That's it. I'd just like to hear what ideas others have for a third, pretty different city-state.
Here's one of mine: The city-state would be ruled by an elven sorceror-queen and in this city-state elves would be the majority. All nobility and positions of power would be elves, humans would be considered the lowly scum, like vermin. By law of the sorceror-queen, females hold all positions of power and males are not allowed any sort of open power. To harm a female in any way is a death sentence. No non-elves with magicks are allowed to live. Elven mages are allowed to come and go openly as long as they don't use their powers in a harmful way within the city. Half-elves are slaves and servants, there are no free half-elves within the city.
Or possibly something similar except instead of elves, insert dwarves.
This isn't to be a discussion about whether or not a third city-state should be added. All I want to hear is ideas people have to make a third city-state that would be much different from the existing two.
Just a few ideas of what I'd like to see in one if there was a third city-state.
Moved this into World Desc.
Considering how elves trust each other less than humans I'd have a hard time accepting an elven city-state of a magnitude anywhere close to Allanak or Tuluk. I think the closest elves will get to that is the Blackwing Fort or perhaps one of the playable tribes will one day get a village along the lines of Red Storm going.
Allowing elven magickers to use magick is just a recipe for 90% of magicker apps to be elves from that city. I think there would also be some people who would get a little confused by that and start playing more like Tolkien elves.
I like the idea of a matriarchy, since so far it's been mainly dudes with the big sorceror-king power.
If there was another city state, I'd rather see it not have nobles and be more like Red Storm with templars or some scary equivalent.
A gith village/city would kick incredible amounts of butt especially if the competitive nature of gith was integrated into how the village was run. Don't like your sergeant? Kick his ass in a duel and take his job and his weapon.
Plus there would be the required yearly mobilization for invasion. 8)
QuoteConsidering how elves trust each other less than humans I'd have a hard time accepting an elven city-state of a magnitude anywhere close to Allanak or Tuluk.
Heheh, that's exactly what I thought would make it fun.
Everyone is
constantly trying to screw everyone else over.
Well, I guess the sex-equality issue would make that kind of city inconsistent with the world.
It looks somewhat inspired by a D&D drow society, but the elves here (at least the city ones) seem to be much different than their D&D cousins (eg "Stealing is an act of courage").
My guess would be a small state nearby any of the cities, perhaps evolving from a village. The main difference against the other ones, would be a greater tolerance with half-elves.
There could be many interesting reasons for that. Perhaps some half-elves protected the place against <insert here hazard/monster>, showing their value, or perhaps it could be some kind of superstition about half-elves and magick, making the commoners fear, but respect them.
I'm not sure if this would be viable, for I have no idea of how many breeds are there, nor how big is the racism against them...
--k
I can't really imagine a city-state that would be all that different from the two present ones that exist. Elven tribal mentality, dwarven foci, half-giant stupidity, and halfling and gith willingness to simply eat other races make them all fairly unsuitable for creating that type of civilization. Add to that fact that there's a uniquely human trait that gives them a huge advantage when it comes to the whole "being a sorcerer king" gig.
If we get away from the concept of a city-state a little bit, though, I could see a "city" of sorts created by a council of the elven tribes as an attempt at unity and having common ground. Instead of being ruled by a single sorcerer king, it would be ruled by a council of elders from each tribe, with the decisions of that council binding law on all the inhabitants of the city. The population of the city would be largely transient, as tribes or members of tribes came to trade, stayed for various purposes, and then left again. A small portion of the tribal population would be permanent, the elderly, disabled, and so on.
The city might consist of a series of concentric circles. The innermost and smallest area would be reserved for the permanent population of the city, the meeting-house where the tribal councils met, and so on. The next circle outward would be reserved largely for the elven transient population, those tribals who come and go on whatever schedule, as well as quarters for the slave population of the city. The next ring outward would be a marketplace. The last ring would be for temporary or permanent dwellers who are non-tribal elves, including city elves, humans, dwarves, and so on.
I'd like to see a city-state that actually has morals and regard for life. Tuluk comes close but I hate tuluk. I want to see a Free City ruled by a powerful SK that gives a lot of freedom to his subjects. These concepts wouldn't be devoid in zalanthas, but everyone thinks they should be.
-RM
I had an idea that came upon me as I was playing once, and while I'm sure it would never happen, it would be nice.
Have some new group of people start arriving from some direction and start building a variety of villages within range of one central fort where the seat of power would reside. This new society, like every other coherent society, are led by a very powerful sorceror. Now, here's where things change.
First off, there are about three well-defined casts which the previously mentioned sorceror or even sorceress rules. First, is the noble-like caste. They essentially are like nobles in every other city in terms of authority, but are given far more responsibility in the day to day affairs of the society. As in protecting the city from attacks and all that fun stuff. Another difference is that they're all elementalists. They are garnered from the general population at a young age through some kind of test or some such. Any adult elementalist is killed on sight.
The second caste would be the warrior's caste. These are the only people allowed to train extensively in weaponry. They are the major enforcment arm of the population and are given more lavish lifestyles than the average commoner.
Lastly, there are the commoners. They have only recently been gathered from various tribes into one culture and haven't been taking it too well. As previously mentioned, the learning of warfare is restricted, and anyone thought to have progressed to a level of skill where they could be a threat is killed. Naturally, there are various rebellious elements looking to get back at the ruling caste.
There is the templar-like element to it as well, but they aren't even half as common as templars are in the city-states. They are a select few chosen from the warrior caste and trained in sorcery. While not drawing their power directly from the absolute ruler, they are bound in a way that ensures their loyalty.
The best way to describe the society as a whole is a variety of disparate tribes pulled together by a magick-using minority. The rule is harsh overall, given the tendencies of the commoners.
I had an idea for a new race to go with this, but that seemed like stretching it.
Kuraciville. In the Red Desert.
Duh.
lawl. Or Red Storm begans to expand east and west and over the sea. They've already got a sorcerer god king, and I hear those things are hard to comeby. I don't know how kurac gets by without one . . . or do they?
Forget new city states, I dream about remaking the old ones. Imagine if one day the Dragon shows up and kills the two god kings. Suddenly templars are powerless, and their sudden weakness practically screams for rebellion. A templar without his powers is just a guy who can order troops around, and he can only order the soldiers around so long as they want to be ordered around. Suddenly high ranking military men would be the TRUE power. Let things run like this for a little while.
Over time the nobility and the templars power to rule would degrade as military strong men take power. The problem with military strong men is that they generally don't understand much outside of armed conflict. The cities would start to break down into disorder as strong men fought against strong men. The lawless in the streets would begin to rise as no power within either city is able to bring about order and subjugate the population.
So what happens? If all of a sudden all the gems in Allanak fall off, the not-so-gemmed-anymore might very well get it in their heads that they need to be on top before an angry mob tears them to shreds. The gem would either have to get their shit in order very quickly and seize control, or be cut down by the army and commoners. It isn't entirely implausible though that if there were enough powerful gemmed all working together they could seize control. That said, I would place my money on them all ending up dead. If the gemmed don't have enough power to rule, and the military is incapable of ruling, who takes over?
Kurac of course. Kuraci are shifty bastards. They wouldn't do it openly at first. Instead, they might pick a military strong man and prop him up. Use him to take control and slowly grow their presence until they are openly declared the rulers of Allanak. The Kuraci rulers of Allanak would be mysterious, but no where as extreme in their opulence as the nobility of old. If anything, Allanak under Kurac would have an odd dichotomy of being one of the 'freer' and 'fair' places in the known world, but at the same time have some of the most brutal punishments for criminals and a well deserved reputation for people disappearing in ways that make Tuluk seem crude. Think of it as a relatively 'free' Orwellian society. Kuraci cults and fanatical Kuraci shock troops would be a dime a dozen. Think House Arteries from Dune; subtle, violent, brutal, fanatical followers, extreme loyalty, but relatively free and fair their own brutal way.
In Tuluk, the Kadians and the Salarri might set aside their differences to band together to gain control of Tuluk. They would take over much in the same way as Kurac takes over Allanak by supporting a strong man and eventually claiming power for themselves. While Kurac would win their city with more subterfuge, the Kadian/Salarr alliance would do it more by blatantly buying people out spending large sums of money. Tuluki society might remain relatively untouched as Kadian and Salarri family members would take over the position of nobility. The transition to full control would take longer then Kuracs rise to power if for no other reason then the extra time needed to build a loyal fighting force and the lower overall dependence of the city on its leaders to keep them fed and watered.
So, Kurac owns Allanak, and the Kadians and Salarri own Tuluk. Shit, what is there not to love about it? Assassinations would be a damn a dozen as the merchant houses struggle for control of the known world. The world would boil in conflict. It would pwn3.
A city that is at first glance ruled by a single elven tribe, but is in super sekrit fact run by a human psionicist who has "convinced" elves of differing tribes that they are in fact part of the same tribe, and that he is their ruler.
Quote from: "Twilight"A city that is at first glance ruled by a single elven tribe, but is in super sekrit fact run by a human psionicist who has "convinced" elves of differing tribes that they are in fact part of the same tribe, and that he is their ruler.
That's got a nice twist to it.
It is too bad our player base is too small to handle a whole 'nother city state. Some of these suggestions are interesting. I like the psionicist one, except it would be the most fun when we all found out about him. I see something where he gradually loses power and everything disintegrates around his ears. Might be neat for a long-running plot.
In the meantime, who needs sorcerer kings? Psshh. LET'S DESTROY EVERYTHING.
An elven city-state could exist with an uneasy state of balance. Think the Dark Elf Trilogy of the Forgotten Realms books.
It'd simply be more devious. One tribe might have the upper hand, but it would always have to watch out for the scheming alliances of the smaller, weaker tribes. Nobody could openly attack another tribe, but if nobody sees anything...well, there's not much that can be done. :wink:
I see it as being very entertaining and very workable.
Uhm...so what about a unified elven tribe?
Same way tribes were united before, they can be united again. That's what would make the leader a sorcerer-king, you know?
I'd rather have a large gith outpost with only minimal magick present rather than a city-state with a sorcerer king.
I don't know how it is with anyone else, but when I play a magicker, the game always has a somewhat different feel. It's cool, yes, but I think a good gith outpost with no PC magickers of any sort could help with more mundane grit. Besides, I would really like to try a gith tribe sometime.
A not-so powerful psionicist who has changed the focus of an elite caste
of dwarves that rule in their name. Change their focus and from there
they plow along doing their leader's will to the best of their ability. The
dwarves could be elementalists or possibly sorcerers masquerading
their powers as being from their highlord rather than their own.
A wandering desert tribe stumbles upon some ruins exposed by the
ever shifting desert. An ancient bugaboo, possibly from the Empire of
the Dragon, offers them shelter from the city states and power of their
own if they will provide it with sacrafice. The population quickly grows
as they absorb some tribes and sacrafice others and spend most of their
time digging up the ruins (aided by their newly gifted powers).
Another sentient (and probably humanoid) race is discovered living under
the surface of the Known World that was, previously, as ignorant about
the topside world as it was of them. Pretty much anything can happen,
here. Except molemen, that's been done to death.
If all else fails we can always fall back on the tried and true, "Unearthed
Nazi war experiements result in modern day uebermensch that want
to take over everything".
Quote from: "Larrath"I'd rather have a large gith outpost with only minimal magick present rather than a city-state with a sorcerer king.
I don't know how it is with anyone else, but when I play a magicker, the game always has a somewhat different feel. It's cool, yes, but I think a good gith outpost with no PC magickers of any sort could help with more mundane grit. Besides, I would really like to try a gith tribe sometime.
A completely mudane outpost run by a non-player race would be unique
and cool. Without political and social connections to the player races,
though, I have trouble seeing how they'd last long if they didn't have
some magick or psionic based way of protecting their population.
I like the idea, I just don't see it lasting long once the sorcerer kings
or the merchant houses take notice.
Quote from: "nessalin"A not-so powerful psionicist who has changed the focus of an elite caste
of dwarves that rule in their name. Change their focus and from there
they plow along doing their leader's will to the best of their ability. The
dwarves could be elementalists or possibly sorcerers masquerading
their powers as being from their highlord rather than their own.
A wandering desert tribe stumbles upon some ruins exposed by the
ever shifting desert. An ancient bugaboo, possibly from the Empire of
the Dragon, offers them shelter from the city states and power of their
own if they will provide it with sacrafice. The population quickly grows
as they absorb some tribes and sacrafice others and spend most of their
time digging up the ruins (aided by their newly gifted powers).
Another sentient (and probably humanoid) race is discovered living under
the surface of the Known World that was, previously, as ignorant about
the topside world as it was of them. Pretty much anything can happen,
here. Except molemen, that's been done to death.
I really like these, especially the first one.
Quote from: "nessalin"Quote from: "Larrath"I'd rather have a large gith outpost with only minimal magick present rather than a city-state with a sorcerer king.
I don't know how it is with anyone else, but when I play a magicker, the game always has a somewhat different feel. It's cool, yes, but I think a good gith outpost with no PC magickers of any sort could help with more mundane grit. Besides, I would really like to try a gith tribe sometime.
A completely mudane outpost run by a non-player race would be unique
and cool. Without political and social connections to the player races,
though, I have trouble seeing how they'd last long if they didn't have
some magick or psionic based way of protecting their population.
I like the idea, I just don't see it lasting long once the sorcerer kings
or the merchant houses take notice.
Well, this is really just assuming that it could have enough players to support itself, since obviously nobody wants mantis hanging around in Tuluk. Making an area with natural protection against Highlords and merchant houses can't be all that difficult though, as far as my limited understanding goes at least - a few artifacts here, some rune-covered gates there... Hell, the place could even belong to someone who
was a mighty magickal creature but has since been slain or trapped somehow and only the Anti-Tektolnian magicks remain. As for merchant houses, a few narrow passes and easily defended valleys could do the trick.
I can't
really see how it could work out right now, at least on a permanent basis since the playerbase seems spread quite thin to me - after all, I want people to come to Tor or Borsail asking for work and be flat-out denied because the units are all full. Limiting employment. Yum.
EDIT: On the other hand, Templar Nazis... That really does sound promising! Their sorcerer-king could walk around in a hollowed-out gaj shell with magickal feet, a transparent front and a few repeating crossbows mounted on the sides.
We need this.
A flying citadel that is a city-state of its own, manned by spirts of angry vestric who were slain in the not-so-well-known Erdlu-Vestric War of the 13th Age. Mutated beyond normal vestric, they have become so smart, and technology-driven, that their citadel has developed gigantic blue beams of light that destroy everything they touch. So the angry vestric spirits fly their citadel around, zapping anyone who's ever slain a vestric, wears any vestric clothing, has anything made of feathers, has ever seen a feather, or is an erdlu, or ally to an erdlu.
Quote from: "Halaster"A flying citadel that is a city-state of its own, manned by spirts of angry vestric who were slain in the not-so-well-known Erdlu-Vestric War of the 13th Age. Mutated beyond normal vestric, they have become so smart, and technology-driven, that their citadel has developed gigantic blue beams of light that destroy everything they touch. So the angry vestric spirits fly their citadel around, zapping anyone who's ever slain a vestric, wears any vestric clothing, has anything made of feathers, has ever seen a feather, or is an erdlu, or ally to an erdlu.
What about people that rape erdlu?
A sentient system of underground caves, led by a clan of Rukkians. Its plan involves stealing underpants and taking over the world.
A New Tuluk.
Too many cities already of humans, I think.
Hell there's not that many cities. Only 2 really.
I like the idea of an elven city, especially one run by elven merchants (yes, there might already be something in the game a little like this) of a reunified city-elf clan and desert-elf clan. How to prevent it from being taken over/destroyed by the sorcerer-kings? Well, the elven tribe could play them off against each other. Or, the could even control a resource that could be destroyed by the merchant leaders a la Atreidies being able to destroy the spice (Dune). Maybe a source of magickal metal? Like the goose that lays the golden egg, it couldn't be taken over without being destroyed. As to the truth of it, the PCs would have to find out IG.
If the city were run by a non-PC tribe, and hired someone else to do the building for them, it would be pretty cool. I like the parallels with the drow "underworld" from the Dark Elf trilogy, too. But Zalanthas elves are not D&D elves, and it would look very different. And there would be a place for city-elf PCs to be something other than "shady" types, class-wise. Of course, elves would still be elves. :twisted:
This city could even lead to a flourishing of elvish culture. What if it were a city that would allow such races as the gith to come to trade? Yes, the gith are bloodthirsty savages, but it would be nice to give them a chance to be more than that one-dimensional portrayal. Brutal, but not simple.
Morrolan
New New Tuluk, with public wine fountains and more sex-couches.
why does the leader of a city-state have to be a magician, huh? who said they all had to be sorcerors, huh?
why can't it just be someone who was elected into that position?
a leader loved, not feared. huh? huh?
Someone might have mentioned it previously, but there's a really good reason why city-states are run by humans. It states in the docs that only humans can be psionicists, so that's not really IC info.
Sure, anyone can be an insane, godly-powerful sorceror...but if you think that little nagging voice in the back of your mind is just your conscience...well...who's really in control?
And since the guy in control is a human...why would a human want to surround himself with a bunch of inferior humanoids?
That's just a semi-wild-assed guess on my part, but it makes enough sense to be plausible, I think. The only reason elves and gith and halflings and other humanoids even exist anymore is because either they're useful or they're too far out of the way to bother with. As soon as they present any kind of threat, they're going to get schwacked. Hard. I mean, c'mon, we're living in the age of preventive war, here!
I think the only reasonable alternative to a human-psionicist run city state would be a servant of the Dragon or the Dragon himself (or some other supernatural being immune to psionics) uniting a set of tribes and establishing another city. Of course, there's the problem of -why- such a being would want to do such a thing...but I'm sure some sort of explanation could be arranged.
Quote from: "Larrath"What about people that rape erdlu?
Depends if they had consent or not.
>run
>s (screaming as he flails his arms and darts through the streets)
Quote from: "Synthesis"
stuff
I think that elves and gith wouldn't make good city-state leaders because that's just not what they want, in general. Tribal elves are just that - tribal. They have no interest in forming a big city where everyone's invited. They want to be a part of their small (compared to city-states) tribe and not have outsiders around too much. Gith are the same.
City-elves aren't much different. They'd be more likely to be able to rule a city-state, but even then, I have a hard time envisioning it.
Just my thoughts.
Yeah I don't think elves would function as the best as far as running a city goes. Though I'd love to see them and half-elves accepted as templars in this imaginary city-state thread we have here, that'd be pretty cool.
I don't want to see half-elves accepted anywhere. And elves just won't make a city-state. They'd make a very reinforced camp, at most. Elven tribes simply aren't that large, nor do I think they'd like to base themselves on exploitation the way the cities do with a Templar class, a working class and a lazy slut class.
Really, I just don't know how much I'd even like to see a third city state. Third major PC settlement, sure, but why a city-state? We already have five noble clans. That means more noble family than merchant family.
We need more places where there is nothing but grit, like Red Storm, only less insanely dangerous and more liveable. I love templars, I really do, but sometimes I'd like to be in a city where magick is feared on a truly large scale, and not just by the ignorant masses. A place with a secret society of magickers, perhaps. Heh.
Why don't you want to see half-elves accepted anywhere?
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Why don't you want to see half-elves accepted anywhere?
Because I think it's against the point of half-elves. Half-elves are scum and they have to face that fact, internally and externally, every day. To be able to have the solace in knowing that
somewhere people tolerate them would seriously affect their mentality, at least on some scale. I say, meh.
Quote from: "Larrath"Quote from: "RunningMountain"Why don't you want to see half-elves accepted anywhere?
Because I think it's against the point of half-elves. Half-elves are scum and they have to face that fact, internally and externally, every day. To be able to have the solace in knowing that somewhere people tolerate them would seriously affect their mentality, at least on some scale. I say, meh.
Well, I think that people tolerate a half-elf in the way you would tolerate a stray dog or cat. You just...think of it as less, but you don't think of it as scum. And the half-elves know this, or even if that's not true, that's what they think is true. The way I see it, it really doesn't matter what people think of a half-elf, it's what half-elves think other people think of them that makes their mentality.
BUT I DERAIL.
Back on topic, I think a city under the ground would be...absolutely amazing. And it would have a lot of new monsters! I want it to be like fraggle rock. Did anybody watch that show? That show was awesome.
A city underground eh? How about a city above the grey forest?
Replica of City of Tyr from Darksun.
The sorcerer king has been killed by some "heroes". Would not that be something.... cool?
The Free City was/is awesome.
A city that is similar to an old west town from the western movies would be cool. No sorceror king, no law other than those made by the folks living there. Sort of like the 'rinth except a small outpost/city of its own. You want the law to protect you? Be the law, have some protection or don't go here because you will be robbed/cheated/killed/enslaved/etc...
No extra City-state for me. THanks, but no thanks.
We have:
Allanak
Tuluk
The 'rinth.
Luir's Outpost.
Red Storm
Red Storm East
Blackwing outpost.
Gith Mesa
Mantis Valley
Not enough cities to you?
Enough for me.
I'd like to see somewhere cold.
Quote from: "Ghost"Replica of City of Tyr from Darksun.
The sorcerer king has been killed by some "heroes". Would not that be something.... cool?
I can see Red Storm evolving into Zalanthas' answer to Tyr personally. It will obviously take a while to get the power base in place that will allow 'self rule' and what have you. There will be likely teething problems with tyrannical neighbours in Allanak and also some interesting developments with non-humans being accepted generally, but there you go.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Why don't you want to see half-elves accepted anywhere?
Why? because not being accepted is one of the main Rp points of half-elves. If that goes, then everything else about a half-elf would just collapse, and you would basicly have a human with a elf parent, or a elf with a human parent.
Quote from: "Tuannon"I can see Red Storm evolving into Zalanthas' answer to Tyr personally. It will obviously take a while to get the power base in place that will allow 'self rule' and what have you. There will be likely teething problems with tyrannical neighbours in Allanak and also some interesting developments with non-humans being accepted generally, but there you go.
Yes, but Red Storm is more like "live your own life" and "close your eyes to the others". Tyr is more like, "Heroes! Yay!". I think that would add an aspect to the game. Since, in truth, every other place is more or less following the concept of "Mind your own business". No place, maybe no other than the labyrinth, puts weight on individuals.
Red storm further developed into something that can be player run, with cell leaders that can decide on things.
Thought the way I see it now, with Luirs/Tribals/Allanak/Tuluk and the player base we have now, it's too spread out.
There was another city Steinal before. There must be a reason why it is not there any more.
I haven't really been reading this thread that much, so I am not sure if somebody already suggested this but I would like to see a smallish city run by actual pc's something a little bigger than Luirs is what I had in mind. There would be an ever present struggle for power and assassinations and all that stuff. I would like it.
Just come to Luir's. Heh.
Quote from: "Delirium"Just come to Luir's. Heh.
There's a reason you have to ask us to. The place is a burden now. No character at all.
Not so long ago the place was like a third city, it had so many PCs.
So I'm not sure where you're getting that perception from. The pbase goes in cycles.
Besides, I wasn't asking. Just suggesting. ;)
A mysterious race of intelligent cactii have slowly infiltrated much of the Known World and perfected the genetic creation of "sentient sandcloth" to be filtered into the markets of every corner of Zalanthas. At first, the sandcloth, which is capable of some advanced psionic disciplines, transmits information to the cactii people until such a time they can put forward their master plan.
They will first convince all ranks of high authority to purchase more of the sandcloth and mandate its use in every headpiece ever worn. It will then influence high level Kadian officials to create a marketing campaign that makes sandcloth headgear "all the rage". The cactii leader, known only as "The Spikey One" will also plant his sandcloth into the elven, halfling and other nations of the Known World until every being, including the great Sorcerer-Kings themselves, succumb to either psionic or peer pressure.
Once the sandcloth is in place, the cactii will simultaneously paralyze all beings of the Known World and begin the most horrible acts of vengeance ever construed. They shall move from being to being and cut THEM in half, drinking from their coils, with only the bravery of a few random black snakes standing between them and total domination.
Impossible? Perhaps. But...is that sandcloth you're wearing?
*cue eerie music*
Oh shit.
He totally got that from Star Trek, I bet.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"No extra City-state for me. THanks, but no thanks.
We have:
Allanak
Tuluk
The 'rinth.
Luir's Outpost.
Red Storm
Red Storm East
Blackwing outpost.
Gith Mesa
Mantis Valley
Not enough cities to you?
Enough for me.
Half of those aren't even cities. RSE is like 4 rooms. The 'rinth is part of allanak just a dirty foul lawless quarter. The d-elf outpost is far too small and only has 1 tavern. Gith and Mantis don't have cities either. We have 2 cities, Allanak and Tuluk.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Not enough cities to you?
Enough for me.
Half of those aren't even cities. <snip>
Two cities
Two lawless "underbelly" locations
Four outposts
Several farms
At least ten tribal/cultural encampments/villages, some of them quite large
We've still got plenty.
Quote from: "Delirium"Quote from: "RunningMountain"Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Not enough cities to you?
Enough for me.
Half of those aren't even cities. <snip>
Two cities
Two lawless "underbelly" locations
Four outposts
Several farms
At least ten tribal/cultural encampments/villages, some of them quite large
We've still got plenty.
And "other" unnamed places. :shock: I agree, there is plenty to go around.
Me, I like LoD's post. I get dibs on playing a snake. :)
Quote from: "Delirium"
Two cities
Two lawless "underbelly" locations
Four outposts
Several farms
At least ten tribal/cultural encampments/villages, some of them quite large
...and a vestric in a maar tree!
Sorry.
I'll attest that Luir's isn't exactly "hopping" like 'Nak, but it's active, and not exactly "small."
Quote from: "RunningMountain"
Half of those aren't even cities. RSE is like 4 rooms.
That is actually not true. RSE, at least last time I was there, is a fully developed area. You could conceivably base a PC out of there and have all the basics covered. Granted, RSE is not exactly happening in terms of PC activity, but it isn't small or barren in terms of how it is developed. If someone wanted to create an isolated clan that was still in an outpost, RSE would be a perfectly fine place to do it. Of course, I can think of more then one other place that has not been mentioned that could also serve as staging areas. Hrm... makes me want to think up some nasty group and start then up in some place obscure...
Cities aren't going to develop unless there are resources available to generate agriculture which in turn causes people to live sedentary lives around those resources which in turn causes them to defend those resources which leads to organization which leads to greater accumulations of people at those sites to handle the needs of those there which continues to repeat the above chain.
Now, given the scant availability of resources in Zalanthas and thus the harsher lifestyle than what most real-world models would experience, it's probably safe to say that city growth would be smaller. If you use Mesopotamia as an example, you'll end up with populations ranging from say a couple thousand to perhaps 50,000 (given the differences in resource availability, estimating such populations are more difficult).
Point is, if there isn't a suitable amount of resources in the area, sustained populations aren't likely to be maintained or even occur. Who knows how many civilizations have ceased to exist because they simply couldn't meet the needs of organized habitation on anything but a very small scale.
Given the environmental conditions, a handful of cities in the 5000-10,000 range is probably more than the planet can sustain. Any more and nature thins out the population by starvation and disease.
Take care,
Jason
Both Tuluk and 'nak have about 350-400k citizens each, villages included.
On topic:
An underground city of a mysterious race noone ever seen, but there are some artifacts to be found.
Later on, it'd turn out that anakore are quite intelligent and have their own culture and a complicated class system using claws length as the main way to say one's social position.
Quote from: "Anael"Both Tuluk and 'nak have about 350-400k citizens each, villages included.
A ridiculous figure given the environment. One-tenth that number would be a number unlikely to be sustainable without far greater agriculture and availability of resources for any significant amount of time.
Where do people get their food? Someone has to be growing it. Producing enough food for 350,000 people is going to require massive agriculture. Hunting is a poor way to get food since the amount of time expended doesn't produce enough food to live off, especially in an environment where hunting is tough enough that people have to go around armored. Where do they get their water? A single location (or two) to get water in a city of 350,000? Good luck getting water this week.
This isn't a case of "fantasy" and "suspending your disbelief". This is just piss-poor design if that number is the serious estimate given after anything longer than two seconds of thought. Plus, there's no need for such a large population. It doesn't really serve any purpose game-wise.
The number of settlements is quite acceptable given the environment though. Not really a need/ability to create more without taking into consideration numerous factors such as the importation of resources (yes, I had a PC who was thinking of doing such things but I fully expected him to fail since it's unlikely to succeed).
So, no I can't see a need for more settlements because there's no motivation or capability for their survival. Also, if that 350k+ figure is accurate, a serious revision of population figures is in order.
Jason
Richter writes:
QuoteWhere do people get their food? Someone has to be growing it. Producing enough food for 350,000 people is going to require massive agriculture. Hunting is a poor way to get food since the amount of time expended doesn't produce enough food to live off, especially in an environment where hunting is tough enough that people have to go around armored. Where do they get their water? A single location (or two) to get water in a city of 350,000? Good luck getting water this week.
This isn't a case of "fantasy" and "suspending your disbelief". This is just piss-poor design if that number is the serious estimate given after anything longer than two seconds of thought. Plus, there's no need for such a large population. It doesn't really serve any purpose game-wise.
This all sounds like a good research project for you to undertake if you want to know all the answers. Why do you feel there's only one source of water? Because that's the only place PC's are able to obtain water in a coded manner? I guess that means the entire populace has to follow the model that's more clearly based off playability than realism.
No. The idea that every single living person in Allanak has to walk to the temple to obtain water is simply narrow thinking. I would imagine most organizations order their water supply from the family/group that owns and operates it. The source? Do you know? Does anyone really know? Is it even represented in game to its fullest? Last I checked there were some elementalists capable of creating water pretty much out of thin air with gems around their necks. Have you taken the Pepsi challenge with regular water sold at the temple and magick water?
As for food, do you live in a city? Does that city grow all its own food? Or does it import food from areas that -do- have the agriculture to support it? I'd imagine its the latter, and while Allanak does have in game sources of both agriculture and livestock, there are other remote areas that have the same which I expect to export food to Allanak.
I will agree with you that someone wanting to track and view the entire resource chain from beginning to end is going to be left wanting, but I would stray from calling it "piss-poor design" over a more plausible explanation, such as ignorance (both IC and OOC) in how the city manages its resources coupled with the common design issue of reward on your investment of time.
-LoD
Don't forget that both Allanak and Tuluk are being run by the two single most powerful sorcerers in the world, as far as anyone is aware. Tektolnes buried Steinal under the sands with a storm that, I imagine, needed less than a single IC week to finish the job.
This is a guy with insane magick powers. I'm sure that if Tektolnes really wanted to, he could support a city three times as large as Allanak and bring every single citizen out of poverty.
And Muk Utep can't be that inferior to Tektolnes, if he is at all. After all, Tektolnes didn't manage to dispose of him...apparently.
And the same goes with food. Export of food exists, and there are more food sources out there than simply the scrabs outside the walls. Mekillots have a lot of meat on them.
As for a third city state, as I said before - I'd much rather an almost completely mundane city, without a sorcerer king, nobles or templars. It could have a senate composed of large commoner families, or be composed of multiple human and elven tribes living in uneasy peace.
Also, that city state would execute any female whose breasts are larger than her brain.
Quote from: "richter"Where do people get their food? Someone has to be growing it. Producing enough food for 350,000 people is going to require massive agriculture. Hunting is a poor way to get food since the amount of time expended doesn't produce enough food to live off, especially in an environment where hunting is tough enough that people have to go around armored. Where do they get their water? A single location (or two) to get water in a city of 350,000? Good luck getting water this week.
There are a few points to consider. First, I would say that none of the cities are represented fully. I don't think that the all of the Allanak commons consists of 9 blocks, 3-4 of which are taken up with non-housing. It is safe to assume that the size of the cities is under drawn for playabilities sake. If you recall when Tuluk was first rebuilt, no one was terribly fond of Tuluk when there was an attempt to render it in its full sized glory. I would say it is safe to say that there is more then one point where templars distribute water, but that these places are not fully rendered in game.
As to food, there is a very good explanation as to where food comes from in Allanak. I can't speak for Tuluk, but I know that Allanak utilizes massive amounts of farm land not just around Allanak, but in multiple other areas as well.
Any new city would obviously have to be ruled by a Sorceror-QUEEN who then seduces both Tek and Muk and manipulates them into doing her will.
Duh.
I happen to know that there is a part of the land dedicated to growing in in the area between the Plains Gate and Chaitya's Gate in Tuluk. It's along the southern part. Go there and check it out somtime.
Quote from: "Vanth"Any new city would obviously have to be ruled by a Sorceror-QUEEN who then seduces both Tek and Muk and manipulates them into doing her will.
Is her name Vanth?
Quote from: "LoD"Richter writes:
QuoteWhere do people get their food? Someone has to be growing it. Producing enough food for 350,000 people is going to require massive agriculture. Hunting is a poor way to get food since the amount of time expended doesn't produce enough food to live off, especially in an environment where hunting is tough enough that people have to go around armored. Where do they get their water? A single location (or two) to get water in a city of 350,000? Good luck getting water this week.
This isn't a case of "fantasy" and "suspending your disbelief". This is just piss-poor design if that number is the serious estimate given after anything longer than two seconds of thought. Plus, there's no need for such a large population. It doesn't really serve any purpose game-wise.
This all sounds like a good research project for you to undertake if you want to know all the answers. Why do you feel there's only one source of water? Because that's the only place PC's are able to obtain water in a coded manner? I guess that means the entire populace has to follow the model that's more clearly based off playability than realism.
No. The idea that every single living person in Allanak has to walk to the temple to obtain water is simply narrow thinking. I would imagine most organizations order their water supply from the family/group that owns and operates it. The source? Do you know? Does anyone really know? Is it even represented in game to its fullest? Last I checked there were some elementalists capable of creating water pretty much out of thin air with gems around their necks. Have you taken the Pepsi challenge with regular water sold at the temple and magick water?
Again, the "magick water" argument doesn't hold...well, water. Why? If magick can create water, why can't it create an abundance of metal? Why don't the elementalists have legions of metal-armored troops if they can simply create something. I'm not disputing that such skills exist in-game, I'm suggesting that it's a poorly-conceived design to accomodate for large populations. Now, if the process is difficult or costly in time, it would make sense as to why such things aren't done routinely. However, that would also disallow for such processes being used to support large populations, since the amount of water needed to maintain a population would be considerably larger an order.
QuoteAs for food, do you live in a city? Does that city grow all its own food? Or does it import food from areas that -do- have the agriculture to support it? I'd imagine its the latter, and while Allanak does have in game sources of both agriculture and livestock, there are other remote areas that have the same which I expect to export food to Allanak.
Rome didn't grow its own food. It imported it from other parts of the Empire, most notably Egypt. However, Rome's population, while some estimate it as high as 1,000,000 at its peak, is generally accepted around a figure of 100,000. One-hundred thousand, despite more advanced technologies and far more arable growing areas than you'll find on Zalanthas. The Greek city-states everyone is familiar with were little more than large villages by modern population standards. Quite often, only a few thousand inhabitants constituted their populations.
QuoteI will agree with you that someone wanting to track and view the entire resource chain from beginning to end is going to be left wanting, but I would stray from calling it "piss-poor design" over a more plausible explanation, such as ignorance (both IC and OOC) in how the city manages its resources coupled with the common design issue of reward on your investment of time.
Actually, I significantly doubt any such "plausible explanation" exists. Why? The mechanics for such a design would most likely have to incorporate exagerrated calculations and under-developed realization of limitations in production. Large concentrated populations without significant technological advancement and resources are just not possible. And even when such populations do rise, they inevitably collapse through a lack of sustainability.
Quote from: "Larrath"And the same goes with food. Export of food exists, and there are more food sources out there than simply the scrabs outside the walls. Mekillots have a lot of meat on them.
Hunting is the most inefficient means of obtaining food. The term "hunter-gatherer society" is a misnomer. It should read "gatherer-hunter society" or just plain "gatherer society" since the hunters bring in little, and insignificant at that, of the food their cultures need to survive. It's mostly ritualistic and tradition. Without the women who do the gathering, such cultures would starve.
Additionally, agriculture based on livestock requires either a) significant grazing area, or b) significant crop production to feed the livestock. For example, corn production in the U.S. does not directly feed the population. Over 40% of corn grown in the U.S. is fed to livestock. Perhaps a quarter of total corn production is consumed by the population, a majority of that in the form of corn starch and corn syrup.
Something that people today don't realize is that aside from the century or so, meat has never constituted a significant portion of the diet of any culture. Without technological and agricultural advances to increase food production, people don't eat meat. They may claim they eat meat, but an examination of their diet reveals otherwise.
And importation of food in significant quantities to sustain a large population is difficult if not impossible. Cities are not out of the question, but the modern concept of a city's population is ridiculous. Until fairly recent times (last two or three centuries), concentrated populations were simply not possible given technological limitations. Zalanthas is even more confined by such limitations. Five thousand? Sure. Ten thousand? Yeah, it's probably possible with a good degree of organization. Fifteen thousand? Perhaps. But 350,000? Not a chance.
Take care,
Jason
Quote from: "Vivaduan (among the most common type of elementalists) Helpfile"
Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the
parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an
expert water mage on a long journey.
Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of
water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease,
and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or
purify, to create or destroy.
Whether or not magickers can create metal, find out IC. What magick can do in-game? Find out IC. Magick exists in Zalanthas, and there is FAR more magick out there than you realize. How much water can a single water elementalist create in a day? Find out IC. Can Tektolnes make fifty times that much in one minute? I say it's a safe bet.
Your suggestion that this is a poor design has been rejected.
A mekillot isn't a grizzly bear that can feed eight people. A mekillot is a GIGANTIC reptile, roughly the size of an small suburban house, and they feed on enormous salt worms. A mekillot has more meat than twenty bears. Stop thinking in RL terms, or at least think more in the terms of a society where whale-hunters supply some meat. Bring in a few large whales and there is a big bunch of meat.
Rome was not in a fantasy world. Allanak is. Allanak's farming, for all we know, could well be supported by magick. And don't start saying "well magick blah blah magick snowmen". There IS magick in Zalanthas, whether you like it or not, and one prominent person in Zalanthas, Tektolnes, once used it to bury an entire city-state under the sand. We're not talking about pulling pennies from inside people's ears.
Meat constitutes a large portion of the diet of most Zalanthan cultures, because it's more readily available than large quantities of fruit.
Do everyone a favor, richter, and learn why these things are IC and STOP comparing everything to the real world and to Rome. This is not the real world, and bring up another snowman and I swear I will kill you. Get with the program. Please.
Quote from: "Larrath"Quote from: "Vivaduan (among the most common type of elementalists) Helpfile"
Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the
parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an
expert water mage on a long journey.
Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of
water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease,
and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or
purify, to create or destroy.
Whether or not magickers can create metal, find out IC. What magick can do in-game? Find out IC. Magick exists in Zalanthas, and there is FAR more magick out there than you realize. How much water can a single water elementalist create in a day? Find out IC. Can Tektolnes make fifty times that much in one minute? I say it's a safe bet.
Your suggestion that this is a poor design has been rejected.
Rejected is a poor choice of terms. Denied is more accurate.
QuoteA mekillot isn't a grizzly bear that can feed eight people. A mekillot is a GIGANTIC reptile, roughly the size of an small suburban house, and they feed on enormous salt worms. A mekillot has more meat than twenty bears. Stop thinking in RL terms, or at least think more in the terms of a society where whale-hunters supply some meat. Bring in a few large whales and there is a big bunch of meat.
And how are you bringing this "GIGANTIC reptile" back? Towing it across the desert? That takes time. Meat rots, which is why it's cooked or salted. So how are you bringing all this meat back? You can't simply drag it behind your boat (or salt it and take it back...why...cause you aren't using a boat).
QuoteRome was not in a fantasy world. Allanak is. Allanak's farming, for all we know, could well be supported by magick. And don't start saying "well magick blah blah magick snowmen". There IS magick in Zalanthas, whether you like it or not, and one prominent person in Zalanthas, Tektolnes, once used it to bury an entire city-state under the sand. We're not talking about pulling pennies from inside people's ears.
I don't doubt nor do I question the inclusion of magick in the game world (as is said, it's fantasy). However, the "magick argument" falls apart when you use it for excusing oversight in design. So he buried an entire city-state under sand. It's easier to destroy than it is create. That's something everyone, from a toddler to an old man learns. It's entropy in practice. But the constant attention to maintain a uselessly large population through application of magick defies reason.
QuoteMeat constitutes a large portion of the diet of most Zalanthan cultures, because it's more readily available than large quantities of fruit.
I'm not doubting that. In fact, I'm it actually supports my position. It is why large populations become impractical because of the amount of energy that must be exerted to feed a population through such an inefficient becomes a limiting factor on population growth and sustainability.
QuoteDo everyone a favor, richter, and learn why these things are IC and STOP comparing everything to the real world and to Rome. This is not the real world, and bring up another snowman and I swear I will kill you. Get with the program. Please.
Your frustration suggests you're aware of the rationalizations you're using to support a flawed premise. I'm not going to threaten to "kill you" if you maintain your ignorance and irrational thought. But I appreciate the "please" so I'll use the same. To use your own words, "do everyone a favor" and think about the how and why instead of accepting everything without question and rationalizing reasons for your stubborn acceptance of concepts that even you seem to realize don't make sense. Please.
Take care,
Jason
QuoteSomething that people today don't realize is that aside from the century or so, meat has never constituted a significant portion of the diet of any culture. Without technological and agricultural advances to increase food production, people don't eat meat. They may claim they eat meat, but an examination of their diet reveals otherwise.
And importation of food in significant quantities to sustain a large population is difficult if not impossible. Cities are not out of the question, but the modern concept of a city's population is ridiculous. Until fairly recent times (last two or three centuries), concentrated populations were simply not possible given technological limitations. Zalanthas is even more confined by such limitations. Five thousand? Sure. Ten thousand? Yeah, it's probably possible with a good degree of organization. Fifteen thousand? Perhaps. But 350,000? Not a chance.
Take care,
Jason
I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think that any number of justifications can be made to counter your arguement that won't satisfy you because they aren't rooted in our world. I chose long ago to avoid dissatisfaction with accepting the fact that Zalanthas is not Earth, its people are not Earth humans and its structure is never going to be easily explainable. The most important thing is to understand that for the game to operate efficiently and be entertaining, it doesn't have to be.
If you argue this point, why not argue these as well:
1. How can people POSSIBLY use telepathy to communicate?
2. Fireballs from someone's fingers!? What's that about?
3. Uh...that guy just "created" some water out of nothing, what a crock.
4. Sentient bugs? There's nothing like that on Earth!
5. That whole sorc-king killing you with his mind is such balone...urk!
There are likely thousands of topics that don't match traditions, physics or truths of our mundane planet, Earth. The reason they work in game is because we suspend belief and accept some truths even though they may not work out in our world.
-Zalanthan humans may not need as much food/water to survive.
-Magick may play a part in how the city populace is maintained.
-Foods with enchanced nutrional value may result in lowered needs.
Who knows? I don't. You don't. If someone stood up at a screening of "Finding Nemo" and started debating this movie is "piss-poor" because fish can't really talk, would you stand up and agree or ask him to sit down, be quiet and let you enjoy the game...er movie. ;)
-LoD
Quote from: "LoD"I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think that any number of justifications can be made to counter your arguement that won't satisfy you because they aren't rooted in our world. I chose long ago to avoid dissatisfaction with accepting the fact that Zalanthas is not Earth, its people are not Earth humans and its structure is never going to be easily explainable. The most important thing is to understand that for the game to operate efficiently and be entertaining, it doesn't have to be.
The problem is that some of these things, like the population discrepancies, are not rooted in design so much as misconception. I routinely find that people believe that cities are always large and that people always eat meat. These thoughts are the result of our culture's relative ignorance of anything outside of the last few years. On the MUD I used to work for, it was discovered that weapon weights were all much higher than they should be. Why? Because the people that built them earlier had never actually held a sword in their hand. They thought a broadsword weighed eight pounds. In discussing Greek city-states with people, they were always amazed to learn that the population of Athens in the 4th Century BCE was not hundreds of thousands or millions. Why? Because their concept of cities was influenced by modern populations of millions. I recall many, many years ago when a professor asked the class what the population of the New World was before the Columbian conquest. Every estimate (except my own, being the only historian in the group) was at least ten times too small. Why? Because they all based their estimates on modern figures of "traditional cultures" in reservations and the mistaken belief that the Mayans, Aztecs, and Inca were not extinct...they're still around, just aren't often identified by such names.
Quote1. How can people POSSIBLY use telepathy to communicate?
2. Fireballs from someone's fingers!? What's that about?
3. Uh...that guy just "created" some water out of nothing, what a crock.
4. Sentient bugs? There's nothing like that on Earth!
5. That whole sorc-king killing you with his mind is such balone...urk!
There are likely thousands of topics that don't match traditions, physics or truths of our mundane planet, Earth. The reason they work in game is because we suspend belief and accept some truths even though they may not work out in our world.
Agreed, and I don't have a problem with fantasy as a genre. It's acceptable that there are differences between reality and fantasy worlds. Fantasy elements as part of the design are fine. But that doesn't excuse ignorance as a reason for turning to fantasy. With most of the game, real expecatations of certain aspects are accepted (bone comes from animals, and is not grown in pots from seeds; people eat food and wear clothes, not vice vera). Why? Because the game conforms to those expectations. But there are a few instances where the game doesn't conform to those expectations, yet fantasy explanations weren't provided to explain. Instead, they were provided afterwards by players to excuse when the discrepancies were noticed.
And again, I ask, what difference would it make if the population for Allanak was reasonably lowered to 20,000 to reflect a more rational and defensible figure? None. It only serves to strengthen the theme by making good on the claim of an exhaustive, comprehensive design.
Take care,
Jason
Allanak houses roughly half a million people. Though not in the documents, this is official. Explanations as to why and how it is possible are priveleged information that should be chased in-game. I'm sure Tektolnes has some reason to make a city-state and let people live there.
Whatever experience you've had in former MUDs and weapon weights, or what people think about greek city-states, just doesn't really matter here.
Bone coming from animals and bone having any fixed strength are two very different things, and don't pretend that they're not. Zalanthas' sky is seen as red or orange in most parts. That's the way it is. Allanak is capable of supporting half a million citizens, though a vast majority of those live in terrible poverty.
What difference would it make? It would make a difference when you have other groups with fixed numbers, such as tribes, mercenary companies and various other things. If the population of Allanak was 20,000 then 10,000 would be slaves that maintain the entire huge city, another 500 or so would be templars or nobles, 8,000 or so would be elves or dwarves, leaving 1,500 free citizens in Allanak. Say 500 of those are half-elves, leaving 1,000 citizens, over half of which are mercenaries.
The game is the way it is, richter. Seeming small flaws in the game and pointing them out while trying to help is a positive thing. Half-finding half-inventing basic flaws in the very core of the game and expecting THOSE to be fixed, creating a huge waste of time for the staff for no help whatsoever (an example would be having every other bone weapon edited to mention oil treatment to keep it from falling apart, or whatever) is not only not helpful, but it is also very annoying.
You said it yourself:
Quote from: "richter"I ask, what difference would it make if the population for Allanak was reasonably lowered to 20,000 to reflect [a figure I am personally more accepting towards]? None.
No difference.
I am officially finished with this thread. Please take a look at yourself, richter, at those boards, and try to picture how your posts are received, and take my word, as a normally rather nice person, that it's unlikely anyone cheers when they see you've made a new post.
QuoteAnd again, I ask, what difference would it make if the population for Allanak was reasonably lowered to 20,000 to reflect a more rational and defensible figure? None.
The best answer for this is that the Imms neither have to rationalize nor defend any figure they choose. It may not be realistic. It may not be plausible. It may simply be the whim of a madman sitting behind a terminal from which he gleans immense pleasure in Arm's complete inaccuracies. Another thing they don't have to do is share with you the "how's" and "why's" to help you understand why something exists as it does.
You seem to be of the belief that to accept that explanation makes you something less than you should be, stagnant or perhaps irresponsible. I think you put too much pressure on yourself. There are no perfect moments, and if you wait for one - you'll die waiting.
So as we don't clutter up the board with our different opinions, I'll leave it with the agreement that some changes could be made to bring many issues in game to a more rational and defendable level, should the Imms so choose. I just don't think it's a priority.
-LoD
In my own view - my own opinion is the best one.
In your view - yours is the best.
That is why we'll never agree unless you originally agree with me.
How do the city states maintain their populations? Well, as was pointed out Rome imported loads of grain. Just so happens that Allanak does the same.
Does that explain all the food sources? Nope 'cause there are more. And you know what? There are people starving in the streets. Some people even eat the flesh of other people.
What about water sources? Well, I won't go into that since it's beyond the scope of OOC information and IC information.
Quote from: "Larrath"Allanak houses roughly half a million people. Though not in the documents, this is official.
If it's not in the documents, then there's nothing preventing number modifications to be formally documented to reflect a more thought-out number.
QuoteExplanations as to why and how it is possible are priveleged information that should be chased in-game. I'm sure Tektolnes has some reason to make a city-state and let people live there.
Rationalization.
QuoteWhatever experience you've had in former MUDs and weapon weights, or what people think about greek city-states, just doesn't really matter here.
That may be so, but it doesn't provide any defense for poor design.
QuoteBone coming from animals and bone having any fixed strength are two very different things, and don't pretend that they're not.
Are you suggesting bone with fixed strength doesn't come from animals? :roll: Aside from the isilt reference, there's no explanation for how bone that isn't described as isilt is treated.
QuoteZalanthas' sky is seen as red or orange in most parts.
And there are rational explanations for such phenomena.
QuoteAllanak is capable of supporting half a million citizens, though a vast majority of those live in terrible poverty.
Actually, you haven't proven it is capable of supporting half a million citizens. What you've done is cite a figure when the documentation of the game provides an environment which supports a very different number.
QuoteWhat difference would it make? It would make a difference when you have other groups with fixed numbers, such as tribes, mercenary companies and various other things. If the population of Allanak was 20,000 then 10,000 would be slaves that maintain the entire huge city, another 500 or so would be templars or nobles, 8,000 or so would be elves or dwarves, leaving 1,500 free citizens in Allanak. Say 500 of those are half-elves, leaving 1,000 citizens, over half of which are mercenaries.
Fixed numbers that aren't fixed within reason are just as poorly conceived. So yes, adjustments would have to be made, which you just did above. Wasn't that hard, was it?
QuoteThe game is the way it is, richter. Seeming small flaws in the game and pointing them out while trying to help is a positive thing. Half-finding half-inventing basic flaws in the very core of the game and expecting THOSE to be fixed, creating a huge waste of time for the staff for no help whatsoever (an example would be having every other bone weapon edited to mention oil treatment to keep it from falling apart, or whatever) is not only not helpful, but it is also very annoying.
Poor game design is hardly "half-finding half-inventing". Rationalizing ignorant mistakes is. If game integrity matters so little, why bother with anything? Just make it up as you go.
As for correcting mistakes, it actually doesn't take a lot of time. Bone weapons don't actually have to be modified, only that such weapons which exceed reasonable material tolerances be removed/replaced with weapons which don't.
I can't say I'm familiar with this particular code, but if it's anything like that which I've worked with, it'd be as simple as:
olist +rapier
replace <vnum A> with <vnum B>QuoteI am officially finished with this thread. Please take a look at yourself, richter, at those boards, and try to picture how your posts are received, and take my word, as a normally rather nice person, that it's unlikely anyone cheers when they see you've made a new post.
And honestly, that's irrelevant to the point. Whether they like me or not doesn't change anything I said, even if they want to kill the messenger because of the message. If anyone has a problem with me, I really couldn't give a damn. Not everyone agrees with me and not everyone disagrees with me (I'd be worried if the fanboys agreed with me). It's a fact of life that people disagree.
So if "it's unlikely anyone cheers" (something I know is untrue as I've had several players agree with my points), I'd recommend your advice to them as well as yourself. Ask yourself why someone pointing out a good-intentioned criticism draws negative response or feelings. Is the problem the messenger or simply that you don't like the message? Is it because you can't defend that which you support so you're forced to turn to rationalization and bitterness toward those who disagree?
If you really take the time to think about it, the answer might disturb you.
Take care,
Jason
I'm positive that the Imms are not going to lower the population - the game is written up with a such figures in mind from the cities geographical size to the numbers of people in all the various levels of the different organisations, etc. This is not all going to be revised because one player is doing his nut in about how ridiculous the population size is - everybody else seems to be able to somehow rationalise the number without the cognitive dissonance making their head explode. Now, we can sit here and argue until the kanks come home but absolutely nothing is going to change because of our efforts. Personally, I'd prefer to put my effort into doing something which would actually yield a beneficial result and I'd prefer to see the Imms concentrating elsewhere too. If it really bothers you that much perhaps you can special app a dwarven defiler who's focus is "to bring the population sizes of the major centres of civilisation down to realistic levels".
Besides, with the PC death rate averaged with the NPC and possible VNPC mortalities, we'd run out of population to make our PCs with if there weren't at least half a million in Nak and Tuluk.
Back on Topic/
If there was a third city state, it'd have to have just as powerful a Sorc-King as Tuluk and Allanak along with ample military and fortifications or else it would go kaput, IMO.
Part of the reason the number has to be on the high side is playability, so that the lives of the PCs make sense within world.
Most PCs are either monumentally stupid or suicidally insane, at least compared to the VNPC masses. During their VNPC childhoods most live typical, unremarkable lives, and then one day the get possessed by a player and become PCs, at which point they start hobnobbing with the nobility, meeting captains of industry, joining the army or a multi-national corporation, running out into the wilderness chasing fame and fortune, sticking their hands in the pockets of men with bad tempers and big swords, ignoring or avoiding their family and lifelong friends, or any number of other unlikely things. To their VNPC friends and relatives, it must look like they have gone nuts . . . except that the VNPCs don't actually exist as individuals. PCs act oddly, but in order to keep that behavior odd there has to be an ocean of normal people balancing them out.
In the past RL year (about 8 years IC) there have probably been more than a hundred PCs die in hunting accidents, I'm just guessing but hundreds doesn't seem unreasonable. Since most hunters and trappers practice their profession for decades without dying, there must thousands of non-dead hunters out there working. Hunting is dangerous, but not so dangerous that you'd think it was normal for 90% of hunters to die every year, maybe 10-20% die in a year but certainly no more than that. Since it is dangerous, most people from cities doesn't want to be hunters. If hunters make up a small portion of the total population, and PCs make up a small portion of hunters, there there must be a large population for there to be so many PC hunters.
Or take half-elves. Half-elves are uncommon in the general population. All of the PC half-elves that are going to be created in the next 15 IC years (roughly 2 RL years) must already exist as VNPC children, teenagers, and young adults. That includes all the ones who will die 3 hours after creation, since they virtually lived many years before becoming PCs. Dozens and dozens, probably hundreds of them. Lets say that PCs make up half of the total half-elf population, the other half being NPCs and VNPCs that will never become PCs (in order for the NPC and VNPC population to set the bar for what is "normal" there have to be at least as many of them as there are PCs). So there are definitely hundreds of half-elves alive right this minute in the Known World. What portion of the population could reasonably be expected to be half-elven? 1%? .1%? .01%? I don't know. Sexual relations between humans and elves seem to be very uncommon, most sexual encounters do not lead to pregnancy, and many half-elven children seem to be abandoned or so badly treated that many of them wouldn't survive to adulthood. Second generation half-elves are also very rare, they don't seem to be big breeders. If you have hundreds of half-elves, and only 1 in 1000 people is an half-elf, then you must have hundreds of thousands of people.
Keeping the virtual population large keeps PCs as small part of the total population. If 40 PCs die during a big event, then that is a cataclysmic PC population turn over for that time-slot, but not necessarily a cataclysmic event for the general population. You can assume that hundreds of people died in total (counting PCs, NPCs and VNPCs) but not that half the population of a city died just because half the PC population of that city died. The large virtual population provides a necessary buffer.
Angela Christine
So Allanak has a lot of people. Kanks should imploded in on themselves. There is a reason why insects are so small in the real world. Exo-skeletons are absolutely worthless at supporting anything bigger then a mouse. The desert should have almost no large predators. Only one intelligent species should exist as the superior intelligent species tends to kill off competition quickly. You should be able to walk across the top of the sea of silt as fine particles like that would compact into something hard very quickly. If there is a lack of iron in the world, the Red Desert should not be red.
The lack of realistic quality is endless. I am sure I could fill up a page if I really was dying to do so. That said, I very much do not want to log into the game one day and have my kank explode because its chitin can't support its own weight, much less mine. I am more then happy to suspend my disbelief. Yes, technically the Sea of Silt should not exist, but I can merrily rationalize its existence because I like the idea of a big sea of dust. I also can ignore that red sands generally means lots of iron because I like the visage of a red sands desert. In this same regard, I can rationalize the existent of a completely urban civilization with a population to rival Rome because I like the idea of a big fucking city in the middle of the desert. My head does not explode when I realize that feeding that many people in a desert is hard or close to impossible.
The only thing that matters is that world is consistent to itself. So, it is okay for kanks to wander around without imploding. This also means that kank shell is actually decent armor, unlike the brittle crap that a real insect has. Allanak has the means to support itself. Burn Allanak's fields and the population will starve. Hell, this has happened in the past. Allanak had its fields burned and the population starved. Blockade Allanak from the food it gets from other areas and the city will starve. Do I give a damn that the square mileage of the fields might be less then they should be if they were growing Idaho potatoes? No, so long as the game is consistent with itself.
The larger point is that the game is consistent with itself. Its consistency goes down to the detail that is required and not a step further. Want to rationalize kanks? Okay, kanks have harder and lighter chitin then insects in real life. Can the molecular formula of that chitin be justified? Who gives a damn. So, why can Allanak feed itself? It can feed itself because it brings in enough food from other places in the empire and some other independent farming villages (all of which exist in game). Cut Allanak off from those sources and the city starves. What is the nutritional value of the crops Allanak grows and how much land areas does it require to feed half of a million people? Who cares? It is like asking why kank chitin is strong enough and light enough to support a kank. If someone wants to figure out the land area of farming available and the required nutritional intake per square acre, more power to them. Personally though, I would rather the imms work on expanding plots and adding to the game.
An elkran starts his life as a reenegade close to Allanak. He gets chased just because of his ability, many times he gets injured and many times he hears the words: "MAGICKER!"...
The last drop, one day a man whom he saves from a beetle in a blinding storm, tries to kill him with a poisoned dagger. He says: "Fuck off!" and leaves to the deserts.
With his abilities which are too IC to explain deeply, he has the means to live in the desert without need to anyone and anything, since he's a master in his abilities. He keeps on an easy life, at the edge of the known world, where there are only creatures which are possibly too IC to name in here.
But then the problem arises: Loneliness.. He believes he needs companions, heads back to the closest city.. He manages to come across a couple, a rukkian man with his partner, a beautiful vivaduan. Arms crossed behind he approaches. After many promises that he means no harm, he befriends the couple. He finds out they also do hate the mundane life all around them and they're at the edge, about to growl "Fuck you all!" and head to the desert.
So he says: "Why not? Let's go." He takes them to his hideout close to the edge of the known world. With the rukkian's unbelieveable control over the sands and the stones, they build a simple dwelling and start living there.
Then... bad things happen. A defiler suddenly arrives one day, asking for loyalty in his fight against bla-bla-bla. They defend themselves and they defend well.. The rukkian dies. So does the defiler. After kicking the lopped off head of the defiler one last time and watching the rukkian's corpse crumbling to dust as one last grace from Ruk, they head back to the closest city.
This time they stay for long, managing to group with many magickers of all elements but nilaz, who hear their tales of a life away from the mundane world all around. They head back to the edge of the world with cheer. Rukkians build and feed the others, vivaduans summon the waters underground. Whirans scout in shifts in short range, while the Drovians wander the world every night seeking more citizens for the village. Elkrans and krathis, empowered by other magickers, slay anything mundane, or having the sign of Nilaz or sorcery in their souls.
They breed. With the increased population a new problem arises. Most children do not have any links to the elements of their parents. So a rule is set. All mundane folks of the village wear gems denoting their lack of power. They're mainly used for serving tasks and never let out of the city. The gemmed are not allowed to breed, for sure. They serve the magickers like slaves and die like the helpless fools they are, performing the long awaited avenge of the elementalist society upon mundane folks.
.................
One day this may be done IC.. Perhaps when the playerbase is more than 100 in peak times.
I dont believe that hunting is a ineffective way to get food. Take a scrab for instance. A scrab is many times the size of a human and if a human were to kill that thing he'd probably have enough food to live off of for a few days. I understand one wouldnt be able to make a lot of money hunting but they would be fed fairly well.
This is terrible, it's taken me a while to come across this thread but...
QuoteHere's one of mine: The city-state would be ruled by an elven sorceror-queen and in this city-state elves would be the majority. All nobility and positions of power would be elves, humans would be considered the lowly scum, like vermin. By law of the sorceror-queen, females hold all positions of power and males are not allowed any sort of open power. To harm a female in any way is a death sentence. No non-elves with magicks are allowed to live. Elven mages are allowed to come and go openly as long as they don't use their powers in a harmful way within the city. Half-elves are slaves and servants, there are no free half-elves within the city.
Though it is a decent idea, I just have to pose one question...
Menzoberrazan(hope I spelled that right)?
How about a city of Magickers? :twisted:
An odd gooey material is discovered within the territories where Mantises roam by Mantises themselves. It has organic properties and is quickly tried by the Mantis as nourishment. Oddly, the substance suddenly increase the intellect level of the Mantis, making some of them generate strong individual psionic personalities that allows more creativity and individual persuits lead by few extra individualistic mantises and the rest of the brood under their psionic influence. With time, as the substance is sought out further, first signs of a gignatic egg are found underneath the ground. Once further investigated an odd entity is sensed who then introduces itself as the child of The Dragon, yet to break through the shell of it's egg. Strangely, the egg is exhuming that substance that is lately found out to allow any mortal wield considerable magical and psionic powers for a limited time in exchange for addiction and slight alteration within the psyche. With time, a whole settlement appears around the egg, with ruling entities of humen, elven, and mantises intermixed rule over their slaves with power granted by feeding onto that strange substance, while the slaves dig and carry in order to dig the gigantic egg century after century..
QuoteAnother sentient (and probably humanoid) race is discovered living under
the surface of the Known World that was, previously, as ignorant about
the topside world as it was of them. Pretty much anything can happen,
here. Except molemen, that's been done to death.
Brahm was doing a sociology thing for school and created some concept like this that, I think, was going to be implemented. Of course, that was, like, a decade ago.
I somewhat like larrath's idea about the Gith. I have thought them to be a primal race...not really caring about anything other than their days meal or they're own self benefit.
What if...one of the gith tribes could actually think...and had a bit more to go on than instinct.
I figured maybe a noble who was very ambitious, would find a use for the gith, and educate them somewhat. Like, a noble from allanak wants the gith to move north to start roaming the roads near tuluk and disrupt their trade a bit. For the Gith's services, he somehow finds a way to make them realize that they would be granted safety and trade in the south, and they would slowly benefit from this. Drawn by one tribes success, the wandering gith return to benefit from this. The gith leader's fight over power through duel's...and one emerges as the strongest. The gith follow his rule, and slowly, over time, develope a village....and through the trade with allanak, it would grow.
Now. What would thisd city do? A barbaric race of humaniods with a loose form of culture...Well, I would think the elven tribes would be in somewhat of danger near the Gith's city, for the gith wouldn't be on any restrictions concerning the deaths of tribals. Over time, maybe the gith could either learn from Allanak's or Tuluk's social structure, (but that would be near impossible) or, they could develope a loose social ranking system, where the strongest gith warriors are the leaders in the city, and they serve under their lord, the Gith king.
Now the last little bit I thought of, is that the noble who initiated all of this, if he was still alive, would be allowed into the gith city, and he could teach sirihish to the Gith King, and the king in turn to his vassals, and it would filter down into society.
Why not? :P
Primal is not how I would describe gith myself. They're assholes, actually.
Gith are intelligent and sentient, capable of strategic thinking and cruel
action. They're dangerous because they're a malevolent force in the
wastes that wants everyone's belongings and lives. Brutality is as natural
to them as breathing is to everyone else. They pretty much are to the
character races what the character races are to Earth humans.
Ummm...I haven't the time to read all the suggestions, and it would seem the topic got derailed anyway. If you ask me, the best concept for a new citystate would be a dwarven one. Not just dwarves, mind you, but one that is founded and ruled by dwarves. Even better, and I know this is not so much a concept common to our dwarves, they should find a big 'ol cavern somewhere to build the city. Dwarves have so much more reason to band together. Tribal elves have their tribes and are too distrusting to unite with other tribes. We already have two "human" city states (I will gladly concede they are not really human, but you get my meaning). The dwarves have the drive and determination to make it happen (AKA focus) and they have the motivation (dwarven slavery ring a bell?) Ahh, screw it. I'm going to make it happen IC. See you all on the front lines when we storm 'Nak!!
I think that JustThisGuy has has a good point. Dwarves definetly have the ability to run their own city. I mean it wouldn't be the most civilized city but it would create an awesome rping environment and open a new plate for players who prefer dwarven play.
First of all, Titansfan: there can be only one NFL fan on this gdb from Wisconsin and that is me. NOT TO MENTION YOU ARE FROM WISCONSIN AND YOU MUST LIKE THE PACKERS.
But I digress. I would love to see a predominantly Dwarven city-state.
F dwarves...sure, they may be great at running a city, but they may also have ridiculous difficulty, depending on foci.
A very interesting discussion. If we ever have enough players to support it, I would love to see a new city state emerge. I believe the main question is, however, how and where would it emerge? It would need time to grow without being crushed by the existing sorcerer kings. The possibilities I see are:
-An existing outpost develops to the size of a city.
-A secret settlement has developed beyond the attention of the existing city states, maybe somewhere underground, and survived long enough to develop massive defenses and not be easily overthrown as it is now discovered.
-Somehow, the border of the known world expands, and there are now means to travel a bit further. Slightly beyond the formerly known world, a new city-state is discovered. It is hard to reach, and ruled by forces powerful enough to make Tek or Muk Utep think twice about trying to overrun it.
My personal favourite is the last option, but I doubt it would happen as it would take up horrible amounts of staff time to write that many new rooms and expand the known world.
If I wrote it up, it would be somewhat inspired by George R.R. Martin's city of Braavos - without all of the water. A strange, exotic place which has access to all sort of goods, many of them previously unknown, which are highly priced in the other city states and would open up options for trade routes. The city would be very hard, but not impossible to reach, and travel would be more dangerous than riding from Allanak to Tuluk and back currently is. This new city is ruled by a temple which claims to have power over life and death, its templars clad in black and white, and a warrior caste that employs beastmasters with the ability to tame and train monsters and send them into battle. The city has a fabled and strange culture, where common merchants dress in silks and jewelry, but highborn men wear sandcloth robes and masks, and duel for the favor of courtesans whose fame is nearly legendary.
Quote from: "Akaramu"This new city is ruled by a temple which claims to have power over life and death, its templars clad in black and white, and a warrior caste that employs beastmasters with the ability to tame and train monsters and send them into battle.
So all their soldiers fight with... pokemon'?
The city state of Riphia.
Flag: Three vibrant blue diamonds symbolizing the constellation Riphia
against a dark brown field; the queen is credited for being that figure in
the night sky and for constructing the city, naming it for herself. The
three diamonds symbolize the major noble houses of the city-state.
West of the Tablelands, north of the Canyons of Waste is an isolationist
city that broke its ties from the rest of the Known World long ago. The
Canyons of Waste as you know them today are, in fact, the ruins of three
trade routes intersecting from the high plateaus of the Eba'Zir region to
the lower altitudes of Vrun Driath and Abili'Pah. There was once a trading
village that defied the powerful queen of that city. She did, in her mad
haste for revenge, permanently cut off the city from the remainder of the
Known World for all time.
The city contains many of the normal aspects of a city-state: Dwarves,
elves, muls, half-giants, templars, elementalists, criminals, merchants,
and so on. However, over time, the forced isolation of the city has made
some distinct changes on the society.
As a provision, all military is drafted from the populace: no questions
asked. Most individuals serve a two to four year term and are released;
exemplary performance leads to promotion and a career. Magickers of
all stripes are hunted down and killed just for being what they are. If a
psi is found, however, they are pressed into service for the city as one of
the Queen's assistants. These individuals are the equals of templars and
nobles, but are not born into service, which creates what she considers
"healthy tension" between the groups. These psis are feared by the
populace in much the same way elementalists are in Allanak. It is very
rare for a psi to turn down the chance for promotion, but the occasional
one does and either becomes an outlaw or is executed by the other psis.
There is only one major merchant house in the city due to the limited
supplies of the surrounding area. This house is owned by Riphia's
templars and helps maintain order and distribution of goods in the city.
Independent merchants rise from time to time, but House Riphia does try
to buy them into the fold if they become too powerful (think Microsoft).
Any who try to resist must either become outlaws (leading to a black
market of sorts) or be executed.
Three major noble houses, each with two vassals (on average) run the
acquisition of raw materials and foodstuffs that keep the city-state
operating. The leading house's elders are said to become the personal
lovers and consorts of the Queen herself; the lowest of the vassal houses
are said to service the populace in an elaborate festivals that they are
forced to pay for out of their own pockets. As such, the competition
amongst the nobles to at least avoid being the losers is fierce. Over the
course of history, three or four houses have actually been wiped out in
the infighting. What usually happens is a new house is formed from the
family of the most prominent templar or psi without a noble clan to claim
them...and thus the mad cycle continues.
The templars are said to be conduits to Riphia itself, able to automatically
take control of and enlist any commoner against their will...even criminals.
During these brief periods of time, commoners have reported wielding
strange powers and being able to perform bizarre physical feats under
their controlling templar's command. A lone templar is more vulnerable,
but even they have been said to make the strange architecture of the
city come to life and defend them.
Most criminals in the city reside inside a system of tunnels beneath the
city itself, lower even than the sewer system, known as the Bowels. They
are cracks and passageways in the architecture of what is thought to be
the city predating Riphia itself, but no one says that in front of the
templarate. There, escaped merchants, escaped magickers, elves, the
occasional escaped psi and other misanthropes eke out a living far from
the eyes of civilization...or die trying.
Citizens wear their hair long, dying it the colors of their station. This is
often matched by elaborate designs carved into their backs at puberty to
ensure authenticity. Forgery of station is punishable by death. As you
can imagine, dwarves and muls generally have no station other than
slave (sorry guys).
The high altitude and distance from both the Red Desert and the Silt Sea
has granted more vegetation to the area, allowing for silk, fruits, nuts and
vegetables to be harvested. Pooling sufficient water, clay has been used
for tablets due to the absence of wood (and therefore paper). Most other
hard stones and rocks are difficult to come by. The climate is cooler and
moister, but the air is thinner...presumably the reason for the site of the
city's construction.
All templars are considered to be Riphia's children and all nobles are
considered to be her relatives. For unknown reasons, a single commoner
is sometimes adopted into the higher castes by Riphia. Due to the
legendary temper of the Queen, no one asks why. None but the highest
ranks of the templarate and nobles ever see the Queen, and they have
all been tight-lipped about it.
Decadence and pageantry are the order of the day. Parades, stunning
shows and excess are lavished upon the commoners of the city. And
despite all of this, the city is dying. Isolation has created strains of
inbreeding among the populace and lack of decent stones and hard
materials is causing the city to crumble and fray along the edges. The
Known World factors into their mythos, and many (particularly elves)
have begun trying to re-establish the old pathways back into the rest of
the Known World and a reconnection to the trades long denied to them.
Ok, didn't read all 7 pages, but has anyone said "empty" yet?
Addendum...
Sandstorms are non-existent, but hailstorms and random strikes of
lightning are all too common. In fact, most of the moisture in the Eba'Zir
consists of melted hail. Rainfall is non-existent, but dew does settle at
night. It is not uncommon for the high altitudes to cause wild weather
changes and even nighttime freezes, making travel by night across the
limited landscape potentially dangerous.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Addendum...
Sandstorms are non-existent, but hailstorms and random strikes of
lightning are all too common. In fact, most of the moisture in the Eba'Zir
consists of melted hail. Rainfall is non-existent, but dew does settle at
night. It is not uncommon for the high altitudes to cause wild weather
changes and even nighttime freezes, making travel by night across the
limited landscape potentially dangerous.
I dunno... addendum doesn't really sound right... how about.... the mystical city of nightfall
or... Tier's outpost
QuoteI dunno... addendum doesn't really sound right... how about.... the mystical city of nightfall
or... Tier's outpost
Well...it was meant to be an addendum to the very large post above it
about Riphia. Sorry for the confusion there.
Awesome stuff, Intrepid.
There any particular stance on elves?
Is a child being taken from a family viewed more as theft of the child or a great honor bestowed upon the family?
QuoteAwesome stuff, Intrepid.
Thank you. :) I doubt it will ever be used, but it was fun to write. And
who knows, maybe the imms can use pieces of it in various parts of the
game or something.
QuoteThere any particular stance on elves?
Well, the way I wrote up Riphia was to match all the various themes in
the other two city-states as a three way opposition rather than the current
two way opposition we have between Tuluk and Allanak; things that
Tuluk and Allanak have in common would generally be found in Riphia
as well, for the most part, so the same racial tensions found in Tuluk and
Allanak can be found in Riphia, I imagine.
QuoteIs a child being taken from a family viewed more as theft of the child or a great honor bestowed upon the family?
I think you mean pressed into service as a psi or a soldier, right? As a
soldier, it's considered a necessity, one every able-bodied Riphian has
to go through. But as a psi, it tends to vary from family to family as a
mixture between opportunity to relief to fear. Some parents would, I
imagine, even wonder if they did something wrong (or correct) in how
they raised their child.
If there was a city-state where elves were in charge and humans were scum, wouldn't all the elves of the current city-states move there, and the humans of that new city-state move to on of the two others where they wouldn't be considered scum by default?
And that would make for some less interesting societies :)
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Supreme Allah"Is a child being taken from a family viewed more as theft of the child or a great honor bestowed upon the family?
I think you mean pressed into service as a psi or a soldier, right?
No, no. I was referring to this, Intrepid:
Quote from: "Intrepid"All templars are considered to be Riphia's children and all nobles are
considered to be her relatives. For unknown reasons, a single commoner
is sometimes adopted into the higher castes by Riphia. Due to the
legendary temper of the Queen, no one asks why. None but the highest
ranks of the templarate and nobles ever see the Queen, and they have
all been tight-lipped about it.
Definitely, Supreme Allah. It's a rare opportunity (aside from being found
a psi, which is double-edged honor) to actually break into the higher
castes.
QuoteIf there was a city-state where elves were in charge and humans were scum, wouldn't all the elves of the current city-states move there, and the humans of that new city-state move to on of the two others where they wouldn't be considered scum by default?
Thing is, there is no such thing as elven camraderie--and if one such
group of elves did exhibit it, all the other groups of elves would prey
upon their naivette until they stopped behaving so. Just because one
tribe got large enough and lucky enough to make a city does not mean
that they would have particularly good feelings toward others of their
race. An elf from a seperate tribe might as well be someone of another
race--the main difference is, elves usually count on each other to be
absolute scoundrels.
Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"Quote from: "Twilight"A city that is at first glance ruled by a single elven tribe, but is in super sekrit fact run by a human psionicist who has "convinced" elves of differing tribes that they are in fact part of the same tribe, and that he is their ruler.
That's got a nice twist to it.
A human pulling one on an elf -- An entire elven tribe at that. Nice.
I'd like to suggest that the area have a different language entirely. THAT would make things fun.
Or the could speak Tatlum. All the more reason to hate the "new" guys, they are going to teach everyone your secret templar language!
Angela Christine
I bet the next Highlord's name would be 'Amos'!
Tatlum is a pretty old language. I guess it would all depend on how long
ago the new guys became isolated from the rest of the Known World.
Of course, Bendune is an old tongue too.