3/21/16 Update Discussion Thread

[shadeoux]

I'm very...skeptical.  Not unhappy, just very unsure that this is actually a good thing.  Time will tell.

The more posts I see like this,

I fully love these changes.

It's turning the being a rogue into a more doable role without total isolation.

You can sneak off after your real job, or when your buddies around around to practice your hidden witchcraft.

This sorta goes to another post I was talking in.  It removes a bit of the glass ceiling to certain roles.

Totally love it.  Embrace it people, it makes more sense in the long run.

Is the Tor battle-mage still a thing?

If anything a warrior, subguild devastation krathi, it is more of a REAL thing.

the more skeptical of this change I am.

Add in different reaches, I hope they add in more reaches. Then the above will be -really- nasty.

[whitt]

I'm very...skeptical.  Not unhappy, just very unsure that this is actually a good thing.  Time will tell.

The more posts I see like this,

the more skeptical of this change I am.

They got you...

We aren't going to tighten up the karma awarding system. But we will certainly be clear-cut with removing options from players who demonstrate an ability to use the subguilds to bring something to the game world.

[BadSkeelz]

I feel like this basically kills the gemmed role. Not that I overly mind, I just can't see how it'll work anymore. Magickers are now gonna be warriors and rangers and stuff, with a handful of spells. Who in their right mind is going to accept the gemmed role with such a character? It used to be that you got to play an incredibly powerful mage in exchange for extreme limitations on clans and places you could go. It feels like magickers are being turned into paladins and shadowblades and such, which feels completely at odds with the gemmed concept.

People who don't want to be hunted down and beheaded by the Templarate will choose the Gem.

Just because the spell lists have changed does not mean IC attitudes have changed. The Gem is a means of control first and foremost; its secondary purpose is to provide the Templarate with artillery, spies, and medics.

The Gemmed role is not so people can play at being Harry Potter with full access to spells. It exists so people can play freakish and potentially powerful slaves.

[Rathustra]

People who submit concepts or attempt to play magickers as paladins and such will be denied as they would have been if they'd tried to play old vivaduans as clerics.

Also being gemmed is only a choice for PCs starting gemmed. While this change might perhaps see a reduction in PCs entering the game pre-gemmed, I hope it empowers PCs to be more ruthless with those who try to evade the gem.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Gemmed

[Delirium]

The funny thing is the GUILD SNIFF, will now turn to the SUBGUILD SNIFF.

Employer: Yeah, you can skin stuff, ride well and shoot a bow, I get you're a good hunter..  But what do you do for fun?

Character: Pardon?

Employer: You know, Joe over there makes armor.  Stephanie makes weapons. Curtis makes those tablets and such.  What do you do?

Character: I don't really have any interesting talents like that.

Employer: LIAR! Get out of my face!

That categorically shouldn't get happening at all, it's shit play

Shouldn't, but does. Same with oldschool guild sniffing. I think I'll just start reporting these people to staff, even when it doesn't matter for me personally.

[Warsong]

I feel like this basically kills the gemmed role. Not that I overly mind, I just can't see how it'll work anymore. Magickers are now gonna be warriors and rangers and stuff, with a handful of spells. Who in their right mind is going to accept the gemmed role with such a character? It used to be that you got to play an incredibly powerful mage in exchange for extreme limitations on clans and places you could go. It feels like magickers are being turned into paladins and shadowblades and such, which feels completely at odds with the gemmed concept.

People who don't want to be hunted down and beheaded by the Templarate will choose the Gem.

Just because the spell lists have changed does not mean IC attitudes have changed. The Gem is a means of control first and foremost; its secondary purpose is to provide the Templarate with artillery, spies, and medics.

That seems like an extremely unappealing character, being an unclanned warrior/ranger/merchant/whatever with (presumably) a small selection of spells, and gigantic social stigma. Having the full spell suite was what made up for that in the past. Now? I'll take the already more interesting concept of being a rogue magicker in a clan, since the ability to sit in a temple and cast all day must surely be of far less significance now.

[BadSkeelz]

Sure, you can do that. But don't think your clan will be any more understanding. If you decide to manifest they'll probably turn you over to the Templarate, dead or alive.

Personally I would much rather have played a touched Warrior than a Magicker/Extended Subguild on my Gemmed. The Magick guilds were garbage.

[Lizzie]

I didn't like the sorcerer changes, I'm not too excited about this change either. I liked playing a whiran because of the combination of things is offered, not because of 1/4 of the things it offered. I definitely have no interest in playing a quarter-mage. What's worse, is there are some players (you know there are, and you know who you are) who will use their OOC knowledge in game, even if they insist they never do it. With these new quarter-mages, you can tell when they cast their very first spell which of the other 3/4s they do NOT possess. Any merchant/illusionist is going to be "outed" by "those players" as someone who can be easily killed. With a whiran, you never knew which of their spells they had, but you knew that they had the potential to be horrendously deadly. Or tremendously stealthy. Or ridiculously spooky. Or be remarkably useful with their utility spells. Now - you will know if they don't have that potential as soon as you see the first spell they cast.

As it stands currently, before the rest of the changes are made, I don't like this at all. But I'll keep an open mind for when the rest of the changes are made. I kept an open mind when the sorcerer changes were made and however many years later, I still don't like them and I'm not likely to ever waste a special app on a sorcerer subguild.

[Asmoth]

..
since the ability to sit in a temple and cast all day must surely be of far less significance now.

Again, I'm not the roleplay police, but this has always appeared to me as people doing it wrong.

That's not to say you can't go there to cast a bit here and there, or go there to roleplay with your counterparts.

But if I log in and see you in the temple for hours on end, just resting/sleeping, spamcasting.  I'm going to probably oocly ask you if you're playing the character or the mage first.  And if you don't respond, submit a player complaint.

Being gemmed so you can spamcast in the temple, isn't a benefit.

Now course there are exceptions to the rule but the temples at least in my opinion, aren't temples of solitude to go train in till you're a magickal superman, they are places to gather with your peers, hang out when nobody else is around to deal with (IDLE) and or store a few things that you don't mind getting stolen.

Just my take on it.

[Delirium]

I can see some definite potential for gemmed roles. They would be hardmode - not impossible though.

Hardmode is ok, I had a few future concepts nixed but I think with a few twists they'll actually be MORE interesting now.

I am definitely worried about subguild sniffing, but ruthless and shameless player complaints may at least somewhat fix the problem.

[Erythil]

I'd have liked this change a lot more if full elementalists were kept in, maybe at a higher karma cost.

Maybe I want to play a gemmed who is fully devoted to spellcasting.  In fact I have always wanted to play this role.  Now I cannot, and I never will be able to.  This change adds player choice but it also removes player choice.

[James de Monet]

I guess this answers the question of whether I made the right choice to not store my current char so as to roll up an Elkran...



...it was wrong.  I made the wrong choice.  



I think this is probably going to be a good change, but I feel like I'm gonna need a while to get over what was lost before I feel good about what was gained.

[Rathustra]

I didn't like the sorcerer changes, I'm not too excited about this change either. I liked playing a whiran because of the combination of things is offered, not because of 1/4 of the things it offered. I definitely have no interest in playing a quarter-mage. What's worse, is there are some players (you know there are, and you know who you are) who will use their OOC knowledge in game, even if they insist they never do it. With these new quarter-mages, you can tell when they cast their very first spell which of the other 3/4s they do NOT possess. Any merchant/illusionist is going to be "outed" by "those players" as someone who can be easily killed. With a whiran, you never knew which of their spells they had, but you knew that they had the potential to be horrendously deadly. Or tremendously stealthy. Or ridiculously spooky. Or be remarkably useful with their utility spells. Now - you will know if they don't have that potential as soon as you see the first spell they cast.

As it stands currently, before the rest of the changes are made, I don't like this at all. But I'll keep an open mind for when the rest of the changes are made. I kept an open mind when the sorcerer changes were made and however many years later, I still don't like them and I'm not likely to ever waste a special app on a sorcerer subguild.

1/3rd, third mages. The touched subguilds exist outside of the one-to-three split. I'd argue that knowing someone was a mage of a particular element gave you all the knowledge you needed to deal with them. Considering what was branched was certainly a source of uncertainty, but could be overcome by using further OOC knowledge to gauge how likely any given spell was of being available.

Splitting it three ways, given that these splits have overlapping spells, means that the situation is changed - perhaps not perfectly - but the 'sniffing' algorithm is different and has increased uncertainty in some areas.

At the end of the day though, if you fear what ill-willed players are going to do, you will always be on your back foot.

[Delirium]

Maybe the "subguild sniff" problem could be fixed if we were allowed to pick one extra skill - any skill - that you can get to journeyman.

That would definitely help throw people off.

[Delirium]

Rath - it's less about players knowing what you're capable of, and players using OOC knowledge to know that you're "most likely" a subguild abomination.

At least, it is for me, anyway. The more I think about it, the more I'm concerned this'll be a problem.

[Rathustra]

Rath - it's less about players knowing what you're capable of, and players using OOC knowledge to know that you're "most likely" a subguild abomination.

Hopefully we can solve this with our next few phases of guild updates.

[Asmoth]

Maybe the "subguild sniff" problem could be fixed if we were allowed to pick one extra skill - any skill - that you can get to journeyman.

That would definitely help throw people off.

This chick is a genius, if there was one random tradeskill tossed in the mix of my ranger/quarter-whiran, then I wouldn't be able to be outted so easy.

I'm just a spearmaker in my part time... Who seems to vanish whenever you need me. Mwhaahahaha.

[Warsong]

..
since the ability to sit in a temple and cast all day must surely be of far less significance now.

Again, I'm not the roleplay police, but this has always appeared to me as people doing it wrong.

That's not to say you can't go there to cast a bit here and there, or go there to roleplay with your counterparts.

But if I log in and see you in the temple for hours on end, just resting/sleeping, spamcasting.  I'm going to probably oocly ask you if you're playing the character or the mage first.  And if you don't respond, submit a player complaint.

Being gemmed so you can spamcast in the temple, isn't a benefit.

Now course there are exceptions to the rule but the temples at least in my opinion, aren't temples of solitude to go train in till you're a magickal superman, they are places to gather with your peers, hang out when nobody else is around to deal with (IDLE) and or store a few things that you don't mind getting stolen.

Just my take on it.

Doesn't matter what the view from your soapbox is. The fact remains that this was the main appeal of the gemmed role, and something many of them did, and it doesn't sound like it'll be of any real value after this change. While I'll lose absolutely no sleep over seeing less gemmed around, we do have an entire quarter of Allanak devoted to them and it'll be kinda weird if that ends up being empty while every clan is suddenly scrambling to scrutinize their own people for any signs of magickal activity.

[Lizzie]

I didn't like the sorcerer changes, I'm not too excited about this change either. I liked playing a whiran because of the combination of things is offered, not because of 1/4 of the things it offered. I definitely have no interest in playing a quarter-mage. What's worse, is there are some players (you know there are, and you know who you are) who will use their OOC knowledge in game, even if they insist they never do it. With these new quarter-mages, you can tell when they cast their very first spell which of the other 3/4s they do NOT possess. Any merchant/illusionist is going to be "outed" by "those players" as someone who can be easily killed. With a whiran, you never knew which of their spells they had, but you knew that they had the potential to be horrendously deadly. Or tremendously stealthy. Or ridiculously spooky. Or be remarkably useful with their utility spells. Now - you will know if they don't have that potential as soon as you see the first spell they cast.

As it stands currently, before the rest of the changes are made, I don't like this at all. But I'll keep an open mind for when the rest of the changes are made. I kept an open mind when the sorcerer changes were made and however many years later, I still don't like them and I'm not likely to ever waste a special app on a sorcerer subguild.

1/3rd, third mages. The touched subguilds exist outside of the one-to-three split. I'd argue that knowing someone was a mage of a particular element gave you all the knowledge you needed to deal with them. Considering what was branched was certainly a source of uncertainty, but could be overcome by using further OOC knowledge to gauge how likely any given spell was of being available.

Splitting it three ways, given that these splits have overlapping spells, means that the situation is changed - perhaps not perfectly - but the 'sniffing' algorithm is different and has increased uncertainty in some areas.

At the end of the day though, if you fear what ill-willed players are going to do, you will always be on your back foot.

1) I wasn't understanding that there's some overlap. This helps, if I'm understanding better now (I don't know?)
2) Right, three ways - sorry. Got mixed up with the four aspects or four whatever - I get confused with this stuff (you know I'm the anti-twink right? I mean I actually know the coded formula and I still can't branch in 20 minutes like everyone else can!)
3) I really wish I could see an actual "touched" skills list. Because I'm totally not understanding that at all. This whole cantrip thing - can't we already do that with emotes? I mean - I DO already do that with emotes, so I'm not seeing why it was coded. Does this mean we are no longer allowed to use cantrips in emotes, because now it's circumventing the code?

Like Delirium, I'm concerned with the usefulness of the new subguilds, as I said in my previous post - I liked playing Whirans because of the combination of things, not any specific thing or even any specific type of things. It's the whole package that appeals to me. Without the whole package - it just kind of loses its appeal.

[Rathustra]

I didn't like the sorcerer changes, I'm not too excited about this change either. I liked playing a whiran because of the combination of things is offered, not because of 1/4 of the things it offered. I definitely have no interest in playing a quarter-mage. What's worse, is there are some players (you know there are, and you know who you are) who will use their OOC knowledge in game, even if they insist they never do it. With these new quarter-mages, you can tell when they cast their very first spell which of the other 3/4s they do NOT possess. Any merchant/illusionist is going to be "outed" by "those players" as someone who can be easily killed. With a whiran, you never knew which of their spells they had, but you knew that they had the potential to be horrendously deadly. Or tremendously stealthy. Or ridiculously spooky. Or be remarkably useful with their utility spells. Now - you will know if they don't have that potential as soon as you see the first spell they cast.

As it stands currently, before the rest of the changes are made, I don't like this at all. But I'll keep an open mind for when the rest of the changes are made. I kept an open mind when the sorcerer changes were made and however many years later, I still don't like them and I'm not likely to ever waste a special app on a sorcerer subguild.

1/3rd, third mages. The touched subguilds exist outside of the one-to-three split. I'd argue that knowing someone was a mage of a particular element gave you all the knowledge you needed to deal with them. Considering what was branched was certainly a source of uncertainty, but could be overcome by using further OOC knowledge to gauge how likely any given spell was of being available.

Splitting it three ways, given that these splits have overlapping spells, means that the situation is changed - perhaps not perfectly - but the 'sniffing' algorithm is different and has increased uncertainty in some areas.

At the end of the day though, if you fear what ill-willed players are going to do, you will always be on your back foot.

1) I wasn't understanding that there's some overlap. This helps, if I'm understanding better now (I don't know?)
2) Right, three ways - sorry. Got mixed up with the four aspects or four whatever - I get confused with this stuff (you know I'm the anti-twink right? I mean I actually know the coded formula and I still can't branch in 20 minutes like everyone else can!)
3) I really wish I could see an actual "touched" skills list. Because I'm totally not understanding that at all. This whole cantrip thing - can't we already do that with emotes? I mean - I DO already do that with emotes, so I'm not seeing why it was coded. Does this mean we are no longer allowed to use cantrips in emotes, because now it's circumventing the code?

Like Delirium, I'm concerned with the usefulness of the new subguilds, as I said in my previous post - I liked playing Whirans because of the combination of things, not any specific thing or even any specific type of things. It's the whole package that appeals to me. Without the whole package - it just kind of loses its appeal.

Try checking out http://armageddon.org/help/view/Cantrip for some hints on what we mean by 'touched' subguilds and their relation to cantrips. Any mage can still emote cantrips. I will try and get a touched help file out tomorrow.

I can't offer any consolation with regards to packages. This change undeniably changes the way that elementalists operate and the split will be the love/hate divide.

[Asmoth]

Like Delirium, I'm concerned with the usefulness of the new subguilds, as I said in my previous post - I liked playing Whirans because of the combination of things, not any specific thing or even any specific type of things. It's the whole package that appeals to me. Without the whole package - it just kind of loses its appeal.

There are definite negatives about not having the FULL KIT of magic.

But think of all the positives:

You can now take the potential power of all the mundane guilds and add a smattering of whiran power.

The potential power, WAY outweighs the downsides.

A mage who can kill things with magic, then actually has skill at skinning them.  Less waste when out killing critters with your mage.

There is a ton of combos that just seem outright amazing.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Jesus Christ, five pages in an hour.

Honestly this change makes more sense. Now there will be far more people who 'specialize in something' rather than an overwhelming 99% who 'learn everything perfectly.'

[Rathustra]

With regard to the gemmed: Removing their appeal as a place to develop PCs into solely magickal characters was foreseen. Removing the attraction of Temples and the Quarter as a place to solely develop skills gives us space to possibly consider how we can make the role more nuanced without focusing on mechanical magickal power.

[BadSkeelz]

Some people don't want the smattering, they want all magick.

Personally I'm leery of Warriors getting magick. Buggers are hard enough to kill as it is without having good defense against bash, kick, and melee.

I'd say I hope the Warrior guild is going to get some love to help counterattack all the incoming Jedi, but any buffs to Warriors also buff mages... hrmph.

[Asmoth]

Some people don't want the smattering, they want all magick.

Personally I'm leery of Warriors getting magick. Buggers are hard enough to kill as it is without having good defense against bash, kick, and melee.

I'd say I hope the Warrior guild is going to get some love to help counterattack all the incoming Jedi, but any buffs to Warriors also buff mages... hrmph.

You just gave me my next character concept, I'm making Zalanthan Mace Windu.  Warrior Fire weapon guy.

lmao