IG History

[LoD]

AFAIK ->

History started here:

     628
    The armies of the city-states of Allanak and Tuluk clash at Wyntek Harzen, east of the Red Desert. The battle is short and inconclusive. During the war, a black fortress is discovered in the sands. It is believed to be the home of Luir Dragonsthrall, last living servant of the Dragon.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi

Not that these really depict anything historical, and I think they are mostly throwbacks to the people that were around back in that time, but the names mentioned in the following history excerpts were actual clans that existed in the original Armageddon that had levels, tell, who, names vs. sdescs, and all that jazz.

c.290
The powerful chieftain Quintus Tektolnes conquers and unites the tribes at Vrun Driath into a small kingdom. The tribes called Doombringer, Tan-Muark, and Shadow are among the conquered.

c.400
A hitherto unknown warrior named Muk Utep sacks the twelve tribes at Gol Krathu with an army of terrible barbarians out of the northwest. The tribes called the Elves of Mallok and the Twin Warlocks are among the conquered. The city-state of Tuluk begins to rise under Utep the Sun King.

As far as the debate between having a completely PC-created history and starting environment vs. one that comes with a fair amount of cultural and environmental details, here's my take.

I'm in favor of systems that provide a stable and consistent backdrop for the players while they create their plans, plots, and stories.  The fact that certain aspects of the game world have rarely changed over time (i.e. Great Merchant Houses, City-States, Government Systems) have provided me with a great sense of comfort and ease, especially when creating a character background.  I don't have to worry so much if a certain organization, government position, or city-state still exists.

Having led many completely PC-created organizations and plots, I know full well how easily they crumble apart when the leader PC dies, retires, or stops playing.  This type of collapse can be devastating in an environment that depends upon them to properly represent a portion of the environment, such as the government or the sole source provider of weapons to a settlement.  Between the cracks and crevices of our fragile building block empires, there must exist the foundation that holds everything up when our plans come crashing down around our heads.  It's a layer that supports our PC endeavors and holds everything together through the cyclical ebb and flow of the player base as they move from organization to organization, city to city, role to role.

And I'm hopeful that such a system will continue to exist in Arm 2.0, allowing us the same measure of immersion, stability and consistency from Day 1 that we will feel all the way at Year 10.

-LoD

[jcljules]

emote gives a standing ovation.

[psionic fungus]

Let player-characters have whatever level of historical influence their actions entitle them to, but let the world keep turning, too. Everyone seems to be rattling on about player-driven content on the GDB lately, but I don't think many of you would actually enjoy the consequences of a purely PC-led world. Events need to also come from 'the environment' - the setting itself and its dramatis personae.

I don't think you're really understanding what some, like myself, are asking for when they ask for PvP or player-driven content.  I'm not saying that NPCs or vNPCs should be ignored... I'm saying that instead of having NPC Gith attack Allanak, there could be a plot where (through staff facilitation) multiple PC groups are told about some artifact the Gith have recovered, and they then begin to compete to see who can get said artifact back.  Use NPCs, use the game-world, but center the plots around PC groups...  When one entire side of a conflict has no PCs... That's the issue.  If it's one or two special-apped PCs and against the world... That's not a whole lot better.  I vastly prefer conflict when it is between two or more PC groups.

This doesn't mean I want PCs to be the end all be all.  It means that I want plots that are dynamic, with more than one possible "ending", and the ability for PCs to fairly easily join any side of the conflict.

[Southie]

I'm saying that instead of having NPC Gith attack Allanak, there could be a plot where (through staff facilitation) multiple PC groups are told about some artifact the Gith have recovered, and they then begin to compete to see who can get said artifact back.  Use NPCs, use the game-world, but center the plots around PC groups...  When one entire side of a conflict has no PCs... That's the issue.  If it's one or two special-apped PCs and against the world... That's not a whole lot better.  I vastly prefer conflict when it is between two or more PC groups.

This doesn't mean I want PCs to be the end all be all.  It means that I want plots that are dynamic, with more than one possible "ending", and the ability for PCs to fairly easily join any side of the conflict.

Actually, something very close to this did indeed happen in the gith wars. The second stage of it was very heavily player-driven, and I know there were PCs on multiple "sides". I can't go into details, it's unfortunately a Find Out IC thing.

For the record, I think both ways (staff-driven and player-driven) have their own advantages and disadvantages, and both are enjoyable.

[NoteworthyFellow]

For the record, I think both ways (staff-driven and player-driven) have their own advantages and disadvantages, and both are enjoyable.

Yep.

[psionic fungus]

The "second part of the Gith Wars", or whatever, was not the NPC invasion (a result of it, yes)...

The invasion itself was very one-sided, PCs vs NPCs.  Definitely not the way I like to see things. There was no way the Gith were going to destroy Allanak, the 'Rinth, breech a wall, or do anything that wasn't already decided by the Staff.  The players had no real sway in anything that happened. It was a pre-determined plot, mucg like watching the cut-scene in a game, to me... And that is what I don't like.  It's nice that more happened after that... But I would prefer to see the Gith opened as a PC race for a few months before they try to invade Allanak, and I think there should be more than one possible outcome of the raid...  Really, I don't like having any intelligent/humanoid group that has no PCs, it just seems too "us vs them" or black and white...

Of course, I'm not saying that there weren't some PvP and/or dynamic elements in the Gith Invasion... I'm just saying that the major aspects were not PvP and did not seem dynamic, and I find much more enjoyment in plots that are.

[Gimfalisette]

The players had no real sway in anything that happened. It was a pre-determined plot, mucg like watching the cut-scene in a game, to me... And that is what I don't like.  It's nice that more happened after that... But I would prefer to see the Gith opened as a PC race for a few months before they try to invade Allanak, and I think there should be more than one possible outcome of the raid...  Really, I don't like having any intelligent/humanoid group that has no PCs, it just seems too "us vs them" or black and white...

Of course, I'm not saying that there weren't some PvP and/or dynamic elements in the Gith Invasion... I'm just saying that the major aspects were not PvP and did not seem dynamic, and I find much more enjoyment in plots that are.

Having been there in the thick of it, it definitely seems to me like some critical changes in Allanak happened due to player action (or inaction) during the gith invasion and were not pre-decided. There were important spots that were left undefended by PCs and were subsequently destroyed, for example. And I wouldn't be surprised that if the PCs had not planned and amassed such a good defense (by PCs, NPCs, and VNPCs all together), the city really could have gone down or been much more destroyed than it was.

[Rahnevyn]

From reading the plotline threads, I can tell you that in fact there were multiple possible outcomes for the invasion, and that PC actions determined what happened. What you saw happen was not set in stone before the RPT even began; it wasn't a "cutscene". There were variables depending on what PCs defended where, how many defenders were in certain areas, etc. It may not seem 'dynamic' because you only get to see what did happen, not all the possibilities that didn't.  There was even building done in advance for some outcomes that did not come to pass.

The event wasn't scripted like a play, I'd say it was more laid out as a series of decisions "If this happens, then this happens; else that happens."

I see what you're saying that we could have had the conflict between two PC groups (Copper War style), but in this case, it wasn't... and it still worked out pretty well.

[Gimfalisette]

That's just really awesome to know, Rahnevyn. It felt that way to me at the time--as a PC deeply involved in the invasion coming, it felt like we really needed to be on our game to prevent really terrible things (terrible from our PCs' perspectives, anyways ). I'm so glad to know it was true.

[Nyr]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,24087.new.html#new

More IC history, largely done by players.  Hope you enjoy this particular thread, I plan to do at least one or two more about this particular plotline.

[Gimfalisette]

Just read that, good stuff, Nyr. Go dorfs!

[AmandaGreathouse]

Oh hells yes! I love that thread. I always find it awesome when I new one comes out. Especially the new one, thanks for posting it.

[buzz]

I think a few people misunderstood the point I was trying to make in my previous reply.  I saw a few responses that indicated a preference for Immortal run plots rather than player run plots.  I'm going to address that a bit later, but what I meant when I said that players should have more of an influence on the world is in static things, rather than fluid plots.

Maybe some of you don't have the same perspective on this that I do.  When I started playing Arm, it was a different game, one that many of you probably wouldn't recognize.  One fellow said he wanted to enter into a "fully detailed world from the start, just like 1.Arm" if you can allow me to paraphrase what he said.  How do you think said 1.Arm became fully detailed?  Years, and years of staff and player contributions.  I, for one, look forward, if I may re-use my painter's analogy, to a clean canvas onto which we can all paint our vision.  Details which a builder can't even imagine at this stage.  Things for players to envision, flesh out, perhaps document, or perhaps just pass down orally through tradition.  Flavor that's not going to be developed until we get into the world and actually begin playing within it.  My caution was only for over-detailing: I certainly don't want an un-detailed, bland world.  Leaving some room for players to explore the culture can't hurt, though.  Players over time will inevitably think of things that the builder never intended, but which fit into the culture and the world.  Those are the contributions we make that makes the game so rich and detailed.

As for plots, I'm not sure anyone will disagree that the broad, wide-reaching plots can only be immortal run, due to their nature.  The players just don't know everything that's going on.  However, influential PCs can and should be able to affect the world in some ways, if they're in a position of power to do so.  Certainly it's rare: even in 1.Arm I can count on one hand the number of PCs I've interacted with that had enough clout to manufacture a game-changing plot on their own (and even then, there's probably some sort of immortal action required.)  We shouldn't discount that from happening in 2.Arm, nor do I think that is being suggested.

[Desertman]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

[LoD]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

While it may have begun as a PC operated mercenary group, if we're giving props were props are due, Krrx and Tlaloc also deserve a good portion of the praise for their management of the clan and especially Krrx's layout design of the Allanaki compound.  One can take lessons with how functional, yet, small scale the T'zai-Byn compound is and how well it manages to maintain and support the atmosphere created there.

-LoD

[musashi]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

And I think I recall reading somewhere that now a days ... a PC can not gain a leadership position higher than a Sgt in that clan now?

Or ... maybe it was something like: The highest ranking Byn PC I've ever seen was a Lt. No PC's are allowed to gain too much rank in a clan ... or something like that.

I dunno, could have sworn I read that somewhere.

[Desertman]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

While it may have begun as a PC operated mercenary group, if we're giving props were props are due, Krrx and Tlaloc also deserve a good portion of the praise for their management of the clan and especially Krrx's layout design of the Allanaki compound.  One can take lessons with how functional, yet, small scale the T'zai-Byn compound is and how well it manages to maintain and support the atmosphere created there.

-LoD

To quote Tlalock..."The Byn runs like a well oiled machine when you have the right PC leaders in charge. It basically runs on auto-pilot. We need to run all clans this way".

It bothers me noone ever took his advice.

[Tisiphone]

To quote Tlaloc..."The Byn runs like a well oiled machine when you have the right PC leaders in charge. It basically runs on auto-pilot. We need to run all clans this way".

It bothers me no-one ever took his advice.

I agree, but the bolded part is the problem. A problem I believe can be addressed, but a problem nonetheless.

[Desertman]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

And I think I recall reading somewhere that now a days ... a PC can not gain a leadership position higher than a Sgt in that clan now?

Or ... maybe it was something like: The highest ranking Byn PC I've ever seen was a Lt. No PC's are allowed to gain too much rank in a clan ... or something like that.

I dunno, could have sworn I read that somewhere.

I have personally never witnessed a PC gain above Lieutenant rank. Which is considerable.

Because of the way the Byn is set up, for all apparent purposes if you are a Lieutenant you may as well be the Commander.

It wouldnt surprise me to see even the position of Commander within grasp of a PC in this particular clan though.

This clan is already ran so much by the pc's themselves without the need for IMM assistance or intervention that the difference it would make would likely be so minimal as to not be noticed. Unless the PC in question did something ass'ish...but that PC would probably never earn the promotion anyways.

If you are the ONLY Byn Sergeant, even this rank is very similar in many ways to being your clan IMM. The power is very much in the hands of the PC's in this clan, and its frickin' wonderful. From speaking with IMM's who have run this clan in the past its not nearly as much stress to IMM over the Byn regardless of the fact it has a large playerbase.

Simply put...the Byn setup is a model for other clans.

[Desertman]

To quote Tlaloc..."The Byn runs like a well oiled machine when you have the right PC leaders in charge. It basically runs on auto-pilot. We need to run all clans this way".

It bothers me no-one ever took his advice.

I agree, but the bolded part is the problem. A problem I believe can be addressed, but a problem nonetheless.

Because of the Byn structure...those leaders are typically weeded out by the other players themselves, it usually isnt even an IMM concern.

Edited to add: I have done a little "weeding" in this particular clan...I'm sure I'm not the only one. Bad leaders dont make it very long here.

[Morrolan]

I always had great help from the Byn Imms.  I wish my old computer had not been lost by Dell, because somewhere I had the list of PCs who were members under Sgt. Marook and Lt. Akasha at the same time as me.  Sgt. Marook's unit had about fifteen members at one time.

From what I could see, what the Imms do for the Byn is provide grease (and grit!) for plots and contracts, and give the clan a bump when it's lost all leadership.

Maybe someday, before this is over, I'll revisit those hallowed halls.

Morrolan

[Desertman]

I always had great help from the Byn Imms.  I wish my old computer had not been lost by Dell, because somewhere I had the list of PCs who were members under Sgt. Marook and Lt. Akasha at the same time as me.  Sgt. Marook's unit had about fifteen members at one time.

From what I could see, what the Imms do for the Byn is provide grease (and grit!) for plots and contracts, and give the clan a bump when it's lost all leadership.

Maybe someday, before this is over, I'll revisit those hallowed halls.

Morrolan

Yup, what I like about Byn IMM's is they let the IC leaders actually lead. They are just there to bump things along should the NEED ever arise. Which is very seldom does, barring the entire annihilation of a unit due to "enter catastrophe of choice".

In most other clans the IMM's lead, and dictate what they want done down to PC leaders.

In the Byn when they say you are a leader, you are leading.

[Twilight]

I have to agree with LoD, the Byn's current structure, how it was redesigned, is awesome.  It is completely, completely different.

My highest rank in the Byn with a character was Tokhar, or was it Dohkar?  I can never remember which was which.  I had lots of knots.  It took approximately 3 weeks to get them from my entry into the clan.  I can't even verbally express how much better things are now.

[mansa]

Sargax was a character that got higher than "lieutenant" in his respective clan.

Ysania was the house head of her clan she created.

Pearl was also the head of her clan she created.

All three characters survived for over 2+ years of real life time.

[RogueGunslinger]

i play human pickpocket or burglars.

Is that you you little shit?