoples' benefits.

Usually people start new lines to emulate pauses in speech. What i'm saying is seeing a poem being conveyed(this one is short but hopefully portrays the general idea):

say Roses are red.
say Voilets are blue.
say Sugar is sweet.
say And you are you.

say Roses are red, voilets are blue
say Sugar is sweet and so are you.

say Roses are red, voilets are blue, sugar is sweet and so are you.

does not bother bother me at all since being a bard is hard enough, everyone seems to be a critic, on top of the usual is the piece too long or too boring or too spammy hardships some bards go through. Either way it is not bad gammer to me, one seems to have more pauses thats about it.

Though jstorrie i do understand what your saying...its just that how a piece is oocly being inputting does not distract me from enjoying it or icly thinking less of the poet. Apparently thats not the same for everyone, but   thats life, everyone is different.

Now i'm just thinking of the stories my PCs has told, thinking of going back through the logs, were they too long, too boring, was i focing PCs to shut up and listen...were they just fucking idle and ignored it. Were the sentences grammatically correct or just plain jarring.None of them left til the story was done and thanked my PC for telling it so thats something but eh.  :(

EDITTED Bit of grammer.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: elvenchipmunk on July 30, 2006, 01:01:54 AM
I typically am annoyed whenever a bard interrupts what I'm doing in a tavern. That's just me. I only see 'songs' IG as spam, yet I still almost always play in Tuluk.

Something I seem to remember reading about in the OP's post was something about being rude and booing the character off the stage etc.

Thing is, often the bards playing the songs have 'connections' (or claim to) with templars, nobles, bad-ass winged demons who can spit liquid nitrogen into your eye sockets, etc. Therefore making it unfeasible to do this unless your character wishes for a swift head-chopping (or subtle one...work that one around your brain).

While I don't think having lots of bards in the game hurts it, I certainly -do think that having the amount of...classy? beautiful? picturesque? (however you'd like to describe it) in game as can be seen with our current situation can indeed hurt the game. Although I realize that sounds harsh and I seem like a heartless jack-ass, keep in mind that I simply mean it hurts the game only a little, and only in one aspect; It takes grittiness from the game, Tuluk specifically, which leads to people calling Tuluk the 'pussy-town' or what-have-you.

I would just like to see more of the 'har har har kankin's fun let's go kill ourselves a skinny' bards in the game. You know, the ones with rotten teeth, funny accents, funnily pronounced words and very little talent. It's the effort that counts, sometimes.

That's my take on it. ENJOY.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Reiloth on July 30, 2006, 03:41:39 AM
Having played bards in the past, and playing one currently, its really distressing to see all these harsh criticisms of poetry IG and bards in general.

I think Quirk had the most constructive things to say. Ballads, Storytelling, and straying away from singing about how sad you are that your mate died of the pox.

I think that bards, both in the North and the South, add a considerable amount to Armageddon. If the game on a day to day basis is prose, then Bards add the poetry. I love sitting and listening to a bard tell a good story, hell I love sitting and watching a Kuraci veteran tell a story. I love listening to poetry and what have you.

I agree that it is ridiculous for an Apprentice or even Seeker bard to enter a tavern, thinking s/he is the shit, and perform a song, and throw down the mic, expecting people to jump up in racous applause and throw money at them. I think a tenative bard, being asked by a Noble to perform, doing so, and humbly thanking those who appreciated it, and averting his gaze from the PC's, NPC's, and VNPC's who booed him or are talking shit about him, is just as plausible, and i think even more realistic.

I also think that Bards really shouldn't start out as know-it-alls. I love bards that fuck up. I fuck up all the time. I'm not an ego-maniac that thinks he can learn no more. I think it would be silly to play an Apprentice of the Circle who can play at the level of a Master Bard, according to his emotes and those amazing songs that bring people to tears.

i'm just a bit perturbed that theres such a harsh view of Bards, which I think add a great deal to the oral history and culture of both Allanak and Tuluk.

I think putting on IC boards in a City (A CITY) of people, of your "really popular songs" is tooting your own horn. If I wrote a song called "Shitty shit mc shitty shit and his travelling banjo kazoo" and decided "Hell, this song is fucking the SHIT. LITERALLY." and then decided "Well, Everyone in (city) LOVES this SHIT. ITS FUGGIN AWESOME!! THEY LOVE IT SO MUCH, THEY MEMORIZE THE LYRICS, EVEN THOUGH THEY CAN'T WRITE!" Thats ridic. pure ridic. Even if a Master Bard wrote an amazing song, the plebians of Tuluk would not worship him or her enough to memorize every word of this Masterpiece.

In sum, I think if Bards, particularly in Tuluk, read the Docs a bit closer, stuck to the basics, sang more of the classics, made mistakes just as people in combat get hit from time to time, and weren't automatically the shit at a competition especially, all y'all would want us around.

just a bit of rambling thought.

EDIT: I think watching a Bard in a Tavern is comprable in annoyingness to a half-giant RPing that he's "slightly slow but not retarded". There's lots of room for improvement in all of our roleplay, but i'd rather listen to a Bard sing a song he spent two hours writing, then listen to hunters talk about sandstorms.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: marko on July 30, 2006, 07:43:05 AM
I'm not sure why there is so much distaste for bards.  Bards put a lot of energy into their characters and, in Tuluk, are rewarded by the general populace for that.   According to all documentation bards are well respected and liked by the general population - that means that even if you OOCly dislike bards your character should appreciate good performances and good attempts.  

Bards in Tuluk are encouraged to street perform (it is in their documentation) and are encouraged to use the stages already in the game.  Two of the five taverns in Tuluk have written stages and another two have virtual stages (at least from what I've seen done) - they should be used.  

I find that when a bard performs without being asked to then that leads to this sense of "disrupting" the roleplaying of a scene.  I would encourage bards to make use of the performance areas and to also make use of Poets' Circle (yes, I realize Poets' Circle is a bit out of the way and would be so much better in the red commons) but it is there to be used.  

When there are a bunch of bards in Tuluk it is nice to see them performing in the areas where there are stages set up - or doing some street performances.  

I always appreciate bards and all their efforts.  I think bards are a very challenging and difficult role - one of the hardest to play for any length of time in the game.  Anyone who sticks with a bardic character and perseveres through the 'hate' to achieve greatness... you have my utmost respect.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: veryalien on July 30, 2006, 10:44:29 AM
pick a character that isn't very exciting and you'll generally get the adventuring sort that don't care.

not much to be done about it.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Barzalene on July 30, 2006, 10:53:44 AM
I think the hardest part is when you oocly know that you have no great talent to this barding stuff. So, I guess my question is, should only rl poets and great flowery emoters play bards, or is there room for those of us who think in sound bytes on the scene?
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jcarter on July 30, 2006, 11:15:06 AM
Quote from: "Barzalene"I think the hardest part is when you oocly know that you have no great talent to this barding stuff. So, I guess my question is, should only rl poets and great flowery emoters play bards, or is there room for those of us who think in sound bytes on the scene?

I don't think anyone really wants poetry and flowery emotes for bards. They just want something that's actually interesting, be it a story or whatever.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: on July 30, 2006, 12:30:42 PM
Quote from: "elvenchipmunk"I typically am annoyed whenever a bard interrupts what I'm doing in a tavern. That's just me. I only see 'songs' IG as spam, yet I still almost always play in Tuluk.

It just struck me how people always think they lay the only claim to "acceptable" activity in a tavern.  It's a TAVERN. Meetings. Singers (not just bards, maybe drunken Bynners). Brawls. Arguments.  NOISE. LOTS OF NOISE. To me, the only way a bard singing would -interrupt- you is if they sat down at your table and launched into Zalanthas' version of Moon River.

The way I see it is rather like someone putting money in the jukebox. You either say "Oh I like that one" and listen, or you say "Fuck I'm sick of that song!" and return to whatever you were doing.

I've never played a bard in Arm, but I have a rather well-lauded one in another MUD.  Having your efforts at roleplaying your profession (duh- bards perform, good bad or indifferent) dismissed as "SPAM" is discouraging and well... rude. It implies that reciting or singing is on the same level as spamming skills or taking fifty arrows out of your sack and putting them into your quiver.

Regardless of the player's talent level, they are at least -trying- to roleplay. Something all of us are trying to do as well, and we don't always hit the mark, either.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Cuusardo on July 30, 2006, 01:22:08 PM
Having played a bard in the past, I agree that it is probably one of the most  challenging roles in the game.  I personally wrote a lot of my bard's material, and let me tell you, the words don't just fly out of my head onto a piece of paper.  I worked VERY hard on these things.  Sometimes I was lazy and took existing songs (usually more obscure ones that the general population probably hasn't heard before) and Zalanthanized them.  It is a little disappointing to know that a lot of players regard such performances as nothing more than spam, because like myself, a lot of players of bards put a lot of thought and work into what they're doing.

I also feel that bards are seriously underutilized.  I found countless opportunities that people could have used my bard PC for things, but they did not.  And it's not as though I could have just flat out told these people, "Did it ever occur to you that you could ask me for this, or to do that for you?"  I think bards should be used more to further the political agendas of people, or pumped for information, or even just to make fun of someone that someone else doesn't like.  And that's only scratching the surface.  Bards have the potential to be the most versatile PCs in the game, and the general belief about bards is that they are simply performers and nothing more.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Concerning Allanak, I too believe that people in general completely disregard the fact that there is indeed a following of the arts.  (Fale, anyone?)  I mean come on, there's a tavern called THE BARD'S BARREL.  I highly doubt it would be there if people didn't want it there.  I can understand that Allanakis would not consider the arts to be the life blood of their city, and would probably never give a bunch of bards their own piece of land, but they would still enjoy the occasional performance, as well as the other things a bard has to offer.  I for one would like to see more bards in Allanak, especially the smelly, gritty, bawdy bards who spin tales about the AoD Sergeant who killed a Gaj in the arena, or the Red Robe that captured a northern noble and made a slave out of him.

Something else I would really like to see in the game is more travelling bards.  In Tuluk, bards are encouraged to visit other places, and are rewarded for doing so.  I'd love to see more bards throw on their dirty armor, grab a sword, and hop on their kanks bound for some new and exciting place.  (I recall a pair of Tuluki bards who did this often, and had some great stories to tell about it.)  Bards that aren't afraid to get dirty and explore are awesome!
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Barzalene on July 30, 2006, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: "Cuusardo"Having played a bard in the past, I agree that it is probably one of the most  challenging roles in the game.  I personally wrote a lot of my bard's material, and let me tell you, the words don't just fly out of my head onto a piece of paper.  I worked VERY hard on these things.  Sometimes I was lazy and took existing songs (usually more obscure ones that the general population probably hasn't heard before) and Zalanthanized them.  It is a little disappointing to know that a lot of players regard such performances as nothing more than spam, because like myself, a lot of players of bards put a lot of thought and work into what they're doing.

/quote]

I wouldn't feel too disappointed. If I were hypothetically playing a bard, and hypothetically working hard on my performances, I'd take satisfaction in knowing that I'd done the work. Whether others appreciated it or not is another matter. For instance, you couldn't pay me to listen to Enya, but s/he is well regarded and I have no doubt they work hard at their music. It's just not for me. That hardly invalidates his/her accomplishments.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Cuusardo on July 30, 2006, 02:21:14 PM
I'm not saying that it invalidates people and their work.  I am saying that a sense of disappointment comes when you work really hard at something and people just blow it off as spam.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Barzalene on July 30, 2006, 03:05:58 PM
Quote from: "I"I wouldn't feel too disappointed. If I were hypothetically playing a bard, and hypothetically working hard on my performances, I'd take satisfaction in knowing that I'd done the work. Whether others appreciated it or not is another matter. For instance, you couldn't pay me to listen to Enya, but s/he is well regarded and I have no doubt they work hard at their music. It's just not for me. That hardly invalidates his/her accomplishments.

Quote from: "Cuusardo"I'm not saying that it invalidates people and their work.  I am saying that a sense of disappointment comes when you work really hard at something and people just blow it off as spam.

I don't get the distinction... but ok.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jcarter on July 30, 2006, 03:12:51 PM
Quote from: "Cuusardo"I'm not saying that it invalidates people and their work.  I am saying that a sense of disappointment comes when you work really hard at something and people just blow it off as spam.

So what do you want people to do? Force themselves to be interested?
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on July 30, 2006, 03:14:30 PM
No, force them to roleplay their characters...and for example, characters from Tuluk have been raised KNOWING that art and bards are awesome.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: elvenchipmunk on July 30, 2006, 03:24:08 PM
Quote from: "spawnloser"No, force them to roleplay their characters...and for example, characters from Tuluk have been raised KNOWING that art and bards are awesome.

(BTW my comment is not sarcastic in any way. I truthfully want the answer)

Can someone provide the help file saying this is indeed true? I thought I saw a Tuluki Roleplay helpfile and thought it might be in there, but couldn't find it. Is there another file I'm overlooking?

And also I don't think all characters in Tuluk were raised knowing bards are awesome. Some were raised to hate them and other such adjectives. It depends on your character.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Tlaloc on July 30, 2006, 04:18:04 PM
Quote from: "[url=http://www.armageddon.org/general/city.htmlThe General Documentation on Cities[/url]"]The society of Tuluk is based on strong ritual and symbolism. In all parts of its culture, levels of knowledge are unusually high, yet practical applications of knowledge were few. The citizens of the north have a well known hunger for art of any kind and of any quality. Magickers are shun like evil itself, and usually killed on sight.

Music, in this case, is an art form, and is, in fact, something most Tuluki enjoy like to have around. I'm sure not all Tuluki enjoy it, but it would be (in my opinion) a rare individual who didn't. This includes having an appreciation (at the very least) for crap art (or music), but those guys are passed over and live poor, impoverished lives.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: elvenchipmunk on July 30, 2006, 04:20:03 PM
Quote from: "Tlaloc"
Quote from: "[url=http://www.armageddon.org/general/city.htmlThe General Documentation on Cities[/url]"]The society of Tuluk is based on strong ritual and symbolism. In all parts of its culture, levels of knowledge are unusually high, yet practical applications of knowledge were few. The citizens of the north have a well known hunger for art of any kind and of any quality. Magickers are shun like evil itself, and usually killed on sight.

Music, in this case, is an art form, and is, in fact, something most Tuluki enjoy like to have around. I'm sure not all Tuluki enjoy it, but it would be (in my opinion) a rare individual who didn't. This includes having an appreciation (at the very least) for crap art (or music), but those guys are passed over and live poor, impoverished lives.

Interesting. Of course, people can have very different likes in music, right? As in, not -everyone- likes the romantic/moving poems. Tulukis simply like art in one or many forms, but not necessarily music?

Edit: Could some citizens' like for music simply be that they envy bards because they're rich? As in, they don't particularly like the music, but they pretend to like it and smile and all that stuff because they wish they had the talent or something? I just find it hard to believe that Tulukis not liking music is such a rare occurence. I mean, they're all people, and people have likes and dislikes.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Akaramu on July 30, 2006, 05:24:54 PM
People who play Tulukis despite an OOC dislike for MUD art puzzle me.

Also, I don't see how music 'spam' is more disruptive than the spam other PCs generate.  :?
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Cuusardo on July 30, 2006, 06:23:57 PM
The "spam" a performance generates adds to roleplay and atmosphere.  The "spam" created by someone sitting in a tavern that puts twenty chunks of stone, fifteen twigs, and twelve bolts of cloth into a container clutters up the screen.  Big difference.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Tlaloc on July 30, 2006, 06:42:33 PM
Quote from: "elvenchipmunk"
Interesting. Of course, people can have very different likes in music, right? As in, not -everyone- likes the romantic/moving poems. Tulukis simply like art in one or many forms, but not necessarily music?

Yes, and I was actually going to post on this very fact, after thinking about it for a bit. I think it's bit unrealistic (or at least, incredibly rare) for someone to 'not like music'. People aren't like that. How many people do you know actively hate music of all kinds? Instead, you usually get people who either love classical (and hate rock), love country (and hate rap), or love polkas (and hate taste).

On Zalanthas, this would be no different. Your character might hate singing, but is ready to get down and boogie at the next drum circle. A hard-core, fanatical Sun Legionairre might hate the political satire of the Elkinhym, thinking it walks too close to sedition, but might just love Irofel balads about how Allanak got its ass kicked that one time.

QuoteEdit: Could some citizens' like for music simply be that they envy bards because they're rich? As in, they don't particularly like the music, but they pretend to like it and smile and all that stuff because they wish they had the talent or something? I just find it hard to believe that Tulukis not liking music is such a rare occurence. I mean, they're all people, and people have likes and dislikes.

Uh, sure? This is entirelly possible, but again, I doubt there is a character in the world who hates all music. It's possible, just like it's possible to see an elf riding a kank...just very, very unlikley and I think there would have to be some exceptional circustances as to why someone would just hate music of all forms.

Edited to add: I should add that I think it -is- possible (and more likely) that someone in Tuluk could be born and raised a Tuluki, and just hate Tuluki music (maybe they love Arabet tunes, or secretly love those Allanaki dirges). However, it should be noted that musical tastes are often inherited through culture and upbringing...so again, there would  have to be some sort of exceptional circumstance to explain why a Tuluki born citizen who is patriotic in every other way hates Tuluki music.

I think muscial tastes are a great way to round out a character, and encourage everyone to consider what your character likes to listen to as a wonderful way to make a more three-dimensional character.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: elvenchipmunk on July 30, 2006, 06:45:46 PM
I think that clears lots of things up, Tlaloc (for me). Thanks for the help file and clarification.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Quirk on July 30, 2006, 07:34:26 PM
Given that Tulukis are exposed to a much wider range of art and music than other people, you'd expect them to be more discriminating. A bard that wows them in Red Storm might not even rate a tip in Tuluk, and even the good bards will appeal to different tastes.

I don't personally rate bard spam on the whole as worse than spam-eating or spam-crafting in a tavern. It of course varies depending on the bard; some are producing great stuff, and you only regard it as "spam" when it's interfering with conversations that are important to your PC. It's not possible to tune it out as easily as real music; to borrow Allegory's example, it's as though someone puts coins in the jukebox, and it makes the person you're speaking to intersperse song lyrics into their sentences. We're somewhat more used to this in the context of the 'Net than in normal conversation, so it's tolerable, if irritating.

The worst bards, however, are up there with someone spamming an inappropriate command with a typo in the echo. Stilted butchery of rhyme and scansion is every bit as painful to those of us who happen to like poetry as typos are to grammar fetishists or wrong notes to musicians, and if the subject matter is also jarringly irrelevant to the character listening to it, then we swiftly end up with an Armageddon version of Cacofonix from Asterix.

Good poetry is astonishingly hard to write; the collected works of many of the great poets will fit in a book of a few hundred pages, with one poem per page, and that book, which represents a lifetime's effort, will for any individual reader contain poems that the reader does not care for. No-one should be ashamed of being unable to produce great poems, or even readable ones. And readable poetry is what you need if your song lyrics are unsupported by music - unless of course you've got the saving grace of the ballad, which is narrative. If the content of your song is interesting in its own right, and the song is being heard at a time when it's not a distraction, people won't care so much about technical polish. If however it's a song about how sad you feel at weekends, it had better be either funny or polished if we're to care.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Quirk on July 30, 2006, 07:48:59 PM
Oh, and an analogy came to mind.

Imagine if Armageddon were some sort of live action game, in which we all met up and acted out our characters. I'll give you a moment to recover from the hideous embarrassment that that mental image probably invokes.

Now, there are people in this live action fest who want to roleplay being musicians. They have instruments with them to play on. Unfortunately, many of them have never learned how to play those instruments. They are not deterred by this, but pluck discordant strings and make trumpets sound like damaged bagpipes. They then complain of other people's RP; it seems that everyone around them is making excuses to avoid their presence when they're playing, and they know for a fact that some of those characters avoiding them should love music.

Someone has to tell them that hard work on any particular song of theirs is not going to avail if they don't know how to make music. Someone has to tell them that the "atmosphere" they're creating doesn't make the rest of us feel more immersed in our RP, but distracts from it. Someone has to tell them that they have to find a way for their bard to be culturally relevant without trying to inveigle the rest of us into pretending that they know how to play their instrument. And all this has to be done without driving away the people wandering around with instruments they actually know how to play.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Anonymous kank with wings on July 30, 2006, 07:52:49 PM
I would like to hear more songs with historical material, such as about events that actually took place, great warriors and the like.

Start with Thrain Ironsword and make a drumming dwarvish warchant about him.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on July 30, 2006, 11:03:08 PM
Bards don't spam. Its really rude and insulting to be referring to someone's RP this way esspecially when often they took the time to create it.

Seriously, people go to tarverns they go to talk and interact, my interaction is no less important then anyone else's. If i'm talking to someone, we could be spamming away says and tells. That bothers you? That disrupt your 'important' conversation? Too stupid to keep up with the 'spam'? Tough. Deal with it or get up and go continue your oh so important RP somewhere else.

You don't like what the bard is playing. Deal with it ICly. Since it really does fall under the same catagory as my PC slaughtering a precious character of yours, the catagory being 'No One Gives A Shit'. Otherwise, while i understand that some of you are probably incapable of this, try to have some consideration for the fact that a bard's 'spam' probably took them longer to come up with then emote of walking up to the bar and sitting down.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on July 31, 2006, 05:45:00 AM
I think the point Quirk was making was this: If you can't make your bard interesting, don't play a bard.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Anonymous Bard on July 31, 2006, 06:28:25 AM
Ironically, I got my first player kudos for a bardic performance.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Quirk on July 31, 2006, 07:01:13 AM
Quote from: "Dresan"Bards don't spam. Its really rude and insulting to be referring to someone's RP this way esspecially when often they took the time to create it.

That was my intention, yes. If someone's going to inflict bad, self-indulgent poetry on me without my consent, I'm more than entitled to be acerbic. And as far as taking time goes, it may take you time and effort to evacuate your bowels, but I'm still not going to praise the result.

Please reread my musician analogy, and think about it. Are you really going to suggest we should sit around pretending jangling messes of wrong notes are music?

Quote from: "Dresan"Seriously, people go to tarverns they go to talk and interact, my interaction is no less important then anyone else's.

Key word here: interaction. Unsolicited monologues aren't usually classed as interaction.

Quote from: "Dresan"If i'm talking to someone, we could be spamming away says and tells. That bothers you? That disrupt your 'important' conversation?

If you're talking to somebody else, then even if it's irrelevant to my character, you've got a good enough reason to be inconveniencing me with screen scroll that I won't be grumpy. If, however, you enter a crowded tavern and start talking to yourself via "say" as fast as you can, yes, that would bother me too.

Quote from: "Dresan"Too stupid to keep up with the 'spam'?

You seem to misunderstand badly. Spam is a needless inconvenience you have to work round. It can be worked around, and we all do it, but it doesn't make it less irritating.

Quote from: "Dresan"You don't like what the bard is playing. Deal with it ICly.

And this brings us full circle back to Northlander's suggestion that we jeer and boo bards that OOCly annoy us. I take it that you are, after all, in accord with this idea?

Quote from: "Dresan"Otherwise, while i understand that some of you are probably incapable of this, try to have some consideration for the fact that a bard's 'spam' probably took them longer to come up with then emote of walking up to the bar and sitting down.

Frankly, I don't care. If you come into a crowded tavern where people are trying to RP and spam-post some crappy poem you wrote earlier, you're still a nuisance to everyone around you, no matter how long it took you to write. It's disgustingly rude.

If, on the other hand, you check with people in advance, and have at least one person in the audience who wants to hear your song before you begin, then your behaviour becomes justifiable. Better still is to be playing in some place where opting out of hearing you doesn't require leaving the main RP hotspot.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Quirk on July 31, 2006, 07:24:04 AM
Quote from: "spawnloser"I think the point Quirk was making was this: If you can't make your bard interesting, don't play a bard.

Nearly my point.

If you can't be sure your bard is interesting, please don't inflict your bard on us without asking first.

Parading up and down the tavern, the shaggy-bearded bard exclaims, in sirihish,
 "Hey! Who wants to hear a song? I've got a sly new song for you, a song about the Kuraci!"

Seizing onto a crust of bread, the fat-cheeked dwarf shouts, in sirihish,
 "Not me! Get your arse out of here!"

The fat-cheeked dwarf lobs a crust of bread at the shaggy-bearded bard.

Ducking to avoid the projectile, the shaggy-bearded bard says, in sirihish,
 "But you'll -love- this one!"

Scoffing, the fat-cheeked dwarf says to the shaggy-bearded bard, in sirihish,
 "That's what you said about the "Ballad of Grignr". Get out!"
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Spoon on July 31, 2006, 08:22:44 AM
I think a lot of you people who are bashing bards really need to see what it's like on the other side. In the Bard's of the Poet's Circle, you are expected, almost pressured to roleplay public performances. It also requires a great deal of work and creativity to play a bard, so when I see threads like this the sheer lack of respect for the players of bards doesn't make me happy. It makes me not want to log in and be part of the armageddon community.

The most exciting and interesting characters I've ever run into were bards, and they made Arm much more interesting for me. I don't like sitting through hour long poems and songs, but I dealt with it, and still do, by myself without insulting anyone. These threads must make those players feel like crap, like their contribution isn't appreciated at all by the playerbase. Then they probably decide the playerbase is made up of a bunch of wankers, and don't log in ever again. This thread isn't going to solve any problems, it's just going to piss people off.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on July 31, 2006, 08:25:32 AM
Wow i wonder what you think goes through some people's heads when they are making character's then.

'Gee, i think i'll make a PCs that boring to me and to others. I'll put time into making a poem or song just to make sure its extra crappy, annoying and completely uninteresting. I better be carefully think my roleplaying might be interesting to some, can't have that.'

You seem to have missed a little bit of logic there. I don't think anyone wants to make a bard or any character thats not interesting to them or to others. I think people try their best, just that their best might not please everyone.

All i was trying to say is that their RPing has just as much right to be there as yours does, solo or not, and whether anyone OOCLY and ICLY likes it or not. I don't remember being asked if people could start their own little RPing in the room my PC was standing in, but guess what the world doesn't work that way.

That and the fact that people should take in consideration that the person did put some work into it, very likely attempting their best to make it good and enjoyable. However since it seems extreme hard for people to grasp the fact that a person may not intentionally have wanted to have make something that sounded crappy to a few....well i'm not holding my breathe.

Going elsewhere else to perform though? Maybe the day i can stand up go up to your PC and ask you to go RP somewhere else because I think that PC isn't very interesting and its RP is not only crappy but also spammy to me.  After that i'd probably have to ask for permission to backstab someone in a tavern, just in case the backstab and emotes is considered spammy and uninteresting by some or worse it disrupts someone's important RPing. :roll:

I digress though.

I think its almost a moot point your making since most Bards ask if its okay to perform and usually at least one person wants to hear it. However I have a feeling i'll have to be moving more and more to isolated rooms to see a performance. Oh well, guess i'll be missing more of that oh so interesting tavern RP consisting of idle PCs, flirting PCs and oh yeah the talk those god aweful sandstorms.
Title: Bards.
Post by: LoD on July 31, 2006, 09:57:48 AM
Quote from: "Dresan"All i was trying to say is that their RPing has just as much right to be there as yours does, solo or not, and whether anyone OOCLY and ICLY likes it or not. I don't remember being asked if people could start their own little RPing in the room my PC was standing in, but guess what the world doesn't work that way.

First, Dresan, you should keep the passion of your posts and remove the exaggeration and sarcasm; they will be better received.  I understand you think bards, people that you enjoy (or perhaps just respect), are being attacked, but that's not quite the case.  Quirk isn't making blanket statements for every bard in the game.

He's talking about players of bards wishing to be liked, tolerated, and considered "talented artists" whether or not they have talent.  The lack of coded playing/singing skills makes it impossible for players to discern whether someone is practiced or talented by IC terms.  All they need are emotes.

I agree with several of the posters in that bards are a difficult role to play because they inherit a responsibility to entertain not only the characters, but the players as well.  And that's no small feat.  That requires paying specific attention not only to IC content of a performance, but also the OOC method of delivery.

Are my sentences too short?  Does the song run too long?  Have I lost the player's attention?  Is this dragging on?  Is my mispelling or poor grammar taking away from the presentation?  In RL, people can tune out music because it's appealing to only a couple senses (sound, and maybe touch if it's live).  In the game, people have to read every sentence of every line of every poem when a bard decides to perform, whether they want to or not.

Sometimes this can be 30-40 lines of one-sided text.

Tables can be used to stem the flow of overlapping conversation in a crowded room, but bards always seem to choose to deliver their pieces to the entire tavern.  Every single PC/NPC/VNPC is given the opportunity to listen to every word this person has to say, whether the character or player cares to listen.  Some people consider that abusive, irritating, and/or irresponsible on the part of the player.  And they're mostly the ones driving this conversation.

If measures aren't taken to allow bards a coded vehicle through which they can perform (i.e. stages, etc...) that allows players to tune them out if they so desire, then players like Quirk are asking bards to be a little more responsible in their estimates of:

:arrow: How good their character really is at singing/performing.
:arrow: How good their material is ICly/OOCly.
:arrow: How appropriate it is for their song to be heard by everyone.
:arrow: How important their bard is compared to the NPC/VNPC bards.
:arrow: How long should a given song/performance last.

I've played two successful bard characters, and written other bard songs that were preformed by others in game.  I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.  And while I don't think this is quite the epidemic some of posts make it out to be, there's certainly room for improvement.

-LoD
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 31, 2006, 11:28:23 AM
I have only one comment to this whole conversation:

While I'm not inherently opposed to LoD's idea of a coded stage that can be rented by a bard wanting to perform on it, I do think that if bards are required to do so and the stage costs money to rent, then bardic performances in Tuluk (other than those specifically requested by a powerful character) will probably stop altogether. 25 coin to rent a stage is not a small matter to a bard when most performances are not financially rewarded at all.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Cuusardo on July 31, 2006, 11:45:46 AM
Quote from: "Spoon"I think a lot of you people who are bashing bards really need to see what it's like on the other side. In the Bard's of the Poet's Circle, you are expected, almost pressured to roleplay public performances. It also requires a great deal of work and creativity to play a bard

I could not agree more.

Playing a Circle bard is kind of like playing a leader, without a lot of the perks that a leader PC is entitled to.  The reality is you have to work a hell of a lot harder to earn your living and to earn respect from people.
Title: Stage.
Post by: LoD on July 31, 2006, 11:57:15 AM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"While I'm not inherently opposed to LoD's idea of a coded stage that can be rented by a bard wanting to perform on it, I do think that if bards are required to do so and the stage costs money to rent, then bardic performances in Tuluk (other than those specifically requested by a powerful character) will probably stop altogether. 25 coin to rent a stage is not a small matter to a bard when most performances are not financially rewarded at all.

People always exaggerate how things will "stop altogether" when there's a proposed model change.

The stage idea is just that, an idea.  There are some interesting IC developments that could come about as a result of these stages.  For example, the stages could be manned by an NPC bouncer/guard.  Let's explore some of the possibilities:

1. Bards/Performers of no affiliation/sponsorship would pay a nominal fee for every desired use of the stage.

2. Bards/Performers who have reached a certain level of proficiency and rank in a sponsored role would be allowed to purchase a "Stage license" that would allow them to use common stages without a fee.

3. Great bards/performers that the Imms feel might have gained a certain level of fame/reputation could perhaps even be announced by the NPC bouncer/guard when they take the stage.

Ramshackle Tavern [NES]

Unaffiliated Bard

>enter stage
The stout, barrel chested man shakes his head, pushing you back.
The stout, barrel chested man says, in sirihish:
   "Use of the stage is 20 'sid, friend."

Circle/Sponsored Bard

>enter stage
The stout, barrel chested man checks your license, then nods.

Circle/Sponsored Bard of Great Fame/Rank

>enter stage
The stout, barrel chested man smiles, helping you to the stage.
Cupping his hands, the stout, barrel chested man says, in sirihish:
   "Ladies and gentleman, performing for you now -- Jacoba!"

Having a stage license might then become something important and desired by the bards of the city.  And if the requirements for attaining such a thing required a measure of control to ensure that the people granted these licenses had to achieve some IC goals/training would add an interesting layer to the bardic scene.

Bards without licenses might earn new nicknames or insults.  Earning your stage license might be a fun and exciting adventure.  Reputation and standing may be more quickly apparent if you notice a bard has a stage license, even moreso if the NPC's seem to know who they are enough to announce them.

Just some ideas to put it into perspective.

-LoD
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Tlaloc on July 31, 2006, 12:06:26 PM
On the other side of the coin, LoD, I don't think that OOCly liking or disliking a bardic performance has to be the requirement of whether or not a bard is 'successful'. Like I was saying earlier, PCs should take into account their characters tastes in music.

A PC may espouse some poetry that I OOCly think is pure crap. ICly, my character might eat it all up. This is what roleplaying is all about: playing a role. Perhaps my character has bad taste, or maybe Zalanthan tastes typically differ from my own...but ICly, my character may love whatever crap the bard in question is spewing out.

Just as posted, I think audience members (like Quirk) could be more responsible in their estimates of:

:arrow: How the individual character views music, ICly and OOCly (do you hate the bard because they suck, or because you don't want to deal with 'spam'?)
:arrow: How good the material is ICly/OOCly. (would my character actually like this song, despite how I might feel about it OOCly?)
:arrow: How appropriate it is for their song to be heard by everyone. (Is my character sitting in a place where Bards and other tone-deaf drunkards are likely to start singing, such as...a tavern?)
:arrow: How important the bard is compared to the NPC/VNPC bards. (Is the bard the High Muck-a-muck Irofel, and are they actually ICly 'good', despite my OOC feelings)
Title: Re: Stage.
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 31, 2006, 12:22:23 PM
Quote from: "LoD"People always exaggerate how things will "stop altogether" when there's a proposed model change.

That is why I said "if it costs money," LoD. It's already hard enough to get many bards of the Circle to perform publically, and the proportion of performance time to non-performance time in Tuluki taverns is quite low. Despite the stereotype of spamming Circle bards, a lot of them are reluctant to perform and will only do it if pressed/requested by a member of the upper castes or a merchant family member. I'm not speaking doomsday, I'm just saying what I honestly observe on the scene. Take the reluctance that's already there, add in a calculation on "do I perform today, or do I eat today," and there will be a change in human behavior.

I would love for there to be stages for bards to use if they didn't cost money or if there was a way for bards to get licensed to avoid fees and if the stages acted like tables do so that emotes were broadcast to the room.
Title: Bards.
Post by: LoD on July 31, 2006, 12:36:43 PM
Quote from: "Tlaloc"On the other side of the coin, LoD, I don't think that OOCly liking or disliking a bardic performance has to be the requirement of whether or not a bard is 'successful'. Like I was saying earlier, PCs should take into account their characters tastes in music.

Nor do I, but what measures are we given to determine success?  I agree with everything you said about observers separating IC and OOC preferences for music, poetry, dancing, etc...  The problem I'm discussing, however, is the difficulty inherent in the system with determining IC talent.

If I want to punch someone in the face, make a piece of jewelry, bind a wound, poison a blade, climb a wall, remain unseen, or perform any number of role oriented tasks, then I have to be "skilled and practiced" to succeed.

If I want to play a bard who can play 10 instruments to perfection, sing with crystal clear tones, work my hips like Shakira, or have the audience clapping and asking for more -- all I have to do is emote and BAM - instant awesome.

Is that an exaggeration?  Sure.  However, bards have the power, which is why you're hearing observers posting their frustrations about bards and not bards posting their frustrations about observers.  Bards can waltz into a tavern, plop down, announce their song, and manipulate the audience and player's perceptions alike with nothing more than their will to emote.

When I see something like:

Several patrons clapping along, the svelte, dark skinned man strums his mandolin, nimble fingers moving over the strings with masterful timing as the melody fills the tavern with a lively pulse.

It makes me think of some newbie Bynners who do this:

The tall, muscular man backflips over your head and hits you from behind!

Really?  You're THAT good already?  You've been around for a few RL months and you're playing "masterful" songs that the audience is clapping along to and applauding?  Your material is being broadcast for all taverns to see on the rumor boards?

It's not the observers responsibility to keep things appropriate.  It's the bard's.  They're the ones controlling the emotes.  They're the ones determining the success or failure of their performance.  With absolutely no reliance on coded skill serving as a system of checks and balances for actual skill, they choose their skill level.

Is it all for good fun?  Usually.  Is it something that doesn't REALLY require something to be coded into the game?  Yes.  But does the completely abuseable freedom of expression result in some pretty lopsided performances?  Absolutely.  Is keeping that curbed in the responsibility of the observer?  Absolutely not.

-LoD
Title: Re: Bards.
Post by: Akaramu on July 31, 2006, 01:40:00 PM
Quote from: "LoD"[Really?  You're THAT good already?  You've been around for a few RL months and you're playing "masterful" songs that the audience is clapping along to and applauding?  Your material is being broadcast for all taverns to see on the rumor boards?

It's not the observers responsibility to keep things appropriate.  It's the bard's.

I actually like the fact that there are a few professions ingame that do NOT rely on starting out as an utter nublet. It can get frustrating to play one role after the next and never reach any semi-successful level because the PC dies. I'm not a powergamer, mind you, but after several months of playing the clumsy newbie thief / newbie warrior / newbie mage it can be a nice, and very enjoyable change to enter the game and use your full creative potential without IC barriers before the freaking PC dies again.

Especially southern and off-peak bards could spend their entire life looking for a musical mentor and not find one. I might have all those songs in my head that I'd really like to share with others, but my PC simply dies again before I even see anyone who could teach them to do what I want to do.

The same is true for political and social knowledge of servant / merchant types. It is possible to run through the Atrium with a clueless, drink-spilling PC who bows to merchants, over and over again. But sometimes I'd rather have a headstart because the character will probably just die at under 10 days anyway, and I've been there, done that before.

I agree on the VNPC use and entire songs being posted on IC boards, though... thats silly and comes with a twinkish flavor.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on July 31, 2006, 01:44:52 PM
But Akaramu, that's the way this game works.  We all start out as the proverbial SUCK.  Wanting to start as more?  Ask the staff if you can.  That's how it works for every other role, so why not for bards too?
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Akaramu on July 31, 2006, 01:46:37 PM
Because its a game, it should be fun, and sometimes its fun for someone to use their full creative potential before the PC dies again?

It doesn't hurt anyone and does not break the rules.

Would you rather have more players in ArmageddonMUD who play their bards here, than have them check out other MUDs because they can play a role enjoyable to them there?

Also, other roles do not so much rely on finding a RARE (in the south) teacher so you can advance at all. Except maybe assassins.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 31, 2006, 02:04:06 PM
Quote from: "spawnloser"But Akaramu, that's the way this game works.  We all start out as the proverbial SUCK.  Wanting to start as more?  Ask the staff if you can.  That's how it works for every other role, so why not for bards too?

Bards of the Poets' Circle do not start out as "the proverbial SUCK," though. If they are born into the Circle, they have been studying music, lore, and performance for the majority of their lives. A teenage or older Apprentice has enough practice, experience, and talent to perform competently on at least one musical instrument--which you will note when you look at the charms on that Circle bard's instrument. Every tiny instrument hanging there has been awarded by a Masterbard because the Circle bard has been judged proficient to perform on that instrument. To quote from http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/charms.html , these are "charms for instruments a bard has mastered."

Other bards might start out as "the proverbial SUCK," but mostly in this thread we're not talking about other bards, we're talking about Circle bards.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jstorrie on July 31, 2006, 05:09:27 PM
Conversely, however, in a city with dozens of dozens of Circle apprentices running around, not every random Circle bard is going to have every one of their songs for a month plastered around the local rumor-boards.

I don't think there's anything wrong with bards occasionally playing in a tavern, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them not consistently screwing up, either. Playing a song on a guitar is not, exactly, the hardest thing in the world. It doesn't take a lifetime of training to take it right. My counselors at kids camp could do it right.

Playing a song that makes all the tavern VNPCs weep and applaud and go around spreading the lyrics to the rest of the city, that's a bit odd. Maybe the top master bards would throw down a performance like that, once in a while, but most PC bards range from not-Circle-at-all (largely ignored) to one of the pre-master ranks (respected, but not awe-inspiring) and should play appropriately. Appropriately being 'okay, this PC has (no/some/quite a bit) of talent, but is not a Tuluki superstar.' There always seems to be one Tuluki bard playing the role of present superstar and it does irk me. You want to peg them down a notch, especially if OOC-wise, their material is bad. That just compounds the problem.

PCs strumming a nice song in a tavern isn't bad, but power-emoting and improperly using the rumourboards is. I don't think there needs to be any new code to stop that, players just need to moderate themselves.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Jherlen on July 31, 2006, 05:39:43 PM
Quote from: "Akaramu"Because its a game, it should be fun, and sometimes its fun for someone to use their full creative potential before the PC dies again?

No one is saying you have to start as someone who has never sung a note or plucked a lute string, but I think allowing a PC to evolve and grow through a period of medriocrity/uncertainty will be both more rewarding and more realistic.

Besides, city-based bards don't die THAT fast...
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 31, 2006, 05:56:47 PM
Quote from: "Jherlen"No one is saying you have to start as someone who has never sung a note or plucked a lute string, but I think allowing a PC to evolve and grow through a period of medriocrity/uncertainty will be both more rewarding and more realistic.

Circle-born bards will have mastered one instrument, but they must eventually master three in order to achieve the rank of Bard. They have to learn a crapload of other skills too, some of which are coded, some of which are virtual, and some of which are social/political. So growth, mediocrity, and uncertainty are givens for bards of the Circle who seek to achieve rank. Of course, if you don't ever roleplay closely with bards, you will not see this growth process much at all, because when bards are "on stage" they are putting their best performance forward. (Just like any performer in the real world.) If you're not interested in playing a bard yourself to see the reality of it, then I'd suggest ICly making a bard one of your best friends. You're likely to see an incredibly different side to barding than just "sits in the tavern performing with skill."
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: EvilRoeSlade on July 31, 2006, 06:01:11 PM
You know, I have seen bad musicians in bars, but I've never seen incompetent ones.

It's a good point that the majority of a bard's growth will take place off stage.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Jherlen on July 31, 2006, 06:09:52 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
Quote from: "Jherlen"No one is saying you have to start as someone who has never sung a note or plucked a lute string, but I think allowing a PC to evolve and grow through a period of medriocrity/uncertainty will be both more rewarding and more realistic.

Circle-born bards will have mastered one instrument, but they must eventually master three in order to achieve the rank of Bard. They have to learn a crapload of other skills too, some of which are coded, some of which are virtual, and some of which are social/political. So growth, mediocrity, and uncertainty are givens for bards of the Circle who seek to achieve rank. Of course, if you don't ever roleplay closely with bards, you will not see this growth process much at all, because when bards are "on stage" they are putting their best performance forward. (Just like any performer in the real world.) If you're not interested in playing a bard yourself to see the reality of it, then I'd suggest ICly making a bard one of your best friends. You're likely to see an incredibly different side to barding than just "sits in the tavern performing with skill."

I wasn't speaking of Circle born bards specifically, and yes, most skills would be learned off stage, through either real or virtual practice. I was mainly addressing Akamaru's point about bards starting off already at their best.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on July 31, 2006, 06:10:22 PM
Quote from: "LoD"
First, Dresan, you should keep the passion of your posts and remove the exaggeration and sarcasm; they will be better received.  

I'm not going to comment on this other then saying don't flatter yourselves.

Derailment aside, stages like LoD suggests is probably a better solution then having bards and listeners moving to different rooms all the time for performances.   I personally don't find that fair or considerate to someone attempting to be a bard so stages would be a good compromise. I would also agree they should be free at least.

That said from a social perspective all bards as well as nobles and merchants already start at the bottom of their social rank. I don't see many new merchants stuttering when they first meet a noble, most of the time they seem very smart and definately clever with words.  Again i don't see a big problem with 'perfect bards' because i really don't think there are any. ICly they probably practiced the song quite a few times to be confident enough to perform it infront of potentially dangerous people. OOCly they probably took the time to go over it, edit and spell check it. Even then as you can tell by this thread no matter how good the bard might think it is, some people still won't like it, ICly or OOCly.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on July 31, 2006, 06:27:08 PM
You can still use your full creative potential.  Just don't emote that you're gods gift to music while doing so.  That's the abuse in my eyes.  Write a good song, but don't have your character play it on three instruments at the same time while singing through a range of 5 octaves.  Okay, that is an exaggeration, but when people emote that the entire crowd is singing along or clapping and cheering while they play divine music?  That's too much and has NOTHING to do with your creative potential.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Malken on July 31, 2006, 07:01:40 PM
If you want to see more flawed, crippled and mentaly unstable characters, stop killing them every single time they dare disturb or displease you. That goes for the Templars and Nobles that hire them and expect a 'perfect praising' song or poetry a week or two after the bard is hired. Or have them killed because they dared made fun of Aide Nobody #221 of your House in one of their songs..
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Akaramu on July 31, 2006, 07:07:51 PM
If what generally bothers anti-bards is the use of cheering VNPC crowds and having mastered all instruments from start, then I agree, thats cheesy. I personally just want to have my PCs perform a song well enough that I can describe a melody I have on my mind, without having to think and ponder where I could add false notes and slips. Besides, I don't have much of a clue OOCly how to describe not so well done singing and instrument playing. There is plenty of information about how to do it right, but nothing about how to do it 'realistically wrong'  :P

You'd be surprised how quickly all 3 of my city bards died.

Okay... well... 2 of them were magickers.

(I'll shut up now.)
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: ale six on July 31, 2006, 08:03:22 PM
Malken - there's a wide gap between being a flawed or "not so good" bard, and being stupid/suicidal.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on August 01, 2006, 06:24:44 AM
Make mistakes by describing your nimble fingerwork on the lute that is only marred by the occasional off note...or have your voice crack on the last note of a line.  It's not that bad.  My last bard was a great bard for low class sort of establishments, but when it came to working for nobility, fucked up left and right...but in different ways.  I'd pick the wrong song to sing on purpose...and you know what, it did kind of suck, rarely being used as a bard...but, well, I'll put it this way: there were issues with my character beyond the above which made it difficult.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Quirk (not logged in) on August 01, 2006, 06:47:19 AM
Quote from: "Tlaloc"A PC may espouse some poetry that I OOCly think is pure crap. ICly, my character might eat it all up. This is what roleplaying is all about: playing a role. Perhaps my character has bad taste, or maybe Zalanthan tastes typically differ from my own...but ICly, my character may love whatever crap the bard in question is spewing out.

Tlaloc, the problem here is that we end up in an analogous situation to sitting round listening to someone murdering a simple tune on a violin and OOCly wincing, and having to pretend our characters like it. It's not an enjoyable RP experience for anyone but perhaps the bard.

This isn't one of those things we can hand over to the code, or play "let's pretend" about any more than we can pretend someone's a competent leader just because they want to RP being a competent leader, despite their actual IC actions being painfully stupid, or pretend that they're a witty conversationalist because they want to RP being a witty conversationalist despite a desperate lack of anything witty to say. Pretending someone is a creative genius despite their lack of creativity and genius is every bit as ridiculous and OOCly frustrating.

Quote from: "Tlaloc"Just as posted, I think audience members (like Quirk) could be more responsible in their estimates of:

:arrow: How the individual character views music, ICly and OOCly (do you hate the bard because they suck, or because you don't want to deal with 'spam'?)

I'll give a bard some latitude even if they show some OOC discourtesy in usurping a popular PC meeting-place without asking anyone and spamming it with pasted emotes if their poetry has some redeeming factor to it, be it humour, narrative or technical brilliance. I would still prefer to have the option to tune them out.

Quote from: "Tlaloc":arrow: How good the material is ICly/OOCly. (would my character actually like this song, despite how I might feel about it OOCly?)

Addressed this already. This is in the same vein as "Would my character revere this man for his cunning, when OOCly he reminds me of Baldrick?" Tulukis are exposed to a lot of art and a lot of music. The chances are good that my character is more discriminating than I am with regard to technical merit, and will be following the accents of each line (or alliteration, or whatever poetic scheme Tuluki verse adopts) with an educated interest.

There's a difference between music/poetry not being to your taste, and being incompetently executed. Sure, your character might enjoy and applaud the latter - if he's a half-giant or a masochist.

Oddly enough, if people didn't attempt (and often mutilate) the technical aspects of English verse, it would be much easier to pretend that the songs were just literal translations from the Sirihish and play accordingly; but bad English poetry is bad English poetry, and it's hard to play round it. It's much easier for me to deal with, say:

Under the baobab trees, a hunter waits with bow in hand.
Dappled sunbeams light his face. High leaves rustle once.
His arrow flies, strikes home. From above a vestric falls.


than

A hunter who lived in a shack,
Went out with a big sack.
He needed meat because he had a lack,
So duskhorn he wanted to attack.


The second shows all the classic signs of lines being bizarrely and painfully distorted to fit in a rhyme scheme, but without any attention being paid to the other technical aspects of the kind of poetry which tends to have a rhyme scheme. If it's going to be readable at all it'll be because it's telling a story, or being funny, or hopefully both.

Quote from: "Tlaloc":arrow: How appropriate it is for their song to be heard by everyone. (Is my character sitting in a place where Bards and other tone-deaf drunkards are likely to start singing, such as...a tavern?)

But there's a huge OOC consideration here to take into account - unlike a real tavern, we can't easily filter out the background noise and concentrate on our friends' conversations. If we had the spam of forty or more people talking at once (never mind singers) as real pubs tend to have, taverns would be unplayable in. From a code perspective, every singer sings so loudly as to be unignorable.

Taverns on Arm are the places people go to meet other people, and talk to other people. If you start introducing the equivalent of music that has to be shouted over to them, it does the game a huge disservice.

Quote from: "Tlaloc":arrow: How important the bard is compared to the NPC/VNPC bards. (Is the bard the High Muck-a-muck Irofel, and are they actually ICly 'good', despite my OOC feelings)

This is a touchy one. However, the High Muck-a-muck Irofel isn't likely to disrupt random RPers in taverns, and if you've gone to a performance featuring High Muck-a-muck and he isn't very good, it's probably expedient to clap anyway.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Akaramu on August 01, 2006, 09:18:13 AM
Spawnloser, the issue with southern bards finding no teacher remains. Musicians are just THAT rare in the south. Music is not something that can just realistically be 'practiced' to a decent level with trial and error, especially without any written information material.

And I refuse to play in Tuluk again. :evil:
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: bardbard#4 on August 01, 2006, 10:12:48 AM
Quote from: "Akaramu"Spawnloser, the issue with southern bards finding no teacher remains. Musicians are just THAT rare in the south.

There aren't a lot of PC bards in Allanak, but I imagine there is a fairly healthy vnpc representation.  I would admire someone who took the time to write up a background relationship between his PC and his VNPC teacher, and used that to explain his growing aptitude for music (or whatever other art form).

Quote from: "Akaramu"Music is not something that can just realistically be 'practiced' to a decent level with trial and error, especially without any written information material.

I have to respectfully disagree with this point.  Some of the greatest musicians in history have had no formal training, instead opting to listen to their own personal idols and emulate what they were doing.  In a lot of cases, they couldn't read one scrap of music.  Nor did they formally study the theory.  They had great ears and a lot of dedication, and that's where their brilliance came from.  You really have to understand how and why music exists, and its relationship to different methods of study.  Trial and error is absolutely a proven technique once a basic understanding of harmony and melody achieved (even if it's a more organic understanding that comes from just sitting in a tavern and listening to others rather than reading a music theory text book).  Remember that the music does not come from the theory.  The theory comes from the music, and there is certainly enough of that around (virtually) for people to self-teach.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Quirk on August 01, 2006, 10:41:15 AM
Incidentally, I'm going to set out my position again, because I probably haven't been very clear in places, and have spent too much time railing against bad poetry.

Bad poetry is painful to read, like hearing a musician playing wrong notes.
Even a bard with good lyrics can be pretty distracting when those don't coincide with your vision of Zalanthas (if, say, Cole Porter Konviwedu finds jolly show tunes fit his Zalanthas, and they don't fit mine, we're unlikely to be reconciled simply because he's gifted).
However, good bards are a treasure to the game, and at times our characters will want to listen to them.

It is currently impossible to filter out a bard's song in the way we filter out background music in reality, or make it filterable as with background conversations on Arm using the "talk" command.
For this reason, it's mildly OOCly impolite to start singing in a tavern where people are already engaged in animated conversation. Also, those people are probably too ICly engrossed in their affairs to bother tipping the bard.
If you must play in a busy tavern, instead of the street or some place people go expecting to see a public performance, please check at least one PC there wants to hear you. It's OOCly polite, it's ICly sensible, and someone who's agreed they want to hear a song is more likely to feel they should tip anyway.

LoD's idea is a good one, as it addresses the current inability to filter bards you don't want to hear out. I don't however think bards should be charged for using the stage. A popular bard may bring the tavern more custom. Bards should get to play for free.

Also, it's permissible to dislike bards who write bad verse, or power-emote their skills (competence is fine, mastery we charge extra for) or their VNPC support, in an entirely IC manner. Nothing's stopping you from booing them down. Discouraging bad bards is only half the equation though - if you want to see more good bards, you need to encourage the ones you like with tips and gifts.

I hope this clarifies things a bit. I don't hate bards, but I do think badly played bards are more damaging to the "atmosphere" of Arm than most other roles, because they tend to reach a wide range of people and it's hard to blot them out. The converse is also true - a good bard can help fill out the world around them.

Also, songs and poetry aren't the only bardic outlets, anyway. Irofel bards make fine storytellers. Konviwedu is renowned for theatre. Most Elkinhym bards are satirists and jesters.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: LoD on August 01, 2006, 10:45:15 AM
Quote from: "Akaramu"Spawnloser, the issue with southern bards finding no teacher remains. Musicians are just THAT rare in the south. Music is not something that can just realistically be 'practiced' to a decent level with trial and error, especially without any written information material.

It is also important to note that BARD does not equal MUSICIAN.

At least not in my mind.  Bards are the tellers of tall tales.  Music might be a popular method of adding to the story, but you have my permission to be creative with how you become accomplished.  Here are a few suggestions:

:arrow: Act out scenes from famous pro-Allanak battles.
:arrow: Recite poems or stories.
:arrow: If you want dramatic emphasis, maybe take up a percussion instrument.

It would make sense to me for percussion instruments to be common in the southlands, with their lack of wood or sinew.  And those would require much less professional training to learn.  One of bards hardly sang at all, instead he collected a few masks and would act our small scenes for the audience.

Be creative.  That's part of being an entertainer.  Songs get old.  Mix it up and introduce some new performances.

-LoD
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Cuusardo on August 01, 2006, 11:30:21 AM
Tuluki bards of the Circle starting out with good skills is one thing, because they're trained rigorously.  Non-Circle bards starting out as dazzling as rockstars should not happen as much as it does, IMO.  Yes, it is possible to learn instruments on one's own (I taught myself several instruments over the course of my life, including piano, clarinet, guitar, and bassoon) but it takes many, many years to become a virtuoso.  That is something I can't say that I became on any of those instruments, because I have only had a few years of formal training, and equally as much practice.

A musical prodigy does come along occasionally.  Take Tori Amos for example.  Whether or not she had any formal musical training in voice and piano does not really matter, but it did take her years to hone her talents.  It also does not matter whether or not your musical tastes lead you to enjoy her type music, because objectively (i.e. from a technical standpoint) her skills with the keys are damned good.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Medena on August 01, 2006, 05:23:46 PM
All this anti-bard sentiment really makes me sad. In small part because three of my own past PC's, all favourites, have been performers of some kind but mainly because I adore what bards add to the game. They bring a lot of colour to Zalanthas and a lot of flavour to scenes. Though generally underutilized, they have so much exciting potential for other functions too:  spreaders of propaganda, destroyers of reputations, walking history books, just to name a few.  I can well understand the "passion" of Dresan as he posts against all the negative, non-constructive views espoused in this thread.

QuoteI personally hate most bards
QuoteI only see 'songs' IG as spam
QuoteIf someone's going to inflict bad, self-indulgent poetry on me without my consent, I'm more than entitled to be acerbic. And as far as taking time goes, it may take you time and effort to evacuate your bowels, but I'm still not going to praise the result.

Sure, those were just snippets. Sure, they were mixed in with a few positive comments. Even so, it's just depressing...

[/emotional spewing]

In response to some of the more pervasive attitudes:

Bardic performances shouldn't always be songs.

True. Probably the reason most players opt for the song and music form is that these sorts of performances are less invasive and less demanding of full attention of an audience. While the "spam" as some of you folks call it would probably be the same, in RP terms a quiet song delivered from a stool is way less demanding of attention than a dramatic tale.  Real life comparison: a cocktail lounge with a singer at a piano in the corner versus a nightclub with a stand-up comedian doing a routine on the stage. Also, carrying around an instrument is sort of a hook to get attention. If a bard takes her lute from her back and starts tuning the strings, there is a chance this might bring an invitation from someone to perform.

Bards should not inflict their "spam" on people without an invitation.

Yeah, I do agree.  My last bard never once performed without an explicit invitation to do so.  But only because she got incredibly lucky (probably because her "hook" was a pretty unique character concept) and managed to acquire an influential patron.  Some times though you just have to perform without invitation in order to get noticed then start making those contacts and building a reputation.  

Bards should do street performances.

In theory, this is a really nice idea. In practise, it does not work since no one ever stops to listen. If we are talking Tuluk and the Poet's Circle, no one even GOES there, let alone stops to listen.  Players do not spend RL hours writing material so that they can engage in solo RP performing for crowds composed of VNPC's.  Art, no matter the genre, just ain't art without a spectator to see it and VNPC's really don't cut it.  One or two sessions of it can be kind of fun and a way to tune up the material but more than that and it is just silly.

One of my very first characters was a juggler in Allanak. Ahhh... to be a bright-eyed, naive, enthusiastic newbie again! I had this absolutely great (or so I thought) concept that I'd start out as a street performer and make enough in tips to survive until I got a job with House Fale as a performer.   :lol: House Fale only existed virtually as it turned out and street performing was pretty unrewarding monetarily.  Due purely to luck though I did manage to carry on with the concept. I think some players took pity on the obvious newbie busting her ass to perform full shows that included a line of patter for the audience, deliberately fumbled maneuvres, and other bits of showmanship. It was fun and somehow the PC survived, went on to other things and lived a long successful life until I retired her.  But now, with the jaded wisdom of a veteran, I'd never again try such a thing.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Intrepid on August 01, 2006, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: "Medena"All this anti-bard sentiment really makes me sad.

Likewise.  I think, after reading this thread, I'm just going to scrap the jester concept I was planning.

I'm never going to think of myself as too critical again.  :shock:
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 01, 2006, 06:04:29 PM
Quote from: "Intrepid"I think, after reading this thread, I'm just going to scrap the jester concept I was planning.

I would strongly urge anyone thinking about playing a bard character, north or south, to not let the naysayers in this thread put you off. For every person complaining here, there are at least as many out there, currently silent in the crowd, who will love what you do and who love what you will bring to the game. From my observations in game, those posting so critically and negatively here are by no means the majority of the player base. Also, the staff seems very supportive of bards.

Plus, playing a bard is incredibly fun and challenging in positive ways. So just do it, you won't regret it :)
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: LoD on August 01, 2006, 06:08:11 PM
Quote from: "Medena"All this anti-bard sentiment really makes me sad.

Besides Quirk's comments, removed from his constructive criticism to appear more hateful than intended, I don't see a lot of anti-bard sentiment.

I see the most common issues presented being:

:arrow: Portraying a masterful virtuoso without significant IC development.
:arrow: Using VNPCs or NPCs to confirm your success or talent.
:arrow: Performing unsolicited, and perhaps unwanted, material.
:arrow: Songs that are bloated with short sentences and choppy language.

Bards are great.  I think many of them are good role players and contribute a lot of energy, creativity, and flavor to the game.  However, because bards are a gleaming (sometimes glaring) beacon that cannot be ignored, the bad can easily outshadow the good.  The people who fire off macro-songs in rapid succession, who spam rooms with choppy dialogue, and masterfully strum, pluck, beat, play and slap their instruments with unshakeable confidence and exaggerated talent.

Why pick the few insults from a sea of constructive criticism and make claim that anti-bard sentiment is running rampant through the thread?  It makes you sad?  Because Quirk's personal standards are too high?  That's his burden to bear, not yours.  I've written several songs and played two bard characters, and I'm not offended by what Quirk is saying because I agree that a few bad apples can sometimes sour me on the barrel.  And expressing what those factors are in a rational discussion is the best way to see results.

Most of us that have spoken on this subject WANT bards to be a bigger part of the game than they already are, and WANT the quality of their songs and performances to be as high as it can be.   If this thread encourages just one person to put more thought into their bard character (including myself for future characters), then I think it's worthwhile and successful.

-LoD
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on August 01, 2006, 06:43:40 PM
I still think some people are missing a small point here. The point being that when it comes to songs, poems and stories, what your opinion on what is 'high' quality or 'good' , is not nessasarily anyone elses. That what you might think ruins the atmosphere is not nessasarily the case for anyone else. Therefore a little consideration for someone that may have work hard on a piece (either song, story or poem) in the hopes that it would have entertained people, is not too much to ask. At least so i thought til this thread.

I was going to make a few example in an attempt to relate creating a piece for the game to things people might be more familiar with like coming up with quest and plot that -they- think will interest everyone but i don't think there is much of a point to doing that. I really think that the few constructive criticisms where swamped by alot of hateful comments. Meaning this thread has probably hurt Bards more then help. Yeah LoD and others might disagree with me here but i'm guessing the players who are having second thoughts of attempting to play bards would not.

EDITTED: for grammer and just to add that i agree with Gimfalisette post.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Seeker on August 01, 2006, 07:59:00 PM
QuoteYes, playing a bard is OOCly far harder than it should be. You as a player have to be entertaining to the rest of us as players, not just as characters. It's unfair, but if you're going to turn our characters from actors in a scene into spectators, you need to put on a show worth seeing.

I adore bards.  I want to be a great one someday.  But here is the problem, in a nutshell, as I see it:
Quote from: "Taloc"PCs should take into account their characters tastes in music.
Which means, if we are playing a true-Sun King-red, brainwashed thrall of the Northlands, we kinda have to pay attention to bardic performances, and maybe even pretend to like them.

I don't care how long a player works on a particular piece.  That's her choice. How hard someone works on a project means jack to me.  Results of effort matter. Spend three months and make a shabby screwdriver, and I am not impressed.  Three months, and produce a ship worthy to sail across the Pacific Ocean.... you have my fixated enthusiasm.  My point is this:

I, as a player, dislike crappy bards.  My PC is often not even given that luxury.  That blows.  Be good, bard, be good.


Seeker
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on August 01, 2006, 11:07:54 PM
Quote from: "Dresan"I still think some people are missing a small point here. The point being that when it comes to songs, poems and stories, what your opinion on what is 'high' quality or 'good' , is not nessasarily anyone elses.
You are correct in assuming that there are style preferences.  You are NOT correct in assuming that there is an objective and heavily developed system which can define the quality of a musical piece that crosses all genres, and people that study music to that level can appreciate the quality even while they deplore the style.  The same goes for writing in all other forms and even art in all other forms.  I say these all as boundries blur between the lot, but not everything from one is another.

Quote from: "Dresan"That what you might think ruins the atmosphere is not nessasarily the case for anyone else. Therefore a little consideration for someone that may have work hard on a piece (either song, story or poem) in the hopes that it would have entertained people, is not too much to ask. At least so i thought til this thread.
Consideration, yes.    However, the consideration does go both ways.

I hate myself for writing this even before I do, but another sad truth is that not everyone is posessed of the same artistic skill when it comes to writing poetry (which is what all songs in the game are truly presented to every else as).  Sometimes, people have to realize their own limitations when it comes to writing their own work.

TO BE VERY CLEAR, I am not saying that there is a single person playing this game that is unable to play a bard.  There is a wealth of song material in the game documentation that is available, as well as there being other resources for music that can be imported to the game.  (Mind that this second option is discreetly done.  Certain music isn't appropriate to the setting, and obviously converted popular songs tend to break the immersion for your fellow players.)

To note, I do disagree with you.  I do think that the people with second thoughts can look at this thread to see what things people find to be the mark of a boring, possibly annoying or even twinkish bard.  They can take what has been said and learn from it without having to make the same mistakes themselves.  I think that those playing bards can look at this and realize why sometimes people don't treat their character they way they think their character should be treated and how they may improve their play to actually grab people's attentions if that is what they would actually like their character to do.

I also think that other's hateful (as you called it) words taken out of context are a LOT worse than when taken in context.  You can not take any word, phrase or even sentence from its surroundings in any form of writing and have it mean the same thing as in its original location.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on August 02, 2006, 12:58:51 AM
Quote from: "spawnloser"
I hate myself for writing this even before I do, but another sad truth is that not everyone is posessed of the same artistic skill when it comes to writing poetry (which is what all songs in the game are truly presented to every else as).  Sometimes, people have to realize their own limitations when it comes to writing their own work.

TO BE VERY CLEAR, I am not saying that there is a single person playing this game that is unable to play a bard.  There is a wealth of song material in the game documentation that is available, as well as there being other resources for music that can be imported to the game.  

Such Arrogance...

Abiet not taking modern songs and attempting to convert them is a nice rule but still by your logic no one but professional artist should be confident enough to RP bards. I mean who decides who is talented and who is not or what is good literature or should i say what is documentation worthy? You? A 'professional'? The imms? Maybe...i wonder if the imms are arrogant enough to think something they think is good won't 'ruin' the atmosphere for anyone. I mean even i sometimes read descs and think 'what the fuck'. (bulging crotched elf anyone?)

Oh but people can play bards if they stick to the docs, right? I am glad you think the documentation is good though at least. Guess who wrote some of it? Bet it wasn't RL artists, i'll even bet some of them didn't even think they had talent for it but they were willing to give it a try. They still did a damn good job.  I bet there is stuff there that shouldn't have made the cut in some people's minds too.

Not -everyone- here is a professional writer, professional artist or even professional coder...just a bunch of people from all walks of life with a computers who put in time and still try to make this world come alive...why because we like pretending...aka Roleplaying whether it be as hunters, assassins, merchant or even bards. Sometimes we succeed in the roles, sometimes we don't...despite any RL 'limitations' trying is part of the fun of the game .

The attempt alone sometimes pays off, this mud is proof of that i think.

Anyways, I am really liking the idea of stages more and more, just because it would make alot of thoughts in this thread moot points. Oh and while to say i strongly disagree with the anti-bards of this thread would be an understatement, its still not so much i am passionate about this topic as much as it is i'm stuck in an isolated place in-game.  :cry:

Editted for grammer and an addition
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on August 02, 2006, 01:56:41 AM
Quote from: "Dresan"still by your logic no one but professional artist should be confident enough to RP bards.
No, what I'm saying is that people should not be upset when they think their original work is god's gift to the mud and everyone else doesn't agree.

Quote from: "Dresan"I mean who decides who is talented and who is not or what is good literature or should i say what is documentation worthy?
Well, it's simple.  The Imms decide what is documentation-worthy.  As far as who decides who is talented, well, that is self-evident.  If your original works are getting people to pay attention, you have some talent.  If people are avoiding your performances, you possibly don't.  (Note that there are other factors which may influence people's reactions.)

Quote from: "Dresan"Oh but people can play bards if they stick to the docs, right? I am glad you think the documentation is good though at least. Guess who wrote some of it? Bet it wasn't RL artists, i'll even bet some of them didn't even think they had talent for it but they were willing to give it a try. They still did a damn good job.  I bet there is stuff there that shouldn't have made the cut in some people's minds too.
As I said, there are preferences in style.  However, the more skill you have in prose and poetry, the more people will.  I didn't say people shouldn't compose, but that noone is truly the best judge of their own work.  You have to take a risk and expose yourself to people...and they may not react the way you think they will.

Really, Dresan, most of the anti-bards that you're talking about really are pro-bard...they are just anti-BAD-bard...and since bards put themselves in the public eye, bad bards stick out a lot and thus are highly-observed and highly-criticized.

In regards to your 'arrogance' comment, though...my point was that some people need to look at the reactions of those others in game to the bards they play.  If those bards aren't doing well when they're singing their own work, maybe they should try to figure out how they should be writing differently or use other sources of good material.  I am sorry if I sound arrogant when I say this, but it is a simple FACT that different people have different aptitudes or different educations.  Talent and training go a long way, and some simply don't have as much as others.  Such is the human condition.  A group has reached a general consensus about those works on the site, though, believing it to be good work.  I never said you needed training to produce something people like, which it seems to me you are implying I said.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 02:07:22 AM
Quote from: "Seeker"I don't care how long a player works on a particular piece.  That's her choice. How hard someone works on a project means jack to me.  Results of effort matter. Spend three months and make a shabby screwdriver, and I am not impressed.  Three months, and produce a ship worthy to sail across the Pacific Ocean.... you have my fixated enthusiasm.  My point is this:

I, as a player, dislike crappy bards.  My PC is often not even given that luxury.  That blows.  Be good, bard, be good.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you SEEKER: The posterboy of anyone who, after reading this thread, believes that it's a bad idea to play a bard.

Yes, folks.  He did say exactly that.  He wielded opinion as if it were universal truth.  And anyone who was possibly self-conscious about making a bard is just going to get ridiculed by this guy for purely ooc dislike.  Now, most roles do not require likability for basic prosperity, but this one does--and what Seeker has kindly pointed out is that he has no ooc consideration for a player who may not know what opinions he himself holds on bards.  He hates the majority of them and will take it out on you because his ideal bard must be universally liked by everyone.

For anyone who actually thinks that I was overreacting about posts on here being cruel and snide, please feel free to look closely at this post and any of the others in this thread having tantrums that bards aren't good enough or are an ooc disturbance.

It's truly pathetic when brainless mercs are idolized but ic artists/performers trying to appeal to the cultural development of the game are treated like dirt, even by the admissions of the players themselves.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Rhyden on August 02, 2006, 02:19:11 AM
Quote from: "Intrepid"It's truly pathetic when brainless mercs are idolized but ic artists/performers trying to appeal to the cultural development of the game are treated like dirt, even by the admissions of the players themselves.

Sounds lots like IRL. Brainless celebs are idiolized when the talented and skilled are disregarded. *Shrug*.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 02:22:56 AM
At least in modern society, we have our share of brilliant famous people.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Dresan on August 02, 2006, 03:29:47 AM
Quote from: "spawnloser"No, what I'm saying is that people should not be upset when they think their original work is god's gift to the mud and everyone else doesn't agree.

For this to be true, there would have to be someone here asking why there are people who don't like their stuff and i haven't seen that. What i have seen is people saying a bard is 'crappy' because they personally don't like something another player made. This is what i disagree with because just because they didn't like a piece(song, poem, story, etc), doesnt mean no one else does. Again, yes different tastes.

Now what i've been saying and this is what i think it might be what you are referring to with that statement, is that even if you don't OOCly or ICly like what the player wrote, have a little consideration for the -player-,that took the time to attempt to bring some entertainment to the game. I orginally thought it wasn't too much too ask, but sadly i am definately willing to admit i was wrong on this.

I actually had no problem with the bit constructive criticism emerging from this thread for example what if someone completely copied a britney spear song word for word. Okay i can see this being a problem. Potential solutions to solve this would be submitting pieces to imms so they can go over it, maybe the lyrics to the actual song you are converting. That way they can at least make sure there are no referrences to semi-automatics in your song. That said if someone thinks something is seriously wrong with a piece, they player could talk to an imm about it.

Again other then that when approved, if you don't oocly like what the player wrote, pretty much falls under the catagory of 'No one gives a shit', and feel free to write something -you- think is better. Now if your PC ICLY doesn't like the piece, feel free to do something about it ICLY.

Quote from: "spawnloser"If those bards aren't doing well when they're singing their own work, maybe they should try to figure out how they should be writing differently or use other sources of good material.

True but again it could be just you that doesn't think its good, maybe others including the bard think differently. Again there are OOC and IC differences, if a bard comes up with the best written, most clever song on why the templar is a shithead, well the templar player might love it from an ooc stand point but Icly that bard still has to die. Again the oppossite could just as easily be true.Again, yes different tastes, different styles but just because someone doesn't OOCly like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. Its because of this that i disagree with you when you bring RL into the equation...Yes someone with RL talent or whatever RL reason may write a better piece..may even write better rooms...BUT it does not mean others who might not be with any advantage cannot at least attempt it. If they put enough work and love into it, some might like it, some might not but it will probably still belong in the game.

This is what your (spawnloser) orginal post i was commeting to was saying to me, the second one, well the tune seemed to change a bit...therefore i have no problems saying that it must have me that  misunderstood you.  :) Unfortunately some people ended up putting their foots in their mouths in this thread and posted silly or to be truely blunt stupid comments.  Those comments are mainly what i've been agruing against. Despite the few good criticism, alot of of things could have been better said or better yet not said at all.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on August 02, 2006, 03:54:30 AM
Actually, what this thread will hopefully accomplish is this...

-Fewer bards poweremoting their adoring fans.
-More bards attempting to get people to solicit their work, as it should be.
-More bards thinking about how their music fits with the game world and the other characters in it.

Most of the gripes truly have been about this, not the quality of the song...but the quality of the presentation (put overly simply).
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: jstorrie on August 02, 2006, 05:00:04 AM
Quote from: "Intrepid"It's truly pathetic when brainless mercs are idolized but ic artists/performers trying to appeal to the cultural development of the game are treated like dirt, even by the admissions of the players themselves.

Many in-game performers are not trying to appeal to the cultural development of the game. They're throwing a few adapted songs together and wildly ignoring the documentation.

I don't think there's anyone in this thread who dislikes bards who engage actual Zalanthan culture, bring up interesting bits of in-game lore, drive plots, and such. What bothers people is having to read bad poetry, and seeing power-emoting. Not all performers can hide behind the Bardic Shield on this one: some are just not doing things properly.

Some brainless mercs are idolized because those roles are being played so well. If there were as many people playing great bards as great scuzzy Bynners, there wouldn't be a problem here. Likewise, if 'scuzzy Bynner' was being repeatedly and catastrophically fouled up I think there would be some resentment against that archetype, too.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Nao on August 02, 2006, 08:34:59 AM
Jstorrie makes a good point there.

Anyways, bards mostly exist to entertain the people, they live off entertaining people and even if they're paid to bring across this point or the other and make this look great or that look bad, they still have to be interesting and entertaining, or else they'd have zero success with bringing their point across.

The majority of the populace are commoners of the lower classes (even if this is not entirely reflected by how the playerbase is currently spread)- so bards would HAVE to be entertaining for your average Joe. And I think that's where a lot of bards are missing out.
I see the average, dirt-poor commoner being much better entertained by ballads, songs that tell a story in some way or at least make you think than some long-winded song that goes on one stanza after another about how great Kalan wine or that fancy noble house is without being funny, exciting or thougthful.
That's why I see the songs that the bard in the Bard's Barrel plays as much better examples for songs than the ones in the Sanctuary.
Those would be more interesting to players as well and maybe stop them - look at the kind of lyrics in songs that are popular today - I'd like to see more lyrics of this type in game, ballads, something that makes them interesting to listen to. I don't mind if you adapt some popular song and zalanthanise it a bit, as long as it fits some criteria.

For the same reason I don't think that bards ahould be too refined - because that wopuld mean losing touch with the lower classes and making them less likeable for the general populace overall. Who likes some rich guy who acts like he'S soemthing better at all times?

I'd write a bit more to explain but I've got to catch my bus...
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on August 02, 2006, 08:53:09 AM
> sing (his voice soulful) Ricky was a young boy.  He had a heart of stone.  Lived dawn to dusk and he worked his fingers to the bone!
Title: Bards.
Post by: LoD on August 02, 2006, 10:12:05 AM
Quote from: "Intrepid"Yes, folks.  He did say exactly that.  He wielded opinion as if it were universal truth.  And anyone who was possibly self-conscious about making a bard is just going to get ridiculed by this guy for purely ooc dislike.  Now, most roles do not require likability for basic prosperity, but this one does--and what Seeker has kindly pointed out is that he has no ooc consideration for a player who may not know what opinions he himself holds on bards.  He hates the majority of them and will take it out on you because his ideal bard must be universally liked by everyone.

For anyone who actually thinks that I was overreacting about posts on here being cruel and snide, please feel free to look closely at this post and any of the others in this thread having tantrums that bards aren't good enough or are an ooc disturbance.

>open seeker's mouth
Ok.

>put words mouth
You put your words into Seeker's mouth.

>close seeker's mouth
Ok.

Did you even read Seeker's first sentence from the same post?

Quote from: "Seeker"I adore bards. I want to be a great one someday.

Seeker said nothing about hating the majority of bards.  He did not state that his OOC taste in people's music will bleed into his RP.  He did not state that the bard must be universally liked.  These are your words, your fears, and your exaggerations and incorrect assumptions.

You are being snide, and to call many of the constructive posts tantrums is simply a misnomer applied in an effort to categorize their message to one of unreasonable and immature rage, which is simply untrue.  As spawnloser mentions, the bulk of this thread is about the method of delivery and how a bard executes the presentation, not about the bard's material.

As for your performer, why do you care if a vocal few on the GDB might not support your bard character.  They aren't a balanced slice of the MUD's demographic.  I never wonder if the other players in the game will enjoy my next character concept because they aren't the ones responsible for my fun, I am.  So I definitely think you should pursue your performer rather than let any of them disuade you from trying, you're stronger than that.

I second Gimfalisette in saying that bards and other performers are extremely fun and rewarding characters with a lot of potential.  They might require some real talent to be truly successful, but that's how it is in show biz.  Not everyone getting off the bus gets a recording contract.  And that's a hard thing to accept for anyone who puts their heart and soul into something.

-LoD
Title: Re: Bards.
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 12:07:01 PM
Quote from: "LoD"Did you even read Seeker's first sentence from the same post?

Quote from: "Seeker"I adore bards. I want to be a great one someday.

Yep, read it.  He said he wanted to be a great bard someday.  That's wonderful, except he's basically crapping on anyone wanting to be one.  His statement proclaiming is adoration for bards is contradicted by everything he says afterward--so forgive me if he didn't make me a believer.

Quote from: "LoD"Seeker said nothing about hating the majority of bards.  He did not state that his OOC taste in people's music will bleed into his RP.  He did not state that the bard must be universally liked.  These are your words, your fears, and your exaggerations and incorrect assumptions.

Quote from: "Seeker"I, as a player, dislike crappy bards. My PC is often not even given that luxury. That blows. Be good, bard, be good.

The best part about an ambiguous statement like this is that Seeker has totally divorced himself of any real responsibility.  By wielding an opinion as a fact, as if there was some universally "good" bard, he's ensured that he could pretty much all of them and have individuals like yourself defending him over it.  Good job.

Quote from: "LoD"You are being snide, and to call many of the constructive posts tantrums is simply a misnomer applied in an effort to categorize their message to one of unreasonable and immature rage, which is simply untrue.  As spawnloser mentions, the bulk of this thread is about the method of delivery and how a bard executes the presentation, not about the bard's material.

What I've seen are ungrateful posters being snide throughout this entire thread.  Yes, you've been doing your level best to whine about a group of people you had to tolerate in game and didn't get to choose whether or not they were the cultural foundation of the new civilization you've been playing in.  Yes, I do believe they're tantrums, both unreasonable and immature.  There have been quotes posed by Medena and just recently confirmed by Seeker that state that a lot of this has to do with a distaste for the class in general.  Just because I don't agree with you does not mean I'm misinterpreting.  The material is quite clear, and I believe it's a bad idea to make a bard as long as the current feelings prevail.  I intend to discourage anyone else from doing so as well.

Quote from: "LoD"As for your performer, why do you care if a vocal few on the GDB might not support your bard character.  They aren't a balanced slice of the MUD's demographic.  I never wonder if the other players in the game will enjoy my next character concept because they aren't the ones responsible for my fun, I am.  So I definitely think you should pursue your performer rather than let any of them disuade you from trying, you're stronger than that.

You don't really understand the definition of "opinion", do you?  Saying a piece of work is "good" or "bad" is largely up to the taste of the person--for example, ask any group of people about any given movie this summer and you'll receive a deluge of varying responses.  When this opinion is governed mostly by the ooc dislike a player might have, there's not really much leeway with which to reason with such a person.  And lastly, while you can be utterly disliked and play just about any other class, Bards subsist on the goodwill and favor of others--it's not irrelevant, it's the basis for the character's existence.  When you're sabotaged by ooc bias from the very beginning, there's no point in attempting such a role until the playerbase as a whole has some time to grow up a bit.

Quote from: "LoD"I second Gimfalisette in saying that bards and other performers are extremely fun and rewarding characters with a lot of potential.  They might require some real talent to be truly successful, but that's how it is in show biz.  Not everyone getting off the bus gets a recording contract.  And that's a hard thing to accept for anyone who puts their heart and soul into something.

I'm not even talking about success here--unless you count survival among those.  I'm just referring to having a role that isn't starving to death and maybe has the sid for an ale or two each login.  Bards add color to the world.  It takes far more effort for a bard to make songs than it does for a merc to type kill creature--yet our still-too-DIKU priorities make the latter far more acceptable and likable.

This is yet another example of how several of the players are shrinking our options topic by topic until we end up in a two dimensional world.
Title: Re: Bards.
Post by: LoD on August 02, 2006, 12:49:04 PM
Quote from: "Intrepid"The best part about an ambiguous statement like this is that Seeker has totally divorced himself of any real responsibility.  By wielding an opinion as a fact, as if there was some universally "good" bard, he's ensured that he could pretty much all of them and have individuals like yourself defending him over it.  Good job.

What fact?  He claims that HE dislikes most bards and would choose to reward talent that appeals to him.  He hasn't made any claim whatsoever that this is how everyone should play.  And I'm not defending his stance, I'm defending him from your misrepresentation.  He hasn't attacked you, yet you seem intent on going for the jugular using any methods available, including plain lies.

It might do you well to stop explaining what other people have said, and stick to your own thoughts and opinions.  We can read for ourselves what is written, and likewise recognize poor attempts to cover up one's lies.

Quote from: "Intrepid"What I've seen are ungrateful posters being snide throughout this entire thread.  Yes, you've been doing your level best to whine about a group of people you had to tolerate in game and didn't get to choose whether or not they were the cultural foundation of the new civilization you've been playing in.

Ungrateful, whining people?  We must be reading different threads.  Most of the posts have been constructive, if opinionated.  Get your facts straight before you start punching keys.  The largest "trantrums" have come from yourself and the others who have reacted strongly to what they perceive is an attack upon the "role" of the bard when it's been stated many times that it's much less about a bard's material than the presentation and present inability to tune them out if one so desires.

Disuade people from playing bards because a handful of people on the GDB have mentioned that OOCly they don't like some of the material people have written?  That's your own choice to make if you feel beaten by a few opinions, but I've certainly seen nothing in game to make me believe that any majority of players are acting inappropriately toward bardic performances.  Heck, I've even paid some and my character is probably on the bottom of the list as far as "who should be supporting these bards" goes.  Many players do have the ability to separate their OOC opinions from the IC game regardless of what you believe.

THAT is a fact.  

-LoD
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 02, 2006, 01:03:52 PM
It is true that there are some players who cannot separate their OOC dislike for bards, or for a particular bard's style of performance/composition, from their IC feelings and actions. There are many of these.

However, it is also true that there are many players who are quite good at separating their OOC likes/dislikes from how their characters act ICly. I have been told point-blank "I don't like your stuff OOCly, because I prefer modern music" but then I see the character act a different way. It's very cool that there are some people who can do that.

Truth be told, -I- wouldn't always (or even often) choose in the Real World to listen to the kinds of music/poetry/whatever that are created for this game. My personal preference is toward a fairly driving kind of alternative rock played on nifty electric instruments. But the fact that my preferred music style and genre doesn't exist in the game (and even if it did I couldn't "hear" it) doesn't stop me from ICly enjoying the creations that are good and appropriate in the game world.

I'd also ask that no one take it as their personal mission to dissuade people from playing bards. Instead, please point anyone who might be interested toward experienced players of bards (Cuusardo, for example) so they can get good information on the challenges and rewards of doing so.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Cuusardo on August 02, 2006, 01:10:27 PM
Despite the hardships of playing a bard, and the OOC dislikes there are out there, playing a bard can be a lot of fun and very rewarding.  Part of this is because bards are so versatile, and can work with just about any concept out there.

To all of you people who are considering it, don't let the bickering and OOC crap dissuade you from giving it a try.
Title: Re: Bards.
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: "LoD"What fact?  He claims that HE dislikes most bards and would choose to reward talent that appeals to him.  He hasn't made any claim whatsoever that this is how everyone should play.  And I'm not defending his stance, I'm defending him from your misrepresentation.  He hasn't attacked you, yet you seem intent on going for the jugular using any methods available, including plain lies.

So now you've stooped low enough to claim I'm lying for stating that his viewpoint regarding what is "talent", as you put it, is nothing more than an opinion rather than a black and white fact?  The fact that you also can't seperate an opinion from fact is also present here as well, and the inability to see past that because you think I'm misrepresenting him.  Yes, LoD, you're right, I must somehow be going for the jugular because I think he should be more compassionate toward other players on an ooc level.  Pardon-fucking-me for having a conscience.

Quote from: "LoD"It might do you well to stop explaining what other people have said, and stick to your own thoughts and opinions.  We can read for ourselves what is written, and likewise recognize poor attempts to cover up one's lies.

Wow, you've uncovered my fiendish master plan.  My true motives behind getting you to get your head out of your own ass is just a flimsy cover for world domination.  I am caught.  In all seriousness, the fact that I'm not the only person seeing it this way hasn't even dawned on you, because since I said it, and I disagree with you, it must be lies and misinterpretation?  So tell me, Sherlock: What exactly is my true modus operandi here?  I mean, I sure as hell thought it was to point out ooc feelings intruding on ic play for no other reason than a lack of appreciation for people trying to contribute to the game in a less cro-magnon manner, but I guess I have no way of understanding my own thoughts in the matter and need you to translate them for me.

Quote from: "LoD"Ungrateful, whining people?  We must be reading different threads.  Most of the posts have been constructive, if opinionated.  Get your facts straight before you start punching keys.  The largest "tantrums" have come from yourself and the others who have reacted strongly to what they perceive is an attack upon the "role" of the bard when it's been stated many times that it's much less about a bard's material than the presentation and present inability to tune them out if one so desires.

Again: Lack of agreement with you does not equate to a lack of understanding of the facts in the thread.  And yes, even some of the people claiming the problems with presentation are still showing an overall resentment toward the material and the class.  If you're feeling threatened by the statement, it might be pangs of guilt creeping in.  If you're not, then maybe it doesn't apply to you.  From what I'm seeing at the moment, you seem to feel it applies to you. ;)

Quote from: "LoD"Disuade people from playing bards because a handful of people on the GDB have mentioned that OOCly they don't like some of the material people have written?  That's your own choice to make if you feel beaten by a few opinions, but I've certainly seen nothing in game to make me believe that any majority of players are acting inappropriately toward bardic performances.  Heck, I've even paid some and my character is probably on the bottom of the list as far as "who should be supporting these bards" goes.  Many players do have the ability to separate their OOC opinions from the IC game regardless of what you believe.

Again, I'm specifically referring to people on the board who have said they didn't like bards in general or indicated such in their posts the way Seeker did.  And honestly, it takes only a few people acting like morons to spoil an rp experience like this, unfortunately.  Again, it doesn't matter if you agree with me or not; contrary to your belief, the world is not going to end as a result of our disagreement on the matter.  Many players have the ability to seperate ooc opinions, yes.  Many apparently do not, as indicated by this thread and the one on the commonality of mages.  Funny how that thread comes back to haunt, isn't it?

Quote from: "LoD"THAT is a fact.

You just love to set yourself up for disagreement, don't you?
Title: Re: Bards.
Post by: LoD on August 02, 2006, 02:18:10 PM
Quote from: "Intrepid"So tell me, Sherlock: What exactly is my true modus operandi here?

Elementary, my dear Watson.  To complain.  Which is what most of us are doing, in one way or another.  You just choose to be nasty about it.  Your reply to Seeker was insulting, personal, and exaggerated.  There was no attempt to be constructive, which is a clear sign that you're here to fight, not talk.

Bards are a wonderful part of the game, and its culture.  They have the opportunity to entertain, embolden, persuade, disseminate information, glorify, damn, idolize, and critcize our world and its people.  The role of the bard is perfectly alive and well within the game, but it can be a slippery slope to climb due to most depending upon the player populace for financial gain.

Some players are more resourceful than others, but the model is rather unkind to the bard because the goodwill of the common people, of which there are many, extends only as far as their pockets are deep.  When you make a salary of 300 coins a month, and drinks are 20 'sid apiece, feeding the hungry mouth of a bard almost borders on a lack of self preservation.

Yet, this has been the case for many years and I've seen no signs that the "bard" is to become an endangered species.  Constructive criticism implies a desire to see its subject improve.  Whether it needs improvement or not is a personal decision for each individual player and Immortal; both are empowered to make changes through several vehicles.  I know that I try to support bardic activities when I can, and indirectly improve them if I see someone that seems to struggle, whether it be IC or OOC.

The major complaints have been around the presentation of the bard's material, not the material itself nor the role of the bard in Armageddon.  It's relatively safe to assume that we will see more bards, despite what pessimistic efforts may be made to disuade future players.  I'm sure there are people that hate mundane characters, or magick characters, or half-giants, or muls, or any other character combination that you can put together, but that doesn't warrant an outburst - merely discussion.

So what I request of you, Intrepid, and others who feel empassioned by this subject, is to be more topical than personal, more critical than arguementative, and more approachable than defensive while stating your opinions and your case.  And I plan to do the same.

-LoD
Title: Re: Bards.
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 02:52:25 PM
Quote from: "LoD"Elementary, my dear Watson.  To complain.  Which is what most of us are doing, in one way or another.  You just choose to be nasty about it.  Your reply to Seeker was insulting, personal, and exaggerated.  There was no attempt to be constructive, which is a clear sign that you're here to fight, not talk.

Actually, all I did was state surprise in my initial post in this thread.  I implied in the statement that I thought you guys were being overly critical, and that was it.  A couple of well-meaning individuals stated that there were was not a dislike for bards.  I was being sarcastic and flippant to Seeker's post, but he pretty much summed up for me what was the epitome of my feelings toward anti-bards and their motives.  I was actually all done with my point and this thread until you posted.

Quote from: "LoD"Bards are a wonderful part of the game, and its culture.  They have the opportunity to entertain, embolden, persuade, disseminate information, glorify, damn, idolize, and critcize our world and its people.  The role of the bard is perfectly alive and well within the game, but it can be a slippery slope to climb due to most depending upon the player populace for financial gain.

There's nothing wrong with a slippery slope as long as it's not completely vertical.  I believe that an undisclosed number of people are unable to keep their ooc feelings seperate from their ic ones on this matter, and it's based on this and the thread on mages becoming commonplace recently.  I would like to add that, before these threads, I had no major opinions one way or another on the topic.  You guys changed that, it wasn't something I developed out of the blue.

QuoteSome players are more resourceful than others, but the model is rather unkind to the bard because the goodwill of the common people, of which there are many, extends only as far as their pockets are deep.  When you make a salary of 300 coins a month, and drinks are 20 'sid apiece, feeding the hungry mouth of a bard almost borders on a lack of self preservation.

To which I cannot disagree in the slightest.  Of course, I never believed it should easy for bards.  I'm only arguing that a number of people think it should be impossible based on their personal resentment as players.  In fact, the Bard class in Dark Sun was geared primarily toward dealings with nobles, templars and dynastic merchants, not commoners.  It seems to me like a patron would be vital.

Quote from: "LoD"Yet, this has been the case for many years and I've seen no signs that the "bard" is to become an endangered species.  Constructive criticism implies a desire to see its subject improve.  Whether it needs improvement or not is a personal decision for each individual player and Immortal; both are empowered to make changes through several vehicles.  I know that I try to support bardic activities when I can, and indirectly improve them if I see someone that seems to struggle, whether it be IC or OOC.

The playerbase opinions change over time, either because the players change in roster or because they change in mindset.  I said I would discourage players from playing bards.  I have contact with a grand total of one player outside of the game, and she isn't all that influenced by me.  If I end up discussing this matter on the forums or make a few more online friends, and this topic emerges in conversation again, my stance would be what I've been stating all along: Bards are not a player-friendly class at the moment.  My statement that I personally would not be making the bard I'd been planning to make was just that: a statement concerning my own intentions.  If you think I'm somehow going to start a pro-culture revolution in the playerbase at some point soon, you're definitely overestimating my interests and resourcefulness in this matter.

QuoteThe major complaints have been around the presentation of the bard's material, not the material itself nor the role of the bard in Armageddon.  It's relatively safe to assume that we will see more bards, despite what pessimistic efforts may be made to disuade future players.  I'm sure there are people that hate mundane characters, or magick characters, or half-giants, or muls, or any other character combination that you can put together, but that doesn't warrant an outburst - merely discussion.

More power to them; better them than me.  My main statement was that I would not be playing one after having read this thread and would discourage others if it came up in conversation.  You decided you were going to attack me about this after you took it upon yourself to take the non-existent moral high ground in what you believed was defending Seeker, an individual I'm fairly certain doesn't care either way what my viewpoint on the situation is.

Quote from: "LoD"So what I request of you, Intrepid, and others who feel empassioned by this subject, is to be more topical than personal, more critical than arguementative, and more approachable than defensive while stating your opinions and your case.  And I plan to do the same.

It's refreshing to see you taking co-ownership of this exchange with me for a change, rather than trying to place it squarely on my shoulders.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on August 02, 2006, 04:35:40 PM
Intrepid, I'd like to point out one thing.  In this thread, so far, noone has said they want no bards in game.  In fact, most people have actually said they really want good bards, and then say what they see as a common bad thing bards do.  Sure, some people have said some strong things in one way...but they have never attacked people for their defense of bards, while you and a few others have attacked people for their dislike of certain aspects of how bards are played.

My suggestion, stop it.  You're not making things any better.  As I've been reading your back and forth with LoD, images of how you both look while typing has been coming into my mind.  I picture LoD sighing and shaking his head as he reads through what you type...and you screaming at the monitor as you respond in turn.  That's from the tone of your writing.  I'll let you draw your own conclusions about what the tone in the different writings does for an argument.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: NotJesus on August 02, 2006, 05:00:40 PM
Quoteyou took it upon yourself to take the non-existent moral high ground

Though probably taken out of context i just want to chime in there and apologizing in advance for derailment.

I feel that lately there has been a serious lack of respect for fellow players. This seems to have gone beyond this thread and seems present in others. Now because of this, holier-then-thou comments tend to be emerging, while possibly posted with good intentions they will still either feed the trolling or worse are nothing but be a form of trolling itself. It doesn't help and your usually just making people angrier.

From my point of view, no one including myself can really criticize other without being a hypocrite in this GDB. Maybe the imms but its not because they shown in the past that their any better (no offense) but because its their job to maintain order.

Please note this is coming from someone who is no better, but the suggestion i have for myself and others is learn some humility and to at least try to have some respect for other players and their feelings.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Seeker on August 02, 2006, 05:17:04 PM
I stand by my original post, word for word, but I am not interested in the aggressive hostility.  Intrepid, if you wish to continue in that direction, I would request you use PMs.  I will answer them privately and politely.  Apparently we strongly disagree on precisely what I think.... which is interesting and mildly amusing.

I will state again that I enjoy bards immensely, but my point was clear.

If someone plays a bard very poorly, I will not enjoy her.  Its that simple.  The same is true of a poorly played dwarf, a poorly played Templar, or a poorly played brainless merc.  The amount of effort the player spends is invisible and therefore irrelevant to me.

My personal opinion cannot be the prime determinate in how my character will react, though.  It doesn't  mean that anyone else in the game will or should agree with my opinion on any particular bard, either.

Circle Bards, in the Northlands, have a unique situation.  Like magickers, there is a set of rules affecting everyone else's RP around them.  Documentation mandates that loyal Tulukis', through their appreciation of art, give bards some measure of support, attention, and/or admiration.  

I'd ask Northern bards to be courteous of this special status.  I just don't always want my PC to be commandeered to play a bard's appreciative audience.  Especially if I think the bard is crappy.  Sometimes, there are other things I want to do IG when in public.  My PCs beg bards I enjoy to perform; I know others do to.  


Seeker
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2006, 05:35:34 PM
It should be noted that it isn't WHAT people are saying (not everything at least)  thats making other 'react' harshly its HOW they are saying it.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Shalooonsh on August 02, 2006, 05:40:05 PM
A badly played good bard is a travesty.

A well played horrible bard is a thing to treasure.


Get this thread back on track.  Stop the escalation.

kthx.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 06:00:16 PM
Quote from: "Seeker"I stand by my original post, word for word, but I am not interested in the aggressive hostility.  Intrepid, if you wish to continue in that direction, I would request you use PMs.  I will answer them privately and politely.  Apparently we strongly disagree on precisely what I think.... which is interesting and mildly amusing.

I didn't expect you to change your viewpoint nor agree with me.  In fact, I'm surprised you were concerned enough to respond.  My interest level in the thread did not go beyond my third post, in fact.  All posts since then have been obligatory responses to LoD and now you.

Quote from: "spawnloser"Intrepid, I'd like to point out one thing. In this thread, so far, noone has said they want no bards in game. In fact, most people have actually said they really want good bards, and then say what they see as a common bad thing bards do. Sure, some people have said some strong things in one way...but they have never attacked people for their defense of bards, while you and a few others have attacked people for their dislike of certain aspects of how bards are played.

Actually, the notion that there is a set formula for what makes a bard "good" is what I've had issue with from the beginning here.  Anyone or anything being good at what they do is incidental and entirely subjective.  It's a lot like saying: "I'll only eat good strawberries."  How do you seperate those people who are biased toward liking all strawberries versus someone who hates strawberries?  Preferences are just that; they're not fact.  My original intent in all of this was to point out that you guys were overly critical enough that I didn't consider playing a bard to be a feasible option any longer.  I keep bringing up the subjective nature of an opinion, yet it continues to be responded to as black and white truth.  I believe this misunderstanding alone is a good enough indicator to cause undue negativity toward anyone in the role due to ooc bias.  I think Tlaloc put it rather well in a previous thread: We're ok with someone being an ic prick, but not with someone being an ooc prick.  Unfortunately, I think the lines are too blurred here for practicality's sake.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Jherlen on August 02, 2006, 06:26:39 PM
I'm more inclined to agree with Seeker's 'controversial' post (I skipped the massive exchange between Intrepid/LoD entirely).

You can play a bard (and be an entertaining one) without inflicting badly "Zalanthised" pop lyrics on the playerbase, without inflicting poorly constructed poetry, without outright copying songs from fantasy novels (I once saw a bard sing the lyrics from the song Pippin sings in Return of the King verbatim), and without acting like every single person in the town loves you.

If you recognise your skills at composing original poetry are not so great (which is nothing to be ashamed of), you could either have your character recognise this fact ICly as well, or focus on different aspects of bardery.

Bards can tell jokes, stories, record histories and events, spread rumors, and plenty of other things without requiring as much creative talent in composition. I'd love to see more bards focusing just on charisma and personality rather than trying to base a reputation off of songs and performances which some people don't seem to read anyway.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: spawnloser on August 02, 2006, 06:33:53 PM
Noone ever said what made a good bard...there are so many things to do so.  There are a few glaring things that stand out about bad bards.  It is often easier to point out what is wrong than what is right after all...and that's what people are doing.  If this is what's wrong, than what's right must include what's not mentioned.

There is, however, something to be said about using captivating writing, which is a skill...and there is a non-objective way to rate it.  There is good writing and bad writing, regardless of style and preference on style.  Preference on style is a matter of opinion.  For example, there is such a thing as a good movie that I wouldn't care to see...and a bad movie that I would love to...simply because I love the style.  I can still recognize whether it is a good or bad piece of art.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 06:52:30 PM
Quote from: "Jherlen"(I skipped the massive exchange between Intrepid/LoD entirely).

Don't worry.  You didn't miss much.  I was there.

Quote from: "Jherlen"You can play a bard (and be an entertaining one) without inflicting badly "Zalanthised" pop lyrics on the playerbase, without inflicting poorly constructed poetry, without outright copying songs from fantasy novels (I once saw a bard sing the lyrics from the song Pippin sings in Return of the King verbatim), and without acting like every single person in the town loves you.

Has anyone tried talking to these people about it?  While the forum can reach a good many people, not everyone logs in here.

Quote from: "Jherlen"If you recognise your skills at composing original poetry are not so great (which is nothing to be ashamed of), you could either have your character recognise this fact ICly as well, or focus on different aspects of bardery.

Bards can tell jokes, stories, record histories and events, spread rumors, and plenty of other things without requiring as much creative talent in composition. I'd love to see more bards focusing just on charisma and personality rather than trying to base a reputation off of songs and performances which some people don't seem to read anyway.

I think the fixation with music is an unfortunate symptom of the Bard's Circle requirements.  No matter which type of Bard you hail from, you have to know at least one instrument.  Maybe if the docs were changed to reflect Bards who are not singers and not poets.  Thespians, jesters and numerous others could have their time in the limelight.

Quote from: "spawnloser"There is, however, something to be said about using captivating writing, which is a skill...and there is a non-objective way to rate it. There is good writing and bad writing, regardless of style and preference on style. Preference on style is a matter of opinion. For example, there is such a thing as a good movie that I wouldn't care to see...and a bad movie that I would love to...simply because I love the style. I can still recognize whether it is a good or bad piece of art.

To bring a close analogy to the fore, I hate Ernest Hemingway's writing.  I can't even begin to imagine how so many of my English teachers enjoyed him.  He was descriptive, but he was verbose and boring.  On the other hand, I love Anne Rice's earlier work.  She was descriptive, but many other people found her to be verbose and boring.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 02, 2006, 07:08:11 PM
Quote from: "Intrepid"I think the fixation with music is an unfortunate symptom of the Bard's Circle requirements.  No matter which type of Bard you hail from, you have to know at least one instrument.  Maybe if the docs were changed to reflect Bards who are not singers and not poets.  Thespians, jesters and numerous others could have their time in the limelight.

The fixation is not just in the documentation, though. It's in the player base also. Nine times out of ten, if a character asks a bard to perform something, it's a song they're asking for. Jokes are almost never requested, stories a bit more frequently, current news/events more frequently than that. Competitions and commissions from Important People also tend to focus almost exclusively on songs.

Players could help change this, perhaps, by adding more jokes/stories/whatever to the general game documentation. Then bards who don't have a ready store of these things in their heads would have something to pull from.

I don't think it's the Arcs or other documentation and tradition of the Circle that needs to change, at all. There is plenty of "other stuff" in the Arcs and in the various sub-Circles. But if the player base was more aware that not all bards (not even most of them, necessarily) are primarily singer/songwriters, then bards would get asked to do more of a variety of things, so bards would respond by creating a better variety of things, and different stuff would be available to bards of the future.

Ask your local bard today for a joke or story or bit of news. Be the change you want to see ;)
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 07:27:51 PM
I actually didn't get my point across very well, so I went back to the Bard documentation and skimmed it to find what I was originally referring to.

Most bards, in theory, would like to become master bards--or I assume they would--despite their intended rarity.  To become a master bard, no matter which division of the Circle you're from, you have to complete the Arcs of Learning.  These arcs are like standardized tests of fitness, so certain types of bards will be better suited than others.  Two out of the six arcs have to do with music and singing, respectively.  The tests are set to promote a certain type of bard rather than an atypical one.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Jherlen on August 02, 2006, 07:28:08 PM
I have seen (and hosted) storytelling/joke competitions that were a riot -- and MUCH more memorable than competitions based on songs. Would encourage more people to host these also.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Gimfalisette on August 02, 2006, 07:41:57 PM
Quote from: "Intrepid"To become a master bard, no matter which division of the Circle you're from, you have to complete the Arcs of Learning.  These arcs are like standardized tests of fitness, so certain types of bards will be better suited than others.  Two out of the six arcs have to do with music and singing, respectively.  The tests are set to promote a certain type of bard rather than an atypical one.

And the other four Arcs have nothing at all to do with music. Even the two music-slanted Arcs are not entirely about playing/singing music, as instrument crafting is encompassed as well. Also the Arcs are really more about competency, not virtuosity. A bard needs to be competent in song and instrumental, yes, but isn't required to excel in those areas. Notice too that there's no requirement for composition beyond the impromptu song. The Arcs promote a well-rounded bard, not just a typical one. Anyone who's interested could ask around to various Circle bards and find out--there will be those who specialize in dance, humor, composition, acting, instrument making, sculpting, painting, and lots of different kinds of arts at different points in time. They just won't mention it all that often, because non-bard characters are expecting them to just sing.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Intrepid on August 02, 2006, 07:48:23 PM
I realize that.  My point is that the docs do encourage a certain bent for bards who wish to become Master Bards someday, and that may account for the large number of budding musicians referred to.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Medena on August 02, 2006, 08:32:57 PM
A bard delivering an instrumental performance while people sat at a table in the Atrium talking.

These were very long and intricate emotes. No vocals. A virtuoso performance.  It didn't demand attention though and somehow seemed to blend in as "background music". It lent a rich layer of atmosphere to the scene and I was in awe of the detailed visual images this bard's player was able to create.

A bard improvising a song about my PC while we sat on a couch in the Barrel.

Very short lines. Rotten poetry. Emotes which involved a bit of lute playing but were fairly short. He made it up on the spot! I was impressed and my PC was totally smitten with his charms.

An Anyali woman singing in the Bard's Barrel.

Medium length lines. So-so poetry but nice images. Emotes involving smiling and playing a stringed instrument. The song itself was not memorable (sorry to the player), in fact I can't even remember its subject matter. It was how the character of this PC was so richly conveyed. She was warm and charming, in a low-key sort of way. I believed she had a nice voice. I believed she had a decent technique on the instrument.

These are a sampling of the performances which stick out in my mind as well done. And my point in writing them was to show how it is not the length of line, nor the quality of the poetry nor what is presented in emotes that make for a good performance.  I cannot sum up what makes for a good performance other than to say that I believed in that moment. I believed the RP.

There are lots of sorts of technical considerations bards can do to assist in drawing people into believing in their moment such as considering line length, timing, accompanying emotes, etc. But there is no one universal way that is best. It depends upon the material, the venue, those present, the situation and so on.

When I write a piece I spend probably just as much time in planning the presentation as I do on the words themselves.  If I want the piece to have a bouncy, rollicking feel to it I will opt for short lines and deliver them as fast as I can get them out so that the effect is not lost. If I want it to feel like a haunting, soft melody with a real flow,  I'll make long lines which combine many of my poem's lines into just one "sing".  I consider how much  other stuff is going to be going on in the place, ie. in terms of intervening action when I plan presentation. In a busy tavern I am probably going to do pretty short emotes because the long ones get lost in the scrolling and a lot of people probably only just read the song lines.  If the piece is for a competition or other very specific occasion, I will dream up ways of making it into a total performance. Since I want people to appreciate the work I have written, I try to find ways that make it easy for them, and doesnt feel like work.  Sometimes I know that with all the other action going on, people just won't be able to take in every single line so I try to decide which parts are the most important for what I want to convey, then I figure out how to punch up those sections.

We all do try to please.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Jherlen on August 03, 2006, 05:38:48 AM
Quote from: "Intrepid"
Quote from: "Jherlen"You can play a bard (and be an entertaining one) without inflicting badly "Zalanthised" pop lyrics on the playerbase, without inflicting poorly constructed poetry, without outright copying songs from fantasy novels (I once saw a bard sing the lyrics from the song Pippin sings in Return of the King verbatim), and without acting like every single person in the town loves you.

Has anyone tried talking to these people about it?  While the forum can reach a good many people, not everyone logs in here.

Just wanted to go back and add: I was tempted to OOC and say something, but decided against it for the sake of politeness and minimal use of the OOC channel. If anyone was going to address such things I think it would probably have to be staff. Such performances do often leave me not wanting as much to watch the same bard perform in the future, though.
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Northlander on August 04, 2006, 06:57:18 PM
Hey. The thread was intended as a firestarter and I appreciate all the heated responses.

I think there's a place for bards in Armageddon just as there's a place for them in Zalanthas. There is a place for good bards, and there is a place for bad bards.
We should respect emotes detailing skill in song and instrumentation. If someone emotes of great awesomeness on the lute, then go with it no matter how little time you've seen him in-game. You might respect the player less, just as you'd respect a Byn backflipper less, but take the emote for the truth it is.
Lyrics must be judged by their own merit and not by the number of real-life hours spent by a player in their writing. Swiftness of composition is still laudable, but real-life concerns aren't a part of roleplaying.
I don't mind when songs are put onto the in-game boards. I like it very much, it gives me something to read when I'm bored. But you needn't have it hummed by VNPC fans. Give a specific bard - perhaps your own character - as singing it.
Don't blow your own trumpet too feverishly by putting wildly cheering VNPC:s into your emotes. A few odd heads turning, a small bit of coin being tossed your way, they all would work. Don't go above and beyond unless you play a well-known Master Bard.
I stand by my other advice to bards: sing out of doors. While you say you don't want to perform to VNPC:s alone, I don't think you want to force yourselves onto PC:s either. Put it in a competition or put it before those who stop outside a tavern or by an often-passed road as you give your best emote. Earlier today I was even far out of the way in the Eclectic Garden and a lovely newbie passed by, danced to my character's song (Thank you).

This piece of documentation, from General Documentation - Cities, I hadn't seen before: "The citizens of the North have a well-known hunger for art of any kind and of any quality."
I'll interpret this as if Tuluki citizens enjoy both applauding and booing.
Yes, there are people that would like poor poems, there are people that would like all poems, there are people that would like poor poems only if they're about his mother. If your character would like a poem, do please have him like it. I also ask that if your character would dislike a poem you have him do so as well. I hope it is not in the spirit of our harsh game that unaffiliated bards or even Apprentices and Seekers of any Circle should give verse worse than the common man and still be above his contempt.

Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd give my three favourite songs from the Original Submissions:
A Monologue, The Tilted Stool, and The Wind Blows Over The Plains.

Anyone want to comment my picks or join in with a few of their own?
Title: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: Barzalene on August 04, 2006, 07:26:00 PM
I like the ones by that Barzalene chick...oh...never mind.
Title: Re: Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!
Post by: tiny rainbow on July 20, 2021, 10:24:45 AM
Bumping this with link to dancing *and songwriting* advice thread as well:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55440.msg1042879.html#msg1042879

Valeria might be the best player in the game at writing songs BTW, your challenge is to beat them