Is it wrong that I want to kill all of you?

[Delirium]

I'm not saying that cloak and dagger plots are bad. I'm saying that I agree that there have been missed opportunities to involve the playerbase more.

Let's use the... volcano relocation, as an example. Players were revved up for a battle. Finally, some knock down, drag out PVP!

What happened: I was flat-out told via staff send not to use tactics which made perfect IC sense because it was "not time yet", i.e. it was getting in the way of arranging PCs where staff wanted them to be. Guys, it's a battle, if you can delay an army as you have been in-character ordered to do, you should be allowed to delay the army in-character.

What could have happened: the unit that was sent to delay the army with guerrilla tactics could have actually been allowed to do that.

What happened: We were arranged on a battlefield, the fight that did break out was stopped, and we were treated to a spectator show that we were not really involved in at all. The landscape was rendered largely irrelevant to plots of a mundane nature from that point forward. The Tan Muark village was completely destroyed off-screen.

What could have happened: the PCs from one side marched on Tyn Dashra and participated in the slaughter and sacking of the village, while the other army comes in to try and scoop up the territory for themselves. Fights break out long-term over the territory, each city trying to claim its verdant plains for themselves. One city starts to win, the other starts to lose. Either way, the volcano starts to go dormant outside of Allanak. Part of its cliffs crumble, opening more pathways around and through it. Another one starts to bubble up in the heart of the ridges around Tyn Dashra. Eventually Tyn Dashra has a full-fledged volcano and part of the ridges are destroyed, but grass fires have destroyed most of the greenery, though the landscape itself is otherwise largely unchanged. The cities lose interest in fighting over the territory but the area is destroyed by the fighting and the volcano. A lot less building work too!

That's just one idea and one example. My point is that the second options would have allowed players to more fully affect events and participate in them. The way it went down not only involved an immense amount of building and unnecessarily removed several very cool areas from the game, it didn't even give the Muark a chance of participating in fighting for their own survival nor did it gives PCs on the other side the satisfaction of doing something once in a lifetime - destroying and sacking a village, in character. How brutal would that have been?

So... yes, the plots going on are cool. Yes, I'm sure I have no idea what most or any of them are. But there is always room for improvement and to consider how you can involve a wider range of players. Whatever OOC goals you have for the game, they should include giving players as big of a slice of the fun pie as you can.

edit: for clarification and typos.

[bcw81]

Delerium, the battle of The Dashra is probably one of the worst plots to complain about. If memory serves we had somewhere around 170 players on at that one moment in time for the first major hRPT in five years. There was no way in hell staff could allow every single player to make grandstanding decisions about the overall plot of that one "high echelons" plot, it needed a bit of railroading.

As for Clearsighted's complaints? I'm not sure what he's asking myself? He wants plots that small people can get into, but its like he hasn't been playing for the last five years. Yes, you aren't going to just get random plots thrown in your lap. Yes, you do normally need to make friends to get involved in plots.

But seriously, it takes about two seconds before you see player created clans trying to hire every person alive to peruse their grand plot of starting a merchant house. It takes about two minutes in Red Storm before you come across three escaped muls seeking Borsail vengeance and ten rogue 'gickers helping them. It's not hard to see plots on the small scale.

[Desertman]

All I know is if you would all just step back and let me run all of the plots, I would do it a lot better.

Deal with it.

My ideal Armageddon:

who

There are currently 0 players in the world other than yourself.

think Yes, yes...finally. It's my playground now bitches.

[nauta]

Hi,

One thing I think Clearsighted is on about is the idea of staff-driven bottom-up trivial plots (I could be totally wrong!)  I could also be wrong about how neat these are, but I do think these are neat.  The world can seem pretty static up until you reach a level in a clan where you get included in some of the secret plots.  (There's also the issue of summer slowdown that might motivate some of the discussion above, but I can assure you there aren't ten rogue gicks or three muls sitting in Red Storm, bcw.)  

Let me give two examples:

1. My rinther once stumbled on a scroll with writing on it on the body pile.  I don't know if this was a staff thing or what, but it sure did generate a lot of plots and RP among my gangbangin' buds, even if nothing came of it.

2. My Salarr once had a kankfly talk to it.  (This I now realize was a mistake.)  But again, this little event to my nobody PC generated a lot of scenes and some plots, even if it wasn't connected with a meaningful over-arching narrative.

Such events don't need to have a grand narrative behind them (although that's what my PCs assumed) - they just offer a way to break up the monotony of the static world a bit, and generate some fun for nobody PCs.

[Clearsighted]

Delerium, the battle of The Dashra is probably one of the worst plots to complain about. If memory serves we had somewhere around 170 players on at that one moment in time for the first major hRPT in five years. There was no way in hell staff could allow every single player to make grandstanding decisions about the overall plot of that one "high echelons" plot, it needed a bit of railroading.

As for Clearsighted's complaints? I'm not sure what he's asking myself? He wants plots that small people can get into, but its like he hasn't been playing for the last five years. Yes, you aren't going to just get random plots thrown in your lap. Yes, you do normally need to make friends to get involved in plots.

But seriously, it takes about two seconds before you see player created clans trying to hire every person alive to peruse their grand plot of starting a merchant house. It takes about two minutes in Red Storm before you come across three escaped muls seeking Borsail vengeance and ten rogue 'gickers helping them. It's not hard to see plots on the small scale.

1) I don't think Delirium is talking about getting allowed to make big 'grandstanding' decisions that brings the mud to a halt for ~170 people. Just rolling out and conducting some hit and runs on PCs milling about. I wasn't playing then, so I can't know for sure, but I don't think it would have required staff intervention and assistance on a grand scale to go sneak, hide and take some arrow potshots at the opposing force. I could be wrong. I don't think 'grandstanding' is the right word for someone just trying to do their IC job in a logical fashion, either.

2) I don't think it's entirely fair to call what I've posted a 'complaint'. Why can't it just be a conversation, or a debate? Perhaps even an argument. If it were a 'complaint', I'd take it to the request tool. In my own opinion, it's more of an 'observation' that clans could use more friction and more rivalries that aren't of the highly secretive/discreet variety.

3) Once again. It has nothing to do with whatever character I'm playing, or however many friends I have. I just believe there has to be a median somewhere between the 'Da Vinci Code' level plots on one hand, and the meaningless monster of the week plots on the other. Just something simple and mundane, like competition over a watering hole, scarce resource, caravan route, trading privileges, etc. I'm thinking more skirmishes, patrols, the occasional raid or counter-raid. Not the Copper War.

This particular observation is focused mostly on institutional rivalries between established clans and tribes operating mostly outside the Gaj. Not so much random indies in Red Storm 'being the change'. But the geopolitical landscape of the game, and how it doesn't always have to revolve around something supernaturally epic to be exciting or interesting.

[Delirium]

Delerium, the battle of The Dashra is probably one of the worst plots to complain about. If memory serves we had somewhere around 170 players on at that one moment in time for the first major hRPT in five years.

That many players is all the more reason to break it up into several smaller engagements over the course of a few weeks. I'm puzzled by your attitude. Allowing players to participate in the action is a far cry from 'every player makes grandstanding decisions.'

[Mordiggian]

I think most of us agree the Battle of Tyn Dashra HRPT could have been done differently with some better results.

[Dresan]

There were some major differences between the last HRPT and the copper wars.

One of the highlights of the copper war was the fact that two enemy camps were in rather close proximity to each other. This did kinda allowed for some exciting patrols and skirmishes before some more memorable showdowns. The last HRPT had none of this and from the tuluki side there were some pretty defined borders we were told we shouldn't cross, and I think it was the same for the allanak side.  Unfortunately, we needed those restrcitions since the small scale skirmishes people wanted was really something that was impossible to actually do in the last HRPT given the distribution of playerbase.

During the HRPT we only had about three recruits in the legion and three officers (one traitor in that), and maybe two good rangers in the entire city at the time. One of those good ranger was tasked with scouting near the enemy camp and never returned. Tuluk just did not have the numbers to deal with allanaki players and more specifically the mage players. It only took one whiran to practically bring tuluk down on its knees and decimate an entire clan just a few months before, though luckily by 'sheer coincidence' the staff decided to raise the karma level of whirans.  

I think people forget how one sided things felt during the copper war when one side had mages coming out of their asses, mages who will group and buff each other. Not to mention the copper wars was a time where people complained that if you saw their mage and did something other then piss your pants and do everything they said, you were a twink. Sometimes for good reason, since it was an invisible 5 day old rukkian that killed my 35 day old assassin without any effort. Sure now we have barrier and other quality of life changes, but it doesn't change the fact alot of people here cannot control themselves, and who do and will roll mage after mage (or maxed out mage, 0.5 day ranger, maxxed out mage, maxxed out mage)  training them without effort and practically make things unplayable for one side.  

The last HRPT scripted senerio was probably the best option given the player base on each side. Unless Tuluk had  desert elves like soh on their side to balanace out the lack of mages, it would have just been a slaughter.  I do think the idea of skirmishes between player houses/clans or organizations would be nice to see someday, but in order for it to work there needs to be more restriction on mages . Something like making them part of the three per year special app total or something, anything to keep certain people from rolling them over and over during these events.   If not that the game will just need to stop getting them involved in these events in a combat capacity.

Assuming of course you can balance out the mundanes on each side, because there were a heck of a lot of brown and black cloaked figures on the allanak side.

[Delirium]

That's pretty funny considering one of the strings of BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP during the brief battle was nearly the entire cadre of mages dying all at once.

Tuluk also did have defenses against mages.. they were VERY apparent during that latest HRPT, though maybe not to anyone but the mages.

Also.. during the Copper War... Allanak got roflstomped.

So.

Try again? Heh.

[manonfire]

Gosh, it's almost like the 20 year old codebase of this roleplaying MUD with a handful of volunteer coders isn't equipped to handle mass combat.

[BadSkeelz]

Tuluki favoritism is pretty apparent if you read between the lines of the War RPTs on the chronology page (or just attend one). It's difficult to compete against armies of kungfu sponsored roles backed up with ranks of twinked out rangers and warriors.

Of course it's all a moot point now since Tuluk is teh closed nyah nyah nyah

Interestingly, having talked to players who fought on both sides of the wars, everyone tends to think that they got screwed one way or another. Except during the Copper War - the Tuluki vets seem to feel they rightly won that one.

Wait, what was this thread about again?

[Delirium]

Oh, oh, oh, I know! Killing each other!

Sometimes I miss the days of the Halaster HRPTs. I think we can find a happy middle ground, especially if we look at ways to split the action up into smaller chunks.

[Dresan]

That's pretty funny considering one of the strings of BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP during the brief battle was nearly the entire cadre of mages dying all at once.

Tuluk also did have defenses against mages.. they were VERY apparent during that latest HRPT, though maybe not to anyone but the mages.

Also.. during the Copper War... Allanak got roflstomped.

So.

Try again? Heh.

I think you are confusing the staff chosen narrative to what would have actually happened code-wise if a few couple day old mundanes faced off serveral mages+mundanes. By the way, in the copper war, tuluk barely held their own, pulling out with as much of the copper vien as they could take before allanak rushed in. Not much of a roflstomp if you ask me.

[BadSkeelz]

One of the things I do regret about Tuluk closing is that my Templar will not be able to coordinate with his partner on the other side of Luir's, arranging skirmishes between their units for their own mutual glorification.

[Delirium]

That's pretty funny considering one of the strings of BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP during the brief battle was nearly the entire cadre of mages dying all at once.

Tuluk also did have defenses against mages.. they were VERY apparent during that latest HRPT, though maybe not to anyone but the mages.

Also.. during the Copper War... Allanak got roflstomped.

So.

Try again? Heh.

I think you are confusing the staff chosen narrative to what would have actually happened code-wise if a few couple day old mundanes faced off serveral mages+mundanes. By the way, in the copper war, tuluk barely held their own, before pulling out with as much of the copper vien as they could take before allanak rushed in. Not much of a roflstomp if you ask me.

That would be the staff-chosen narrative of the Copper War... Allanak kept losing Blue Robes at an alarming rate due to unit NPC tactics.

Either way, that's semantics and players don't have the full picture.

The issue itself is something where we're actually agreeing with each other. Breaking the battle up into smaller chunks and giving mages specific, important tasks to complete would help accomplish what both of us want; giving the smallfry PCs a chance to participate without getting completely steamrolled by the big boys. Either way, I'd rather die due to PvP or in a battle than to storage boredom or tarantula #948. We all die, the best we can hope for is to die in a meaningful or at least interesting way. This is not a game you win.

[BadSkeelz]

I think "meaningful deaths" are against the Armageddon TOS.

[manonfire]

You could probably fix that by putting a cap on the number of PCs that can by in a room at any given time.

Like, if you know there's gonna be 100 PCs crammed asshole to elbow in Tyn Dashra, maaaaybe cap the room at like.. 15.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd rather have a limit on how many (N)PCs can engage a given target, with warriors having a bonus when defending against higher numbers. Or have slightly more formalized PVP where opponents sought each other out and put a bit of RP in there, and didn't simply assist train each other.

We had a whole thread on this after the HRPT.

[BadSkeelz]

I should have MCBed those stupid spies at the end of the HRPT. Or at least done it at their party afterward. Ah well, missed opportunities.

[Eyeball]

I think people forget how one sided things felt during the copper war when one side had mages coming out of their asses, mages who will group and buff each other.

I think you're forgetting how any mage entering battle was common slaughtered by 'order unit kill <x>', followed by 'A unit of half-giant soldiers chops <x> for lethal damage'. And how the Allanaki camp was left open, with the mages made to camp outside, prey to arrows, while the Tuluki sat behind their gates of impregnability which even a fire elemental couldn't bring down.

[manonfire]

I'd rather have a limit on how many (N)PCs can engage a given target, with warriors having a bonus when defending against higher numbers. Or have slightly more formalized PVP where opponents sought each other out and put a bit of RP in there, and didn't simply assist train each other.

We had a whole thread on this after the HRPT.

Well, I was responding to the whole "battle into smaller chunks" comment by Delirium - your idea is more of a fix for combat in general.

[Narf]

Gosh, it's almost like the 20 year old codebase of this roleplaying MUD with a handful of volunteer coders isn't equipped to handle mass combat.

Yeah, honestly... Yeah.

And I'd go one step further and say that even the skirmishes people are talking about wouldn't have consistently worked well with the way the game is set up overall, and not just the code base. I mean you have to hope that your skirmishers all log on at the same time, that they're balanced enough that it's not just a complete slaughter, that they actually meet each other, that the RPT can handle the loss of players if it /is/ a complete slaughter.

I think people would have been better off going into the RPT as if it were an dark and gritty reboot of a MASH episode rather than an actual war. That's really where the big war had a chance to shine with the current gameplay mechanics (and I don't just mean the code, I mean the overarching nature of a voluntary RPG with optional logon times).

When designing sources of conflict, players need to focus a lot on what the game itself can actually handle.

[Is Friday]

Unrealistic expectations does a bitter player make.

[bcw81]

Interestingly, having talked to players who fought on both sides of the wars, everyone tends to think that they got screwed one way or another. Except during the Copper War - the Tuluki vets seem to feel they rightly won that one.

You should have seen the posts from annoyed Templar players at the time bellygagging at staff for pulling out of the copper mine before it was depleated "so that Allanak could feel like it won too". It was a good read.

[Taijan]

It's oft been stated in the past that the game population really can't handle sustained, open conflict.  It generally takes a significant investment of time and effort to be competent, so open hostility places someone at great risk of losing it all.  Seeing an increase in violence wouldn't be a bad thing, but perhaps the risk could be mitigated by players not making most PvP situations end in death.

Mass combat situations are something I hope to avoid at all costs, from any angle. As the number of combatants increases, the fight ceases to be a life or death struggle and instead turns into something akin to dropping grapes into a food processor.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but anything over two groups of four to five people fighting becomes too spamtastic (to use the technical term) to follow and react to, even more so when something unexpected happens in the middle of it.  So I like the idea of smaller engagements that focus more on the actions of just a handful of people.