3/21/16 Update Discussion Thread

[little chicken woman]

Touched get spells.

[Jihelu]

Touched get spells.

It isn't a major complaint but I wish staff would straight forward post stuff sometimes.

Instead of "Heres some complicated explanation that uses the word cantrip four times" they could go "They get a few spells and shit"

[RogueGunslinger]

Re: Touched Subguilds.

One motivation behind making these subguilds were to offer a 'third road' between playing a magicker and playing a mundane. Another was to offer a route into our magick theme for players.

They offer a selection of spells and a selection of mundane abilities that the touched's more subtle elemental connection lets them utilize through cantrips - perceived or otherwise. So a stone touched PC might find that they have an uncanny ability to know what stones are in a given rock pile or a wind touched PC tends to find the wind is more forgiving to them.

[BadSkeelz]

I think I'll give one a go on my next PC just to see.

Name: Dayman
Race Human
Guild: Warrior
Subguild: Krathi-touched
Objective: Fight the Nightman, master karate, friendship

[Asmoth]

With regard to this update, not because I really care or are in a position to care about who is what.

I find myself oocly wondering everytime I see a krath, fiery, flame, red haired person if they are a secret Krathi...

I am guessing this will pass, but my curiosity is driving me insane heh.

[LauraMars]

I think I'll give one a go on my next PC just to see.

Name: Dayman
Race Human
Guild: Warrior
Subguild: Krathi-touched
Objective: Fight the Nightman, master karate, friendship

I laughed

[Taven]

So I've had some time to think about the changes. I'll touch on my thoughts only briefly, since we already have 20 pages on the issue already.

I miss the idea of full elemental guilds. I am also pretty disappointed that Elkros, Drov, and most especially Nilaz are going away from the realm of PCs. I'm looking at it from a flavor and setting perspective, how it added to the overall understanding and exploration of magick, the RP it enabled and enhanced, first and foremost.

That said, I also think that this could be an interesting change.

Firstly, that it does give a character more of a basis in the mundane. They have a lot longer to develop as a character without magick, they can actually get to be really good at their mundane selves... That gives a more solid IC basis to RP out the change when they discover what they are. I like that.

Secondly, I think it could lead to interesting interactions and possibilities. If you want X, Y, and Z, you now have to find three different people. Utilizing magicks became more difficult. I also think there's some potential conflict RP for elements of the same type, but different aspects. It also gives PCs other things to think and reflect on, as to different aspects of the same element. So there's some potential there as well.

Ultimately, I think I'm just going to have to wait and see how these changes play out. I think that if they impact the game negatively, staff will make adjustments as needed. I'm also hoping that perhaps someday we could see the inclusion of the removed elementalists in some way again.

Time will tell.

[evilcabbage]

krath's touch is an actual affliction you get in game comparable to heat sickness in real life.

[nauta]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Krath%27s%20Touch

[Jihelu]

If you tell someone a link dead person is "Krath touched" Or "out of it" and they start pulling up a pitchfork (Trident) and murdering them in the streets, the problem isn't what you said it's that the player is retarded.

Though it did make me chuckle.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I don't know if the following was answered already, so if it was would someone in the know catch me up? (5 pages was enough for me...)

OOC, why did Elkrans, Drovians, and Nilazis get axed? Are they going to get the same subguild treatment eventually?

IC, do they still exist as VNPCs? Or are we supposed to draw our own conclusions about why the "tea cup is orbiting pluto" on whether or not they exist, or why they're never around anymore?

[Rathustra]

I don't know if the following was answered already, so if it was would someone in the know catch me up? (5 pages was enough for me...)

OOC, why did Elkrans, Drovians, and Nilazis get axed? Are they going to get the same subguild treatment eventually?

IC, do they still exist as VNPCs? Or are we supposed to draw our own conclusions about why the "tea cup is orbiting pluto" on whether or not they exist, or why they're never around anymore?

Removal of shadow/lightning/void elementalists:
~ Existing drovians, elkrosians and nilazi will continue to play as normal until they retire or die.
~ New PCs of these elements can no longer be created.

Elementalists touched by the demi-elements of shadow and energy or the pseudo-element of void are no longer open for play. Being the products of previous staff, their place in the game world and spell repertoire was developed piecemeal and usually without oversight, creating guilds with a mishmash of spells.

The efforts of staff and players have hammered these elements into staples of the game world and, with some code adjustments, the spells associated with them will find their way back into play. The elements themselves are not ceasing to exist and nothing about this change involves 'retconning' or destroying the player/staff developed lore surrounding these game aspects.

And:
Nothing has changed IC apart from what your PCs might observe. The temple of drov and elkros still possesses NPCs and VNPCs observable via echoes. PC elkrosians, drovians and nilazi still exist until the last one stores or dies.

[WarriorPoet]

I think I'll give one a go on my next PC just to see.

Name: Dayman
Race Human
Guild: Warrior
Subguild: Krathi-touched
Objective: Fight the Nightman, master karate, friendship

I laughed

I would sign up to play Nightman but DROV IS GOOONE! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!


I guess I will just play Crickett.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Thanks Rath. Guess I missed that in my initial shock and awe reading of the release. So when it says "with some adjustment the spells will find their way back in to play", does that mean they'll eventually become playable subs, or that their spells will be added to the new subs. Eg, tempest whiran gets lightning bolt, corruption vivaduan gets some nilaz, etc? (And no one gets some drove because f those plot killing fers, fingers crossed.)

[Harmless]

I've had a few nights to sleep on it now, and guess what? I still wish the mainguilds weren't removed. I just don't see the reason for it.. if the goal is to make the game less magick-filled.. or more so.. who's to say it'll work for that? If the goal is to focus on magickers as "people.." Then let me reply with this:

I played a rukkian with a subguild that offered every mundane skill I needed. She was called a "mage" by one templar, sure, but to her circle of friends and allies, she was a person. She lived a normal life, which was rather mundane. Most of playing her involved socializing, really, not unlike most of my merchantish roles. It was handy to have a subguild to enhance her abilities enough to get out and about and also interact in more ways within the city. (she had a mundane subguild btw).

So to read this:

This decision was made to move away from magickers as 'elementalists', 'mages' or 'wizards' - characters defined by their magick, who are entirely about their magick. Magickers in Armageddon are people first and this is now properly reflected by their main guild selection.

..It just doesn't fit with my experience. If anything my rukkian was more of a person than all my other characters so far.

That's why I just have to realize that this change is just a nerf that has essentially just disabled magickers greatly. I wouldn't roleplay a magicker any differently as a main-guilded one or a sub-guilded one. They were always "people first" to begin with.

I'll still roll up a sub-guilded mage, and the skillset will be different. I don't think it'll change how my roleplay works, at all. I was never into overly RPing the magickal nature of my PC. Bleh. I knew some who did, and I won't name names, but I thought that RP was pretty boring.


As for how I RPed magick:

If I did RP her magick, I'd just keep it short and sweet. I tried to add a little mystery to it. I mostly roleplayed it as a connection, an emotional one also. I liked to think of Ruk as a presence that constantly affected her. It may have changed her personality, perhaps, but "chicken or egg?" She also saw it as a tool. She'd occasionally want to use her magick to get revenge on someone who had wronged her. In those moments, she boiled with rage. Was this her, or did her mood shake like the ground beneath her?

In a very emotional state, she would throw a cantrip. I have seen this tactic used by.. at least four other magickers. It's a common thing, and it now finally described in the helpfiles.

All of this being said, I have to say I really look forward to making a "touched" subguild. That'd be something I would like to RP. For the sake of survival, though, it would have to be far less frequent. Either that or there's a gem headed my way, with all the social disadvantage that comes with it, but without any real magickal power, at least it seems that way.

So no more fearlessly braving threats that I know my magick can control.

I don't know why we had to lose the option of having a full connection to an element. Rathustra's explanations for what this change is supposed to represent for the overall vision of the game do not appeal to me. They don't fit with my personal experience roleplaying a magicker. I was never told by staff not to RP her this or that way. I usually got a thumbs up. In essence, she was already a person, first, as far as I can tell.

This is the most upsetting loss in the game since I've started playing.

[valeria]

I think it's intended to be a general policy explanation, not a criticism toward the roleplaying of people who have historically played magickers. And it's only one of the several explanations that have been offered (making magic more unpredictable and reflective of the game world, so that not every Krathi is exactly the same, is the one that makes the most sense to me).  I don't think anyone is actually saying that people have only played magickers as skill sets instead of roles.

Anyway, I'm not targeting you specifically Harmless. It's just a sentiment that keeps coming up that seems to have really struck people one way when, from the context of the statement itself, I don't really think it was meant the way that people are taking it.

[Harmless]

making magic more unpredictable and reflective of the game world, so that not every Krathi is exactly the same, is the one that makes the most sense to me

I tried to have her magick be used unpredictably. I tried making her magick subtle. Often she would cast one spell at most in a scene. It might even be the only spellcast for the whole session. On outings, of course, there'd be a few casts, but not many. She'd only use 4-5 spells in her repertoire at a time.

When reading the bolded segment, it implies that the RP of a mainguilded magicker "doesn't reflect the game world." Was that true, given my efforts above? If it is true.. then it is like being told that I failed to roleplay in a way that reflected the gameworld. Not because of my failings as a player but because the guild and spell/skill set didn't allow for it. But I disagree with that also.

The old system already has things to make it a bit unpredictable: branching, spell fails, limited mana pool, difficult crafting system.

So, I just have to disagree with the decision and pretty much all the reasons behind it at this point... don't worry, I'll play, but definitely with a deep sadness that what I used to consider reflective of the game world and realistic has been deemed inappropriate and retconned.

Same sentiments towards entirely removing three elements, even if it's temporary. I just don't see why the reduction here helps.. anything.

[Adhira]

Other staff have already stated this, but I'm going to say it again:  The change was in no way at all reflective of how anyone has played an elementalist in the past. The comments regarding the role of the elementalist and the focus on magick as 'people' first is reflective of how we see the entire guild system. It is nothing to do with any individual or their play.

[whitt]

When reading the bolded segment, it implies that the RP of a mainguilded magicker "doesn't reflect the game world." Was that true, given my efforts above? If it is true.. then it is like being told that I failed to roleplay in a way that reflected the gameworld. Not because of my failings as a player but because the guild and spell/skill set didn't allow for it. But I disagree with that also.

I don't think it was meant to be a reflection on the RP of a mainguilded magicker.  

I think it was meant as an indictment of the coded limits that were placed on the  characters, not by the players, but by the way the code hard-stops at "barely competent" for any skill that a mainguilded magicker had because it was, by definition, only available at sub-guild levels.  This is where "not reflective of the game world" comes in.  Suppose the player chose to play as an unmanifested magicker.  Why couldn't they progress as a warrior?  Because their guild choice unrealistically limited that.

I'm not sure I love the solution that came out.  My personal preference would be anyone who chooses a magicker subguild should get totally randomized access to some sub-set of that elements spells to a) make magickers more random, b) eliminate attempts at every Burglar/Elementalist just having the perfect combination of spells to supplement their intended activities, and c) put some of the feeling that magicks is inflicted on the character, not some choice they necessarily control.  

That aside, I think the key takeaway is that this change was not an indictment of the play of Mainguilded Magickers or a slight at those players.  It was instead a realization that the handcuffs the code put on those players and characters were not as intended.

ETA: As the Ninja-Adhira put it...

Other staff have already stated this, but I'm going to say it again:  The change was in no way at all reflective of how anyone has played an elementalist in the past.

[Harmless]

I never had handcuffs on my roleplay, or my coded abilities with my mages.

I'll never see any hint of truth at that argument and I'm just going to have to leave it at that. Thanks to staff for making new subguilds for us, truly. But after hearing and reading these posts (and thanks for restating things I missed staff say in this massive thread), we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Beethoven]

I love these subguilds and they really inspire me--I've already come up with some character ideas that I'm really excited about--but it's hard not to feel like something really important and fundamental was lost. However, from what staff have been saying, they don't seem intent on burning any bridges. I'm confident that they are listening to our concerns and taking them into account as they go forward.

[RogueGunslinger]

I never had handcuffs on my roleplay, or my coded abilities with my mages.

I'll never see any hint of truth at that argument and I'm just going to have to leave it at that.

The handcuffs he's talking about is every rogue mage being super easy to spot on an OOC level. Forcing them to roleplay certain ways and not allowing them the ability to be seen as normal people with normal lives. Just because you have an example of your character not having to play like that doesn't mean it's the norm.

[Delirium]

I like the increased ability for mages to be relevant in everyday situations, so they don't have to automatically become a cave-dwelling refugee.

Still disappointed in the loss of nilazi and main guild mages (just let them use mage-specific expanded subguilds w/ mundane abilities).

Not disappointed in the increased rarity of That One Drovian Spell.

I want to see more CODED mundane abilities that echo or accomplish several things that magick can - and mundanes should be able to - do.

Blindfolds. Restraints. The ability to break free of restraints. Temporary barriers. Etc.

[Pale Horse]

Considering how these changes have been implemented...I'm very curious to see what's going to happen to the changes made to the mundane guilds.

I'm getting a "shades of Arm 2.0" in this.  Prepare for the break-down/apart of mundane guilds.

[BadSkeelz]

I hope not. Mundane guilds need to be able to do more things, not less.