Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sanvean on June 24, 2006, 08:02:17 PM

Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sanvean on June 24, 2006, 08:02:17 PM
I'm using this thread to compile a list.  Post the ones you think should or shouldn't be allowed and I'll put together a doc of yeses and nos.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Larrath on June 24, 2006, 08:13:15 PM
Acceptable:
teen
teenager
boy
girl
youth
adolescent
urchin
lass
lad
breed
halfbreed
mutant/freak -> special cases

Unacceptable:
lady
maiden
maid
kid
hag
stumpy
titan
brat
child
ragamuffin
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Lizzie on June 24, 2006, 08:21:00 PM
Shoulds: girl, boy, man, woman, youth, child, young adult, youthful man/woman, male, female, [each race as its own noun, eg. human], lass, lad

elf only if the PC is really an elf
human only if the PC is really a human
okay to use humanoid if race is questionable

elvish = adjective describing a PC who looks like an elf but might or might not really be one, as in "the long-haired elvish lad"

questionable: elfling, for a young elf of either gender? gargantuan (as a noun, questionable. As an adjective, no problem). behemoth (since it refers to something other than a humanoid, in real terms and because I probably spelled it wrong), creature (if it's a really wild-looking mutant okay, not okay if it isn't?)

Should nots: maiden, bastard, chick, gal, guy, dude, kid, abomination

Those are some I came up with on the fly.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Lazloth on June 24, 2006, 08:22:12 PM
Larrath, you honestly find 'urchin' acceptable, but 'ragamuffin' not?  In what context is 'stumpy' a noun?

I have little to add other than saying I find nothing bothersome about any of the waif/guttersnipe variants.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Vesperas on June 24, 2006, 08:26:04 PM
I think 'hag' ought to be acceptable.  The definition, as far as I can find is:

1 noun:   an ugly evil-looking old woman

From a perusal of OneLook Dictionary.  I think we can tell the difference between mean-looking and angelic-looking.


Suggestions for acceptable use:
giant  
brute
hag
crone
youngster
beldame/beldam




Questionable (special cases, close desc inspection, etc):
ruffian
harridan

Unacceptable:
vagabond
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: -Bebop on June 24, 2006, 08:36:01 PM
Wow?  Am I the only one that thinks this is really constricting?  To make an sdesc are we going to have to go over this list and choose from the ones there?
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Cegar on June 24, 2006, 08:45:40 PM
Quote from: "Larrath"Acceptable:
teen
teenager
boy
girl
youth
adolescent
urchin
lass
lad
breed
halfbreed
mutant/freak -> special cases

Unacceptable:
lady
maiden
maid
kid
hag
stumpy
titan
brat
child
ragamuffin

What in the hell? Your list makes no sense.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Hymwen on June 24, 2006, 08:46:10 PM
There are very few nouns that bother me, personally. I would much prefer something a little original to the hordes of "man", "woman", "male", "female", "insert-race-here". Much to my surprise, I had "waif" rejected today, which I personally think is rubbish, but you can safely add that to the list of no-go's. :)
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Vesperas on June 24, 2006, 08:48:30 PM
I don't see anything wrong with it.  I don't know if the staff is going to make a "THE" list, but this will save me (and immortals) a shitload of time in getting apps approved over a problem with ONE word.  I'm sure you will be able to come up with things not on the finished list, but it'll come down to the best judgement of the imm over whether or not it gets approved.

Anything that saves me time, I like it.  Heh.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Vesperas on June 24, 2006, 08:52:09 PM
Apologies for double-post.

Quote from: "Cegar"
Quote from: "Larrath"Acceptable:
teen
teenager
boy
girl
youth
adolescent
urchin
lass
lad
breed
halfbreed
mutant/freak -> special cases

Unacceptable:
lady
maiden
maid
kid
hag
stumpy
titan
brat
child
ragamuffin

What in the hell? Your list makes no sense.


I think that.....

Lady - refers to nobility.
Maiden - refers to virginity.
Maid - See maiden, but questionable.
kid/brat/child - slang for child.  And you can't play children.
stumpy - Armageddon slang for dwarf (I don't see a problem, personally)
titan - Some people think this means the thing from mythology
ragamuffin - Up for discussion?
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: mansa on June 24, 2006, 09:10:11 PM
i like fellow, chap, bloke, boy, broad, dame, lass, matron, clown, artist, hooker, blonde (when refering to a female), blond (when refering to a male), petite (when refering to a female), petit (when refering to a male), tomboy, wench, witch, serf, slave, peon, worker, cadet, junior, teenager, child, maid

and more!
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Incognito on June 25, 2006, 12:31:40 AM
Dont forget my favorite : Midget!!
Thats GOTTA be in the acceptable list.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: flurry on June 25, 2006, 12:45:33 AM
Good

Most of the ones I'd call "good" are pretty obvious choices others have already named (man, woman, teen, youth, lad, lass, boy, girl, adolescent, halfbreed, breed, elf, half-elf, half-giant, halfling, dwarf, human, male, female).

edit to add:  'redhead' and 'brunette' (or 'brunet', for mansa) are good too.

Iffy or just bad

person, individual, biped, mammal, organism, thing, thief, warrior, burglar, warrior, assassin, ranger, merchant, maiden, damsel, ne'er-do-well, scalawag, etc. etc.

I'm generally okay with the more creative words in sdescs, as long as they aren't imposing some interpretation on the reader (e.g. nouns like beauty, knave, etc.)

I once submitted an NPC whose sdesc had the noun "amputee", but as far as I know it wasn't accepted.  Probably ended up where all sub-par NPC submissions go (you know, the Island of Misfit NPCs).
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Marauder Moe on June 25, 2006, 12:55:40 AM
I dislike 'breed' and 'stumpy'.  I don't think in-game slang should be applicable for descriptions.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Anonymous on June 25, 2006, 01:00:26 AM
Any word that is subjective and forces an opinion on the reader should not be allowed.  That goes for any words that can be used as a synonym for beautiful/handsome or ugly.

I'm also not very fond of using the words tall or short in sdescs, because anything that's not an elf will not be tall to an elf, and anything that's not a dwarf won't be short to a dwarf.  It is very subjective because of the diversity of racial heights.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: flurry on June 25, 2006, 01:04:05 AM
Quote from: "-Bebop"Wow?  Am I the only one that thinks this is really constricting?  To make an sdesc are we going to have to go over this list and choose from the ones there?

The other approach is for each Immortal to continue to use his or her discretion, which naturally leads to some degree of inconsistency.  Inconsistency which, though nobody's fault, can occasionally lead to frustration or disappoinment.  

(I know I had a word I was looking forward to using for months, only to be asked to replace it.  :?  I let myself be sad for a minute and then I just made the edit.  Actually, in a way it made me happy to see some word get rejected, even though I just  didn't want it to be my word.  But I digress.)

At least with nouns, it's possible to generate a consensus list of what?  No more than 50 or 75 words or something like that?   With the adjectives, forget about it.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Hymwen on June 25, 2006, 01:11:09 AM
I'll laugh the day I see "the tall, scrawny necker" or something like that.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Tamarin on June 25, 2006, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: "Ashyom"Two. Zalanthan commoners doesn't really place much value on marriage.

Or being virgins.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: bardess on June 25, 2006, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: "Tamarin"
Quote from: "Ashyom"Two. Zalanthan commoners doesn't really place much value on marriage.

Or being virgins.

Kinda seems to me why maiden would be fine.  Obviously married isn't going to be an option.

You can't see that someone is a virgin, but you can't see that they're "vivacious" either.  simply inferred or ignored.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: mansa on June 25, 2006, 11:37:11 AM
Quote from: "bardess"
Quote from: "Tamarin"
Quote from: "Ashyom"Two. Zalanthan commoners doesn't really place much value on marriage.

Or being virgins.

Kinda seems to me why maiden would be fine.  Obviously married isn't going to be an option.

You can't see that someone is a virgin, but you can't see that they're "vivacious" either.  simply inferred or ignored.

the sdesc is saying that you don't have sex.  much like if you had the sdesc 'whore' saying that you -do- have sex, a lot.

it's infering a certain sexist view on the game.  we shouldn't care if you're married or if you don't have sex, that's not important.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Vanth on June 25, 2006, 11:45:45 AM
Yeah, I was the hardass who rejected both 'waif' and 'harridan' in one day.  And I stand by both of those, although I'm following this discussion with interest.

I'm a writer, so I understand the desire to use the precisely perfect word.  On the other hand, as a writer you must consider your audience, and in this case, your first audience is an immortal app approver.

As with the above examples, I tend not to like any words (adjective or noun) in any of your descs, which tell me how to interpret your appearance.  I don't want to be told your social class, your guild class, your personality, etc. etc.  I just want to see an objective physical description.

On the other hand, I look forward to having a consistent list of words that are acceptable, and if waif and harridan make that list, I'll just have to deal with it. ;)
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Cuusardo on June 25, 2006, 11:53:21 AM
Descriptions are supposed to be universal to any position your PC may be in, including unconscious.  If you use the word urchin or scamp, which apparently means mischevious or playful youngster, how is the reader supposed to know just by looking at the child that it is mischevious or playful, especially if it is unconscious?

I don't particularly care for the use of the word maiden either, seeing as you can't tell that someone is a virgin or not just by looking at them.  Using it synonymously with "young girl" or "young woman" is understandable, but I think that after a PC reaches a certain age, maiden should change to a more appropriate word.  A middle aged female on Zalanthas is hardly considered a young woman anymore.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Malken on June 25, 2006, 11:59:47 AM
I think it would greatly help if we could have a few more characters in the short description.. I'm thinking that often people will try to use the word 'maiden' or 'waif' instead of just plain young man, or young boy, or young woman just because we quickly run out of space to try and fit in our short description..

Now, with even more restriction, I think that we need to seriously reconsider how much characters we should be allowed..
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: marko on June 25, 2006, 12:10:15 PM
I actually like waif.  I think it's fitting for the environment.

I was contemplating another one that's sometimes used by characters talking about women - bint.

Would that be acceptable?

the small, apple-eyed bint

Literally, bint means woman / girl although it has offensive connotations to the british.

In Arabic it means daughter.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Hymwen on June 25, 2006, 02:09:16 PM
I think it would help especially new players if every other NPC didn't have a word in their sdesc that PCs aren't allowed to use.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: mansa on June 25, 2006, 02:21:47 PM
Quote from: "Hymwen"I think it would help especially new players if every other NPC didn't have a word in their sdesc that PCs aren't allowed to use.

Well, NPCs don't change jobs.  NPCs remain doing what they do, for the rest of their lives.  That's the major different between PCs and NPCs.  That's part of the reason why you can have 'SOLDIER' NPCs, and 'BEGGAR' NPCs.  Because they won't change and they won't get rich.

PCs will.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Anonymous on June 25, 2006, 02:25:59 PM
So we have:

teen
teenager
boy
girl
youth
adolescent
lass
lad
mutant/freak -> special cases
child
man
woman
adult
male
female
human
dwarf
elf
half-elf
halfling
half-giant
harridan
hag
crone
giant
brute
youngster
chap
fellow
bloke
broad
dame
matron
blonde
brunette
red-head
tomboy
slave
adolescent
amputee
spinster - I would argue that only nobility can marry, thus anyone elderly could be considered a spinster
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Pantoufle on June 25, 2006, 03:13:16 PM
That waif should be rejected is rather irksome.  I'm awfully curious on what grounds it's considered unacceptable.  Especially considering the keyword 'breed' (not half-breed, just breed) is somewhat common.  What on earth is a "breed"?  It's a colloquialism for half-breed but thereto again, half-breed could imply mul or half-elf interchangably.  As such, half-breed and breed should not be permitted.  Waif, on the other hand, is simply ... a waif.  Someone scrawny, frail and all that.  Consult your dictionaries, quibble at your leisure, but waif can and does mean a scrawny, underfed individual, as in: Look at that model, she's such a waif!

Half-giant should always be half-giant and never giant, since giants are legendary creatures in the game.

Kid and lad are slang words and logic therefore dictates that allowing these terms would be akin to allowing dude or bloke.  They aren't proper English words.  It's like using the word 'dunno' in an essay when you're trying to say 'do not know'.  I know a large majority of you are opposed to boy and child because it invokes cutesy images unbefitting with the ArmageddonMUD theme, but I'd rather see boy accepted and kid not since the former is a bonafide English word, the latter is slang.  By what logic is kid more acceptable than: the bodacious babe?

I also dislike "Krath-burned" or "Krath-dark" or "Krath-anything-else" because Krath is essentially a colloquialism, a shortening of Suk-Krath.

Maiden doesn't make a great deal of sense but it's been used so much that I think it a near hypocricy to suddenly begin rejecting the word.  We could always assume 'maiden' is synonymous with 'woman' by Zalanthas standards.

Elvish (or dwarvish or anything else -ish) is a reference to items, not people.  A person is elven, a rug made by elves is elvish.  A person is dwarven, a sword made by dwarves is dwarvish.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Bluefae on June 25, 2006, 03:22:18 PM
Quote from: "-Bebop"Wow?  Am I the only one that thinks this is really constricting?  To make an sdesc are we going to have to go over this list and choose from the ones there?

No, honey, you're not.  In both my life and my writting, I place a premium on consistency, but this strikes me as an area to make an exception.  

Part of the beauty of the game for me is in taking in and *enjoying* the rich descriptions I run across, in rooms, items, and especially with people.  I can certainly appreciate the frustration of inconsistency, which I generally loathe.  However, having a proscribed list that one can't deviate from would be akin to having other lists for hair-style, body type, hair color, etc.  I've seen these put forth on this forum before, and didn't care for those either, for the same, compelling reason:  they have the potential of limiting creativity, and creativity is the life-blood of Armageddon.

- Bluefae, who still has to finish her Goddess Archetype post...
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Cegar on June 25, 2006, 03:26:13 PM
Yes urchin or scamp could specifically refer to someone who is actually active... but do you not see people who's features and overall appearence evoke to mind an urchin or scamp? Even when unconcious/sleeping, these terms can apply by simple physical appearence... we are not going for a strict dictionary definition, but rather the connotation of the word.

To me, maiden means that 1) a woman is young, or at least young looking and 2) she looks very chaste and pure, however that "look" may be defined. Now, I have some friends who look very chaste and very pure... however, they are not virgins by any stretch of the imagination. A maiden COULD mean someone who is a virgin, but it most likely means someone who LOOKS like a virgin - someone innocent looking... see what I mean?
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Hymwen on June 25, 2006, 03:49:09 PM
Quote from: "mansa"
Quote from: "Hymwen"I think it would help especially new players if every other NPC didn't have a word in their sdesc that PCs aren't allowed to use.

Well, NPCs don't change jobs.  NPCs remain doing what they do, for the rest of their lives.  That's the major different between PCs and NPCs.  That's part of the reason why you can have 'SOLDIER' NPCs, and 'BEGGAR' NPCs.  Because they won't change and they won't get rich.

PCs will.

I'm not talking about titles such as soldier and beggar, but adjectives such as 'stately' which I've seen on several NPCs (and PCs, for that matter) but was rejected when I tried it for one of my recent characters.

What bothers me the most isn't the amount of restriction, but the fact that you can get rejected for using a word that is apparently unacceptable, and the next day you might see some other PC with that same word in their sdesc because it's basically up to the personal opinion of whatever imm is reviewing your character.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Bebop on June 25, 2006, 04:21:47 PM
My last character needed one sentance tweaked in her background.  I still would have liked to keep things the way they were, but I wanted to play so I tweaked it and it wasn't long before it was approved.

What's next we're going to only put a few backgrounds to choose from or a few main desc we can choose from.  Or a list of words we are capable of using in those descriptions.  I for one think this is a terrible idea.  So what if an IMM rejects your app, just fix it.  A little difference between waif and woman/man isn't a big deal just roll with it or e-mail the account if you really have a problem with it.  I know it's crackageddon and you don't want to wait that long for your app but still.  Making a list of words we can and can't use seems really constricting.  I for one won't be using it, I will continue to use my creativity and see if I am approved or not.

As far as waif I have seen more then one NPC with this title if I'm not mistaken:

Quote from: "Dictionary.com"A homeless person, especially a forsaken or orphaned child.
An abandoned young animal.
Something found and unclaimed, as an object cast up by the sea.

I don't think by looking at you someone is going to be able to tell you are homless or cast away by the silt sea.  I can see why this would be acceptable to an NPC who's soul purpose is to stand there and be homeless and dirty, but I don't know about PCs.

However, I do see on the flip side how waif could be interpretable as someone rugged, and disheveled, unkempt that looks cast aside.  And I am all for creative long descs.  If we're going to start monitoring sdecs because everyone might not immediately no the word then we should get rid of sdescs that including Armageddon words like ginka, horta, jihae etc because newbs won't know what those are.  I'm not being serious of couse because I love armageddon based descriptions my point is where do you draw the line?  And I don't think this is it.

Instead of seeing some list that confines what kind of sdescs you can use what I would must rather leave it up to the IMMs or e-mail the account if I really had a problem with it.

Anyway, I hope this list will only be used as a solid reference whenever an imm is in question of whether they should approve a word or not an not some hard set and stone rule list that is going to be checked with militant accuracy.  I think also if an IMM has to go through the list everytime they approve an app they are going to not want to approve apps as much because looking over a huge list can be time consuming. Also I can see problems with the list not being checked militantly and someone still getting rejected for something someone else would approve.  The angry player goes back checks the list and sees that another player got accepted for using the word and then e-mails the imms about the other character.  Blah blah blah.

My point is I don't think this would entirely solve the problem.  Secondly I don't even think this is a big problem and there are two other much simpler ways to solve it.  And secondly I don't like the idea of only being able to pick out of predetermined words set by the players.

There will always be different IMMs checking different apps so it's never going to be a constant factor anyway.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: mansa on June 25, 2006, 04:29:52 PM
Quote from: "Bebop"...Instead of seeing some list that confines what kind of sdescs you can use what I would must rather leave it up to the IMMs or e-mail the account if I really had a problem with it.

Anyway, I hope this list will only be used as a solid reference whenever an imm is in question of whether they should approve a word or not an not some hard set and stone rule list that is going to be checked with militant accuracy.  I think also if an IMM has to go through the list everytime they approve an app they are going to not want to approve apps as much because looking over a huge list can be time consuming. Also I can see problems with the list not being checked militantly and someone still getting rejected for something someone else would approve.  The angry player goes back checks the list and sees that another player got accepted for using the word and then e-mails the imms about the other character.  Blah blah blah.

My point is I don't think this would entirely solve the problem.  Secondly I don't even think this is a big problem and there are two other much simpler ways to solve it.  And secondly I don't like the idea of only being able to pick out of predetermined words set by the players.

There will always be different IMMs checking different apps so it's never going to be a constant factor anyway.

What if this list isn't published for the players to see, (of course, after we discuss the pros and cons of each word on the GDB), and only kept on the immortal side, as a guideline?  I think that may solve some of your worried questions.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Lizzie on June 25, 2006, 04:51:15 PM
A waif is what you said, but waifish is a good word to use instead.

"A waifish green-skinned lass is here."

Waifish does exactly what you'd want it to do. It tells the player that the character looks like it was cast from the sea, unwanted, abandoned. It doesn't tell the player that the character 'is' cast from the sea, unwanted, or abandoned. That brings to my mind a young girl (with the lass) who is unkempt, dishevelled, dirty, with raggedy clothes and who smells bad. Someone who has no one to care for her and therefore has no understanding of caring about herself. All that with a single word, that isn't a questionable noun, but instead is an adjective describing what someone looks like instead of who she is.

Whorish can work instead of whore in the same way I think. A few others have adjectives that can replace them, to describe what someone looks like rather than what they actually are.  I found waifish in the dictionary under "waif, see also." Maybe other people can find lots of other alternatives to "inappropriate" words.

L. Stanson
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Medena on June 25, 2006, 04:52:10 PM
I don't really have objections to any of the words being suggested here and wouldn't be too concerned over seeing them in the game. However, since some of the words clearly are contentious, as is evidenced by this discussion, I'd suggest that the final list be nothing more than uncontentious, neutral descriptors of race, gender and/or age.

The problem with most of the controversial words is not with their literal meaning but rather with what they connote - often leading to conclusions about status, condition, character or even how we ought to feel toward the person.  Harridan does not simply mean an old, mean woman; it suggests someone who scolds, is vicious and mean-spirited and so suggests what one ought to feel toward her before ever having interacted with the person.  We don't allow adjectives like "grumpy" or "nasty" or "shrill-voiced" so why should a noun which implies all that be any more permissible?  Waif does not simply mean a young, homeless orphan (and really, should denoting a living condition be acceptable?) but it also tells me ahead of time how my character is going to feel about this character.

So, yeah, let's stick to more neutral nouns and save the fancy stuff for the adjectives.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Gaare on June 25, 2006, 05:06:44 PM
Quote from: "Larrath"Acceptable:
teen
teenager
boy
girl
youth
adolescent
urchin
lass
lad
breed
halfbreed
mutant/freak -> special cases

Unacceptable:
lady
maiden
maid
kid
hag
stumpy
titan
brat
child
ragamuffin

I think Larrath's list is pretty good.

About maiden: I do not like it in sdecs, not because I have some good reason.. it simply sounds to me like.. suits better in a medivial fantasy RPI or that kind.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: ale six on June 25, 2006, 05:15:21 PM
When 90% of all characters in the game use racial nouns or just "man/woman" anyway, I really don't see the big deal here. But FWIW I don't think words that describe anything more than physical attributes belong in sdescs, which is why I don't like to see words like maiden, urchin, waif, hag, etc. They all have subjective connotations.

NPCs are different because they serve a role as scenery. An npc written as a waif will always be a waif, while a PC written as a waif may not always act or appear waifish.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: jstorrie on June 25, 2006, 08:32:47 PM
DICKENS-WHELP
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: path on June 26, 2006, 11:23:11 AM
Personally, I think hag and maiden, off Larrath's list, are fine. They have stronger connontations which you get to deal with in game, and that can be really fun.

As far as the definition of maiden, I've heard it contended that since maiden means unmarried, in the world of Zalanthas, it equates naturally with commoners. Do you think it should be possible to tell if someone's from the nobility on first glance? I do.

As for hag:
1   An old woman considered ugly or frightful.

That's a fantastic descriptive, because it sums up so many different aspects all at once.

Waif, in my opinion, should be fine if the background and the description warrent it.

I don't want to lose any of the color of our game. I'm delighted when I see some of the over-the-top short descriptions. People are trying to conjure up a first impression and a briefly stated overview. It's not easy. It's a pleasure to see it finely done. It's a pleasure to see people trying.

I'm worried about seeing us further limited. The original posts on Ask the Staff which originated (as far as I know) this discussion, pertained more to a feeling of supression than one of what's inappropriate.  I'd much rather scowl at the occasionally absurd than limit the creativity of the majority.

I wish this discussion had sparked a desire to permit more literary freedom instead of the reverse.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: marko on June 26, 2006, 11:25:11 AM
Speaking of hag... what about crone?
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: moontug on June 26, 2006, 11:31:10 AM
I support the expressive freedom of the players.

big time
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: path on June 26, 2006, 11:32:09 AM
Crone is awesome. Crone is superfly.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: mansa on June 26, 2006, 11:50:02 AM
Quote from: "path"...
I don't want to lose any of the color of our game. I'm delighted when I see some of the over-the-top short descriptions. People are trying to conjure up a first impression and a briefly stated overview. It's not easy. It's a pleasure to see it finely done. It's a pleasure to see people trying.

I'm worried about seeing us further limited. The original posts on Ask the Staff which originated (as far as I know) this discussion, pertained more to a feeling of supression than one of what's inappropriate.  I'd much rather scowl at the occasionally absurd than limit the creativity of the majority.

I wish this discussion had sparked a desire to permit more literary freedom instead of the reverse.


There is a conflict of intrest on the immortal side of things, as to which is best nouns to use and not use.  I'm extremely thankful that they've come to us to ask us what is acceptable and what is not, rather than just voting on the words and then saying, 'this is how it is from now on'.

I think this list will be awesome.  You won't have people who apply for 'kid' and get rejected, and then see someone with 'kid' in game.  That makes players angry.  It also makes a conflict on the immortal side between the people who do the applications.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: rishenko on June 26, 2006, 12:17:59 PM
The problem I have with restricting breed is that half-giants and half-elves lose a decent number of characters trying to cover their race in their sdesc.  I have a helluva time trying to come up with a good sdesc with the 36 character limit as it is - putting those in the sdesc just exacerbates the problem.

It would be nice if we had some racial names, actual names, for each of them.  Like "corval" for half-elves, and "gorags" for half-giant, or something far more eloquent than those. Heh.

However, if the imms were to show us some more love and bump the character limit on sdescs up to, say, 45 or 50... that would be wonderful too.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Briarfox on June 26, 2006, 12:25:41 PM
I really never cared much for teen/teenager in an sdesc. It just didn't quite seem to fit.

I have seen a few sdesc that were pretty much subjective with words such as radiant, vivacious, comely, regal, and a string of others that are mildly forcing. You read the mdesc and they are just hot, hot, hot from head to toe with words that push it. So when you play someone who shouldn't drool and yet here you go with being told her breasts or his package is unrivaled in eye-catching yumminess, what are your options?

I like the term 'breed' very much so because 'breed' isn't -that- slang in-game. You are a half-elf, right? You are a half-breed of some manner between elf/human/other half-breeds so you -are- a breed. I think it really fits in an sdesc, honestly.

I do like 'crone' and 'spinster' to an iffy level because both are generally -really- old women and I just don't see a large percentage of women making it that far because the world is harsh and life expectancy isn't all that high. I still like them though and smile when I get a chance to see them.

I like 'waif' and I think it fits in the MUD but I think the mdesc should very much support it. I see a 'waif' being diminutive and skinny, dirty with those distant, dull eyes of having seen a horrible existence. 'Waifish' is also a fitting term but 'whorish' is -really- not acceptable because your idea of a whore in look might not be Amos' idea of what a whore looks like. Besides, honestly, can anyone describe a PC whore in Zalanthas solely on their appearance? If you can it's probably your perception as a player, not as a character. So 'whorish' is way too subjective.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Aldiel on June 26, 2006, 04:04:53 PM
Quote from: "Larrath"
Unacceptable:
lady
maiden
maid
kid
hag
stumpy
titan
brat
child
ragamuffin

Ok, I'm not sure I understand why some of these are unacceptable.   Could you explain further, Larrath.  I could see Maid and Brat as being unacceptable, but what's wrong with Kid and Child?
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Zacharai on June 26, 2006, 05:11:39 PM
Quote from: "path"Waif, in my opinion, should be fine if the background and the description warrent [sic] it.

I think a lot of people feel the same way.  I couldn't disagree more.

There is one huge thing implied in the word 'waif' that you can't tell by looking at someone -- that they are homeless.  The other definitions of 'waif' aren't worthwhile -- this isn't an object cast up from the sea (the silt sea?), and it's not an animal.  Therefore, it's a homeless person.  Whether or not a person has a home or shelter is something that should be discovered ICly.

If I step outside and I see two dirty children, what makes one a 'waif' and the other one not?  They could look the exact same, but one actually has a large and loving family and a palatial estate on the other side of the city.  She's just out playing in the mud.  By definition, she's not a waif.

If I can't look at you and see something about you (while you don't move a muscle), it shouldn't be in your description.  I like bright-line rules like that.

I recognize there needs to be flexibility here -- precise definitions are sometimes sacrificed for playability's sake.  Is this one of those times?
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Nao on June 26, 2006, 05:19:37 PM
Quote from: "Zacharai"
Quote from: "path"Waif, in my opinion, should be fine if the background and the description warrent [sic] it.

I think a lot of people feel the same way.  I couldn't disagree more.

There is one huge thing implied in the word 'waif' that you can't tell by looking at someone -- that they are homeless.  The other definitions of 'waif' aren't worthwhile -- this isn't an object cast up from the sea (the silt sea?), and it's not an animal.  Therefore, it's a homeless person.  Whether or not a person has a home or shelter is something that should be discovered ICly.

If I step outside and I see two dirty children, what makes one a 'waif' and the other one not?  They could look the exact same, but one actually has a large and loving family and a palatial estate on the other side of the city.  She's just out playing in the mud.  By definition, she's not a waif.

If I can't look at you and see something about you (while you don't move a muscle), it shouldn't be in your description.  I like bright-line rules like that.

I recognize there needs to be flexibility here -- precise definitions are sometimes sacrificed for playability's sake.  Is this one of those times?

Definitely depends on the dictionary you use, and dictionary.com doesn'T seem to list everything.
My dictionary simply says a waif is a bedraggled child...
Title: Overly pedantic, yes.
Post by: Zacharai on June 26, 2006, 05:41:39 PM
Quote from: "Nao"Definitely depends on the dictionary you use, and dictionary.com doesn'T seem to list everything.
My dictionary simply says a waif is a bedraggled child...

The definitions I used were common among the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (no date cited), American Heritage Dictionary (2000), and WordNet from Princeton (2003).  A Google for 'waif definition' seems pretty comprehensive.
Title: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sanvean on June 26, 2006, 07:55:00 PM
The purpose of this exercise is to solve the problem of some words being allowed by some staff but not by others, meaning that the player faces the luck of the draw when getting approved, as well as frustrating people who have seen a word used in another PC's description but been turned down for it.

I will put the link to the definitive list on a webpage when I have a more complete version.

The aim is not to destroy creativity - people are welcome to keep trying to find new and interesting sdescs.

I want to restrict this to nouns, and leave adjectives for some other, more ambitious time.  I will note that people presenting sdescs like "the average human", "the nondescript elf" or "the average male" - this HAS been tried before and we don't accept it.  Try using common sdesc words if you really want to be nondescript, like "the tall, dark man".

Yes, some of the words on the unapproved list are used for NPCs and will cotninue to be used for NPCs for reasons explained elsewhere.

Generally the reasons I have been putting words on the unapproved list are: too slangy (breed, dude, kid, lady, stumpy), too reminscent of a non-Zalanthan concept (spinster, maid), too young (child, boy, girl), too incomprensible (dickens-whelp), too misleading (abomination, giant, titan), too job-related (warrior et al)
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Bluefae on March 21, 2008, 02:39:03 AM
     Sorry to resurrect this thread -- could someone point me to the final list?  Danke!
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: mansa on March 21, 2008, 04:35:13 AM
http://www.armageddon.org/general/words.html
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Fathi on March 21, 2008, 05:00:29 AM
Whoooaaaa, no 'breed'?

:(
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: AmandaGreathouse on March 21, 2008, 05:36:15 AM
Um, not much to chime in, just wanted to say that I really like the use of androgynous in sdescs, like the tattoist in that bar. I think it is pretty cool to see people that aren't right of visible as male or female, especially from a distance in a crowded establishment.  ;D
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Bluefae on March 21, 2008, 10:52:53 AM
Quote from: mansa on March 21, 2008, 04:35:13 AM
http://www.armageddon.org/general/words.html

     Sterling, M., as usual.   :)
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Fnord on March 21, 2008, 12:13:42 PM
I've seen boy or girl in sdescs before.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Tisiphone on March 21, 2008, 01:31:59 PM
Quote from: Fnord on March 21, 2008, 12:13:42 PM
I've seen boy or girl in sdescs before.

Before, but they are no longer allowed. I had an app rejected specifically for that reason.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: jcarter on March 25, 2008, 11:23:00 PM
Quote from: Nouns that are not allowed
dame

So I take it we're not allowed to say cool 1950s noir things like "that hood just clipped my molly!" and such as well?

This game is too harsh for me.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Briarfox on March 25, 2008, 11:41:58 PM
I have seen atleast one 'breed' in the last two months which made me pout with jealousy.

What about she-elf? Can this be acceptable?
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Jingo on March 26, 2008, 02:36:09 AM
This list seems pretty arbitrary.

Teenager is allowed by child is not?
Lass is allowed but dame is not?

I don't get it.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Yam on March 26, 2008, 02:38:20 AM
Yeah.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Dalmeth on March 26, 2008, 02:55:51 AM
Quote from: Jingo on March 26, 2008, 02:36:09 AM
This list seems pretty arbitrary.

Teenager is allowed by child is not?
Lass is allowed but dame is not?

I don't get it.

In my experience, arbitrary decisions like that come from... well, experience.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Jingo on March 26, 2008, 03:16:47 AM

Quote from: Dalmeth on March 26, 2008, 02:55:51 AM

In my experience, arbitrary decisions like that come from... well, experience.

Which is fine... so long as we are told why.

I suppose the explanation for dame is that it has a high class connotation that is not always present. A dame could either be a member of the english aristocracy or one of the girls from 'Sin City'.

Child, boy, girl, elfess and giantess I really don't have a problem with. And I guess the rest can be made adjectives anyways.


Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: brytta.leofa on March 26, 2008, 11:50:22 AM
Quote from: Briarfox on March 25, 2008, 11:41:58 PM
I have seen at least one 'breed' in the last two months which made me pout with jealousy.

Yup.  Believe I saw a "girl" fairly recently, too (that I thought was a PC).

Some of the exceptions may be for a reason, though, special app or otherwise.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sanvean on March 26, 2008, 12:00:49 PM
QuoteI've seen boy or girl in sdescs before.

Yes. Sometimes staff forget and let them slip through.

The list's purpose is basically to head off problems that have arisen with various nouns.  These fall into one of two categories: they lead the player or the players around her/him into incorrect play or they are overly jarring to other players.

Child, boy, girl, etc fall into the first category. People tend to play these characters unrealistically or take advantage of unrealistic play by other players. A classic example would be "the blue-eyed little boy", which was a sorcerer (back in pre-karma days) relying on the reluctance of other players to kill a child. Zalanthan life is harsh and brutal, and childhood in the way we know it falls by the wayside quickly. A 13 year old on Zalanthas -- the earliest possible starting age -- has known death, disease, brutality, hunger, and templar whim. They have seen those around them drunk or spice-addled as well as having sex.  And need to be played as such.

The other list is words that have proven jarring. This is indeed an arbitrary list -- I've tried to apply common sense when compiling it.  I continue to add words when discussions come up about specific words or when a word is being consistently bugged.typoed by other players. 
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Bluefae on March 26, 2008, 12:36:43 PM
Sanvean, would some of the descriptors in the "arbitrary" category be special app-able (assuming a clear and compelling reason, etc.)?  Regardless, I'm happy you took the time and trouble to compile the list, as it no doubt saves on rejection heart-ache.  Also, just reading it can be helpful when trying to find the noun to bring your critter alive.

Edited to add:  Would it be inappropriate to ask about the reasoning behind specific words?  As someone who's juggling far too many projects herself, I can appreciate that following up on the whims of others isn't always high on the priority list.   ;)
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: LoD on March 26, 2008, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Bluefae on March 26, 2008, 12:36:43 PM
Edited to add:  Would it be inappropriate to ask about the reasoning behind specific words?  As someone who's juggling far too many projects herself, I can appreciate that following up on the whims of others isn't always high on the priority list.   ;)

I believe that Sanvean already answered this to some degree in her earlier post:

Quote from: Sanvean on June 26, 2006, 07:55:00 PM
Generally the reasons I have been putting words on the unapproved list are: too slangy (breed, dude, kid, lady, stumpy), too reminscent of a non-Zalanthan concept (spinster, maid), too young (child, boy, girl), too incomprensible (dickens-whelp), too misleading (abomination, giant, titan), too job-related (warrior et al)

If there are specific words you have questions about, that don't generally fall into one of the categories that she mentions above, perhaps you could mention those?  However, it seems fairly plain to me what the motivations behind disallowing certain nouns has been in the past and likely remains today.

-LoD
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Simple on March 26, 2008, 01:35:20 PM
I've seen breed..
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Fathi on March 26, 2008, 02:41:11 PM
Okay. If this is the topic where I'm allowed to do it, I will just list the words that I'm curious about.

1. Mutant, albino, and hunchback. I love these three and I -think- I've seen them all in-game before, but would they be kosher?

2. Teen. I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate seeing 'teen' in sdescs because, like Sanvean stated in the post LoD quoted, it just seems too slangy and colloquial, also needlessly androgynous unless you're playing an androgynous character. Are these people with 'teen' getting through accidentally like some of the 'girls' I've seen recently or is it actually allowed? :(
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sanvean on March 26, 2008, 02:55:03 PM
Yes, mutant is fine, make sure it matches the main desc. Ditto albino and hunchback.

Teen is allowable because it doesn't lead to the same sort of mistaken play as child.  One of the rules of thumb I use to determine whether or not a word is jarring  is would the word be terribly jarring in a typical fantasy novel. Obviously, there are subtle shades of difference in all sorts of words, and teen may well be one of them.  I would not find it unexpected in most fantasy novels. Many teens are somewhat androgynous.

You are welcome to special app a FORBIDDEN noun and we'll take a look.

Other noun-related problems include nouns than require special code, like a winged person who wants flight coded for them -- or may swear up and down that they won't do that and yet after a couple of months they're starting to say, hey, you know, would it be possible if....? etc.  Nouns that confuse people -- "giant" is one of those, given that we have half-giants in the game.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Incognito on March 26, 2008, 04:55:23 PM
I'd definitely throw in "midget" in the acceptable list :)
I've used it in the past, with a detailed description of his race in the Mdesc, and boy it was fun!
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Jingo on March 26, 2008, 05:31:10 PM
It makes sense now.

Jingo approves.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Southie on March 26, 2008, 06:16:21 PM
Just curious, why is 'breed' unacceptable?
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Barzalene on March 26, 2008, 07:52:49 PM
I'm still protesting lad, lass and maiden, but no one is paying attention. I even made big old sign on sticks, but I don't know where to go to march.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 26, 2008, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: Southie on March 26, 2008, 06:16:21 PM
Just curious, why is 'breed' unacceptable?

Maybe because it's not a noun at all.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Southie on March 26, 2008, 08:37:39 PM
As an abbreviation for halfbreed, I think it is?
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Bluefae on March 26, 2008, 08:39:44 PM
Quote from: LoD on March 26, 2008, 01:18:51 PM

If there are specific words you have questions about, that don't generally fall into one of the categories that she mentions above, perhaps you could mention those?  However, it seems fairly plain to me what the motivations behind disallowing certain nouns has been in the past and likely remains today.

-LoD

     Just so, LoD:  "elfess" and "dwarfess".  Perhaps they don't pass muster simply from sheer cumbersomeness?  While not particularly found of them personally, I can see some merit:  they definitively convey both race and sex, and don't seem nearly as jarring as, say, "dickens-whelp".
     I began to question the difference between "maid" and "maiden", but the former could too easily conflate profession with marital status (neither of which is appropriate for Arm., come to think of it).

Quote from: SanveanYou are welcome to special app a FORBIDDEN noun and we'll take a look.

     Sanvean, you just made my day.   Somehow, I heard a booming, reverberating voice announcing the word FORBIDDEN when I read it.  :D
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 26, 2008, 08:44:47 PM
Quote from: Southie on March 26, 2008, 08:37:39 PM
As an abbreviation for halfbreed, I think it is?
So, slang.   :P

Goes in the FORBIDDEN list with stumpy, longneck, chick, dude, etc.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Morgenes on March 26, 2008, 09:52:13 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 26, 2008, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: Southie on March 26, 2008, 06:16:21 PM
Just curious, why is 'breed' unacceptable?

Maybe because it's not a noun at all.

beg to differ, but m-w.com disagrees with you, a search for 'breed' turns up a verb and a noun option:

breed 
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1553

1 : a group of usually domesticated animals or plants presumably related by descent from common ancestors and visibly similar in most characters

2 : a number of persons of the same stock

3 : class, kind <a new breed of athlete>

[Note: this is not a argument for or against 'breed' used in short-description, mainly just showing it is a noun]
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 26, 2008, 10:58:06 PM
D'oh!

Well... it's not a singular noun, then?
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Tisiphone on March 26, 2008, 11:05:59 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 26, 2008, 10:58:06 PM
D'oh!

Well... it's not a singular noun, then?

'tis a singular noun, but 'tis also collective, I think is what you really mean.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: spicemustflow on March 27, 2008, 06:11:07 AM
Alright, what is the story with dickens-whelp? I keep seeing it all around the place. Did the character have little crutch at least?
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 27, 2008, 09:23:21 AM
Quote from: Tisiphone on March 26, 2008, 11:05:59 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 26, 2008, 10:58:06 PM
D'oh!

Well... it's not a singular noun, then?

'tis a singular noun, but 'tis also collective, I think is what you really mean.
Probably.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Xio on March 27, 2008, 10:37:20 AM
I'm slow with the GDB but uh...yea, I don't find many nouns to be unacceptable for an sdesc because I'd rather you throw a word at me I've never seen before that makes me grab a dictionary and hope you don't backstab me while I'm flipping the pages (yes I still have a dictionary...i think) rather be running around as the tall muscular human. No offense, just bland to me (shrugs and hides)
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: a strange shadow on March 27, 2008, 11:04:28 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on March 27, 2008, 06:11:07 AM
Alright, what is the story with dickens-whelp? I keep seeing it all around the place. Did the character have little crutch at least?

It's from a Baobob comic.. which unfortunately doesn't seem to exist any longer. I tried to link you, honest.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: LoD on March 27, 2008, 11:51:47 AM
Quote from: Bluefae on March 26, 2008, 08:39:44 PM
     Just so, LoD:  "elfess" and "dwarfess".  Perhaps they don't pass muster simply from sheer cumbersomeness?  While not particularly found of them personally, I can see some merit:  they definitively convey both race and sex, and don't seem nearly as jarring as, say, "dickens-whelp".

My own opinion would be that we don't have elfess or dwarfess for the same reason we don't have humaness.  Elf and Dwarf describe the race of the character, not the gender.  Some people may argue that it's unfair someone has to choose between being gender silent (the willowy, emerald-eyed elf) or chew up sdesc space with an obligatory gender noun (the willowy, emerald-eyed elf woman), but I think I would prefer either of those options to allowing strange gender-race nouns elfess, dwarfess, or giantess.

Halflingess, Githess, Muless -- if those don't look right to you, then elfess and dwarfess shouldn't either.

-LoD
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: BlackMagic0 on March 27, 2008, 12:34:58 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on March 27, 2008, 11:04:28 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on March 27, 2008, 06:11:07 AM
Alright, what is the story with dickens-whelp? I keep seeing it all around the place. Did the character have little crutch at least?

It's from a Baobob comic.. which unfortunately doesn't seem to exist any longer. I tried to link you, honest.

Baobob the Kank?

I got them saved.. Somewhere, in a folder.. Lost in my arm massive files upon files of random file-ness...
Perhaps I can dig them up...
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: brytta.leofa on March 27, 2008, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: LoD on March 27, 2008, 11:51:47 AM
Some people may argue that it's unfair someone has to choose between being gender silent (the willowy, emerald-eyed elf) or chew up sdesc space with an obligatory gender noun (the willowy, emerald-eyed elf woman), but I think I would prefer either of those options to allowing strange gender-race nouns elfess, dwarfess, or giantess.

Probably you could get by with "the willowy, emerald-eyed [fe]male" for all the near-humanoids: human, elf, and half-elf.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: BlackMagic0 on March 27, 2008, 10:05:51 PM
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on March 27, 2008, 12:34:58 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on March 27, 2008, 11:04:28 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on March 27, 2008, 06:11:07 AM
Alright, what is the story with dickens-whelp? I keep seeing it all around the place. Did the character have little crutch at least?

It's from a Baobob comic.. which unfortunately doesn't seem to exist any longer. I tried to link you, honest.

Baobob the Kank?

I got them saved.. Somewhere, in a folder.. Lost in my arm massive files upon files of random file-ness...
Perhaps I can dig them up...

I've got ep1 to 22 saved. If you are extremely curious on seeing them spicemustflow?
hehe.. Silly newb dwarfs.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sanvean on March 28, 2008, 03:22:14 PM
Perhaps MasterZ would send us copies of Baobab to be hosted on Ginka.

Breed came too close to slang.

"elfess" is not a word, it's a piece of idiocy. (Sorry, pet peeve, heh).
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Vox on March 28, 2008, 04:21:27 PM
I agree that Elfess and Dwarfess just don't work but I would be remiss if I didn't stir the pot by citing the source of Giantess as being more than acceptable for almost seven centuries..


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
gi·ant·ess      /ˈdʒaɪəntɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jahy-uhn-tis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   an imaginary female being of human form but superhuman size, strength, etc.
2.   any very large woman.
[Origin: 1350–1400; ME geauntesse < OF. See giant, -ess]

And

Modern Language Association (MLA):
"giantess." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 28 Mar. 2008. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/giantess>.

Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: spicemustflow on March 28, 2008, 06:52:45 PM
QuoteI've got ep1 to 22 saved. If you are extremely curious on seeing them spicemustflow?
hehe.. Silly newb dwarfs.

Yeah, I'm curious, if it isn't too much trouble. Who made it? Is it funny?
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sanvean on March 30, 2008, 03:43:19 PM
It's freaking hysterical.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: BlackMagic0 on March 30, 2008, 04:11:11 PM
Quote from: Sanvean on March 30, 2008, 03:43:19 PM
It's freaking hysterical.

I should put them up in a Thread for all to enjoy! Unless.. You simply wish for me to email them to you spicemustflow? Either way does not matter to me.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Bogre on March 30, 2008, 10:03:21 PM
Giantess is legit

I would say keep boy and girl. So what if you have the petite, teal-eyed girl who's really a nilazi. Too bad if you don't kill it...evil in Zalanthas can exist in all sorts of forms. And players shouldn't hesistate to kill children in game, IMO, if its in character.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: brytta.leofa on March 30, 2008, 10:48:03 PM
But the minimum starting age is 13, I believe...which, properly, might be better territory for the much-despised "teen."
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Yam on March 31, 2008, 05:36:21 AM
I lament the loss of girl and boy. Teen and teenager are haltingly awkward in sdescs and evoke images of nubile lolitas and catamites which may not always be the most pertinent connotation to a character.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: spicemustflow on March 31, 2008, 06:24:23 AM
Quote from: Yam on March 31, 2008, 05:36:21 AM
I lament the loss of girl and boy. Teen and teenager are haltingly awkward in sdescs and evoke images of nubile lolitas and catamites which may not always be the most pertinent connotation to a character.

I agree, I felt like a perv playing a "teen". Anyway teen is too earthly a concept IMO, it reminds me of acne, masturbation and fights with my parents. I doubt anybody in Zalanthas gives a shit about your existential crisis and fear of girls and that is exactly what I think of when I see a teen in the game.

Quote from: BlackMagic0 on March 30, 2008, 04:11:11 PM
I should put them up in a Thread for all to enjoy! Unless.. You simply wish for me to email them to you spicemustflow? Either way does not matter to me.

Make a thread, why not. I'm sure more people would like to see it.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Maso on March 31, 2008, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: Yam on March 31, 2008, 05:36:21 AM
I lament the loss of girl and boy.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Tisiphone on March 31, 2008, 12:41:03 PM
Yam, if 'teen' evokes images of catamites and nubile young girls, remind me not to live in your neighbourhood if I ever have children.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Mood on April 01, 2008, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: Tisiphone on March 31, 2008, 12:41:03 PM
Yam, if 'teen' evokes images of catamites and nubile young girls, remind me not to live in your neighbourhood if I ever have children.

Don't hate.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: deconstruct99 on April 07, 2008, 08:14:49 AM
Young man/woman is a pretty good alternative methinks.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: path on April 21, 2008, 05:15:49 PM
They're just long. I miss boy and girl too.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: hyzhenhok on April 23, 2008, 07:25:35 AM
Quote from: path on April 21, 2008, 05:15:49 PM
They're just long.

The adj young man is no longer than The adj, adj boy.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on April 23, 2008, 09:50:48 AM
How about "youth" instead of "teen?"  It's quite a bit less slangy in tone, as well.  "The skinny, dark-haired youth" sounds better than "the skinny, dark-haired teen" to me, anyway.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: mansa on April 23, 2008, 10:48:24 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 23, 2008, 07:25:35 AM
Quote from: path on April 21, 2008, 05:15:49 PM
They're just long.

The adj young man is no longer than The adj, adj boy.

Isn't the short description length 35 characters?

So,
12345678901234567890123456789012345
The 1234567890, 123456-78901234 boy
The 1234567890, 123456-78 young man


By my calculations, you can have 24 characters of uniqueness with BOY, and 18 characters of uniqueness with YOUNG MAN
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 23, 2008, 10:50:46 AM
Heh. We needed calculations to see that 'Boy' is shorter than 'Young man'... Someone give that man a  cookie.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: hyzhenhok on April 28, 2008, 06:54:24 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 23, 2008, 10:48:24 AMIsn't the short description length 35 characters?

So,
12345678901234567890123456789012345
The 1234567890, 123456-78901234 boy
The 1234567890, 123456-78 young man


By my calculations, you can have 24 characters of uniqueness with BOY, and 18 characters of uniqueness with YOUNG MAN

No. Young is a separate adjective. Young is a unique adjective. Characters under the age of 20 are not required to put "young" in their sdescs.

So for your concept for a teenaged character who also happens to be obese, has an enormous beard, a hooked nose, and sparkling green eyes, you have plenty of options besides "young". After all, assess -v will say that he's young, and hopefully your full description also indicates that he is young. So you could make him The obese, bearded young man, the obese, hooked-nosed man, the bearded, green-eyed man, the hooked-nosed young man, etc. etc. Why does age have to take precedence over other physical features, especially if you've written your character where it's not obvious? Young is no less a unique adjective than hooked, bearded, muscled, tall, etc. I see far more "tall," "muscled" and "broad-shouldered" men around than I see "young" men.

Also, if you take issue with using "man" for a teenager, you're using double standard if you think "boy" is a good alternative. If you feel obligated to indicate that your character is a young man in the sdesc, perhaps you should also feel obligated to indicate that your character is a "teenaged boy", and not any younger. Otherwise, you're relying on OOC assumptions which know that the "ugly, chubby boy" is at least 16 years old, because he's probably a PC and PCs can't be under 16. That's just extremely sloppy.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Mood on April 28, 2008, 07:07:49 PM
PCs can be thirteen and older.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: hyzhenhok on April 28, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
Oh damn. I guess that voids my entire argument, doesn't it? Game over, guys. Game over.

::)
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: mansa on April 28, 2008, 08:17:02 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 28, 2008, 06:54:24 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 23, 2008, 10:48:24 AMIsn't the short description length 35 characters?

So,
12345678901234567890123456789012345
The 1234567890, 123456-78901234 boy
The 1234567890, 123456-78 young man


By my calculations, you can have 24 characters of uniqueness with BOY, and 18 characters of uniqueness with YOUNG MAN

No. Young is a separate adjective. Young is a unique adjective. Characters under the age of 20 are not required to put "young" in their sdescs.

So for your concept for a teenaged character who also happens to be obese, has an enormous beard, a hooked nose, and sparkling green eyes, you have plenty of options besides "young". After all, assess -v will say that he's young, and hopefully your full description also indicates that he is young. So you could make him The obese, bearded young man, the obese, hooked-nosed man, the bearded, green-eyed man, the hooked-nosed young man, etc. etc. Why does age have to take precedence over other physical features, especially if you've written your character where it's not obvious? Young is no less a unique adjective than hooked, bearded, muscled, tall, etc. I see far more "tall," "muscled" and "broad-shouldered" men around than I see "young" men.

Also, if you take issue with using "man" for a teenager, you're using double standard if you think "boy" is a good alternative. If you feel obligated to indicate that your character is a young man in the sdesc, perhaps you should also feel obligated to indicate that your character is a "teenaged boy", and not any younger. Otherwise, you're relying on OOC assumptions which know that the "ugly, chubby boy" is at least 13 years old, because he's probably a PC and PCs can't be under 13. That's just extremely sloppy.

I fixed the ages to the correct dates.

I agree that it isn't required to have 'young' in your short description, but when I make characters, I was my short description to describe as much as possible within the 35 characters.  I want to display that my body shape, race, sex, age, as well as a more specific detail that brings me out in a crowd.  That's what I want, and in what order I want them in.  That's what I think is important to be displayed, when I walk down the road.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on April 28, 2008, 10:48:11 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 28, 2008, 08:17:02 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 28, 2008, 06:54:24 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 23, 2008, 10:48:24 AMIsn't the short description length 35 characters?

So,
12345678901234567890123456789012345
The 1234567890, 123456-78901234 boy
The 1234567890, 123456-78 young man


By my calculations, you can have 24 characters of uniqueness with BOY, and 18 characters of uniqueness with YOUNG MAN

No. Young is a separate adjective. Young is a unique adjective. Characters under the age of 20 are not required to put "young" in their sdescs.

So for your concept for a teenaged character who also happens to be obese, has an enormous beard, a hooked nose, and sparkling green eyes, you have plenty of options besides "young". After all, assess -v will say that he's young, and hopefully your full description also indicates that he is young. So you could make him The obese, bearded young man, the obese, hooked-nosed man, the bearded, green-eyed man, the hooked-nosed young man, etc. etc. Why does age have to take precedence over other physical features, especially if you've written your character where it's not obvious? Young is no less a unique adjective than hooked, bearded, muscled, tall, etc. I see far more "tall," "muscled" and "broad-shouldered" men around than I see "young" men.

Also, if you take issue with using "man" for a teenager, you're using double standard if you think "boy" is a good alternative. If you feel obligated to indicate that your character is a young man in the sdesc, perhaps you should also feel obligated to indicate that your character is a "teenaged boy", and not any younger. Otherwise, you're relying on OOC assumptions which know that the "ugly, chubby boy" is at least 13 years old, because he's probably a PC and PCs can't be under 13. That's just extremely sloppy.

I fixed the ages to the correct dates.

I agree that it isn't required to have 'young' in your short description, but when I make characters, I was my short description to describe as much as possible within the 35 characters.  I want to display that my body shape, race, sex, age, as well as a more specific detail that brings me out in a crowd.  That's what I want, and in what order I want them in.  That's what I think is important to be displayed, when I walk down the road.
This is when I think "youth" is an appropriate adjective.  Under 13, "boy" or "girl" would be appropriate; between 13 and, say, 17 or so, I'd still be a little iffy about using "man" or "woman", but "youth" fits.  Of course, it's gender neutral, which causes that issue, but it's no different than "elf" or "dwarf" which are commonly used alone.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Maso on April 29, 2008, 06:34:16 AM
I still call myself 'girl' now (IRL). I miss girl and boy nouns, I really really do.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on April 29, 2008, 08:55:29 AM
Quote from: Maso on April 29, 2008, 06:34:16 AM
I still call myself 'girl' now (IRL). I miss girl and boy nouns, I really really do.
I'm pretty close to 22 and I still consider myself a "boy."  I expect I still will at 30.  Maybe even 40.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: spawnloser on April 29, 2008, 03:26:33 PM
Oh, 'assess' fixes all?  I hardly think so.  The big issue with 'assess' is that you can assess two people and get the same descriptor, that they're a whole heap younger than you... but one would show up to someone of a different race as 'young' and another as 'adult.'  Why do people of the same race get LESS information from the assess command than people of different races?

If 'assess' was fixed so that EVERYONE gets the "...appears (BLAH) for their race" and only people of the same race get the, "...appears (BLAH)-er than you" I would be content.  As it stands, I want people to know that my character appears in their teens without them having to get someone that is 20 to tell them that yes, my character is still 'young.'
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Yam on April 29, 2008, 09:26:37 PM
Boy and girl are desperately needed descriptors.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sokotra on April 29, 2008, 10:26:39 PM
I really don't see what the big deal is.  If someone wants to make a young PC that physically looks like a "boy" or "girl", then so be it.  The staff could always reject the app if someone is trying to get away with something fishy.  Kinda silly... but then again, I was kinda irritated that they changed my "halfbreed" to "half-breed"... silliness I tell you.  I like "halfbreed" better.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Angela Christine on April 29, 2008, 10:42:17 PM
I don't like girl and boy, because they do make me think of little children.




Quote from: Sanvean on March 28, 2008, 03:22:14 PM

"elfess" is not a word, it's a piece of idiocy. (Sorry, pet peeve, heh).


Yeah, everybody knows it should be elfette. 
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: hyzhenhok on April 30, 2008, 01:53:35 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on April 29, 2008, 08:55:29 AM
Quote from: Maso on April 29, 2008, 06:34:16 AM
I still call myself 'girl' now (IRL). I miss girl and boy nouns, I really really do.
I'm pretty close to 22 and I still consider myself a "boy."  I expect I still will at 30.  Maybe even 40.

This is definitely a modern, real-world phenomenon. In the real, modern world, sure, someone under 25 being "still a child" is pretty common, because the threshold for becoming independent is much harder to cross.

In Zalanthas, I seriously doubt than any 16 year old who is out and about making a living on their own would consider themselves "still a child", which is what "boy" and "girl" insinuate. The only thing iffy would be for the 13-15 year olds, but even if you were allowed to be a "boy" or "girl" for such characters, it'd have to be special apped away when they hit 16, 17 and 18, which is pretty quick if they manage to survive.

The fact that in our modern language, "boy" and "girl" can refer to someone between 3 and 25 years old hardly lends credence to it being a good descriptor.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Tisiphone on April 30, 2008, 01:56:34 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 30, 2008, 01:53:35 PM
The fact that in our modern language, "boy" and "girl" can refer to someone between 3 and 25 years old hardly lends credence to it being a good descriptor.

Unless, of course, you wanted to argue that the primary uses of sdescs are to communicate to the players, who do speak the language English, and live in cultures variously defined by it.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sokotra on April 30, 2008, 02:06:15 PM
And that it describes how they look, physically, rather than their forced state of mental maturity in a harsh world.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Maso on April 30, 2008, 02:09:37 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on April 30, 2008, 01:56:34 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 30, 2008, 01:53:35 PM
The fact that in our modern language, "boy" and "girl" can refer to someone between 3 and 25 years old hardly lends credence to it being a good descriptor.

Unless, of course, you wanted to argue that the primary uses of sdescs are to communicate to the players, who do speak the language English, and live in cultures variously defined by it.

'Nuff said. Give it back. I do not call myself a 'girl' because I consider myself to be a child, but because I imagine a 'woman' as someone a lot older and more mature, perhaps married with kids. If I meet a guy in a bar he's not gonna go and tell his mates he met an interesting woman, he'd say girl.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: hyzhenhok on April 30, 2008, 02:16:56 PM
Quote from: Sokotra on April 30, 2008, 02:06:15 PM
And that it describes how they look, physically, rather than their forced state of mental maturity in a harsh world.

...no, it doesn't.

"Boy" and "girl" tells you nothing that a more specific, allowable term could. In modern English, a "boy" and a "girl" can be between 3 and 25 years old. How does that describe anything?

Not to mention, since we're getting into semantics, "boy" and "girl" in a modern sense is almost an entirely mental term. Great, you've told me your character's gender. You've told me nothing else. At all. You're obviously trying to refer to your character's age, because otherwise you would have used "male" or "female." The problem is that they don't in any way at all help specify the character's age. Youth, teen and teenager are all much better words when it comes to that respect. If you think "boy" and "girl" are synonyms to "teen," you've again fallen into the trap of sloppy OOC assumptions.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: hyzhenhok on April 30, 2008, 02:18:42 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 30, 2008, 02:09:37 PM
'Nuff said. Give it back. I do not call myself a 'girl' because I consider myself to be a child, but because I imagine a 'woman' as someone a lot older and more mature, perhaps married with kids. If I meet a guy in a bar he's not gonna go and tell his mates he met an interesting woman, he'd say girl.

The use of the term depends on context. All of these contexts don't really have a place when used in an sdesc, which is supposed to be a general, multi-purpose description.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Maso on April 30, 2008, 02:20:08 PM
What about guy and girl? To me this insinuates the same as young man and young woman but is not so character demanding.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sokotra on April 30, 2008, 02:28:39 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 30, 2008, 02:16:56 PM
Quote from: Sokotra on April 30, 2008, 02:06:15 PM
And that it describes how they look, physically, rather than their forced state of mental maturity in a harsh world.

...no, it doesn't.

"Boy" and "girl" tells you nothing that a more specific, allowable term could. In modern English, a "boy" and a "girl" can be between 3 and 25 years old. How does that describe anything?

Not to mention, since we're getting into semantics, "boy" and "girl" in a modern sense is almost an entirely mental term. Great, you've told me your character's gender. You've told me nothing else. At all. You're obviously trying to refer to your character's age, because otherwise you would have used "male" or "female." The problem is that they don't in any way at all help specify the character's age. Youth, teen and teenager are all much better words when it comes to that respect. If you think "boy" and "girl" are synonyms to "teen," you've again fallen into the trap of sloppy OOC assumptions.

Hmm.. Yeah, I see how - in modern english - that "boy" or "girl" is only describing gender, but still that is only in certain circumstances if you really think about it.  Honestly, I think that when used in a sdesc in Zalanthas that it is almost 100% of the time going to be leading one to think of someone in their early teens or younger.   And I'm pretty sure that is how it is and was meant to be used.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 30, 2008, 02:29:09 PM
Not sure if this has been brought up before in this thread or not... but I believe one reason the staff took away "boy" and "girl" is the same reason why they disallowed characters under 13.  These characters (those under 13 or with "boy" or "girl" in their sdesc) were often being played like spoiled, immature, helpless Earth children.  I think that's much harder to get away with when your emotes always echo "man" or "woman".
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Angela Christine on April 30, 2008, 03:03:08 PM
Quote from: Maso on April 30, 2008, 02:20:08 PM
What about guy and girl? To me this insinuates the same as young man and young woman but is not so character demanding.

I can't see allowing "guy" either. 

The tall, muscular guy
The brown-haired, blue-eyed guy
The gaunt, pale guy

Is there any example where "guy" would be more appropriate than "man"? 





I hope some of the races in A2 have masculine and feminine forms, like man and woman, at least for races where anyone would care about the sex.  It has always irked me that if you say dwarf, elf, giant, etc., without mentioning gender many players will assume that the character is male by default.  So a male charcter can be "the <> elf" but a female character has to be "the <> female elf".  It isn't fair that females should need to waste extra sdesc space, while males do not.

The inequity could easily be solved with something like:


Simple, easy, fair.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Maso on April 30, 2008, 03:15:08 PM
I think people misplaying 13-16 yr old 'children' is no different from people misplaying ANY type of character. Which is always possible. I personally met plenty of young girl/boy characters before the 'ban' and I didn't meet any that were played like helpless young earth children. However the mentality of a 13 yr old is always going to be less immature than a 21 yr old. However, the difference I believe between Earth and Zalanthian kids is that the Zalanthian ones feel the need to ACT like adults.

However, a 13 yr old girl is definately NOT a young woman. A 13 yr old female is a girl and there is no question in my mind about that. Despite how worldly, mature and hardworking she may be she is still a GIRL. She probably hasn't finished puberty, she probably doesn't even have breasts.

I recently met a few times with a character who I now believe was only 13/14. However the sdesc said 'young man' and for the entirety of the time I was playing with him I assumed him to be about 20, right up until he said how old he was. Now, I had read his mdesc and it probably did hint, but I tend to scan and build an image in my head quite quickly. I also had assessed, but because my character was quite old this did not help very much. After that I found his sdesc to be jarring to me, because it kept telling me he was a young man, and I had to keep reminding myself he was a 13 yr old boy.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Angela Christine on April 30, 2008, 03:24:27 PM
We only get a limited number of sdesc changes (2 or so?) so it isn't great to put your age in your sdesc anyway.  Unless you are one of those players (like me) who has trouble keeping a PC alive for more than a month or two.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Maso on April 30, 2008, 03:30:10 PM
I'm sure if you lived long enough to span boy to man to old man then the staff would probably let you get away with a third.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Sokotra on April 30, 2008, 04:12:09 PM
Yeah.. so.. a lot of us think "girl" and "boy" (for teens and younger) works better in zalanthas than "young man" or "young woman".  I think "teen" is a little jarring myself, as well.   I still don't see the problem.   Like Maso said, people misplaying 13-16 yr old "children" is no different from people misplaying ANY other type of character.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: NoteworthyFellow on April 30, 2008, 05:19:54 PM
Quote from: Angela Christine on April 30, 2008, 03:24:27 PM
We only get a limited number of sdesc changes (2 or so?) so it isn't great to put your age in your sdesc anyway.  Unless you are one of those players (like me) who has trouble keeping a PC alive for more than a month or two.

Oooh!  Me!  Me!  That's me!  She's talking about me!

Most of my players tend to be of an age where "young <gendered pronoun>" would be the appropriate noun for their sdescs, mostly because I always find it tricky to rationalize an older character being so damn inept.  Any mature/old characters I make tend to be the type to not rely on coded skills as a result.  So, I'm getting used to using "young man" and "young woman" in my sdescs.  For characters age 13-16 or so, I tend to use "youth," but that being gender neutral sometimes provides a slight issue.  Then again, "half-elf," "elf," "dwarf," and so on are also gender neutral, so I suppose that's not a huge deal.

Younger than 13 (which is, of course, special app) should absolutely be "boy" or "girl," though.  And I'd personally be okay with characters younger than 15 or so having those pronouns as well.

Speaking of sdesc changes, why the arbitrary limit?  If there has to be one, I'd like maybe one or two more changes allowed, just to allow for massive, physically-altering events that might not be foreseeable.  I mean, what is one to do if, say, one has changed sdesc (and mdesc) twice already, to reflect a character's aging, and then that character, say, is burned all over in a horrible fire with no magickal healing to make them 100% new?  Covering them in coded burn scars is one thing, but it should definitely be reflected in their descriptions.  It isn't as though players can do this at will, anyway--it always has to go through the staff.  A limit on how often it can be done could help avoid a flood of such requests, as well, just like with special apps.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Tisiphone on April 30, 2008, 05:42:56 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on April 30, 2008, 05:19:54 PM
Speaking of sdesc changes, why the arbitrary limit?

The reason for the limit is to help lessen the load on staff, specifically Highlords, who have a lot of work to do already. The reason for it being two is that over the life of a character you're unlikely to need more than that.

Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on April 30, 2008, 05:19:54 PM
...just to allow for massive, physically-altering events that might not be foreseeable.  I mean, what is one to do if, say, one has changed sdesc (and mdesc) twice already, to reflect a character's aging, and then that character, say, is burned all over...

Exceptional circumstances are yet another reason why we have human staff taking care of tasks like this; judgement calls can be made for those exceptions.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: FantasyWriter on October 18, 2008, 12:31:47 AM
Quote from: mansa on April 23, 2008, 10:48:24 AM

Isn't the short description length 35 characters?



Is it?  I would like to know, please.
Title: Re: The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs
Post by: Archbaron on October 18, 2008, 12:54:31 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on October 18, 2008, 12:31:47 AM
Quote from: mansa on April 23, 2008, 10:48:24 AM

Isn't the short description length 35 characters?



Is it?  I would like to know, please.
Yes. It is 35 characters.