Creating Meaningful Conflict (GMHs, Nobles, etc)

[Jeax]

I'm creating this thread to keep the idea rolling on how to create meaningful conflict between Great Merchant Houses and Noble Families, without necessarily elevating it to a city-state level. Ideologies, resources, product competition, economic warfare, all of these have been brought up. It seems to me that player-run conflicts have a ceiling, and that if Staff were to create some sort of plot that people took sides on, we could see much more explosive play.

What would make meaningful plots in these places? How could we get long-term conflict going on, that would keep this element of story rolling? What are the player responsibilities here, and where would we need Staff's help? Etc, discuss, etc.

[Jeax]

Local markets and monopolies vs other local markets and monopolies on the merchant-tycoon level is just so much more interesting to me personally than global monopolies by a single entity.

This is where I'm hanging my hat. I think finding a way to have the GMH battle on an economic plane would be awesome. Right now the global monopolies prevent (I feel) meaningful competition between each House to a degree that they can't fight and sway one another, and perhaps even sway city-states. It would certainly give Hunters a lot more to fight for, and just a whole new level of RP to a House I think.

[Desertman]

Local markets and monopolies vs other local markets and monopolies on the merchant-tycoon level is just so much more interesting to me personally than global monopolies by a single entity.

This is where I'm hanging my hat. I think finding a way to have the GMH battle on an economic plane would be awesome. Right now the global monopolies prevent (I feel) meaningful competition between each House to a degree that they can't fight and sway one another, and perhaps even sway city-states. It would certainly give Hunters a lot more to fight for, and just a whole new level of RP to a House I think.

It just brings to the forefront so many opportunities that are currently blocked by the very real and valid excuse of "We don't want to rock the boat because we have interests everywhere.".

If we had opposing merchant Houses dealing in the same products fighting each other over the global access to materials regularly...*mindblown*.

The number of hunters/soldiers/House guards hired with stuff to actually do? Damn.
The number of mercenaries hired? Damn.
The number of House on House raids against each other's caravans to places like Luir's and Redstorm? Damn.
The number of assassin's hired? Damn.
The number of spies hired? Damn.

Right now, none of that can happen because Salarr has no reason to hire anyone for any truly meaningful conflict against another merchant entity. They are too comfortable, and really, they have no reason that makes any sense to risk that in any way.

[Down Under]

As I stated in the previous thread, having 'resource competition' would provide an outlet for that economic instability. Even resources that aren't directly related to said House (Rubies for Salarr, though they might inset them into blades, but they'd need to be nice and cut and polished by Kadius...) would be of interest to them, because it provides leverage with other Houses.

Spice Deposit uncovered near Red Storm. What's that? Salarr managed to scoop it up before Kurac? Well shit, I guess if they want that spice refined they'll have to sell it back to Kurac, but Kurac won't give them a good deal on it.

Ruby Deposit uncovered in Mountain Range...Kadius manages to scout it out and get some workers up there, but they mysteriously don't report in. Kurac is rumored to have come into a 'large collection' of rubies...Related?

Onyx Deposit uncovered in the Tablelands...All the GMH are interested in it, but aren't on the best of terms with the Soh Lanah Kah or the Sun Runners. Diplomacy is key in this resource race...

And so on. I think it creates conflict in the realm of economy, diplomacy between the Houses, and conflict between each branch of hunters/field operatives.

[Jeax]

The number of hunters/soldiers/House guards hired with stuff to actually do? Damn.
The number of mercenaries hired? Damn.
The number of House on House raids against each other's caravans to places like Luir's and Redstorm? Damn.
The number of assassin's hired? Damn.
The number of spies hired? Damn.

Right now, none of that can happen because Salarr has no reason to hire anyone for any truly meaningful conflict against another merchant entity. They are too comfortable, and really, they have no reason that makes any sense to risk that in any way.

Agree here. It would turn playing in a GMH into a frenzy. I think it would be amazing. I think this could even be started by player initiative. What if a House Merchant gets upset and starts mastercrafting armor, and committing them to the House, etc...that's now a product of the House...there's competition about who is the better gear, and even if you off that Merchant, the avalanche has started. Staff would just have to allow this to take place, and perhaps provide a seed for it.

I think, as you say, we would then see an increase in plot for everyone. Mercs, assassins, spies (people joining both Houses, essentially corporate espionage) and everything. Yeah. Need.

[Desertman]

Would Kadius actually go to war with Salarr over those deposits?

They could I guess, but would they? I don't think the current structure really promotes them doing that, and even if they did it would be a one-pop shop that would require a lot of staff support.

I prefer the idea of smaller local monopolies competing for the same global resources for on-going and potentially never-ending conflicts that would require basically no on-going staff support once the initial Houses/docs were created.

[Jeax]

Ruby Deposit uncovered in Mountain Range...Kadius manages to scout it out and get some workers up there, but they mysteriously don't report in. Kurac is rumored to have come into a 'large collection' of rubies...Related?

With the monopoly, this wouldn't matter. Everyone would just sit there and be like "Oh, looks like Kadius struck gold." and you would get some indies up there. If Kurac decided "Hey, this deposit is closer to us than it is Kadius' main force...we should take it and start a jewelry line." -- now you have a conflict.

Edit: Of course, I don't think Kurac would have any interest in jewelry, this is just an example.

[Jeax]

Disclaimer: The below is total spitballing. It's all poorly thought out, waterfall of ideas.

I will just go ahead and sail this right into the sky--what if, with the ruby example, Tuluk shows up...and can't get in because the Fist is there, or because Kadius already took it and they blocked the way, or something like this...would Kadius be kicked out of Tuluk? That would be interesting, and in the same way I think...for example, the city I live in and company I work for...the mayor is giving us a free plot of land downtown because of the amount of revenue we bring to the city. I think it's safe to say you want coins rolling through your city. You want trade, or you will dry up. That's exactly what a GMH is.

Salarr used to have an outpost--would things like that spring back up? Would it be cleaned out and brought back to life? (I'm hoping the addition of Builders perhaps opens the way to enhanced plot lines like this)

I think with the GMHs we have a bit of a "sleeping giant" in our midst. I wouldn't want to do anything that would basically require tons of Staff hours, but I think there's a lot that Staff could just get started and see how it rolls.

[Desertman]

It would even create things for the noble Houses in those specific cities to get behind and be part of. If you are House Tor of Allanak and the weapons/armor House of Allanak, House Jabawak is going to war with House Salarr of Tuluk over a deposit of really high-grade obsidian.....Tor, who is arguably supplied by House Jabawak for their war efforts MIGHT want to be part of that conflict.

Things like that.

[Desertman]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

[Jeax]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

This is true. That's why I think Builders could help out with a lot of it.

[Talia]

It seems to me that player-run conflicts have a ceiling, and that if Staff were to create some sort of plot that people took sides on, we could see much more explosive play.

Man, why didn't I think of this before?!?!?!??

Take that as gentle sarcasm Now, not to be a totally "find out IC" asshole (like I usually am), but, have you guys...maybe...tried finding out IC whether there's anything like this already happening?

The reality of the way that Armageddon works as a game is that large plots that will create inter-clan conflict require staff oversight,  involvement, planning, and execution. Unfortunately, they can't truly be started at the player level. This was true and I knew it when I played leaders (some during the totally-player-driven era, and some before), and I can even more clearly now see the truth of it.

That doesn't mean that players won't be involved and even that player actions won't turn plots this way and that. We work very diligently to incorporate player actions and reactions. And we reward players for their actions, too. We spend a lot of time discussing, "Hey, so-and-so could use a plot bone here, how do we do that? What about whatsherface, how can we get her more involved?" And then we execute, both in accordance with our grand plans and themes, and in reaction to what players are doing in the moment and long-term.

One thing players can do to make these big plots come to life for the broader playerbase is to involve other PCs in your information, your schemes, and your efforts. Often, leaders will hold stuff really close to their vest. But if you have trusted minions, why not tell them what you know and give them some plot-related jobs to do? (When I played minions during big plot things, I found it frustrating that despite my trust level being 9000, I often wasn't confided in or tasked.) The truth about plot info is that it's going to come out, at some point; leaks are expected and desirable.

Another thing to remember is that big plots usually can't be won in a traditional sense. They can be survived, they can be enjoyed--but ultimately, Tek/Muk/other big badass are the real winners. So enjoy the ride, throw yourself in, play your heart out, and worry less about winning.

[Desertman]

Talia! You stop with your personable reasonable responses this very instant! I won't stand for it! Filthy necker.

Seriously though, that was refreshing to read. Thanks for the reply.

I am the world's/Known's worst about not trusting anyone with anything with my leaders. Absolutely the worst.  

But, if I tell them, then they might tell someone, and then stuff and things and stuff and OMAGAHD HERE COMES THE TEMPLARZ WHY!?!?!?!?!

[Nyr]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on the kind of things we'd like to spend our time working on.

(this is one of them)

[Desertman]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on the kind of things we'd like to spend our time working on.

(this is one of them)

You don't tease me!

[Nyr]

Just stating the facts, sir.  Those are things we like doing.

[Semper]

The reality of the way that Armageddon works as a game is that large plots that will create inter-clan conflict require staff oversight,  involvement, planning, and execution. Unfortunately, they can't truly be started at the player level. This was true and I knew it when I played leaders (some during the totally-player-driven era, and some before), and I can even more clearly now see the truth of it.

That doesn't mean that players won't be involved and even that player actions won't turn plots this way and that. We work very diligently to incorporate player actions and reactions. And we reward players for their actions, too. We spend a lot of time discussing, "Hey, so-and-so could use a plot bone here, how do we do that? What about whatsherface, how can we get her more involved?" And then we execute, both in accordance with our grand plans and themes, and in reaction to what players are doing in the moment and long-term.

One thing players can do to make these big plots come to life for the broader playerbase is to involve other PCs in your information, your schemes, and your efforts. Often, leaders will hold stuff really close to their vest. But if you have trusted minions, why not tell them what you know and give them some plot-related jobs to do? (When I played minions during big plot things, I found it frustrating that despite my trust level being 9000, I often wasn't confided in or tasked.) The truth about plot info is that it's going to come out, at some point; leaks are expected and desirable.

Another thing to remember is that big plots usually can't be won in a traditional sense. They can be survived, they can be enjoyed--but ultimately, Tek/Muk/other big badass are the real winners. So enjoy the ride, throw yourself in, play your heart out, and worry less about winning.

This is totally what I was hoping for! I'm so glad staff are on board with this. I think I'm just a bit mystified that there isn't more open conflict across Zalanthas. Being in a pretty involved clan, I bring this topic up now and then because I really don't see the things that Talia mentions here IG, and so I get disheartened at the lack of plot diversity.

Please make it easier for everyone and anyone to get involved in these plots (if they really do exist). I seriously think we need more open conflict going on (perhaps in my particular region of Zalanthas just needs it more than the other?). If you are a leader PC in the seat, please share with other PCs and help spread the fun! I'd love for a new player, without knowing anything going on with the GDB and the discussion here, to be able to jump into the game and realize by themselves that "wow, my character is having to make some really important, moral choices right off the bat. There's this conflict there that I could be involved in, and if I don't like that plot, then there's this other plot over there that I can be involved in"! Right now, the feeling I get when I log in is "suck up to a Noble, Templar, ANYONE, and maybe I'll get a bone to pick thrown my way after a full IG year, once I'm FINALLY trusted to wipe the dust off my leader's boots."

The game chases new players (and old) away, ultimately because it's so hard to get involved in a meaningful plot without being a 50+day master warrior/assassion/ranger. If you get involved in plots from day 0 as a player, we could retain so many more players. Being a veteran player should not give you an advantage over a newer player in what kind of plots you can be involved in. PLEASE FIX THIS!

[Delirium]

"People hate Superman because he takes all of the stakes out of everything because he never fucking loses."

That's the problem with the GMH - it's incredibly hard to create meaningful, sustainable, and sensible conflict due to the way they're established.

The difficulty of coming up with a resource-conflict plot that makes sense is (unfortunately) a good example of this.

There would need to be a major sea change before you could really start creating visible plots for the GMH that affected a wide range of PCs.

[Jeax]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on the kind of things we'd like to spend our time working on.

(this is one of them)

Yissss

[nauta]

One thing players can do to make these big plots come to life for the broader playerbase is to involve other PCs in your information, your schemes, and your efforts. Often, leaders will hold stuff really close to their vest. But if you have trusted minions, why not tell them what you know and give them some plot-related jobs to do? (When I played minions during big plot things, I found it frustrating that despite my trust level being 9000, I often wasn't confided in or tasked.) The truth about plot info is that it's going to come out, at some point; leaks are expected and desirable.

I just want to +1 that.

[HavokBlue]

"People hate Superman because he takes all of the stakes out of everything because he never fucking loses."

That's the problem with the GMH - it's incredibly hard to create meaningful, sustainable, and sensible conflict due to the way they're established.

The difficulty of coming up with a resource-conflict plot that makes sense is (unfortunately) a good example of this.

There would need to be a major sea change before you could really start creating visible plots for the GMH that affected a wide range of PCs.

Agent from House A spends several months scouting locations, gathering funds, supplies, and allies from both his House and other clans to excavate a location for artifacts. Agent from House B finds out and tries to snag the location first. Conflict happens. Wham. Bam. Players can start this, and you low-level competing interests.

Senior merchant from House B notices House A owns the place where raw materials are bought and sold. Senior Merchant decides his house uses more raw materials and should control the raw material trade. He works to gain political allies and discredit House A so that House B can try to swing a takeover of the raw material trade. Wham. Bam. Players can start this, and you have more competing interests! You might not succeed, but it's another thing you can do.

[Armaddict]

Now, not to be a totally "find out IC" asshole (like I usually am), but, have you guys...maybe...tried finding out IC whether there's anything like this already happening?

-I- see what you're doing, Talia.  YOU BE MAKING MY JAW DROP LIKE WHOA.

One thing players can do to make these big plots come to life for the broader playerbase is to involve other PCs in your information, your schemes, and your efforts. Often, leaders will hold stuff really close to their vest. But if you have trusted minions, why not tell them what you know and give them some plot-related jobs to do? (When I played minions during big plot things, I found it frustrating that despite my trust level being 9000, I often wasn't confided in or tasked.) The truth about plot info is that it's going to come out, at some point; leaks are expected and desirable.

ALREADY WORKIN' ON IT BRUH.

For srs, this one was a pretty damn sweet idea that I've not seen anything like in my entire time here.  Props for logical originality.

[wizturbo]

Just stating the facts, sir.  Those are things we like doing.

Can confirm.  They are doing these things...  A lot.... 

[Wday]

I don't see conflict coming with simple fact that a indy hunter has more meaning and wealth then a House hunter.
That said even if two three five houses get into a fuss, I see people saying screw it and just doing indy to keep out of the fray.

[HavokBlue]

Those people probably shouldn't complain on the GDB about a lack of plots then.