The OOC game is driving me away.

[Talkofthetown]

It's interesting how many people are arguing for ignoring the OOC game. I'm not sure what that will do at this point. I have already said I don't participate in it, I only hear about it. I don't think my knowledge of what goes on is something that can just be undone. It's hard to forget what players have already done, that I didn't even solicit. They just decided to bother someone. If I suddenly decide to stop hearing about it and block the last three or four friends I've made in Arm in 10 years, it's too late at this point. I already know that it happens.

There's also some victim blaming in that logic, that I should just stop being bothered that people are breaking the rules to gossip about and hurt my character and possibly other players' characters. Like I said, I don't break the rules. People I'm friends with talk to people who do, and apparently there's plenty of them.

I'm curious why so few have suggested reporting it. I could probably go back into logs and report a bunch of incidents, but they are old at this point. The issue is there's probably no way to link those incidents to game accounts that I know of.

[Riev]

I didn't suggest reporting it, because you claimed in your original posts that "it wouldn't do you any good" and "they probably wouldn't find anyone anyway". You defeated the choice before it was ever made, why would I make it again?

And for my part, I suggest not paying attention to the OOC because that's the world we live in now. If someone HAS your AIM, or your email address, they CAN send you shit anonymously and troll you. People get threated to be doxxed for having differing opinions about online games.

Since this hasn't happened to me, virtually any advice I have is just going to be ignored, regardless. However, just play the damned game. If you play it in such a way that ANYONE gets annoyed or bothered by how you do it, for ANY reason other than you can't spell, or BOGRE-afk in the middle of important RPTs all day, fuck 'em.

So what if you KNOW it happens? Its going to happen to someone else, and someone else, and someone else, because some people would rather see the game crash and burn than admit they enjoy it and want to play it.

[Malken]

If you think this doesn't happen in other games, you're going to have a bad time.

Now that you know it happens/happened/will probably happen again, continue to play Arm or don't, it's your choice really.

If you want my own personal opinion, I find that most Arm players I've spoken with OOCly are batshit crazy in one way or another, so I don't bother with OOC friendships anymore (I hope this isn't seen as trolling, it's just my personal opinion/experience)

[Nergal]

If I find people breaking rules #6 or #7, they get punished in accordance with the rules. Typically this means karma reduction and/or a temporary ban on the first occurrence, and a permanent ban on the second occurrence. Indeed, all of the players I've banned during my tenure as producer (not that there were a lot of them, mind you) were banned for breaking rules #6 or #7, or both.

Players who report rule-breaking earn staff trust and do a service toward helping keep the game fair. Players who are aware of rule-breaking and do not report it are, in my opinion, complicit in the behavior. As a player, it is best for you to follow the rules and report rule breaches by others. That is the only way we can maintain the collaborative storytelling environment mentioned in the OP.

That's about all I have to say on the subject. I wouldn't ask anyone to play the game if they're not having fun. But I would ask players to pitch in and help clean up the game if it is dirty.

[Dar]

This thread is making me want to oocly gossip. What is IsFridays reputation?

I've read the Jcarters forums awhile ago. I actually thought its deserted,  but I guess it lingers on. One thing I observed about "I hate uuu" posts there, is that most veteran grudgemongers there aren't even playing. Either due to banning, or whatever. They rekindle each others hate, shit post, but dont actually play. Continously asking for the latest dish on some plot. Looking in through the crack between the windows drapery.

My point is that their opinions and shit posting mean squat. They can shit talk about you, your character,  or whatever else, it means nothing. 

Sometimes shit happens. I hope to god that when some dude pmed you with a promise to kill you,  your next act was copy pasting this into a request tool. And if they succeeded, then they are identified and are probably banned by now.

But overall, I'm sorry to 'victim blame', but the idea of ignoring it is basically the 'only' real course of action. If you have concrete threat then report it. But if you are browsing Jcarters forums for mentions of your name,  then just don't. 

If every person that did something to be commented about on Internet,  took these comments serious,  nobody would get anything done.

[Fathi]

It's interesting how many people are arguing for ignoring the OOC game. I'm not sure what that will do at this point. I have already said I don't participate in it, I only hear about it. I don't think my knowledge of what goes on is something that can just be undone. It's hard to forget what players have already done, that I didn't even solicit. They just decided to bother someone. If I suddenly decide to stop hearing about it and block the last three or four friends I've made in Arm in 10 years, it's too late at this point. I already know that it happens.

There's also some victim blaming in that logic, that I should just stop being bothered that people are breaking the rules to gossip about and hurt my character and possibly other players' characters. Like I said, I don't break the rules. People I'm friends with talk to people who do, and apparently there's plenty of them.

It's not victim blaming so much as understanding from experience that other people aren't going to change their behaviour without being prompted to. You seemed to have already committed to not reporting any of this stuff to staff based on your OP, and if you don't report it, then why would the behaviour change? At that point your own response is all you have.

You don't need to block people. There's a happy medium between rule-breaking collusion and being a total recluse from the social aspect of the game.

There's a reason why I don't have any contact information on my GDB profile. The players I'm friends with already have me on Facebook or see me IRL enough to know how to find me, and I don't want any random to be able to stick his nose in my business.

Nobody has my email address. And regarding said friends on Facebook etc., it's remarkably easy to just drop a, "hey, let's not talk about that" if someone asks you a question that'd be rule-breaking or just makes you uncomfortable. And generally, if they're a nice and respectful person, after a time or two of that, they won't bring it up again. I can't remember the last time this was an issue for me personally because I am pretty blunt about what I will talk about vs what I will not. People respect that. If these people are your friends, they will respect you.

Like any other social situation, you have to define boundaries. Then, if people push up against those boundaries, you know they are not good people to be talking to. Talk to people who respect your boundaries. This is good advice for any aspect of life.

[wizturbo]

Since I love analogies, I would equate this to safe sex.  Abstinence is the only surefire way to protect yourself from risk, but that's definitely not the norm for people.  For those who want to socialize with other players, each 'partner' comes with some level of risk.   You can drastically mitigate those risks by using protection, and choosing 'partners' that don't seem like they might have been copulating with dirty 'rinth rats.   From the sound of it, OP's problem is they use protection but some of their friends are engaged in high risk behaviors if they're posting logs of stuff they shouldn't be seeing to begin with.  It's a major warning sign if they're saying they've seen something like that to me, even if they're coming to warn you about some kind of misconduct against you. 

To use another analogy (2 for 2 here) it's like your neighbor coming over and showing you surveillance photos of your bedroom to point out someone broke in and stole your watch...  As much as you might like to know about the crime, the fact that your neighbor has surveillance photos is concerning because there are very few harmless reasons I can think of as to why they'd have those.

Anyway, I don't know who your friends are, or any details beyond what you've already posted, but if you wrap up your virtual dingdong and are still catching virtual STD's you might consider abstinence.  That's what I would do.   And unlike abstaining from sex, I think there's a lot to be said that abstaining from socializing with other players is actually more fun and exciting.  It's a lot easier to murder, betray, love, hire or ignore someone when you have zero RL connection to them. 

[SuchDragonWow]

People want to kill your character, congratulations, you've won the game!  I don't know how well this works for you, but I work in a competitive field that measures success by reputation.  Fairly often I have people talking about me in order to sabotage my career.  Some things I've learned:

1) Don't bite.  One way you let them win is by letting it upset you and showing that it does upset you.  Whatever your style may be, laugh it off, shrug it off, or give them a stone face, but the important thing is to not show a bully you're taking damage.

2) You don't need to retaliate.  This only brings you down to their level, and if they do win, well hey, it sucks, but you have your dignity.

3) Be better.  The big way you beat someone trying to tear you down is just to be better and continue to be better.  I've had people try to talk about me behind my back, but the funny thing to me is that those people are either gone now or fading into the background.  Let your work (or play, in this case) speak for itself.

4) Tell your side of the story.  In your instance, make sure the powers that be are aware of what's going on.  What do you have to lose?

I hope this helps, I've been dealing with haters since the dawn of hate, and it only brought me down when I let it.

[WarriorPoet]

No one plays the OOC game with me. I tried to oocly set up mudsexxx a time or two but Malifaxis wouldn't stop emoting about the vile stench of his leather-clad desert crotch and I remained totally flaccid. Turned me off of ooc friendships and coordination forever.

[Synthesis]

Etc.

[Orin]

Oh hey I think I've seen that Batdude before at the Solstice parade.  It could have been some other masked buff guy though.

[Is Friday]

This thread is making me want to oocly gossip. What is IsFridays reputation?

lol.

It varies depending on what the best joke is at the moment.

[Sedora]

All this awesome.

You win the correlation game in this thread. That's a hilarious but amazingly perfect way to describe the situation really. Well done for putting it out that way. I couldn't figure out a way to say "If you have friends telling you that people are saying things, maybe you need to check your friends, cause its really the same sorta problem."

As far as Nergal's comment about complicit behavior: We can get staff involved in these sorts of problems easily enough I guess, but whose going to go to staff with "I know this is happening but I heard about it OOC, can you help me?" Cause in situations like that, you stand to get in more trouble than whoever is harassing you, even if you share literally zero with other players you know OOCly. Plus gossip through the outside pipeline isn't as tangible as stuff they can search logs for (because staff can't validate it and have no reason to trust it as truth), which means you risk getting in trouble yourself even though you're a victim, and the likelihood of it going anywhere is slim. So you put yourself under the microscope for no reason when you can achieve a similar level of peace by simply blocking people like that out of your life.

[manipura]

All this awesome.

You win the correlation game in this thread. That's a hilarious but amazingly perfect way to describe the situation really. Well done for putting it out that way. I couldn't figure out a way to say "If you have friends telling you that people are saying things, maybe you need to check your friends, cause its really the same sorta problem."

Same here.  wizturbo explained my thoughts quite nicely though.

[Malifaxis]

No one plays the OOC game with me. I tried to oocly set up mudsexxx a time or two but Malifaxis wouldn't stop emoting about the vile stench of his leather-clad desert crotch and I remained totally flaccid. Turned me off of ooc friendships and coordination forever.

.... you swore you'd never mention that, you monster!

[Synthesis]

The last time I talked to another player outside the GDB was...2012, according to my AIM logs.

I don't feel like I've missed out on anything, in particular.  Just stop talking to people about the game outside the GDB.  If your acquaintances can't respect that...fuck 'em.

[ghanima]

I'm curious why so few have suggested reporting it. I could probably go back into logs and report a bunch of incidents, but they are old at this point. The issue is there's probably no way to link those incidents to game accounts that I know of.

No offense or anything but why do you need other people to suggest it first? If that's what you want to do, do it. Personally, I think there's a little too much talk of reporting people on these boards that it creates a negative atmosphere. It almost feels the longer a thread becomes, the greater the chance of someone recommending reporting another player. And even if they are appropriate examples, the constant talking about isn't something I find helpful. So if no one has brought it up so far in this thread, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Regarding the rest of the topic, it's not for everyone and I don't keep this practice at all times myself but I find Arm to be the most real to me and the most visceral when I have zero ooc contact with any other players. It's totally understandable that most people want to talk about the game with others from time to time, so I'm hardly bringing this up to say that severing all ooc contact is what we should do. But I really do believe if you go for even one week of not communicating with anyone outside the game, you'll have a different feel about your experience and the other characters that you meet. You're also less likely to be aware of things like other players conspiring against you ooc or talking about you on some other forum. And since there's not much you can do about it, you might as well stay as ignorant as you can of it and just enjoy the game.

[Reiloth]

I've made plenty of friends through OOC contact in the game. But there are times where I cutoff, or say i'm taking a break, or otherwise abstain from talking with them about the game. I think wizturbo is correct in saying the only way to completely separate IC from OOC is to remove the possibility of OOC interaction. I've had plots ruined to me unsolicited, i've had people tell me they died on a hunt and where their body is so I can loot it. I've had the whole gamut, and every time someone crosses the boundary I set, I block them and move on.

I've had plenty of people tell me that I should store, or insinuate it through thinly veiled IG jargon. But I think you need a certain confidence in yourself to play this game, and go through the motions of acting as the actor. We're all here to have fun. It's unfortunate that there's people out there who would delight in nothing more than to make your day miserable OOCly. But that's nothing new, it's part of living in this world. I honestly wouldn't waste the time reporting someone to Staff, because i'm not vindictive or vengeful in that way. If they sexually harassed me or otherwise made me uncomfortable in that way (getting an email telling me to store, for instance), I would surely report them for breaking rules. But for being mean, or otherwise crossing OOC boundaries...Eh. I just block'm and move on.

[Refugee]

Most people will stop telling you stuff if you tell them you don't want to know it.  Those that won't respect your wishes in this are not your friends.  Get rid of them like pulling off a tick.

[SuchDragonWow]

Send this to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPBPa2BQFRM

[Akaramu]

Don't let anyone know who you play.

Use dummy GDB accounts for clans / announcement posts.

[Raptor_Dan]

Don't let anyone know who you play.

Use dummy GDB accounts for clans / announcement posts.

Not just GDB accounts, if you're on some kind of messenger (this is the worst, best advice, don't touch messengers for anything arm-related, otherwise...) start making complete and filled out personalities. Try something average, like Chalton_Chad, or DungBeetle_Gently, and give them each a gdb profile, a messenger, and an email. Then, introduce your friends to these guys, but have them each claim to be playing two or three different people on their own extra accounts.

THEN... slowly manipulate your so-called friends into assassinating Chad or Gently IG char because of OOC reasons, all the while feeding your so-called friends a bunch of disinformation through all your various profiles regarding Armaggedon. Have Chad jump off a two story building out of grief for what's going on in the game, chastise Gently and your so-called friends for being manipulative jerks, then cry for three days because it was actually you, who jumped off the building, and the line between reality has become very unclear for you. Store all chars. Store all personalities, and try to fit them into one awesome lump of crazy with a cool name like Raptor_Alfonze, or Raptor_Charleston_Chew.

If this sounds too tedious, just tell someone on staff you think X and Y are collaborating OOCly, because if they are, and you know about it, it's affecting My game, too. It doesn't have to go any further than that.


I'll tell you the rest on AIM, later.

[Nergal]

I'm going to go ahead and reluctantly lock this thread after I get a last word in. Annoying, I know, but this is the official staff position and I would rather not have it overrun by less useful advice.

That said: ignoring OOC chatter is good advice, but not good enough alone. Alone, it's simply a way to let people who use OOC unfairly to continue to do so without your knowledge. It's extremely advantageous to people who engage in improper OOC communication because you're taking yourself out as a possible leak to staff and making the OOC game stronger. The real game is ruined by unfair OOC players even more easily if you ignore it without reporting it.

So if you do know about it, it's your duty to the game to report it. You will not get in trouble for reporting something, even if you accidentally or purposefully implicate yourself. As I said, you will earn the trust of staff and help the game as a whole. You could possibly get in trouble if you do not report someone, if that someone (or somebody else) goes on to report you first. We take great care to protect the identity of someone who reports something to staff, to the extent that we only do as much as we can without revealing the complainant, as we understand that will make OOC friendships awkward. We also take great care to determine the veracity of whatever evidence we get as well as its source.

The sad truth is that more of staff's time and resources have been nudged into revealing and shutting down OOC behavior. It's not an inordinate amount, but it's certainly more than it was a few years ago. We're not going to let it distract us from other things we're doing to make the game great.

Ultimately, it is in your best interest as well as in the game's best interest to shut down OOC gossip and coordination by reporting it, with evidence, and then ignoring it if necessary.