Author Topic: Remove infinity silk merchants  (Read 543 times)

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 9820
Remove infinity silk merchants
« on: October 09, 2018, 01:28:01 AM »
Take silk out of autostocking NPC shops, have it be something you order from Kadius who has to ship it from Morins or something? INDIE CRAFTERS AGAINST THE WALL

Dar

  • Posts: 1318
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 01:29:55 AM »
The industry of fabrics is in it's entirety a little out of whack. Linen can only be purchased in Allanak currently.

Heade

  • Posts: 504
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 01:43:32 AM »
@Dar: That isn't true. There are other places to buy linen.

@OP: No, thanks.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Cind

  • Posts: 1598
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 03:03:14 AM »
The merchant houses have a thing about not selling raw goods themselves, actually.
Look, a petting tregil.  So silky...Feel him.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5216
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 07:15:05 AM »
The merchant houses have a thing about not selling raw goods themselves, actually.
Ummm no.  They deal in raw goods in certain locations.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1318
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 10:19:03 AM »
@Dar: That isn't true. There are other places to buy linen.

@OP: No, thanks.


Mmm Think I'm confusing things. I ment sandcloth maybe? Or maybe I'm stupid. Nevermind. Nothing to see here. Dont make me stab you!

tapas

  • Posts: 294
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 12:47:28 PM »
It is kind of silly that you can produce silk items exceptionally easily but could get thrown into the arena for wearing them.

Delirium

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Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 12:51:34 PM »
I'm completely ok with making silk lengths more expensive and/or limited for non-Kadius crafters.

BUT

This sounds like something Kadius could pursue IG. Why not try to muscle out that silk seller and make a plot of it?
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Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 12:58:33 PM »
Linen is available in Allanak and [other place].
Sandcloth and Silk is only available in Allanak currently.
[Other material] is only available in [other place 2 electric boogaloo].

This should be altered so more materials are available in more places.

I disagree with making silk more expensive for indie crafters - it's already expensive as hell, and literally every unclanned recipe for it will never make profit, only return even or loss. The only reason to cut off silk currently is to limit availability to be petty as hell.

I wouldn't be opposed to silk being limited in general though: 10 of each on each server reset at the Allanak store (reorderable by Kadius staff), if you don't get there first or get there when someone resells some then sucks to be you.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 01:00:27 PM by MatisseOrOtherwise »
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crymerci

  • Posts: 1565
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 03:15:43 PM »
I'm completely ok with making silk lengths more expensive and/or limited for non-Kadius crafters.

BUT

This sounds like something Kadius could pursue IG. Why not try to muscle out that silk seller and make a plot of it?

IIRC, this happened once, over a decade ago, and is why the silk seller has a bodyguard in her shop, unlike most shopkeepers. Not sure if it was Kadius that was doing the muscling, or another group.
I think we might need to change World Discussion to Armchair Zalanthan Anthropology.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9595
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 05:01:54 PM »
I disagree with making silk more expensive for indie crafters - it's already expensive as hell, and literally every unclanned recipe for it will never make profit, only return even or loss.

Somebody doesn't know how to use haggle properly.  Laborer is the only guild/sub/extended sub that gets clothworking that doesn't also have haggle.

I don't see what the big deal is, though.  Subguild and primary class clothworkers are very fucking far from ruining the game.
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Vex

  • Posts: 89
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 06:00:31 PM »
The merchant houses have a thing about not selling raw goods themselves, actually.
Ummm no.  They deal in raw goods in certain locations.

The pcs don't deal raw goods, TO other pcs.

There are gmh npcs, that buy/sell, but having tried to buy gold silk lengths at one point, I was informed by kadius, they do NOT sell raw textiles, as a rule, told them them by their superiors (npcs/docs, I presume).

Just the opposite, though, I think this should be how most people get their silk lengths, with a much more (dangerous) method, of harvesting raw silk, that can be crafted into silk lengths, and then dyed to the needed color, available for everyone... because its dangerous. Like, going into spider nests dangerous. Hi byn.

I don't see what the big deal is, though.  Subguild and primary class clothworkers are very fucking far from ruining the game.

As someone, who used to regularly clean out dozens of silk dresses, left in apartments, by people who would max out npc vendors every reset, I have to disagree. It was, imo, kind of insane, just how much money could be made, in relative safety, without really upsetting anyone in the process.

Like, I sold a large bag, full of nothing but silk dresses (copies, in different colors, all stacks divisible by, yup, 5) for almost 10k, when all was said and done.

Lots of people from allanak, go to storm for a few rl days, to whore out the sandlord in the extreme, then go back to allanak, with thousands and thousands in their pockets. Tailoring is, imo, insane, considering you never have to leave town, and is basically unlimited, free money, and you never really upset anyone, by doing it.

I even see people sit in front of the vendors, spamming out dresses, or cloaks, or whatever... which, I don't know, its like finding people cooking all their meat, in the desert, with no rp and no cooking tools or fires, just to lighten their load, by burning half of it.

Its really offputting, and I usually end up just immediately leaving, because its... how do you rp around it? Very awkward... its fine in your apartment, but in public, it's weird, and in my experiences, its almost always tailors doing it.

And woodworkers. Why, woodworkers, WHY?
"Mortals do drown so."

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9595
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 06:10:21 PM »
*shrug*

There has to be some value in not choosing slipknife or outdoorsman as your sub, otherwise everyone would be a subguild slipknife or outdoorsman.
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JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 87
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2018, 09:17:50 PM »
I can sort of understand the gripe about NPC merchants not having enough coin. I think that problem could be solved some other way.

I don't, however, understand what upsets people about folks making coin. I still remember Synthesis' post from another thread, "Why do you care about half-giants with coins?" Why do you care about anyone with a lot of coins, for that matter. I do think that those in power can and DO monitor bank accounts, from witnessing IG some stuff, and if you are getting too rich, someone is going to notice, and be pleased to find a way to relieve you of some of your wealth.

So go choose that master tailor/jeweler subguild, and make coins enough to buy a warehouse of your own.
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Heade

  • Posts: 504
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2018, 09:44:28 PM »
As someone, who used to regularly clean out dozens of silk dresses, left in apartments, by people who would max out npc vendors every reset, I have to disagree.

That's a fairly big assumption, that they "max out NPC vendors every reset", and that is why you found silk dresses in their apartment. As a merchant-type independent PC, I often tried to keep an "inventory" of things like dresses to show to other PCs in an effort to make PC to PC sales. To be honest, it's pretty difficult to sell more than one dress or expensive piece of jewelry to NPC merchants very often in Nak. I find that they're usually out of coin.

So anyhow, there is a very good possibility you weren't "cleaning out" what they couldn't sell to NPC vendors, and instead swiped their stock that was meant to facilitate player to player RP and sales opportunities. As an indie merchant, it's a fact that you end up having to leave some very valuable things in your apartment unless you twink to the extreme and only buy things you can immediately use and sell to NPCs, so that you can log out with all your expensive belongings to avoid the 5-6am burglar BS.

You just described a built-in money sink for indie merchants. They get robbed blind for 10k worth of goods, that they probably spent at least half of that making. As an indie merchant in Nak, you can pretty much look forward to your apartment being broken into every RL day, sometimes multiple times a day.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:46:20 PM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Vex

  • Posts: 89
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2018, 02:17:00 AM »
*shrug*

There has to be some value in not choosing slipknife or outdoorsman as your sub, otherwise everyone would be a subguild slipknife or outdoorsman.

I sold a bag, of linen clothing, for about 2.5k, so... you could eliminate silk, as a common vendor textile, and it would NOT hurt tailors bottom line. It is still unlimited raw resources, without any risk, interaction with pcs, or other troublesome delays.

Even that, is a ton of money, that after a week or two, would end up sitting idle, for lack of things to do with it.

I don't, however, understand what upsets people about folks making coin.

Inflation.

It is already, RIDICULOUSLY HARD, to bribe a Templar, noble, or even soldier, without a CRAZY amount of coins. Even, petty theft, requires thousands and thousands, because, as players, we all know that 500 coin, can be made in minutes, by anyone with the coin to buy a mining pick.

Reducing the volume of idle coin, especially, in city based characters, who set the bar for this kind of dynamic, would have a net positive outcome, on the coin vs social economic issues. That is, that no amount of coin, will ever tempt someone, to betray. It has to be a social/political offering, or people, simply don't care.

For money to have real value, it has to not be so easily available.

That's a fairly big assumption, that they "max out NPC vendors every reset", and that is why you found silk dresses in their apartment.

Not an assumption.
"Mortals do drown so."

Heade

  • Posts: 504
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2018, 05:10:19 AM »
Not an assumption.

Unless you shadow every single resident of every apartment you ever break into around the city for days at every reset, or are working off of knowledge gleaned by them telling you IC or OOC, it is.

And I'm not saying you don't do this, but making the claim that you've done this every single time you've cleaned out someone's apartment of valuables like dresses is a bit hard to believe, considering all the random breakins that seem to occur. I've played stealth characters a lot. The more shadowing and "casing" of PCs you do, the higher the likelihood of being noticed.

I, personally, on merchant characters have had bags of dresses stolen from my apartment that I used as a showcase to try to facilitate PC to PC sales, and I can assure you that it was a SIGNIFICANT loss of money, not because I maxxed out merchant coin every reset, but because with middling to decent agility, you tear up a lot of silk even having high levels of skill. Pair that with theft/robbery, and it can be pretty tough, even for a "master" indie tailor to stay profitable at all. But they -should- be profitable! A merchantile character's entire premise is to be a money-maker. They're an economic character. We shouldn't gripe about them being able to do that.

If you want to tackle why it's so difficult for commoners to bribe templars, take a look at the nobles who are able to provide "gifts" and "bribes" to the tune of 50,000 sid. Merchants aren't really able to compete, bribery-wise, with the amount of sids being thrown around by nobles sometimes. And no, rinthi scum X probably DOES have a hard time coming up with the coin to outbribe Merchants and Nobles. In that case, I'd say the system is working as intended. Here is a simple graph of who has the easiest time bribing templars:

Nobles>GMH Merchants/Crew Leaders>Unaffiliated Merchants>Everyone Else

If you're playing a character in the "everyone else" Category, you should expect to have a hard time effectively bribing people.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 9820
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2018, 05:12:58 AM »
Nobles should be stupid rich though

Heade

  • Posts: 504
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2018, 05:17:25 AM »
Nobles should be stupid rich though

And they are. As I said, working as intended.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Erythil

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2018, 03:06:51 PM »
Having to get raw silk from spiders or spider dens would make all those tedious spider missions feel more relevant.

Vex

  • Posts: 89
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2018, 12:26:14 AM »
Unless you shadow every single resident of every apartment you ever break into around the city for days at every reset, or are working off of knowledge gleaned by them telling you IC or OOC, it is.

Typically, it's more, I hang around, waiting for rich looking people to walk past, find out where they live, then pillage their loots. Quite often, and in the example I used earlier, I find them unloading incredible volumes, of silks and linen, or staggering amounts of jewelry, at Kadius.

Giving away, winning tips here, but in all seriousness, I don't need to make assumptions. Its easy to find, track, and exploit people, because they ALL follow the same, predictable routines, and there is only really a few places, where rich people can continue to get richer, without taking any risks.

You don't seem to grasp, the simplicity of it all. That row of Kadian buildings, is like the silk road of Zalanthas, and its easy, so very easy, to see who is selling a few things, here and there, and who is unloading an optimized large bag, for maximum reap, per reboot.

I've played stealth characters a lot. The more shadowing and "casing" of PCs you do, the higher the likelihood of being noticed.

Not really...

I, personally, on merchant characters have had bags of dresses stolen from my apartment that I used as a showcase to try to facilitate PC to PC sales, and I can assure you that it was a SIGNIFICANT loss of money, not because I maxxed out merchant coin every reset, but because with middling to decent agility, you tear up a lot of silk even having high levels of skill. Pair that with theft/robbery, and it can be pretty tough, even for a "master" indie tailor to stay profitable at all.

Prioritize agi, don't leave 10k worth of loot, just sitting around. Problem=solved.

But they -should- be profitable! A merchantile character's entire premise is to be a money-maker. They're an economic character. We shouldn't gripe about them being able to do that.

Profit, is fine. 10k per reboot, with no risk, no inter-pc involvement, and not upsetting anyone, is a ridiculous. 2.5k, is totally reasonable, when you never need to involve another pc, and never take a risk, and never have to leave town, to do it. That is still a lot of money...

If you want to tackle why it's so difficult for commoners to bribe templars, take a look at the nobles who are able to provide "gifts" and "bribes" to the tune of 50,000 sid.

Totally different spectrum, of interaction, but... nobles wouldn't need to bribe, 50k, if 10k, wasn't considered a common pittance, that any half-geared indie hunter can throw around, like it's  complete joke.

Tbh, I think you have a poor grasp of things, outside of your particular sphere of preference. You sound angry, aggressive, and like someone I called out, but I can't even remember, how to type your name... so... maybe calm down, and keep it rational?
"Mortals do drown so."

Heade

  • Posts: 504
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2018, 01:53:12 AM »
Prioritize agi, don't leave 10k worth of loot, just sitting around. Problem=solved.

So, you're suggesting people twink out their PCs and don't play realisitically? I don't see how that's a valid suggestion. You're suggesting that people do exactly what you're hating on them for doing...sell all their valuable stuff to NPC merchants immediately for maximum coinage so they don't have to leave anything valuable behind when they log out.

Profit, is fine. 10k per reboot, with no risk, no inter-pc involvement, and not upsetting anyone, is a ridiculous. 2.5k, is totally reasonable, when you never need to involve another pc, and never take a risk, and never have to leave town, to do it. That is still a lot of money...

It's not 10k profit per reboot. Even if you managed to sell that stuff without haggle for 5k, not every tailor has the haggle skill to double that. And even if you sold the items for 10k without haggle, you should remember that 40-60% of that is just recouping their initial investment in making the stuff to begin with. Silk isn't cheap to buy, and even with good agility, you still ruin silk. So at the end of the day, 10k worth of sold goods only made them about 4k, probably. And it was a serious time investment. Far more than the time it took you to loot the bag from their apartment.

nobles wouldn't need to bribe, 50k, if 10k, wasn't considered a common pittance, that any half-geared indie hunter can throw around, like it's  complete joke.

But it is, and they do. And that's the economy right now, and it works just fine. "Nobel > GMH > Indie Merchant > Everyone Else", is a perfectly fine tier system for wealth, and that's currently what it is. We don't need to deflate the economy to work better for the bottom tier.

You sound angry, aggressive, and like someone I called out, but I can't even remember, how to type your name... so... maybe calm down, and keep it rational?

That's funny. I don't know how you're figuring I sound angry and aggressive in text. I'm exceptionally calm and collected. Why wouldn't I be? I'm not upset with the system, and think it's perfectly fine the way it is. I don't need to argue my point for my preferred solution to be implemented. It's already the status quo.

Maybe you should take your own advice. ;)
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Vex

  • Posts: 89
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2018, 02:12:33 AM »
So, you're suggesting people twink out their PCs and don't play realisitically? I don't see how that's a valid suggestion. You're suggesting that people do exactly what you're hating on them for doing...sell all their valuable stuff to NPC merchants immediately for maximum coinage so they don't have to leave anything valuable behind when they log out.

If you feel, agility is such a large factor in your success, than yes, you should prioritize it.

Keep your wealth, on your person, and you won't have to worry so much, about it being stolen. If you've so much wealth, be it in coin, or fabricated goods, that carrying it with you isn't viable, you probably have too much.

You seemed rather upset, and that is the best solution, to that particular problem.

It's not 10k profit per reboot. Even if you managed to sell that stuff without haggle for 5k, not every tailor has the haggle skill to double that. And even if you sold the items for 10k without haggle, you should remember that 40-60% of that is just recouping their initial investment in making the stuff to begin with. Silk isn't cheap to buy, and even with good agility, you still ruin silk. So at the end of the day, 10k worth of sold goods only made them about 4k, probably. And it was a serious time investment. Far more than the time it took you to loot the bag from their apartment.

Even 5k, if we use your numbers, is a lot of money, for a zero risk endeavor, you can so alone in your apartment.

Too much.

But it is, and they do.

So, lets fix it, until it's perfect, and works for everyone.

That's funny. I don't know how you're figuring I sound angry and aggressive in text. I'm exceptionally calm and collected.

Maybe you should take your own advice. ;)

You still sound, really upset...
"Mortals do drown so."

Heade

  • Posts: 504
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2018, 02:17:30 AM »
Look, Vex, I'm not going to reply line by line, it isn't worth it at this point. The system already works. There's nothing to fix.

I agree to disagree, so no need to try to convince me further. Your arguments aren't cutting it.

And you sound upset.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Vex

  • Posts: 89
Re: Remove infinity silk merchants
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2018, 03:34:56 AM »
I make it look easy, because it's easy.
"Mortals do drown so."