Author Topic: May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting  (Read 775 times)

Nergal

  • Producer
  • Posts: 757
May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting
« on: May 06, 2017, 09:16:54 PM »
This is the question and answer portion of the player/staff meeting.
The general discussion is here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52472.msg986849.html#msg986849
Tell us what you thought of the meeting here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52473.0.html

Nergal - Today at 4:11 PM
Welcome to the May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting. If you have a question, type "I have a question" in the #queue channel and you'll be called on when you're up to ask a question. The queue opens up at 5:30PM and will close around 7PM or when all questions are answered. (All times are server time)

If you queue up with a question, try to type your question ahead of time so that you can copy-paste it into #meeting when you're called on.

Also, please only queue up for one question at a time. You can queue up again for a follow-up question after receiving the answer to your first question.

After the queue is closed, there'll be a freeform discussion in this channel. Everyone's encouraged to participate in both parts of the meeting. Everything will be logged and posted to the GDB for posterity.
The topic of the meeting is "current and future plans, projects, and plots". Questions should be on-topic. The general discussion afterward can be about anything.

Nergal - Today at 5:33 PM
We'll give people a few minutes to queue up and then get started. Please consider the topic and be courteous - don't spam up the chat, use it to ask questions and receive answers. Thanks.
Alright, let's get started. Mazy has the first question. Go ahead Mazy

Mazy - Today at 5:41 PM
Thank you for hosting this player staff event.
Like I voiced on the forums, I feel passionate about opening up the full guilds for elementalists through special applications. Even having a limited release of only Nilazi, this would generate a lot of excitement while the other subguilds are being looked into. Nilazi created a lot of plots, and seemed to murder less than Whirans.
Ultimately, yíall have the power to make the game however you want. Itís in your hands, and itís a fantastic and wonderful thing. But part of this world is ours, too. Based on everything that Iíve heard and the numbers in the polls, the majority would like to see some change.

My question is: Will you deeply discuss this on staff side, and consider allowing a limited number through special applications?

Nergal - Today at 5:43 PM
The message from posters is loud and clear. A few players are very passionate about bringing back elements of magick that used to exist in-game. And as I explained in the thread, there are a lot of thematic and power issues related to these classes that we feel would result in a net detriment to the game if we reintroduced them to the game in their current form.
That being said, magic is a regular topic staff-side. But we need to tackle a few things at a time, and right now, magic is "recently tackled". Other projects we're working on are more urgent.
Regarding player majorities: I think we need to find a better way to judge that. Forum polls are susepctible to forum alts voting to heavily favor one side or the other, as we saw with the latest poll on elementalists that several posters were using their clan forum alts to try to swing things their way. Both sides of the argument were guilty of this.
So if we want to make a decision democratically, we have to find a better system for doing that so that we count game accounts, not forum accounts.
@Ooze You're up next.

Ooze - Today at 5:47 PM
Yes, thank you. Will Bash Door ever become a thing in the future?

Nathvaan - Today at 5:49 PM
While there are not active projects to put this into the game at the moment, I don't think there would be any reason to not look into coding this as long as it was limited in a realistic and reasonable way.  In short, sure I can't see why not!
As with all new features there is a long process to making sure that it doesn't impact game balance in a way we aren't intending.

Nergal - Today at 5:52 PM
@John You're up next

John - Today at 5:52 PM
Karma reviews have been put on hold in February to look at an overhaul to the karma system. How is that going and what are the current thoughts on karma?

Nergal - Today at 5:55 PM
Well, I'll start with explaining why karma's being reformed in the first place. Right now it's a very bottom-heavy system, in terms of where players are at. If you think of the karma scale like a pyramid, very few have 8 and most people are at 4 or 5 or below.
At the same time, those who have 8 karma tend to roll their 8 karma options a lot, throwing off the balance with respect to how many of those roles should exist over a given period of time.
So we're working on a scale that is both smaller, and addresses the issue of how rare certain roles should be.
The belief being that a smaller karma ladder is easier for newer players to climb, and fairer.

John - Today at 5:57 PM
Thanks :smiley:

Nergal - Today at 5:57 PM
@Bushranger you're up

Bushranger - Today at 5:58 PM
I know that most plots in the game are players but I do enjoy staff plots that are large in scope as well! How many plots do you estimate are run a year? Player and staff.

Rathustra - Today at 6:02 PM
Well 'large in scope' is pretty nebulous - let's say on the scale of the githplot that was run last year. I'd say that, along with a large plot in Allanak were the biggest two plots in 2016. There were a few others that were pretty big in scope with regards to building and staff involvement, but we're going for the heavy hitters here. I'd say it'd be nice if we had three a year like that. But I think often it comes down to perhaps two per year where we're actively looking for staff from multiple clan groups to join together to push things out.
At every other level, however, staff are constantly running things. If a staff member sees something that happens in game, it can start a discussion on our forums where we look to how we can have the virtual world react, how this can cause ripples.
So even something like Clan A having a scuffle with Clan B can, with staff involvement, produce some 'plots'. Often too clan groups will make things happen for their clannies, to help them explore their interests.
It does vary from group to group, staffer to staffer, but we actively encourage staff to look to players as instigators and to their actions as things to have the world react to.
NEXT QUESTION @Feco

Bushranger - Today at 6:04 PM
Thats awesome! Thank you!

Feco - Today at 6:04 PM
What's the best way for players to make suggestions for the direction of the game, or for vocalizing disagreement with the current direction?  I worry that many posts on the GDB, including my own, come off as complaining, and that's not helpful.
Thanks in advance!

Renenutet - Today at 6:07 PM
It's ok to disagree. We prefer that the disagreement stay in the realm of the productive. I think the most important thing to remember when you disagree and you don't get the reaction you're hoping for is that we are listening to you. We're weighing what you say. Sometimes we do not agree and we decide to stay the course. And sometimes, to belabor the ship metaphor, it's a big boat you have to be patient while we change course.
@Kismet you're up.

Kismet - Today at 6:10 PM
Hey.  I wasn't sure I was going to ask, at first, but Nergal kind of touched on it in his answer to Mazy, and Feco has also touched on it.  Nergal said the word democratically, and I've heard it said in the past that the game is, in fact, not a democracy.  I was wonder, how open are the staff to allowing the playerbase to influence the future of the game?  What gets worked on, what gets changed, what sort of things are allowed, and what are not?
As a second part to the question, I was wondering if the staff would be open to a monthly poll being installed into the account system, that would let player accounts, rather than forum accounts, vote on popular topics?

Nergal - Today at 6:14 PM
For the first part: Well, the game isn't a democracy, to be clear. Staff run the game, and decide who can play it. But we'd be silly not to listen to the players. We can and should let players have input on things where we feel player input would be helpful. We want to listen to players, but at the same time players have to accept that we will make the final decision. We'll try to make the most informed final decision possible, of course, but it's final all the same.

Adhira - Today at 6:16 PM
For the second part:  Looking for better methods to get feedback at the account level is a good idea, and something for us to aspire to.  The exact implementation of that, including what feedback, timeline for feedback and how we can execute it is something we'd have to look in to further.
But other ways to garner feedback than gdb polls, or request too that is more robust would be a great way for us to go.

Nergal - Today at 6:17 PM
@Bushranger You had another question. Go for it.

Bushranger - Today at 6:18 PM
If a player has a plot they'd like to pursue what is the best way to gauge staff interest or support? Certainly with a request but do you prefer to see some work done in game first or would you like an outline of what steps the player plans to take and what other clans they would like to try and colaborate with or oppose?

Renenutet - Today at 6:19 PM
Both please.
What I mean by that is, get stuff going in game, understanding until we've signed on, it's not a go.
But also understand that having a plan and doing stuff in game is key. Sometimes people write in and say, my idea is that my pc will do X awesome thing.
Now all you have to do is animate the world, do all the building, put it in game and give my pc the credit.
That's kind of not a plot, if you see what I mean :smiley:
So, yeah, it's a mixture of the two.
@Lairos all you.

Lairos - Today at 6:21 PM
There has been a lot of changes happening over the last few years, big changes and small changes. With the closure of Tuluk and other things there have also been a lot of additions such as a couple areas, new animals, adding of rooftops, gladiators  and a lot of different code to name a few. Is there currently any discussion on opening up some of the different Noble Houses and/or updating some of the other areas open such as the Silt Sea?

Adhira - Today at 6:24 PM
There are always discussions on changes to the game world, opening up areas and such.  We often have projects proposed that are waiting to be put into action. We also have projects that are underway right now that we hope at some point to launch into game to add to the game world.  I would say in general that we do not want the game to be static, that having different parts of the world open is a goal. Sometimes that comes with a trade off.  But in terms of staff plans I don't think stagnancy is something we aspire too.
To go with that Rath is going to elaborate on a current project he is heading up.

Rathustra - Today at 6:26 PM
Hi guys. The silt sea is an amazing place with a fantastic amount of opportunity - it's filled with a variety of flor and fauna that is both coded or hinted at and many years of developed player lore - all of which are rich seams for staff development.
I have a variety of outlines drawn up that will help bring the silt sea as it is codedly into line with the silt sea as it should be thematically - a dangerous, alien place whose malign touch is an anathema to natural life. A place where humans and demihumans - and other intellegent creatures, fight against the environment itself to survive.
A region of high adventure and opportunity for all PCs who dare to explore it.
The Silt Sea embodies the best parts of what I consider the essence of Armageddon and hopefully, through a series of projects, we can make this a place that matches its potential.
NEXT QUESTION, @Proliferance

Proliferance - Today at 6:29 PM
With respect to how hard many players have worked to earn that eight karma, in the scenario mentioned by Nergal above (John's question), where one is repeatedly rolling out mul #23454 or their 10th sorcerer, or 8th psionicist, and they've played nothing below that, why can staff not address this on a personal level, and simply tell the player to knock it off, for a bit? I feel like any time you try to blanket fix a problem, you're going to largely impact other players for an attempt to resolve something that sounds 'personal'. A reform of karma to address the highest echelons of karma (when 90% of players have not, and will never have that kind of option) seems extreme. If you limit it, for instance, to there only being a new psionicist once in a long while, and the same for a sorcerer, I feel that many players who are barely working their way into the bottom rung of that karma ladder are instead going to be bound even lower. A pyramid to karma makes sense. If you've got 8 karma, you're likely one of the best roleplayers in the game; it makes sense that like 5% of the playerbase would have that much. Elite of the elite, and all. It's more concerning to hear that these roles are going to be made even 'more' rare than they already are. Getting a small ladder at the store that you can climb in three steps is nice and all, but if it doesn't get me to the roof, why would I buy the ladder? --For the sake of showing a lack of bias, I'm going to mention here that I'm actually nowhere near these levels of karma, and have none of these options.

Nergal - Today at 6:32 PM
We're not really interested in maintaining an aristocracy of old players. As a result of the standards of karma grants changing over time, there are a lot of high-karma players that leave us wanting and a lot of low-karma players who are among the most engaging players in the game. Right now, karma is tied more directly to length of playtime rather than skill, as much as we have tried to tie it to skill.
Also to be clear, the scale is shrinking, not being chopped off at the top. It allows us to set better standards for moving up, keep deserving players moving up as much as possible, and set better standards for adjusting karma downward in a worst-case scenario.
@Yam you're up

Yam - Today at 6:36 PM
You claimed that people were using multiple accounts to vote on the GDB bring back full magickers poll. I don't doubt that GDB polls can be innaccurate and that we need a way to link accounts to impactful polls, but do you have actual evidence of "GDB voter fraud" or is this just a suspicion?

Nergal - Today at 6:36 PM
It was observed in the Who's Online section of the GDB as it was happening.

Adhira - Today at 6:37 PM
Also reported by CNN.

Nergal - Today at 6:37 PM
@travis You're up

travis - Today at 6:38 PM
Thanks folks! Before my question, just a quick suck up. I'm sure everyone appreciates how much time you guys all volunteer to a game
My question:
Would staff consider a time period after which plot details could be "declassified" and released to the public? For instance, say ten RL years after the demise of a character or the end of a plot.
Game logs, things like that.

Adhira - Today at 6:40 PM
I think that's a tricky area for us to navigate. But I would say in the general sense - Yes, a method for people to share plot details/storylines is good. It will help build enthusiasm, community and engender some positive engagement.
I think that sharing these via original submissions is likely the best method. I'm not sure that people would want others to tell their 'stories'. It could be that we find a way to add additional details garnered from staff or other perspectives to better flesh those out. Or we produce stories at the staff level with the player input.

travis - Today at 6:41 PM
Obviously a sensitive thing to do, given that there may still be plot elements active that individual players aren't aware of.

Adhira - Today at 6:41 PM
However, we always need to be aware that sometimes a plotline might reveal something that is sensitive. Not that we need to keep everything secret, but perhaps theres's a game mechanic, a place in the game etc that is better not revealed.
So short anser - yes, this is something we can do, and could relax a little, but it needs to be done in a careful manner so that everyone is happy with the end result.

travis - Today at 6:42 PM
Great answer. Thanks!

Adhira - Today at 6:42 PM
@Bushranger you're up (again!!)

Bushranger - Today at 6:42 PM
With class changes and new classes coming I'm super excited about future characters that I can play. In that same light are there any plans for races to be looked at or perhaps a couple new ones added? There were some cool races planned for Armageddon 2: Electric Boogaloo that I think would be awesome to introduce! Reptile/Crocodile people, Rideable people, Cat People!

Nergal - Today at 6:43 PM
There's no plans for new races or changes to the current ones
@Miradus You're next

Miradus - Today at 6:44 PM
Thanks.
Are there plans to expand the game world borders? Not just add new zones/rooms within the existing boundaries, but to push those borders out?

Rathustra - Today at 6:48 PM
Developing and improving the game world is a constant job. We're constantly butting up against things laid down in the most distant past of this game's ~20 years - there have been times when I and other staff have found objects in the distant wastes that we as staff have no understanding of. These monuments are forgotten testements to the past both IC and OOC. It's also the case that our current 'outer reaches' have not been improved upon for a very long time. As I mentioned earlier with my silt sea comments, the code sometimes lags behind the awesomeness of the theme and it is an important objective to bring those into alignment. While I can't say that this work will always push back the boundaries of the coded world (as we certainly already have regions outside 'the Known' as it is widely understood) - those edges are not a limit to our work.
@Kismet  ROUND TWO, FIGHT

Kismet - Today at 6:50 PM
Ah, yes.  When making decisions about future projects, plots, revisions to the game, etc., how much is influenced by negative interactions with players compared to positive ones?  If at all.

Nergal - Today at 6:52 PM
I don't think any changes are made based on negative interactions with players. We work on the game as a hobby, so we need to work positively and dismiss baseless negativity.

Kismet - Today at 6:52 PM
Apologies, can I redirect?

Nergal - Today at 6:52 PM
Sure

Kismet - Today at 6:53 PM
Uh, one instance I can think of where negative interactions with players has influenced changes in the game are code abuses and loopholes.  Are there no other positive or negative influences to staff's decisions in making changes to the game?

Nergal - Today at 6:53 PM
Yeah, that's a good point. No, there are no other negative influences. There are plenty of positive influences, e.g. wanting to strive to improve the game, or work based off of feedback/suggestions.

Kismet - Today at 6:54 PM
Cool.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 09:27:40 AM by Nergal »
  

Nergal

  • Producer
  • Posts: 757
Re: May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting - Q&A Log
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2017, 09:17:15 PM »
Nergal - Today at 6:54 PM
@tiptoe, You're up
@tiptoe

tiptoe - Today at 6:54 PM
Thank you! In regards to the karma overhaul, will this potentially be a ďeveryone starts back at zeroĒ kind of overhaul, blanket changes to those currently with karma, or something looked at on an individual basis?

Adhira - Today at 6:55 PM
We're still working out the finer details, and then looking at how to effect the changeover. This is what is causing the delay so far. What I can tell you is that we are not 'resetting' everyone's karma to 0.  It will be a sliding scale where people are placed on the new tiers to effectively be at the same level,
We won't be looking at this individually, rather we hope to just have a coded algorithm to make this work (cough, thanks Nathvaan).
But what we will be doing is futher making the process for gaining, and losing karma, transparent. And give everyone opportunities to be able to play the variety of classes, guilds, subguilds and so on.
@RabidMuffins give it your best

RabidMuffins - Today at 6:57 PM
What are your thoughts on adding in random chances to find rare or semi-rare items when foraging and/or exploring? Perhaps using the new wilderness coding that was more recently introduced?
Things that might cause plots and so on.

Nergal - Today at 6:59 PM
We have a script that allows for random distribution of one or more items to be foraged, and we have a means to set the next item to be foraged in a room. So the means are there, but no planned staff plot involving that yet.
At the moment the script's just being used for worldbuilding (specifically the Salt Flats).

Nergal - Today at 7:00 PM
@Proliferance You're next

Proliferance - Today at 7:00 PM
Above, @Nergal said, "Also to be clear, the scale is shrinking, not being chopped off at the top. It allows us to set better standards for moving up, keep deserving players moving up as much as possible, and set better standards for adjusting karma downward in a worst-case scenario." --How is it that if it will be easier to move up in karma (and for these old players to move down, even though it sounds like taking away karma in the past was something done already, unless I misunderstood) toward these roles, that you feel this will actually lower the 'amount' of psionicists/sorcs/muls being rolled out? Shrinking the gap sounds like creating more of them. I'm all for power to the new players (who prove worthy of it), but that actually sounds a little counter-intuitive to making there be less instances of 'a new sorc/mul/psion being in game every other few weeks'. Unless of course the difficulty of reaching this point is -increased- or the belief is that there's actually going to be fewer players worthy of that privilege.

Nergal - Today at 7:02 PM
We're focused on giving a more diverse group of people the ability to play those roles, while still limiting the overall amount of certain roles through other means.
The status quo is that 8-karma players play almost all of the sorcerers and psionicists, because those roles are highly inaccessible to most players, who are at 4 karma or below.
Basically, we don't want karma to be the only "gate" to the roles' rarity
Hopefully that's a bit clearer.

Proliferance - Today at 7:05 PM
Just to get the question answered, can you elaborate on how these are going to be limited? That's the meat of the question. How do you feel this limits these roles if it sounds like advertising a greater diversity of playerbase? Or are staff currently unwilling to elaborate on the 'gate' in question?
(With fairness offered to the fact there may be no such gate yet and this is all being worked on, of course!)

Nergal - Today at 7:06 PM
We're not willing to elaborate yet - things are still being worked on in that regard.
@Asanadas you're next

Asanadas - Today at 7:06 PM
Right, thanks for taking my question. Are there any plans for adding new "dumb" jobs such as salting, clay gathering, ye olde dung gathering, around Allanak? The Rinth? Barring that, the inclusion of more avenues of dirt-poor city-dwelling bottom feeders to subsist without necessarily having access to coin? Food foraging, spawns, and whatnot? Rangers already have this capacity with their foraging / survival skills, yet outdoors.

Nergal - Today at 7:08 PM
No new jobs are planned at the moment. Food foraging is already kind of possible in the cities, but I'd like to expand on that more with the city-based classes that are being planned. I think poor city-based roles deserve more love and I'm certainly shooting to give it to them.
@Dravage you're next

Dravage - Today at 7:09 PM
Hey folks. Thank you for spending your time running this game for us.

As the playerbase condenses around Allanak and the clans/plotlines there for the most part, is there a fear that the post-apocalyptic theme of ARM becomes diluted as more people play nobles/noble aides/people affiliated with or doing stuff for nobles in a city/political environment? Does the game retain its truly desert survival and adventure grit, in your guysí eyes, and is more being done to develop and protect that? Apologies, thatís several questions but you guys get the gist!

[Iíve just popped in quickly before something Ė I wonít be sticking around to ask my other proxy questions from the GDB thread! :)]

Rathustra - Today at 7:11 PM
The apocolyptic aspect of Armageddon's wilderness, its grit and savagery and the viciousness of life outside the city are all strong themes that direct my thinking when it comes to building and working on the game. It also informs my general staffing - it is the lense that I run the indies clan group through.
The emphasis on city-life is not opposite of apocalyptic survival as the city is an extention of the wastes. The same horrible impulses that drive a starving escaped slave to eat their fellow escapees to survive are those that push the rinth rat to pursue a life of crime or a noble to kill their sibling to claim their authority.
Also the city is an extention of the wastes in the sense that the city requires the wastes - it is not hermitically sealed. For every silken lord there are ten times as many brutal antagonists lurking outside their estates, barriers to their dreams.
Previously I gushed about the silt sea. I think the same enthusiasm I had there can be applied to all the wastes. It will be applied to all the wastes.
I have some stuff in the works right now that will give us the mechanical space to make survival more important and the city less isolated. The desert will consume all.
@tiptoe You're up.

tiptoe - Today at 7:14 PM
My question is actually pretty close to the previous one, but Iím asking more in regards to what is seen actually out in the wilderness. Does staff feel like the intended harshness of the game is reflected through player actions and the nonvirtual world?
Years ago, a simple trip from Tuluk to Luirs was something to prepare for and fear (if not for NPCs, it was raiders). The current game world, to me, feels far less harsh than this now. If raiders do exist, and a PC lives through the interaction to tell the tale, a massive force is mounted to take them out. If you meet someone in the wilds, thereís no fear of that interaction. I feel like as a whole, PK has become an action that seems like itís frowned upon, and that (to me) leads to a far less harsh game world. I donít know if this feeling comes from being a veteran player that knows the danger, or if things really have changed.

Nergal - Today at 7:18 PM
I think player-vs-player actions are at a good level right now. I get what you mean where PCs will sometimes become enemy of the world. All I can say without spoiling stuff is that there's been a bunch of PKs lately and a bunch of antagonistic plotting, and that phenomenon is largely non-existent now.

oryx - Today at 7:19 PM
I want to add to this...
I think there's a perception that PKs are frowned on partially built on the fact that we now ask for reports afterwards, or before, or wishing up.
That can lead to a feeling that the staff is hunched over their keyboard, waiting for some wrongful PK, but in fact we just want to stay up to date! On the cutting edge!
...as it were...
I personally love raiding. I love to see it, but it's up to the players on both sides to make it a satisfying experience. As to preparing for the wastes, I think you should always treat going out that way. That's part of setting the scene and it's on you to ramp up the realism through roleplay.(edited)
👍3
From my end, certainly the wastes are quite dangerous as I quite frequently see players die to them.

Nergal - Today at 7:23 PM
Now that we've got all the live questions out of the way, we'll move on to some questions asked on the GDB by those who couldn't be here
Armaddict asked: For those of us who are heavily code oriented and want to see more coded expansion in the game as far as producing content...

How big is 'too big'?  What is considered too large of a task for us to present as a solution?  How far are coders willing to go before it turns into 'time drain' versus 'Good addition to the game?'

Nathvaan - Today at 7:24 PM
In the interest of time I typed up a response a bit earlier...
I think the short answer is that there isnít a set level that is Ďtoo bigí.  We often have many very large projects in the pipeline and many many more smaller ones as well. Each and every project, much like any coding project, is scoped out for what features are required and what features would be nice and which features would be amazing but difficult.  Then there is a choice made based on the time and effort needed which features wonít make the cut.

We are willing to go as far as we must with the time and energy we have to devote to the coding projects, basically.  I try and set a personal goal to do one rather large project every three months.  I canít always keep that commitment, but I try!

Nergal - Today at 7:24 PM
Dravage asked:

Have the staff considered reopening Tuluk seriously, or at least another PC sphere alternative, or is the plan to double down on 'nak?
Does Luir's serve an important enough role in the game story all the way out there?
Does the game still have an inherently post-apocalyptic hard-to-live-environment atmosphere? Is this reflected in the plots, guilds, goings on?
Oash has the Circle, but the other open noble houses have no PC clans beneath them that are currently active. Has staff ever considered having fewer noble houses open to noble PCs but opening active clans (like the Wyverns or Elite) under them?

That's all I got for now! Might edit with more later.
We've talked about Tuluk a lot, and we have general ideas, but nothing at the "ready to share" level yet.
I think it's safe to say Luir's is increasingly becoming a hub of activity.

Rathustra - Today at 7:27 PM
There's been discussions about Tuluk. I'm personally of the opinion that Tuluk deserves to be done right - and done in a way that doesn't alienate the people who liked to play there - but in a way that infuses it completely with all the best parts.
I've answered the post-apoc. bit previously!

Nergal - Today at 7:27 PM
I think new clans are always an option. The Allanaki Gladiators a re under House Borsail.

Rathustra - Today at 7:28 PM
Player Clans have produced a lot of cool stuff. Some of the creativity and RP the system has generated has been awesome.
It's not quite what you asked with the 'clans under things' - but these are new clans in the cities!

Nergal - Today at 7:29 PM
Riev asked:

The game, and its virtual economy, seem structured on the fact that certain organizations monopolize certain trades. This house does raw goods, this one does water, that one works in slaves, and the like.

For a player, part of the strife they might encounter is being seen as a minor threat to one of these monopolies, but how likely IS it that an indie group can even come close to affording to create things that a GMH or Noble House does, enough to be threatening or bought out?

Also in that vein, outside of the MMH long-process, what is the expectancy of an indie group to survive if the things they create or specialize in are not in demand with NPC vendors? (I'm look at you, oil-based cleaners)
I think it's improbable, but not because the system doesn't allow for it. More because PCs die.
There's some mechanics in player clans that allow for profiting from vNPCs, but the game meta point of player clans is to interact with (and profit from) other players.

Rathustra - Today at 7:31 PM
We're starting to see the first player clans start to move into the late-middle levels of development. It's still too early (despite almost being out for so long) to see how things will work at the later stages, when player clans begin to become more like 'regular' clans.
Nergal's point is also a good one. I've been asked before by Player Clan pursuants about what we saw the point of the system was, and whether they were satisfying it.
The truth is that the Player Clan system is not around to make MMHs - it's around to empower players to develop their own groups and drive RP around the spaces and groups they develop using it.
In this respect we've had some absolute stars and my crown of skulls off to them for it.

Nergal - Today at 7:32 PM
650Booger wrote:

inflation of the game currency.  it seems inevitable.  how to combat it?
related:
coin sinks vs coin faucets, is there adequate balance?

---
It's combated by player death, and the fact that not every room is a save room.
There's been some recent efforts to change how much sid that coin faucets spew into the world - for example, readjustments to spice sifting code and the way salt foraging works.
I think it's at a happy balance, but there'll always be something to improve.
Melkor asked:
1) What active publicity efforts are being/will be made in the near future?

Nathvaan - Today at 7:34 PM
One effort is this discord channel to assist with it being a more active community.  Another is work being done on a series of video tutorials to help with traversing the learning curve because we reconize it is a pretty significant barrier to entry.  There are also discussions on how we could use twitter and facebook to highlight events that are happening in the IC world while still balancing it against making sure we donít spoil any playerís active plots either.
To that end, I'd like to share the intro for the first video.  Hot off the presses!
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B76biRcpBhe5WURfZWd1ZjVpSWs
Google Drive
TestIntroEP1.mp4

Nergal - Today at 7:35 PM
While you all watch that, Sadus asked:

I'd be interested in hearing about the planned update to the karma system.  Even if it's just very general stuff about what you're trying to accomplish with the change.

Alpha - Today at 7:36 PM
May I ask a question? I'm not sure what the process is
kinda late to this party

Nergal - Today at 7:36 PM
We're going over GDB questions now, we did live questions earlier, but there'll be general discussion soon.

Alpha - Today at 7:36 PM
Okay, sorry for interrupting :smiley:

Nergal - Today at 7:36 PM
Well, for Sadus's question, we already went over the karma stuff thoroughly.
Molten Heart asked:

Currently, there are areas in the game where the "map" just ends, stopping continued travel in certain directions but the game world is assumed to continue on virtually.

Is there any interest or desire by staff (or even plans) to expand the game world on a larger scale with the addition of new wilderness areas and/or even civilized settlements? And is there anything players could do to help or assist staff with a project like this?
Miradus asked that basically, and the answer is "maybe"!
HavokBlue asked:

With a couple years worth of experience and knowledge, does the current staff team feel the Builder program was/is a success? Are there things you know now that you wish you knew going in?
Modify message

Rathustra - Today at 7:37 PM
OUR BUILDERS ARE AWESOME

Nergal - Today at 7:37 PM
Yes I agree.

Renenutet - Today at 7:37 PM
And tasty too.

Akariel - Today at 7:38 PM
Except for the times I get jealous of them.

Rathustra - Today at 7:38 PM
There are some minor snags but they have nothing to do with the builders themselves. They're a great asset and great people.

oryx - Today at 7:38 PM
Whoa. I so extremely love our builders.

Nergal - Today at 7:38 PM
The best people.

oryx - Today at 7:38 PM
Very grateful to them.

Renenutet - Today at 7:38 PM
Yes. A definite success.

Nergal - Today at 7:39 PM
perfecto perfectly asked:

Are those friendly giants in RSE ever going to poke their heads out and say hello?  I assume their motto is "we came for the land, but we stay for the Mek steaks"

Adhira - Today at 7:39 PM
I like builders.

Nergal - Today at 7:39 PM
Giants are friendly? Hrm.

Adhira - Today at 7:39 PM
Re: giants - watch that space.
  

Nergal

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Re: May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting - Q&A Log
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2017, 09:17:29 PM »
Nergal - Today at 7:39 PM
mansa asked:

What is the ideal state of the game to be in, at which another location in the world would be opened up for players to play in?  Is there a player population goal that we should aim for, before new areas are built?


Was closing of Tuluk successful in consolidating the world and plots?  What are the 'lessons learned' from that?


What is "success" for ArmageddonMUD ?

Rathustra - Today at 7:40 PM
Success, for me, is when I'm having fun and my STs are having fun.

Nergal - Today at 7:41 PM
I think Rath described it perfectly. Staff are having fun, players are having fun, and even if we disagree we at least respect each other. Mutual respect helps move the game forward more than anything else outside of the game.
This is, ultimately, a collaborative game, despite the tagline.

Rathustra - Today at 7:41 PM
Fun, for me, is when the world is rich, vibrant, consistant, real and meshes with players in harmony. When I see players interacting seamlessly with Armageddon's wider, less-than-coded world - that's when the magick happens.

Nergal - Today at 7:42 PM
Regarding Tuluk I think closing Tuluk was successful in consolidating.
And regarding the ideal state of the game, there isn't one that can be measured in player count. If people are having fun... that's the ideal.

Renenutet - Today at 7:44 PM
I think, on the subject of Tuluk, it's important to address that part head on. We're not deaf. We're not ignoring you guys. We do understand that people are still feeling that loss. Ultimately the choices have to lean toward long term benefit to the entire game. It's faster to take stuff out than add it in. So, yeah, it has been painful. It has also been successful though perhaps it's most honest to say a mitigated success.
Mitigated by the fact that people are still concerned about it.

Nergal - Today at 7:45 PM
Yeah. Taking Tuluk out hurts, but we promise that whatever we do, we'll try to make it good for the game in the long term.
Dresan asked:

1. After guild changes will staff consider taking another look at regular/extended sub-guilds in order to increase and improve currently selection based on player feedback?

2. It feels like alot of the changes, including guild and exended guild changes are taken straight out of ideas out of Arm2, are there anymore Arm2 ideas that the staff wish to be implemented?

3. There seems to be a big disparity between the value of strength and other stats, even agility.  Any thoughts on this?

4. Will the staff consider removing the seemingly omnipotent virtual presence in the game? The type of stuff that allows volcanoes to shift across the known?
1) Yes, I think it would be fair to look at subclasses again, just to be sure it's all working right.
2) Not that I can immediately think of.
3) I think it's a popular thought in a lot of stat-based RPGs that there's a strong stat or a dump stat. I don't think it's true for Arm.
I say that as someone who's looked through the game's code and tested things out before.

Rathustra - Today at 7:47 PM
3) It's hard to gauge this. I think strength comes out on top because it has such an immediate ant explicit benefit. Other stats tend to be much more diffuse in how they contribute to a character.

Nergal - Today at 7:48 PM
For 4) I think it's important to maintain a sense of consistency in the virtual world
So we're going to operate consistently in accordance for what the game world's various features allow for.
And that covers ALL the questions
Now it's general discussion time, for anyone who'd like to generally discuss.
  

Nergal

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Re: May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting - Q&A Log
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 09:18:18 PM »
The general discussion portion will take a while longer to clean up and will be posted separately. If you want to read it in the Discord format you can log in to our Discord server and read the whole discussion in the #meeting channel.
  

Nergal

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Re: May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting - General Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2017, 08:42:41 AM »
General discussion:

Renenutet - Yesterday at 7:50 PM
If you will all permit me, I'd like to ask all of you a question

Lizzie - Yesterday at 7:50 PM
Nergal is the model of a modern major general.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 7:50 PM
Shoot :smiley:

Alpha - Yesterday at 7:50 PM
eagerly awaits

RabidMuffins - Yesterday at 7:50 PM
Sure thing!

Tregil - Yesterday at 7:50 PM
You need to put your request in Queue first :smile:

Rathustra - Yesterday at 7:51 PM
Find out OOC.

Lizzie - Yesterday at 7:52 PM
Renenutet types too slow. Can't we just SAP him and steal his pack?

Ooze - Yesterday at 7:52 PM
Yes

Tregil - Yesterday at 7:52 PM
He didnt pre-type his question and opened up to a whole bunch of trolling. Newbie mistake :smile:

Renenutet - Yesterday at 7:52 PM
Recently on the GDB there's been a discussion that really caught my eye. It spoke to something that challenges me as a staffer. People seem to feel that it's vital to their enjoyment to have extremely long lived PCs. I struggle to figure out how to involve players in stories when they seem rather invested in avoiding danger. I thought @Armaddict put it brilliantly when he said that people are more invested in preserving their pcs than experiencing things with them.
How do you guys feel this can best be addressed? What drives this phenomenon?

Alpha - Yesterday at 7:53 PM
short and sweet: the time investment required to get a character to a reasonable level of skill far exceeds that of other games

Miradus - Yesterday at 7:54 PM
I think most people think they CAN avoid danger, which is just incorrect. The driver behind it is probably that people identify very strongly with their characters instead of just grabbing a persona and toying with it awhile.

Lizzie - Yesterday at 7:54 PM
I'm definitely someone who tends to play it "safe." I want to see my character's story continue. I can get to a "reasonable" level of skill as fast as any twink, I just choose not to because it's the story that drives me.

ChrisCoul - Yesterday at 7:54 PM
Thats hard for me cause I don't feel that way.  Dying from taking action and doing what your character would do is fun.

Miradus - Yesterday at 7:54 PM
My characters aren't me. I wouldn't want them to be. I enjoy them if they live awhile, or if they die quick, so long as they die pursuant to THAT character.

Lizzie - Yesterday at 7:54 PM
For me it's as simple as that.

Ooze - Yesterday at 7:54 PM
I don't understand the phenomena, so Idk.
Im with @ChrisCoul  yeah

Asanadas - Yesterday at 7:55 PM
A character that is long lived == a character that is competent. What's more, it's a character that most likely has connections. These sorts of characters are usually more fun, get more stuff accomplished than newbie chars.

Kismet - Yesterday at 7:55 PM
Is Friday once said I have a "cautious" playstyle that leads to my character living a long time, but looking back, I don't think that's true, at all.  Diving into risks is something I enjoy.  I think the problem for me occurs when I'm playing leaders and I'm responsible for the survival of characters under me.  And I can draw two direct comparisons:

mansa - Yesterday at 7:55 PM
I remember a conversation that Captain Canadia had a thousand years ago, and that is ArmageddonMUD is a western fantasy game played by people primarily from North America, and we want to live up to those fantasy tropes.
I want to have a hero that can accomplish things, and kill people, and survive

Alpha - Yesterday at 7:55 PM
5-10 days is commonly quoted as being the point at which your character becomes moderately competent. i also agree that developing relationships is something that is a factor. for reference, though, if you take something like vanilla wow... remember vanilla wow? how hard it was to grind to 60? It only took 5-10 days played, tops.

Kismet - Yesterday at 7:55 PM
As Arjaan, I never had a single person die under my command.  As Grir, I sacrificed tons of people for the adventure of the group.  I definitely had more fun on the latter.

Miradus - Yesterday at 7:55 PM
That's a cool thought, Mansa, but people DO die in those tropes. They just die really, really well.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 7:55 PM
Personally, having played for so damn long and having had so few long lived characters and none that I felt were great combatants (maybe 1) I think that it's that combat skills (offence/defense/weapon skills) Take so GOD DAMN LONG to train without resorting to complete twinkery that makes people want to preserve their characters before doing dangerous stuff. I think that the Class project and having characters start out with buffer skills will he a HUGE help @Renenutet

Kismet - Yesterday at 7:56 PM
So for me, I think maybe encouraging players to dive into danger and expect nothing but fun out of it is the way to go there.

Alpha - Yesterday at 7:56 PM
the change i'd like to see is lowering the barrier to entry, although I think skill bumps and stuff are a nod to that
this is purely from a combat player's perspective though

Miradus - Yesterday at 7:57 PM
Here's a rub ... I die heroically and well and maybe 2-3 other people know about it, and it's at least a year before that heroic death can ever be known to the community at large. That SUCKS.

Kismet - Yesterday at 7:57 PM
I can't really speak to the average indie or anything, though, because my perspective is almost entirely from the clan.

Mirudus - Yesterday at 7:57 PM
There's also something to be said about players who have gotten to positions of power (noble/GMH/Templar/etc) who are afraid to spark conflict to upset the status quo. Once a balance is maintained, it's hard to upset it without getting ganged by the others in those positions; unless the virtual world moves to angle them against one another (somehow, which shouldn't be hard), it's hard to be "that guy" in the clique of, say, 4 or 5 nobles that just doesn't get along with the rest of the established group.

mansa - Yesterday at 7:58 PM
@Miradus Yeah.  I think it comes with -why- are you playing?  What do you want to do.  What story do you want to tell?  How can you tell it?    And you feel that if you die to a scrab in the wastes, you can't really pretend to be your narrative.

Miradus - Yesterday at 7:58 PM
You nailed it, @mansa

Alpha - Yesterday at 7:58 PM
i have a question for the administration if i may, when the time is appropriate. i am really not sure what the protocol is here

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 7:58 PM
I don't believe in playing 'stupid'. My character is, to me, a living being with thoughts and feelings and motivations. So I wonder WHY would they do something potentially harmful before I do it. There is also the very real knee jerk 'flee' response that you have to overcome which can ruin a scene. It is beneficial in most games, but detrimental in Arm when interacting with other players (sometimes - in SOME raiding/RP instances). It takes a bit to get over the 'chickenshit' factor and let scenes play out. Essentially.. time under a players belt and individual character motivation?

oryx - Yesterday at 7:58 PM
There's this awkward balance where if we make progression too easy, there's no value in greatness, skillwise. If everyone can take scrabs after a few days played, we'll start hearing that the wastes aren't dangerous enough.

Nathvaan - Yesterday at 7:59 PM
@Alpha Ask away!

mansa - Yesterday at 7:59 PM
@oryx Yup.  Exactly.

Lizzie - Yesterday at 7:59 PM
Agree with sprinkles.

Alpha - Yesterday at 7:59 PM
It seems like the general trend with helpfiles, subguilds, etc. is toward more transparency. Was this an experiment? Is it going well? Is this going to be a trend that continues with the guild reworks?

Renenutet - Yesterday at 7:59 PM
Is there anything I can do to get you guys to come join in? To put that competancy to use, even with the risks?

Tregil - Yesterday at 7:59 PM
Sometimes, a role is such that if not already proeffecient, it will spell out a quick, relatively uneventful, boring, and wasteful end of the character. In which case the desire to skill up a little first before investing your own feelings and interests in the game is .... tempting. Spend a few weeks of doing that and then die to something silly and there is this sudden 'reluctance' of playing another character. In reality it's bogus. Not every character needs to be pre-skilled before doing anything. But the temptation is there.   Much like there is a temptation to allow this specific character to die quick, before being emotionally invested into him. Because you are itching to play a character that would climb a lot due to whatever concept in mind, but the character rolled a 80 hp and is pretty much doomed to crit fail-dying within a rl month.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:00 PM
There is that too @oryx I like the wilderness being dangerous :smiley:

oryx - Yesterday at 8:00 PM
Rene, they need to feel that the rewards are worth the risk.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:00 PM
Ren: I think it really shouldn't be too optional. Like in Allanak, if you want to LIVE in Allanak you have to risk Templar/noble/guard death.
The walls may keep people out, but they also trap people in.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:00 PM
@Renenutet rewards! :smiley: Trinkets and staff restrung  doo-dads that no one else can get and like a pat on the back from vennant or a templar :smiley:

Yam - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
/Rorschach

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
Has staff explored the concepts of RPP?   Not Karma. But some points gathered during gameplay, from kudos of staff and playerbase. Some points that people would be able to spend for skill ups/stat ups?

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
Sure.

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
Rewards are a dead end.

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
@Renenutet I think the promise of a good time is really all you need to lure people in.

Ooze - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
I want pancakes!

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
We've explored all kinds of things.

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
I agree with @Miradus . I think danger needs to be brought to people

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
People will only risk their characters if they have to risk

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
@Renenutet About your far earlier question (that I would have loved to chime in on at the time, but I was busy RL!) as to long lived, etc, my longest lived PCs were built to be the biggest douchebags with only a few redeeming characteristics. I found a direct correlation between doing wild-ass-crazy-man things to how long my PCs lived. It might be a curse. Dive as deep down the rabbit hole as you can; there is a grind to be made though, and we all want our stories to go on!

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:01 PM
You see the difficulty here. Different players are encouraged by different things for their PCs :smiley:

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:02 PM
The trick is to make that risk rewarding, even if you die. I dont play because I dont see much of a reward in the roleplay id get from risking myself

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:02 PM
I'm actually a little surprised at the answers.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:02 PM
That's why I have come to like clan play more than indie play. My story continues WHEN I die.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:02 PM
Alpha as a player I can say that yes the trend is continuing :smiley:

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:02 PM
I think a lot of the problem has to do with an aspect of metagaming. You shouldn't be weighing benefits and rewards. If your character would do it, do it.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:02 PM
@Bushranger Yeah I'm more wondering about the policy

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:03 PM
I'm appreciating the answers. I confess I'm not sure what to do with them. But I have time to think about it.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:03 PM
as a long time player that came back, I was surprised to see so much code information in help files

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:03 PM
So my not on-topic question for staff is:  Do you feel that the Way facilitates more interesting plots in the game, or does it have potential to hinder it?

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:03 PM
I've put myself into risky situations - but no one ever takes the bait.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:03 PM
Up your bait game, Lizzie :smiley:

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:03 PM
I'm too chickenshit :smiley:

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:04 PM
@Alpha pleasantly surprised, or not

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:04 PM
Sadly. Every time I decide to go all out on risk characters, these guys refuse to die. I literally pickpocketed Red Robes and still survived. But when I play the most careful character ever, I die in most idiotic of ways.

Nathvaan - Yesterday at 8:04 PM
@Alpha Can you give me an example and what you were expecting?  I can say that we are interested in transparency when it doesn't kill the mystery of learning how things work.

mansa - Yesterday at 8:04 PM
@Kismet The way is a brilliant tool to get players -together- to play in a text based game.  I personally tend to think of it as an OOC tool that they have an IC reason for.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:04 PM
@Kismet I think both.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:05 PM
Very pleasantly surprised. I am 100% in favor of lowering the barrier to entry for new players who are combat oriented
What I'm hoping is that it's gong to be a trend moving forward that more information is accessible

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:05 PM
I agree with @Alpha on that one. I like transparency.

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:05 PM
You know, @Renenutet, one thing I noticed is that I was never afraid to put myself at the mercy of the game world, which I understood well, and nor to my peers, which I could game more or less easily, but it was always difficult for me to put myself at the whims of the people who could backroom kill me.  I think people will be hesitant to take risks at what they can't control, just like people do in real life.

Ooze - Yesterday at 8:05 PM
Bring back non-master for everyone contact

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:05 PM
There are many things about the actual mechanical operation of armageddon that are not at all readily apparent to new players

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:05 PM
@Kismet This man's got it.

Aranix - Yesterday at 8:05 PM
I feel like a character's power should follow a logarithmic curve. It shouldn't take extremely long to become competent, but it should take a while to become the best

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:06 PM
Personally I think the Way is too easy. I would prefer if it was limited, like say 50 characters max and more draining. Make sending messengers or letters more important for long or complicated messages :smiley: You could send "Lord So   and So I'm available" but not hold long discussions :smiley:
But thats just me.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:06 PM
It's me too. I want the Way to be pretty much "Meet me at Red's" and then you're mentally exhausted.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:06 PM
@Bushranger And there is the whole conundrum for the game 'that's just me'.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:06 PM
@staff I was really just curious about if you guys thought it was going well, i.e. revealing skill levels for subguilds, if you're gonna do the same thing for main guilds, so on and so forth

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:06 PM
@Renenutet    Have you experienced players refusing to participate in the plots you've been running due to their apperant danger?

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:07 PM
Exactly @Adhira so I'm happy with having staff tell me about the game :smiley:

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:07 PM
@Alpha It is our intention to state that kind of information where possible, and where it should be general knowledge. Yes.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:07 PM
@Kismet I think you make a great point. I was thinking less about backroom kills and more about buying in to big plots. Participating fully in RPTs.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:07 PM
@Alpha That's the plan

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:07 PM
That's pretty much how it already is now, Aranix. The start is rough - then you have a spurt of quick progression to competent. Then comes the long stretch to mastery.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:07 PM
Backroom kills can be fun too, but as staff we don't do many of them. But if we did? We'd be really good at it.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:08 PM
Thank you guys that answers my question(s) :smiley:

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:08 PM
Well. I'd be best at it.

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 8:08 PM
I kinda like the Way the way it is, personally. Just because there have been times I have literally been on my character's back and trapped in one spot for RL hours doing nothing but business.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:08 PM
The backroom kill is almost completely avoidable for most roles.

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:08 PM
@Renenutet I've never felt the desire to shy away froM RPTs, in fact I always regretted they were played mostly on weekends and those are the days I frequently work.  I don't think you should make RPTs less dangerous, though.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:08 PM
OK one more question for staff. What makes staff happy that players can do? What do staff want to see more from players?

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:08 PM
Regarding the recent "Hai, I'm too afraid of being banned, but here's some complaints from an anonymous account" threads that's showed up lately and 'have' generated some amount of controversy. Does the staff team think this is an issue worth approaching? The whole 'dont argue, or be banned' stigma. Was there any amount of discussion happening staffside that would allow people who believed themselves wronged by staff actions (whether correctly, or not) to talk these issues out in a more public setting? Is the "staff trust" an issue at all, or is it considered just rubblerousing of the very few, who dont even really play anymore. Is there any ideas in the works to somehow alleviate the building snowball of self-perpetuating mistrust, or is the opinion that this strata of players isnt even bringing anything solid to the gameworld anyway.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:09 PM
@Bushranger I love when you guys bring it. I sit up top and watch you. And I'm awed.
Not to blow smoke up your collective asses but you guys are amazing.

Yam - Yesterday at 8:10 PM
+1 to Tregil

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:10 PM
You know I staff  Borsail. I love to log in and watch The Borsails. You guys and rp the pants off me. People say the game is dead.
It is not dead. You gus are murdering corrupting and betraying the hell out of this game.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:10 PM
@Tregil - this channel is one way.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
Where's Cayuga and the others who watch the indies?! Where's the indie love?

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
Glory to Borsail! :yum:

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
Just play hard. I like when you play hard. When you follow the docs and bring the world to life.

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
@Proliferance I'm the indies Admin >:O
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 08:44:17 AM by Nergal »
  

Nergal

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  • Posts: 757
Re: May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting - General Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2017, 08:43:05 AM »
RabidMuffins - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
I'm a bit behind on the discussion because of RL. I'll try to hop in here.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
@Tregil I would like to think that efforts like this meeting and setting up the Discord and the fact that we let prominent banned players contribute here show that we want to be reached, and talked to.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
This is an interesting setting and I'm digging it, but I must confess, I keep waiting for someone to pee in the soup.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
Trust is a bridge and we're doing our best to be at the halfway point to meet you guys.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:11 PM
@Rathustra Love me more, dammit.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
And The Borsails is not the only show I'm tuning in for, either. I watch all the good stuff.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
prominent banned players? o.O

RabidMuffins - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
Do you, as staff, feel it reflects poorly on players when they tend to go through PCs quickly?

Mirudus - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
Personally, aside from a few sidelong glances I've made at some decisions here and there, I think the players who are rabble-rousing on that note don't remember the days when having a staff member with a personal vendetta against you would literally get you mantis spawned around you and crap like that. It was a long time ago, and I'm not stating that it excuses perceived faults, but... I've been here a long, long time and if anything, I feel more comfortable than ever approaching staff and saying "I think this is wrong and here's why."

Asanadas - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
@Alpha :wave::skin-tone-1:

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
@Proliferance My love is like a proud father.

Asanadas - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
Which is something I appreciate as a side-note

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
@Nergal I'd say that the trend towards increased transparency and communication is a really positive one

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:12 PM
@Rathustra Make Tribes Great Again. Tribes are the Real Athas!

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:13 PM
Yeah what is too quick to go through pcs? :smiley:

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:13 PM
4 a day

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:13 PM
@staff Do you feel that any player is redeemable?  What level does it take to be truly marked for permabanning?

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:13 PM
@RabidMuffins If that's true, I'm boned. I blew through 35 characters in like 2 months to learn Arm. First MUD, and I had no friends who played MUDs. And I just tried so hard to stay alive, and never made it more than like a day played, ahahaha. But I sure learned a lot. Very quickly. 35 ways not to stay alive.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:13 PM
@Kismet Yes.
I think the only way you could be permabanned and really excessively hunted down to be banned for evading the ban over a long period of time, is if you commit a crime

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:14 PM
@staff With that in mind, what lessons can we teach new players to avoid conflicts with staff in the future?

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:14 PM
Otherwise, I don't think anyone here cares enough to hold a grudge that long

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:14 PM
@Kismet I can't speak for Producers, who make that decision - but I think the only irredeemable players are those who go outside the game to attack staff or players. Either by stalking or relentless abuse.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:14 PM
Don't be a dick.
Goes both ways, of course.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:14 PM
I guess first rule of avoiding bad feelings is to stop going on and on about old bad feelings.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:14 PM
True.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:15 PM
@staff How can players who have had problems in the past best figure out a way to get right with the administration?

Feco - Yesterday at 8:15 PM
So what you're saying is I should stop following you to work, Rathustra?

Nathvaan - Yesterday at 8:15 PM
@Miradus Sounds a little like the first rule of fight club!

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:15 PM
I'm confused about the kudos system lately.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:15 PM
@Alpha best way would be to reach out to us for a discussion. Request tool if you have access to it, mud@armageddon.org if you don't. Everything's negotiable.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:15 PM
I've got a lot of kudos I want to send, but I can't do it without letting the person receiving it know who sent it.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
I've never worried about that @Miradus

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
I don't mind knowing that it's you who sent it to me Miradus, feel free to send that Kudos!

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
@Feco Stay away from my surrogate proud-father here.

Feco - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
I don't mind either

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
:wink:

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
@Alpha Come back and play. If you want us to move on a great place to start is by moving on too. Just be a functioning member of the community. Play. Follow the rules. Don't be a dick. We won't be dicks. It'll all be good.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
heh. It's just a lot of the good roleplay I witnessed wasn't in a large group setting.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
I'm here and playing

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
@Renenutet I really can't stop thinking about your question.  It's not something I personally understand, but I would be interested to find out more.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
Don't worry! I just asked the question in general terms in case anyone else was wondering.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:16 PM
@Alpha Then you're doing it right.
@Kismet The question about playing safe?

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:18 PM
yes

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:18 PM
Oh oh oh! I have a question from the Discord general channel regular crew!

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:18 PM
Some amount of safety is sensible. You're playing a person.

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:18 PM
In particular, avoiding RPTs that might be dangerous.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:18 PM
Who (barring specific cases) likely does not want to die.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:18 PM
I'll confess I am personally somewhat at an impasse. A thread that I basically disregarded at first, eventually lead to a log posted that displayed such ugliness. The posting of that log was in breach of rules. And yet without reading that log, I would've thought the player to be exaggerating and staff in the right. If the player didnt break the rules. I would've continued thinking that everything was done correctly. But it wasnt. It was very ugly and borderline against staff policy (I 'think') Then the threads got locked and controversy died down. The player's own worth diminished due to her breaking rules to post the stuff. The world goes on, but I dont log into the game until the wrong has been rectified. Even though ... I want to! It's an awesome game.

Aranix - Yesterday at 8:18 PM
Focus: die gloriously

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
I avoid those RPTs more because I can't handle the screen scroll of multi-PC combat, Kismet. I just kind of stand there staring.

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
I kinda would have thought that avoiding something dangerous that you SHOULD be at would be frowned on?

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
I'm the same. I'm vision-impaired and I can't handle a lot going on.

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
Right, I get that, and my characters usually have some amount of self preservation, as I said.  But idk, I think of RPTs as something external.  A chance to really have a great time, and you see those really dangerous RPTs as something to aspire to survive, not avoid.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
It made me wonder how many times this happened? It clearly have. Considering the recent "bye bye" threads. That situations happened, some conflicts with staff where staff ... might not have been in the right. But nobody knows. Except the player who left and the staff.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
@Kismet I don't understand it either. And I don't want to inadvertantly say something insensitive. I just encourage people to be part of the story.  As an aside I've had very long lived pcs. But the pcs that I remember best lived about 12 hours and people still remember that pc.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
When you play at a 32 font, that's life :smiley:

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
Let's say we wanted to MC a big pickle jar where you type "Get Pickle Jar" and you get a random pickled object, scrab eye, egg, scorpion, cockroack that fell in, maybe a rat tail. Then there is a cumulative 5% chance of terradin poisoning for every pickle item you  eat. Will that need special code?

Feco - Yesterday at 8:19 PM
I play dangerously and I'm not sure how I don't die more often

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:20 PM
I don't think people care if they die, really. I think they want to go where the fun is happening, even if it's risky fun.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:20 PM
For me that 12 PC is the success story. Not the one who "left a mark" that no one ever pays any attention to. The stories are the best part, not the part where you type skill or inventory.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:20 PM
@Tregil - what are you asking from us then?

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:20 PM
Ack! Was that too much?

ChrisCoul - Yesterday at 8:20 PM
This is kind of like an rpt

bahliker - Yesterday at 8:20 PM
Just came in so I need to scroll way back to catch up. I just want to say @staff  that setting up this channel is proof positive that whatever divide there is between staff and players - real or imagined - is shrinking. Thanks for taking the beloved Game seriously.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:21 PM
The best characters are the ones you have fun with.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:21 PM
As to the whole safety thing, I always saw people doing crazy things as oddly jarring to a 'real' character. Unskilled people braving drov beetles all the time to get an 80 sid sack of flour, for instance. Just as an example, would you go to walmart without an escort to get a few loaves of bread (through an area filled with lions), when you can just eat steak at your house? This is just a made up example, that actually applies to PCs, if you see my point.
So I would say, don't get mad if people are reasonably cautious; it makes sense for their characters probably.

RabidMuffins - Yesterday at 8:21 PM
@Bushranger  I remember us talking about that!

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:21 PM
There are some characters who have no such compunctions, and they are more fun to play IMO

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:22 PM
@bahliker agree $100%

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:22 PM
@Proliferance  No argument that people should behave reasonably. I'm not arguing for madness.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:22 PM
I think plots should be risked, lives should be taken, and coup should be counted.
That social player who never leaves the tavern? Bring the risk to them.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:23 PM
@Renenutet I feel you. I'm just outlining how some plots might seem to characters IC. Very threatening. Very endangering. Even just acting with a templar is extremely dangerous for a commoner. Much less some of the other things I've gotten up to. :wink:

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:23 PM
I'm fine with PK. As long as I'm not the one doing the killing. Being an assassination victim means you did something right.

Feco - Yesterday at 8:24 PM
(I'm advocating madness)

ChrisCoul - Yesterday at 8:24 PM
@Miradus  The city might be too safe because of op crim code though.  That would bring the danger to the tavern.   Do we want the tavern to always be dangerous though?

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:24 PM
I'm with Feco on that.

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:25 PM
I'm advocating a logical and reasonable level of madness.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:25 PM
Crimcode is what has led to people not being afraid of crap.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:25 PM
Perhaps getting in front of the problem, @Adhira? There are incidents that are alluded to, but are unknown. And people with variable preference and bias imagine the worst, or the best. The problem does exist. It does. And it is affecting players. It affected me, even though I am not connected, or influenced by "any" of them in game.   Perhaps if staff could speak with some of the people involved in the recent incidents and get permissions from everyone involved to make the issues public, it would alleviate other people's worries? My worries, at the very least :).

oryx - Yesterday at 8:25 PM
@Lizzie I completely agree! I'm thrilled when I die to PK! Best way to go!

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:25 PM
@Feco What's your position on mayhem?

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:25 PM
@Malifaxis Much like your own?

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:25 PM
PK is definately the best way to die! @Lizzie @oryx

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:25 PM
Yeah that's just not a road we're going to go down. We're not in the business of embarrassing players that we think are wrong.

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:26 PM
And unto @th3KAISER go the spoils

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:26 PM
What Nergal just said - wasn't always the case.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:26 PM
@Lizzie @Feco Don't get me wrong, I'm all for madness. I'm just saying, if it makes sense that a character wouldn't do something, the player shouldn't do it just for fun. Stick to the character you've built. This has been something I've struggled with in the past!

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:26 PM
But it is now and I for one am thankful for it.

ChrisCoul - Yesterday at 8:26 PM
Praise the PK

Yam - Yesterday at 8:26 PM
@Nergal @Mirudus @Tregil I think staff are more trustworthy now than ever about avatar misuse, but I think there's less trust in staff decisions now than there was a few years ago. Both long term decisions like the magicker guild change and in day-to-day game decisions, player punishments, etc. I really can't put my finger on what the problem is just as I couldn't in the thread from a few months ago, but something is still disturbingly wrong.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:27 PM
That's understandable. But for example Bardlyone's issue. You stopped the topic with this exact argument. In response, the player posted a log, which was not at all embarrassing to the player and showed intense amount of ugliness from the staff.   So that argument works, until it doesnt, @Nergal

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:27 PM
Oh that - yes very true Proliferance. If you want to do crazy, make sure to either build it into your PC's background, or let it happen organically through the non-virtual play of your character.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:27 PM
@Tregil I agree, there are problems. I agree there are things that can be improved.  My question is what level do you want us to go to in an instance where someone is having an issue.  You said they went against rules by posting logs. We also have log, we have requests and emails. I've been firmly against sharing this correspondence. The reason for that is not to protect staff - it's to protect the game as a whole.  How comfortable are you in playing a game where when there is an issue it turns into a forum where each side is acting like they're in a courtroom producing evidence? I want people to be able to express their opinions, I want to make things better. But mostly, I want them to play the game. Not try and play staff, or public opinion.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:27 PM
I really wish we could avoid using the first real open forum with staff for rehashing an old issue most of us weren't involvedin.

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:28 PM
Can we please walk away from the decomposing corpse of this horse.  I must agree with @Miradus

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:28 PM
Maybe you could allow people the option to bring their argument public.

Feco - Yesterday at 8:28 PM
@Renenutet I feel like this is a setup for a joke I missed.  BUT I FEEL VERY STRONGLY THST MAYHEM RULEz

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:28 PM
@Tregil Again, I'm not going to embarrass players or shame them by posting proof against their arguments. I can and will point out when they are incorrect, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:28 PM
Personally in all years and years of play I've never seen staff avatar abuse (not saying it never has happened) but I  have seen a lot of salty players from reasonable things that have happened.

RabidMuffins - Yesterday at 8:28 PM
I agree with @Miradus

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:29 PM
There was a time where staff did that, and now we don't. Players need to respect that.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:29 PM
@Bushranger Depends on your definition of abuse
There's definitely been some pretty questionable PC play by staff in the past. No offense staff.

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:29 PM
Have a different type of 'complaint' system that isn't necessarily a complaint system, but more of an open dialogue regarding issues. Have a multi step process, that begins through the request sytem and is open to ALL staff, with logs of the occurance

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:29 PM
So...uh...how about them ranger nerfs?

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:29 PM
Please don't smite me.

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:29 PM
Staff can weigh in, espeically staff not directly involved.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
@Yam It's very hard to address a concern you cannot voice. If you do identify it and would like to discuss it, you know where to find us.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
Requests are open to all staff, and all staff do weigh in  on the resolution.

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
And then, if the person is still not convinced or comfortable with the decision, give the option of public influence

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
What they don't do is directly reply, we try and keep that to one person replying.

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
I think a big problem is when people say "the past", unlike in other games this can mean up to a decade ago.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
@Nergal , even when the players in question themselves are "asking" you to post this proof? Even when after being shut down, they went against the rules to post their logs that showed that staff was in the wrong instead?

oryx - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
Or more than a decade ago!

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
@rathustra Absolutely. I mean I first logged on Arm maybe fifteen years ago

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
@ Tregil again - this goes to the good of the game.k
  

Nergal

  • Producer
  • Posts: 757
Re: May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting - General Discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2017, 08:43:30 AM »
Nergal - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
@Tregil Yes, even then.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
So when I say "in the past" that's a massive scope

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:30 PM
There was an instance where a staff member responded and posted correspondence to prove their point.
People were upset, up in arms, some left.
That's not a situation we want to have.

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:31 PM
@Alpha Sometimes we need a break - I've been at the receiving end of distrust born before all of the current staff were even staff sometimes.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:31 PM
Yeah. lol. The staff is a lot more superb as far as transparency and self-control compared to some 10+ years ago :).

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:31 PM
It wasn't there information, but they need to feel that their exchanges are save.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:31 PM
@rathustra My intention is definitely not to create any mistrust or spite, I was just commenting on that mistrust that existed already to be quite honest

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:31 PM
It's called "airing dirty laundry" for a reason. Sometimes, a player knows better than to bring it up - they only bring it up because they WANT to pick a fight.

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:31 PM
we're on the samge page. I am deifnitely not blaming anyone for what people did ten years ago

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
And they want to make sure everyone knows about it. It's - disturbing.

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
@Adhira I think potentially seeing some of the dialogue between staff would make the person feel more confident about the overall decision. Does that make sense? Sometimes it can feel like it's one person making the decision when you only see one name.

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
whats wrong with fighting?

Alpha - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
Honesty is a two way street. It can be hard to discard old feelings and habits

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
@Alpha Oh no doubt. I just can't matc some of the history the greybeards can bring to bear!

Feco - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
I prefer my fighting with bone swordz.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
@Tregil I understand your point. I don't agree with it.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
@Adhira So you're saying you won't show any sort of argument between player/staff because you believe players (who aren't asking for an unveiling) will feel threatened about their own disagreements being unveiled at some point?

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:32 PM
Well. What I suggest is creating a mechanism, @Adhira. That would allow a stream lining of this.   Gain permission from everyone involved.   Please understand. With current's policy that @Nergal is voicing, the issues remain and they are a sickness that doesnt go away.   If you were to have a few such public conversations with assurances from everyone involved that they are willing to have it public. You will be closer to curing it.

bahliker - Yesterday at 8:33 PM
@Feco stick with clubs.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:33 PM
More PK talk please?

RabidMuffins - Yesterday at 8:33 PM
@staff In a rough estimate - how long do you think the reply time is to -emails- to staff?

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:33 PM
Yeah let's talk about stats. What's your favorite? Mine is "the bee's knees."

bahliker - Yesterday at 8:33 PM
Can we re-open #general for unproductive peanut gallery chatter?

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:33 PM
It may be uncomfortable, but just as in any relationship, communication is key.  Let people ask their questions and get answers.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
The bee's knees is awesome :smiley:

Nathvaan - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
@tiptoe I can tell you that nearly every request has multiple notes on it by multiple staff members.  The exceptions are the ones you would expect, change description for instance.  Don't really need a discussion about that kind of thing.

ChrisCoul - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
This is making me want to PK

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
It's not uncomfortable, it's just not relevant.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
We aren't going to "expose" players, even at their own request. Sorry.

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
And yeah, let's Make General Chat Great Again guys

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
@Nergal r u a cop

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
Oh absolutely Kismet. But when the answer is no, and the person doesn't accept no for an answer - you end up with a back and forth that goes nowhere other than to annoy everyone else.

Lairos - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
I would like to see more things go up on a timeline so newer players can see more things going on. Perhaps a world timeline and even a more direct timeline to like Allanak itself or even just directly at the clan level. For instance, a new noble walks in and they can see all the recent stuff thats been happening and not be oblivious

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
Come PK me! My character is available for PK from anyone :smiley:

Feco - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
Hey, @staff, what's the coolest PK you ever saw?  Leave the specific details out, of course.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
@BadSkeelz No but I work in the criminal justice system

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:34 PM
I disagree @Miradus, if people have concerns about the game, and there is a chance to address it with staff in a public forum, then it is relevant.  How is it not?

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:35 PM
cool, thank you

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:35 PM
@Nathvaan Do you think there's a possibility of making some of those additional comments available to players? I think that might help some of the distrust that some people might have in regards to final decisions. I don't know if this is in line with @Tregil discussion, but it might be something that could help.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:35 PM

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:35 PM
I have no problem with people asking questions. At some point though, that's my answer. I don't have a different one for you.

Miradus - Yesterday at 8:35 PM
Yeah. I guess if the majority of people want to rehash the bardlyone incident then it's relevant. I just .. meh ... this is becoming the forum all over again.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:36 PM
@Adhira Do you have a jazzy smoker's voice? Must know. #fanboy

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:36 PM
In my opinion, that particular incident muddied the waters of the good work that thread was doing, but, hey, people want to talk about it.

Yam - Yesterday at 8:36 PM
Eh, I'm not trying to rehash Bardlyone. Good riddance.

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:36 PM
Adhira speaks in dulcet-toned english

Nathvaan - Yesterday at 8:36 PM
@tiptoe Hmm, I can't think of any programattic way to make them available (easily).  We'll discuss it though.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:36 PM
@Proliferance currently yes, as I have a cold.

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:37 PM
@Adhira go eat those hotwings agian, pretty sure those'll clear anything out

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:37 PM
Or wasabi
Mmmm

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:37 PM
@BadSkeelz But you see, I am in my native home, instead I am eating PIES.

bahliker - Yesterday at 8:37 PM
@Nathvaan including a summary in response (this was mentioned this was said) might be a good controllable way. Just more typing  .

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:37 PM
Is Kurac working on producing spice-vape pens?

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:37 PM
baked goods never did anything for my nasal tract =/

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:38 PM
V N

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:38 PM
Because I'd like to play, Miradus :). But that incident was Staff=many. Bardlyone=One. And Unless playerbase stood together, then regardless of whether or not bardlyone is right and staff is wrong. Bardlyone is still the one suffering. The privacy policy while understandable, only enables this inherently wrong state of affairs.  Never thought my IRL principles would come to Arm, but I literally couldnt allow myself for such situation to happen. This is my attempt, but it's failing :smiley:

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:38 PM
vape naysh yall

Yam - Yesterday at 8:38 PM
I do dislike the overly professional veneer that staff have felt the need to adopt. I think it's counter-productive to genuine communication and Armageddony game playing.

brytta.leofa - Yesterday at 8:38 PM
"[Naathvan, Nyr, and Nechomadus comtributed to this request resolution.]"

ChrisCoul - Yesterday at 8:38 PM
Papa blesses you

Yam - Yesterday at 8:38 PM
When Nergals says staff wont embarrass another player
I just don't believe him. I don't necessarily think it's bad if staff embarrass another Bardlyone

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:39 PM
Will Armageddon.org sue me if I make Kemen, Agross, Krentakh, etc flavoured vape juice :smile:

oryx - Yesterday at 8:39 PM
@Yam  I think it's totally bad if the staff embarasses Bardlyone. I wouldn't be able to respect us.

Nathvaan - Yesterday at 8:39 PM
Oh, a list of who commented not the comments themselves.  I see where you are going with that.  Yeah, we'll discuss it, thanks for the idea.

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:39 PM
I think some players do a good enough job embarassing themselves, Yam, they don't need help from the staff.

Yam - Yesterday at 8:39 PM
Basically

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:39 PM
I don't think it's good to punch below the belt just to feed the curiosities of others. That's not professionalism, just respect for other people

Yam - Yesterday at 8:40 PM
But 99% of the players who have had issues with staff
aren't on the Bardlyone level

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:40 PM
@Tiptoe sometimes we're going to reach conclusions  and decisions that people will not like.  We can't open all of them up to public debate. We hope that you guys will be understanding of that.

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:40 PM
Yam isn't embarassing. He used to be shirtless and use a fake russian accent.:heart_eyes:

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:40 PM
Fake?

Yam - Yesterday at 8:40 PM
wow lets not dig up the past

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:40 PM
Oh. I had issues with staff. I just ignored that particular staffer til they stopped being staff. Problem solved, I didn't have to do anything about it.

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:41 PM
I think the minute we start treating a player as lower than another in a public forum, is the minute we stop having fair, moderated discussion

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:41 PM
@Yam Are you FPS Russia?

oryx - Yesterday at 8:41 PM
One time, want to hear a story? One time I had this problem with this one staffer - so frustrating...

Nathvaan - Yesterday at 8:41 PM
@oryx at band camp?

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:41 PM
Totally band camp.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:41 PM
Is there a flute involved?

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 8:41 PM
I have a question guys. Website updates seem to be happening. Will the Chronology page get some love soon? Like, recent happenings in the Tablelands and Allanak that were big, but don't seem to have made it there? What about pages transferred from the old site to the new one regarding plants?

oryx - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
and I was at a tiny player meeting, well after the fact, sort've whining about it to this chick,

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
@oryx pls i thought we were cool now
😿1

oryx - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
only to find out she was in fact that staffer. Yes she was.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
Yeah, I believe in being respectful and using my manners. I don't really think you want us not to do that. I'm also preeeeety sure none of you want to be my 'friend'. So if it feels like we're too 'professional' and not 'friends', I'm ok with that.

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
@Nergal I'll buy that, but how do you stop your personal feelings from being injected into that?  And even if staff is a consensus, what if someone just annoys all of staff?

oryx - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
-sigh-

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
@Renenutet I totally understand that. I think my personal issues, and maybe this is mirrored in other people as well, is that in the past it felt like many decisions were made by one staff member. I think the option of either seeing comments from staff, or names of staff members involved in the decision could help garner a greater feeling of trust and an understanding that it's not a monarchy, but something of a democracy

Yam - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
@Nergal I think it's worse to pretend that Armageddon currently has fair, moderated discussion. There are still major biases that, as one of the snowflakes who hasn't ever had a problem with staff, I see.

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
Games played IN game and stuff like that? Things that players are doing that move and shake the world? Keeping things fresh?

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:42 PM
@oryx :smile:

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:43 PM
@Kismet By getting multiple staff to contribute to a discussion, typically

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:43 PM
@oryx that's why I don't have any active players on my buddy list anymore.
I deleted the whole damned list, years ago.

oryx - Yesterday at 8:43 PM
she was a really nice person, it turned out, and we ended up becoming great friends!
to this day - ten years later

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:43 PM
@Yam No one said what we have is perfect, but I think we've come leaps and bounds in terms of eliminating favoritism and the opposite of that (scapegoating I guess)

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:44 PM
If I didn't have players or staff on my buddy list I wouldn't have a buddy list @Lizzie

oryx - Yesterday at 8:44 PM
i still get to go out and visit with her and her family...there's no moral here, by the way. this is just one of those folksy old person stories

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:44 PM
Bushranger you're not on my buddy list.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:44 PM
@tiptoe I understand what you're saying. I encourage you to put it behind us. Let's move forward. I'm not promising the future will be perfect. People aren't perfect. But we can't fix the past.  We can look forward.

oryx - Yesterday at 8:44 PM
the sound of oryx's rocking chair fills the twilight silence

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:44 PM
I feel hurt now.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:44 PM
You deleted me!
Years ago :smile:

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
I did?

Sprinkles - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
I quit playing over comments from staff. I won't be the only one.

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
I didn't mean to. Sorry.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
No, it was just reference to your comment.

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
I got nasty comments from staff Sprinkles, but my enjoyment of the game trumps any nasty comments a staffer would say about me.
So I played in spite of'em.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
@Renenutet     Problem is. What do we really expect in the future? As far as Staff Trust goes. I had 'absolute' trust in staff less then ... half a year ago? It took a player to break rules and post a log to break it.

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
@oryx so are you saying we should tell people when we think "they" are annoying?

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
@MÔrudus :wave:

Sprinkles - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
yeah I did that for long enough @Lizzie

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
@BadSkeelz - piss off.

Yam - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
@Nergal I really don't think favoritism was what drove players away. I think it's fundamentally a communication problem.

MÔrudus - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
then decided it wasn't worth it

oryx - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
@BadSkeelz i already said there was no moral

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
I outlived the staffer.

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
(clears throat) I.. er.. suppose that question time is over?

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
I'm still a little puzzled about 'not wanting to be Adhira's friends.   Why wouldnt we want to be Adhira's friends? I'd invite you into my back room with a lockable door anytime, Adhira.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
:no_mouth:

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
So many sprinkles

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:46 PM
@oryx i missed that, was AFK. @Adhira I actually meant to leave 20 minutes ago but this got interesting

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
Is that a knife in your pocket or...

oryx - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
yeah. i quite seriously want to be Adhira's friend. sign me up!

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
:knife: :dagger:
armageddon3

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
@Rathustra  (grins)

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
It's a sprinkly chatroom.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
Me too!

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
@Yam I get that you think that, yes. I'm not sure where you're going with it though.

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
@Tregil I think you can expect that the future will not be perfect. You're dealing with people. People aren't perfect. I think also... at the risk of alienating you here, I think sometimes people need to examine their own part in what's gone wrong.

Case - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
there I'll make it easier

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
Sprinkles are such a small part of a doughnut yet add so much.

ChrisCoul - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
Character development

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
@Adhira #stillafanboy

RabidMuffins - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
That's deep, @Rathustra

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
So, yeah, all I can tell you is we like our players. We want you to show up, play, enjoy and be happy.

Ooze - Yesterday at 8:47 PM
Characters developing all over
:smile:

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
Ok, to clarify. I don't staff the game to make friends. I'm sorry if the professional veneer is offputting, But it's a tool that we use. I treat working on the game as a real responsibility, like I treat my real life work. I give it that same respect, I try to give players the same respect I give my customer.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
Mmmm sprinkles.
Donuts

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
If you guys want to show up, play, be happy we can make it work in spite of humanity and imperfection.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
@Renenutet   Can you elaborate? I dont understand.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
Man I am so fat!@

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
As for the past, I can't do a thing about that.

Proliferance - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
@staff Thanks for the fun; I gotta head off to work. There's young and dumb people needing their Rum N Cokes.

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
@Proliferance :wave:

Case - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
It's good there's been a meeting though
  

Nergal

  • Producer
  • Posts: 757
Re: May 2017 Player/Staff Meeting - General Discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2017, 08:43:46 AM »
Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:49 PM
!vote

ChrisCoul - Yesterday at 8:49 PM
I'm going over to general gg

AmosBOT - Yesterday at 8:49 PM
Vote on TopMudSites
Vote now on TMS!
Vote on TheMudConnector
Vote now on TMC!

armageddon5

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:49 PM
gg wp

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
gg ez

oryx - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
aw Sprinkles, I don't want you to be gone.

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
They're Case now!

Case - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
I always was Case! :smiley:

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
oh god now im confused

oryx - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
well that's a different person

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
I don't understand.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
A nut case :smiley:  (sorry, was begging for it)

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
I didn't know we had our own emoji!

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
If that's the case, then I don't understand

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:50 PM
Everyone change their name to sprinkles

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
What's the alt-keyboard combo for it?

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
and GO

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
yeah, who was case previously in this discussion?

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
::armageddon::
hm

WithSprinkles - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
(blinks) Good lord..

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
I was

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
lol

MÔrudus - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
Sprinkles, not WithSprinkles

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
Question for the players: What makes a good leader PC?

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
ok @curling
you're funny

MÔrudus - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
I haven't said much

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
@MÔrudus shoulda used Nerds

Yam - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
@Bushranger High stun.

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
::armageddon::

Mirudus - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
it's a custom emote guys

MÔrudus - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
Unlike half the pbase, I don't eat nerds

Mirudus - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
you don't have the magic touch

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
Yeah, it's from another discord.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
I don't have this.

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
Well. I tried

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:51 PM
So there

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
I want it. I want it for facebook and twitter too.

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
@MÔrudus you've not said much?

Tregil - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
Take care everyone!

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
@MÔrudus Does that mean that you are a...
@MÔrudus :briefcase:

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
case closed.

MÔrudus - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
yes

oryx - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
open and shut case?

Lizzie - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
open and shut case.

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
"...."

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
I was thinking Brief-case

oryx - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
hahahahahahaha

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
How long have you been independent staff @Rathustra ?

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
welp

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
Better Case the bank!

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
I feel like it's a long long time

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
it's been fun, thanks for the chat

Case - Yesterday at 8:52 PM
I mean yeah I'll post in stupid threads about communism to try drag out the racism and other hilarious views

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:53 PM
Couple of weeks.

MÔrudus - Yesterday at 8:53 PM
but been gone a while

Kismet - Yesterday at 8:53 PM
certainly a lot of food for thought

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:53 PM
@tiptoe Maybe just under a year. I switched back after I stepped down from being a Producer.

MÔrudus - Yesterday at 8:53 PM
just wanted to see how the meeting would go

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:53 PM
No weeks!

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:53 PM
Weird, I felt like it was longer than that

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
Rath - that makes it about 3 months.

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
Whaaat
Ok well

oryx - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
by my count too, but I wasn't going to say anything

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
Time goes VERY slowly when you're dealing with indies

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
I came back after Xmas.

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
haha

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
@Rathustra did you produce any gold recurds while you were a producer?

RabidMuffins - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
I read that as undies at first
>>

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
@tiptoe I mean, didn't you just tell me he's been your staff forever?

Renenutet - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
I'd like to say it went well, but I guess you guys will have to make up your own minds on that front.

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
But to be fair I was helping Xalle out for a while before I took it over completely.

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
Apparently I was wrong

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:54 PM
@Bushranger No, just recordings of cats singing christmas songs.
:saxophone:

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:55 PM
Jingle Meows was awesome!

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:56 PM
Opinions -should I hold a mini player staff meeting for off peak people, or did off peak peope all make it to here.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:56 PM
I made it here :smiley:

Mirudus - Yesterday at 8:56 PM
I made it during work but I would be able to participate in an offpeak one, rather than just read.

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:56 PM
@Mirudus Imposter Miradus.

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:56 PM
I think an offpeak one would be a great idea

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:56 PM
I dont think anyone would say no to more staff meetings
players, anyway

Mirudus - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
It never hurts to have more input from other players, especially those who feel that they might be 'skipped over' more likely than peak players.

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
And I say that as an on peak person.  Because I feel my opinion has real weight in their lives.

Bushranger - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
I could ask more questions!

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
@Miradus @Mirudus
now kiss

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
FIGHT!

Yam - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
I think more off the cuff staff communication

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
No no, let's see where this kiss thing goes.

Yam - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
is always good

Rathustra - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
:smile_cat:

Yam - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
let's all go to denny's

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
I don't think we have Dennys here. Village Inn maybe?

Feco - Yesterday at 8:57 PM
You mean Waffle House?

Yam - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
NO I MEAN DENNYS

Nergal - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
Well that's what this Discord is for @Yam . Multiple staff have been on this server since it came up. Granted, it hasn't been long, but I don't see that changing any time soon

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
YAM, FLY HERE AND WE WILL GOTO VILLAGE INN

Feco - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
No you don't.

tiptoe - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
The discord channel totally made me want to play more
just FYI

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
I'd rather go to a bar.

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
It has helped, yeah.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
I need alcohol.

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
Ew. Bars.

Feco - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
That's the best part apart waffle house.  You take a flask!

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
We should all gather in Seattle, at the AFK Tavern

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
I"m already three buffalo sweats deep. I'm good. Dennys sounds better.

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
They make dwarven waffles.

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:58 PM
I went to Seattle, it ws raining,

Yam - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
Come in the Summer

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
It's seattle.

Mirudus - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
Come to Chicago.

Yam - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
dont tell anyone but it's actually sunny

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
no way

Mirudus - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
I'm pretty sure I still owe you some Scotch.

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
@Adhira come back and ill buy you a beer that has ghost chilis in it or whatever insane thing they were doing at that place

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
omg

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
#Truefacts "Rain" is just a short slang version of the word "Seattle"

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
that sounds horrific

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
No, Mirudus. You come here. It's like a six hour jaunt in your car.

BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
swear it was on the menu

Adhira - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
I think you are right.

Adhira - Yesterday at 9:00 PM
I said one day I'd organise some Northern California thing
But I guess I lied.
BadSkeelz - Yesterday at 9:00 PM[/b]
thats why i dont promise anyhting
ever
also i dont od anything so im right either way

Mirudus - Yesterday at 9:00 PM
^ story of my life

Adhira - Yesterday at 9:01 PM
I like this life philosophy.

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 9:01 PM
hums Story of my Life to himself

Mirudus - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
And then suddenly it's all "you never do anything" and "I want a divorce" and "I'm leaving you for a bad copy of you who is in the Air Force" and


mansa - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
I'm breaking up with you, Mirudus

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
Dude, she was a terrible wife
You're better off single.

Yam - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
Miridus I poisoned your entire family and took all the espers

Mirudus - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
you can't, we're facebook official mansa

Yam - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
can we get a Miridus

Mirudus - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
that'

Yam - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
and a miredus

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
Hai

Mirudus - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
that's how everyone misspelled it on SoI

mansa - Yesterday at 9:02 PM
I'm going to stop reading this channel

Mirudus - Yesterday at 9:03 PM
same, peace

th3KAISER - Yesterday at 9:03 PM
Bye Mansa.

mansa - Yesterday at 9:03 PM
stop posting

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 9:03 PM
no u

mansa - Yesterday at 9:03 PM
i hate notifications
i'm going to general

Malifaxis - Yesterday at 9:03 PM
yeah they suck

tiptoe - Yesterday at 9:03 PM
Fine. Bai

Nergal - Yesterday at 9:07 PM
Alright. Closing this up now. I, for one, will still be over at #general. Thanks for attending!