Crim-code and such

[Reiloth]

Ideally I would see crim code kicking in after a delay. Modifiers would increase or decrease the amount of time. Right now, rooms seem to be either fully populated or not populated at all. If there were degrees of population (Not populated, semi populated, fully populated). NPCs could decrease the delay, or have no effect if they are not the type to report crime. Thievery would actually be easier in fully populated rooms -- so the delay should only be decreased with multiple NPCs. Distance drawn between the nearest soldier and the crime could be determined, and that specific NPC responds to the scene of the crime.

Just some thoughts.

[Delirium]

Reiloth's idea, and/or a GTA-style incremental level of being wanted - that's my ideal world.

[Reiloth]

That could be reflected by the severity of the crime, and the amount of soldiers that respond. Thievery would draw maybe 1-2 soldiers depending on the area of town. 2-3 soldiers if it's assault with a weapon, 1-2 unarmed brawling. Offenses that are avoided are still recorded -- escaping a thievery accusation puts your description on the radar (Perhaps a snapshot of the current SDesc as seen by an NPC or Soldier). That description could be recorded at the "quartermaster" NPC, and recited on command by a Sergeant or Templar.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So, I'm home. Time to expound.

Right now, being wanted appears to be an off or on flag. The first step to this will be changing the wanted flag to a level ranging from 1 - 10. First I will list the wanted status levels with the city's response. I am sure that my seven examples are enough to understand the concept, and there could be non-mundane options as well. Note first that I am more familiar with Allanak than Tuluk, but this could be put to work in Tuluk too, with Northron themed response.


0. You are not wanted, and law enforcement does not pay attention to you.
1. You are not wanted, but law enforcement is aware of you.
    1 soldier will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is also aware of you.
2. You are not wanted, but law enforcement is communicating with you.
    Up to 2 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
3. You are wanted, and you merit an unarmed beatdown.
    Up to 3 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
4. You are wanted, and you merit arrest.
    Up to 3 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
5. You are wanted, you merit arrest, and have fled the area, but not custody.
    Up to 4 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
6. You are wanted, you merit arrest, and have fled custody.
    Up to 5 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
7. You are wanted and you merit death.


Now, I will give examples of each state. Note that this system uses the code to define the state of the wanted flag, but that there is extensive scripting, and in scripting, variables are checked to illicit the soldiers' RPed responses.


0. You are doing nothing aside from living and breathing.
1. You, a human, beats an elf down. Soldiers watch and laugh at the elf.
    (Dude, it's an elf - and this is Miner's Road. Take bets?)
2. You, a human, beats down a rinther human. Soldiers warn you to stop now
    (ten seconds if it were a human, but twenty seconds since it's just a dwarf. If this is the Gaj, room #4521, the time you are given to stop is multiplied by 3. If this is the Red's Retreat, the time is divided by 2.).
3. You, an unclanned elf, have started an unarmed fight with a human.
    (Soldiers come around and knock you out cold, and leave you there.)
4. You, a clanned Kadian dwarf with southron origins, have tried to stab a northron independant.
    (If you were a northron dwarf, your wanted level would have been raised to 5, but you are southron, and that's alright. Still can't have you trying to stab people in the street. Come along peacefully - you can follow me to your cell.)
5. You fled the room when the soldiers arrived and told you that you were under arrest.
6. You, a Kuraci human, punched a Borsail Noble.
    (Yep, dumbass. That's High Blood there. We're coming for you. No, you didn't flee arrest yet, but we're going to respond with the same number of people as though you did.)
7. You, a sorcerer ...
    (We probably oughta run away, actually, but then the Templars might kill us instead. So, uh, arrows? Up to 10 soldiers will respond, as well as any currently present.)


As you can tell, such a system would be really cool, and allow for tons of different scenarios, in any law enforcement zone. There are checks for race, clan, rank, and origin of the persons involved in a fray, room, item, and NPC numbers and keywords can be check, and levels of wanted status can be added or subtracted. If_checks allow for many variables of emotes and tell and say commands, as well as random or variable responses given certain situations.

Complicated? Yeh. But this was more about giving a number of examples in which varied responses would be cool.

[Dresan]

I don't know if I like the idea of soldiers popping out of nowhere to come to arrest you whic is how it works in GTA, especially in this game where there are numberous npc soldiers in every other room within cities.

I can see the idea working if there were alot less npc soldiers roaming the city street and instead there were more soldiers concentrated in certain areas, almost like check points. Whenever a crime is committed near an area, a certain amount of soliders proportionate to the crime would get sent out to investigate from a nearby check point. This would give people time to hide, run or finish the deed. This might also give people a chance to perhaps fight/kill the first couple of soliders sent to investigate before another larger wave of soldiers is sent/arrives to help.

[Narf]

I don't know if I like the idea of soldiers popping out of nowhere to come to arrest you whic is how it works in GTA, especially in this game where there are numberous npc soldiers in every other room within cities.

I can see the idea working if there were alot less npc soldiers roaming the city street and instead there were more soldiers concentrated in certain areas, almost like check points. Whenever a crime is committed near an area, a certain amount of soliders proportionate to the crime would get sent out to investigate from a nearby check point. This would give people time to hide, run or finish the deed. This might also give people a chance to perhaps fight/kill the first couple of soliders sent to investigate before another larger wave of soldiers is sent/arrives to help.

The physical NPC soldiers probably represent roughly 10% of the city's forces, and that's only because they started creating "unit" NPCs. Before that it was well under 1%. This means that there's a huge quantity of unseen VNPC guards roaming about, so it wouldn't be too odd from a realism standpoint that the world would start generating these.

That said, I like to think that VNPC guards patrol virtual portions of the city and arrest VNPC criminals.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't know if I like the idea of soldiers popping out of nowhere to come to arrest you whic is how it works in GTA, especially in this game where there are numberous npc soldiers in every other room within cities.

I can see the idea working if there were alot less npc soldiers roaming the city street and instead there were more soldiers concentrated in certain areas, almost like check points. Whenever a crime is committed near an area, a certain amount of soliders proportionate to the crime would get sent out to investigate from a nearby check point. This would give people time to hide, run or finish the deed. This might also give people a chance to perhaps fight/kill the first couple of soliders sent to investigate before another larger wave of soldiers is sent/arrives to help.

The physical NPC soldiers probably represent roughly 10% of the city's forces, and that's only because they started creating "unit" NPCs. Before that it was well under 1%. This means that there's a huge quantity of unseen VNPC guards roaming about, so it wouldn't be too odd from a realism standpoint that the world would start generating these.

That said, I like to think that VNPC guards patrol virtual portions of the city and arrest VNPC criminals.

Or they probably represent 50%... or 38% or any percent because we don't really know the size of either states military. As is there's about one NPC soldier out of every four rooms in Allanak, with roaming soldiers filling in the gaps almost entirely. I'd say their density is good how it is. Soldiers appearing out of nowhere seems ludicrous. Why have NPC soldiers enforce the code at all if its going to make them magically appear too. Realism be damned we definitely don't need every vnpc soldier to be represented by code.

[number13]

I remember a Tor Lady that would deliver particularly vicious emoted beat-downs of various low lifes around town.   I'd like a crime code system that would allow the PC to deal coded harm to a rinthi elf without the WTFPWN police arriving. On the flip side, it's dumb when southsiders go into the Rinth to beat on the locals without coded repercussions.  The Rinth could actually use a little crime code there, but nuanced such that it only applies to out-of-towners.

If Legionnaire/militia PC goes on rampage and starts slaughtering NPCs (or noble PCs even), it would be nice if the crime code kicked in after a certain amount of carnage.  (it's been known to happen!)

For each city, a character has a social status: based on race, whether or not they were born there, and what their rank/affiliations are.  Being a noble or militia/Legion gives you a huge bonus to social status in a city-state.  Being a Kuraci family member or high ranking Fist gives you a huge bonus in Luirs.

The difference between the social status of the aggressor and the victim is lineally interpolated across a scale of 0.1 to 3, which is multiplied by the crime severity.

Crime severity:
Stealing: .5
Assault: .75
Deadly Assault (Backstab, attacking with a poisoned weapon): 1
Rogue Magic in Allanak: 1
Killing: 1.5
Any Magic in Tuluk: 5 (no reduction possible)

(Crime severity * social difference) is added to your Naughty rating for the particular city-state. Naughty rating is reduced over time, but the higher your naughty rating, the slower the rate of reduction, up to zero reduction over time if your Naughty rating is maxed out.

Then you have a table like 7DS's that indicates the response of the city-state's soldiers.  For a first pass, it could be just a binary WANTED or NOT WANTED.

A noble pickpocket could flunk steal rolls against a rinthi elf all day long and never acquire a wanted flag.  A commoner pickpocket would have to be more careful -- too many flunked attempts against the rinthi elf in a period of time results the Naughty rating going above a threshold.

If a Tuluki elf came to Allanak  and backstabbed a noble, he would suffer a much greater response than if he stayed in his own city and backstabed half-elven NPCs.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Er, where are soldiers popping out of thin air? That's the reason I said "up to #", to indicate that up to # of soldier NPCs from surrounding rooms would respond.

[Reiloth]

Er, where are soldiers popping out of thin air? That's the reason I said "up to #", to indicate that up to # of soldier NPCs from surrounding rooms would respond.

Yeah, that's how I thought of it too.

The 'delay' I mention is basically (say) 30 seconds x Delay Rating. Depending on the severity of the crime, that delay rating goes up, or it goes down. Sometimes, it's inevitable. You assault someone on the streets without getting to a 'no-population' room like an apartment building or abandoned warehouse, you are wanted by the Soldiery. For how long also depends on what crime you did.

It should also depend what part of town you are in, at what time, and so on. As stated earlier, it seems the area is either 'populated' or 'not populated'. It would be cool (ideally) if entire areas were un-patrolled and lawless, ala the Rinth, other areas were semi-enforced (Longer delay on the crim-code to reflect lower patrols of soldiers), and other areas were heavily enforced (increased response time, delay is cut down).

When you make it about NPC soldiers that are physically patrolling the area around where you commit the crime, and planning a way to avoid, or run from, those specific soldiers -- It becomes much less of a waiting game (Hmm, might as well stay here hidden until my crime-code modifier wears off 3RL hours later), and more of an active "get away from the cops, double back, and hopefully they don't spot/catch me" game, which seems much more our speed as a player base.

The differential between you committing the crime, and you getting the hell out of dodge, would basically be increased from 'no difference' to 'some difference'. You fail a thievery check in a crowded area? You might get a wanted flag if you stick around, or if you aren't great at blending into crowds. But if you are, you can pretty easily avoid getting fingered for the crime.

If you're brawling in the street, or botching a population-zone assassination, you're going to have your delay to 'wanted by lots of soldiers' cut down pretty quickly, if not instantly. Your description will be passed around by the people that witnessed it, and it's continuous action, not a single 'illegal' action.

If you are wanted, and still on the street, you're basically a walking radar. An APB is put out with your description, and you are hauled in as per the code right now.

To relate this to magick -- If someone is casting magick in public or has magical effects in public, they should be near-instantly reported to the Templarate (especially in Tuluk). They should be dealt with in the way the crim-code works now, no questions asked.

I was just posing means to improve the current crime code -- As it stands, it sucks to have a thief wanted by every soldier in the city because they failed a pick-pocket attempt, for upwards of 3 RL hours.

[Nyr]

This is where all of that fun crim-code discussion can go.

[frankjacoby]

I like this, but for a different reason, you botch a steal attempt and the pc/npc didn't/couldn't report you, however, a different npc caught it virtually, instead of you knowing right away if you were caught, you have no idea.  You only know you're wanted when the military shows up, I always thought it was weird that it displays on your score if you are wanted or not, this is definitely something that should be hidden from you.

[a french mans shirt]

I for one like a more racist criminal system across the board, although being northern or southern, unless you're basing it on accent in a situation where you needn't necessarily talk, seems pretty easy to hide, even accidentally. OOCly that could lead to others learning your city of origin. ICly, a master criminal is more likely to be in a foreign state, but that isn't necessarily true for criminals of lesser standing, especially independents, whom this change in code would affect the most and the most often, if only they would actually line up in front of the target. I imagine, in general, criminals don't want to be working outside their home for too long, and the exceptions seem to me to be those which would stay for prolonged periods in the foreign region, and learn to adopt the local accent and fashion -because- they don't want to be mistaken for a foreigner.

I like the idea of breeds getting it the worst in this system-- just my opinion.

[X-D]

A lot of these ideas are good ideas...but man, what a true headache to code. Now, I know I know, Don't worry about that, let staff worry about that. But I do worry about such things...so I got to thinking.

How about more functionality to the hit command? Instead of only working in brawl coded areas, Hit got changed to work nearly everywhere (How exactly would of course depend on where you are at.) But let us say in Nak, In Nak hit can be used armed or unarmed (up to staff to have both)  Once engaged, it is real combat, but the code would stop you when somebody reached 49% of total HP...with some echo of course, this level is good enough because the loser knows they got beat, they have to go get healed, cannot just sit it off. Now, when somebody reached that level, combat stops, like I said and you cannot start again using hit, you get the same message brawling does "To continue, type kill, this will of course crime flag you."

After that is should be rather simple to adjust thresholds depending on race, clan, citizen of where, etc. For instance, A human nakki  commoner of house Borsail Goes against a Tuluki elf...Well, hit might allow that fight to go to 10% But same thing but the elf is rinthi, 20%, Nak citizen 35%...Indy human nak citizen verses clanned nak citizen 40%.

As to other crimes...I am good with a delay on you getting flagged...that seems rather simple to put in as well.

[Reiloth]

Yeah...I think 'nightmare to code' is definitely one of the main deterrents from looking at or touching the crime-code for Armageddon, at least from what i've seen of these kinds of threads in the past. But that doesn't mean we can't/shouldn't discuss idealisms for the system.

The crime-code as it stands is oblique at times and totalitarian most of the time. Pure and simple, it doesn't make logical sense that every soldier in a city-state would know you failed a pickpocket attempt, and try to arrest you, and failing that, kill you. It does make sense if you were a defiler, or public magicker in most cases, or even an assault transgressor. But crime in ArmageddonMUD seems to be a flag -- On or Off.

Even if there were some nuance between "Wanted" and "Not Wanted", or delays in-between toggling the wanted flag on or off. Or, if the wanted timer could tick down quicker if you are in a lawless area and evaded capture.

I think these kinds of updates (even small ones) would be attractive to veterans, and new players, alike. A reactive crime system is something that can be advertised on places like TMS and TMC, and might attract a whole new crowd. I know if I was trolling for new games and saw something like 'Dynamic Crime System', I would be intrigued.

[CodeMaster]

Part of why I like the current crim code is because it is simple to understand and roleplay around, but tough to beat.  If you plan your crime, you can probably get away with it - but it's not 100%.  The more complicated it becomes (and it will never be perfect), the harder it is to understand and use as a prop to roleplay around.

In fact, there are already are two ways to perform combat with respect to the crim code (brawling and true combat).  That's not too complicated a system, is it?  But their conflation leads to stuff like people accidentally using kick in the Gaj and getting cut to pieces by all guards in the vicinity, or borderline abusive situations like repeatedly using the brawl code on someone who is armed in self defense.

I like X-D's ideas on combat, because they're simple, but if something like that went in, I would simplify it further: no auto-disengage if someone gets too hurt.

As a possible alternative in the same vein, I might give every swing of your weapon a % chance of getting you wanted, maybe modified based on how much damage it does.  This way longer fights are more likely to end up getting both parties wanted; brief scuffles, not so much.  A successful backstab is probably going to get you wanted if it causes enough blood to spray, but if you flubbed it, not so much.  Moreover, the guy who's doing most of the damage (maybe his opponent disengaged, has nosave combat on, or isn't wielding deadly weapons) is more likely to get wanted.

I think stealing is okay where it is.  If you're someone who has any business stealing, you can figure out how the system works and play around it without too much grief.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd also disable the coded feature that causes the presence of PC law enforcement to automatically cause you to become wanted. This way, a PC soldier could choose whether or not they cared about the current infraction. Examples of when this would be nice are when a PC soldiers wants to watch a fight between two PCs of other clans, in a back-alley where the PC is holding bets on a knife-fight between a couple of breeds, etc.

Attacking a PC soldier should still cause you to automatically become wanted, of course, and a PC soldier could cause you to become wanted by using 'accuse'.

[X-D]

Well, when it comes to crime code, I do not much like the idea of anything being random.

[a french mans shirt]

What 7DV said. I feel like soldiers shouldn't care any unless they're that upstanding type, its their friend/ally, or things have gotten out of hand enough with the right variety of perp to make it look like the soldiers aren't doing their job.

I wondw how hard the following would be to code:

For a random 25% of soldiers in each city, a flag on turned on which causes those soldiers to act like they all do now: go and get that motherfucker. The rest simply act like nothing's going on, although something like murder gets everyone on you. Its not a final solution, I'm just a fan of short-term experiments when the wanted end result is not clear-cut. A little sloppiness would also make Luir's and Storm strictness seem more meaningful.

[QuillDipper]

For PC soldiers a nosave crimcode would be nice. That way they could wail on people or see a crime that don't care about without random breed being hauled off.

[Reiloth]

For PC soldiers a nosave crimcode would be nice. That way they could wail on people or see a crime that don't care about without random breed being hauled off.

+1

[Delirium]

What about a command for PC soldiers that sets them as "on" or "off" duty?

[QuillDipper]

Something in general for PC soldiers that turns off their insta-crimcoding abilities would be nice. No reason why every soldier in the city should be alerted because some Noble decided it'd be funny to force 'Rinth Rats to wrestle for his entertainment or because Sergeant Asshat wants his recruits to rough up some guy.

[Dresan]

Never mind.Its been a while since I played in the militia, now I remember how it works.


Yeah something like that would be useful.

[TheWanderer]

Crim-code's kinda wonky in general. Cities would be far scarier if NPCs were did away with entirely, and it was up to the Militia PCs to keep the peace.

It's unrealistic given player numbers and the supposed VNPC force, but hey, you can't fault a guy for dreamin'. I'm sure it's a dream that could be lived out in full once the Mud Community receives the long overdue hipster splurge of this next generation. ALL HAIL THE UPCOMING HIPSTERS! MAKIN' DREAMS A REALITY!