Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => World and Roleplaying Discussion => Topic started by: Sanvean on July 11, 2006, 02:34:08 PM

Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Sanvean on July 11, 2006, 02:34:08 PM
This came in over the request tool:

This is a pretty broad, light complaint which is more of a suggestion than anything.


Having played an Allanak () with my last character and then a Tuluki (), I've noticed with both characters that the non-magicker population seems to be completely ignorant and even encouraged by gemmed magickers' magick-casting, magick-threatening and general magickal presense. I know quite a bit about Zalanthas and on thing is that commoner characters, of both city-states fear magickers, gemmed or ungemmed, especially when they're using their magicks so freely and so excessively. Now, maybe every single person in the Allanaki camp has been dulled by the magicks surrounding them, maybe they just got used to it. But I doubt my two last statements.


So, I'd suggest that perhaps, somehow, the non-magicker characters could somehow be advised or encouraged to have just a bit more fear of all the magick that's going on, since that is the realistic standard that would, in my opinion, be occuring with the Allanaki army. I don't know how this would be done but I'm sure you guys would know.
Quote

This seems like a reasonable thing to bear in mind when playing.  Remember that magick is a strange and scary thing and RP accordingly.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: moab on July 11, 2006, 02:47:46 PM
Be the change you want to see.

You want people to fear magick?  Make them fear magick.

I dunno.  Maybe that sounds a bit harsh, but you can bet if I'm hanging out with two of my best buddies and you fry them both, I'm going to be sh*ting my pants.

Use the "look i'm a nice mage" "no i'm not!!!" type to really mix it up.  If mages were _scarier_ we would fear them.

Templars are scary, imo, not because they can kill us in a blink - but because of their potential and their corruption.  We, players, expect templars to be sneaky and corrupt.  We can't trust them and we can hardly do anything about it - that _is_ scary.

Mages need to be the same way to truly get at the scary.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Intrepid on July 11, 2006, 02:48:25 PM
Yeah, I had that dilemna myself playing in the militia.  The templars at the time were rather magicker-happy and were regularly inviting those freaks with our mundane pcs.  As a result, my pc, while definitely disturbed by the proceedings, was more afraid of pissing off the templar who invited said magicker.  As a result that pc developed an "eyes forward, clamp jaw" response to it all.

I realize that magickers are tools.  I also realize that militia are tools in the same analogy.  I would rather not take the chance of being a tool who kills another tool and finds out, too late, that I was the less useful of the set.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2006, 02:56:41 PM
Realistically, would a person who has spent over 200 hundred days around magick still be terrified of seeing things like, for instance, grass spring up around a magicker when she walks, or, uh, a bald man with fiery hair (these are examples ... noone is doing that who plays with me, but the things that are happening are simular)?

After a while, given that these soldiers can be and might be fed and watered by magickers or perhaps have had their lives saved or their strength returned in battle, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that somebody becomes acceptant of the fact that they are serving with magickers?

You assume that the average commoner of standard intellect, superstitious or not, who has been pressed into such a situation, would become innured to some extent. Maybe they won't marry a magicker and run off and have glow-eyed children, but to still cower everytime they see a miracle seems ... pretty damned stupid.

They probably won't beg for enchantments and all that, but I just don't see them all still flocking to the other side of the camp when a water-bearing cactus pops up or a dead and fully skinned mekillot corpse suddenly appears.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Boop on July 11, 2006, 03:05:04 PM
Playing a character in the northern army, I'd like to comment this from my perspective.

It is hard to be afraid of magick. Faithful Templars exude, as they perhaps should, a complete calm towards any magick threat. Their example and orders were followed first by characters with "experience", well congratulated upon draw sword; kill magicker. It has quickly become the PC norm and by going against the grain one is suddenly playing a coward or one whose faith in the Faithful is not as strong as others, which isn't necessarily what one wants to do. Even after the encounter shivering hands and voice are uncommon.

In my mind, the natural response to magick from any mundane northerner would be to stand and stare at it. And the second time and ninety times after that you'd draw your sword and stare at it. I'd like new, powerful, defensive magick to promote this, because a handful of players can't do it alone. Just as with bruising in spars and fumbling in combat, un-ninja stuff is very rare when left to the playerbase and the one who types 'kill magicker' is the hero.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 11, 2006, 03:16:27 PM
Playing a Tuluki as well, it's hard to stay so freaked out about magickers all the time when encounters are so frequent -and- there is so much other important stuff going on. My PC is handling three conversations at a time usually, and one of those might be about "so-and-so saw a magicker/abomination, where was it, who's taking care of it", but the other conversations are equally important. Often, at least for my PC, there's an IC casualness that is much more about "I've got too much crap to take care of right now to freak out about anything" than it indicates no fear of magickers. There's plenty of fear, but in a time of war, with the adrenaline going and so much work to do, there's just no time to -act- frightened. And in fact, that really seems totally IC to me.

And to counter the complaint, I've seen some PCs lately being really paranoid and freaked out or cautious about direct interaction with magickers and/or paranoia about magickers. (Four times in the last RL week, with four different characters.) Some of these have been near-hysteria situations.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Dalmeth on July 11, 2006, 03:16:42 PM
No offense, but magickers are getting too common to be mysterious anymore.  Even then, they act like super powered humans, not mysterious monsters.

Maybe if they had a ritual to invoke these storms that involved virgin sacfrice.  That it!  More virgin sacrifices!
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2006, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: "moab"Be the change you want to see.

You want people to fear magick?  Make them fear magick.

I dunno.  Maybe that sounds a bit harsh, but you can bet if I'm hanging out with two of my best buddies and you fry them both, I'm going to be sh*ting my pants.

Use the "look i'm a nice mage" "no i'm not!!!" type to really mix it up.  If mages were _scarier_ we would fear them.

Templars are scary, imo, not because they can kill us in a blink - but because of their potential and their corruption.  We, players, expect templars to be sneaky and corrupt.  We can't trust them and we can hardly do anything about it - that _is_ scary.

Mages need to be the same way to truly get at the scary.

But a commoner's fear is based on the lack of knowledge about magick, not on the magicker. A magicker isn't supposed to be playing 'scary' because they are magickers. They are just normal folks with ... well, with problems. They don't generally want people to run away from them.

So you can't say that all or even most magickers should be scary, because that's something they won't be doing. Commoner PCs are the ones who have to reinforce the fear of magick. There is a great player in the game who does a very good job of this, even though his character has to work around them and despite criticism from folks ranking higher than he. Maybe I should send him a kudos.

If I were an average Northerner, I would still be very disturbed, if not terrified. But if I were an average Southerner, I would be complacent, if not happy.

There's a saying in RW armies: War changes a man. Well, these PCs are at War, you have to allow deduction and reason to play its part in your character's life as much as you allow fear and superstition to play their parts.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cale_Knight on July 11, 2006, 03:35:23 PM
When a man is put into a situation where magickers are saving his ass daily, he finds it difficult to remain terrified of them. That's really the bottom line.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Hymwen on July 11, 2006, 03:36:04 PM
I've always found it hard to be truly scared of magickers in all scenarios. In Allanak they're all over the place, in Tuluk very few people ever see them, and now with the war, people (at least on the Allanak side, I haven't seen the other) are forced to sit around watching groups of magickers literally spam-cast spells, throwing oasises and enchantments and glowing balls left and right. I was only at the war for a few hours, and I got to see several magickers doing what seemed to be simply practicing their spells in wide open, in front of an army. From what I've heard this goes on at all times, loads of magickers casting to their hearts' desire when the army needs water, food, healing, enchantments, or if they feel like they should practice their spells. A rare few have done what I thought made more sense: going a bit away from the camp to do it instead of sitting around next to the army who is going to defend your city, casting spells which should terrify the pants off of them.

If I was a common soldier, I'd find it hard to be scared of magick, both from an IC and OOC point of view. The vast majority of the magick you see is when someone creates water for you, makes you stronger, saves your life, makes you stop bleeding, creates light when it's dark. Why should you as a rule be terrified of all magick? Especially when you see magick being cast nearly constantly within earshot, seeing magickal currents and mysterious mists flowing through the camp every time you turn your head. Should you live in constant terror? Would the Highlord want his entire army shaking in their boots at all times? Unease, suspicion, prejudice and distrust - fine. Utter terror when almost all the magick you see is so obviously to your benefit? I don't get it.

QuoteThere is a great player in the game who does a very good job of this, even though his character has to work around them and despite criticism from folks ranking higher than he. Maybe I should send him a kudos.

Do it, send them a kudos. It's one of the best things you can do when you see someone doing something good and outside of the norm. If you want people to do something, and only see a few doing it, the best way to make more people do it is to compliment and reward the ones who do it right.

edit:
QuoteWhen a man is put into a situation where magickers are saving his ass daily, he finds it difficult to remain terrified of them. That's really the bottom line.

Yep.. Cale put into two lines what it took me a page to say :)
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Saphreal on July 11, 2006, 03:36:36 PM
I would like to agree with San on this one.  I would like to see more people showing fear toward magick, especially on the Tulukis side of the war.  With all the gemmers in camp on the Allanaki side, VNPCS, NPCS and PCS, I will understand if some of you have grown more callused to magick.  Actually, I think that would be a lot of fun to RP out, and I give you props for it.  But just remember that innately, commoners fear magick--both in the north and in the south.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Ghost on July 11, 2006, 03:36:51 PM
Quote from: "Dalmeth"No offense, but magickers are getting too common to be mysterious anymore.  Even then, they act like super powered humans, not mysterious monsters.

Let us worry about the magicker population and you worry about your RPing.

EDIT:  I am freaking out.. I did not write the above comment!  Saphreal is eating my brainz!
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Saphreal on July 11, 2006, 03:38:22 PM
I hear a lot of complaining on this thread, lol.  This is part of the documentation.  One of the most fun things about RP on Armageddon is trying to role-play within the restriction of the documentation.  I want to see less people bitching and more people getting creative.  :D
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cuusardo on July 11, 2006, 03:39:19 PM
I would think that there are some people on both sides that think "Am I more afraid of possibly being hurt by these magickers, or am I more afraid of definitely being killed by my templars or the militia for being a coward?"
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cale_Knight on July 11, 2006, 03:42:21 PM
Quote from: "Saphreal"But just remember that innately, commoners fear magick--both in the north and in the south.

Innately? No, it's not innate. There's no portion of the commoner genome that says "fear magickers."

It's a societal trait - the result of social pressures and tradition. And that sort of thing can be broken under the right circumstances. I really do think a prolonged engagement like this can be those circumstances, depending on the particular commoner involved.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Saphreal on July 11, 2006, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: "Cuusardo"I would think that there are some people on both sides that think "Am I more afraid of possibly being hurt by these magickers, or am I more afraid of definitely being killed by my templars or the militia for being a coward?"

Certainly, what we would like to see is not people running for the hills at the sight of a magicker, but perhaps throwing out a complicated think depicting his struggle with his fears.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Saphreal on July 11, 2006, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"
Quote from: "Saphreal"But just remember that innately, commoners fear magick--both in the north and in the south.

Innately? No, it's not innate. There's no portion of the commoner genome that says "fear magickers."

It's a societal trait - the result of social pressures and tradition. And that sort of thing can be broken under the right circumstances. I really do think a prolonged engagement like this can be those circumstances, depending on the particular commoner involved.

Yes, and you have likely seen this.  What we are saying is that for many of the players there was not enough struggle to get there.  When the camps were first erected, and the magickers and the commoners came together, there wasn't the stuggle that one might expect.  We are not singling anyone out, just saying as a whole this is something important to keep in mind.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Saphreal on July 11, 2006, 03:49:03 PM
I feel like I have given my 2 'sids worth on this, so I will not comment on this further.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 11, 2006, 03:51:22 PM
Quote from: "Saphreal"I would like to agree with San on this one.  I would like to see more people showing fear toward magick, especially on the Tulukis side of the war.  With all the gemmers in camp on the Allanaki side, VNPCS, NPCS and PCS, I will understand if some of you have grown more callused to magick.  Actually, I think that would be a lot of fun to RP out, and I give you props for it.  But just remember that innately, commoners fear magick--both in the north and in the south.

Why should my Tuluki character be quaking in her boots at the mere thought of magick when every time I log in, I have to deal with it in some sense? There's a -war- on, half the people my character knew have died, there is important work to be done, there's just no time to be freaking out constantly about magick.

To make a fairly lame analogy, I drive in my car to work every day. I know that accidents can be very dangerous. There is always a worry in the back of my head as to what some other crazy driver will do to me. But I'm not freaking out about it, even though I fear it.

Freaking out is not the only way to express fear, is my point. It would be very un-IC for my character to faint or to run away screaming at the thought of magick or an encounter with a magicker. She has other methods of dealing with her fear.

It also would seem really weird and wrong to me if most soldiers on the Tuluki side were freaking out visibly about magick. For one thing, they -know- their lives are in danger in some way or another; magickers are just one of the methods by which they could die. For another thing, soldiers at war get hardened to stuff, and they live in an ethos where it's more "tough" to not express fear.

Again, just because a character isn't crying, screaming, and wetting their pants, it doesn't mean they are not afraid.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: elvenchipmunk on July 11, 2006, 03:57:32 PM
When I think of people fighting magickers in war, I think of that one scene in The Return of the King when Minas Tirith's gate is brought down by that gigantic battering ram shaped like a dog.

Basically, Gandalf says "Whatever comes through those gates, you will stand your ground."

Then the trolls come through, and the soldiers hesitate, then charge the trolls.

I think that's the way it should be. Your character is uncertain about what sort of things the magickers can do, so they will hesitate, but will follow their fellow soldiers into combat anyways.

Another one from LOTR is in the first one at the very beginning when Sauron comes out and starts fucking everyone up.

Those aren't the best of analogies, but the soldiers' reactions to these two things could be similar to what Zalanthan soldiers' (Tulukis specifically, I suppose) should be to magicker attacks.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Good Gortok on July 11, 2006, 03:58:15 PM
My PC showed fear, and because he is a rather simple and stupid guy, he showed fear in the form of excess anger and scornful behavior towards magickers. He was ICly told not to do that, and to treat them like he would treat anyone else in the camp. The end.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Anonymous on July 11, 2006, 03:58:17 PM
I also can only speak from the perpective of the Tuluki camp and say there is  or are some PCs with adequte fear...faced one on one with magickers..you'll see some emoted and RPed fear.

However when that fears presents its self on your PC, you'll have these beautiful and powerful templars telling them ...Do not be afraid, have faith in us, we will protect you, they are no match for us etc etc, the imms also know they have other ways of convining your PC...

this isn't wrong, in fact its perfectly IC...but it keeps happening over and over...magick attack after magick.. So eventually the question all the people at the camp will ask themselves is our fear greater then our faith and love in His radiance and His Faithful. The fact that they are still there means Faith>fear

On top of this soldiers have family and friends back at home which they care about...almost all are there out of 'cult' love for their city...being labeled a coward and/or a traitor is more of a serious thing in Tuluk i think.

Therefore after X amount of exposer to magickers+ Y amount of retoric and harassment for being afraid +Z amount of fear turning into anger...well even i find myself having a hard time showing any level of fear after a while....it just gets old.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Sarah on July 11, 2006, 04:00:00 PM
Realistically, I agree that when there are so many magickers casting all around you on a regular basis, mainly to help you (food, water, protection), that you would become habituated. I mean, if we were so scared ALL the time during the war, we'd all keel over from heart attacks from the stress of it all. People adapt. That's nature.

I think that commoners should be wary of magickers still, only in that the average commoner would, upon reflection, find themselves overwhelmed, and it would still seem, at least in a way, unnatural.

We're people. We're always at least a little freaked out by the things we don't completely understand. Some of us are a little more cool and collected than others, so are a little more mellow, some will never get used to it (eg my grandmother and computers). We don't necessarily lose our heads over it, but we can still be kind of nervous (eg me and computers).

EDIT: (speaking from a 'Nakker's perspective)
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Ghost on July 11, 2006, 04:01:17 PM
Okay, to take it more seriously:

I actually like the way people are treating the magickers.  I have had a few encounters recently, where people definitely turned their back to the magickers, and showed an obvious "you are not liked around here" signs.  In some cases, magickers even left the area seeing the hostility.  And that, I think, is quite a good way of RPing the distrust, hate, and even fear.

I do not think the fear of magick is too out of place at the moment.  Though, I have not been to HRPT, I do not know how people are holding it in there.

To make my point in my earlier post:  It is not wholly on the mundane part.  Sometimes it is on the magickers' side too.  Some magickers are acting like they are the nobility.  Some are acting like they are the tektolness.  
Well on the mundane characters, some people are acting like "You can do that?  Wow!  What else?  Really?  Magick me up so I can kill scrabs!!".  
It is on the both sides.  But all in all, I don't see much problem in the RPing the reaction to magick.

P.S:  Disclaimer:  Derailment.
Recently in  this thread (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20411) there were alot of people finding the number of magickers in the game too much to actually roleplay the magicker fear/hatred/distrust appropriately.  I kind of agree with them.  To make a comparison:  In Star Wars IV, V and VI, there were few jedi and they were not throwing around the Force around, and those episodes rock as hell.  Jedi stays mysterious and powerful.  Now take Episode I, II and III.  It is like, everybody and his dog is jedi or at least can use force somehow somewhere.  And jedi is not mysterious anymore they are just getting to be "an action accessory" which you enjoy watching while having some popcorn and soda.

P.P.S:  It was you, was not it, Saphreal?
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Rhyden on July 11, 2006, 04:03:11 PM
Quote from: "Intrepid"Yeah, I had that dilemna myself playing in the militia.  The templars at the time were rather magicker-happy and were regularly inviting those freaks with our mundane pcs.  As a result, my pc, while definitely disturbed by the proceedings, was more afraid of pissing off the templar who invited said magicker.  As a result that pc developed an "eyes forward, clamp jaw" response to it all.

Since I guess you're talking about the Allanaki Templarate on this one, I wouldn't see much wrong with this. That's essentially what the gemmed mages are there for. As tools for the Templarate to use at their disposal. If the Templars are mixing up mages with ordinary militia, that's their problem if the militia starts getting afraid and demoralized, I don't think it should mean the militia would be getting more 'used to' these magickers.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Realistically, would a person who has spent over 200 hundred days around magick still be terrified of seeing things like, for instance, grass spring up around a magicker when she walks, or, uh, a bald man with fiery hair (these are examples ... noone is doing that who plays with me, but the things that are happening are simular)?

I think that after a -long- time, mundane characters may get a little more used to magickers spells, especially if said magickers are making the mundane character's food. But still, I'd think most mundane characters would still be a little hesistant to eating some magicker-food over some real stuff. I can't see mundane characters getting used to magickers using more lethal spells than meal-making though. The biggest issue, I think, isn't mundane characters getting used to magick, it's mundane characters supporting, encouraging, liking and laughing at the spells magickers use.

Quote from: "Cale_Knight"When a man is put into a situation where magickers are saving his ass daily, he finds it difficult to remain terrified of them. That's really the bottom line.

That's true, but when magickers are saving the asses of mundane people, there might be some sort of problem going on. As a mundane character with magickers saving me every day, I'd probably be thinking to myself some questions such as: "Why are these magickers apparently so powerful that they're saving me and others every single day?" and "Why aren't the Templarate and the mundane militia saving us instead of the magickers?" or "Are these magickers more powerful than us then?" because these questions, still, will make the mundane chraracter terrified of magickers, even if they are saving his ass every day.

Sure, your mundane characters may be getting used to magicks, but I think it would take a much longer time than this war's duration so far. And even then, I still think a mundane character who's been helped, saved and fought with magickers for fifty years would still have a little bit of fear and hate for magickers anyways.

-R
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Halaster on July 11, 2006, 04:06:56 PM
From what I've personally seen, I disagree with the person who sent in the request that Sanvean then posted.  I have seen an adequate amount of "fear", all things considered.  As people have stated, showing fear gets you in trouble.  People fear the templarate more than the mages, so they keep their outward visible fear in check.

As staff, we see more than just what they say and emote - we see their thinks and feels.  And like I said, I'm satisfied overall with where things have been (there are always exceptions, but I'm talking trends).
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Bebop on July 11, 2006, 04:10:55 PM
You don't have to gasp in fear etc but I think what the IMMs are trying to say is that your character would at the very least not be comfortable with magickers.   Even if  a magicker is fighting for your side they are still doing things like creating pools of water and balls of light.  Holy Shit!  That'll give you nightmares - if they can do that who knows what they can do to you if they get you confused with the enemy or maybe if you look at them wrong.

Shy away from them, when you see a magicker RP going a distance away from them to sit, drinking their water with fear everytime.  Refusing any kind of magicker assistance unless you are at the throws of death.  I think it basically comes down to:

Don't be casual about it.

And if your character is becoming accustom to magickers due to the HRPT, RP it out.  Express your confusion that these monsters can actually be human in intricate thinks etc.  My last magicker grew up in Allanak and -she- was still afraid of some other magickers just because of what she had been taught growing up.

Also I would suggest to the magickers to separate themselves if they intend on just practicing their spells.  Unless you are doing something to assist the soldiers go off on your own to practice - make it private, let's leave some of they mystique to magick yes?
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Jakahri on July 11, 2006, 04:14:17 PM
Quote from: "moab"Be the change you want to see.

You want people to fear magick?  Make them fear magick.

Sorry, this doesn't always work. A recent character I ran was a highly powerful mage. No matter what he did, or who he killed, he was never feared by anyone except for a few well played desert elves. Everyone else seemed oblivious to the fact that he could destroy half of a city if he felt like it. I attempted to display my true potential, though only a handful of players actually roleplayed what I would consider true fear.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 11, 2006, 04:17:02 PM
From the Allanaki camp side:

Having played a magick fearing character I can definitely sympathize with the OP Sanvean posted though I didn't write in.  It isn't that there aren't magicker fearing character on both sides of the war but that they sometimes appear to be the exception.  Particularly people who -visibly- fear and distrust magick, as far as intricate thinks go only the IMMs would know.  

To me it often seems like people play their PCs as being so logical that they walk themselves into a trap.  Joe is a magicker, I fear Joe.  Templar Bob uses Joe though so I must put up with Joe.  Joe casts useful spells that help me and has saved my life, maybe Joe isn't so bad after all.  Talking with Joe in a bar he's really well played and nice and maybe he's ok after all.  To me it often seems like people deal with this situation then it begins to slowly bleed into all other magicker reactions (I'm guilty of this too from time to time).  I've played a PC a lot like Joe the magicker as well and personally thought it was sometimes too easy to become accepted but I also like to think I played Joe the mage really well  :P

A few tips to get more tension with mages:

1)  This is number one for a reason, partly because I hope new templars see this.  Nakki templars can be mage haters, mage lovers but most end up inbetween.  The sad part is most seem to take a soft approach to mages and the commoners around them do likewise.  Mages are your slaves, mages don't need to be coddled.  Make repeated examples of them.  Make up rules they need to follow to -shield- the commoners from their vile magicks.  In large part the burden is on PC templars to set the tone for how all mages will be treated.  You don't have to be a mage hater to tell PC mages to cast out of sight, to not do magicks right infront of mundanes and to be subservient.  Punish mages who talk back to commoners, then punish commoners who are repeatedly antagonizing mages if they're a problem.

2)  To all people:  Be superstitious.  Sure that mage X might have badass spells that can make you indestructible.  DENY THEM.  Unless absolutely ordered to deny spells even if it makes you weaker, worry about how it will affect your soul or whatever.  Then when you get the magick off of you make a sacrifice to the Highlord to cleanse you of the foul magicks.

3)  DISTRUST MAGES.  Never trust a magick wielding slave of the templarate.  Just build it into your character, never trust a mage.  No matter how much they sweet talk your PC or prove themselves useful just imagine them like the filthy beings they are trying to lull you into a false sense of security to lay their curses on your family for generation.  Treat them as second class citizens, stay your distance and ignore them.  This becomes much easier if the people in charge (PC leaders, templars and nobles) set the example.

4)  Don't compliment the damn mages.  They aren't your friends, they're your servants.  This goes into the whole playing too logical thing.  Don't treat mages as equals under any circumstances.  It may be tough when you see them doing very useful things but form your PCs thoughts to consider those very useful things the mages duty, what they do for the Highlord to deserve life.  Glass ceilings are a good thing, then it actually makes it an accomplishment if a solitary mage breaks through and can earn peoples trust.  But even that should be rare (or nonexistant) and a case by case basis.

I'm not trying to complain.  I have vastly enjoyed all time I've spent in the Allanaki camps and think all the current leader PCs (living and dead) have done great jobs.  These are some ideas though to get Allanak out of the funk of mage loving I see them getting into.  It isn't a bad thing for mages to be treated better, but it sure is a different thing.  And if it continues I feel that Allanak and its leaders may logically have IC problems on their hands.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Anonymous kank with wings on July 11, 2006, 04:21:18 PM
I think someone had a valid point about magick earlier when they jokingly mentioned virgins and sacrifice. Magick its isn't innately very dark. Alright, I don't know about the nilazi or perhaps the drov, but otherwise.

Yes, it's powerful, but it doesn't scream of evil the way summoning horrid demons to effect the magicks does - and seeing people get pulled down into flaming chasms by terrible claws before the chasms snap shut does - and spells that leave nothing but bloody ruins and entrails of former friends does - and victims being snatched away yet others still being able to hear their torment and death cries does. To me, the palable evil would create the fear.

Secondly, why should magickers be expected to create the fear? Many of them WERE commoners before they discovered their powers. Should the discovery that they are in tune with an element suddenly turn them into greedy, heartless monsters? No.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Halaster on July 11, 2006, 04:23:09 PM
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"

Secondly, why should magickers be expected to create the fear? Many of them WERE commoners before they discovered their powers. Should the discovery that they are in tune with an element suddenly turn them into greedy, heartless monsters? No.

An excellent point to keep in mind.  The mages don't necessarily want to be shunned, so they're trying to make you like them, in general.  Or at least not hate them.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Anonymous on July 11, 2006, 04:24:04 PM
Quote from: "Bebop"Unless you are doing something to assist the soldiers go off on your own to practice - make it private, let's leave some of they mystique to magick yes?

The magickers are making things more private than you may realize.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 11, 2006, 04:24:13 PM
Quote from: "Bebop"Don't be casual about it.

And I would say, don't confuse business-like or militarily-disciplined behavior with casualness. The imms are the only ones who know what may be going on inside each character, and Halaster has just said that he's satisfied. I think fewer assumptions about characters' interior lives by the players of other characters would be a really good thing.

Also, about the length of time it should take to get acclimated to the presence of magickers and what they do. Humans acclimate quickly to all kinds of weird, crazy stuff on Earth. Why would they be any different on Zalanthas? Commoner does not equal dumb or psychologically inept, and superstitions and misinformation can be quickly overcome in such a hugely stressful situation as this war.

That being said, it just occurred to me that it would be really cool if, when characters return to the city post-war, we saw some with PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) about magickers.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Dalmeth on July 11, 2006, 04:28:31 PM
I'd really like to know how the magickers are using their powers.  Are they throwing out an emote and then casting, or are they making it into a long, drawn out, ritualistic sort of thing?  As it stands, an emote and a cast does not make magick seem very magickal.  It looks more like someone flexing their arm.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Marauder Moe on July 11, 2006, 04:30:26 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"That being said, it just occurred to me that it would be really cool if, when characters return to the city post-war, we saw some with PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) about magickers.
Neat idea.  Or, word about how much magick was thrown around got back to the city.  Veterans might be considered cursed and such.


Something else people should consider is that people who play gemmed magickers know what they were signing up for: discrimination, mistrust, fear, hatred.  While their characters may try to gain acceptance, the players expect such things and enjoy the conflict surrounding their situation.  Don't assume you're doing a magick's player a favor by being friendly.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Anonymous on July 11, 2006, 04:38:49 PM
Quote from: "Dalmeth"I'd really like to know how the magickers are using their powers.  Are they throwing out an emote and then casting, or are they making it into a long, drawn out, ritualistic sort of thing?  As it stands, an emote and a cast does not make magick seem very magickal.  It looks more like someone flexing their arm.

Is this fair? The code doesn't implement a long drawn out ritual, it implements a short incantation that can be used quickly in battle situations.

In fact this suggestion reminds me of Back to the Future III where the scientist has this huge, clanking machine that in the end produces a couple of pieces of ice. Great fuss for small effect.

Think about how you would deal with being expected to write a novella for every single time you swing your sword and you'll have a basis of comparison.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 11, 2006, 04:40:28 PM
Quote from: "Halaster"
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"

Secondly, why should magickers be expected to create the fear? Many of them WERE commoners before they discovered their powers. Should the discovery that they are in tune with an element suddenly turn them into greedy, heartless monsters? No.

An excellent point to keep in mind.  The mages don't necessarily want to be shunned, so they're trying to make you like them, in general.  Or at least not hate them.

And it's very easy to play your PCs so logically that they soon accept Joe the magicker because he's a really nice guy.  That mage is playing fine.  The commoner who accepts the mage easily, though, appears to be playing the exception.  They're being nice to the mages and losing all sense of fear and distrust.  This is just like if an elf was nice to you, would you then trust him and become best buddies?  Probably not, you'd probably think he was trying to screw you in some ways.  More people need to superstitiously worry more about what that mage is going to sacrifice them to when he gets them to trust him then about hurting Joe the gemmers feelings.

And when I say "need to" I mean need to promote fear and distrust for it to remain a core part of gemmed/mundane interactions in Allanak.  If everyone comes back from the war trusting mages and praising them as heroes well, mages could then become trusted heroes of the city.  And I'm not sure if I want to see that, though it might be interesting.

Edit to add:
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"Something else people should consider is that people who play gemmed magickers know what they were signing up for: discrimination, mistrust, fear, hatred.  While their characters may try to gain acceptance, the players expect such things and enjoy the conflict surrinding their situation.  Don't assume you're doing a magick's player a favor by being friendly.

Moe makes an awesome point here.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Ava on July 11, 2006, 05:19:24 PM
A ribbon-festooned mekillot has arrived from the north.
A ribbon-festooned mekillot pinches your neck, wounding you.
A ribbon-festooned mekillot dodges your slashes.
A ribbon-festooned mekillot dodges your slashes.
A ribbon-festooned mekillot pierces your head very hard--you see stars!
Magickal currents begin to swirl around the petite, pixie-toed girl.
Calling fire from the sky, the petite, pixie-toed girl blows the ribbon-festooned mekillot to kingdom come.
A small portion of juicy mekillot steak crumples to the ground.
> say (growling viciously) You damned wiggler freak. Whaddya do that for?

As a 'nakki player, I find it hard to not like gemmers (partly for OOC reasons: they're usually well played) and even harder to want to diss them (for IC reasons: they're hellabuff).
- They're on average no harder to get along with than any normal commoner.
- They're often kempt, wealthy, and well-connected, and my PC kinda digs such.
- They've fought alongside me, and never ever harmed me.
- They're under the thumb of the templarate.
- They're dangerous.
- They're on my side.

That doesn't mean my PC is comfortable with them, but that it's hard for me to maintain a dislike that goes beyond healthy fear.
Quote from: "SpyGuy"If everyone comes back from the war trusting mages and praising them as heroes well, mages could then become trusted heroes of the city.  And I'm not sure if I want to see that, though it might be interesting.
I don't think it would be unreasonable for the 'nakki HRPT veterans to have a little different perspective on gemmers down the line, perhaps to the point that non-veterans think they're a bit daft.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jcarter on July 11, 2006, 05:51:40 PM
In my opinion, people should start becoming more calloused to magickers. At least on the Allanaki side. Magickers are mostly feared because there's not much known about them. They're the unknown, nobody knows the limits of their powers, whether they can only create a glass of water or drown an entire citystate in an ocean isn't something that really should be intuitively known. In the camp, people are kept separate, yet it's certainly possible that the people mingle. Some of the echoes in the camp support this notion as well.

This isn't really a black or white issue though. You might be okay with one magicker because they're laid back and don't go doing crazy stuff, while scared shitless of another one because they can burn villages with a snap of their finger. Individual personalities and temperments should be a factor in whether or not to be scared of some of the gemmers.

Anyone who has been in the Allanaki camp for more than a day should be able to see how much it pays off to at least pretend to be cool with a magicker.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Bebop on July 11, 2006, 05:53:40 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
Quote from: "Bebop"Don't be casual about it.

And I would say, don't confuse business-like or militarily-disciplined behavior with casualness. The imms are the only ones who know what may be going on inside each character, and Halaster has just said that he's satisfied. I think fewer assumptions about characters' interior lives by the players of other characters would be a really good thing.

I am giving my suggestions generally based on the player complaint that people are acting unafraid of magickers.  Also on the complaint that magickers are practicing every where and making things so blatant.  My character is not currently involved with the front lines so I can't say for sure what is going on there.  But those where my suggestions based on what I'm hearing.

I think there's a difference between people getting used to thing in RL like people getting horns filed into their skulls and say - hundreds of years worth of fear and tales based on a deeply felt almost innate fear to beings that have the way to possibly look at you and kill you in gruesome ways if the so desire for all most people know.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 11, 2006, 06:04:58 PM
QuoteNow take Episode I, II and III. It is like, everybody and his dog is jedi or at least can use force somehow somewhere. And jedi is not mysterious anymore they are just getting to be "an action accessory" which you enjoy watching while having some popcorn and soda.


And even when they were that common you very very -rarely- saw any single "mundane" character taking one on solo.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Dalmeth on July 11, 2006, 06:06:29 PM
Quote from: "Anonymous"Is this fair? The code doesn't implement a long drawn out ritual, it implements a short incantation that can be used quickly in battle situations.

In fact this suggestion reminds me of Back to the Future III where the scientist has this huge, clanking machine that in the end produces a couple of pieces of ice. Great fuss for small effect.

Think about how you would deal with being expected to write a novella for every single time you swing your sword and you'll have a basis of comparison.

I referring to things like making food and getting water, or even making lightning storms.

Have the voices of the magickers murmuring in the wind as the lightning storms strike.  Make it creepy!

Of course, the imms have to help, but what's an HRPT without imm support?
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 11, 2006, 06:07:34 PM
QuoteAs a 'nakki player, I find it hard to not like gemmers (partly for OOC reasons: they're usually well played) and even harder to want to diss them (for IC reasons: they're hellabuff).
- They're on average no harder to get along with than any normal commoner.
- They're often kempt, wealthy, and well-connected, and my PC kinda digs such.
- They've fought alongside me, and never ever harmed me.
- They're under the thumb of the templarate.
- They're dangerous.
- They're on their own side.


Let me make an edit to make this more accurate considering that most of the intelligent beings in the known world do not trust magickers.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 11, 2006, 06:14:21 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"
QuoteAs a 'nakki player, I find it hard to not like gemmers (partly for OOC reasons: they're usually well played) and even harder to want to diss them (for IC reasons: they're hellabuff).
- They're on average no harder to get along with than any normal commoner.
- They're often kempt, wealthy, and well-connected, and my PC kinda digs such.
- They've fought alongside me, and never ever harmed me.
- They're under the thumb of the templarate.
- They're dangerous.
- They're on their own side.


Let me make an edit to make this more accurate considering that most of the intelligent beings in the known world do not trust magickers.

Exactly.  One issue is there is a lot of trust going around from mundanes to magickers.  Sure, they really might be loyal.  OOCly you may see all the signs that working with them is really beneficial and overall good for your PC.  But to properly RP the fear, dislike and distrust of magickers you need to throw out any element of being logical about the issue.  Never trust a mage no matter what because to many commoners they would not be considered human, they aren't people.  They're creatures caged to be used by the Highlord and kept separate because they're dangerous, deadly and can never be trusted.

But that's just one interpretation, the one I try to use to keep myself from falling into the "Magickers are nice and I see them all the time so my character is going to like them" trap.  Because I feel people who do end up liking or openly accepting magickers, even among those who are regularly exposed to them, will always be the exception.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 11, 2006, 06:16:44 PM
QuoteBut that's just one interpretation, the one I try to use to keep myself from falling into the "Magickers are nice and I see them all the time so my character is going to like them" trap. Because I feel people who do end up liking or openly accepting magickers, even among those who are regularly exposed to them, will always be the exception.

Yep. It seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 11, 2006, 06:23:03 PM
Well, all of that is just a Nakki problem, then. We're definitely not at risk of deciding to like and hang out with magickers in Tuluk. Yet another reason why Tuluk is better  :P
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Pantoufle on July 11, 2006, 06:26:13 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"It seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.

Of course they are.  They want to interact because this is a MULTI-USER game.  Can you blame them?  The purpose of fear and hate is not to segregate the playerbase from interacting with one another in any way shape or form, it's to help define one's role and actually ENCOURAGE (the right kind of) interaction.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 11, 2006, 06:29:13 PM
Quote from: "Pantoufle"
Quote from: "jhunter"It seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.

Of course they are.  They want to interact because this is a MULTI-USER game.  Can you blame them?  The purpose of fear and hate is not to segregate the playerbase from interacting with one another in any way shape or form, it's to help define one's role and actually ENCOURAGE (the right kind of) interaction.

I don't recall having said anything about segregating them. My point is that you can remain IC and still have interaction. I don't give a flying fuck what their reason is for doing it, it doesn't make it right.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Pantoufle on July 11, 2006, 06:45:51 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"I don't give a flying fuck what their reason is for doing it, it doesn't make it right.

Thank you for taking the time to respond politely.

By the same logic you've used, a player in a remote village who encounters another PC should ignore them (or, at the very least, not make direct efforts to interact with them) since that other person is but one individual amongst a crowd of virtual people.  If we apply the same logic you are forcefeeding us, we'd likely all sit in taverns, ignore one another, and scarcely (if at all) interact.  

I'm not excusing the actions of players who bypass their character concept or IC realities just for the sake of interaction, but your original statement about people looking for reasons to interact as a bad thing is the kind of elitist remark which leads to stagnation and a lack of plotlines.  To use the aforementioned scenario again, if I am sitting in a tavern in Cenyr and in walks a PC, you're damn right I'm going to LOOK FOR reasons to interact with that person!  Even if they're sitting on the other side of the room from me.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 11, 2006, 06:55:22 PM
Did you actually read what I posted or just the last sentence?


I said:

QuoteI don't recall having said anything about segregating them. My point is that you can remain IC and still have interaction.

Also, my original statement was not:

Quoteabout people looking for reasons to interact as a bad thing

What it was, in reality:

QuoteIt seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.

Nowhere, in -any- of my posts did I say -anything- about the -interaction- in and of itself. Please, I'm really not trying to be rude to you Pantoufle, but read what I actually said and then read over your responses. You seem to be getting an attitude about something that I -never- said.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Pantoufle on July 11, 2006, 07:08:49 PM
Fine, point taken.  We likely agree more than we disagree on the subject but our different choice in wording leads to miscommunication.  But try to understand, it's hard not to react when one considers the following.

Quote from: "jhunter"Please, I'm really not trying to be rude

Quote from: "jhunter"I don't give a flying fuck

Anyway, moving forward.  The root of this entire discussion centers around the difficulty of maintaining fear in an increased surrounding of magick.  When insisting we RP out our fears more, one must always consider the age old adage: You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2006, 07:33:17 PM
Somebody noted that the current state of things in the Allanaki camp might lead magickers to become heroes of Allanak.

I ask, so? I'm not saying that I hope this happens, but I am saying that if it does, I won't be disappointed. Sure, there's hundreds of years of fear and superstition, and sure, Allanak thrives on this, but every culture gradually ends up accepting the outcasts. Either that or it kicks them out.

Rappers are the biggest selling music stars in America. Skateboarders have a bleeding channel on TV. Goths have highly patronized stores called 'Hot Topic'.

I'm just saying, it wouldn't be outside the realms of IC believability for mages to become more 'acceptable' in Allanak. On the other hand, I could most definately see Tuluk creating or further using a special group of killers to hunt and kill all mages, particularly Allanaki mages, after this War is over.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Ghost on July 11, 2006, 07:37:57 PM
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Somebody noted that the current state of things in the Allanaki camp might lead magickers to become heroes of Allanak.


Magickers' being the heroes of a battle is actually quite acceptable.  Each one has much more powerful than a mundane soldier right, and each one can crush enemies and enemy moral and switch the balance of the tides.  So what is wrong with hearing something like "Allanak has won because of the mages!!!" I would not picture it in any other way already.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Morrolan on July 11, 2006, 07:48:09 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
Quote from: "Bebop"That being said, it just occurred to me that it would be really cool if, when characters return to the city post-war, we saw some with PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) about magickers.

Agreed.  When this all shakes out in Allanak, and the Mages are told to go back to their quarter with a pat on the back, or blamed for the loss of the war, or whatever, THEN we will see if anything has changed.

Anyone interested in such things can look up the book Ceremony by Leslie Mormon Silko.  It's about a Native American who comes home from WWII a war hero, and is suddenly "just an Indian" again.

We'll see what happens...

Morrolan
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Dre on July 11, 2006, 07:49:33 PM
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"On the other hand, I could most definately see Tuluk creating or further using a special group of killers to hunt and kill all mages, particularly Allanaki mages, after this War is over.

**Crosses his fingers and giggles like a school girl** :twisted:

Unfortunately to do it properly it would have to be ICly sponsored by a templar and done with the OOC approval and support of an imm.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 11, 2006, 07:51:58 PM
Quote from: "Dre"
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"On the other hand, I could most definately see Tuluk creating or further using a special group of killers to hunt and kill all mages, particularly Allanaki mages, after this War is over.

**Crosses his fingers and giggles like a school girl** :twisted:

Unfortunately to do it properly it would have to be ICly sponsored by a templar and done with the OOC approval and support of an imm.

And hopefully it wouldn't turn into this unrealistic scramble of sword-toting jackasses scrambling to join. Their motto should be:

The few, the psychotic, The Magehunters.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: cyberpatrol_735 on July 11, 2006, 08:05:07 PM
To those in the 'nakki camp, good job.

I play/played, won't say which a magicker, and people were afraid of me consistantly.. then again, I'm just a scary fuck, but.. get my point?

I'm with halaster on this one.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Kank who walks alone on July 11, 2006, 08:31:57 PM
Personally? And this is just me....

While I'd really hate to see the Allanaki forces lose, I think a lot of the issue is the cooperation.

The reason that I've always feared the gemmed hoarde is because they are unpredictable, uncontrolled, and they can do things that I have absolutely no defenses against. In a world where just about anyone will stab you in the back to get some bread, that's a terrifying concept.

Furthermore, familiarity does breed contempt. Not knowing what a witch can or can't do is a big part of it. "I need your true name to assist you." "Never! You'll capture me into a glass bottle for seven eternities!" When you see what they do every day, and most of it isn't harmful, but helpful, it's hard to be really afraid of them anymore. There are only so many times you can yell "aaaaaah!" and act frightened of the same thing.

An unforeseen result of the HRPT war has been that people are... well... cooperating. To the exclusion of intrigue in a lot of cases. This is apparent on the mundane side, too. People are too worried about who is going to win the war to consider intrigue against their fellow man or the overall forces. The mages know, if the Tuluki's win, they're going to be extinct - or practically so when you consider what life is like if both citystates are off limits.

So there's no real reason to fear them unless you're in the enemy army (whichever that might be). And even then, you have to assume that the others are like the ones you know. If the gemmed in the forces had more apparent personal agendas instead of seeming like they're the well kept pets of the templarate and/or nobility who are just as eager to please and obey as the average swordsman pulled into the ranks, there would be much less reason to appreciate them.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 11, 2006, 08:34:40 PM
QuoteFurthermore, familiarity does breed contempt. Not knowing what a witch can or can't do is a big part of it. "I need your true name to assist you." "Never! You'll capture me into a glass bottle for seven eternities!"

I still disagree with the average Joe Commoner knowing that a "true name" is anything of importance to a magicker.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 11, 2006, 08:35:28 PM
War breeds strange bedfellows.

Or something like that.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 11, 2006, 08:50:07 PM
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Somebody noted that the current state of things in the Allanaki camp might lead magickers to become heroes of Allanak.

I ask, so? I'm not saying that I hope this happens, but I am saying that if it does, I won't be disappointed. Sure, there's hundreds of years of fear and superstition, and sure, Allanak thrives on this, but every culture gradually ends up accepting the outcasts. Either that or it kicks them out.

That was a point I made and I agree with you mostly.  It very well might happen and if Allanak wins because of mages, and everyone from camp comes back with an attitude of mage acceptance and that infects a new generation of PCs then the game world very well may need to change because of that.  The game world changing because of PC actions is not a bad thing.

You seem to be attacking my post like I said it was some horrible thing for magicker relations to change, I didn't.  I still don't think I'd like to see it change though.  The vast majority of my post was to give people, leaders and grunts alike, ideas for how to use mages without them becoming heroes.

In the end I'll say this, to call a mage a hero is not only putting them on an equal basis but it also praises that individual.  To call the mages of the war heroes implies that all gemmed mages have equal use and validity in Allanaki society.  The traditional view of mages in Allanak, as I see it, is that to the templarate they're useful tools to be controlled, to most nobles they're a fearful unknown and to commoners they're unknown, terrifying and more likely to curse you than help you.  If that traditional view is changing then more power to it.

This discussion is good.  I really hope people on the frontlines don't take this as severe criticism though, most people I've seen have interacted well and done a great job.  But discrimination is part of what makes Arm feel real and gritty, my posts have merely been to try to promote more discrimination or ways to discriminate that reflect the typical views of Allanak.  Mages coming back as heroes will change things, a lot.  But that's certainly not a given and I'm interested to see what exactly happens in the end.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2006, 08:59:07 PM
Quote from: "Kank who walks alone"If the gemmed in the forces had more apparent personal agendas instead of seeming like they're the well kept pets of the templarate and/or nobility who are just as eager to please and obey as the average swordsman pulled into the ranks, there would be much less reason to appreciate them.
I'll agree with that, but I'd also add that it is highly likely that most of them are eager to please and obey. They are citizens just like you and I, from an OOC viewpoint.

Spyguy, I was in no way attacking your points. I was using that statement as a crux for my post. I didn't misread your contribution to the thread. :)
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jstorrie on July 11, 2006, 09:09:21 PM
Tulukis - especially many of those who volunteered to join the front lines - are often fanatical about Muk Utep. When you're standing right next to a famed, powerful Faithful Lord or Lady, it's not unreasonable to summon up a little courage and have faith that they'll protect you.

Most of the Tuluki PCs I have seen are playing appropriately around magic: scared silly of magick when templars aren't around, biting the bullet and putting their faith in friend templars when they are. There have been a few exceptions but I don't think it's quite as bad as some may think: many may just be putting on a brave face while they would still freeze up when actually presented with a magickal threat. That said, any Allanaki magicker who shows vulnerability near a teeming mass of Tuluki troops should expect to get shanked. At least one of the dozens will grit his teeth and charge, it's just a matter of odds, and the mob mentality is a great source of temporary courage. Further, anyone should expect that in a situation like this the Tuluki templarate would turn around and downplay the magicker threat in order to keep their troops from fleeing from the face of every battle.

I can't speak for the Allanaki side as I haven't observed them.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Boggis on July 11, 2006, 09:18:04 PM
Veterans of this war could conceivably come back with an even greater fear of magick than they had prior to the war. Most people in Allanak never see magick during their day-to-day life and probably never will. Gemmers are there wandering around the city but they're on a leash and you don't see any public displays from them generally. In Tuluk virtually everybody never sees magick ever. Sure they hate and despise it but it's not in their face and most citizens will go through their lives without ever seeing any and be delighted to do so. For people in both city-states magick is the realm of superstition and rumour which, while scary, won't actually harm you. Possibly anyway. Soldiers on both sides, however, get to see magick right up in their face, get to see -precisely- how bad it can be. Nakki soldiers get to see the beneficial side sure but they also get to see what happens when nice Liv the Viv who healed up Malik's leg wound neat as you like the other day suddenly shows the other side to their power and draws down some horrible magicks on people. In my opinion, the rumour that Uncle Amos' house burned down because he looked at a Krathi funny isn't quite as scary as actually seeing a Krathi set ten men on fire with a flick of his wrist.

This doesn't mean that soldiers on both sides can't push through this fear. Many humans can and will adapt to terrifying situations and shut down their fear to an extent to get themselves through it. In WWI men went over the top and advanced on machine gun emplacements over and over again for years. It had to be terrifying every time but they did it despite it appearing insane to us now. Whether it was a belief in their cause, a desire to not let down their comrades, a fear of what punishment lay behind them if they did not advance or whatever they managed it. I can see soldiers from both city-states getting on with the job in front of them in an attempt to survive but this kind of tortuous punishment of a person's fears takes it toll psychologically and they usually end up paying for it sooner or later (especially if the war continues for any length of time). Perhaps when back home in Tuluk even the thought of magick could bring back all the terrible magicks they saw inflicted upon their comrades. Or when back in Nak a gemmer sits down beside them in a tavern - they know full well that should that gemmer wish it they could incinerate half the bar in the blink of an eye. I can see quite a few jittery veterans being even more wary of magick instead of being inured against it once the hostilities are over.

This could also have an even further negative effect on mages in Nak as, if successful in the war, they may come home expecting praise or acceptance for it but in fact may suffer even more hostility, fear and suspicion because of their actions. Before they were the stories of superstition and half of them were relatively benign but now people might hear veterans mutter of the time the Rukkian opened up the earth that swallowed half a unit or the Whiran that lifted fifteen men into the sky easy as you like and let them fall back to earth and people will know that such a story is quite likely to be true. Might make the general populace even more uncomfortable being around them and make mages bitter towards the public who don't appreciate how they too bled for Nak.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2006, 09:30:22 PM
Another excellent senario.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 11, 2006, 09:31:49 PM
I was thinking the same thing while reading that post.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jstorrie on July 11, 2006, 09:37:32 PM
Something as eventful as a full on magick-fueled war will be interpreted many different ways. Soldiers who were the victims of magickal attacks may fear them more and have flashbacks, or instead having survived them, feel invincible; soldiers whose friends were killed by magickers/foreign templars (and we all know the other city's templars are just well-dressed finger-waggler witches, right?) may hate them even more; soldiers (on the Tuluki side especially) who had the good luck to only be present for failed magickal attacks may find them demystified and less threatening. Magickers may feel entitled or disenfranchised. Allanaki soldiers may look up to magickers for being heroes, resent them for stealing the glories of battle, or feel ashamed that their templars used such foul forces as tools of war.

Don't paint in too broad of strokes is all I'm saying.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 11, 2006, 09:40:08 PM
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Another excellent senario.

Totally, good points Boggis.  Hopefully this will all give those lucky few who survive the war to be called veterans some food for thought.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 11, 2006, 10:04:54 PM
I didn't read much of the replies, so forgive me if I'm repeating someone else on this.  There are a couple things involved that make 'keeping the fear' in the military camps next to impossible:

a) Templars -love- the magickers.  If there were to be -any- emotion felt towards them, I think it would be jealousy and anger, not fear.  I mean this quite literally...the mages are showered with attention, used for just about anything, and depended on for a whole lot.  One of my big gripes is how much templars use mages because of everything they can do...yes, it makes sense.  But it also means it's a rising trend for templars to give priority and more greatly appreciate a feared and hated population...but whenever it's brought up IC, it's dismissed, argued against, or scoffed at.

b) There are -so- freaking many mages right now that it's ridiculous.  You can't go anywhere in the camp or the area without seeing either a mage or the results of their power.  They're allowed to cast as they please, to go out on patrol, to do whatever...how can someone stay afraid of someone for what they can do when they see what they can do being done -everywhere-?  Thusfar, the war has been to a very large degree dependent on mages due to their number.

c) Combined with b.  The mages are pretty much responsible for very important duties that serve the armies pretty substantially.  When it's seen time and time again, you're going to stop being so skittish and start to appreciate it.

Overall...A is my biggest problem.  Before you get mad at people for not being afraid of magick because they see it all the time, get mad at people who make it such a common occurrence that role-playing fear of it would consume all time for role-play and duties and debilitate the experience completely.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Jherlen on July 11, 2006, 10:11:42 PM
I agree with the people saying let things happen as they happen. If what the magickers are doing is making them be feared less, great! A war is the perfect kind of thing to bring about a change in perceptions of that nature.

Likewise in Tuluk, with more people seeing up front what magickers are capable of, there will probably be some changes too. Maybe some people will start to hate mages even more after seeing what happened to their entire unit of friends that got hit by Fart of Doom. Or maybe, even, a few of the Tulukis will have treasonous thoughts and wonder why such powers can't be harnessed and used for the Sun King... etc.

Anyway my point is, this is a huge event, so let's let it run its course and change the game how it will, and not restrict everyone to pre-war societal beliefs and stigmas. Plots would be served better if people reacted to things in-game rather than saying "well the docs say commoners fear magick, so I'm going to ignore whatever my PC sees to the contrary and still fear it anyway."
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 11, 2006, 10:12:29 PM
QuoteSomebody noted that the current state of things in the Allanaki camp might lead magickers to become heroes of Allanak.

I ask, so? I'm not saying that I hope this happens, but I am saying that if it does, I won't be disappointed.

What would you, a mundane commoner, do if Hitler, some other nazi, Saddam Hussein, George Bush, John Kerry, or some other person you likely dislike strongly came back from a trip with a general and was declared a national hero?
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: John on July 11, 2006, 10:17:34 PM
Quote from: "Armaddict"What would you, a mundane commoner, do if Hitler, some other nazi, Saddam Hussein, George Bush, John Kerry, or some other person you likely dislike strongly came back from a trip with a general and was declared a national hero?
If the person who declared them a hero was a Templar with the corrupt militia behind their back, I'd do nothing because who knows what those templars can do (some of my chars think that templars can read their minds). I'd feel resentment towards the magicker, and I'd fear them as all hell (because they must be powerful to be treated so kindly). And if I was powerful enough, I might plot their death.

What I wouldn't do was admire them. People who were there during the war should have different opinions on matters then those who were left behind in the cities. IMO there's no problem with the Allanaki forces starting to feel some hero worship towards the magickers who fought with them. However IMO that won't last forever for the vast majority. In fact it won't last a year. Most will go back to fearing all magickers, and what they viewed during the war will start to be viewed in different manners (in fact they might even come to fear/hate magickers more then before).

All IMO.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Anonymous kank with wings on July 11, 2006, 10:20:14 PM
Quote from: "Armaddict"There are -so- freaking many mages right now that it's ridiculous.

But really what do you expect? The entire mage population of Allanak has been press-ganged into the war, save for some NPCs. Combine this with the fact that the city only sent out a tithe of its army and it's natural that they seem to be relatively abundant.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 11, 2006, 10:20:19 PM
I'd prolly try to snipe him, ala Kennedy. But Hitler can't cast 'the shits' at me, either, or curse my family with premature baldness or limp dick.

My point wasn't that they should be treated this way or that way because of this or that. My point was that if they are, if something happened that changed their lot in life, either way, I wouldn't see it as anything other than the progression of a society.

And I don't think that Hitler the Nazi and John Kerry are in the same boat. Hitler the Nazi is worse than a Gemmer, and John Kerry substantially less frightening.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 11, 2006, 10:38:48 PM
QuoteWhat I wouldn't do was admire them. People who were there during the war should have different opinions on matters then those who were left behind in the cities. IMO there's no problem with the Allanaki forces starting to feel some hero worship towards the magickers who fought with them.

I didn't really elaborate, but you hit it on the spot, John.  What my complaint is...is that -if- it happens, it really should, in all likelihood, cause some -very- bad things to happen among the populace.  I'm not talking anything like revolt, but you would probably see a tremendous decrease in nationalism and support.  Perhaps even a decrease in 'mundane' military force due to some sentiments about working with mages or mages getting the glory.

Like I said...I think a really large part of the problem is how people are starting to say 'It's okay, that mage was nice' or 'It's okay, they helped me'.  More on this below, and it may seem like a conspiracy theory or melodramatic exaggeration...but it still bothers me.

QuoteAnd I don't think that Hitler the Nazi and John Kerry are in the same boat. Hitler the Nazi is worse than a Gemmer, and John Kerry substantially less frightening.

I wasn't comparing them to mages.  I was trying to throw out names of someone you might hate, fear, loathe, or just generally not understand.  That is what it would feel like to have a mage come back and be treated like a hero.  Only a little different with a vast impact, considering what they can do and what magick has done to people in the past.

Now...to state what really disturbs me...

Part 1:  Up until the past couple years, mages actually -were- pretty rare.  They weren't -always- around, so you actually could react the way the docs state that you should because it was not an 'all of the time' deal.  Not only that...but mages were much more -scary-.  There were just as many evil ones as good ones, and they played the role...they didn't go around to all the bars and try to buddy up with people.

Part 2: Mages complain now about people not showing fear enough, along with other players (example: the first post of this topic).  People argue and say that they all have exceptions and generally state that mages are good people too!

It seems to me that more people have started playing mages, whether of their own accord, a swathe of karma given out, a bunch of new players...whatever.  However...with that 'shift' of more mages, now it's seeping into OOC.  Now, OOC'ly, more people are showing approval of mages.  More templars/nobles are giving mages benefit and overlooking the fear and distrust they really should be feeling.  It seems to me that people are taking ooc sentiments of 'Mages are cool!' and trying to put it into the game, changing it forever.  I, personally, kind of get slumped shoulders when I see it.

My personal standpoint:

Mages are not heroes.  They are not 'okay people' who are just different.  They are freaking finger wigglers.  They are not people at all, they are witches.  They can hurt people in ways no one can imagine, whether they use it to help or not.  The average commoner (the vast majority of vnpcs, I imagine) hates them, shuns them, and does -not- see an opportunity to look past the gem to the good soul inside them.  They are a -taint-.

Magickers are not allowed to serve of their own free will.  They were allowed to live in Allanak, and in return, it is their -obligation- to do as the Highlord pleases with them.  If they don't...they face the consequences because that would make them an ungrateful little wretch to be disposed of because of how dangerous it is, and it has just showed the capacity of disobeying the Highlord's will.  They were given their own quarter not so that they could practice away from people, but so that they could be separated from the masses that would be unsettled and discontent with their presence.  It keeps the masses as satisfied as possible with the arrangement.

Mages are not heroes no matter what they do in a war.  If they call down a giant column of flame with fiery blue lightning bolts that destroys -every- enemy in range, the hero is the templar who brought them and controlled them until they did this.  The mage was a tool, that's it, just like the sword in a bynner's hand.  No credit goes to mages...inflate their ego, and there's going to be problems.

Kind of a brief overview...it goes much deeper...but all in all...the above is just some views that show why, exactly, I find this 'mages are okay' movement unsettling.

And, of course...these are my own opinions that can be vastly wrong.  Because we all know I'm not always right, heh.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: InsertCleverNameHere on July 11, 2006, 11:24:54 PM
Just to state, my PC is not involved in the HRPT, besides waiting eagerly to catch up on the latest news floating around. That said, I don't actually know how people are behaving inside the camps. But I did read this entire thread, and feel there is something I would like to add.

I find that hearing the PC's in the camps (nak) have a thicker skin where magick use is concerned is perfectly acceptable. Yeah, almost every common PC is raised and engrained with anywhere from mild fear, distrust, to complete and abject horror to magicks. And the game docs state as much, documents written to cover your day to day common interactions. But these are not normal circumstances. It's a war. That changes a lot IMO. So your normal, average, magick-fearing PC is forced to sit and eat lunch and kill people beside the weirdo's for months on end. They're becoming desensitized to it. Seems a normal progression to me. It doesn't mean these common PC's are making future plans to sit down with their good gemmed buddies and toss a few ales back upon return to the city. They are temporarily setting their differences aside to act against an even greater evil, which would be the opposing city.

Now, say Allanak wins the war? Gemmers are suddenly finding work positions they wouldn't have before, some of the soldiers are *gasp* actually mingling socially with the 'freaks'.. So? For those who don't want to see such a thing, I would put money that it would only be a temporary lull. A brief abomination that probably won't last a full IG year. It's been my observation that when unnatural bad things happen, often the elementalists find themselves immediately suspect. Looking at it from that perspective of OOC knowledge, concider it an eye of a hurricaine. Because the minute some rogue mages or sorcerer with a bent for world dominance begins acting up again, even the devoted gemmers who assisted with the war are going to be knocked back, if not to square one then pretty darn close.

Basically, my long winded opinion is summed up to this.. It's not that big of a deal if it changes things. Chances of it lasting are about as likely as every dwarf spontaniously sprouting gloriously long locks of silken hair.  :roll: Like someone else said. Let things happen as they happen. Worry about your own character, let others worry about theirs. Things will work themselves out.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: slipshod on July 12, 2006, 12:32:01 AM
For once, I actually read every post in the thread.  I would like to toss out a point I didn't see brought up yet.  FYI, I'm talking from an Allanak perspective.

The mages involved in the war are still a small fraction of the mage population in Allanak.  Even if mages fighting in the war earn some measure or respect and acceptance from the soldiers there, they are doing it on an individual basis.  They will not be representing all mages everywhere - just themselves.  If Joe soldier sees Jack Krathian murder a dozen Tuluki soldiers with a wave of his hand.. and if they are forced to share a tent and wait out a storm together... Joe soldier will not go back to Allanak and automatically feel comradery with every krathi he meets.  To the contrary, he will know that the other Krathi have the same power to kill that his "friend" did, but he will know nothing of their loyalties, morals, personality.  It would make him distrust and fear that mage even more.  Even if every mage from the war lives and returns to Allanak, their contributions will not extend beyond them as individuals.  Mages are mortal, and they will die.  Will the next generation of mage be treated as a hero because of the actions of someone a generation before?  I don't think so.  Magick gives them the potential to do great things.. to be great help or cause great harm.  How that potential is used is up to the individual mage, and the actions of one should not translate to every other mage.  In fact, those mages who are not involved in the war, might be treated with additional contempt.  "You have the power to help, yet you stay in the city and revel in your own power... living in the safety of our walls and doing nothing to contribute or earn your keep."

Mages are as unique and individual as anyone else.  The benefits of contributions will only be enjoyed by that tiny minority who actually contributed (and the even smaller number who survive to come home).  The actions of a few mages on the battlefield will not ingratiate every other mage at home, and for generations to come.
I can also see the point of view that when the power of mages is seen, the common people might question even more the appropriateness of having mages free in the city.  If it becomes known, in recent events and not just legend, that mages can cause great destruction, the common people may feel like they don't belong sitting at a table in the Barrel.  It would be difficult enough for the mage who proved himself fighting in the war, and maybe could have an argument made for earning a place in society - but it would be doubly hard then for that mage who didn't contribute, whose motivations are unknown.  

The more power mages display in the war, the more they will reinforce the very reasons they are shunned and feared in the first place.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 12, 2006, 12:34:23 AM
Quote from: "slipshod"For once, I actually read every post in the thread.  I would like to toss out a point I didn't see brought up yet.  FYI, I'm talking from an Allanak perspective.

The mages involved in the war are still a small fraction of the mage population in Allanak.  Even if mages fighting in the war earn some measure or respect and acceptance from the soldiers there, they are doing it on an individual basis.  They will not be representing all mages everywhere - just themselves.  If Joe soldier sees Jack Krathian murder a dozen Tuluki soldiers with a wave of his hand.. and if they are forced to share a tent and wait out a storm together... Joe soldier will not go back to Allanak and automatically feel comradery with every krathi he meets.  To the contrary, he will know that the other Krathi have the same power to kill that his "friend" did, but he will know nothing of their loyalties, morals, personality.  It would make him distrust and fear that mage even more.  Even if every mage from the war lives and returns to Allanak, their contributions will not extend beyond them as individuals.  Mages are mortal, and they will die.  Will the next generation of mage be treated as a hero because of the actions of someone a generation before?  I don't think so.  Magick gives them the potential to do great things.. to be great help or cause great harm.  How that potential is used is up to the individual mage, and the actions of one should not translate to every other mage.  In fact, those mages who are not involved in the war, might be treated with additional contempt.  "You have the power to help, yet you stay in the city and revel in your own power... living in the safety of our walls and doing nothing to contribute or earn your keep."

Mages are as unique and individual as anyone else.  The benefits of contributions will only be enjoyed by that tiny minority who actually contributed (and the even smaller number who survive to come home).  The actions of a few mages on the battlefield will not ingratiate every other mage at home, and for generations to come.
I can also see the point of view that when the power of mages is seen, the common people might question even more the appropriateness of having mages free in the city.  If it becomes known, in recent events and not just legend, that mages can cause great destruction, the common people may feel like they don't belong sitting at a table in the Barrel.  It would be difficult enough for the mage who proved himself fighting int he war, and maybe could have an argument made for earning a place in society - but it would be doubly hard then for that mage who didn't contribute, whose motivations are unknown.  

The more power mages display in the war, the more they will reinforce the very reasons they are shunned and feared in the first place.  Sorry if this was rambling and disjointed.  Digest.

However, the hatred Tulukis have for ALL mages stemmed from the mages who destroyed their home. If all mages were treated as individuals, then the stigma of being a mage wouldn't really exist.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: slipshod on July 12, 2006, 12:37:16 AM
The stigma exists for all of them.  Some exceptions can rise above it, but they would not elevate every other mage in the world along with them.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 12, 2006, 12:38:57 AM
No, but it could. It really could go either way, or just stay the same.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: slipshod on July 12, 2006, 12:49:42 AM
Could it?  I really don't think so.  The majority of the world's population is not out there in the Allanak camp, or having mages earn their trust and acceptance.  They are back in the cities, maybe hearing stories about the destructive force of magick.  Is that going to make mages MORE acceptable?

"Hey stranger.  You could blow up this entire tavern with a thought.  Come on in and get drunk with us."

Think about if instead of mages, Allanak was using "trained" tembos.  Viscious deadly beasts who can wreak great havoc.  Knowing how dangerous they are, even if they are effective in war, isn't going to make people want to take them as pets after the war.  It will make people more aware of how volatile their presence is.
Will people think, "There's one of those nasty monsters the Templarate used to slaughter the enemy.  Can I stick my hand in the cage to pet it?" ?   more likely: "There's one of those deadly monsters.  I sure hope the Templarate isn't saving money by buying cheap cages.  Keep it locked up and away from me."
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Delirium on July 12, 2006, 01:07:54 AM
To play devil's advocate.. some might secretly wonder if they could learn to control their own pet tembo.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 12, 2006, 01:09:36 AM
Quote from: "slipshod"Could it?  I really don't think so.  The majority of the world's population is not out there in the Allanak camp, or having mages earn their trust and acceptance.  They are back in the cities, maybe hearing stories about the destructive force of magick.  Is that going to make mages MORE acceptable?

"Hey stranger.  You could blow up this entire tavern with a thought.  Come on in and get drunk with us."

Think about if instead of mages, Allanak was using "trained" tembos.  Viscious deadly beasts who can wreak great havoc.  Knowing how dangerous they are, even if they are effective in war, isn't going to make people want to take them as pets after the war.  It will make people more aware of how volatile their presence is.
Will people think, "There's one of those nasty monsters the Templarate used to slaughter the enemy.  Can I stick my hand in the cage to pet it?" ?   more likely: "There's one of those deadly monsters.  I sure hope the Templarate isn't saving money by buying cheap cages.  Keep it locked up and away from me."

Or, conversely, it would show that tembo's could in fact be trained and made as pets.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 12, 2006, 01:22:33 AM
Adding, Tembos and Magickers can't really be compared. Tembo don't have a human thought process, and Magickers do. I highly find it unlikely that the two are put on the same level by anybody in terms of intellect.

That spot is reserved for muls.

Still, I can understand your thought process and it bears high merit.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 12, 2006, 01:23:02 AM
People may embrace the fear aspect, I hope more do.  But the attitude on the frontline is currently, as Delirium points out, concentrating on the usefulness of mages.  And it's become common and accepted practice to use mages for benefit now.  If that attitude carried over into city life, if mage X was called in by groups of hunters or even just militia on patrols to cast defensive spells on them, then it would signal a significant shift.  Mages would transform from feared outcastes into useful commodities if people coming back from the front began to consider them by and large trustworthy.

So a few things I feel deserve repeating:  

Mages are untrustworthy.  Even those nice friendly mages may have hidden agendas with powers unknown to normal mortals.  I feel this should be common superstition among mundanes and in all honesty MANY mage players are deep characters.  Just because you see a mage sitting in silks sipping an ale doesn't mean she isn't an evil backstabbing baby sacrificer.

Many gemmed PCs will actively strive for acceptance.  They weren't always mages and some downright hate what they are.  It's really the mundane's burden to provide the discrimination.  Mages can help this by being scary from time to time.

But most of all I feel it's the place of leader PCs, particularly the templarate, to set the tone for gemmed/commoner interaction.  I would personally like to see mages more restricted, forced to be subservient rather than treated like honored employees.  Templars wield great power, gemmed mages accept the responsibilities of their role because Allanak is the only place they can live openly.  The more slack the people in charge cut gemmed mages the more they will ICly take in terms of wealth, influence and freedoms.  The templarate, however, has the power to dictate the nature of this relationship.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: spawnloser on July 12, 2006, 01:31:51 AM
Quote from: "Cegar"However, the hatred Tulukis have for ALL mages stemmed from the mages who destroyed their home.
Correction, because magick destroyed half of their home.

Take this as you will.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 12, 2006, 01:42:59 AM
Quote from: "SpyGuy"People may embrace the fear aspect, I hope more do.  But the attitude on the frontline is currently, as Delirium points out, concentrating on the usefulness of mages.  And it's become common and accepted practice to use mages for benefit now.  If that attitude carried over into city life, if mage X was called in by groups of hunters or even just militia on patrols to cast defensive spells on them, then it would signal a significant shift.  Mages would transform from feared outcastes into useful commodities if people coming back from the front began to consider them by and large trustworthy.

So a few things I feel deserve repeating:  

Mages are untrustworthy.  Even those nice friendly mages may have hidden agendas with powers unknown to normal mortals.  I feel this should be common superstition among mundanes and in all honesty MANY mage players are deep characters.  Just because you see a mage sitting in silks sipping an ale doesn't mean she isn't an evil backstabbing baby sacrificer.

Many gemmed PCs will actively strive for acceptance.  They weren't always mages and some downright hate what they are.  It's really the mundane's burden to provide the discrimination.  Mages can help this by being scary from time to time.

But most of all I feel it's the place of leader PCs, particularly the templarate, to set the tone for gemmed/commoner interaction.  I would personally like to see mages more restricted, forced to be subservient rather than treated like honored employees.  Templars wield great power, gemmed mages accept the responsibilities of their role because Allanak is the only place they can live openly.  The more slack the people in charge cut gemmed mages the more they will ICly take in terms of wealth, influence and freedoms.  The templarate, however, has the power to dictate the nature of this relationship.

If mages are going to be seen as scary by those who see them all the time, then they should do scary things. When is the last time a gemmed mage did something truly scary? Not any of my characters can remember. If there's going to be fear when people constantly see them, then that doesn't make sense if all that the magickers do is GOOD for them. There ceases to be a tangible fear when they make your food, heal your wounds, and light the darkness.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 12, 2006, 02:08:40 AM
Quote from: "Cegar"If mages are going to be seen as scary by those who see them all the time, then they should do scary things. When is the last time a gemmed mage did something truly scary? Not any of my characters can remember. If there's going to be fear when people constantly see them, then that doesn't make sense if all that the magickers do is GOOD for them. There ceases to be a tangible fear when they make your food, heal your wounds, and light the darkness.

I strongly disagree.  Your character doesn't have to be rational, in fact most Zalanthians wouldn't be imo.  The magicks the gemmed show you are the ones they want you to see.  It's what goes on when the mages are alone or in their disturbing and strange temples that is the stuff of superstition.  BE SUPERSTITIOUS.  Here's a helpful link: http://www.armageddon.org/general/superstitions.html.  Just because you might OOCly know what a certain class can or can't do, just because your character has just experienced the benign aspects of a mage class does not in any way stop you from still fearing and distrusting them.  Hell, have your character get a stomach cramp after eating magicker food and blame it on a curse.  Have your PC afraid of approaching Vivaduan waters too closely because you think they'll try to pull you in.  BE CREATIVE.  Sometimes you have to actively look for ways to distrust mages, but in my opinion it's VERY IC to actively look for ways to distrust mages.

In addition, perhaps some mages should be scarier.  I would love to see small cuddly animals sold as componentry  :twisted:   But then again mages do plenty of very scary stuff, your PC is just currently not on the wrong end of it I suspect.  Many gemmed mages will try to play down their scary aspects in public, however, because it can often get them into trouble with the templarate.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 12, 2006, 02:12:13 AM
No, but it is hard to have irrational fear when all they do around you is good.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 12, 2006, 02:19:30 AM
Quote from: "Cegar"No, but it is hard to have irrational fear when all they do around you is good.

It is hard, yes.  There is certainly difficulty there.  It's very hard to have rational fears.  But irrational fears are actually pretty easy.  It's rational to say magicker created food is good for you if it has good effects.  It's irrational to be afraid magicker food is going to turn you into a mage's slave or make you shit sand for the next month.  My argument is that perhaps more PCs should be creating and/or open to irrational fears and superstitions.

That said, again I'd repeat that even a fairly simple character would probably realize they're only seeing a part of the mage's power and that it isn't all creating food and passing out water.  And those darker elements, which exist in every single mage class I've seen, can easily inspire fear.  For a fearful commoner with social indoctrination to fear and distrust mages it should be very IC to focus on the bad and ignore or downplay the good.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Angela Christine on July 12, 2006, 02:27:05 AM
The ones that become gemmed are mages that want to fit in, get along and be a useful part of society.  Part of being allowed live nearly normal lives is agreeing not to do scary bad magick around the regular people.  Mages that violate the social contract quickly wind up dead.  Elves get way more leeway for doing bad shit than mages do, when a mage starts to go bad they usually get killed as quickly as possible.

Unaffiliated mages sometimes do scary stuff, but usually not where too many people will see it.


It wouldn't be realistic for gemmed mages to start doing in scary, obviously magickal stuff.  And it is very difficult to act scary without -doing- anything, you are as likely to look like a posturing buffoon as a real threat.  


AC
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: bloodfromstone on July 12, 2006, 03:04:20 AM
I just cannot begin to disagree enough with the sentiment that 'Nakkis aren't being scared enough of magickers. From what I've seen, most of the general populous disregards them as tools. They do their thing while we ignore them, and we'll call on them if it is necessary. Since magick is a very common occurance (there are standard camp echoes for it, so we can't just blame it on PCs), the mundanes have no choice but to become accustomed.

As a few people have mentioned, even those that are afraid and hateful can't do anything about it. I don't care how much you hate Joe Whiran, if Lord Templar Bobby catches you so much as raising an eyebrow at one of his useful pets, you're going to find yourself in a world of hurt. So, yes, a lot of us are afraid of mages. We're more afraid of templars.

For what it is worth, I haven't seen anyone asking to be magicked up so they can go kill scrabs or anything of the sort. I have seen people in positions of high power request specific enchantments. I have seen orders to cast some such spell on some such person so they can do whateverthedilly. That is why we have mages. That is why they are tools.

I can't speak for the Tuluki side of things, but I really think that complaining that no one is afraid of magick in the 'Nakki camp is like acting surprised that the shovel guy at the zoo isn't afraid of being stepped on by an elephant. We work with them every day. We have a healthy fear and respect for what they can and may do, and we avoid it as best we can. But if the dung shoveller pisses his pants and runs around with his arms in the air every time an elephant walks by, he's going to get fired. When they fire you in Allanak, they kill you.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: InsertCleverNameHere on July 12, 2006, 03:08:13 AM
QuoteBut if the dung shoveller pisses his pants and runs around with his arms in the air every time an elephant walks by, he's going to get fired.

Haha, that's too funny. I choked on my Mt Dew. And as to the context it was used, I agree whole-heartedly. Terrific analogy.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jstorrie on July 12, 2006, 04:00:34 AM
One very good point that has been brought up is just how many mages are active in the Allanaki camp, and how much they are being used. This may, perhaps, be the fault of Tulukis going around killing mundane Nak PCs off left and right, I don't know, but interaction with Allanaki mundanes is becoming pretty scarce. It's almost starting to become an exclusively Nak-gemmer versus Tuluk-templar fight which can't be that fun to mundanes on either side. Food for thought.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Sephiroto on July 12, 2006, 04:38:28 AM
I didn't have time to read every page, but I am seeing some argument about what they docs say we should do in regards in magick and the evolution of our roleplay regarding magick.  Yes, we are treating magicks different lately.  Geography, customs, religion, races, and so many other things change over time.  Maybe this will be one of those changes.  I don't expect everyone to become buddy-buddy with magickers as a result of recent events; however I see room for substantially less fear and mystery of them.

The facts are:
:arrow: People are being forcefully exposed to magick good and bad.
:arrow: Many people are becoming more acceptant of magickers or generally less scared of the mystery of magick.
:arrow: These people might go home and tell their stories about how magickers   aren't as scary as everyone thinks.
:arrow: The general populace might become more aware of magicker abilities.
      

Unless we make magick much less common, the Zalanthan image of a magicker may change.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Angela Christine on July 12, 2006, 04:52:16 AM
Quote from: "Sephiroto"Unless we make magick much less common, the Zalanthan image of a magicker may change.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing, and is probably inevitable.  The image of magick has changed in the past and will continue to change in the future.

For Example:
Quote from: "Help water mage"Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

Most of the magicker guild docs talk about how employable different varieties of elementalists are.  None of them say, "Won't be hired by anyone but Oash or a Templar, or occasionally one of the other Allanak Noble Houses.  That could be evidence that the population has become more intolerance towards elementalists since those docs were written.



One region of the game becoming more tolerant of elementalists wouldn't hurt anything.  People that are grudgingly willing to work with a Vivaduan will still be scared shitless of a Sorcerer.  Sorcery is the real villian.


Angela Christine
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Vesperas on July 12, 2006, 05:31:42 AM
I mean, sure, it would be nice to be able to walk out on a road and actually worry more about raiders than that invisible Whiran...

but I don't think the answer would be to cut down on magickers.

If you want to maintain an intolerant atmosphere, its really up to the players who play the magickers, and to non-magickers keeping with the spirit of theme -- playing more terrorized-like PCs than indifferent ones.  

I don't think I'd really like to find more acceptance in any part of the game.  Magick is stirringly realistic in that its one of things that EVERYONE fears.  Kind of like nukes.  You can sort of feel safer thinking that your country can control nuclear weapons (or more terrified if your enemy does), but you'd still shit your pants if they tested it too close to home or in area you had to pass by area so often.

Of course, steps could be taken to show that the gemmers look tamer simply because the Templarate has that power -- they are the handlers holding the leash on those dogs -- and not because they are people too.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Halaster on July 12, 2006, 10:00:52 AM
Throughout the discussion I'm noticed two basic thoughts of what people think might be the outcome of how mages are viewed in Allanak after this is over.

1.  People will be more afraid because they've demonstrated their powers.

2.  People will be less afraid because they've done things to be helpful to their army.

I see no reason why both cannot happen.  Some commoners of Allanak will grow to hate them even more, because they heard tales of what happened and are now more scared.  Other commoners of Allanak will grow to hate them less, because they heard tales of what happened and are now less scared.  Different people react differently to different situations.  Heck, it might even polarize certain segements of the Allanaki population against each other as they sort of take sides in the "magicker debate".  If there even is a magicker debate.

I guess part of what I'm saying is that you can't really say "commoners will do this or that after the war", because there can very easiliy be multiple reactions.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Tlaloc on July 12, 2006, 10:21:08 AM
And to add: the War is far from over.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: moab on July 12, 2006, 10:26:16 AM
Request to Halasturd:

Please stop misreporting on Allanak's losses.


Your Tuluki bias is most disturbing!

;-)
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Halaster on July 12, 2006, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: "moab"Request to Halasturd:

Please stop misreporting on Allanak's losses.


Your Tuluki bias is most disturbing!

;-)

Heh, and here I thought someone accused me of being one-sided in the OTHER direction.  Silly players.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Morfeus on July 12, 2006, 10:35:31 AM
Quote from: "Tlaloc"And to add: the War is far from over.

I cannot say I really like this comment. I am sure we are going to win in a matter of a few days, or at worst weeks.

Wait...

Which side I am fighting for once again?
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Jherlen on July 12, 2006, 10:37:31 AM
Maybe you'll win the battle, but not the War...

... or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Hymwen on July 12, 2006, 10:47:16 AM
Quote from: "Tlaloc"And to add: the War is far from over.

While trying not to be pessimistic, I sure do hope we're at least half-way through...
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Soldier Boy on July 12, 2006, 10:52:54 AM
Quote from: "Hymwen"
Quote from: "Tlaloc"And to add: the War is far from over.

While trying not to be pessimistic, I sure do hope we're at least half-way through...

Heh. Same here. I'm enjoying things, but I'm definitely starting to get a small case of "cabin fever."
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Barzalene on July 12, 2006, 11:16:15 AM
I've read most of the thread, not all. Forgive me if I'm making a point that's been made.

If you were in a war zone with heavy shelling, at first you'd probably be peeing your pants, wanting to cry. But... bodies aren't made to sustain that level of stress over a long period of time. So, to an extent you'd grow inured to the noise and imminent threat of death. And you would become more functional. But, the fear is still there. You're just not having the heightened reaction to it. You'd never grow to like it.

I thought someone made an interesting suggestion about magickers trying to do their non-combat immediatly war magicks out of the eyes of the general soldiers. And someone else said that the higher ups told them to get over the fear. One thing that those higher ups could do is to make the suggestion in game, where instead of yelling at the scared soldiers to be unafraid, tell them magickers to only practice in set areas. If that's possible with the way the camps are set up.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Pantoufle on July 12, 2006, 11:19:01 AM
Quote from: "Halaster"I see no reason why both cannot happen. Some commoners of Allanak will grow to hate them even more, because they heard tales of what happened and are now more scared. Other commoners of Allanak will grow to hate them less, because they heard tales of what happened and are now less scared. Different people react differently to different situations. Heck, it might even polarize certain segements of the Allanaki population against each other as they sort of take sides in the "magicker debate". If there even is a magicker debate.

I guess part of what I'm saying is that you can't really say "commoners will do this or that after the war", because there can very easiliy be multiple reactions.

These statements are, far and away, the most encouraging words I have heard -- particularly coming from a staff member -- in a very long time.  It's warming to know that documentation and help files are there for our interpretation, rather than narrow minded one sidedness which forces our characters into a solely black or white mould.

Bravo!
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Empress on July 12, 2006, 04:44:49 PM
Okay I havn't read the whole thread, so if i'm repeating something or completely miss the point then sorry!   :shock:  I agree with what Vesperas said though about nakkis maybe fearing gemmed magickers less just because they are on a sort of leash.

I see it like how I see guns in real life.  I know most of you Americans give them to your babies to play with, but as a Canadian I fear guns more than anything else  :lol: If some random dude was running around the street with a gun, (like a magicker in Tuluk? Or an ungemmed magicker in Allanak?) I would probably run away screaming, but when I see a gun on a cop or an army guy (like a gemmeed magicker in Allanak?) i'm still scared of it, but I can ignore it.  Now if Canada ever attacked the US, most of us would probably fight with pitch forks and dog sled whips, but the few of us who had guns would probably be feared but as long as they were wearing a uniform so we knew they are on our side we'd probably be okay with it.  that's my theory.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Twilight on July 12, 2006, 04:53:01 PM
I don't like the gun analogy people talk about.  I think of it more like seeing a government guy in a haz mat suit walking around afraid.  Jeez, those guys in the know all have haz mat suits on, this could be bad...
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Empress on July 12, 2006, 05:00:03 PM
Quote from: "Twilight"I don't like the gun analogy people talk about.  I think of it more like seeing a government guy in a haz mat suit walking around afraid.  Jeez, those guys in the know all have haz mat suits on, this could be bad...

I see what you're saying, but I think it would be more true in Tuluk than Allanak.  Tulukis fear magick to the point where some might think they might get something just by being too close to a magicker, but in Allanak they have temples and stuff I hear and while you might not like a magicker sitting down the bar from you, it probably happens from time to time.  Maybe i'm wrong, but I think Nakkis are more afraid of what a magicker can do to you than just magick itself, hence the gun analogy.  Since my while point was how the Allanak army might fear magick I used that.
Title: Magick.
Post by: LoD on July 12, 2006, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: "Empress"I see it like how I see guns in real life.  I know most of you Americans give them to your babies to play with, but as a Canadian I fear guns more than anything else.

This is almost the exact analogy I use when considering how to treat a magicker.  The current documentation states, " Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas...".

Rocket launchers are mysterious and very rare to me.  I've never seen one up close.  I've never touched one, or fired one.  If someone was pointing one at me, I'd probably run away screaming or turn into a puddle.  However, rocket launchers are not mysterious and very rare to some of our soldiers.  They encounter them from time to time, train with them, witness what they can do, learn how to combat people using them, etc...  If there was a war that employed the use of rocket launchers, I (a civilian) would probably be on the ground with my hands over my eyes, while a soldier (military) would likely be executing the orders of his commanding officer.

Fear of magick is not innate, and it's not irrational.  Some people are afraid of spiders so small, that it can't possibly harm you -- yet they go about the house shrieking and hiding behind large objects.  That's an irrational fear.  Being afraid of something that can kill you, like a gun (or magick), is certainly a rational fear.

I think that the "gun" analogy would result in a lot of realistic RP that doesn't require people to treat them as irrational fears.  And that is ultimately what (I think) the Imms would like to see more displayed by the general populace.  Let's take a few examples:

:arrow: Magicker sits down at your bar.

Imagine if someone carrying a fully armed automatic machine gun sat right next to you at a bar you frequent.  He was dressed in such a way that showed him to belong to a gang that you friends say kills children in the street for no reason.  Would you strike up a conversation?  Nod to him politely?  Probably not.  You'd probably make an excuse for yourself to leave the bar and move away just in case that gun might go off.  Would you give him a hard time?  Probably not if you were alone.  Maybe the presence of 5 friends would bolster your courage, but I imagine most people wouldn't consider that worth the risk.

:arrow: Magicker confronts you on the road, alone.

Imagine you're hiking through the park, when you notice someone walking up carrying this machine gun.  I wouldn't wait to see if they were friendly or not, and probably move to hide, go back the other direction, or try to go around them.  If you were forced into a toe-to-toe interaction with this person, you'd probably be extremely nervous and do your best not to give them a reason to shoot you.  If they wanted to see your backpack, you might be inclined to hand it on over if it keeps that magcine gun from making a bad, bad noise.

:arrow: Magicker is a parent or sibling.

You probably aren't afraid that your parent or sibling is going to shoot you with their machine gun, but you'd still be nervous when they were around.  What if that thing went off accidentally?  What about if they point it at you as a tease?  Not funny!  The tension should be there, even with friends and family that you consider to be 100% loyal and incapable of purposefully hurting you.

:arrow: Magicker serves the City or a Noble House.

You figure that these people have earned the trust of some higher authority to carry that firearm.  They probably won't abuse that power because of those social controls, but the mere presence of the gem...er, I mean gun on their hip keeps you tense and uneasy around them.  They might feel it's no big deal, but it's a damn big deal to you if they get angry, frightened, defensive, drunk, or provoked.  Ever heard of an innocent bystander?

:arrow: Magicker stands as an enemy soldier.

Anyone wielding a gun that doesn't like who you are, how you talk, or where you come from is dangerous.  Very dangerous.  Whether you are a soldier yourself might have something to do with your reaction, but a regular civilian wouldn't think twice about hiding or sneaking away as best they could to escape the situation.

:arrow: Magick in a War

Guns are part of war.  Small guns, big guns, smart bombs, laser guided missiles, rocket launchers, all kinds of things most people will never see in their entire lives.  Anyone who has joined the military is probably going to be exposed to these things, whether they like them or not.  And they are going to be told and trained to control their fear of them while operating in the field.  Sure, some will still freeze up when shells are zipping about their heads, but self preservation becomes a powerful agent against fear when the choice is kill or be killed.

Those are a few observations of how I'd see folks feeling about a magicker without subscribing to some "irrational" fear.

-LoD
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Halaster on July 12, 2006, 05:49:39 PM
I think LoD's post is a supremely good analogy, and right on the money.  I wouldn't mind seeing it archived, in fact.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: mansa on July 12, 2006, 05:52:14 PM
I would like to see it archived...

And then I would like to see a 'sticky' at the top of the thread with links to specific 'awesome posts' of the past, which are stuck in the 'archive' section.
Title: Re: Magick.
Post by: SpyGuy on July 12, 2006, 06:18:27 PM
I agree with most of what LoD has to say but a few points I very strongly disagree with.

Quote from: "LoD"Fear of magick is not innate, and it's not irrational.  Some people are afraid of spiders so small, that it can't possibly harm you -- yet they go about the house shrieking and hiding behind large objects.  That's an irrational fear.  Being afraid of something that can kill you, like a gun (or magick), is certainly a rational fear.

.....

Those are a few observations of how I'd see folks feeling about a magicker without subscribing to some "irrational" fear.

-LoD

I should clarify what I meant when I say irrational fears.  I never meant to imply there weren't many rational reasons to fear mages.  But I feel there are also many rational reasons to embrace mages, a large part of the magick system is devoted to helpful magicks and not just magicks that can harm or kill.  And it seems from this discussion that some people are having trouble reconciling the fact that there are mages being very helpful to the army, not showing them any reason to be scared, afraid or distrustful, and then not finding reasons to discriminate against them.

A huge part of any discrimination, be it racial, sexist or magicker related, is irrational.  It's a deeply help set of beliefs and superstitions that may have no basis in fact whatsoever.  And I strongly believe that a large part of roleplaying a Zalanthan is to embrace irrational ideas.  There is no logical reason not to take the magicker food and thank him kindly.  But should people be doing that on the city streets too?  If people limit themselves to rational fears based on what mages can codedly do, if they don't "subscribe" to some irrational fears, then you lose all concepts of curses, superstitions, folklore about dark arts practiced deep inside temples and all sorts of other stuff I love about this gameworld.

Rational and irrational fears can and should exist side by side.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: amoeba on July 12, 2006, 06:19:05 PM
Heh, an image just popped up in my head based on LoD's analogy.  Think of the first Indiana Jones movie.   In the streets of the desert city he encounters the "warrior" with an impressive sword. The warrior is obviously fluent with the sword, and dangerous, whipping it back and forth in a fancy show of force.  With barely an emote, mostly just rolling his eyes, Indiana Jones pulls out a handgun and drops the warrior dead in one shot.

Buff mage killing warrior: 0
Indiana Jones (the mage): 1
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Dre on July 12, 2006, 06:38:58 PM
Sooner or later all the PCs coming from the war will die and ultimately be forgotten...Any disposition, insight and knowledge on magickers will die with them. Their stories may only live on in the minds of a few players OOCly...IC bards will (Unfortunately) never sing of their heroics and the cities always quickly forget about them even if mentioned on the rumour boards. Fear and Loathing will return to normal soon enough.

I really do believe even the # of magicker PCs will go down, that its only a trend.
Title: Re: Magick.
Post by: LoD on July 12, 2006, 07:05:29 PM
Quote from: "SpyGuy"A huge part of any discrimination, be it racial, sexist or magicker related, is irrational.

Perhaps.  I would agree that some discrimination is based on stereotypes which may or may not be accurate.  If someone has never met any magickers, then their opinions of them will be formed by the stories and events their society uses to describe them.  Those stories may be exaggerated.  Those stories may be untrue, but they are likely not irrational.  There have been too many documented and widely acknowledged events of magickal devatstation on a global level to substantiate a fear of all things magickal.

People aren't treating magickers poorly because "Grandpa told me all magickers were lazy bastards."  They are treating magickers poorly, and exhibiting a fear of them based on plenty of "fearful" material that is available to every single player in the game (i.e. The Dragon, for non-city dwellers, destruction of Steinal, destruction of Old Tuluk, etc...)

Quote from: "SpyGuy"There is no logical reason not to take the magicker food and thank him kindly.

Yet, there are plenty of valid reasons why people wouldn't take food created by a magicker.  It's magick.  It's not created with ingredients they can see and touch.  It's magick.  If they eat it, THEY may become magickers themselves.  They might die.  While ignorant, I think all but the most desperate of people would be loathe to consume something that they might think would taint them.  It's not worth the risk to your common man.

I'm certainly not saying that a PC couldn't decide for themselves, based on multiple interactions with helpful magickers, to accept magickal bread and thank the caster, but I certainly don't fault any character who chooses not to accept a single thing from a magicker out of ignorance and fear.

I agree that rational and irrational fears can and should exist, but the fear of magick in Zalanthas is rooted in a long series of orally documented events with visible consequences.  That should be enough to hold magickers accountable for many generations to come and treat them with suspicion, hostility, and fear.

-LoD
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 12, 2006, 07:40:53 PM
QuoteI agree that rational and irrational fears can and should exist, but the fear of magick in Zalanthas is rooted in a long series of orally documented events with visible consequences. That should be enough to hold magickers accountable for many generations to come and treat them with suspicion, hostility, and fear.

I think that pretty much explains how I feel about it.  I don't want to see everything change because they helped out.  I don't want to see it change because there are more magickers being social at the bar.  I don't want to see it change because people like what magickers can do to help.

The other part of my tangent, though, is that I don't like seeing the abilities of magickers glorified.  At all.  I think templars who did such would be taking a dangerous gamble with the attitude of the populace towards them (and while you may say that does not matter, I seriously doubt a templar would get mad props for his successes if it results in commoners causing more trouble or becoming a little less controllable as a result of his actions).  I think commoners who stood up for them would be looked on with suspicion and a small to large amount of loathing.

Like it or not, the sentiment towards mages is a deeply-ingrained, long-standing part of the culture of the people.  Even over a -very- long period of time, I think it would take a -lot- of work for their social status to rise, for them to become more accepted.  And every step of the way, I think the people would become more and more troublesome until that 'breaking point' in the distant future where people actually get an inkling of open-mindedness about the matter.

That said, I have no qualms with -reasonable- cases of PC's coming to better terms with mages.  All I want is for people to realize that it -will- be going against the grain, and that it would probably have more visible repercussions from the vnpc population than what is generally reflected in game, since those vnpcs show no actual reaction without someone telling you.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Hot_Dancer on July 12, 2006, 08:19:46 PM
Sure would be nice to have something to fear other than magickers for a change.

Hot Dancer
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: LauraMars on July 12, 2006, 08:22:15 PM
Quote from: "Hot_Dancer"Sure would be nice to have something to fear other than magickers for a change.

*special apps a mekillot*
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 12, 2006, 08:35:38 PM
QuoteSure would be nice to have something to fear other than magickers for a change.

There are -tons- of things to fear.  Have you actually looked at what some of the wildlife of this game is -like-?

Just because you know you can kill it doesn't mean it's not scary.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: EvilRoeSlade on July 12, 2006, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: "Soldier Boy"
Quote from: "Hymwen"
Quote from: "Tlaloc"And to add: the War is far from over.

While trying not to be pessimistic, I sure do hope we're at least half-way through...

Heh. Same here. I'm enjoying things, but I'm definitely starting to get a small case of "cabin fever."
Don't worry.  I'm sure you'll die soon.

I'm just now preparing to enter this war, and I hope like hell I don't come in just as things are wrapping up.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: John on July 12, 2006, 10:45:22 PM
Quote from: "Hymwen"
Quote from: "Tlaloc"And to add: the War is far from over.

While trying not to be pessimistic, I sure do hope we're at least half-way through...
I understand that sentiment. On the one hand, if you're not involved, it sucks. On the other hand, you can die any minute now and make a char to join the war. I'm really hoping to do the latter, although of course I somehow made a long-lived char  :roll:
Title: Re: Magick.
Post by: John on July 12, 2006, 10:59:07 PM
Quote from: "LoD"Imagine if someone carrying a fully armed automatic machine gun sat right next to you at a bar you frequent.  He was dressed in such a way that showed him to belong to a gang that you friends say kills children in the street for no reason.  Would you strike up a conversation?  Nod to him politely?  Probably not.  You'd probably make an excuse for yourself to leave the bar and move away just in case that gun might go off.
Small problem though, you don't want to risk offending the gun-totter, especially if they can kill you no matter where you go. If you leave, he might think you left because of him and get offended and curse you and you're whole family.

And that is why I think not running away the second you see a magicker is completely fine.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Guido on July 12, 2006, 11:37:19 PM
How does one make a character to join the war? I'm not familiar with special apps or any of that mojo.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: mansa on July 12, 2006, 11:38:59 PM
Quote from: "Guido"How does one make a character to join the war? I'm not familiar with special apps or any of that mojo.

You should have a character who wants to fight in a war for a citystate.  You should try and contact someone inside the army, and ask them how to join, in game.  They will inform you what to do, in game.

You don't need to special app anything.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Angela Christine on July 13, 2006, 03:24:01 AM
Quote from: "Morfeus"
Quote from: "Tlaloc"And to add: the War is far from over.

I cannot say I really like this comment. I am sure we are going to win in a matter of a few days, or at worst weeks.

I'm sure they said on the news that the boys will be home by Githmas!   :wink:


Quote from: "mansa"
Quote from: "Guido"How does one make a character to join the war? I'm not familiar with special apps or any of that mojo.

You should have a character who wants to fight in a war for a citystate.  You should try and contact someone inside the army, and ask them how to join, in game.  They will inform you what to do, in game.

You don't need to special app anything.

This is probably obvious, but if you want to get involved in the war right away you'd probably be best off taking the Warrior guild.  The others could certainly be useful, but a warrior is pretty good at defending themself and useful offensively right from day one.  That makes it a little more likely that you will survive your first real battle.  Good luck.


AC
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Halaster on July 13, 2006, 08:48:54 AM
LoD is right about the part about magick being feared as an ingrained part of the society.  In fact, the world.  Most people throughought the Known World fear it.  While people may not say it on a day to day basis, magick is the reason Zalanthas is a desert world and not a green lush world.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Barzalene on July 13, 2006, 10:17:26 AM
Quote from: "Halaster"LoD is right about the part about magick being feared as an ingrained part of the society.  In fact, the world.  Most people throughought the Known World fear it.  While people may not say it on a day to day basis, magick is the reason Zalanthas is a desert world and not a green lush world.

How aware are people of that on a day to day basis? It happened a long time ago, and more people are illiterate. Even those who know probably can't envision a lush planet, so even knowing would people really "know?"

I hope that doesn't sound argumentative. I'm not disagreeing, I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept. Not the concept that magick is scary, but the concept that people are very consciously aware of the fact that magick devestated their world.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Halaster on July 13, 2006, 10:31:17 AM
Actually, I wouldn't say that people are consciously aware - not most of them at least.  More like fairy tales they're told as children.  "Don't do magick, kids, it's what made the desert!".  Some may not even believe that to be true, really.  Or may not care, because it's not like they can do much about it.

Also, considering that literacy is illegal, oral traditions and storytelling would be more common.  Sitting around the fire at night, telling an old story about how "once upon a time, the world was lush and green..".  It's more like it's one of those cultural subconscious beliefs.  But there are a few people who would actually know about it - the historians and storytellers.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Morgenes on July 13, 2006, 10:37:20 AM
Even if they can't directly invision a lush planet, they are aware of the concept of forests and plants.   Storytelling and oral tradition will have passed down the idea that the world was a much better place, and it was magick that destroyed it.  However, note that is mainly towards sorcerery, not elementalism.  Elementalism is scary in the same way that Gods or nature are scary in other worlds/games.  It's a matter of reverance and fear for something that is much more powerful than you.  You don't mess with something that could blick you out of existence with a thought.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Yokunama on July 13, 2006, 11:46:07 AM
Quote from: "Dalmeth"No offense, but magickers are getting too common to be mysterious anymore.  Even then, they act like super powered humans, not mysterious monsters.

Several magickers do exist, if you take into the consideration of the VNPC population. Some whom have not yet discovered their magickal talents. They are not mysterious anymore, because we, the players, tend to let our knowledge of how dangerous magickers really are and what they are capable of bleed into our roleplay, and ignoring the documents explaining how the mundane should interact with them.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jhunter on July 13, 2006, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: "Yokunama"
Quote from: "Dalmeth"No offense, but magickers are getting too common to be mysterious anymore.  Even then, they act like super powered humans, not mysterious monsters.

Several magickers do exist, if you take into the consideration of the VNPC population. Some whom have not yet discovered their magickal talents. They are not mysterious anymore, because we, the players, tend to let our knowledge of how dangerous magickers really are and what they are capable of bleed into our roleplay, and ignoring the documents explaining how the mundane should interact with them.

Yeah, ICly there really isn't any more magickers than any other time really. There just currently is a higher percentage of those that are pc magickers now than there was before. This shouldn't really change anyone's attitudes about magick since it's an OOC aspect of the game, not an IC change.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Yokunama on July 13, 2006, 12:31:20 PM
Quote from: "Pantoufle"
Quote from: "jhunter"It seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.

Of course they are.  They want to interact because this is a MULTI-USER game.  Can you blame them?  The purpose of fear and hate is not to segregate the playerbase from interacting with one another in any way shape or form, it's to help define one's role and actually ENCOURAGE (the right kind of) interaction.

Hate and fear doesn't segregate the playerbase.
I can recall several situations where hate and fear create some of the best interaction. The HRPT is one example of this (Hate). Players do not need to get along with every single PC and NPC out there, because they want interaction - Interaction comes and goes.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Angela Christine on July 13, 2006, 12:35:12 PM
Quote from: "Halaster"LoD is right about the part about magick being feared as an ingrained part of the society.  In fact, the world.  Most people throughought the Known World fear it.  While people may not say it on a day to day basis, magick is the reason Zalanthas is a desert world and not a green lush world.


But that was Sorcery, defiling sorcery.  I think people do know that there is a difference, and know that Sorcery is much, much worse than elemental magick.  And since they don't know the sorcerous nature of their kings, they probably believe that Templar powers are very different from Sorcery too.  Lumping elementalists in with sorcerers makes sorcerers less special, and less scary.  

There are dead places in the known world that bare the ash blasted scars of sorcery ages after the events that created them.  If you use your maximum level of fear and revulsion on an elementalist, then you have no where to go when you run into a Defiler.  Discovering the ash traces of a defiler should be one of the most gut wrenching things around, not just "ho hum, looks like there's another magicker."



If an Elementalist is a guy with a gun, a Sorcerer is a guy who farts radioactive waste.



Angela Christine
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Halaster on July 13, 2006, 12:41:11 PM
Quote from: "Angela Christine"

But that was Sorcery, defiling sorcery.  I think people do know that there is a difference, and know that Sorcery is much, much worse than elemental magick.  And since they don't know the sorcerous nature of their kings, they probably believe that Templar powers are very different from Sorcery too.  Lumping elementalists in with sorcerers makes sorcerers less special, and less scary.  

Quite true.  A point I totally overlooked.
Title: Magick.
Post by: LoD on July 13, 2006, 01:06:39 PM
Quote from: "Yokunama"Several magickers do exist, if you take into the consideration of the VNPC population. Some whom have not yet discovered their magickal talents. They are not mysterious anymore, because we, the players, tend to let our knowledge of how dangerous magickers really are and what they are capable of bleed into our roleplay, and ignoring the documents explaining how the mundane should interact with them.

I don't think that the lack of mystery or belief of an increased presence is something to be blamed solely on a player's OOC knowledge and purposeful disregard for the documentation.  This can be a factor, but there are many.

IC events have changed some of the magicker distribution in the world.  When Tuluk was at least a tolerant home for elementalists, it kept many of them from travelling the wilds.  They had food, protection, homes, wives, children, perhaps careers, and many other benefits that came along with being a functioning member of that society.

Once the Cataclysm happened, all of these people were flushed out into the wilderness to die, or scrap out an existence.  This was a major center of civilization suddenly forced to purge a good portion of their population.  That relocation introduced a higher body count of magickal beings to the surrounding lands (i.e. grasslands, tablelands, grey forest, red desert, etc...) which many smaller tribes inhabit.

People from these tribes, and characters that travel these lands, could very well sense or notice an upward shift in the number of magickers from years past.  The increased exposure to magickal persons (sorcerous or elemental) could remove some of the sense of mystery about a previously rare creature/being that is now competing for resources such as water, food, and real estate.

The documentation isn't dynamic enough to outline what these IC events would do to the general perception of the many peoples of Zalanthas.  An Allanaki soldier, tablelands tribal elf, Luir's outpost mercenary and Tuluki citizen will all have very different levels of exposure to magick.  The documentation paints the picture with broad strokes, and I think it's perfectly acceptable for people to tailor their RP to their IC situation without it being a negative action.

-LoD
Title: Magick.
Post by: LoD on July 13, 2006, 01:17:58 PM
Quote from: "Angela Christine"But that was Sorcery, defiling sorcery.  I think people do know that there is a difference, and know that Sorcery is much, much worse than elemental magick.  And since they don't know the sorcerous nature of their kings, they probably believe that Templar powers are very different from Sorcery too.  Lumping elementalists in with sorcerers makes sorcerers less special, and less scary.

Would your average non-magickal person really know?  The Dragon sucked the land try.  Tektolnes buried Steinal under sand.  Elemental magicks destroyed Tuluk (we assume, since Tuluk began killing them).  We've seen devastation and death from every source of magick in the game on a global level.

I'd be more inclined to believe that your average Joe Schmoe doesn't understand which magickers leave ash behind them or that elemental magickers cannot "use spell X".  Most people would know that magick, in many forms, has been the cause of some pretty catastrophic destruction and the people wielding it are dangerous.

Would you (the common person) know the difference between different kinds of guns?  Whether one had armor piercing rounds, or a faster rate of fire, or quicker reload time?  Or would you just recognize that it was dangerous because you've heard of guns killing people?  If I was walking toward my house and someone pulled me aside and said, "Don't go in there, there's a man with a gun inside."  I wouldn't ask, "Well, what kind of gun?  Is it dangerous or REALLY dangerous?"

-LoD
Title: Re: Magick.
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 13, 2006, 01:25:11 PM
Quote from: "LoD"
Quote from: "Yokunama"Several magickers do exist, if you take into the consideration of the VNPC population. Some whom have not yet discovered their magickal talents. They are not mysterious anymore, because we, the players, tend to let our knowledge of how dangerous magickers really are and what they are capable of bleed into our roleplay, and ignoring the documents explaining how the mundane should interact with them.

I don't think that the lack of mystery or belief of an increased presence is something to be blamed solely on a player's OOC knowledge and purposeful disregard for the documentation.  This can be a factor, but there are many.

I am new to the game, I have no experience playing a magick-user here, and since I'm not all that interested in the magickal side of the game I'm not hunting down info on it here on the forums. So OOCly I know almost nothing about magick. However, my character who is still quite inexperienced in the world has been exposed to a -ton- of IC talk about magick, threatening interaction with magickers, and news about magickers. She's fast becoming fairly savvy ICly about what magickers can and can't do, how to defend against them, etc. Magickers are less mysterious to her because every time I'm in game, the subject of magick is present. Every time. And this is in the heart of Tuluk.

So I think blaming OOC knowledge of magick bleeding into the gameworld really minimizes how much activity, talk, and so on there is about magick going on IC.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Intrepid on July 13, 2006, 01:29:05 PM
I think Tuluk does not care about the difference between elementalists and sorcs.  They're considered the same for their purposes.

In Allanak, they're a group of unnatural freaks taking up a low place in society.  They're scum who draw power from either elemental forces not of this world or, worse, from elemental beings with their own agenda...but at least they're not sorcs, so we tolerate their presence and existence.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Yokunama on July 13, 2006, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: "Armaddict"Mages are not heroes no matter what they do in a war.  If they call down a giant column of flame with fiery blue lightning bolts that destroys -every- enemy in range, the hero is the templar who brought them and controlled them until they did this.  The mage was a tool, that's it, just like the sword in a bynner's hand.  No credit goes to mages...inflate their ego, and there's going to be problems.

I disagree with this comment.
Let us keep in mind, the armies and its soldiers are tools to the templars as well. If the unit of doom brings several victories to the forces of Allanak, more than likely both the templar and the unit will get the credit for the victiory. Also, the sorcerer kings will recieve some sort of credit. When it all comes down to it, everyone is a -tool- to the sorcerer kings and his templars.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cale_Knight on July 13, 2006, 01:46:37 PM
Is the gemmer going to be a hero? No, not likely. The commoner sergeant of a unit that does particularly well is probably going to be publically lauded as an example of what commoners can achieve in the service of the Highlord.

A gemmer who does something fantastic for the military is going to be rewarded much more quietly, since the templarate is never going to glorify magehood like they'd glorify regular military service.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Dre on July 13, 2006, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: "Intrepid"I think Tuluk does not care about the difference between elementalists and sorcs.  They're considered the same for their purposes.

In Allanak, they're a group of unnatural freaks taking up a low place in society.  They're scum who draw power from either elemental forces not of this world or, worse, from elemental beings with their own agenda...but at least they're not sorcs, so we tolerate their presence and existence.

From my humble perspective i am inclined to agree with this post. :D
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 13, 2006, 04:21:29 PM
QuoteArmaddict wrote:
Mages are not heroes no matter what they do in a war. If they call down a giant column of flame with fiery blue lightning bolts that destroys -every- enemy in range, the hero is the templar who brought them and controlled them until they did this. The mage was a tool, that's it, just like the sword in a bynner's hand. No credit goes to mages...inflate their ego, and there's going to be problems.


I disagree with this comment.
Let us keep in mind, the armies and its soldiers are tools to the templars as well. If the unit of doom brings several victories to the forces of Allanak, more than likely both the templar and the unit will get the credit for the victiory. Also, the sorcerer kings will recieve some sort of credit. When it all comes down to it, everyone is a -tool- to the sorcerer kings and his templars.

I disagree with your disagreement :P

The problem arises with the consequences of glorifying mages.  If mages come back and are treated as heroes, you have at least a significant portion of the populace who is not happy with it.  Templars may have absolute power over commoners, but making them very unhappy and dissatisfied makes their job more complicated, and may end up having less time to pursue their own goals because of those disgruntled commoners.

It goes to public relations, as I was talking about earlier.  You don't make someone the people hate, fear, distrust, or do not understand into a hero.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Hot_Dancer on July 13, 2006, 04:36:05 PM
How do you stop a class of people so far above and beyond the norm from becoming heroes to the groups they serve?

Hot Dancer
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 13, 2006, 04:38:02 PM
By recognizing that they are freaks and subhuman at best.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 13, 2006, 04:41:36 PM
My train of thought here from LoD's guns/armament analogy is:

Guns...gang members...drug dealers...rappers...idolized by the masses...

Yeah, there's no way that anything so dangerous and antisocial could ever come to be seen as heroic, or to be lauded as celebrities. Especially in a well-adjusted place like Allanak.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 13, 2006, 04:43:59 PM
Someone is a magicker enthusiast, heh.

This is a flimsy analogy...but if someone fired all of the U.S.'s nukes at every single enemy they'd ever had, and successfully wiped them -all- out...would our allies consider us heroes, or would they be wary of getting wiped out themselves?
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 13, 2006, 04:47:57 PM
Quote from: "Armaddict"Someone is a magicker enthusiast, heh.

This is a flimsy analogy...but if someone fired all of the U.S.'s nukes at every single enemy they'd ever had, and successfully wiped them -all- out...would our allies consider us heroes, or would they be wary of getting wiped out themselves?

If the US fired nukes at every single enemy we've ever had, wouldn't uh...we not have any allies left? Since, you know...we were at war with most of them at one point in time...

And as to your question, probably Yes and Yes.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 13, 2006, 04:48:05 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"My train of thought here from LoD's guns/armament analogy is:

Guns...gang members...drug dealers...rappers...idolized by the masses...

Yeah, there's no way that anything so dangerous and antisocial could ever come to be seen as heroic, or to be lauded as celebrities. Especially in a well-adjusted place like Allanak.

Not even the same at ALL. Those are all people. They have no weird abilities. Furthermore, our societies are completely and utterly different. We love individuals with interesting mindsets and abilities. Zalanthans don't. At the root, Zalanthans are extremely jealous of a magicker's ability. Sometimes conciously, often subconciously. That is the root of the hatred as well as fear of those powers. It isn't like someone is in a gang. It is like someone is an alien who has the abiltiy to melt your mind. And you cannot compare the two cultures - they are apples and oranges.
Title: Magick.
Post by: LoD on July 13, 2006, 04:48:31 PM
Quote from: "Hot_Dancer"How do you stop a class of people so far above and beyond the norm from becoming heroes to the groups they serve?

By ruling with an iron fist and controlling information.  The public knows what templars want them to know.  They revere whom templars wants them to revere.  The Sorcerer-King and his templars have had a good many decades of practice in telling his people just what and whom they should worship.

Magickers are a troublesome lot with advantages and obvious disadvantages.  While they are controlled, and even used, I doubt the templarate would want to give any of them the idea that they're not constantly one step away from being murdered with a single thought if they don't immediately obey.  Hero status may swell a magicker's head, make them forget their place, grow bold and come to believe they were more to the City than a carefully crafted tool.

As someone mentioned, I believe magickers that perform well would be rewarded quietly and secretly, while the City would find a less controversial and more easily manipulated subject to hold up for the masses to congratulate.

-LoD
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Angela Christine on July 13, 2006, 05:06:25 PM
If you said that the average person doesn't understand the difference between a Preserver and a Defiler I'd agree 100%.  A sorcerer is a sorcerer, and just because he isn't raping the land right now doesn't mean he won't do it later.

Even in Tuluk people should be far more concerned about a Defiler than an elementalist.  Elementalists are blamed for destroying part of the city.  Defilers are blamed for Killing the World.  A krathi can set your garden on fire, but you can re-plant the next day.  A Defiler can drain all the life from the land so that nothing will ever grow there again.

They both cast spells, but only Sorcerers gather, and gathering is what destroys life.

QuoteSkill Gather  (Magick)  


This skill allows your character to collect magickal energy from nearby lifeforce. All magick and all life are inextricably linked, and thus whenever anyone wishes to accumulate sufficient 'mana' for spellcasting, one must drain the necessary energy from a lifeforce.

There are two schools of gathering: one which brutally takes life from the local flora, and another which attempts to collect energy from oneself. The activity of gathering will inflict physical harm to the participant, the extent of the damage is based on your character's skill proficiency and relationship to the land.

Defiling, as the first method is called, will typically cause a premature aging effect on the sorcerer. In addition, as is well known, recuperation occurs at a greater rate where more life exists, and so defiling causes an indirect harm both to the defiler and all other nearby lifeforms. Lastly, the accumulation of magick by defiling creates a thin film of ash near the sorcerer, thus marking his/her presence.

Once a sorcerer has begun defiling in earnest (i.e. an unfavorable relationship to the land), it will become more and more painful to preserve. In order to return to the path of the preserver (as sorcerers who do not take the Land's energy are known) the defiler must find arable land and water it continuously until his/her relationship with the land is restored to at least "neutral" status.

The rulers of most centers of civilization make no distinction between preservers and defilers, and sorcerers of any sort are strictly outlawed. Gathering may alert the templars to a sorcerer's presence.


Syntax:


gather <amount> <source>

Examples:


(Preserving)
> gather 15 self

(Defiling)
> gather 20 land
See also:


guild_sorcerer, magick_basics, stat


Don't roll them all together, they are very different.  Making them the same makes Sorcerers less scary, and deprives elementalists of a useful place in society.


The law also has a stronger interest in keeping Sorcerers down.  A sorcerer has the possibility of evolving into a Sorcerer-King, with the ability to share power with his own Templars and eventually to become a threat to the other Sorcerer-God-Kings.  The Templarate of both cities should be much more concerned with Sorcery than Elemental magick.



Angela Christine
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 13, 2006, 05:20:28 PM
Quote from: "Cegar"
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"My train of thought here from LoD's guns/armament analogy is:

Guns...gang members...drug dealers...rappers...idolized by the masses...

Yeah, there's no way that anything so dangerous and antisocial could ever come to be seen as heroic, or to be lauded as celebrities. Especially in a well-adjusted place like Allanak.

Not even the same at ALL. Those are all people. They have no weird abilities. Furthermore, our societies are completely and utterly different. We love individuals with interesting mindsets and abilities. Zalanthans don't. At the root, Zalanthans are extremely jealous of a magicker's ability. Sometimes conciously, often subconciously. That is the root of the hatred as well as fear of those powers. It isn't like someone is in a gang. It is like someone is an alien who has the abiltiy to melt your mind. And you cannot compare the two cultures - they are apples and oranges.

Cegar, respectfully, I think you completely missed my point.

-- It is human nature to respect, fear, and desire power. (This is not an attribute of any one culture, it is an attribute of all.)
-- It is human nature to want to align oneself to power in order to receive the benefits thereof.
-- It is also human nature to rationalize the reality of how power is taken and held in order to further one's own goals.
-- Magick is obviously very powerful. It's even more clearly powerful now to mundane characters who are seeing it in operation during the war.
-- Just because a type of power is seen as antisocial or destructive does not mean that it won't be adulated by some part of a culture, even though it may be reviled by another part. Gang-banging rappers are one example. TV shows/movies about the Mafia is another example. There are examples all around us. Adulation follows -power-.

All of this together makes it highly possible for a cult of mundane magick-lovers to arise, unless they are squished by the templarate as LoD suggests would have to be done.

And actually, I can compare cultures all I want. I have a degree in Anthropology :)
Title: Magick.
Post by: LoD on July 13, 2006, 05:25:43 PM
Quote from: "Angela Christine"Even in Tuluk people should be far more concerned about a Defiler than an elementalist.  Elementalists are blamed for destroying part of the city.  Defilers are blamed for Killing the World.

Yes, but how can you explain to a Tuluki that lost his family, career, and home to elemental magick that they should be more concerned with sorcerers?  I agree that "people in the know" would be more concerned with them, but not your average joe commoner, especially in the northlands.

Quote from: "Angela Christine"Don't roll them all together, they are very different.  Making them the same makes Sorcerers less scary, and deprives elementalists of a useful place in society.

The law also has a stronger interest in keeping Sorcerers down.  A sorcerer has the possibility of evolving into a Sorcerer-King, with the ability to share power with his own Templars and eventually to become a threat to the other Sorcerer-God-Kings.  The Templarate of both cities should be much more concerned with Sorcery than Elemental magick.

You have to look at who is "rolling them together".  Northern?  Southern?  Elven tribes?  Southern commoners?  Southern templars?

I agree 100% that each Sorcerer-King and his Templars would be much more concerned about sorcerers than with elementalists, more because they represent a threat to their power than an interest in global safety.  Beyond these people who are schooled, trained, and exposed to the differences in magicks, I don't think most people would recognize the distinction.

Southern folk may understand that a "Sorcerer" was worse than an "Elementalist" if discussing the subject in a tavern, but if they were confronted by the two forces somewhere in the world -- I don't think they would really be in a position to understand the difference:

If a group of hunters were riding in the desert sands when something like this happened:

Someone shouts, in sirihish:
   "You have invaded my lands, and will die for your transgressions!"

Magickal currents swirl about someone.

Someone utters an incantation.
The tall, lanky man disappears into a cloud of pink smoke.

Would your character:

A) Run screaming "Sorcerer, Sorcerer!"
B) Run screaming "Elementalist!  Elementalist!"
C) Run screaming "Magicker, Magicker!"

If you answered C (and must choose one from the list), then my guess is your character wouldn't recognize the difference.  Tales of how a magicker gathers their energy vs. an elementalist are probably not the common topic of most common men and women.  Templars, elementalists, sorcerers, sure.  But probably not the common person.

-LoD
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Cegar on July 13, 2006, 05:26:33 PM
That doesn't make current world cultures similar to Zalanthan culture.

The populace of Allanak already has power over the magickers, and it wouldn't make sense for them to relinquish that power in order to follow them. Sure, a few might (it has happened in the past) but the majority would be more comfortable with them at a lower social level. Allanak commoners already have a power over magickers.

Magickers just aren't the same as drug dealers or rappers. They aren't even on the same level. They're like the mutants from X-Men.

Yeah, that isn't the point, but your comparison doesn't really make any sense. Yes, people like to follow power, but they're already in power over the magickers. Why would they want to give them any more power?
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 13, 2006, 05:28:58 PM
Quote-- Just because a type of power is seen as antisocial or destructive does not mean that it won't be adulated by some part of a culture, even though it may be reviled by another part. Gang-banging rappers are one example. TV shows/movies about the Mafia is another example. There are examples all around us. Adulation follows -power-.

If a mafia don approached you asking for you to head up part of his new crime-ring, would you accept?

If a gang-banging rapper asked you to be his bodyguard and carry a nine, would you accept?

There's also a difference between curiousity and intrigue and adoption.  The former is what leads to those shows.

In Zalanthas, I see allying oneself with magickers for power to be -viable-, but not common practice, either.  If only for the reason...-you- aren't getting the power.  You're leeching off of it, and that source of 'your' power can still smash you under a thumb if you try to get more.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 13, 2006, 05:33:09 PM
QuoteThey both cast spells, but only Sorcerers gather, and gathering is what destroys life.

Uhm.  Can people tell when someone else gathers from the land, if they don't make ash?  Have most commoners seen that gathering is different than most  gemmed elementalists?

I really do think they -would- be put in the same boat by the majority of people, simply because exposure to -real- sorcerers is so low that hardly anyone knows anything about it aside from ash on the ground = them.  Really...I think it's templars who would dictate that -this- magicker outside the gates needs -this- much more attention in eradication over that rogue elementalist he's been hunting down up until now.

I kind of swing back and forth on that.  Either way...I think there's a distinct relation between elementalist magick and sorcerer magick, which -is- the ability to cast spells.  Both are bad.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jcarter on July 13, 2006, 05:39:34 PM
The problem with the firearm analogy is that guns only have one purpose: to kill. Nobody has a gun that can heal someone completely from the brink of death and might be the only remaining hope to keep Grandma alive, or the power to make mounts while stranded in the middle of the desert. Magickers have a wide array of powers, and I'm sure that commoners are at least aware that they can do some things that aren't always malicious.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 13, 2006, 05:42:36 PM
If a clear-cut satan worshipper offered to have an archdemon heal your wounds, would you accept?

*snickers* I realize I'm being totally flimsy.  But magick is magick.  Do the ends justify the means, or not?

Edited to add:  The guns analogy is being taken too literally.  Someone else has something you don't care for, don't understand, or don't trust, and you have qualms against things carrying that thing.  Not necessarily overt, but at least discomfort.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: SpyGuy on July 13, 2006, 06:57:25 PM
The whole praising magickers because they have power is false on a few levels.  For one (I'm no anthropologist) I would figure people see rich criminals/rappers as role models because they represent a form of power (money) that is attainable.  They're cool because they have all the money/women/cars that other people want to have.  Allanaki's, on the other hand, are trained to see magick powers as a curse, demonic possession or worse and so won't want them.

Secondly, the gemmed are traditionally in lower social power than commoners.  The -real- powers to commoners are the nobility and the templarate.  And it's their job to continually reinforce the idea that the gemmed are subhuman tools.  Doesn't mean they shouldn't reward gemmed for good service but those rewards should be private.  Granted from a PC angle since magickers can be incredibly useful then the templarate may call on them more than mundane PCs hence creating an illusion of them being valuable servants.  The trick I suppose (I've never played a templar so I'm just talking out of my ass) is to somehow balance using them as servants while perpetuating the stereotype that they're still subhuman and that normal people are better.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Yokunama on July 13, 2006, 07:23:04 PM
Quote from: "Armaddict"
QuoteArmaddict wrote:
Mages are not heroes no matter what they do in a war. If they call down a giant column of flame with fiery blue lightning bolts that destroys -every- enemy in range, the hero is the templar who brought them and controlled them until they did this. The mage was a tool, that's it, just like the sword in a bynner's hand. No credit goes to mages...inflate their ego, and there's going to be problems.


I disagree with this comment.
Let us keep in mind, the armies and its soldiers are tools to the templars as well. If the unit of doom brings several victories to the forces of Allanak, more than likely both the templar and the unit will get the credit for the victiory. Also, the sorcerer kings will recieve some sort of credit. When it all comes down to it, everyone is a -tool- to the sorcerer kings and his templars.

I disagree with your disagreement :P

The problem arises with the consequences of glorifying mages.  If mages come back and are treated as heroes, you have at least a significant portion of the populace who is not happy with it.  Templars may have absolute power over commoners, but making them very unhappy and dissatisfied makes their job more complicated, and may end up having less time to pursue their own goals because of those disgruntled commoners.

It goes to public relations, as I was talking about earlier.  You don't make someone the people hate, fear, distrust, or do not understand into a hero.

The templars are not there to make sure everyone has a smile on their face.

This is a game after all. :wink: Anything can happen.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Gimfalisette on July 13, 2006, 07:45:13 PM
Just to reiterate, the whole thing I'm saying here is based on the question of "how might the Red Desert War change Allanaki social structures, in regards to the perspective of the regular Amos on magickers?" Also note that I'm not saying this will happen, just that it's a good fit with human psychology.

1. Amos enlists in the militia and goes off to war. Amos has always feared and hated magickers, and he knew nothing about them.

2. Amos gets to the Allanaki camp and all of a sudden he is surrounded by magickers. This is scary for him.

3. In the camp, Amos sees several things happen due to the power of the magickers.
         -- The magickers feed and water him.
         -- The magickers blow the enemy up.
         -- The magickers heal him after the battle.

4. Amos starts to think, "You know, not all of them are jerks. They're blowing the other guys up, not me. And they are really powerful, wow!"

5. Amos meets an especially powerful and charismatic magicker who takes Amos under his/her wing as a minion.

6. Amos takes the minion job because he believes that by being close to this power, he will become more powerful himself in various ways. (Maybe money, maybe the ability to strongarm people, whatever.)

7. Amos is right, having friends who can kick other people's asses is pretty cool. Plus the free food / water / healing / whatever for life is nifty.

It's just like commoners who buddy up to nobles, or to merchant house family members. They're often doing it because being near power makes you more powerful. And it doesn't always matter whether that power is stigmatized as antisocial/destructive, because it's power.

On Earth, people with power, no matter how awful and murderous and feared they are, always end up with plenty of minions who are willing to go to the dark side in order to get the power trickle-down. Yes, it might be partly the fantasy of "that could be me!" But I don't think that's mostly what it is. It's that being close to power makes you more powerful.

Hitler had plenty of friends when he was powerful. Stalin too, Mao too. The people around these leaders knew that they could be the next target, they knew about the evil that surrounded them, but they still hung out, because it made them more powerful to do so. It's in human nature to sell one's soul in order to meet one's desires.

Again, I'm not saying this is what will happen, I'm just saying that when Amos gets his eyes opened about magick, it could happen.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Armaddict on July 13, 2006, 07:55:12 PM
You forgot all the psychology that happens when he comes back and tries to tell the people who -weren't- there.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Larrath on July 13, 2006, 08:05:28 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
3. In the camp, Amos sees several things happen due to the power of the magickers.
         -- The magickers feed and water him.
         -- The magickers blow the enemy up.
         -- The magickers heal him after the battle.
-- The magickers eat his soul, make his babies mutants, make him unlucky and give him awkward rashes in funny places.
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
4. Amos starts to think, "You know, not all of them are jerks. They're blowing the other guys up, not me. And they are really powerful, wow!"
All the more reason to fear them.  And if Amos voices his thoughts, a templar might arrange for a mage to harass him just to teach him a lesson.
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
5. Amos meets an especially powerful and charismatic magicker who takes Amos under his/her wing as a minion.
A gemmer?  One or both of them probably die within two weeks.  If not a gemmer, Amos eventually learns what a dumb move he made by agreeing. ;)
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
6. Amos takes the minion job because he believes that by being close to this power, he will become more powerful himself in various ways. (Maybe money, maybe the ability to strongarm people, whatever.)
Amos is in serious trouble.
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
7. Amos is right, having friends who can kick other people's asses is pretty cool. Plus the free food / water / healing / whatever for life is nifty.
Who says Amos is right?

Remember this - it doesn't seem that the Templarate wants people to like magickers or be comfortable about them.  They're most likely making active efforts to put the fear into people.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: jcarter on July 13, 2006, 08:29:04 PM
I think we can all pretty much see that the results are going to be unpredictable and there's basically a rational reason for each side.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: bloodfromstone on July 13, 2006, 09:32:50 PM
I think someone getting buddied up with a magicker for power (out of fear, necessity, etc) would be really interesting. It shouldn't happen all the time, but powerful magickers, such as sorcerers or particularly nasty free magickers, hording a couple of minions could be really fun. I'm sure it's happened before. No, not everyone would dream of being a magicker's pet. I would say equating them to modern day gangstas and rappers isn't a great example, but I think the possibility should certainly be there.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Saphreal on July 13, 2006, 10:58:52 PM
Wow, it looks like this thread has really progressed since I last visited it.  BTW, I just want to give everyone props.  I have been watching you, and have seen some awesome RP dealing with magick lately.
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: Yokunama on July 14, 2006, 01:08:12 AM
Quote from: "jcarter"I think we can all pretty much see that the results are going to be unpredictable and there's basically a rational reason for each side.

This all lies within the hands of us players. :wink:
Title: Something to Think about During the War
Post by: amish overlord on July 14, 2006, 01:28:11 AM
Quote from: "Saphreal"Wow, it looks like this thread has really progressed since I last visited it.  BTW, I just want to give everyone props.  I have been watching you, and have seen some awesome RP dealing with magick lately.

OMG did you see me last night I am so embarassed caught me with my pants down!

Amish Overlord  8)