Author Topic: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game  (Read 1530 times)

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 861
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2018, 03:11:47 PM »
Add 1 more karma level (4 total) and start everyone with 1 karma. You still have to spend it to buy extended subs, but everyone gets access.

This assumes people are entitled to karma for some reason. Karma is (among other things) a reward for proving that you are responsible enough to play a sensitive role. Armageddon is great today because of the foundation laid in the past - high standards. The constant cries of "it isn't fair!" or "we all deserve X" is absolutely ridiculous.

Some guilds are not balanced. So what? If a newbie gicker can toast your 30 day warrior...good. Maybe that is part of the reason karma exists - to regulate the more powerful guilds. Maybe that gives a good incentive to actually RP fear of gickers; you know, like the docs say.
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

"Don't do this. I can't believe I have to write this post."
-Rathustra

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 441
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2018, 03:32:00 PM »
TLH -- I don't know if you caught this, but under the system I proposed, new players would be no closer to playing any kind of gicker (touched or aspect) than they ever were, since all touched would be bumped up to 2 karma and aspects to 3+. So this would literally only affect who gets to play mundane extended subguilds*, which, unlike gickers or other races, are no more challenging or demanding to RP than regular subguilds. And while there are some powerful and abusable combos, it's veteran players that I worry you have to watch with them, not utter newbies who have never branched anything in their lives.

Look. I like you. I mean, I really do. I respect you so much as a player. But from reading your posts on the GDB, sometimes I think you get overly fixated on the idea that everyone around you is an entitled snowflake. And you're not entirely wrong; I agree with you sometimes that some people get a bit demanding. But not EVERY disagreement can be boiled down to everyone else being a lazy millennial who just has to have that participation trophy. Extended subguilds used to be something everyone had equal (but limited) access to, before they were tied to the karma system. I'm just suggesting a way to get back to something closer to that original vision, not giving newbies a fast track to playing sorcs and psis because I live in a happy pixie dust lala-equality-land where having to earn things is unfair. Magickers, HGs, muls, etc. are a whole different animal and I'm glad they're highly gated.

EDIT: *I suppose it might also affect who gets to play desert-elves, but we can bump those up to 2 karma too.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 03:35:11 PM by sleepyhead »

Harmless

  • Posts: 2673
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2018, 04:11:50 PM »
To me, a class that provides "minor" buffs like that you describe is exactly "splashing everything with glitter." Mages shouldn't dominate plots, but they shouldn't infuse everything either. Magick should be rare, dangerous, and weird, and such a class wouldn't accomplish any of that. It's as much a trivialization of magick as a group of X-Men Gemmed solving all problems are.

To answer the Original Post, the players of magickers get flak because so many of them are (or were) rather blatantly after the coded power that the (sub)Guilds provided. Magick is just codified twinkage. Maybe if it had more coded drawbacks it wouldn't get the same amount of hate, similar to how people rarely disparage mul players compared to dwarf players. Muls have good documentation and strong code limitations, while dwarves only have documentation and no coded disadvantages to enforce it.

I would emphasize a strong WERE for the "blatant coded power" of the mainguilds. But, I would also note (and agree with) an important fact that if you wanted to get anything done as a magicker before, you were forced to use a lot of magick to do it, because magick totally replaced all normal class abilities: combat, defense, crafting, detection, mobility, stealth, etc. Countering your post, there WERE multiple coded disadvantages for mainguilded magickers, namely their utter lack of main-class level abilities that provide basic survival skills and crafting skills. There were and still are the non-coded penalties socially that I think aren't up for debate here.

However, I get you that the "sprinkle pixie dust on everything" is not desirable for Armageddon. I agree completely, it doesn't fit a low-fantasy setting.

I tried to play magickers differently than that. Sure, I would practice a lot with the mainguild magickers in a temple to branch spells, because I wanted to have options; I tried to do it with roleplay, even solo RP, but as much as I could I would involve other magickers in my practice. If I was a rogue mage it would be more interesting then because there was so much more practicing to do (out of necessity) and therefore harder to hide.

If I were going to use mainguild magick I -tried- to avoid using them in too-visible a way. It was challenging at times; the way magick worked would mandate a whole room shaking or something equally ridiculous when you saw the emote. (I still have a problem with the fact that all casting involves chanting, a room-spook emote like a ball of flames or mist flying everywhere). However, things like a few hidden buffs were pretty fun, because people would wonder exactly what the magick was doing for your PC. As such, I tried to avoid say the "stoneskin" spell, or big magickal weapons sticking out of my PC's ass.

As a result, my magickers would often be a little less "accomplished" if coded accomplishment is the point of everything, but they were respected, because I was trying to fit the "low fantasy" theme despite having a broad variety of spells.  It also meant that, for example, a drov beetle would randomly 1-hit me BECAUSE i didn't have buffs on at all times that made my character survivable.
(This is in fact how my 30 day+ or whatever it was magicker ended up dying, after having been around for several Arm of the Dragon RPTs and being involved in the stories of other gemmed, some mundanes, some Templars, and some criminal scum).

Conclusion: I do appreciate strongly that the subguilds give magickers some self-reliance without needing to constantly spam magick all day. It better achieves a subtlety of a low-fantasy setting because "getting things done" (i.e., being involved in some plots, staying alive, making contacts) doesn't require twinkly-sparks all day and all night.

I would also add that "choosing magickers for coded advantages" is not true any longer because of some factors that you would understand if you played several of them currently. Overall, I think the GDB hatred of magickers, particularly the subguilds, needs to just vanish as a result of these two things, because it directly deals with the criticisms that respected players such as BadSkeelz listed above. In fact, I would argue these changes went into effect almost fully because of the community's discussions about magickers and these downsides to the old mainguilds that I agree did exist for some players of them.

But, I would also maintain my own counterpoint that at least the way I was playing mainguilds, I tried (and I hope, accomplished) being subtle, I didn't use magick constantly, I kept people guessing; it was possible, but it did require taking a lot of risk (such as by knowing you were unprepared for danger unless covered in magick buffs), it required more patience to await that cool opportunity to have magick play an intriguing role in a storyline, and it required heavy reliance on a subguild that would get you the ability to play a believable Zalanthan instead of just a magickal battery.

I also maintain that there could have been other ways to accomplish subtlety and removing the total reliance on highly-visible magick without just completely removing all the mainguilds, such as changing the magickal emotes, the magickal spell functions, etc.

Note for below: Don't overthink me hailing Badskeelz, just using him as an example of many vocal, active players, players who do often play or have played high ranking leadership roles and who I respect for their understanding of the setting. In fact, I greatly enjoyed playing a particular long lived magicker and interacting with him when he played a particular Lieutenant in The Arm. I would like to think he might not have made his strong opinions if he had more chances to interact with magickers using that shit more like I did and less like the stuff he unfortunately had repeated exposures to.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 08:13:16 PM by Harmless »
Useful tips: Commands |  |Storytelling:  1  2

Eyeball

  • Posts: 798
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2018, 04:22:46 PM »
because it directly deals with the criticisms that respected players such as BadSkeelz listed above

BadSkeelz is respected? When did that happen?  ;D

Listen, if your measure is satisfying BadSkeelz' criticisms (past and present), nothing short of removing elementalist magick altogether will suffice.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8351
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2018, 05:08:59 PM »
I'd be perfectly fine if full guild elementalists were restricted to tribals. I've never denied magick doesn't have a place in Arm. I just don't care much for how it's implemented.

It's a topic for another thread, anyhow.
janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Miradus: He's not some weird mental abomination. He's just a guy on the internet.

Feco

  • Posts: 1835
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2018, 05:47:57 PM »
I unabashedly love magick and invite attempts at shaming!
Quote
Sunshine all the time makes a desert.
Vote at TMS
Vote at TMC

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6647
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2018, 05:56:42 PM »
I unabashedly love magick and invite attempts at shaming!

You dirty magick lover you

infinitehope

  • Posts: 27
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2018, 07:34:01 PM »
I think it's interesting food for thought number13.  You got me thinking more about subtle effects -- and actually about unintentional subtle effects.

What if Suk-krath characters caused the zone they were in to heat up a little, especially during the day?  What if Whiran characters caused the winds to pick up, and Ruk characters caused dust storms and - very rarely - occasional tremors?  What if Vivaduans caused plants in the area to replenish more quickly?  Stuff that already happens by itself, but seeing it would make you suspicious.

We used to have "cantrips" that could kind of accomplish this, but they were still "casting" so nobody did them in public.

I don't know if adding a script to magickers to "occasionally" send out room echoes or hemotes related to their element, but maybe some sort of a push in the documentation for it TO happen. Like an aliased emote that occasionally some Viv's skin moistens and dries out quickly.
I always Hemoted these sorts of things anyway as a magicker. Nothing is certain with magick. I know a popular one is to play upon emotions causing 'magical outbursts' .  Should be done a lot more often, imo, but its often seen as risky because people will often immediately dial the 'reaction' gauge up to 11.

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1093
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2018, 09:10:51 PM »
I think it's interesting food for thought number13.  You got me thinking more about subtle effects -- and actually about unintentional subtle effects.

What if Suk-krath characters caused the zone they were in to heat up a little, especially during the day?  What if Whiran characters caused the winds to pick up, and Ruk characters caused dust storms and - very rarely - occasional tremors?  What if Vivaduans caused plants in the area to replenish more quickly?  Stuff that already happens by itself, but seeing it would make you suspicious.

We used to have "cantrips" that could kind of accomplish this, but they were still "casting" so nobody did them in public.

I don't know if adding a script to magickers to "occasionally" send out room echoes or hemotes related to their element, but maybe some sort of a push in the documentation for it TO happen. Like an aliased emote that occasionally some Viv's skin moistens and dries out quickly.
I always Hemoted these sorts of things anyway as a magicker. Nothing is certain with magick. I know a popular one is to play upon emotions causing 'magical outbursts' .  Should be done a lot more often, imo, but its often seen as risky because people will often immediately dial the 'reaction' gauge up to 11.

Interesting!  I'm only vaguely aware of the cantrips spells Riev mentions.

I was thinking more along the lines of magickers affecting the coded weather -- no hemotes or anything like that, just unusual heat when you type weather and you happen to be in the vicinity of a Suk-krath or two.  For plants replenishing, I was thinking the plant objects that are literally already in the game and spawn fruit, leaves, and branches that you can pick.  Or, I don't know, making it so Vivaduans are only able to add the smallest scars to themselves from the scar shoppe.

So, subtly altering the behavior of mechanisms that are already in the game in a way that reinforces suspicion and superstition and even witch hunts.
The neat, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
     "I tried hairy...Im sorry"

stoicreader

  • Posts: 109
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2018, 11:44:44 PM »
Muls have good documentation and strong code limitations, while dwarves only have documentation and no coded disadvantages to enforce it.

I made a dwarf guide. Dwarves rock. Don't hate.
Meh

seidhr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 501
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2018, 01:30:41 AM »
Drive-by commentary:

1) Touched subguilds do get spells.  They receive a mixture of mundane skills and spells.  Non-touched magicker subguilds only get spells (with the necessary accompanying non-spell skills to be able to do spell stuff).  They can still be pretty powerful.

2) Having a different shaped gem with less severe penalties for touched subguilds is never going to happen.  From a layman's perspective, magick is magick and it's scary whether you can only cast one spell or seventy-six. The concept of guilds/subguilds is also a purely OOC mechanic. ICly, there's no such thing.

3) Magicker subguilds can still be insanely powerful - capable of killing 50 or 100 day warriors from a much younger age.

4) The cantrip spells do exist, but I don't believe the subguilds get them(?) - I'd have to look.  For the most part they don't actually do anything but echo to the room (at a cost of mana), and could be emoted.

5) Once the main guild revamp is done we have plans to look at (mundane and magick) subguilds too.

Harmless

  • Posts: 2673
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2018, 05:13:05 AM »
Seidhr, I appreciate your comments, but the assertion that magicker subguilds can be powerful needs a counterpoint.

The original magicker guilds had a spell repertoire that allowed for deadliness because the complete set allowed for brutally "unfair" application of a few spells of noteworthy power. I won't spoil anything but let's say a stealth spell allowed for the carefully timed application of a trapping spell that immobilized a target long enough for a damaging spell to kill a victim.

Now, for obvious reasons, one will only ever be able to apply a damaging spell as a certain subguild, but may never get a certain spell in the stealth or disabling categories so that they can only exert the damage spell directly (and face the consequences with no magickal protection) or with the aid of mundane skills (which have all the usual mundane limitations). Since mundane skills take 20+ days to become useful or even to branch in many cases this limits that "one week mage killing a 50-day warrior" scenario.

I am arguing this is a good thing, by the way, at least for the sake of dispelling myths that players have over magick. I agree with Badskeelz and a few others here who felt it could be rather bullshit to lose such a hard earned character because a magicker employed (what became a predictable) set of combined abilities to lock them down/sneak up on them/catch up to them then blast them. Personally though, I never played this game to "win" so didn't mind that these things happened. I never aggressively PKed as a magicker and was made the victim of magick and miss the mainguild magick users because of these exact reasons...but the playerbase whined loudly about it for years and staff reacted. *shrug*

But sorry, after having done several magicker types, I disagree with a strong assertion like your point 3. I feel entitled to disagree after having invested that 15-20 day span of work (though definitely NOT spending all of it mindlessly grinding away to branch if for example a full repertoire were to become available over time to a subguild). The spells appear mostly unchanged so yes, certain spells are still "OP". Those are also largely 3-karma now.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 05:21:49 AM by Harmless »
Useful tips: Commands |  |Storytelling:  1  2

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 9387
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2018, 06:31:13 AM »
Reintroduce full magick guilds as additions to main guilds.

Full skill list of mundane, full spell list. Control with an iron fist pupulation quota or just use the current system, I don't care. MAKE MAGICK GREAT AGAIN
Where have you buried the body, MeTekillot?

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1565
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2018, 06:46:45 AM »
Seidhr, I appreciate your comments, but the assertion that magicker subguilds can be powerful needs a counterpoint.

The original magicker guilds had a spell repertoire that allowed for deadliness because the complete set allowed for brutally "unfair" application of a few spells of noteworthy power. I won't spoil anything but let's say a stealth spell allowed for the carefully timed application of a trapping spell that immobilized a target long enough for a damaging spell to kill a victim.

Now, for obvious reasons, one will only ever be able to apply a damaging spell as a certain subguild, but may never get a certain spell in the stealth or disabling categories so that they can only exert the damage spell directly (and face the consequences with no magickal protection) or with the aid of mundane skills (which have all the usual mundane limitations). Since mundane skills take 20+ days to become useful or even to branch in many cases this limits that "one week mage killing a 50-day warrior" scenario.

I am arguing this is a good thing, by the way, at least for the sake of dispelling myths that players have over magick. I agree with Badskeelz and a few others here who felt it could be rather bullshit to lose such a hard earned character because a magicker employed (what became a predictable) set of combined abilities to lock them down/sneak up on them/catch up to them then blast them. Personally though, I never played this game to "win" so didn't mind that these things happened. I never aggressively PKed as a magicker and was made the victim of magick and miss the mainguild magick users because of these exact reasons...but the playerbase whined loudly about it for years and staff reacted. *shrug*

But sorry, after having done several magicker types, I disagree with a strong assertion like your point 3. I feel entitled to disagree after having invested that 15-20 day span of work (though definitely NOT spending all of it mindlessly grinding away to branch if for example a full repertoire were to become available over time to a subguild). The spells appear mostly unchanged so yes, certain spells are still "OP". Those are also largely 3-karma now.

I would assume a 20 days played warrior with fireball would be terrifying. Open with a blast and just sword the last few hp away. Or an assassin who can make themself stupidly strong with magick could do the exact same thing just with backstab instead.

Its a simple matter of combining the two now instead of only uber-mega-fireball-of-dooming a guy or lightning bolting them to the face.

Harmless

  • Posts: 2673
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2018, 07:17:55 AM »
An IC fear that is indeed terrifying. However I have yet to hear or see or accomplish that in game. If you ever have a character who actually died to someone using that kind of strategy, then let us know well over a year after it happened. For now, it's something you're assuming.

There are reasons why this kind of thing is unlikely to happen, and I am not here to argue the code or the IC/RP challenges (the rightful ones, by the way, I am not against the fact that this kind of thing isn't happening). Just...like I said, when your assumptions become reality, let us know.

I'll be waiting to hear about it.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 07:26:18 AM by Harmless »
Useful tips: Commands |  |Storytelling:  1  2

Riev

  • Posts: 5129
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2018, 11:05:06 AM »
Drive-by commentary:

4) The cantrip spells do exist, but I don't believe the subguilds get them(?) - I'd have to look.  For the most part they don't actually do anything but echo to the room (at a cost of mana), and could be emoted.


Drive-by retort:

is there any way that we can get a list of the Cantrips that DO exist, and their effects? Reasoning being:

They are still a spell, which means you can't/shouldn't really "cast" in public or at the Gaj. (I don't know about legal issues, but you shouldn't be uttering incantations in public).

If they are no longer attached to the subguilds, why even have them in game when they could serve another purpose?

If you gave it out in the Acceptance Email that "Here are 'some examples' of the room echoes that might go on around you" and just paste the cantrip effects, it would give us (me) much more room to play with for what is "acceptable".

For the record, the mon-level cantrips often had some sort of physical effect. I had one character who actually effected the room's light, once.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 370
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2018, 11:20:11 AM »
Quote
Cantrip
(Magick)
A cantrip is a minor magickal effect produced consciously or otherwise by an elementalist. They are expressions of the elementalistís element and deal exclusively in that element.

Some cantrips are overt - a Vivaduan exhaling mist, for example. Others are more subtle - such as a Rukkian always being dusty. Others are even subtler still - being barely, if at all, perceived by even the elementalist themselves: a Whiran's uncanny ability to read the wind or a Krathi's aptitude for managing a cook fire.

An inexperienced or manifesting elementalist often (but not always) cannot control their production of cantrips. With greater understanding and practice these spontaneous cantrips can be brought to heel. Some elementalists also struggle to control their powers when experiencing high emotion or stress - and this too can be controlled through a greater understanding of their elemental bond.

A minority of elementalists experience their bonds more wholly through cantrips - they find themselves possessing a greater attunement to the expressions of their element in the world around them. These 'touched' elementalists often find they have greater capacity in skills that their cantrips give them an edge in.

Cantrips are not a replacement for actual spells. If using a cantrip to replicate an actual spell, the spell itself should be used.

A cantrip can be one of several spells.  It can be what is happening around you when you are casting spells.  It can be an h/emote.  They can be voluntary or involuntary.  It can be emoting that you are able to climb well because the rock is helping you to climb.  In other words, it is fairly open ended, with certain illusionary spells being a small part (or not, depending on how you look at cantrips) of what is possible.

seidhr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 501
Re: Gicker Shame is Lame if it Doesn't Stay In-Game
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2018, 01:23:43 PM »
Drive-by retort:
....
They are still a spell, which means you can't/shouldn't really "cast" in public or at the Gaj. (I don't know about legal issues, but you shouldn't be uttering incantations in public).
....
For the record, the mon-level cantrips often had some sort of physical effect. I had one character who actually effected the room's light, once.

If you're using cantrips in the Gaj about your skin getting unnaturally moist or the fire in a lantern bending to your will, I would hope some AoD soldier would arrest you, whether you are "cast"ing the spell or emoting the effect.

Yes, some of the cantrips could sometimes produce a coded effect.  That is why I said "for the most part" at the start of that sentence.