Hi. A month or so ago, in this thread:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17459
Naiona ask for people's opinions on Tuluk. Now, I've always been very opinionated on this subject, so I quickly began writing my reply. Unfortunately, I got lazy, and never finished. I only answered the first question, but I answered it in, like, 700 words. So before I delete this from my computer, I thought I'd share it on the boards. Hopefully some will find it thought-provoking, not incendiary. Being incendiary was totally not my goal. I'm just a guy that wants to voice his opinion despite missing the deadline.
Enjoy.
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1) I OOCly dislike playing in this area because: Simply put, Tuluk doesn't feel like Zalanthas to me. I always viewed Zalanthan city-states as low-tech, brutal theocracies where literacy, free thought and scientific discovery are suppressed or unavailable. Tuluk and Allanak have many similarities. They both have slavery, largely illiterate populations, Sorcerer-Kings and Templars, noble house, and, most importantly, they are both very low-tech.
But for some reason, Tuluk seems to be much more "culturally advanced" than Allanak, despite almost identical restrictions to free speech and science. It seems unrealistic to me, or at the very least, "un-Zalanthan".
Now, Tuluk, as you Imms envisioned it, might not be superior to Allanak in art or culture, but this is how it seems. Tuluk's "refinement" and advanced cultural status, whether it is illusion or reality, stems from the extensive documentation on Tuluki traditions, like the Bards of Poet's Circle or the caste tattoos. Allanak, on the other hand, has very little to no documentation on their artistic traditions. There is a "Tuluki Roleplay" document, for example, with no corresponding "Allanaki Roleplay" document. The result is that it seems like Tuluk simply has "better" art, or "more" art, or a "more refined" populace.
This disparity in cultural definition (though it might just be a disparity in documentation), combined with the notably "less harsh" environment around Tuluk makes Tuluk feel like a completely different game than Allanak. First, let me qualify my statement about Tuluk having a "less harsh" environment. Tuluk has what I think is a better-developed ecosystem, giving it the appearance of less harshness. The common argument is that Allanak has mekillots, while Tuluk has bahamets, two creatures that could easily kill off most PCs, so the two cities are equally harsh. It's true, both the Northlands and Vrun Driath have "big nasties" capable of killing anyone, both have a risk of starvation or dehydration, both have region-specific pitfalls. The Northlands is "less harsh", however, because of its better-developed ecosystem. The Northlands contains creatures that are not immediately fatal to a newbie character, such as gurth, vestric, and goudra. The closest thing Allanak has to this is the occasional wayward jozhal. Allanak is more harsh than Tuluk simply because a 0-day ranger based in Tuluk has a minimal chance of survival, while a 0-day ranger based in Allanak has virtually no chance of survival on their own.
I do not, however, think this is a bad thing. Tuluk's "balanced" ecosystem is actually my favorite part of the area, its saving grace, if you will. The problem is that Allanak should have the same level of detail, for the sake of realism if nothing else.
Tuluk appears "more cultured" than Allanak due to documentation dealing specifically with Tuluk's art world. Tuluk appears "less harsh" than Allanak due to a more balanced ecosystem. The end result is that Tuluk seems far-removed from Allanak, and even Zalanthas itself. I find it absolutely mind-boggling, and a touch unrealistic, that Tuluk could retain its cultural values (with such specifics as caste tattoos and bardic tradition) during years of oppression, in a harsh desert climate, with a largely illiterate populace. In fact, not only did Tuluk retain these values, but they somehow managed to surpass Allanak in terms of cultural and artistic achievement during a very short span of time. Personally, if I was a Tuluki official, and my city was in ruins after years of oppression under a foreign power, I'd of used that stone for building roads, not commissioning statues... but I guess we should chalk that one up to the average Tuluki's fervent appreciation of the arts.
In conclusion, Tuluk currently seems, from both an IC and OOC standpoint, "better" than Allanak. It seem like a completely different game, as if Tuluk is to Allanak as Athens is to Sparta. Or, to risk exaggeration, Tuluk is to Allanak as the Renaissance was to the Dark Ages. While I understand the need to make Tuluk different from Allanak, I think those differences should have roots in realistic, IC reasons. And I don't think those differences should be engineered in a way that makes Tuluk appear more attractive or better-developed. Tuluk and Allanak should have uniquely different styles of art, instead of one city having "more" art or "better" art. I have seen some attempt to give Allanak its own, unique, relatively "equal" artistic style, but I would like to see more of it.
I decided I'd give my highly educated, well thought opinion on this matter as soon as I saw the title of the thread.
Tuluk rocks. :D
I love Tuluk by far better than Allanak. I mean, there -has- to be some difference in the two city-states, if not, what would be the point in having two different city-states? If Tuluk and Allanak were exactly alike, I would hope the Imm's would completely take one of them completely out of Arm because of that. I like having the option of playing in TWO completely DIFFERENT areas of the world. But, then again, maybe my opinion of liking Tuluk better is because I'm still new here, heh. And only on my second PC, but I played for a RL year in Tulukon my first PC and seemed to have gathered alot about it and seem to like it ALOT. Only time will tell I guess which city-state I truely like over the other.
I've never played in Tuluk. I had two characters go there, but never really interact with the locals much. That said, I think the fact that it's vastly different from Allanak (and the rest of the game world) is a good thing and I look forward to getting to be a newb again upon making a northern character.
I don't neccesarily think its illogical for Tuluk to be more culturaly and artisticly "advanced" than Allanak, though. From my understanding, ever since the occupation the city's leaders have spent a great deal of time, effort, and money on music and art to differentiate themselves from the South. Allanak's leaders, however, don't really have any pressure to change or develop anti-Tuluk counter-culture.
I would love to see more documentation about Allanaki culture, art, etc.
'nakki culture as it stands really does boil down to "don't piss off the templars."
Moe - I'm with you.
But possibly for different logic.
I also agree with the others that there need to be culturally different cities.
But I think that the Tuluk cultural difference is... irritating on a good day.
PLEASE don't make Allanak all artistic and full of bards... Even if I like the 'naki songs much better.
Tuluk could be different without being like it is today... It's a city where most shops are build in hut... I'd love to see tuluk turn into a place that's more influenced by their tribal surroundings.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"I would love to see more documentation about Allanaki culture, art, etc.
'nakki culture as it stands really does boil down to "don't piss off the templars."
I have to agree with the above sentiment; I've noticed that Tuluki society
seems far more complex and detailed than Allanaki society. I would like
to see more docs on the latter.
Now, my opinion is probably a bit biased because Allanak was where I started my first character who lived nearly two months. But my current character lives in Tuluk, and I like Allanak better because:
(Note that these are my opinions, not claimed facts)
- Allanak is rougher. People are more mean, templars hate you, and they don't mind telling it to your face. You have to make an effort out of behaving correctly around them, or there will be consequences. In Tuluk, it seems that people are more friendly, nobles and templars hang out with the lowliest commoners in the Sanctuary, and to me it leaves less opportunity for "social layers" RP, which I enjoyed very much in Allanak. It also seems to me that there is surprisingly little interaction between nobility/templarate and commoners in Tuluk compared to in Allanak.
- Tuluk has one hot-spot where everybody are. It seems to me that Tuluki players spend all their time either in the Sun King's Sanctuary, or in their private quarters/barracks/estates. I've been in Tuluk for nearly two weeks, and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've met someone outside of this tavern, who weren't just speedwalking from their clanhall to the gates or the Sanctuary. Everything seems to happen there, and nothing seems to happen anywhere else. Only one single time, in two weeks, have I met another PC in one of the other taverns. This also means that I'm forced to be there if I want to meet players. In Allanak, there's the Barrel, the Gaj, the Trader's, the Arena, and you can often meet people in the bazaar. Maybe I just haven't found the other places in Tuluk yet, but I have been looking, without finding anything.
- Life seems easier in Tuluk. Stuff is dirt cheap compared to Allanak, its surrounding wilderness is much safer (or so it seems to me) and I have yet to meet any "evil" characters (such as 'rinthers in Allanak). People are nicer, the environment is much more gentle, and food and water costs so much less than it does in Allanak. It doesn't portray Zalanthas' harshness and struggle like I personally think it should.
- Allanak seems more like a city to me. Tuluk is made of square blocks, separated by long, straight roads. The setup is rubbish (in my opinion), with the Poets' Circle close to the gates, and located as far away from the hot-spot as it could be. Allanak just seems to have more life, there's more little details like rooftops, alleys and things that make it seem like people live there. Interesting little out-of-the-way places, which I haven't seen in Tuluk at all.
It would be nice if Allanak had more depth in its arts and music and general philosophies.
Tuluk strikes me as fake. It is, IMO, worse than the old Tuluk in layout and while I appreciate the depth and effort that has gone into creating the culture of Tuluk, it just don't work.
It doesn't work because focusing on the culture of Tuluk has made Tuluk seem stronger and some how magickally better than Allanak - as if the people are smarter or something.
This isn't the case (yet).
What really needs to be done is several folks (I nominate me for one) need to sit down and hash out the culture and philosophy of the south. We need to define it well and in contrast with Tuluk (to keep the current theme of polar opposites).
Now that I think of it - one of the problems with Tuluk is that it seems to have been built around (literally) bards and the bardic circle. Doing this has removed any sense of desperate struggle for the PCs and probably the NPCs.
I mean - if you can concentrate so much focus on the arts, you are obviously not spending that effort on survival. For great artistry and learning, you need great prosperity. Great prosperity doesn't really fit in with the whole "apocalyptic theme."
Now, when the armies of the black city swarm the North and butcher every man, woman and child, THEN there will be some real Zalanthan feel.
When the bards have to go underground and play in secrete their national anthems of old....then you'll have music worth hearing. Then you'll have poems worth repeating.
Until then - it feels too much like Harshlands (which I don't play, never have played and only threw out there because for the five minutes I did long it, I remember feeling like I was hanging out in Tuluk).
:-D
And don't get me wrong. I understand and appreciate the immense work that staff has put into Tuluk. It just don't work for me, which I guess is fine, since someone has to populate Allanak.
:-D
So, if you don't like Tuluk...
who's forcing you to play there?
There's good reason for things to be the way things are in Tuluk. The city has basically been destroyed twice, and so they've had to rebuild several times. Allanak was just built up and around, so of course the city would be laid out more helter skelter-- it hasn't been destroyed. Tuluk was built up again, and with city planning. Though, I must agree that I don't like the location of the Poet's Circle.
It's obviously going to be a much easier place to live because of the resources they have-- it's cooler, there's a forest, etc etc. That's just the geography of Zalanthas.
Tuluk has a lot of tribal influence, but it's been formed into a city. The love of art is still there. With art comes knowledge. The people of Tuluk have more access to knowledge than they would in Allanak. With knowledge comes sophistication. Commoners may not be very smart-- but they're obviously going to be more cultured than 'rinth rats.
Having just one hot spot may not be realistic, but some people like to have at least a little playability. I don't have to go all over hell and half of Georgia to find someone to play around with. And for those of you who don't like the way that the Way is used so commonly-- doesn't having one accessible spot help decrease the use of the Way?
Stuff is cheap because it's more available. Wood is very available in the North. The Northerners trade a good bit with the Tribals, you'd figure. People are taught crafting trades.
Also, the city-states are MEANT to be completely different. Tuluk would want to be as far from anything resembling Allanak, especially after the Occupation. Also, people are always talking about playerbase, playerbase, playerbase. With Tuluk and Allanak being so different, we can attract two different kinds of players (along witht he players who like both). I at least would never consider Arm if it wasn't for Tuluk, and there must be at least a handful of others out there like me.
To the above poster:
I'm giving Tuluk a chance because that's where my current character is, and killing her off because I OOCly don't like the city as much as Allanak would be incredibly poor RP. Also, I've met friends and joined a clan which I don't want to just leave.
Note that I didn't say that Tuluk sucks and should be changed to what I think it should be. I merely stated the reasons why I like Allanak better. The only thing that I truly dislike to the extent of considering never playing in Tuluk again with future characters, is the fact that there seems to be absolutely nothing at all going on anywhere but the Sun King's Sanctuary. Could very well be that I'm just missing out on things, but that's what I have experienced.
First off, bardess: Breathe.
This thread is not a "Tuluk suxxors" exchange, we're just examining some
basic differences between the two playing locations.
I myself like the concepts behind both cities, though I really do think that
the documentation for Tuluk is better. I would like to see detailed docs on
all of the locations found in the Known World. Yes, even Cenyr.
That said, my own personal favorite place in the game is...Red Storm.
Don't laugh.
The "you" was for everyone in general, and your post just seemed to make the most points, Hymwen.
Also, to me, there's a line. There's good RP, but if I absolutely dread the place or the game, I'm not goign to stay there in order to be a "good RPer". There's a line between playability and realism, just like there is playability and good RP.
I also never said you wanted to force those changes on Tuluk, I'm just backing up why things are the way they are. I also never said I liked the way things are in Tuluk-- just why they are what they are.
Tuluk sucks.
Ow! Ow! Stop that!
Tuluk is the 1980's MacOS of Armageddon.
Well, to say the truth, I'm actually glad this topic was brought up again. For awhile, I've had a strong preference for Allanak, with all of its brutality and harshness and sheer difficulty that daily life can be there, the hallmarks of Armageddon that many would say. On the other side of the Known World lies Tuluk, with their bardic culture and arts. Now that I've had a chance to play both Tuluk and Allanak though, I'm finding that there are many characteristics unique to both Allanak and Tuluk that, when compined, make Armageddon perfect for almost any kind of roleplayer, while at the same time giving it the Zalanthan feeling.
If you don't get anything out of this post, my main point is that if Tuluk is played as it is intended to be played, the enjoyability one has in Tuluk can rival that of Allanak.
A few things I'll briefly compare:
Public Order, Culture, Environement, Criminal Front
Public Order:
In Allanak, public order is maintained almost entirely through fear. The templarate and the militia rule the streets and alleys through intimidation, bullying, and pain, amongst other things, all the while keeping the majority of the common populace in a beaten state by limiting water and making the ordeal of living a simple hell. After all, if they're too weak and afraid, the level and amount of rebellion can be easily controlled. Through a PC's perspective, that makes it the perfect environment to give you that Zalanthan feeling of harshness, keeping your character on their toes and constantly on alert. It'll also keep your character busy avoiding detection, finding a way to survive, and even allowing you to be on the other side of the perspective, being the one to bully and dish out the pain.
Tuluk, on the other hand, holds their public order by having the populace feel safe, content, and relatively happy (distracted) enough that they don't even want to rise up. Since known magickers will die almost on sight, people are more able to relax without having to worry about what the gemmer in table right next to you will do. Also, the bards and music keep them occupied and content, despite the intense workload of the day. And, with those who are in power seemingly willing to help them, and bring them peace, the populace don't have much to fear in their nobility unless they mess up. In a player's perspective, it makes life easier for your character, freeing up your time abit to enjoy the social aspect of playing instead of having to worry about living and feeding your character, or avoiding torture and the like.
Culture:
The culture between the two city states sets the two apart almost as much as how they maintain public order. For Allanak, the brutality of the weather and heat forms their clothing styles, daily habits, and layout of buildings. In Tuluk, due to the easier weather and abundance of resources compared to the south, they are more vibrant and colorful. For players in Tuluk, it allows them to be imaginitive and express themselves through their characters more easily than in Allanak, while players in allanak really wouldn't have to worry about what to wear since what is worn is already necessary for the weather conditions.
Environment:
The northern environment is, undoubtably, more easier than the southern environment. Yet, because of the weather and layout of the land and culture, how the environment is suited to the city-state, or rather, the city-state suites the environment. For Allanak, since it -is- the desert, there is little to be found for a hunter to make a living unless your up for the big game. Even in that case, your hunter would be based almost solely in the city anyways. For players, that focuses them in the city, which already has so many different aspects to it that not having much to do outside the gates doesn't affect playability all that much. (Allanak has the rinth after all, what more can you ask for. :wink: ) Players in Tuluk, on the other hand, (to make up for their lack of a labyrinth :D ) are more geared to making a living off the environment, as there are more hunters and crafters available there.
Criminal Front:
In Allanak, hands down, has a much more ellaborate criminal front currently, in terms of players due to the presence of the labyrinth. It's a haven for those who are willing to play the cut-throats and swindlers, any character concept that deals with the lower levels of civilization can be fitted into the rinth. Now, for crime in Tuluk, this is one area about that city-state that I think could use abit more development, but anyways, because of the licenses that thieves can take, and the fact that assassinations can be ordained/accepted, it makes almost anyone a potential thief or a potential assassin. Your neighbor player could be an assassin hired to kill you, as well as the barmaid that is serving you. Even without having a rinth, Tuluk is almost just as dangerous as Allanak because of that aspect. (Despite this, it seems the playerbase hasn't taken much to the fact that anyone can be a thief or assassin. Though this is off-topic abit, I think using that part of the Tuluki culture more would do an infinite amount of good for players there, whether sanction more assassinations/thefts or whatnot)
So, while you as a player have the option to choose which place is more better or not, the city-states are there to be geared for a wide variety of people. Which city-state you like is likely dependant upon what you are looking to get out of Armageddon, , the current role, but in either area, it's likely you can get just as much excitement as playing in the opposite area.
*all based upon my own opinion and observations, so in no way are the things mentioned fact or decided upon unless its specifically stated in the docs.
I really like the last poster's viewpoint, and I'd like to add also that I think that Tuluk, whether or not it fits in with your view of Zalanthas, is a dangerous place. You really have no sort of idea of the things that go on, and it's not all undercover. It's right there on the surface, just not nessessarily in your face.
Tuluk, is, I think, just a little more Newbie friendly than is Allanak, and you know what? I think that is good. Yes, the city is too spread out, and some things are not where they logically should be, but you know what? Cities from one side of a state to the next are different in the real world too. If you really think it's that easy to live up North, if you really just don't like it, then don't live there. But it fills the spot for some folks, so I really think this over-analyzation of the Tuluki culture and it's position in the world we play in should stop.
It fits, and it belongs.
Visibly, Tuluk is a piece of art whereas Allanak is the type of place I wouldn't be surprised to find Fido the Dog NPCs running around. Allanak still has a feel of the bad old days and is in horrible need of OOC rennovation. If you look hard enough, you can still find NPCs who have descriptions which practically read:
A tall, gaunt elf
This elf is tall and gaunt. He looks very mean. I wouldn't mess with him if I were you.
A tall, gaunt elf is in excellent condition.
Where the average item in Allanak is reads 'a red hide cloak', Tuluk's equivalent would be 'a blazing-red cloak of supple leather'. Tuluk has clearly been made for today's generation of players who wish for in-depth description. Allanak still has the feel of a stock Diku MUD in many respects. In Allanak's favor, however, I will say that it is an excellent place for noble plot and intrigue.
My only qualms with Tuluk are the unrealistic changes. Like how the ruins once stood, literally, 2 rooms away from the Sun King's Sanctuary and now they stand more than 30 rooms away. Or how this so-called "ancient" custom of caste tattoos is said to have always been around when it most definitely has not. I played a Jihaen templar in Old Tuluk in the early 90's as well as many other Tulukis. Even though tattoos weren't coded then they were still common in a character's main description and I can say with absolute certainty that there was no such custom of tattoos back then. It would have been better to have simply started it as a NEW custom to represent NEW Tuluk, rather than lie by saying this custom has always been around. I also think Tuluk possesses far more wood than is realistic, even for the Northlands. Wood is a resource in the North, but Zalanthas is still a wasted, withering world. The amount of wood required to make city walls and entire buildings all from timber would likely wipe out a good portion of the Grey Forest, not to mention infuriate a nation of savage, man-eating halflings. Trees don't grow back that fast, so I think the longer Tuluk relies on wood as part of their economy, the more the Grey Forest should be seen to diminish.
Despite this, I think Tuluk far outshines Allanak in terms of appearance. Furthermore, I've lost many a character in that city and think it's an ignorant statement to say it's any less harsh. The geography of the North is more lush, but the city does not rely on magick as Allanak does, so it evens out in some respects. It's SUPPOSED to be a slightly gentler climate (and I use the word slightly sparingly). Besides, just because Tuluk is a haven for the arts doesn't assume it's a happy-go-lucky free-willed society where everyone has fun and nothing bad happens. Believe it or not, boys and girls, but art and conflict CAN co-exist.
Yeah, bards kill each other up north so that they can be the winner without the scary competition.
I love that shit.
Bards are not just about singing.
You know, I was thinking about it the other day, how so many Northern characters seem to be about trying to be a bard, and when I drew a real-life comparison, it's sorta like my old block, where every other youngster wanted to be a rapper or NBA star, me included. It's an obssession and a serious part of the culture there, so it really does fit in.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Yeah, bards kill each other up north so that they can be the winner without the scary competition.
PCs actually do this? I've wanted to do this for a while, but I'm surprised the "tree hugging hippy Tulukies" PCs are actually doing it ;)
Basically, there's not enough treachery in Tuluk. Far more people need to 'disappear' than they do, as this isn't something that just the Templarite do.
Tuluk needs far more assassins, and far more thieves, and far more dead people. So stop playing middle-class merchant types that get on with everyone, and start playing villainous bastards. If you see the slightest advantage in having someone disappear, even if it's just not having to look at their face anymore, hire an assassin. PLEASE!
Quote from: "Pantoufle"
Where the average item in Allanak is reads 'a red hide cloak', Tuluk's equivalent would be 'a blazing-red cloak of supple leather'. Tuluk has clearly been made for today's generation of players who wish for in-depth description.
the sesquipedalian agafari-eyed man gets a small portion of a mouldy piece of baked dry brown wheat hardbread from a green tassled, gray fringed leather and sandcloth beltpouch.
Yep. They sure do.
I'm on the fence about Tuluk. To be honest, I haven't played there much, and I have had a lot of fun when I have. There are aspects that I like and don't like about the city, though I could say the same about Allanak.
I find Tuluk to be a strange mixture of interesting, indepth ideas and off the top of someone's head, illogical cultural idiosyncrasies.
I love the massive hate and immediate violence responses that are cultural to Tuluk. It makes sense and makes sekrit magickers all the more dangerous and interesting up North. I like the difference in landscape. It makes for a refreshing change of pace, much as we may love Allanak's bone dry desert. The art and musical side of Tuluk, while perhaps a bit over the top for Zalanthas, also offer a different aspect to gaming and roleplaying around Tuluk. I like what one of the previous posters said about Tuluk being more about keeping its people (relatively) happy and safe to keep them under control. It's a nice change, since, at times, Allanak's grittiness feels gritty for the sake of having grit.
I do, however, feel Tuluk is too similar to Allanak. Not that it is constructed or described the same, or even has the same feel. However, it has a very similar arrangement of noble houses, though some of the rules and ideas are different (Disclaimer: I have not worked especially close with Tuluki nobles). It also has a templarate that serves to keep citizens under control, as well as to protect the city. Granted, people vanish instead of being thrown in the arena, but it's all the same in the end. I've never understood why they maintain so many similarities to Allanak. It seems, in all of their attempts to be different and seperate, that some of these would have faded away or, more likely, changed masks and at least pretended to play a different role under a different name.
Also, I don't particularly like the artist thief/assassin business. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool idea and I'm sure it's fun gameplay, but I have trouble believing it. It's never really made sense to me. Maybe I haven't played closely enough with these circles, or maybe I missed an important helpfile somewhere. Or maybe I should just shut up and enjoy the fact that it can lead to fun plots and characters. :) Whatever the case, it never really clicked with me.
Jihaen and Lirathan Templars are seperated by sex, if I'm not mistaken. While I'm not a big fan of the total gender equality of Zalanthas, I feel it should be consistant. You could not place all male mercenaries in one unit of the T'Zai Byn and all the females in another without raising some issues about following the rules and structures of the world.
All of that said and done, I have enjoyed playing in Tuluk, so I don't have any complaints that aren't personal nitpicks. For now, I think I prefer the south, but, hey, bunny-hugging might grow on me.
Quote from: "Pantoufle"Visibly, Tuluk is a piece of art whereas Allanak is the type of place I wouldn't be surprised to find Fido the Dog NPCs running around. Allanak still has a feel of the bad old days and is in horrible need of OOC rennovation. If you look hard enough, you can still find NPCs who have descriptions which practically read:
A tall, gaunt elf
This elf is tall and gaunt. He looks very mean. I wouldn't mess with him if I were you.
A tall, gaunt elf is in excellent condition.
If you see an npc with a description like that, use the typo command please, because I sure don't see that in Allanak anywhere - but perhaps I've missed it.
Yeah, I agree about the gender equality thing in that it is pushed too hard, I think, overall. It's pushed so hard at times by both the staff and many players that those players that want to make dainty damsels are literally discouraged too, and I can't say I like that. I play manly men, and I like dainty damsels. I also like the females (or males) that play the gritty women, too.
I also agree about the thief or assassin being celebrated. I don't like the idea that a thief or assassin could ever become a celebrated figure, whether he publicly acknowledges that he is or not. What I do think is that the skill itself with which the crime was commited should be the celebrated thing. I do understand the registering for these professions. It amounts to a pre-bribe, basically. I mean, you can still get in trouble, but you'll face less stiff penalties.
I could see the following conversation.
"Did you hear that Amos got robbed again last night?"
"Fuck, again? I thought he hired a couple of security persons for his House."
"He did! Two bigass fellows, he did. The thief musta climbed in a back window. He made off with Amos' most valuable vase."
"Wow, that took some talent. He's good, isn't he, to evade our Faithful so long? I hope -I- don't get robbed. I may have to take my gold dagger of +10 dragon slaying down to Nenyuk this afternoon. I can't have -that- missing."
"I'll drink to that."
To me, that would be celebration enough. I just can't see them having the same conversation and adding in that they wish they were him and the honor of being robbed by such a master and such.
Anyone ever read some Dicworld novels, the part where they talk about the Assassin guild in Ank-Morpork and the thieves that rob people but can only make a certain amoun of money per year and don'T rob anyone twice withtin a period of time?
That one isn't serious enough for arm, but he also gives sme reasons on why the system works and how it works - the Tuluki attitude towards thieves and assassins ould be somewhat like that, respected professins as long as you don't get caught..
Let me do my standard thing.... just countering some of the many arguments I've heard.
If you don't like it, don't play there. Gladly. But as much as I love to close my eyes, hum, and pretend half of the game-world doesn't exist, it tends to cause some problems for me ICly. Like, for example, when my soldier character is stationed there for several IC years.
Tuluk needs to be different than Allanak. I'm aware of that. My post was not saying "make Tuluk exactly like Allanak". I was simply stating that I didn't like some of the changes made to Tuluk. Also, as one poster said, I think Allanak needs to be better defined than "Allanak is not Tuluk".
Tuluk's differences give players a chance to play in an environment different from Allanak. Choices are a good thing. Understandable, but I still think that some of Tuluk's differences are unrealistic, or un-Zalanthan, or were simply not based in IC occurrences. Just because a place is different, and offers a new setting, does not mean that it's a good addition to the gameworld. I hope you'll forgive me if I construct a little straw man to prove my point.
Let's say tomorrow that the Imms announce that a new city-state is appearing. It's called New York. It's similar to Tuluk and Allanak- it has crime, racial tension, politicking, backstabbing, a brutal police force... but they also made sure it was very different from any of the other starting locations. They decided to make New York incredibly technologically advanced, so now characters can run around with guns and drive SUVs. New York is different from the rest of the gameworld, and it offers a new, unique, and interesting setting, so it is therefore a good addition to the gameworld.
Now, replace "New York" with "Tuluk", "technologically advanced" with "culturally advanced", and "run around with guns and drive SUVs" with "be a super-rock-star bard and chill in the tavern with your betters". Hopefully, this facetious little scenario might explain my issues with Tuluk a little bit better.
Basically, just because a place is "different" and offers more options to players does not mean the place is a good addition, or even a justified one.
Tuluk is harsh, too. If you'll look at my original post carefully, you'll see that I never claimed that Tuluk was "not harsh". All I said was that the natural environment was slightly less harsh, and more realistic. This is a good thing, in my opinion.
Tuluk rocks. Allanak rocks harder.
If you don't like it, change it. I don't think anybody's actually said this yet, but I imagine it'll be coming soon. My response? Sure. By God, I'd love to.
I think what a lot of newer players don't realize is that when New Tuluk made its debut, it felt very imposed on the playerbase. I don't recall any "What should New Tuluk to be like" posts, I don't remember anyone asking for my opinion, or giving an address where I could send my opinion. Now, I doubt that this is the case... I'm sure lots of great players had a say in the formation of New Tuluk, but those were most likely the players that a hand in its formation ICly. All of us stuck with characters down in Luir's or Allanak just sort of had these Bards of the Poets Circle and infamous Tuluki subtlety shoved on to us.
Now, I'm seeing staff (Naiona and Tlaloc, specifically), actually asking for opinions on the state of Tuluk, and as you can see by this thread, I'm more than happy to give my opinion and try to rectify what I see as its problems. I have a number of suggestions on how to make Tuluk not only more different from Allanak, but more Zalanthan (in my view of what Zalanthas should be), as well. I'd be more than happy to share them, but first, I'm sort of testing the waters to see how responsive to change the staff and players might be.
Quoteas long as you don't get caught..
I have problems with the assassination/thievery as well.
By the logic, the -most- respected thieves and assassins would be the ones that literally should be unknown. Yet, they're still supposed to register for their work? That goes against the whole idea of being in a profession that targets your peers anyway.
Sure, it's legal there, they don't -have- to keep it secret. Would you want to register, knowing that the templar you register it with now has the power to share that knowledge with anyone? That they could now hire their own assassin, legally, to get YOU?
Meh. Too ridiculous. I say the 'art' of assassination and thievery is more exemplified in Allanak, where people don't even know that person -exists-. They say people just disappear in Tuluk from the templarate? People just disappear in Allanak from the criminals. THAT is art in assassination and thievery.
I'm fairly responsive to change, but I'd have to see what your ideas are. Do you think you could post them?
I have to say I disagree with the notion of unknown assassins. A concept
long denied to this game before New Tuluk returned was the idea of an
assassin for hire.
It's just not all that practical in Allanak, since they'll execute the
individual. Making it a respected part of society makes it possible for
that individual to be hired. No one has to know his or her identity and
personal history, but now there is the option of finding and hiring that
person rather than just wishing The Assassin Faerie would fall from the
heavens.
In addition, for those of you who are about to say it's "un-Zalanthan", that
aspect of Tuluk existed in the old docs over a decade ago. It's one of the
bardic traditions acquired from the old Dark Sun tabletop game. ;)
The way it went was simple:
1] Hire bard (assassin) to kill target or thief to steal an item.
2] Bard/thief visit's target's house (usually a noble/templar/merchant).
3] Host cannot refuse but watches bard/thief like a hawk.
4] Noble either ends up dead or bard ends up caught/dead by morning.
Here's the clincher though: If a bard or thief confessed to the crime, it was
not the bard/thief who was punished, it was the noble who hired him/her.
Remember, the bard/thief was just the instrument. Of course, while that
gets the bard/thief off the hook, it gains a blackmark for said character,
so many leave that as a last resort. For practical reasons, this cannot be
done in game, obviously.
The Hlum/Surif noble system in Tuluk, as well as their infamous hunt, is
also right out of the pages of Dark Sun (see: Gulg citystate for details). If
anything, I see more of the Dark Sun influence on Tuluk than I do on
Allanak, where culture and barbarism stand side by side.
I realize that Arm is not a direct reflection of Dark Sun and is, in fact,
very different from it, but the surface appearances we're so hooked on
for the game that people claim are in Allanak and not in Tuluk is just not
true. They're in both locales, if you know the material well enough. ;)
I would actually disagree that the assassin-for-hire is not practical in Allanak. Yes, they'll just execute the individual, if he gets caught. I'm not overly familiar with Tuluki laws, but I know it's a big dishonor, etc, if you get caught. That's the key to assassination. Don't get caught. I've known of several assassins that did pretty well for themselves in Allanak, for a time. Of course, all of these things come to an end, but I'd imagine that is true regardless of which City-State you're operating out of.
QuoteHost cannot refuse but watches bard/thief like a hawk.
Maybe I'm too used to playing in the South, but I think this is pretty silly. If there was a tradition of assassins inviting themselves to people's estates to kill them, and some bard invted himself over right after I made some rash political move, you can bet my guards would strike him down just inside the doorway. I can't imagine anyone in Zalanthas scoffing because Lord Winrothol had a glaringly obvious assassination/theft attempt brushed away.
Anyway, once again, this might be my southern experience or my lack of experience with the poets/registered rogues of Tuluk talking. It's just something I don't think will ever sit quite right with me.
I'm of two minds about it.
I do think it is silly and impractical for someone to willingly allow a bard
in, but one thing I did forget to mention is that the bard may have some
clues as to who he/she was sent by.
As for not striking the individual down or capturing/torturing them outright,
Allanaki nobles tend to have a case of "put your strongest foot forward"
in their actions. That is to say, it's a show of strength to let the bard in
and defeat them with guile.
On the other hand, there does some to be a playability issue involved in
that aspect that always bothered me about the bard and thief classes. But
then again, what we know of as "Assassin" on Armageddon was exactly
what Dark Sun called "Bard". Kind of a catch-22 there.
Quote from: "Halaster"Quote from: "Pantoufle"Visibly, Tuluk is a piece of art whereas Allanak is the type of place I wouldn't be surprised to find Fido the Dog NPCs running around. Allanak still has a feel of the bad old days and is in horrible need of OOC rennovation. If you look hard enough, you can still find NPCs who have descriptions which practically read:
A tall, gaunt elf
This elf is tall and gaunt. He looks very mean. I wouldn't mess with him if I were you.
A tall, gaunt elf is in excellent condition.
If you see an npc with a description like that, use the typo command please, because I sure don't see that in Allanak anywhere - but perhaps I've missed it.
You've made an oversight of my use of the word
practically. You're likely not seeing any NPCs such as the above example because I didn't said there are any. I said there are some which aren't that far off. I was indicating the lack of depth which some NPCs in Allanak possess and the fact that they are contradicted by their Tuluki counterparts.
Quote from: "Intrepid"I have to say I disagree with the notion of unknown assassins. A concept
long denied to this game before New Tuluk returned was the idea of an
assassin for hire.
It's just not all that practical in Allanak, since they'll execute the
individual.
Not exactly. In Allanak, a good assassin is always valued. Even by the templarate. By a good assassin, I am not saying the one that has the maxed backstabbing, but a professional one. If you know how to talk to a templar, how to talk to your employer, and that you are a successful assassin, you are -almost- invincible in Allanak. Even if you got caught, the templar is the law right?
Yes, I played a long lived assassin in Allanak. It is quite possible to make another one outlive him.
Quote from: "Halaster"If you see an npc with a description like that, use the typo command please, because I sure don't see that in Allanak anywhere - but perhaps I've missed it.
Take a good long look at the Labyrinth. It's pretty damn stock, and it's not a good thing.
That said, I hate Tuluk and I probably always will.
Quote from: "Nao"PLEASE don't make Allanak all artistic and full of bards... Even if I like the 'naki songs much better.
Allanak has bards and poets, but they are not as popular as the arena fights.
When I first started playing, I used to think Tuluk was easier than Allanak.
Let's face it. If you have a purse full of coins, it's easy to ride into Tuluk, hit a couple of bars, and grab some spice....hear a bard play. No one will probably look at you funny.
But if you hang around long enough, you'll likely run into trouble. The difference that I've noticed is that in Allanak, people jump on the noobs first off. In Tuluk, people seem to jump on anyone that doesn't fit in well. So if you're only visiting for a couple of weeks, you probably won't pick up much notice.
On a longer scale, Tuluk seems very dangerous if you make waves or tick off the wrong people. As is often stated, the dangers of Tuluk are quite subtle and kept out of the public eye. Additionally, there is a lot of tolerance for things that are taboo in other parts of the world -- e.g. thievery, minority races.
But just try playing an openly magic-character in Tuluk, or taking part in an openly inter-racial romance, or try to initiate a relationship with someone outside of your social station, and you'll run into trouble real quick.
It boils down to time scale in my opinion -- Allanak is dangerous to all new characters, but is not so bad provided you survive your first few conflicts. Tuluk is dangerous to anyone who attracts attention, no matter how long they've been there.
Anyone else notice something like this?
I've been reading a lot of Post-Colonial literature lately and have done a great deal of thinking about the situation of Tuluk's rebirth.'
There aren't that many real life situations similiar to Tuluk's. The only recent one I can think of would be France's liberation from Germany after WW2, and that occupation was only for about five years, but that period after their liberation sparked the French New Wave movement in Cinema which is highly regarded.
In Tuluk they are in a very distinct Post-Colonial situation. They were conquered by a people with a very different and clashing culture. They were dispersed and nearly had their culture stamped out.
When a society comes that close to the brink of destruction, when they do manage to not only survive but to get revenge against their oppressors the first thing that society does is try to reestablish its cultural identity. This identity will undoubtedly be different than their original identity, and most likely an exaggeration to the point of hyperbole of their original identity in an attempt to completly differentiate themselves from the oppressor they hated.
Even in victory the scars run deep for Tuluk as they would for any society that has had to endure what they had to.
Quote from: "Kalden"Quote from: "Halaster"If you see an npc with a description like that, use the typo command please, because I sure don't see that in Allanak anywhere - but perhaps I've missed it.
Take a good long look at the Labyrinth. It's pretty damn stock, and it's not a good thing.
That said, I hate Tuluk and I probably always will.
Bzzt. Try again. The Labyrinth, like all areas on Armageddon, was completely written from scratch, and it indeed went through a complete re-write during the last revamp of Allanak. There are no 'stock' areas on Armageddon.
ibusoe is really on the ball, I think.
In Allanak, you'll know if you piss of a noble or particularly, a templar. In Tuluk, you'll never know. In fact, you'll probably live for awhile and even forget that time when you said this or that. But eventually, it comes back to haunt you. I think that this would keep you more on your heels-- instead of knowing right away, you have to wait, wonder, and suck up.
Tuluk is also pretty discrimatory. You could be a totally and completely, honest, just-making-a-living southron but if you look at someone wrong, they might go complain to His Faithful. Or worse, a bard. Pissing off a bard is not a good thing to do, because some turn out to be assassins, have assassin friends, or just plain have too many connections for anyone to compete with.
Things are different in Tuluk for one big reason. Tulukis are living in His Light and 'nakis are living in His Shadow. In Tuluk, the upper castes mingle and occasionally do things for the commoners. They demand respect, but at the same time they offer a bit. This trails back to the Occupation, when in the end, the commoners really did save the city. But in Allanak, the method is to scare and oppress the people.
I, personally, don't see much wrong with Tuluk at all. The fact that the authority has taken a completely different approach to controlling the population is a huge factor as to why, as you say, Tuluk is so easier or isn't harsh enough.
QuoteBzzt. Try again. The Labyrinth, like all areas on Armageddon, was completely written from scratch, and it indeed went through a complete re-write during the last revamp of Allanak. There are no 'stock' areas on Armageddon.
Then I guess it just wasn't very well-written. :roll:
When I say stock area, I mean an area where ONE room has been written and then copy/pasted over and over and over. It's annoying. What's worse is that these rooms aren't very well-written in and of themselves. A dead-end with what? Sheer walls? Abandoned buildings with simply walls, no windows, no rubble in the corner? Up exits with no description of what is leading up - is it stairs? Is it a rope? Is it a magickal elevator? :shock:
Quote from: "Kalden"When I say stock area, I mean an area where ONE room has been written and then copy/pasted over and over and over. It's annoying. What's worse is that these rooms aren't very well-written in and of themselves. A dead-end with what? Sheer walls? Abandoned buildings with simply walls, no windows, no rubble in the corner? Up exits with no description of what is leading up - is it stairs? Is it a rope? Is it a magickal elevator? :shock:
I think I understand where you're coming from on this, but...it's a maze,
so I think it's supposed to be redundant. Granted, details could be added
that are also redundant, but the descriptions may have been done the
way they were to save the eyes of those who never use brief mode.
Like myself, come to think of it. ;)
Quote from: "Kalden"When I say stock area, I mean an area where ONE room has been written and then copy/pasted over and over and over. It's annoying. What's worse is that these rooms aren't very well-written in and of themselves. A dead-end with what? Sheer walls? Abandoned buildings with simply walls, no windows, no rubble in the corner? Up exits with no description of what is leading up - is it stairs? Is it a rope? Is it a magickal elevator? :shock:
You could always rewrite it for them. Maybe you'll capture the essense of the Rinth better.
QuoteWhen I say stock area, I mean an area where ONE room has been written and then copy/pasted over and over and over.
I think "stock" is the technical term for areas that are part of the raw, unworked MUD that you download and build on.
I.E, if you download a standard ROM MUD, and start building on it but keep the Mudschool area that all ROM MUDs come with, that area would be "stock", because it hasn't been changed from the "standard package" ROM MUD that you downloaded.
I'm pretty sure that's what it means.
Quote from: "Hymwen"I think "stock" is the technical term for areas that are part of the raw, unworked MUD that you download and build on.
This is correct.
There is no technical term for an area composed of rooms with identical descriptions, though "void-like" is applicable for broad areas that are meant to be confusing - the Salt Flats may be a good example.
(A void area is an area where the room exists are seemingly random and sometimes looping, making it very easy to not get lost).
Anyhow, my understanding is that the rooms in the 'rinth intentionally look similar in order to make the place more confusing. Like a labyrinth.
QuoteAnyhow, my understanding is that the rooms in the 'rinth intentionally look similar in order to make the place more confusing. Like a labyrinth.
Perhaps. I know that it could be more confusing and less boring. More rooms with 4 exits would make it confusing(which it is currently not). Nooks and crannies every which way, ect. Abandoned buildings with a little flavor to them might make it a -little- less confusing but would add hugely to the environment. Ect.
My apologies if I am stating something that was already mentioned, since I read the first page, and skipped the other 3. Dont kill me, I dont do it 'that' often, it's just 2 am here.
To be honest, while I would love more documentation on 'Naki culture. There is an in theme reason why would Tuluki appear more culturally rich (or rich generally), then Allanak. The reason number one for it, would be the fact that ... Tuluki ground is richer then Allanki's desert. The only way to fix this, is to make the materials that can be found only in the desert aka ... obsidian. That would balance out the material richness of the two cities.
But material and cultural are two related things, and from what I read about Allanak, the city has been 'decaying' comercially and therefore culturally for centuries. Ever since Tektolnes failed to keep his hold over Tuluk, he's fucked. He and his city will last for a couple more centuries, decaying more and more in his conservative ways, and eventually Tuluki themselves would probably conquer them if there was any real reason to go into the desert.
While Tuluki is experiencing an upsurge of enthusiasm, something that is very natural of any country that managed to keep some of it's culture while under domination, and then suddenly been released. Tuluki culture and it's people has been reinvigorated by the massive calamity, shock, and sudden freedom that befell them. That is a very natural occurance, that happened numerious times within RL cultures aswell. That, and extremely rich territory, with both foodstuffs and building material should be a very good reason why Tuluki is thriving and Allanak isnt.
So, three things should happen to allow Allanak to regain atleast some commercial standings. Spice should be allowed back in, that would not fix the problem, but would boost things up commercially. Obsidian would suddenly turn from 'one' of the materials into 'the' material, one much better then wood in some unique way. Or ... an opening of iron mine right near the obsidian ones. Other then those, I dont really see what else can Allanak get out of a desert ... except maybe oil.
Note, availability of 'salt' would probably not help as much, because ... you cant equip armies or build/feed cities with it.
In short, the only reason why Allanak is important, is because Tek laid his eggs inside it, and he cant leave.
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"like the Bards of Poet's Circle
Allanak has the Arena and it's bloodthirsty gladiators, where people will cheer for a particular gladiator and boo for another. Where people go and place bets, and I imagine professional bookkeepers work out of.
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"or the caste tattoos.
I'll give you that.
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"Allanak, on the other hand, has very little to no documentation on their artistic traditions.
They have an entire Noble House who lives and dies by bards, constantly through festivals and parties. House Fale.
Now while this might not be in any offcial docs (and should probably make it's way there), I'd say bards in Allanak are seen to entertain. Whether they're entertaining nobles or entertaining commoners, they're entertaining. They're valued for how well they can entertain their audience. Whereas in Tuluk the knowledge of a bard is valued much more then simply because it will entertain the populace, but because it shows someone whose more knowledgable in their art. A Tuluki bard will be respected for how well they have composed a song, whereas an Allanaki bard will be valued for how entertaining their song was.
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"There is a "Tuluki Roleplay" document, for example, with no corresponding "Allanaki Roleplay" document.
You mean this one for Tuluki Nobles, which is definitely not a copy of
the Allanaki Noble one? (note that the Allanaki one is much larger).
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"The result is that it seems like Tuluk simply has "better" art, or "more" art, or a "more refined" populace.
Better is subjective. Will an Allanaki like a Tulukie's art? Doubtful. Will a Tuluki like a nakkies art? Doubtful.
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"The problem is that Allanak should have the same level of detail, for the sake of realism if nothing else.
I'm ambivalent on this. I think in the desert it's carnivore against carnivore/scavenger. Up in Tuluk they actually have herbivores. Anything too weak dies too quickly.
And rangers can survive in Allanak,
if they're smart. They don't have to be as smart in Tuluk, but a dumb ranger will die quickly no matter where. I know, I've played in both areas ;) The learning curve isn't as steep in Tuluk.
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"I find it absolutely mind-boggling, and a touch unrealistic, that Tuluk could retain its cultural values (with such specifics as caste tattoos and bardic tradition) during years of oppression, in a harsh desert climate, with a largely illiterate populace.
Tattoos are fairly easy to remember and bards are traditionally the keepers of knowledge IRL, I imagine they play such a role in Tuluk.
But you're concentrating on what they kept, rather then what they lost. They lost the Great Hunt (name?), they lost Hlum nobles, an entire caste! They lost to a degree the superiority of the nobles. I believe Tuluki nobles and Allanaki nobles were once very similar, now the Tulukie nobles survived only because of the commoners. The gap between noble and commoner closed significantly. Although not entirely, so don't go around treating nobles as equals ;)
I also imagine the noble Houses lost quite a bit of information. And didn't Tuluk also once be the richest city ever? What is their wealth like now?
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"they somehow managed to surpass Allanak in terms of cultural and artistic achievement during a very short span of time.
About 10 IC years. And I'd say it was extremely expensive. If Tuluk is in debt for a long while I wouldn't be surprised. Then again, who could have lent them the money?
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"I'd of used that stone for building roads, not commissioning statues... but I guess we should chalk that one up to the average Tuluki's fervent appreciation of the arts.
Or a Tulukie noble's understanding of the necessity of propaganda.
I personally think for all of Tuluk's supposed advanced status, it's actually quite crude. Sure thieves and assassins are legally recognized and for the experts, respected and have a high social position, there's no organized crime. Nowhere to learn the trade, no-one to turn to.
And while the bardic circles do seek to gain knowledge, I'd say they're enhancing the noble's ignorance. Noble's are actually sent to a bard, rather then have a bard hired by the noble House? That's a big difference there, and demonstrates just how the two cultures differ.
Oh, and while they have the bardic circles to gather knowledge and train, Allanak has the Atrium and the Tor Academy, which are much more accessible to players then the bardic circles I believe. Again, highlighting the difference (well, the Tor Academy does anyway). Where commoners go to Nobles to learn in Allanak, they go to other commoners to learn in Tuluk. That says the nobles are definitely lacking something ;)
Oh, and as for art around the city's, I'd say it's about equal actually. Allanak got a fair bit of art recently (as in, over a year ago).
So for your points I don't refute:
* Caste tattoos
* Fauna and Flora being gentler up north then down south.
So I'd say Tuluk is hardly more developed then Allanak.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"I would love to see more documentation about Allanaki culture, art, etc.
Where do you think it's lacking? I'm all for more documentation, but I can't say "I don't know as much about Allanak in respect to X as I do about Tuluk." I only brought up one point in my above post that isn't explicitly said in the docs.
Quote from: "Hymwen"and I have yet to meet any "evil" characters (such as 'rinthers in Allanak).
You aren't looking in the right places.
Quote from: "Hymwen"People are nicer
PCs are nicer. This can only change by playing mean bastards.
Quote from: "Hymwen"the environment is much more gentle, and food and water costs so much less than it does in Allanak. It doesn't portray Zalanthas' harshness and struggle like I personally think it should.
One's a desert, the other has a forest. How would you portray Zalanthas' harshness?
Quote from: "Hymwen"Allanak just seems to have more life, there's more little details like rooftops, alleys and things that make it seem like people live there. Interesting little out-of-the-way places, which I haven't seen in Tuluk at all.
So is Allanak more developed or less developed?
Quote from: "moab"It would be nice if Allanak had more depth in its arts and music and general philosophies.
Do you think it's not as in depth as Tuluk? If so, how? Is it
just the bardic circles?
Quote from: "moab"What really needs to be done is several folks (I nominate me for one) need to sit down and hash out the culture and philosophy of the south.
Philosophy:
* Nobles are better then everyone else and the commoners copy them in everything, only making changes when they have to because of money.
* A good fighter is respected and admired.
* Thieving and murdering is terrible and shouldn't be done. Nobles of course have differing views when it suits them.
* Nobles and Templars are to be feared and obeyed no matter what.
* It is bad to show bare skin. To be attractive, it's much better to wear form-fitting clothing.
* It's better to do a job well then be flashy while doing a job.
* Allanakies are extremely superstitious about magickers, with many documented superstitions.
* Geometric shapes and stripes are preffered to adorn clothing, with trims having embroidery, bands of solid colors or patterned hems
* People's entertainment is more base. They love a good old fashioned execution.
Quote from: "moab"Now that I think of it - one of the problems with Tuluk is that it seems to have been built around (literally) bards and the bardic circle. Doing this has removed any sense of desperate struggle for the PCs and probably the NPCs.
Why? The bards are in their section, when they come and perform, great. Otherwise, life continues on. Your average Zalanthan still needs to eat and sleep.
Quote from: "moab"When the bards have to go underground and play in secrete their national anthems of old....then you'll have music worth hearing. Then you'll have poems worth repeating.
Been there done that. Is it really just a case of people wanting to go back to how the game use to be?
Actually. Are there PC Templars in Tuluk? This could be big part of the problem.
And Allanakies are kept happy through the Arena and Fail's bards. Unfortunately both of these things are fairly virtual most of the time.
Quote from: "Arbonne"Since known magickers will die almost on sight, people are more able to relax without having to worry about what the gemmer in table right next to you will do.
This is balanced by nobles and Templars hiring spies among any commoner. They should do so much more then Allanaki templars and nobles do. Which means the only difference is, in Allanak gemmers are the spies. In Tuluk anyone is the spy. However I imagine PCs don't do this too often. So do it! Just bribe any old commoner to rat on his friends. Everyone has a secret.
Quote from: "Arbonne"For players in Tuluk, it allows them to be imaginitive and express themselves through their characters more easily than in Allanak, while players in allanak really wouldn't have to worry about what to wear since what is worn is already necessary for the weather conditions.
Not really true. Someone who goes outside the city without proper protection is a fool. An Allanaki who doesn't leave the city will wear varying clothes, expressing themself. Go to a tavern (not the Gaj) if you don't believe me.
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"I think what a lot of newer players don't realize is that when New Tuluk made its debut, it felt very imposed on the playerbase.
I disagree.
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"I don't recall any "What should New Tuluk to be like" posts, I don't remember anyone asking for my opinion, or giving an address where I could send my opinion. Now, I doubt that this is the case... I'm sure lots of great players had a say in the formation of New Tuluk, but those were most likely the players that a hand in its formation ICly. All of us stuck with characters down in Luir's or Allanak just sort of had these Bards of the Poets Circle and infamous Tuluki subtlety shoved on to us.
Perfectly reasonable IMO. I don't see a problem with it. If the staff want to ask us players, great. But I don't have a problem with them changing things how they want, provided IC reasons are given (the retcons I do disagree with and are unfortunate IMO. I'd much rather it didn't happen).
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"Now, I'm seeing staff (Naiona and Tlaloc, specifically), actually asking for opinions on the state of Tuluk, and as you can see by this thread, I'm more than happy to give my opinion and try to rectify what I see as its problems. I have a number of suggestions on how to make Tuluk not only more different from Allanak, but more Zalanthan (in my view of what Zalanthas should be), as well. I'd be more than happy to share them, but first, I'm sort of testing the waters to see how responsive to change the staff and players might be.
You probably should have sent the e-mail when asked, not afterwards ;)
Quote from: "Intrepid"1] Hire bard (assassin) to kill target or thief to steal an item.
2] Bard/thief visit's target's house (usually a noble/templar/merchant).
3] Host cannot refuse but watches bard/thief like a hawk.
4] Noble either ends up dead or bard ends up caught/dead by morning.
With all due respect, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, and if ever an assassin or thief does this, they won't be respected. They'll be laughed at/scorned.
Having said all that, Tuluk isn't as gritty as Allanak, and I don't know why. And I don't know how to change it. I just disagree on all of the above points ;)
I think a big problem is
Quote from: "bardess"In Allanak, you'll know if you piss of a noble or particularly, a templar. In Tuluk, you'll never know.
This needs to change, and quickly. Being subtle doesn't mean not expressing displeasure. Find subtle ways to let someone know in no uncertain terms, your angry!
And everyone should know what happened. If someone's quietly dealt with, to show a noble's displeasure, that person should talk about it to everyone. Everyone should know "don't piss off Noble X, he did such and such to commoner Y" (rather then just "don't piss of Noble X cause he's such a swell guy"). Nobles should stop being so buddy buddy with commoners, and begin to widen the seperation.
At least, that's the opinion of someone who hasn't been in Tuluk for a while.
Quote from: "Larrath"There is no technical term for an area composed of rooms with identical descriptions
I believe the technical term is "lazy" :P
Just kidding ;)
Tuluk has a lot of potential, and its surrounding area allows for a certain kind of player vs environment nature. In my opinion, the main problem with Tuluk is the playerbase is spread too thin, which really fucks things up. On the one hand, it's good as it forces diversity. On the other hand, you have the Poet's Circle, Sun Legions, Winrothol, Tenneshi, Kurac, Kadius, and Salarr all up there, as well as it being a haven for independents. This doesn't quite bode well for Tuluk, as it's really not as strong in numbers as Allanak.
Tuluk can be fun, and there is underhanded stuff that goes on. The problem also is that a lot of the characters in Tuluk, from what I've seen, tend to be somewhat more long-lived. New characters bring in flavor and spur certain things into action. Right now, the state of the Tuluk union is basically grab whatever PC you can for your clan.
The way I think things could be improved is just by either having more PCs made in Tuluk or closing down a couple of clans. The only clan I could really see being shut down is Tenneshi, as the pbase is small and, with all due respect to the players within it, I haven't really seen much contributed from it. Other than that, Tuluk really just needs more players.
Quote from: "John"Having said all that, Tuluk isn't as gritty as Allanak, and I don't know why. And I don't know how to change it. I just disagree on all of the above points Wink
I think it is because, the subtlety is not applied very well, as some other aspects of Tuluk that actually -
defines- Tuluk. I am not sure if applying the theory is difficult, or is it just me not seeing it. And that is why I don't like Tuluk. What is in theory is not applied well. I never made a Tuluki nor am I actually planning to. But I played a southerner there for quite a long time (more than a few IC years). So this is all based on my observations there.
P.S: Thanks John. I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks for putting the effor t to write it.
Noticed a slight derail going on with the labyrinth being 'stock' rooms and such.
I think that's there for a reason. Looking at room descriptions, take a moment to think about what the labyrinth -is-. It's a bunch of alleys. All of them are filled with trash, beggars, and basically unsavory people and 'pictures', so to speak. Nothing varies.
The room descriptions are all the same, minus special occurences such as statues, or different exits to go to, or the other odd thing that sticks out.
When someone who has never been there before goes, and they look at these descriptions, will they find their way out easily? Probably not.
If a character who has never been in those alleys before wanders in too deep, and looks around for how to get back, will they find it easily? Probably not.
Rather than it being bland, I think it actually -adds- to the effect of what the labyrinth is, exactly. It's a labyrinth. Maze. A slum. Nothing varies, nothing is different. It's just a bunch of alleys to get lost or mugged in. Minus the lack of variation, the descriptions are actually beautifully written...for something that's written to describe something generic.
Tuluk kicks ass!
Quote from: "Recharge"Tuluk kicks ass!
Sure. Every mud needs a newbie area.
I think that the half the problem for people who hate Tuluk is that they do not understand the concept of subtlety, and don't know how to be subtle. The other half does understand subtlety, and they would rather be blunt and in everyone's face instead.
Quotethink that the half the problem for people who hate Tuluk is that they do not understand the concept of subtlety, and don't know how to be subtle. The other half does understand subtlety, and they would rather be blunt and in everyone's face instead.
Well, kind of.
I know what subtlety is, and can use it when needed. I -do- like bluntness instead, but that's not anything that doesn't get boring sometimes as well.
My problem with the subtlety issue is that -everyone- is trying to be the epitome of subtle, with some exceptions that are always there. To the point that the subtlety is translucent and not subtle at all, because you can expect it. It makes characters...much less three dimensional, with a big area of the character that is the same as all the others. It starts grating on my nerves when I see the 'obvious subtlety' everywhere, because really...obvious subtlety is an oxymoron and shouldn't exist.
Yet, how much different is obvious subtlety and bluntness? I don't see why someone should favor one and not the other. And in any case, with Tuluk, if the concept is taken right, it really should be difficult to know if someone is being obviously subtle for a reason or not. (edited to add: Might just be a set up, after all. :roll: )
Yet, my only real gripe about Tuluk is it's lack of crime, almost similar to the south-side of Allanak? :wink: Though bordering on a different topic, I think one or two known criminal groups in Tuluk such as the Guild in Allakan would make things a whole lot more interesting.
QuoteWith all due respect, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, and if ever an assassin or thief does this, they won't be respected. They'll be laughed at/scorned.
As I'm not the original author, that's wonderful that you feel that way.
However, if I told you that there was once a caste of slaves that could
challenge the nobility of their empire, would you consider that ridiculous
as well? Are they laughed at/scorned too? It was the Ottoman Empire,
and they were known as the Mameleukes, and found it disturbingly easy
to cripple their own empire if they needed to.
Never underestimate the idea of a tried and true institution.
Actually, I hate Tuluk because, for a desert planet - one that charges you 30 bucks for a gallon of water - Tuluk not only has gardens in multitude, but seems fit to leave bowls of water laying around "for decoration" in the inns.
I hate Tuluk because the people who play there seem to be of the impression that the Grey Forest is similar to the Amazon in its height, thickness, and depth, when the reality (at least if you read the zone desc) is apparently closer to some grassy scrub and a few stands of stunted or baobab trees here and there.
I hate Tuluk because the shops are poorly laid out and don't serve my needs (where is the tailor, again? I never did find it. Why isn't the ranger inn closer to the gate so that we don't have to see the rest of you people if we need to meet our employer to pay off a debt?).
I hate Tuluk because the board posts are petty, fruitless, and just plain shallow in comparison to role play that I am used to, and because they don't seem to have been cleared off since sometime in the late 1950's.
I hate Tuluk because the PCs there seem to be fairly stereotypical in regard to their character types.
I hate Tuluk because so many characters there clash in one or more ways with my concept of what characters in a supposedly harsh world should be (Oh look, a guy bleeding on the road. I will go and bandage him and help him be better!)
And no, I don't think that everyone should be out to kill everyone else - but being hunted beats sitting in a tavern trying to succeed just once on your listen check so that you can break into the carefully crafted cliques that have set place.
My hatred of Tuluk has nothing to do with your supposed subtlety or my desire for a more up-front gameplay in Allanak. Truth be told, I'd be happy playing an isolated desert elf clan of two with my roommate if I thought we could garner enough skills to survive the shortest of trips to a water source and tell the rest of you city people to go walk off the shield wall.
Wow...
I am really annoyed at a lot of things you just said Davien. You just insulted everyone playing in Tuluk right now whether they think you did or not. And I believe somewhere in the rules, or atleast the staff has said before that it is not a player's place to judge other's RP. I'm sorry you feel that way about Tuluk, and most of your post was reasonable of you to say, but I think saying things like:
QuoteI hate Tuluk because the people who play there...
is extremely insulting to myself and I'm sure others who play in Tuluk.
Now I'm no one to tell you how to post on the boards, but I thought you might want to read your post again...
Anyways, as for my opinion of Tuluk. I almost always play there, and I really enjoy myself up there. I agree with others that the way it is now is not the way I'd like to see it, but there are many good things about it as well.
I'll just mention a few things I like and don't like. For starters, I honestly don't like the number of bards in the city at the moment, though I'm sure it's just one of those 'half-elf' and 'mage' phases...we'll see :twisted:
I really feel that at the moment, Tuluk needs more...mundane characters (like mercenaries and stuff!) though I realize it might be boring for people to play these in the city. Whatever, only time will tell.
One thing I really like about Tuluk though, is its diversity, and the chance to go out and hunt all sorts of different animals, herbs, wood, and other stuff.
The types of RPT's in the city are for the most part interesting, though are almost always directed at a more upper-class group. It would be nice to have a few more RPT's for those of us without 100 000 'sid in the bank.
All round, I simply like Tuluk more...I think because that's where I first started, and have never really given Allanak a chance very many times, though from what I've seen, I simply enjoy playing in Tuluk more. *shrug*
I have no doubt that Tuluk has some merits. A few I recognize and haven't posted.
However, I'm tired of reading everyone say that the only people who can possibly hate Tuluk have no grasp of subtlety and just can't possibly know what they're talking about when they dislike a place.
Be offended. I like company.
But I am keenly aware that my opinion of other people's role play means exactly nothing, and I'm fine with that. I just want to be clear on the reasons why I choose not to play there while other people are speculating here.
Quote from: "elvenchipmunk"
I'll just mention a few things I like and don't like. For starters, I honestly don't like the number of bards in the city at the moment, though I'm sure it's just one of those 'half-elf' and 'mage' phases...we'll see :twisted:
I really feel that at the moment, Tuluk needs more...mundane characters (like mercenaries and stuff!) though I realize it might be boring for people to play these in the city. Whatever, only time will tell.
I agree completely. Tuluk has had a surge of bard characters (and also jewelers?) and the city really does need some hunter, soldier, types. But I also seem to have noticed that we've gotten some new players lately. Also, some people don't like to play in the same place in a row, so that they don't run into their old characters friends. Either way, what I'm trying to say is, sometimes it's hard to know what a city needs.
I've played in 'nak and didn't like it. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it, I just prefer tuluk. Same with clans. I've actively left a clan just because it wasn't a good fit. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it and in one case it was pretty fascinating, it just didn't fit. It's cool we have choices as a playerbase. I'm cool with some people hating one place over another. I would prefer the cities be more opposite but all in good time, I guess. :-)
- HK
Quote from: "Intrepid"
However, if I told you that there was once a caste of slaves that could
challenge the nobility of their empire, would you consider that ridiculous
as well? Are they laughed at/scorned too? It was the..., and they were known as the ...
How sad is this that I thought you were going to say "Ironsword"
You guys make it sound like there's no Luir's, no Storm, and no wilds. Tuluk and Allanak aren't the only two options, nor are they polar opposites.
Personally I dislike how difficult it is to play a hunter in 'Nak. I don't disagree that solo hunters should not be able to take down big trophy kills, but not being able to live at a subsistence level without mining obsidian or gathering salt is a bit of a pain. In terms of subtlety, though, I don't think Tuluk is particularly more subtle than Allanak; people are just a bit more polite. What does separate the two dramatically, I find, is that Allanakis are generally not possessed of any sort of camraderie, whereas Tulukis often are. As a recovering culture, I can see how this is appropriate for Tuluk.
My main - maybe only - beef with Tuluk is that the criminal scene is so far deep beneath the surface that many PCs simply will not come into contact with it. The internal strife in Allanak between the law and the shadies (not to mention the finger-wagglers) adds a very interesting dynamic that Tuluk seems to lack.
The nice thing about having ooc disgust (is disgust too strong? nah) about one place over the other is that it makes us, as players, willing to throw down our PCs lives (or, more preferably, other pc's lives.) over the issue. :-D
Quote from: "davien"How sad is this that I thought you were going to say "Ironsword"
There are a lot of people fixated on that little group of homicidal dwarves. ;)
I wonder why that is...
Quote from: "moab"The nice thing about having ooc disgust (is disgust too strong? nah) about one place over the other is that it makes us, as players, willing to throw down our PCs lives (or, more preferably, other pc's lives.) over the issue. :-D
Hell yeah!
Quote from: "Intrepid"There are a lot of people fixated on that little group of homicidal dwarves.
Because FUNNY characters rock the hizzouse. how can you beat a dwarven pirate? Someone should totally do that again.
QuoteBecause FUNNY characters rock the hizzouse. how can you beat a dwarven pirate? Someone should totally do that again.
It sure does beggar the imagination. Waaaaaay back at an old Arm
imm/player online meeting, it was either Azroen or Nessalin who once
alluded to Thrain being a butt-pirate... :shock:
The thing that makes me wonder is: Why haven't we had a strong clan
of dwarves since then?
Quote from: "Intrepid"
The thing that makes me wonder is: Why haven't we had a strong clan
of dwarves since then?
Because everyone's too busy tavernspotting and out subtling one another in Allanak and Tuluk?
-shrug-
I'm shit at playing a dwarf, but if you ever start something up that promises to be funny, call me up, and I'm in.
Quote from: "davien"Because everyone's too busy tavernspotting and out subtling one another in Allanak and Tuluk?
-shrug-
I'm shit at playing a dwarf, but if you ever start something up that promises to be funny, call me up, and I'm in.
An intriguing idea, but I doubt anyone would share my sense of humor.
Yeah, I agree with Davien.
Someone should make another pirate (dwarf or not) and we should all follow after. There are lots of people with strong leadership and gritty positions, come on!
What's a pirate in Armageddon, other than a plain ol' raider?
Hey, get me a silt skimmer and a talking vestric, and let the swashbuckling begin!
It does bring to mind the kind of comedy of errors that could come about
if a group of dwarves all had one unifying but thoroughly insane focus that
they set out to complete with what is, for them, the utmost seriousness.
For us, it would be hilarious mayhem.
It would be even more fun if it was a group of Tuluki dwarves that tried
to fit into the populace by being effite and subtle. Emphasis on tried.
Tuluk is certain different than Allanak, but if the two city-states functioned the same, I'd have no reason to play between them. I like the difference, and I think it's important. Play in Allanak if you want a more Zalanthian experience, but play in Tuluk to get a different experience.
Quote from: "Aldiel"Tuluk is certain different than Allanak, but if the two city-states functioned the same, I'd have no reason to play between them. I like the difference, and I think it's important. Play in Allanak if you want a more Zalanthian experience, but play in Tuluk to get a different experience.
I think this post inadvertently hit it on the head.
There's no reason that Tuluk and Allanak can't be different and both be Zalanthan.
It's really distracting to have a city that doesn't feel like it fits in the world, and it's giving people some very weird ideas about how the game (as a whole) should be played.
Quote from: "davien"
It's really distracting to have a city that doesn't feel like it fits in the world, and it's giving people some very weird ideas about how the game (as a whole) should be played.
If you would be so kind, could you expand upon this for me?
I'm not certain how it is that Tuluk doesn't fit into the world so I'd like a little more on your thoughts in this.
I remember Old Tuluk and, to be honest, it was fluffier than New Tuluk is today.
So... basically, what I'm curious about is the why you feel Tuluk is out of place and what very weird ideas it is giving people.
Quote from: "marko"So... basically, what I'm curious about is the why you feel Tuluk is out of place and what very weird ideas it is giving people.
It's really hard to put this to words, and a lot of it is, honestly, the players I was exposed to. No one spends any time talking about life in Tuluk or putting their characters into the setting in a specific way that is accessible to others. Everyone has a secret story and a clique, and that's it. I didn't see people who were really into life on Zalanthas in any way except a couple of hunters who were pretty decent. What about nomads, though? Anything? But, rather than offend more people, I'll spend more time on the other things.
I think that there are a lot of people who, after playing in Tuluk, seem to think that lush plantlife exists on Zalanthas and can be everywhere as long as it is properly nurtured, or cared for. The image I have always had in my head is more like plantlife on Dune. You keep it in a glass bubble, and it costs millions to water it, because large plants just don't survive in the climate, or else they're too valuable to risk leaving them out for joe blow to harvest them, chop them, or whatever them.
While there are trees around Tuluk, I've never felt it was a lush amazonian rainforest. If it were, I would imagine it to be the kind of deep forest where halflings wait around every corner, poisonous bugs, and bloodthirsty plantlife reign. But, I've heard in-game references (and more startlingly, ooc references) that suggest it is just a tree filled place ready for the pickings, everything should be made entirely out of wood (oh why bother carrying heavy stone, there are plenty of trees) and it's a great place to go and have a picnic.
Now, I don't suggest that Tuluk needs to be barren and a wasteland, but I also don't see why any Zalanthan city would toss it to the wind and assume that water is plentiful enough to use as decoration, to waste on civic gardens for the public to use, etc. Why is water still sold at the same prices as Allanak if water is so plentiful? And where the hell are they getting it from? The invisible lake? The dry well? The non-magical templars? Isn't there even an IC story to cover this?
Even outside of this, though, how does work get done in the city? I didn't feel there was a prevalence of slaves. There's even a noble house that bills itself as being a slaver house. For what? There's no arena... there weren't any laborers...
So ok, it's different. I guess people just work for a living. Doing what? Is everyone in Tuluk a templar, noble, hunter, bard, merchant, or jewelry maker? I saw a bunch of potters... a couple people carting lumber. What about the grunt work that noone ever wants to do?
What happens to people who don't pull their weight? beggars? What about perceived criminals? Are they all taken into a cell, disarmed, and assassinated? No public examples?
So why aren't people more afraid of not meeting the status quo? What about fear propaganda? Where's the paranoia? Even with subtlety, there should be some paranoia. Where's the grit and the toil of surviving the supposedly harsh wildlife? If it's completely sublimated, where are the social stigma?
Maybe I just missed it with all the subtlety going around, but it just doesn't feel like Zalanthas. Or maybe it's just because I knew Ysania and still can't believe she got an entire street.
-shrugs-
I appreciate subtlety. I do. But I just don't feel the Armageddon atmosphere in Tuluk, even in the rumors on the boards, the attitudes of the players, the IC motivations
Quote from: "davien"Even outside of this, though, how does work get done in the city? I didn't feel there was a prevalence of slaves. There's even a noble house that bills itself as being a slaver house. For what? There's no arena... there weren't any laborers...
I don't know what Tuluk was like before or during the occupation. But afterwards most of it was sectioned off to the playerbase with the clear understanding the city was getting repaired. There's certainly plenty of slaves around now to do the work. Look at room descs and NPCs.
Quote from: "davien"What about the grunt work that noone ever wants to do?
You mean like buying shit (I'm assuming to burn it)? There's definitely people doing that (look around).
Quote from: "davien"What happens to people who don't pull their weight? beggars?
They either beg enough to eat or starve. Same us Allanak.
Quote from: "davien"What about perceived criminals? Are they all taken into a cell, disarmed, and assassinated? No public examples?
The Faithful appear to believe that simply dissapearing people works better for fear. IMO it works. I'd say the Gestapo was much more scarier then normal police. Even if those normal police can kill you for looking at them funny.
Quote from: "davien"So why aren't people more afraid of not meeting the status quo? What about fear propaganda? Where's the paranoia? Even with subtlety, there should be some paranoia. Where's the grit and the toil of surviving the supposedly harsh wildlife? If it's completely sublimated, where are the social stigma?
Aren't elves still distrusted and half-elves looked upon with contempt? If people aren't playing like this then there's something wrong with them, and your character should question why they're being so friendly. What are they
really up too?
Oh, and saying magickers are all dangerous people who should be killed is propaganda.
I don't see how that works in a world where life is supposedly worthless to a commoner.
I bet most of the fear would come from rumors, rumors from people that "Escaped," or people that saw people that saw people dragging limbs and torsos out of the jails to the burners, etc.
Quote from: "John"
The Faithful appear to believe that simply dissapearing people works better for fear. IMO it works. I'd say the Gestapo was much more scarier then normal police. Even if those normal police can kill you for looking at them funny.
I'd buy this if people didn't walk outside and disappear more often. See, if it were me, IC, I'd probably just assume that someone who "disappeared" went out into the wilderness and was beset by savages, for example.
Quote from: "John"Aren't elves still distrusted and half-elves looked upon with contempt? If people aren't playing like this then there's something wrong with them, and your character should question why they're being so friendly. What are they really up too?
Oh, and saying magickers are all dangerous people who should be killed is propaganda.
I didn't see a single elf while I was there, so I wouldn't know whether they're held in contempt or not. I saw one half-elven human (you know the type). But even then, that's not a city-specific differentiation.
As far as the all magickers are killed being propaganda - eh. Not really.
Quote from: "davien"I'd buy this if people didn't walk outside and disappear more often. See, if it were me, IC, I'd probably just assume that someone who "disappeared" went out into the wilderness and was beset by savages, for example.
When in Tuluk why not assume that all people who dissapear didn't die in the wilderness, but by a Faithful? "Gees, I wonder what secret Bob had? Maybe he was a magicker? Didn't seem the type, but I guess you can't trust anyone."
BTW, going to the wilderness and dying is mainly a player phenomenon. Sure it happens to VNPCs, but they're generally not as stupid as us players and they don't go "oh joe the merchant who always stayed in the city has dissapeared? He must have gone outside the city."
Quote from: "davien"As far as the all magickers are killed being propaganda - eh. Not really.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think all magickers are natural born killers who will destroy the world. Tulukies (and apparently you?) feel differently.
The beginning of Davien's post had me saying "no, you're wrong" but after continuing to read, I have to admit, there are some good points (there are also some bad) which shouldn't be overlooked.
There's more than one street named after a PC which was unquestionably a contrived phenomenon. Then again, so was the entire successful liberation of Tuluk. Of course that's a matter of opinion and any resonable argument explaining why you think this will be summarily silenced with the stock phrase "You don't know everything that is happening in-game", followed by "This is too IC sensitive to discuss". So we'll have to let this point go to those who rely on cheap defense tactics that refuse to consider even the possibility that they may be wrong.
Plantlife in the Grey Forest is supported, presumably, by underground lakes and rivers, but one has to ask how trees in the city, planted unnaturally for the sheer sake of decoration, receive their sustenance. What Davien said is true, water is still a scarce resource anywhere in the Known World, probably moreso in a city-state which doesn't rely on the magick conjuration of water as its opponent in the south does. So wouldn't this invoke the wrath of the hungry and impoverished (which Tuluk does have). This, coupled with the unrealistic import of wood (yes, wood is a resrouce in the North but it's still way way overdone currently) is what causes an abundance of players to make unrealistic remarks about life in Tuluk. I don't point the blame in these instances on the players, rather, the OOC design of the city.
Moreover, Tuluk, while fantastically written and far outshining Allanak's multitude of terse descriptions, has still been written a bit too .. beautifully. The Warrens and other areas have their fair share of "grime" but to the average Tuluki PC, decked out in his rich clan uniform with every required necessity in life accomodated for, first appearances are going to lend a lifelong impression that Tuluk is a magical wonderland of polished beauty.
Plus this whole Allanak "Walk in His Shadow", Tuluk "Walk in His Light" nonsense only serves to place Armageddon MUD alongside crap capitalist copyrighted series fantasy (such as Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc.) It resembles Good vs. Evil (rather than Corrupt vs. Corrupt) which is where comments about tree hugging stem from. It's this Allanak-black, Tuluk-white phenomenon which makes any of the true harshness, grit, and conflict unnoticable. Tuluk is seemingly a benevolent empire when compared to Allanak and I hope the players of Tuluk today are making continued effort to maintain strife within their city-state.
Bear in mind, I'm saying all of this and I think Allanak is deserving of far more criticism than Tuluk. But that doesn't mean Tuluk is freed from fault.
In my mind, the original idea of Tuluk vs Allanak is this: On first appearances nobody in their reasonable state of mind would chose to live in Allanak over Tuluk but once they chip past the initial layer (first appearances) one soon discovers that it's not such a nice place to live after all where corruption and aggression exist just as much as Allanak but of a different kind. Unfortunately, though this is a great idea it just doesn't work, the end result is that people will always say things like "Tuluk is beautiful and full of tree huggers" regardless of what may really be happening. This is a direct result of Tuluk's appearance. Tuluk should be a bit more .. flowery .. than Allanak, but in its present state it more closely resembles a wonderous faerie kingdom than a slightly resource-richer city-state in an otherwise apocalyptic, dessicated world.
I see the point in most of your post, Pantoufle, but I've always seen the 'Walk in His Light' thing in Tuluk as ironic. I think if citizens of Tuluk are lead to believe the whole good versus evil thing, then it's a wonderful display of Tuluki propaganda. Players certainly need to be more paranoid and violent (not directley, in terms of subtle threats and the hiring of assassins), and the noblility needs to be far more sinister. FAR more.
There's too many PCs in the what should be almost non-existent middle classes, too. When I first started playing arm I thought everbody who wasn't a noble would be two-bit mercenaries killing mothers for a cup of filthy water.
Quote from: "Spoon"There's too many PCs in the what should be almost non-existent middle classes, too. When I first started playing arm I thought everbody who wasn't a noble would be two-bit mercenaries killing mothers for a cup of filthy water.
The trouble with that is very few people want to play these sorts of roles. Most people play in a fantasy setting to escape the constraints of their real world by entering a ficticious realm which lacks the shackles of their day to day life. You ask most people how they'd feel about playing a fantasy based game where their character is illiterate, clad in raggedy garments and brainwashed by one oppresive monarchy or the other and 99% of the responses you can expect to get will be "Uh, no thanks". Because of this, most characters fall into that (should be small) middle class you're talking about.
Quote from: "Spoon"I see the point in most of your post, Pantoufle, but I've always seen the 'Walk in His Light' thing in Tuluk as ironic.
Not to mention somewhat sinister when you really think about it and consider the "flavor" of Tuluk. I think there are some valid criticisms of Tuluk in this thread (specifically in regards to room descriptions). I also agree that Tuluk is in need of a seedy underbelly and a good heap of Zalanthan grittiness. Of course, that lack can be explained by the fact that Tuluk was purged to cleanliness then rebuilt. It may take a little time for the grime to accumulate on that shiny new society. Keep in mind that Tuluk is a work in progress.
Quote from: "Pantoufle"You ask most people how they'd feel about playing a fantasy based game where their character is illiterate, clad in raggedy garments and brainwashed by one oppresive monarchy or the other and 99% of the responses you can expect to get will be "Uh, no thanks". Because of this, most characters fall into that (should be small) middle class you're talking about.
I agree. I refer you to the slave thread where recalcitrance against playing an unwilling slave, even for a short span of time is omnipresent.
Quote from: "Bakha"... Of course, that lack can be explained by the fact that Tuluk was purged to cleanliness then rebuilt. It may take a little time for the grime to accumulate on that shiny new society. Keep in mind that Tuluk is a work in progress.
That just doesn't work for me. And yes - I freely admit that a lot of my opinions may be baseless or misguided either due to lack of experience with something, or with a misperception. But rebellion is dirty and nasty and foul... What about all those desperate people who have no means to survive during a rebuilding?
The starving people without the skills to survive the wilds and acquire their own food? While the food merchant in the town is still constructing his stall, tracking down the hunters of his who have survived so that he can get back into business, people are starving, and many of them are likely resorting to crime. I don't care how much you love your government, if you're starving, you're going to do whatever it takes to survive.
I'd argue that Tuluk is -way- past this point. To the point where, not only is it rebuilt, but any possible criminal element has been completely sublimated. Shady things aren't hinted at ICly. They just don't exist unless you know about them OOC or you are part of them IC.
I should say that the main reason I am focusing on this is because I recently convinced my roommate to play arm with me after like 5 years of not playing at all... We started in Tuluk, and after two weeks, he's ready to quit the game.
He joins, we play together for a little bit.. then things get to be kind of dire. I had started in Luir's rather than Tuluk, and had no caste tattoos. He apped for his character more than 5 years ago (and it sat in the Hall of Kings until it was a septigenarian). He decided to try Tuluk but didn't take the caste tattoo because his background had none of it in it. I, not having played in so long, didn't realize this is a death sentence in Tuluk.
So we both go to Tuluk to play together. Forage is pretty bleak (he won't eat worms or bugs, and the roots don't quench his hunger), and then one day, I "disappear". So now he has no means for food at all, no money, and no clique. He tries unsuccessfully to find ways to get money. No one will talk to him. No one will hire him. He can't find a single thing that "analyze" will work on so that he can attempt to use his crafting skills. So now he thinks that Arm is just a game where everyone sits in a tavern whispering to each other.
There's no Byn presence he can find up north, and he's ready to log out forever when, at midnight, he has his gloves on and finally gets pulled into a clan. After a RL week in the clan, playing nearly every evening, he has not seen the outside of a sparring circle in more than a week now, our treks into the wilderness did not meet a single wild animal, and he says to me "Strife? Where's the harsh world of Zalanthas?". And he figures the only reason he's had a hard time is because he doesn't have an OOC clique to play with in game. He's sick of sparring, but no one is doing anything else. Talk is cheap.
I'm not saying that the experience is necessarily different in Allanak. I don't, frankly, believe it is. But if this is the experience a newbie sees on Arm, why do people still play?
I hear that Davien. I would suggest you and your friend to start in Allanak. The desert is harsh, the environment is more hostile than up north, but in Allanak, you two can join to Byn, get bitchslapped by templars, and if you two stay alive together, I bet your friend can adapt to the game world quickly.
Allanak, sometimes drive me nuts as well. Like sometimes a templar is not just harsh he is mad. Or a house has one guard only but like 6 aides and something. But still, I bet if you two stay alive in the given period, it would be easier for him to adapt to the game.
Quote from: "davien"
That just doesn't work for me. And yes - I freely admit that a lot of my opinions may be baseless or misguided either due to lack of experience with something, or with a misperception. But rebellion is dirty and nasty and foul... What about all those desperate people who have no means to survive during a rebuilding?
I agree to a degree. I think this was reflected somewhat during the rebuilding. There were refugee tents and squalor and all that sort of thing. As I conceded, though, the finished product of Tuluk might be overly sterile in description.
Quote
The starving people without the skills to survive the wilds and acquire their own food? While the food merchant in the town is still constructing his stall, tracking down the hunters of his who have survived so that he can get back into business, people are starving, and many of them are likely resorting to crime. I don't care how much you love your government, if you're starving, you're going to do whatever it takes to survive.
I'd argue that Tuluk is -way- past this point. To the point where, not only is it rebuilt, but any possible criminal element has been completely sublimated. Shady things aren't hinted at ICly. They just don't exist unless you know about them OOC or you are part of them IC.
As others have said, and I agree, the criminal underbelly of Tuluk is definitely a weak spot. All I can say, again, is that it's a work in progress. I know for a fact that there are staffers concerned with this, the problem is finding a way to work it into the game in a seamless, realistic fashion (yes I realize that there were other parts of Tuluk that were added without this concern) that continues to be maintanable and playable by PCs.
I mostly always only play in Tuluk.. I think I haven't played in Allanak in over 3-4 years, honestly.. I'm going to tell you why.. Please don't shoot me afterward :)
Tuluk is easy.. Tuluk is a great place to make easy money, to survive.. To meet people that aren't mostly bastards, to roleplay in a city where it's mostly empty of thieves that'll steal your weapons from your belt every five hours or so..
It's also empty of 'evil' templars.. Sure, you might tell me that templars act in a subtle way in the north, but I've yet to meet one that even seems hostile to me.. I'd even go as far as to say that, "Heck, Templars are pretty nice people once you get to know them.."
You sometime meet an elf PC.. Rarely you'll meet more than two or three in the north at the same time.. So when a wave of 'crimes' occur, that thief is often targetted and gone rather quickly.. So you go days or weeks without meeting another elf PC.. So life is pretty easy that way..
Second, in my YEARS of playing in the north, I have yet to 'meet' a magicker, a sorcerer, a psionist.. Oh, I know, you'll say you aren't supposed to 'meet' them, but I haven't even 'heard' of any of them being a threat to the north, being in the area, etc.. I haven't had any encounters, hostile or not, with them, is what I'm trying to say..
Trees are a joke.. Go a few leagues out of the city, cut down as many as you want, bring them back and sell the logs for cheaper than most things you'd pay for.. After living in Tuluk for many years, it's hard to start 'believing' that the world is a harsh place, and water is a prized thing.. I often carry 2-3 filled waterskins on me.
Now here comes the spoiler.. I'm not a big fan of the world of Armageddon, the way it's supposed to be.. I love Armageddon, the RPI, tho.. I think it's the best out there, but there's what, maybe two more RPIs to choose from? If you want great roleplaying, great code and a mature, amazing bunch of people to RP with, you come to Armageddon.. I'm just not a big fan or RPing harshness and struggling for my life on a daily basis.. So it's why I play on Tuluk. People are nice, life is easy..
Life IS easy, no matter what you tell me, like I've said, I played there for years, and I have a 40+ days character there.
If Tuluk suddenly vanished, I would still play Armageddon, and adapt. But until then, I think I prefer Tuluk.. But I agree, it's starting to be dull, in many ways, when I see 60+ players online, and I'm the only one sitting in the northern place to be, I find myself reading more and more about Allanak, and hoping I'll get to try it sooner than later.
Peace.
Gah! Now I have an urge to kill that Anonymous Kank's PC. ARGGH!
Whoa, I'm slightly suspicious that this Guest is Davien who manted to make his point clearer by attempting to argue for Tuluk in a manner the guest did.
I think this guests's 'pro-tuluk' post explained more flaws within Tuluk then all other anti-tuluk ones.
Folker
Quote from: "Anonymous"Whoa, I'm slightly suspicious that this Guest is Davien who manted to make his point clearer by attempting to argue for Tuluk in a manner the guest did.
I think this guests's 'pro-tuluk' post explained more flaws within Tuluk then all other anti-tuluk ones.
If I recall correctly, Davien is a she.
I might have said it already about three times in this thread, but Tuluk needs a serious injection of thieves and assassins. Tuluk should be up to its ears in both of these. The only assassins I've ever heard about in my roles there are magickers trying to kill the odd noble or templar, or random acts of violence in sleeping commons.
I might sound a little high fantasy, and I don't think it's the best thing to do, but think about this idea:
If Tuluk had some kind of guild or organisation for assassins, secret or not, would it be more the kind of Tuluk that's written about in the docs?
The thing at the moment is, how -do- you become an assassin in Tuluk? I have reason to believe there hasn't been a registered hit in RL years. I may be wrong, but it really should be far more frequent in a city where its semi legal.
Or perhaps a better idea is to start posting special roles for assassins, perhaps?
Or has anybody got any better ideas for upping assassination in Tuluk?(I haven't really thought about this much, it just came into my head)
Quote from: "Spoon"I might have said it already about three times in this thread, but Tuluk needs a serious injection of thieves and assassins.
I see what you're getting at, but I'm going to reword this slightly for
brevity's sake.
Tuluk does not need thieves and assassins. It needs a criminal underworld.
In a society where you can buy a thief or assassin like a household
service, what in your society is still a criminal act?
The answer is simple: Mages and psis.
I would suggest a criminal society of mages and/or psis in or around
Tuluk myself. Psis and sorcs are universally feared by the populace and
are difficult to keep in play around civilized areas, so that leaves...that's
right...elementalists.
Quite possibly, the last great criminal element (snark) left in Gol Krathu.
The thing with ideas is, it won't get implemented or worked on at all unless people actually do something about it IG. It's a fact, the Tuluki underworld needs some boost. Now that we've all said that about a dozen times, why not get IG, make a sneaky or even a high-powered noble with special interests, and help out those that -are- trying to do just that.
Heh. And while you're at it, try not to make another generic bard as your "cover". "Spice" it up abit. :lol:
Quote from: "Arbonne"The thing with ideas is, it won't get implemented or worked on at all unless people actually do something about it IG. It's a fact, the Tuluki underworld needs some boost. Now that we've all said that about a dozen times, why not get IG, make a sneaky or even a high-powered noble with special interests, and help out those that -are- trying to do just that.
Very true. Someone can make in-game history and leave a lasting legacy
on Gol Krathu by personally introducing the criminal element back into
what some consider to be faerieland. ;)
Just remember, it's a new society with new rules. Don't get stuck thinking
just in parameters of crime = thief classes. Think outside the box and
make it uniquely Tuluki.
Quote from: "Arbonne"The thing with ideas is, it won't get implemented or worked on at all unless people actually do something about it IG. It's a fact, the Tuluki underworld needs some boost. Now that we've all said that about a dozen times, why not get IG, make a sneaky or even a high-powered noble with special interests, and help out those that -are- trying to do just that.
Good luck to that guy who will try that. But it is tough. Tough to handle. Needs lots of time, patience and a lot other factors to actually do it. I think I can only say this much.
Quote from: "Davien"He decided to try Tuluk but didn't take the caste tattoo because his background had none of it in it. I, not having played in so long, didn't realize this is a death sentence in Tuluk.
That's definitely not true. Tuluk is home to countless tribals from outside the Gol Krathu, it would be heresy for them to wear caste tattoos since they were not born there. Tuluk is home to elves who have taken refuge in the city. Tuluk is home to southern traitors (they're practically renown for this). The mutants who assisted in the Liberation are not from Tuluk and, as such, also do not wear caste tattoos. Tuluk is home to a great deal of people, many of whom were never born and therefore do not possess Tuluki tattoos.
Davien, thank you for your well thought out posts. I enjoyed reading them.
I would personally love to see the more criminal side of Tuluk played out. But, for whatever reason, PCs simply don't try it.
Assassination is allowed. Yet, do PCs buy assassin's licenses? In all the time in Tuluk that I've played the only people who did so were my characters and a couple of their companions.
It may be that there are loads of licenses being bought but I don't think it's happening. I'm not certain as to the why this is. This is a perfectly reasonable method of population control - you don't like someone - hire an assassin.
If the assassination is successful then the templarate won't investigate fully. Sure they'll go through the process but there will be no conviction since it was all done above board.
I would hope that the nobles would be a driving force in assassinations and this type of plot but I haven't seen them doing this for a long time. I suspect people have a difficulty with wrapping their minds around going to the templarate and buying a license.
Tuluk just continues to go through its growing pains. As one aspect of Tuluk gets fleshed out others continue to languish and linger. I think Bards of the Circle have found their niche and are well handled. I think it is now time to start seeing PCs trying out the assassin route.
The systems are in place to allow this stuff to happen - that being templars who play regularly, licenses that can be bought, and documentation to back up that a license bought from a templar remains confidential. I suspect that players may be thinking that any license they bought will be revealed to everyone else and this is limiting them. Or, it may be that they are unaware that this is acceptable behavior. Perhaps it is a lack of characters who are willing to make the attempt at assassination.
Whatever it is, I think it is sad that this aspect of Tuluki culture and society isn't being fully exploited.
Further, I think Tuluk is ready for some PCs to make a serious try at a criminal organization - perhaps an assassin's guild, perhaps a thieve's guild, perhaps a seedy-under-belly magicker nest. Whatever it is - there is room and opportunity for it to happen. I believe these things have been attempted on a couple of times but thus far nothing has stuck (to the best of my knowledge).
Tuluk is a city that still has ample opportunity to shape and create. When someone feels something is missing in Tuluk then, usually, it is because it actually _is_ missing and the opportunity is there to create it.
The Byn is a good example - I believe there is a Byn compound in Tuluk but I do not think the Byn is making use of it for whatever reason. I can see no reason why someone who thinks the Byn should become active in the North wouldn't app a Byn character with the awesome Byn imms and start it up again. Perhaps the flavor of the Byn in the north would be a bit different than that in the south (not as obnoxiously stupid for example - sorry Bynners - I love you but being rude, obnoxious, and silly wouldn't fit in with Tuluk's personality) but it is very doable. A mercenary doesn't have to be a disgustingly base, nose-picking, swearing, in-your-face, obnoxious brat.
To all the Bynners who break that particular mold - way to go. I love you guys the most. For all the Bynners that play that role perfectly - I love you too. It works, it fits, and it's great for Allanak. For Tuluk, they could be rude and arrogant if they so wanted but the base behaviors and mannerisms would probably be a bit more 'refined' or subtle.. lol.. sorry, couldn't resist. Instead of blatantly stating so and so is a kank-fucker a more insidious hint of them sexing up magickers would work just as well. You can be very very dangerous and give that appearance without being in your face about it.
Anyway, I'm rambling... What I love about Tuluk is that fact that it isn't fully complete. There is a lot missing and all it will take are some dedicated PCs to filling out these missing bits. A lot of the organizations that existed in Old Tuluk weren't recreated (such as the criminal groups) and there's still a void waiting to be filled.
Quote from: "Pantoufle"Quote from: "Davien"He decided to try Tuluk but didn't take the caste tattoo because his background had none of it in it. I, not having played in so long, didn't realize this is a death sentence in Tuluk.
That's definitely not true. Tuluk is home to countless tribals from outside the Gol Krathu, it would be heresy for them to wear caste tattoos since they were not born there. Tuluk is home to elves who have taken refuge in the city. Tuluk is home to southern traitors (they're practically renown for this). The mutants who assisted in the Liberation are not from Tuluk and, as such, also do not wear caste tattoos. Tuluk is home to a great deal of people, many of whom were never born and therefore do not possess Tuluki tattoos.
Yes, Tuluk might be a home for these people, but they won't be getting anywhere far without some sort of protection that caste tattoos would normally have provided. Pretty much caste tattoos are an integral part of the Tuluki society, and those without it are likely to be considered outcasts.
Quote from: "Anonymous"I mostly always only play in Tuluk.. I think I haven't played in Allanak in over 3-4 years, honestly.. I'm going to tell you why.. Please don't shoot me afterward :) ...........
Wow. All I can say is that you have had a very different experience then I. An extremely different experience.
I
could refute every single point you made, but I won't. I'll just leave it at "that isn't how Tuluk has been for me."
Having said that, I'm definitely willing to admit crime needs work.
A new crime clan should definitely be kicked off by those who love Tuluk
the most, imo. Those are going to be the northland fanatics who really
make the new org come to life.
Remember the large amounts of Tuluk fans posting to this board. As
attrition kills off your current pcs, you might consider banding together to
add a new facet to the game.
The main reason that things are the way they are in Tuluk is because of the players, not for any reason IC. I think we've gotten to a point where it's fairly understood that there's an IC reason behind most things that are in Tuluk.
I keep hearing about cliques in the posts in this thread. This is not something that could be changed on an IC level. I don't really understand and can't comment any further because I don't feel like I've ever experienced any 'cliques' IC. Unless a character having a group of friends or associates is considered a clique, in which case I wouldn't understand why it was a bad thing... it'd be totally IC.
The reason there is no magick underbelly, no underworld crime, not many licensed hits, is because no one is playing those characters. If you want to see the crime in Tuluk spike, make a northern thief. If you want to see magick spike, make a northern 'gicker. One thing I have noticed about Tuluk is that chars come and go in trends. If someone tried to pull it off, and they could do it successfully, I guarantee that a group of players would make those sorts of chars to fill those roles.
An example of this is that a trend in Tuluk is Bards. There are ten thousand, four hundred, and eighty-one bards in Tuluk right now. People realized that if Bards are fun to be around, they must be twice as much fun to play. So make an underworld char, and make it fun to be around. The fad will follow you.
Not having a caste tattoo is not a death sentence. Tuluk has tribal roots and likely, tribal PCs are not going to be killed. Also, a southron is a probably not going to be killed, at least not for not having the caste tattoos. However, if you aren't a citizen, every little thing you do is going to be amplified.
Quote from: "Citizenship Docs"From the perspective of the Templars, however, comes the most important aspect of citizenship. Justice may be applied very differently to citizens and non-citizens, meaning the difference between a short stay in the dungeons and instant death.
The reason there are so many middle class characters in Tuluk is not because of Tuluk... but because that's what people are playing, and they are free to do so. As far as I'm concerned, this is a game. Play the kind of role you want to play in the city you want to play in. There's realism, but there's also playabilty. I'm not going to play the Tuluki equivalent of a 'rinth rat-- you know why? I don't want to. If you want to play an ugly, dirty, smelly, mean, bitchy, lazy begger, then go ahead. Like I said, spark a trend.
Marko, let me start off by saying I enjoyed your post and thought it made some very accurate points. There was one thing in particular, though, that I think illustrates why some people make some of the complaints about Tuluk not being harsh, gritty, etc.
Let me also preface this by saying I've never played in the Byn, just around them.
Quote from: "marko"The Byn is a good example - I believe there is a Byn compound in Tuluk but I do not think the Byn is making use of it for whatever reason. I can see no reason why someone who thinks the Byn should become active in the North wouldn't app a Byn character with the awesome Byn imms and start it up again. Perhaps the flavor of the Byn in the north would be a bit different than that in the south (not as obnoxiously stupid for example - sorry Bynners - I love you but being rude, obnoxious, and silly wouldn't fit in with Tuluk's personality) but it is very doable. A mercenary doesn't have to be a disgustingly base, nose-picking, swearing, in-your-face, obnoxious brat.
To all the Bynners who break that particular mold - way to go. I love you guys the most. For all the Bynners that play that role perfectly - I love you too. It works, it fits, and it's great for Allanak. For Tuluk, they could be rude and arrogant if they so wanted but the base behaviors and mannerisms would probably be a bit more 'refined' or subtle.. lol.. sorry, couldn't resist. Instead of blatantly stating so and so is a kank-fucker a more insidious hint of them sexing up magickers would work just as well. You can be very very dangerous and give that appearance without being in your face about it.
I read those things in bold, and I said: BINGO. Perceptions like that are why people say Tuluk is happy treehuggy fun land, without the grit that many people feel Zalanthas is supposed to be.
My question is: Why can't Byn mercenaries in Tuluk be every bit as much of the shit-shoveling, ale-swigging, foul-mouthed hooligans they are in Allanak?
Tuluk and Allanak are both BIG cities. They both have their own high society, cultured elements, which is where I would expect most of their differences to be readily apparent (and they are). On the other hand, they both also have their low society elements, and I would expect the differences here to be far less pronounced.
IMO, Tuluk can and should have gritty, drunken mercenaries. It should not be a society where nobody is ever rude, obnoxious, and silly. It has a whole three taverns which could support this type of element, which rarely get used. Tuluk should not be seen as a "more refined" city than Allanak just because everybody is playing a rich PC or bard and hangs out at the Sanctuary.
(Now, of course, the rude, obnoxious, and stupid people probably do not want to interact with the upper classes more than they ever have to, at risk of being disappeared. This too is like Allanak. You don't see Byn Runners swilling ale near Lady Borsail in the Trader's. You shouldn't see them swilling spice ale near Lady Winrothol in the Sanctuary, either. But Tuluk definitely has room for ale-swillers
somewhere. I'd like to see more of them.)
Jherlen makes a very good point.
From reading this thread, I believe the two main problems in Tuluk are:
1) a lack of a well-established criminal world
2) a lack of lower class PCs
Encouraging growth in those areas may help represent Tuluk as it "should" be.
Quote from: "Jherlen"
My question is: Why can't Byn mercenaries in Tuluk be every bit as much of the shit-shoveling, ale-swigging, foul-mouthed hooligans they are in Allanak?
The answer it is how Tuluk has developed due to its history and how its nobility acts.
To preface, no one is saying you cannot be rude in Tuluk nor can you be obnoxious it is just that it takes a different form.
Now, why is this the case? Because Tuluk was taken over by Allanak and occupied. For a period of forty years Tuluk suffered from Allanak's grip, Allanak's control, and Allanak's forced culture.
The moment this oppression was cast aside Tuluk changed. The citizens of Tuluk did everything they could to differentiate themselves from Allanak. This meant that where Allanak is bold, brutal, and in-your-face Tuluk became subtle, malicious, and backstabbing.
This type of belief-set is systemic in Tuluk. Is it a more polite society? I don't think so. I just think that Tuluk is different in how it portays being rude.
People grow up in Tuluk surrounded by this and they do what they can to keep this going. Will it change over time? Quite possibly.
QuoteIMO, Tuluk can and should have gritty, drunken mercenaries. It should not be a society where nobody is ever rude, obnoxious, and silly.
Again, I'm not saying that this is not the case. It is simply how people would go about doing it. Being rude in Tuluk leads to being killed. Either by being dissapeared by the templarate or by being assassinated by the person you were rude to. This instills a pretty basic understanding that being overtly obnoxious is a way to die.
In Allanak it is easy to be rude. Pull out a weapon, get into a brawl, throw your beer into someone's face, swear a lot, insult their mother and the skinny she mated with... whatever.
In Tuluk, it's a little different. If you do any of this stuff overtly you can expect to find an assassin coming after you. This makes people more careful. This leads to a different set of methods of being rude and obnoxious. This doesn't mean that Tuluki citizens don't swear or anything like that - it's just a different manner.
QuoteIt has a whole three taverns which could support this type of element, which rarely get used. Tuluk should not be seen as a "more refined" city than Allanak just because everybody is playing a rich PC or bard and hangs out at the Sanctuary.
I agree with this. Tuluk's population isn't richer per se (although I may think about this comment a bit more since in allanak the rich have only gotten richer and the poor have become ever more poorer whereas in Tuluk it seems that there is a broader 'middle class' that exists) - but it does make an attempt to not be as "base" as Allanak's. But even the most simple of gatherer can endeavor to be more refined than one in Allanak. The life style, the culture, the environment, and the history of the two places are significantly different to produce significantly different people.
Quote(Now, of course, the rude, obnoxious, and stupid people probably do not want to interact with the upper classes more than they ever have to, at risk of being disappeared. This too is like Allanak. You don't see Byn Runners swilling ale near Lady Borsail in the Trader's. You shouldn't see them swilling spice ale near Lady Winrothol in the Sanctuary, either. But Tuluk definitely has room for ale-swillers somewhere. I'd like to see more of them.)
Again, I agree with the last sentiment. But, the first part is a bit off in my view - even commoners can hire assassins to kill one another. In fact, this is where it would be most... common. As for how the noble caste and common caste interact - it is a symbiotic relationship. The noble caste depends upon the common caste and the common caste, in turn, depends upon the noble caste. Because of this, the noble caste and the common caste mingle freely and regularly. Therefore, I would argue, that if there was a need of a noble for an ale-swiller then you'd see them swilling their ales together in whichever pub they care to. Everyone in Tuluk knows the castes. There's no need to artificially reinforce them by seperation of people like in Allanak (written, of course, from a Tuluki viewpoint).
In Tuluk it doesn't matter what caste one is there is no preferential treatment as to who gets dissapeared. A commoner interacting with a commoner is as likely to dissapear as a commoner interacting with a noble. There are rumors of nobles dissapearing as well. Dissapearing is what happens to people who step out of line. Assassination is what happens to people who upset other people.
Will Tuluk have its grunts? Absolutely. Will it have mercenaries? Certainly. Will it have shit shovelers? Of course. Will these people act the same way as they would if they were in Allanak? I don't think so.
I think that they would make their own attempt at being 'subtle' and 'clever.' Would they be successful? Probably not really. Simple people tend to be simple people.
Their feuds would spill over and make use of assassins (assassination is very affordable). Would someone who runs up to another person and spits at them be ridiculed? Yup. Would someone who uses a lot of swearing and cussing be looked down upon by their peers? Yep - again because this is perceived to be an Allanaki lifestyle choice.
In the end, I think people have taken the whole subtle bit to its extreme (which is natural for an evolving and budding culture) and have tossed being rude completely out the window. Rudeness would exist. It'd just take a different form.
Tuluk isn't about being friendly and hugging one another. Tuluk is about being just enough paranoid that you don't offend the wrong person. By all means, offend the right people as much as you want. There's no need to pull punches but remember... there are assassins, there are neighbors who are watching your every move and word and are ready to report anything to the templarate, and there are persistant rumors of being vanished for stepping out of line.
Again, I think Marko makes very good points.
My concern is that, for PCs, the way things are currently is not the way Marko has described them.
I would LOVE to see people being assassinated more commonly in Tuluk for being rude, being uncouth, being obnoxious, etc. Unfortunately right now I don't think this is the case. If it were, I could buy into Marko's argument a whole lot more.
I agree with Delerium that what Tuluk seems to need a deeper society with more lower class PCs, and a more established criminal element (both sanctioned and unsanctioned, I'd think.)
---
A tangential argument (probably one for another thread) would be about the frequency of assassinations in Tuluk. Licenses cost money, and killing people isn't always easy. I'm curious if Joe the Tuluki Baker would be able to afford hiring an assassin to kill Jane the Tuluki Butcher. Would the assassins capable of pulling off kills be beyond his budget? Hiring professional thieves to disrupt a business or a person's life seems more feasible for the lower classes.
Quote from: "Jherlen"... Unfortunately right now I don't think this is the case. If it were, I could buy into Marko's argument a whole lot more.
I agree with Delerium that what Tuluk seems to need a deeper society with more lower class PCs, and a more established criminal element (both sanctioned and unsanctioned, I'd think.)
I'm in agreement as well. This is a part of Tuluk that still needs fleshing from a player perspective. There is a huge opportunity to shape generations of Tulukis by working on this now.
When I talk about this stuff I tend to speak of more how I see Tuluk as opposed to how it necessarily is at the moment. I hope that, somehow, my vision slips out and becomes the reality of the player base. :)
QuoteLicenses cost money, and killing people isn't always easy. I'm curious if Joe the Tuluki Baker would be able to afford hiring an assassin to kill Jane the Tuluki Butcher. Would the assassins capable of pulling off kills be beyond his budget? Hiring professional thieves to disrupt a business or a person's life seems more feasible for the lower classes.
Licenses aren't that expensive. Although, I would guess that assassins would charge however much they wish to charge and you get what you pay for. Conversely, a commoner is just a commoner and therefore probably isn't hugely difficult to kill. So the price would be kept low. I'd guess that the costs would be well under a thousand 'sid - maybe even a couple hundred 'sid or lower depending on the target (of course higher would exist as well). I agree with the professional thieves bit as well - another great way to get back at someone without necessarily killing them.
Hire a thief to plague some guy, steal all their stuff, etc etc. Good Tuluki way of revenge that doesn't involve death.
QuoteSo the price would be kept low. I'd guess that the costs would be well under a thousand 'sid - maybe even a couple hundred 'sid or lower depending on the target (of course higher would exist as well).
Part of the problem with getting people assassinated. It's never kept this low, because even the most lowly, unimportant target carries the risk of getting caught and destroyed, despite the fact it really shouldn't matter to most.
Quote from: "Armaddict"
Part of the problem with getting people assassinated. It's never kept this low, because even the most lowly, unimportant target carries the risk of getting caught and destroyed, despite the fact it really shouldn't matter to most.
Typically when PCs are involved they wish to assassinate important people (tm). People like aides, servants, merchants, nobles, even templars. With the risk of the kill the cost would naturally go up.
If someone was unaffiliated and a nobody the cost shouldn't be high at all. But, if someone is, for example, the aide of a noble then you'd be looking at a greater risk and thus a higher price.
Quote from: "Armaddict"
Part of the problem with getting people assassinated. It's never kept this low, because even the most lowly, unimportant target carries the risk of getting caught and destroyed, despite the fact it really shouldn't matter to most.
The thing is, a good assassin would have a good name, meaning he wouldn't have been caught, or at least caught easily. So, if a commoner wanted to take out another low commoner, he might be able to afford a cheap assassin, but there's a risk that the assassin would be caught and spill out who hired him. On the other hand, to better ensure this doesn't happen, it would cost the commoner more coins. Pretty much, the better the name of the assassin is, the more expensive the services will be. That goes the same with thieves.
I like tuluk.
'Nuff said.
My only bite with anybody is.. if you want to play in tuluk and experience it from that point of view, stop making southerners to play up north and play a krath-struck northerner like intended.
Quote from: "Anonymous"Whoa, I'm slightly suspicious that this Guest is Davien who manted to make his point clearer by attempting to argue for Tuluk in a manner the guest did.
I think this guests's 'pro-tuluk' post explained more flaws within Tuluk then all other anti-tuluk ones.
Folker
No, because unlike you Tuluki pisswits, I see no reason to hide behind anonymity. ;) (kidding - I just am not a big fan of posting anon unless by accident, and I'll sign it.)
Quote from: "Pantoufle"
Quote from: "Davien"
He decided to try Tuluk but didn't take the caste tattoo because his background had none of it in it. I, not having played in so long, didn't realize this is a death sentence in Tuluk.
That's definitely not true....
Ok, there were so many people who refused to hire you, solicit your services, or even TALK to you because you didn't have a caste tattoo, it was a death sentence.
And for people who are working under the blind assumption that asshole templars only exist in the South, let me correct that right now. I can't say any more about it except that the Tuluki templar I met made Allanaki templars look like patrons of finesse, manners, and guile.
Quote from: "Arbonne"
Yes, Tuluk might be a home for these people, but they won't be getting anywhere far without some sort of protection that caste tattoos would normally have provided. Pretty much caste tattoos are an integral part of the Tuluki society, and those without it are likely to be considered outcasts.
I remember one great pc that climbed up as far as a commoner can go on the social ladder - without caste tattoos.
This should really be fine iof you wear gloves and something about your neck so it's not too obvious.
Quote from: "Arbonne"Yes, Tuluk might be a home for these people, but they won't be getting anywhere far without some sort of protection that caste tattoos would normally have provided. Pretty much caste tattoos are an integral part of the Tuluki society, and those without it are likely to be considered outcasts.
You are mistaken. The mutants who assisted in the Liberation of Tuluk frequetly act as militia. Because they do not have ancestral roots in the Gol Krathu they cannot and will not wear Tuluki caste tattoos. The same could be said of rebels and Blackmoon raiders who assisted in the Liberation, many of whom are not from the city proper. Despite this, they seem to have a respectable status within the city-state. Furthermore, southern traitors who work for Tuluk are capable of achieving a relatively high status (as has happened with many PCs in game). Generally, those without tattoos are perceived as outsiders, yes, and as such they probably aren't always received in a very positive light by the locals, but that's not true in every scenario, as is evidenced in the irrifutible examples listed above.
Besides which, that isn't the point. Someone said that you will be killed for not having these tattoos in Tuluk and I only wish to point out that this isn't even remotely close to being true.
A big problem with starting a criminal underbelly in Tuluk is the logistics. Allanaki criminal activity is always propped up by the fact that when all else fails, you can deal in spice and hide in the 'rinth. Tuluk on the other hand has almost nothing short of magical goods that can get you in trouble, and dealing with magik is not really a healthy way to make a full time job in Tuluk. You basically are left with thievery, extortion, and assassination in terms of criminal activities. All three of the above are HARD. Tuluk makes these things even harder.
In Allanak, if heat builds you can always lay low in the commons, slam back a few brews in your favorite 'rinth tavern, smoke some spice, and wait for the Templar of the week die. Inside the 'rinth, the law is really only going to get its hands on you if you managed to piss them off enough to hire a thug to come kick your ass. Even then, a thug is likely to piss someone off making blood stains doing Templar work in an owned tavern.
Tuluk on the other hand really lacks a suitable place for criminals. Yes, I know that Tuluk has its "seedy" areas, but these areas are nothing like the 'rinth. To be a truly "seedy" area, it needs to be a no-go zone for the law and have a place to socialize and do business (a tavern). If it doesn't have those two things in the same spot, it isn't an effective seedy area. In a MUD where all it takes is a PC to be within a room or two of you to make an instant identification, no-go areas where shadies can meet are absolutely vital. It is far too easy for a single determined militiaman to search an entire city in under a day.
To add insult to injury, the lack of a good 'seedy' area makes it damn near impossible to put together a crew. It is damn hard put together a crew in Allanak even though it has a great no-go area and effective socialization spots. Tuluk lacks these places to build a crew, and to make matters worse, has almost no influx of criminals. Collecting like minded criminals into an organization in Tuluk is like trying to fill sieve with a faucet that just drips once ever minute. You are probably better off to import Southern talent the find the homegrown version.
Now, let's pretend you can gather a crew and find a spot where the militia will not be constantly breathing down your back. Now what? Well, like I said, you have thievery, extortion, and assassination open as business ventures. Of those three, two of those involve murdering (or at least threatening) to murder someone. The crime code is pretty much insta-kill in Tuluk with no hope of escape to a safer place, so you need to conduct all of your activities in such a way that the crime code isn't activated.
Simply put, from a purely OOC perspective, criminal activity in Tuluk is a tall order. In a place with almost no PC city elves, very few criminals, and the ability to make large wads of cash off the environment, finding people willing to take on risky activity is hard. Replacing people lost in the attraction that any criminal group faces is even harder, especially when running high risk operations.
In order to pull this off it takes two, probably three things. First, there are some OOC logistical issues that need to be resolved. There needs to be a tavern in a no-go zone that any n00b criminal can find with an ounce of common sense. There needs to be a very strong leader with the patience of a saint to build a crew and keep them from suicide/stupid deaths.
Finally, it needs strong imm support[/b]. It needs Kurac or Byn level imm support. It needs an NPC that steps in to rebuild once everyone else is dead. It needs an imm that will implement criminal activity outside of the coded norms. If the clan needs a room to spar in, someone needs to build it. If the clan needs the ability to pay off soldiers to "take a break" to make a section of street not crime coded at a certain time on a particular night to convince a certain merchant to pay his protection money, an imm needs to do it. The crime code is too harsh and the criminals far too few to do the Allanaki style "kill a thousand criminals and the 5 people who survive form a semi-long lasting clan".
People will say that PCs should build this from scratch without imm support. Bullocks I say. The only PCs that can do this are people that have 12 hours a day to blow in a game, a massive understanding of the game, organizational experience, and the patience of a saint. So that narrows it down to like 5 players, none of which I even know if they still actively play. If the imms really want Tuluk to have this niche, it is going to have to be built like any other imm run clan.
*All this is based upon my criminal experience in Allanak and my knowledge of Tuluk crime code / layout which (admittedly) is dated and could be inaccurate.
~Rindan The "on a break and just checking in, but is starting to feel addiction rise, but really has no time, but might try and make time by completely cutting out sleep to feed Armageddon addiction"
Those are pretty good points, Rindan.
I think the criminal setup in Allanak and Tuluk should be reversed, based on what you've said. In Allanak, the very nature of the Labyrinth and what's illegal in the city means that any criminal organization could be easily setup with PCs alone and little to no staff intervention (the Labyrinth doesn't need a coded crime clan in order for its criminal activity to thrive). Whereas the setup of Tuluk may need coded support if it's ever to reach the desired criminal level. The flipside of the argument, however is that this may be intentional. In a sense, Tuluk's templars is the city's "Thieves Guild". If you live in a city where stealing is practically legalized (note I said practically), then the only way this could work without the entire economy crumbling into ruin would be if the crime was not only monitored by the government, but also controlled by them as well. In that sense, criminals need neither a place to run and hide, nor to setup a coded criminal organization. Furthermore, if you think the North is so fruitful for hunters, try playing a thief in Tuluk. It can be even more fruitful! So there's plenty of reason for people to want to play a thief up there. I just think the style of thief most players want to play is the slumming ghetto dwelling cutthroat (your standard Allanaki fare) over a sly, gentlemanly rogue (which may be a description better attributed to Tuluk's type of thief).
Arguably, there are places for the seedy type to lay low in Tuluk. Primarily, the ruins. But the terrain of the ruins makes it unenjoyable even on an OOC level. There is also something to be said for Under Tuluk but, again, simply getting there is a tiresome chore. The Labyrinth is easily accessible to the rest of Allanak, Under Tuluk is not easily accessible to the rest of Tuluk.
*cough this thread needs to be locked so i'll drive the nail, since I generally kill threads cough*
Tuluk is awesome, period.
In nak' you got your true grit, you're flamboyant acts of brutality, your spitting bynners, and your templars that often enie menie miny moe a patron to dismember out of a crowd. Then drag them off with 15 half giant guards. Awesome that's Allanak.
In Tuluk, you got your true grit, then you got flamboyant bards, your spitting bynners, and your templars that often enie menie miny moe a patron to dismember out of a crowd. Then subtly make them dissapear a week later.
Awesome that's Tuluk.
Well -- yeah it's safe to say they're different, but it's a good kind of different. You're in different playing fields, aspects of the world. Tuluk's culture is just as gritty, plenty of people get whacked every day. Fights happen just as they happen in 'nak, and more than enough shit gets talked. Does it take away from the game? No, players? Hell no. Simply put -- you don't like Tuluk, keep your ass in Luir's Redstorm, Allanak, or wherever you're pro-active, no one is forcing you to play there.
Tuluk is the way it is for a reason, it will stay that way *thumbs up, and waves*
-Fight
I agree, FightClub.
I think the root of people's animosity towards Tuluk is it's style and flair. These people seem to be of the belief that every single facet of the game must be described as 100% dirty, gruesome, and abysmal without any shread of culture whatsoever. Their logic is that this equates to "harsh". Yet think back to the Ottoman Empire. These were the very people who invented the idea of impalement, mind you! They lived in a wickedly corrupt society, with everyone from the lowliest beggar to the richest nobleman struggling to survive. Yet their culture was one of the richest the world over. They invented the Turkish Bath, for chrissake! The anti-Tuluk players would hear that and say "Oh, they're wusses, they're not harsh".
Though I'm one of the first people to criticize Tuluk for its faults, I'm not a member of this virtual "I Hate Tuluk Club" which seems to exist. PKilling equals harsh, to these people, and any other form of competition or attack is for pansy wusses. Did you know that gith sometimes settle disputes with a challenge of storytelling? *gasp* You mean they don't always KILL? What wusses, burn them along with Tuluk, right? That's what the members of the "I Hate Tuluk Club" must be thinking according to their own logic.
I think the North exists for all of the reasons stated above. ArmageddonMUD is a game which requires a MINIMUM, a BARE minimum of 4 lines for a description. I've known players apply for gladiator PCs (back when the arena was open) and have their application rejected because it wasn't in depth enough, so the imm sent them to go expand on their concept. Now here's a character who may only live for 10 minutes and he's being asked to expand on his character concept! Furthermore, this is a game where RP is not suggested but required. Many of our players come from MUSHes (the source of absolute RP and storytelling). It's only natural that somewhere in this game there should be an outlet for players that wish to focus on something besides kill, kill, kill, dirt, dirt, dirt. If the members of the "I Hate Tuluuk Club" actually got what they wanted (Tuluk's destruction), they'd likely see the playerbase diminish as a result. Arm needs a source for players who want to play something besides a one-eyed, stinky barrel-chested oaf of a mercenary. Even in the harsh environment of this game, there should be room for people who want to play something besides brute murderers. After a while, it starts to sound like what most people are asking for is the game to be one big version of the Labyrinth. What a shame some people are opposed to variety.
The root of the whole Tuluk Doesn't Fit w/the Rest of the Game argument is based on the misconception that attributes such as civility, class, and style cannot exist in a harsh environment. Thankfully, they actually can exist in a harsh environment and despite all of Tuluk's flaws, I don't think this is one of them.
Good post, Fight Club.
One flaw about Tuluk (or rather, any other place with a similar situation) can be traced to its playerbase. If there aren't enough criminals to begin with, there won't be any organized crime groups formed, if there aren't enough hunters, no hunter groups form. In Allanak, at least from my observation, not only does it have a relatively large playerbase (including the rinth) there is also a larger density of players. In Tuluk, because the taverns and local meeting places can be so spread out, even during peek times except on those days when everyone flocks to the Sancuary, you won't find very many PCs.
First, good posts Fightclub and Pantoufle. But I'd like to remind you both that Allanak isn't purely about grit. It's about grit and opulence. It's about class tensions and inherent conflict. It's about trying to claw your way up in social standing or getting offed on the way for showing too much ambition. But it can also be about struggling to survive under oppression and about striking back at your rich oppressors. And in no way is Allanak confined to death for punishment or challenge, but the option is always on the table.
My opinion of Tuluk is that it's a great concept. A fantasy version of 1984. But what it lacks (in my limited experience, take all this lightly) is the oppression of a dystopia. People genuinely seem happy to be in Tuluk and are proud of their culture. Most PCs seem to be in a healthy middle class, chilling at the Sanctuary and maybe even chatting it up with a Chosen Lord. I'm sure there's conflict like many people have said in this and other threads but there seems to be very little struggle going on. Struggle is what I love about Allanak, anything else just seems bland in comparison.
Eventually I plan on making another Tuluki character with the express purpose of learning its culture better and trying to play it well. But continuously that concept gets delayed for me because Allanak just feels right. I realize this isn't for everyone but I for one just never want to see Tuluk as a purely bland, happy city that mirrors your typical fantasy world. Maybe it doesn't and I'm just missing the big picture but perhaps it does need a little more Murder, Corruption and Betrayal going on.
IMHO opinion, the difference is that conflict in Tuluk is not that much visible. Class tensions and inherent conflict? Indeed, it is in Allanak. And indeed, it is in Tuluk as well. The difference is that in Tuluk it might take you more time to notice it and understand what is going on.
Oh yes, I like Tuluk, you know. :)
There are great posts here, just wanted to a bit my opinion.
Two Observations:
- As it is said many times, Tuluk is new, and still under construction.
- Tuluk slightly lacks struggle between merchant houses / noble houses / Jihaens / Lirathans. Main reason for lack of struggle is, they all recently formed a city from almost nothing. There was a large pie to cook and share, currently regarding Tenneshi vs. Winrothol relation, they all happy to get their good piece of pie.
I am away from Tuluk for a few months, but I think the solution would be really IMM based. Those houses should ask more and more from City. Their general focus would be getting more rather then preserving their area of control. One may claim that's already what is done, but I had chance to play in almost all castes of Tuluk, but did not see that. Also, I do not think that's something players can change a general overview/ agressiveness of a House, it is something should be done or guided from above.
/A little detrailment/
Current struggle points.
Magickers vs. Tuluk (That's awesome and creates many plots)
Tenneshi vs. Winrothol (This sometimes get quite, but knowing there are many tools for conflict, not only licensed assasination/thievery but also organizations like bardic competions.. Very fruitful struggle)
Lacking as I humbly observed:
Between Merchant Houses
Lirathan Order vs. Jihaen Order vs. Noble Houses (Noble Houses are much stronger in Tuluk then in 'nak)
PS. Lack of criminal organization.. With criminal licensing from Templarate , Templars are (have great chance to become) criminal leaders with being patron of commoner/slave underlings. :)
Going back to Rindan's post...
I thought this was sort of amusing at first. Tuluk DOES have a place for shady types to congregate and gather. It may not be as obvious or as accessible as the rinth, but it IS definitely there.
Crime is legal in Tuluk if you have the right licenses. If you get permission you can be a sanctioned thief or assassin. Doesn't it follow that, shielded by custom and law, it should be easier for Tuluki criminals to operate than in Allanak? Unless you meant criminals who didn't go through the licensing procedures, but why wouldn't you?
Like so many other things, you have to take a different mindset when thinking of Tuluki crime, I think. Tuluki criminals are not your shady elves skulking in the rinth and avoiding templars and militia like the plague. They're everyday citizens who take up a riskier business and get contracts and licenses for their work, effectively getting permission to steal and kill.
I wouldn't want to see Tuluk's layout or theme changed. All that it needs to start up a successful group of "professionals" is a long-lived PC with the ability and charisma to get it done.
Quote from: "ale six"Crime is legal in Tuluk if you have the right licenses. If you get permission you can be a sanctioned thief or assassin. Doesn't it follow that, shielded by custom and law, it should be easier for Tuluki criminals to operate than in Allanak? Unless you meant criminals who didn't go through the licensing procedures, but why wouldn't you?
Not quite so. Being licensed, you might still end up pissing off your local templarate or militia. For example, what happens when you need to buy a license for a noble? And that noble is a favorite of a templar? You probably will not get the license, or you will end up pissing your templar for going after the guy he likes. And what is worse, what happens if that noble suddenly dies to an accident? Now you are in trouble, for asking for a license that is over your head, and that your target is dead.
Something like this did happen to me in game. My PC was asked for a certain PC to kill. I asked for the license on the target and was quite shocked at the price on the licence. My target was not a noble, not a merchant, not somebody rich, not somebody important, loved nor even cared as far as I know. It was just a simple boy, yet I found out the templar actually likes that boy quite a lot for the price of the license was three times more than the price I would get from my employer. Three times. Well, I could pay the money, and I did, but imagine it if it was not just a simple boy but a known merchant, or bard, or noble. Perhaps the templar would just kill my PC for even asking a license on someone he likes that much.
There are other kinds of need for staying away from militia also exists. Licensed crime is accepted so long the criminal is a professional. But what if he is not a pro, and he sucks once in a while? An amateur surely would not be all too good in relationship with his local militia.
So there is an option for going unlicensed. Or more likely, there is actually a reason to have a safe haven somewhere away from militia.
Quote from: "ale six"I thought this was sort of amusing at first. Tuluk DOES have a place for shady types to congregate and gather. It may not be as obvious or as accessible as the rinth, but it IS definitely there.
Not quite. I know the place you are talking about, but it is nowhere near to be called a safe haven. First it is so painful to even get there, and second, it is painful to even stay there. Not a safe haven, not even close to the offers of the labyrinth.
I am with Rindan here, that on the criminal side, Tuluk lacks the criminal ground. A character of mine did attempt to start organised crime in Tuluk. Our first goal was to find a safe haven, and second was to find a way to make a living. As it stands, the only two criminal tools in Tuluk are the licensed assassination and thievery. And it is not everyday, people hire an assassin to get someone killed or something to be stolen, so making a living through that way was giving me headaches. Not to mention, the initial bribes and buying off the licenses at the start made a bad start. It could be done, if I had more patience, and if I had more time. But it did not go the way I expected it to go.
Quote from: "Ghost"
Not quite so. Being licensed, you might still end up pissing off your local templarate or militia. For example, what happens when you need to buy a license for a noble? And that noble is a favorite of a templar? You probably will not get the license, or you will end up pissing your templar for going after the guy he likes. And what is worse, what happens if that noble suddenly dies to an accident? Now you are in trouble, for asking for a license that is over your head, and that your target is dead.
I would hope that this type of situation would no longer happen as more light is shed upon the licensing process and the possibilities.
The administrators of licenses should (hopefully) not introduce personal biases or, if one exists, move past it and still offer the license at a reasonable fee. Now, I am not certain if this is exactly how it works, but that is the indication that I get from the documentation.
If you find a license request denied for no obvious reason (like, say, the license request was on another templar) then you could mail the Northern Templar imms and inquire about it.
Again, I'm not certain if this is how it operates currently but it is how I think it should operate. :)
Quote
So there is an option for going unlicensed. Or more likely, there is actually a reason to have a safe haven somewhere away from militia.
There are two levels of 'criminal' activity in Tuluk. The reason I put criminal in quotes is because licensed acts are not criminal unless they are botched. A licensed assassination that is done artfully is legal.
Now, on top of this, there will be unlicensed acts that are more risky and I wholeheartedly hope some people pick up on this loose end. I've seen unlicensed criminal organizations in Tuluk start up but then fade away too quickly. This would be the "true" criminal element in Tuluk since they would be working outside the administrative structure of the Templarate.
Quote
As it stands, the only two criminal tools in Tuluk are the licensed assassination and thievery. And it is not everyday, people hire an assassin to get someone killed or something to be stolen, so making a living through that way was giving me headaches. Not to mention, the initial bribes and buying off the licenses at the start made a bad start. It could be done, if I had more patience, and if I had more time.
At time changes so do the processes within Tuluk. I believe that Tuluk does lack an unlicensed criminal element and a safe haven for that element. While the ruins and Under Tuluk exist there are deterants to going there for criminals - mainly due to the excessive stamina drain that each room takes. I don't believe this information is particularly IC or sensitive since most everyone in Tuluk knows that the ruins are out of bounds and have heard rumors about Under Tuluk.
I would like to see something there change but I'd like to see that as a combination of IC effort and maybe some OOC changes (make some of the rooms less stamina intensive?).
I remember a time when Allanak did not have a criminal organization. I remember when the Guild was formed and how it was formed. I remember each of the characters involved - what happened was how any clan was created. A few characters managed to stay alive long enough to bring others on board and it reached a point where they were able to present the immortals the concept for the Clan with a proven record. The imms then coded it.
Tuluk needs this effort. I don't think the imms should hand it over without any effort on the PCs side. It'll take a concentrated effort by a few like-minded criminals to form a truly criminal organization in Tuluk. As I said, it's been attempted before and was quite successful then.
The city is ripe for stuff like this right now. Things are changing and attitudes are changing. More and more people "get" Tuluk and how it operates. People are starting to see that licensed acts are not criminal and are to be admired. Templars, from what I've seen, are not as biased in the granting of licenses. Tuluk is slowly shaping into what the documents suggest it is and evolving beyond that.
Tuluk is in a period of player-affected growth and development.
I think people are vastly over playing what a license can do for you. Licensing is bribery, pure and simple. You can get an assassins or thieves "license" in Allanak too; it is called "give templar 1000 coins". The difference is superficial.
Allanak is a great example, without going IC, there have been well run PC organizations in the past in Allanak (and could be today). They all share a common theme; work out of the 'rinth. The 'rinth is a resource. Even after all the bribes are paid (or licenses bought) at the end of the day, criminals need the ability to go sit down in a nice shady bar and hook up with other criminals without militia in their hair. Even criminal organizations that are in bed with the Templerate work out of the 'rinth.
The reason why criminals work in lawless zones is because even if the Templars have given you a thumbs up, lawless zones still offer up something that all the bribes and licenses in the world can't give you; man power. Criminal organizations form by recruiting the various worthless dregs of society. You need lowly independent criminals before you can have organized criminals. You need not only a place for lowly criminals to hide from the law, but also a place where they can kick their feet up and boast about their latest haul. Tuluk lacks this entirely. Networking with other criminals when you don't have a meeting place, much less a source of criminals, is damn hard. Hell, it is hard in Allanak even with the 'rinth sitting right there. Starting a criminal band in Allanak is HARD. I couldn't imagine trying to do the same in Tuluk.
Then there is just the OOC logistics of a lawless zone. If every single place is going to have a crime code kick in where thousands of soldiers come out to the streets to beat the piss out of you, you just made criminal activity VERY frigging hard.
Personally, I think that Tuluk SHOULD be the crime capital of the known world. All that money fat merchants bring in from the (relatively) lush land should be offset by the enormous bribes they need to pay up in order to keep criminal syndicates from killing them in the night.
Just think of the geography of Tuluk for a second. Tuluk is much bigger (area wise) then Allanak. Tuluk is bigger, but has roughly the same number of people. This means that all the soldiers are spread out.
If I had a magical wand, I would do three things to make Tuluk more criminal hospitable.
1) I would slap down more alleyways and rooftops in the warrens. I would string alleyways everywhere, south of the sanctuary and red sun commons, west of the noble and Templar district. Basically, I would slap down alleyways in the entire southwest quadrant of the city. You can assume that these alleyways already exist. There is always space between buildings and places to dump trash in every city, that goes double and triple for ancient feudal cities. If there are no alleyways, then Tuluk's main roads should be a mess. Further, I would make these alleyways break the North road at multiple points. No chock off points like in Allanak (something that always bothered me BTW). It should be that if you can get to the North road, you can get into alleyways. I would then go aggressively slap down some rooftops to add even more ways to get around.
2) I would turn the warrens into a quasi-lawful area. All alleyways would be entirely unlawful dirty places. All major roads on the other hand would be lawful places that are lightly patrolled. Guards would not enter unlawful places. The effect would be that if you are on the main street in the warrens, you are probably safe from most random acts of violence. If you are on the run, you just stick the alleyways and rooftops. Tuluki law would avoid these places so long as they are not too aggressive and don't diminish the beauty and overall safety of the well kept main streets.
3) I would slap down two bars in the warrens practically insight of each other. One would be on a lawful main road near the alleyways, the other would be in the unlawful alleyways. Burn down another bar or three on Tuluk if this really causes anyone heartache. You need at least two bars so that rival criminal groups don't murder each other off too fast.
I would then sit back and watch as thievery and extortion of merchants blooms.
Motherfucking Rindan. Where the fuck you been?
That was brilliant.
Wow. Um, wow... last time I checked this thread, it was three pages long. I'm a little overwhelmed, and I doubt I'll be able to form a cognizant response any time soon.
I just wanted to stick my head and say I really like some of the suggestions I'm hearing, and how most people seem really receptive to them. For those of you saying this thread should be locked, I wonder why you feel that way. Everything, from what I've been able to read, has been very civil, not to mention incredibly thought-provoking.
Um, yeah. Wow. I need to check threads I start more often...
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"For those of you saying this thread should be locked, I wonder why you feel that way. Everything, from what I've been able to read, has been very civil, not to mention incredibly thought-provoking.
Because some people think that a thread should automatically be locked after it hits a certain number of pages.
Tuluk is GREAT!
To visit.
You Wimpy, Grass-Loving, Bard-Geeks.
PS. I'm just kidding.
PPS Sort of.
Edited: PSS tp PPS so as to avoid the evil grammar nazi.
Just to comment on the locking/unlocking:
In my opinion, the last couple of pages of this thread have been filled with some awesome insights and suggestions for both staff and players who are interested in "improving" Tuluk.
I agree that there needs to be a "lawless" area that is more accessible and liveable. For various reasons I don't think it's necessarily ICly probable for that to be within the Warrens, but I see the attraction.
I'd also love to see some initiative on the part of the playerbase to really get that criminal element going in the city. From what I've heard lately, Tuluk does seem to be changing in tone and feel. I think that's in large part due to threads like this and discussion among the playerbase and staff about making the actual gameplay synch up with the documentation.
Not sure the point of the post, other than to say that this discussion has been a good one.
I like the differences between Tuluk and Allanak to a certain extent though I prefer Allanak's in your face kind of savagery... must be the NYer in me.
I think the danger in liking one place too much is that you're limiting yourself to one type of character, I find people are loyal to cities and beliefs much like their characters would be. So you get the same people playing in Allanak than you get playing in Tuluk, the same hunters, the same tribals, the same everything.
Because they're so different getting into the nitty gritty of each place is really tough, the beauty is in the details. I think Tuluk is relatively new and still hashing out its beauty. PERFECT time to invade those filthy scrabs again! :twisted:
Make an effort at getting to know each place inside and out. I think the difference is what makes them marvelous.
ShaLeah
- who still doesn't have the balls to start her ventures in either The Rinth or Red Storm...
QuoteI agree that there needs to be a "lawless" area that is more accessible and liveable. For various reasons I don't think it's necessarily ICly probable for that to be within the Warrens, but I see the attraction.
There are already areas up in the Warrens where (NPC) soldiers are very rare.
If not the Warrens, then where?
I'd be interested in seeing some criminal organizations in Tuluk. I also played criminals there and I've given up. Tuluk is boring.
I really like Rindan's ideas!
Quote from: "Kalden"I'd be interested in seeing some criminal organizations in Tuluk. I also played criminals there and I've given up. Tuluk is boring.
I am working on this as we speak. Don't give up. Tuluk will be the SHIT once my plans go through.
Quote from: "Rindan On a Break"1) I would slap down more alleyways and rooftops in the warrens. I would string alleyways everywhere, south of the sanctuary and red sun commons, west of the noble and Templar district. Basically, I would slap down alleyways in the entire southwest quadrant of the city. You can assume that these alleyways already exist. There is always space between buildings and places to dump trash in every city, that goes double and triple for ancient feudal cities. If there are no alleyways, then Tuluk's main roads should be a mess. Further, I would make these alleyways break the North road at multiple points. No chock off points like in Allanak (something that always bothered me BTW). It should be that if you can get to the North road, you can get into alleyways. I would then go aggressively slap down some rooftops to add even more ways to get around.
Allanak could use that kind of treatment as well.