Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[Nyr]

While it's not live (as in, not an established change in the game yet--pending a few minor decisions and code implementation), the new documentation for shadow artists in Tuluk is now available for perusal and discussion.  It is titled "BETA" because these are not active documents (so you do not need to use them in-game yet).

Shadow Artists - BETA
Shadow Artist FAQ - BETA
Shadow Agent FAQ - BETA

[janeshephard]

A "what you know" section in the Tuluki RP or even in the FAQ would be nice.

Do commoners know about this? Is it something not discussed with foreigners? Or is this system only really known to Nobles and Templars who "recruit" talented individuals into this art.

EDIT:

Sorry to be so bold from the main page on Shadow Artists:

"The templarate acts as a broker, and will not reject a contract for any reasons other than the hiring party's lack of social status or their being unable to pay the established fee. "

I somehow see this rule being broken if its not in the interest of the Templar.

[Nyr]

This would be covered in the Tuluki RP doc as well as very briefly in the "What You Know" doc as well.  I didn't see any reason to change those temporarily though (since it's not live).

Commoners would know about this since they can both be agents as well as artists.

I am not sure why it would be forbidden to discuss it with foreigners, but I'm also not sure that any Tuluki would go out of their way to make sure every foreigner knows how this works.

[Molten Heart]

How shadow artists are discussed in polite conversation might be a good inclusion.  Are they viewed as public servants, tools used by the template to help up hold and maintain a "right" and "just" society.  Would this be a thin veneer or would some commoners legitimately believe this?  Maybe people think of them as necessary tools used to facilitate politics/business (and even personal vendettas).

[Nyr]

Maybe people think of them as necessary tools used to facilitate politics/business (and even personal vendettas).

Good points, Molten Heart, and we can definitely make sure that is elaborated on for discussion.  I think the piece I quoted from you is closest to how it is planned for implementation.

[Ourla]

This is exciting! It's the way I always thought it should work, double blind and dripping in money.  I like.

[Jherlen]

This looks really promising! I've got a couple of initial thoughts:

A link to the social caste system should probably be provided so there's no confusion. It should also be clarified what "higher social status" means. Is it simply to say that a commoner can't put a hit out on a Chosen? Or are we going to get into different levels of status within castes as well? Can a junior Chosen Lady put a contract out on the head of House Dasari? Can an apprentice bard put a contract on a master bard? Can a junior merchant of House Kadius put a contract on a senior agent of House Kurac? How does being somebody's partisan modify your social status, if at all? And if a templar rejects my contract because he says I'm not the right social status, what if I just go straight to another templar who accepts it?

I feel like the fewer "shalls" and "shalt nots" and "this always will happen" and "this will never happen" type statement the docs make, the stronger they'll be and the easier it will be to work with them.  Like janeshephard said, the docs shouldn't be so rigid as to not allow rules to be broken when it's in someone's interest. If there are too many rules around the system, and they're all rigid, you may wind up with different players/characters seeing things differently, and making judgement calls on who can contract who that other players or staff won't agree with, and then things could get ugly.

My suggestion: make the rules on social status very broad and only really enforcable in that commoners can't place hits on Chosen directly. And then say that templars have to honor contracts agreed to by other templars, but not every templar has to have the same standards on what contracts they'll accept vs. reject.

[Sayyadina]

Maybe people think of them as necessary tools used to facilitate politics/business (and even personal vendettas).

Good points, Molten Heart, and we can definitely make sure that is elaborated on for discussion.  I think the piece I quoted from you is closest to how it is planned for implementation.

I think the system might be viewed by Tulukis as a civilized, orderly, and efficient way of settling scores and resolving disputes within the city, and as a means to limit collateral damage.  "In Tuluk, you see, we're surgical and precise in how we tend to our vendettas, unlike the ugly messes they have in Allanak."  In this way, the documented licensing system would be like Kanly in the world of Dune (one of my personal favorite parts about that world!).

[LauraMars]

This looks really promising! I've got a couple of initial thoughts:

A link to the social caste system should probably be provided so there's no confusion. It should also be clarified what "higher social status" means. Is it simply to say that a commoner can't put a hit out on a Chosen? Or are we going to get into different levels of status within castes as well? Can a junior Chosen Lady put a contract out on the head of House Dasari? Can an apprentice bard put a contract on a master bard? Can a junior merchant of House Kadius put a contract on a senior agent of House Kurac? How does being somebody's partisan modify your social status, if at all? And if a templar rejects my contract because he says I'm not the right social status, what if I just go straight to another templar who accepts it?

I feel like the fewer "shalls" and "shalt nots" and "this always will happen" and "this will never happen" type statement the docs make, the stronger they'll be and the easier it will be to work with them.  Like janeshephard said, the docs shouldn't be so rigid as to not allow rules to be broken when it's in someone's interest. If there are too many rules around the system, and they're all rigid, you may wind up with different players/characters seeing things differently, and making judgement calls on who can contract who that other players or staff won't agree with, and then things could get ugly.

My suggestion: make the rules on social status very broad and only really enforcable in that commoners can't place hits on Chosen directly. And then say that templars have to honor contracts agreed to by other templars, but not every templar has to have the same standards on what contracts they'll accept vs. reject.

A long time ago, on the old website, there used to be a kind of grid or chart detailing where on the list a typical role would fall in the social ranking systems.  It had a few columns - merchant house employees, nobility, templarate, unaffiliated commoners, bards, etc - and where they fell in the caste system in relation to their peers and betters.

I feel like if that chart still exists (there was one for Allanak too), it'd be nice to see it on the new website.  It probably could use a revamp or two, but it would be very useful for people who wish to properly use Shadow Artists.

[Malken]

A long time ago, on the old website, there used to be a kind of grid or chart detailing where on the list a typical role would fall in the social ranking systems.  It had a few columns - merchant house employees, nobility, templarate, unaffiliated commoners, bards, etc - and where they fell in the caste system in relation to their peers and betters.

I feel like if that chart still exists (there was one for Allanak too), it'd be nice to see it on the new website.  It probably could use a revamp or two, but it would be very useful for people who wish to properly use Shadow Artists.

It's still around, I actually looked at it a couple of hours ago

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html

[manonfire]

Will this new system supplant the old one?

[LauraMars]

It's still around, I actually looked at it a couple of hours ago

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html

Yeah that's the one!  I think a chart like that captures the feel of political nuances more than simply saying "yeah, chosen are better than clanned merchants are better than nobody hunters."

[Blur]

I really like that there is more emphasis on caste and social status now.


Coincidentally, the only time I've ever been assassinated in Tuluk was as a legionnaire by another legionnaire. I guess that will no longer be possible since legionnaires can only be annoyed at best it seems. Its understandable given the circumstances, the templars wouldn't want their trained soldiers to get killed but still feel a bit unfortunate.  


I'm wondering if taking a contract against someone will become a bit of a gamble or a sure thing now? It seems to me, you pay the Templar and he handles the rest. So what happens to the contract if the artist fails? Do you have to pay again to have another attempt? Does the templar keep trying until the contract you paid for succeeds? What if you can pay but the Templar there aren't any PC shadow artist who can pull off the task with an remote chance of success?

[janeshephard]

Coincidentally, the only time I've ever been assassinated in Tuluk was as a legionnaire by another legionnaire. I guess that will no longer be possible since legionnaires can only be annoyed at best it seems. Its understandable given the circumstances, the templars wouldn't want their trained soldiers to get killed but still feel a bit unfortunate.  

If you could put out contracts on Legion you could kill the government's enforcers that way. Keeping them free from harm reinforces their special status.

I'm wondering if taking a contract against someone will become a bit of a gamble or a sure thing now? It seems to me, you pay the Templar and he handles the rest. So what happens to the contract if the artist fails? Do you have to pay again to have another attempt? Does the templar keep trying until the contract you paid for succeeds? What if you can pay but the Templar there aren't any PC shadow artist who can pull off the task with an remote chance of success?

And what happens if you take out a contract on the Templar's new pet/partisan? Paperwork goes missing? Is redirected against you? Oh, sure, the contract terms are correct, Mr. Amos. Why, I'll have it filed and notarized immediately. Don't you worry! Mwhahaha.

[Jherlen]

A chart is definitely better than no chart, but if social rank to that detail is going to be used to determine who can contract against who... I dunno. It feels like it could be a straight jacket.

The thing about social influence and power politics is that the titles don't reflect the reality, and that's true in Zalanthas more than ever. Even in the same column on that chart I can think of a lot of instances where a do-nothing lazearound with a higher title probably has had less actual political clout than an up-and-comer. Is anyone worried that a social chart like this that says person A is untouchable by person B because of titles, even when in game reality might reflect otherwise, might get in the way of plots?

If things were left up to the (PC) templars' discretion, and they had a wide latitude to make the call, I'd be happy as a clam. That brings some of the C in MCB back into Tuluk, too.

[Molten Heart]

Will this new system supplant the old one?

IIRC this system is basically the same as the old (except with the double blind method of hiring artists which was always an option but now always the case), and it's documented much better.

The double blind method seems less messy and more mysterious, not to mention more useful for political machinations.

[Molten Heart]

Coincidentally, the only time I've ever been assassinated in Tuluk was as a legionnaire by another legionnaire. I guess that will no longer be possible since legionnaires can only be annoyed at best it seems. Its understandable given the circumstances, the templars wouldn't want their trained soldiers to get killed but still feel a bit unfortunate.  

If you could put out contracts on Legion you could kill the government's enforcers that way. Keeping them free from harm reinforces their special status.

Considering that the legionnarie's work for the templarate, I would think that maybe it wasn't a normal contract.  So this would be outside of the normal system, or as an illegal assassination.  While not knowing the details, it's possible a templar ordered this.  At least that seems like something that'd happen.  I know some templars don't mind getting blood on their hands but some may to keep their hands clean, while keeping their tools sharp.  ;-)

I'm wondering if taking a contract against someone will become a bit of a gamble or a sure thing now? It seems to me, you pay the Templar and he handles the rest. So what happens to the contract if the artist fails? Do you have to pay again to have another attempt? Does the templar keep trying until the contract you paid for succeeds? What if you can pay but the Templar there aren't any PC shadow artist who can pull off the task with an remote chance of success?

And what happens if you take out a contract on the Templar's new pet/partisan? Paperwork goes missing? Is redirected against you? Oh, sure, the contract terms are correct, Mr. Amos. Why, I'll have it filed and notarized immediately. Don't you worry! Mwhahaha.

While partisans aren't exempt from the law, I think it would depend on politics to determine how that would go.  It would depend on which templar one is inquiring with about the contract and their relationship to the templar/partisan in question.  But really, this  probably true in some degree with all shadow artist contract someone applies for.

[Taven]

Let me start by saying that I'm not really sure how the present system works. It's a mystery to me, overall. However...

I think that the "you can never refuse a contract" thing would make me a lot less likely to ever play a shadow artist. If someone decides to take out a contract on your friend or your lover, you're the person who is most easily able to kill them. You can't say no. Your friends and lovers must thus be of higher social standing then everyone else, and still not annoy any of the Chosen or Faithful. I suppose you could only make friends and lovers with Legionnaires.

Can a shadow artist even be lifesworn to a Chosen House? The docs all talk about "patrons". If you're a journeyman shadow artist who wants to work for a House, you should never aspire to more, because you might have to kill the people you work for. Or... They might kill you, since you could now be a tool against them. I don't know, it feels to me like you could never, ever really trust any shadow artist (be you an employer or a friend/lover). Furthermore, why would you want to patron a shadow artist? You can't hire your own shadow artist for shadow artist things anyway. The Faithful could literally hire anyone to do your task. So... Why pour in all that effort?

Finally, why is the example of death a bard whose song you don't want to hear? It gives the impression that killing off bards because they sing a song you don't like is commonplace.

[HavokBlue]

This is really neat, but what I'm curious about is how new PCs, for example, fit into this. If I wanted to play a shadow artist, would I immediately register in game, or is this something I would do after time spent training and practicing in game?

What I'm getting at is: Are shadow artists intended to be already proficient sneaky sneaks, or do they range from novice burglar to master assassin?

[Nyr]

Sorry to be so bold from the main page on Shadow Artists:

"The templarate acts as a broker, and will not reject a contract for any reasons other than the hiring party's lack of social status or their being unable to pay the established fee. "

I somehow see this rule being broken if its not in the interest of the Templar.

No need to worry about being so bold!  I wouldn't have put that there if it wasn't going to be the case.  We've actually been talking these over with the PC templars for the past month.  They'll have their own set of documentation governing what they can do with this, and the general public docs (these) are exactly right:  templars will be above the system, outside of the system, and brokering the system.  Their task is not to manipulate, at least not in THIS area.

A link to the social caste system should probably be provided so there's no confusion. It should also be clarified what "higher social status" means. Is it simply to say that a commoner can't put a hit out on a Chosen?

A commoner can't go to a templar and put a hit out on a Chosen, no.
A commoner could go to another Chosen (perhaps a rival to that noble?) and after the appropriate amount of pleasantries, they can put out feelers about whether or not the

Or are we going to get into different levels of status within castes as well? Can a junior Chosen Lady put a contract out on the head of House Dasari?  Can an apprentice bard put a contract on a master bard? Can a junior merchant of House Kadius put a contract on a senior agent of House Kurac?

To a large extent, yes, we are prepared to move into different levels of status within castes as well.  Some have pointed out the old caste chart.  We'd love to move it to the new website, but we do not presently have a way to display tables like that.  I will be working with Morgenes to come up with a way to display it.  There are some things that need to be consolidated and clarified.  There are other things that need to be stripped out entirely and updated.  Is the chart format the best way to display this?  Not sure, if you have a better idea that works with our current format for webpages, please let us know.

To answer specifically:
Junior Chosen Lady < Head of House, but Head of House is = to Head of House.  Junior Chosen Lady should find a Head of House that is happy to help, for a "price"...
Apprentice bard < Masterbard, but Masterbard is = to Masterbard (and noble is > Masterbard, too).  Apprentice bard should find someone of the appropriate rank that is happy to help, for a "price"...
Junior Merchant of House Kadius < Senior Agent of House Kurac, but Senior Agent of House Kadius is fairly = to Senior Agent of House Kurac (and nobles are > than that too).  Junior Merchant should find someone of the appropriate rank that is happy to help, for a "price"...

How does being somebody's partisan modify your social status, if at all?

In the context of general social status in Tuluk in history, being the partisan of someone of influence raises your status more than someone that is not a partisan of someone of influence.  It's a soft boost, not a clear-cut one.  Maybe that needs to be better defined.
In the context of contracts, the more high in social status a patron is, the farther their influence goes (in the most base ways, it means "they can get more folks killed).

And if a templar rejects my contract because he says I'm not the right social status, what if I just go straight to another templar who accepts it?

You will only be rejected for lack of social status or being unable to pay for the cost of an artist...period.  There's no going to another templar to have them do it; you have to get a patron that can do it or not do it at all.

I feel like the fewer "shalls" and "shalt nots" and "this always will happen" and "this will never happen" type statement the docs make, the stronger they'll be and the easier it will be to work with them.  Like janeshephard said, the docs shouldn't be so rigid as to not allow rules to be broken when it's in someone's interest. If there are too many rules around the system, and they're all rigid, you may wind up with different players/characters seeing things differently, and making judgement calls on who can contract who that other players or staff won't agree with, and then things could get ugly.

That's why templars have a separate set of documentation that governs how they broker this system.  In general I agree with you but I'd rather make it clear in this case so that it becomes part of the culture.

If you're contracting out to have someone killed, you don't get to find out who's doing it unless they work for you and you want them to do it.  Do you have suspicions?  Sure.  Are you reasonably sure you know who got picked?  You might, if you've got a good information network going.  Do you mention that?  Nope, you really shouldn't!  That'll get you in trouble.
If you're contracted out to have someone killed, you don't get to find out who's hiring you unless you work for them.  Do you have suspicions?  Probably.  Are you reasonable sure you know why this is being done?  You might, if you're paying attention.  Do you say anything about it?  Nope, you really shouldn't!  That'll get you in trouble.

It doesn't mean that people won't talk, but the wording is meant to imply that you shouldn't...and if you do, you're going to face some problems.

My suggestion: make the rules on social status very broad and only really enforcable in that commoners can't place hits on Chosen directly. And then say that templars have to honor contracts agreed to by other templars, but not every templar has to have the same standards on what contracts they'll accept vs. reject.

That latter part might be in something just for templars.

Will this new system supplant the old one?

Yes, once it is live and "occurs" IC, it will supplant the old one.

I'm wondering if taking a contract against someone will become a bit of a gamble or a sure thing now? It seems to me, you pay the Templar and he handles the rest. So what happens to the contract if the artist fails? Do you have to pay again to have another attempt? Does the templar keep trying until the contract you paid for succeeds? What if you can pay but the Templar there aren't any PC shadow artist who can pull off the task with an remote chance of success?

That's ready for the templar-side docs but probably needs to be available for the agent as well.  An excerpt:

Being awarded and pursuing a contract

• Scenario 1:  A templar meets with Amos to let him know he has a contract available.  He must kill Talia, a burgeoning merchant that Salarr wants out of the picture...Salarr also wants the body gone, for whatever reason, leaving no traces.  Amos accepts the contract and gets half of his cut of the payment up front.  Amos kills Talia and does it perfectly, the body is dealt with, he doesn't get caught.  He gets his payment.
• Scenario 2:  Amos kills Talia, but fails to deal with the body properly (or he is caught or his involvement is discovered).  The templarate (in meeting with him afterwards) will punish him.  He will not get the rest of his payment.  The agent gets a quarter of their fee back because the contract WAS completed, just not to specifications.
• Scenario 3:  Amos fails to kill Talia and botches it, but not too terribly.  That's bad enough, so perhaps the templarate inks him as an incompetent assassin and refuses to give him more contracts.  He pays back the 'sid he was paid and he will be dealt with in some fashion.  The original person paying for the contract is paid half back.  The Templarate keeps their cut.
• Scenario 4:  Amos fails to kill Talia and botches it horribly; practically everyone has heard about it.  The templarate disappears Amos.  The original person paying for the contract is paid half back.  The templarate keeps their cut.
• Scenario 5:  Amos fails to kill Talia.  Talia kills Amos.  The templarate pays (out of pocket) half of the sid to the original contractor.   The templarate keeps no cut.

Just an idea of how that might work.  Honestly in Scenario 5, the Templarate should pay Talia for saving them the trouble.

[Barzalene]

A chart is definitely better than no chart, but if social rank to that detail is going to be used to determine who can contract against who... I dunno. It feels like it could be a straight jacket.

The thing about social influence and power politics is that the titles don't reflect the reality, and that's true in Zalanthas more than ever. Even in the same column on that chart I can think of a lot of instances where a do-nothing lazearound with a higher title probably has had less actual political clout than an up-and-comer. Is anyone worried that a social chart like this that says person A is untouchable by person B because of titles, even when in game reality might reflect otherwise, might get in the way of plots?

If things were left up to the (PC) templars' discretion, and they had a wide latitude to make the call, I'd be happy as a clam. That brings some of the C in MCB back into Tuluk, too.

If an up and comer has clout but no standing an option is to involve someone with standing. (This may be so obvious as to go without saying. I'm doing a drive by posting from work. It won't always work of course but if you don't have the power to get it done the chart is right after all. )

[slvrmoontiger]

A long time ago, on the old website, there used to be a kind of grid or chart detailing where on the list a typical role would fall in the social ranking systems.  It had a few columns - merchant house employees, nobility, templarate, unaffiliated commoners, bards, etc - and where they fell in the caste system in relation to their peers and betters.

I feel like if that chart still exists (there was one for Allanak too), it'd be nice to see it on the new website.  It probably could use a revamp or two, but it would be very useful for people who wish to properly use Shadow Artists.

It's still around, I actually looked at it a couple of hours ago

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html

Can we get an update on social caste based on this. However, I'm a bit confused. An independent hunter, for example would be considered at the same caste as a skilled slave. That's a bit shocking.

[Nyr]

Gotta go for now but I'll get to this later.  One more thing.

And what happens if you take out a contract on the Templar's new pet/partisan? Paperwork goes missing? Is redirected against you? Oh, sure, the contract terms are correct, Mr. Amos. Why, I'll have it filed and notarized immediately. Don't you worry! Mwhahaha.

I guess Templars better not have pets or partisans they aren't willing to lose, eh?

I think that the "you can never refuse a contract" thing would make me a lot less likely to ever play a shadow artist. If someone decides to take out a contract on your friend or your lover, you're the person who is most easily able to kill them. You can't say no. Your friends and lovers must thus be of higher social standing then everyone else, and still not annoy any of the Chosen or Faithful. I suppose you could only make friends and lovers with Legionnaires.

If you choose--voluntarily--to play a shadow artist, this is what you have to deal with.  No one is forcing you to play a shadow artist that is an assassin, but if you do, you have to be okay with the idea that you might well have to betray/kill someone you care about for the sake of a contract.  This game is about murder, corruption, and betrayal; if you don't want to be doing that, definitely stay out of this kind of role.

You could also just be an artist that doesn't kill people.

Can a shadow artist even be lifesworn to a Chosen House?

Sure.  They just won't ever be a master unless they hide that fact from their House, but that'd never happen...right?

The docs all talk about "patrons". If you're a journeyman shadow artist who wants to work for a House, you should never aspire to more, because you might have to kill the people you work for.

Unless you want to.

Or... They might kill you, since you could now be a tool against them.

Yep.

I don't know, it feels to me like you could never, ever really trust any shadow artist (be you an employer or a friend/lover). Furthermore, why would you want to patron a shadow artist?

Because you'd be able to use them for contracts if you wanted to do so.

You can't hire your own shadow artist for shadow artist things anyway.

You absolutely can.  It says so.

The Faithful could literally hire anyone to do your task.

Not if you want to use one of your artists.

So... Why pour in all that effort?

See above!

Finally, why is the example of death a bard whose song you don't want to hear? It gives the impression that killing off bards because they sing a song you don't like is commonplace.

...that's not intended to be an example of death, I was thinking more of poisoning a bard with something that would keep them from performing rather than something that would keep them from living.  Maybe it can be made more clear.  

THIS SYSTEM IS NOT JUST FOR KILLING PEOPLE, IT'S FOR LOTS OF STUFF, ALL HAVING TO DO WITH SENDING A MESSAGE.

There!  

[manonfire]

Will this new system supplant the old one?

IIRC this system is basically the same as the old (except with the double blind method of hiring artists which was always an option but now always the case), and it's documented much better.

Not the way I interpret it, though I could be completely mistaken.

Currently, a thieves license is simply a way to say to the templars "Hi, I'm a thief/burglar. I'm going to be robbing people blind. I'd like your blessing to do so, and in return I promise to do my best not to be completely abysmal at it. I'm in no way required to take contracts from anyone unless I wish to do so."

The way I'm reading this, registering as a shadow artist is basically becoming a private contractor to the citizens of Tuluk, and not every criminal is interested in doing that.

When the current system goes away and is replaced with this, will the thieves/burglars/assassins that choose not to partake in it be treated the way unlicensed criminals are now?

[Nyr]

A long time ago, on the old website, there used to be a kind of grid or chart detailing where on the list a typical role would fall in the social ranking systems.  It had a few columns - merchant house employees, nobility, templarate, unaffiliated commoners, bards, etc - and where they fell in the caste system in relation to their peers and betters.

I feel like if that chart still exists (there was one for Allanak too), it'd be nice to see it on the new website.  It probably could use a revamp or two, but it would be very useful for people who wish to properly use Shadow Artists.

It's still around, I actually looked at it a couple of hours ago

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html

Can we get an update on social caste based on this. However, I'm a bit confused. An independent hunter, for example would be considered at the same caste as a skilled slave. That's a bit shocking.

That is actually close to correct. A skilled slave has more worth than an independent hunter.